December 3, 2024 • 47 mins
Think keeping ants as pets sounds strange? You might be surprised.
Ant keeping is one of the fastest-growing pet hobbies in the world, and it’s easy to see why. These tiny creatures are incredibly social, surprisingly low maintenance, and full of behaviors that will blow your mind.
In this episode, I talk with Zachary Liu, a myrmecologist from McGill University and founder of Canada Ant Colony. We explore what makes ants such fascinating animals and how to get started if you’re curious about adding a colony to your home.
BY THE TIME YOU FINISH LISTENING, YOU’LL DISCOVER:
- How to start your first ant habitat and which species are beginner-friendly
- Why ant colonies are often compared to fish tanks and what makes them unique
- Tips for gifting ant colonies responsibly and getting kids involved in a fun, educational hobby
Whether you’re already a seasoned pet owner or just curious about unusual animals, this episode will open your eyes to an entirely different kind of pet experience.
LEARN MORE ABOUT ZACHARY LIU:
- Canada Ant Colony – Zach’s ant supply business
- Global Ant Nursery Project – Community resource for finding local ant species
P.S. You might hear us refer to the show as Starlight Pet Talk in this episode—that was our original name. The show has since evolved, and while the name changed, the mission remains the same. You’re in the right place.
We'll be back with new episodes August 10!
Love the show? Please share it with another pet parent who wants less chaos and more clarity. Please leave a 5-star review to help others find real-life, judgment-free advice.
🎧Get your free guide: 10 Tips for Bonding With Your Pet
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Big pet challenges we help pet parents solve include: puppy training, cat behavior, pet budgeting, stress-free vet visits, solutions for multi-pet households, and more.
Contact: Amy@petparenthotline.com
©Ⓟ 2025 by Amy Castro.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ever thought about keeping ants as pets?
No, seriously.
Even if you're not an insectenthusiast, what you're about to
hear in this episode couldchange your mind about these
tiny six-legged masterminds.
From surprising socialbehaviors to eco-friendly
practices, the fascinating worldof ants might just offer you a
new perspective on these busylittle buggers.
(00:20):
Stay tuned.
You're listening to StarlightPet Talk, a podcast for pet
parents who want the best petcare advice from cat experts,
dog trainers, veterinarians andother top pet professionals who
will help you live your verybest life with your pets.
Welcome to Starlight Pet Talk.
(00:41):
I'm your host, amy Castro, andtoday I am thrilled to welcome
Zachary Liu, a myrmecologistfrom McGill University, who is
dedicated to making science funand accessible to everyone For
everyone.
Together, we're going toexplore the fascinating world of
(01:03):
ants, which I never thought.
I would even say those wordstogether fascinating and ants
but I am very intrigued now fromdoing my research so, from
their complex behaviors to whyant keeping has become one of
the fastest growing hobbiesaround.
So, zach, thank you for beinghere and for reaching out to be
on the show, because I probablynever would have done it the
other way around.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
No worries on the show, because I probably never
would have done it the other wayaround.
No worries, I think ant keepingjust as a whole, it's something
that you wouldn't think is sointeresting until you actually
look into it, right?
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Yeah, exactly.
So I noticed on your.
I was looking on your websiteand I'm assuming that cute
little boy that has thebutterfly in his hand is you,
that's me.
Okay, so obviously you've beena I wouldn't even say it's a bug
guy, right Cause that would bethe wrong term but how did you
get involved in ants,butterflies, things like that?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yeah, so it's actually an interesting story
and it depends how far back youwant to go.
But my mom was from like a veryrural part of Southern China.
Like this is somewhere where,like every single time I go back
, there's like little endangeredspecies.
I'll notice like oh, I've seenthis in a book somewhere.
I didn't know they were like andthey're just going to be
everywhere.
So when she was growing up shewas really afraid of bugs and
(02:11):
for her that was like really badbecause they were everywhere.
So when I was born, one of thethings she wanted to do to make
sure it was okay I don't want myson to be afraid of bugs and
then so at night, like want myson to be afraid of bugs and
then so at night, like betweenbedtime stories, she'd pull out
like an encyclopedia of all theanimals, flip through it, read
it to me.
And the idea is that I've beenvery acquainted with I'm going
(02:33):
to say like almost all thingsnature ever since I was like
basically a couple of months old, and the thing is that became a
thing where, like I'd walk homewith like frogs in my pockets
at three years old.
I've worked with almost all ofthe small animals.
I've worked with most reptileslike amphibians.
I've got a couple of lizardsback in my room.
(02:56):
I've worked with a lot ofbutterflies, I think in middle
school.
Sometimes if you walked intothe living room there'd be like
600 butterflies flapping around.
It's just something I reallyenjoyed.
Ants is something that I startedlater on and the reason it
stuck was just because I thinkthat ants, in terms of their
behavior, are so much moreinteresting and I think it's
(03:18):
honestly a little bit like us,right?
Like people, they're verysocial, they have very complex
behaviors, and the way I startedCanada Ant Colony so the
business specifically was reallyjust well, there were costs in
terms of equipment or food thatI needed to pay for in order to
(03:38):
have my own hobby running, andthen so initially it would just
be okay, well, I'll catch moreof this species or I'll breed
more of this species, and I knowthis person wants and will
trade for something that I want.
And then that slowly, slowlygrew and over time it snowballed
into something where I was likeOK, well, we're dealing with
like 700 colonies, we're dealingwith 5,000 colonies, maybe it's
better to use cash in them.
(03:59):
That's kind of how thisbusiness started.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
That's great, though.
I mean, I think there's nothingbetter than finding a business
that is rooted in a passion, butobviously passion alone is not
enough to make a business.
So, you know, you've got to beyou've definitely got to be
smart about it and evolve.
So when did you actually startthe company?
Like, how did you make thattransition from scientist and
(04:22):
studying to?
I think I want to, you know,turn this into a business.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
So this actually started the other way around,
where I was in the businessfirst and then I slowly moved
into academia, or rather likewhatever contribution that do
have.
So the thing is is that,generally speaking, well, at
least a couple years ago, if youwanted ants, it'd be relatively
difficult to just find someonewho had a lot of them on hand,
(04:48):
and that includes for scientificlabs.
So, for example, I'd havecustomers who were research
teams, who were looking to studythe effects of certain
chemicals on ants in terms ofpesticides.
I'd have other groups that werelooking to say like, oh, we've
heard about this species foundin this area, but we don't have
(05:09):
any actual confirmation.
Would you have any informationon this?
And then so slowly it's more sothat it got looped into the
scientific community rather thanthe other way around.
And one thing actually that I'vefound really interesting is
that more and more, more a lotof scientists in that study
answer like myrmecologists whostarted as myrmecologists are
(05:30):
consulting hobbyists, so antkeepers, for information about
ants, because generally wespecialize in like different
aspects of the field.
They'll typically know a bitless on the actual husbandry and
making sure that ants arethriving and some of the stuff
that happens, like outdoors,where a lot of times when
they're like cooped up in a lab,they're not able to observe a
lot of the wild behaviors.
And then, on the flip side,like, most ant keepers are not
(05:54):
going to know, like themolecular stuff, they're not
going to know the ins and outsof like which hormones or
developmental organs signal whatprocesses in the ant.
So there's been a slowcommunication and I'm personally
someone that started on the antkeeping side and then
increasingly I'm having moreexperience with the academia
side.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Okay.
So when I think about ants, Ithink about the old school.
What was his name?
Uncle Milton, uncle Miltie,whatever it was the ant farm
that you could, it almost lookedlike a sandwich right.
Exactly, yeah, and it's like OK,it was kind of.
It was kind of up there withsea monkeys which I had ordered
many, many times as a kid andnever quite got them to do
(06:35):
anything.
So it was just kind of an oddnovelty thing.
But in this day and age, whatkind of people are you seeing
keeping ants, and why?
Like what's the fascination, doyou think?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Well, I think, of a pretty big population, A lot of
the ant keepers are still kidsand young adults, and I think
that's just because those arethe people that have a lot more
time.
Those are the people thatremember more clearly like okay,
being little, like beingoutside watching all the ants,
like carry this stuff, beingoutside watching all the ants
carry this stuff, and I thinkthat was the reason that it was
(07:07):
so popular when Uncle Miltonreleased that little ant farm, I
think in the 60s right.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Right now we're also seeing a lot of people in their
mid-20s to mid-30s as ourbiggest demographic, but we're
seeing people from all acrossthe spectrum.
In terms of age, I would sayit's a little bit male heavy,
but not significantly so it'slike a 60-40 split, but I think,
generally speaking, ant keepingis a very diverse hobby in
(07:32):
terms of.
I think a very large portion ofpeople have looked at ants at
some point in their childhoodand been like wow, that's really
interesting, I wonder whatthey're doing, and I think
that's a lot of the draw of whatbrings people into the hobby
into the first place.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
So, as far as actually keeping the ants, you
know and I did look on yourwebsite at the variety of
different habitats I guess I wasanticipating like that there
would be these enormous habitats, but it's not.
They don't necessarily need tobe in something really large,
but there seem to be different.
You know different styles maybefor different types of ants, or
(08:10):
how does that work?
Like what would somebodyanticipate if they were like
okay, I'm thinking about doingthis, what kind of, you know,
what kind of equipment or thingswould I need?
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Yeah, so generally ant keeping it all, the setups
kind of come in two parts.
The first part is theformicarium or the nest.
That's where the queen, that'swhere the babies are being born,
that's where most of the antslive and it's basically what's
happening underground normally.
There's another section that'scalled the outworld.
It's where the ants areforaging for food, it's where
they're putting their garbage,that's for them what's normally
(08:37):
like outside right.
And in terms of like, there'ssmall variations in terms of the
material, in terms of thematerial, in terms of the
aesthetics of what one of thesenests look like.
But generally speaking they allfit into that framework and
typically the vast majority ofspecies can be kept in the vast
majority of nests.
I do appreciate your comment onthe size of a lot of these nests
(08:59):
.
So one of the reasons antkeeping, I think, is so easy is
because ants they're smart andthey live in such a wide variety
of habitats and environments,and so one of the things with
ant keeping, for example, isthat the ants they'll change or
they'll control their growthrates based on the environment
they have.
(09:19):
And so, for example, you'll havesome people that just keep a
colony in the size of a setup,maybe the size of their palm,
and the idea is that if youwanted to and you gave them a
lot of extra food and you heatedthem a lot, you could grow them
to something and I've knownpeople that have done this where
they'll have parts of a nest intheir basement and then they'll
have tubes going through theirstairs into their living room
(09:42):
and there'll be another part ofa nest there They'll have all
the way into the bedroom.
You can have setups that spanthree or four stories, but
really it's something wherebecause the ants, they'll
generally adapt to what they'regiven.
It's something that can also besomething which is on the
corner of your desk, and there'sspecies that naturally, for
example, will live in literallysize of, will live in literally
(10:05):
an acorn, and there are speciesthat will take tens of meters of
worth of soil out of the ground.
So there's a lot of diversitywithin the actual size, but
generally speaking, they can all.
Most of the ants can live withmost of the nests.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
So I would assume I know that one of the things that
I don't know if this issomething you actually said or
something that I had read thatit was.
You know, it's kind of similarto keeping fish, and I will be
the first to admit I've hadterrible luck keeping fish, but
so, hopefully, ants maybe are alittle bit easier.
But I'm always concerned whenI'm keeping something in some
type of container.
(10:43):
Is it the appropriateenvironment for that pet?
It's like, yes, it can survive,but is it thriving?
Is it for lack of a better termenjoying its life or living its
life as it should be intended?
So I would assume thatknowledge and research comes
into play in picking the rightants and, like you said, the way
that you maintain theenvironment so that they're
(11:04):
matched appropriately to theirhabitat that you're planning on
keeping them in.
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yeah, I think that's a big part of it.
This is something that I thinkis unique to ants, for example,
but a lot of people that areused to other pets.
The main issue is, for example,that their setup is too small.
Over-crowning is a very bigissue with a lot of pets.
For ants it's usually the otherway around.
So normally in the wild, becauseants, they're digging slowly
(11:34):
into a wood or soil or asubstrate, normally their nests
are pretty compact and, forexample, the way they protect
each other from diseases, itcomes from grooming, it comes
from being very close to eachother and one of the behaviors
they do is that they'll create agarbage pile, they'll create a
graveyard and they'll putgarbage or the dead bodies there
(11:54):
, respectively, and then withvery big habitats, if it's too
big, the ants struggle todistinguish between what's
underground and what's outside,and then they'll start like
piling garbage inside, forexample.
So generally for ants, the mostimportant things are just that
you don't want to give themsomething that's more than like
(12:16):
three or four times the numberof chambers or the amount of
space they can cover, like thebiggest important things are
giving them heat and then interms of, for example, like
actual enrichment.
Normally, what I would suggestis having a large foraging area
or a large outworld, becauseants they're used to a very,
very small nest underground, butthey're theoretically used to
(12:39):
infinite outdoor space, and so Iwould assume that any of those
behaviors that you'd be lookingfor more so in the wild, that
would help if you would havelarger and maybe even more like
decorator or complex foragingareas for them just to explore
around.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Well, and I would think that that would be more
interesting, you know, you know,if you had just something that
was very, very small and verylimited, because I'm assuming
they're self-contained we're nottaking the ants out, or are we
Taking the ants out of theenvironment and playing with
them, or letting them?
Speaker 2 (13:08):
crawl.
Generally they'reself-contained.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Okay.
So if they're self-contained insomething that's not all that
exciting for them or for us,then how is that good for
anybody?
So creating an environmentwhere you can see what they
would naturally be doing, likeyou said, foraging and things
like that.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Generally, one of the issues with this is that
there's just not that muchinformation in terms of
enrichment for insects.
We definitely know that some ofthem exhibit quote-unquote play
behavior.
And then there have been acouple of ant keepers that I've
tried, for example, like puttinglittle tinfoil balls for like
harvester ants, and they'llnotice them, they're like
they'll be fiddling with themall the time and there's
(13:48):
definitely, I would say, animportance in terms of, like the
habitat complexity, where, ifit's just like flat terrain,
that's probably not ideal forthem but it's.
I would say this is a, this issomewhere where it's definitely
a very evolving part of thehobby, a very evolving part of
just the information that we doknow about how to give them the
best life that we can.
(14:08):
But I would assume for surethat having a little bit more
complexity there is better.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
And generally that is going to correlate with how
interesting the setup is for youto watch as well.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Yeah, yeah, exactly how interesting the setup is for
you to watch as well.
Yeah, yeah, exactly so you hadmentioned I never even thought
about an ant graveyard and anant garbage dump.
It sounds to me and I know thatyou had mentioned this you know
the idea of the socialstructures that they have and
the way that they live theirlives.
One of the things that youmentioned was some of the
behaviors like doing surgery andyou know, tell us a little bit
(14:41):
about some of the interestingthings that you know.
Let's say, if I wasinvestigating it for myself or
if I was a parent, then I waslike, hmm, you know, what's my
kid going to learn by havingsome ants in a thing on his desk
or her desk?
What would we be seeing on adaily basis?
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Yeah, for sure.
I think one of the biggestthings that is most obvious and
a lot of times when I show thisto people they'll be like wait,
sorry, you're telling me theants did this by themselves Is
that the ants.
What they do is that they'llorganize the entire nest and
where everything is based onenvironmental conditions like
humidity, like temperature.
So, for example, for most antsgenerally, the eggs need the
(15:21):
most water because they havereally thin membranes.
They drought very easily, sothey'll select the wettest part
of the nest.
That's where the eggs are.
And then, as an add-on to that,it's like well, the queen lays
eggs and then.
So maybe, instead of moving theeggs all around, we'll just
move the queen near into achamber, near like the egg
chamber as well, and they'llhave for, for example, a
(15:43):
distribution where cocoons orpupae they're okay with drier
areas, they'll be in a dry area,and then so, for example, with
different types of foods, likeseeds, for a lot of harvester
ant species, they'll find a dryarea of the nest.
The idea is that they don'twant them to rot or to germinate
as basically a granary, andthen you'll even have some
species, even even species inthe US and Canada, where they
(16:05):
have a strategy.
Where do you know how maltingworks?
You've heard of malt before.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Like malt liquor, yeah for sure.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
So the idea is that you take some seeds, usually
barley, and then you let themgerminate a little bit and that
makes them a lot softer and itcreates a lot of sugar.
So some of the ants havefigured out how to do something
similar for a lot of the harderseeds that they're digesting,
and so what you'll see is thatyou'll see ants move larger
seeds into a wet area, waituntil it starts sprouting, and
(16:33):
then they'll go in and empty itout and carve it out.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
But they're not brewing their own beer down
there.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
They're not brewing their own beer.
Not yet, not yet they do maketheir own bread.
They do make their own bread,though.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Really.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Yeah, You'll have some ants where they'll chew
that up with an enzyme and itbreaks down the starches into
sugar and it's basically likeit's almost like a cookie dough,
basically, but for ants.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
That's crazy.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Another really interesting thing.
This is always something thatpeople don't believe, but like
being able to potty train yourants.
Okay, when you live in reallyhigh colony densities, normally
what becomes a risk is disease,right.
So ants have a lot ofsophisticated ways to prevent
disease.
You have some species where,for example, they'll go outside,
they'll collect some types oftree resin and they'll spray it
(17:18):
with their own venom and itcombines to create an antiseptic
and they'll cover their nestswith that.
And then so the idea is thatlet's say there's a forager from
outside, let's say that on theoff chance they've contacted
some sort of disease or pathogenon the way back, just by
walking for their nest, they'regetting sanitized because it's
covered in this antiseptic Like.
(17:39):
Another example is thegraveyards we were talking about
earlier.
So generally ants, they want toput dead bodies and dead things
in garbage as far away from thenest as possible and they want
to make it so that it'ssomewhere that's dry so it
doesn't rot and fester basicallywith some other disease.
So one thing you get to see isthat you get to watch the ants.
(17:59):
Normally they'll pick a side ofthe outworld that's far away
from the nest that's dry andthey'll put all the garbage
there.
And then the fun part is theants.
They communicate with eachother using like different
chemical cues, and one of thosechemical cues is something along
the lines of okay, this isgarbage, you have to put it in
the garbage pile.
And so one thing you can do,you can put a little jar in a
(18:19):
foraging area, for example, andthen you put the ant's garbage
inside the jar and they'll thinkokay, I have to put the garbage
in the garbage pile, and itjust so happens that it's moved
into this little jar.
I'll keep putting garbage inthe jar.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Taking the hint.
So what constitutes, other than, I would assume, their waste?
I mean, what is ant garbage,like wrappers from pizza boxes?
What are we talking about herethat they're putting over there?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, so a lot of it is going to be poop.
One funny thing, one recentdiscovery, is that there are
scientists that have createdthis whole model that has helped
them figure out how ants choosewhich room to be, like the
designated toilet room A lot oftimes times.
So ants, generally they'll eatsome, they need some sort of
carbohydrates.
Normally that's like sugarslike think like maple syrup or
(19:06):
honey or nectar, and then theyneed protein.
So and for when you're little,that's really in the form of
other insects.
So a lot of what they'rethrowing away is shells of other
insects, so maybe like like apiece of a cricket that they
couldn't get to, or like thewing of like a fly.
So ants, a lot of ants, they'llspin a little cocoon before they
(19:26):
emerge.
It's kind of like they grow upin a similar way butterflies do,
through complete metamorphosisand they'll have a little pile
of like cocoon casings, forexample, and that'll be part of
the waste.
Sometimes some ants will uselike sand as basically a sponge
to pick up liquids and then soyou'll see a pile of like, also
(19:47):
just like sticky sand, and it'sstuff that they used it to move
around, some sugar, and thenit's they've trunk all of it and
it's sticky.
It's gross.
They'll throw it away.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
So tell me about the surgeries.
I have to know what.
What kind of surgery are theydoing on each other down there?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
where, in a leg for example, they'll figure out
whether to do an amputation andthen whether or not to apply
antibiotics directly to thewound, whether or not they have
to sanitize or, for example,spray acid onto the wound as
well or the surrounding area.
But there's a recent discoverywhere certain diseases like one
of them is called pseudomonasit's something that affects
humans as well, so there's bigoutbreaks in hospitals all the
(20:42):
time.
But it seems that it's adisease where, when ants are
infected alone, the survivalrate is something like 8%.
8% of them will survive aftertwo weeks.
But when they're in a groupwhere they're actively like, oh,
they find an infection, they'llcut off that part of the limb,
they'll apply antibiotics to it.
(21:03):
The survival rate jumps tosomething like 80% 90%.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
That's crazy, that's just amazing.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
I thought this was really funny.
I also for this disease.
Specifically, I looked it upwhat like the regular survival
rate for people was like in ourhospitals?
It's somewhere in the 60% range.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
So it's something that they're apparently doing
better than we are.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Apparently.
Apparently they've got.
They got this, they got abetter system down than we do.
Okay, so let's let's talk aboutkind of the like I mentioned.
I have not had the best of luckkeeping fish, despite doing
tons of research.
Maybe I'm making it toocomplicated in some instances,
but something that I had read,and I think it was on your
website, talked about that, onceyou have your setup and
(21:52):
appropriate setup, that it's nothorribly time consuming.
Because I'm thinking about kids, and as much as a child might
be interested in caring for apet, their time commitment is
probably not what we might wantit to be as parents sometimes.
So what all is involved, let'ssay, whether it's on a daily or
weekly, monthly, however oftenwe have to intervene in this
(22:14):
environment that we've createdonce we get it set up.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, so generally ant keeping it's a really easy
hobby, and the reason is becausethe ants are doing most of the
work for you.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Generally all you have to do it takes around five
minutes a week.
Number one give them water.
That's twice a week.
You give them some sugars andthat's usually like a maple
syrup or honey.
That can be like a drop on likea tinfoil plate.
There's also a lot of likeautomatic feeders available.
Where it becomes you, you fillit every two weeks or so and
then you give them like a pieceof an insect so that normally
that can be like a piece of amealworm from like a pet store
(22:45):
or like a cricket or even likeif there's like a fly air house
and you catch it and you throwit in.
They'll eat it.
One really nice thing about antsand so I'm someone who has to
travel a lot for work and alsobecause my family lives five
hours away, but most ants andthis is especially in the
northern hemisphere, wouldn'tapply as much in Texas.
But, for example, normally inthe winter, when it gets cold,
(23:11):
the ants, they go into ahibernative state.
It's something called diapause.
They basically slow down, thebabies stop growing, the adults
they stop going out and foragingand it's like a very deep sleep
, or at least not as muchactivity for a couple of months.
And one thing you can do.
For example, let's say thatyou're not able to take care of
your ant colony for a while,throw them in the fridge For
them.
They'll act as if winter hasarrived, so they'll slow down
(23:34):
and everything All you have togive them is water, and then say
, at a better time of year let'ssay, or let's say that you're
just going vacation for a coupleof months or you'll be out of
your house for a couple ofmonths.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
And you can't find an ant sitter Right.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
You come back, you take them out of the fridge and
they'll resume life as ifspringtime just came back.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Wow, how long can they stay like that?
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Generally speaking, around like four or five months
up to Wow.
Generally speaking, around fouror five months up to Wow.
Generally, the time periodwe're giving them here is around
three, four months.
I am from Canada and I knowthat in the States most of them
need a lot less than that orwould work with a lot less than
that.
But even in parts of Californiawe're talking about it could be
(24:21):
in the fridge for three monthspretty easily.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Oh wow.
All right.
So I noticed on your websitethat and I love the resources on
there there's so much to read,there's so much to educate
yourself, and it's nice to kindof have that number one from a
reliable source and to have itin one place and I like that you
kind of guided people towards,like beginner this is, you know,
this is where a beginner mightstart.
(24:44):
So let's let's talk a littlebit about species, Cause my, my
experience with ants living inTexas uh, you know, growing up,
yes, the ants were fascinating.
They were.
I don't know what ants theywere, they didn't bite, they
didn't sting, they didn't invadeyour house, they were kind of
outside doing their thing.
You know, kind of like wecalled them picnic ants and that
was kind of it and they werefine.
(25:05):
But here fire ants are thescourge of my existence.
As a matter of fact, I've gotfire ant bites all over my feet
because I was accidentallystanding in some.
It's just like a constant thing,and I had seen something
somewhere that was talking aboutpeople keeping fire ants as
pets.
So I guess what I want to knowis what kind of species are we
(25:26):
talking about here?
And I also noticed on yourwebsite when I was looking at
the actual like ordering ants,that there were specific states,
like Georgia only.
And so how does that work?
We just can't like randomlypull some invasive species from
somewhere in the world and youknow, oops, it got out.
(25:46):
You know that probably wouldn'tbe good, right.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Gotcha, yeah, so I guess there's a couple of
questions.
The first thing is like whatanswer are we normally selling?
So, generally on our website,we're selling species that are
native to especially Canada anda lot of them from the States,
and species that are like, maybenot native but they're very
established.
So think about, like rockpigeons, for example, they're
(26:09):
not native in every single city,but they're going to be there
in every single city and they'regoing to be species that
theoretically, you could findoutside and if they get out it's
not going to be a very big deal.
That's generally what we'reworking with in terms of the
species on our website and wetake care where species that are
particularly able to becomepests pharaoh ants especially,
for example we generally stayaway from If someone has an
(26:31):
experience.
We'd rather not give someone anexperience where there's a risk
of anything bad happening inother parts of their life
because of their pet.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
So in terms of the question you asked on, like
restrictions, especially interms of the hobby, so there's a
lot of restrictions on antkeeping, especially in North
America, and it's because of thefire ant, it's because I think,
on some some agriculturalshipments from Argentina, like
decades ago, arrived in, arrivedin the States, and then now
(27:02):
there's a bunch of invasivespecies actually that come from
parts of South America and thenso the like the US government
and the Canadian government,they're afraid of this.
It's pretty fair in terms ofgenerally the legislation is
that in Canada you're not ableto get ants from outside the
country, rather it's verydifficult, we do, but there's a
long approval process.
And then in the country,whether it's very difficult, we
(27:24):
do, but there's a long approvalprocess.
And then in the Statesgenerally you're only able to
get species from within your ownstate, or at least ones that
like are native to your ownstate.
So that's what the restrictionswhere we'll have like state
specific, like ability topurchase, that's generally where
that comes from.
I think that a lot of people andobviously there's a bias here I
think a lot of people in thehobby, more so in Canada than in
(27:46):
the States, argue that themeasures they take are a little
bit extreme.
So, for example, one of them isthat, by default, all ants that
are from outside the country arefully banned here in Canada,
and obviously the fear is thatthey're going to come out,
they're going to become invasivespecies, and that's a
relatively reasonable risk forsome species of ants, but
(28:07):
there's other species of ants,for example, where there's ants
from the tropics, where they'renot going to survive under 70
degrees Fahrenheit, and here inCanada we're getting negative 50
degrees every winter, and itdoesn't matter whether you're
using Fahrenheit or Celsius atthat point, and the ants are
100% going to die.
But it's definitely a changingbody of legislation, and
(28:30):
generally both governments, Iwould say, are loosening up a
little bit in terms ofaccommodating for ant keepers,
both as a hobby and as anindustry.
What's interesting, though, isthat if you compare what ant
keeping looks like here in NorthAmerica to what it looks like
in Europe and Asia, it's acompletely different landscape,
because generally, in both ofthose areas, they have a lot
(28:51):
less experience with invasivespecies, and then so generally
for them, instead of having likeeverything is default banned,
everything is default legal tobring in, and so in a lot of
parts of Europe.
For example, you'll find antsin like a third of like all pet
stores, and a lot of the bigcities will just have.
We'll have.
We'll even have like antspecific stores that you can
(29:12):
just go into.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
So I would say it's a phenomenon where it's
definitely smaller, in NorthAmerica too.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Yeah, and because of the fire ant, yeah.
So if I mean, obviously, as anadult human, if I wanted to
pursue this as a, you know, ahobby or have have ants as pets,
I can do my homework as toacquisition and habitat and
what's allowed, how, what theprocess is to get them.
But if you were advisingparents?
(29:40):
So my child came home with abook on ants and now they want
ants as pets.
What would be a good chronologyor progression or steps, like
first step, I should do this,this, this just on a high level,
to go from the idea toacquisition.
That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
So, generally, what I would advise is, I would say,
for parents with kidsspecifically, it would usually
be better, especially if it's ato like, find a reputable dealer
.
There's several in the States,there's us, there's us in Canada
, and, for example, like AntsCanada, they have something
called the global ant nurserywhere, if you like, look up your
(30:20):
city, they'll they'll link youto someone who, to someone who
has ants, who's local to you,that's willing to sell them
right.
Generally speaking, ant keepingis something that doesn't need
a lot to start.
They start in little test tubes, play little colonies, and what
I would say is that you reallydon't need anything other than
that.
What I would say, though, isthat, for parents with kids,
(30:41):
especially if you have theoption to and maybe this means
paying a little bit extra for tostart with a larger colony,
that's generally going to bebetter, and the reason is
because larger colonies aregoing to be a lot more active in
the wild.
When they have three workers,they're going to be scared,
they're not going to go out,because then they're risking a
third of their workforce.
When they have like 25 to 50,which is, I would say, a more
(31:04):
ideal range then they're goingto be a lot more engaging to
watch, and one option is just tolike so.
Have you ever seen ants withwings?
Speaker 1 (31:13):
I have yes.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
So those are ant queens and ant males, basically,
and they're going out, they'reflying, they're mating and
they're picking a new spot tostart a colony.
One easy way, especially ifyou're on a budget, is just to
look for one of those it'scalled a nuptial flight Just to
collect a queen.
What you do is you take alittle test tube, you fill it
halfway with water, you block itwith cotton, you put the queen
(31:38):
inside, you plug it up and thenshe'll start the first, like
she'll raise the firstgeneration of workers herself.
Maybe two months later you'llhave a small colony with a
couple of workers and you justfeed them and grow them slowly
for there.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
So this is a so you're just talking about
getting something, because I wasgoing to ask you about, like,
can I just collect an ant fromoutside and start my own family?
Speaker 2 (32:01):
So the answer is yes, but only if it's a queen.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
OK, you'd have to know that those are those big
ants with wings normally.
Right.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
So it is something you can start for free.
It is going to be a little bitless engaging at first, just
because the analogy that I likeis that let's say you want a
tree, let's say you want like alittle tree, right?
Or you have a couple options.
You can buy a tree, you can buya sapling, you can get a seed,
and so in this case, generally Iwould advise getting like a
(32:34):
small to mid-sized colony.
That's the equivalent of asapling.
But if you'd like and this isgoing to be a lot more
budget-friendly you can lookoutside, try to find a seed or a
queen in this case and start itfrom scratch on your own, and
for some, people, that's veryrewarding too.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Yeah, yeah, it just depends on how.
Are you going for the instantgratification of all the
activity or are you willing towait it out?
And some people are they likestarting from scratch and look,
I started from just this onething and it kind of built to
this, so yeah, but I would guessthat's probably not the best
way for kids, because kids Idon't think would have the
patience.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
That's what I mean.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
If you think your kids are patient, you can go for
either.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Yeahbtful, they're pretty rare, yeah yeah.
So when we first talked wetalked about ants as gifts and
and many times on our show we'vetalked about giving pets as
gifts and you know, in general,not a great idea can be a great
idea in certain circumstanceswhen all the homework and the
forethought and whatever elsehas gone into that.
But what are your thoughts?
You know we're kind of goinginto the holidays.
If somebody is listening tothis episode and thinking, oh,
(33:45):
you know, that would be a greatgift for my kid, what would be
your you know do's and don'ts orwhat would be your advice to
them.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Yeah, well, I think that one thing that I do want to
bring up.
This is especially for families.
I've definitely noticed thatthere's a difference between, or
that there are people who, hey,I want this as a gift for my
kid, I think they'd be reallyinterested, and there's people
who, hey, I really want this andI can use my kid as an excuse
to get this.
So I think there's definitely asplit there and I think what I
(34:13):
would say the biggest thing isto make sure that there's
someone who is, number one, ableto take care of the ants and,
number two, willing to take careof the ants, and, in the case
where you're giving thisspecifically just for your kid,
it's making sure they've takenthe time to research, and I
would say that especially thatthey've brought this up or asked
to brought this up or asked to.
(34:37):
I think, generally, if you'reunsure whether or not your kid
is looking to get into antkeeping, it's generally not the
best idea just to spring it ontothem.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Yeah, maybe get a book about ants or something
like that.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Right.
One alternative, even I thinkin that case might just be
getting some of the supplies interms of oh, here's a little ant
farm, there's no ants inside.
If it's something you'reinterested in, this is something
they can pursue later.
It would be the equivalent ofgetting a little empty fish tank
or, for example, like youmentioned, where you're getting
(35:06):
things like a little book ormaybe.
I know there's a lot ofant-related video games out
there or related and relatedlike board games even.
There's a lot of options.
But generally I would say thatgetting the actual pet, unless
it's something that's beendiscussed before, isn't
something that's great, justlike under the Christmas tree,
right, Especially unsuspecting.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yeah, Especially if you're not willing to then take
on the responsibility for that.
Because if the kid has nointerest in it whatsoever and
they're like, yeah, I don't likethat, I don't want that Ew bugs
, Then now what are you going todo?
You know somebody needs.
It's a living thing.
You need to take care of it.
So be prepared that you nowhave an ant farm, mom or dad or
whoever.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Right.
That's why I make thedistinction where we definitely
do get a lot of people where,just from the way they talk,
it's like, oh, we definitely doget a lot of people where, just
from the way they talk, it'slike, oh, I really want an ant
farm.
But I think it'd be easier tosay that my kid did.
One other thing that we do, andthis is especially for things
(36:11):
like gifts but we have a vouchersystem where, instead of buying
ants, someone can just buy alittle code on the back and
it'll let you redeem a freecolony of ants somewhere down
the line, where it's somethingthat you skip.
A lot of the issues in terms ofokay, what if they don't want
ants?
What if something changeshalfway through?
What if, for example, lifecircumstances, you're not able
to take care of these?
Or even just and this is morerelevant here in the north, but
(36:32):
it's really cold in the winterwhat if we'd rather start this
in spring, where shipping isgoing to be less expensive?
And in that case, instead ofgetting them a little colony, it
can just be hey, here's alittle voucher, it's a little
code, and if you want to get, ifyou're interested, once you're
ready for a colony.
Here we've basicallypre-purchased something for you
and you can redeem it anytimeyou want repurchase something
(36:53):
for you and you can redeem itanytime you want.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
And I'm assuming I could get a voucher for, you
know, for the habitats or forwhatever, like you know, just a
voucher from your website sothat people, you know they could
use it for what they need whenthey're ready to move forward.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Yeah, that's correct.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Okay, and just for point of clarification, just to
make sure I'm understanding this.
So since you're based in Canada, can I order?
I know I could obviously orderequipment from you.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Can I order ants from you, or I could order the
equipment and then I would go toa resource to find somebody
local to get ants for me in theUS.
So, generally speaking, you'renot going to be able to get live
ants from us.
We do have like a sizablenetwork of folks in the States
and that's why there are someants on our website where it
says you're able to receive themIf you're in the States.
It's because we've partneredwith someone locally in those
States to send them out.
Got it?
As I mentioned before, there'salso a bunch of resources in
(37:46):
terms of even if you look onCraigslist, if you look in
different forums, if you go tothe Global Ant Nursery Project I
mentioned, they'll connect youwith someone local who has ants
for sale, and there's a coupleretailers in the States as well
that'll have the permits to shipants around.
But generally the barrier toentry isn't too high.
There might be a little bit ofsearching that needs to be done.
(38:09):
Still, we're working on apartnership with the States to
make that a lot easier in thefuture.
But yeah, it's something thatyou wouldn't be able to get from
us directly, at least not theants themselves.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Yeah, but everything, because what I liked is just
the variety of the.
Well, and obviously we talkedabout the appropriateness of the
size and the type of habitat,but just it was.
It was more than I thought itwas going to be.
I figured when I went to lookat the actual habitat that it
would be like, okay, you can getthis or this or this.
But there was a lot and I likethe little log ones.
I thought those were super cool.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
They are no.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Because they're attractive and, you know, have
all the little compartments forthem to do their thing.
It's like a little art pieceright.
Yeah, exactly Exactly.
Is there a you know, I wouldassume when you identify ones
that would be more for beginners, it's because of ease of care,
or does it have to do with theiractivities?
Like, are they that differentin what they're doing and how
(39:03):
they, once they're in theirhabitat?
I mean, are they all kind ofliving their lives as ants, or
do different ones have likecompletely different types of
activity that they do?
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Generally they'll have very different activities,
but generally that doesn'taffect the care significantly.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Yeah, Like two families and houses.
Let's say one of them has likea pantry, one of them doesn't.
They're still going to gooutside to the groceries by the
same things.
They're just doing differentthings inside.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Right.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
And you don't have to interfere with that.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Okay, let's, let's flip it up a little bit.
So I've got a habitat full ofcats and a habitat full of
horses.
Obviously, horses and cats aredoing very different things in
their lives.
They eat different things.
Whatever is, are the differenttypes of ants that different as
far as like, oh, these are moreinteresting to watch because
they do this, this and this, orthese are more interesting to
(39:56):
watch because they're moresocial, more aggressive.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Yeah, I'm just curious as to the like would it
be?
Would a person have twodifferent types of ant colonies
because this one is cool becauseit does this and this one is
cool because it does that?
Speaker 2 (40:10):
So generally there's two categories of ants.
I'm going to categorize them intwo portions now.
So generally there's twocategories of ants.
I'm going to categorize them intwo portions now and some of
them are generalist ants and theother ones are specialist ants.
Generally speaking, generalistants are going to all have very
similar behaviors.
They're going to all have verysimilar diets.
They're going to be easier tocare for and that's what we
typically recommend forbeginners, but they do.
(40:30):
There is an option where, let'ssay, they're confident and they
like how the hobby is going,where there's a lot of specialty
species where their carerequirements are going to be
very different.
They're going to be like theequivalent difference between a
horse and a cat, but generallythose aren't what's being
suggested to people entering thehobby right out of the gates.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Well, like keeping fish right.
The difference between keepinga goldfish and a saltwater,
something or other, where it's awhole different needs different
lifestyle, everything else.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Right, but, for example, most of the freshwater
fish, they're going to besimilar enough where they might
do better if you make XYZadjustment, but generally
they're all going to eat similarfoods Not all of them, but most
of them are going to eatsimilar foods and anything that
doesn't is generally not goingto be given to a first-time ant
keeper around the gates.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Okay, that makes sense, okay, good.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Generally, 95% of species do great with, just like
a sugar mix insects.
Even the ones that eat seeds,for example, they do so
primarily optionally, so theycan take sugar, they can take
insects, and if you want to givethem seeds that's certainly an
option, but they don't have tohave them to thrive.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
Okay, good to know.
Good to know.
So your YouTube channel Downthe Ant Hill and I was watching
some videos and they were veryentertaining, but the one with
the leaf cutter ants I thoughtwas fascinating.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
So I Run Down the Ant Hill.
It's primarily it's just alittle short from content about,
like the ecology, aboutdifferent aspects of ants and
ant society that peoplegenerally wouldn't be guessing
right.
The tagline is that we'rebringing you the stories of ants
, we're on YouTube or onInstagram or on TikTok.
Generally, okay, we do prettybad on YouTube but on.
(42:27):
Instagram and TikTok we'rerelatively more popular.
But, for example, one of ourmore recent videos talked about
leaf cutter ants and it comesfrom like a recent not that
recent, but it comes from like asemi-recent study where it
turns out that leaf cutter antsand this is collectively, not
any individual colony or species, but collectively they have
(42:48):
like the equivalent carbonemissions of like a small
country, and the reason is justbecause they're cutting out so
many leaves, they're turningthem into mushrooms, they're
producing a lot of compost orlike manure equivalent where
it's, it has like a measurableimpact on, like the global
climate.
Leaf cutter ants are definitelya group of ants that are a lot
more specialized in terms oflike what the keeping looks like
(43:11):
.
They're not a species wegenerally would suggest for
beginners.
The idea is that, instead ofgoing out and hunting for
insects, instead of going outand looking for sugars, what
leafcutter ants do is that theycut pieces of leaves, little
plants and even insect poop.
They'll bring it back in andthey form a fungus that is
reliant on them.
(43:31):
They basically fertilize thefungus.
They even weed it so they'lluse like specific, like
ant-specific pesticides to liketake out like other types of
fungus or bacteria they don'twant in their little gardens and
then they basically eat thefungus, the mushroom.
It's the only thing they eat.
And there's little little onesthat are native all the way up
(43:54):
to like they eat.
And there's little little onesthat are native all the way up
to like New York, and then thebigger ones generally atta,
that's what they're called arenative all the way up to like, I
think, like Southern or evenlike Middle Texas.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Okay, yeah, I thought it was fascinating in that
video how smart they are to haveadapted their environment the
example that you were talkingabout, how they build their
little mounds on the ground sothat they can basically release
the carbon dioxide, so theydon't basically don't gas
themselves, and it's like that'spretty, pretty amazing how
they've adapted to survive.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
And it's funny because so what they do is that
they build little vents rightand so air comes in one way and
it flushes out all the carbondioxide and all the.
It basically freshens the airon the inside of the nest, and
it's interesting because theseare structures that humans have
Like.
For them it's basically like aslightly more advanced chimney
or like an air poweredventilation system, and it's
(44:52):
something that we've invented,like humans, maybe in the last
couple of hundred years, andsomething that they've had for
millions of years before we did.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Incredible.
That's incredible.
Well, zach, I have to say, whenyou first reached out, I was
like, yeah, I don't want to doanything about ants, I don't
like ants, and now I'm justcompletely fascinated by them.
I just thank you so much forreaching out and for caring
about ants and caring abouteducating the world about them,
and not only their entertainmentand quality value as pets, but
(45:22):
just their impact on theenvironment, on the world.
I just think it's so importantthat we learn about the
creatures that are in our worldmore than we take the time to do
on our own, I should say so.
Thank you so much for beinghere on the show.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
Yeah, and we'll definitely put some links
obviously put links to yourwebsite and to the nursery that
you mentioned.
So I'll make sure I get thoselinks in our show notes and for
everybody that's listening.
Again, we don't like to giveanything as pets to somebody
that is an unsuspectingrecipient, but for those of you
who might be looking for a petthat is self-contained, easy to
(45:59):
maintain, do your homework, seeif it's a fit for you, but you
know, ants might be the thing.
It might be a great alternativeto keep you company and keep
you entertained.
So check it out.
And thank you for listening toanother episode of Starlight Pet
Talk.
We'll see you next week.
And thank you for listening toanother episode of Starlight Pet
Talk.
We'll see you next week.
Thanks for listening toStarlight Pet Talk.
Be sure to visit our website atstarlightpettalkcom for more
(46:21):
resources and be sure to followthis podcast on your favorite
podcast app so you'll never missa show.
And hey, if you like this show,text someone right now and say
I've got a podcastrecommendation.
You need to check the show outand tell them to listen and let
you know what they think.
Don't forget to tune in nextweek and every week for a brand
new episode of Starlight PetTalk and if you don't do
(46:45):
anything else this week, giveyour pets a big hug from us.
Ever thought about keeping ants as pets?
No, seriously.
Even if you're not an insectenthusiast, what you're about to
hear in this episode couldchange your mind about these
tiny six-legged masterminds.
From surprising socialbehaviors to eco-friendly
practices, the fascinating worldof ants might just offer you a
new perspective on these busylittle buggers.
(00:20):
Stay tuned.
You're listening to StarlightPet Talk, a podcast for pet
parents who want the best petcare advice from cat experts,
dog trainers, veterinarians andother top pet professionals who
will help you live your verybest life with your pets.
Welcome to Starlight Pet Talk.
(00:41):
I'm your host, amy Castro, andtoday I am thrilled to welcome
Zachary Liu, a myrmecologistfrom McGill University, who is
dedicated to making science funand accessible to everyone For
everyone.
Together, we're going toexplore the fascinating world of
(01:03):
ants, which I never thought.
I would even say those wordstogether fascinating and ants
but I am very intrigued now fromdoing my research so, from
their complex behaviors to whyant keeping has become one of
the fastest growing hobbiesaround.
So, zach, thank you for beinghere and for reaching out to be
on the show, because I probablynever would have done it the
other way around.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
No worries on the show, because I probably never
would have done it the other wayaround.
No worries, I think ant keepingjust as a whole, it's something
that you wouldn't think is sointeresting until you actually
look into it, right?
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Yeah, exactly.
So I noticed on your.
I was looking on your websiteand I'm assuming that cute
little boy that has thebutterfly in his hand is you,
that's me.
Okay, so obviously you've beena I wouldn't even say it's a bug
guy, right Cause that would bethe wrong term but how did you
get involved in ants,butterflies, things like that?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yeah, so it's actually an interesting story
and it depends how far back youwant to go.
But my mom was from like a veryrural part of Southern China.
Like this is somewhere where,like every single time I go back
, there's like little endangeredspecies.
I'll notice like oh, I've seenthis in a book somewhere.
I didn't know they were like andthey're just going to be
everywhere.
So when she was growing up shewas really afraid of bugs and
(02:11):
for her that was like really badbecause they were everywhere.
So when I was born, one of thethings she wanted to do to make
sure it was okay I don't want myson to be afraid of bugs and
then so at night, like want myson to be afraid of bugs and
then so at night, like betweenbedtime stories, she'd pull out
like an encyclopedia of all theanimals, flip through it, read
it to me.
And the idea is that I've beenvery acquainted with I'm going
(02:33):
to say like almost all thingsnature ever since I was like
basically a couple of months old, and the thing is that became a
thing where, like I'd walk homewith like frogs in my pockets
at three years old.
I've worked with almost all ofthe small animals.
I've worked with most reptileslike amphibians.
I've got a couple of lizardsback in my room.
(02:56):
I've worked with a lot ofbutterflies, I think in middle
school.
Sometimes if you walked intothe living room there'd be like
600 butterflies flapping around.
It's just something I reallyenjoyed.
Ants is something that I startedlater on and the reason it
stuck was just because I thinkthat ants, in terms of their
behavior, are so much moreinteresting and I think it's
(03:18):
honestly a little bit like us,right?
Like people, they're verysocial, they have very complex
behaviors, and the way I startedCanada Ant Colony so the
business specifically was reallyjust well, there were costs in
terms of equipment or food thatI needed to pay for in order to
(03:38):
have my own hobby running, andthen so initially it would just
be okay, well, I'll catch moreof this species or I'll breed
more of this species, and I knowthis person wants and will
trade for something that I want.
And then that slowly, slowlygrew and over time it snowballed
into something where I was likeOK, well, we're dealing with
like 700 colonies, we're dealingwith 5,000 colonies, maybe it's
better to use cash in them.
(03:59):
That's kind of how thisbusiness started.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
That's great, though.
I mean, I think there's nothingbetter than finding a business
that is rooted in a passion, butobviously passion alone is not
enough to make a business.
So, you know, you've got to beyou've definitely got to be
smart about it and evolve.
So when did you actually startthe company?
Like, how did you make thattransition from scientist and
(04:22):
studying to?
I think I want to, you know,turn this into a business.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
So this actually started the other way around,
where I was in the businessfirst and then I slowly moved
into academia, or rather likewhatever contribution that do
have.
So the thing is is that,generally speaking, well, at
least a couple years ago, if youwanted ants, it'd be relatively
difficult to just find someonewho had a lot of them on hand,
(04:48):
and that includes for scientificlabs.
So, for example, I'd havecustomers who were research
teams, who were looking to studythe effects of certain
chemicals on ants in terms ofpesticides.
I'd have other groups that werelooking to say like, oh, we've
heard about this species foundin this area, but we don't have
(05:09):
any actual confirmation.
Would you have any informationon this?
And then so slowly it's more sothat it got looped into the
scientific community rather thanthe other way around.
And one thing actually that I'vefound really interesting is
that more and more, more a lotof scientists in that study
answer like myrmecologists whostarted as myrmecologists are
(05:30):
consulting hobbyists, so antkeepers, for information about
ants, because generally wespecialize in like different
aspects of the field.
They'll typically know a bitless on the actual husbandry and
making sure that ants arethriving and some of the stuff
that happens, like outdoors,where a lot of times when
they're like cooped up in a lab,they're not able to observe a
lot of the wild behaviors.
And then, on the flip side,like, most ant keepers are not
(05:54):
going to know, like themolecular stuff, they're not
going to know the ins and outsof like which hormones or
developmental organs signal whatprocesses in the ant.
So there's been a slowcommunication and I'm personally
someone that started on the antkeeping side and then
increasingly I'm having moreexperience with the academia
side.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Okay.
So when I think about ants, Ithink about the old school.
What was his name?
Uncle Milton, uncle Miltie,whatever it was the ant farm
that you could, it almost lookedlike a sandwich right.
Exactly, yeah, and it's like OK,it was kind of.
It was kind of up there withsea monkeys which I had ordered
many, many times as a kid andnever quite got them to do
(06:35):
anything.
So it was just kind of an oddnovelty thing.
But in this day and age, whatkind of people are you seeing
keeping ants, and why?
Like what's the fascination, doyou think?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Well, I think, of a pretty big population, A lot of
the ant keepers are still kidsand young adults, and I think
that's just because those arethe people that have a lot more
time.
Those are the people thatremember more clearly like okay,
being little, like beingoutside watching all the ants,
like carry this stuff, beingoutside watching all the ants
carry this stuff, and I thinkthat was the reason that it was
(07:07):
so popular when Uncle Miltonreleased that little ant farm, I
think in the 60s right.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Right now we're also seeing a lot of people in their
mid-20s to mid-30s as ourbiggest demographic, but we're
seeing people from all acrossthe spectrum.
In terms of age, I would sayit's a little bit male heavy,
but not significantly so it'slike a 60-40 split, but I think,
generally speaking, ant keepingis a very diverse hobby in
(07:32):
terms of.
I think a very large portion ofpeople have looked at ants at
some point in their childhoodand been like wow, that's really
interesting, I wonder whatthey're doing, and I think
that's a lot of the draw of whatbrings people into the hobby
into the first place.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
So, as far as actually keeping the ants, you
know and I did look on yourwebsite at the variety of
different habitats I guess I wasanticipating like that there
would be these enormous habitats, but it's not.
They don't necessarily need tobe in something really large,
but there seem to be different.
You know different styles maybefor different types of ants, or
(08:10):
how does that work?
Like what would somebodyanticipate if they were like
okay, I'm thinking about doingthis, what kind of, you know,
what kind of equipment or thingswould I need?
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Yeah, so generally ant keeping it all, the setups
kind of come in two parts.
The first part is theformicarium or the nest.
That's where the queen, that'swhere the babies are being born,
that's where most of the antslive and it's basically what's
happening underground normally.
There's another section that'scalled the outworld.
It's where the ants areforaging for food, it's where
they're putting their garbage,that's for them what's normally
(08:37):
like outside right.
And in terms of like, there'ssmall variations in terms of the
material, in terms of thematerial, in terms of the
aesthetics of what one of thesenests look like.
But generally speaking they allfit into that framework and
typically the vast majority ofspecies can be kept in the vast
majority of nests.
I do appreciate your comment onthe size of a lot of these nests
(08:59):
.
So one of the reasons antkeeping, I think, is so easy is
because ants they're smart andthey live in such a wide variety
of habitats and environments,and so one of the things with
ant keeping, for example, isthat the ants they'll change or
they'll control their growthrates based on the environment
they have.
(09:19):
And so, for example, you'll havesome people that just keep a
colony in the size of a setup,maybe the size of their palm,
and the idea is that if youwanted to and you gave them a
lot of extra food and you heatedthem a lot, you could grow them
to something and I've knownpeople that have done this where
they'll have parts of a nest intheir basement and then they'll
have tubes going through theirstairs into their living room
(09:42):
and there'll be another part ofa nest there They'll have all
the way into the bedroom.
You can have setups that spanthree or four stories, but
really it's something wherebecause the ants, they'll
generally adapt to what they'regiven.
It's something that can also besomething which is on the
corner of your desk, and there'sspecies that naturally, for
example, will live in literallysize of, will live in literally
(10:05):
an acorn, and there are speciesthat will take tens of meters of
worth of soil out of the ground.
So there's a lot of diversitywithin the actual size, but
generally speaking, they can all.
Most of the ants can live withmost of the nests.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
So I would assume I know that one of the things that
I don't know if this issomething you actually said or
something that I had read thatit was.
You know, it's kind of similarto keeping fish, and I will be
the first to admit I've hadterrible luck keeping fish, but
so, hopefully, ants maybe are alittle bit easier.
But I'm always concerned whenI'm keeping something in some
type of container.
(10:43):
Is it the appropriateenvironment for that pet?
It's like, yes, it can survive,but is it thriving?
Is it for lack of a better termenjoying its life or living its
life as it should be intended?
So I would assume thatknowledge and research comes
into play in picking the rightants and, like you said, the way
that you maintain theenvironment so that they're
(11:04):
matched appropriately to theirhabitat that you're planning on
keeping them in.
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yeah, I think that's a big part of it.
This is something that I thinkis unique to ants, for example,
but a lot of people that areused to other pets.
The main issue is, for example,that their setup is too small.
Over-crowning is a very bigissue with a lot of pets.
For ants it's usually the otherway around.
So normally in the wild, becauseants, they're digging slowly
(11:34):
into a wood or soil or asubstrate, normally their nests
are pretty compact and, forexample, the way they protect
each other from diseases, itcomes from grooming, it comes
from being very close to eachother and one of the behaviors
they do is that they'll create agarbage pile, they'll create a
graveyard and they'll putgarbage or the dead bodies there
(11:54):
, respectively, and then withvery big habitats, if it's too
big, the ants struggle todistinguish between what's
underground and what's outside,and then they'll start like
piling garbage inside, forexample.
So generally for ants, the mostimportant things are just that
you don't want to give themsomething that's more than like
(12:16):
three or four times the numberof chambers or the amount of
space they can cover, like thebiggest important things are
giving them heat and then interms of, for example, like
actual enrichment.
Normally, what I would suggestis having a large foraging area
or a large outworld, becauseants they're used to a very,
very small nest underground, butthey're theoretically used to
(12:39):
infinite outdoor space, and so Iwould assume that any of those
behaviors that you'd be lookingfor more so in the wild, that
would help if you would havelarger and maybe even more like
decorator or complex foragingareas for them just to explore
around.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Well, and I would think that that would be more
interesting, you know, you know,if you had just something that
was very, very small and verylimited, because I'm assuming
they're self-contained we're nottaking the ants out, or are we
Taking the ants out of theenvironment and playing with
them, or letting them?
Speaker 2 (13:08):
crawl.
Generally they'reself-contained.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Okay.
So if they're self-contained insomething that's not all that
exciting for them or for us,then how is that good for
anybody?
So creating an environmentwhere you can see what they
would naturally be doing, likeyou said, foraging and things
like that.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Generally, one of the issues with this is that
there's just not that muchinformation in terms of
enrichment for insects.
We definitely know that some ofthem exhibit quote-unquote play
behavior.
And then there have been acouple of ant keepers that I've
tried, for example, like puttinglittle tinfoil balls for like
harvester ants, and they'llnotice them, they're like
they'll be fiddling with themall the time and there's
(13:48):
definitely, I would say, animportance in terms of, like the
habitat complexity, where, ifit's just like flat terrain,
that's probably not ideal forthem but it's.
I would say this is a, this issomewhere where it's definitely
a very evolving part of thehobby, a very evolving part of
just the information that we doknow about how to give them the
best life that we can.
(14:08):
But I would assume for surethat having a little bit more
complexity there is better.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
And generally that is going to correlate with how
interesting the setup is for youto watch as well.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Yeah, yeah, exactly how interesting the setup is for
you to watch as well.
Yeah, yeah, exactly so you hadmentioned I never even thought
about an ant graveyard and anant garbage dump.
It sounds to me and I know thatyou had mentioned this you know
the idea of the socialstructures that they have and
the way that they live theirlives.
One of the things that youmentioned was some of the
behaviors like doing surgery andyou know, tell us a little bit
(14:41):
about some of the interestingthings that you know.
Let's say, if I wasinvestigating it for myself or
if I was a parent, then I waslike, hmm, you know, what's my
kid going to learn by havingsome ants in a thing on his desk
or her desk?
What would we be seeing on adaily basis?
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Yeah, for sure.
I think one of the biggestthings that is most obvious and
a lot of times when I show thisto people they'll be like wait,
sorry, you're telling me theants did this by themselves Is
that the ants.
What they do is that they'llorganize the entire nest and
where everything is based onenvironmental conditions like
humidity, like temperature.
So, for example, for most antsgenerally, the eggs need the
(15:21):
most water because they havereally thin membranes.
They drought very easily, sothey'll select the wettest part
of the nest.
That's where the eggs are.
And then, as an add-on to that,it's like well, the queen lays
eggs and then.
So maybe, instead of moving theeggs all around, we'll just
move the queen near into achamber, near like the egg
chamber as well, and they'llhave for, for example, a
(15:43):
distribution where cocoons orpupae they're okay with drier
areas, they'll be in a dry area,and then so, for example, with
different types of foods, likeseeds, for a lot of harvester
ant species, they'll find a dryarea of the nest.
The idea is that they don'twant them to rot or to germinate
as basically a granary, andthen you'll even have some
species, even even species inthe US and Canada, where they
(16:05):
have a strategy.
Where do you know how maltingworks?
You've heard of malt before.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Like malt liquor, yeah for sure.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
So the idea is that you take some seeds, usually
barley, and then you let themgerminate a little bit and that
makes them a lot softer and itcreates a lot of sugar.
So some of the ants havefigured out how to do something
similar for a lot of the harderseeds that they're digesting,
and so what you'll see is thatyou'll see ants move larger
seeds into a wet area, waituntil it starts sprouting, and
(16:33):
then they'll go in and empty itout and carve it out.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
But they're not brewing their own beer down
there.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
They're not brewing their own beer.
Not yet, not yet they do maketheir own bread.
They do make their own bread,though.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Really.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Yeah, You'll have some ants where they'll chew
that up with an enzyme and itbreaks down the starches into
sugar and it's basically likeit's almost like a cookie dough,
basically, but for ants.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
That's crazy.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Another really interesting thing.
This is always something thatpeople don't believe, but like
being able to potty train yourants.
Okay, when you live in reallyhigh colony densities, normally
what becomes a risk is disease,right.
So ants have a lot ofsophisticated ways to prevent
disease.
You have some species where,for example, they'll go outside,
they'll collect some types oftree resin and they'll spray it
(17:18):
with their own venom and itcombines to create an antiseptic
and they'll cover their nestswith that.
And then so the idea is thatlet's say there's a forager from
outside, let's say that on theoff chance they've contacted
some sort of disease or pathogenon the way back, just by
walking for their nest, they'regetting sanitized because it's
covered in this antiseptic Like.
(17:39):
Another example is thegraveyards we were talking about
earlier.
So generally ants, they want toput dead bodies and dead things
in garbage as far away from thenest as possible and they want
to make it so that it'ssomewhere that's dry so it
doesn't rot and fester basicallywith some other disease.
So one thing you get to see isthat you get to watch the ants.
(17:59):
Normally they'll pick a side ofthe outworld that's far away
from the nest that's dry andthey'll put all the garbage
there.
And then the fun part is theants.
They communicate with eachother using like different
chemical cues, and one of thosechemical cues is something along
the lines of okay, this isgarbage, you have to put it in
the garbage pile.
And so one thing you can do,you can put a little jar in a
(18:19):
foraging area, for example, andthen you put the ant's garbage
inside the jar and they'll thinkokay, I have to put the garbage
in the garbage pile, and itjust so happens that it's moved
into this little jar.
I'll keep putting garbage inthe jar.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Taking the hint.
So what constitutes, other than, I would assume, their waste?
I mean, what is ant garbage,like wrappers from pizza boxes?
What are we talking about herethat they're putting over there?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, so a lot of it is going to be poop.
One funny thing, one recentdiscovery, is that there are
scientists that have createdthis whole model that has helped
them figure out how ants choosewhich room to be, like the
designated toilet room A lot oftimes times.
So ants, generally they'll eatsome, they need some sort of
carbohydrates.
Normally that's like sugarslike think like maple syrup or
(19:06):
honey or nectar, and then theyneed protein.
So and for when you're little,that's really in the form of
other insects.
So a lot of what they'rethrowing away is shells of other
insects, so maybe like like apiece of a cricket that they
couldn't get to, or like thewing of like a fly.
So ants, a lot of ants, they'llspin a little cocoon before they
(19:26):
emerge.
It's kind of like they grow upin a similar way butterflies do,
through complete metamorphosisand they'll have a little pile
of like cocoon casings, forexample, and that'll be part of
the waste.
Sometimes some ants will uselike sand as basically a sponge
to pick up liquids and then soyou'll see a pile of like, also
(19:47):
just like sticky sand, and it'sstuff that they used it to move
around, some sugar, and thenit's they've trunk all of it and
it's sticky.
It's gross.
They'll throw it away.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
So tell me about the surgeries.
I have to know what.
What kind of surgery are theydoing on each other down there?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
where, in a leg for example, they'll figure out
whether to do an amputation andthen whether or not to apply
antibiotics directly to thewound, whether or not they have
to sanitize or, for example,spray acid onto the wound as
well or the surrounding area.
But there's a recent discoverywhere certain diseases like one
of them is called pseudomonasit's something that affects
humans as well, so there's bigoutbreaks in hospitals all the
(20:42):
time.
But it seems that it's adisease where, when ants are
infected alone, the survivalrate is something like 8%.
8% of them will survive aftertwo weeks.
But when they're in a groupwhere they're actively like, oh,
they find an infection, they'llcut off that part of the limb,
they'll apply antibiotics to it.
(21:03):
The survival rate jumps tosomething like 80% 90%.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
That's crazy, that's just amazing.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
I thought this was really funny.
I also for this disease.
Specifically, I looked it upwhat like the regular survival
rate for people was like in ourhospitals?
It's somewhere in the 60% range.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
So it's something that they're apparently doing
better than we are.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Apparently.
Apparently they've got.
They got this, they got abetter system down than we do.
Okay, so let's let's talk aboutkind of the like I mentioned.
I have not had the best of luckkeeping fish, despite doing
tons of research.
Maybe I'm making it toocomplicated in some instances,
but something that I had read,and I think it was on your
website, talked about that, onceyou have your setup and
(21:52):
appropriate setup, that it's nothorribly time consuming.
Because I'm thinking about kids, and as much as a child might
be interested in caring for apet, their time commitment is
probably not what we might wantit to be as parents sometimes.
So what all is involved, let'ssay, whether it's on a daily or
weekly, monthly, however oftenwe have to intervene in this
(22:14):
environment that we've createdonce we get it set up.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, so generally ant keeping it's a really easy
hobby, and the reason is becausethe ants are doing most of the
work for you.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Generally all you have to do it takes around five
minutes a week.
Number one give them water.
That's twice a week.
You give them some sugars andthat's usually like a maple
syrup or honey.
That can be like a drop on likea tinfoil plate.
There's also a lot of likeautomatic feeders available.
Where it becomes you, you fillit every two weeks or so and
then you give them like a pieceof an insect so that normally
that can be like a piece of amealworm from like a pet store
(22:45):
or like a cricket or even likeif there's like a fly air house
and you catch it and you throwit in.
They'll eat it.
One really nice thing about antsand so I'm someone who has to
travel a lot for work and alsobecause my family lives five
hours away, but most ants andthis is especially in the
northern hemisphere, wouldn'tapply as much in Texas.
But, for example, normally inthe winter, when it gets cold,
(23:11):
the ants, they go into ahibernative state.
It's something called diapause.
They basically slow down, thebabies stop growing, the adults
they stop going out and foragingand it's like a very deep sleep
, or at least not as muchactivity for a couple of months.
And one thing you can do.
For example, let's say thatyou're not able to take care of
your ant colony for a while,throw them in the fridge For
them.
They'll act as if winter hasarrived, so they'll slow down
(23:34):
and everything All you have togive them is water, and then say
, at a better time of year let'ssay, or let's say that you're
just going vacation for a coupleof months or you'll be out of
your house for a couple ofmonths.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
And you can't find an ant sitter Right.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
You come back, you take them out of the fridge and
they'll resume life as ifspringtime just came back.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Wow, how long can they stay like that?
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Generally speaking, around like four or five months
up to Wow.
Generally speaking, around fouror five months up to Wow.
Generally, the time periodwe're giving them here is around
three, four months.
I am from Canada and I knowthat in the States most of them
need a lot less than that orwould work with a lot less than
that.
But even in parts of Californiawe're talking about it could be
(24:21):
in the fridge for three monthspretty easily.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Oh wow.
All right.
So I noticed on your websitethat and I love the resources on
there there's so much to read,there's so much to educate
yourself, and it's nice to kindof have that number one from a
reliable source and to have itin one place and I like that you
kind of guided people towards,like beginner this is, you know,
this is where a beginner mightstart.
(24:44):
So let's let's talk a littlebit about species, Cause my, my
experience with ants living inTexas uh, you know, growing up,
yes, the ants were fascinating.
They were.
I don't know what ants theywere, they didn't bite, they
didn't sting, they didn't invadeyour house, they were kind of
outside doing their thing.
You know, kind of like wecalled them picnic ants and that
was kind of it and they werefine.
(25:05):
But here fire ants are thescourge of my existence.
As a matter of fact, I've gotfire ant bites all over my feet
because I was accidentallystanding in some.
It's just like a constant thing,and I had seen something
somewhere that was talking aboutpeople keeping fire ants as
pets.
So I guess what I want to knowis what kind of species are we
(25:26):
talking about here?
And I also noticed on yourwebsite when I was looking at
the actual like ordering ants,that there were specific states,
like Georgia only.
And so how does that work?
We just can't like randomlypull some invasive species from
somewhere in the world and youknow, oops, it got out.
(25:46):
You know that probably wouldn'tbe good, right.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Gotcha, yeah, so I guess there's a couple of
questions.
The first thing is like whatanswer are we normally selling?
So, generally on our website,we're selling species that are
native to especially Canada anda lot of them from the States,
and species that are like, maybenot native but they're very
established.
So think about, like rockpigeons, for example, they're
(26:09):
not native in every single city,but they're going to be there
in every single city and they'regoing to be species that
theoretically, you could findoutside and if they get out it's
not going to be a very big deal.
That's generally what we'reworking with in terms of the
species on our website and wetake care where species that are
particularly able to becomepests pharaoh ants especially,
for example we generally stayaway from If someone has an
(26:31):
experience.
We'd rather not give someone anexperience where there's a risk
of anything bad happening inother parts of their life
because of their pet.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
So in terms of the question you asked on, like
restrictions, especially interms of the hobby, so there's a
lot of restrictions on antkeeping, especially in North
America, and it's because of thefire ant, it's because I think,
on some some agriculturalshipments from Argentina, like
decades ago, arrived in, arrivedin the States, and then now
(27:02):
there's a bunch of invasivespecies actually that come from
parts of South America and thenso the like the US government
and the Canadian government,they're afraid of this.
It's pretty fair in terms ofgenerally the legislation is
that in Canada you're not ableto get ants from outside the
country, rather it's verydifficult, we do, but there's a
long approval process.
And then in the country,whether it's very difficult, we
(27:24):
do, but there's a long approvalprocess.
And then in the Statesgenerally you're only able to
get species from within your ownstate, or at least ones that
like are native to your ownstate.
So that's what the restrictionswhere we'll have like state
specific, like ability topurchase, that's generally where
that comes from.
I think that a lot of people andobviously there's a bias here I
think a lot of people in thehobby, more so in Canada than in
(27:46):
the States, argue that themeasures they take are a little
bit extreme.
So, for example, one of them isthat, by default, all ants that
are from outside the country arefully banned here in Canada,
and obviously the fear is thatthey're going to come out,
they're going to become invasivespecies, and that's a
relatively reasonable risk forsome species of ants, but
(28:07):
there's other species of ants,for example, where there's ants
from the tropics, where they'renot going to survive under 70
degrees Fahrenheit, and here inCanada we're getting negative 50
degrees every winter, and itdoesn't matter whether you're
using Fahrenheit or Celsius atthat point, and the ants are
100% going to die.
But it's definitely a changingbody of legislation, and
(28:30):
generally both governments, Iwould say, are loosening up a
little bit in terms ofaccommodating for ant keepers,
both as a hobby and as anindustry.
What's interesting, though, isthat if you compare what ant
keeping looks like here in NorthAmerica to what it looks like
in Europe and Asia, it's acompletely different landscape,
because generally, in both ofthose areas, they have a lot
(28:51):
less experience with invasivespecies, and then so generally
for them, instead of having likeeverything is default banned,
everything is default legal tobring in, and so in a lot of
parts of Europe.
For example, you'll find antsin like a third of like all pet
stores, and a lot of the bigcities will just have.
We'll have.
We'll even have like antspecific stores that you can
(29:12):
just go into.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
So I would say it's a phenomenon where it's
definitely smaller, in NorthAmerica too.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Yeah, and because of the fire ant, yeah.
So if I mean, obviously, as anadult human, if I wanted to
pursue this as a, you know, ahobby or have have ants as pets,
I can do my homework as toacquisition and habitat and
what's allowed, how, what theprocess is to get them.
But if you were advisingparents?
(29:40):
So my child came home with abook on ants and now they want
ants as pets.
What would be a good chronologyor progression or steps, like
first step, I should do this,this, this just on a high level,
to go from the idea toacquisition.
That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
So, generally, what I would advise is, I would say,
for parents with kidsspecifically, it would usually
be better, especially if it's ato like, find a reputable dealer
.
There's several in the States,there's us, there's us in Canada
, and, for example, like AntsCanada, they have something
called the global ant nurserywhere, if you like, look up your
(30:20):
city, they'll they'll link youto someone who, to someone who
has ants, who's local to you,that's willing to sell them
right.
Generally speaking, ant keepingis something that doesn't need
a lot to start.
They start in little test tubes, play little colonies, and what
I would say is that you reallydon't need anything other than
that.
What I would say, though, isthat, for parents with kids,
(30:41):
especially if you have theoption to and maybe this means
paying a little bit extra for tostart with a larger colony,
that's generally going to bebetter, and the reason is
because larger colonies aregoing to be a lot more active in
the wild.
When they have three workers,they're going to be scared,
they're not going to go out,because then they're risking a
third of their workforce.
When they have like 25 to 50,which is, I would say, a more
(31:04):
ideal range then they're goingto be a lot more engaging to
watch, and one option is just tolike so.
Have you ever seen ants withwings?
Speaker 1 (31:13):
I have yes.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
So those are ant queens and ant males, basically,
and they're going out, they'reflying, they're mating and
they're picking a new spot tostart a colony.
One easy way, especially ifyou're on a budget, is just to
look for one of those it'scalled a nuptial flight Just to
collect a queen.
What you do is you take alittle test tube, you fill it
halfway with water, you block itwith cotton, you put the queen
(31:38):
inside, you plug it up and thenshe'll start the first, like
she'll raise the firstgeneration of workers herself.
Maybe two months later you'llhave a small colony with a
couple of workers and you justfeed them and grow them slowly
for there.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
So this is a so you're just talking about
getting something, because I wasgoing to ask you about, like,
can I just collect an ant fromoutside and start my own family?
Speaker 2 (32:01):
So the answer is yes, but only if it's a queen.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
OK, you'd have to know that those are those big
ants with wings normally.
Right.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
So it is something you can start for free.
It is going to be a little bitless engaging at first, just
because the analogy that I likeis that let's say you want a
tree, let's say you want like alittle tree, right?
Or you have a couple options.
You can buy a tree, you can buya sapling, you can get a seed,
and so in this case, generally Iwould advise getting like a
(32:34):
small to mid-sized colony.
That's the equivalent of asapling.
But if you'd like and this isgoing to be a lot more
budget-friendly you can lookoutside, try to find a seed or a
queen in this case and start itfrom scratch on your own, and
for some, people, that's veryrewarding too.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Yeah, yeah, it just depends on how.
Are you going for the instantgratification of all the
activity or are you willing towait it out?
And some people are they likestarting from scratch and look,
I started from just this onething and it kind of built to
this, so yeah, but I would guessthat's probably not the best
way for kids, because kids Idon't think would have the
patience.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
That's what I mean.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
If you think your kids are patient, you can go for
either.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Yeahbtful, they're pretty rare, yeah yeah.
So when we first talked wetalked about ants as gifts and
and many times on our show we'vetalked about giving pets as
gifts and you know, in general,not a great idea can be a great
idea in certain circumstanceswhen all the homework and the
forethought and whatever elsehas gone into that.
But what are your thoughts?
You know we're kind of goinginto the holidays.
If somebody is listening tothis episode and thinking, oh,
(33:45):
you know, that would be a greatgift for my kid, what would be
your you know do's and don'ts orwhat would be your advice to
them.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Yeah, well, I think that one thing that I do want to
bring up.
This is especially for families.
I've definitely noticed thatthere's a difference between, or
that there are people who, hey,I want this as a gift for my
kid, I think they'd be reallyinterested, and there's people
who, hey, I really want this andI can use my kid as an excuse
to get this.
So I think there's definitely asplit there and I think what I
(34:13):
would say the biggest thing isto make sure that there's
someone who is, number one, ableto take care of the ants and,
number two, willing to take careof the ants, and, in the case
where you're giving thisspecifically just for your kid,
it's making sure they've takenthe time to research, and I
would say that especially thatthey've brought this up or asked
to brought this up or asked to.
(34:37):
I think, generally, if you'reunsure whether or not your kid
is looking to get into antkeeping, it's generally not the
best idea just to spring it ontothem.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Yeah, maybe get a book about ants or something
like that.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Right.
One alternative, even I thinkin that case might just be
getting some of the supplies interms of oh, here's a little ant
farm, there's no ants inside.
If it's something you'reinterested in, this is something
they can pursue later.
It would be the equivalent ofgetting a little empty fish tank
or, for example, like youmentioned, where you're getting
(35:06):
things like a little book ormaybe.
I know there's a lot ofant-related video games out
there or related and relatedlike board games even.
There's a lot of options.
But generally I would say thatgetting the actual pet, unless
it's something that's beendiscussed before, isn't
something that's great, justlike under the Christmas tree,
right, Especially unsuspecting.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yeah, Especially if you're not willing to then take
on the responsibility for that.
Because if the kid has nointerest in it whatsoever and
they're like, yeah, I don't likethat, I don't want that Ew bugs
, Then now what are you going todo?
You know somebody needs.
It's a living thing.
You need to take care of it.
So be prepared that you nowhave an ant farm, mom or dad or
whoever.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Right.
That's why I make thedistinction where we definitely
do get a lot of people where,just from the way they talk,
it's like, oh, we definitely doget a lot of people where, just
from the way they talk, it'slike, oh, I really want an ant
farm.
But I think it'd be easier tosay that my kid did.
One other thing that we do, andthis is especially for things
(36:11):
like gifts but we have a vouchersystem where, instead of buying
ants, someone can just buy alittle code on the back and
it'll let you redeem a freecolony of ants somewhere down
the line, where it's somethingthat you skip.
A lot of the issues in terms ofokay, what if they don't want
ants?
What if something changeshalfway through?
What if, for example, lifecircumstances, you're not able
to take care of these?
Or even just and this is morerelevant here in the north, but
(36:32):
it's really cold in the winterwhat if we'd rather start this
in spring, where shipping isgoing to be less expensive?
And in that case, instead ofgetting them a little colony, it
can just be hey, here's alittle voucher, it's a little
code, and if you want to get, ifyou're interested, once you're
ready for a colony.
Here we've basicallypre-purchased something for you
and you can redeem it anytimeyou want repurchase something
(36:53):
for you and you can redeem itanytime you want.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
And I'm assuming I could get a voucher for, you
know, for the habitats or forwhatever, like you know, just a
voucher from your website sothat people, you know they could
use it for what they need whenthey're ready to move forward.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Yeah, that's correct.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Okay, and just for point of clarification, just to
make sure I'm understanding this.
So since you're based in Canada, can I order?
I know I could obviously orderequipment from you.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Can I order ants from you, or I could order the
equipment and then I would go toa resource to find somebody
local to get ants for me in theUS.
So, generally speaking, you'renot going to be able to get live
ants from us.
We do have like a sizablenetwork of folks in the States
and that's why there are someants on our website where it
says you're able to receive themIf you're in the States.
It's because we've partneredwith someone locally in those
States to send them out.
Got it?
As I mentioned before, there'salso a bunch of resources in
(37:46):
terms of even if you look onCraigslist, if you look in
different forums, if you go tothe Global Ant Nursery Project I
mentioned, they'll connect youwith someone local who has ants
for sale, and there's a coupleretailers in the States as well
that'll have the permits to shipants around.
But generally the barrier toentry isn't too high.
There might be a little bit ofsearching that needs to be done.
(38:09):
Still, we're working on apartnership with the States to
make that a lot easier in thefuture.
But yeah, it's something thatyou wouldn't be able to get from
us directly, at least not theants themselves.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Yeah, but everything, because what I liked is just
the variety of the.
Well, and obviously we talkedabout the appropriateness of the
size and the type of habitat,but just it was.
It was more than I thought itwas going to be.
I figured when I went to lookat the actual habitat that it
would be like, okay, you can getthis or this or this.
But there was a lot and I likethe little log ones.
I thought those were super cool.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
They are no.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Because they're attractive and, you know, have
all the little compartments forthem to do their thing.
It's like a little art pieceright.
Yeah, exactly Exactly.
Is there a you know, I wouldassume when you identify ones
that would be more for beginners, it's because of ease of care,
or does it have to do with theiractivities?
Like, are they that differentin what they're doing and how
(39:03):
they, once they're in theirhabitat?
I mean, are they all kind ofliving their lives as ants, or
do different ones have likecompletely different types of
activity that they do?
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Generally they'll have very different activities,
but generally that doesn'taffect the care significantly.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Yeah, Like two families and houses.
Let's say one of them has likea pantry, one of them doesn't.
They're still going to gooutside to the groceries by the
same things.
They're just doing differentthings inside.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Right.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
And you don't have to interfere with that.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Okay, let's, let's flip it up a little bit.
So I've got a habitat full ofcats and a habitat full of
horses.
Obviously, horses and cats aredoing very different things in
their lives.
They eat different things.
Whatever is, are the differenttypes of ants that different as
far as like, oh, these are moreinteresting to watch because
they do this, this and this, orthese are more interesting to
(39:56):
watch because they're moresocial, more aggressive.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Yeah, I'm just curious as to the like would it
be?
Would a person have twodifferent types of ant colonies
because this one is cool becauseit does this and this one is
cool because it does that?
Speaker 2 (40:10):
So generally there's two categories of ants.
I'm going to categorize them intwo portions now.
So generally there's twocategories of ants.
I'm going to categorize them intwo portions now and some of
them are generalist ants and theother ones are specialist ants.
Generally speaking, generalistants are going to all have very
similar behaviors.
They're going to all have verysimilar diets.
They're going to be easier tocare for and that's what we
typically recommend forbeginners, but they do.
(40:30):
There is an option where, let'ssay, they're confident and they
like how the hobby is going,where there's a lot of specialty
species where their carerequirements are going to be
very different.
They're going to be like theequivalent difference between a
horse and a cat, but generallythose aren't what's being
suggested to people entering thehobby right out of the gates.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Well, like keeping fish right.
The difference between keepinga goldfish and a saltwater,
something or other, where it's awhole different needs different
lifestyle, everything else.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Right, but, for example, most of the freshwater
fish, they're going to besimilar enough where they might
do better if you make XYZadjustment, but generally
they're all going to eat similarfoods Not all of them, but most
of them are going to eatsimilar foods and anything that
doesn't is generally not goingto be given to a first-time ant
keeper around the gates.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Okay, that makes sense, okay, good.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Generally, 95% of species do great with, just like
a sugar mix insects.
Even the ones that eat seeds,for example, they do so
primarily optionally, so theycan take sugar, they can take
insects, and if you want to givethem seeds that's certainly an
option, but they don't have tohave them to thrive.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
Okay, good to know.
Good to know.
So your YouTube channel Downthe Ant Hill and I was watching
some videos and they were veryentertaining, but the one with
the leaf cutter ants I thoughtwas fascinating.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
So I Run Down the Ant Hill.
It's primarily it's just alittle short from content about,
like the ecology, aboutdifferent aspects of ants and
ant society that peoplegenerally wouldn't be guessing
right.
The tagline is that we'rebringing you the stories of ants
, we're on YouTube or onInstagram or on TikTok.
Generally, okay, we do prettybad on YouTube but on.
(42:27):
Instagram and TikTok we'rerelatively more popular.
But, for example, one of ourmore recent videos talked about
leaf cutter ants and it comesfrom like a recent not that
recent, but it comes from like asemi-recent study where it
turns out that leaf cutter antsand this is collectively, not
any individual colony or species, but collectively they have
(42:48):
like the equivalent carbonemissions of like a small
country, and the reason is justbecause they're cutting out so
many leaves, they're turningthem into mushrooms, they're
producing a lot of compost orlike manure equivalent where
it's, it has like a measurableimpact on, like the global
climate.
Leaf cutter ants are definitelya group of ants that are a lot
more specialized in terms oflike what the keeping looks like
(43:11):
.
They're not a species wegenerally would suggest for
beginners.
The idea is that, instead ofgoing out and hunting for
insects, instead of going outand looking for sugars, what
leafcutter ants do is that theycut pieces of leaves, little
plants and even insect poop.
They'll bring it back in andthey form a fungus that is
reliant on them.
(43:31):
They basically fertilize thefungus.
They even weed it so they'lluse like specific, like
ant-specific pesticides to liketake out like other types of
fungus or bacteria they don'twant in their little gardens and
then they basically eat thefungus, the mushroom.
It's the only thing they eat.
And there's little little onesthat are native all the way up
(43:54):
to like they eat.
And there's little little onesthat are native all the way up
to like New York, and then thebigger ones generally atta,
that's what they're called arenative all the way up to like, I
think, like Southern or evenlike Middle Texas.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Okay, yeah, I thought it was fascinating in that
video how smart they are to haveadapted their environment the
example that you were talkingabout, how they build their
little mounds on the ground sothat they can basically release
the carbon dioxide, so theydon't basically don't gas
themselves, and it's like that'spretty, pretty amazing how
they've adapted to survive.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
And it's funny because so what they do is that
they build little vents rightand so air comes in one way and
it flushes out all the carbondioxide and all the.
It basically freshens the airon the inside of the nest, and
it's interesting because theseare structures that humans have
Like.
For them it's basically like aslightly more advanced chimney
or like an air poweredventilation system, and it's
(44:52):
something that we've invented,like humans, maybe in the last
couple of hundred years, andsomething that they've had for
millions of years before we did.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Incredible.
That's incredible.
Well, zach, I have to say, whenyou first reached out, I was
like, yeah, I don't want to doanything about ants, I don't
like ants, and now I'm justcompletely fascinated by them.
I just thank you so much forreaching out and for caring
about ants and caring abouteducating the world about them,
and not only their entertainmentand quality value as pets, but
(45:22):
just their impact on theenvironment, on the world.
I just think it's so importantthat we learn about the
creatures that are in our worldmore than we take the time to do
on our own, I should say so.
Thank you so much for beinghere on the show.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
Yeah, and we'll definitely put some links
obviously put links to yourwebsite and to the nursery that
you mentioned.
So I'll make sure I get thoselinks in our show notes and for
everybody that's listening.
Again, we don't like to giveanything as pets to somebody
that is an unsuspectingrecipient, but for those of you
who might be looking for a petthat is self-contained, easy to
(45:59):
maintain, do your homework, seeif it's a fit for you, but you
know, ants might be the thing.
It might be a great alternativeto keep you company and keep
you entertained.
So check it out.
And thank you for listening toanother episode of Starlight Pet
Talk.
We'll see you next week.
And thank you for listening toanother episode of Starlight Pet
Talk.
We'll see you next week.
Thanks for listening toStarlight Pet Talk.
Be sure to visit our website atstarlightpettalkcom for more
(46:21):
resources and be sure to followthis podcast on your favorite
podcast app so you'll never missa show.
And hey, if you like this show,text someone right now and say
I've got a podcastrecommendation.
You need to check the show outand tell them to listen and let
you know what they think.
Don't forget to tune in nextweek and every week for a brand
new episode of Starlight PetTalk and if you don't do
(46:45):
anything else this week, giveyour pets a big hug from us.
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