Lap of Love: The Case for Gentle, At-Home Pet Hospice & Euthanasia

Episode Transcript
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Amy Castro, MA, CSP (00:00):
When we're facing the end of a beloved
pet's life, the journey wecreate for ourselves and our pet
is as important as thedecisions we make along the way.
For many, this journeyculminates in a final car ride
to the vet, and while mostveterinary practices strive to
make this process intimate andcomforting, there's an
alternative that many petparents aren't aware of.
Today, we're shedding light onthis overlooked option and

(00:22):
exploring how we can provideeven more peace and dignity to
our pets in their final days andmoments.
Stay tuned.
You're listening to StarlightPet Talk, a podcast for pet
parents who want the best petcare advice from cat experts,
dog trainers, veterinarians andother top pet professionals who
will help you live your verybest life with your pets.

(00:43):
Who will help you live yourvery best life with your pets.
We also share inspiring rescueand adoption stories from people
who've taken their love of petsto the next level by getting
involved in animal welfare.
My name is Amy Castro and I'mthe founder and president of
Starlight Outreach and Rescueand a columnist for Pet Age
magazine.
I've rescued thousands ofanimals and helped people just
like you find the right pet fortheir family.

(01:03):
My mission is to help petparents learn all the ways that
they can care for, live with andeven have fun with their pets,
so they can live their very bestlives and their pets can too.
Welcome to Starlight Pet Talk.
I'm your host, amy Castro, andmy guest today is Dr Mary
Gardner.
And for Dr Gardner, there isnothing better than a dog with a

(01:23):
gray muzzle or a skinny old catA woman after my own heart.
Her professional goal is toincrease awareness of, and
medical care for, geriatricveterinary patients and to help
make their final stage of lifeas peaceful as possible,
surrounded with dignity andsupport for everybody involved.
A University of Floridagraduate, she discovered her

(01:43):
niche in end-of-life care, whichinspired her to found Lap of
Love, which has more than 350veterinarians around the country
who are dedicated to veterinaryhospice and euthanasia in the
home.
Dr Gardner has also publishedtwo books on caring for
geriatric pets, which I thinkeverybody needs to check out,
but the first one is called it'sNever Long Enough, which is

(02:04):
about dogs.
And then, for us cat lovers,nine lives are not enough for
cats.
So, dr Gardner, thank you somuch for being here with me
today.
I really appreciate it.

Mary Garnder, DVM (02:14):
I'm excited.
I love me some cat lovers.

Well, you know it's funny.
So the podcast for those whoare listening who may not know,
is that our podcast is calledStarlight Pet Talk because our
animal rescue is calledStarlight Outreach and Rescue
and we didn't start offintending to be a cat rescue and
we're not.
I mean we've got donkeys,horses, dogs.
But because of just the sheernature of trying to run a rescue

(02:39):
out of a five bedroom suburbanhouse, it's like where can I
stash animals in bedrooms?
And it's kind of hard to stashpuppies in bedrooms or donkeys,
or donkeys.
Yeah, exactly, but you knowcats and kittens you know, I
think.
I had somebody living in everybathtub along the way.
So yeah, but we're expanding.
We're expanding out here at ourrescue ranch.
So this subject, I think, isone and I was talking to Dr

(03:06):
Gardner before we get startedabout one of my last experiences
with euthanasia with mypersonal pets.
But this is a very tricky timefor pet owners and I think
people really struggle with whatto do.
And you know how is it that youdecided to start the business
Lap of Love and what got you sointerested in this final stage
of a pet's life?

interested in this final stage of a pet's
life.
So great question, and I thinkit's best actually if I start
with my pre-veterinary life.
Sure, so I actually did notgrow up thinking I wanted to
become a veterinarian like manydo.
I loved animals, but I was notthe academic nerdy person.
Not the academic nerdy person,but I uh.

(03:47):
I actually was in um, the, uh,the software industry.
So I was a business analyst anda software designer, uh, in
many ways.
So I worked for a very largesoftware company for about a
decade and it was, yeah, so itwas during one of my trips where
I cause I had to travel a lotfor that job and I had to.
Uh, I had an older dog.
She was about 12 at the time,her name was Snow White and she

(04:09):
was a Samoyed and so I had totravel for work.
So I I left her in the care ofmy brother and so he had two
Rottweilers.
He was putting his house up forsale, so he had to leave cause
they were doing a showing orwhatever, and so he put his all
three dogs in this very largepen area that he had out back
like 20 by 20, like huge thing.

(04:29):
And when he came back he didn'treally notice.
But while he was gone they allgot in a fight and Snow White
sustained a lot of injuries.
So she had 72 bite wounds and abroken jaw and, um, I'm not
against Rottweilers, but whenyou have an old Samoan against
two Rottweilers and you know itcan it's not totally fair.
So she was in the hospital forabout three weeks, in and out

(04:52):
with with wound care, you know,infection, the broken jaw and
everything.
And one day they called me.
She was in the hospital andthey just said you should
probably come and visit herCause we had to do a blood
transfusion and I didn't knowwhat that meant, you know.
So I I go, you know, to the, tothe clinic and they bring me to
the treatment area and she's onthe ground and she's like
yellow and she wasn't doing well.
She wasn't as happy to see meand I sat with her for a few

(05:14):
hours and at 6 0, 1 PM she justdied in my arms.
And that just that just rocked,rocked my world.
That was my first, my first dog, you know, my first heart dog,
shall we say.
You know, I I always say I'm alittle polygamist because I got
a lot of heart dogs and cats,you know, but she was my first
one, and so I went through a lotof grief for quite some time,

(05:36):
and I I just literally actuallywoke up one day and thought, I
wonder, you know, I had such anamazing experience with that
clinic and they were so lovelythere, and I said I wonder what
it what it takes to become a vet.
So I looked into it and I said,well, I need to get some
classes.
So, while I was still working,I took some night classes and
weekend classes, and I tooksomething I needed to get for my

(05:57):
first degree and then applied,and when I was 31, I got into
vet school.
So the death of Snow White iswhat was the genesis of me going
to vet school?
Like just the grief that Iencountered.
I did not think, though, that Iwas going to do end of life.
That was just the reason why Iwent to vet school.
So I got out in 2008, when Iwas 35, and I went to private

(06:19):
practice, which I loved.
Pet vet animal hospital inDeerfield Beach, florida Great
little clinic.
I loved everybody.
Pet Vet Animal Hospital inDeerfield Beach, florida Great
little clinic.
I loved everybody, loved theclients.
I was not burnt out but Iwasn't making the impact that I
wanted to make.
So I was actually consideringgoing into the industry.
So, whether it's working for atechnology company that services
the vet space, whether it's fora pharmaceutical company,

(06:40):
whatever, so I was just lookinglike maybe my business
background I'm better suited forthat company, whatever.
So I was just looking likemaybe my business background I'm
better suited for that.
So at the time my girlfriendand classmate, dr Danny McVitie,
was an emergency vet up inTampa, so that's about four
hours North of me, and she wasdoing in-home euthanasia on the
side and it's it's somethingthat's been around for decades,
amy, like it's.
It's not common, but there's.

(07:05):
We had one in South Floridathat I would refer to every now
and then, but I never considereddoing it as a job.
I always thought that soundsreally depressing, right?
So so she called me up andshe's like hey, I'm doing this
on the side, I'm doing maybe 20appointments a month and
everything's very manual for me.
And she's like you know, itmight be something you're
interested in doing, but I needsoftware.
So she says I know.

You know how to design and build.

And, and you know, a lot of vets reach out to
me to how to get started and dothis and so she was actually
the one that first was doing it,and so I drove over to Tampa
and we just sat and she startedtalking about the experience
that we can provide in the home.
And I thought back to Snow Whiteand I thought there I went.
You know, she died in my armsat a clinic.
I didn't know what to do withher body afterwards.

(07:46):
I did.
You know, it's just.
It was just horrible.
And not that the clinic was bad, but just you know it was so.
Experience is not what you isnot ideal, it's not ideal, right
, it's not ideal.
So I thought it.
It, literally the death of SnowWhite, is what could change my
world, where I go to vet school,you know, like after leaving a

(08:08):
good career, then if I couldmake it better for a family,
I've come full circle.
So I said, and Danny, you know,the goal was always to grow the
company larger than us, and sowe always wanted to to be the
background and the and thesystem, the support system for
veterinarians who want toprovide this but they don't know
how to do the marketing, theydon't know the software, they
don't know.

(08:28):
You know they just want to do abeautiful appointment, not
answer their phone.
You know, try to.
You know do credit cardpayments, all the things that
come involved.
So early on I started buildingthe software and that was 2010.
So Danny was doing the work forabout 10 months before I
started, and so in 2010 wasreally when we jumpstarted it to

(08:49):
grow nationwide, and now wehave probably close to 400 vets
it's over 350.
It's a lot, and so we have awonderful support center that
answers our phones.
We have great veterinarians outthere.
We're mostly in a little bitmore populated areas, so like
Houston South.
Florida, la, seattle, there's aton and it's been awesome so I

(09:12):
never looked back.
It's been whatever 14 years nowand I absolutely love end of
life care.
People ask me all the time ifI'm depressed, because one would
assume that, right, amy, you'rehelping two or three families a
day say goodbye, and I thinkdepression is very different
than sadness.
Right, amy, you're you're,you're helping two or three
families a day say goodbye, and,and I think depression is very
different than sadness, right?
And I say I feel sadness forevery family that I see, just

(09:32):
like if you were to help one ofyour fosters or something that
needed to say goodbye.
You're going to be sad and I'mvery sad for those families.
But we go to homes where thepet's not good, the pet's sick,
whether it's a physical or abehavioral issue, because
they're separation, anxiety orwhatever it may be, and when we
can provide that end-of-lifecare in the home where they're

(09:54):
comfortable, the owners arecomfortable, it's actually such
a fulfilling feeling so itcounterbalances the sadness.
But I cry all the things and soit's been awesome and all of
our veterinarians really enjoythis work as well.
We get the best hugs.

I bet, I bet Well, and I want to time you
out there for just one second.
Like this is the whole aspectthat I hadn't even thought about
from the standpoint ofeverybody who's listening should
realize that it's never toolate to not that 30 is all that
old.
But there've been many timeslike I'm trying to convince my
daughter to, who just turned 31.
It's like you know, it'd reallybe helpful if we had a vet in
the family with running thisrescue.

(10:30):
It's never too late to change,to change gears, because if
you've got the will you can makeit happen.
You had mentioned the uh, theaspect of, you know, sad versus
depressed, because people willsay all the time like I don't
know how you do it.
You know, with the animals thatwe see, the condition that we
see animals that come in, I mean, I've had fosters that have

(10:50):
literally quit after losing, youknow, a litter of baby kittens
and it's like I get it, but atthe same time it's such a
privilege or, you know, it'sactually comforting to me to
know that at least I was thereand I was able to provide a
certain experience for thatanimal.
You know, when I think about,like I said, infant kittens, we

(11:12):
get a lot of infant kittens anda lot of them don't make it.
But better to be warm and havehad a last meal than to be out
there being torn apart byanimals or under a bush,
freezing and getting rained on,and it's an honor to be part of
the process, I think.

I couldn't agree more.
And we make it so good.
What upsets me the most,believe it or not, as a
veterinarian, is we want thisappointment to go perfectly.
I want it to go perfectly.
But this is deck and this ismedicine and it's not always
perfect.
So we have processes and themedicines we use are as perfect

(11:51):
as they can be, but you're stilldealing with life and and
whatever's going on in the body.
And so if I give the sedationcause, we always sedate our pets
first and you know, if a kittycat is in their arms and they
like jumped because I gave thesedation and it, you know they
might've it was cold or whateverit is.
And they like so many too, amyare, are in so much pain and

(12:13):
owners don't realize it and petsdon't complain.
So then when you do anything,it's called allodynia, where
you're.
You're in so much pain so eventhe lightest touch is is extreme
painful to you.
It's it's a it's an actual thing.
Like I have, I get migraines,and when I have a migraine don't
touch me, cause that is like.
So if a pet squeaks, or youknow, or squeals or whatever,

(12:33):
when we give the sedation, I Ithat bothers me because I I know
the pet's gonna be fine in ahot second, but the owners think
that the pet was suffering, theowners think that was pain and
I don't want that.
Or, you know, if there's somerapid breathing, that happens or
it may take a little bit longer, or it was too fast, like you
know some people are like oh,that was so fast and, you know,

(12:55):
because your pet was really badand it just was on the way, yeah
, or it?
took a really long time.
Well, because whatever you know, blood flow and stuff like that
, so, um, so that's.
What makes me sad is when Ican't deliver absolute
perfection, and sometimes Iliken it to being a pilot, an
airline pilot.
They want the flight to goperfect, but every now and then

(13:18):
you hit turbulence, right, andso the best thing a pilot can do
is get on that phone and talkyou know the speaker tell
everybody, you know expectations, we'll be, you know rumbling
for 10 more minutes and thenwe'll get some smooth air and
communicate.
But they never want that becausethey know there's, you know,
400 souls freaking out in theback Right, and so I always feel
like I'm a pilot in some ways,where I'm just like, oh, here's

(13:40):
some turbulence coming, like,just like, let's get through it
and everything will be fine.
So that's what makes me sad isnot being perfect.

Yeah, yeah, because there's so much riding,
it's the memory that thatperson's going to be left with.
You know, I've experienced alot of you know, but again, both
with personal pets and withother animals, and some
experiences have been have beenbetter than others, for sure.
Yeah, right, right.

(14:10):
So so, from the perspective ofa of a client, cause I one of
the things that I thought wasinteresting.
I hadn't even thought about thehospice care aspect of it and I
know probably every experienceis different, but you know, you
get a call from a client andthey're looking for X, y, z and
what and what's the journey likewith, with, just, maybe take us
through a case, okay.

So there's really two, actually three kinds
, but there's majorly two kindsof appointments.
First is the euthanasia, wherefamilies call us, and 75% of the
families that call us need uswithin 24 hours.
So they need us today ortomorrow, because this is an
appointment you don't reallylike want to book.
You don't book it in advance.

(14:48):
The pet declined, really youknow, badly overnight and they
no longer get up.
Whatever the story is right,because every story is different
how they go through the process.
But families don't like to makean advance appointment for this
.
So the majority of ourappointments are those.
But for those that have a petthat's dealing with either

(15:08):
terminal illness or a lot ofgeriatric conditions that their
pet is dealing with becausethere's never just one, you know
, I mean, it's never justmobility issues yeah, there's,
oh, there's incontinence.
There's kitty cats, 2 am.
They're howling because theyhave cognitive issues, right,
like there's it's.
I always say they're likelittle jalopies.
So they're little jalopies andit's time to bring them into the

(15:30):
shop.
But, as you know, we weretalking privately towards the
end many people don't bring themin to their veterinarian
because they're you know,they're anxious to get in the
car.
It's difficult to get them intothe car.
It's stressful, all the things,and some, you know what, don't
want to hear it.
They almost don't want to hearhow bad their pet is, because

(15:51):
denial Island is a place I'vebeen to myself and the moment,
like they know that their pet'snot good and they kind of just
don't want or they'll just sayhe's getting old.
So uh, sadly, 58% of cats, um,and about 48% of dogs are not
seen by their veterinarian theyear before they die.

So that's massive.

So 58% of kitty cats have not been to
their regular veterinarian theyear before they're euthanized,
and that is so like that's suchan important year.
We could do so much to helpthem, um, as veterinarians.
So, whether it is appetitestimulants, some hydration, uh,
helping a family set their homeup for safety.
So hospice appointments arereally when the pet is so poor

(16:35):
that we'll probably be seekingeuthanasia within three months.
But, dare I say, people stilldon't know what that means,
right, they don't know whathospice means for pets right.

So they're like oh, I don't think they
understand what it means, whatit is for humans.
It's like you know cause you'reso right.

Yeah, you're so right.
I lost my sister a year and ahalf ago to liver failure.
She was in and out of a comaand the doctor came over, and so
I happened to be there when hecame in and he was telling me
that, you know, her liver valuesare so high Like I.
I knew instantly and so I saidshould we be talking about
hospice?
And so he's like, well, that'sreally up to her.
And I'm like, well, she's likein and out of it.

(17:14):
And so for two or three days Iwas there, you know, I was
caring for her, and then finally, towards the end, it was
decided, yes, now let's put herin hospice.
And all they did at that timewas put her on morphine.
And I'm like that's notactually hospice.
There's so much more to hospice.
Even what I was doing for thedays before is more hospice than
morphine.

She needed the morphine.

Correct, but it's caring for them Also.
We could have had betterconversations with her, so while
she was awake we could havesaid hey, alice, you know your
three dogs.
What do we want?
Who want?
Do you want to have care forthem?

And you know, and she was younger, she
didn't have a will or anything.

So there's so many things we could prepare
for for the, for the parents tosay goodbye, all those things
Anyway.
So human hospice still got along way to go.
But what the sad thing is thatpeople associate hospice whether
pet hospice or human hospice,with giving up or it's the end.
The end is near, yes, but it'snot about prolonging suffering

(18:10):
at all.
It's about making sure that upinto the end they live really
good.
So, I want that pet on painmanagement.
I want that pet on appetitestimulus.
I want that pet to get some youknow supportive care, whether
it's in the home.
Like you know, you and I, wecan't take aspirin for 10 years
in a row without hurting ourliver, you know, or kidneys, or
whatever.
Right, but you know what, threemonths before our passing, load

(18:33):
me up on all the drugs Cause Idon't.
There's not enough time to hurtmy liver, right?
So some people are like, ooh,but what about her liver failure
?
You know her liver and I'm likeI don't like, let's make her
feel good, her liver's going tobe fine.
You know, we don't run bloodwork, we don't look at x-rays.
I don't care what the BUN wasyesterday or today.
Is your cat vomiting?
Let's get them on anti-vomitingmedication, like why let them

(18:55):
struggle and suffer withoutgetting the support they need
and then, when it comes time tosay goodbye, they're actually
not like horrible and um, thenumber two thing is sometimes I
do have hospice failures,meaning I kick them out of
hospice because, they start todo better Like.
I had one cat, romeo.
I remember Romeo had lymphomaso we started him on some

(19:16):
steroids, which is, you know, wecall it the silver bullet, and
I'm like, listen, it's not goodlong-term, it can give
pancreatitis.
Romeo was kicking it Six monthslater.
I'm like you need you now needto go to your veterinarian and
make sure that we're not doingworse things to Romeo, because I
think he's actually doingreally well In human hospice.
They found that the sooner weget a person into hospice,
actually not only will they livebetter until the end, they do

(19:39):
live longer.
So it's not prolongingsuffering.
We're actually.
We're actually removingsuffering as best as we can and
in many cases, you know,prolonging the end of life and
making it better.
And so same thing with pets.
Sadly, on average, when we seea pet for hospice, 50% will call
us for euthanasia just twoweeks later.
So I want that.

(20:01):
The reason why I get onpodcasts or write a book because
I want them to see theirveterinarian sooner, because we
can do so much stuff.
Two things make me sad.
One is when the turbulencehappens right, so I don't like
that.
Number two is and no judgmentby this and this is why I wrote
my books, but, like when I go tothe homes, I realized that so
many pets are not seen by theirveterinarian that year before

(20:22):
they died and we could have doneso much.
And it doesn't have to be loadsof money on on blood work and
x-rays and stuff like thatAlthough I do some, you know it
would be great if we did, youknow, but it's they.
They have tile floor andthey're 30, they're 70 pound.
Labradors got arthritis, can'tget up off the bed and they're
like, and they're, and he'swalking around like on ice

(20:43):
skates.
I'm like why didn't we thinkabout yoga mats and bath mats?
Oh, that's a brilliant idea.
Adjusting where they eat, howthey eat, where they sleep,
hygiene you know, when you'vegot an incontinent dog or cat
and they're peeing on themselvesand it smells Well, we could do
a sanitary shave.
Let's get some beard trimmersand clean them up a little bit

(21:04):
so it's easier to wipe them down.
Let's put some baby wipes in ababy wipe warmer so it's warm to
the little old girl, the potatochip cat, you know, that's got
no body fat Like there's.
I have a list of things that wecould do.
So that's what we said is thatwe could help, and so because
families aren't going to theirdoctor is why I wrote my books,
because I'm like all right, Igotta, I gotta write a book that
talks about the ailments.

(21:25):
So vision issues mobilityissues, cognitive dysfunction.
So I don't care if the mobilityissues is because of
osteosarcoma, neurological issueor arthritis.
They still can't move aroundthe house.
So how do we set up the houseto make it easier to move around
?

So I mean, one of the things that I was
thinking about before we startedrecording is is it too obvious
to ask the question how is doingthis at home better than doing
this in a veterinarian's office?
And that you know.
To me, obviously, there's this,the stress factor for the
animal, for sure, and one of thethings that I said in the
teaser of this episode is that Ifeel like, as somebody that you

(22:02):
know, I had my own pets waybefore I ever had a rescue, so I
have a lot of veterinarians,let's just put it that way.

Yeah, I'm sure you do.

Because I'm loyal to the ones that I
started with.
But at the same time there'sother ones that I work with
directly with the rescue, and Iwant to put business their way
and I'm loyal to them.
And then I've got the horse vetthat comes to the house.
But I've seen the veterinarypractices do and it's a range
based on their resources Areally good job at trying to
make the experience, if itoccurs in the office, better.

(22:30):
One of my vets, parkwood AnimalHospital, has a special room
which I think is brilliant,having the exit to the room,
exit out to the parking lot, soyou don't have to come with your
red, blubbering face throughthe lobby with everybody else
with their new puppies andkittens, and it's got a sofa in
there and it's less clinical,and then the whole candle on the

(22:51):
counter.
You know to be respectful, butum and but.
So that goes a long way.
It makes things better.
But how is the home experience?
I just imagine it's got to bebetter than that.
But what specifically?

okay, so kudos to that veterinary clinic
and I lecture.
I travel the country andlecture two clinics on how to
make that experience better.
And what you're doing thatclinic, what are they doing?
They're trying to make thatroom not look like a clinical
room like you said.
They're trying to make it looklike a living room.
That's why they have a couchthere.
So they're trying to make itlook like home.

(23:24):
So clearly, home is whereeveryone wants to be.
So the obvious is the drive.
Okay, so there's that, andgetting them in the car, it's
privacy, things like that.
So, I will say I do want to atleast advocate for your
veterinarians right.
Like when I was in generalpractice, I loved my, I loved my
families.
I loved the pets that I saw.

(23:45):
I was only in general practicefor maybe two years.
I didn't have 10, 12, 15 yearswith some that.
I saw them as kittens all theway till they were adults.
We veterinarians get veryattached also, so there are a
lot of veterinarians that wantyou to come to the clinic
because they want to be the onesthat help you from cradle to
grave.

You know, and they almost, and they're the
ones that start crying first.
First, because I don't cryanymore, but boy rave you know
and they they, almost they'rethe ones that start crying first
.
The staff, cause I don't cryanymore.
But a boy, you start bawlingand your tech starts bawling.
Okay, fine, now I'm going tostart crying.

No, right, I mean they cry so so I do
appreciate how some of them getupset at us because we're going
to the homes doing it, and so wealways let them know, like all
the things, Other things thatmay not be so obvious is that
there's other pets involved inthe house and they may actually
find some comfort with beingpresent.
I've had many dogs that are, youknow, will lay right next to

(24:41):
the dog or cat that has passedand like almost mourn for a
little bit.
I've had some that just walkright over them, like no big
deal, I think they've known fora while.
in some ways they'll come andfollow me to the car.
They'll sniff the basket Likethey can be.
So not only for them but alsofor the, for the families, it's
nice to have their pet, theirother pet, there as support, to

(25:02):
love up on and things like that,and to be there for each other.
Some people want to bury theirpet.
That's another, not obvious one.
So 20% of families would liketo bury their pets.
They have the yard that theyhope to stay there for some time
, right?

My Snow White.

I brought her home to bury her and that was
difficult.
I had to bring her home in thecar.
That's a tough drive.
It's a tough drive, right.
And then so I'm like there's mydead dog in the back of my car.
That's what I was thinking inmy head.
I hate to be so blunt, butthat's what I'm thinking.
And then I have to bring herout, and I you know so, and dig
the hole, like so, I wasn'tready for it, but families can

(25:37):
prepare that and prepare a nicearea and stuff like that, and
then it's, it's so much easierto bury their pet at home.
So there's also I've been wherethere's probably 40 people at a
party for a dog.
There is.
I live in California.
I lived and worked in SouthernCalifornia for about eight years
and I remember that a bullmassive he's in my book, his
name was Jupiter and I waslooking for the house.

(25:58):
I'm driving down the street andI'm looking for the house and I
see this like tent, you know,10 by 10, like a craft fair tent
, right.
I'm like what's going on downthere?
There's a whole buzz of peopleand that was Jupiter's house and
they had this giant sign outfront, next to the mailbox where
everybody in the neighborhoodwas signing goodbyes to Jupiter.
They had Hawaiian lays,everybody had Hawaiian lays, we

(26:19):
all had tropical drinks and itwas the most amazing.
Goodbye, and on the completeopposite end is where I've been
to a home where family onlywants to be present for me to
walk in.
They say the dogs are overthere and they want to step out
and they can't imagine watchingthat process.
And, respectfully, that's OKtoo.
Or it's just me and one person,you know, and it's somber and I

(26:41):
have to be quiet.
So sometimes it's such a nicegentle experience at home on so
many levels, nice gentleexperience at home on so many
levels.
And for me as a veterinarian ithelps me with doing this
because I do believe all of thepets.
It's time for them and that'sanother question when it's time.
But I don't feel as bad becauseI know I'm doing it so good.
So there's a lot of reasons.

(27:02):
With that being said.

Also, some people are like I don't want to
do it in my house.
I don't want to remember themhere.

I've also been in backyards, I've been on
beaches, I've been to parks.
I've done it in cars.
I had one woman who her dog hadcognitive dysfunction, so like
Alzheimer's for dogs, and everynight she had to hold the dog
and walk around her house.

(27:32):
And when I went to go toeuthanize, she's like I don't
know where we should do this.
I don't want to always rememberthe couch, I don't want to
remember the bed, I don't wantto, I don't know what to do.
And so I said, well, would youlike to hold, hold him and walk
around the house while he passed?
She's like yeah, so I actuallyinjected the final medication,
which is an overdose ofanesthesia.
Instead of directly into a vein, I injected it into his abdomen
, which just takes a littlelonger.
No, no problem, he's sedated,he's sleepy, takes about 15
minutes.
And she held him and justwalked around the house.
So she doesn't know exactly whenhe passed, and neither do I but

(27:53):
it was his final sleep, sothere's many things that we
could do to make it even betterat home or at the clinic, and so
whatever is best for a family,I support that decision.

Yeah, yeah, you know, and I I think that
it's about the.
Yeah, yeah, you know, and I Ithink that it's about the.
The experience is so important.
The, the second episode I didof this podcast.
I interviewed a woman by thename of Nancy Gordon who does a
lot of work in counseling andcoaching people with loss and
grief, specifically for pets,and to me it was the most
profound.

(28:24):
Like I got goosebumps, you know, hair raising goosebumps when
we were having this conversationand for the longest time it was
the least listened to episodeof my podcast and I was like, oh
my God, people need to listento this episode.
It is so important because what?
And it's taken off since then,but I think people don't want to
think about it.
But the message from thatepisode, or one of the many fine

(28:46):
messages from that episode, wasif you, you create the journey
as the human I mean, we don'talways have that choice if
something you know, a dogsuddenly dies or something, but
when you know there's going tobe a finite time span, you can
create that journey as somethingthat is a positive or at least

(29:10):
something that you want toremember for your pet, whether
it was the party or whether it'sthe carrot being carried around
the house, and I think that Ithink they think so much about
the pet.
But I think we need to thinkabout ourselves in this
experience, because the pet inmany instances and maybe I'm
wrong about this, you can tellme if I'm wrong but they
probably know they're alreadygoing, or they feel it and in

(29:33):
the reality it's not like theyhave this cognizant thought of.
Oh my gosh, today is my lastday.
I'm going to go to the hospitaland I'm going to die.
It's like they're here, they'rein the car, they're in the vet,
they get a cookie and thenthey're gone.
But it's us that has to livewith oh, how that went.
Oh, I have to live with howthat went.
Or, oh, I regret, I waited toolong, I regret I did it too soon

(29:54):
, I regret I let him suffer.
Whatever it is, we live withall these regrets and I think we
can take control of that alittle bit better, especially
with a service like Lap of Love.

A hundred percent.
It's a good point about like,do they know?
I think they know, sort of likea 98-year-old grandmother knows
.
You know, like, like you know,I'm not well, I'm not getting
around and stuff like that.
Do they understand the conceptof dying and death?
Who knows, like we?
We don't know that, right, butthey know they're not well, they
know.
They also know if they're sick,they know if they're nauseous,

(30:25):
they know if they're not feelinggood, but with the most thing
that they know is they stilllove their owner, right, and so
you can see the sickest dog.
So you can see the sickest dog.
You walk in and they're goingto wag their tail as best they
can.
You know it's like, oh my gosh,I'm so happy to be there with
you.
So, but making the experienceso.
So there's something calledanticipatory grief, and she
might've talked about this right.

She did when it's a big piece of it.

It's a big piece.
So everybody listened toepisode two.
But the most important things Isuggest my family to do every
hospice family or anybody whotalks to me because their pet is
, you know, not doing well is doa bucket list and I'm like it
doesn't have to be grandiose, itcould just be I had for my

(31:06):
Doberman.
I had peeing on the neighbor'splants, barking at nothing at
all you know, it's just likethings that made Duncan Duncan,
you know, and um, saying goodbyeto all his girlfriends, and
those were all like these youknow, my human, my girlfriends
that love Duncan, you know, likeI had a list of 15 things.
Um, you know, french fryparties sleep, so it doesn't
have to be like, oh, take it tothe beach, but if they can go to

(31:29):
the beach and whatnot, and justchecking them off, it took away
so much regret that, oh, Ididn't do this.
I didn't do one more thing LikeI did a freaking awesome bucket
list and I've got this one.
Oh, it could make you and catspeople say cat bucket lists are
hard to make.
I've got tons of examples in mybook Like they're amazing.
But one of my favorite was thisdog, edie, and they had this

(31:52):
whole big thing and it was likea steak dinner, a new park, uh,
you know, weekend with grandmaand riding a bonus ride in a
fire truck and they tookpictures for every bucket list
item that they were doing andthey sent them to me and I I
have them in my book and like itmakes you cry to see edie in
the in the fire truck.
Right, this old girl sitting inthe fire truck and then

(32:14):
breakfast in bed with dad Likeso it's just.
It's just you can make thatexperience a little bit better,
right?
We can't make it good becausewe're saying goodbye.
There's.
There's nothing good aboutsaying goodbye, but you actually
can make it good.
You can do so much and I thinkit does take away a lot of those
.
I regrets people.

(32:34):
Typically the first time sayinggoodbye they don't know what to
do.
They don't know what they'regoing through Like, so typically
people wait longer the firsttime and after that they say
goodbye sooner because they feellike they waited too long.
And I always say it is waybetter a week too soon than a
day too late.
You know like it will.
It will always feel too soonuntil it's too late.

(32:54):
It's just, it's a it's.
It will always feel too soonuntil it's too late.
It's just it's a it's.
It flops right over.
I think anticipatory grief isactually a good thing, so that
way we can.
We can not not to focus on it,but it helps trigger us to like
okay, what can we do?
Let's get a professionalphotographer out to take some
pictures, like all the things.

We just did an episode on that too, oh.

I love it.
I too.
Oh, I love it.
I love it.
I had, I had, uh, my Samoyed,my second Samoyed I got after
Snow White died.
She would rue, because they dothis ruing and like, and I said
to the photographer, I said Ineed to get a picture of her
ruing and she got the bestpicture of her ruing.
So it's like I will alwaysremember that and I recorded
that.
You know, I always takepictures, take videos.

(33:32):
You can't have enough of them.
Yeah, I could keep talkingforever on that.

Amy, I love that, yeah, that's such a good.
That was a good episode too,because it is, even if it's.
I mean, I definitely believe inthe power of professional
photographs.
No-transcript two photos of him, but I'm but I'm bad about

(34:08):
taking pictures like those kindsof pictures.
You know.

I mean, I take a lot of photos and I've
got you know, if I scrollthrough my phone, I've got a
million cat photos, but most ofthem are not my own.
Let me tell you it is so true.
I'll listen to that episode too, because it is the power of
professional photography isunbelievable what they see, the
compositions, when you know allthe different nuances and also
just having somebody else,through literally their lens,
looking at somebody else throughliterally their lens looking at

(34:38):
.

Yeah, yeah, so you actually kind of covered
a little bit of what one of mylast questions was related to
advice for pet owners.
But is there anything beyondwhat you talked about as far as
the anticipatory grief andcreating the experience?

Yeah.
So the number one question weget is how all I know is time.
To be honest, I did actually awhole video on it, because it's
not an easy answer.
It is so complex and it drivesme nuts when somebody says,
don't worry, amy, you'll know,like you don't know.
This is why, like, hold on, youwill know when your cat is so

(35:11):
bad that it's obvious.
Like, do we want to wait untilit's so obvious that it's like
that's active suffering?
No, we want to say goodbyebefore then.
So therefore, we don't alwaysknow and there's a lot of
different.
There's a lot of differentthings that I put into to play
into this.
The ailment that the pet has isgoing to change their quality

(35:32):
of life.
So if they've, you know, havemobility issues, it's different
than cognitive dysfunction.
That's different than cancermaking them feel sick.
So you've got mobility.
That's painful, but they'restill eating, they're still
wagging their tail.
How does an owner deal withthat Right, like.
That's a whole differentconversation than a pet with
lymphoma that's now vomiting andcan't eat well, and like all

(35:52):
those things, versus a cat withcognitive dysfunction that's
just going to, you know, andstare at a corner all day long.
Now, is that suffering thatlike?
But they're, they could livelike that for years.
Yeah, and and it and.
So then we talk about thecaregiver fatigue.
It's tough caring for these petsand I, like, I give grace to my

(36:15):
families and what I could dodoesn't matter.
I, I'm a big girl, you can'ttell him six one, I can lift a
dog, like, but you can have afive, two person that can't lift
a 30 pound beagle.
You know my mother, shecouldn't pick up her dog, was in
cottage, she couldn't pick, shecouldn't bend over to pick that
up, right.
So there's the physicallimitation, there's time

(36:36):
limitation.
Yeah, these guys can't, youcan't leave them alone eight
hours to 10 hours a day, andwhen you don't work from home,
that's where you're gone for.
Uh.
So there's the physicalcomponent.
There's the monetary component.
Sometimes the drugs are notcheap that we have to give.
And you know my Doberman, hewas 110 pounds and he had heart
disease.
His drugs were $300 a month.

(36:56):
Not everybody can do $300 amonth, and so you know, okay,
then we need to say goodbye.
And the last budget I alwaystalk about budgets is the
emotional budget of that family.
What does this pet?
Is this pet the last livinglink to their child that died
last year?
Right, like this was theirchild's dog or sub cat, right,

(37:16):
and they they're holding on.
Well, okay, that's okay, we'regoing to make sure that your
pet's not suffering, but Iunderstand that it's going to
take you more time, or was it?
Was that your last goldenretriever?
You waited so long that theydied on their own and it was
horrible that you came home andfound them dead when you walked
in.
That you don't want that, soyou want to do it sooner.
So quality of life is alsoprobably life of the family

(37:37):
that's managing this pet, andwhat?
experience they want for thatpet?
Do they want every last momentof moment possible?
That's okay, as long as they'renot suffering?
But let me tell you where youremergency clinic is Cause.
If you want to wait until forfor the very last moment, until
you know the sign from heaven istelling you it's time, that

(37:58):
means you got to take your petto the emergency room and it's
usually respiratory distress andthat's at 2 am and that's not
fun.
So this is a big conversation tohave.
It is not just you'll know whenit's time.
It's not when they stop eating,it's very disease.
You know specific um, andthere's a lot of scales out

(38:18):
there and I actually likequality of life scales.
I have one specific for cats.
So a lot of quality of lifescales are just are both species
and they're two differentthey're two different beasts.
Right so and I also have ownerquality of life assessments for
the owner to not feel bad about,you know being stressed.

Well, I think people feel guilt, and
that's, I think that's such ansuch an important point to to
hone in on is that I mean, Ifeel a tremendous amount of
responsibility towards my petsand when you start thinking,
well, that's becoming superinconvenient, like when my dog
Coco died.
When she did die, I wassomewhat relieved because A
because I didn't have to makethe decision, but it was.

(38:57):
You know, it was no morelistening to her howling at
night, it was no more watchingher walk across the carpet that
I just cleaned and justdribbling urine and you know.
But it's, but it's hard.
It's hard to make that decisionwhen she still I mean she could
run and she ate like a pig.
I mean she had no, no problemwith appetite, but she was
really negatively impacting thequality of my life, with all of

(39:18):
my responsibilities, and so itwas sad, but it was also sort of
a relief when she was gone.

I'm so glad we're talking about this,
because I think it's a sort of ataboo thing to say right.
I think none of us would say Ican't wait for my pet to die.
None of us like I want themaround forever, right?
That's why I say nine lives arenot enough for for my most
recent girl, sam she was a lotof work.
She was the Q-tips, thecleaning the rug cleaner was out
all day long.

I was.

I don't think I slept more than two hours a
night, like you know, in a row,like I was always.
I was always tired, I mean itwas, it was.
It was horrible.
I thank God it was COVID timeCause I wasn't traveling, but it
was a lot of freaking work.
I would do it for 10 years If Iwould do it, but let me tell
you the day, the night I had thebest night's sleep was that
night and I woke up, and then Ifelt guilty, cause I'm like, oh,

(40:09):
that was so nice not having towake up.
And then I'm like well, Mary,aren't you just horrible
thinking like that?
You?
Know, like, and then I feltguilty, that I felt relief and
I'm like no, I would do it, butit's okay to find relief in the
fact that you don't have toclean up the dribble spots
anymore.
You know, and I tell them, Ishared that with with owners
when appropriate you got to knowhow to read a room and what

(40:30):
people are ready to hear.
But but it's nice being in homesbecause I see.
I see what they're goingthrough, I smell, I smell what
they're going through.
So like I'm, I kneel on the rugand I get my knees soaked in
urine and I'm like I know whatthey don't want to live like
this.
You know, sometimes I think of.
Euthanasia is like when you'refeeling nauseous and you need to
vomit.
So you feel nauseous all theway up and you don't want to

(40:53):
vomit.

So you don't want to say goodbye.

It's horrible .
You're feeling bad.
The euthanasia is like thevomit, and then you feel better
after You're still not great,but you feel a little better
after.
They're okay, they're not inthe state of struggle anymore.

Right, I did want to make a point about
as much as people like to usethe word pet parent.
I have this philosophy and I'vesaid it many times on the show
and it's pissed people offsometimes.
But there's pet parents,there's pet guardians and
there's pet owners.
This is just in Amy Castro'sbook.
And so a pet parent is theperson who feels the way that

(41:32):
they feel about their pet, thesame way that they would feel
about a human child, and treatsthem in the same way.
To me, a pet guardian treatsthat animal with all the dignity
and respect and love and care,but it's still an animal, it's
still my pet and I don'tattribute a lot of human factors
to it.
And then there's the pet ownerswho kind of it's more of a
property thing.
But even for those people, ormaybe especially for those

(41:54):
people I think the pet parentsare probably the ones that
struggle the most with this,because it's just such a
gut-wrenching thing is that youlove your animal and you feel
like your animal really lovesyou and cares about you and
you've attributed all thisemotion to that animal.
If your animal could speak andtell you, what would they say?
Not only about their ownsuffering like it's time, mom.

(42:16):
I mean, our animals do love usunconditionally and they care
for us, and so, therefore, theydon't want us to suffer and to
be kind of dreading theirexistence or, you know,
regretting their existence orwhatever words you want to use,
and so better to make that, likeyou said, better to make that
decision a little bit early,because what were they?
You know, what was that weekreally going to bring for them

(42:37):
other than a week more ofsuffering or discomfort, or I'd
have to say that, right.

What would you think they would say?
I'll often say or if what yousee today is not good, it's only
going to get worse, and do nottake a good moment as a good day
.
So you had a spark of joy.
They ate some Turkey, like thatdoes not mean that whole day is
good.
So, and what's a good day toyou versus me, my, my ex, he

(43:03):
would like with Sam, with withher pooping on herself, right,
he would say.
If that was me, I would hatehaving like being pooped on
myself and I'm like yeah, yeah.
But so we're going to clear upand and you know, and there are
some dogs that kind of get upset, like they, they they know and
some dogs are just like.
Well, I got a pile of poophanging off of me.

(43:24):
Who cares?

Right Like yeah, I had a little.
I had a little dog named Buddyand he was such a good little
dog and he was just one of thosedogs, as opposed to my doberman
, who cost me thousands andthousands of dollars of dietary
indiscretion.
We used to joke about buddy,that buddy could eat glass and
rat poison and still be like I'mfine.
But when he was towards the end, when he would urinate, it was,
there was a lot of blood in itand he and he started urinating

(43:49):
on the floor.
And the look, I swear togoodness, the look on his face
when he had an accident, he wasmortified, the indignity for him
, whereas here's Coco prancingacross the living room, pissing
as she goes, and she didn't care, you know it's so important.

I say about the pet's personality like a
part of my quality of lifediscussion.
I'm like is your pet mortified?
Like, do they know?
And I know that is a littlehumanistic, it's still like I
know when sam could care lessthat there's poop all over her,
but duncan, he would have beenlike, oh god, no right, and I
did a bad thing and whateverexactly their personality, like

(44:25):
can you get the pills down andcan you give them fluid therapy?
so quality of life, too, is howwell we can manage some of the
things that they're that theyare dealing with, and this is
what hospice can do.
All these things that we'retalking about is what we talk
about at hospice.
We also, amy, offertele-hospice and we go over this
conversation.
Well, okay, your cat's gotkidney failure.
Let's talk about what's goingon.
How's your house set up?

(44:46):
Are you struggling with yourpartner?
Is your teenager mad at you?
Because you're thinking aboutit Like?
There's so many things that gointo this and every conversation
is individualized.
Every pet story and everyfamily story is so individual
and everybody's situation isdifferent.
What they're going through isdifferent.
What they can financially,emotionally, physically,
time-wise afford, everything isindividual, and so I think

(45:08):
having a home visit allows us tosee what's going on in the home
and assess it properly.
It's sort of like partcounselor.
I remember this one.
It was Domino.
Was the cat, your cat?
Behind him, the black and whitepicture reminds me of Domino.
So I went to the help of thisguy and his cat, and the cat had
diabetes.
It's a very common, you know.
So I went to his house andDomino is not in the living room

(45:31):
at the time.
So we sat and had a wholeconversation.
He was saying that the lasttime he had his insulin check
was six months ago.
Domino's not eating, vomiting,you know the whole thing.
So I'm ready to like findDomino and see this.
You know pickled cat, you knowlike all sick and whatever.
So we walked through his houseto go to his bedroom, where
Domino was on the bed, and wepassed the laundry room and I

(45:53):
look inside the laundry room andthis was like Shangri-La for
cats, you know.
It was just.
Everything was like cat, likeit was gorgeous.
It was so clean and tidy, likethis guy loved his two cats.
So we go see Domino and I seehim on the bed.
I'm like he's not actually likeas bad.
So I said to him I've had myown diabetic cat and they're not

(46:14):
easy to always manage and Isupport your decision to say
goodbye today.
But I can tell you love Dominoand I can tell how much you love
your cats.
And I said but what you'retelling me, though, sounds like
we may be giving either too muchor too little insulin and if we
could just check his bloodsugars again.
I actually didn't charge him.
I said I'd rather you take thatmoney and go find out and if

(46:40):
and if you decide it's time fordomino, then I'll come back and
like no problem.
But just would you?
But I'll, but if you're doneand you're done with this like
I'm okay today and and so Ididn't see domino again, because
it was just a little change inhis insulin levels.
You know, and this is a guy-that I'm like why?

and in my mind I'm why, didn't?

you take him back to the vet.
I think he was hopeless by thattime.
His emotional budget was done.
He just needed a little extraencouragement and support, and
sometimes that happens.
The two pets that I have a hardtime that I've lost are the two
that have died without me.
I didn't get to say goodbye, Ididn't get to say I love you.

(47:17):
And Dr Kubler-Ross, who wrote abook on death and dying, she
says when you're able to sayIlove you, you can grieve a
little bit less.
You know, because you've gottento say it one more time.
So I think the message shouldbe no matter how we say goodbye,
whether it's in the clinic orin the home, just make sure you
say I love you.

Yeah, that's a.
I definitely think that thatwould be a good point to to end
on for sure.
First of all, I want to saythank you, dr Gardner, for for
being such an awesome guest heretoday.
You know, I did not anticipatelaughing as much as I laughed on
an episode about euthanasia andhospice.
You know, it's part of life andwe have to think about

(47:58):
everybody's quality of life inthis whole process.
So thank you so much forsharing your experiences and
your expertise and, for thosewho are listening, please make
sure you you know not onlylisten to this, but listen to
this again, especially as thattime might be coming closer.
Maybe it's not on your horizonright now, but it might be at
some point.
So, definitely listen to thisand if you have a friend or a

(48:19):
family member as we all probablyknow somebody that's struggling
with some of these questionsand decisions, go ahead and
share this episode with them aswell.
I think it will give them a lotof comfort and also a lot of
guidance in making the rightdecision for themselves and for
their pets.
Thanks for listening toStarlight Pet Talk.
Be sure to visit our website atwwwstarlightpettalkcom for more

(48:42):
resources and be sure to followthis podcast on your favorite
podcast app, so you'll nevermiss a show.
If you enjoyed and found valuein today's episode, we'd
appreciate a rating on Apple.
Or if you'd simply tell afriend about the show, that
would be great too.
Don't forget to tune in nextweek and every week for a brand
new episode of Starlight PetTalk.
And if you don't do anythingelse this week, give your pets a

(49:05):
big hug from us.

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