March 25, 2025 • 52 mins
Did I wait too long? Did I do the right thing? What if I failed them?
If you’ve lost a beloved pet, you’ve probably asked yourself these same painful questions. Grief is hard enough, but guilt can make healing feel impossible.
I’ve been there too. When I had to say goodbye to our 34-year-old rescue horse, Cherokee, I was overwhelmed with guilt, even with decades of rescue experience behind me. If you’ve ever struggled with that same inner dialogue, you’re not alone.
In this episode, I sit down with grief experts Ken Dolan-DelVecchio and Nancy Saxton-Lopez, hosts of The Pet Loss Companion podcast and co-authors of The Pet Loss Companion book. We’re diving deep into the emotional minefield of guilt after pet loss and how to find peace again.
BY THE TIME YOU FINISH LISTENING, YOU’LL DISCOVER:
- Why guilt is a natural part of grieving and what helps us move through it
- How “perfect timing” is an illusion and why it always feels off
- What self-forgiveness really looks like and how to stop replaying what-ifs
If you’ve questioned your decisions after saying goodbye to a pet, this episode will help you take the first step toward healing. Grief is love with nowhere to go—and you don’t have to carry it alone.
When you finish listening, I'd love to hear your biggest takeaway from today’s episode.
Follow me for more support, heartfelt conversations, and practical ways to navigate life with pets.
CONNECT WITH KEN DOLAN-DELVECCHIO & NANCY SAXTON-LOPEZ
- Join Ken's Pet Loss and Healing Support Group
- The Pet Loss Companion Podcast
- The Pet Loss Companion Book
Love the show? Please share it with another pet parent who wants less chaos and more clarity. Please leave a 5-star review to help others find real-life, judgment-free advice.
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Contact: Amy@muddypawsandhairballs.com
©Ⓟ 2025 by Amy Castro.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Amy Castro (00:01):
If you've ever lost a pet, whether through
euthanasia, sudden illness orsomething completely unexpected,
you know how quickly grief getstangled up with guilt.
Did I miss the signs?
Should I have done more?
Did I make the right call?
Even after fostering thousandsof animals and experiencing more
loss than I care to count, Istill found myself drowning in
(00:22):
those questions when we had tomake the heartbreaking decision
to lift up our 34-year-old horseCherokee.
No matter how much experienceyou have, it is still
gut-wrenching, because the love,caring and responsibility we
feel for our pets makes theirloss really messy.
And, by the way, you might havenoticed that our music sounds a
(00:42):
little different today.
I wanted to set a softer toneand be a little bit more
reflective for this episode,because it's a heavy
conversation, but it's animportant one that we need to
have.
Stay tuned.
(01:02):
Welcome to Muddy Paws andHairballs, the podcast where we
get real about life with petsthe joy, the chaos and sometimes
the heartbreak.
I'm your host, amy Castro, andtoday we're diving into one of
the hardest parts of loving ouranimals healing after the death
of a pet, especially when guiltand self-doubt threaten to take
over your grieving process.
(01:22):
To help us unpack all of this,I'm joined by Ken Dolan
DelVecchio and NancySaxton-Lopez, the compassionate
hosts of the Pet Loss Companionpodcast and the co-authors of
the book by the same title.
Ken is a licensed therapist,author and grief expert who
spent years helping peoplenavigate the unique and often
misunderstood loss of a pet.
Nancy is a licensed clinicalsocial worker who has supported
(01:46):
families through both human andanimal loss for decades.
Together, they've built a safespace where pet parents can
process their grief withoutjudgment, and they're bringing
their wisdom and warmth totoday's conversation.
We're going to talk about whyguilt after losing a pet is so
common, how to recognize that itis a normal part of grief and,
(02:08):
most importantly, how to releasethat guilt so you can truly
honor your pet's life and thelove that you shared.
So, ken and Nancy, welcome tothe show.
Yes, thank you very much, amy.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (02:18):
Nice to be here, Amy.
Amy Castro (02:20):
So glad to have you here.
So glad to have you here.
Before we kind of get too toodeep in the questions, I want to
share my own little experienceand why this episode is so
important to me and why I mean,I know we had talked about doing
an episode together for a whileand it's.
It's taken me a while to comeback around to it, but I've just
had a recent experience that Isaid.
You know, if I'm feeling thisway, after all, I have
(02:41):
experienced in rescue than otherpeople are probably suffering
through and I'm going to get allchoked up again.
It's crazy.
So we got this horse namedCherokee when we bought our
house in 2018, the people couldnot find a home for her and they
couldn't take her where she wasgoing, and so I get this phone
call the night before closingfrom the cellar crying and
(03:04):
asking if I would keep Cherokee,and I thought because she had
lived here for 18 years of herlife.
She was 34 when she passed away,and so I was like, sure, we'll
keep Cherokee.
And from there, we ended upacquiring a pony and three
donkeys, so she had plenty ofcompanions, but she was
suffering with Cushing's, and Ihave had this experience where
(03:25):
I've put I mean, I've puthundreds of animals to sleep,
sadly, and I've seen, you know,hundreds pass away in my 14
years of doing animal rescue butthis one was just brutal.
And I think what made it sohard was it wasn't a black and
white kind of thing, it wasreally I had to make a conscious
(03:46):
best decision, looking atdifferent factors and saying,
yes, let's do this now versuswaiting, versus giving her to
somebody else.
Why is that decision?
Well, even when it is black andwhite, why is that decision so
hard for people?
Do you think?
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (04:05):
I think it is because we so don't want to
kill our friend, and it's veryhard to move from killing to
ending their suffering, and Ithink that's just an extremely
hard decision for us to make,because it's also it doesn't
(04:26):
apply anywhere else in our livedexperience.
Really, it's not something thatcommonly happens in our
experience with other humanbeings.
And so I think jumping thehurdle of killing to ending
their suffering and then I think, amy, it's what you were
talking about which is there'sso much gray, it feels like
there's so much gray, and wehave a very hard time coming to
(04:50):
a decision of this magnitudewhen there's not absolute
certainty.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (04:56):
That's right .
It's one of those things whereyou know there's so much going
on and you want to make theright decision, but you don't
want to make that decisioneither, right?
That's what Ken's saying, right?
So you know, and for your horse, I mean, there was also
(05:16):
interesting when you were sayingthat, amy, I'm thinking there
were so many other things goingon in your life too at that time
, right.
Your life too at that time,right.
And when things are going on inour life that are affecting us,
then we have a little moreuncertainty about what we're
really doing or should be doing,because we're kind of jumbled
up with a lot of stuff and youknow, we certainly don't want
(05:37):
our animals to suffer and youknow, ken, and I have done this
for a long time.
Most people you know, ken, andI have done this for a long time
Most people either think thatthey made that decision to end a
life too soon or too late,right?
So?
Because there isn't any exacttime where you could say, yes,
(06:00):
what this animal did and at thisday, and this is what this
animal is going through, whichmeans that I need to make that
decision and I'm okay with it.
Most of the time people are notokay with it and even though
they may intellectually thinkokay, I guess because the
quality of life isn't there orthere are others, I think
(06:20):
because of your circumstances,the horse could not go with you.
I think that was part of thehorse could not go with you.
I think that was part of withthe horse, right, right, with
Cherokee, okay.
So then you're thinking, ohwell, I could, like you said, I
could give her away or I couldmaybe take her, you know, and so
that also complicates thatdecision right, yes, a hundred
(06:42):
percent, yeah, and it's.
Amy Castro (06:50):
You know, it's interesting that I literally had
the vet scheduled to come outlike six months ago she had a
really bad summer and it's like,okay, it seemed physically that
it was really really time andthen she kind of rallied and
then I canceled it.
But you're right, you know thecircumstance and you know the
listeners know that I'm in theprocess of of a move and I
talked extensively with the vetabout moving her or and I
couldn't take her with me.
That would be way too much.
But even a neighbor down thestreet offered to take her and
(07:12):
the vet was pretty adamant thatthat would probably in her
experience, that generallydoesn't turn out well.
The herd doesn't accept them,the animal is too stressed from
the change in environmentbecause she's been here so long.
Is that person willing and ableto provide the?
Because she needed pretty, youknow, she needed some medical
care that was not cheap andmedication that was not cheap,
(07:34):
and so I had all of that goingin.
And it's interesting youbrought up the timeline is, and
both of you mentioned it.
It's like when it's black andwhite it's easier and it's like
it even came down to the factthat here I am, we're sitting
here now.
At the end of February I madethe decision and I did euthanize
her.
I think it was two weeks ago.
You know, I could have waitedanother month.
(07:56):
I probably could have waitedanother two months.
I don't know when my house isgoing to sell, and so it was
like making that decision tojust make the decision.
What guidance do you givepeople as far as like, how do
you navigate through that?
And I'll tell you what I did inthe end was I ended up.
I actually looked into chat,gpt and said ask me some
(08:16):
questions that will help me makethe right decision, and it was
incredible.
The questions that I asked.
But yeah, but because I, youknow, as somebody that does
rescue, I could do the qualityof life thing, and I realized
that, you know, there's certainfactors that are just a little
more black and white for me, butthere was still so much gray
and so much guilt about makingthe decision.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (08:38):
We do use a quality of life skill, but on
top of that, that's subjectiveright.
How do we know that they'rehaving it Animals?
But on top of that, that'ssubjective right.
How?
Amy Castro (08:46):
do we know that?
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (08:46):
they're having it.
Animals can't tell us really,so how do we know they're having
a bad day or not, or how?
I mean?
We can watch them drinking ortheir food intake or their
mobility, but how do we knowwhen they're in pain?
Right, yeah, yeah, really.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (08:57):
I'll say that one of the things that I
think is most valuable isconsultation with other people.
So, yeah, so you're not alonein the decision, if at all
possible, that there's aveterinarian who, optimally, has
some history with the animaland has some knowledge of where
they are now relative to wherethey are the last time, the last
(09:19):
visit, the last few months, andthat you talk the decision over
with people who love andrespect you and hopefully also
have some familiarity with youranimal, because it is a, it's a
major decision and it's a reallygood thing to have support with
it.
so that's what I think.
I also believe that in a crisis, we are apt to be riddled with
(09:45):
anxiety.
We're at the vet's office webrought this happened to me a
number of times.
I bring my animal companionthere.
I know they're having a hardtime, but now I'm told that I
have to make a decision, thatthey're dying, and I feel like
we need to give ourselves graceand say okay, we take the
information we got from theveterinarian, we look at them,
(10:05):
we get a sense of where they are, we sit with it for a very
short period of time because wedon't want them to be lingering
in great distress, and then, ifwe make the decision to
euthanize them, we remindourselves that we made the best
decision that we could with theinformation at hand at that time
.
We keep reminding ourselves ofthat, because what will happen
(10:33):
is almost always we'll come backand we'll just torture
ourselves with questions.
Shouldn't I have taken themhome and waited a little while
longer?
Shouldn't I have gotten anotheropinion?
Should I have taken them 50minutes away to the emergency,
where maybe they could be in anoxygen tent?
Or should I have had thesurgery that they said was
vaguely possibly going toactually give them more time.
(10:57):
Ultimately, it comes down tojust being very kind to
ourselves.
One of the things that Nancyand I will ask people is if this
were a friend of yours who wastelling you the story that
you're telling us now, how wouldyou support them?
Would you say, oh my God, didyou think of this?
Did you think of that?
Why didn't you do this?
No, probably not.
(11:17):
Many people, particularly thekind of people who are so
conscientious with their animalfamily members, are so much more
empathic toward others thanthemselves, and so you can ask
them what would you tellsomebody who you loved and
respected who is telling you thestory you're telling us now?
(11:40):
And it can free them a littlebit to not be so damning and be
so challenging of themselves andtry to be kind to themselves.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (12:09):
It is painful, it is sad, but guilt is
really difficult.
Because any, I would say, themajority of people who, even if
the animal goes missing, even ifthere was an accident, why
didn't I let my cat out that day?
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (12:20):
Why did I do that?
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (12:21):
Right.
It's always there and it'sreally hard to work through
because, like I was saying, wecan't take it away from you.
But hopefully, as you talkabout it and as you work through
it, that you will eventually beable to forgive yourself and
incorporate the loss, becauseguilt is just.
(12:43):
It's really a difficult andchallenging emotion to go
through and most of us have itwith our animals.
Amy Castro (12:49):
Yeah.
Well and with people too.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (12:52):
Yeah, yes, with people too.
Amy Castro (12:56):
It's a similar process that we go through in
making some of those decisions.
I want to hit a couple ofthings that you mentioned.
First of all, like Ken, you hadmentioned about the
veterinarian being able to guideyou and I have many fantastic
veterinarians because of therescue for various types of
animals that the challenge thatI think people might run into
and maybe you can address thisis that it's fairly rare, unless
(13:18):
it's a real black and white,that the veterinarian will say
yes, I think you should do thistoday.
I literally told the vet whenshe came out here I'm probably
going to euthanize her, butbring her Cushing's medicine,
like you know, six months worth.
Just in case I changed my mind,like I, I was still.
(13:40):
I was still because I wanted herto look at her that last time.
But you know she would saythings like you know, I support
you in this decision.
I don't think it's a wrongdecision.
And when I start, you know andmaybe this is just the
communication maniac in methere's a big difference in
saying I support you in thisdecision or it's not a wrong
decision and saying it is theright decision.
You should absolutely do thistoday.
(14:02):
So that makes it a little bithard, do this today, and it
makes so that makes it a littlebit hard, and I can understand
why they wouldn't want to dothat because they don't want to
add to that guilt and thatfeeling that you feel, because
it's like, oh, I could havewaited till the weekend when my
daughter came home from collegeor something like that, and
could have said goodbye to thepet or you know things like that
.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (14:19):
It's really it's really difficult for
veterinarians because many yearsago years ago they would say
right.
I think that they were more aptto say, no, I think you need to
do this, but they got so muchpush back right and people would
get really angry and theywanted to know.
But they didn't want to know,right.
So what they do is really whatyour veterinarian is doing.
(14:42):
Well, you know it's not a wrongthing.
And they're thinking well,you're not saying you should do
it, you know.
So there's a lot of questionaround that, but they are taught
now not to really say too much.
Now, that said, some peoplewill say well, what would you do
to the veterinarian?
What would you do if it wasyour animal?
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (15:02):
That's my question to them.
I was just thinking the samething.
Amy Castro (15:06):
I always ask that question, yeah.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (15:09):
What my veterinarian has said and this
has happened on three occasions,I guess, in the last several
years.
What she'll say is well,clinically there is no path to
health here, but you love her,so you have to decide.
She'll always make thatdecision.
She'll say, clinically, this isthe way it looks and she's not
(15:33):
going to get better, but youhave to make the decision.
And then she'll kind of look atme like do the right thing, ken
.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (15:42):
Wink, wink, nod, nod.
Yeah, I find that.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (15:46):
I'll say what would you do if she were
yours?
And she'll be pretty clearabout it.
I mean pretty definite, like Iwould.
I would let her go, I wouldease her out, yeah, and I always
feel like they won't tell youwhat to do because they fear
liability, they fear a lawsuitright as yeah.
As we are an incrediblylitigious society, people
(16:06):
sometimes get outrageouslyemotionally overwrought in their
recriminations and they'll saywell, you told me, and so I can
understand that.
I also think it's important forpeople to realize the position
that the veterinarians are inand to not see them as a God
(16:27):
figure or somebody who has theultimate responsibility, because
we do have the responsibility,and that's why I think that the
guilt is so profound and I thinkthe guilt is so profound
because we've had responsibilityfor every aspect of this
animal's care and life, whatthey eat, what they do during
(16:49):
the day, the environment inwhich they live, food we give
them the medication we give themthe company they keep.
We are in control of all of thatand we're responsible for all
of that.
And so many people feel, Ibelieve, that we should be
responsible for preventing theirdeath, and I think that this
(17:09):
also ties into the fact thatmainstream culture is incredibly
phobic about the reality ofdeath.
And we need to get morecomfortable with the reality
that every living thing dies.
Every one of our animalcompanions is going to die,
we're going to die, our friendsare going to die, our children
are going to die.
We're all going to die and thatis not a catastrophe.
(17:32):
That is simply the law ofnature and we do not have
control over it.
And I feel like people justbeat themselves up because their
animal died and you know.
Really, the question is youdidn't expect this to happen.
Most, of our animal companionshave much abbreviated lifespans
(17:53):
compared to us, and so, when weadopt them into our family, we
know that we're likely to losethem and it's very important to
just keep that in mind and, asthe time approaches, to realize
that we cannot prevent this fromhappening.
(18:14):
We can make decisions about howto help it happen in the most
comfortable fashion and we cantake the best care of them
through illness and infirmity,but we cannot prevent them from
dying.
And really the last gift theway I see the last gift that we
give them, is as painless aspossible, a transition when
there is no path forward.
(18:35):
I remember making this decisionwith my mother when she was at
the very end of her life and washaving a conversation with my
brother who wanted to doeverything possible, including
coding her again, you know, thedefibrillator which had really
traumatized her and I remembersaying to him very pointedly I
said our task now is to help herdie as comfortably as possible.
(18:59):
There is no path back to health.
That is not possible.
That's why we're in hospice.
We don't want to just createmore trauma for her.
She is transitioning out ofthis life and that's what
happens.
Our animals, if we're lucky, ifthey're lucky enough not to be
killed in an accident or anemergent medical crisis.
(19:20):
That's where we're going to endup with them.
Amy Castro (19:22):
Right right medical crisis.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (19:25):
That's where we're going to end up with them
, right, right, sometimes.
I mean, you know, ken, therewas one of our people that came
on the podcast and he's stillstruggling, and you know it's
complicated because I think Amy,with Cherokee it was a little
complicated, right.
So his animal was elderly, haddementia and had mobility issues
(19:45):
.
Okay, and this was his sole dog, right, he loved this dog, but
he was the only one taking careof the dog and there were issues
in the family and they're like,oh, the dog's up all night
because he's sundowning and allthis and he had a bad bat.
It was really difficult.
There were so many things.
When he had decided maybe weshould euthanize him, the vet
(20:07):
came love this vet, know hergreat vet.
But what happened is?
He asked, is this the rightthing?
And she said well, look, thedementia is going to be a
problem.
Maybe he has another few weeksaround his mobility, right, he
chose to euthanize him and then,boom, it was like he could have
(20:38):
had a few more weeks.
Why did I do this?
Why did I do this?
She said that, you know.
And so I had to work reallylong time with him, you know, to
kind of go through that guilt,because after, obviously, the
death, he was not doing all thatphysical work.
He felt better, and the more hefelt better, the more he
believed that he did the wrongthing.
And this is what guilt does tous and, like Ken said, it's
(21:01):
really hard and we have toslowly work through it and not
be so hard on ourselves.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (21:07):
And I think that's an important point,
Nancy that with the death of aloved one, there are also some
changes that we experience asrelief, as opportunity, and that
doesn't mean that we don'tgrieve for them.
It doesn't mean that the lossis not very important to us, and
(21:27):
it doesn't mean that we'rebetraying them.
It's just the way life changesand this is something again that
people feel like did I do thisto free myself from this burden?
And they have to go back andsay, no, I did it because it was
the appropriate thing to do toend their suffering.
I mean, to me, the phrase thatkeeps coming back is end their
(21:50):
suffering.
That's what you do and, as yousaid, one of the things that you
notice over time is how manypeople think they did it too
soon and how many people thinkthey did it too late.
There are some people who areabsolutely okay with the timing.
We do hear that with someregularity but it's much more
(22:12):
likely that there's like thiswhole swirl of recriminations,
of woulda, shoulda, couldas, andI've said this many times.
One of the things when I getany of those kinds of feelings,
things when I, when I get any ofthose kinds of feelings, I look
at the boxes that have theirashes, I mean it's real, it's a
little morbid maybe, but itimmediately orients me to the
(22:32):
fact that they're not hereanymore.
And this is not helpful,because there's there's nothing,
there's nothing good that willcome from this, this chewing on
this emotionally more and moreand more, and so the reality is
you did the best time that youcould at the time, and their
(22:52):
life is over.
We don't know what that meansultimately for any of us, but
you're not going to change that.
There's no way to change it.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (23:01):
Right, but you're also never going to
forget them, right.
Amy Castro (23:04):
You're never going to forget them.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (23:06):
We talk a lot.
These animals are so importantto us, right?
They give us such gifts andsuch love and you can't have a
relationship with a human likeyou can with an animal.
So it doesn't mean that theymay be gone and that's
devastating and there is guiltaround it trying to work through
the guilt.
But they're always with us, youknow, and we have to remember
(23:36):
that because you know they gaveus that wonderful life with them
for so many years.
And sometimes and sometimes Imean people get really angry
when it's so soon.
You know when something happenswhen they're young, but if
they're older and have gonethrough a lot of life, you know
it's a little bit different, butthey still have given us so
much right.
Amy Castro (23:53):
Definitely yeah.
And do you think so?
Because, ken, you had mentioned, you know, when people question
themselves and they say, did Ido this for me or did I do this
for them?
I and maybe I'm wrong on Idon't think I am, but I I feel
like I did it when I did it forboth of us, I think it was time.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (24:13):
Could she have?
Amy Castro (24:15):
could she have gone on longer time?
Could she have gone on longer?
But we did an episode with thefounder of Lap of Love a while
back, the home hospice ineuthanasia, and she said and I'm
not going to quote her exactlyand I don't know if this is her
saying or from somewhere else,but better a week too early than
a day too late.
And Ken, you kind of alluded tothat as well, and so part of my
(24:36):
thinking was kind of going backto the questions that I asked
myself.
You know, like quality of lifefor her, because they're
obviously it's different fordogs and I think it is important
.
And Nancy youT was, you know,for a horse.
Remind me, what are those, whatare those elements?
(24:59):
And you know horses are herdanimals.
Her entire herd had beensystematically kind of removed.
The pony got adopted, thedonkey got adopted, the other
donkeys got adopted because weknew she wasn't going to be
going anywhere.
And you know as much as I wouldlook out the window every
morning and hope, oh, she'slaying down, maybe she.
You know, like I hoped Iwouldn't have to make that
decision.
(25:20):
You know it ultimately camedown to the fact of, yes, it was
like Ken said, her health wasnot going to get better.
The vet had mentioned thesummer was coming and it was
going to be brutal because ofthe.
You know, the heat is just alot for a Cushing's animal to
handle.
The heat is just a lot for aCushing's animal to handle.
But there was a little bit ofself-serving in there as well,
because, although she was nothard to take care of, here I'm
(25:43):
trying to sell my house.
I've got this old kind ofsickly-looking horse.
I didn't want people to comeand think, oh, you're not taking
care of that horse.
And, as morbid as this sounds,I thought about the fact of if I
wait till the very, very end,you know, if I'd waited another
month, let's say, now I havethis big burial mound in my
(26:07):
pasture and everybody's going tosay what's that?
And now I've got to tell themthere's a dead horse in their
backyard, kind of thing.
And you know I didn't want tohave those conversations or I
didn't want people to feeluncomfortable.
But one of the things that Ikind of console myself with is
what would have been gained forher to keep her around for
another month or two months orwhatever.
She's out there by herself, youknow, I don't know exactly how
she was feeling, but I can'timagine at 34 with Cushing's and
(26:28):
you know not being not havingmany teeth left.
You know she probably wasn'tfeeling awesome.
You know she probably felt whenshe was six or seven years old.
And so what would I have gainedby allowing her to stick around
a little bit longer?
Maybe I'd felt a little lessguilty.
I don't know.
I mean, I guess part of that ishow do you talk yourself
(26:49):
through that guilt, like I havethese little conversations where
I play my own devil's advocateto try to make myself feel
better.
What else can people do tonavigate that guilt?
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (26:59):
Well, I think one of the things you can
do is you can remind yourself ofthe care that you gave all of
those years and how deliberatethe decision was, and all of the
consultation you had, and thatpoint which the person from Lap
of Love and I think that's abrilliant way to put it better a
week too early than a day toolate and also think of the fact
(27:23):
that, indeed, your needs shouldfigure in to the formula.
They really should.
I mean, if you have an animalthat you simply cannot manage to
care for anymore and they areat death's door, you need to
take care of yourself too,because you deserve to have the
capacity to live a healthyexistence as well, and all these
(27:47):
things are on a continuum.
That's what I think makes it sochallenging.
I mean, we've heard one of theclassic stories that Nancy tells
is that the people broughttheir cat to the vet and asked
that it be euthanized because itno longer matched their new
furniture.
Amy Castro (28:05):
That was true.
I've heard things like thatmyself.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (28:08):
One end of a continuum of.
You know I have needs too, butwhat you're talking about is
this infinitesimally small otherend of the continuum where you
have to balance the fact thatyou have to manage your life too
, and so this comes up.
We see this a lot, with peoplewho simply cannot pay for what
(28:29):
would be needed next.
They would become destitute.
We recently had a person tellus that their animal was going
to cost over $2,000.
The animal was very sick.
They didn't have any more totheir name than $2,000.
They would literally bedestitute and they decided to
euthanize.
And what we said to them was youmade the right decision because
(28:54):
you need to live, you need tohave shelter.
You did the best you could,which is another way of thinking
about this.
We do the best we can with allthe resources that we have, both
internally inside ourselves andaccessible to us in the world.
But again, I see that, as aslong as that's navigated
(29:16):
thoughtfully and deliberately,as long as that's navigated
thoughtfully and deliberately,that idea of you know we're
going to be moving and they'rein the process of near death and
you know probably be a goodthing for this to happen before
the closing on the new, on theproperty that we selling, all of
that is reasonable, becausethey're not, they don't have
(29:37):
much time and you need to havean organized life that makes
sense too.
And so I think that's all ofthat, again, as long as it's
deliberate and it is not justlike flippant.
Like you know, there's a MontyPython skit where the family is
(29:58):
going away on vacation and oneof the family members says, well
, we have to put the cats down.
And one of the other ones asked, well, why?
And they said, well, wewouldn't want to come home to a
dead cat.
Now I mean, it's like that andthat's a joke in that, but like
that's, that would be the thatother end of the continuum.
Well, you know, we're kind ofdone with them.
We don't people who give awaytheir pets because they get to
(30:19):
be like seven years old andthey're not able to go running
with them anymore, maybesomething like that.
That's that other end of thecontinuum.
But we deserve to pay attentionto our own needs too and figure
them in.
That's the way I think about it.
Amy Castro (30:33):
Yeah Well, and you were talking about the financial
aspect of the paying forwhatever a procedure, medication
or whatever to buy what forthat pet.
It's like you now have putyourself in older pets and that
sundowning is not for the weakof heart.
I mean it is.
You lose a lot of sleep.
You know the older dogs.
(31:05):
You have urinate.
You're constantly cleaning uppee, you're putting diapers on
them and it's like at what pointis enough?
Enough for for both of you.
But you're right at the otherend of the spectrum.
I remember being appalled whenI used to volunteer at animal
control in a town over from hereand this very nice looking
couple came in and they weresuper excited about the fact
(31:26):
that they were retiring and theywere going to hit the road in
their RV and they wanted tobring their cats in to euthanize
them, not to give them up foradoption even.
They just wanted to euthanizethem and I think the cats were
like 10 and 12.
It's like I just want to punchyou in the face.
I'm sorry, that's just wrong.
We get it.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (31:44):
We see it, figure it out yeah.
Amy Castro (31:45):
I'm sure you see it.
Yeah, and we see that all thetime, with people coming to the
rescue to relinquish pets forwhat I feel are not the best
reasons, but maybe that pet'sbetter off.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (31:56):
Well, that's yeah, whenever I hear
that kind of story.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (31:58):
I'm like you know what kind of life were
they living if they were justlike an ornament in the home.
Amy Castro (32:04):
Yeah.
So if, if somebody is workingthrough this process and they're
struggling with the guilt andthey've heard what we've said so
far and they're stillstruggling with it, how
important is it for people toseek out help, community support
and you had mentioned somethingearlier, ken, about, you know,
talking with trusted people.
(32:25):
I have found, and this was inmy experience when my husband
passed away, I was literally onmy way to the hospital and he
was going to be put on aventilator, which was kind of
the beginning of the end, but uhand but he was conscious and he
was part of that decision and,um, I got a phone call from
somebody and instead of, I said,oh, I'm, this is what I'm doing
(32:47):
, I'm, I'm heading to thehospital for this.
And she's like, well, did youever go see that doctor?
I recommended, and I was like,yeah, no, oh, well, you really
should have.
She could have cured him.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (32:54):
And it's like this is not what I want to
hear right now.
Amy Castro (32:56):
What a nut and the doctor she was referring to was
a total nut job.
Like you know, a snake oilsalesman kind of kind of person,
and it's like, so my point withthat is you do need to be
careful who you reach out to andnot that I reached out to her,
but you know who.
You share this experience,because not everybody is going
to give you the compassion andhelpful communication that you
(33:19):
need.
But where can people find thatsupport?
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (33:22):
Well, there's websites.
There's a lot online now aboutlike PetLawsorg, petlawscom,
aplb, the Association of PetLaws and Bereavement.
You know podcasts, you know Ken, and I do ours, you know yes
we'll definitely put links inthe show notes to your podcast,
for sure.
It helps people.
(33:44):
I don't think like I can't.
We were talking about this lastnight.
Everyone that has written to usthat we share on the podcast,
right like Amy, they say thankyou so much for doing this,
because we really appreciatethat we don't feel so alone.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (34:00):
Isolation is one of the most painful
aspects of grieving and I'llalso mention that I facilitate a
Zoom pet loss group.
It's usually on the secondTuesday of the month and it runs
from 6 pm Eastern to 7.30 pm.
It's a Zoom meeting.
It's for anybody who across theworld may benefit from coming
(34:22):
together.
We cap it at 50 people.
We usually get about 25 to 30people and it doesn't cost
anything and it's something tosee that there are people from
everywhere that there might bean English speaking.
Yes, people from the UK, fromIreland, there's always people
(34:44):
from Australia.
We've got recently a personfrom Saudi Arabia, from
Singapore, and they sharestrengths.
Basically, they share stories,they share strengths.
There are different points inthe journey of coming to terms
with their loss, but those kindsof opportunities are really
important.
I want to just stress something, and Nancy and I have said this
many times Be cautious aboutwho you share this with in the
(35:05):
workplace.
Amy Castro (35:07):
Oh yeah, it's just a cat.
You can get another one.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (35:11):
Yes, and sometimes people you know they
may have a supervisor who seemsvery empathic and connected and
whatnot, and they tell themabout this and now the
supervisor thinks that they'renuts and won't give them a new,
expanded role, doesn't see themthe same anymore, questions
(35:32):
their confidence.
We've heard this too many timesto not mention it.
Right, heard this too manytimes to not mention it, and
I'll also say that one of thethings that I feel like you
experience is comes back toagain.
Our society has grown soshielded from death and from
negative feelings.
There's a great book by ajournalist she recently died,
(35:52):
three or four years ago BarbaraEhrenreich.
Barbara Ehrenreich wrote a bookcalled Bright Sided and it's
about the culture of positivityin our society, the idea that
you're always supposed to behappy and up and energized and
if you're not, well, you justneed to get with the program and
it's really.
There's a whole school ofpsychology called positive
(36:14):
psychology, which I've alwaysseen as being really problematic
for this reason, because lifeincludes a full palette of
emotions the good, the bad, thepainful, the confusing, the
awesome.
But we have a culture that hasgrown so apart from negative
(36:35):
feelings and I also oftenmention this that one day I
opened up my AOL account.
This was quite a many years ago.
Amy Castro (36:44):
I was going to say you're dating yourself now, Ken.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (36:46):
I don't really use AOL, I use Gmail.
Let's just be clear.
Amy Castro (36:50):
Yes, you do, because I can confirm that I emailed
him earlier today.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (36:54):
So and there was a headline that said
worst catastrophe for JuliaRoberts and I clicked on it and
her like 91 year old mother haddied and while that is sad and
painful, it is not a catastropheand I felt like we were being
infantilized, like that headlinewas so infantilizing like we're
(37:15):
not children, we know thatpeople die and that is not a
catastrophe, and I felt like itwas so emblematic of the very
childish way that mainstreamculture approaches many things,
death among them.
But there are people who, likewhen they hear a story that
somebody is dying or theiranimal companion has died, they
(37:38):
find it so rattling that theycan't be empathic, they can't
just be with you in yourdistress.
Many people they're notpracticed at being compassionate
.
Amy Castro (37:49):
No, that is a fact.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (37:51):
In order to be compassionate, you have to
be able to tolerate being inthe presence of somebody who is
in emotional pain.
And if you're not used to beingin the company of somebody who
has emotional pain and justknowing that you can tolerate
what that stirs in you, and justknowing that you can tolerate
what that stirs in you, thenyour impulse is to push it away
(38:13):
and to say things like well, youknow they were very old and
they were very sick and you knowmaybe you'll get another dog
soon and you know they're in abetter place now.
All kinds of things, all kindsof crazy things that are
actually going to be experiencedby the person who's grieving as
dismissal yeah, exactly youknow pretty much, like you're
(38:33):
dismissing how I'm feeling rightnow, when really all that you
can do that's helpful is justbear witness and be with them.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (38:40):
You can only listen and that's hard for
people because, like and yousaid, they don't want to deal
with their own pain they don'twant to deal with, with bad
things right so they get reallynervous or anxious and they say
things that they mean well butdon't mean well, I mean meaning
the context of the person rightand that makes it more difficult
.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (38:59):
Because it increases isolation Right, it
pushes the isolation further.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (39:05):
Right, and it's also important for grief in
total, to try to be gentle withourselves, right.
This is what we've been talkingabout with the guilt, but it
goes along for all of thoseemotions and it's really hard to
take care of ourselves, butit's really important to do so,
you know, to try to eat well andto get some rest and to do some
(39:26):
exercise.
A lot of times it's verydifficult to do that, but, you
know, but the gentleness, givingourselves a break, taking care
of ourselves, loving ourselves,you know, because this journey,
the grief journey, is verychallenging and it can be very
difficult and complicateddepending on the death.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (39:47):
It comes and goes.
It's not linear.
It takes whatever time it takes.
There's nothing wrong with youif it takes a long time.
Amy Castro (39:56):
Well, let me ask about that, because that's where
my mind was going.
I was thinking about what yousaid about not sharing at work
and how somebody might perceiveyou differently, because you're
feeling these big feelings aboutsomething that they don't think
is maybe of value or deservingof those big feelings.
At the same time, is there aplace where somebody has gone
(40:18):
from quote, unquote, normalgrief even though there is a
spectrum to a point where theyshould be seeking?
help beyond you know, maybebeyond a group like a grief
counselor or a psychologist orsomething like that, because
they're just stuck or their, youknow, their own quality of life
has now been negativelyimpacted.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (40:37):
Well, that's complicated grief, there is
such a thing and so, yes, atthat juncture, if it's gone on
and it's still as intense in sixmonths that it has been, you
know in the beginning, there'ssomething else happening in
there and it would be importantfor someone, especially around
animal loss, to find a pet losscounselor, because even grief
(40:59):
counseling which is really it'sa difficult thing to do, but
grief counseling in general doesnot necessarily address pet you
know I mean you could get atherapist.
That's really good with griefcounseling, but they don't quite
understand the nuances withcompanion animal loss.
So you know it would be helpfulto look for an actual pet loss
(41:21):
counselor.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (41:22):
And I would say also that there's no
downside to getting therapy andcounseling.
I mean, we're both therapists.
We've been in therapy ourselvesover and over again.
You know I'm a crazy person inmany ways, Aren't we all.
I don't feel like that's a badthing.
I think it's just part of thehuman condition.
(41:43):
Your mental health is acontinuum.
I don't believe that there arementally ill people and there
are mentally well people.
I think we are all floatingaround on that continuum.
I don't believe that there arementally ill people and there
are mentally well people.
I think we are all floatingaround on that continuum and we
go to different places, justlike all aspects of health the
physical, the social, thespiritual, the financial, all of
that and so we deserveself-care, and that often comes
(42:07):
in the form of a therapist or acounselor.
I will tell you that one thingthat I always keep in mind is,
if you are incapacitated, youcan't crack a smile for a period
of two weeks you can't get outof bed or you can't go to work.
Yeah, if you're incapacitated,you need to see a therapist.
If you start havingself-destructive fantasies or
plans or you're actually hurting, you need to see a professional
(42:31):
.
And not only.
But the language that I alwaysuse is deserve.
You deserve to see aprofessional, just like you
would see a specialist in anyother kind of medical care.
You deserve to see a therapist.
Amy Castro (42:46):
Yeah, that's, that's good, definitely good advice.
All right, so to wrap things up, I want to switch to not that
you know, this is all positiveand good advice, but maybe a
little a happier note to end on.
And we did an entire episode Ithink I'd mentioned this to
Nancy in our back and forthcommunication about, you know,
(43:06):
memorializing our pets and thethings, the products and the
things, ceremonies, things likethat.
But what have you seen frompeople you know, since you're
working with people in this areaand you've got your groups any
particularly unique orinteresting ways that you have
found that people have, numberone, honored their pets but made
that something that helped themto move I don't like to use the
(43:28):
word move on, but I like tofocus on moving forward.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (43:31):
Yeah, exactly To incorporate the loss.
Amy Castro (43:34):
I mean a lot of times.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (43:36):
You know we've got a lot of gardens.
You know memorials in thebackyard.
You know the little plaques,the dogwoods, or you know the
butterfly bushes right, all ofthat with a little, you see.
Or you know the butterflybushes, right, all of that with
a little, you see.
It's really.
The other day I was workingwith someone through the death
of her cat and the vet said thisand I wasn't aware of this I
(43:59):
know that a lot of people aregetting jewelry now.
You can have ashes put intodifferent types of jewelry.
She said that tattoos are nowtaking ashes.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (44:11):
I did not know that the tattoos are
including ashes.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (44:14):
Wow.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (44:15):
That sounds interesting.
Amy Castro (44:16):
So I yeah, I would have to talk to my doctor about
that before I did that.
Yeah, that sounds a littleunhygienic, but who knows right,
I mean, it's something you knowyeah, but I think that just
shows the wide range you knowfrom, from the more common um.
You know, I, even I, I I kindof went back and forth on this
because I've seen a lot ofvideos.
(44:37):
There's a.
If anyone wants to cry, you cango and um, try to find a video
about the horse with no tail.
But a lot of people will taketheir horse's tail, um, and I
was like I don't know, I waskind of torn about it, like what
am I going to do with her tail?
But in the end I thought I havethis one opportunity and then
it's not going to be availableto me.
So I did cut some of her hair.
(44:58):
I don't know what I'm doing.
It got stuck in a moving boxand you know.
But the young woman that I had,her name was Gia.
She actually works at a funeralhome in Charleston, south
Carolina.
I'll put the information backin the show notes on that.
But her beloved horse passedaway and it was very sudden and
(45:18):
she had the tail hair made intoa bracelet, so it's amazing the
products that are available.
Another thing that Dr Mary fromLap of Love had mentioned was,
you know, people doing kind of alast party for their pet and
things you know kind of an Irishwake type of thing.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (45:31):
Oh sure.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (45:32):
Yeah, yeah , before or after the pet.
Amy Castro (45:35):
But yeah, I think you know, finding those kindred
people to celebrate the life ofyour pet and then, whether you
do anything with the ashes ornot, or whether you do something
with the paw print no harm, nofoul to get it done and then you
can decide later on what youwant to do.
But I think it's something toconsider.
If you even think you mightwant to do something later on
(45:57):
like you said, a piece ofjewelry or something like that
go ahead and get the ashes backso that you have that
opportunity.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (46:04):
And there's.
I mean Ken and I, we've beenthrough this a lot, so a
creative endeavor.
You know writing a poem,writing a song.
You know doing scrapbooks.
You know having a little placein the house.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (46:19):
Like a lot of people have their little
ashes in different.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (46:22):
I have teapots right, so I have little
teapots.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (46:24):
You have all the little boxes.
Oh, that's cute.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (46:26):
And hair you know, and so our memorial
garden, you know, have littleplaques or something.
Or we had a guy.
Years ago there was a man whomade guitars and he literally
took a white guitar and had hisdachshund's portrait on it.
Oh, wow.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (46:46):
Yeah.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (46:46):
Yeah.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (46:47):
I mean there's all kinds of things.
There's so many.
One of the things I've heard alot recently that I think is
very interesting is peoplecarrying artifacts from their
dogs so they might go for a walk, and they've always got their
dog's collar in their pocket oraround their wrist or they keep
their tags.
It's very interesting to me.
We've seen more and more ofthat, where they do these
(47:10):
rituals of repeating and goingto places where places that were
familiar to them with theiranimal companion.
But they've got something oftheir animal companion with them
, yeah, and it's just very, veryinteresting to hear how
meaningful that is for people.
Yeah.
Amy Castro (47:28):
Yeah, but I think it's also okay for people Like
one of the things that I havestarted.
I mean I did take the tail hairfrom Cherokee because I mean
she's literally the only horse Ihad, a horse when I was in
junior high, but like other thanthat, she's been my only real,
you know, adult, adult horse.
But when I look at dogs andcats, I've had a lot of pets and
I noticed that at one pointthat I had an awful lot of those
(47:51):
plastic boxes just lined up onthe same shelf with my shoes in
my closet.
I know that sounds terrible.
They were not being honored andit's like, okay, how many pets
ashes am I going to stack up?
And like, am I going to have tobuy a storage unit for these at
some point?
So what I did was I I couldn'tquite just throw them away or
get rid of them, but what I didwas I took like a little bit
(48:14):
from each one and put them inone box.
So, just so I still have them.
I didn't, you know, but um, butthen even with my last few pets
that I've had to euthanize, Igot the little paw print that
the vet does, but I did not gettheir ashes back and and I don't
(48:37):
feel guilty about that becauseit's like this is how I decided
to do it.
Now it's getting the ashes backmade me feel better back then I
don't.
I don't feel that need.
Now it's okay to change.
So I just want people torealize that no matter what you
do, it's about you know your petis gone.
So it's about what brings youcomfort.
If it brings you comfort tohave them, great.
If you don't need that and thememories or the photographs or
whatever you've got are goodenough, then fine.
It's not about what otherpeople do, it's about what makes
(48:57):
you feel right.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (48:58):
No, it's about how you want to do it and
how many times you want to do it.
What feels?
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (49:02):
right to you and it could be very
different in differentcircumstances.
One of my cats is buried in mygarden and I planted a whole
bunch of coreopsis on top of her, so it's perennials.
Always I, whenever I go bythere, I say hello to her.
Others of my dogs are all inlittle little boxes of ashes and
chickens I take up and leavefor the coyotes up at the woods
(49:25):
when they die yeah, I mean yeahand to me like yeah, it's, it's
it, but it you know, justwhatever makes sense to you
individually and because thereare not prescribed rituals the
way there often is in acommunity of faith for our human
beings, like if you're a partof a particular sect of
christianity or whatever otherfaith.
(49:47):
There, when we die there's anexpectation that there's a
certain pattern of ritual thatyou're going to go through.
That doesn't happen with ananimal campaign.
It can, yeah, it can, but so wehave to.
We do what feels right for themand for us at the time.
Amy Castro (50:05):
Right, right.
So for somebody that is goingthrough this right now either
they're contemplating having toeuthanize a pet or they just did
it and they're in the thick ofthings any final thoughts or
advice for them?
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (50:19):
Yeah, I mean.
For me, grief is about puttingone foot in front of the other
and keep going and you try to beas loving and gentle as we both
said toward yourself as you canbe and also just accept that
this is what you signed on for.
The flip side of love is grief,and we will experience it many,
many times in life with all ofour important relationships and
in the end, far down the road,we're wiser and stronger usually
(50:42):
.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (50:43):
Yeah, yeah, also, it's a process.
All of the emotions are valid.
They're always valid.
It's going through the processof them and trying to take care
of yourself.
The last task of mourning is totake in the loss in your daily
(51:04):
activities so that you'veincorporated the loss into you
and that you can go through yourlife again.
Will you always grieve?
Yes, we always grieve.
We always think about those whohave died.
But what they're saying now?
The amount of grief is equal tothe amount of love.
Amy Castro (51:23):
Well, ken and Nancy, thank you so much.
I feel like I just had atherapy session with you both.
You can send me a billafterwards, but I appreciate
your experience and your wisdomand advice and I hope that
everything that we talked abouttoday is super helpful to those
of you who are listening,because you know it's
interesting.
We've done a couple of episodes, like one that was really one
(51:45):
or two that was really directlyabout the death of a pet, and
they always tend to be.
I call them the slow burners,because it's not like everybody
says, woohoo, I can't wait to goout and listen to that, but
it's there when you need it andum and there's have been some.
To me they've been some of thebest episodes that we have done
on the show, including includingthis one.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (52:05):
I think too, for being here.
Thanks so much for theopportunity.
Thank you.
Amy Castro (52:09):
Thanks for listening to Muddy Paws and Hairballs.
Be sure to visit our website atmuddypawsandhairballscom for
more resources and be sure tofollow this podcast on your
favorite podcast app, so you'llnever miss a show.
And hey, if you like this showtext someone right now and say
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You need to check the show outand tell them to listen and let
you know what they think.
(52:29):
Don't forget to tune in nextweek and every week for a brand
new episode.
And if you don't do anythingelse this week, give your pets a
big hug from us.
If you've ever lost a pet, whether through
euthanasia, sudden illness orsomething completely unexpected,
you know how quickly grief getstangled up with guilt.
Did I miss the signs?
Should I have done more?
Did I make the right call?
Even after fostering thousandsof animals and experiencing more
loss than I care to count, Istill found myself drowning in
(00:22):
those questions when we had tomake the heartbreaking decision
to lift up our 34-year-old horseCherokee.
No matter how much experienceyou have, it is still
gut-wrenching, because the love,caring and responsibility we
feel for our pets makes theirloss really messy.
And, by the way, you might havenoticed that our music sounds a
(00:42):
little different today.
I wanted to set a softer toneand be a little bit more
reflective for this episode,because it's a heavy
conversation, but it's animportant one that we need to
have.
Stay tuned.
(01:02):
Welcome to Muddy Paws andHairballs, the podcast where we
get real about life with petsthe joy, the chaos and sometimes
the heartbreak.
I'm your host, amy Castro, andtoday we're diving into one of
the hardest parts of loving ouranimals healing after the death
of a pet, especially when guiltand self-doubt threaten to take
over your grieving process.
(01:22):
To help us unpack all of this,I'm joined by Ken Dolan
DelVecchio and NancySaxton-Lopez, the compassionate
hosts of the Pet Loss Companionpodcast and the co-authors of
the book by the same title.
Ken is a licensed therapist,author and grief expert who
spent years helping peoplenavigate the unique and often
misunderstood loss of a pet.
Nancy is a licensed clinicalsocial worker who has supported
(01:46):
families through both human andanimal loss for decades.
Together, they've built a safespace where pet parents can
process their grief withoutjudgment, and they're bringing
their wisdom and warmth totoday's conversation.
We're going to talk about whyguilt after losing a pet is so
common, how to recognize that itis a normal part of grief and,
(02:08):
most importantly, how to releasethat guilt so you can truly
honor your pet's life and thelove that you shared.
So, ken and Nancy, welcome tothe show.
Yes, thank you very much, amy.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (02:18):
Nice to be here, Amy.
Amy Castro (02:20):
So glad to have you here.
So glad to have you here.
Before we kind of get too toodeep in the questions, I want to
share my own little experienceand why this episode is so
important to me and why I mean,I know we had talked about doing
an episode together for a whileand it's.
It's taken me a while to comeback around to it, but I've just
had a recent experience that Isaid.
You know, if I'm feeling thisway, after all, I have
(02:41):
experienced in rescue than otherpeople are probably suffering
through and I'm going to get allchoked up again.
It's crazy.
So we got this horse namedCherokee when we bought our
house in 2018, the people couldnot find a home for her and they
couldn't take her where she wasgoing, and so I get this phone
call the night before closingfrom the cellar crying and
(03:04):
asking if I would keep Cherokee,and I thought because she had
lived here for 18 years of herlife.
She was 34 when she passed away,and so I was like, sure, we'll
keep Cherokee.
And from there, we ended upacquiring a pony and three
donkeys, so she had plenty ofcompanions, but she was
suffering with Cushing's, and Ihave had this experience where
(03:25):
I've put I mean, I've puthundreds of animals to sleep,
sadly, and I've seen, you know,hundreds pass away in my 14
years of doing animal rescue butthis one was just brutal.
And I think what made it sohard was it wasn't a black and
white kind of thing, it wasreally I had to make a conscious
(03:46):
best decision, looking atdifferent factors and saying,
yes, let's do this now versuswaiting, versus giving her to
somebody else.
Why is that decision?
Well, even when it is black andwhite, why is that decision so
hard for people?
Do you think?
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (04:05):
I think it is because we so don't want to
kill our friend, and it's veryhard to move from killing to
ending their suffering, and Ithink that's just an extremely
hard decision for us to make,because it's also it doesn't
(04:26):
apply anywhere else in our livedexperience.
Really, it's not something thatcommonly happens in our
experience with other humanbeings.
And so I think jumping thehurdle of killing to ending
their suffering and then I think, amy, it's what you were
talking about which is there'sso much gray, it feels like
there's so much gray, and wehave a very hard time coming to
(04:50):
a decision of this magnitudewhen there's not absolute
certainty.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (04:56):
That's right .
It's one of those things whereyou know there's so much going
on and you want to make theright decision, but you don't
want to make that decisioneither, right?
That's what Ken's saying, right?
So you know, and for your horse, I mean, there was also
(05:16):
interesting when you were sayingthat, amy, I'm thinking there
were so many other things goingon in your life too at that time
, right.
Your life too at that time,right.
And when things are going on inour life that are affecting us,
then we have a little moreuncertainty about what we're
really doing or should be doing,because we're kind of jumbled
up with a lot of stuff and youknow, we certainly don't want
(05:37):
our animals to suffer and youknow, ken, and I have done this
for a long time.
Most people you know, ken, andI have done this for a long time
Most people either think thatthey made that decision to end a
life too soon or too late,right?
So?
Because there isn't any exacttime where you could say, yes,
(06:00):
what this animal did and at thisday, and this is what this
animal is going through, whichmeans that I need to make that
decision and I'm okay with it.
Most of the time people are notokay with it and even though
they may intellectually thinkokay, I guess because the
quality of life isn't there orthere are others, I think
(06:20):
because of your circumstances,the horse could not go with you.
I think that was part of thehorse could not go with you.
I think that was part of withthe horse, right, right, with
Cherokee, okay.
So then you're thinking, ohwell, I could, like you said, I
could give her away or I couldmaybe take her, you know, and so
that also complicates thatdecision right, yes, a hundred
(06:42):
percent, yeah, and it's.
Amy Castro (06:50):
You know, it's interesting that I literally had
the vet scheduled to come outlike six months ago she had a
really bad summer and it's like,okay, it seemed physically that
it was really really time andthen she kind of rallied and
then I canceled it.
But you're right, you know thecircumstance and you know the
listeners know that I'm in theprocess of of a move and I
talked extensively with the vetabout moving her or and I
couldn't take her with me.
That would be way too much.
But even a neighbor down thestreet offered to take her and
(07:12):
the vet was pretty adamant thatthat would probably in her
experience, that generallydoesn't turn out well.
The herd doesn't accept them,the animal is too stressed from
the change in environmentbecause she's been here so long.
Is that person willing and ableto provide the?
Because she needed pretty, youknow, she needed some medical
care that was not cheap andmedication that was not cheap,
(07:34):
and so I had all of that goingin.
And it's interesting youbrought up the timeline is, and
both of you mentioned it.
It's like when it's black andwhite it's easier and it's like
it even came down to the factthat here I am, we're sitting
here now.
At the end of February I madethe decision and I did euthanize
her.
I think it was two weeks ago.
You know, I could have waitedanother month.
(07:56):
I probably could have waitedanother two months.
I don't know when my house isgoing to sell, and so it was
like making that decision tojust make the decision.
What guidance do you givepeople as far as like, how do
you navigate through that?
And I'll tell you what I did inthe end was I ended up.
I actually looked into chat,gpt and said ask me some
(08:16):
questions that will help me makethe right decision, and it was
incredible.
The questions that I asked.
But yeah, but because I, youknow, as somebody that does
rescue, I could do the qualityof life thing, and I realized
that, you know, there's certainfactors that are just a little
more black and white for me, butthere was still so much gray
and so much guilt about makingthe decision.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (08:38):
We do use a quality of life skill, but on
top of that, that's subjectiveright.
How do we know that they'rehaving it Animals?
But on top of that, that'ssubjective right.
How?
Amy Castro (08:46):
do we know that?
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (08:46):
they're having it.
Animals can't tell us really,so how do we know they're having
a bad day or not, or how?
I mean?
We can watch them drinking ortheir food intake or their
mobility, but how do we knowwhen they're in pain?
Right, yeah, yeah, really.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (08:57):
I'll say that one of the things that I
think is most valuable isconsultation with other people.
So, yeah, so you're not alonein the decision, if at all
possible, that there's aveterinarian who, optimally, has
some history with the animaland has some knowledge of where
they are now relative to wherethey are the last time, the last
(09:19):
visit, the last few months, andthat you talk the decision over
with people who love andrespect you and hopefully also
have some familiarity with youranimal, because it is a, it's a
major decision and it's a reallygood thing to have support with
it.
so that's what I think.
I also believe that in a crisis, we are apt to be riddled with
(09:45):
anxiety.
We're at the vet's office webrought this happened to me a
number of times.
I bring my animal companionthere.
I know they're having a hardtime, but now I'm told that I
have to make a decision, thatthey're dying, and I feel like
we need to give ourselves graceand say okay, we take the
information we got from theveterinarian, we look at them,
(10:05):
we get a sense of where they are, we sit with it for a very
short period of time because wedon't want them to be lingering
in great distress, and then, ifwe make the decision to
euthanize them, we remindourselves that we made the best
decision that we could with theinformation at hand at that time
.
We keep reminding ourselves ofthat, because what will happen
(10:33):
is almost always we'll come backand we'll just torture
ourselves with questions.
Shouldn't I have taken themhome and waited a little while
longer?
Shouldn't I have gotten anotheropinion?
Should I have taken them 50minutes away to the emergency,
where maybe they could be in anoxygen tent?
Or should I have had thesurgery that they said was
vaguely possibly going toactually give them more time.
(10:57):
Ultimately, it comes down tojust being very kind to
ourselves.
One of the things that Nancyand I will ask people is if this
were a friend of yours who wastelling you the story that
you're telling us now, how wouldyou support them?
Would you say, oh my God, didyou think of this?
Did you think of that?
Why didn't you do this?
No, probably not.
(11:17):
Many people, particularly thekind of people who are so
conscientious with their animalfamily members, are so much more
empathic toward others thanthemselves, and so you can ask
them what would you tellsomebody who you loved and
respected who is telling you thestory you're telling us now?
(11:40):
And it can free them a littlebit to not be so damning and be
so challenging of themselves andtry to be kind to themselves.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (12:09):
It is painful, it is sad, but guilt is
really difficult.
Because any, I would say, themajority of people who, even if
the animal goes missing, even ifthere was an accident, why
didn't I let my cat out that day?
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (12:20):
Why did I do that?
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (12:21):
Right.
It's always there and it'sreally hard to work through
because, like I was saying, wecan't take it away from you.
But hopefully, as you talkabout it and as you work through
it, that you will eventually beable to forgive yourself and
incorporate the loss, becauseguilt is just.
(12:43):
It's really a difficult andchallenging emotion to go
through and most of us have itwith our animals.
Amy Castro (12:49):
Yeah.
Well and with people too.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (12:52):
Yeah, yes, with people too.
Amy Castro (12:56):
It's a similar process that we go through in
making some of those decisions.
I want to hit a couple ofthings that you mentioned.
First of all, like Ken, you hadmentioned about the
veterinarian being able to guideyou and I have many fantastic
veterinarians because of therescue for various types of
animals that the challenge thatI think people might run into
and maybe you can address thisis that it's fairly rare, unless
(13:18):
it's a real black and white,that the veterinarian will say
yes, I think you should do thistoday.
I literally told the vet whenshe came out here I'm probably
going to euthanize her, butbring her Cushing's medicine,
like you know, six months worth.
Just in case I changed my mind,like I, I was still.
(13:40):
I was still because I wanted herto look at her that last time.
But you know she would saythings like you know, I support
you in this decision.
I don't think it's a wrongdecision.
And when I start, you know andmaybe this is just the
communication maniac in methere's a big difference in
saying I support you in thisdecision or it's not a wrong
decision and saying it is theright decision.
You should absolutely do thistoday.
(14:02):
So that makes it a little bithard, do this today, and it
makes so that makes it a littlebit hard, and I can understand
why they wouldn't want to dothat because they don't want to
add to that guilt and thatfeeling that you feel, because
it's like, oh, I could havewaited till the weekend when my
daughter came home from collegeor something like that, and
could have said goodbye to thepet or you know things like that
.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (14:19):
It's really it's really difficult for
veterinarians because many yearsago years ago they would say
right.
I think that they were more aptto say, no, I think you need to
do this, but they got so muchpush back right and people would
get really angry and theywanted to know.
But they didn't want to know,right.
So what they do is really whatyour veterinarian is doing.
(14:42):
Well, you know it's not a wrongthing.
And they're thinking well,you're not saying you should do
it, you know.
So there's a lot of questionaround that, but they are taught
now not to really say too much.
Now, that said, some peoplewill say well, what would you do
to the veterinarian?
What would you do if it wasyour animal?
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (15:02):
That's my question to them.
I was just thinking the samething.
Amy Castro (15:06):
I always ask that question, yeah.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (15:09):
What my veterinarian has said and this
has happened on three occasions,I guess, in the last several
years.
What she'll say is well,clinically there is no path to
health here, but you love her,so you have to decide.
She'll always make thatdecision.
She'll say, clinically, this isthe way it looks and she's not
(15:33):
going to get better, but youhave to make the decision.
And then she'll kind of look atme like do the right thing, ken
.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (15:42):
Wink, wink, nod, nod.
Yeah, I find that.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (15:46):
I'll say what would you do if she were
yours?
And she'll be pretty clearabout it.
I mean pretty definite, like Iwould.
I would let her go, I wouldease her out, yeah, and I always
feel like they won't tell youwhat to do because they fear
liability, they fear a lawsuitright as yeah.
As we are an incrediblylitigious society, people
(16:06):
sometimes get outrageouslyemotionally overwrought in their
recriminations and they'll saywell, you told me, and so I can
understand that.
I also think it's important forpeople to realize the position
that the veterinarians are inand to not see them as a God
(16:27):
figure or somebody who has theultimate responsibility, because
we do have the responsibility,and that's why I think that the
guilt is so profound and I thinkthe guilt is so profound
because we've had responsibilityfor every aspect of this
animal's care and life, whatthey eat, what they do during
(16:49):
the day, the environment inwhich they live, food we give
them the medication we give themthe company they keep.
We are in control of all of thatand we're responsible for all
of that.
And so many people feel, Ibelieve, that we should be
responsible for preventing theirdeath, and I think that this
(17:09):
also ties into the fact thatmainstream culture is incredibly
phobic about the reality ofdeath.
And we need to get morecomfortable with the reality
that every living thing dies.
Every one of our animalcompanions is going to die,
we're going to die, our friendsare going to die, our children
are going to die.
We're all going to die and thatis not a catastrophe.
(17:32):
That is simply the law ofnature and we do not have
control over it.
And I feel like people justbeat themselves up because their
animal died and you know.
Really, the question is youdidn't expect this to happen.
Most, of our animal companionshave much abbreviated lifespans
(17:53):
compared to us, and so, when weadopt them into our family, we
know that we're likely to losethem and it's very important to
just keep that in mind and, asthe time approaches, to realize
that we cannot prevent this fromhappening.
(18:14):
We can make decisions about howto help it happen in the most
comfortable fashion and we cantake the best care of them
through illness and infirmity,but we cannot prevent them from
dying.
And really the last gift theway I see the last gift that we
give them, is as painless aspossible, a transition when
there is no path forward.
(18:35):
I remember making this decisionwith my mother when she was at
the very end of her life and washaving a conversation with my
brother who wanted to doeverything possible, including
coding her again, you know, thedefibrillator which had really
traumatized her and I remembersaying to him very pointedly I
said our task now is to help herdie as comfortably as possible.
(18:59):
There is no path back to health.
That is not possible.
That's why we're in hospice.
We don't want to just createmore trauma for her.
She is transitioning out ofthis life and that's what
happens.
Our animals, if we're lucky, ifthey're lucky enough not to be
killed in an accident or anemergent medical crisis.
(19:20):
That's where we're going to endup with them.
Amy Castro (19:22):
Right right medical crisis.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (19:25):
That's where we're going to end up with them
, right, right, sometimes.
I mean, you know, ken, therewas one of our people that came
on the podcast and he's stillstruggling, and you know it's
complicated because I think Amy,with Cherokee it was a little
complicated, right.
So his animal was elderly, haddementia and had mobility issues
(19:45):
.
Okay, and this was his sole dog, right, he loved this dog, but
he was the only one taking careof the dog and there were issues
in the family and they're like,oh, the dog's up all night
because he's sundowning and allthis and he had a bad bat.
It was really difficult.
There were so many things.
When he had decided maybe weshould euthanize him, the vet
(20:07):
came love this vet, know hergreat vet.
But what happened is?
He asked, is this the rightthing?
And she said well, look, thedementia is going to be a
problem.
Maybe he has another few weeksaround his mobility, right, he
chose to euthanize him and then,boom, it was like he could have
(20:38):
had a few more weeks.
Why did I do this?
Why did I do this?
She said that, you know.
And so I had to work reallylong time with him, you know, to
kind of go through that guilt,because after, obviously, the
death, he was not doing all thatphysical work.
He felt better, and the more hefelt better, the more he
believed that he did the wrongthing.
And this is what guilt does tous and, like Ken said, it's
(21:01):
really hard and we have toslowly work through it and not
be so hard on ourselves.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (21:07):
And I think that's an important point,
Nancy that with the death of aloved one, there are also some
changes that we experience asrelief, as opportunity, and that
doesn't mean that we don'tgrieve for them.
It doesn't mean that the lossis not very important to us, and
(21:27):
it doesn't mean that we'rebetraying them.
It's just the way life changesand this is something again that
people feel like did I do thisto free myself from this burden?
And they have to go back andsay, no, I did it because it was
the appropriate thing to do toend their suffering.
I mean, to me, the phrase thatkeeps coming back is end their
(21:50):
suffering.
That's what you do and, as yousaid, one of the things that you
notice over time is how manypeople think they did it too
soon and how many people thinkthey did it too late.
There are some people who areabsolutely okay with the timing.
We do hear that with someregularity but it's much more
(22:12):
likely that there's like thiswhole swirl of recriminations,
of woulda, shoulda, couldas, andI've said this many times.
One of the things when I getany of those kinds of feelings,
things when I, when I get any ofthose kinds of feelings, I look
at the boxes that have theirashes, I mean it's real, it's a
little morbid maybe, but itimmediately orients me to the
(22:32):
fact that they're not hereanymore.
And this is not helpful,because there's there's nothing,
there's nothing good that willcome from this, this chewing on
this emotionally more and moreand more, and so the reality is
you did the best time that youcould at the time, and their
(22:52):
life is over.
We don't know what that meansultimately for any of us, but
you're not going to change that.
There's no way to change it.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (23:01):
Right, but you're also never going to
forget them, right.
Amy Castro (23:04):
You're never going to forget them.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (23:06):
We talk a lot.
These animals are so importantto us, right?
They give us such gifts andsuch love and you can't have a
relationship with a human likeyou can with an animal.
So it doesn't mean that theymay be gone and that's
devastating and there is guiltaround it trying to work through
the guilt.
But they're always with us, youknow, and we have to remember
(23:36):
that because you know they gaveus that wonderful life with them
for so many years.
And sometimes and sometimes Imean people get really angry
when it's so soon.
You know when something happenswhen they're young, but if
they're older and have gonethrough a lot of life, you know
it's a little bit different, butthey still have given us so
much right.
Amy Castro (23:53):
Definitely yeah.
And do you think so?
Because, ken, you had mentioned, you know, when people question
themselves and they say, did Ido this for me or did I do this
for them?
I and maybe I'm wrong on Idon't think I am, but I I feel
like I did it when I did it forboth of us, I think it was time.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (24:13):
Could she have?
Amy Castro (24:15):
could she have gone on longer time?
Could she have gone on longer?
But we did an episode with thefounder of Lap of Love a while
back, the home hospice ineuthanasia, and she said and I'm
not going to quote her exactlyand I don't know if this is her
saying or from somewhere else,but better a week too early than
a day too late.
And Ken, you kind of alluded tothat as well, and so part of my
(24:36):
thinking was kind of going backto the questions that I asked
myself.
You know, like quality of lifefor her, because they're
obviously it's different fordogs and I think it is important
.
And Nancy youT was, you know,for a horse.
Remind me, what are those, whatare those elements?
(24:59):
And you know horses are herdanimals.
Her entire herd had beensystematically kind of removed.
The pony got adopted, thedonkey got adopted, the other
donkeys got adopted because weknew she wasn't going to be
going anywhere.
And you know as much as I wouldlook out the window every
morning and hope, oh, she'slaying down, maybe she.
You know, like I hoped Iwouldn't have to make that
decision.
(25:20):
You know it ultimately camedown to the fact of, yes, it was
like Ken said, her health wasnot going to get better.
The vet had mentioned thesummer was coming and it was
going to be brutal because ofthe.
You know, the heat is just alot for a Cushing's animal to
handle.
The heat is just a lot for aCushing's animal to handle.
But there was a little bit ofself-serving in there as well,
because, although she was nothard to take care of, here I'm
(25:43):
trying to sell my house.
I've got this old kind ofsickly-looking horse.
I didn't want people to comeand think, oh, you're not taking
care of that horse.
And, as morbid as this sounds,I thought about the fact of if I
wait till the very, very end,you know, if I'd waited another
month, let's say, now I havethis big burial mound in my
(26:07):
pasture and everybody's going tosay what's that?
And now I've got to tell themthere's a dead horse in their
backyard, kind of thing.
And you know I didn't want tohave those conversations or I
didn't want people to feeluncomfortable.
But one of the things that Ikind of console myself with is
what would have been gained forher to keep her around for
another month or two months orwhatever.
She's out there by herself, youknow, I don't know exactly how
she was feeling, but I can'timagine at 34 with Cushing's and
(26:28):
you know not being not havingmany teeth left.
You know she probably wasn'tfeeling awesome.
You know she probably felt whenshe was six or seven years old.
And so what would I have gainedby allowing her to stick around
a little bit longer?
Maybe I'd felt a little lessguilty.
I don't know.
I mean, I guess part of that ishow do you talk yourself
(26:49):
through that guilt, like I havethese little conversations where
I play my own devil's advocateto try to make myself feel
better.
What else can people do tonavigate that guilt?
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (26:59):
Well, I think one of the things you can
do is you can remind yourself ofthe care that you gave all of
those years and how deliberatethe decision was, and all of the
consultation you had, and thatpoint which the person from Lap
of Love and I think that's abrilliant way to put it better a
week too early than a day toolate and also think of the fact
(27:23):
that, indeed, your needs shouldfigure in to the formula.
They really should.
I mean, if you have an animalthat you simply cannot manage to
care for anymore and they areat death's door, you need to
take care of yourself too,because you deserve to have the
capacity to live a healthyexistence as well, and all these
(27:47):
things are on a continuum.
That's what I think makes it sochallenging.
I mean, we've heard one of theclassic stories that Nancy tells
is that the people broughttheir cat to the vet and asked
that it be euthanized because itno longer matched their new
furniture.
Amy Castro (28:05):
That was true.
I've heard things like thatmyself.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (28:08):
One end of a continuum of.
You know I have needs too, butwhat you're talking about is
this infinitesimally small otherend of the continuum where you
have to balance the fact thatyou have to manage your life too
, and so this comes up.
We see this a lot, with peoplewho simply cannot pay for what
(28:29):
would be needed next.
They would become destitute.
We recently had a person tellus that their animal was going
to cost over $2,000.
The animal was very sick.
They didn't have any more totheir name than $2,000.
They would literally bedestitute and they decided to
euthanize.
And what we said to them was youmade the right decision because
(28:54):
you need to live, you need tohave shelter.
You did the best you could,which is another way of thinking
about this.
We do the best we can with allthe resources that we have, both
internally inside ourselves andaccessible to us in the world.
But again, I see that, as aslong as that's navigated
(29:16):
thoughtfully and deliberately,as long as that's navigated
thoughtfully and deliberately,that idea of you know we're
going to be moving and they'rein the process of near death and
you know probably be a goodthing for this to happen before
the closing on the new, on theproperty that we selling, all of
that is reasonable, becausethey're not, they don't have
(29:37):
much time and you need to havean organized life that makes
sense too.
And so I think that's all ofthat, again, as long as it's
deliberate and it is not justlike flippant.
Like you know, there's a MontyPython skit where the family is
(29:58):
going away on vacation and oneof the family members says, well
, we have to put the cats down.
And one of the other ones asked, well, why?
And they said, well, wewouldn't want to come home to a
dead cat.
Now I mean, it's like that andthat's a joke in that, but like
that's, that would be the thatother end of the continuum.
Well, you know, we're kind ofdone with them.
We don't people who give awaytheir pets because they get to
(30:19):
be like seven years old andthey're not able to go running
with them anymore, maybesomething like that.
That's that other end of thecontinuum.
But we deserve to pay attentionto our own needs too and figure
them in.
That's the way I think about it.
Amy Castro (30:33):
Yeah Well, and you were talking about the financial
aspect of the paying forwhatever a procedure, medication
or whatever to buy what forthat pet.
It's like you now have putyourself in older pets and that
sundowning is not for the weakof heart.
I mean it is.
You lose a lot of sleep.
You know the older dogs.
(31:05):
You have urinate.
You're constantly cleaning uppee, you're putting diapers on
them and it's like at what pointis enough?
Enough for for both of you.
But you're right at the otherend of the spectrum.
I remember being appalled whenI used to volunteer at animal
control in a town over from hereand this very nice looking
couple came in and they weresuper excited about the fact
(31:26):
that they were retiring and theywere going to hit the road in
their RV and they wanted tobring their cats in to euthanize
them, not to give them up foradoption even.
They just wanted to euthanizethem and I think the cats were
like 10 and 12.
It's like I just want to punchyou in the face.
I'm sorry, that's just wrong.
We get it.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (31:44):
We see it, figure it out yeah.
Amy Castro (31:45):
I'm sure you see it.
Yeah, and we see that all thetime, with people coming to the
rescue to relinquish pets forwhat I feel are not the best
reasons, but maybe that pet'sbetter off.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (31:56):
Well, that's yeah, whenever I hear
that kind of story.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (31:58):
I'm like you know what kind of life were
they living if they were justlike an ornament in the home.
Amy Castro (32:04):
Yeah.
So if, if somebody is workingthrough this process and they're
struggling with the guilt andthey've heard what we've said so
far and they're stillstruggling with it, how
important is it for people toseek out help, community support
and you had mentioned somethingearlier, ken, about, you know,
talking with trusted people.
(32:25):
I have found, and this was inmy experience when my husband
passed away, I was literally onmy way to the hospital and he
was going to be put on aventilator, which was kind of
the beginning of the end, but uhand but he was conscious and he
was part of that decision and,um, I got a phone call from
somebody and instead of, I said,oh, I'm, this is what I'm doing
(32:47):
, I'm, I'm heading to thehospital for this.
And she's like, well, did youever go see that doctor?
I recommended, and I was like,yeah, no, oh, well, you really
should have.
She could have cured him.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (32:54):
And it's like this is not what I want to
hear right now.
Amy Castro (32:56):
What a nut and the doctor she was referring to was
a total nut job.
Like you know, a snake oilsalesman kind of kind of person,
and it's like, so my point withthat is you do need to be
careful who you reach out to andnot that I reached out to her,
but you know who.
You share this experience,because not everybody is going
to give you the compassion andhelpful communication that you
(33:19):
need.
But where can people find thatsupport?
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (33:22):
Well, there's websites.
There's a lot online now aboutlike PetLawsorg, petlawscom,
aplb, the Association of PetLaws and Bereavement.
You know podcasts, you know Ken, and I do ours, you know yes
we'll definitely put links inthe show notes to your podcast,
for sure.
It helps people.
(33:44):
I don't think like I can't.
We were talking about this lastnight.
Everyone that has written to usthat we share on the podcast,
right like Amy, they say thankyou so much for doing this,
because we really appreciatethat we don't feel so alone.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (34:00):
Isolation is one of the most painful
aspects of grieving and I'llalso mention that I facilitate a
Zoom pet loss group.
It's usually on the secondTuesday of the month and it runs
from 6 pm Eastern to 7.30 pm.
It's a Zoom meeting.
It's for anybody who across theworld may benefit from coming
(34:22):
together.
We cap it at 50 people.
We usually get about 25 to 30people and it doesn't cost
anything and it's something tosee that there are people from
everywhere that there might bean English speaking.
Yes, people from the UK, fromIreland, there's always people
(34:44):
from Australia.
We've got recently a personfrom Saudi Arabia, from
Singapore, and they sharestrengths.
Basically, they share stories,they share strengths.
There are different points inthe journey of coming to terms
with their loss, but those kindsof opportunities are really
important.
I want to just stress something, and Nancy and I have said this
many times Be cautious aboutwho you share this with in the
(35:05):
workplace.
Amy Castro (35:07):
Oh yeah, it's just a cat.
You can get another one.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (35:11):
Yes, and sometimes people you know they
may have a supervisor who seemsvery empathic and connected and
whatnot, and they tell themabout this and now the
supervisor thinks that they'renuts and won't give them a new,
expanded role, doesn't see themthe same anymore, questions
(35:32):
their confidence.
We've heard this too many timesto not mention it.
Right, heard this too manytimes to not mention it, and
I'll also say that one of thethings that I feel like you
experience is comes back toagain.
Our society has grown soshielded from death and from
negative feelings.
There's a great book by ajournalist she recently died,
(35:52):
three or four years ago BarbaraEhrenreich.
Barbara Ehrenreich wrote a bookcalled Bright Sided and it's
about the culture of positivityin our society, the idea that
you're always supposed to behappy and up and energized and
if you're not, well, you justneed to get with the program and
it's really.
There's a whole school ofpsychology called positive
(36:14):
psychology, which I've alwaysseen as being really problematic
for this reason, because lifeincludes a full palette of
emotions the good, the bad, thepainful, the confusing, the
awesome.
But we have a culture that hasgrown so apart from negative
(36:35):
feelings and I also oftenmention this that one day I
opened up my AOL account.
This was quite a many years ago.
Amy Castro (36:44):
I was going to say you're dating yourself now, Ken.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (36:46):
I don't really use AOL, I use Gmail.
Let's just be clear.
Amy Castro (36:50):
Yes, you do, because I can confirm that I emailed
him earlier today.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (36:54):
So and there was a headline that said
worst catastrophe for JuliaRoberts and I clicked on it and
her like 91 year old mother haddied and while that is sad and
painful, it is not a catastropheand I felt like we were being
infantilized, like that headlinewas so infantilizing like we're
(37:15):
not children, we know thatpeople die and that is not a
catastrophe, and I felt like itwas so emblematic of the very
childish way that mainstreamculture approaches many things,
death among them.
But there are people who, likewhen they hear a story that
somebody is dying or theiranimal companion has died, they
(37:38):
find it so rattling that theycan't be empathic, they can't
just be with you in yourdistress.
Many people they're notpracticed at being compassionate
.
Amy Castro (37:49):
No, that is a fact.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (37:51):
In order to be compassionate, you have to
be able to tolerate being inthe presence of somebody who is
in emotional pain.
And if you're not used to beingin the company of somebody who
has emotional pain and justknowing that you can tolerate
what that stirs in you, and justknowing that you can tolerate
what that stirs in you, thenyour impulse is to push it away
(38:13):
and to say things like well, youknow they were very old and
they were very sick and you knowmaybe you'll get another dog
soon and you know they're in abetter place now.
All kinds of things, all kindsof crazy things that are
actually going to be experiencedby the person who's grieving as
dismissal yeah, exactly youknow pretty much, like you're
(38:33):
dismissing how I'm feeling rightnow, when really all that you
can do that's helpful is justbear witness and be with them.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (38:40):
You can only listen and that's hard for
people because, like and yousaid, they don't want to deal
with their own pain they don'twant to deal with, with bad
things right so they get reallynervous or anxious and they say
things that they mean well butdon't mean well, I mean meaning
the context of the person rightand that makes it more difficult
.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (38:59):
Because it increases isolation Right, it
pushes the isolation further.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (39:05):
Right, and it's also important for grief in
total, to try to be gentle withourselves, right.
This is what we've been talkingabout with the guilt, but it
goes along for all of thoseemotions and it's really hard to
take care of ourselves, butit's really important to do so,
you know, to try to eat well andto get some rest and to do some
(39:26):
exercise.
A lot of times it's verydifficult to do that, but, you
know, but the gentleness, givingourselves a break, taking care
of ourselves, loving ourselves,you know, because this journey,
the grief journey, is verychallenging and it can be very
difficult and complicateddepending on the death.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (39:47):
It comes and goes.
It's not linear.
It takes whatever time it takes.
There's nothing wrong with youif it takes a long time.
Amy Castro (39:56):
Well, let me ask about that, because that's where
my mind was going.
I was thinking about what yousaid about not sharing at work
and how somebody might perceiveyou differently, because you're
feeling these big feelings aboutsomething that they don't think
is maybe of value or deservingof those big feelings.
At the same time, is there aplace where somebody has gone
(40:18):
from quote, unquote, normalgrief even though there is a
spectrum to a point where theyshould be seeking?
help beyond you know, maybebeyond a group like a grief
counselor or a psychologist orsomething like that, because
they're just stuck or their, youknow, their own quality of life
has now been negativelyimpacted.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (40:37):
Well, that's complicated grief, there is
such a thing and so, yes, atthat juncture, if it's gone on
and it's still as intense in sixmonths that it has been, you
know in the beginning, there'ssomething else happening in
there and it would be importantfor someone, especially around
animal loss, to find a pet losscounselor, because even grief
(40:59):
counseling which is really it'sa difficult thing to do, but
grief counseling in general doesnot necessarily address pet you
know I mean you could get atherapist.
That's really good with griefcounseling, but they don't quite
understand the nuances withcompanion animal loss.
So you know it would be helpfulto look for an actual pet loss
(41:21):
counselor.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (41:22):
And I would say also that there's no
downside to getting therapy andcounseling.
I mean, we're both therapists.
We've been in therapy ourselvesover and over again.
You know I'm a crazy person inmany ways, Aren't we all.
I don't feel like that's a badthing.
I think it's just part of thehuman condition.
(41:43):
Your mental health is acontinuum.
I don't believe that there arementally ill people and there
are mentally well people.
I think we are all floatingaround on that continuum.
I don't believe that there arementally ill people and there
are mentally well people.
I think we are all floatingaround on that continuum and we
go to different places, justlike all aspects of health the
physical, the social, thespiritual, the financial, all of
that and so we deserveself-care, and that often comes
(42:07):
in the form of a therapist or acounselor.
I will tell you that one thingthat I always keep in mind is,
if you are incapacitated, youcan't crack a smile for a period
of two weeks you can't get outof bed or you can't go to work.
Yeah, if you're incapacitated,you need to see a therapist.
If you start havingself-destructive fantasies or
plans or you're actually hurting, you need to see a professional
(42:31):
.
And not only.
But the language that I alwaysuse is deserve.
You deserve to see aprofessional, just like you
would see a specialist in anyother kind of medical care.
You deserve to see a therapist.
Amy Castro (42:46):
Yeah, that's, that's good, definitely good advice.
All right, so to wrap things up, I want to switch to not that
you know, this is all positiveand good advice, but maybe a
little a happier note to end on.
And we did an entire episode Ithink I'd mentioned this to
Nancy in our back and forthcommunication about, you know,
(43:06):
memorializing our pets and thethings, the products and the
things, ceremonies, things likethat.
But what have you seen frompeople you know, since you're
working with people in this areaand you've got your groups any
particularly unique orinteresting ways that you have
found that people have, numberone, honored their pets but made
that something that helped themto move I don't like to use the
(43:28):
word move on, but I like tofocus on moving forward.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (43:31):
Yeah, exactly To incorporate the loss.
Amy Castro (43:34):
I mean a lot of times.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (43:36):
You know we've got a lot of gardens.
You know memorials in thebackyard.
You know the little plaques,the dogwoods, or you know the
butterfly bushes right, all ofthat with a little, you see.
Or you know the butterflybushes, right, all of that with
a little, you see.
It's really.
The other day I was workingwith someone through the death
of her cat and the vet said thisand I wasn't aware of this I
(43:59):
know that a lot of people aregetting jewelry now.
You can have ashes put intodifferent types of jewelry.
She said that tattoos are nowtaking ashes.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (44:11):
I did not know that the tattoos are
including ashes.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (44:14):
Wow.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (44:15):
That sounds interesting.
Amy Castro (44:16):
So I yeah, I would have to talk to my doctor about
that before I did that.
Yeah, that sounds a littleunhygienic, but who knows right,
I mean, it's something you knowyeah, but I think that just
shows the wide range you knowfrom, from the more common um.
You know, I, even I, I I kindof went back and forth on this
because I've seen a lot ofvideos.
(44:37):
There's a.
If anyone wants to cry, you cango and um, try to find a video
about the horse with no tail.
But a lot of people will taketheir horse's tail, um, and I
was like I don't know, I waskind of torn about it, like what
am I going to do with her tail?
But in the end I thought I havethis one opportunity and then
it's not going to be availableto me.
So I did cut some of her hair.
(44:58):
I don't know what I'm doing.
It got stuck in a moving boxand you know.
But the young woman that I had,her name was Gia.
She actually works at a funeralhome in Charleston, south
Carolina.
I'll put the information backin the show notes on that.
But her beloved horse passedaway and it was very sudden and
(45:18):
she had the tail hair made intoa bracelet, so it's amazing the
products that are available.
Another thing that Dr Mary fromLap of Love had mentioned was,
you know, people doing kind of alast party for their pet and
things you know kind of an Irishwake type of thing.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (45:31):
Oh sure.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (45:32):
Yeah, yeah , before or after the pet.
Amy Castro (45:35):
But yeah, I think you know, finding those kindred
people to celebrate the life ofyour pet and then, whether you
do anything with the ashes ornot, or whether you do something
with the paw print no harm, nofoul to get it done and then you
can decide later on what youwant to do.
But I think it's something toconsider.
If you even think you mightwant to do something later on
(45:57):
like you said, a piece ofjewelry or something like that
go ahead and get the ashes backso that you have that
opportunity.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (46:04):
And there's.
I mean Ken and I, we've beenthrough this a lot, so a
creative endeavor.
You know writing a poem,writing a song.
You know doing scrapbooks.
You know having a little placein the house.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (46:19):
Like a lot of people have their little
ashes in different.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (46:22):
I have teapots right, so I have little
teapots.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (46:24):
You have all the little boxes.
Oh, that's cute.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (46:26):
And hair you know, and so our memorial
garden, you know, have littleplaques or something.
Or we had a guy.
Years ago there was a man whomade guitars and he literally
took a white guitar and had hisdachshund's portrait on it.
Oh, wow.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (46:46):
Yeah.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (46:46):
Yeah.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (46:47):
I mean there's all kinds of things.
There's so many.
One of the things I've heard alot recently that I think is
very interesting is peoplecarrying artifacts from their
dogs so they might go for a walk, and they've always got their
dog's collar in their pocket oraround their wrist or they keep
their tags.
It's very interesting to me.
We've seen more and more ofthat, where they do these
(47:10):
rituals of repeating and goingto places where places that were
familiar to them with theiranimal companion.
But they've got something oftheir animal companion with them
, yeah, and it's just very, veryinteresting to hear how
meaningful that is for people.
Yeah.
Amy Castro (47:28):
Yeah, but I think it's also okay for people Like
one of the things that I havestarted.
I mean I did take the tail hairfrom Cherokee because I mean
she's literally the only horse Ihad, a horse when I was in
junior high, but like other thanthat, she's been my only real,
you know, adult, adult horse.
But when I look at dogs andcats, I've had a lot of pets and
I noticed that at one pointthat I had an awful lot of those
(47:51):
plastic boxes just lined up onthe same shelf with my shoes in
my closet.
I know that sounds terrible.
They were not being honored andit's like, okay, how many pets
ashes am I going to stack up?
And like, am I going to have tobuy a storage unit for these at
some point?
So what I did was I I couldn'tquite just throw them away or
get rid of them, but what I didwas I took like a little bit
(48:14):
from each one and put them inone box.
So, just so I still have them.
I didn't, you know, but um, butthen even with my last few pets
that I've had to euthanize, Igot the little paw print that
the vet does, but I did not gettheir ashes back and and I don't
(48:37):
feel guilty about that becauseit's like this is how I decided
to do it.
Now it's getting the ashes backmade me feel better back then I
don't.
I don't feel that need.
Now it's okay to change.
So I just want people torealize that no matter what you
do, it's about you know your petis gone.
So it's about what brings youcomfort.
If it brings you comfort tohave them, great.
If you don't need that and thememories or the photographs or
whatever you've got are goodenough, then fine.
It's not about what otherpeople do, it's about what makes
(48:57):
you feel right.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (48:58):
No, it's about how you want to do it and
how many times you want to do it.
What feels?
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (49:02):
right to you and it could be very
different in differentcircumstances.
One of my cats is buried in mygarden and I planted a whole
bunch of coreopsis on top of her, so it's perennials.
Always I, whenever I go bythere, I say hello to her.
Others of my dogs are all inlittle little boxes of ashes and
chickens I take up and leavefor the coyotes up at the woods
(49:25):
when they die yeah, I mean yeahand to me like yeah, it's, it's
it, but it you know, justwhatever makes sense to you
individually and because thereare not prescribed rituals the
way there often is in acommunity of faith for our human
beings, like if you're a partof a particular sect of
christianity or whatever otherfaith.
(49:47):
There, when we die there's anexpectation that there's a
certain pattern of ritual thatyou're going to go through.
That doesn't happen with ananimal campaign.
It can, yeah, it can, but so wehave to.
We do what feels right for themand for us at the time.
Amy Castro (50:05):
Right, right.
So for somebody that is goingthrough this right now either
they're contemplating having toeuthanize a pet or they just did
it and they're in the thick ofthings any final thoughts or
advice for them?
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (50:19):
Yeah, I mean.
For me, grief is about puttingone foot in front of the other
and keep going and you try to beas loving and gentle as we both
said toward yourself as you canbe and also just accept that
this is what you signed on for.
The flip side of love is grief,and we will experience it many,
many times in life with all ofour important relationships and
in the end, far down the road,we're wiser and stronger usually
(50:42):
.
Nancy Saxton-Lopez (50:43):
Yeah, yeah, also, it's a process.
All of the emotions are valid.
They're always valid.
It's going through the processof them and trying to take care
of yourself.
The last task of mourning is totake in the loss in your daily
(51:04):
activities so that you'veincorporated the loss into you
and that you can go through yourlife again.
Will you always grieve?
Yes, we always grieve.
We always think about those whohave died.
But what they're saying now?
The amount of grief is equal tothe amount of love.
Amy Castro (51:23):
Well, ken and Nancy, thank you so much.
I feel like I just had atherapy session with you both.
You can send me a billafterwards, but I appreciate
your experience and your wisdomand advice and I hope that
everything that we talked abouttoday is super helpful to those
of you who are listening,because you know it's
interesting.
We've done a couple of episodes, like one that was really one
(51:45):
or two that was really directlyabout the death of a pet, and
they always tend to be.
I call them the slow burners,because it's not like everybody
says, woohoo, I can't wait to goout and listen to that, but
it's there when you need it andum and there's have been some.
To me they've been some of thebest episodes that we have done
on the show, including includingthis one.
Ken Dolan DelVecchio (52:05):
I think too, for being here.
Thanks so much for theopportunity.
Thank you.
Amy Castro (52:09):
Thanks for listening to Muddy Paws and Hairballs.
Be sure to visit our website atmuddypawsandhairballscom for
more resources and be sure tofollow this podcast on your
favorite podcast app, so you'llnever miss a show.
And hey, if you like this showtext someone right now and say
I've got a podcastrecommendation.
You need to check the show outand tell them to listen and let
you know what they think.
(52:29):
Don't forget to tune in nextweek and every week for a brand
new episode.
And if you don't do anythingelse this week, give your pets a
big hug from us.
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