Want Goats? What You Need to Know Before You Regret It

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Amy Castro (00:02):
Oh, you think you want a goat.
How cute.
Bless your heart.
And for those of you not fromTexas, bless your heart is not a
blessing, it's a Texan's niceway of saying you're an idiot
Because you're picturing lazyafternoons with your little goat
buddies frolicking in the yard,nibbling grass, like some
Pinterest perfect farm fantasy.
Well, buckle up, buttercup,because today we're going to

(00:24):
smack that goat delusion rightout of you like a 200-pound buck
in full run.
Goats are not dogs.
They don't fetch, they don'tcuddle and they sure as hell
don't care about your feelings,unless you've got a pocket full
of food.
They scream like banshees, theyannihilate all vegetation and
other things in their path andthey can escape from fences that
could hold back SEAL Team 6.

(00:45):
And yet people keep makinghorrible goat-related life
choices.
That's why today I am joined byDebra Neiman, homesteader, goat
expert and host of the podcastFor the Love of Goats.
Debra has seen it all, fromdreamers who think they're
getting a backyard petting zooto the poor souls who realize
way too late that they'veactually adopted hell on hooves.

(01:08):
By the end of this episode,you're going to either be
running for the hills orpossibly doubling down on your
goat chaos dreams, but at leastyou'll be fully prepared for the
mayhem ahead.
Either way, don't say we didn'twarn you.
So, debra, let's do this.

Deborah Niemann (01:21):
Welcome to the show.
Yes, oh, my gosh, I love thatintroduction.
That's fabulous.
Thank you.
So, debra, let's do this.
Welcome to the show.
Yes, oh, my gosh, I love thatintroduction.
That's fabulous.
Thank you, I'm so happy to behere.
I was sitting over here tryingnot to hurt myself laughing
because everything you said wasso true and so accurate.

Amy Castro (01:36):
Yes, I've lived it personally, I've lived it
vicariously through other peopleand obviously nobody knows this
.
But I met Debra very recentlyat a thing called PodFest and we
were in the same session, kindof sitting across the room from
each other, and there's not aton of pet podcasters or animal
related podcasters at PodFest.
I know of one other other thanmyself and Debra and so when she

(01:58):
asked a question and she's likeI've got a goat podcast, I
thought, ooh, I've got to grabthat lady after this session and
get her on my show, because Ithink people get themselves in
over their heads because they'vecreated this fantasy or they've
watched a video on TikTok orsomething like that and they see
people living with goats andother critters and they think

(02:18):
that that's what life is like,just what they're seeing in that
video, and they don't see allthe other stuff that can make
life relatively miserable ifyou're not prepared for it.

Yeah, that is a fantastic summary of where a
lot of people are coming from.
A lot of times people ask melike, do you have goats?
And it's like, well, yeah, ofcourse I have goats, and so that
means I have people calling meto buy goats and so many people
who contact me.
It is so, so, sadly obviousthat the only thing that they
know about goats is what theyhave seen on those entertainment

(02:50):
videos.
You know they don't know whatthey eat.
They don't know what they needfor housing or fencing.
They think it can live in theirhouse like a dog that they can
house train it.
It's going to sleep in theirbed.
You know they have completelyunrealistic expectations.

Amy Castro (03:06):
Yeah Well, and even when you know, obviously our
goal with this episode is not totell people that goats are
horrible creatures.
Well, maybe that's notDeborah's goal.
My goal might be to tell you alittle bit that there can be
horrible creatures, but I thinkyou can't stress enough with any
type of an animal that it's along-term commitment and you
need to know what thatcommitment is going to entail.

(03:29):
Because even with adopting outdogs and cats we've run into
that in our rescue is that I cantell people over and over again
, just as a quick example, alady that recently adopted a
kitten and I said when you gethome, don't just open the
carrier and let this cat out torun through your 3,000 foot
house, because it'll quicklyfind the worst place, like under

(03:49):
your bed, to decide that'swhere it's going to go potty.
And you'll discover it in acouple of weeks, after it's
become a great habit.
And of course, that's exactlywhat she did.
And then she's wanting toreturn the cat because it's
pooping all over her house.
Well, why is it all over yourhouse?
So we're hoping that you listen, listen to us, listen to me,

(04:12):
linda.
We're telling you the truthhere.
I'm trying to save you from alot of pain.
And the goat, you know, orwhatever the animal is.

Yeah, exactly, all right.

Amy Castro (04:17):
So let's let's talk about some of the misconceptions
, because you mentioned aboutliving in the house being like a
dog.
So let's dispel the myth thatgoats are like dogs, because I
can see why people might getthat idea.
You know, the person on thevideo goes out, the goat comes
running.
It follows them around justlike a dog.
But what's the difference thatpeople really need to understand

(04:39):
?
I mean, I know there's tons ofthem and we're going to get into
some of those others separately, but just generally, in your
experience, Well, goats arevegetarians, first of all, and
contrary to the myth that theywill eat anything, including 10
cans, oh yeah like the oldcartoons.

Yeah, they actually have a very sensitive
digestive system and they havefour stomachs, including a rumen
, which is one of the bigdifferences between them and us,
and dogs and cats andmonogastric animals you know,
those of us with one stomach.
So that rumen is a giantfermentation vat.
It needs to be working 24-7.

(05:18):
And so when a goat is out onpasture, where it belongs, it's
going to spend a huge part ofits stay eating.
It's basically going to keepeating until its rumen is full.
So that's why you'll see theleft side will sometimes just be
huge.
And then, once their rumen isfull, they go lay down somewhere

(05:39):
, they burp up everything, theyjust ate.
I know, I know, I'm like goatsare so lucky they get to eat
everything twice.
Yeah, it's so special.
Yeah.
So they burp it all up, youknow, one mouthful at a time.
They chew it all again and thensend it back down to their
second stomach.

(05:59):
So how are they going to dothat in your house?

Amy Castro (06:03):
Right.
And how are they going to eveneat all day?
I mean, can you imagine youraverage person's yard?
You know you're going to haveto be providing a ton of not
cheap food and varieties ofthings for them to eat.
It can't just eat your lawn.
And I think that's another hugething that people don't
understand.

You're not going to mow your lawn for you.
They're actually browsers, notgrazers.
And that does not mean theylike to shop.
It means browse is like bushes,and so if goats had their pick
of anything in the world to eat,they would walk around eating
bushes and baby trees and thingslike that.

(06:41):
So you know, one man was justso shocked when I tried to
explain to him.
No, you cannot teach the goatto not eat your rose bushes.
That would be like trying toteach a dog not to eat steak.
You know, yeah, like that'sjust their nature.
When people say goats will eatanything, they mean that they're
going to eat the stuff in thepasture that nobody else is

(07:04):
going to eat.
They'll eat poison ivy andthey're fine with it.
Isn't that crazy, yeah?
And so they're going to eat allthe floribunda roses that cows
completely ignore.
This is why ranchers love toget them out there, because
floribunda roses are so invasiveand goats just love them, and

(07:25):
so they eat all that stuff.
So you've got to keep that inmind, the fact that a dog you
can feed once or twice a day,and that's it, and that's not
how it works with goats Like.
I don't know anybody who wantsto have a hay feeder in their
house.
Yeah, no kidding.

Amy Castro (07:39):
And just the cost of hay if you haven't priced that
out lately, check that out andthen storing.
And it's messy.
And I didn't realize thatbecause when I bought this house
we have a little pasture outfront and the size it was plenty
big enough for the amount ofgoats that we had.
But there's not really otherthan the stuff that kind of
grows up alongside the fencewhich they made very quick work

(08:00):
of.
There's not a lot of stuff toeat out there for them.
So we had to move them aroundand boy, any chance they could
get into my expensivelandscaping and decimate it.
They did.
Yeah, and the poison ivy thinglearn that the hard way.
Because as they're eating thatpoison ivy, guess where it's
getting All over their faces, ontheir mouths, and guess what

(08:20):
they do next.
They rub it on your bare legsand guess what you have next A
nice raging case of poison ivy.
So yeah, that's fun, that'salways fun.

Yeah, so they have an urge to eat all day long
.
And just because you don't haveappropriate goat food doesn't
mean that they're not going tocheck it out and, in the wild,
if they take one bite of a plant, that gives them a bellyache
they just know.
I'm never going to go back tothat plant.
Well, in your house, if theyjust take one bite of a plastic

(08:51):
bag that can completely block uptheir rumen and kill them.
On my website I have picturesthat someone gave me because
someone sold her a baby goatbottle fed, which they kept in
their house for two months, noproblem, thought, everything was
just wonderful, and then oneday they realized something was

(09:11):
off and they took the goat tothe vet and when the vet did
surgery he removed four or fiveof the plastic pimples from the
Mr Pimple Popper game.
A plastic bag, hair ties,several balloons, all these
things that this baby goat hadbeen eating, that it should not

(09:33):
have been eating because thesethings are not edible.
But the baby goat was oldenough now to be eating solid
foods.
It wasn't happy with just itsbottle anymore and because these
people were not providing itwith hay all day, it went't
happy with just its bottleanymore and because these people
were not providing it with hayall day, it went looking for
something else, and sadly, thebaby goat died, and so that's
why, when I heard about this, Isaid can I use these pictures?

(09:57):
put them on my website so thatpeople can see?
This is what can happen if youtry to keep a goat in the house.

Amy Castro (10:04):
Yeah, and then, if you think about it, if you're a
nice person which I knoweverybody listening to this
podcast is a nice, animal lovingperson Imagine how you're going
to feel when you realize thatwas 100% your fault.
I mean, I'm sorry to say it,but that's what we do on Muddy
Paws.
We're telling the truth andit's like it's 100% preventable.
Well, maybe not, because youcan't maybe prevent a balloon
that happens to blow into yourappropriate outdoor enclosure.

(10:25):
However, when you've got it inthe house, it's just it's your
fault, it's not the goat's fault.
Let's talk about poop Cause.
That's another thing that Ithink I didn't realize.
Number one, how much they poopand how it just kind of comes on
out when they're walking along,like it's not like a plan thing
, it's not like a walking thing,or am I wrong?
Did I interpret thatincorrectly?

No, they totally just let the poop fly
when the urge hits them.
You can teach a baby goat topee on a towel, but you can't
teach them the differencebetween a towel and a pair of
blue jeans and an area rug.
But with poop, no, the poopjust flies.
You know, like you said,they're just, they're walking

(11:04):
along and just shooting out,yeah, yeah.

Amy Castro (11:09):
And and what about emotionally?
Like you know, you see theseagain, videos of people loving
and cuddling and hugging thebaby goats.
But the goats do they enjoyhuman affection in the same way,
or maybe not even the same?
Do they enjoy it?

And do they give it kind of in a similar way
that dogs would, or are theyjust kind of like get off me?
Yeah, they're not going to beexactly like dogs, and this is
why a lot of people want to getbottle babies, because if you
take a baby, that's a newbornand you feed it a bottle and
you're the only living creatureit knows it's going to bond to
you.
But the downside to that isthat they are herd animals, so
first of all, you should neverhave just one.

Amy Castro (11:50):
Yeah, so that's going into our second myth is
you can't just have oneOtherwise you can have a
miserable goat right.

Yeah, and then if you are the herd mate, you
have to be with it 24, seven,and that's what people don't get
.
You know, they're like so theyget the bottle, so they get the
bottle baby, and they've got itin their house.
They're giving it a bottle.
It gets bigger.
They're like oh, this is notgoing to work anymore.
I need to put you outside inthe backyard and it starts

(12:22):
screaming nonstop because it isnow alone, like mama, just left,
left, and it is going to screamnonstop.
So again, these were some ofthe things.
We've had goats since 2002.
And we learned some of thesethings the hard way.

Amy Castro (12:35):
Yeah, so we learned those things the tough way
sometimes.
So yeah, so you're, so you're infor all of the chaos that we
talked about so far.
You're in for the fact that youcan't just have one, so you're
going to have some kind of achaos that we talked about so
far.
You're in for the fact that youcan't just have one, so you're
going to have some kind of asmall herd.
What about the myth thatthey're pretty easy to care for?
Because, I mean, I found themrelatively easy to care for only

(12:57):
from the standpoint of havinghad horses before and knowing
what goes into the hoof trimmingand things like that.
Not that that's easy to do, butwhere do people get into
trouble there?

You know it sounds easy and in fact the
reality is again, because goatsare browsers, they actually have
really high mineralrequirements.
Their nutrient requirements arevery strict and so if you just
get a couple castrated males aspets, you might be able to just
stick them in the pasture, makesure they've got pasture and hay

(13:27):
and water and trim their hoovesand stuff.
But if you're going to havegoats for milk, if you're going
to have babies, then you'regoing to have a world of
fertility problems if thosegoats are not getting the proper
nutrients, Like goats are notgoing to come into heat, they're
not going to get pregnant,they're not going to stay
pregnant.
That was a problem we had inthe beginning.
We had all kinds of problems andwe didn't know that our goats

(13:51):
were copper deficient and somany people are like oh, I'm
just going to mix my own feed, Idon't want to buy a commercial
feed.
And it's like you know what youcould do that with cows and
sheep because they're naturallygrazers, and what you could do
that with cows and sheep becausethey're naturally grazers and

(14:11):
so their mineral needs are verydifferent.
But you can't do that withgoats.
I don't know anyone who'sreally had productive, healthy
goats who didn't use acommercial feed for their
milkers, and the pregnant goats.
You know, for the males that'sa whole different world, because
an intact male is justproducing sperm, so that's not
very hard, but I mean they dostill need the correct minerals,
so they still have to have agoat specific mineral mix.

Amy Castro (14:31):
So imagine that's like the difference between
going to the local PetSmart andgetting a good bag of dog food
versus the people that gothrough the trouble of trying to
make it from scratch and thenhaving to get the supplemental
minerals and mixing those in.
And you've got to get it right,otherwise you're not going to
have healthy animals.

Yeah, in fact you know what one lady said to
me.
She's like I just don't buythis.
I make my own dog food.
I don't understand why I can'tmake my own goat food.
And I said your dog is onlytrying to sustain itself.
It is not trying to grow babiesand make milk for your whole
family.
Like you're asking a lot, it isnot trying to grow babies and
make milk for your whole family.
Good point You're asking a lotof these goats and if you're
going to ask a lot of them, thenyou're going to have to give

(15:11):
them the kind of nutrition thatyou can't just get from just
mixing up a few grains and herbsand stuff.
Like it really has to beconcentrated minerals.

Amy Castro (15:22):
Yeah, so you're talking about goats having
babies, things like that, and Iknow this is probably shocking
to somebody that keeps goats.
But if you would explain topeople, if people want goat milk
and they've got this fantasythat they're going to have goat
milk for their family andthey're going to make cheese and
they're going to make soap andwhatever else, can they just get
a couple of female goats andjust milk them and that's how it

(15:43):
works.

No, you know what it's so funny the first
time somebody called me.
And she called me and said shewanted to buy a couple goats
because she wanted to makecheese and stuff.
And then she said so what do Ido to get them to start making
milk?
And I did not even understandthe question.
I was like what?
And she's like well, I'm goingto, I want to make cheese, so

(16:07):
what do I have to do to get themto start making milk?
And then it finally clickedthat she didn't know that they
had to get pregnant and havebabies and that they're actually
making the milk for theirbabies.
And then you could.
You know, after the babies arebig enough and you know eating
enough other foods and stuff,you can start using some of the
milk and how long does that last?

(16:29):
At least a couple months.
The babies need to be on momfull time for at least a couple
months.
I want my Nigerian dwarf babiesto be 20 pounds before I start
separating them overnight.
I start separating themovernight Because by the time
they're 20 pounds, they're bigenough their tummy's big enough
that they can actually consume adecent amount of solid food to

(16:50):
help them keep growing.
But until then, they reallyneed to drink their calories,
you know, and get all theprotein and calcium that they're
only going to get from milk insuch a concentrated way, Right.

Amy Castro (17:02):
So it's kind of like a window of opportunity.
So basically, just soeverybody's getting this right
from milk in such a concentratedway, right?
So it's kind of like a windowof opportunity.
So basically, just soeverybody's getting this right.
If you think you're going toget goat milk, you have to have
a goat, you have to have someway to get that goat pregnant.
Now you've got babies, so nowyou have multiple goats, which
you probably started with.
Your herd has grown.
You've got to let them havetheir share of the milk.
Then you're going to get awindow of opportunity where you
can get some milk and milk thatgoat.

(17:23):
And then does that go onforever, deborah, or does that
dry up, and now we have to startthe whole thing over again.

Yeah, so it does not go on forever.
In the commercial world theyusually rebreed cows and goats
and sheep every year so thatthey get that high production
that you get within the firstyear.
Sometimes you know, if you'vegot some goats with good
genetics you can milk them for acouple of years before you
breed them again.

(17:49):
But there is a limit, you know,and then you're going to have
to breed them again and havemore babies, and I always tell
people that you've got to have aplan for those babies you know?

Amy Castro (17:59):
Yeah, Because you're going to eat.
You're either going to bekeeping them and then it's a
matter, are you?

going to breed those as well.
And now you've got exponentialamount of animals, Are you going
?

Amy Castro (18:15):
to spay and spay.
I know they use castrate forthe males.
What word do they use for thefemales Hysterectomy?

no-transcript.
No, you just fix the boys.
A hysterectomy in a goat issuch a big deal that a lot of
times they just do an ovorectomy, and they usually only do that
if the goat has some kind of amedical problem where the
ovaries have to be removedbecause they're just cycling
nonstop.

(18:38):
That's a problem too.
I always tell people if you'rejust going to have pets, get a
couple of castrated males, and areputable breeder is going to
castrate them for you.
They're not going to give youan intact male.

Amy Castro (18:52):
Let's talk about that intact male though, because
that's the other thing if youwant to have babies or whatever.
So when you don't castrate agoat, what's the fun of that
other than the fact that theycan reproduce?

So this is one of the things that really turns
people off from goats.
This is the goat version oflike cologne.
I guess that turns on theladies, because male goats will
pee on themselves, and when Ifirst heard that I thought, oh,
I guess they're just messy.
But no, it actually it's notlike your husband missing the
toilet or your son or whoeverelse.
Yeah, no no, they havedirectional control and it is

(19:29):
completely mind blowing to mostpeople when they first see it,
because he can basically turnaround and pee on his face.

Amy Castro (19:38):
And they do.
And it's very funny to watch,but not great to smell.

Right, yeah, exactly.
And this is why, like I really,really, you know, people are
like oh, I want all my goats tobe bottle fed, so they're
friendly.
I'm like I don't want any of mybucks to be bottle fed, because
then they think I'm theirgirlfriend.
And so, when you know, I haveliterally like put a buck in
with a doe in a stall in thebarn and gone over there to

(20:03):
check on him and he comes andjumps up on the door and starts
blubbering in my face and I'mjust like, ew, get away from me.

Amy Castro (20:13):
Yeah, it's nasty.

It is so nasty and it's like it's really the
bottle baby, the bottle bucksthat do that because they don't
have that separation.
They're like, oh, you're one ofme, I'm one of you.

Amy Castro (20:27):
I'm going to get my stink all over you, yeah, yeah.

And they'll pee on your does as they're dancing
around doing their littlepre-mating dance.
They might pee on her, theymight pee on her udder, and so
that's where goat milk has areputation for tasting nasty.
Because if you let a buck runwith your does, that's what they
do they pee on them, they rubon them.

(20:53):
The bucks need to be keptseparate from the does to avoid
unwanted breedings number one.
But also, if you're milkingyour does, the milk is going to
be nasty if the bucks arerubbing on them and peeing on
them and all this kind of stuff.

Amy Castro (21:06):
Yeah, so you have to basically set dates and
appointments to make that happen, right?

Exactly If you want to keep everybody separate.

Amy Castro (21:14):
Yep.
Well, I don't know about you,debra, but this sounds all like
an awesome opportunity.
Not really an awesomeopportunity, not really.
But you know another thing evenif people have gotten to this
point and they're like, I stillthink I want to do this.
What about the legalities ofjust having goats in your yard?

Yeah, you really need to know what the
laws are, and not just the laws,but also any covenants you
might have.
You know so many people justassume that it's going to be
legal for them.
My daughter lives in SouthDakota on 10 acres right now and
it is not legal for her to havemore than four goats.

Amy Castro (21:50):
There's a limit.

And the other thing is, even if it's legal,
then there's still going to bethings like noise ordinances
that you need to worry about.
You know, there was a ladyyears ago who got a weather and
a doe from me and after a yearand a half she called me up one
day in an absolute panic becauseshe had gotten a ticket from

(22:13):
the city and they said that theywere going to be fining her
$100 a day for every day thatthose goats were still in her
yard because they were breakingthe noise ordinance.
And that was a doe, and so thisis why I said earlier like,
just get a couple of weathers.

Amy Castro (22:30):
And a weather is a castrated male.

Yes, a weather is a castrated male.
A doe is going to come intoheat every 21 days and she might
be kind of quiet and coy andshy, but she might also be
screaming at the top of herlungs.
She could be a dirty hoe, shecould, yeah.
So she could be screaming atthe top of her lungs, hoping
that a buck hears her and comesand finds her.

(22:55):
Yeah, that's what was happeningwith this lady is that, you
know, every three weeks her goatwas screaming her head off for
about 24 hours.
After a year and a half, herneighbors were like enough, no
more, we can't.
We can't deal with this, yeah.

Amy Castro (23:10):
Yeah, and imagine if you're not an acreage and
you're really close to yourneighbors, it's not going to be
appreciated.
You don't need that.

And she was in a typical.
She was in a typical suburbansubdivision.

Amy Castro (23:19):
Yeah, bad choices.

Bad life choices?
Yep, I don't.
I really don't sell goats topeople who live in subdivisions
anymore and I try to explain tothem why and like I really hope
you're not going to just go findsomebody else to sell you a
goat, because this could endreally badly.

Amy Castro (23:34):
Yeah, I know, and hopefully they believe you.
I spend a lot of time tellingpeople like I understand your
intentions are good, but I'vebeen doing this for X number of
years and I've heard the samething and here's how it turns
out.
And you know, if they go findsomebody else, then I can't
control that, but I highlyencourage them to think about it
before they go down that path.

(23:54):
So I find it fascinating thatwhen we talked about this, you
said I want to discourage peoplefrom having goats and I'm like
good, because I don't think theyshould have them either.
I want to discourage peoplefrom having goats and I'm like
good, because I don't think theyshould have them either, but
yet your podcast is called Forthe Love of Goats.
So if somebody is still in andthey want to try to pull this
off successfully, what are somethings that they need to
consider?
Like I know, the fencing was ahuge issue for us.

(24:17):
What are some guidelines there?

So you need goat-proof fencing.
Which one thing you do not wantis barbed wire.
You know it's made for cattleand horses which have really,
really thick skin.
Goats have really soft, thinskin.
I actually personally helpedtwo people who had does that
ripped open their udder onbarbed wire, and one of them

(24:44):
took months and months to healbecause milk was leaking out of
that wound 24-7 as the goat wasproducing it.
The other one the family,finally decided to put her down
because they could not get it toheal.
So definitely no barbed wire,because that's just going to
injure your goat and it's notgoing to stop them.
The goat's going to get rippedup as they're running through it

(25:06):
.
Woven wire is usually very good.
If you have electric, you needto make sure that it is close
enough, like six inches apart,maybe nine inches if you've got
big goats, because goats learn alot from each other and it only
takes one to run through therefor the others to go.
Oh, you can do that, Okay.

(25:28):
And then they do it too andthey're herd animals.
So they're like oh, my buddy,just oh, and they run through.
They get shocked.
Oh, that wasn't so bad, I justgot shocked as I was running.
Yeah, it was quick.
It was quick, it was worth it.
Yeah, so woven wire is myfavorite.
If you've got big goats, youmight want to put a strand of
electric across the top so thatthey don't jump up and then put

(25:53):
their feet on top of it and justfall over, Just kind of push
down and slide over.

Amy Castro (25:57):
yeah.

Yeah, so if you've got the electric on top
and they put their feet up there, they're going to get shocked
and then they'll just jump back.
The electric on top and theyput their feet up there, they're
going to get shocked and thenthey'll just jump back.
But with smaller goats like theNigerian dwarfs or pygmies,
woven wire is usually your bestoption.

Amy Castro (26:09):
Right and so and you mentioned that.
You know.
Just, we've talked about howthey're somewhat indiscriminate
in what they eat.
So if you've got apple treesthat you think you're going to
get apples from, or anythingelse that's out there is going
to be pretty much fair game forthem.
What about vet care, justremembered for them.
You know a person might say,well, I take my dog once a year

(26:30):
and that's all.
And you know we mentioned thehoof trimming too.
That's another thing that, yeah, theoretically you can do that
yourself if you have the righttools.
But it's not easy for anyonewho goes and pays the $10 or $15
to go get your dog's nails done.
You're not going to want to dogoat nails.
Like, if you can't do yourdog's nails yourself, there
ain't no way in hell you'regoing to do goat feet by
yourself.
That's my opinion.

(26:51):
It's it was a rassling.
It was a rassling job and itwas a two person job to do it
and we only had two goats at thetime.

Yeah, if you don't.
We have milkers, so we usuallyput our goats on the milk stand
to trim their hooves.
But if you just have a coupleof pet goats, like the castrated
males, then you're not going tohave a milk stand.
And so, yeah, it is atwo-person job because one
person is going to have to holdthem while the other person
trims.
So it's not a horribly hardthing to learn, but it is

(27:20):
something you have to learn.
And you do have to do itbecause you know, just like dog
nails, they're going to get wayovergrown if you don't do it.
Unless, you know, unlessthey're out there climbing on a
mountain, because people arelike, oh, who trims them in
nature?
Mother nature, remember.
They're from the desert, sothey were walking on sand all
the time.
They're walking on rocks, sothey're naturally wearing them

(27:41):
down.
Most of us are putting them ona lush green carpet of grass.

Amy Castro (27:47):
That does not wear them down at all.

Yeah, so we have to do it.
So you asked about the vet, andthis is the thing that usually
really shocks people.
I have an application now thatpeople have to fill out before I
will even consider talking tothem.
Before I will even considertalking to them and about half
the people the answers on hereare so bad that they're just
completely rejected, becauseit's obvious.

(28:10):
They've just seen the TikTokvideos and their goat's going to
sleep in a dog crate in thelaundry room or in their bed,
which is totally unacceptableand they don't know what it eats
.
They have no fencing, which istotally unacceptable, and they
don't know what it eats.
They have no fencing.
You know one woman, in responseto what do you have for shelter
, she said 10 acres and like,okay, you don't even know what

(28:38):
the word shelter means, likeyour goats.
Just give me running out thereon 10 acres with the coyotes.
But the thing that reallysurprises people is that it is
very hard to find a goat vet inmost areas.
So there are a few hundred vetswho are members of the American
Association of Small RuminantPractitioners.
Goats are small ruminants andthey are considered a minor
species.
Most of your vets only see dogsand cats.

(29:02):
That's it.
They know nothing about goats.
And when I was new, I was reallyupset with our dog and cat vet
that she would not see my goats,and she said, trust me, I would
not be doing you any favors byseeing your goats.
You need to see a goat vet.
And I am so glad that she hadthe nerve to stand up to me and

(29:24):
to say that, because I some ofthe worst horror stories I have
heard have been from people whosomehow convinced their vet and
I'm not judging the vets,because I don't know what I
would do if I had a hystericalperson in my office with a goat
and labor or something but someof the worst horror stories I

(29:45):
have heard are people who gottheir dog and cat vet to treat
their goat because they justmade so many mistakes.
And so you really have to makesure that there is a vet in your
area who not just sees goatsbut sees enough of them to know
what the current research is.
There's a lot of stuff that youknow your vet needs to know to

(30:07):
be able to take care of yourgoats for you, so you definitely
want to.

Amy Castro (30:11):
I would say definitely, look into that
before you start looking forgoats to see is there a vet that
services your area and what isthe cost?
Like you know, we have a greatequine vet and you know, because
I don't even have a horsetrailer, you know, for our, for
our rescue horses, and so I meanI could get one if I had to.
But you know she comes to the,to the rescue ranch, but you

(30:31):
know there's a there's a housecall fee that goes along with
that and that can add up quicklyand depending upon if they are
the only game in town.
You know we had a situationwith a goat that got very badly
injured and you know she wasn'teven in like in town trying to
find somebody.
And then there was actuallyanother situation with a sick

(30:51):
goat.
My daughter and I dragged thegoat out, put her in the back of
my car and I'm calling otherplaces Like can you at least see
this goat?
At the last minute, because myvet was two hours away and this,
this animal was in dire need ofmedical attention and it did
not go well.
She actually died.
So you got to think all thatthrough and see how accessible
that's going to be and what'syour backup plan if there's an

(31:13):
emergency.

Yeah, exactly.
And please, please, please, Ibeg you, do not believe anyone
who tells you that you don'tneed a vet.
You can raise your goats on aFacebook group because you don't
know what you don't know andyou know you think, oh, there's
40,000 people in this group.
There must be, you know, theycan totally tell me everything I

(31:36):
need.
Well, no, they can't.
You know, I stay away fromthose groups because I could
spend all day long correctingmisinformation and if you ask a
question and you get 50 peoplegiving you all kinds of
different answers, you don'tknow who's right and who's wrong
and in the meantime your goatcould die.
Yeah.

Amy Castro (31:56):
And just because somebody had luck with something
, it's kind of like the oldschool, like our grandparents
told us or, for some of you whoare younger, maybe your
great-grandparents when thewhole seatbelt laws came into
play, and or you're insistingyour kids in a car seat.
Well, you kids were never in acar seat and you didn't die.
It's like you know, I don'tknow that that's good, good
evidence to back up.

(32:16):
Like just because somebodytried some home remedy on their
goat or fed their goat this orthat and it didn't die, doesn't
mean that that's the right thingand it's going to work well for
your goat.
That's the problem withanecdotal advice like that.
A couple last things that Iwant to hit on as far as what
you would need to know.
You meant we talked about thefencing.
What about, like shelter inspace?

(32:36):
Like does a goat need X numberof acres per goat?
And then what about shelter?
Do they need a barn?
Do they need heat?
Do they need bedding?

They definitely need a barn.
This is one of the things Ijust love about goats.
I didn't love it in thebeginning.
Nobody does.
If they get wet, they thinkthey're going to melt.
So we thought like, oh, webought this horse farm and it's
got this big, gorgeous horsebarn.
We thought that would be fine.
You know, like horses, you letthem out in the morning, you

(33:06):
bring them into the barn atnight.
And the reality was that everytime you had like three little
tiny sprinkles of water, thegoats were all out there
screaming bloody murder, becausethey thought they were gonna
melt and they're, like you know,climbing at the gate like, let
us in, let us're going to melt.
And so we learned very quicklythat like, oh, okay, well, we
need to have three-sided run-inpasture shelters so if it rains,

(33:31):
the goats can just run in thereand we don't have to go put
them in the barn just to takethem out 15 minutes later, you
know when it stops raining.
And so you definitely needshelter for your goats because
also, they can wind up gettingchilled and get hypothermia and
get sick if it's cold and itrains on them.

(33:51):
Having a barn that you can closeup might be really important in
terms of predators, dependingon where you live, you know.
So it doesn't have to be.
You know, if you've only gottwo or three goats, you can have
a small three-sided shelter,depending on what your fencing
situation is like and yourpredator situation.
You might be able to need toclose that up at night.
You know, if you've got pastureshelters, that's fine.

(34:13):
They might work most of thetime, but there might still be
times that you need to put themin a barn that can be closed for
whatever reason.

Amy Castro (34:22):
What about breeds of goats?
I mean breed does matter right.

If you're going to decide to move forward.

Amy Castro (34:28):
I mean, obviously, if you're going to do it for
dairy purposes, then obviouslyyou're going to investigate
dairy breeds.
But what about just a personthat wants maybe two or three
goats as pets, because they'vegot the space, they're willing
to do the shelter, they'rewilling to do the upkeep?
Which ones make good, just petsto have?

Those would be usually the smaller breeds, like
the Nigerian dwarfs or pygmies.
A lot of people use thoseinterchangeably.
So many people contact me andsay, hey, do you have pygmies?
And I'm like, if you're askingif I have small goats, yes,
they're small, but pygmy is aspecific breed and I have
Nigerian dwarfs.
Pygmies, historically, were ameat goat.

(35:06):
Nobody in the US is going tobreed a little goat for meat,
regardless of what its meat tobone ratio is.
You know they want the bigboars and kikos and stuff like
that.
Nigerian dwarfs are a dairygoat and once you know about the
difference between dairy goatsand meat goats, then you're like
, oh, there's the big differencebetween their body type.

(35:27):
And the other thing that mostpeople don't know is that the
Nigerian dwarfs are the oneswith all the flashy colors.
Pygmies actually have verystrict color standards and they
are not allowed to have blueeyes.
So a lot of people are like, oh, I want spots and blue eyes and
all this.
Well, then you want a Nigeriandwarf and getting castrated

(35:47):
males as pets works really great, because then it's not going to
come into heat every threeweeks like a doe, they're not
going to pee on themselves likea buck.
And if you just want pets, thenthat's all you need.
Plus, they're not going to behormonal, you know.
So weathers really do make thebest pets.

Amy Castro (36:06):
And what's your best advice as far as finding a good
pet goat?
What's your best advice as faras finding a good pet goat?
Is there a National GoatBreeders Association that you
would go to, or is it okay toget a goat from a rescue,
because we have had them comethrough ours?

You want to make sure that you're getting
your goats from somebody who'sreputable either a reputable
breeder or a reputable rescue.
Do not go to Craigslist orFacebook or whatever and just
buy from the first person thatsays I've got goats for sale.
I don't know if you've talkedabout this before, but there are
scammers out there, so thereare people who wind up sending

(36:43):
several hundred dollars tosomebody that doesn't even have
goats because they've createdfake websites and Facebook pages
and stuff like this.
But let's assume that you'vemoved past that and you actually
get goats from somebody.
So like big red flags would besomebody selling you intact
males.
There are some people who justwant to get their male kids.

(37:04):
Usually they're raising fordairy.
They just want to get theirmale kids gone as soon as
possible because they want 100%of the milk for the dairy, and
so I don't know if people stilluse this.
People would call them drippingwet, buckling sales.
You know where.
It's like $25 or $50.
You come and you get this babybuck that maybe it's had

(37:25):
colostrum from its mom, maybenot, but let's say they did get
colostrum, and now you take themhome.
Well, now you're going to beresponsible for castrating them.
It is not going to be cheap.
You know.
A vet is going to charge you,like they would charge you for
spaying or neutering a dog orcat.
Usually it's going to beexpensive and if you don't want

(37:47):
it to have horns which isanother discussion, it can be
very dangerous around smallchildren Then you would have to
pay a vet to do that.
So that's going to be moremoney.
Again, a reputable breederwould do that for you.
The other thing is just talk tothem and ask them questions.
If they don't want to answeryour questions, walk away.

(38:09):
If somebody is going to sellyou bottle babies, make sure
they take a bottle.
Some of these people are justlazy and they leave the kid on
mom until the day it gets pickedup and then they take it away
from mom and hand it to theperson.
And most people have heard ofnipple confusion in human babies

(38:29):
.
Well, it's the same thing, butit's the opposite with the baby
goats.
They've been nursing on momtheir whole life and they have
no clue what to do with a bottleand they act like you're trying
to poison them.
They scream and they fight.
Some people will say, oh,they're three weeks old, they're
eating, they don't need abottle anymore.

(38:51):
And then they call me when thekid is half dead.
They need milk for at least twomonths and with the Nigerians
they need to be at least 20pounds.
So it's just really sad.
So you really have to educateyourself before you get the goat
.
And I tell people, if somebodytells you it's bottle fed, tell

(39:20):
them oh, can we give it a bottlewhen I come to pick them up.
And if that kid does not grabthe nipple all by itself and
start sucking.
It's not a bottle baby.
It's hard for me, as somebodywho's been doing it for 23 years
, when somebody has never, likethey just became a goat owner
today and they're contacting melike I've had these kids since
yesterday and they still they'vetaken like maybe two or three

(39:41):
ounces of milk.

Amy Castro (39:44):
Like it's really sad , yeah yeah, and it's very
frustrating.
I mean we run into that withthe bottle baby kittens that we
get in.
You know, it's like there's alittle bit of a technique to it.
But yeah, they, you knowthey're some some take to it
pretty quickly and others fightit and you end up having to tube
feed them and doing all theseother things just to just to
keep them alive.

(40:04):
And when you're inexperiencedin knowing how to handle them,
knowing the angle, knowing howto you know the little tricks
that you learn because you'vebeen doing it for 10 years of
transitioning them, then it'ssuper frustrating and you feel
like a big old failure.
It's not a position you want tobe in, for sure.
So yeah.
Deborah.
So my last big question for youis why?

(40:28):
Why do you do it?
Why did you do it?
Why have you been doing it for20 years?
And then I want you to tell usabout the podcast and other
resources that you might referus to if we decide we actually
do love goats and want to godown this path.

Yeah.
So a lot of people ask me likewhen they see all of my stuff
and they're like this soundsreally complicated, why do you
have goats?
And the reality is because theyare just the coolest animals
ever.
They really are.
You know, they do tend to bemore emotional than most animals
.
They've got quite thepersonality.
Like every one of them is anindividual and I was.

(41:04):
I originally was in love withthe goat cheese and that was
what got my husband involved.
You know, originally it was meand the girls doing it and then,
once they went off to college,I told my husband I'm like hey,
if you still want goat cheese,you're going to have to learn
how to do this.
And so it was a really fast yesfor him because he didn't want
to lose the goat cheese.
So that's a really big part ofit there.

(41:25):
So they're just terrificanimals.
Like most people are reallysurprised at how they just
totally fall in love with themand like that was the thing.
You know, we never had a bucklive past the age of three.
For the first five years we hadgoats, oh wow.
And our does were two thirds ofour does were not getting

(41:46):
pregnant.
They weren't staying pregnant,they were miscarrying at all
stages, and giving up just wasnot even an option for me,
because I had just fallen inlove with them so much.
I was just like no, I got tofigure out what's wrong, so we
can take care of this.
And yeah, by the time I figuredout what I needed to do to keep
my goats alive, I had enoughinformation to write a 300 page

(42:06):
book, which was how I suddenlybecame a goat expert in a lot of
people's lives.

Amy Castro (42:13):
Yeah, because you teach classes on goat stuff at
university, right?

Yeah, I teach for the University of
Massachusetts, amherst online,and so I have had students all
over the world who've taken thatcourse.
And then I also have the GoatAcademy where I have online
courses and our is GOATS 365,which includes access to the
courses.
And then we have meetings onZoom three times a month where

(42:38):
we all get together and peopleask questions and they talk
about like what's happening withtheir GOATS today.

Amy Castro (42:44):
So those classes in the groups, are they for
beginners, like I guess I'mtrying to decide, like, if I
decided, okay, I do want topursue this GOAT thing.
I don't currently have any.
Would you advise that I takeone of the courses first Seems
to make sense to me, and then itsounds like there's a group and
follow on that I can stay in.
Is that how that works?
Yeah?

definitely.
I mean, really the best thingis to join GOATS 365, because
then you can start taking thecourses Like you could start
with like goat basics to learnall about the housing and the
fencing, and then, as you'regoing through that course, you
can also come to the meetingsand say, okay, well, this is you
know, and show us pictures Likethis is what my barn looks like

(43:24):
.
What do you think of this?
What do you?
You know?
Here's my pasture, this is thefencing.
No book and no course can tellyou a hundred percent of
everything you need to know tomake it work on your farm with
your goats and your land.
And so that's the beauty of themembership is that people can
come in there and they can sharepictures.
They can share video even andwe've had people do that.

(43:45):
You know, they're out in theirbarn.
We actually have one member whojoins every single meeting from
his barn and a lot of peoplewind up saving hundreds or even
thousands of dollars.
You know, because, like they,just some people just assume
like, oh, we need to haveconcrete floor in our barn.
No, you don't, dirt floor isfine, yeah.

Amy Castro (44:05):
So, and then we'll put some links in the show notes
for people to get to the 365.
How is the podcast different?
I mean, I know a podcast is apodcast and a class is a class,
but because that's a lot tomanage.

This is like beyond a full-time job.
I have this stuff on my.
Yeah, I worked 60 hours lastweek.
I have software on my computerthat tracks everything I do.
It is more than a full-time jobwhat I do and the podcast.
I love doing the podcast somuch.
What it has been so we'recelebrating our fifth
anniversary this month.
I'm so excited.

(44:37):
What it has been up to thispoint is me interviewing a lot
of vet professors andresearchers about emerging
research in the field of goats.
When I got started 23 years ago,people literally thought goats
and sheep were almost the same.
They thought their nutritionalneeds were the same.
They thought that you treatedthem for parasites the same.

(44:58):
I mean, it's just unreal.
This is why my goats were dyingand not getting pregnant.
We had so many problems 20 yearsago because we didn't know and
that's why I found the answersat that time by digging into the
scientific journals.
I was reading stuff likeveterinary parasitology and

(45:21):
things like that and finding thestuff that was brand new back
then and, crazy enough, stuffthat was discovered 15, 10 years
ago.
They still don't know it today.
If a vet sees mostly dogs andcats and maybe a few horses,
they're not going to do theircontinuing education on goats.
So, even though, like westarted out being totally for

(45:41):
goat owners, I've heard more andmore that we're getting a lot
of vets listening and vetstudents because of the quality
of our guests.
Like we're getting down to thereally nitty gritty here.
I probably have 10 episodes onworms and goats.
Don't get me started on thatsubject.
Yeah, we didn't even get startedon that.

(46:02):
Like worms, I mean, I tellpeople I have a.
My parasite course is likeseven or eight hours, I believe
it, because it's like reallydetailed.
There's just so much thatpeople need to know and it's so
much more complicated.
So many of us and I know I wasthe same way Okay, we go to zoos
and we see these animals in asmall pen and we think that

(46:25):
that's what we're going to dowith our animals, right, we're
going to put our goats in asmall pen and it's all going to
be good.
And the reality is, if you dothat, you're forcing your goats
to eat from their toilet and soyou are going to have worm
problems.
And they actually do have a lotof worm problems in zoos
because they keep them in thesesmall pens.
So controlling worms is notabout drugs.

(46:46):
It's all about management andpasture rotation or learning how
to do a dry lot.
So that's another thing, too,that you need to learn about.
Ideally, if you can learn thisstuff before you get goats, you
will save yourself so much money, so much heartache.
I love working with people whoare new and goat shopping and

(47:07):
planning everything out.
That is the ideal.
Goat shopping and planningeverything out.
That is the ideal.
And when I work with peoplelike that, they don't have
problems, you know, because theyavoid problems.
They, you know.
They get the right housing, theright fencing.
They don't do the things wrongwhen it comes to worms.
So all these problems are notinevitable.
It doesn't have to be hard.

(47:29):
It's like anything else.
You just have to have the rightinformation Right.

Amy Castro (47:33):
All of these things are things, and I think you made
the key point there that I wantto leave people with is they're
fantastic animals, they'refunny, they're charming, but
they can be a lot of work and togive them their best lives
requires a lot of forethought tobe able to pull it off
successfully.
And so by taking courses, bydoing your research whether it's

(47:54):
listening to the podcast orjoining the groups and really
learning what you're gettingyourself into before, because
that was my mistake is that Ithought, oh, because somebody
had goats here before that Icould just get my own goats and
kind of do what that person didand, without necessarily knowing
, did his goats die off on aregular basis?
And the goats that I was seeingthere were his fifth set of

(48:16):
goats that he had, for all Iknow.
And so I just I went into itdumb and I made a lot of
mistakes, and it was to thedetriment of the poor goats.
We lost one to barber poleworms.
We lost one to a cougar.
Now that who knew there was acougar?
I didn't, you know.
I mean, I knew we had coyotesand we had coverage for that,
but when you've got a cougarthat jumps over your fence and

(48:37):
literally takes an 80 poundyoung goat over into your
neighbor's yard, you know.
So then we had to build likethis dog cage thing to to almost
like a little prison to putthem in at night to protect them
.
From that, I quickly realizedthat the goats were not for me.
I wasn't prepared going into it, and then I realized pretty
quickly that I wasn't going tobe able to create an environment
where that was going to workwith everything else I was doing

(48:59):
in the rescue.
So we rehomed the remaininggoats to people who could manage
that, but it's not somethingthat I would wish on anybody
else.
So hopefully you learned fromour lessons here today and,
debra, I really appreciate youbeing here.
I know that you come to thisgame with a lot of experience
and a lot of knowledge and Ihope people who are still

(49:19):
thinking in the back of theirheads like I still want to do it
that they check out those links.
We're going to put the shownotes, take your courses, listen
to the podcast and do that wellbefore they go goat shopping,
if that is such a thing.
But thank you so much forgiving us your time and your
expertise today.
Yeah, thank you, it was a lotof fun.

(49:40):
All right, everybody.
Thank you once again forlistening to another episode of
Muddy Paws and Hairballs.
We will see you next week.
Thanks for listening to MuddyPaws and Hairballs.
Be sure to visit our website atmuddypawsandhairballscom for
more resources and be sure tofollow this podcast on your
favorite podcast app so you'llnever miss a show.
And hey, if you like this show,text someone right now and say

(50:03):
I've got a podcastrecommendation.
You need to check the show outand tell them to listen and let
you know what they think.
Don't forget to tune in nextweek and every week for a brand
new episode.
And if you don't do anythingelse this week, give your pets a
big hug from us.

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