September 8, 2025 • 32 mins
Have you thought about hiring help internationally in the past, but didn’t know how to do it? Or maybe you tried working through an international virtual staffing company and found it did not work out as you had hoped? Our guest today is Jon Matzner, and he shares how he helps business leaders hire top talent globally.
TODAY'S WIN-WIN:
The Bruce Matzner Ratio: dollars earn, to days in flip flops.
LINKS FROM THE EPISODE:
- Schedule your free franchise consultation with Big Sky Franchise Team: https://bigskyfranchiseteam.com/.
- You can visit our guest's website at:
- Attend our Franchise Sales Training Workshop:
- https://bigskyfranchiseteam.com/franchisesalestraining/
- Connect with our guest on social:
- @matznerjon
ABOUT OUR GUEST:
Former American Diplomat, entrepreneur, and cofounder of Sagan - that has helped hundreds of business directly hire thousands of people from around the world, since its founding 15 months ago.
ABOUT BIG SKY FRANCHISE TEAM:
This episode is powered by Big Sky Franchise Team. If you are ready to talk about franchising your business you can schedule your free, no-obligation, franchise consultation online at: https://bigskyfranchiseteam.com/.
The information provided in this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and should not be considered financial, legal, or professional advice. Always consult with a qualified professional before making any business decisions. The views and opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the host, Big Sky Franchise Team, or our affiliates. Additionally, this podcast may feature sponsors or advertisers, but any mention of products or services does not constitute an endorsement. Please do your own research before making any purchasing or business decisions.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tom DuFore (00:01):
Welcome to the Multiply your Success podcast,
where each week, we helpgrowth-minded entrepreneurs and
franchise leaders take the nextstep in their expansion journey.
I'm your host, tom Dufour, ceoof Big Sky Franchise Team, and
as we open today, I'm wonderingif you have thought about hiring
help internationally, but maybeyou didn't know where to start.
(00:21):
Or maybe you've tried workingthrough an international
staffing company or agency andfound it didn't work out as you
had hoped.
Well, our guest today is JonMatzner, and he shares how he
helps business leaders hire toptalent globally.
Now, jon is a former Americandiplomat.
He's an entrepreneur andco-founder of Sagan Diplomat.
(00:45):
He's an entrepreneur andco-founder of Sagan.
That's the company that hashelped hundreds of businesses
directly hire thousands ofpeople from around the world
since its founding just 15months ago.
You're going to love thisinterview, so let's go ahead and
jump right into it.
Jon Matzner (00:57):
My name is John Matzner, the company is called
Sagan and my title is co-founder.
Tom DuFore (01:03):
A great place for us to start here is really getting
into the heart and core of yourbusiness and what you guys are
doing.
I really like this question.
We talked pre-show and justtalking about what's wrong with
normal outsourcing and virtualassistant model and this whole
idea of attracting outsourcedtalent.
Jon Matzner (01:22):
So for the last 30 or 40 years people have been
hiring globally.
You know, AT&T in 1988 movedtheir customer service to the
Philippines or to India orwhatever, and the reason why
only big companies did it wasbecause it was expensive.
If you remember, you had to getlike a T1 line or a T3 line and
you had to FedEx, you know harddrives if you had to send
(01:46):
something big, and so for a longtime the model was a big office
tower in Mumbai or Manila whereyou had people doing revenue
cycle management or whatever ithappened to be.
And because of theproliferation of things like
Zoom or Slack or Microsoft Teamsor even Gmail, you no longer
(02:08):
have to operate within thatmodel, and what that means is
that companies can directly hireindividuals from around the
world rather than having to gothrough one of these what I
think of as relatively archaicbusiness models.
Now, that doesn't really matter,except for one big thing, which
is the quality of people thatyou get, and the cost at which
(02:32):
you can hire those people whenyou're doing it directly is a
fraction of what it is if you'redoing it via this kind of
outsourcing or staffing model.
That is very popular and soyoung, ambitious people do not
want to go into a call centerwith a headphone on and make 187
(02:53):
calls a day and their mousemovements are tracked.
They want to have a career,they want to have a relationship
with their employer, they wantyou to come visit them.
You want to.
They're just normal people whohappen to live in other
countries and historically thiswas not possible.
The technology was not there.
But in the last several years,particularly after COVID, you
can just work with Beth fromSouth Africa and over time you
(03:15):
forget whether she's in FortLauderdale or South Africa, and
that is an incredibly powerfulthing for small business owners,
for franchisors, forfranchisees.
Tom DuFore (03:24):
You started mentioning a little bit about
this outsourced staffing agencyor these virtual staffing type
models.
Someone might tune in and maybethey've tried it or worked with
it.
But for someone who hasn't talka little bit about that model
in, particular, we call that thestaffing markup model.
Jon Matzner (03:40):
And what that model is is.
I say, tom, I can get youpeople in the Philippines for $9
an hour and Tom goes $9 an hour, my goodness, that is a great
rate.
What Tom doesn't know is thatthe person that has billed out
to him is making $3 of that $9.
And that person's businessmodel is to make it seem really
complicated and really hard.
(04:01):
And, oh, tom, you know you haveto worry about all this stuff,
Just pay me $9.
But what happens is as soon asTom has that person that's now
embedded in your company, thatperson who is working for Tom 40
hours a week, and that companythat facilitated that is doing
very, very little, they try tomake it seem like they do a lot.
Trust me, they don't do a lot.
They are making six of the $9that Tom is paying every hour.
(04:23):
They are making six of the $9that Tom is paying every hour,
and so we call that the staffingmarkup model.
The reason why that matters isthere's nothing wrong with
capitalism.
And look, if Tom's okay with $9, god bless America.
I'm a capitalist, right.
The issue is that the qualityof the talent who will work for
$3 or $4 is very different andis usually relegated to kind of
(04:44):
like admin-y type roles.
You know kind of weak English,maybe they're just like banging
the phones or whatever.
And what we think about and talkabout is we just hired a
controller from Buenos Aires,argentina, who's working
directly with a lower middlemarket private equity shop who
previously worked at JP Morganin Buenos Aires, and this person
(05:06):
underwrites their inorganicgrowth pipeline.
Do you think that person isgoing to be okay with being
billed out and making 30 centson the dollar?
Or do you think they want tohave a career with Tom and say,
tom, I'm a member of the Big Skyteam and I'm going to fly up
and come see you and you'regoing to come down to Buenos
Aires?
They want to have a career,just like Americans do, and so
that's why it matters forlisteners.
Is that absolutely a virtualassistant or all this little
(05:29):
kind of low-level stuff?
We call it like a starter drug.
It's a great way to get started.
It's simple, but as soon as youhear somebody like me talking,
you're like, yeah, I want tokeep going.
Tom DuFore (05:40):
This is awesome, and that model really restricts
what keep going looks like Iresonate with what you just
described there, because I'vetried, and someone who listens
to this may have been in asimilar situation.
You try working with one ofthese groups.
They pitch this idea get thisworkforce at a lower price and
say, huh, that's interesting, itsounds great.
However, I experienced exactlywhat you said either low quality
(06:03):
, it ended up being highturnover and it just wasn't
worth the headaches.
That was going on and it was, Iwill say, very short-lived
attempt and I said, well, I'mnot doing that anymore and I
will source or find candidatesdomestically, or I just won't do
it, I'll figure something elseout.
Jon Matzner (06:21):
You know I'm sure you've talked about this on the
pod before when we think aboutwho our ICP is or our avatar,
right, who is our customer?
Almost 100% of them have triedto hire globally before and
failed, or have hired from maybeonly the Philippines and they
have a couple of virtualassistants or something like
that.
But there are people who havegot dipped a toe in and we kind
of open up our overcoat and showthem there's so much more to
(06:45):
this than Philippines or India.
There's Ireland, there's SouthAfrica, there's Argentina,
there's Canada.
For God's sakes, right, there's8 billion people outside the US,
just because some poopy personin your DMs, you know, tried to
bait and switch you on thequality of the video they showed
you and who actually worked,you know, try to bait and switch
you on the quality of the videothey showed you and who energy
(07:06):
they were Like.
That is like saying I went toone bad country and now I don't
travel anymore.
That's there's.
There's millions of places inthe world.
Please don't give up on travel.
And it's the same thing withkind of building a global
workforce, I'd say.
Tom DuFore (07:18):
Very, very well said .
Well, I didn't realize.
I fit your avatar perfectly,but how do you solve that
problem?
So you mentioned that CFO orhigh end financial analyst that
you're able to set someone upwith.
How does this whole thing work?
How do you help create thattrust with someone that really
that trust has been broken inthese international markets?
Jon Matzner (07:38):
What we've seen, generally speaking, is the
candidate speaks for themselves.
Generally speaking, I can talklike crazy and I can, and you go
.
Okay, whatever that guy's youknow just chirping.
But when I put, when Tom putsin a request and says I'm
looking for somebody who canhelp me do takeoffs at my home
(07:59):
improvement business, who I cansend iPhone pictures to, and
they come back to me with draftplans to show my customer, and
then I send you somebody whosays Hi, my name is Maria
Gonzalez, I'm from GuatemalaCity, I have 11 years of
architecture experience.
I went, I have a master's degreein architecture.
My dream salary is $1,700 amonth, full time and I'd love to
help you grow your homeimprovement company.
(08:21):
Tom goes, okay.
I believe, like the me talkingis not going to do anything.
Actually, looking at people isgoing to be how that you break
through to the next level.
And it kind of informs my storya little bit, which was, you
know, went to school on the Eastcoast and then I went into the
government.
So I worked kind of in thegreater national security world
(08:41):
and lived in the Middle East andNorth Africa for the first part
of my career and when I cameback to the States and started
building and buying businesses.
One of the core insights I tookfrom spending the better part
of a decade abroad was there arebrilliant people who happen to
live in other countries andtalent is equally distributed,
but opportunity isn't.
And so there is somebody who isbrilliant in Oman right now,
(09:04):
who is so smart and they're soarticulate and all they want to
do is help you grow Big Sky, andbecause of the power of the
internet, that person is a fewclicks away, and that, to me,
was kind of the seed of whateventually became Sagan was
there are brilliant people, theyjust live in these other
countries, and so facilitatingthat relationship is something I
(09:24):
dedicated my life to in thegovernment and then now as a
private sector entrepreneur.
Tom DuFore (09:30):
So connecting with these brilliant people, then
that becomes a challenge andseems like you're the conduit to
that.
How do you kind of find thesepeople and connect them with
your customers?
How does all of that work?
Jon Matzner (09:42):
Yeah, so we've got a team of maybe 75 or 80 spread,
I think.
Sagan's internal team is in 19or 20 different countries, I
think, and the joke that we useis we drink our own champagne,
meaning most of our executiveteam is global as well.
I mean, we're spread right, butwhat I would say is there are
two things I would say and thisis not secret, saucy or anything
(10:02):
, right, because it's a lot ofwork is the first thing I would
say is you got to kiss a lot offrogs to find a prince, and so
the business we're really in iswhen we put up an ad, we get 200
applicants and the businesswe're really in is evaluating,
testing, grading, screening,interviewing, profiling people
to then get those three princesamong the army of frogs, to kind
(10:24):
of put a point on it.
The second thing I would say isand you will appreciate this, I
think, given your background isrecruiting in every country for
every role is like a salesfunnel, meaning the way you
recruit a graphic designer inArgentina is night and day
different than the way youinterview a B2B cold caller in
South Africa.
So in South Africa, it's allabout Facebook groups, and so we
(10:47):
buy Facebook groups and publishjobs there.
In Belize, it's about churches.
In Argentina, it's about thelocal version of Indeed.
In Philippines, it's all aboutlocal version of Indeed In
Philippines.
It's all about LinkedIn orwhatever it happens to be right,
and so every one of these rolesand markets is like a different
sales funnel, and so what wekind of maintain an expertise in
(11:07):
is you come to us and you say Ineed a graphic designer, and we
take that and we go all right.
What's the kind of sourcing,screening, recruiting strategy
that is unique to this role,because it's very different than
a controller, than a graphicdesigner, than a data entry
person who you're just trying tosave money on.
I think we launched Sagan kindof publicly about 14 or 15
months ago, and we don't knowthe exact number, but we think
(11:29):
we've done close to 1,500 hires.
Tom DuFore (11:32):
I like how you said you know 8 billion people
outside of the US market andthere's lots of talent I think
that's very, very well said andyou're able to secure and find
them.
One of the things that I foundreally interesting is our
connection happened through afranchise connection and how we
ended up getting connected toeach other, and I'd love for you
to talk about how this appliesnot only to help that growth
(11:55):
minded entrepreneur or businessleader that's looking for some
kind of additional staff ortalent replacement, but also for
that franchise company and thatfranchisor that might need that
additional support to behelping their franchisees Yep.
Jon Matzner (12:10):
So what I would say is we work with a ton of
franchisors.
So what I would say is we workwith a ton of franchisors.
We also work with some folkswho sit above that at the kind
of like brand owner level, whoown a dozen brands and those
kinds of things, right?
So the first thing I would sayis I've learned and I think, tom
, you'll laugh when I say thiswhich is, if every other
sentence out of my mouth isn'tsell more units or drive
(12:30):
royalties, franchisors tune out.
When I'm talking to multi-unitoperators you know private
equity owned folks who own 25Burger Kings I'm talking about
profitability, I'm talking aboutEBITDA, I'm talking about
reducing OPEX.
But when I'm talking to a Zoror a brand owner, if I don't say
this sells units and thisdrives royalties, they're just
like yeah, it's okay, maybe youcan try with one of our Zs or
(12:53):
something, right?
So that's the first thing Iwould say up front.
So in our experience, that'sjust what we've seen.
What I would say is franchisors,both from a selling units
perspective and drivingroyalties.
Well, I'll start with sellingunits.
You're in the business ofhelping people build better
businesses.
That's the business you're in.
Best practice accumulation of avariety, whether Best practice,
accumulation of a variety,whether that's negotiating your
(13:14):
lease, or how to hire local swimcoaches right, or how to price.
That's really what businessyou're in, and global talent as
an advantage is something thatis extremely appealing.
And again, pardon my ignorance,what's it called Demo day at
franchises?
Tom DuFore (13:29):
Yeah, the discovery day Discovery, that's probably
what you're referring to.
Yeah, thank you.
Jon Matzner (13:33):
Discovery day and when you sit there and
somebody's looking at fourdifferent brands and one of the
brands says you know, look, inyour first year or two you're
going to be on the truck andyou're going to do everything.
And then the second brand saysyou know, you need a huge pile
of capital and you might be ableto stop doing this within a
year or two if okay, if you buythree different areas.
And the third brand, the onethat has really integrated
global talent, says from day one, we have a relationship with a
(13:56):
company called Sagan and whatthat's gonna do is, as a part of
we have people who've put us intheir FDDs and they say you're
gonna have a back officecoordinator from day one, and
what that means is this person'sgonna help you recruit crew,
they're gonna help you do yourschedule, they're gonna help you
deal with customer serviceissues so you can go out and
grow the business, so that, whenyou're starting from zero, you
(14:17):
can go out and do the one thingyou can do, which is be that
growth engine to go line up B2Breferrals or go get a channel
partnership or go freaking dropflyers off All the things that
only that owner operator can doin the beginning and not sitting
there going, oh, their creditcard got canceled.
(14:40):
I got to go change it inQuickBooks and do all the things
you got to do when you're small, and for a very wallet-friendly
price of, say, $1,500 a monthUS, you now can have that Z
focused like a laser on drivingrevenue, which drives royalties,
and also, during that discoveryday, go yeah, man, I hate doing
back office stuff.
This brand is going to supportme in back office from day one
and I'm going to go out and tryto drive revenue instead of oh,
(15:01):
the crew called in sick and Igot the things that you got to
do when you're small.
So that's what I see smartZores doing these days.
Tom DuFore (15:26):
In franchising.
Not everyone is, as youdescribed, a smart Zore.
Let's say, a franchisee listensto this.
Or someone comes along and says, well, my Zor does not kind of
fall into that bucket, but I'minterested.
Or maybe there's a group offranchisees that are interested.
How do you work withfranchisees?
Jon Matzner (15:44):
directly.
Yeah, so often you know we'veseen that going at the Zors is
hard and slow, you know, becausethey get.
You know they walk down thestreet and they get pitched
three times by a vendor.
Right, you know it's hard.
Right Now we do work with a lotof Zores, but most often the
way that we get started withZores is via a large Z.
(16:05):
If you're familiar with theFastSigns brand, the largest Z
in the network his name's Weshim and his partner, his name's
Wes Kaufman, and they do, Idon't know.
I think he shares this publiclyupwards of $50 million in
revenue as FastSigns and we'vedone between 40 and 50 hires for
him.
And he is the one who's kind oflike brought up to the network
not the Zor and because he'slike guys, I was able to grow
(16:30):
faster, support growth, let mylocal staff focus on local
things, let my global stafffocus on local things, let my
global staff focus on globalthings.
And so very often we went overa Z who's trying to reduce their
OPEX or support growth orwhatever it happens to be, and
then all of a sudden peoplestart like looking over me, like
dude, what are you doing?
How'd you solve your graphicdesign problem in Lancaster,
(16:51):
pennsylvania.
He's like oh, we don't graphicdesign in Lancaster, we just
sell and manufacture.
But when it comes to designingthe signage we kick it to some
of these other places and Saganhelps us get those folks.
So the way we work with folksat that level is we have two
different offerings.
One is kind of a contingencysearch model which you pay us a
one-time success fee if we findyou somebody.
(17:11):
Great.
That's a little bit moreexpensive if you don't want to
become a member, which isessentially an annual plan where
you get a certain number ofhires and then we have a lot of
other resources and support,things like continuing education
and a community and bestpractices and all those kinds of
things, discounts on payroll.
So usually people who are justgetting started will do that
(17:31):
kind of one-off hire and then assoon as they're like, oh my
goodness, I think I need to hirea bunch of people over the next
year or so, then they switchover to membership.
You know 95% of our customersare members.
Tom DuFore (17:43):
You mentioned briefly about kind of that
one-off franchisee, maybe thatsingle unit that's getting
started where maybe thefranchisor introduces them to
your services.
How have you found working withmaybe that smaller franchisee
that maybe has one, two or threefranchises that they own and
now they're saying I want thatextra help or I'm ready, I'm six
(18:05):
months in and I need someclerical or office support?
How do you work in that regard?
Jon Matzner (18:11):
Yeah, so.
So that would be really simple.
The way we work is you'd pay adeposit it's 500 bucks and you
just have a dream session andwe'll kind of coach you on this.
But, tom, you know, veryoftentimes I say it's a dream
session because it's an exercisein fantasy.
I want somebody who can coldcall, who also knows soccer, who
can do QuickBooks.
And you're like all right, mybrother like let's, you know,
(18:37):
come back to react.
Okay, like for, for this amountof money.
And you're like all right, I, I, I, okay, right, what's the
priority here?
Oh well, you know, if we getour QuickBooks sorted, that
would make everything better.
Okay, so a little bit moreQuickBooks oriented, right.
Very often with small companies,we call it Superman syndrome,
which is because you're so usedto having to jam 11 job
responsibilities into that frontdesk person to make their
(18:59):
payroll worth it, to make thenumbers work.
And we're like this person isgoing to be, say, $1,500 a month
is our average hire, full time,working your hours, right, you
don't need to kind of likeoverload them to justify it,
right.
And so they hop on with us 500bucks.
We start our search.
We're getting faster and faster, but for most roles a week or
two and we would then presentour three finalists that meet
(19:23):
your requirements.
You do the final interview.
If you like them.
You'd say I think Bob is great.
You pay us a one-time fee forkind of facilitating that
transaction and then Bob worksfor you and you pay him directly
1500 bucks a month forever.
We have a with that.
We have a replacement guaranteeof 90 days if for some reason
it doesn't work out, or aplacement no cost.
(19:43):
If you're a member, we replaceall of our hires forever at no
additional cost.
So pretty low risk associatedwith that.
But the idea is just get whatwe've seen is just get on the
phone with some of these peopleand it is.
You know you will think of yourbusiness life as before global
talent and after global talentbecause you'll be like yo.
I thought this was like a lowquality save money thing.
(20:05):
She has a master's and she'ssmarter than I am and you're
like, yeah, man, so it's like.
It's like AD and BC.
It's like before global talentand after global talent.
So what I would suggest isclick around our website, read
some stuff.
We've got a salary guide whereyou can see, actually for
different roles in differentcountries, kind of how much
people make.
It's at salarysaganpassportcom,it's free, just download that.
(20:26):
But what I'd say is just talkto a few people and if your hair
is not blown back, then don'tdo this.
But if you're just like therecould be something here, you not
blown back, then don't do this.
But if you're just like therecould be something here, you
know, I'd say kind of, take thered pill from the matrix.
Tom DuFore (20:38):
We're engaged in doing some work together and I'm
in the midst of reviewingcandidates myself and I will say
I've been very impressed.
I was out of town and unable todig deep into it, but just
started to, and the candidatesthat have come across are
fantastic and I'm certainsomeone in that mix is going to
be the right fit for us.
Jon Matzner (20:57):
So where I started with this, tom, was, you know,
one of the business I bought wasa home improvement company
based in Southern California andyou know I'm a proud, proud
American.
I, you know, did my governmentservice and had a lot of fun
doing that.
But it was a daily struggle forme to get people I could afford
that were sober and competentin my home improvement company.
(21:19):
It was a daily struggle and,again, I love my country, I love
.
But it was getting somebody toshow up at 8am without many
liquor bottles in the desk andwho could competently execute on
the operations andadministration and answering the
phone and doing crew scheduleswas a boil on my butt.
(21:43):
Let's say Right.
And so I said enough, enough.
And I went on this journey ofsupporting my local business
with a global workforce and Igot people who said, tom, you
know, or John, john, this is adream role.
I just want to thank you forthe opportunity and in four or
five years I'd love if I couldmaybe become, you know, a mid,
(22:06):
you know, an operations managerinstead of just an operations
coordinator.
But I know I got a lot of workto do between now and then and
I'm like I thought people likethis didn't exist, because I'd
been so beat down by somebodywho was just saying yes to the
job and they were playing onYouTube all day and I was just,
I was exhausted by it inSouthern California and I
couldn't afford it.
And so this it was, it was myown pain.
(22:26):
That kind of led me on thisjourney to then kind of rebuild
the way that I built companiesby combining local, a local
workforce, with a global onewhat's the best way for someone
to get in touch with you or thecompany or learn more about what
?
you're doing.
If you're on Twitter, I do.
I write a lot on Twitter atMatzner John, my last name,
M-A-T-Z-N-E-R-J-O-N.
I'm pretty active on Twitter inparticular, but our company if
(22:49):
you just go to getsagancom,G-E-T-S-A-G-A-N, like Carl S,
write a lot.
I have a newsletter and apodcast, both called Lazy
Leverage, so that's anotherplace if you want to learn more
or hear my awesome voice.
Tom DuFore (23:03):
Perfect, and we'll make sure we include all that in
the show notes too, so someonecan click on that and get to
your resources quickly there.
Well, this is a great time inthe show, John, we ask every
guest the same four questionsbefore they go.
And the first question we askis have you had a miss or two on
your journey?
Jon Matzner (23:17):
and something you learned from it Miss or two on
my journey would be I've hadmultiple.
I've had, you know, threemisses.
This morning I left college.
It was probably the mostimpactful miss of my life.
I left college.
I thought I was about to get ajob and start my career in the
government and I moved toWashington DC, signed a lease
and the day I showed up I foundout I got rejected after, just
(23:38):
at the very end of this processthat I thought I was a lock for
and I was sat down by a mentorand essentially there's this old
Abraham Lincoln quote thatbecame thematically important
for me, which was I will prepareand one day my day will come,
and rather than basically havinga pity party it was I'm going
(23:59):
to use this time to sharpen mysword.
And I think there's probablypeople here listening who are
maybe in a W-2 that they're notthrilled with, or maybe they're
in a franchise network thatthey're stuck in and they just
can't get it through.
And rather than kind of takethat as a disempowering idea, I
think the idea of saying, well,what can I do right now to get
(24:19):
ready when my day does come?
Okay, I need to learn Spanishbecause I want to be in the home
improvement space.
Okay, I want to go take abookkeeping and accounting
course at night so that I canknow my numbers cold when I do
finally get into a system and agrowing business model, right,
and so I just I that was veryimpactful on me to basically
have an internal locust ofcontrol, rather than kind of
(24:41):
feel sorry for myself because Igot a freaking rejection or
whatever.
Tom DuFore (24:45):
Thank you for sharing that.
And let's talk about a make awin or a highlight.
Jon Matzner (24:49):
Make a win or a highlight would be we created a
business model from scratch andit's exploded, exploded.
And so, historically, this ideawe call it Costco for global
talent, which is this membershipthing was invented by me in a
jacuzzi when I was talking to mydad, because I was like I don't
want to sit between people andtheir talent and mark up the
labor forever, but I want tohave a way to provide enduring
(25:12):
value and make it all work.
And it was just a completeexercise in pure business thing,
and the market has responded toit.
You know, we have customersthat are $8 billion, private
equity funds and pre-revenuefranchisees and everything in
between, and it was completelyinvented by me.
Tom DuFore (25:30):
Well, the name of the show is Multiply your
Success, and we always ask everyguest have you used a
multiplier to grow yourself,personally or professionally, or
any organizations you've been apart of?
Jon Matzner (25:41):
One of the single biggest multipliers that I can't
emphasize enough is the bookGetting Things Done by David
Allen, and I read it maybe 15years ago and I was the kid in
high school who used to writehis homework on his hand.
And I read that book and I said, if I'm going to live up to my
potential, I cannot bedisorganized, I cannot have 87
(26:01):
unread emails, I cannot forgetmeetings, I cannot not know how
to take notes, and that book 15or 20 years ago set me on a path
of being very well organized assomebody who is not naturally
like that, and I would say ithas been a core contributor to
my professional trajectory.
And so it sounds boring, but itis so stick and important to be
(26:26):
that guy who doesn't missanything, who doesn't forget
things, who knows what to workon at any given time, and so I
can't recommend David Allengetting things done that kind of
philosophy enough.
Tom DuFore (26:36):
The final question we ask every guest, John, is
what does success mean to you?
Jon Matzner (26:40):
Success to me looks like my dad's name is Bruce, so
I'm John Matzner.
My dad's Bruce was a careerentrepreneur, went to Harvard
Business School and became anentrepreneur before.
It was cool is what he says inthe early 80s.
Right now, 90% of the peoplewho go to HBS are entrepreneurs,
but back then that wasn't thecase, and he always said you
know, my goal is to and I callit the Bruce Matzner ratio,
(27:02):
which is dollars earned to daysin flip-flops.
And so success looks like to mebeing able to have, be
professionally ambitious, to be,you know, the leader of an
organization I believe in or acontributor to an organization I
believe in, but also balancingit with a great life and not
deferring life in the name ofwhatever that professional
(27:23):
trajectory is.
And so to me, it's this healthyinterplay between professional
ambition and being a good dad,being a good husband,
contributing to my community andnot and doing everything I can
to kind of balance those.
That's what success looks liketo me, my dad.
Tom DuFore (27:38):
John, as we bring this to a close, is there
anything you're hoping to shareor get across that you haven't
had a chance to yet?
Jon Matzner (27:44):
I would say what I'm hoping people take away is
and it's why my podcast andnewsletter is called Lazy
Leverage, which is the businessthat you currently own is a
choice.
It's a choice, and there arepeople like you who, through
learning from engaging withpeople like Tom, through reading
(28:05):
and education, have found a wayto break free of what you think
is a set of fixed constraints.
And you are making a choiceevery day, kind of like what you
tolerate is what becomes yourreality.
And if you say you know what, Iknow that I'm on the truck
right now.
There is a guy out there or agirl, or a book, or a method or
(28:29):
a vendor or whatever that canwork with you step by step to
get off the truck, so to speak,or to get that second unit, or
to improve your gross margins.
And so what I'd say is, even ifyou've tried a few times and
failed, listen to my podcast,read books, talk to Tom, go in
forums, whatever I'd say, don'tgive up, because you answering
(28:51):
customer service emails at 4pmon a Saturday does not have to
be.
Maybe it's a short season oflife, but there is a clear path
to exit that, and so I just wantto give people hope that there
are people out there, through avariety of ways, who have broken
out of that and you know whoaren't scammers trying to sell
you some baloney course orsomething.
There are proper professionalswho can kind of take you by the
(29:14):
hand and say, come on, let's getyou out of the day to day.
Tom DuFore (29:18):
John, thank you so much for a fantastic interview
and let's go ahead and jump intotoday's three key takeaways.
So takeaway number one that Ireally found interesting is when
John said that companies havebeen outsourcing internationally
since the 1980s.
I thought that seems like along time.
I had no idea had been going onthat long and that companies
(29:39):
can now hire directlyindividuals from all around the
world and that it's easier thanit's ever been and especially
for that small and mid-sizedbusiness community that
(30:02):
organizations will use when youhire temporary or potentially
permanent staff from around theworld when you're working with
these various agencies and Iknow that I tried working
through some of these types ofgroups very short lived and for
me personally it just did not goas well or as I thought it was
going to.
Takeaway number three is whenJohn talked about Sagan and that
they've done over 1,500 hiresin 15 months or so.
(30:26):
That seems like a lot of peoplein a short amount of time and
that he's really designed tohelp support franchisors,
multi-unit franchisees and evensingle unit franchisees, and I
find it interesting that he'sreally focused on this franchise
community and unit franchisees.
And I find it interesting thathe's really focused on this
franchise community and ourfranchise world.
And now it's time for Today'sWin-Win.
(30:47):
So Today's Win-Win comes fromthe end of the episode, when he
talked about the Bruce Matznerratio, and I love that.
It's something his daddeveloped and John has named it
the Bruce Matzner ratio, whichis dollars earned to days in
(31:08):
flip-flops, dollars earned todays in flip-flops, and I
thought that that was a perfectway to summarize the interview,
because really, what John istrying to do, not only for
himself but for his customersand the clients he serves, is to
help them improve that ratio ofdollars earned to days in
flip-flops.
So I really thought that was agreat way to close, because John
(31:31):
is helping his customers find away to spend maybe a few more
days in flip-flops by hiringsome great talent and great
people to help support thebusinesses they work with.
And this Bruce Matzner ratio,as he said, is dollars earned
days in flip-flops to help youbalance and remember it's not
(31:52):
just about income, it's alsoabout time spent with your
family and in your community,but also not to forget about
you've got to generate someincome as well.
So it's kind of this motion ofall of this working together.
I just love that.
I thought that was a greatwin-win to summarize the episode
today, and so that's theepisode today.
(32:13):
Folks, please make sure yousubscribe to the podcast and
give us a review, and rememberif you or anyone you know might
be ready to franchise theirbusiness or take their franchise
company to the next level.
Please connect with us atBigSkyFranchiseTeamcom where you
can schedule your free, noobligation consultation.
Thanks for tuning in and welook forward to having you back
next week.
Welcome to the Multiply your Success podcast,
where each week, we helpgrowth-minded entrepreneurs and
franchise leaders take the nextstep in their expansion journey.
I'm your host, tom Dufour, ceoof Big Sky Franchise Team, and
as we open today, I'm wonderingif you have thought about hiring
help internationally, but maybeyou didn't know where to start.
(00:21):
Or maybe you've tried workingthrough an international
staffing company or agency andfound it didn't work out as you
had hoped.
Well, our guest today is JonMatzner, and he shares how he
helps business leaders hire toptalent globally.
Now, jon is a former Americandiplomat.
He's an entrepreneur andco-founder of Sagan Diplomat.
(00:45):
He's an entrepreneur andco-founder of Sagan.
That's the company that hashelped hundreds of businesses
directly hire thousands ofpeople from around the world
since its founding just 15months ago.
You're going to love thisinterview, so let's go ahead and
jump right into it.
Jon Matzner (00:57):
My name is John Matzner, the company is called
Sagan and my title is co-founder.
Tom DuFore (01:03):
A great place for us to start here is really getting
into the heart and core of yourbusiness and what you guys are
doing.
I really like this question.
We talked pre-show and justtalking about what's wrong with
normal outsourcing and virtualassistant model and this whole
idea of attracting outsourcedtalent.
Jon Matzner (01:22):
So for the last 30 or 40 years people have been
hiring globally.
You know, AT&T in 1988 movedtheir customer service to the
Philippines or to India orwhatever, and the reason why
only big companies did it wasbecause it was expensive.
If you remember, you had to getlike a T1 line or a T3 line and
you had to FedEx, you know harddrives if you had to send
(01:46):
something big, and so for a longtime the model was a big office
tower in Mumbai or Manila whereyou had people doing revenue
cycle management or whatever ithappened to be.
And because of theproliferation of things like
Zoom or Slack or Microsoft Teamsor even Gmail, you no longer
(02:08):
have to operate within thatmodel, and what that means is
that companies can directly hireindividuals from around the
world rather than having to gothrough one of these what I
think of as relatively archaicbusiness models.
Now, that doesn't really matter,except for one big thing, which
is the quality of people thatyou get, and the cost at which
(02:32):
you can hire those people whenyou're doing it directly is a
fraction of what it is if you'redoing it via this kind of
outsourcing or staffing model.
That is very popular and soyoung, ambitious people do not
want to go into a call centerwith a headphone on and make 187
(02:53):
calls a day and their mousemovements are tracked.
They want to have a career,they want to have a relationship
with their employer, they wantyou to come visit them.
You want to.
They're just normal people whohappen to live in other
countries and historically thiswas not possible.
The technology was not there.
But in the last several years,particularly after COVID, you
can just work with Beth fromSouth Africa and over time you
(03:15):
forget whether she's in FortLauderdale or South Africa, and
that is an incredibly powerfulthing for small business owners,
for franchisors, forfranchisees.
Tom DuFore (03:24):
You started mentioning a little bit about
this outsourced staffing agencyor these virtual staffing type
models.
Someone might tune in and maybethey've tried it or worked with
it.
But for someone who hasn't talka little bit about that model
in, particular, we call that thestaffing markup model.
Jon Matzner (03:40):
And what that model is is.
I say, tom, I can get youpeople in the Philippines for $9
an hour and Tom goes $9 an hour, my goodness, that is a great
rate.
What Tom doesn't know is thatthe person that has billed out
to him is making $3 of that $9.
And that person's businessmodel is to make it seem really
complicated and really hard.
(04:01):
And, oh, tom, you know you haveto worry about all this stuff,
Just pay me $9.
But what happens is as soon asTom has that person that's now
embedded in your company, thatperson who is working for Tom 40
hours a week, and that companythat facilitated that is doing
very, very little, they try tomake it seem like they do a lot.
Trust me, they don't do a lot.
They are making six of the $9that Tom is paying every hour.
(04:23):
They are making six of the $9that Tom is paying every hour,
and so we call that the staffingmarkup model.
The reason why that matters isthere's nothing wrong with
capitalism.
And look, if Tom's okay with $9, god bless America.
I'm a capitalist, right.
The issue is that the qualityof the talent who will work for
$3 or $4 is very different andis usually relegated to kind of
(04:44):
like admin-y type roles.
You know kind of weak English,maybe they're just like banging
the phones or whatever.
And what we think about and talkabout is we just hired a
controller from Buenos Aires,argentina, who's working
directly with a lower middlemarket private equity shop who
previously worked at JP Morganin Buenos Aires, and this person
(05:06):
underwrites their inorganicgrowth pipeline.
Do you think that person isgoing to be okay with being
billed out and making 30 centson the dollar?
Or do you think they want tohave a career with Tom and say,
tom, I'm a member of the Big Skyteam and I'm going to fly up
and come see you and you'regoing to come down to Buenos
Aires?
They want to have a career,just like Americans do, and so
that's why it matters forlisteners.
Is that absolutely a virtualassistant or all this little
(05:29):
kind of low-level stuff?
We call it like a starter drug.
It's a great way to get started.
It's simple, but as soon as youhear somebody like me talking,
you're like, yeah, I want tokeep going.
Tom DuFore (05:40):
This is awesome, and that model really restricts
what keep going looks like Iresonate with what you just
described there, because I'vetried, and someone who listens
to this may have been in asimilar situation.
You try working with one ofthese groups.
They pitch this idea get thisworkforce at a lower price and
say, huh, that's interesting, itsounds great.
However, I experienced exactlywhat you said either low quality
(06:03):
, it ended up being highturnover and it just wasn't
worth the headaches.
That was going on and it was, Iwill say, very short-lived
attempt and I said, well, I'mnot doing that anymore and I
will source or find candidatesdomestically, or I just won't do
it, I'll figure something elseout.
Jon Matzner (06:21):
You know I'm sure you've talked about this on the
pod before when we think aboutwho our ICP is or our avatar,
right, who is our customer?
Almost 100% of them have triedto hire globally before and
failed, or have hired from maybeonly the Philippines and they
have a couple of virtualassistants or something like
that.
But there are people who havegot dipped a toe in and we kind
of open up our overcoat and showthem there's so much more to
(06:45):
this than Philippines or India.
There's Ireland, there's SouthAfrica, there's Argentina,
there's Canada.
For God's sakes, right, there's8 billion people outside the US,
just because some poopy personin your DMs, you know, tried to
bait and switch you on thequality of the video they showed
you and who actually worked,you know, try to bait and switch
you on the quality of the videothey showed you and who energy
(07:06):
they were Like.
That is like saying I went toone bad country and now I don't
travel anymore.
That's there's.
There's millions of places inthe world.
Please don't give up on travel.
And it's the same thing withkind of building a global
workforce, I'd say.
Tom DuFore (07:18):
Very, very well said .
Well, I didn't realize.
I fit your avatar perfectly,but how do you solve that
problem?
So you mentioned that CFO orhigh end financial analyst that
you're able to set someone upwith.
How does this whole thing work?
How do you help create thattrust with someone that really
that trust has been broken inthese international markets?
Jon Matzner (07:38):
What we've seen, generally speaking, is the
candidate speaks for themselves.
Generally speaking, I can talklike crazy and I can, and you go
.
Okay, whatever that guy's youknow just chirping.
But when I put, when Tom putsin a request and says I'm
looking for somebody who canhelp me do takeoffs at my home
(07:59):
improvement business, who I cansend iPhone pictures to, and
they come back to me with draftplans to show my customer, and
then I send you somebody whosays Hi, my name is Maria
Gonzalez, I'm from GuatemalaCity, I have 11 years of
architecture experience.
I went, I have a master's degreein architecture.
My dream salary is $1,700 amonth, full time and I'd love to
help you grow your homeimprovement company.
(08:21):
Tom goes, okay.
I believe, like the me talkingis not going to do anything.
Actually, looking at people isgoing to be how that you break
through to the next level.
And it kind of informs my storya little bit, which was, you
know, went to school on the Eastcoast and then I went into the
government.
So I worked kind of in thegreater national security world
(08:41):
and lived in the Middle East andNorth Africa for the first part
of my career and when I cameback to the States and started
building and buying businesses.
One of the core insights I tookfrom spending the better part
of a decade abroad was there arebrilliant people who happen to
live in other countries andtalent is equally distributed,
but opportunity isn't.
And so there is somebody who isbrilliant in Oman right now,
(09:04):
who is so smart and they're soarticulate and all they want to
do is help you grow Big Sky, andbecause of the power of the
internet, that person is a fewclicks away, and that, to me,
was kind of the seed of whateventually became Sagan was
there are brilliant people, theyjust live in these other
countries, and so facilitatingthat relationship is something I
(09:24):
dedicated my life to in thegovernment and then now as a
private sector entrepreneur.
Tom DuFore (09:30):
So connecting with these brilliant people, then
that becomes a challenge andseems like you're the conduit to
that.
How do you kind of find thesepeople and connect them with
your customers?
How does all of that work?
Jon Matzner (09:42):
Yeah, so we've got a team of maybe 75 or 80 spread,
I think.
Sagan's internal team is in 19or 20 different countries, I
think, and the joke that we useis we drink our own champagne,
meaning most of our executiveteam is global as well.
I mean, we're spread right, butwhat I would say is there are
two things I would say and thisis not secret, saucy or anything
(10:02):
, right, because it's a lot ofwork is the first thing I would
say is you got to kiss a lot offrogs to find a prince, and so
the business we're really in iswhen we put up an ad, we get 200
applicants and the businesswe're really in is evaluating,
testing, grading, screening,interviewing, profiling people
to then get those three princesamong the army of frogs, to kind
(10:24):
of put a point on it.
The second thing I would say isand you will appreciate this, I
think, given your background isrecruiting in every country for
every role is like a salesfunnel, meaning the way you
recruit a graphic designer inArgentina is night and day
different than the way youinterview a B2B cold caller in
South Africa.
So in South Africa, it's allabout Facebook groups, and so we
(10:47):
buy Facebook groups and publishjobs there.
In Belize, it's about churches.
In Argentina, it's about thelocal version of Indeed.
In Philippines, it's all aboutlocal version of Indeed In
Philippines.
It's all about LinkedIn orwhatever it happens to be right,
and so every one of these rolesand markets is like a different
sales funnel, and so what wekind of maintain an expertise in
(11:07):
is you come to us and you say Ineed a graphic designer, and we
take that and we go all right.
What's the kind of sourcing,screening, recruiting strategy
that is unique to this role,because it's very different than
a controller, than a graphicdesigner, than a data entry
person who you're just trying tosave money on.
I think we launched Sagan kindof publicly about 14 or 15
months ago, and we don't knowthe exact number, but we think
(11:29):
we've done close to 1,500 hires.
Tom DuFore (11:32):
I like how you said you know 8 billion people
outside of the US market andthere's lots of talent I think
that's very, very well said andyou're able to secure and find
them.
One of the things that I foundreally interesting is our
connection happened through afranchise connection and how we
ended up getting connected toeach other, and I'd love for you
to talk about how this appliesnot only to help that growth
(11:55):
minded entrepreneur or businessleader that's looking for some
kind of additional staff ortalent replacement, but also for
that franchise company and thatfranchisor that might need that
additional support to behelping their franchisees Yep.
Jon Matzner (12:10):
So what I would say is we work with a ton of
franchisors.
So what I would say is we workwith a ton of franchisors.
We also work with some folkswho sit above that at the kind
of like brand owner level, whoown a dozen brands and those
kinds of things, right?
So the first thing I would sayis I've learned and I think, tom
, you'll laugh when I say thiswhich is, if every other
sentence out of my mouth isn'tsell more units or drive
(12:30):
royalties, franchisors tune out.
When I'm talking to multi-unitoperators you know private
equity owned folks who own 25Burger Kings I'm talking about
profitability, I'm talking aboutEBITDA, I'm talking about
reducing OPEX.
But when I'm talking to a Zoror a brand owner, if I don't say
this sells units and thisdrives royalties, they're just
like yeah, it's okay, maybe youcan try with one of our Zs or
(12:53):
something, right?
So that's the first thing Iwould say up front.
So in our experience, that'sjust what we've seen.
What I would say is franchisors,both from a selling units
perspective and drivingroyalties.
Well, I'll start with sellingunits.
You're in the business ofhelping people build better
businesses.
That's the business you're in.
Best practice accumulation of avariety, whether Best practice,
accumulation of a variety,whether that's negotiating your
(13:14):
lease, or how to hire local swimcoaches right, or how to price.
That's really what businessyou're in, and global talent as
an advantage is something thatis extremely appealing.
And again, pardon my ignorance,what's it called Demo day at
franchises?
Tom DuFore (13:29):
Yeah, the discovery day Discovery, that's probably
what you're referring to.
Yeah, thank you.
Jon Matzner (13:33):
Discovery day and when you sit there and
somebody's looking at fourdifferent brands and one of the
brands says you know, look, inyour first year or two you're
going to be on the truck andyou're going to do everything.
And then the second brand saysyou know, you need a huge pile
of capital and you might be ableto stop doing this within a
year or two if okay, if you buythree different areas.
And the third brand, the onethat has really integrated
global talent, says from day one, we have a relationship with a
(13:56):
company called Sagan and whatthat's gonna do is, as a part of
we have people who've put us intheir FDDs and they say you're
gonna have a back officecoordinator from day one, and
what that means is this person'sgonna help you recruit crew,
they're gonna help you do yourschedule, they're gonna help you
deal with customer serviceissues so you can go out and
grow the business, so that, whenyou're starting from zero, you
(14:17):
can go out and do the one thingyou can do, which is be that
growth engine to go line up B2Breferrals or go get a channel
partnership or go freaking dropflyers off All the things that
only that owner operator can doin the beginning and not sitting
there going, oh, their creditcard got canceled.
(14:40):
I got to go change it inQuickBooks and do all the things
you got to do when you're small, and for a very wallet-friendly
price of, say, $1,500 a monthUS, you now can have that Z
focused like a laser on drivingrevenue, which drives royalties,
and also, during that discoveryday, go yeah, man, I hate doing
back office stuff.
This brand is going to supportme in back office from day one
and I'm going to go out and tryto drive revenue instead of oh,
(15:01):
the crew called in sick and Igot the things that you got to
do when you're small.
So that's what I see smartZores doing these days.
Tom DuFore (15:26):
In franchising.
Not everyone is, as youdescribed, a smart Zore.
Let's say, a franchisee listensto this.
Or someone comes along and says, well, my Zor does not kind of
fall into that bucket, but I'minterested.
Or maybe there's a group offranchisees that are interested.
How do you work withfranchisees?
Jon Matzner (15:44):
directly.
Yeah, so often you know we'veseen that going at the Zors is
hard and slow, you know, becausethey get.
You know they walk down thestreet and they get pitched
three times by a vendor.
Right, you know it's hard.
Right Now we do work with a lotof Zores, but most often the
way that we get started withZores is via a large Z.
(16:05):
If you're familiar with theFastSigns brand, the largest Z
in the network his name's Weshim and his partner, his name's
Wes Kaufman, and they do, Idon't know.
I think he shares this publiclyupwards of $50 million in
revenue as FastSigns and we'vedone between 40 and 50 hires for
him.
And he is the one who's kind oflike brought up to the network
not the Zor and because he'slike guys, I was able to grow
(16:30):
faster, support growth, let mylocal staff focus on local
things, let my global stafffocus on local things, let my
global staff focus on globalthings.
And so very often we went overa Z who's trying to reduce their
OPEX or support growth orwhatever it happens to be, and
then all of a sudden peoplestart like looking over me, like
dude, what are you doing?
How'd you solve your graphicdesign problem in Lancaster,
(16:51):
pennsylvania.
He's like oh, we don't graphicdesign in Lancaster, we just
sell and manufacture.
But when it comes to designingthe signage we kick it to some
of these other places and Saganhelps us get those folks.
So the way we work with folksat that level is we have two
different offerings.
One is kind of a contingencysearch model which you pay us a
one-time success fee if we findyou somebody.
(17:11):
Great.
That's a little bit moreexpensive if you don't want to
become a member, which isessentially an annual plan where
you get a certain number ofhires and then we have a lot of
other resources and support,things like continuing education
and a community and bestpractices and all those kinds of
things, discounts on payroll.
So usually people who are justgetting started will do that
(17:31):
kind of one-off hire and then assoon as they're like, oh my
goodness, I think I need to hirea bunch of people over the next
year or so, then they switchover to membership.
You know 95% of our customersare members.
Tom DuFore (17:43):
You mentioned briefly about kind of that
one-off franchisee, maybe thatsingle unit that's getting
started where maybe thefranchisor introduces them to
your services.
How have you found working withmaybe that smaller franchisee
that maybe has one, two or threefranchises that they own and
now they're saying I want thatextra help or I'm ready, I'm six
(18:05):
months in and I need someclerical or office support?
How do you work in that regard?
Jon Matzner (18:11):
Yeah, so.
So that would be really simple.
The way we work is you'd pay adeposit it's 500 bucks and you
just have a dream session andwe'll kind of coach you on this.
But, tom, you know, veryoftentimes I say it's a dream
session because it's an exercisein fantasy.
I want somebody who can coldcall, who also knows soccer, who
can do QuickBooks.
And you're like all right, mybrother like let's, you know,
(18:37):
come back to react.
Okay, like for, for this amountof money.
And you're like all right, I, I, I, okay, right, what's the
priority here?
Oh well, you know, if we getour QuickBooks sorted, that
would make everything better.
Okay, so a little bit moreQuickBooks oriented, right.
Very often with small companies,we call it Superman syndrome,
which is because you're so usedto having to jam 11 job
responsibilities into that frontdesk person to make their
(18:59):
payroll worth it, to make thenumbers work.
And we're like this person isgoing to be, say, $1,500 a month
is our average hire, full time,working your hours, right, you
don't need to kind of likeoverload them to justify it,
right.
And so they hop on with us 500bucks.
We start our search.
We're getting faster and faster, but for most roles a week or
two and we would then presentour three finalists that meet
(19:23):
your requirements.
You do the final interview.
If you like them.
You'd say I think Bob is great.
You pay us a one-time fee forkind of facilitating that
transaction and then Bob worksfor you and you pay him directly
1500 bucks a month forever.
We have a with that.
We have a replacement guaranteeof 90 days if for some reason
it doesn't work out, or aplacement no cost.
(19:43):
If you're a member, we replaceall of our hires forever at no
additional cost.
So pretty low risk associatedwith that.
But the idea is just get whatwe've seen is just get on the
phone with some of these peopleand it is.
You know you will think of yourbusiness life as before global
talent and after global talentbecause you'll be like yo.
I thought this was like a lowquality save money thing.
(20:05):
She has a master's and she'ssmarter than I am and you're
like, yeah, man, so it's like.
It's like AD and BC.
It's like before global talentand after global talent.
So what I would suggest isclick around our website, read
some stuff.
We've got a salary guide whereyou can see, actually for
different roles in differentcountries, kind of how much
people make.
It's at salarysaganpassportcom,it's free, just download that.
(20:26):
But what I'd say is just talkto a few people and if your hair
is not blown back, then don'tdo this.
But if you're just like therecould be something here, you not
blown back, then don't do this.
But if you're just like therecould be something here, you
know, I'd say kind of, take thered pill from the matrix.
Tom DuFore (20:38):
We're engaged in doing some work together and I'm
in the midst of reviewingcandidates myself and I will say
I've been very impressed.
I was out of town and unable todig deep into it, but just
started to, and the candidatesthat have come across are
fantastic and I'm certainsomeone in that mix is going to
be the right fit for us.
Jon Matzner (20:57):
So where I started with this, tom, was, you know,
one of the business I bought wasa home improvement company
based in Southern California andyou know I'm a proud, proud
American.
I, you know, did my governmentservice and had a lot of fun
doing that.
But it was a daily struggle forme to get people I could afford
that were sober and competentin my home improvement company.
(21:19):
It was a daily struggle and,again, I love my country, I love
.
But it was getting somebody toshow up at 8am without many
liquor bottles in the desk andwho could competently execute on
the operations andadministration and answering the
phone and doing crew scheduleswas a boil on my butt.
(21:43):
Let's say Right.
And so I said enough, enough.
And I went on this journey ofsupporting my local business
with a global workforce and Igot people who said, tom, you
know, or John, john, this is adream role.
I just want to thank you forthe opportunity and in four or
five years I'd love if I couldmaybe become, you know, a mid,
(22:06):
you know, an operations managerinstead of just an operations
coordinator.
But I know I got a lot of workto do between now and then and
I'm like I thought people likethis didn't exist, because I'd
been so beat down by somebodywho was just saying yes to the
job and they were playing onYouTube all day and I was just,
I was exhausted by it inSouthern California and I
couldn't afford it.
And so this it was, it was myown pain.
(22:26):
That kind of led me on thisjourney to then kind of rebuild
the way that I built companiesby combining local, a local
workforce, with a global onewhat's the best way for someone
to get in touch with you or thecompany or learn more about what
?
you're doing.
If you're on Twitter, I do.
I write a lot on Twitter atMatzner John, my last name,
M-A-T-Z-N-E-R-J-O-N.
I'm pretty active on Twitter inparticular, but our company if
(22:49):
you just go to getsagancom,G-E-T-S-A-G-A-N, like Carl S,
write a lot.
I have a newsletter and apodcast, both called Lazy
Leverage, so that's anotherplace if you want to learn more
or hear my awesome voice.
Tom DuFore (23:03):
Perfect, and we'll make sure we include all that in
the show notes too, so someonecan click on that and get to
your resources quickly there.
Well, this is a great time inthe show, John, we ask every
guest the same four questionsbefore they go.
And the first question we askis have you had a miss or two on
your journey?
Jon Matzner (23:17):
and something you learned from it Miss or two on
my journey would be I've hadmultiple.
I've had, you know, threemisses.
This morning I left college.
It was probably the mostimpactful miss of my life.
I left college.
I thought I was about to get ajob and start my career in the
government and I moved toWashington DC, signed a lease
and the day I showed up I foundout I got rejected after, just
(23:38):
at the very end of this processthat I thought I was a lock for
and I was sat down by a mentorand essentially there's this old
Abraham Lincoln quote thatbecame thematically important
for me, which was I will prepareand one day my day will come,
and rather than basically havinga pity party it was I'm going
(23:59):
to use this time to sharpen mysword.
And I think there's probablypeople here listening who are
maybe in a W-2 that they're notthrilled with, or maybe they're
in a franchise network thatthey're stuck in and they just
can't get it through.
And rather than kind of takethat as a disempowering idea, I
think the idea of saying, well,what can I do right now to get
(24:19):
ready when my day does come?
Okay, I need to learn Spanishbecause I want to be in the home
improvement space.
Okay, I want to go take abookkeeping and accounting
course at night so that I canknow my numbers cold when I do
finally get into a system and agrowing business model, right,
and so I just I that was veryimpactful on me to basically
have an internal locust ofcontrol, rather than kind of
(24:41):
feel sorry for myself because Igot a freaking rejection or
whatever.
Tom DuFore (24:45):
Thank you for sharing that.
And let's talk about a make awin or a highlight.
Jon Matzner (24:49):
Make a win or a highlight would be we created a
business model from scratch andit's exploded, exploded.
And so, historically, this ideawe call it Costco for global
talent, which is this membershipthing was invented by me in a
jacuzzi when I was talking to mydad, because I was like I don't
want to sit between people andtheir talent and mark up the
labor forever, but I want tohave a way to provide enduring
(25:12):
value and make it all work.
And it was just a completeexercise in pure business thing,
and the market has responded toit.
You know, we have customersthat are $8 billion, private
equity funds and pre-revenuefranchisees and everything in
between, and it was completelyinvented by me.
Tom DuFore (25:30):
Well, the name of the show is Multiply your
Success, and we always ask everyguest have you used a
multiplier to grow yourself,personally or professionally, or
any organizations you've been apart of?
Jon Matzner (25:41):
One of the single biggest multipliers that I can't
emphasize enough is the bookGetting Things Done by David
Allen, and I read it maybe 15years ago and I was the kid in
high school who used to writehis homework on his hand.
And I read that book and I said, if I'm going to live up to my
potential, I cannot bedisorganized, I cannot have 87
(26:01):
unread emails, I cannot forgetmeetings, I cannot not know how
to take notes, and that book 15or 20 years ago set me on a path
of being very well organized assomebody who is not naturally
like that, and I would say ithas been a core contributor to
my professional trajectory.
And so it sounds boring, but itis so stick and important to be
(26:26):
that guy who doesn't missanything, who doesn't forget
things, who knows what to workon at any given time, and so I
can't recommend David Allengetting things done that kind of
philosophy enough.
Tom DuFore (26:36):
The final question we ask every guest, John, is
what does success mean to you?
Jon Matzner (26:40):
Success to me looks like my dad's name is Bruce, so
I'm John Matzner.
My dad's Bruce was a careerentrepreneur, went to Harvard
Business School and became anentrepreneur before.
It was cool is what he says inthe early 80s.
Right now, 90% of the peoplewho go to HBS are entrepreneurs,
but back then that wasn't thecase, and he always said you
know, my goal is to and I callit the Bruce Matzner ratio,
(27:02):
which is dollars earned to daysin flip-flops.
And so success looks like to mebeing able to have, be
professionally ambitious, to be,you know, the leader of an
organization I believe in or acontributor to an organization I
believe in, but also balancingit with a great life and not
deferring life in the name ofwhatever that professional
(27:23):
trajectory is.
And so to me, it's this healthyinterplay between professional
ambition and being a good dad,being a good husband,
contributing to my community andnot and doing everything I can
to kind of balance those.
That's what success looks liketo me, my dad.
Tom DuFore (27:38):
John, as we bring this to a close, is there
anything you're hoping to shareor get across that you haven't
had a chance to yet?
Jon Matzner (27:44):
I would say what I'm hoping people take away is
and it's why my podcast andnewsletter is called Lazy
Leverage, which is the businessthat you currently own is a
choice.
It's a choice, and there arepeople like you who, through
learning from engaging withpeople like Tom, through reading
(28:05):
and education, have found a wayto break free of what you think
is a set of fixed constraints.
And you are making a choiceevery day, kind of like what you
tolerate is what becomes yourreality.
And if you say you know what, Iknow that I'm on the truck
right now.
There is a guy out there or agirl, or a book, or a method or
(28:29):
a vendor or whatever that canwork with you step by step to
get off the truck, so to speak,or to get that second unit, or
to improve your gross margins.
And so what I'd say is, even ifyou've tried a few times and
failed, listen to my podcast,read books, talk to Tom, go in
forums, whatever I'd say, don'tgive up, because you answering
(28:51):
customer service emails at 4pmon a Saturday does not have to
be.
Maybe it's a short season oflife, but there is a clear path
to exit that, and so I just wantto give people hope that there
are people out there, through avariety of ways, who have broken
out of that and you know whoaren't scammers trying to sell
you some baloney course orsomething.
There are proper professionalswho can kind of take you by the
(29:14):
hand and say, come on, let's getyou out of the day to day.
Tom DuFore (29:18):
John, thank you so much for a fantastic interview
and let's go ahead and jump intotoday's three key takeaways.
So takeaway number one that Ireally found interesting is when
John said that companies havebeen outsourcing internationally
since the 1980s.
I thought that seems like along time.
I had no idea had been going onthat long and that companies
(29:39):
can now hire directlyindividuals from all around the
world and that it's easier thanit's ever been and especially
for that small and mid-sizedbusiness community that
(30:02):
organizations will use when youhire temporary or potentially
permanent staff from around theworld when you're working with
these various agencies and Iknow that I tried working
through some of these types ofgroups very short lived and for
me personally it just did not goas well or as I thought it was
going to.
Takeaway number three is whenJohn talked about Sagan and that
they've done over 1,500 hiresin 15 months or so.
(30:26):
That seems like a lot of peoplein a short amount of time and
that he's really designed tohelp support franchisors,
multi-unit franchisees and evensingle unit franchisees, and I
find it interesting that he'sreally focused on this franchise
community and unit franchisees.
And I find it interesting thathe's really focused on this
franchise community and ourfranchise world.
And now it's time for Today'sWin-Win.
(30:47):
So Today's Win-Win comes fromthe end of the episode, when he
talked about the Bruce Matznerratio, and I love that.
It's something his daddeveloped and John has named it
the Bruce Matzner ratio, whichis dollars earned to days in
(31:08):
flip-flops, dollars earned todays in flip-flops, and I
thought that that was a perfectway to summarize the interview,
because really, what John istrying to do, not only for
himself but for his customersand the clients he serves, is to
help them improve that ratio ofdollars earned to days in
flip-flops.
So I really thought that was agreat way to close, because John
(31:31):
is helping his customers find away to spend maybe a few more
days in flip-flops by hiringsome great talent and great
people to help support thebusinesses they work with.
And this Bruce Matzner ratio,as he said, is dollars earned
days in flip-flops to help youbalance and remember it's not
(31:52):
just about income, it's alsoabout time spent with your
family and in your community,but also not to forget about
you've got to generate someincome as well.
So it's kind of this motion ofall of this working together.
I just love that.
I thought that was a greatwin-win to summarize the episode
today, and so that's theepisode today.
(32:13):
Folks, please make sure yousubscribe to the podcast and
give us a review, and rememberif you or anyone you know might
be ready to franchise theirbusiness or take their franchise
company to the next level.
Please connect with us atBigSkyFranchiseTeamcom where you
can schedule your free, noobligation consultation.
Thanks for tuning in and welook forward to having you back
next week.
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