March 6, 2025 • 50 mins
In this interview, I sit down with Karmela, a Holocaust survivor who lived through one of history’s darkest times, in Budapest. As a child, she lost her family in the gas chambers and witnessed unimaginable horrors. She bravely shares her story of survival, escape, and resilience.
Joining her is her son, Joel, as they discuss not only Karmela’s past but also their mission to share powerful stories through their true crime podcast, SurvivingTheSurvivor @STSTalk and book. Joel talks news, politics, his creative process and visiting his moms home town.
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Producer & Host: Jennica Sadhwani
Editing: Stephan Menzel
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
It was very close to the end of World War II.
My father couldn't believe thatthe Germans would do what people
were making, you know,concentration camps and gas.
My stepfather's pregnant wifeand son were gassed in
(00:23):
Auschwitz.
I remember snipers, like acouple was coming towards us on
the bridge and one of themdropped.
I think that prejudices are soingrained and prejudgments and
looking only at one side of theconflict or of the situation
(00:45):
rather than on both sides andtry to sort it out.
I don't think that will change.
SPEAKER_03 (00:57):
Joel Carmela, welcome to Multispective.
I am so, so excited to have youguys on air with me.
SPEAKER_00 (01:04):
Thank you for inviting us.
And you got a little taste of itoff camera, behind the scenes.
I apologize in advance for whatcould be a train wreck ahead.
This is my beautiful mother, butwe have a tendency to argue
SPEAKER_03 (01:20):
and cut each other off.
You guys are a dynamic duo.
I think I can see why yourpodcast is blown up.
It's just the relationshipbetween you guys, the dynamic.
I mean, the bickering, it'sfunny.
It's like fun to listen to.
SPEAKER_00 (01:34):
It is.
If you're not her son, but I'mher son and it's not always that
fun.
So my mom, I call her Carm.
I call her mom.
I call whatever, but it'sCarmela's her full name with a K
one L.
But she's known affectionatelyon the podcast as Carm.
The podcast is called survivingthe survivor.
(01:55):
And my mother is a childHolocaust survivor.
And that's how we came up.
So the name was actually sort oftongue in cheek.
But ironically, we do a podcast.
live daily true crime show onYouTube and everywhere you
listen to podcasts every singleday, 5 or 7 p.m.
Eastern Time in America.
And and we talk about the mosttopical cases going on around
(02:20):
the world, primarily here in theStates.
But so it started as just my momand I talking to random people
and no one cared.
And that reflected in ournumbers.
And then suddenly we got turnedon to a very big true crime
story here in the States.
in South Florida.
And then one thing led toanother.
And in about two years, we'vegot 133,000 subscribers and
(02:43):
we're getting about 2 millionplus views or listens a month.
So we've gotten really good.
And by the way, I'm theinterviewer and we've always got
three panelists on every show.
SPEAKER_03 (02:57):
That's amazing.
SPEAKER_02 (02:58):
And the slogan is that we have the best In true
crime.
In true crime.
Best guess.
SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
Everyone was very interested in that story.
And since then, we've done agazillion other big ones.
SPEAKER_03 (03:13):
Wow.
Have you guys ever felt likeyour life's in danger talking
about these kind of storiesbeing sometimes in the absolute
hub of it all that you could bea target?
SPEAKER_00 (03:24):
Karm?
No one would hurt innocent Karm.
No, no, I am
SPEAKER_02 (03:28):
paranoid, but even I don't worry about it because
during all the politicaltensions, which there were, you
know, between the Democrats andthe Republicans before the
election, we are totally out ofpolitics.
And, well, I tend to be prettydiplomatic, you know, and I
(03:52):
don't go into extremes.
SPEAKER_03 (03:54):
I love that you guys sort of like pivoted a little
bit and it sort of like reallyworked for you I know that Joel
you've worked in Fox before sodo you feel like bringing in
some of those skills from yourprevious job and in everything
that you do I mean that you'velearned how to be like a
presenter you know how to dointerviews you feel like that
comes naturally for you what arethe skills that you've picked up
(04:16):
in that
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
to a degree yeah I think everything I say this
frequently everything I've donein life is a complete accident
never I never really thought Iwas gonna be a journalist.
I found out about this thingcalled the NBC Page Program,
which is very well known in theStates, where it's basically you
do little assignments at NBCNews, and one thing led to
another.
I was one of the first producerhires at MSNBC News, and then I
(04:41):
ended my career 27 years lateras a correspondent for Fox News
out of Washington, D.C.
The most important thing in lifeis listening, that makes you the
best possible interviewer.
So you're taking everything injust a very good life skill.
And I definitely learned stuffand the advantage on YouTube, I
(05:04):
think, and there's a lot ofthere's there's actual technique
like you've got to come to ashow with a bit of a rundown, a
bit of an idea which way you'regoing to take it, follow up
questions, potentially, youknow, all these sorts of things.
And I take it seriously.
And I, you know, I'm very wellprepared, even though people in
the audience don't always agree.
And that's it.
So, yeah, I think the shortanswer is, is is yes.
(05:26):
In my opinion, the future iswhat you're doing, Jennica, and
what I'm doing, which is this.
Traditional media, at least herein the States, I mean, no one
really listens, watches anymore.
CNN, MSNBC, they have theirall-time lowest ratings right
now.
The wave of the future isJennica and multispective.
That is the future.
SPEAKER_03 (05:47):
Carmela, what about you?
What are your thoughts on this?
Do you agree with it?
SPEAKER_02 (05:51):
As I said before, I I majored, I went to the
University of Geneva inSwitzerland, and I have a
bachelor's degree in politicalscience.
Before that, I lived inYugoslavia, which at that time
was a communist country.
And before that, I had tosurvive during the Nazi era in
(06:15):
Europe, I'm sure.
So I am very experienced in notgetting in trouble, if possible.
One of the funny little storiesthat I have to tell you is that
once I love dogs, I don't likecats.
(06:35):
And once I said...
SPEAKER_00 (06:37):
You just alienated half the audience.
SPEAKER_02 (06:39):
Anyway, the point is that it became a controversial
issue.
What is this?
You discriminate against cats?
You know, you have to really becareful what you say and how you
say it in trouble.
And you really have to be verydiplomatic and careful not to
walk on other people's toes.
SPEAKER_03 (07:00):
If we had communication the way we do
today, if we had it back then,how different do you think the
Holocaust would have been?
Do you think it would have beenas vast, as crazy as it actually
was?
Considering
SPEAKER_02 (07:14):
how much hatred there is towards Jews today, I
don't think it would be thatdifferent.
SPEAKER_00 (07:21):
Hmm.
SPEAKER_02 (07:23):
I
SPEAKER_00 (07:23):
mean, it's a very dark
SPEAKER_02 (07:27):
view of the way things are.
You see, when the problem wasthat people were discriminating
against people of color, thenJews were declared as the white
(07:48):
man.
SPEAKER_04 (07:48):
Hmm.
You
SPEAKER_02 (07:51):
see the point?
And then now when it's okay tobe of any color, now we are the
colonists.
There is no way for us to win.
No way.
I don't think it would.
I know what you are thinking.
You are thinking, oh, everythingwould be visible and explained
(08:14):
and communication andtransparent.
And I think no.
I think that prejudices are soingrained and prejudgments and
looking only at one side of theconflict or of the situation
rather than on both sides andtry to sort it out.
(08:38):
I don't think that would change.
SPEAKER_03 (08:42):
Yeah, do you reckon it's also because, like, it's
just people need someone toscapegoat?
Like, people need to hate onsomeone or something, and it's
just easy.
SPEAKER_02 (08:52):
Even, you know, when I was still in college, I
remember this as if it's stillvery fresh in my mind.
In a sociology course, welearned how you have to have
always an out group, an in groupand an out group, the group you
will hate.
UNKNOWN (09:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (09:11):
Yeah, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_02 (09:12):
So, you know, religious people say we are the
chosen people.
Like, obviously, we are chosenfor the wrong things.
But in any case.
But the interesting thing isthat we don't hide who we are.
That's true.
We don't hide.
And people are very
SPEAKER_03 (09:33):
loving and caring.
Carmen, I do want to go intoyour story a little bit because,
you know, I think that that'ssomething that we need to talk
about.
And I think we are just havingless and less and less people
that are around to share thiskind of story or even have the
language, right?
The English language to be ableto share that story.
So I know that I was searchingfor, you know, Holocaust
(09:53):
survivor stories for a while.
It's very, very, I was verylucky to come into you guys.
And so, yeah, I mean, why don'tyou start by telling our
listeners a little bit aboutyour story?
Where does it all begin
SPEAKER_02 (10:06):
for you?
All right.
How many, because I learned, Ilearned to, like a bridge and
simplify to the point of where Ican do the whole Holocaust in
five minutes, in 10 minutes.
No, but all kidding aside, howmuch time do I have to?
Oh,
SPEAKER_03 (10:23):
you've got all the time in the world.
SPEAKER_00 (10:26):
What I was going to say is there's only, Jenica, in
the entire world, 265,000Holocaust survivors left, and
that number drops a lot everyday.
Half of those live in Israel.
The rest are spread out acrosslike 90 countries.
Yeah.
Anyway, Carm, you are the starof the show.
I'll lead her into this.
SPEAKER_02 (10:45):
By the way, this is a statistic from last summer.
100% it changed.
I personally know a few thatdied.
If you ever get hold of thatbook, Surviving the Survivor,
it's on Amazon.
The reason I say is because inthe back of the book, we have
(11:06):
some pictures and also the townwhere I I was born and Joel came
last summer before the book wasfinished.
He did an epilogue with hisfamily, the grandkids,
everybody.
We went to this town.
The town is called Subotica.
And you were in Hungary.
(11:27):
So it's right on the borderbetween Hungary and what is
today Serbia.
But in 1939, when I was born, itwas Yugoslavia and then
Yugoslavia Yugoslaviapolitically fell apart into six
different states.
I was born there in 39.
(11:49):
My father was an optometrist,and he had his own eyeglass
store on the main street.
This town had about 100,000people, but had a very...
SPEAKER_00 (12:06):
This is a 27-hour version of the story.
We're starting with the street,the description of the street.
SPEAKER_02 (12:13):
I have to set the stage for the...
You have to get the idea wherewe grew.
It was a sleep with a one mileradius center and 5,000 Jews in
this town of 100,000 and welived in the center.
Most of the Jews lived in thecenter and outside it was
(12:35):
agricultural and different,there were different ethnicities
in this town.
Everything went well for myfamily, my father, mother and
and my grandmother, grandfather,and my father went to work.
Then in 1942, the Nazis, theGerman Nazis were working with
(13:02):
the Hungarian Nazis, and theytook over this town and attached
it to Hungary.
This is the history of thistown.
Once it's attached to Serbia,once it's attached to Hungary.
During the war, there was nobombardments or war.
(13:22):
They just came in, marched in,and they said, this is now
Hungary.
But nothing happened.
And then a little bit later,they said all the Jews have to
go into the ghetto.
I don't know if you heard of theword ghetto.
For example, in Venice, the wordcomes from Italy, from Venice,
(13:43):
where the Jews had to live in acertain part of Venice and it
was maybe it's an Italian wordit means something in Italian
they live in the ghetto and sothey put us all in the ghetto
but it was very close to the endof World War II because World
(14:04):
War II went from 1939 to 1945and when when we went to the
ghetto it was a little bitlooser and less violent than
other places because they evenlet my father go out to his eye
(14:25):
store because the people neededeyeglasses so they let him go
into his eyeglass store and thenAt
SPEAKER_03 (14:38):
that point, though, did you guys have any idea that
there was something going onspecifically towards the Jews?
SPEAKER_02 (14:44):
I spoke about this with my mother a lot because I
was only four and a half, fourand a half, very precautious.
I was with old people, veryprecautious.
And anyway...
My mother said they all were inmajor denial, in major denial.
(15:05):
They heard rumors they couldn'tbelieve.
They could not believe.
And especially my father, who,before the Nazis really became
the Nazis in Germany, my fatherspent four years studying
optometry.
(15:27):
And In Germany.
And I have in the book, for somestrange reason, his diploma
survived.
You know, I have a picture ofhis diploma in my book.
In Joel's book.
SPEAKER_00 (15:44):
Freudian slip.
I
SPEAKER_04 (15:46):
love it.
In my book.
It's become my book now.
SPEAKER_00 (15:50):
She's the only person in human history that
didn't write or do anything yetsigns every single book and
every book so many.
I signed the
SPEAKER_02 (15:57):
book.
SPEAKER_00 (15:57):
I signed it.
This version of the story, I'mgoing to scoot us forward.
So long story short, her fatherdid not believe this was going
to happen.
Her mother, these are mygrandmother and grandfather,
which is weird because this isone generation apart, right?
And I feel like I'm so farremoved from it.
So my grandfather stays.
(16:19):
One day the Nazis come.
They grab him.
My mother and grandmother runout the back door.
There was a hole in the fence.
They take off.
No, no, no.
You are killing
SPEAKER_02 (16:27):
the story.
I
SPEAKER_00 (16:29):
have
SPEAKER_02 (16:30):
to say this one part.
My father couldn't believe thatthe Germans would do what people
were making, you know,concentration camps and gas.
And my father couldn't believethis because he lived there and
he said, I know the Germans.
They were a civilized people.
My mother wanted to go to thebig city of Budapest.
(16:53):
Were you in Budapest?
Yeah, that's where I was.
That was a big city compared tomy hometown.
My mother wanted to go there andhide and my father refused to
because he said the Germanswould have the worst case
scenario they would make uswork.
Anyway, now I'm going toaccelerate it.
They came to take us to thefreight trains to take us to the
(17:18):
concentration camp on June 18thand my father in that moment
when they came very early in themorning They were Hungarian
Nazis and they came in and theysaid, we want you to put all
your money and all your jewelryon the table.
We want you to make a littlesuitcase for yourself.
(17:40):
You are leaving.
At that moment, my father gotscared and he said to my mother,
do something.
Do something, Vera.
Vera was her name.
And my mother took my hand andthere was a little gate on the
in the back of, the houses hadlittle gardens next to them,
(18:02):
very small houses with gardens.
And she walked me out of theghetto while the soldiers were
collecting next door.
And took me, I won't go intodetails what happened, where we
went.
We ended up at an eye doctor, aChristian eye doctor's house,
(18:25):
who my father had a businessconnection with him because they
referred to it.
And he told my father prior tothat that he would help us in
any way he
SPEAKER_04 (18:36):
could.
SPEAKER_02 (18:37):
And even though he knew that he would be hung or
shot or sent to a cancerconcentration camp, he opened
the door and let us in.
Wow.
SPEAKER_03 (18:48):
And that was a guy that basically saved you guys in
a sense.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (18:53):
he was one of the two major people who saved me
because my mother was, it was asmall center of town and
everybody, my mother was ablonde, natural blonde, not like
I.
SPEAKER_04 (19:07):
But
SPEAKER_02 (19:08):
she was a natural blonde and people in town knew
her.
She was a she happened to bepretty, like with a doll face,
pretty woman.
And people knew her, and she wasyoung, and she was horrified
that she would be recognized.
And so the doctor, Scherzer, hewas a benefactor of some nuns,
(19:35):
and he said, he will ask thesenuns if they will take me.
And and let my mother know.
He went over to, there were nophones, so he went over to the
nuns and told the truth to thenun superior, and the nun
(20:00):
superior said, even though sheknew the danger, she knew that
she would be in major, if notkilled, very close to it, and
she said she would take me, butI have to come over night.
So my mother and Dr.
Scherzer walked me over there.
They left me there.
And my mother took a train up toBudapest, which is only a two
(20:26):
and a half hour train trip, andleft me with these nuns who were
very nice to me.
And it was almost the end of thewar already in some parts of
Europe, like in Italy.
SPEAKER_04 (20:39):
And
SPEAKER_02 (20:40):
anyway, I was with these nuns for about six And my
mother started to really worryabout me and miss me very badly.
And she bribed the railroadworker who was related to the
assistant of my father in thestore, who lived in Budapest,
(21:03):
worked for the railroads.
And this guy brought me up toBudapest after all these months.
When I arrived, it's an irony oflife, you can Google it.
As I was arriving there at thesame week, maybe, if you Google
(21:25):
the siege of Budapest duringWorld War II, the Soviet Union,
ally of the United States, theywere trying to get the Nazis
out, the Germans and theHungarian Nazis out of Budapest,
and they started very badbombardments.
(21:49):
And they lasted about 49 days,these bombardments, and we had
to sleep in the basement and soon and so forth, and there was
no food, and it was not a happytime.
SPEAKER_04 (22:03):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (22:06):
let me fill in a couple of the gaps.
So her father, again, he didn'tthink this could happen, my
grandfather, so he stays, hegets taken Auschwitz obviously
the most notorious concentrationcamp and he had studied his
degree as my mom said in Germanyso he was an optometrist he
thought it would be a good ideato tell the Nazis he said look I
(22:28):
studied how to build or createor make lenses and glasses and
right away they put him in thedeath line and made whoever who
was with him
SPEAKER_02 (22:39):
my mother's father my mother's father So he's
sending it because they didn'tknow which lane goes where.
And he stepped over from theother lane and went with my, my
father into the gas chamber.
SPEAKER_00 (22:54):
Yeah.
Uh, so there
SPEAKER_02 (22:56):
were these witnesses from Subotica who told my mother
in the end of the war.
SPEAKER_00 (23:01):
And by the way, it's Sunday morning in Shanghai.
Everyone's loving the story.
Um, but as depressing as, as itis.
Um, so, um, then the other thingis, you know, like my, my
grandmother, uh, had like thiscrazy inner strength because she
was not always like this uhlater in life but she you know
she protected her and uhsomebody you know to when they
(23:25):
were in budapest my mom wouldpurposely say she when she was
she was converted uh in thiscatholic school so she would
purposely say like the ourfather and these other prayers
so no one would like
SPEAKER_02 (23:37):
what happened
SPEAKER_00 (23:38):
so they wouldn't know that they were jewish
basically and the thing that iwas going to say is there was no
food so So during thebombardments, horses would keel
over, get killed, and they wouldhave to run out and, you know,
chop off some meat off of a legof a horse.
And that's how they survived.
So some crazy stories.
Right.
Because it was
SPEAKER_02 (23:55):
still winter.
It was March and February,March, and it was still snowing.
And it was still like it was thehorses were refrigerated, you
SPEAKER_00 (24:07):
know, preserved.
Every animal person hates thatright now.
UNKNOWN (24:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:13):
What was some of the things that you saw during that
time yourself?
Was there anything that you willforever sort of carry with you?
SPEAKER_02 (24:33):
Well, one of the things that I remember, there
were snipers and there wasartillery and there were
bombardments.
So at night...
It was a big apartment building,long, but it wasn't very high,
but it was like five, six, notsix, five story high, but all
(24:57):
the people were permitted tobring down a bed, all the
tenants, one bed where fourpeople could sleep on one single
bed every night during thebombardments.
And my mother was hiding in thisapartment with my my
grandmother's sister and hercousin.
(25:19):
They were suspicious of her, theother tenants who always lived
in this house.
It wasn't uncommon to betray andtell the police that they were
Jewish.
So my mother was very afraid ofthat.
(25:41):
When I arrived, I knew exactlywho I was.
now five and a quarter or fiveand a half.
I was very precocious.
So I knew I was Jewish and Iwould kneel down next to my bed.
They were all beds in thisunfinished basement, one after
(26:03):
the other.
And at a very loud voice, Iwould say these Christian
prayers.
every night so that nobody wouldsuspect.
And I was kind of the unsungheroine of the family for this.
They mentioned it afterwards.
(26:24):
But it went on for about 50days.
There were many dead people.
And my mother was like, mymother was strange.
She insisted on taking me withher during the time when she was
She was looking for flour orlooking for food, going and
(26:46):
trying to get some food, and shewouldn't leave me behind.
And I remember snipers, like acouple was coming towards us on
the bridge, and one of themdropped.
(27:08):
You know, the...
It's
SPEAKER_00 (27:10):
the first time I've ever heard this story in my life
right now.
SPEAKER_02 (27:13):
Yeah, this is a story that my mother repeated to
me so that my memory is, that'sthe reason I don't tell it often
because it's a kind of a foggymemory.
But she, the weirdest thing isthat these were people from my
town that she recognized.
(27:35):
And then she told me anotherhorrendous story that stayed
with me more than anything Iexperienced, that my mother, who
was also a survivor, she said tome, she was going in, you
remember the tramways inBudapest?
And did you ever see those shoeson the shore?
(27:56):
Oh, yes,
SPEAKER_03 (27:57):
yes,
SPEAKER_02 (27:57):
yeah.
So my mother told me this storythat like, that really made me
sick.
There was a group of people thatthey were leading towards the
Danube to shoot them, the armedpeople.
And an athletic young man jumpedup on a tramway as it was
(28:24):
moving.
Wow.
But wait a minute.
And my mother saw it with herown eyes.
My mother wrote down all herexperiences when she was 84
years old.
She dictated them and she wrotethem down.
And she saw them jump up in thetramway and being pushed off the
(28:48):
tramway by the people in thetramway because they didn't want
to help him.
UNKNOWN (28:56):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (28:56):
My gosh.
So my grandmother remarried andmy mother's father was named
Ladislav.
They called him Latsy.
My grandmother remarried anotherguy with the same name,
Ladislav.
So he was also a Latsy.
My whole life, my mom spelled itL-A-T-Z-I.
So when my middle daughter wasborn, I took the Z-I, the Z-I,
and my middle daughter's name isZizi.
(29:18):
And then my mom, my mom doesn'thandle things like this well.
So she laughed at the name andsaid that I was actually a
C-I-C-I.
So now I've misnamed my daughteraccording to my mom.
And for some reason, my momthinks it's funny that I did
that, which isn't really thatfunny, Carm.
But I have to tell you
SPEAKER_02 (29:38):
something.
I have to tell you.
My stepfather's pregnant wifeand son were gassed in
Auschwitz.
SPEAKER_00 (29:51):
It's another uplifting part of the story.
SPEAKER_02 (29:53):
Well, she wanted to hear about it.
SPEAKER_00 (29:57):
She
SPEAKER_02 (29:59):
asked for it.
SPEAKER_03 (30:02):
Man, that's crazy, though.
Do you know of anyone actuallythat did survive Auschwitz?
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (30:09):
many people survived at that moment because it was
only like three, four monthsbefore liberation.
The Hungarian Jews were the lastones I have here in the building
where I live, Polish, fromorigin, Polish Jews.
(30:29):
They went through this hell forfour and a half years.
SPEAKER_00 (30:34):
My mom has two friends.
One is no longer with us, butone was like a legal, you know,
huge lawyer in Israel.
The other is a very well-knownarchitect.
And, you know, I interviewedthese people all the way back in
1999 before I ever actually didanything.
Right.
in the book, but her friend Ritawould hide, I think it was Rita,
(30:56):
there was Brewery and Rita, butone of them would hide at night
inside of a coffin.
It was crazy, some of thesestories.
That's where they would spendthe night.
Another one was inside a pigcarcass or something crazy.
So the stories are just unreal.
Well, I
SPEAKER_02 (31:12):
have a very good, close friend who lives in New
Jersey now, and she was She's myage, a year older, and she was
hidden in a pigsty in Poland for24 months.
(31:34):
On the top of the pigs, therewas a ladder, and they keep the
hay.
SPEAKER_04 (31:39):
That's
SPEAKER_02 (31:41):
where her mother and her were hiding.
And the righteous Gentile woman,a Christian woman, saved them.
SPEAKER_03 (31:52):
My gosh.
SPEAKER_02 (31:53):
Nobody who is alive could be saved without help.
SPEAKER_00 (31:58):
You've got Jenica speechless here.
No, no,
SPEAKER_02 (32:02):
no.
Listen, it's like hard tobelieve the level of atrocity.
Hard to believe.
It's hard to...
You know, I survived and by theway, you don't have to buy the
book.
Our book is on Audible.
If you go on Audible, it's Julesand my voice.
SPEAKER_00 (32:27):
I've really elevated your life and your
SPEAKER_02 (32:32):
golden years.
I know.
SPEAKER_03 (32:34):
I
SPEAKER_02 (32:34):
don't know how to convey my appreciation, Jules.
How can I express it better?
Because you never...
I don't think you hear me when Isay I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00 (32:48):
ACDC has a song.
It's called Money Talks.
SPEAKER_02 (32:51):
Oh, you want me to pay
SPEAKER_03 (32:52):
Money talks.
Just
SPEAKER_00 (33:10):
pay me money.
Thank me money.
physical remains, so they justwrote his name on my
great-grandfather's tombstone,which is in the middle of
nowhere in Serbia, where I'venever been, and so we went.
(33:32):
It was amazing.
It's next
SPEAKER_02 (33:33):
to the town.
SPEAKER_00 (33:33):
It's next to the town.
It's a beautiful city.
SPEAKER_02 (33:36):
Even Joe was amazed how many, you know, it was a
Jewish cemetery, and there werea lot of dead people there.
My father's parents had the goodluck of dying before
SPEAKER_04 (33:52):
They
SPEAKER_02 (33:52):
were taken away from natural causes.
So when my mother came back fromhiding in Budapest in the end of
the war, there was a little roomin the bottom of my
grandparents' tomb, and she puton my father's name that he was
(34:13):
killed in Auschwitz and that helived 34 years.
So the children, we have apicture in the book of that.
SPEAKER_03 (34:22):
Did you find it quite triggering going back
there?
SPEAKER_02 (34:26):
Well, don't forget, I was away for about a few
months, really, because most ofthe time I was at the nuns, but
I never left the nunnery, ever.
And then when the war was over,I went right back to my
hometown, and I have my highschool diploma from my hometown.
(34:50):
And I grew up with these peoplein my hometown.
I went to the 50th high schoolreunion one year, and I went a
few more times, and I still havepeople I know, people who I'm
friends with.
I still have my stepfather'sfamily.
(35:11):
There are relatives there.
I
SPEAKER_04 (35:13):
mean, it
SPEAKER_03 (35:16):
sounds like you picked up right where you kind
of left off.
It was like your life was onpause for a while.
It was a very traumatic pause,and then you kind of go right
back into it and continueeducation and continue on with
life, except now you just havethis deeply embedded memory of,
you know, something really hard.
SPEAKER_02 (35:34):
And yes and no, because it was a very heavy
atmosphere.
As I said, the town had 5,000Jews before the war.
I mean, maybe 4,900.
I mean, approximately 5,000.
And when the war was over, therewere a who survived, period.
(35:59):
4,000 were killed.
And it was unbelievable.
These 1,000 who came back reallygot into mourning and crying and
heavy atmosphere.
And when there were Jewishholidays, they were in the
(36:19):
synagogue.
You just heard them weeping andcrying.
It wasn't funny.
But But the local people whowere not Jewish also went
through hell during the war.
You know, it was difficult.
Many lost their fathers in thewar.
(36:39):
Many had been displaced, had tomove from other places.
And it was like there was a lotof shortages, you know, like you
couldn't get a comb to comb yourhair.
SPEAKER_00 (36:56):
Right.
The synagogue, by the way, isthe second largest, I think, in
Europe, and it's now a historiclandmark.
It's a beautiful, you know, mywhole, by the way, you know, one
of the reasons I think the bookis important is not just my
mom's story.
It's also for me is just thateveryone in their family, they,
everyone's got a story and it'sworth like exploring your own
family because you'll be amazedat the things that you find out
(37:20):
about your own family that youjust didn't know.
But, you And my, you know, butthen going to visit, you know, I
just always pictured it, Iguess, because it's my American,
you know, superiority complex.
I thought that's going to belike just a dump of an Eastern
(37:40):
European town.
And it's a little like that.
But it's it's actually it'sactually really quaint and nice.
And it's like cafes.
It was nothing like what Iexpected.
It was really like interestingjust to see it after.
all those years and then see thespots where my mom was you know
like again it doesn't have to beour story my mom and I but
(38:04):
anyone's story like their wholefamily like I think you said
you're of Indian descent so togo back to India and see where
your relatives came from youknow you'll find things out that
you've never known or never knewabout prior so that was another
interesting aspect but I ampsyched to hear that you can get
into Amazon or Audible the bookis Surviving the Survivor so
(38:25):
please
SPEAKER_03 (38:26):
check it out For
SPEAKER_00 (38:26):
sure.
SPEAKER_02 (38:29):
She's going
SPEAKER_00 (38:37):
to tell me why I'm wrong.
She's going to tell me why I'mwrong.
(38:59):
psychiatrist, really smart guywith a really interesting take
on life.
And so the next book isSurviving the Psychiatrist, and
I'm trying to work on that rightnow.
So it's been a journey, but areally interesting one.
SPEAKER_02 (39:15):
What is your podcast?
What is your podcast?
SPEAKER_00 (39:19):
You're on it, Carm.
You're
SPEAKER_02 (39:21):
on it.
No, no, no.
Wait a minute.
It's similar.
My understanding was that youjust like to hear people's
Because everybody has a story.
Everybody has...
SPEAKER_00 (39:34):
But you focus on trauma?
Is that what you focus
SPEAKER_03 (39:36):
on?
Yeah, so they're like traumastories or stories about people
who've really gone through somekind of adversity.
They can be like mental healthrelated issues.
They can be, you know, aparticular experience that was
very traumatizing.
We did custody battle stories aswell.
We've done stories of murder.
They've done their jail time.
They've come out and they've gotsomething to...
They've turned their livesaround.
I had a bank robber.
(39:57):
He actually turned himself indid time and then you know sort
of you know is now living adifferent kind of lifestyle so
really it's just about I wouldsay everyday heroes you know in
a sense because every singleperson is going through
something they've all beenthrough some kind of life
lifehood trauma experience painit's all about the journey I
(40:19):
guess
SPEAKER_02 (40:19):
I totally agree with you that I have a master's
degree in social work so I wasdoing therapy with people and
and somebody would come in andsay to me oh you don't want to
hear my story my story is boringand I said I never ever heard a
(40:43):
boring story everybody hasunbelievable stories just to get
through life say you have atherapy session
SPEAKER_03 (40:52):
you've decided you know to take on a client you
don't know very much about thisclient this client comes in and
this person is an ex-Nazi?
What would you want to say tohim?
What would you
SPEAKER_00 (41:02):
have to say to him?
Interesting.
By the way, let me, before youanswer that, we've had, we did
an episode before.
Yeah, he can tell
SPEAKER_02 (41:08):
you this.
SPEAKER_00 (41:08):
We invited on the grandson of a Nazi.
You
SPEAKER_02 (41:11):
invited on.
SPEAKER_00 (41:12):
I did.
Grandson of a Nazi and thegranddaughter of a Holocaust
survivor.
We're going around the UKspeaking at synagogues and
karma's never one to mince wordsand it didn't end very well for,
believe it or not, the Holocaustsurvivor, Grand Daughter.
Daughter
SPEAKER_02 (41:31):
of
SPEAKER_00 (41:34):
a survivor daughter.
Daughter.
SPEAKER_02 (41:45):
They came in and the survivors, they are from
England, okay?
Both of them.
He left Germany and lives inEngland.
SPEAKER_04 (41:57):
And
SPEAKER_02 (41:59):
both of them, they are going around synagogues and
giving little talks.
And her main topic is that wehave to be, what was the term
she used?
We have to be a little kinder.
This is how she spoke.
Compassionate?
No.
(42:21):
We have to be a little kinder.
We have to be a little sweeter.
And then we will not have theHolocaust
SPEAKER_00 (42:35):
again.
And then
SPEAKER_02 (42:40):
she said, when we go to the synagogues, all the
survivors who are they get soloving and they give us a hug
and they give us a kiss.
And this was already at a timewhere anti-Semitism was not
(43:00):
going up like 100%, it was goingup three, 400%.
And I just got very furious andI said, why would you go and
preach to the choir?
You try to convince theconverted people already.
They are already converted.
What I said to this, I said, whydon't you work on the other,
(43:27):
recruit other Germans to go outand educate people about what's
happening and what happenedinstead of going and talking in
synagogues so you would feel
SPEAKER_00 (43:41):
better?
I'm laughing because I think youshe was a therapist also if I
remember and she was telling youin the interview that you have
like anger issues or things thatyou haven't dealt with she was
like trying to say it in a niceway my mom is like especially as
my mom gets older she's more andmore unfiltered and she was just
(44:03):
destroying this woman and it wasI
SPEAKER_02 (44:07):
tell you if an ex-Nazi would come and he would
say to me I spent the rest of mylife since the war, trying to
repent and trying to helppeople.
And I was in Africa building,digging wells and I was doing
(44:27):
this and I was doing that.
And he really repented for thething.
You know, I would not be sojudgmental as not to understand
and forgive the person.
But if they came back and said,you deserved it you know I
(44:48):
wouldn't be happy you know
SPEAKER_00 (44:52):
so I know people are listening right now but Carm
just leaned in so kind of arunning joke I have an Instagram
account Survivor2 and so anytimewe are FaceTiming Carm and I
here she's never in frame likeI'm looking at the top of her
ceiling or the foot or her footI
SPEAKER_02 (45:09):
tell
SPEAKER_00 (45:09):
you what I always post those on Instagram I always
post those on Instagram andeveryone knows what it is.
Everyone knows that it's meFaceTiming with Carm.
May
SPEAKER_02 (45:19):
I say something?
By
SPEAKER_00 (45:21):
the way, I gotta beg Carm to do these appearances.
We went on a whole book tourhere in the United States.
We went to Philly, Boston, NewYork.
We went up to Toronto.
We've done Tampa, Florida, this,that, and the other thing.
Every single time, Carm's like,I'm not doing it.
I'm not doing it.
And then she comes on this showand she doesn't stop talking.
(45:41):
You really hate it that much,Carm, right?
SPEAKER_03 (45:44):
Anyway, Anyway, maybe, maybe it's just, uh, this
podcast and me, you know, wejust bringing out something
really.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's what it is.
SPEAKER_00 (45:53):
That's what it
SPEAKER_03 (45:54):
is.
Final thoughts, final pluginsbefore we, before we end this
episode,
SPEAKER_00 (45:58):
uh, I'll let you have the final word because
you're the, uh, the matriarch ofthe show.
My final word is thank you somuch, uh, Jenica for having us
on, by the way, final word.
Uh, we're going to have to capthat like 17 minutes, but, um,
my final word is thank you somuch.
I hope to, get to visit Shanghaiand Asia, uh, in the very near
future.
(46:19):
And, uh, yeah, the podcast is atrue crime podcast.
We really do have the bestguests in all true crime.
We have criminal profilers,retired, uh, detectives, FBI
agents have become friends withchildren of serial killers
through this, uh, you know, uh,
SPEAKER_02 (46:36):
and one more thing is that important thing is that
we are also trying to supportthe victims.
SPEAKER_00 (46:44):
Yeah.
We're very victim-oriented.
And yeah, so it's found.
The main platform is on YouTube,but we're growing.
We're everywhere.
You listen to podcasts, Spotify.
SPEAKER_02 (46:55):
It's called Surviving the Survivor.
SPEAKER_00 (46:57):
Surviving the Survivor.
And we
SPEAKER_02 (46:59):
wish you luck.
Does
SPEAKER_00 (47:00):
it matter?
And the book, Karm, is availableanywhere books are sold.
And it is my mom's story aboutbeing a child Holocaust
survivor.
But more importantly, it is lifeadvice.
And it is an actual, brutalconversation, one of many that
Carmen and I had that werecorded.
And you will, if anything, youwill learn new curse words in
(47:22):
English from my beloved mother.
SPEAKER_03 (47:24):
Thank you so much.
I'll leave you to it.
SPEAKER_00 (47:27):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (47:28):
Take
SPEAKER_02 (47:29):
care and thanks for having us.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (47:35):
If you enjoyed the episode and would like to help
support the show, please followand subscribe.
You can rate and review yourfeedback on any of our platforms
listed in the description.
I'd like to recognize our guestswho are vulnerable and open to
share their life experienceswith us.
Thank you for showing us we'rehuman.
Also, a thank you to our teamwho worked so hard behind the
scenes to make it happen.
SPEAKER_04 (47:57):
The
SPEAKER_03 (48:00):
show would be nothing without you.
I'm Jenica, host and writer ofthe show, and you're listening
to...
multispective.
It was very close to the end of World War II.
My father couldn't believe thatthe Germans would do what people
were making, you know,concentration camps and gas.
My stepfather's pregnant wifeand son were gassed in
(00:23):
Auschwitz.
I remember snipers, like acouple was coming towards us on
the bridge and one of themdropped.
I think that prejudices are soingrained and prejudgments and
looking only at one side of theconflict or of the situation
(00:45):
rather than on both sides andtry to sort it out.
I don't think that will change.
SPEAKER_03 (00:57):
Joel Carmela, welcome to Multispective.
I am so, so excited to have youguys on air with me.
SPEAKER_00 (01:04):
Thank you for inviting us.
And you got a little taste of itoff camera, behind the scenes.
I apologize in advance for whatcould be a train wreck ahead.
This is my beautiful mother, butwe have a tendency to argue
SPEAKER_03 (01:20):
and cut each other off.
You guys are a dynamic duo.
I think I can see why yourpodcast is blown up.
It's just the relationshipbetween you guys, the dynamic.
I mean, the bickering, it'sfunny.
It's like fun to listen to.
SPEAKER_00 (01:34):
It is.
If you're not her son, but I'mher son and it's not always that
fun.
So my mom, I call her Carm.
I call her mom.
I call whatever, but it'sCarmela's her full name with a K
one L.
But she's known affectionatelyon the podcast as Carm.
The podcast is called survivingthe survivor.
(01:55):
And my mother is a childHolocaust survivor.
And that's how we came up.
So the name was actually sort oftongue in cheek.
But ironically, we do a podcast.
live daily true crime show onYouTube and everywhere you
listen to podcasts every singleday, 5 or 7 p.m.
Eastern Time in America.
And and we talk about the mosttopical cases going on around
(02:20):
the world, primarily here in theStates.
But so it started as just my momand I talking to random people
and no one cared.
And that reflected in ournumbers.
And then suddenly we got turnedon to a very big true crime
story here in the States.
in South Florida.
And then one thing led toanother.
And in about two years, we'vegot 133,000 subscribers and
(02:43):
we're getting about 2 millionplus views or listens a month.
So we've gotten really good.
And by the way, I'm theinterviewer and we've always got
three panelists on every show.
SPEAKER_03 (02:57):
That's amazing.
SPEAKER_02 (02:58):
And the slogan is that we have the best In true
crime.
In true crime.
Best guess.
SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
Everyone was very interested in that story.
And since then, we've done agazillion other big ones.
SPEAKER_03 (03:13):
Wow.
Have you guys ever felt likeyour life's in danger talking
about these kind of storiesbeing sometimes in the absolute
hub of it all that you could bea target?
SPEAKER_00 (03:24):
Karm?
No one would hurt innocent Karm.
No, no, I am
SPEAKER_02 (03:28):
paranoid, but even I don't worry about it because
during all the politicaltensions, which there were, you
know, between the Democrats andthe Republicans before the
election, we are totally out ofpolitics.
And, well, I tend to be prettydiplomatic, you know, and I
(03:52):
don't go into extremes.
SPEAKER_03 (03:54):
I love that you guys sort of like pivoted a little
bit and it sort of like reallyworked for you I know that Joel
you've worked in Fox before sodo you feel like bringing in
some of those skills from yourprevious job and in everything
that you do I mean that you'velearned how to be like a
presenter you know how to dointerviews you feel like that
comes naturally for you what arethe skills that you've picked up
(04:16):
in that
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
to a degree yeah I think everything I say this
frequently everything I've donein life is a complete accident
never I never really thought Iwas gonna be a journalist.
I found out about this thingcalled the NBC Page Program,
which is very well known in theStates, where it's basically you
do little assignments at NBCNews, and one thing led to
another.
I was one of the first producerhires at MSNBC News, and then I
(04:41):
ended my career 27 years lateras a correspondent for Fox News
out of Washington, D.C.
The most important thing in lifeis listening, that makes you the
best possible interviewer.
So you're taking everything injust a very good life skill.
And I definitely learned stuffand the advantage on YouTube, I
(05:04):
think, and there's a lot ofthere's there's actual technique
like you've got to come to ashow with a bit of a rundown, a
bit of an idea which way you'regoing to take it, follow up
questions, potentially, youknow, all these sorts of things.
And I take it seriously.
And I, you know, I'm very wellprepared, even though people in
the audience don't always agree.
And that's it.
So, yeah, I think the shortanswer is, is is yes.
(05:26):
In my opinion, the future iswhat you're doing, Jennica, and
what I'm doing, which is this.
Traditional media, at least herein the States, I mean, no one
really listens, watches anymore.
CNN, MSNBC, they have theirall-time lowest ratings right
now.
The wave of the future isJennica and multispective.
That is the future.
SPEAKER_03 (05:47):
Carmela, what about you?
What are your thoughts on this?
Do you agree with it?
SPEAKER_02 (05:51):
As I said before, I I majored, I went to the
University of Geneva inSwitzerland, and I have a
bachelor's degree in politicalscience.
Before that, I lived inYugoslavia, which at that time
was a communist country.
And before that, I had tosurvive during the Nazi era in
(06:15):
Europe, I'm sure.
So I am very experienced in notgetting in trouble, if possible.
One of the funny little storiesthat I have to tell you is that
once I love dogs, I don't likecats.
(06:35):
And once I said...
SPEAKER_00 (06:37):
You just alienated half the audience.
SPEAKER_02 (06:39):
Anyway, the point is that it became a controversial
issue.
What is this?
You discriminate against cats?
You know, you have to really becareful what you say and how you
say it in trouble.
And you really have to be verydiplomatic and careful not to
walk on other people's toes.
SPEAKER_03 (07:00):
If we had communication the way we do
today, if we had it back then,how different do you think the
Holocaust would have been?
Do you think it would have beenas vast, as crazy as it actually
was?
Considering
SPEAKER_02 (07:14):
how much hatred there is towards Jews today, I
don't think it would be thatdifferent.
SPEAKER_00 (07:21):
Hmm.
SPEAKER_02 (07:23):
I
SPEAKER_00 (07:23):
mean, it's a very dark
SPEAKER_02 (07:27):
view of the way things are.
You see, when the problem wasthat people were discriminating
against people of color, thenJews were declared as the white
(07:48):
man.
SPEAKER_04 (07:48):
Hmm.
You
SPEAKER_02 (07:51):
see the point?
And then now when it's okay tobe of any color, now we are the
colonists.
There is no way for us to win.
No way.
I don't think it would.
I know what you are thinking.
You are thinking, oh, everythingwould be visible and explained
(08:14):
and communication andtransparent.
And I think no.
I think that prejudices are soingrained and prejudgments and
looking only at one side of theconflict or of the situation
rather than on both sides andtry to sort it out.
(08:38):
I don't think that would change.
SPEAKER_03 (08:42):
Yeah, do you reckon it's also because, like, it's
just people need someone toscapegoat?
Like, people need to hate onsomeone or something, and it's
just easy.
SPEAKER_02 (08:52):
Even, you know, when I was still in college, I
remember this as if it's stillvery fresh in my mind.
In a sociology course, welearned how you have to have
always an out group, an in groupand an out group, the group you
will hate.
UNKNOWN (09:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (09:11):
Yeah, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_02 (09:12):
So, you know, religious people say we are the
chosen people.
Like, obviously, we are chosenfor the wrong things.
But in any case.
But the interesting thing isthat we don't hide who we are.
That's true.
We don't hide.
And people are very
SPEAKER_03 (09:33):
loving and caring.
Carmen, I do want to go intoyour story a little bit because,
you know, I think that that'ssomething that we need to talk
about.
And I think we are just havingless and less and less people
that are around to share thiskind of story or even have the
language, right?
The English language to be ableto share that story.
So I know that I was searchingfor, you know, Holocaust
(09:53):
survivor stories for a while.
It's very, very, I was verylucky to come into you guys.
And so, yeah, I mean, why don'tyou start by telling our
listeners a little bit aboutyour story?
Where does it all begin
SPEAKER_02 (10:06):
for you?
All right.
How many, because I learned, Ilearned to, like a bridge and
simplify to the point of where Ican do the whole Holocaust in
five minutes, in 10 minutes.
No, but all kidding aside, howmuch time do I have to?
Oh,
SPEAKER_03 (10:23):
you've got all the time in the world.
SPEAKER_00 (10:26):
What I was going to say is there's only, Jenica, in
the entire world, 265,000Holocaust survivors left, and
that number drops a lot everyday.
Half of those live in Israel.
The rest are spread out acrosslike 90 countries.
Yeah.
Anyway, Carm, you are the starof the show.
I'll lead her into this.
SPEAKER_02 (10:45):
By the way, this is a statistic from last summer.
100% it changed.
I personally know a few thatdied.
If you ever get hold of thatbook, Surviving the Survivor,
it's on Amazon.
The reason I say is because inthe back of the book, we have
(11:06):
some pictures and also the townwhere I I was born and Joel came
last summer before the book wasfinished.
He did an epilogue with hisfamily, the grandkids,
everybody.
We went to this town.
The town is called Subotica.
And you were in Hungary.
(11:27):
So it's right on the borderbetween Hungary and what is
today Serbia.
But in 1939, when I was born, itwas Yugoslavia and then
Yugoslavia Yugoslaviapolitically fell apart into six
different states.
I was born there in 39.
(11:49):
My father was an optometrist,and he had his own eyeglass
store on the main street.
This town had about 100,000people, but had a very...
SPEAKER_00 (12:06):
This is a 27-hour version of the story.
We're starting with the street,the description of the street.
SPEAKER_02 (12:13):
I have to set the stage for the...
You have to get the idea wherewe grew.
It was a sleep with a one mileradius center and 5,000 Jews in
this town of 100,000 and welived in the center.
Most of the Jews lived in thecenter and outside it was
(12:35):
agricultural and different,there were different ethnicities
in this town.
Everything went well for myfamily, my father, mother and
and my grandmother, grandfather,and my father went to work.
Then in 1942, the Nazis, theGerman Nazis were working with
(13:02):
the Hungarian Nazis, and theytook over this town and attached
it to Hungary.
This is the history of thistown.
Once it's attached to Serbia,once it's attached to Hungary.
During the war, there was nobombardments or war.
(13:22):
They just came in, marched in,and they said, this is now
Hungary.
But nothing happened.
And then a little bit later,they said all the Jews have to
go into the ghetto.
I don't know if you heard of theword ghetto.
For example, in Venice, the wordcomes from Italy, from Venice,
(13:43):
where the Jews had to live in acertain part of Venice and it
was maybe it's an Italian wordit means something in Italian
they live in the ghetto and sothey put us all in the ghetto
but it was very close to the endof World War II because World
(14:04):
War II went from 1939 to 1945and when when we went to the
ghetto it was a little bitlooser and less violent than
other places because they evenlet my father go out to his eye
(14:25):
store because the people neededeyeglasses so they let him go
into his eyeglass store and thenAt
SPEAKER_03 (14:38):
that point, though, did you guys have any idea that
there was something going onspecifically towards the Jews?
SPEAKER_02 (14:44):
I spoke about this with my mother a lot because I
was only four and a half, fourand a half, very precautious.
I was with old people, veryprecautious.
And anyway...
My mother said they all were inmajor denial, in major denial.
(15:05):
They heard rumors they couldn'tbelieve.
They could not believe.
And especially my father, who,before the Nazis really became
the Nazis in Germany, my fatherspent four years studying
optometry.
(15:27):
And In Germany.
And I have in the book, for somestrange reason, his diploma
survived.
You know, I have a picture ofhis diploma in my book.
In Joel's book.
SPEAKER_00 (15:44):
Freudian slip.
I
SPEAKER_04 (15:46):
love it.
In my book.
It's become my book now.
SPEAKER_00 (15:50):
She's the only person in human history that
didn't write or do anything yetsigns every single book and
every book so many.
I signed the
SPEAKER_02 (15:57):
book.
SPEAKER_00 (15:57):
I signed it.
This version of the story, I'mgoing to scoot us forward.
So long story short, her fatherdid not believe this was going
to happen.
Her mother, these are mygrandmother and grandfather,
which is weird because this isone generation apart, right?
And I feel like I'm so farremoved from it.
So my grandfather stays.
(16:19):
One day the Nazis come.
They grab him.
My mother and grandmother runout the back door.
There was a hole in the fence.
They take off.
No, no, no.
You are killing
SPEAKER_02 (16:27):
the story.
I
SPEAKER_00 (16:29):
have
SPEAKER_02 (16:30):
to say this one part.
My father couldn't believe thatthe Germans would do what people
were making, you know,concentration camps and gas.
And my father couldn't believethis because he lived there and
he said, I know the Germans.
They were a civilized people.
My mother wanted to go to thebig city of Budapest.
(16:53):
Were you in Budapest?
Yeah, that's where I was.
That was a big city compared tomy hometown.
My mother wanted to go there andhide and my father refused to
because he said the Germanswould have the worst case
scenario they would make uswork.
Anyway, now I'm going toaccelerate it.
They came to take us to thefreight trains to take us to the
(17:18):
concentration camp on June 18thand my father in that moment
when they came very early in themorning They were Hungarian
Nazis and they came in and theysaid, we want you to put all
your money and all your jewelryon the table.
We want you to make a littlesuitcase for yourself.
(17:40):
You are leaving.
At that moment, my father gotscared and he said to my mother,
do something.
Do something, Vera.
Vera was her name.
And my mother took my hand andthere was a little gate on the
in the back of, the houses hadlittle gardens next to them,
(18:02):
very small houses with gardens.
And she walked me out of theghetto while the soldiers were
collecting next door.
And took me, I won't go intodetails what happened, where we
went.
We ended up at an eye doctor, aChristian eye doctor's house,
(18:25):
who my father had a businessconnection with him because they
referred to it.
And he told my father prior tothat that he would help us in
any way he
SPEAKER_04 (18:36):
could.
SPEAKER_02 (18:37):
And even though he knew that he would be hung or
shot or sent to a cancerconcentration camp, he opened
the door and let us in.
Wow.
SPEAKER_03 (18:48):
And that was a guy that basically saved you guys in
a sense.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (18:53):
he was one of the two major people who saved me
because my mother was, it was asmall center of town and
everybody, my mother was ablonde, natural blonde, not like
I.
SPEAKER_04 (19:07):
But
SPEAKER_02 (19:08):
she was a natural blonde and people in town knew
her.
She was a she happened to bepretty, like with a doll face,
pretty woman.
And people knew her, and she wasyoung, and she was horrified
that she would be recognized.
And so the doctor, Scherzer, hewas a benefactor of some nuns,
(19:35):
and he said, he will ask thesenuns if they will take me.
And and let my mother know.
He went over to, there were nophones, so he went over to the
nuns and told the truth to thenun superior, and the nun
(20:00):
superior said, even though sheknew the danger, she knew that
she would be in major, if notkilled, very close to it, and
she said she would take me, butI have to come over night.
So my mother and Dr.
Scherzer walked me over there.
They left me there.
And my mother took a train up toBudapest, which is only a two
(20:26):
and a half hour train trip, andleft me with these nuns who were
very nice to me.
And it was almost the end of thewar already in some parts of
Europe, like in Italy.
SPEAKER_04 (20:39):
And
SPEAKER_02 (20:40):
anyway, I was with these nuns for about six And my
mother started to really worryabout me and miss me very badly.
And she bribed the railroadworker who was related to the
assistant of my father in thestore, who lived in Budapest,
(21:03):
worked for the railroads.
And this guy brought me up toBudapest after all these months.
When I arrived, it's an irony oflife, you can Google it.
As I was arriving there at thesame week, maybe, if you Google
(21:25):
the siege of Budapest duringWorld War II, the Soviet Union,
ally of the United States, theywere trying to get the Nazis
out, the Germans and theHungarian Nazis out of Budapest,
and they started very badbombardments.
(21:49):
And they lasted about 49 days,these bombardments, and we had
to sleep in the basement and soon and so forth, and there was
no food, and it was not a happytime.
SPEAKER_04 (22:03):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (22:06):
let me fill in a couple of the gaps.
So her father, again, he didn'tthink this could happen, my
grandfather, so he stays, hegets taken Auschwitz obviously
the most notorious concentrationcamp and he had studied his
degree as my mom said in Germanyso he was an optometrist he
thought it would be a good ideato tell the Nazis he said look I
(22:28):
studied how to build or createor make lenses and glasses and
right away they put him in thedeath line and made whoever who
was with him
SPEAKER_02 (22:39):
my mother's father my mother's father So he's
sending it because they didn'tknow which lane goes where.
And he stepped over from theother lane and went with my, my
father into the gas chamber.
SPEAKER_00 (22:54):
Yeah.
Uh, so there
SPEAKER_02 (22:56):
were these witnesses from Subotica who told my mother
in the end of the war.
SPEAKER_00 (23:01):
And by the way, it's Sunday morning in Shanghai.
Everyone's loving the story.
Um, but as depressing as, as itis.
Um, so, um, then the other thingis, you know, like my, my
grandmother, uh, had like thiscrazy inner strength because she
was not always like this uhlater in life but she you know
she protected her and uhsomebody you know to when they
(23:25):
were in budapest my mom wouldpurposely say she when she was
she was converted uh in thiscatholic school so she would
purposely say like the ourfather and these other prayers
so no one would like
SPEAKER_02 (23:37):
what happened
SPEAKER_00 (23:38):
so they wouldn't know that they were jewish
basically and the thing that iwas going to say is there was no
food so So during thebombardments, horses would keel
over, get killed, and they wouldhave to run out and, you know,
chop off some meat off of a legof a horse.
And that's how they survived.
So some crazy stories.
Right.
Because it was
SPEAKER_02 (23:55):
still winter.
It was March and February,March, and it was still snowing.
And it was still like it was thehorses were refrigerated, you
SPEAKER_00 (24:07):
know, preserved.
Every animal person hates thatright now.
UNKNOWN (24:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:13):
What was some of the things that you saw during that
time yourself?
Was there anything that you willforever sort of carry with you?
SPEAKER_02 (24:33):
Well, one of the things that I remember, there
were snipers and there wasartillery and there were
bombardments.
So at night...
It was a big apartment building,long, but it wasn't very high,
but it was like five, six, notsix, five story high, but all
(24:57):
the people were permitted tobring down a bed, all the
tenants, one bed where fourpeople could sleep on one single
bed every night during thebombardments.
And my mother was hiding in thisapartment with my my
grandmother's sister and hercousin.
(25:19):
They were suspicious of her, theother tenants who always lived
in this house.
It wasn't uncommon to betray andtell the police that they were
Jewish.
So my mother was very afraid ofthat.
(25:41):
When I arrived, I knew exactlywho I was.
now five and a quarter or fiveand a half.
I was very precocious.
So I knew I was Jewish and Iwould kneel down next to my bed.
They were all beds in thisunfinished basement, one after
(26:03):
the other.
And at a very loud voice, Iwould say these Christian
prayers.
every night so that nobody wouldsuspect.
And I was kind of the unsungheroine of the family for this.
They mentioned it afterwards.
(26:24):
But it went on for about 50days.
There were many dead people.
And my mother was like, mymother was strange.
She insisted on taking me withher during the time when she was
She was looking for flour orlooking for food, going and
(26:46):
trying to get some food, and shewouldn't leave me behind.
And I remember snipers, like acouple was coming towards us on
the bridge, and one of themdropped.
(27:08):
You know, the...
It's
SPEAKER_00 (27:10):
the first time I've ever heard this story in my life
right now.
SPEAKER_02 (27:13):
Yeah, this is a story that my mother repeated to
me so that my memory is, that'sthe reason I don't tell it often
because it's a kind of a foggymemory.
But she, the weirdest thing isthat these were people from my
town that she recognized.
(27:35):
And then she told me anotherhorrendous story that stayed
with me more than anything Iexperienced, that my mother, who
was also a survivor, she said tome, she was going in, you
remember the tramways inBudapest?
And did you ever see those shoeson the shore?
(27:56):
Oh, yes,
SPEAKER_03 (27:57):
yes,
SPEAKER_02 (27:57):
yeah.
So my mother told me this storythat like, that really made me
sick.
There was a group of people thatthey were leading towards the
Danube to shoot them, the armedpeople.
And an athletic young man jumpedup on a tramway as it was
(28:24):
moving.
Wow.
But wait a minute.
And my mother saw it with herown eyes.
My mother wrote down all herexperiences when she was 84
years old.
She dictated them and she wrotethem down.
And she saw them jump up in thetramway and being pushed off the
(28:48):
tramway by the people in thetramway because they didn't want
to help him.
UNKNOWN (28:56):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (28:56):
My gosh.
So my grandmother remarried andmy mother's father was named
Ladislav.
They called him Latsy.
My grandmother remarried anotherguy with the same name,
Ladislav.
So he was also a Latsy.
My whole life, my mom spelled itL-A-T-Z-I.
So when my middle daughter wasborn, I took the Z-I, the Z-I,
and my middle daughter's name isZizi.
(29:18):
And then my mom, my mom doesn'thandle things like this well.
So she laughed at the name andsaid that I was actually a
C-I-C-I.
So now I've misnamed my daughteraccording to my mom.
And for some reason, my momthinks it's funny that I did
that, which isn't really thatfunny, Carm.
But I have to tell you
SPEAKER_02 (29:38):
something.
I have to tell you.
My stepfather's pregnant wifeand son were gassed in
Auschwitz.
SPEAKER_00 (29:51):
It's another uplifting part of the story.
SPEAKER_02 (29:53):
Well, she wanted to hear about it.
SPEAKER_00 (29:57):
She
SPEAKER_02 (29:59):
asked for it.
SPEAKER_03 (30:02):
Man, that's crazy, though.
Do you know of anyone actuallythat did survive Auschwitz?
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (30:09):
many people survived at that moment because it was
only like three, four monthsbefore liberation.
The Hungarian Jews were the lastones I have here in the building
where I live, Polish, fromorigin, Polish Jews.
(30:29):
They went through this hell forfour and a half years.
SPEAKER_00 (30:34):
My mom has two friends.
One is no longer with us, butone was like a legal, you know,
huge lawyer in Israel.
The other is a very well-knownarchitect.
And, you know, I interviewedthese people all the way back in
1999 before I ever actually didanything.
Right.
in the book, but her friend Ritawould hide, I think it was Rita,
(30:56):
there was Brewery and Rita, butone of them would hide at night
inside of a coffin.
It was crazy, some of thesestories.
That's where they would spendthe night.
Another one was inside a pigcarcass or something crazy.
So the stories are just unreal.
Well, I
SPEAKER_02 (31:12):
have a very good, close friend who lives in New
Jersey now, and she was She's myage, a year older, and she was
hidden in a pigsty in Poland for24 months.
(31:34):
On the top of the pigs, therewas a ladder, and they keep the
hay.
SPEAKER_04 (31:39):
That's
SPEAKER_02 (31:41):
where her mother and her were hiding.
And the righteous Gentile woman,a Christian woman, saved them.
SPEAKER_03 (31:52):
My gosh.
SPEAKER_02 (31:53):
Nobody who is alive could be saved without help.
SPEAKER_00 (31:58):
You've got Jenica speechless here.
No, no,
SPEAKER_02 (32:02):
no.
Listen, it's like hard tobelieve the level of atrocity.
Hard to believe.
It's hard to...
You know, I survived and by theway, you don't have to buy the
book.
Our book is on Audible.
If you go on Audible, it's Julesand my voice.
SPEAKER_00 (32:27):
I've really elevated your life and your
SPEAKER_02 (32:32):
golden years.
I know.
SPEAKER_03 (32:34):
I
SPEAKER_02 (32:34):
don't know how to convey my appreciation, Jules.
How can I express it better?
Because you never...
I don't think you hear me when Isay I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00 (32:48):
ACDC has a song.
It's called Money Talks.
SPEAKER_02 (32:51):
Oh, you want me to pay
SPEAKER_03 (32:52):
Money talks.
Just
SPEAKER_00 (33:10):
pay me money.
Thank me money.
physical remains, so they justwrote his name on my
great-grandfather's tombstone,which is in the middle of
nowhere in Serbia, where I'venever been, and so we went.
(33:32):
It was amazing.
It's next
SPEAKER_02 (33:33):
to the town.
SPEAKER_00 (33:33):
It's next to the town.
It's a beautiful city.
SPEAKER_02 (33:36):
Even Joe was amazed how many, you know, it was a
Jewish cemetery, and there werea lot of dead people there.
My father's parents had the goodluck of dying before
SPEAKER_04 (33:52):
They
SPEAKER_02 (33:52):
were taken away from natural causes.
So when my mother came back fromhiding in Budapest in the end of
the war, there was a little roomin the bottom of my
grandparents' tomb, and she puton my father's name that he was
(34:13):
killed in Auschwitz and that helived 34 years.
So the children, we have apicture in the book of that.
SPEAKER_03 (34:22):
Did you find it quite triggering going back
there?
SPEAKER_02 (34:26):
Well, don't forget, I was away for about a few
months, really, because most ofthe time I was at the nuns, but
I never left the nunnery, ever.
And then when the war was over,I went right back to my
hometown, and I have my highschool diploma from my hometown.
(34:50):
And I grew up with these peoplein my hometown.
I went to the 50th high schoolreunion one year, and I went a
few more times, and I still havepeople I know, people who I'm
friends with.
I still have my stepfather'sfamily.
(35:11):
There are relatives there.
I
SPEAKER_04 (35:13):
mean, it
SPEAKER_03 (35:16):
sounds like you picked up right where you kind
of left off.
It was like your life was onpause for a while.
It was a very traumatic pause,and then you kind of go right
back into it and continueeducation and continue on with
life, except now you just havethis deeply embedded memory of,
you know, something really hard.
SPEAKER_02 (35:34):
And yes and no, because it was a very heavy
atmosphere.
As I said, the town had 5,000Jews before the war.
I mean, maybe 4,900.
I mean, approximately 5,000.
And when the war was over, therewere a who survived, period.
(35:59):
4,000 were killed.
And it was unbelievable.
These 1,000 who came back reallygot into mourning and crying and
heavy atmosphere.
And when there were Jewishholidays, they were in the
(36:19):
synagogue.
You just heard them weeping andcrying.
It wasn't funny.
But But the local people whowere not Jewish also went
through hell during the war.
You know, it was difficult.
Many lost their fathers in thewar.
(36:39):
Many had been displaced, had tomove from other places.
And it was like there was a lotof shortages, you know, like you
couldn't get a comb to comb yourhair.
SPEAKER_00 (36:56):
Right.
The synagogue, by the way, isthe second largest, I think, in
Europe, and it's now a historiclandmark.
It's a beautiful, you know, mywhole, by the way, you know, one
of the reasons I think the bookis important is not just my
mom's story.
It's also for me is just thateveryone in their family, they,
everyone's got a story and it'sworth like exploring your own
family because you'll be amazedat the things that you find out
(37:20):
about your own family that youjust didn't know.
But, you And my, you know, butthen going to visit, you know, I
just always pictured it, Iguess, because it's my American,
you know, superiority complex.
I thought that's going to belike just a dump of an Eastern
(37:40):
European town.
And it's a little like that.
But it's it's actually it'sactually really quaint and nice.
And it's like cafes.
It was nothing like what Iexpected.
It was really like interestingjust to see it after.
all those years and then see thespots where my mom was you know
like again it doesn't have to beour story my mom and I but
(38:04):
anyone's story like their wholefamily like I think you said
you're of Indian descent so togo back to India and see where
your relatives came from youknow you'll find things out that
you've never known or never knewabout prior so that was another
interesting aspect but I ampsyched to hear that you can get
into Amazon or Audible the bookis Surviving the Survivor so
(38:25):
please
SPEAKER_03 (38:26):
check it out For
SPEAKER_00 (38:26):
sure.
SPEAKER_02 (38:29):
She's going
SPEAKER_00 (38:37):
to tell me why I'm wrong.
She's going to tell me why I'mwrong.
(38:59):
psychiatrist, really smart guywith a really interesting take
on life.
And so the next book isSurviving the Psychiatrist, and
I'm trying to work on that rightnow.
So it's been a journey, but areally interesting one.
SPEAKER_02 (39:15):
What is your podcast?
What is your podcast?
SPEAKER_00 (39:19):
You're on it, Carm.
You're
SPEAKER_02 (39:21):
on it.
No, no, no.
Wait a minute.
It's similar.
My understanding was that youjust like to hear people's
Because everybody has a story.
Everybody has...
SPEAKER_00 (39:34):
But you focus on trauma?
Is that what you focus
SPEAKER_03 (39:36):
on?
Yeah, so they're like traumastories or stories about people
who've really gone through somekind of adversity.
They can be like mental healthrelated issues.
They can be, you know, aparticular experience that was
very traumatizing.
We did custody battle stories aswell.
We've done stories of murder.
They've done their jail time.
They've come out and they've gotsomething to...
They've turned their livesaround.
I had a bank robber.
(39:57):
He actually turned himself indid time and then you know sort
of you know is now living adifferent kind of lifestyle so
really it's just about I wouldsay everyday heroes you know in
a sense because every singleperson is going through
something they've all beenthrough some kind of life
lifehood trauma experience painit's all about the journey I
(40:19):
guess
SPEAKER_02 (40:19):
I totally agree with you that I have a master's
degree in social work so I wasdoing therapy with people and
and somebody would come in andsay to me oh you don't want to
hear my story my story is boringand I said I never ever heard a
(40:43):
boring story everybody hasunbelievable stories just to get
through life say you have atherapy session
SPEAKER_03 (40:52):
you've decided you know to take on a client you
don't know very much about thisclient this client comes in and
this person is an ex-Nazi?
What would you want to say tohim?
What would you
SPEAKER_00 (41:02):
have to say to him?
Interesting.
By the way, let me, before youanswer that, we've had, we did
an episode before.
Yeah, he can tell
SPEAKER_02 (41:08):
you this.
SPEAKER_00 (41:08):
We invited on the grandson of a Nazi.
You
SPEAKER_02 (41:11):
invited on.
SPEAKER_00 (41:12):
I did.
Grandson of a Nazi and thegranddaughter of a Holocaust
survivor.
We're going around the UKspeaking at synagogues and
karma's never one to mince wordsand it didn't end very well for,
believe it or not, the Holocaustsurvivor, Grand Daughter.
Daughter
SPEAKER_02 (41:31):
of
SPEAKER_00 (41:34):
a survivor daughter.
Daughter.
SPEAKER_02 (41:45):
They came in and the survivors, they are from
England, okay?
Both of them.
He left Germany and lives inEngland.
SPEAKER_04 (41:57):
And
SPEAKER_02 (41:59):
both of them, they are going around synagogues and
giving little talks.
And her main topic is that wehave to be, what was the term
she used?
We have to be a little kinder.
This is how she spoke.
Compassionate?
No.
(42:21):
We have to be a little kinder.
We have to be a little sweeter.
And then we will not have theHolocaust
SPEAKER_00 (42:35):
again.
And then
SPEAKER_02 (42:40):
she said, when we go to the synagogues, all the
survivors who are they get soloving and they give us a hug
and they give us a kiss.
And this was already at a timewhere anti-Semitism was not
(43:00):
going up like 100%, it was goingup three, 400%.
And I just got very furious andI said, why would you go and
preach to the choir?
You try to convince theconverted people already.
They are already converted.
What I said to this, I said, whydon't you work on the other,
(43:27):
recruit other Germans to go outand educate people about what's
happening and what happenedinstead of going and talking in
synagogues so you would feel
SPEAKER_00 (43:41):
better?
I'm laughing because I think youshe was a therapist also if I
remember and she was telling youin the interview that you have
like anger issues or things thatyou haven't dealt with she was
like trying to say it in a niceway my mom is like especially as
my mom gets older she's more andmore unfiltered and she was just
(44:03):
destroying this woman and it wasI
SPEAKER_02 (44:07):
tell you if an ex-Nazi would come and he would
say to me I spent the rest of mylife since the war, trying to
repent and trying to helppeople.
And I was in Africa building,digging wells and I was doing
(44:27):
this and I was doing that.
And he really repented for thething.
You know, I would not be sojudgmental as not to understand
and forgive the person.
But if they came back and said,you deserved it you know I
(44:48):
wouldn't be happy you know
SPEAKER_00 (44:52):
so I know people are listening right now but Carm
just leaned in so kind of arunning joke I have an Instagram
account Survivor2 and so anytimewe are FaceTiming Carm and I
here she's never in frame likeI'm looking at the top of her
ceiling or the foot or her footI
SPEAKER_02 (45:09):
tell
SPEAKER_00 (45:09):
you what I always post those on Instagram I always
post those on Instagram andeveryone knows what it is.
Everyone knows that it's meFaceTiming with Carm.
May
SPEAKER_02 (45:19):
I say something?
By
SPEAKER_00 (45:21):
the way, I gotta beg Carm to do these appearances.
We went on a whole book tourhere in the United States.
We went to Philly, Boston, NewYork.
We went up to Toronto.
We've done Tampa, Florida, this,that, and the other thing.
Every single time, Carm's like,I'm not doing it.
I'm not doing it.
And then she comes on this showand she doesn't stop talking.
(45:41):
You really hate it that much,Carm, right?
SPEAKER_03 (45:44):
Anyway, Anyway, maybe, maybe it's just, uh, this
podcast and me, you know, wejust bringing out something
really.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's what it is.
SPEAKER_00 (45:53):
That's what it
SPEAKER_03 (45:54):
is.
Final thoughts, final pluginsbefore we, before we end this
episode,
SPEAKER_00 (45:58):
uh, I'll let you have the final word because
you're the, uh, the matriarch ofthe show.
My final word is thank you somuch, uh, Jenica for having us
on, by the way, final word.
Uh, we're going to have to capthat like 17 minutes, but, um,
my final word is thank you somuch.
I hope to, get to visit Shanghaiand Asia, uh, in the very near
future.
(46:19):
And, uh, yeah, the podcast is atrue crime podcast.
We really do have the bestguests in all true crime.
We have criminal profilers,retired, uh, detectives, FBI
agents have become friends withchildren of serial killers
through this, uh, you know, uh,
SPEAKER_02 (46:36):
and one more thing is that important thing is that
we are also trying to supportthe victims.
SPEAKER_00 (46:44):
Yeah.
We're very victim-oriented.
And yeah, so it's found.
The main platform is on YouTube,but we're growing.
We're everywhere.
You listen to podcasts, Spotify.
SPEAKER_02 (46:55):
It's called Surviving the Survivor.
SPEAKER_00 (46:57):
Surviving the Survivor.
And we
SPEAKER_02 (46:59):
wish you luck.
Does
SPEAKER_00 (47:00):
it matter?
And the book, Karm, is availableanywhere books are sold.
And it is my mom's story aboutbeing a child Holocaust
survivor.
But more importantly, it is lifeadvice.
And it is an actual, brutalconversation, one of many that
Carmen and I had that werecorded.
And you will, if anything, youwill learn new curse words in
(47:22):
English from my beloved mother.
SPEAKER_03 (47:24):
Thank you so much.
I'll leave you to it.
SPEAKER_00 (47:27):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (47:28):
Take
SPEAKER_02 (47:29):
care and thanks for having us.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (47:35):
If you enjoyed the episode and would like to help
support the show, please followand subscribe.
You can rate and review yourfeedback on any of our platforms
listed in the description.
I'd like to recognize our guestswho are vulnerable and open to
share their life experienceswith us.
Thank you for showing us we'rehuman.
Also, a thank you to our teamwho worked so hard behind the
scenes to make it happen.
SPEAKER_04 (47:57):
The
SPEAKER_03 (48:00):
show would be nothing without you.
I'm Jenica, host and writer ofthe show, and you're listening
to...
multispective.
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