March 15, 2025 • 63 mins
What’s it like growing up in the Mormon Church, only to be excommunicated for following your heart? In this powerful episode of Multispective, Susie opens up about her life inside the LDS Church, the strict expectations she followed and the deep personal conflict that led to her excommunication after an affair.
She shares the emotional toll of losing her community, the challenges of rebuilding her identity, and the lessons she’s learned about faith, self-worth, and finding freedom outside the Church.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
When I married my husband, what made our marriage
strong, the only thing we had incommon was the church.
We were both very faithful andbelieved it wholeheartedly.
In the temple, women covenant toour husbands, and our husbands
covenant to God.
I wasn't even worthy enough tocovenant to God.
(00:21):
I had to covenant to my husbandand obey him.
And after three years oftraining with him, and then
before you know it, like, he'ssexy.
You know, he looks good.
And one thing leads to another.
And I find myself in thebishop's office with so much
shame and guilt confessing.
I couldn't go to my daughter'swedding.
I wasn't permitted into thetemple to see her get married.
(00:44):
I did not realize it was a cult.
I just began to start thinking,is this how God would treat me?
SPEAKER_00 (00:57):
Suzy.
I am so excited to
SPEAKER_02 (01:05):
have
SPEAKER_00 (01:07):
you on air with us.
How are you doing today?
(01:28):
at this point, you'll findpeople practicing this kind of
all over the world.
And some may confuse this forreligion.
Some may argue that, hey, thisis not a cult.
How can we label it this?
So I'm really, really excited toshare this on air and sort of
like raise awareness on sort ofthe actual insides of what is
(01:50):
actually happening within this.
So, you know, you yourself wereraised in it.
So, you know, hearing itfirsthand, I think would be
really, really powerful for alist So why don't you start off
just telling us a little bitabout where your story
SPEAKER_02 (02:13):
begins.
language and translated it intoEnglish.
(02:34):
And the religion went on foryears, and my forefathers were
pioneers that supported andsacrificed their lives for the
church in the trek to Salt LakeCity.
So, my great-grandfather,Stillman Pond, had eight
children and a wife that heburied on the way to the trek
west to Salt Lake City.
(02:54):
So, when I speak of Mormonismbeing at my very roots.
It really is.
And I was born and raised intoit, and my parents were very,
very faithful, very committed.
And I married in the temple,just as I was told to do, and
raised my six children Mormon.
(03:16):
And it wasn't until probablyaround the age of 42, 43, that I
began allowing myself for theRight.
SPEAKER_00 (03:31):
Wow.
So, I mean, it sounds like, butthere is like a really, really
strong history of here.
Do you know, like, the numbersof, like, how big this is today?
The
SPEAKER_02 (03:43):
church?
I could look it up really quick.
I could look it up.
I've got my iPad here.
But millions.
Millions.
SPEAKER_00 (03:51):
Yeah, that's the thing.
I'd be curious about thisbecause, I mean, I myself have
met people here who havepracticed this or believe in
this.
And, you know, Maybe not soreligiously practicing it as a
knocking on doors and trying toconvert, but really, really do
believe very strongly in thefaith, in the beliefs of it.
(04:11):
So I'd be curious to sort ofknow, or like how many churches
there are and how widespread isit?
How far outside of the U.S.
have they also sort of expandedto?
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (04:25):
Well, I know I have a son who served his mission in
a So of course, when the boys inthe church are 19, they're sent
all over the world to spread thegospel.
(04:58):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (04:59):
imagine
SPEAKER_02 (05:03):
that.
(05:28):
I mean, have you seen the Mormontemples?
They're, yeah, like extravagant.
Extravagant.
And you can only imagine.
I mean, it costs billions ofdollars to build these temples.
But right now, I mean, I wouldjust be really curious to know
how many because they arebuilding so many.
(05:48):
And the interesting thing aboutthe temples, do you know what
goes on in the temples?
Not exactly, no.
Okay, so marriages aresolemnized is what they're
called.
It's That is the only ordinancedone for you in your life, for
you, yourself.
Every time that you go back tothe temple, you are doing temple
(06:10):
work in proxy for someone who isdead, who used to live on the
earth.
So, the purpose of that is toensure that every person who has
ever lived on this earthreceives the opportunity to
accept the Church of JesusChrist of Latter-day Saints.
as truth, that every knee shallbow, every tongue confess that
(06:35):
Jesus is the Christ, and thatthey will be given the
opportunity to join the church.
And so, it's purported that evenHitler's temple work has been
done.
So, I mean, when I was a younggirl, when I was 12, I started
going to the temple, and wewould do the ordinance of
(06:55):
baptism for the dead in thetemple.
So, we would do it for and inbehalf of someone who had
previously died.
So, that's why it was calledBaptisms for the Dead.
But everything we do in thetemple is for someone who is no
longer living, so that they havethe opportunity in the realm
that they're in, which we callthe, you know, the hereafter or
(07:16):
before the judgment, whereeveryone waits so that they can
accept the gospel.
So, yeah, because the churchand, you know, the interesting
thing is that we were told wewere Mormon, right?
So, our prophets told us we wereMormon.
We used to sing songs as littlekids about how excited we were
(07:38):
to be Mormon, and now the newprophet of the church has
decided that he doesn't like thename Mormonism, and he wants
people to be called a member ofthe Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints.
So, it's really funny.
You'll see this online where themembers of the church get really
angry for being called Mormon.
(08:00):
They have been told it's anickname and that it's not a
nice nickname.
But my generation, we weretaught that we were Mormon and
that we were happy to be Mormonand we should be proud of it.
And so that's one of the thingsthat has changed.
SPEAKER_00 (08:13):
And I wonder whether that's because like the name
Mormonism has become slightlytainted and the more people are
talking about it and people arecoming out.
So they just rebrand it, callthe LDS and just, you Did they
actually make any internalchanges as well in terms of what
they expect or what they believeor what, you know?
SPEAKER_02 (08:35):
Yeah, and that's a great question because for the
first 42 years of my life, wewere always told the church will
never change.
It is the same yesterday, today,and forever.
And if you expect the church tochange, do not hold out for it
because it will not.
And so, for instance, here's aperfect example of how it is
changing.
We were expected when we went tothe temple that we would wear
(08:59):
sacred underwear.
And this underwear covered likefrom here, like this, I wouldn't
have been able to wear this whenI was Mormon.
I would have had to like havethat covered.
But it covered here and all theway down covering cleavage and
it went down to our knees and wehad to wear that under our
clothes.
(09:19):
And we were told that it wasnever going to change.
And the funny thing is, guesswhat they've just recently done
in the last six months?
Now you can have porn shoulders.
(09:58):
Right.
Wow.
(10:28):
and secret chants that we weretaught, and we were told never
to divulge this to anyone.
If we talked to anyone aboutthis, we would be cast out.
And we were also given a newname.
So my new name, I was told if Iever uttered it, I would be cast
out.
(10:48):
And so I knew my name, and myhusband could know my name, but
I was not allowed to know hisname.
Because in the temple, womencovenant to God.
I mean, excuse me, we covenantedto our husbands and our husbands
covenanted to God.
So I didn't even, I wasn't evenworthy enough being completely
worthy to covenant to God.
(11:09):
I had to covenant
SPEAKER_00 (11:10):
to my husband and obey him.
And I'm guessing that that sortof like applied in every aspect,
in every decision-making power,in every kind of like owning a
property or owning of anythinghad to be through your husband,
right?
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (11:24):
Yeah.
And he always got the final sayno matter what.
He was considered the priesthoodleader of the home and that we
should never argue with thepriesthood, that those were
direct keys from God.
And we as women were not allowedto have the priesthood, but we
were teased and told, you canhold the priesthood by hugging
him, by having him.
(11:46):
You can hold the priesthood, butyou can't hold the priesthood.
Yeah.
And, you know, when women wouldtalk about how unfair it seemed,
we were very much chastised andwe were not Never allowed or
permitted to question becausethat was considered apostasy.
You were considered an apostateif you ever questioned anything.
(12:07):
And so, you learned that it wasnot righteous.
It didn't look good.
It was sinful to question.
And as the internet came aboutand people started learning
about the history, we were nevertaught that Joseph Smith, the
founder of the church, was apolygamist.
We didn't know that.
We knew that He taught polygamylater on, but we didn't know he
(12:31):
himself was married to 40 women,some of them being under the age
of 14, even 12.
And some were mothers anddaughters, this guy.
And the church would not, theyabsolutely would not confirm
that.
They just said that isconsidered anti-Mormon
literature.
Don't listen to it.
(12:53):
And they just assumed we'd neverreally find out.
But now they're having toexplain it and it's interesting
watching them explain it awaybecause they can't hide from it
but they never told us I
SPEAKER_00 (13:07):
have so many questions regarding what we've
just talked about I want to goback first to the idea of
secrecy having a secret namehaving a secret handshake what
do you think is the idea behindthat why do you think because
I'm trying to think like a lotof cults they do have a lot of
secrets that they keep withinand it's sort of like this is a
privilege that you get to havebeing in do you think that this
(13:28):
is something that increasesloyalty or increases this bond
between member and church?
What's the idea behind secrets?
So,
SPEAKER_02 (13:36):
the idea behind it is only worthy members can go to
the temple.
Not every member, not everyMormon can go to the temple.
You have to go through twointerviews to be considered
worthy.
Now, with that being said, we'retold if we do not go to the
temple, we can't be with ourfamilies forever.
We will not be able to be withour families after death.
(13:57):
So, there's this pressure thatwe have to be temple worthy in
order to have the blessings ofexaltation.
And it's just, you know, it'smind-blowing that you have to go
through two priesthood holders,the bishop and the state
president, who ask you a slew ofquestions, including things
(14:17):
like, do you pay 10% to thechurch?
If you don't pay 10% to thechurch for tithing, you are not
temple worthy.
You are not allowed to go.
But these secret handshakes andall of that Nobody tells you
you're going to do it before youget there.
And going into it as a20-year-old girl, I was shocked.
I felt uncomfortable.
(14:37):
I felt it was very voodoo-y,like cult-y.
And I remember thinking, this iswhat we do.
This is the temple that theywere telling me about, just was
spiritual and wonderful andamazing.
And I have to wear white robes.
And that goes deeper, too,because because Yeah.
(15:27):
wrong with me?
You know, why do I think this isweird?
I guess this is what we do.
My mom and dad have been doingthis forever.
And I guess this is what we haveto do to have eternal life.
And yeah, but with the secrethandshakes and the new name, I
think that the purpose of thatis to, in a way, change your
identity, change you, taking youfrom who you are to who they
(15:54):
want you to be.
My name, by the way, and I don'tthink Right.
And
SPEAKER_00 (16:01):
that makes sense to strip you away from who you are.
SPEAKER_02 (16:27):
recommend, they can't go to your wedding.
They can't.
Like, I couldn't go to mydaughter's wedding.
I wasn't permitted into thetemple to see her get married
because I didn't have a templerecommend.
I had left the church.
So, no non-members are permittedin for even the living
ordinances of weddings.
(16:47):
And so, people want to attendtheir child's wedding, and so
they will do all the things thatthey have to so that they're
able to be there.
And they don't want everybodyaround them to know why they
don't have a temple recommend.
They're going to think I'm badif they don't see me at the
wedding.
If I can't go to my own child'swedding, I'm going to be bad.
So it's like this socialpressure that's attached to it.
SPEAKER_00 (17:10):
Can you walk me through your relationship with
your husband, being taught thatyour husband was the step
towards God?
How did that sort of impact yourrelationship with your husband?
SPEAKER_02 (17:24):
I was married for 22 years.
I I'm no longer married to him,but...
I went along with it.
It made sense to me because ofthe way I was raised.
In my home, my dad ruled.
Whatever my dad said went, andwe were terrified of the guy,
actually.
But when I married my husband, Ithink that what made our
(17:49):
marriage strong, the only thingwe had in common was the church.
We were both very faithful andbelieved it wholeheartedly, and
so that was the basis of thestrength of our relationship.
And on Honestly, that was finefor me.
I went along for years wherewhatever he said, I went along
with.
I can honestly say about sixyears into it, I started really
(18:12):
struggling with the dynamics ofit and went to counseling and
started learning to have alittle, little bit of my own
voice.
But at the end of the day, Ialways knew what he said went.
And About six years in, Istarted struggling with it, and
(18:35):
I would fight against it andremind myself I needed to be
faithful.
I don't agree with him.
I have to do what I'm told inthe sense like, you know, an
example is his mom always hadthe holidays at her house, and I
was never permitted to have aholiday with my children at my
house.
We went to her house.
There was no question.
(18:55):
If I wanted to just make my ownmeal for the kids and have my
own traditions with them, no.
No, we're going to my mom's.
And after so many years, itreally started to affect me.
And I would say it was aroundthe time that our fourth child
was born and she passed away waswhen I started to kind of rebel
against him a little bit.
SPEAKER_00 (19:17):
Can you tell me a little bit more about the roles
within?
So from what I know, men wererequired to go out, travel
around, preach, try to getpeople to join.
What was it like for women, whatwere you required to do on a
day-to-day basis?
SPEAKER_02 (19:35):
So, we were raised to be homemakers.
You know, that we were raisedthat we would be—our most
important role in life was to bea mother, to have children.
That was our whole identity.
There were two church schools.
There was Brigham YoungUniversity, and there was Ricks
College.
And we could go, but most peopleknew we probably wouldn't
(19:58):
graduate.
We It wasn't expected for us tohave a career.
(20:32):
anything outside of that, Imean, it was pretty shameful.
I had ideas when I was youngerof things I wanted to do.
And I was right away kind ofkicked in the pants by my
parents, like, you're not doingthat.
That's not what a member of thechurch does.
We just don't do that.
And I wanted to be a journalist.
And nope, you're not doing that.
SPEAKER_00 (20:53):
And would you say that that was like the case for
basically everyone around you?
Or did you ever come across orsee any woman out there that
fought for their rights andactually managed No, I
SPEAKER_02 (21:03):
didn't.
Everyone in church was, thewomen were very submissive.
It was very rare back then.
I think it is different now.
I think things are changing nowfor sure.
So a lot of younger people likein their 20s or 30s would watch
this or they would look at meand say, she's full of crap.
That's not taught.
(21:25):
But that is what we were taught.
And it's well documented.
And we weren't We were expectedto have children.
We were also told we should notcurtail the number of children
that we had, meaning have asmany as you can, multiply and
replenish the earth.
So people would have a tendencyto judge one another.
Like if somebody decided theyonly wanted one or two kids,
(21:49):
selfish.
You know, they just get labeledselfish.
And we were expected to havelarge families.
And we were even counseled bythe prophet that we should not
wait to have children.
Even if we were in school, evenif we couldn't afford to, we
should not delay or we shouldnot delay the start of our
(22:09):
families.
And so we were told like rightafter we got married, we should
start to have children.
And I look at my daughter now.
She's been married nine years,no children, not interested.
And I love it.
I'm like, how cool is that?
How
SPEAKER_01 (22:23):
amazing would
SPEAKER_02 (22:23):
that be to like just plan your life out the way
SPEAKER_01 (22:26):
you wanted it
SPEAKER_02 (22:28):
and make decisions for yourself like that?
How amazing.
SPEAKER_01 (22:31):
But
SPEAKER_02 (22:32):
yeah, I was not given those choices.
And sometimes that's the hardestpart of it is to look back at
that and think, okay, You know,I was given those choices.
I was in so deep that I didn'tunderstand they were choices.
And there was a lot ofcriticism, if you did not live
(22:54):
this certain way.
And,
SPEAKER_00 (22:57):
yeah.
What were some of the ways,though, that they were keeping
people in check, in track,making sure that people were not
deviating from, you know, yeah.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (23:07):
that's a great question, too.
We were required to have aninterview you with the bishop
once a year.
So it was called tithingsettlement.
It's done at the end of theyear.
He brings in families, and helooks over what you've
contributed for tithing, and heasks you if it's an honest
tithe.
And sometimes they will questionyou and say, oh, you paid$8,000
(23:29):
this year.
You only made$80,000, you know,or whatever it is.
So sometimes you'll bequestioned on that.
So they have tithing settlementat the end of the year, and then
again, in order to be able to goto the temple, you have to go
through a really rigid interviewwith your bishop and the state
(23:50):
president, and that has to bedone once a year.
So that temple recommend is onlygood for one year.
So every year, you have to comebefore him, and he asks you
questions like, do you pay 10%?
Do you keep the word of wisdom,which means no smoking, no
drinking?
The other one is, do you keepthe law of chastity so that's a
(24:13):
big one because you're notallowed to have you're not
supposed to have sex before yougo to the temple you're not
supposed to do anything naughtylike that and so it gives you an
opportunity for the bishop toreally question and they didn't
just stop with that sometimesthey would drill you like if you
said yeah I've had a little bitof a problem with this or that
in my day masturbation orpornography those were
(24:37):
considered not keeping the lawof chastity so if you were to be
honest and tell them, you know,I'm doing this or I'm doing
that, you wouldn't get yourtemple recommend.
And you couldn't take thesacrament.
So, then everybody around youcan see that you're not taking
the sacrament, and they look,and they notice, and they wonder
why, and rumors start.
(24:58):
You know, but yeah, once a year,you've got that interview with
the bishop that you've got to goto and the state president, and
you are asked the bazillionreally, really personal,
intimate questions Right.
Because in a sense, what ends uphappening is just people
SPEAKER_00 (25:41):
that are rebelling, that are not actually following
the faith.
They're just doing actually whatthey want.
Man, that's really crazy.
I mean, to think that this wasyour life, right?
This is something that youreally lived.
How do you contend now with theidea of what are people going to
think?
(26:01):
Do you feel like you've sort ofsomewhat overcome that hurdle of
acting based on other people'sthoughts?
Or that still matters to you alot?
Well,
SPEAKER_02 (26:11):
it's been a long time since I've left the church
now.
We're going on 13 years.
But I would say in the verybeginning, it was one of the
most challenging things I'veever done.
It was one of the most lonelythings.
And I had been excommunicatedfrom the church because I
believe in honesty.
(26:32):
And I had made some mistakes inmy marriage when it was failing,
and the marriage had been notgood for a long time.
And I had never been with anyoneelse in my life except my
husband.
I did everything right.
And when I realized that, youknow, my husband's just not that
(26:52):
into me, I think I fantasizedand always dreamed about what it
would be like to be with someonewho cared about me and just
absolutely, you know, adored me.
And I didn't plan to have anaffair.
I just decided that I was goingto start bodybuilding and
(27:12):
focusing on me since I couldn'treally control the fact that my
husband really wasn't that intome.
So that was the route that Itook.
And the really unfortunate partwas I did not realize how
vulnerable I was.
I never would have wanted tocheat on my husband.
It's never a plan I would make.
But I was very vulnerable.
And I purposely chose a trainerthat I was not attracted to that
(27:35):
was my same height.
He kind of looked like a monkeya little bit because of all the
anabolics.
Oh, yeah, yeah, this guy's safe.
You know, he's safe.
And after three years oftraining with him, he became
like my best friend.
He was like my pal.
And then before you know it,like, he's sexy.
(27:57):
You know, he looks good.
And then, you know, the firsttime I kissed him, I thought,
oh, what am I doing?
Like, I am breaking the rules.
I'm going to get in trouble.
And one thing leads to another.
And I find myself in thebishop's office with so much
shame and guilt confessingbecause I couldn't live with
myself.
I felt, I mean, an affair isnever a good thing anyway,
(28:21):
whether you're in the church orout of the church.
It's never honest.
But I had always lived an honestlife, and it really affected me.
And I wanted to repent of mysins, even though I was really
drawn to my sins I was like okaythis is something I want to do
but I'm not supposed to so I'mgonna I've got to confess and I
did go in and tell my bishop andthat was hellacious to say
SPEAKER_00 (28:47):
the least right tell me walk me through what happened
SPEAKER_02 (28:51):
so when um when I told the bishop it had been
going on for a couple of monthsand I told my my trainer you
know I can't do this anymore I'mgonna tell my husband I'm gonna
have to tell tell confess.
And the first thing that I did,I mean, it was so hard to even
utter what I had done becauseall I could think of was hell,
(29:11):
fire, brimstone, never seeing mychildren again, never seeing my
daughter who had passed away.
And that was the thing thatreally, I wanted to see her
again.
I wanted to be with my children.
I actually really believed it.
I think so many members of thechurch don't actually believe it
as truth, but I believed it tomy core, and I knew what I was
(29:33):
doing was wrong, and I wanted tomake it right.
And so when I went into him, Ihad gone to a counselor first,
and the counselor told me, shesaid, she was Mormon, and she
said, you know, you're going tohave to tell your husband.
And I said, I know.
And she said, because you arecovenant, you make your
(29:54):
covenants to him.
And she said that she workedwith men who had cheated on
their wives, and they didn'thave to confess Right.
(30:32):
My husband wanted me to tell noone and he wanted us to work on
it.
And he said he would doeverything that he could.
I mean, after the initial losinghis mind and like, I'm going to,
but he didn't want a divorce.
He wanted to stay married.
And I, I really didn't want tostay married.
I didn't want to be with my,with my trainer, but I, the
(30:56):
marriage had been dead for solong.
So I gave it another, we gave itanother run and I found myself a
year later in the same placewith someone else.
And I said to myself, is being acheater, is being a cheater,
once you're a cheater, you'realways a cheater?
Because I don't want to be that.
Why am I doing this?
I'm doing this because mymarriage is miserable.
(31:17):
I need to get out of it.
So the first time I wasdisfellowshipped by the church,
which means that I could stillkeep my blessings, but I was
disfellowshipped because myhusband wanted to stay married
to me.
So it depended upon what hewanted done.
If If he wanted meexcommunicated, I would have
been gone.
Disfellowshipped, I was justlike on probation.
SPEAKER_01 (31:39):
Well,
SPEAKER_02 (31:39):
the second time I did it, the second time I did
it, they were done with me.
And I filed for divorce and lefthim.
I wasn't going to let him talk.
I don't even know why he wantedme to stay there.
Why would you want to be withsomebody who cheated on you?
But he just did not want hismarriage broken up because of
the blessings, the blessingsthat he had because of me.
(32:02):
I was his golden ticket to thecelestial kingdom.
And that's why there's a lot ofbabysitting between couples when
you're in the church becauseyou're their golden ticket.
They can't get to heaven withoutyou.
And so rather than being apartner, you babysit each other.
And yeah, it was after that thateverybody in the community knew
(32:25):
I'd been excommunicated.
It was a really big deal to gothrough an excommunication.
And you sit before, in my case,four men.
who ask you detailed questionsabout which orifice it went in,
how many times, yeah, how manytimes you've had sex with how
many people.
Did you like it?
(32:46):
Very graphic questions.
And I answered every one of themhonestly.
And I was told that the HolyGhost would no longer be with me
and the Holy Ghost is what theytell you is the still small
voice.
It's really your intuition, butthey tell you that it's a And I
(33:06):
walked out of there and Iremember thinking, I still have
the Holy Ghost.
What the hell?
And I thought, oh, wait, that'sme.
I'm the Holy Ghost.
I'm the way.
And it was just like, I didn'tknow how I was going to survive
it because it affected mychildren.
Everybody knew that they had aterrible mother, that their
(33:28):
mother was breaking up theirfamily.
And I think my oldest at thetime was seven.
And my youngest was probably sixor seven.
So everyone at school wastalking about it because we had
a large Mormon community andeveryone within the community
because everybody knows theMormons there.
SPEAKER_00 (33:48):
Right.
Can you walk me through how wasyour relationship with your kids
after that then?
It
SPEAKER_02 (33:54):
was hard.
It was really hard.
They were very, very angry withme.
And I remember having to tellmyself they're angry with me for
good reason.
They have every reason to beangry with me.
And it's unfortunate that theyhave to know the details of our
marriage and the demise of ourmarriage.
It's very unfortunate.
(34:15):
But I need to own it.
I need to bravely own it andshow them that we all make
mistakes.
This is a huge one.
I had to find it within myselfto not hate myself because in my
religion, I was always taughtAnd I had to relearn what the
(34:38):
nature of God really is becauseI thought there's not a God that
would do to me what those mendid to me.
He's not like that.
Right.
(35:02):
It will be okay.
You will survive.
And I started to believe inmyself.
And that's what my trainertaught me.
He was the first person in mylife to believe in me.
And so I started learning thosepositive things.
Even though he was way far outof my life, he really affected
the way I learned to speak tomyself and the way that I
learned to survive what I wasgoing through.
(35:24):
And I also realized...
I started realizing the churchwasn't true.
I just thought it justwouldn't—they wouldn't do this
to somebody.
They wouldn't ostracizesomebody.
I mean, it's like they're scaredof me.
It's like they are so terrifiedthat I'm going to be a negative
influence on the other women ofthe church, and they're
(35:48):
terrified of me.
You know, and that's what itboils down to.
And I started seeing it for whatit was, and I started thinking,
I'm not a bad person.
I'm a person that made a reallybad mistake.
How am I going to figure out inmy life how I'm not going to
make that mistake ever again?
And I thought, well, I'll neverbe in a loveless relationship.
SPEAKER_00 (36:09):
I'll walk
SPEAKER_02 (36:09):
away before it becomes loveless, because now I
know I can.
But it's, yeah, it's scary.
I've never been on my own mywhole life.
SPEAKER_00 (36:17):
Yeah.
Yeah, I was going to just saythis, because I think you're the
first episode that I've donewhere an individual has left and
been excommunicated.
communicated from a cult withouthaving that awareness of like,
hey, I'm in a cult.
The episodes that I've donepreviously, they've been somehow
(36:38):
made aware of the fact that thisis a cult that they're in and
then chosen to exit with thatknowledge.
Yes, that's a very interestingtake.
Right.
So that's kind of what I wantedto know.
How did it start to sort of dawnon you that actually what was
happening inside was not true?
was a cult was it from readingbooks about it reading you know
(37:02):
other testimonials you knowreviews of people honest stories
listening to people's stories orwas it just sort of realizing
that so much of what they'vesaid is not true you still have
these wonders that you know thatthey've kind of been holding
over you i'm so glad
SPEAKER_02 (37:17):
this question is phenomenal this is like this is
such this is such an importantlike i am so impressed with you
that like you're able that youBecause I've never been asked
this question.
I've been asked most questionsmany times.
This is a very good question.
I think, yeah, I did not realizeit was a cult.
(37:40):
I just began to start thinking,is this how God would treat me?
You know, for starters.
And then about, and I was goingthrough my divorce and
everything, and my husbandwasn't paying me child support.
And he, and that is one of thequestions.
You have to be paying childsupport in order to go to the
temple.
Well, he wasn't.
(38:01):
And when my daughter gotmarried, they were going to let
him go to the temple and not me.
And I I was like, look, I've gota court order.
This guy isn't paying me.
And they said to me, he is themore righteous parent.
He can go.
And I thought, that's not whatthe rules are.
The rules are, if you're notworthy, you don't go.
You don't stack up who's betterthan who.
(38:24):
This is not okay.
And they let him go.
He went to my daughter's weddingand I was not permitted.
And then I had anotherrelationship after him.
I had started dating one of thehigh priest's sons who was 28
when I was 43.
So I start dating him and welived together.
(38:47):
So it was pretty obvious whatwas going on.
And I would get called in thebishop's office after I was
excommunicated.
After I was excommunicated, theywanted me to talk to them about
it.
And I was like, no,
SPEAKER_00 (39:02):
I don't owe
SPEAKER_02 (39:05):
you anything.
But the guy cheated on me.
He cheated on me.
(39:37):
Because I told the truth.
I believed it to my core.
I lived it.
I didn't care what happened tome.
I told them exactly what theywanted.
And they got rid of me becausethat's what you have to do.
You have to lie to stay in.
And that's when it occurred tome.
And that's bullcrap.
That's
SPEAKER_01 (39:57):
bullcrap.
It occurred
SPEAKER_02 (39:57):
to me around the time my daughter got married
where I no longer had that guiltor that fear of leaving.
Yes, the guilt and the shamethat would require personal
penance and making myself abetter person for the mistakes
that I made and things likethat.
SPEAKER_00 (40:37):
Your every thought is being monitored, not
monitored, but like it is beingrecorded.
It is understood.
It is heard by, you know, thehigher powers.
So, you know, it's not onlyabout your actions, but it's
your very thoughts.
But over here, it's quite theopposite.
It's like it doesn't matter.
Just you need to keep a squeakyclean look.
We need to look good on theoutside.
(40:58):
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (40:59):
And that that was one of the things that they said
to me when they excommunicatedme.
They said, you are anembarrassment to this community.
you Yeah.
Yeah.
(41:38):
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
(41:59):
There was a movie, and in themovie it said, We're in an
(42:31):
environment where we're kind toeach other.
We love each other.
I can shower them with just somuch attention and so much
encouragement and create apositive environment.
And I remember just feeling sofree with my children that I had
the patience with them that whenthey would say, you broke up our
(42:51):
family and we lost our home, Iwould say, I did.
I am so sorry.
I did not want to break up ourfamily.
And then I would, as time wenton and as they would start to
notice things, they would say,yeah, dad didn't talk very
nicely to you, did he?
I'm like, no.
And we talked to each otherkindly.
(43:12):
Isn't it a good feeling?
And they would start to noticethings.
I have a great relationship withall of my adult children to this
day.
And they have every reason inthe world to hate me.
And they love me.
And they are the ones that havetaught me unconditional love,
for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (43:29):
Wow.
I mean, I can feel that as well,like in, you know, in our email
correspondence and stuff, likethe grace.
I was thinking about this evenbefore our interview, like the
number of times you've justshown so much grace with, you
know, having to like reschedulethe interviews or, you know, all
of these little things.
I know that they seem little,but, you know, to a lot of
(43:52):
people, it can be like, this isfrustrating, you know, but you
were just like, sure, noproblem.
Like, you know, let's do it.
I'm just happy to do this.
And to me, I don't know, it wassuch a, it was such a game
changer to sort of see thatbecause I just felt so calm and
just like okay like this is thisis okay like it'll be okay
because I know sometimes I canget a little bit like anxious or
(44:15):
worried if I know I'm having tolike reschedule more than once
especially that like I don'twant to put someone else at such
an inconvenience but when you'rekind of putting that out there
that kindness out there it makesa really really big difference
you know it does and
SPEAKER_02 (44:30):
I think it I think that Yeah, one of those things,
and I appreciate that.
Thank you so much.
(45:01):
cheating on me and this haseverything to do with him and
his pain and it doesn't haveanything to do with me or not
anything but it has more to dowith what's going on with him
because i remember what thatfelt like but equally it did
hurt you know but offering himthe grace because remembering
that if i truly believe that ican change i need to be able to
(45:23):
truly believe that someone elsecan change
SPEAKER_00 (45:26):
have you have you used like ever since you've been
out have you um tried toconvince, say, your kids or
anyone, your family members inthat's within about what the
reality is?
Have you ever tried to convinceany of them out?
No.
So are they still all very muchmembers?
No.
Oh,
SPEAKER_02 (45:50):
okay.
Okay.
So like, all of my siblings haveleft, all three of them, all of
my kids are out.
And I would never encourageanyone to leave, ever.
And I wouldn't never go onsomeone's page on TikTok and
say, your church is garbage.
Truth is consistent.
(46:11):
Truth is real.
Truth is powerful.
And when I told the truth aboutwhat I had done and owned my
mistakes and told the grittydetails, it gave me power.
Like, man, there's some power intruth.
Like, truth is, A, it's thefunniest, and truth is powerful.
(46:31):
Yeah.
(47:01):
if they were still in the churchor approve them only because
they were in the church.
Being in the church, everythingwas very conditional.
I mean, there are a lot ofpeople whose entire families cut
them off when they leave.
They're done with them.
And I knew if I had done that20, 30 years ago, my parents
probably would have cut me off.
(47:22):
But it's been interestingbecause my 83-year-old parents
are still very, very much in.
And then my boys, after theycame home from their mission
They also didn't go to mydaughter's wedding, which is
highly unusual because they havebeen endowed and they are
considered temple worthy afterthey get back from their
(47:42):
missions.
And I noticed that neither oneof them went.
And I just kept my lip zipped.
I didn't say anything.
But everybody knows why they'renot there.
You know, they're not living thegospel.
And that's like really bad inthe Mormon church.
Of course, no one ever called mysons in and asked them, you
know, hey, what's going on?
Give us the deets.
I think it much different forwomen.
(48:02):
We're definitely kind oftargeted with that.
But yeah, my sons didn't go, andI'm sure that there was probably
some sexual component.
You know, they're 21, horny ashell.
And so, both of them, both myolder sons and then my younger
sons, my youngest son was thefirst one of my kids to leave
(48:25):
the church.
He was nine.
And he said to me, nine, nine.
He was nine.
This kid is brilliant.
He is.
And he looked at me.
It was right after my daughter'swedding.
He looked at me and he goes,Mom, do you believe in God?
And I said, yeah, I think I do.
And he said, I don't.
I'm atheist.
It just felt so empty to hearhim say, I'm an atheist.
(48:49):
And I said, what makes you thinkyou're an atheist?
And he said, oh, he said, BillNye, the science guy.
He says, what he says is true,Mom.
Wow.
Bill Nye.
was dying.
And all my kids, thenine-year-old, just, I don't
believe in God.
And everyone was like, oh mygosh.
(49:10):
He is so funny.
He's 22 now.
He is so adorable.
But he, all the time, he'll justsay, Mom, don't you think it was
cool that I led us all astray?
SPEAKER_01 (49:20):
But yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (49:21):
I do, actually.
Because it actually kind of gaveme permission to go, yeah, you
know, this is a kid.
This is a kid who sees throughthis garbage, and You know what?
He's smart.
And he really is a smart kid.
But yeah, it kind of gave mepermission.
Like, Oh, mom, you're not allthat bad.
You don't have to go.
You know, it's okay.
(49:42):
You're not a terrible mom.
I don't believe it either.
SPEAKER_00 (49:46):
Yeah.
No, that's great.
That's amazing to see likesomeone who's literally raised
into it, like, you know, goingthrough all the indoctrination
and everything and yet can watchone episode.
I'd be like, Nope, that's mytruth.
And literally, Living it soopenly and
SPEAKER_02 (50:02):
comfortably, right?
It's amazing.
(50:31):
kicked the heck out.
They don't want to kick peopleout anymore.
They're losing members indroves.
They would never kick somebodyout like me now.
I kind of feel like the OGMormon.
It kind of makes me excited togo, yeah, I got to
SPEAKER_01 (50:44):
communicate.
SPEAKER_02 (50:46):
They asked me how many times and I didn't know
because I just didn't know.
I'm like, I'm the OG.
SPEAKER_00 (50:53):
Yeah, exactly.
Probably one of the last few.
SPEAKER_02 (50:58):
And now they can show their porn shoulders.
I'm like, oh, whatever
SPEAKER_00 (51:03):
that's crazy oh my gosh so one last question i do
want to know a little bit morethough what was it like um um
kind of adjusting into the worldoutside of mormonism uh in terms
of getting a job in terms of youknow finding friends you know in
(51:23):
terms of your relationship withgod after that where do you
stand with that as well now yeah
SPEAKER_02 (51:29):
you know i i'm kind Coming back to spirituality, and
I would have to say it's notGod.
I cannot for the life of meimagine a man ruling me.
It is very, it'sheart-wrenching.
It's painful to my soul.
And so I honestly honor MotherEarth.
I mean, the Earth is just sobeautiful.
And I find myself just honoringthe world that we live in and
(51:54):
knowing that there is a creator.
There has to be a creator.
But I think of her as like asacred, compassionate, loving,
Mother Earth.
And that's who I honor now.
It's nice to be able to decidefor yourself what feels right
for me.
And that's also something Iwould never push on anybody.
I would ask them, what's rightfor you?
(52:15):
It takes you a long time, youknow, to get there.
But as far as relationships andafter my divorce, I went back to
grad school.
And so I was in grad school andbecame a nurse practitioner.
And so when I found myself Itwas actually very good for me
to, um, to, it was, it was thefirst career I really was
(52:40):
allowed to have.
And it felt kind of badass.
It really did.
Like I have a career, like thisis a big deal.
I'm not like a big girl with abig career.
I can buy my own house.
I can buy my own car.
Like this rocks.
So it was very empowering, liketo not have a man and do, and
just do me and also have theconfidence in dating.
(53:01):
Yeah, I'm not here because Ineed you to pay my bills.
I'm not here because I needsomebody to take care of me.
(53:31):
I've never remarried.
I don't think that I ever will.
I don't want to.
I'm scared of it.
I'm actually terrified of itbecause it's just, it just
doesn't feel, it doesn't, itdoesn't speak to me.
It just, it scares me and I amsafer feeling like having my own
space.
I do cohabitate with someonethat I'm in a relationship half
(53:54):
of the week and then I work halfof the week somewhere else
because I know that I have tohave my own space.
I can't just be.
And that's okay.
I think I try to just appreciatemyself for that, know where I've
been, understand that maybe thetraditional relationship doesn't
work for me because of some ofthe hurt and the pain.
(54:15):
And to force myself to be therewould make me really anxious.
And what about boundaries?
SPEAKER_00 (54:24):
Talk to me about that.
SPEAKER_02 (54:26):
That is a really good one.
For me, probably the biggestboundary that that I've ever
learned is I do not have totolerate from anyone else what I
would not do.
So if someone speaks to me andthey say something really unkind
to me, I think to myself, I donot need to tolerate that.
(54:47):
I do not need to believe thatbecause that would never come
out of my mouth.
And I will promptly removemyself from the situation.
SPEAKER_00 (54:55):
Do you think that that sort of allowing of
yourself, like giving yourselfyourself the space and that
accountability and thecompassion is the thing that
kind of drove you to write yourbook as well?
Yes.
Yes,
SPEAKER_02 (55:09):
it is.
And writing the book has been atwo-year process.
It has been hard.
I did not expect for it to be sohard.
It was painful at times.
I had to hire a co-author tohelp me.
She has been amazing.
We And she knew nothing aboutthe Mormon church when we got
(55:33):
started.
And the way that we met was onTikTok.
And I was on TikTok.
She wasn't on my account.
But I just started.
I was so frustrated writing mystory.
I just decided, I'm going tostart telling about this magic
underwear that I used to wear.
And I'm just going to tell allthe secrets.
And I'm going to tell my secretname.
And I'm just going to go on
SPEAKER_01 (55:51):
TikTok and do it.
SPEAKER_02 (55:52):
And I did.
I just got on there and I go,yeah, were you Mormon?
And what was your secret name?
Because mine was Claudia and I'mnot going to hell.
And I just did that.
Wow.
(56:30):
that is that there was a guy onthere that followed me when I
started my new account.
And he told me, he said, I wantto pay for your book.
I want to help you.
And he said, and I have somebodyin mind.
And so I'd like to contract herto do your story.
And then he started telling mehow we're going to do it.
(56:52):
He said, we're going to makethis about Vegas.
We're going to do this.
He said, I grew up Mormon.
We're going to do this.
We're Tell me what to do in mylife.
This is baloney.
And that's what I told him.
I just said, you know what?
I don't feel good about this.
I don't like you telling me whatI'm going to put in my book.
(57:15):
And it doesn't feel right.
And also, I can pay for my ownbook.
So I appreciate the gesture.
Very nice.
But this is not the way I wantto go.
And he also said to me in thatconversation, And I thought,
(57:35):
here we go.
(58:00):
Yeah, I agree with you.
I don't want to use this guy.
I'm willing to pay you directly.
(58:22):
Do you still want to do it?
I mean, I appreciate the factthat he helped us find each
other.
I know you guys are kind ofinvolved in a relationship.
I just want to keep thatseparate.
And she said, what?
I'm not involved in arelationship with him.
In his dreams.
And we both started cracking up.
We were dying laughing.
We're like, perfect example ofhow men play women.
SPEAKER_01 (58:43):
And
SPEAKER_02 (58:45):
you know what?
So I just paid her the money andwe cut him out like just go away
and quit messing with both ofus.
And it was awesome.
That's how we found each other.
And we did Zooms for the firstyear.
And then we got together andstarted literally compiling it
into the chapters and thenperfecting it.
And it's called A Piece of Me,Finding My Voice After
(59:07):
Mormonism, Marriage, Medicine,and Men.
And so I
SPEAKER_00 (59:11):
love it.
Yeah, yeah.
Like you're really one of thoseexamples of someone who's turned
their pain into you know into astory that is um just just so
powerful like it's so meaningfulin its in its own sense as well
like you know so you know hugeprops to you that means so much
SPEAKER_02 (59:33):
that's my hope and I really feel like it will
resonate with people I reallyreally do I think more so with
women yeah but I think anyonewho reads it I mean it doesn't
help that it's hot pink you knowyeah but I I really think anyone
reading it will be able to finda piece of themselves in it and
(59:55):
learn, first and foremost,self-compassion and then
compassion for the world aroundthem.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00:02):
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that.
Susie, thank you so much forbeing on Multispective and being
vulnerable with us today.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00:09):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for theopportunity.
It is such a pleasure to meetyou.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00:18):
If you enjoyed the episode and would like to help
support the show, please followand subscribe.
You can rate and review yourfeedback on any of our platforms
listed in the description.
I'd like to recognize our guestswho are vulnerable and open to
share their life experienceswith us.
Thank you for showing us we'rehuman.
Also, a thank you to our teamwho worked so hard behind the
scenes to make it happen.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:39):
The
SPEAKER_00 (01:00:42):
show would be nothing without you.
I'm Jenica, host and writer ofthe show, and you're listening
to...
multispective.
When I married my husband, what made our marriage
strong, the only thing we had incommon was the church.
We were both very faithful andbelieved it wholeheartedly.
In the temple, women covenant toour husbands, and our husbands
covenant to God.
I wasn't even worthy enough tocovenant to God.
(00:21):
I had to covenant to my husbandand obey him.
And after three years oftraining with him, and then
before you know it, like, he'ssexy.
You know, he looks good.
And one thing leads to another.
And I find myself in thebishop's office with so much
shame and guilt confessing.
I couldn't go to my daughter'swedding.
I wasn't permitted into thetemple to see her get married.
(00:44):
I did not realize it was a cult.
I just began to start thinking,is this how God would treat me?
SPEAKER_00 (00:57):
Suzy.
I am so excited to
SPEAKER_02 (01:05):
have
SPEAKER_00 (01:07):
you on air with us.
How are you doing today?
(01:28):
at this point, you'll findpeople practicing this kind of
all over the world.
And some may confuse this forreligion.
Some may argue that, hey, thisis not a cult.
How can we label it this?
So I'm really, really excited toshare this on air and sort of
like raise awareness on sort ofthe actual insides of what is
(01:50):
actually happening within this.
So, you know, you yourself wereraised in it.
So, you know, hearing itfirsthand, I think would be
really, really powerful for alist So why don't you start off
just telling us a little bitabout where your story
SPEAKER_02 (02:13):
begins.
language and translated it intoEnglish.
(02:34):
And the religion went on foryears, and my forefathers were
pioneers that supported andsacrificed their lives for the
church in the trek to Salt LakeCity.
So, my great-grandfather,Stillman Pond, had eight
children and a wife that heburied on the way to the trek
west to Salt Lake City.
(02:54):
So, when I speak of Mormonismbeing at my very roots.
It really is.
And I was born and raised intoit, and my parents were very,
very faithful, very committed.
And I married in the temple,just as I was told to do, and
raised my six children Mormon.
(03:16):
And it wasn't until probablyaround the age of 42, 43, that I
began allowing myself for theRight.
SPEAKER_00 (03:31):
Wow.
So, I mean, it sounds like, butthere is like a really, really
strong history of here.
Do you know, like, the numbersof, like, how big this is today?
The
SPEAKER_02 (03:43):
church?
I could look it up really quick.
I could look it up.
I've got my iPad here.
But millions.
Millions.
SPEAKER_00 (03:51):
Yeah, that's the thing.
I'd be curious about thisbecause, I mean, I myself have
met people here who havepracticed this or believe in
this.
And, you know, Maybe not soreligiously practicing it as a
knocking on doors and trying toconvert, but really, really do
believe very strongly in thefaith, in the beliefs of it.
(04:11):
So I'd be curious to sort ofknow, or like how many churches
there are and how widespread isit?
How far outside of the U.S.
have they also sort of expandedto?
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (04:25):
Well, I know I have a son who served his mission in
a So of course, when the boys inthe church are 19, they're sent
all over the world to spread thegospel.
(04:58):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (04:59):
imagine
SPEAKER_02 (05:03):
that.
(05:28):
I mean, have you seen the Mormontemples?
They're, yeah, like extravagant.
Extravagant.
And you can only imagine.
I mean, it costs billions ofdollars to build these temples.
But right now, I mean, I wouldjust be really curious to know
how many because they arebuilding so many.
(05:48):
And the interesting thing aboutthe temples, do you know what
goes on in the temples?
Not exactly, no.
Okay, so marriages aresolemnized is what they're
called.
It's That is the only ordinancedone for you in your life, for
you, yourself.
Every time that you go back tothe temple, you are doing temple
(06:10):
work in proxy for someone who isdead, who used to live on the
earth.
So, the purpose of that is toensure that every person who has
ever lived on this earthreceives the opportunity to
accept the Church of JesusChrist of Latter-day Saints.
as truth, that every knee shallbow, every tongue confess that
(06:35):
Jesus is the Christ, and thatthey will be given the
opportunity to join the church.
And so, it's purported that evenHitler's temple work has been
done.
So, I mean, when I was a younggirl, when I was 12, I started
going to the temple, and wewould do the ordinance of
(06:55):
baptism for the dead in thetemple.
So, we would do it for and inbehalf of someone who had
previously died.
So, that's why it was calledBaptisms for the Dead.
But everything we do in thetemple is for someone who is no
longer living, so that they havethe opportunity in the realm
that they're in, which we callthe, you know, the hereafter or
(07:16):
before the judgment, whereeveryone waits so that they can
accept the gospel.
So, yeah, because the churchand, you know, the interesting
thing is that we were told wewere Mormon, right?
So, our prophets told us we wereMormon.
We used to sing songs as littlekids about how excited we were
(07:38):
to be Mormon, and now the newprophet of the church has
decided that he doesn't like thename Mormonism, and he wants
people to be called a member ofthe Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints.
So, it's really funny.
You'll see this online where themembers of the church get really
angry for being called Mormon.
(08:00):
They have been told it's anickname and that it's not a
nice nickname.
But my generation, we weretaught that we were Mormon and
that we were happy to be Mormonand we should be proud of it.
And so that's one of the thingsthat has changed.
SPEAKER_00 (08:13):
And I wonder whether that's because like the name
Mormonism has become slightlytainted and the more people are
talking about it and people arecoming out.
So they just rebrand it, callthe LDS and just, you Did they
actually make any internalchanges as well in terms of what
they expect or what they believeor what, you know?
SPEAKER_02 (08:35):
Yeah, and that's a great question because for the
first 42 years of my life, wewere always told the church will
never change.
It is the same yesterday, today,and forever.
And if you expect the church tochange, do not hold out for it
because it will not.
And so, for instance, here's aperfect example of how it is
changing.
We were expected when we went tothe temple that we would wear
(08:59):
sacred underwear.
And this underwear covered likefrom here, like this, I wouldn't
have been able to wear this whenI was Mormon.
I would have had to like havethat covered.
But it covered here and all theway down covering cleavage and
it went down to our knees and wehad to wear that under our
clothes.
(09:19):
And we were told that it wasnever going to change.
And the funny thing is, guesswhat they've just recently done
in the last six months?
Now you can have porn shoulders.
(09:58):
Right.
Wow.
(10:28):
and secret chants that we weretaught, and we were told never
to divulge this to anyone.
If we talked to anyone aboutthis, we would be cast out.
And we were also given a newname.
So my new name, I was told if Iever uttered it, I would be cast
out.
(10:48):
And so I knew my name, and myhusband could know my name, but
I was not allowed to know hisname.
Because in the temple, womencovenant to God.
I mean, excuse me, we covenantedto our husbands and our husbands
covenanted to God.
So I didn't even, I wasn't evenworthy enough being completely
worthy to covenant to God.
(11:09):
I had to covenant
SPEAKER_00 (11:10):
to my husband and obey him.
And I'm guessing that that sortof like applied in every aspect,
in every decision-making power,in every kind of like owning a
property or owning of anythinghad to be through your husband,
right?
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (11:24):
Yeah.
And he always got the final sayno matter what.
He was considered the priesthoodleader of the home and that we
should never argue with thepriesthood, that those were
direct keys from God.
And we as women were not allowedto have the priesthood, but we
were teased and told, you canhold the priesthood by hugging
him, by having him.
(11:46):
You can hold the priesthood, butyou can't hold the priesthood.
Yeah.
And, you know, when women wouldtalk about how unfair it seemed,
we were very much chastised andwe were not Never allowed or
permitted to question becausethat was considered apostasy.
You were considered an apostateif you ever questioned anything.
(12:07):
And so, you learned that it wasnot righteous.
It didn't look good.
It was sinful to question.
And as the internet came aboutand people started learning
about the history, we were nevertaught that Joseph Smith, the
founder of the church, was apolygamist.
We didn't know that.
We knew that He taught polygamylater on, but we didn't know he
(12:31):
himself was married to 40 women,some of them being under the age
of 14, even 12.
And some were mothers anddaughters, this guy.
And the church would not, theyabsolutely would not confirm
that.
They just said that isconsidered anti-Mormon
literature.
Don't listen to it.
(12:53):
And they just assumed we'd neverreally find out.
But now they're having toexplain it and it's interesting
watching them explain it awaybecause they can't hide from it
but they never told us I
SPEAKER_00 (13:07):
have so many questions regarding what we've
just talked about I want to goback first to the idea of
secrecy having a secret namehaving a secret handshake what
do you think is the idea behindthat why do you think because
I'm trying to think like a lotof cults they do have a lot of
secrets that they keep withinand it's sort of like this is a
privilege that you get to havebeing in do you think that this
(13:28):
is something that increasesloyalty or increases this bond
between member and church?
What's the idea behind secrets?
So,
SPEAKER_02 (13:36):
the idea behind it is only worthy members can go to
the temple.
Not every member, not everyMormon can go to the temple.
You have to go through twointerviews to be considered
worthy.
Now, with that being said, we'retold if we do not go to the
temple, we can't be with ourfamilies forever.
We will not be able to be withour families after death.
(13:57):
So, there's this pressure thatwe have to be temple worthy in
order to have the blessings ofexaltation.
And it's just, you know, it'smind-blowing that you have to go
through two priesthood holders,the bishop and the state
president, who ask you a slew ofquestions, including things
(14:17):
like, do you pay 10% to thechurch?
If you don't pay 10% to thechurch for tithing, you are not
temple worthy.
You are not allowed to go.
But these secret handshakes andall of that Nobody tells you
you're going to do it before youget there.
And going into it as a20-year-old girl, I was shocked.
I felt uncomfortable.
(14:37):
I felt it was very voodoo-y,like cult-y.
And I remember thinking, this iswhat we do.
This is the temple that theywere telling me about, just was
spiritual and wonderful andamazing.
And I have to wear white robes.
And that goes deeper, too,because because Yeah.
(15:27):
wrong with me?
You know, why do I think this isweird?
I guess this is what we do.
My mom and dad have been doingthis forever.
And I guess this is what we haveto do to have eternal life.
And yeah, but with the secrethandshakes and the new name, I
think that the purpose of thatis to, in a way, change your
identity, change you, taking youfrom who you are to who they
(15:54):
want you to be.
My name, by the way, and I don'tthink Right.
And
SPEAKER_00 (16:01):
that makes sense to strip you away from who you are.
SPEAKER_02 (16:27):
recommend, they can't go to your wedding.
They can't.
Like, I couldn't go to mydaughter's wedding.
I wasn't permitted into thetemple to see her get married
because I didn't have a templerecommend.
I had left the church.
So, no non-members are permittedin for even the living
ordinances of weddings.
(16:47):
And so, people want to attendtheir child's wedding, and so
they will do all the things thatthey have to so that they're
able to be there.
And they don't want everybodyaround them to know why they
don't have a temple recommend.
They're going to think I'm badif they don't see me at the
wedding.
If I can't go to my own child'swedding, I'm going to be bad.
So it's like this socialpressure that's attached to it.
SPEAKER_00 (17:10):
Can you walk me through your relationship with
your husband, being taught thatyour husband was the step
towards God?
How did that sort of impact yourrelationship with your husband?
SPEAKER_02 (17:24):
I was married for 22 years.
I I'm no longer married to him,but...
I went along with it.
It made sense to me because ofthe way I was raised.
In my home, my dad ruled.
Whatever my dad said went, andwe were terrified of the guy,
actually.
But when I married my husband, Ithink that what made our
(17:49):
marriage strong, the only thingwe had in common was the church.
We were both very faithful andbelieved it wholeheartedly, and
so that was the basis of thestrength of our relationship.
And on Honestly, that was finefor me.
I went along for years wherewhatever he said, I went along
with.
I can honestly say about sixyears into it, I started really
(18:12):
struggling with the dynamics ofit and went to counseling and
started learning to have alittle, little bit of my own
voice.
But at the end of the day, Ialways knew what he said went.
And About six years in, Istarted struggling with it, and
(18:35):
I would fight against it andremind myself I needed to be
faithful.
I don't agree with him.
I have to do what I'm told inthe sense like, you know, an
example is his mom always hadthe holidays at her house, and I
was never permitted to have aholiday with my children at my
house.
We went to her house.
There was no question.
(18:55):
If I wanted to just make my ownmeal for the kids and have my
own traditions with them, no.
No, we're going to my mom's.
And after so many years, itreally started to affect me.
And I would say it was aroundthe time that our fourth child
was born and she passed away waswhen I started to kind of rebel
against him a little bit.
SPEAKER_00 (19:17):
Can you tell me a little bit more about the roles
within?
So from what I know, men wererequired to go out, travel
around, preach, try to getpeople to join.
What was it like for women, whatwere you required to do on a
day-to-day basis?
SPEAKER_02 (19:35):
So, we were raised to be homemakers.
You know, that we were raisedthat we would be—our most
important role in life was to bea mother, to have children.
That was our whole identity.
There were two church schools.
There was Brigham YoungUniversity, and there was Ricks
College.
And we could go, but most peopleknew we probably wouldn't
(19:58):
graduate.
We It wasn't expected for us tohave a career.
(20:32):
anything outside of that, Imean, it was pretty shameful.
I had ideas when I was youngerof things I wanted to do.
And I was right away kind ofkicked in the pants by my
parents, like, you're not doingthat.
That's not what a member of thechurch does.
We just don't do that.
And I wanted to be a journalist.
And nope, you're not doing that.
SPEAKER_00 (20:53):
And would you say that that was like the case for
basically everyone around you?
Or did you ever come across orsee any woman out there that
fought for their rights andactually managed No, I
SPEAKER_02 (21:03):
didn't.
Everyone in church was, thewomen were very submissive.
It was very rare back then.
I think it is different now.
I think things are changing nowfor sure.
So a lot of younger people likein their 20s or 30s would watch
this or they would look at meand say, she's full of crap.
That's not taught.
(21:25):
But that is what we were taught.
And it's well documented.
And we weren't We were expectedto have children.
We were also told we should notcurtail the number of children
that we had, meaning have asmany as you can, multiply and
replenish the earth.
So people would have a tendencyto judge one another.
Like if somebody decided theyonly wanted one or two kids,
(21:49):
selfish.
You know, they just get labeledselfish.
And we were expected to havelarge families.
And we were even counseled bythe prophet that we should not
wait to have children.
Even if we were in school, evenif we couldn't afford to, we
should not delay or we shouldnot delay the start of our
(22:09):
families.
And so we were told like rightafter we got married, we should
start to have children.
And I look at my daughter now.
She's been married nine years,no children, not interested.
And I love it.
I'm like, how cool is that?
How
SPEAKER_01 (22:23):
amazing would
SPEAKER_02 (22:23):
that be to like just plan your life out the way
SPEAKER_01 (22:26):
you wanted it
SPEAKER_02 (22:28):
and make decisions for yourself like that?
How amazing.
SPEAKER_01 (22:31):
But
SPEAKER_02 (22:32):
yeah, I was not given those choices.
And sometimes that's the hardestpart of it is to look back at
that and think, okay, You know,I was given those choices.
I was in so deep that I didn'tunderstand they were choices.
And there was a lot ofcriticism, if you did not live
(22:54):
this certain way.
And,
SPEAKER_00 (22:57):
yeah.
What were some of the ways,though, that they were keeping
people in check, in track,making sure that people were not
deviating from, you know, yeah.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (23:07):
that's a great question, too.
We were required to have aninterview you with the bishop
once a year.
So it was called tithingsettlement.
It's done at the end of theyear.
He brings in families, and helooks over what you've
contributed for tithing, and heasks you if it's an honest
tithe.
And sometimes they will questionyou and say, oh, you paid$8,000
(23:29):
this year.
You only made$80,000, you know,or whatever it is.
So sometimes you'll bequestioned on that.
So they have tithing settlementat the end of the year, and then
again, in order to be able to goto the temple, you have to go
through a really rigid interviewwith your bishop and the state
(23:50):
president, and that has to bedone once a year.
So that temple recommend is onlygood for one year.
So every year, you have to comebefore him, and he asks you
questions like, do you pay 10%?
Do you keep the word of wisdom,which means no smoking, no
drinking?
The other one is, do you keepthe law of chastity so that's a
(24:13):
big one because you're notallowed to have you're not
supposed to have sex before yougo to the temple you're not
supposed to do anything naughtylike that and so it gives you an
opportunity for the bishop toreally question and they didn't
just stop with that sometimesthey would drill you like if you
said yeah I've had a little bitof a problem with this or that
in my day masturbation orpornography those were
(24:37):
considered not keeping the lawof chastity so if you were to be
honest and tell them, you know,I'm doing this or I'm doing
that, you wouldn't get yourtemple recommend.
And you couldn't take thesacrament.
So, then everybody around youcan see that you're not taking
the sacrament, and they look,and they notice, and they wonder
why, and rumors start.
(24:58):
You know, but yeah, once a year,you've got that interview with
the bishop that you've got to goto and the state president, and
you are asked the bazillionreally, really personal,
intimate questions Right.
Because in a sense, what ends uphappening is just people
SPEAKER_00 (25:41):
that are rebelling, that are not actually following
the faith.
They're just doing actually whatthey want.
Man, that's really crazy.
I mean, to think that this wasyour life, right?
This is something that youreally lived.
How do you contend now with theidea of what are people going to
think?
(26:01):
Do you feel like you've sort ofsomewhat overcome that hurdle of
acting based on other people'sthoughts?
Or that still matters to you alot?
Well,
SPEAKER_02 (26:11):
it's been a long time since I've left the church
now.
We're going on 13 years.
But I would say in the verybeginning, it was one of the
most challenging things I'veever done.
It was one of the most lonelythings.
And I had been excommunicatedfrom the church because I
believe in honesty.
(26:32):
And I had made some mistakes inmy marriage when it was failing,
and the marriage had been notgood for a long time.
And I had never been with anyoneelse in my life except my
husband.
I did everything right.
And when I realized that, youknow, my husband's just not that
(26:52):
into me, I think I fantasizedand always dreamed about what it
would be like to be with someonewho cared about me and just
absolutely, you know, adored me.
And I didn't plan to have anaffair.
I just decided that I was goingto start bodybuilding and
(27:12):
focusing on me since I couldn'treally control the fact that my
husband really wasn't that intome.
So that was the route that Itook.
And the really unfortunate partwas I did not realize how
vulnerable I was.
I never would have wanted tocheat on my husband.
It's never a plan I would make.
But I was very vulnerable.
And I purposely chose a trainerthat I was not attracted to that
(27:35):
was my same height.
He kind of looked like a monkeya little bit because of all the
anabolics.
Oh, yeah, yeah, this guy's safe.
You know, he's safe.
And after three years oftraining with him, he became
like my best friend.
He was like my pal.
And then before you know it,like, he's sexy.
(27:57):
You know, he looks good.
And then, you know, the firsttime I kissed him, I thought,
oh, what am I doing?
Like, I am breaking the rules.
I'm going to get in trouble.
And one thing leads to another.
And I find myself in thebishop's office with so much
shame and guilt confessingbecause I couldn't live with
myself.
I felt, I mean, an affair isnever a good thing anyway,
(28:21):
whether you're in the church orout of the church.
It's never honest.
But I had always lived an honestlife, and it really affected me.
And I wanted to repent of mysins, even though I was really
drawn to my sins I was like okaythis is something I want to do
but I'm not supposed to so I'mgonna I've got to confess and I
did go in and tell my bishop andthat was hellacious to say
SPEAKER_00 (28:47):
the least right tell me walk me through what happened
SPEAKER_02 (28:51):
so when um when I told the bishop it had been
going on for a couple of monthsand I told my my trainer you
know I can't do this anymore I'mgonna tell my husband I'm gonna
have to tell tell confess.
And the first thing that I did,I mean, it was so hard to even
utter what I had done becauseall I could think of was hell,
(29:11):
fire, brimstone, never seeing mychildren again, never seeing my
daughter who had passed away.
And that was the thing thatreally, I wanted to see her
again.
I wanted to be with my children.
I actually really believed it.
I think so many members of thechurch don't actually believe it
as truth, but I believed it tomy core, and I knew what I was
(29:33):
doing was wrong, and I wanted tomake it right.
And so when I went into him, Ihad gone to a counselor first,
and the counselor told me, shesaid, she was Mormon, and she
said, you know, you're going tohave to tell your husband.
And I said, I know.
And she said, because you arecovenant, you make your
(29:54):
covenants to him.
And she said that she workedwith men who had cheated on
their wives, and they didn'thave to confess Right.
(30:32):
My husband wanted me to tell noone and he wanted us to work on
it.
And he said he would doeverything that he could.
I mean, after the initial losinghis mind and like, I'm going to,
but he didn't want a divorce.
He wanted to stay married.
And I, I really didn't want tostay married.
I didn't want to be with my,with my trainer, but I, the
(30:56):
marriage had been dead for solong.
So I gave it another, we gave itanother run and I found myself a
year later in the same placewith someone else.
And I said to myself, is being acheater, is being a cheater,
once you're a cheater, you'realways a cheater?
Because I don't want to be that.
Why am I doing this?
I'm doing this because mymarriage is miserable.
(31:17):
I need to get out of it.
So the first time I wasdisfellowshipped by the church,
which means that I could stillkeep my blessings, but I was
disfellowshipped because myhusband wanted to stay married
to me.
So it depended upon what hewanted done.
If If he wanted meexcommunicated, I would have
been gone.
Disfellowshipped, I was justlike on probation.
SPEAKER_01 (31:39):
Well,
SPEAKER_02 (31:39):
the second time I did it, the second time I did
it, they were done with me.
And I filed for divorce and lefthim.
I wasn't going to let him talk.
I don't even know why he wantedme to stay there.
Why would you want to be withsomebody who cheated on you?
But he just did not want hismarriage broken up because of
the blessings, the blessingsthat he had because of me.
(32:02):
I was his golden ticket to thecelestial kingdom.
And that's why there's a lot ofbabysitting between couples when
you're in the church becauseyou're their golden ticket.
They can't get to heaven withoutyou.
And so rather than being apartner, you babysit each other.
And yeah, it was after that thateverybody in the community knew
(32:25):
I'd been excommunicated.
It was a really big deal to gothrough an excommunication.
And you sit before, in my case,four men.
who ask you detailed questionsabout which orifice it went in,
how many times, yeah, how manytimes you've had sex with how
many people.
Did you like it?
(32:46):
Very graphic questions.
And I answered every one of themhonestly.
And I was told that the HolyGhost would no longer be with me
and the Holy Ghost is what theytell you is the still small
voice.
It's really your intuition, butthey tell you that it's a And I
(33:06):
walked out of there and Iremember thinking, I still have
the Holy Ghost.
What the hell?
And I thought, oh, wait, that'sme.
I'm the Holy Ghost.
I'm the way.
And it was just like, I didn'tknow how I was going to survive
it because it affected mychildren.
Everybody knew that they had aterrible mother, that their
(33:28):
mother was breaking up theirfamily.
And I think my oldest at thetime was seven.
And my youngest was probably sixor seven.
So everyone at school wastalking about it because we had
a large Mormon community andeveryone within the community
because everybody knows theMormons there.
SPEAKER_00 (33:48):
Right.
Can you walk me through how wasyour relationship with your kids
after that then?
It
SPEAKER_02 (33:54):
was hard.
It was really hard.
They were very, very angry withme.
And I remember having to tellmyself they're angry with me for
good reason.
They have every reason to beangry with me.
And it's unfortunate that theyhave to know the details of our
marriage and the demise of ourmarriage.
It's very unfortunate.
(34:15):
But I need to own it.
I need to bravely own it andshow them that we all make
mistakes.
This is a huge one.
I had to find it within myselfto not hate myself because in my
religion, I was always taughtAnd I had to relearn what the
(34:38):
nature of God really is becauseI thought there's not a God that
would do to me what those mendid to me.
He's not like that.
Right.
(35:02):
It will be okay.
You will survive.
And I started to believe inmyself.
And that's what my trainertaught me.
He was the first person in mylife to believe in me.
And so I started learning thosepositive things.
Even though he was way far outof my life, he really affected
the way I learned to speak tomyself and the way that I
learned to survive what I wasgoing through.
(35:24):
And I also realized...
I started realizing the churchwasn't true.
I just thought it justwouldn't—they wouldn't do this
to somebody.
They wouldn't ostracizesomebody.
I mean, it's like they're scaredof me.
It's like they are so terrifiedthat I'm going to be a negative
influence on the other women ofthe church, and they're
(35:48):
terrified of me.
You know, and that's what itboils down to.
And I started seeing it for whatit was, and I started thinking,
I'm not a bad person.
I'm a person that made a reallybad mistake.
How am I going to figure out inmy life how I'm not going to
make that mistake ever again?
And I thought, well, I'll neverbe in a loveless relationship.
SPEAKER_00 (36:09):
I'll walk
SPEAKER_02 (36:09):
away before it becomes loveless, because now I
know I can.
But it's, yeah, it's scary.
I've never been on my own mywhole life.
SPEAKER_00 (36:17):
Yeah.
Yeah, I was going to just saythis, because I think you're the
first episode that I've donewhere an individual has left and
been excommunicated.
communicated from a cult withouthaving that awareness of like,
hey, I'm in a cult.
The episodes that I've donepreviously, they've been somehow
(36:38):
made aware of the fact that thisis a cult that they're in and
then chosen to exit with thatknowledge.
Yes, that's a very interestingtake.
Right.
So that's kind of what I wantedto know.
How did it start to sort of dawnon you that actually what was
happening inside was not true?
was a cult was it from readingbooks about it reading you know
(37:02):
other testimonials you knowreviews of people honest stories
listening to people's stories orwas it just sort of realizing
that so much of what they'vesaid is not true you still have
these wonders that you know thatthey've kind of been holding
over you i'm so glad
SPEAKER_02 (37:17):
this question is phenomenal this is like this is
such this is such an importantlike i am so impressed with you
that like you're able that youBecause I've never been asked
this question.
I've been asked most questionsmany times.
This is a very good question.
I think, yeah, I did not realizeit was a cult.
(37:40):
I just began to start thinking,is this how God would treat me?
You know, for starters.
And then about, and I was goingthrough my divorce and
everything, and my husbandwasn't paying me child support.
And he, and that is one of thequestions.
You have to be paying childsupport in order to go to the
temple.
Well, he wasn't.
(38:01):
And when my daughter gotmarried, they were going to let
him go to the temple and not me.
And I I was like, look, I've gota court order.
This guy isn't paying me.
And they said to me, he is themore righteous parent.
He can go.
And I thought, that's not whatthe rules are.
The rules are, if you're notworthy, you don't go.
You don't stack up who's betterthan who.
(38:24):
This is not okay.
And they let him go.
He went to my daughter's weddingand I was not permitted.
And then I had anotherrelationship after him.
I had started dating one of thehigh priest's sons who was 28
when I was 43.
So I start dating him and welived together.
(38:47):
So it was pretty obvious whatwas going on.
And I would get called in thebishop's office after I was
excommunicated.
After I was excommunicated, theywanted me to talk to them about
it.
And I was like, no,
SPEAKER_00 (39:02):
I don't owe
SPEAKER_02 (39:05):
you anything.
But the guy cheated on me.
He cheated on me.
(39:37):
Because I told the truth.
I believed it to my core.
I lived it.
I didn't care what happened tome.
I told them exactly what theywanted.
And they got rid of me becausethat's what you have to do.
You have to lie to stay in.
And that's when it occurred tome.
And that's bullcrap.
That's
SPEAKER_01 (39:57):
bullcrap.
It occurred
SPEAKER_02 (39:57):
to me around the time my daughter got married
where I no longer had that guiltor that fear of leaving.
Yes, the guilt and the shamethat would require personal
penance and making myself abetter person for the mistakes
that I made and things likethat.
SPEAKER_00 (40:37):
Your every thought is being monitored, not
monitored, but like it is beingrecorded.
It is understood.
It is heard by, you know, thehigher powers.
So, you know, it's not onlyabout your actions, but it's
your very thoughts.
But over here, it's quite theopposite.
It's like it doesn't matter.
Just you need to keep a squeakyclean look.
We need to look good on theoutside.
(40:58):
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (40:59):
And that that was one of the things that they said
to me when they excommunicatedme.
They said, you are anembarrassment to this community.
you Yeah.
Yeah.
(41:38):
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
(41:59):
There was a movie, and in themovie it said, We're in an
(42:31):
environment where we're kind toeach other.
We love each other.
I can shower them with just somuch attention and so much
encouragement and create apositive environment.
And I remember just feeling sofree with my children that I had
the patience with them that whenthey would say, you broke up our
(42:51):
family and we lost our home, Iwould say, I did.
I am so sorry.
I did not want to break up ourfamily.
And then I would, as time wenton and as they would start to
notice things, they would say,yeah, dad didn't talk very
nicely to you, did he?
I'm like, no.
And we talked to each otherkindly.
(43:12):
Isn't it a good feeling?
And they would start to noticethings.
I have a great relationship withall of my adult children to this
day.
And they have every reason inthe world to hate me.
And they love me.
And they are the ones that havetaught me unconditional love,
for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (43:29):
Wow.
I mean, I can feel that as well,like in, you know, in our email
correspondence and stuff, likethe grace.
I was thinking about this evenbefore our interview, like the
number of times you've justshown so much grace with, you
know, having to like reschedulethe interviews or, you know, all
of these little things.
I know that they seem little,but, you know, to a lot of
(43:52):
people, it can be like, this isfrustrating, you know, but you
were just like, sure, noproblem.
Like, you know, let's do it.
I'm just happy to do this.
And to me, I don't know, it wassuch a, it was such a game
changer to sort of see thatbecause I just felt so calm and
just like okay like this is thisis okay like it'll be okay
because I know sometimes I canget a little bit like anxious or
(44:15):
worried if I know I'm having tolike reschedule more than once
especially that like I don'twant to put someone else at such
an inconvenience but when you'rekind of putting that out there
that kindness out there it makesa really really big difference
you know it does and
SPEAKER_02 (44:30):
I think it I think that Yeah, one of those things,
and I appreciate that.
Thank you so much.
(45:01):
cheating on me and this haseverything to do with him and
his pain and it doesn't haveanything to do with me or not
anything but it has more to dowith what's going on with him
because i remember what thatfelt like but equally it did
hurt you know but offering himthe grace because remembering
that if i truly believe that ican change i need to be able to
(45:23):
truly believe that someone elsecan change
SPEAKER_00 (45:26):
have you have you used like ever since you've been
out have you um tried toconvince, say, your kids or
anyone, your family members inthat's within about what the
reality is?
Have you ever tried to convinceany of them out?
No.
So are they still all very muchmembers?
No.
Oh,
SPEAKER_02 (45:50):
okay.
Okay.
So like, all of my siblings haveleft, all three of them, all of
my kids are out.
And I would never encourageanyone to leave, ever.
And I wouldn't never go onsomeone's page on TikTok and
say, your church is garbage.
Truth is consistent.
(46:11):
Truth is real.
Truth is powerful.
And when I told the truth aboutwhat I had done and owned my
mistakes and told the grittydetails, it gave me power.
Like, man, there's some power intruth.
Like, truth is, A, it's thefunniest, and truth is powerful.
(46:31):
Yeah.
(47:01):
if they were still in the churchor approve them only because
they were in the church.
Being in the church, everythingwas very conditional.
I mean, there are a lot ofpeople whose entire families cut
them off when they leave.
They're done with them.
And I knew if I had done that20, 30 years ago, my parents
probably would have cut me off.
(47:22):
But it's been interestingbecause my 83-year-old parents
are still very, very much in.
And then my boys, after theycame home from their mission
They also didn't go to mydaughter's wedding, which is
highly unusual because they havebeen endowed and they are
considered temple worthy afterthey get back from their
(47:42):
missions.
And I noticed that neither oneof them went.
And I just kept my lip zipped.
I didn't say anything.
But everybody knows why they'renot there.
You know, they're not living thegospel.
And that's like really bad inthe Mormon church.
Of course, no one ever called mysons in and asked them, you
know, hey, what's going on?
Give us the deets.
I think it much different forwomen.
(48:02):
We're definitely kind oftargeted with that.
But yeah, my sons didn't go, andI'm sure that there was probably
some sexual component.
You know, they're 21, horny ashell.
And so, both of them, both myolder sons and then my younger
sons, my youngest son was thefirst one of my kids to leave
(48:25):
the church.
He was nine.
And he said to me, nine, nine.
He was nine.
This kid is brilliant.
He is.
And he looked at me.
It was right after my daughter'swedding.
He looked at me and he goes,Mom, do you believe in God?
And I said, yeah, I think I do.
And he said, I don't.
I'm atheist.
It just felt so empty to hearhim say, I'm an atheist.
(48:49):
And I said, what makes you thinkyou're an atheist?
And he said, oh, he said, BillNye, the science guy.
He says, what he says is true,Mom.
Wow.
Bill Nye.
was dying.
And all my kids, thenine-year-old, just, I don't
believe in God.
And everyone was like, oh mygosh.
(49:10):
He is so funny.
He's 22 now.
He is so adorable.
But he, all the time, he'll justsay, Mom, don't you think it was
cool that I led us all astray?
SPEAKER_01 (49:20):
But yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (49:21):
I do, actually.
Because it actually kind of gaveme permission to go, yeah, you
know, this is a kid.
This is a kid who sees throughthis garbage, and You know what?
He's smart.
And he really is a smart kid.
But yeah, it kind of gave mepermission.
Like, Oh, mom, you're not allthat bad.
You don't have to go.
You know, it's okay.
(49:42):
You're not a terrible mom.
I don't believe it either.
SPEAKER_00 (49:46):
Yeah.
No, that's great.
That's amazing to see likesomeone who's literally raised
into it, like, you know, goingthrough all the indoctrination
and everything and yet can watchone episode.
I'd be like, Nope, that's mytruth.
And literally, Living it soopenly and
SPEAKER_02 (50:02):
comfortably, right?
It's amazing.
(50:31):
kicked the heck out.
They don't want to kick peopleout anymore.
They're losing members indroves.
They would never kick somebodyout like me now.
I kind of feel like the OGMormon.
It kind of makes me excited togo, yeah, I got to
SPEAKER_01 (50:44):
communicate.
SPEAKER_02 (50:46):
They asked me how many times and I didn't know
because I just didn't know.
I'm like, I'm the OG.
SPEAKER_00 (50:53):
Yeah, exactly.
Probably one of the last few.
SPEAKER_02 (50:58):
And now they can show their porn shoulders.
I'm like, oh, whatever
SPEAKER_00 (51:03):
that's crazy oh my gosh so one last question i do
want to know a little bit morethough what was it like um um
kind of adjusting into the worldoutside of mormonism uh in terms
of getting a job in terms of youknow finding friends you know in
(51:23):
terms of your relationship withgod after that where do you
stand with that as well now yeah
SPEAKER_02 (51:29):
you know i i'm kind Coming back to spirituality, and
I would have to say it's notGod.
I cannot for the life of meimagine a man ruling me.
It is very, it'sheart-wrenching.
It's painful to my soul.
And so I honestly honor MotherEarth.
I mean, the Earth is just sobeautiful.
And I find myself just honoringthe world that we live in and
(51:54):
knowing that there is a creator.
There has to be a creator.
But I think of her as like asacred, compassionate, loving,
Mother Earth.
And that's who I honor now.
It's nice to be able to decidefor yourself what feels right
for me.
And that's also something Iwould never push on anybody.
I would ask them, what's rightfor you?
(52:15):
It takes you a long time, youknow, to get there.
But as far as relationships andafter my divorce, I went back to
grad school.
And so I was in grad school andbecame a nurse practitioner.
And so when I found myself Itwas actually very good for me
to, um, to, it was, it was thefirst career I really was
(52:40):
allowed to have.
And it felt kind of badass.
It really did.
Like I have a career, like thisis a big deal.
I'm not like a big girl with abig career.
I can buy my own house.
I can buy my own car.
Like this rocks.
So it was very empowering, liketo not have a man and do, and
just do me and also have theconfidence in dating.
(53:01):
Yeah, I'm not here because Ineed you to pay my bills.
I'm not here because I needsomebody to take care of me.
(53:31):
I've never remarried.
I don't think that I ever will.
I don't want to.
I'm scared of it.
I'm actually terrified of itbecause it's just, it just
doesn't feel, it doesn't, itdoesn't speak to me.
It just, it scares me and I amsafer feeling like having my own
space.
I do cohabitate with someonethat I'm in a relationship half
(53:54):
of the week and then I work halfof the week somewhere else
because I know that I have tohave my own space.
I can't just be.
And that's okay.
I think I try to just appreciatemyself for that, know where I've
been, understand that maybe thetraditional relationship doesn't
work for me because of some ofthe hurt and the pain.
(54:15):
And to force myself to be therewould make me really anxious.
And what about boundaries?
SPEAKER_00 (54:24):
Talk to me about that.
SPEAKER_02 (54:26):
That is a really good one.
For me, probably the biggestboundary that that I've ever
learned is I do not have totolerate from anyone else what I
would not do.
So if someone speaks to me andthey say something really unkind
to me, I think to myself, I donot need to tolerate that.
(54:47):
I do not need to believe thatbecause that would never come
out of my mouth.
And I will promptly removemyself from the situation.
SPEAKER_00 (54:55):
Do you think that that sort of allowing of
yourself, like giving yourselfyourself the space and that
accountability and thecompassion is the thing that
kind of drove you to write yourbook as well?
Yes.
Yes,
SPEAKER_02 (55:09):
it is.
And writing the book has been atwo-year process.
It has been hard.
I did not expect for it to be sohard.
It was painful at times.
I had to hire a co-author tohelp me.
She has been amazing.
We And she knew nothing aboutthe Mormon church when we got
(55:33):
started.
And the way that we met was onTikTok.
And I was on TikTok.
She wasn't on my account.
But I just started.
I was so frustrated writing mystory.
I just decided, I'm going tostart telling about this magic
underwear that I used to wear.
And I'm just going to tell allthe secrets.
And I'm going to tell my secretname.
And I'm just going to go on
SPEAKER_01 (55:51):
TikTok and do it.
SPEAKER_02 (55:52):
And I did.
I just got on there and I go,yeah, were you Mormon?
And what was your secret name?
Because mine was Claudia and I'mnot going to hell.
And I just did that.
Wow.
(56:30):
that is that there was a guy onthere that followed me when I
started my new account.
And he told me, he said, I wantto pay for your book.
I want to help you.
And he said, and I have somebodyin mind.
And so I'd like to contract herto do your story.
And then he started telling mehow we're going to do it.
(56:52):
He said, we're going to makethis about Vegas.
We're going to do this.
He said, I grew up Mormon.
We're going to do this.
We're Tell me what to do in mylife.
This is baloney.
And that's what I told him.
I just said, you know what?
I don't feel good about this.
I don't like you telling me whatI'm going to put in my book.
(57:15):
And it doesn't feel right.
And also, I can pay for my ownbook.
So I appreciate the gesture.
Very nice.
But this is not the way I wantto go.
And he also said to me in thatconversation, And I thought,
(57:35):
here we go.
(58:00):
Yeah, I agree with you.
I don't want to use this guy.
I'm willing to pay you directly.
(58:22):
Do you still want to do it?
I mean, I appreciate the factthat he helped us find each
other.
I know you guys are kind ofinvolved in a relationship.
I just want to keep thatseparate.
And she said, what?
I'm not involved in arelationship with him.
In his dreams.
And we both started cracking up.
We were dying laughing.
We're like, perfect example ofhow men play women.
SPEAKER_01 (58:43):
And
SPEAKER_02 (58:45):
you know what?
So I just paid her the money andwe cut him out like just go away
and quit messing with both ofus.
And it was awesome.
That's how we found each other.
And we did Zooms for the firstyear.
And then we got together andstarted literally compiling it
into the chapters and thenperfecting it.
And it's called A Piece of Me,Finding My Voice After
(59:07):
Mormonism, Marriage, Medicine,and Men.
And so I
SPEAKER_00 (59:11):
love it.
Yeah, yeah.
Like you're really one of thoseexamples of someone who's turned
their pain into you know into astory that is um just just so
powerful like it's so meaningfulin its in its own sense as well
like you know so you know hugeprops to you that means so much
SPEAKER_02 (59:33):
that's my hope and I really feel like it will
resonate with people I reallyreally do I think more so with
women yeah but I think anyonewho reads it I mean it doesn't
help that it's hot pink you knowyeah but I I really think anyone
reading it will be able to finda piece of themselves in it and
(59:55):
learn, first and foremost,self-compassion and then
compassion for the world aroundthem.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00:02):
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that.
Susie, thank you so much forbeing on Multispective and being
vulnerable with us today.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00:09):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for theopportunity.
It is such a pleasure to meetyou.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00:18):
If you enjoyed the episode and would like to help
support the show, please followand subscribe.
You can rate and review yourfeedback on any of our platforms
listed in the description.
I'd like to recognize our guestswho are vulnerable and open to
share their life experienceswith us.
Thank you for showing us we'rehuman.
Also, a thank you to our teamwho worked so hard behind the
scenes to make it happen.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:39):
The
SPEAKER_00 (01:00:42):
show would be nothing without you.
I'm Jenica, host and writer ofthe show, and you're listening
to...
multispective.
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