077 Traumatic Childhood to Prison Time: Shaun McClure

Shaun’s journey is one of pain, survival, and ultimately, self-healing. Bullied as a child, beaten down emotionally and physically, he grew up feeling repulsive, unwanted, and angry. As a child he was jailed and over the next 25 years, he found himself trapped in a cycle of burglary, car theft, and incarceration.

But prison didn’t just hold him—it woke him up.
 Shaun fought for access to books and immersed himself in psychology. He found unexpected wisdom among the “lifers” who had built purpose into their permanent sentences. For the first time, Shaun began to understand his trauma, and how it shaped the choices that landed him behind bars.

This episode is raw, honest, and deeply human. It's not just about crime—it's about the power of reflection, resilience, and redemption.

🎧 Listen now to hear how Shaun began breaking the cycle from the inside out.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
I was 12 years old.
We weren't here for two monthsbefore my mother had to kill her
boyfriend defending herself.
And it tore me up, you know.
I didn't know what was going on.
All I knew is I heard thegunshots.
At school, they told me that Iwas educationally retarded.

(00:22):
Turns out I'm on the other endof the scale.
I'm closer to genius, but theydidn't know.
Sean.

SPEAKER_00 (00:58):
Welcome to Multispective.
I am so excited to have you hereon air with us.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03):
Yeah, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05):
I think that your story, in a sense, really is the
embodiment of sort of likesharing about men's mental
health and how it sort of cameto you as well at a little bit
of a later stage in your ownlife, right?
Where are you from?
Where are you raised?
You know, your family situation.
Yeah.
Where does it begin for you?

SPEAKER_01 (01:22):
So, I try not to admit it, but I'm from
California.
I was actually born inBakersfield, California.

SPEAKER_02 (01:30):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (01:32):
Had a really large family.
They're all rednecks.
Bakersfield is where everyonethat was in the Dust Bowl in
Oklahoma and Texas came to.
They all went out there.
So we had a really big family,really rural country family.
And I grew up pretty well.
But we left.
And when we left was a big partof my trauma.

(01:55):
Right away, we left Californiaon a, We flipped a coin.
My mother did.
She was escaping her boyfriendthat was beating her, and my dad
stayed out in the car all nightwith a gun watching him, but
they flipped a coin.
It was either Alaska orCalifornia, or Alaska or

(02:15):
Arizona, and we ended up inArizona in 89.
I was 12 years old.
We weren't here for two monthsbefore my mother had to kill her
boyfriend defending herself.

SPEAKER_00 (02:27):
And this is the same boyfriend.

SPEAKER_01 (02:30):
Yeah, the same boyfriend.
So I don't know exactly whathappened.
I've never really talked to mymother about it.
But I think there's a fairchance that this guy was the
best friend to the other guythat she ran from.
So there may be more to thestory there.
But after we got to Arizona, hestarted beating my mother.

(02:50):
One night.
And it just ended up in himbeing shot.
All of my cousins were told thatmy mother and him are in a car
wreck and he passed away.
But that's how beat up she was.

SPEAKER_02 (03:03):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (03:06):
Yeah, that was 12 years old.
And I'd already suffered throughother trauma.
I kind of got off track on that,but I'd already been molested by
a female cousin.
And we took that a lotdifferent.
So that's a big part of men'smental health.
So with us, it wasn't amolestation.
It was a score.
A

SPEAKER_00 (03:28):
score.

SPEAKER_01 (03:28):
Yeah.
So we were, you know, I waseight years old.
So we're like, oh, yeah, that'ssexual peak.
You know, we were proud of that.
not knowing how it would affectus or that it would affect us.
I don't know if it did affect myother cousins, but it's not
something we talk about.

(03:49):
But we went through that, andthen I was bullied.
When I started school in Arizonaafter the murder, I ended up
being a social pariah.
I went through all of my schoolyears.
I never had a date, never had agirlfriend, none of that.
I was so bullied, I would shutdown.
I wouldn't know what to say.
I'd just lock up.
I didn't know how to come upwith a comeback.

(04:11):
And finally, I'd wait until theylaid hands on me, and I'd just
unleash.
And then I'd get in trouble forit.
And actually, the first twotimes I was arrested was for
beating up adults when I was achild who were picking on

SPEAKER_00 (04:29):
me, even though they assaulted me first.
And then it's like life's way ofsaying, what are you going to

(04:49):
make out of it?
At the age of eight, when you'reonly starting to make sense of
like the world, you're beingmolested.
Bam.
This is the very first thingthat you're kind of
understanding of like, okay,this is how I guess it's meant
to be.
And oh, we're supposed to takepride in sex because that's what
everyone is talking about.
And so, yay, like, yay me.
I had a sexual experience,obviously at that point, not

(05:09):
understanding that actually thisis a form of molestation.
At 12 years old, again,something really big happening.
Did you witness your mom shootyour dad?

SPEAKER_01 (05:19):
Yeah, the boyfriend, yeah.
I didn't see him get hit, so Iwas pushed out of the trailer
right as it happened.
My brother pushed me out andsaid, go get help.
And I ran house to house,beating on doors, trying to get
it open.
And it took like the fourthhouse before someone let me in.
And then she wouldn't let meback out.

(05:41):
And I was really freaking out.
I grew up country values.
You do what your elders tellyou.
You don't talk So this old ladytold me to sit down and be quiet
and wait.
And I did.
And it tore me up.
I didn't know what was going on.
All I knew is I heard thegunshots and that was it.

SPEAKER_00 (05:58):
You mentioned that your brother was there.
He was in the trailer this wholetime.
What happened to him?
Does he recall witnessing it?
How old was he at

SPEAKER_01 (06:07):
the time?
He was two years older.
And he stepped in the way.
So first, he was trying to tellme to go back to sleep.
And I ran back.
I ran outside and I wasn't goingto sleep.
I was going to go help.
And then when the boyfriend cameafter me, then my brother got in
between us.
And it had been a whole thing.
And they pushed me out.

(06:28):
And for some reason, that guyhad the gun and thought it was a
smart idea to put the gun on thetable between him and my mother.
We grew up around guns.
My dad was a gunsmith.
Every one of us is very wellversed.
It was actually her gun.
My father gave it to her forprotection.

SPEAKER_00 (06:43):
I just want to know a little bit more about your mom
and how she felt.
found herself in these kind ofcycles of relationships.
Do you know very much about herpast and her childhood?
Well, I don't think

SPEAKER_01 (06:53):
it, for her, it wasn't a cycle.
She went from my father to aboyfriend.
And I don't know if theboyfriend and the friend thing,
if there was anything.
It's just really weird how mymom moved in with the boyfriend
immediately.
We left together.
The boyfriend's friend.
So that it's, I haven't reallydelved into that.

(07:13):
But she did end up with a bunchof, a few boyfriends that
weren't the best.
And I think it just comes downto codependency, you know,
having someone that's takingcare of you.
Cause my, you know, my fatherwas an atypical breadwinner and
my mother, the housewife, theden mother and all that, you
know, but it didn't have thebest values, the best goals or
anything.
Who knows what they werethinking?

(07:33):
It's the seventies, eighties.

SPEAKER_00 (07:36):
Right.
That's true.

SPEAKER_01 (07:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (07:37):
Were you pretty close to your mom?

SPEAKER_01 (07:41):
Uh, yeah, we're fairly close.
We weren't, we're close family,close knit family.
We weren't real, uh,affectionate.
We're not huggy, lovey, touchy,especially me.
But I think that's more from allmy time, all my prison time.

SPEAKER_00 (07:56):
So walk me through this.
So you'd been molested at eightyears old.
This was never really somethingthat you shared with too many
people.
I mean, it was your cousin andyou basically that knew or were
there other people

SPEAKER_01 (08:09):
around?
All of our cousins knew.
I don't know if we all knew thatwe knew until later, but But I
knew of two of my cousins thathad.
And then when I mentioned it tomy brother, he said, well, we
all were.
And so I guess he had as well.
She was 19 and she was anadopted cousin, foster cousin

(08:31):
that had stayed with the familyafter she turned 19.
It took a long time tounderstand how it really
affected me.
And that's, you know, that'slater in the story, but it took
a long time to put the piecestogether because it's not
something that's obvious, youknow, You know, something
that's, you know, I'm not awoman hater or beater or sexual

(08:52):
predator or anything.
You know, any of these otherthings that could have happened,
it manifested itself in its ownform of codependency or its own
yearning for acceptance.
You know, because I was at thesexual peak and it went down to
the very bottom all the way upuntil still going through there.
You know, still, and I figuredout that's why a lot of people

(09:15):
recidivate and why they go backto drugs, why they go back to
alcohol, is because they don't,they seek, and I use it in
speech sometimes, that sometimesI tell them, I know what my
problem is, it's women.
I say it jokingly, really whatit is, it's the need for women,
it's codependency, it's not justsex, it's having someone to
share someone with, a couple,you know, all these things.

(09:38):
And younger, it was about thesex, the companionship, the
need, you know, I've done allthis, and now I can't get
nothing.
So where do you go to find aneasy woman?
Where do you find a womanwilling to sleep with you?
Well, it's a bar.
It's doing drugs.
It's doing this and that.
People are going through thesame mental health or drug

(09:59):
issues that you are, so that'swhere you're going to gravitate
to again.

SPEAKER_00 (10:02):
Right,

SPEAKER_02 (10:03):
right,

SPEAKER_00 (10:03):
yeah.
And then so you kind of go backinto that same cycle, that same
circle of people, and it's justyou kind of find yourself doing
the same things again, and nextthing you know, you're back in
the system, and you're comingback out, and you And the
hardest part about it is like,you know, even for individuals
coming out of prison, they wantto break through and kind of
move into a different circle anda different kind of lifestyle.

(10:25):
But it's hard because, you know,then these other communities are
not as welcoming as well.
There's not so many companies,organizations, people, groups
that are open arms.
Come on in.
You know, you've come out of thesystem.
We hope and we believe thatyou're willing, you want to
change.
And like, let's help you.

SPEAKER_01 (10:43):
Yeah.
Luckily, there's more.
There's definitely more peopleand more organizations.
Unfortunately, I'm learning theydon't work together as well as I
like because there's friends onmy page that I've reached out to
that are doing the same thing.
They're doing prison reform.
They're doing speeches.
They're doing recovery work.
They're doing podcasts.
And there's three specificindividuals that all work with

(11:06):
the same organization.
They haven't gotten back to meat all.
And I'm 90% sure why.
And it's because...
everything is so, I want to sayloaded, or everyone's so worried
about what everyone else isdoing.
So me being part of NAMI,they're worried about NAMI's
values, their agendas, theirthings that they accept.

(11:29):
They're a religious-basedorganization, so they don't have
the same view on mental healthas others do.
But there are changes.
There are people accepting.
Like I said earlier, this town'sreally accepting me.
I'm actually the I've rented thelower level of the house of the
former mayor.
After the last election, hedidn't get reelected, but the

(11:53):
mayor is one of my friends.
The city councilman is a friend.
Chamber of Commerce, I havefriends on there.
And then they made me thepresident of the nonprofit here,
of NAMI.
I'm actually their president.

SPEAKER_00 (12:04):
Hey, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 (12:06):
They've all accepted me because I'm putting in the
work.
They see me trying to do it.
And that's what's driven meforward.
That was one of the that Irealized while I was inside.
I was always a peer facilitatorof some sort, a peer instructor.
And I thought I was faking it,and I was for a long time.
But really what it was ison-the-job training.

(12:26):
I'd always do my best when I wasin those roles because I had to
educate myself to help them.
I had to represent myself acertain way to show them.
So I was faking it.
Even when I was still messing upand in those roles, I would
still do everything I could torepresent it the best that I
could.
And it finally seeped throughand I learned a lot now when I

(12:51):
got out this, because I alwaysthought I wasn't qualified.
I didn't have the credentials.
I didn't have the education.

SPEAKER_02 (12:56):
And

SPEAKER_01 (12:57):
then this time I got out there like, yeah, you got
war wounds.
You're who we need.
And now that's what I'mutilizing.

SPEAKER_00 (13:06):
And you know, a lot of the times it's like, you
know, you mentioned that you'refaking it for a while and
sometimes that's what it is.
It's like you just got to do themotions of what is asked and
then at some point without evenunderstanding or realizing at
what point you started tointernalize it.
You started to make it a part ofyour identity and your
personality and you connect withit on such a level that it

(13:26):
becomes real.

SPEAKER_01 (13:27):
And that's the same thing with goal setting.
It's the exact same process forsetting and achieving goals.
You're going to make a littlestep and just keep on doing it.
Say you want to go to the gym.
Just go to the parking lot.
You make it to the parking lot,that's an achievement.
Count that.
If that's what you need to do,make it to the parking lot.
Pretty soon you're going to goin there and it's going to be
like, all right, I got to getthree sets.

(13:48):
And you're going to realize,dang, now I've got goals of
that.
I got to get these sets and I'ma jam right now.

SPEAKER_00 (13:53):
So I do want to go a little bit more into your story.
So you mentioned that, you know,all of this was happening.
What was the kind of cause ofyou being

SPEAKER_01 (14:00):
bullied?
Why were you sort of the target?
There's one specific reasonrelated to a famous person's
niece.
I don't know if it's true ornot, but I tried to get her aunt
fired and she broke my nose inthe middle of the plot during
the sixth grade.
And ever since then, I was, likeI said, a social pariah.
But I also have bad teeth and abad nose.

(14:23):
And there's a lot that I didn'trealize about that for a long
time.
So people would make fun of meabout being a mouth breather,
about bad teeth, about my nose,the way I sound, all this.
Well, I didn't realize until wayinto prison, I can't breathe out
this side of my nose.
So if I have the littlest sinusproblem, I'm a mouth breather.

(14:43):
And then I have an overbite.
There's a couple of things thatwere real misses.
And one was not getting my nosefixed twice.
So you're just going to break itagain.
So they didn't fix it.
And the other was my teeth.
I had a retainer and I lost ittwice.
But those two things were thebiggest.
And it's still big.
I can't get a date because ofit.
I haven't had a relationship ineight years.

(15:05):
I've been free for three.
It's one thing I've come toaccept that Generally found
unattractive and almost repulsedby women.
I just had to come to acceptthat I'm enough.
Because the only ones that haveaccepted me are the ones that
have been on drugs.
And this time I've raised mystandard where I'm not going to
go to the bar and pick up awoman.

(15:25):
I'm not going to sleep with awoman on the first time I meet
her.

SPEAKER_00 (15:27):
I've done episodes previously in the past with
people who've sort of been inrelationships, but very toxic
relationships or foundthemselves in just these cycles
of relationships that were justnot right for them.
And, you know, one of the thingsthat a lot of them said was, you
know, one thing I had to do waschange that narrative for
myself.
I had to start loving myselfenough for me to start

(15:51):
attracting the right kinds ofpeople, the people that I wanted
that were truly going to be goodfor me.
So the moment I started to say,I'm not going, I'm going to
start saying no to people thatare not right for me.
I'm going to draw boundarieswhere I need to draw them.
And in that time, spend as muchtime doing the self-care, the
self love, the meditation, theyoga, doing whatever it takes to

(16:13):
kind of give yourself that graceand that love that you need,
you're already kind of on thatstep of like, hey, this is what
self-love looks like for me.
This is what my boundaries areand I'm going to stick to that.
So that's

SPEAKER_01 (16:25):
really commendable.
And I take it a step furthertoo, because I can't set these
standards for the woman I wantand not have standards for
myself.
So the way I look at it is, allright, if this is the woman I
want, who would the woman I wantwant to be with?
Who would they find acceptable?
What standards would they findacceptable?
And I have to reach thosestandards because the woman I

(16:48):
want to be with is not going towant to be with a scrub.
She's not going to be with someguy that's vegging out watching
video or playing video games andwatching movies all day.
The woman I want is going to bewith a guy that's working,
that's grinding, that haspurpose in his life.
So I try and keep myself tothose standards as well.

SPEAKER_00 (17:06):
Yeah.
Now, when you first initially,like reached out to me, you'd
mentioned that you'd been in andout of the prison system for 25
years.
Am I right?
Yes, ma'am.
And all of these were, you know,regarding or happening because
of drugs and assaults and, youknow, kind of bits of violence
here and there.
Can you kind of walk me throughit a little bit from the very

(17:28):
beginning?

SPEAKER_01 (17:30):
Yeah.
Well, most, all the violence isusually, except for one time,
was towards me.
The only time it wasn't was whenI was high and I thought someone
stole some money from me.
Yeah.
And he didn't.
It was really bad.
For the most part, I'd alwaysjust been stealing to support my
habit or just being dumb.
You know, in Oklahoma, I wasjust stealing cars.
I'd be stealing cars.

(17:50):
I wasn't even selling them.
I was just joyriding them.
And the first time we did aburglary at a bar, me and my
friends, so we could get somemeth and I got caught.
They gave me six months.
I got out and had to doprobation.
They said I never checked in.
I did.
So they violated me, put me infor three.
Well, they gave me three and ahalf years.
Then they gave me the sixmonths.

(18:12):
But I kept going in and out, inand out.
And there's no actionable effortat reducing recidivism or trying
to help us.
It was, you stop doing drugs,get a job, and you'll be all
right.
That's the extent of their help.
And maybe not even that.
Back then, it was just stuffingon the yard.

(18:32):
And I really started educatingmyself.
Really, it started out withfaking it until I make it.
I got a job as a typing tutor,and I had no idea.
I couldn't type 25 words aminute.
But I got this job because itwas a high-paying job.
It was 50 cents an hour.
My buddy was like, hey, I canget you this job.
I was like, we'll teach you totype.

(18:53):
As you go, I was like, allright.
So that's kind of how itstarted.
I kept getting those good jobs,and I'd teach myself as I'd go
along.
But I'd get right back out, andI'd do good for a week, two
weeks, get a paycheck, and it'stime to try and find a woman And
I started getting high, gettingdrunk, and never would.

(19:13):
I just partied.
The excuse was, I'm going toparty because I need to meet
somebody.
And I just partied and ended uphaving to steal something to
support my habit because therewas no functioning addiction for
me at that time.

SPEAKER_00 (19:26):
That's so fascinating.
So I went in for six months.
I find it really fascinatingthat your motivation was to find
a partner, to find a woman.
And that was why you were takingdrugs as opposed to sort of, you
know, for a lot of people beingthe other way where they're
driven by the addiction ofdrugs.
I need to find the drugs.
And then, you know, like womanand all would be sort of like a

(19:47):
part of that whole journey, butit was the other way around for
you.
Would you say that you wereaddicted to drugs at any point
or not so much?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (19:56):
I don't think it is as deep as I thought it was.
I think it is more of the mentalhealth stuff.
Right.
You know, because all of myaddictions, I never really tried
to get rid of them, but themoment I really tried, they fell
away.
Like, tobacco, one of mygreatest ones I kicked, I kicked

(20:16):
while I was inside.
I was like, I'm done with thisstuff.
I got some lozenges, bam, it'sdone.
I haven't had an urge sincethen.
Same with methamphetamine.
I was in and out.
When I had I had thebreakthroughs like, all right, I
was studying psychology.
I was in prison.
And the second time, I'm alwaystrying to teach myself.
You had to fight for aneducation in there.
And I fought, I wish I foughtlike that when I was in school.

(20:38):
I was in remedial classes inschool.
They told me that I waseducationally retarded is the
way they said it.
And it turns out I'm on theother end of the scale.
I'm closer to genius, but theydidn't know.

SPEAKER_00 (20:51):
What was the prison system like for you?
The few times they several timesthat you were in there.
Did you make friends?
Did you find that you wereseeing the same people again and
again?
Did you feel like it was, in away, good for you?

SPEAKER_01 (21:08):
In 25 years, it's a lot.
I've run the gamut.
I've been in dungeons, and I'vebeen in really, really nice
places.
I've been...
you know, bullied and lame onone yard to one of the shot
callers on another.
Just going back and forth,depending on the yard, depending

(21:29):
on the situation, depending onwhere I was at the time.
Because there were times when Iwas addicted in there.
And then there were times I justwasn't.
Generally, I did all right.
I'd have one or two friends.
And that's how most people are.
You don't have a lot of friends.
You have people that you're coolwith.
And then usually you have whatthey call a road dog or your
homie.
You usually got one good partnerthat's got your back.

(21:52):
I've had a few.
It's all different.
There's been yards where, likein Oklahoma, I was on the cowboy
crew.
I rode a horse every day forthree years.
Wow.
Yeah.
People watch Yellowstone.
I lived it.
We were out there roping,riding.
No way.
Because I tell people I grew upon the white trash side of
country.
Right.
All my family were cottonpickers and potato farmers.

(22:12):
We didn't have horses.
Right.
But the moment I got on one,they couldn't get me off.
And it actually changed thewhole trajectory of my life
because my all-encompassing goalis to have horses again.
So that's one of the pivotalthings.
So it was good.
Yeah.
The self-education, one of thethings that I really did is I
hung out with the lifers.

(22:32):
One thing you do when you getthere is you kind of figure out
who you're going to kick itwith.
You don't want to be with thetroublemakers.
You don't want to be with thesquares and lanes or the rats or
preachers.
You got to find your lane.
Well, early on, I found out minewas with the lifers, the ones
that had their crap together,the ones that knew that they had

(22:53):
to make the best of it.
And those are the ones I hungout with.
And they really drove me towardsbettering myself.
And I'd always try and...
Sun Yards had these interlibraryloans where we could order any
book from any library inAmerica.
We'd just find the book in thesecatalogs they had, write out all
the ISBN numbers, and they'dsend us the book for four

(23:13):
months.

SPEAKER_02 (23:14):
So

SPEAKER_01 (23:14):
I just had stacks and stacks.
It was...
It gave me a purpose.
And so it really helped toeducate myself.
And between that and theneverything I've done outside,
I'm a completely differentperson and nothing like what I
would have been had I ever goneto prison.
At best, I probably would havebeen some nine to fiver that,

(23:35):
you know, and it's not a badthing.
You know, people that need to dothat or enjoy doing that, but,
you know, go home, watch TV, getup, go to work and do it again.
You know, that could have beenmy life.
There's nothing wrong with Butnow I have purpose.
I'm a part of the community.
And that's because of prison.
It's oddly enough.

SPEAKER_00 (23:55):
And the other lifers that were in prison there with
you, would you say that they'reon that same journey as you
right now?
A similar journey in thatthey're not being like, you
know, reprisoned again?
The

SPEAKER_01 (24:05):
lifers aren't getting out.
Those are the ones who are nevergetting out.

SPEAKER_00 (24:11):
Oh, you mean when you say lifers, like life
sentence?

SPEAKER_01 (24:13):
Life sentence, yeah.
One of my really good buddies, Isay really good buddies because
I shouldn't because I looked uphis crime afterwards.
It's pretty gruesome.
But he came in at 15, and he wasdoing life plus 45.
What happened with him?
Well, he'd also been molested bya woman, but he dated her.

(24:36):
She was 35, and he was 15 anddating her.
But she cheated on him and brokeup with him, and he decapitated
her.

SPEAKER_00 (24:44):
Wow.
At 15?

SPEAKER_01 (24:47):
At 15.
teenagers, 35-year-olds, butbecause it was a male and a
woman, they didn't take thatinto account.
They took it as a crime ofpassion in their relationship.
Generally, the murderers.
So generally, the murderers arecrimes of passion.
Generally.
It depends on the demographic.
But for the people that I hungout with, they weren't doing
drugs.

(25:07):
They weren't doing anythingwrong.
It was usually just rage orsomething of that effect or
accidentally.
There's a couple of people thataccidentally killed their
friends that were doing life.
But those are the ones thatthey're on their spiritual
journey.
They're on their educationaljourney.
They knew that they had to makethe best of what they had.
But the ones I did hang outwith, I have a whole slew of

(25:30):
friends on my Facebook that aredoing great from all walks of
life.

SPEAKER_00 (25:35):
Can you talk to me a little bit about the mental
health aspect of it for you?
Did you ever sort of in thatprocess of unraveling what had
happened to you in yourchildhood?
Did you ever shed a tear?

SPEAKER_01 (25:47):
Not really, though.
So that's one thing I've beentalking about with people.
So they talk about men's mentalhealth.
Well, first, let me come to howI figured it out.
So like I was saying, I wasstudying psychology, and it was
actually the second time, but Iwas going over childhood
development.
And we know that a child born toalcoholic parents or a child

(26:09):
that was exposed to alcohol inthe womb is prone to have anger
issues, alcohol issues.
We know what's going to happen.
We can list out all thesedevelopmental issues that a
child's going to have from hischildhood.
We know what's going to happen.
And I was like, well...
why doesn't that apply to me?

(26:30):
No one's ever said anythingabout my childhood in any of
this stuff.
And I was like, why doesn't itapply to me?
And he's like, if it does applyto me, how?
How could my childhood haveaffected me?
And that's when I startedbreaking down each trauma.
It's like, all right, well,okay.
So if it did affect me, thenthat means something outside of
me can affect me the oppositeway.

(26:51):
That means I can improve myself.
If outside forces made me, youknow, messed up my cognitive
dissonance and my honor andeverything else, Well, outside
forces can do the same, orinside forces, you know, I can
make myself better.
And that's when I realized,like, all right, I'm going to
start telling my story, andwe'll go from there.

(27:12):
And that's kind of how itstarted.
It was just telling my story.

SPEAKER_00 (27:14):
When you started telling your story, that people
started to warm up to you alittle bit more and started to
sort of, you know, softentowards you a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 (27:22):
Oh, for sure, yeah.
It usually floors them.
They're like, what, really?
Because they don't expect it outof me, especially if they know
me at any amount of time,especially during the amount of
time that I've done.
Like, God, we couldn't imagineyou doing that much time.
Because I'm polite, I'm I'm agentleman, I open the doors, yes

(27:42):
ma'am, no ma'am, yes sir, nosir.
I try and be a consummategentleman at all times.
So a lot of people don'tunderstand that.
So anyways, once I understoodthe mental health aspect and how
it could affect me and I startedtelling my story, I was able to
start psychoanalyzing myselfmore.

(28:03):
The more that I spoke about it,the more I was able to
understand it.
The more I was able tounderstand it, the more I was
able to have hope.
And then people were feelingconnected to it.
People were resonating with it.
They're like, oh, that helps meso much because I've had so much
trauma that usually if I'mtalking to someone, I share

(28:24):
trauma with them.
And I can have a modicum of hopefor them.
That's all I care about.
If I can provide a little bit ofhope.
And that's actually one timethat I really shed a tear was– I
was speaking with our programdirector, Patty, and she had
told me about, so I do an artclass I teach once a month

(28:45):
called Creative Expressions.
It's a free art class.
Anyone can come.
We provide all the supplies, andI guide you to how to paint an
acrylic painting while tellingstories of my incarcerations, my
addictions, whatever it may be.
But she was telling me aboutthis lady who's a twin, and her
brother, was so happy because hehadn't seen her smile in so long

(29:11):
and she bought paints and didthis and that.
It just touched me so much howhappy it made him.
It made me cry.
It shows me that I'm doing whatI'm supposed to be doing, that
I'm having an effect.
But going back to men's mentalhealth, and that's one thing, a
project that I'm working on isMan Up About Your Mental Health.

(29:35):
People say it's okay to cry, butit's okay not to cry too.
We can be men about our mentalhealth.
We can be masculine.
We can be warriors.
We can be strong.
We don't have to shed a tear.
You can.
It'll help, but you don't haveto.
You don't have to be vulnerable.
You just have to talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 (29:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (29:55):
It's something still in development.
Just man up about your mentalhealth because you don't have to
be vulnerable.
Especially because we'redesigned or the way we were
evolved or however you want tosay it, as warriors, as
protectors, as hunters,gatherers, this is our core.

(30:16):
So vulnerability is notsomething that's natural to us.
So we don't have to...
It should be a requirement tomake ourselves vulnerable.
But there's a way there.
You start out gently and thenyou build a connection.
It's really important,especially for men in prison.

(30:38):
That's one thing I wanted towork on.
It's really hard for me now.
I'm learning that my PTSD behindincarceration is stronger than I
thought.
But I was going to work on men'smental health in prison, but
it's just a real struggle for meto do it.
anything with law enforcement.
One of the programs I teach andI teach in high schools is

(31:00):
called Ending the Silence.
It's a mental health programabout the stigma behind talking
about suicide or emotions or anyof those natures.
One of the things that I thoughtwas really powerful is if we do
the SAM program in prison so theparents have something to talk
about with their child so thatthey can help guide their child

(31:21):
and their child can help guidethem.
But right now, it's just not onmy path for me to go back to
prison.
Like I said, I was arrestedtwice when I shouldn't have been
and held illegally once.
When I did the 14 years inOklahoma, they lost jurisdiction
over me.
They ignored the ruling of ahigher court and they had no

(31:42):
jurisdiction to sentence me orhold me.
But they still did.
I did everything.
That's one thing I say.
Mental health is not an excusefor the things that you've done.
I've done everything that theysaid I'd done and I paid the
price for it.
There's no excuse.
I made the choices.
But they held me illegally for14 years.
They lost all jurisdiction overme.

(32:03):
So it's kind of hard for me towillingly go back into that type
of situation.
I had a chance to go to Mexicoto one of the Puerto Vallarta or
some beach place, I couldn't doit.
I couldn't deal with the thoughtof going through the security
checkpoint and they're like, ohyeah, hey, remember this back in
1995 that you never got caughtfor?
Oh

SPEAKER_00 (32:24):
my gosh,

SPEAKER_01 (32:26):
yeah.
That's one thing I'm workingthrough.
It's really hard.
The longer that I'm out, themore fearful I am of losing what
I have.
It's not completely illogical.
But I really had to learn

SPEAKER_00 (32:43):
to reign it in.

(33:10):
Right.
And they

SPEAKER_01 (33:15):
know that.
So I actually did go to onething.
It is a trigger for me, but itis.

UNKNOWN (33:21):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (33:22):
the Gila County Youth Violence Summit, the first
annual one, where they reallywanted to talk about youth
violence in rural communities.
And I went to that, and one ofthe things they said was they
know that the more that youinteract with a child in a legal
way, you know, it was copsarresting or anything like that,
the more you interact with them,the more likely they are to go

(33:44):
to prison.
Really?
So that's good now, but it'swhat happened to me.
The more and the more isinevitable.
So once you've been through it,it's very likely too.
And some people, they associateit with maliciousness, but the

(34:08):
way I look at it is every cop islike everyone in your office.
So imagine you work in a largeoffice that you may have worked
at one time.

SPEAKER_02 (34:17):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (34:18):
Imagine if all those people were cops.
Now imagine them doinginvestigations.
Imagine those people filingreports.
Imagine those people cuttingcorners, doing things wrong, not
really even caring.
And what kind of actions mayhappen, you know.
Right.
They're going to take the easyway out at anyone else's expense
because they're lazy or theydon't care, you know.

(34:38):
It's damn if you do, it's damnif you don't.
I don't know what the answer is.
Yeah.
We've been having legal issuessince the Greeks, you know.
Aristotle was Complaining aboutprisons and incarceration and
the way that we dealt with thosetypes of situations.

SPEAKER_00 (34:52):
Can you tell me, if you're comfortable delving into
it, how has Trump coming intopresidency affected things for
you?
Or has it?

SPEAKER_01 (35:05):
It hasn't really, other than I've stocked up on
water and toilet paper a littlebit more.
Just because he's come in like agangbuster and you don't know
what's going to happen.
Yeah,

SPEAKER_00 (35:17):
that's kind of what I was referring to.
It's just looking out forcriminals and putting more into
the system.
There's like overcrowding in alot of prisons right now because
he's just like, yep, catch allthe criminals, put them all in.
To an extent.
So I see both sides of it.

SPEAKER_01 (35:32):
I don't know.
I really don't get into politicsbecause my sphere of influence
is mental health and addiction.
He does things I agree with.
He does things I don't agreewith.
One thing I definitely need tosay is they need to have a
filter for him.

(35:54):
It is kind of scary, you know,some of the stuff when they talk
about getting rid of funding.
I don't know who to believe.
So one thing I learned inprison, We used to watch a lot
of news.
So I watched a speech fromTrump, and this is during his
first presidency.

(36:15):
Immediately, I watched the newsafterwards.
And they chopped it up and saidsomething completely different
than what he just said.
And I just watched it.
I was like, that's not what hesaid.
That's not even what he'simplying.
So what are you doing?
So the thing that I learned isyou have to watch five news
stations, read five papers, do abunch of research, and then come
up with an educated decision onyour own.

(36:37):
Because everyone's got an agendaon what they're pushing.
And it's so bad because itseparates us, it divides us, it
takes us away from the thingsthat really matter.

SPEAKER_00 (36:50):
Did you ever seek therapy or any kind of
professional help and guidancethrough your journey, through
your mental health journey?

UNKNOWN (37:00):
No.

SPEAKER_01 (37:00):
No, not at all.
Even though that's one of mygears.
I have this whole gears ofmental health, but one of them
is seeking help.
By the time I figured it out,honestly, I knew everything.
I'd been through so much.
I knew what I needed to do.
Though I do want to seek it now.
I don't know how to do it.
I need to figure it out becauseI don't have insurance.

(37:22):
Just to work through it.
Just so I can be more effective.
And there's not a whole lot ofhelp other than each other.
And that's one of the reasons Ifigured out why I talk so much.
It's because we talk to eachother in there so much.
We have books, but there's someplaces where if you're in the
hole, you may run out of booksfor six out of the seven days.

(37:44):
You don't have a book.
So you just sit there and talkthrough the window to the next
person.

SPEAKER_00 (37:48):
So is it something that they did not provide in the
prison as well, like grouptherapy or mental

SPEAKER_01 (37:53):
health?
I even created a program with acellmate.
Well, actually, I should say mycellmate created a program and I
helped him.
But it was called CART, CreativeArtistic Rehabilitative Therapy.
We made it sound really wordy tomake it sound professional.
It was a way of using colortherapy and emotions,

(38:13):
understanding how certain colorsmay affect you.
It was early mental healthawareness and we didn't know
that.
That's what we started doing inthere.
We'd get together and we'd justtalk about how these colors
together made us feel, what wethought of.
It was really just a bunch offun and playing.
That's how my creativeexpressions came about.
We would have Thinking for aChange.

(38:35):
It's one program I was certifiedto teach.
Basically, they're all cognitivebehavior programs.
It's talking it out, talkingthrough.
Most of But most of theprofessionals, not all of them,
weren't worth very much.
You know, they didn't try hard.
We've had addiction counselorsargue the effects of drugs with

(38:57):
a bunch of addicts.
Oh,

SPEAKER_00 (39:01):
gosh.
Yeah.
Oh, my gosh.
Like trying to throw a fact.
Yeah, like trying to just throwa fact at someone who's just not
going to receive it.

SPEAKER_01 (39:08):
But one of the things, and I don't know if they
realize this, but the mosteffective treatment was each
other.
Because we created our own rulesfor each other.
And those rules created values.
They created systems.
So one of the things, you know,you couldn't be called a punk or
a bitch if you had to fight.

(39:28):
You had to keep your area clean.
You had to keep your hygieneclean.
You had to talk to people withrespect.
There's all these things thatyou had to learn to do in this
community that the longer thatyou're there, they became part
of you.
And like...
Sneak thieving.
Sneak thieving is one of thebiggest no-nos.
What is that?

(39:48):
That's just stealing.
Stealing from someone.
Right.
And they call it sneak thievingbecause back in the day, it was
okay to just go take it fromthem as long as you stood up to
them and took it from them.
But the ones that would, whileyou're out getting your job,
basically burglars, that waslike the biggest no-no.
And often thought, well, that'sabout stupid.

(40:08):
So these people are brainwashingeveryone to say this stuff is
wrong when everyone's in herefor this stuff.

SPEAKER_02 (40:13):
Yeah,

SPEAKER_01 (40:14):
exactly.
I was like, why is it wrong inhere and not wrong for Joe Blow
that's out there sweating hisbutt and grinding every day to
feed his family and you're outthere stealing it?
It's okay for that?
And I was like, well, it's justnot okay at all.
It's not okay for us.
It's okay for them.
And I was like, we're justbrainwashing each other.
But it actually helps.

SPEAKER_00 (40:35):
At least build that habit, right?
Understanding that in here, ifyou do this, you're going to get
beat up.
If I do it outside, I'm probablynot going to get beat up.
I might just get away with it.
And even if I do get caught, I'mjust going to get put into
prison hard.

SPEAKER_01 (40:48):
They call it beating them off the yard.
If you get caughtsneak-thieving, there's no
rules.
That's one of those ones.
But it created more of an honorin myself, too.
The way I carried myself.
So I'm walking with my head up,my shoulders back.
And that's one of the thingsthat prison taught me that
instilled in me was the honorand belief in myself and the

(41:11):
strength in myself to give theconfidence to walk

SPEAKER_00 (41:15):
tall and

SPEAKER_01 (41:15):
proud

SPEAKER_00 (41:16):
right

SPEAKER_01 (41:18):
that's really great it's a subliminal change but
it's through those actions inthat environment that took me
from the small and weak meekperson because I never knew how
tall I was even though peopletold me that I'm tall I never
realized I'm tall I'm 6'4 and soI never really realized until I
see pictures later like man I'mway bigger than everybody but in

(41:38):
school I walked through my headstoops and no one would see me
no one knows me I didn't realizeall that until years later.
In prison, people are like, walkyour head up.
They tell you.
They kind of train you in there.
Usually, if you're lucky, peoplewill look out for you.
It's not as rough and tumble asyou think.
There's actually a lot of peoplewho root for you.

(42:03):
They want you to be better.

SPEAKER_02 (42:04):
That's

SPEAKER_00 (42:07):
amazing.
Would you say that that was thecase all across the board in all
of the prisons that you went toor

SPEAKER_01 (42:13):
Generally all over is about that way.
It depends on where you arebecause like Oklahoma, they're
more likely to rob you than theyare to help you.
Right.
Because I did a time in Oklahomaand I did a time in Arizona.
In Arizona, so everything inprison is super racially
segregated.
Everyone has to take care oftheir own race.

(42:35):
So when you get there, when youfirst get there, the whites are
going to bring a food box, cometell you the rules, tell you
what's expected of you.
And it's going to be every raceis going to do that for their,
and each one has their ownrules.
And each one looks out for eachother.
Well, in Oklahoma, it's a littlebit different.
They're a little more predatorybecause they don't have the

(42:56):
older gangs.
Like out here, we had the ArianBrotherhood and they kept
everything in line.
Or they had the Sotanos orMexican Mafia.
The older established gangs.
Oklahoma didn't.
So it was a little morefree-for-all and they didn't
look out for each other as much.
Sometimes it depends on youwere.
So like I said, I've seen thewhole gamut of Awesome to hell.

(43:20):
Oklahomans, like I said, they'retheir own thing.
It's like every yard's differentthere, whereas here they're more
uniform.
But they've always subsisted offof inmate labor since day one.
The inmates basically providedtheir own food.
They provided their ownclothing.
They transitioned away from it alittle bit, but a lot of places

(43:43):
still do it.
Colorado still has prison farms.
California still has prisonfarms.
But now they're turning into bigbusiness.
Whereas they used to supplementthe kitchen's food, now most
places that have prison farmssend that food off and we buy
lower quality food for us.
And both places actually, butespecially here, they have

(44:04):
correctional industries wherethey'll send the inmates out to
work and they get paid minimumwage.
One place takes a cut of it,another place takes a cut of it,
and then you get a little bit ofit.
So I worked for one place, SwiftTrucking, where I rebuilt big
semi trucks.
I then also worked for a placethat produced food for
supermarkets.
We made the deli foods.

(44:25):
This last time, I actually wasreleased with five grand because
I was making$3 an hour, which ispretty good when you don't have
bills.

SPEAKER_00 (44:31):
What kind of support are these prisons providing you
in terms of finding home,finding job, just reintegrating
back into the world?

SPEAKER_01 (44:40):
It used to be not a whole lot.
It used to be nothing.
At the most, they might find youa halfway house.
Now, they're getting a lotbetter at it.
Now, they're making a bit of aneffort, especially if you get to
another yard where they have asecond chance program where
they're starting to provideresume help.
There's one yard here called theSecond Chance Program, which I

(45:04):
think they still have it.
I know they're doing an artprogram there, but it's really
heavy on having everything readyfor you.
Your social security card, yourdriver's license, food stamps,
living conditions.
But it's really small, this oneyard, for this whole population.
So probably, you know, 20% ofthe population that's getting

(45:24):
out gets those services.
And not everybody wants thembecause there's a stigma behind
going to those type of yardsbecause you have to sign, what
do they call it?
I forget what it is, but it'sintegration.
You have to sign that you'llhouse another race.
And that's a big no-no inArizona.
So not everyone will go to thoseyards because of that.

(45:47):
Of course, that's why I wentstraight up there's I don't care
I'm trying to get out

SPEAKER_00 (45:51):
I wonder why they sort of do it in that way where
it's like they try to make itthey're giving an offering but
in a way where you know there'sso much stigma around it that
people don't want to even do itbut why would they do that

SPEAKER_01 (46:01):
well part of it's self-induced you know this whole
segregation which initially itwas done for protection of
everybody you know is it wasnecessary so there's a control
you have to have a governmentand it's basically a bunch of
little tiny nations and youcontrol your people we'll
control our people and we'll allget a Great.
But it's all racism.

(46:22):
It's all backfiring.
Part of the reason is funding.
They don't have the money to doit for everyone, so they make it
hard for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 (46:31):
What do you think are some of the biggest issues
that you can see with the prisonsystem in the States, and what
do you think can be done to fixthat?

SPEAKER_01 (46:40):
The biggest problem is...
not addressing the mental healthissue.
They address the drug issue.
They don't address the mentalhealth issue.
The drug issue is the result.
It's not the cause.
Or generally, it could be thecause to begin with, of course.
But generally, it's the, it's aneffect.
It's not the cause.

(47:01):
But they just, but what theyneed to do is focus on mental
health, education, and vocation.
And I've got a way that theycould do that, at least on one
complex.
We'll take Buckeye Yard here.
Buckeye has...
at least six yards on thatcompound, you know, from

(47:23):
minimums to maximum.
Each yard could be developing apart of HUD housing.
I'm not sure if you're familiarwith HUD housing.
It's like a low-income housingor a habitat for humanity.
They'll go build houses indisaster areas.
So these yards could be buildingthose and constructing those.
One yard could be the heavymachinery yard.

(47:47):
One yard could be the tradeyard.
One yard the blue-collarplanting yard, and they all have
to work together to get thesejobs done, but then throw in
food privileges.
One of the things that's clearacross the board is you can't
use food as a punishment,generally.

(48:07):
Okay, don't.
Use it as a reward.
If you're on a mess-up yard,give them Nutri-Loaf.
Nutri-Loaf is everything on yourtray, thrown into a blender and
then put back on your tray.
That's Nutri-Loaf.
Terrible.
Start out with that.
Yeah.
And then the more privileges youhad, the little bit better.

(48:30):
You're not going to staysirloins or anything, but you're
giving them good, healthychoices that they can get enough
of.
And then you're giving them theart privileges.
You have to have privilege.
You have to give them stuff thatthey're going to feel good about
and reward them.
And you have to rewrite theirvery being.
Because most people aren't likeme that are in there.

(48:51):
Most people that are in theregrew up with Way worse values.
I grew up still with values.
I went through my issues.
I had a traumatic childhood, butfor the most part, it was a
normal childhood, lovingchildhood.
But you have to think about thepeople whose mothers were crack
horse or their fathers were drugdealers or child molesters,

(49:13):
whatever it may be.
What kind of values did thischild grow up with in their
entire life?
And now they're an adultcommitting crimes and doing
drugs.
You have to rewrite all of that.
You have to get rid of all thatold person.
So you have to build new systemsin their mind.

SPEAKER_02 (49:29):
You

SPEAKER_01 (49:29):
have to create honors and values and purpose.
And one of the ways of doingthat is giving them something to
create.
Another of the triggers for meor another of the realizations
was I'm a phenomenal artist now.
When I went into prison, mystick figures looked like they

(49:52):
were having seizures.
That's The only thing I coulddraw was flies.
It was terrible.
And I used to get mad.
I literally, I would get madthat I could not draw anything.
And I had a buddy of mine, wecalled him John Wayne, who was
an awesome artist.
He could draw anything.

(50:13):
He would take pictures, like theone I remember the most was he
took three, four differentpictures and some pictures out
of a magazine and put this guyplaying poker with all these
World Series Pokers guys and hadthe ball and the bottles and the
chips, and it looked like it wasa picture.
And this guy just sat there anddid it.
Well, he told me how to drawportraits, and I never paid
attention.
It went in one ear and out theother.

(50:34):
About seven years later, when Iwas in segregation for fighting,
I tried to draw a portrait, andit came out half-assed all
right.
So I got a book, and I just kepton practicing and practicing,
and pretty soon, I'm making aliving in prison off of my art.
And I got to where I was takingmy stuff around, and I'd put
two, three hours into it, andI'd start walking around because

(50:55):
it's badass.
And I know it is.
And people are telling me, ohman, I love that.
And one day I realized, man, whydo I keep doing this?
Why am I intentionally out hereseeking approval and attention?
Oh wait, because it feels good.
I didn't get that before becauseI didn't do nothing good.
I didn't do anything to receiveattention and praise.

(51:17):
So man, that's what everybodyneeds.
They need that feeling.
So I think that's one of thethings that would really help a
person is to help them Help themfind a way to create something
that they can be proud of.
Make them feel good.
Make them feel like somethingthat's worthwhile.

SPEAKER_00 (51:33):
I kind of like validate and appreciate them for
the way that they are.
This reminds me of an episodethat I did with an individual
who talked about they reached abreaking point in their own
lives and they were sittingthere in their apartment with a
gun in their mouth, ready tojust end it.
And in that very moment, got acall from someone.
It was an old lover, an oldflame.
And that person called him andwas just like, hey, let's talk.

(51:55):
I miss you.
And he was like, that changed mylife.
Like this person had no idea Iwas literally on the verge of
killing myself.
And it was the one thing that Ineeded in that very moment was
someone outside of me to havehope and faith and belief in me.
I just found reason to liveagain.
When you don't have that and youcan't find that voice inside of

(52:17):
you, it really makes such a hugedifference to have that from
someone outside.

SPEAKER_01 (52:22):
Yeah, I was listening.
One of the podcasts I listenedto is Buja Andres Kulian, I
don't know if you've heard ofhim.
He does a lot of the reallystrong masculine stuff.
But he was talking about a showthat he did where he called a
guy out.
He's like, man, you're jacked.
You know, he's doing aninspirational speech.
I mean, you're jacked.
You're looking good, man.
Good work.

(52:42):
And that guy came up to him.
You know, he's a big buff guy.
And him and his wife came up tohim.
And his wife's like, man, youdon't know how much that meant
to him.
Because, you know, you don'tknow where a person's at.
You don't know where they're atin their mental health or in
their struggles.
And just a little compliment,just the smallest compliment can
change a person's day, theirentire outlook.

(53:03):
And it's something I try and do,you know, something intentional.
You know, be...
It's like when someone says,good morning.
Morning.
Good morning.
How are you doing?
Be a little more intentionalabout your kindness and about
your words because that personmay need it.

SPEAKER_00 (53:21):
Sean, final plug-ins.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about the work that you're
doing right now, the project?

SPEAKER_01 (53:26):
There's a couple of projects.
Right now, of course, the mainone on my plate is support on
the trails.
Like I said, I'm the presidentof NAMI, the Philadelphia here
in Payson.
It's the National Alliance onMental Illness.
And we're going to take theirproven support group, connection
support group, and take it onthe trail.

(53:46):
And we're going to hike aboutit.
We're going to get out there andwe're going to meet at the
trail.
We'll have a little gathering.
We'll talk about a subject.
We'll do like the check-in, seewhere everyone's out, and then
we're going to take off walking,enjoy the nature and scenery.
Because, you know, naturally,the outdoors just really gets

(54:07):
into your soul.
You know, you get Get away fromthe worries of work and kids and
bills and everything else andget out there in the nature
where you can breathe and talkand really let it out.
So we're going to get out thereand we're going to hike about it
and get the support group on thetrails.
Love it.
Hike

SPEAKER_00 (54:25):
about it.
I love it.

SPEAKER_01 (54:26):
And then, of course, there's my radio show.
Yes.
Stigma Shift.
It's on KRM 96.3 here in Payson.
And we stream it at krmfm.comevery Thursday at 8.
But it's really just my storiesor my views on my struggles and
how I'm overcoming them.

(54:48):
Stigma Shift came to mindbecause I'm also a mechanic.
And it's like shifting gears.
So I came up with the gears ofmental health.
It's just another way to look ateverything to another tool of
understanding.
So you hit first gear is yourawareness that there's an issue
or something going on orsomething that you need to

(55:09):
change.
You have to hit that first gear.
You have to know.
And that second gear is takingthat action.
You're seeking help.
You're looking for help oryou're reading the books.
You're watching videos.
You're taking action on theissue that you have.
And then you're going to hitthird gear.
That's when you're getting thathealing in your growth.

(55:31):
That's when you're acceptingeverything that you've been
seeking, this knowledge, thelearnings.
And then you go into fourthgear.
Fourth gear is where most of uslive.
Or when we're optimal, that'swhere we live.
That's where we get purpose andgrowth.
This is when we're reallyworking everything, but now

(55:53):
we're starting to share a littlebit.
Now we have a reason for whatwe're doing.
And the fifth gear is a fleetinggear.
This is the gear of bliss andhappiness, but like pure, pure
happiness.
We can't stay in that gearforever.
Some people do.
I mean, there are people likethat.

(56:14):
They're freaks of nature, butthere are definitely people like
that.
But you got to shift back down.
And these gears have beenhalted.
You'll go back and forth throughthem, and you may be in
different gears in differentaspects of your life.
I'm working on it.
This is an idea that I'm workingon putting in a book.
I was

SPEAKER_00 (56:32):
just about to ask you, like, you should put this
in a book.
This is like book-worthy.
So, Sean, thank you so much forbeing on Multispective and
sharing your story and yourperspective on air with us.
Yeah, super, super powerful.

SPEAKER_01 (56:45):
Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 (56:51):
If you enjoyed the episode and would like to help
support the show, please followus I'd like to recognize our
guests who are vulnerable andopen to share their life
experiences with us.
Thank you for showing us we'rehuman.
Also, a thank you to our teamwho worked so hard behind the
scenes to make it happen.

SPEAKER_02 (57:11):
The

SPEAKER_00 (57:15):
show would be nothing without you.
I'm Jenica, host and writer ofthe show, and you're listening
to Multispective.

UNKNOWN (57:24):
Multispective Bye.