How I recovered from a heroin addiction

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:04):
I was seeing drugs, I was seeing police
interventions, I was seeing sortof gang culture, I was seeing
robberies and then burglariesand fighting.
We drink aware problems, wesmoke aware of problems,
drinking was increasing in myhouse, uh, drug use was uh
increasing in my house.
I was thinking to myself at 13and 14, I need to get out of

(00:26):
here.
But heroin, it was safe, it waswarm, it was exactly what I
needed at 19 just to shut outeverything else.
I'm staying there for the next17 years.
I've used I has a Palmer Valleyon top, I nearly accidentally
OD'd tube station, train wascoming towards me, and I was a

(00:48):
consideration of thinking justto jump in front of that.

SPEAKER_02 (00:57):
Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood?
Where were you born, where wereyou raised, and what was your
childhood like?

SPEAKER_00 (01:04):
From a UK perspective, I'm a little bit of
a hybrid.
I have a Scottish tinge to myaccent.
So I grew up and went to schoolin Edinburgh, the capital city,
Scotland.
But I was actually born inEngland and lived there until I
was about the age of one and ahalf through a sort of uber
nationalist Scottish filter.
Um I'm a little bit a traitor inthat regard, but actually it

(01:26):
gives me quite a nice balance,like understanding a little bit
about English culture and whatthat looks like, but then also
having that sort of schooling inScotland and everything that
that comes with that as well.
So there's like a real fierypassion stereotypically.

SPEAKER_02 (01:40):
Why do you say though, that like there is this
kind of traiterness to it?
Like, what's the deal with that?

SPEAKER_00 (01:45):
Well, I think if you look at it through a historical
filter, England are theoppressor, right?
Um and Scotland's like thelittle country on top.
England's the one that holds allthe power and holding all the
money and then the control andthen the the sort of uh I
suppose the political power aswell.
Whereas like we're the littlecountry, we're only five million

(02:06):
people, but then what thatbrings, as I said, it brings
that kind of real passion andreal fire, and then makes you
probably fight harder than youneed to do sometimes, which
manifests in different ways asyou get older.
But I kind of like having youknow eyes on both, if you will.
Yeah, puts me in quite a quite anice position, I feel.

SPEAKER_02 (02:25):
Yeah.
So tell me a little bit morethough about how was like
schooling like, how was yourfamily situation like, siblings,
all of that?

SPEAKER_00 (02:32):
Well, I'm an only child, which is a gift and a
curse, I suppose.
I suppose it's a uh a gift isthat I learned to be by myself
real quick when I was ayoungster and didn't really need
other people for me to have fun.
But then I suppose lookingthrough, yeah, being real about
it as well.
I used to sort of want a brotheror really want a sister.

(02:53):
So as I said, it's that kind ofgift in curse aspect.
Growing up, I grew up, uhgrandparents were like um
tradespeople, so they theyworked um in in opticians and
they were like real rocks for megrowing up.
And at the time, I remember evenmy earliest memory is about
three or four, being at mygrandmother and grandfather's

(03:15):
house, eating well, gettinglooked after, getting spoiled.
And then my mum at the time, shewas like a business owner and
had a beautiful house.
I suppose we lived um, I wouldsay, uh a middle class life.
It was quite idyllic in a way,and everything was kind of
cooking along nicely, and thenyou know, one of these life

(03:36):
moments happens.
Yeah, she met somebody who was alittle bit rougher, a little bit
readier, but a bad boy,unfortunately.
And yeah, she ended up having anaffair with him, and then from
there we lived this kind ofrogue bad boy lifestyle, which
was an offshoot of that malepersonality.
So then I ended up living in theUK we call it a council estate.

(03:58):
We lived in like a big high-risebuilding.
I was a nice kid in invertedcommas, and then I was
surrounded by kids who maybedidn't have as much access to
things for want of a betterphrase.
Um, and that was a real toughtransition.

SPEAKER_02 (04:13):
Looking back on things, you probably might may
not have realized this when youwere younger, but maybe looking
back on it now, feel like youcould sense that things were off
between your mum and dad?
Was there some kind ofrelationship problems going on
between them?

SPEAKER_00 (04:27):
Yeah, my dad was gone by the time I was like one
and a half, so this would havebeen sort of my my stepdad, if
you will.
And I actually caught my mumkissing the rogue bad boy behind
the shop that she owned with theguy as well.
And I think I was maybe likenine, I've got this distinct
memory walking around, and youknow, she's like kissing this
guy.
Yeah, I don't see kissing likethat on a on a television show.

(04:49):
I was like, what are you doing?
Like went crazy at her shoutingand bailing.
And then we had as thingsmanifested, yeah, she ended up
leaving and walking away fromher business, her mortgage,
everything away into this sortof other life and this other
existence.
And yeah, that 180 thing andtrying to assimilate with peers
that were really from adifferent background than me,

(05:10):
and were a lot more rough andand and ready, and taught me a
lot of things that I probablydidn't need to be taught at nine
and ten and elevenths.

SPEAKER_02 (05:19):
The risk to take to have you know a certain kind of
stability for your child, andthen to leave that kind of
stable home and that stableground for someone else for a
new love.
I'd imagine for her too, it wasan absolute shock that you saw
this and it was like now thingsare gonna have to change.
Like, what what was that likewhen you found her?

SPEAKER_00 (05:40):
Yeah, the moment itself, I'll just remember being
like really emotional and beingreally young and just not
understanding.
And I suppose after that there'sa kind of autopilot, there's a
shock, there's a kind of traumaresponse to it.
But really, where it kind of hithome, how 180 my life has
become, is that I'm then in uh asort of primary school, the last

(06:01):
year of primary school, and I'msurrounded with these kids who
are, you know, were shoplifting,burning roofs, were as I said,
it was just unruly compared tothis sort of pretty white fence,
two up, two down kind of idylliclifestyle.
And for a time that was kind ofexciting because I was learning

(06:22):
all these kind of new skills,but then when I would go to like
these kids' house for likedinner and stuff, I was seeing I
was seeing drugs, I was seeingpolice interventions, I was
seeing a sort of gang culture, Iwas seeing, you know, robberies
and then burglaries andfighting, and I was just exposed
to that level of violence andaggression, really, that that

(06:44):
sort of idyllic middle classlifestyle that I'd had, it was,
as I say, the complete polaropposite to that.
And looking back on it now, sortof I want to go back and tell
that kid it's gonna be alright,but I was just running on on
impulse.
I was just reacting to theenvironment that I was dropped
into.

SPEAKER_02 (07:02):
Yeah.
What was your stepfather's rolein this?
Did he try to keep in contactwith you, or was he also like,
okay, well, you know, this isnot my kid, so I must have been
like nine, and it was really adistinct memory.

SPEAKER_00 (07:14):
And he was like really soft-spoken guy, and he
said to me, Go live for yourgrandmother and grandfather.
That was the advice he gave me.
So there was obviously anunderstanding there that
whatever it was that the choicewas for my mum, that choice
wasn't going to be good for mein the long run.
But again, that sort of thatFreudian lens that I've sort of

(07:37):
understood as I've got older,there was no way I was leaving
my mum.
Like it, it was just wasn't onthe cards.
And there was furtherintervention points, not by him
specifically, but by mygrandfather and grandmother, as
time moved on and the situationdeveloped.
But again, I was like, nah, I'ma mummy's boy, and I'm staying
there.
Maybe it was like I could a bitof foreshadowing and I could see

(07:59):
how bad this was gonna go, andthere was a protection thing.
Then also, you know, you know,us boys and us men, right?
Who's our our best friend,right?

SPEAKER_02 (08:08):
You've now come across this new man that's
entered your mum's life.
You're angry at him because yourmom's done something very bad.
This kind of you're meeting himon on very unfortunate grounds.
What was your initial impressionof him?

SPEAKER_00 (08:22):
Well, the first thing was um I was to refer to
him as Uncle, which was like,well, and I couldn't I can't
even call him like a name.
I didn't like have a name forit.
So yeah, I just wouldn't referto him as anything.
So basically, kind of just totry I just try to ignore him as
much as possible.
So like go to school, you know,just direct all communications

(08:44):
through my mum.
Like there was no way that umthat I was gonna engage with
this person.
But then as time moved on, I gotto 11 and I got to 12 and I got
to 13, and I'm in this likereally high population area with
a lot of violence andaggression.
And somebody who comes from thatenvironment, uh, he started to

(09:05):
get more involved with me andtry to explain kind of how I was
gonna have to maneuver andnavigate this space when I was
about 11 and then 12 and 13.
But then on the left hand side,I was starting to notice that
drinking was increasing in myhouse, uh, drug use was uh
increasing in my house, and thenevery weekend, maybe starting up

(09:26):
at 11, my mum would havesunglasses on on a Saturday
morning, or she'd like move tothe side and she'd be like, Oh,
and I would be like, What thewhat's wrong with you?
Sword, or obviously that careand concern comes out.
Um, and yeah, what I know nowthat she was subject to really,
really acute uh domesticviolence that was accelerating

(09:49):
week after week as the substanceuse got more and more acute,
domestic abuse got more and moreacute, the coercion and the
control uh generally speaking.
And I suppose that was the firstwindow, and when I when I was
thinking to myself at 13 and 14,I need to get out of here.
That's the first time I'd everwanted just to just to go.

(10:10):
So, yeah, that was um adifficult realization at first,
I feel.

SPEAKER_02 (10:14):
Sounds like your mum did a pretty good job of keeping
you in the dark away from all ofthis violence, even though you
were sharing the same roof.

SPEAKER_00 (10:23):
Yeah, and she was like working two jobs and then
turning up at work, like beat upand stuff as well.
And obviously, there was concernfrom my grandparents, and and
yeah, by the time I got to like15, 16, like everybody knew what
type of person this was.
But I suppose what I understandnow, fast forward sitting here
as an adult, is that coercionand control piece, and then the

(10:46):
shame and the guilt, and thenthinking about what she'd left
behind.
I had no understanding of thatkid of how powerful that
negative magnetism is.
Um, but yeah, as I sit heretoday and having worked in that
environment with people who'vegone through similar things, I
really understand what they themechanisms are and how powerful

(11:07):
they are.
So yeah, she'd done a reallygood job at keeping it for me
for long enough, but eventually,as the as the abuse accelerated,
definitely, and it was more andmore apparent, like it couldn't
be ignored anymore.

SPEAKER_02 (11:19):
Was there any violence targeted towards you at
any point?

SPEAKER_00 (11:22):
Um, I'm quite a big unit, I would say.
So maybe like 191 centimeters.
So there was always like thisthreat of that when I was like
11, 12, 13, but when I got to14, 15, it was like yeah, I
might pick on somebody my ownsize.
Um so yeah, there was like acouple of fights, but yeah, I

(11:43):
was never really fearful of himas an entity.
I was more fearful if I dosomething, what that means is a
consequence from a mum.
So there was a control andcoercion mechanism going on with
me, even though I couldn't quitesee it at the time.

SPEAKER_02 (12:00):
Yeah.
Sort of like a dynamic where youfeel that protectiveness towards
your mum, and he is reading thatyou are very, very sensitive
when it comes to topics of yourmom.
So he would use your mom asleverage to kind of have power
over you in a sense.

SPEAKER_00 (12:59):
Yeah, which is quite complex human dynamics for
developmental tenancy, but it'sinteresting having worked in
similar environments withcomplex couples, fast forward to
like being an adult, I can seehow that works and it is a real
thing.

SPEAKER_02 (13:16):
Yeah.
They've done interviews with alot of women who've experienced
domestic violence andrelationships.
Um, and one of the common thingsthat many of them had
experienced was a sick a cycleof it, you know, from their very
first relationship and then itled on to the next and to the
next, and until they were ableto sort of really, really do
some self-work to be able tokind of create those boundaries,

(13:39):
not to allow those kind ofrelationships to enter their
lives and to be very aware andwary of them.
But you know, it's interestingto hear that with your mom, the
situation was she actually didhave fairly decently healthy
relationships.
And it was much later in herlife that she kind of found
herself being attracted tosomeone who really exhibited
those kind of abusive behaviorsand struggled to let to leave

(14:00):
it.
So I guess my question to you iswhat was your mom's childhood
and upbringing like?

SPEAKER_00 (14:05):
Yeah, I can see that sort of underneath my my
grandmother and grandfather,they were they were socialites
and she was left a lot byherself.
Um I don't know exactly, but Ido know that there was unhealthy
dynamics for other members ofthe family.
Yeah, we we've never reallydiscussed that to be honest.
And then I suppose that if ifI'm going to be totally

(14:27):
objective about it, you get themiddle class lifestyle, you've
got the quiet man who's, youknow, very consistent and very
methodical, and some peoplesometimes they they they get
bored with that, right?
They they don't see that asexciting or they're getting old,
and they want to maybe relive abit of their childhood or things
that they missed out, and theywant that spark.

(14:48):
And I have seen it with withother people as well, where you
kind of where you seek that andyou crave that, and maybe that
person doesn't give you that.
But sometimes the grass isn'talways greener, right?
And it's just reallyunfortunate.
The person she picked was anarcissistic sociopath, which
was the that that's about askind as it can be about that

(15:10):
person, you know, like uponreflection, actually look at it
through a pathological filter ora diagnosis-led filter, because
that's what it really was.

SPEAKER_02 (15:18):
Yeah, kind of looking for that real, like that
crazy push and pull, thatpassion in that relationship
where you know you're feeling sohurt and so vulnerable one
minute, but then this person isapologetic for the way they hurt
you, so they're you know, lovebombing you and giving you
everything, and you're just likedrawn into this kind of fairy
tale feeling again.
Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 (15:37):
And then just one thing uh to add to that as well
is is that sort of savior pieceas well.
Uh in my some of my adultrelationships as well.
I've I've never caught myselfquite at that acute end of
sociopathic narcissism, but Ihave seen where you're trying to
save or you forgive somebodymultiple times.
Um, I think in a certain way allrelationships go through that

(16:00):
push and pull, but this was juston the really extreme end of the
end of that case, I would say.

SPEAKER_02 (16:06):
Do you have any specific instances or moments
that when you look back on youcan really remember very clearly
that really stood out to you?

SPEAKER_00 (16:15):
Yeah, I the one I dream about to this day is like
I've got an image, and we'recertain in in central Edinburgh,
like there's a big vo a dormantvolcano, right?
And a big car.
And it's like really historic,and there's loads of like old
buildings where old queens hadtheir heads cut off and where
Queen Elizabeth used to stay,and it's like pitch black.
And there's like maybe two orthree cars, so like you've got

(16:37):
like the lights of the carscoming.
My mum's got a black and whitedress, and her hair's all over
the place, she's disheveled, andshe's running ahead of me.
And I'm running, I'm shoutingafter her.
Mum mum shouting, shouting,shouting, and she's like, I have
to get away, he's gonna kill me,he's gonna kill me.
And I'm just running after her,and we're running in the
direction towards my mygrandmother's house.

(16:58):
I think that that encapsulatesthat whole experience where I'm
literally running after her,trying to save her, um, and
seeing what that person had kindof done to her.
That's probably one of the mostdetailed memories I've got.
And I've kind of checked in withher since, and I was like, that
definitely happened, right?
Yeah, that definitely happened.

(17:18):
I was like, okay.

SPEAKER_02 (17:20):
That's really scary.
I mean, I can imagine like yourlike body goes into this
immediate shock, into thisimmediate fight or flight.
You're like in this situationwhere you're like, like it being
so visceral, that moment is justlike, I need to do something
right now.
So at this point, kind of likeliving at home, not really
liking this man, feeling alittle bit uncomfortable, but
feeling protective of your mom,and then you're in a

(17:42):
neighborhood that is not verysafe, and you're a teenager
growing up so easily influenced.
How did how did this sort oflike neighborhood that you were
in, how did how did all of thatsort of influence you?

SPEAKER_00 (17:53):
It's kind of interesting, is that a lot of my
peers who we grew up in the thesort of mid to late nine, this
wasn't a me story, so a lot ofthe household had similar
things.
So you've got disenfranchisedbackgrounds, you've got lack of
opportunities, you've got thesocioeconomic uh climate as
well, which was heavily impactedby the conservative uh

(18:14):
government in in this uh countryas well.
So you had all that draining onlocal resources, and then family
life was tough.
It was um mindfulness andwellness and all these things
like that just wasn't on thetable.
It was we cope with our problemssilently, you know, we we drink
aware of problems, we smokeaware of problems, we don't

(18:35):
really talk about things, wedon't talk about our feelings.
That culture happened quite alot, and and there was a huge
burden on suppose um on thewomen trying to hold together
these kind of familyenvironments.
Yeah, looking back on it, a lotof us went through um a similar
thing, but that doesn't kind ofnegate my own story, and I think
that a really important thing tomention, we had um we had a

(18:59):
couple of interventions from mygrandmother and grandfather
where they were starting tomaybe plant some common sense
seeds, and we moved out of thatreally high density of violence
project area or council estate,and we moved back into the city
centre.
And maybe for about six monthsthings quietened down a little
bit.
Um, I then changed schools andsort of the the people um were a

(19:24):
lot of people that I'd knownfrom really early childhood, so
I kind of gathered my senses,and this is when I was about
maybe 15 and then 16 and 17.
The sort of final insult, and Isuppose this was another pivot
point where I started to reallydeteriorate in terms of mental
health, and then I supposesubstance use was I come home

(19:44):
one day and they basically saidthat they're moving out and I'm
left in this house.
So I've got this like reallybeautiful two-bedroom house in
Edinburgh, but it's like I wasso green, like um I could cook
an egg, which is great, youknow, I could make a pot noodle,
so like I had a bed, I had amusic.
So I was like, off you go then,crack on with your life, gone,

(20:05):
go.

SPEAKER_02 (20:05):
What you went 15, 16 at this point.
Six.
That's child neglect, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 (20:11):
Yeah.
Um, but again, I was so youngand and so green, I was like, by
all means, out you go.
Yeah, that was like my bestfriend at the time, he came to
sort of live with me on and off,and then we just went off our
heads, so started to use a lotof kind of party drugs, smoking
a lot, drinking a lot, parties,craziness, all that.

(20:32):
So between 16, 17, 18, that waskind of that that was the path I
took um after that.
So I just thought, you knowwhat?
I'm done with my mom, I'm donewith this guy, I'm done with
responsibilities, I'm done withadults, like let me just let me
breathe a bit here.

SPEAKER_02 (20:48):
Your grandparents, they knew that you were living
on your own at this point.

SPEAKER_00 (20:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (20:53):
And they were also had rather you live on your own,
deal with life at the age of 16on your own, than take you on or
fight to have you to live withthem?

SPEAKER_00 (21:04):
No, they'd be begging me to live there since
since I'd um yeah, since I'dleft uh the first house we were
at.
So ages 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, Iwent there every weekend, every
weekend.
My grandma is like, please,please, please, I'm not leaving
my mum, please, not leave mymum.
It was like that sort ofpendulum.
But I think by the time I waslike 16, 17, she could see that

(21:26):
yeah, I was done with, Isuppose, adult interventions
completely.
I I just I think in some sense Iwas wise enough to say that's
enough now.
I'm drawing a boundary.
If if you lot are gonna leaveme, no problem, I'll be alright.
Little did I know.

SPEAKER_02 (21:42):
And this is sort of like this start of where it all
spirals for you because you'renot at the age at this point to
sort of like heal healthily.
Naturally, you're gonna go forwhatever you get pulled into and
you just happen to have thewrong company sort of at the
wrong time.

SPEAKER_00 (21:56):
With or without company, in a certain sense, I I
was done with up here and whatI'd seen.
I was just like over it.
It's like, let me just go dothis, and as I said, just jumped
health or leather into gettinghigh, basically.
That was the that was my way toself-medicate what I'd spent the
past like eight, nine, ten yearsgoing through.

SPEAKER_02 (22:17):
How does it sort of like spiral into something
bigger or larger?

SPEAKER_00 (22:21):
Well, for me, it was never enough, right?
So it was like amphetamines, anduh amphetamines, like they take
you to here, but then they kindof leave you at that point, and
it's like, okay, I'm high, I'mtalking too much, right?
Okay, what now?
Let me try MDMA or ecstasy,okay.
You love everybody, last forfour hours, five hours, then

(22:42):
you're coming down, andeverybody has an existential
crisis, and then you wake up,I'm like, no, I'm bored of that.
Then I tried kind ofhallucinogens, so I tried like
mushrooms and LSD and all thederivatives of that.
I would say I would classifythem separately from the other
ones that I tried, just becausethey were the only ones where I
was never like the next again.

(23:03):
They all must get more of them,or I was trying to
self-medicate.
I always went on some sort ofjourney with them, sometimes
really heavy journey as well.
But um, I always found them in acertain sense, maybe educational
was a bit strong, but definitelyinsightful, that would be a
better way for me to do it.
But then I was always steppingup the risk factor, so always

(23:26):
doing more, always tryingsomething new, and then
eventually I got to the kind oftop table substances, if you
will, or substances that areharmful.
And I think with the heroin,that was the first one that I
tried.
I was like, okay, like I candeal, I can deal with anything
now.
It was like it was safe, it waswarm, it was exactly what I

(23:47):
needed at 19 just to shut outeverything else.
So there was like um I thinkwith all substances, there's
like a little bit of a window,and with drug use, there's a
window where it's alright ininverted commas, and then
hopefully what you do is yougrow out of that and then you
put it down, and then you carryon being a sort of responsible
citizen or human being.

(24:07):
Even if like you're a weekenderand you smoke some weed or
whatever, like cool, God blessyou.
Um, but most people can kind ofput it down.
When I touched that drug, I waslike, okay, I'm just I'm staying
there for the next 17 years.
That's where I stayed.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (24:26):
17 years, and you were, you know, into heroin,
which is probably one of themost strongest kind of drugs one
can take, I guess.
But walk me through what waslife like as a heroin user.
What do you remember?

SPEAKER_00 (24:39):
Well, I started off like basically I got out of
Edinburgh, so I'd been out, I'dbeen in all that trauma,
developmental trauma.
Then I went through that sort ofparty phase, and then as I say,
picking up that drug, had thiskind of niggling feeling.
Whenever I'd sort of straightenup from it, I was like, Oh, that
was too good.
And then I was always like, Ineed to get more, and then be

(25:00):
like, oh, but if you get more,so there was still a little bit
of rationalization.
I still had a kind of angle thatthis is probably not gonna pan
out well for you, young man.
So I made the decision just toget out of Edinburgh.
So I was kind of lucky, I wasquite nerdy when it came to the
guitar as a kid.
So I picked up my guitar, I gotmy my state benefits, my welfare
check or whatever.
I think it was like 70 quid andjust come to London.

(25:24):
It's like that's what I'm gonnado.
Um, and come to London.
So for a good couple of years, Imanaged to keep the hair and
addiction to such a point.
Um, I was still functioning as amusician as well, and you know,
and managing to do like littlejobs in between just to keep up
that level of addiction and be acreative.

(25:44):
So for the first couple ofyears, pretty functional.
You know, didn't get to thepoint where I felt like I'd lost
everything.
So that first couple of yearsthere was a sort of a fluffy
window with it where I didn'treally think it was going to be
much of a problem, um, sort ofday-to-day, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 (26:01):
So at this point, like you would say you wouldn't
call yourself an addict at thispoint because you're still able
to sort of like function.

SPEAKER_00 (26:09):
Yeah, my denial was strong at that point as well.
But I again I supposeobjectively nobody knew, and I
was really secretive, whichyou'll find with addictive
creates as well.
So like I had like a little box,I kept it in my pocket, I would
wait till opportune moments andamongst these creatives where it
was like a quiet window, I'ddisappear for a minute, splash
my face, get myself together, goback, be Mr.

(26:32):
Sociable again, you know.
Um, and as I said, managed tokeep that up for yeah, a good
couple of years, maybe like two,three years.
Went to New York, played allover like UK as well.
So there there was a sense offunctionality around it, even
though inside I was probably Iwas becoming more and more

(26:52):
crippled, if you will, in termsof emotional understanding.

SPEAKER_02 (26:56):
Right.
That's so interesting becauseI've always thought that people
who take heroin, it's almostlike tranquilizing, like that
feeling is you almost go intothis state of like absolute calm
and you just kind of want to liethere.
We don't have that kind ofstrength or that energy to
function with it, whereassomething like cocaine you can
take it and you can function.

(27:16):
You can get up and you get youknow social and you have the
energy to do things.

SPEAKER_00 (27:20):
No, I had the I had these like um really interesting
jobs as well.
So like low-paid jobs, but likefor example, I worked for um
Lloyd CSB and investments, soyou'd see like all these
investment bankers, and I usedto think to myself, what are you
guys up to?
Because they're wired all thetime.
And so I'm in the toilet doingmy thing, and then they're in
the toilet doing their thing,which was the other way, and I'd

(27:42):
be and then and then what usedto happen was like you'd get
this like sort of really reallyjudgy.
It's like they would look downon the heroin user, and then
it's like, well, excuse me,well, you're in the bathroom and
you're sniffing lines, likeyeah, pretty much the same
thing, but it's reallyinteresting, and again, having
studied, I suppose, drug cultureand worked in recovery circles

(28:03):
and supported people out of uhdrug usage generally, it's
really interesting.
There is a kind of hierarchy inthe drug world as well, where
it's kind of I look down uponyou.
Oh, I'm an alcoholic, but Idon't touch drugs, so it's like
well, that's an interestingperspective to have.
But um, yeah, back then I wasable to do that sort of that
hustle culture real well andself-medicating all the time in

(28:27):
the background reallysecretively.

SPEAKER_02 (28:29):
Yeah.
I I do hear you when you talkabout it being a hierarchy,
because the hierarchy can be onso many different areas and
levels, like alcohol, justbecause just by the mere fact
that it's being sold anywhereand everywhere.
So that's almost like, eventhough it's probably just as
dangerous, if not more, justbecause it is legal and

(28:51):
regulated, it is considered tobe one of the highest forms.
Then I'd imagine like stuff likemarijuana is connected with, you
know, just this hippie kind ofculture, like, oh, chill vibes,
cocaine.
Well, that's gotta be, you'vegot to have the money to afford
that kind of like drug.
So therefore, you've got to beof a certain status and of a
certain kind of level.
And so there's almost like arole model look up to a cocaine

(29:15):
user sense in that way.
Would you agree that that's sortof how those hierarchies work?

SPEAKER_00 (29:20):
Yeah, and and you know, that and they're always
changing as well, but reallythat that sort of that classic
hierarchy is, and I've kind ofseen that sitting in therapeutic
groups as well, where againthere's that sort of divide.
And I think that some greatresearch that if you look at um,
I suppose the people who arelet's use Manhattan as a as an

(29:41):
example.
So you've got people sniffingcoke in a in a high rise in
Manhattan who are predominantlywhite and middle class, but then
you've got a black guy who'swashed it up with some ammonia
phosphate in the project.
This guy is getting X amount oftime in prison, and this white
guy's walking away with, he'sgetting away with on the
left-hand side, and there's likea really interesting split, even

(30:01):
though the base substance is thesame, the way that the society,

(30:44):
I suppose, implements um uh thesort of crime and punishment
aspects, I suppose that's whatsets the hierarchy, right?
And that's how it filters downto lowly people like myself.

SPEAKER_02 (30:55):
Do you think that like it, you know, often we
associate as well like crimewith things like
methamphetamines, right?
Meth and and those are thethings that make people really
paranoid or start hallucinatingand delusions, therefore, that
result in things like uhhomicide and and all of that.
Uh is it is is can cocaine alsobe a drug that can cause

(31:18):
something like this orhomelessness?
Do you find people that Arehomeless that also could be on
other drugs other than the onesthat we hear about?

SPEAKER_00 (31:27):
Through a homelessness filter, I would
suspect.
I don't know, I don't knowexactly, but usually in my
experience, I found it's polysubstance misuse.
And again, because you sit solow in terms of income
generation, it's pretty much youget what you can get.
And yeah, I suppose there's likea little bit of a sort of class
divide when it comes to cocaineuse as well.

(31:51):
That you need, I suppose, inthis country, maybe you need
like 40 UK pounds or 50 UKpounds to get that, which is
going to be a very differentthing to maybe a homeless person
who can get, I don't know, 10 UKpounds for a couple of rocks,
right?
There's a there's a realdistinct sort of class barrier
and obstacle um within that aswell.
But at a fundamental level, theharm being done on the

(32:14):
individual is exactly the same.
And and I think that when youunderstand that, um, I think
that it sort of helps you resetyour your boundaries a little
bit and look at drug usagethrough a different filter.

SPEAKER_02 (32:28):
At what point for you did heroin go from being
something that you kind of hadcontrol over?
I know you talked about thedenial, but you were still
working on and you were stillfunctioning on that.
And at what point did that sortof turn for you?

SPEAKER_00 (32:41):
I think that um when I lost I suppose the ability to
motivate myself to go out andhustle for it and go out and
pick up these little jobs and goout and pretend I was social.
I started to isolate myself moreand more.
Um, and any drug that you do, ifyou're sitting by yourself and
doing it, that would be one bitof advice I would say.

(33:04):
If you're sitting by yourselfand you know, hoovering lines or
drinking bottles of wine or whatwhatever it is is your thing,
that's probably the reflectionpoint where you need to have a
serious conversation withyourself.
And I've seen that, yeah, intherapy and in rehabilitation,
I've seen that really starkly asI started to self-isolate when I

(33:24):
when I lost the ability to evenlike pick up the guitar and
express myself.
The only way that I couldexpress myself is when I was
using that substance, that'swhen the wheel started to fall
off.
And I would say maybe got awindow three years to start off
with four years max where I wasfunctional and inverted commas.

(33:45):
The next five years waswrestling with that lack of
meaning anymore to get up in themorning and then using as many
ways just to sustain myaddiction, and then um to sort
of portion it up the last threeyears is when things went um
code red, if you will.

SPEAKER_02 (34:04):
Walk me through some specific instances or moments
that you can remember thatreally stand out to you during
this period.

SPEAKER_00 (34:11):
Um, yeah, I moved in with um a policeman's daughter,
and I was like, I was using, andthen I've used um Diasa Parma
Valium on top, and I nearlyaccidentally OD'd.
So that was like pivotal momentone.
And she panicked and managed tolike get me on my side and
revive me.

(34:32):
And yeah, my when I look back onit, like I was so in denial, I
was just like laughed offalmost, so put a kind of comedy
slant about certain fact I justnearly died in the bed next to
her, and yeah, that was onemoment.
Second one was being run over bythe police, which I wasn't
really conscious of, to behonest.

(34:53):
I won't go into it for obviousreasons, but yeah, I got run
over by the police and didn'treally figure out the the
consequences to that till like acouple of years later, till I
was sitting at a doctor.
Doctor was trying to give mepsychotic medication, and I was
refusing.
I'm like, I may be X, Y, and Z,but I'm definitely not psychotic

(35:13):
because I've had quite a goodreading education through this
process as well.
And he actually read out to methat I had been ran over by the
police, even though I can'treally remember much of what
happened because I was so high.
So there was like another pivotpoint, and I suppose the last
one and the most difficult onewas um me and my kid's mother,

(35:33):
our relationship dissolved, andum and not having access to my
kids for a period of time.
That was like the first timewhere to be really honest, I
didn't want to live anymore, andI've never been to that point,
and I have like this acutememory of being like a tube
station, train was comingtowards me, and I was a
consideration and thinking, youknow what, that's easier that

(35:56):
journey, just to jump in frontof that.
Um and yeah, I suppose that thatwas the pivot point where I was
like shit, like we're here.
This is the end of this, or it'sthe end of me, and I think that
that was yeah, that was the lastone, maybe about 2015.

SPEAKER_02 (36:13):
2015, so that means you'd been you'd been using
heroin and these other drugs forhow long?

SPEAKER_00 (36:21):
In total, about probably about 20 years, but in
terms of problematic drug usage,I would say yeah, a good 17
years.
So that was like party drugsplus heroin.

SPEAKER_02 (36:34):
You know, a lot of people who take heroin, like
they're they they realize thattheir dosage needs to increase
every time because they realizethat it's just not having that
same effect, that feeling oflike euphoria.

SPEAKER_00 (36:45):
Was that true for you?
No, it's it's sort of yeah, it'sit's just enough to not withdraw
by the end.
So I wasn't getting like a highoffer or a buzz by the end.
It keep just keeps withdrawalsaway.
That was it.
And then what I was doing, I wasusing my access to the welfare
and state medication, really, isthe top-up to that.

(37:07):
So whether that be kind ofsleeping tablets or baits or
benzodiazepines, I was using allthe functionality which people
like myself at that time, that'swhat you do, right?
That's your survival mechanism.
If you've not got the money foryour chosen drug, let me find as
many avenues to get something,just to get some peace of mind,
some sleep, some solace.

(37:28):
And that's what became at theend.

SPEAKER_02 (37:31):
So you weren't even looking for that high anymore.
At some point, it just kind ofstopped becoming about feeling
that feeling.

SPEAKER_00 (37:37):
It was just Yeah, and in rehab, I I kind of
reflected on that.
So that's why I cut up that sortof that journey with that
substance into parts whereyou've got that sort of first
window where you're functionalinverted, then there's a denial,
then there's a middle bit wherereally you're not getting as
high, and you're thinking, whyis this not working for me

(37:57):
anymore?
And then there's that last bitwhere it's like, oh, this just
doesn't work for me anymore.
Like, what does?
And because I knew that I was atthe the top of the food chain in
terms of uh substances, I waslike, okay, my mental health's
gone left here.
That was like a realrealization.
And I suppose being yeah,suppose if you think of the

(38:20):
environment now with toxic drugsupply and the opioid or opioid
crisis and nitosines, I don'tknow if I would have made it if
that was going to be availablefor me at that time because my
only way to go would be up thathierarchy or up that food chain
even further.

SPEAKER_02 (38:35):
What about in terms of like your mom's role and your
grandparents' role throughoutthis entire time that you were
on these things?

SPEAKER_00 (38:42):
Well, my grandmother and grandfather they checked out
um in 2003, unfortunately.
So as much as that was sad andmy heart was broken, I'm kind of
glad in a way that they nevergot to see like the you know the
back end of that process,really, because um, yeah, there
would have been a lot of shameand guilt around that.

(39:03):
And what's interesting, like mymum tried really hard to save me
as well, because she managed toget away from that person who I
mentioned at the start of thisstory as well.
And she was living in London andshe tried to pull as many levers
to to save, if you will.
But I suppose the lessons thatlike we both learned during that

(39:24):
journey is like that was mychoice, that was kind of where I
was, that was my journey, andbecause our relationship had
been so fractious, and because Iwas still angry in a way, like I
just didn't want her to save me,it needed to be on my on my own
merits.
So yeah, but in fairness to her,she tried super hard.

SPEAKER_02 (39:44):
What what what do you think about when you I mean
it sounds like you have abeautiful relationship with your
mum today, but is there any partof you that harbors any
resentment towards your mum forthat difficult childhood and
that difficult upbringing thatcould have led you here?
Or do you feel like you've kindof let that go completely?

SPEAKER_00 (40:05):
It's interesting because in therapy a lot of the
time the the goal is to give youthe tools to reach a point of
acceptance, you know, if youreally have the fortitude or the
smarts, is forgiveness.
That's like the the final bit.
And I think that I fluctuate inthat forgiveness piece.
And even though I'm I'm a lotolder now and a lot wiser and a

(40:27):
lot more secure in myself,there's still moments where you
know you reflect back, or as Isaid to you earlier on that kind
of dream moment, and you think,Really?
Was that was that what Ideserved?
Sometimes that's the cards thatyou're dealt, right?
It's like when you go to thecard table, the dealer hands you
out a hand, right?
And you've got to try and makethe best with the hand that
you're dealt.

(40:48):
And in a lot of the ways, that'sthe way that where my acceptance
has come from is understandingthat through my mum's eyes.
Must have been difficult for herbeing 19 and having a child and
you know, putting her own lifein hold, and all the things that
she would experience before Iwas like older.
So, yeah, I accept whathappened, but that that

(41:09):
forgiveness piece is still awork in progress, I would say.

SPEAKER_02 (41:13):
So, you know, you mentioned that you're sort of
like a breaking point for youwhen you realize that your your
relationship with your partnerat the time was coming to an
end, and you know, you're thatwas gonna, you know, get in the
way of your relationship withyour kid, and you realized it
was one or the other.
It was either I I just go todayor I turn my life around.

(41:34):
Is that kind of around the timewhen you checked into
rehabilitation?

SPEAKER_00 (41:38):
Yeah, I was really lucky.
Uh in the UK, like you go to uha center that prescribes you a
kind of hold-in medication foryour withdrawals called
methadone.
And um there was um a key workerthere.
Uh she'd been listening to myexcuse my um my harshness, she'd
been listening to my bullshitfor a long time.
Fiction fueled manipulation justto get what I needed, tell her

(42:00):
what she wanted to hear, andbounce out the door again.
At one point, um she turnedaround and says to me, like,
you're gonna end up in prisonfor a long time or you're gonna
end up dead.
And that came roughly at thesame time of that moment when I
seen the train and I knew mymental health wasn't right, and
I was ready to make a consciousdecision not to be here anymore.

(42:22):
There was like a coalescencethere between them two moments.
And when she said that, she waslike, Look, I've got this um
this programme, I think you'd bea great fit for it.
After a couple of weeks ofcontinuing to resist a little
bit, I agreed to go to that, andyeah, it was it was 12 weeks.
Uh yeah, some of the mostdifficult reflections, it was 12

(42:42):
weeks of mental pain, it waswithdrawals were acute, there
was no sleeping, but somewhereinside of me, and with that
backing and that support fromher, turned up every day, and I
worked, I worked through griefmodules, loss modules, I worked
through kind of drama triangleuh modules, a cycle of change,

(43:04):
all this kind of cognitivebehavioral stuff was like
blasted in my head.
And then at the back end ofthat, there was like um there
was Reiki, it was guidedmeditation, so they kind of
blasted your head through thatfull of knowledge and theory to
help you understand where youwere, and at the back end of
that, they would sort of caressyou um via mindfulness
techniques.

(43:24):
There was 17 of us that startedthere, um, and yeah, by the end,
I think there was a couple of usthat made it through the um the
very fiery wall um towards theend.
But then I suppose the mentalhealth battle started because
okay, you've taken away thesubstances, but at the end of
the day, I was homeless, didn'thave a penny, and then the

(43:48):
biggest one was I was kind oflooking in the mirror, thinking,
like, who who are you?
Like, what is this that I see infront of me?
What is this person that I seethat inhabits this skin puppet?
Jesus Christ, you've got somelines.
Where did these come from?
Because that 17 years ends upbecoming like blur, it becomes
like a whirlwind, right?

(44:09):
And and that's where I supposethe second battle in terms of
mental health started.

SPEAKER_02 (44:15):
I do want to go back a little bit though, just to
talk about that rehabilitationthat you were talking about, the
12-week program.
This was not in patience, so youwere going home and coming back
every day.

SPEAKER_03 (44:25):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (44:26):
So that really requires a lot of a lot of
willpower.
You have to have you have toreally be in a certain place.
You you mentioned that you werein a holding, which was sort of
like helping you to to deal withthe withdrawals and stuff, but
that holding was for how longwas it?

SPEAKER_00 (44:42):
Um, yeah, I'd say about three weeks of consistent
agony, non-sleep, or like anhour here or an hour there, and
then the sort of emotional wavesand tides and reconnection with
your senses that comes withthat.
Yeah, that that first threeweeks was a nightmare.
And in the kind ofrehabilitation groups, it was
just about me churning out allthat negative self-talk and

(45:07):
things that uh were sort ofdelusions of grandeur, things
that were fabrications that I'vemaybe made up to justify a
really negative behavior orsomething that I'd done that I
was really ashamed of.
So yeah, that first three weeksof the rehab process was it was
pretty grim, man.
I was I was ruined, I was allover the place.

(45:30):
And I can only laugh about itnow because I'm thinking it
through a dark humor filter, butyeah, yeah, I was I was ruined.
I was at really at the at thebottom of the pile, sort of
mentally, physically, andemotionally.

SPEAKER_02 (45:42):
When you when you kind of like look at it though,
like in terms of the the grandscheme of things, it's like
three weeks compared to 17years.
It almost sounds like heck, Icould have done that, I could
have done that on my own.
But the the the amount of powerthat these drugs take over you
that it becomes so hard to shakeoff that that even three weeks

(46:03):
comes and goes so fast and soeasily, but it can be so
momentous, so life-changing in asense, just as long as you're
given the right kind of care andsupport that you need in that
time.

SPEAKER_00 (46:13):
Yeah, and I I was so lucky that I was matched up with
peer support worker.
I'll give you one example.
I had this kind of thing, thistick, if you will.
So I got to the end of the threeweeks and I was starting to sort
of level out a little bit.
But I had this thing that I'd bein the sort of therapy circle
group first thing in themorning, and I couldn't sit with

(46:34):
my back to the door.
Like, literally couldn't do it.
I'd sit with my back to thedoor, I'd get like frightful,
fearful, and I'd have to likeswitch around my group.
And this clinical psychologistwas like, um, he must have seen
this, and he took me asideafter, and he's like, What do
you think that is?
And I was like, I literallydon't want to have my back to
the door.
And he was like, Well, it's athreat response, and he gave me

(46:57):
the you know, he gave me theparticulars, the academics,
yeah.
And then it got to like, I thinkI was like maybe like halfway
through, it's maybe week six,and he said to me, Liam, come
with me.
And so I was like, All right,you know, so he took me to the
nearest uh tube station, andyeah, now I know more about it.
What he was doing, it wasexposure therapy.

(47:19):
And so a tube station is reallybusy, right?
It's just people, people,people.
And this guy, like in the middleof the tube station, so you've
got these commuters, you know,like briefcases and stuff just
bumping past people, you know,old ladies being disregarded
because you've got like a busytrain.
This guy just stood with hishands spread out, like in a
messiac pose, and just startedto do like heavy breathing.

(47:39):
And I'm standing there thinking,mate, you're a NHS clinical
psychologist, and you'restanding here in the middle of a
tube station just breathing.
But what he was trying to showme is that you know, my identity
and my value and my worth meansthat I can center myself
regardless of what the situationis, and there'll be no judgment.

(48:00):
People will just carry on withtheir business.
There might be one who sticksher nose up or whatever, or you
might get a remark, but he wasshowing me there that you know
it is possible to center myselfand ground myself regardless of
what the situation is, and itshowed me I was like, showed me
real power with something soabstract, you know.
And at first I was like, whatthe hell?

(48:22):
But yeah, it's that kind ofexposure therapy thing, you
know.
Like if you're if you're scaredto fly in, for example, what you
would do is you give somebodythe stats beside flying, you
maybe take them to the side ofan airport to show planes
landing, and eventually youbuild them up to like actually
going on the plane.
Yeah, he would show me how to,you know, integrate and not
freak out when I was sat in acircle with my back to a door.

SPEAKER_02 (48:44):
That's really cool.
I love that.
And I love how earlier as wellyou talked about how on the one
part of this 12-week program,they were teaching you about the
terminologies that are necessaryto know about CBT.
Like just learn the academicside of it, and in the evenings
they were teaching you mindful.
It was kind of like this littlecombination of both, where you
can take in the theories, ifthat's the way that you learn

(49:06):
best or you absorb best, you cantake in the mindfulness
practices, the meditation, theReiki.
So, my question to you is whatresonated with you best in that
time?

SPEAKER_00 (49:15):
Yeah, that I think for me, well, I ended up sort of
studying fast forward afterrehab, and when I started to get
myself back on my feet again, Istarted uh studying kind of
Freudian psychodynamiccounseling.
And this points me back, sorryto shift left a little bit, but
this points me back to that keyworker who'd been listening to
my BS for a long time, right?

(49:37):
But she drew enough from the BSto think to herself, what type
of rehabilitation does this guyneed?
So she knew that I was acreative because I probably told
her about guitar and songwritingin London and playing gigs and
playing, you know, in Americaand all that.
She probably heard that from meat some point.
She probably knew that I wasquite fluid when it came to

(49:58):
writing.
She probably knew that I wasquite quick when it came to
learning and stuff.
So even though there was never areference to that, when it came
to that window opportunity, sheknew exactly what to throw at me
in terms of academic smarts.
And I think the I think for meas a creative as well, that that
mindfulness piece, like I can gowrong with that.

(50:20):
I can disappear completely.
Especially within the context ofkind of Reiki and yoga and
stuff, which I still use andstill keep me centered and
moving forward in the right way,even like today, it's something
that's kind of endured.

SPEAKER_02 (50:33):
That's amazing.
That's so cool.
I'm I'm also just beginning mysort of like mindfulness
journey.
So it's just really fascinatingto sort of hear that like just
just like you said, centeringyourself.
Like I've started to sort ofreally focus in and like listen
to my breathing, even in themost crowded of spaces, and like
really feel that kind of thatbreath that's coming in and feel

(50:53):
it in my nostrils and feel it inmy in my chest and my belly.
And so all of those things arejust so so important in that
kind of process of likerealizing and being one with
yourself, because we often,especially in this kind of day
and age, we we we lose thatsense of like our heart is still
beating, regardless of what'shappening around us.

(51:13):
Like these are innate responsesor innate ways of being for
survival that we don't evenquite think about.
And so, you know, having thesekind of mindfulness practices, I
can imagine just being sohealing on its on its own.
But yes, it doesn't come withoutthe the kind of understanding of
of grief and kind of connectingthat with your own story or or

(51:35):
like connecting these theorieswith your own story.
And so, can you tell me a littlebit about you know this phase
two?
You step out, and now it's timefor you to do your own mental
health healing where you have toreally unravel your story.

SPEAKER_00 (51:49):
Yeah, what I first tried to do, so set the scene a
little bit.
I was living at in what you'dcall a supported housing unit,
or what others would call ahostel.
So it was like loads of singlemen, ex-offenders in that
environment in a really run-downpart of London.
So next door to me was an armedrobber, and then downstairs was
a sex offender, and then myself.

(52:10):
So yeah, it was it was it was astellar cast, let me say that.
The first thing I had to figureout fundamentally was how to
keep not them per se, but theworld at bay and learn to sit by
myself.
That was number one.
But again, I was fresh out ofrehab, so I had a lot of coping
mechanisms that were almostprogrammed into me that I

(52:32):
followed ritually, superdisciplined around that.
At the time, I only had um£38 aweek, so I literally had no
money at all to do anythingother than to eat pretty
meagerly.
So really it was um it wasalmost it was almost
sacrificial, it was almost in ina certain sense like back to

(52:53):
basics, back to nothing, andthat understanding who I was and
started to think, okay, what canI do to pass six hours?
I'm just gonna write.
I don't care where it takes me,I'm just gonna keep writing and
writing and writing.
I suppose nowadays you wouldcall it journaling to a sense,
so that was important to me.
Then it was to reconnect with ummusic and my musical instrument

(53:17):
as well, because I can disappearand I can waste a couple of
hours for that.
And then for me, it was like,okay, where do I channel all
this energy?
Because I had a load of energythat was obviously built up.
So I was thinking about, youknow, getting a concessionary
pass for the gym, get myselfmoving, you know, actually look
at all, I suppose, as many, asmany practices that I could

(53:39):
commit to that doesn't cost muchmoney.
And I was in that in that sortof hostel space for maybe about
maybe about 12 weeks, and at theend of that 12 weeks, I managed
to get myself a job.
Um I started to work insecondary psychiatric care up in
northwest London, and my firstrole was being like a night

(53:59):
support worker.
And I suppose that was the startof finding meaning again and a
reason to get up in the morning.
So there was finding creativity,there was the journaling bit and
trying to sort of meld a storythere.
Um, and then it was to get outof the environment full of kind
of expenders and get out of thatenvironment, get a job, and

(54:20):
yeah, continue that journeyforward.
And that's how it panned out.

SPEAKER_02 (54:23):
That's really like that.
I just find that so likeamazing.
How sort of writing kind of wasone of those things that came
came quite natural, like you'refinding your creativity in this
kind of dark place that you werein, and that sort of being your
your beam of light.
And through all of this, howmuch of your past was being
unraveled to you?

SPEAKER_00 (54:42):
It's really interesting.
I think that the the therehabilitation space, it gives
you the platform to exercisedemons and dig out skeletons in
your cupboard and put them rightin the middle of the floor, and
amongst other people who areexercising their demons and
putting their skeletons in themiddle of the circle as well.

(55:02):
So I'm not saying that Iresolved everything during that
period, but I suppose the bigbits and what we talked about
earlier, that acceptance.
Okay, I accept what I've beenthrough.
You've got two choices now.
You can go back to that way oflife and the substance use, but
you know how that's going to panout because you've been there
already, or you can walk throughthis other door and run towards

(55:26):
the unknown.
And I think how I tackle thingsnow, if I just get nervous, I
just run towards it.
Just hopefully, what's theworst?
What's the worst that couldhappen?
And you know, there's there'snever been kind of diminishing
returns on that.
It doesn't mean I get everythingright all the time, but you
know, I'll take the Pepsichallenge that I'll get six
things out of ten right, and I'mquite happy with that sort of

(55:48):
with with them odds.

SPEAKER_02 (55:49):
Would you say that sort of rehabilitation system
that is there kind of in the UKis a successful, like effective
one for most people?
Can you speak?

SPEAKER_00 (55:58):
I don't know if you can speak on behalf of like most
people, but the the thing is, isI think the rehabilitation space
can be really effective forindividuals.
But what I see is the issue, andand this is the same with like
the prison system as well.
You can be in prison and you canget your stuff together, you can
reconnect with your face, youcan do work programs, you can

(56:21):
get yourself qualified.
But what happens when you comeout of that structure?
And in the UK, you see,especially in London, there's a
lack of affordable housing,there's a lack of mental health
provision.
I don't think the rehabilitationspace that um I was able to get
into, I don't know if that'savailable to you know everybody
who walks down the street.
I think there's guardrails inplace for that, and you've got

(56:43):
to have done X and Y and Zbefore they're even applicable
for that.
And I was so lucky that this wasan NHS provision, so I got that
for free, right?
Like I'm a big believer in kindof gratitude and the gratitude
practice.
Like, how lucky was I that me inthe Western world I could really
mess up and I can make someterrible choices and hurt people

(57:04):
that I loved and stole frompeople that I loved and lied to
people and you know done someexcuse my French really shitty
things, but still I had um asafety net where the NHS would
gave me that space torehabilitate myself.
And then this might be unpopularopinion, but I'm gonna say it is

(57:24):
that then it comes down to youas an individual, right?
No matter what you've beenthrough, at some point you've
got to face yourself in themirror and go, what do you want
to do?
Where do you want to go?
And I was lucky that some of thesteps that I made afterwards
that were rooted inself-discipline and acceptance
and being therapeuticallyinformed and then studying all

(57:47):
led itself to a point now whereI'm not perfect by any strength,
I'm not actualized throughAbraham Maslow filter, but I'm
definitely much better placed tomake better decisions.

SPEAKER_02 (57:58):
I guess this kind of leads me to that sort of point,
just to reiterate that questionthat I said earlier is is
because you know, a lot ofpeople that maybe inability to
overcome huge addictions or hugetraumas is due to like that lack
of willpower, maybe because ofthat lack of education.
And so why I wanted to reiteratethat question is that you know
you mentioned that thisrehabilitation was was really

(58:21):
heavy in that academic side ofit and teaching you so that you
can be aware, so you can be abit more self-aware because
self-awareness is linked to thatsort of educating yourself,
which is linked to that initialeventual healing.
But I hear you also mentionedyou said, you know, I'm I'm very
lucky.
I genuinely wonder, is it is itis there some innate genetic

(58:43):
willpower, or is it really anenvironmental thing, like an
education, for example?

SPEAKER_00 (58:48):
Yeah, I don't want to park the bust and be a sort
of and sit on the fence aroundthat, but it it's just really
specific to the individual, whattype of individual you are.
For example, there was people inin the group that I was in
rehabilitation with, I had somereally smart people, I had like
a detective in there, forexample, you know, but that was

(59:09):
one of the people that didn'tmake it on the other side, and
you think, well, you know,somebody from the civil service
who was super educated was inthe upper echelons, but then
again, you don't know whattrauma they've been through.
And like my point I made earlieras well, like how that trauma is
manifested and how you'vereacted to it, and how much is

(59:29):
coloured in, and how much is youknow, how much is fantasy, and
it's just so, so it's so case bycase would be the best way I
could describe it.
I do think I I go back to thatperson who I had support in me
and who was listening to me formonths and months, and I've said
this on my podcast before, isthat like she said to me the

(59:50):
formula for trust is consistencyplus time equals trust.
I was like, you know what,you've you're you're not far off
there because she was consistentenough to keep on turning up,
even though I was just tellingher what she wanted to hear.
She put the time in, so she knewwhat buttons to press when it
came to that window where it'slike, you know, you're gonna end

(01:00:12):
up in prison for a long time,you're gonna end up dead.
And that's like a reallyspecific skill set, and and
somebody with experience in thatfield over, you know, numbers
and numbers of years.
She was able to pull it on mewhen the time is right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:27):
Love that.
And one of the big things that Iwant to take away from this kind
of what you said is as well islike going back to the
consistency in that time is foryou, it really required someone
of a strong presence to haveenough belief in you to give you
that time and to give you thatspace and to be consistently
there, to have you have yourback and to be in your corner,

(01:00:49):
to kind of make you stop andthink for a second, you know,
that also being your kids orbeing the people that you love
and care.
They gave you a little bit ofthat meaning and that little bit
of purpose for you to kind of belike, okay, enough is enough.
Like I've got to turn thataround.
And I think that's somethingthat I kind of just really want
to highlight here for anyonethat you know is related to a
mother of, a sister of, a friendof, a co-worker of someone who

(01:01:12):
is, you know, really at theirwits and their wits' end, or you
know, is is a drug user from youknow, years of trauma is Not to
give up, because I think, youknow, your impact and your your
words to them can be so powerfuland you just never know what you
might say when that's gonna bethe the words that is gonna turn
it around for that person.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:33):
Yeah, that's that's a that's a good summary point.
And yeah, that formula is reallyimportant.
That when she said that it sortof blew over my head a little
bit, you know, like a large bowand 757 jumbo jet.
But actually, upon reflection,I've kind of used that in a
really unconscious way movingforward in relationships in my

(01:01:53):
life, is that that then becomesa benchmark and a boundary for
you to apply in terms of yourown uh friendships and and
relationships moving forward.
So super valuable.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:05):
Leon, final plugins.
Tell us a little bit about thework that you're doing now on
your podcast.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:10):
So yeah, um, our podcast, first of all, is too
light, too dark.
So it's got like a real kind ofunion influence, a lot of I
suppose, influence in terms ofshadow work.
So the very things that that arethe worst of the human trait,
jealousy, rage, anger,frustration, resentment, you
know, go through that litany umand negativity.

(01:02:31):
Actually, they make us whole ashuman beings as well.
And it's like a real mission atours through the podcast to kind
of integrate that and pull insome compelling discussions and
conversations and guests, um,and understand what their trauma
journey is or their healingjourney is.
Yeah, we're we're on Apple, umfind us easily at Two Light Too
Dark, from Spotify at Two LightToo Dark, and then we've got the

(01:02:54):
handle across, you know, um X,what used to be known as
Twitter, you know, Facebook,TikTok, all of that good stuff.
So um, yeah, it's been reallyinteresting.
And why I've liked reaching outto yourself as well is that I'm
not saying we're identical, butit looks like that our learner
journeys are on similartrajectories, where I feel like

(01:03:17):
that I want to bring smartpeople in the room and figure
out a little bit about myselfand figure out what their
journey and how that applies tous, and kind of beam that across
different areas and differentsectors, and and hopefully
educate and inspire.
So, yeah, that's kind of themission and what we're trying to
do.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:34):
Well, know that you have educated and inspired
today.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:37):
Yeah, thank you so much.
And um, yeah, it's been a realpleasure to speak to you today.
And yeah, I just hope thatsomebody, even one person, could
reach out and understand that ifa layman like me can do it, like
you can definitely do it aswell.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:55):
If you enjoyed the episode and would like to help
support the show, please followand subscribe.
You can rate and review yourfeedback on any of our platforms
listed in the description.
I'd like to recognize our guestswho are vulnerable and open to
share their life experienceswith us.
Thank you for showing us we'rehuman.
Also, a thank you to our teamwho worked so hard behind the

(01:04:15):
scenes to make it happen.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:16):
Stefan Menzel.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:17):
Lucas Pierre.
The show would be nothingwithout you.
I'm Jenica, host and writer ofthe show, and you're listening
to Multispective.

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