I Escaped the FLDS Cult: Ange’s Story

Angie shares her extraordinary journey from being born and raised in a polygamist fundamentalist Latter-day Saints cult to finding freedom and building a new life in the outside world.

• Born in a small FLDS community in Canada with minimal interaction with the outside world
• Pulled out of school at age 16 for cutting her hair, which was against religious rules
• Arranged marriage at 16 to a man she barely knew
• No access to basic education about history, science, or human relationships
• Describes the religious control through fear and shame – "we were God's chosen children"
• One uncle had 26 wives and over 150 biological children
• Left the religion as a teenager, losing all family and community connections
• Reconnected with her husband outside the religion and built a new life together
• Both pursued education – she now has a master's degree in nursing, he's a life flight helicopter pilot
• Focuses on "glimmers" – finding small moments of joy and gratitude as the opposite of triggers
• Breaking generational cycles by creating a safe environment for their children to question and challenge

You can find Angie on Instagram @angemfj and on TikTok @CadesBabe. She also runs a company called Glimmers focused on bringing joy through clothing she designed to spark happiness.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
I feel like I have lived enough lifetimes that I
should be like at least 60 yearsold.
We were God's chosen children.
If we were good enough, we weregoing to be lifted up and the
earth was going to be cleansed,and then we, the chosen people,
would be set back down and beable to repopulate the earth as
God's purest people.
Everybody who's not in thereligion is going to hell.

(00:26):
We didn't have interaction withthe outside world at all
Control in every aspect, likewhat you ate, what you wore,
what you listened to, how youspoke.
One of my uncles had 26 wives,over 150 biological children.
When I left, I was leavingeverybody that I knew and I was
leaving my family and for me.

(00:48):
I've just focused so hard ofjust finding something to be
grateful for.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
Angie, welcome to Multispective.
I'm super thrilled to have youhere on the podcast with us to
share your journey.
Yeah, how are you doing today?

Speaker 1 (01:06):
I'm doing great.
I am super excited to be hereand chat about it, so I'm
grateful you reached out.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
Yeah, you know, your journey kind of begins way, way,
way back.
One of the questions I alwaysask my guests is you know where
does it all begin from?
You Tell us about yourchildhood, and a lot of the
guests that we do have you knowthey've had a fairly smooth-ish
childhood and then somethinghappens later on in their lives.

(01:32):
But the reason why I ask thisis, like you know, your
childhood sets the foundationfor your future.
You know how you were as achild, your upbringing, that's
the thing that's going to setthe foundation, the building
blocks for the decisions youmake in your adult years.
So for you, it'll beinteresting to sort of hear how
your childhood also shaped theway that you see the world today
.
So yeah, angie, why don't youbegin to start from the very,

(01:55):
very beginning?

Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, that might take a whole book to tell you that
story, but I'll summarize thebest I can.
I'm born and raised into apolygamist fundamentalist
Latter-day Saints cult.
I say cult because it was verymuch a high-demand religion.
That, you know, meets everyaspect of cult.
Some people don't like it beingcalled that, but I think it's

(02:18):
okay if I call it that.
Their basis of their foundation, I guess of their religion, is
similar to Mormons andLatter-day Saints.
However, they believe inmultiple wives and they believe
in the women like there's asevere patriarchy.
I compare it to Handmaid's Talejust because I've seen a little

(02:40):
bit of that and it's quitesimilar.
I started watching it.
It was quite triggering so Ididn't finish, but I grasped the
concept of it.
So, born and raised in it andgrew up my whole life with.
That's All I Knew right Didn'thave much interaction with the
outside world.
I was born in a community thatwas very small in canada.

(03:03):
That is where I was born, andthey had a sect of.
The flds was up there.
Their main sect was in coloradocity, arizona, and salt lake
city, utah.
They have had two big set likecommunities is what we call them
, right.
Um, and so I, I guess mychildhood, in my point of view,

(03:23):
was pretty typical for what Imean, it was all I knew, right.
So we did a lot of cooking andgardening and a lot of
self-sustaining things where thecommunity relied a lot on their
own resources.
So we did a lot of canning anda lot of farming.
My dad had a lot of animals wedid.

(03:44):
I did go to private school theyhad a private school there so I
did end up going to ninth grade.
I finished ninth grade, um, attheir private school there in
the community.
And then, um, I did not finish10th grade because I got pulled
out of school because I cut myhair, which was against the

(04:05):
religion.
So you can't cut your hair inthe religion and I did.
And so my family pulled me outof school for that.
And then, yeah, it was shortlyafter that that you know, I was
the rebel and decided to, orthey decided that I was going to
get married.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
So they felt like at that point, in order to keep you
back on track, would be to tokind of pull you in even deeper
into it, get you, get youmarried and get you in, kind of
to keep the family name andimage, is it?

Speaker 1 (04:38):
Yeah, and that was kind of the goal, like when you
were.
What we were taught growing upwas like you want to be able to
be, you know, a wife and that'sjust like the most privileged
thing is to be worthy, I guess,of becoming a wife to you know a
priesthood man and you'realways like taught that you know
polygamy and plural wives wasthe way it was and that was all

(05:01):
you knew, right, we knew manypeople that had many wives and
you just, you know, accepted itand loved it and that was what
you were, it was, it wasfamiliar to you right when you.
When I look at it now with myperspective from the outside
world, I'm like whoa, that's sostrange.
But, growing up in it there wasno.

(05:22):
I had nothing to compare it to,so it was normal.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
Right.
So I just want to go back alittle bit just to talk a little
bit more about what is the FLDS?
For listeners that might notknow about it Probably more
likely to hear about Mormonism.
We're probably more likely tohear about the LDS, but the FLDS
is sort of like a strand fromboth of them.
How does that work?

Speaker 1 (05:44):
Yeah, so Mormonism and LDS are the same in and of
itself.
They call themselves that, butFundamentalist LDS.
So FLDS is what the group thatI was born and raised in was,
and they were a break off of itback in the early 1900s or late
1800s.
Then they broke off because themainstream Mormon church had

(06:11):
decided they weren't going tocontinue with polygamy.
And then the FLDS broke off andsaid no, we're still going to
continue with polygamy, webelieve it's the right way and
that's what we're going to do.
So that was their maindifferences is that the FLDS
still believes in polygamy andthe Mormonism went a different
direction and LDS is like no, wedon't believe in polygamy and

(06:33):
we're not going to practice thatanymore.
So they kind of phased it out.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
Right.
But predominantly the way thesekind of changes happen is when
there is a leadership changeright.
Usually that's when thingsstart to kind of maneuver.

Speaker 1 (06:46):
Yep, and that's exactly what it was is there was
a profit change in the LDS andthey didn't really agree with
the.
The FLDS leaders didn't reallyagree with that, and so they
kind of split off and startedtheir own little sect and it
spread, which is kind of weird.
I don't really understand fullyhow it got from Utah to Canada

(07:08):
and you know, especially backwhen there was no internet or no
phones and those kind of thingsLike how did you guys like get
in the covered wagon and truckto Canada and find some people
Like I'm not 100% sure how theyall kind of got connected?
That would take a little bitmore diving into my history that
I don't really know.
So but yeah, that's their main.

Speaker 2 (07:29):
Their main differences is that Right, yeah,
the fact that it did kind ofspread, like you know, pretty
far out means that there wasobviously some kind of influence
, or, you know, maybe you know Iguess it's Jeff Warren that
kind of initially started thefundamentalist and who probably
had his you know people to kindof help spread it as far as

(07:50):
possible.
You know, and I guess this isgenerally one of those you know,
core foundations of a lot ofcults is like try to spread the
word, spread the gospel, spreadthe idea, spread the prophecy as
far as you can to anyone thatwill kind of believe in it,
because this is how they makemore money, this is how they
grow the group and whatever, notso yeah, and Warren Jeff's

(08:11):
father was the leader before himand he kind of Warren kind of
groomed himself into becomingthe leader and like groomed, I
guess, the whole audience andthe whole following into that.

Speaker 1 (08:23):
And when his father passed away he kind of just like
took over and after when warrentook over, there was some
pretty severe changes and that'saround the timeline, um is when
I around that, when I left,when those severe changes were
happening and okay, um, and yeah, it was just, it was wild

(08:45):
because warren jeff's is insane.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
So yeah, yeah, um, before we do get into that,
though, I do want to know alittle bit more about your like
early years.
Um, you mentioned that you werepretty much born into it.
Do you know about your parents?
Were your parents also kind ofin it from really early days, or
was it something that they madethat initial choice to do?

Speaker 1 (09:06):
No, most every like as far back as generations as I
know, were part of it, and so myparents were, my grandparents
were, their parents were, and soI think it was at that point
like my great grandparents thatwere part of settling in Salt
Lake and like that kind of stuff.

(09:27):
But I don't know all thespecifics completely, but they
were definitely born and raisedin it.
It's all they ever knew.
My parents got married when mymom was 16 as well, so it was
just like you know, that's whatwas expected and yeah, so it was
everything I grew up learning.
I didn't know like we would gooutside the community for like

(09:51):
doctor appointments or dentistappointments or things like that
, but we didn't have interactionwith the outside world at all.
Like we didn't have TV, wedidn't have like anything like
that where we weren't allowed towatch movies.
We just, I mean, we were boreda lot of the time.
So we did a lot of crafts and alot of, like you know, playing
outside in the forest and thingslike that.

(10:12):
But overall it was a goodchildhood.
It was just very different thanyour typical one.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
Yeah, I can imagine and when, and I guess you know
you mentioned that you did go toschooling, but I'm guessing
that was also a FLDS schoolwhere you were taught the
practices of the FLDS.
So you didn't have, I don'tknow, classes on history and
geography as much as Nope.
Can you talk to me a little bitmore about what you've been
taught?

Speaker 1 (10:39):
Yeah, that has been a big part for me and a big aha
for me.
That has been a big part for meand a big aha for me is I.
So jumping ahead just a littlebit, but I did not have a formal
like to graduate, like I didn'tgraduate in anything.
So when I had left, a couple ofyears after I left, and I
wanted to go to college, Ifigured out how to go to college

(11:00):
and like, asked them how to doit and took my placement tests
and all those things.
And like, asked them how to doit and took my placement test
and all those things.
And then I was sitting in myfirst English class and they
were like, okay, english 101,you know, you're going to, we're
going to write an essay on theHolocaust.
And I was like, well, what'sthe Holocaust, you know?
And I just asked that, like inthe class and everybody laughed

(11:21):
at me and I was like, um, so I'msupposed to know what the
Holocaust was like, you know?
And it was just like, oh mygosh, like I actually don't know
what the Holocaust is, you know.
And so, and it was, you know,before the internet had really
taken off, it was like 2004,2005, where it was like starting
to, just you know.

Speaker 2 (11:40):
Right.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
And so on my way home from school that day, I stopped
at the library and, like waslooking at books about what the
Holocaust was, because I didn'tknow.
And I was like you know, just Iwas blown away Because I'd never
heard anything about it, I'dnever like read anything in the
history books, I'd never beenexposed to any of it.
And then here I am sitting in alibrary on the floor reading

(12:03):
these books of all thesehorrific things that had
happened, and I'm just like Iwas not prepared for that, you
know.
And so there was so muchhistory, and even today I still
like it's easier for me to agreeand just like nod most of the
time, like yeah, I know whatyou're talking about, and then
go book it up later because butthere's a lot of stuff I don't

(12:25):
know and that I haven't beenexposed to.
And I haven't.
I mean, I try to listen to alot of history books and I try
to like catch up, but there areso many things that I'm like
it's impossible to base afoundation.
Right, you don't have thatbasic, but yeah, I guess.

Speaker 2 (12:41):
I guess the same thing would apply to like
anything like I don't know.
Someone makes a littlereference about Friends, that TV
show you know and everyone'slaughing about.
You know this moment in that inthat show and you're like
what's that?
Like what is Friends?

Speaker 1 (13:05):
I left and it's that same thing like everybody.
Yeah, we'll make thosereferences, but there's so many
movies that I've never seen andright, and it's hard for me to
sit and watch tv just because itwas never a part of my life and
so it still isn't really a partof my life.
I'll watch it here and thereand I'll watch movies here and
there, but I don't ever sit downand just like it's not my
choice of thing to do you know,know, so it's.

(13:26):
It is definitely different whenpeople will say remember when
and you're like, no, I don't.

Speaker 2 (13:35):
So what?
What did your education, likeyou know, in your younger years,
consist of?
What were you mainly beingtaught?

Speaker 1 (13:41):
We did, like basic.
We did math, of course, andthen English, as far as, like
you know, literature andlanguage arts.
We did some social studieswhere we did do some of the
basic history.
Obviously, I was in Canada, sowe did some of the basic history
of settling Canada.
I did learn some French cannotspeak it today, but I did learn

(14:01):
some French because I was, youknow, in Canada.
But and then science, you know,we did spelling and a lot of
just your basic knowledge bases,but just they would pick and
choose.
And so we also did a lot ofpriesthood history that was
their own books and their ownteachings and their own classes.

(14:23):
And we did a lot of singing andband.
We did learn some bandinstruments.
Um, yeah, that's pretty much it.
Um, nothing, nothing superspecial and nothing really out
of the ordinary, except for wejust were, it was very selected
and what we were taught right,um, so picked over, if you would

(14:45):
.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
Yeah, yeah um your mom?
Was your mom um the first wifeof your dad, the second wife?
How did that?
How does your family tree work?

Speaker 1 (14:57):
yeah, so my mom my mom is my dad's first wife and
he only ever had one wife.
And yeah, she was his firstwife when she was 16.
I believe he was 18 or 19 whenthey got married.
Maybe he was a little older,maybe he was 20.
I'm not 100% sure, but she wasvery young when they got married

(15:23):
.
Regardless, but yeah, she wasborn and raised in Utah and
brought up to Canada to marryhim in the early 80s, I think.

Speaker 2 (15:33):
And that was usually selected by the prophet as well,
right.

Speaker 1 (15:37):
The marriages were all arranged by the prophet.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
How did they make that decision?
How did they decide to sendyour mom there?

Speaker 1 (15:58):
What was the decision making process, would you know?
I have no idea.
Um, I think there was some someleadership influence like, oh,
I think this person would begood with that person, or you
know um, they did try to keepthe gene pool at a minimum of
mixing right some, some extent,until warren got into power, but

(16:19):
um, before that there was a.
They did try to um, but I don'tknow what the process was as far
as like them deciding, oh,these, it was just like the
prophet will decide, and youshall not question, you know and
that's who you get right.

Speaker 2 (16:37):
I guess a lot of cults do kind of fall on that
predacus of like you do not askquestions, you just, you know,
you just oblige, you know youjust follow the rules of the
prophet and no questions askedand you just have to take it
that that's probably what'sgoing to be best for you.
What were some of the ways thatthey managed to make you guys

(16:59):
not question or ask anyquestions about things?

Speaker 1 (17:02):
Well, they put a lot of fear and shame right, and so
a lot of control is by fear andshame.
And so with them, we weretaught that if we were good
enough, the goal was that wewere all going to be, we were
chosen, we were God's chosenchildren and if we were good
enough, we were going to belifted up and the earth was

(17:23):
going to be cleansed.
And then we, the chosen people,would be set back down and be
able to lifted up and the earthwas going to be cleansed, and
then we, the chosen people,would be set back down and be
able to repopulate the earth asGod's purest people, right.
And so every time there waslike a natural disaster or a
like when the twin towers gotstruck, um, then there was that
was a new, reignited fear of thedestructions are coming and

(17:46):
you're not good enough, andeverybody would get you know
super scared and all go back tobeing like our best selves that
we could be right.
And there was just thatconstant fear of we're never
going to be good enough andwe've got to make sure we're
just doing better.
And they they talk to.
If you have questions, just putthem on a shelf and leave them

(18:08):
there and when you get to heaven, god will answer them, you know
.
And so, just like that's whatyou were taught, like don't ask
questions, you know.
And if you did ask questions,then they would come up with
some, you know, irrationalanswers that were just like you
know, well, that's the way Godplanned it, you know.
And just like doesn't makesense now to me, but, nan, at

(18:31):
the time they were good atcontrolling your feelings, right
?
That's crazy.

Speaker 2 (18:35):
And with the polygamy .
How were they able to encouragepeople to have multiple wives
like um?
What was the thought processbehind that?

Speaker 1 (18:47):
yeah, so they're.
Another.
One of their goals was tomultiply and replenish the earth
, right, with god's chosenpeople, right.
So we're the purest people youknow and we're the only ones
that can have pure people,because everybody who's not in
the religion is going to hell.
Right, they're teaching youthat from the very beginning,

(19:07):
and so they would try to havemultiple wives so they could
have a lot of children.
And these bigger households,you know, needed more wives to
manage them and so like, to helpwith the kids and to help with
everything going on.
So I don't know that there wasreally an encouraging, it just
wasn't.
There wasn't any other options.

(19:27):
Like you, if you were chosen tobe a second wife or a third
wife or a 10th wife or whatever,that was your calling, you know
, and you just that's who yougot.

Speaker 2 (19:36):
So and wasn't it, wasn't it seen as like a
blessing if you, if a man, wereto have multiple wives, every
wife that they were given?
It was like a blessing if you,if a man, were to have multiple
wives.

Speaker 1 (19:48):
every wife that they were given.
It was like a blessing for them, yeah, and it was very
traumatic for my mom because mydad didn't get multiple like a
second wife for a lot likeforever, and so my mom was very
like discouraged anddisappointed, like, oh my gosh,
we're not going to go to thehighest level of heaven like.
This is just awful, you know.
And so, um, they do strive forthat and it is looked at as an

(20:10):
honor, um to to be a second wifeor a third wife, or you know.
And I was like always told,like everyone growing up, I just
want to be the first wife sothat I can, you know, be in
control.
Because that was my myth ofunderstanding is, the first wife
had any control, but not that Ihad any say in it, and when it

(20:31):
came down to it, it wasliterally whatever they decided.

Speaker 2 (20:34):
So Right, and what was it like for your dad, though
not being assigned a second ora third wife, like, how did he
experience that?

Speaker 1 (20:43):
I think it was disheartening to him too,
because he did try, you know,and in when you're in that and
that's your goal, and yetthere's no guidance or feedback
on why, like, I feel like it wasdisheartening to him at times
and whenever they would do awhole bunch of weddings or
anything and other people wouldget you know second or third
wives, then it was likedisappointing to us, like as

(21:05):
kids, because we were like, ohmy gosh, like nope, our dad
didn't get one.
You know, like that was likewhat we were hoping for, even
though I'm like so grateful hedidn't, because there's like not
good stories, so I'm like, oh,I'm so glad he didn't do that,
yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
That's just it's so crazy to hear.
Right, Because, like in theoutside world, like monogamy is
the thing right, Most peoplethey want to be in one marriage
and just committed and loyal tothat and that's sort of like the
norm.
And over here it's likemonogamy is looked down on and
both husband and wife see it thesame way, Children see it the

(21:41):
same way as well, and you'realmost being told that you will
be rewarded with a wife if youdo good.
So naturally you're going tothink if you know you're not
doing enough if you don't have asecond wife, and so, yeah, it's
just that mentality.
So, so interesting, I guess.
I guess it also kind of to anextent makes sense because it
was arranged.
There was no aspect of love inthere at the very beginning, at

(22:05):
least when it first started, andso it's easier to sort of like
accept a second or a third wife,whereas maybe it would be
different if they really didexperience love for their
partners.
I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 (22:16):
I don't know, because I feel like even the best of
the relationships that you, thatI saw and that I witnessed,
there's so much much jealousyand as much as they try to like
mask it and pretend there's not,like I mean you think of it if
I think of it now, and I'm likeboy, if my husband was in the
next room and sex with someother woman, like I would be

(22:38):
pissed, you know there would beno, you know no getting along
there, and but in the religionthey're taught to encourage it
and to honor it and to treasureit, and it's like huh no that's
not me and so I.
It's just wild to look at nowbecause I wouldn't, I would
never, but in it when you're init and that's what you're taught

(23:00):
it's like.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
I guess, yeah, can you.
Can you walk me through somestories that you'd heard or seen
around you friends of yourfamily that were in polygamist
relationships?
What were some of the thingsthat were going on?
What was some common?

Speaker 1 (23:15):
yeah, well, one of the most common ones that I saw
is just the women always tryingto get the man's attention right
.
When you've got multiple wivesand they're waiting on you hand
and foot, they're always justgoing above and beyond, trying
to get, like, the man'sattention and be the good wife,
and so that was mainly what Isaw in a bunch of the families,

(23:36):
or the opposite.
I would see one of the wivescarry the load of the household
and like carry the load of thekids, and then the husband would
have this by far favorite wifewhere he, that favorite wife,
would go with him everywhere andyou know the one other, less
favorite wife would be left athome, um, taking care of the
kids and like doing all thehousehold stuff, so, and that

(23:58):
you couldn't really hide that,even as a child, like I noticed
that in families where I wouldbe like, oh, that this mom sure
is doing a lot more than thatother mom, you know, and so and
they would try to mask it andtry to be like we're just doing
the good Lord's work, you know.
And then and then they just, Imean you could tell it was hard
on them and yeah, just a lot ofvying, fighting for their

(24:23):
attention and trying to bechosen, I guess, to go with them
or do different things withthem.
And you know, because one mancan only go so far between you
know, five or six women orwhatever, you know.
Um, one of my uncles had 26wives, so in his household it
was like you were always seeingwomen just like bustle around

(24:44):
him and like try to take care ofhim and like wait on him, and
it's just, it feels icky nowlooking at it, where I'm like
how could you feel like that wasright, you know?
as a man, like getting all thesewomen to fight for your
attention.
Like it was unfair for all ofthem.

Speaker 2 (25:04):
I thought that the only person that had 26 wives
was the prophet.
I mean not Warren.
Yeah, I think it was even JeffWarren and even his father that
had like 26 wives.
I did not know that that wassomething that even members of
the FLDS would and could have.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah, some of the higher up leaders so my uncle
was a bishop in the church wouldhave multiple, multiple wives.
So most of them had like maybethree, four around that, like
some of them would have up to 10.
But there was a few, like a few, of the elite ones that did

(25:42):
have, you know, the 26 and up,you know so, and how many
children would they have on 26wives?
um, I know that my, my uncle,has over 150 biological children
.
So I know that he has that many, but I don't know all of the

(26:02):
other families that do and howmany they have.
But I think when we calculatedmy husband's out, I think his
dad has 26 children and he hadthree wives.

Speaker 2 (26:13):
So yeah, I think that's how many siblings do you
have?
I?

Speaker 1 (26:19):
have 10.
So my parents have 10.
Wow, so my parents have 10.

Speaker 2 (26:23):
Wow, I'm the second oldest.
I did a lot of diaper changingand babysitting.
So yeah, I would imagine thatthat would be sort of like the
role of the older sibling,especially in a really big one,
but kind of take on a little bitof a motherly role and in a way

(26:44):
for the church it's alsoencouraged because then you're
training how to be a mother toyour own children, so it kind of
just falls naturally yep, itdoes, and I I have like done a
lot of helping my siblings evenbecause a lot of them are out of
the religion now and I'vehelped like help them leave and
help them, you know, getestablished and raised them
essentially.

Speaker 1 (27:01):
and so I took on that motherly role and I had to kind
of separate myself from it whenI became a mother and be like I
have to take care of my ownkids, like I can't be my
sibling's mom and like I need toprioritize my children.
And it took a lot of years forme to set those boundaries and

(27:21):
to figure out how I was going todo that.
Because I did, I feltresponsible for a lot of them
for a lot of years, you know, um, just because I did help raise
them from infants.

Speaker 2 (27:31):
You know that's true.
Um, what would you say is likeone of the like walking through
some of, maybe, stories that arereally significant, moments are
really significant, that reallystood out to you while inside,
inside the the group as far aslike religious ones or like just
like day-to-day stuff.
Maybe you can start with thereligious ones.

(27:54):
You know things that maybe yousaw, experience, or just until
today you still you know, stillremember, or haunted by, in a
sense.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
Well, I think a lot of it still haunts me.
There's still things that I goback and I'm like I still can't
believe that we did that right.
But they do a lot of religiouspractices that many churches do
Like they do church every Sundayand that was just the normal.
They do priesthood meeting,where the men have a separate
meeting.
There's a very big patriarchyof just like the women worship

(28:25):
the men and the men decide allthe things.
And you're taught that frominfancy, like if your dad, if
your father, says yes or no,then he's right and you have to
do what he says right, there'sno questioning.
And so you're taught that toofrom a very young age to not
question a man, not questionwhat they say, just do it right,

(28:46):
which I think is so dangerous.
Right Because there's so muchcontrol that the men had that
was abused.
But typically, you know, I'mjust thinking of when I started
kind of questioning.
Some of it was right.
It was before I got married.
Obviously I cut my hair and Iwas kind of a rebel and that was

(29:08):
kind of the reeling in for mewas that, you know, we got to,
we got to get this girl in, youknow, married so she can get her
life together, you know, andkind of wash our hands of her
and get her going on her path,and I was just thinking, like
there was this pull to me thatthere must be something more
there, there has to be somethingmore to life, and just feeling

(29:31):
like, if this is all there is inlife, I don't, I don't love
this, you know, like there hasto be more to life than this.
There has to be like becausethey teach you to like,
happiness is the object anddesign of our existence, you
know, and that's one of theirsayings that they say all the
time.
And I just kept thinking well,this isn't happiness.
Like, what is this?

(29:51):
You guys are telling us what todo, how to do it.
And so when I was a teenager iswhen I started really
questioning that and rebelling,if you would.
Up until then, I was like theworld's most perfect child, like
I was an angel, never said no,I was just like always doing

(30:14):
what my mom needed.
And it wasn't until I was about13, 14, that I was like hmm, I
don't love this.
So, but they did have justcontrol in every aspect, like
what you ate, what you wore,what you listened to what, how
you spoke, like everything theywould say well, we can't say
those words anymore.
Like we got told we couldn'tcall I'm sure you heard me just

(30:35):
correct myself.
We couldn't call our dad dadanymore.
We had to call him fatherbecause it was more respectful,
and so for a lot of years, likegrowing up, we had to like
relearn how to not call him dad.
We had to only call him father,and so it was really weird for
me as a little girl because Ihad called him daddy and then I

(30:57):
didn't get to call him thatanymore and it was bad if I did,
and so it was like just weirdstuff like that that you're like
.
Why does that even matter?
Yeah it's all like in control,so yeah, that.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
that's the interesting part, right, it's
like you're being taught onething and you're being taught
that this is the way forward toGod, and then they do a complete
flip and suddenly that's notthe way forward.
So I can imagine a lot ofpeople being like, but why?
I mean, that's always been theway forward.
How to kind of accept that isby absolutely crushing any sense
of critical thinking so thatyou just blindly follow,

(31:31):
regardless of what it is.
And in the same way, I wantedto ask as well, like if they, if
they did say I do remember thatthey, they mentioned that the
prophet is going to live forever, and when he eventually did die
, how did that, you know?
How did everyone deal with that?

Speaker 1 (31:50):
Yeah, that was so wild, right.
And so we were taught that likehe was going to be renewed, his
health was going to be renewed.
And here we are watching thisold man have a stroke and you
know, he's still like getting.
We're still being taught he'sstill the mouthpiece of god and
he will be renewed if everyoneis good enough.
And so every time he wouldn'tget better, it was all on the

(32:11):
people.
So everything was alwaysdirected back to the people.
And you're not good enough andyou guys need to be better, and
you know.
So everyone would then justlike ah, you know, we'd all
start fasting and praying andcleaning up all of our lives in
every aspect that we could, youknow.
And it was a part again ofcontrol because it would happen
like no-transcript.

(32:52):
When he died, oh my gosh, wewere all like, now what you know
, like we were taught our wholelives.
It was going to be renewed andhe was going to, you know, walk
out those doors and be a youngman again, and you know.
And so Warren just turned itright back around on the people
and was like he died because youguys weren't good enough, you
know.
And so then everybody's justlike oh my God, we're not good

(33:16):
enough, you know.
And so there was a little bit ofan upheaval where my uncle and
Warren clashed and my uncle waslike this crap, you know, and
kind of split off from Warrenand created his own little sect.
But Warren took control and helike, eventually he just started

(33:38):
marrying his dad's wives andsaying like this is a prophecy,
I'm supposed to marry you, andlike, just you know, but it all
came back to the people notbeing good enough to that's why
Rulon died, and so he put somuch more shame on the people,
which, again, is just control,again, just like you know,

(33:58):
making gaslighting and makingthem feel like you know,
everything you're doing doesn'tmatter.
It's still not good enough.
You're not going to go to heaven, and now our prophet's dead
because of you.

Speaker 2 (34:09):
Right, you know you're not going to go to heaven
, and now our prophet's deadbecause of you, right, and I
guess, yeah, there's no limit tothat.
You can just keep saying that,you can just keep adding more
and more and make a personquestion themselves even more.
And I wanted to ask so.
Like when Jeff came into play,obviously he started off with
his guilt tripping, makingeveryone feel like they were
less than what were some of thechanges that he made?
This is for anyone that may notbe aware of this what was some

(34:31):
of the changes that he made backover there, that kind of you
know that you guys felt inCanada as well?

Speaker 1 (34:53):
If you didn't, you know, stand up and attest that
he was the prophet, then hewould, you know, do awful things
like take your family away andmarry him to somebody else and,
you know, say that you no longerhold the priesthood and you
haven't.
You know you're not going tohave a salvation anymore.
And so that was just the startof his main control is just if
you guys don't believe that I'mthe prophet, then you need to
leave, you know.
And so there was a lot offamilies just torn apart because

(35:15):
they had basic questions aboutit, and he would be just like no
questions, you're no longerworthy.
And it just spiraled from there.
He has come up and still inprison today, is having
revelations about things for thepeople to do, and I think
that's the shitty part is it'sstill happening today, but he's

(35:39):
still controlling it from prisonand he's still saying all these
things.
But he's so irrational.
He'd be like you can't eat cornanymore, you can't eat any
products that have corn in themanymore.
Just like.
Like that doesn't even makesense.
Like why would you say what?
Like why can't eat corn anymore, you can't eat any products
that have corn in them anymore,just like.
That doesn't even make sense.
Like, why would you say what?
Like, why is that?
But this is just a test of thepeople.
You know you need to not dothis and it would just be like

(36:00):
the most dumb stuff.
But when you're trying to proveyourself and you're trying to
be worthy, and you know you'reworried about your salvation,
and that's all you know to beworthy, and you know you're
worried about your salvation,and that's all you know, you get
really worried and you getreally scared and you get like
okay, well, I guess I'm noteating corn anymore, right, you
know so, and all of it wasreally more to do with just his

(36:22):
paranoia, like he was justparanoid that people were not
going to follow, so let me seehow far I can push them, and and
if they respond, that meansthey're still, you know,
believers of me.
Yeah, a lot of.
It was just like control thepeople and see how much control
he could have.
And, yeah, not a good person.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yeah, it's really messed up.
How many wives did he haveagain?
It's really messed up.
How many wives did he haveagain?

Speaker 1 (36:50):
Oh, I don't even know .
He had upwards of 60.
When he went to prison, Ibelieve he had upwards of 60.
I'd have to ask.
A couple of my close friendswere married to him actually.
So a couple of the girls haveleft and we have a good
friendship now.
Um, but they were very young.

(37:10):
One of them was 12 when she gotmarried to him, which is just
so heart-wrenching because youknow he obviously did awful
things to her and just likebreaks my heart that that
actually happened.
But when you're in thatreligion you don't even know
like intimacy and anything likethat is never talked about ever.
Um, even when I got married, Ihad no idea what sex was or what

(37:34):
that was or how to do anythingyou know.
And so, um, it's just wild thatall that is going on behind
closed doors and not everdiscussed like you wouldn't
think, like even basics would be, you know, great for people to
know.
But yeah, so he had a lot ofwives.
I think it was upwards of 60.

(37:56):
I'm not 100% sure on the numberthere.

Speaker 2 (37:59):
That's just really crazy.
I mean, I remember thedocumentaries while they talked
about, you know, some of thesegirls that got married to Roland
as well and their first nightwith him and not knowing what
was expected, expected, but itwas just, you know, take off
your clothes, spread your legs,he'd roll on top of them and
then, just you know, they'd belike in the state of shock, like
what just happened.
Some, I think I remember inthat documentary one of the

(38:20):
girls said that she thought thatkissing would be would lead to
having a baby.
She had no idea that it was, um, walk me through like your
wedding.
How did all of that kind of panout for you?
And um, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:34):
So, um, our wedding I was 16 when we got married and,
um, it was just a very like.
They did a legal ceremony atthe laundromat i'm'm sure you
saw my funny reel but becausethey didn't really like anybody
on their property that wasn'tpart of the religion, then they

(38:55):
had us meet in a public space todo our legal wedding.
And so we both show up to ourlegal wedding and we get married
and we both leave in differentvehicles because we weren't
married by the religion yet, sothey didn't count that as being
a real marriage yet.
And so later that day we had areligious ceremony back on the

(39:21):
property, back on the community,and yeah, and then I went home
with him that night and it wasjust like, okay, this is wild
him that night and it was justlike okay, um, this is wild.
And um, the first night we bothjust laid there in bed like
next to each other, just silent,and didn't say a word, and we
were just like, uh, you know soawkward how well, did you know

(39:43):
him at this?
point.
I didn't know him, like I hadseen him in church a couple
times and I knew that I wasgoing to marry him because they
had told me, but I didn't knowhim on any like we'd never had
like actual real conversationsAnyway.
And so we laid there next toeach other and we were both like
we're supposed to go to churchthe next day because it was a

(40:06):
Saturday and I was like let'snot go to church, I don't want
anyone to stare at us Like Idon't want to go to church.
And you know, and we never,ever got intimate or anything
till after, after we both leftand all of that, which is kind
of wild, because we weren'ttaught anything about it, so

(40:27):
obviously we weren't going torush into doing it.
We weren't taught anythingabout it, so obviously we
weren't going to rush into doingit.
And I was Cade's first wife andso he didn't really know what he
was supposed to do.
Like you know he said earlier,he was like you would think
there would be a handbook orsomething on, like okay, this is
what you do.
But it wasn't until a yearafter we were married, when we

(40:53):
had both left the religion andwe got got together outside of
the religion that we were like,oh yeah, you know that's what
this is.
But I know that there's severalgirls my age that, again, just
like you said with rulin's wifeum, got raped on their wedding
night, you know, and it's justawful and I'm just so grateful
that I had a man that was kindand gentle and listened to me

(41:14):
and yeah, and didn't forcehimself on me.
I mean, it's just, it's soawkward anyway when you have
never have like we're closedfrom neck to ankle our whole
life and then, just leaving andgetting to learn all that was a

(41:35):
lot of information.

Speaker 2 (41:36):
Yeah, you would think that at least, if not the
females, that they would trainthe males because they want them
to have more children.
So this is how you do it, thisis what you should be doing,
kind of thing, and but they sortof like just expected people to
just know, like how, how to,how to go about it and yeah,
it's so weird to me.

Speaker 1 (41:57):
And then, yeah, just not knowing was scary to just be
like.

Speaker 2 (42:02):
Oh well, I don't know , you have like to call him a
certain name.
Was there certain ways that youhad to address him and
communicate with him?

Speaker 1 (42:10):
Not really, they called him your priesthood head,
like your leader, like yourhusband was always your
priesthood head, but we didn'treally have to address him by
any certain name, right, it wasjust like known that that's who
he was.

Speaker 2 (42:29):
Right, just like known that that's who he was, so
Right.
And so if you disobeyed him oryou said no to him for something
, would that be considered badfor you, like a sin almost.

Speaker 1 (42:38):
Yeah, and that's part of the reason why I even ended
up leaving and everything wasbecause I started to say no to
him and I started to be like,well, I actually don't know that
I want to be married and Idon't really want to do that and
I don't want to wait on you andI'm 16, and I don't really want
to do your laundry and maybeyou could do your own laundry,
you know.
And just, I was being a rebelif you would, and it was

(42:59):
considered very, you know,disobeying.
And so him being my priesthoodhead, was like trying to
encourage me to oh, we need todo better.
You're not doing what we need.
The prophet needs us to do this.
And I was just like no, and soI was kind of the rebel and
ended up leaving first because Iwas just like I don't like this

(43:22):
, this isn't great.

Speaker 2 (43:25):
Love it.
How did you leave?
What was the procedure?

Speaker 1 (43:33):
it?
How did you leave?
Like what was the procedure?
So I actually was pretty luckyin that aspect.
My parents were kind of sick ofme rebelling and like, were just
kind of fed up with me, like,oh my gosh, this teenage girl
she won't get me, she won't staymarried, you know, she won't do
what we need her to do.
And so one of my aunts had leftlike 20 years ago now, like 40,
but years and years ago, and Ihad never met her.

(43:54):
But she had left the religionand she agreed to take me in,
and so my parents just took meand dropped me off at her house.
Oh wow, I had never met her andI'd never, like ever, seen her
in real life.
And they just took me anddropped me off there because she
said she would take me in.
And so that was wild and like alot of stress for me to be like,

(44:17):
oh my gosh, this is a whole newworld this is.
You know, there's so muchinformation to intake in that,
but.
But so it was a little biteasier for me to leave, I think,
physically, than a lot of thegirls, but emotionally it was
really really hard to grasp thatwhat I was giving up was

(44:38):
forever and it was my salvationand it was my eternity.
And you know, I knowing thatwhen I left, I was leaving all
my friends and I was leavingeverybody that I knew and I was
leaving my family, it was reallyhard leaving all my friends and
I was leaving everybody that Iknew and I was leaving my family
.
Um, it was really hard, uh, butI think I just had this pull of

(45:00):
just there has to be somethingmore like I can't, this can't be
all there is.
You know, this, this can't be it.
I wasn't born to do this, youknow.
And just like I couldn't evershake that feeling of like there
must be more to life than this.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
What was it like for your family that stayed in to
have to, you know, tell thepriesthood or tell the prophet
that, look, one of our daughtersis left.
Was there a lot of punishment?
Was there a lot of shame aroundthat?

Speaker 1 (45:28):
Yeah, there's tons of shame around if you leave, and
I had already created a lot ofthat shame for my parents
because I had been the rebelthat didn't want to stay married
and I, you know, I wanted tomove back to my parents' house
and I had created kind of ascene that way, and so I think,
in a way, it was a relief for meto leave for them, but it was

(45:48):
also like very shaming, liketheir daughter had left, you
know, and now she was nevergoing to go to heaven, they were
never going to see her again,you know, and there's this shame
around it.
Um, that's just so damning, youknow, so final and so damning,
and it puts their, their family,in the shadows.
If you would, you're just notas good of a family if you have

(46:09):
people that are leaving, youknow, and so I always joke, but,
like Mulan, dishonor on you,dishonor on your family you know
, dishonor on your cow.
You know all of that I alwayssay that phrase just like for
funny, but it's true, Like itwas just like the biggest shame
for them and hard for them.
I'm sure to like justify it.

(46:30):
And true, like it was just likethe biggest shame for them and
hard for them, I'm sure to likejustify it and talk about it um
but I already knew, like I'dalready felt that sense of I
didn't belong when I had left myhusband and moved back to my
parents.
Very briefly, then, it was thisjust shame everywhere I turned
right and what about for yourhusband?

Speaker 2 (46:48):
how did he come to terms with this and realize that
, hey, like, actually I don'twant to be a part of this as
well?

Speaker 1 (46:54):
so he we were actually talking about it on a
different podcast the other dayand he said that when he came
home and I had all of my stuffmoved out of the house and I was
no longer there, we'd only beenmarried for like eight weeks,
like it had been that long.

(47:16):
Then he was like, when thathappened I just packed up all my
stuff and left and I never knew, because I just was like I
don't want to talk to him, Idon't know him, I don't have
anything, I don't have anythingto do with him, like whatever he
can live his life, you know,and so I didn't really care or
didn't know when he left, but hesaid it was when he came home
and all my stuff was gone thathe was like F, this I'm not

(47:37):
going to be a part of thisanymore.
And then he had left thereligion and moved to Salt Lake.

Speaker 2 (47:47):
So moved out of where we were at.
That's crazy Cause.
Yeah, you would think that,like he would, uh, try to, like
you know, have more wives and,you know, be more deeper into it
, but it's, it's great that youkind of, you know, inspired him
to take that kind of stance andjust be like no, I'm going to do
this for myself.
Um, did, did you notice thatthere were other people also
that kind of were empowered byyour decision?

Speaker 1 (48:16):
Not for a couple years, I don't think it was for
at least a year or so later thatsome of my friends reached out
and started to leave and startedto talk to me and then, yeah,
like I said, I've got dang nearevery single one of my siblings
are out of it now and so a lotof them have reached out and
I've had a lot of impact on thatand been their safe space to
leave and come to.
And you know, there's a lot ofthings and good that we've done,
but it took a while for peopleto reach out because I was, you

(48:42):
know, so evil.

Speaker 2 (48:44):
Yeah, yeah, imagine that.
How long did it sort of takeyou to accept that you're gonna
be fine outside of it?

Speaker 1 (48:57):
how do I remind myself that on the daily it's a
constant thing.
I I talk to my husband about ita lot and we do a lot of I say a
lot of self-therapy withourselves, but, um, of just like
reminding ourselves that we areokay and not looking for that
external validation.

(49:17):
It took me a long time, a longtime, to feel comfortable making
a decision, to feel comfortablein my own skin, to even be able
to, you know, not need Cade'sconstant approval, not need my
husband's constant approval tofeel okay with that.
So I don't know if that I everwill be like oh, I'm good now,

(49:39):
you know, I'm healed, you know.
But I think that it's just aconstant reminder for me of just
like you are enough, you'reokay, you're safe, you know, um,
for me, I'm just like you areenough, you're okay, you're safe
.
You know, because when yourwhole childhood has been built
around such deep fear andshaming, it is in your soul that
you have to keep remindingyourself like I am safe, right,

(50:02):
I am okay, and it it's hard,it's a lot, and there's a lot,
of a lot of therapy and a lot ofthings you can do, but when
it's an ingrained belief, it'sreally, really a lot of work to
get over that.

Speaker 2 (50:17):
Yeah, I know there's a thing called deprogramming
therapy.
Is that the kind of therapythat you took, and can you walk
me through?
How does that work?

Speaker 1 (50:26):
I actually haven't done deprogramming therapy.
I might need to.
Still, I did a lot of like EMDRand I've done a lot of talk
therapy, a lot of trauma therapy.
I worked with a traumatherapist for a lot of years but
most of it has been us justreally finding joy and finding

(50:46):
the things that make us feelgood and really leaning towards
that and, like I'm talking likenature therapy, we do a lot of
mountain biking, we do a lot ofhiking, we do a lot of getting
outside with our kids and we doa lot of self-therapy with
ourselves.
Like I said, we talk a lot aboutit when we're talking about

(51:09):
something as in-depth as this.
I think one of the reasons thatmine and Cade's marriage has
worked out is because both of usunderstand the depth of
brainwash that we've came fromright.
Both of us understand the fearand the shaming and all of that,
and so we've worked hard andyou know we do a lot of joking

(51:31):
about it and I'm sure you saw myInstagram.
I do a lot of like making lightof it, because if I can't laugh
at my trauma, then you knownobody else can.

Speaker 2 (51:40):
That's true.
No, that's true.

Speaker 1 (51:42):
A lot of it has just been a learning process, and I
think one of the biggest thingswe focus on is that we're not
going to pass this on to ourkids and our kids are not going
to have to deal with this, andso we've just been so solid in
stopping it and breaking thecycle and figuring it out, how
to break every cycle that wepossibly could, every financial

(52:06):
barrier, every education barrier, everything that we could for
our kids, every financialbarrier, every education barrier
, everything that we could forour kids that we didn't have
that support in, that we had tofigure out from the ground up
and that we've had to learn fromabsolutely nothing.
And we I mean it's kind ofamazing.
We've both put ourselvesthrough school, we helped each
other with that.
I have a master's degree innursing and Cade is a life

(52:30):
flight air medical pilot for andflies helicopters, and we have,
just like, done so much work,as far as even that goes, in
just providing a better life andcreating a better life instead
of just wishing we could youknow, so I think a lot of it is

(52:50):
action versus sitting andtalking about it too is we've
taken a lot of action.

Speaker 2 (52:56):
So I mean I got to give you credit because I mean
life for a person.
I mean I was born and raised ina city, I was exposed to
everything under the sun andthere's still things that I
struggle with, you know and so Ican imagine like for you,
you've literally lived twocomplete different worlds.
To have to shed certainunderstandings of the world or

(53:17):
certain beliefs that you weretaught were bad.
It's really hard as an adultbecause the more we age, the
more we become more set in ourways and our mentalities.
We age, the more we become moreset in our ways and our
mentalities.
So to have to do a complete 180shift is hard.
And then to have children andunderstand and accept that they
might have completely differingopinions and they're going to

(53:41):
stand up to you and be like no,mom, I don't agree.
For you to have to, you know,be okay with that and celebrate
that as well is I can't.
I just I can't imagine it.
I just can't imagine it.
I really can't imagine it.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
It's definitely just exactly like you said.
It feels like two differentlifetimes, like I look at my
life in the religion and my lifebefore me and Cade, and it
feels like I feel like I shouldbe like 50 or 60 years old and
I'm only 38,.
You know, and I'm like I feellike I have lived enough
lifetimes in all of this that Ishould be like at least 60 years

(54:18):
old.
You know, like come on.
But, I also look at it and I Ithink that when my kids do stand
up for up to me and when theydo push back, I celebrate that
in that I've created a safespace that they can, because I
was never allowed to do that, Iwas never allowed to have a
voice and I was never allowed toquestion, and so when my kids

(54:41):
question me, I'm excited, youknow, and yes, there's some
times where I'm like, shut thefuck up and just do what I said,
like I want to be, like no,just do it.
Because I said but then I'mlike, no, just look at it, as
you've created a spot that theyfeel safe enough to challenge
you and you should, like youshould be able to answer those
questions and have a reason whyyou know it shouldn't just be

(55:04):
because I said so I don't, Idon't agree with that on
parenting, and so I I thinkthose are the things that we
celebrate in, that is, that youknow we have been able to create
that for our kids.
And it is wild.
It's wild to think what you cando in one generation Right, and

(55:25):
it really makes me likequestion the narrative where
people are like well, they, yourparents, did their best and
it's just like did they.

Speaker 2 (55:37):
That was their best it's just like did they?

Speaker 1 (55:39):
that was their best, like you know.
Like man, I sure hope that mybest is a little bit better than
that, because that was not fun,you know yeah and so I don't
know.
I hold empathy for them in thecircumstances they had and at
the same time it was not, notright, you know so.

Speaker 2 (55:56):
That makes sense.
How did you and your husbandreconnect again after?

Speaker 1 (56:02):
Long story short is I reached out to him to talk
about getting a divorce becauseI was legally married to him,
right, so I couldn't go toschool, I couldn't do anything
because he was my legal guardian, and so when you get married
underage in Canada, then yourparents sign your custody over

(56:24):
to your husband.
Actually, that we, since we hadbeen married, that I started
reaching out and asking him,like trying to find him and talk
to him, and that's when I foundout that he had left and he was
living in Salt Lake, but he'dleft the religion.
And I was kind of like, oh,that's interesting, you know.

(56:44):
And so we started talking onthe phone and we just kind of
started having conversationabout, well, I guess, yeah, come
to Salt Lake and we'll figureout, you know, get a divorce and
we'll do all these things.
Well, I went to Salt Lake and Imet up with him and I was
enamored and I was just like, ohmy gosh, this kid is like he's

(57:08):
completely different.
You know, he's wearing a t-shirt, he's all tan, he's like he's
out in the sun, he's working out, he's buff.
Here I am a 17 year old likejust like, oh my gosh, like wow,
you're kind of hot, you know,um, and I mean it doesn't out
that I didn't really have anyfriends or know many people, but

(57:29):
I was just like wow, um, well,we hung out and we didn't talk
about getting a divorce, notonce, and it was just kind of
like we talked about all of thethings we were learning, like we
talked about new music.
He introduced me to Metallicaand like we're like talking
about all these things that areall brand new, like friends, and
like the season finale was onand you know, like all this
stuff that we had neverexperienced, that now we're both

(57:50):
experiencing for the first time.
That was just amazing, right.
And then he came up to Canadawith one of our mutual friends.
And that's when I kind ofapproached him and was like hey,
what if we just you know, givethis a shot in

(58:13):
like know, um, and then we, weended up like he.
He was like, okay, like maybelet's give it a shot.
We ended up going swimming andstuff, and I joke, and I'm like
he.
And then he took his shirt offand I was like, oh you know,
that wasn't something we wereused to, yeah, and I was like,
and he was so hot, I was waslike, oh my gosh, you know, and

(58:36):
now I'm 17 at the time, so I was, of course, attracted to him,
yeah, and so we, yeah, we endedup talking and creating a
friendship.
And then, yeah, I just moved toUtah with him, yeah, and I told
him, hey, well, I guess if itdoesn't work out, we can just
get divorced.

Speaker 2 (58:55):
Yeah, exactly Worst case scenario which we
originally planned from thebeginning.
Anyway.

Speaker 1 (59:13):
Do you reckon that you two would have been together
had it not been for this FLDSdebacle?
I don't think so, because Idon't know that I ever would
have talked to him again had wenot been legally married.
I think that if we hadn't beenlegally married, I probably
would have been like see youlater, you know, and never,
really ever, reached out to himagain.
I was almost like I had to,because I needed to get a
divorce in order to like come on, because I was legally married,

(59:35):
right, and so I don't thinkthat no, I think it was we would
have not talked to each otherever again.
Imagine that.

Speaker 2 (59:43):
Imagine that, okay, that's one thing that they did
right here you gotta give themcredit for.
But I wonder, like I wonderwhat it must have been like for
your parents and your siblings,and like everyone inside the
group, to be like what.
They never even got a divorceat the end.
What's going on here?

Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
Well, it was so funny because years later I heard
that they were using us as agood example in that because God
wanted them to be together,like that's why they're together
is because God placed themtogether, and I was just like,
no, that's not why we'retogether.

Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
Totally our choice, please.

Speaker 1 (01:00:20):
Wow, that's amazing, that's wild.

Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
What was it like then , both of you sort of unraveling
and discovering basically thisworld together?
I guess it must have been kindof like calming, like he must
have been a comfort place foryou because you had so much
familiarity and you had ahistory, you know, being in the
group and out the group.
What would you say Like how wasthat for you both?

Speaker 1 (01:00:45):
Yeah, it was.
He was very calming for me andhe's always been and I say this
like even through all of our youknow struggles, if you would.
He had always been super kindto me and he'd never been like
aggressive or rude or likedemanding.
You know, he had tried toencourage me to do what the
priesthood wanted back when wewere in the religion and all of

(01:01:06):
that, but he'd never been, neverput me down or never like
really made me uncomfortable,right, which I think like played
in his favor because it made mefeel like I could talk to him.
And so when we did get together,I mean, obviously we had so
much unraveling to do and westill like to this day unravel

(01:01:26):
different things off of eachother where we're like look back
and we're like, oh yeah, likethat didn't make sense, but we
overall were just enamored withlife, like we loved each other,
we were excited to be together.
We had this whole new freedomof dressing the way we wanted,
of listening to music, of eatingwhat we wanted, of doing what

(01:01:46):
we wanted and obviously gotpregnant very quickly because we
didn't know about birth control.
So we have a 19 year old, butyeah, so we, um, we're very
excited about life and then wegot pregnant and we were just
like, oh my gosh, now we'regoing to be parents and we got
to figure out how to be parentsin this life, and so, um, yeah,

(01:02:08):
it was a lot of work and a lotof like figuring things out as
we went and a lot of, a lot ofstruggle and a lot of growing
together.
And, you know, we we learned somuch together with each other
and, yeah, I don't know, um, Ithink that it's still a process
in what we're doing, though,like, I think we're still

(01:02:30):
learning and growing and, um,yeah, just trying to be the best
we can for our kids, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
Yeah, yeah.
What would you say was like oneof the hardest things you've
had to kind of deal with on apersonal level on coming out.

Speaker 1 (01:02:47):
The loss of community and family was definitely one
of my top things that I'vegrieved was definitely one of my
top things that I've grieved,because I grew up in such a
close community and I saw howclose everybody was and how
everybody helped with eachother's kids and everybody
helped with the families andeverybody was like it was one
big, huge family ultimately.

(01:03:08):
And so leaving and feeling thatloneliness and knowing that I
didn't have that community and Ididn't have my parents and I
didn't have my siblings likethat was the hardest part and
emotionally still is.
The hardest part is that I willnever get that right.
I will not have grandparentsfor my kids that are engaged and

(01:03:31):
part of their life and I won'thave those things or
grandparents that come and helpwith my babies or you know, that
was something that was so hardfor me was doing all of that by
myself and, at the same time,processing all of the newness of
the world and figuring out howto go to school and how to do

(01:03:51):
all of that and doing schoolwith young children.
Um, but doing it without acommunity and doing it without
family was actually just so damnhard.
Um, because I'd seen thesupport that there could be in
community and that was just.
It's still like I'm like whereis my effing community?

(01:04:15):
Like I need a community you know, and I'm still like trying to
build that and find that, but itjust it was really difficult
for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
I'm going to ask you one last question before we end.
I have so many things to ask,but we'll cut it here.
Last question to ask, but we'llcut it here.
Last question For anyone that'ssort of getting to know you
today what are some things thatyou would want them or hope that
they would know and understandabout you kind of coming out and

(01:04:47):
going through the lifeexperience that you've gone
through?

Speaker 1 (01:04:52):
I would just hope that they would approach with
empathy, um, for not reallyunderstanding what it's like to
be brainwashed.
And um, for me, like one of mybiggest things is I always try
to find the good and I alwaystry to find joy.
And in therapy I learned it wascalled glimmers, and so I

(01:05:16):
actually that's.
My brand is glimmers.
But glimmers are the oppositeof triggers, right, and so when
you have triggers, they're bad,bad things, but glimmers are
those little glimpses of hope.
And for me, I've just focusedso hard on finding those, even
in the hardest and deepest anddarkest moments, of just finding

(01:05:38):
something to be grateful forand finding little things that
just will spark joy and keepgoing along the way and finding
the good.
And I know it's not possible,and I'm not talking like toxic
positivity, where it's like justbe grateful.
I'm not I toxic positivitywhere it's like just be grateful
.
You know I'm not.
I'm talking about authentic,like you know what, let's, let's

(01:05:59):
just find some little tinylittle thing to be grateful for,
you know?
But, um, yeah, just that, I've,I've been through a lot, but
that doesn't define who I am andI'm yeah yeah so I don't know,

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
I love that, share the work that you're doing right
now with us and your socialsand everything.
So if anyone wants to learn alittle bit more how they can
reach you it, and so we'reexcited for that to come out.

Speaker 1 (01:06:38):
We just started sharing on socials not too long
ago, so it's been kind of a newthing for me, but my Instagram
is and MFJ.
And then I also have TikTok,which is Cades Babe, so
C-A-D-E-S-E-A-B-E, and I have afew things on both of those.
I'm hoping to build them upmore.
I have a company calledGlimmers, where we focus on
bringing joy, and I haveclothing that I designed that

(01:07:01):
sparks joy, so that's really fun.
And then also I work as a nurse.
So that's, that's who I am.

Speaker 2 (01:07:10):
Congratulations to you honestly for like how far
you've come and how you knowyou've really turned adversity
into something really beautiful.
So, yeah, hats off to you forthat thank you so much.
I appreciate that thanks forbeing on multispectrum and
sharing your journey with ustoday yeah, thank you for having
me, it's been fun if youenjoyed the episode and would

(01:07:36):
like to help support the show,please follow and subscribe.
You can rate and review yourfeedback on any of our platforms
listed in the description.
I'd like to recognize ourguests who are vulnerable and
open to share their lifeexperiences with us.
Thank you for showing us we'rehuman.
Also, a thank you to our teamwho worked so hard behind the
scenes to make it happen.
Stefan Menzel, lucas Piri theshow would be nothing without

(01:08:00):
you.
I'm Jenica, host and writer ofthe show, and you're listening
to Multispective.
Thank you.