May 21, 2021 • 47 mins
Would you snog Othello? We've always asked the truly important questions, and this series will be no different.
We're back! We've got wonderful guests! We're still on zoom and we still hate it! For this first episode of series 3, Meg and Sara chat to Anjna Chouhan off of the Shakespeare Birthplace Trust, who has 2 - 2! - of her own podcasts: Shakespeare Alive and Shakespeare's Pants.
Anjna patiently answers our silly little questions, like: are there any of Shakespeare's possessions still kicking about? What does it feel like sending emails every day from the place where the literal Bard was born? Most importantly, who's the fittest Shakespearean actor?
It's Helen Mirren.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Meg (00:03):
Also just before you came on, then I realised I know I
probably I probably said thisbefore, but I really realised
today that like this like withthe microphone, Kylie?
Sara (00:12):
Yeah.
Meg (00:12):
Right, hello it's us and welcome to the Museums'n That
podcast where each episode wehave a chinwag and serve you the
steaming hot tea on the thingsthat museum people love the
most. We're your hosts Meg andSara from Leeds Museums and
Galleries, and we get to knowthe people behind the objects by
asking them the questions thatyou really want to know.
(00:47):
It's actually like it's gotan M on it for
Sara (00:51):
something really horrible.
Meg (00:53):
What! What were you going to say
Sara (00:54):
I was going to say moron which is horrible, and not true
Meg (00:58):
You've become so savage between series two and three.
But series three - exciting.
Sara (01:04):
It is very exciting because we were putting off
doing it for a while because wedon't like doing it on here. But
we've got over it. And we'rereally excited for this new
series. And if I say excited onemore time, I'm going to need to
swallow a dictionary.
Meg (01:17):
Mate, I feel like this same for everyone but lockdown three
really did me . My motivationwas just so bad. You know, when
you're just like on email thatyou just need to send and you
just put it off. That was seriesthree. I also went through a
phase where for like, a week,every time I sent a work email,
I would reward myself with anepisode of Diners, Drive-ins and
Dives. It meant that my workingday was literally 12 hours long
(01:41):
because I was just cutting it upwith Guy Fieri going into loads
of restaurants in flavortown.
Sara (01:46):
Yeah, but you have a really good t shirt of Diners
and Drive-ins and Dives.
Meg (01:50):
So basically I had Coronavirus - I ordered myself a
t-shirt and like in the midst ofthe delirium and it's a Diners
Drive-ins and Dives t-shirt butit's like a mash up with
Dungeons and Dragons. It's likea dragon and but the dragon has
Guy Fieri's hair and sunglasses.
Sara (02:08):
Amazing.
Meg (02:10):
That's actually probably my best thing from this week and
any other week. Go on, what'swhat's happened with you?
Sara (02:15):
Really nothing to be honest. Had a birthday, had a
wedding anniversary. Meg boughtme a rose and the best bit about
it is it's called Dame JudiDench off off actual Dame Judi
Dench.
Meg (02:27):
Yeah. Got you Judi.
Sara (02:29):
So she's in a pot, and I've done everything that it
said to do with her. And if shedies, I will give up with
gardening because I don't knowwhat else to do.
Meg (02:37):
Right? So go on, series three.
Sara (02:39):
Oh, yeah. Series three, we decided that we would push
ourselves out of our LeedsMuseums comfort zone.
Meg (02:44):
Can you hear these swallows? By the way? If I do
that?
Sara (02:47):
No.
Meg (02:47):
Can you not? Right. Thought that was loud. Go on. Tell you
what was loud - me justinterrupting you doing that. Go
on.
Sara (02:52):
Yeah, a little bit. I thought you meant actual bird
Swallows then as well. I wasreally impressed. You just meant
swallowing your tea. Yeah, sowe've decided that we will
travel back in time for ourfirst episode. And I was like,
it's gonna be a simpler time.
Like there wasn't the internetand Donald Trump and you had
fewer things to worry about. Butone big thing they did have to
(03:15):
think about at this time was thebubonic plague. AKA black death.
So yeah, bad. And then Ithought, oh, god, it's kind of
similar to now isn't it? Andthat wasn't intentional. But
here we are. So that's about it.
Meg (03:28):
I literally forgot how funny it is when you explain
things it's amazing. Okay, sowe're in the way what century
are we in? 16?
Sara (03:37):
Yeah, yeah. Well, it kind of spans. It spans a couple.
It's Elizabethan Jacobean.
Meg (03:42):
I literally did History at uni. And I still get confused
with centuries. Like, I think Ihave to double check in my head
and go right, it's literallylike one above what it actually
is.
Sara (03:52):
Yeah. Well about this time, when said subject was
born, wasn't it the change ofthe calendar...
Meg (03:59):
Why aren't you telling people what it is? You're
allowed to say, they'relistening.
Sara (04:03):
Oh, yeah. Yeah, Shakespeare. So our guest today
is Anjna Chouhan. She is fromShakespeare's Birthplace Trust,
and she is a senior lecturer.
She is a doctor of Shakespeare.
She absolutely loves it and welove her for it.
Meg (04:19):
Anjna is coming on to tell us all about Shakespeare's
Birthplace Trust and thecollections there and literally
answer all of our silly littlequestions about Shakespeare
Sara (04:30):
I'm so glad we've come into series three with a really
(laughing).
confident, non-imposter syndromeattitude.
Meg (04:36):
Yeah, no, we're amazing.
Really, really good. Also, I betthis episode, you're going to
bring up the fact that thecolour purple was only worn by
Royals, because you've talkedabout that endlessly for the
last like two weeks after youresearched it.
Sara (04:49):
Anjna's gonna put it right and say that's correct. Sara.
You're absolutely right. So.
Meg (04:53):
Brilliant. I hope you do.
Here we go, everyone, it's AnjnaChouhan's episode of Museums
n'That. I feel like I shouldhave said that in Shakespearean?
Forsooth, Anjna Chouhan... Idon't know any other Shakespeare
words. I bet there is a thingonline where you could just
translate it. (typing andlaughing) I just typed - sorry
(laughing) - , I just typedMuseums n'That into the
(05:15):
Shakespeare translator. And it'sMuseums and Yond. Right, here's
Anjna Chouhan's episode ofMuseums n'Yond. Enjoy. Firstly,
thank you so much, Anjna, forcoming on the pod. I'm literally
so excited. I've got so manyquestions to ask you. But first,
(05:37):
please, can you tell our lovelypodcast listeners who you are
and what you do?
Anjna (05:43):
Well, first of all, hello, Meg. Hi, Sara. It's it's
such an honour to be invited. Sothank you. And for your
wonderful listeners. My name isAnjna Chouhan, and I work at the
Shakespeare birthplace trust inStratford upon Avon, where I
have the pleasure of beingSenior Lecturer in Shakespeare
studies. So I have the absoluteaudacity to assume that I know
(06:04):
and can talk about Shakespeareall day.
Meg (06:07):
The first question we have Anjna is, what's your best
Shakespeare play? What's yourbest one?
Anjna (06:11):
(laughing) This is really this. I'm really curious about
what other questions you've gotlined up for me. But people
often ask me that and withoutsounding boring., it really
depends on my mood. But in termsof my favourite or my best, it
kind of rotates between, like abunch of really depressing one.
(06:31):
So it rotates between King Learand Measure for Measure. And
Hamlet, and I absolutely loveTroilus and Cressida, and yeah,
I just I kind of love them all.
Well, there are a few I don'tlike so much.
Meg (06:43):
What's your worst one?
Anjna (06:44):
Ah, this is kind of controversial, but you know,
whatever. I really hate and Imean, hate The Tempest. I think
it's just I think it's such awaste of time. I genuinely don't
think that people would give itthe time of day if if we
suddenly discovered that it wasby Fletcher or Middleton for
example.
Sara (07:04):
The absolute sass.
Meg (07:05):
The Tempest is actually my favourite one.
Anjna (07:07):
So I am sorry. Why did you like it?
Meg (07:12):
I just feel like I like anything involving like the sea.
And also I like the adaptationwhere it's Helen Mirren as
Prospero. I feel like HelenMirren's just sensational.
Anjna (07:24):
Ben Wishaw aswell, because he played Ariel in that
one.
Meg (07:26):
He sure does. This actually brings me on nicely to our next
question, which is, so we knowwhat your best one is. But
what's your best adaptation one?
Anjna (07:35):
Oh my word. I don't really know where to start. One
of the most memorable thingsthat I've ever seen, isn't
Sara (07:38):
That's adorable.
actually Shakespeare. But one ofthe most memorable Shakespeare's
Anjna (07:42):
When we were talking about this, it was all like
that I've seen was GregoryDoran's production of Julius
Caesar. And it was with an allblack company. Absolutely love
that production. It waprofound. The play is astoundin
based around like who thefittest people were in each of
anyway, and it had Ray Fearonin it so I had my mother sat n
xt to me kind of elbowing me ithe ribs going look at that. L
(08:03):
ok at that.
the adaptations like that one ofwhat's it called? The one where
it's like Keanu Reeves.
Oh, Much Ado About Nothing.
Meg (08:18):
Yeah, literally so fit it's crazy.
Sara (08:21):
What an excellent human being. So, this is more of a
serious question. I suppose. Itried to do a bit of research on
you. But then I got reallyintimidated because I did
English at University andShakespeare was hard. But I
would like to know what yourspecial interest is particularly
for Shakespeare.
Anjna (08:40):
Wow, this is really good question. Sara. Thank you. And
I'm sorry that you wereintimidated. That is just not
the intention. I hope I'm likecuddly and friendly and not...
Sara (08:49):
Yeah, absolutely. Not intimidated by you as a person
but by the Shakespeare world.
It's just so massive. And Imean, yeah, to try and hold that
in your brain is incredible.
Anjna (09:00):
I have a go, I attempt.
And I would say that myspecialism has been Shakespeare
in the 19th century, anythingVictorian kind of completely
floats my boat, as well asShakespeare. So I kind of
combine the two, butspecifically, and apologies to
your listeners who might befalling asleep at this point,
but it was specifically aboutthe church and maybe like
(09:20):
anti-Catholic responses toShakespeare or pro-Catholic
responses to Shakespeare and howShakespeare got co-opted by the
Church of England to supportsome of its themes or maybe kind
of non-conformist...
non-conformist celebrations ofthings like tetotalism weirdly,
and and how he got kind ofinvolved in those sorts of
(09:42):
debates and became popular. Butsince I started working at the
trust, which was in 2012, I'vekind of... Well I've branched
out back into the early modernperiod. So I have like a massive
interest in early modern cultureand early modern theatre and
audiences (09:59):
who they were, what they were like, what their
behaviour was like. So yeah, Ikind of just talk about all of
those things.
Meg (10:06):
Anjna, you mentioned that about working with the
Shakespeare birthplace trust. Sohave you always been a lecturer
there?
Anjna (10:14):
This is I mean, the trust is a really complex
organisation. It's wonderful itis it is a museum. But it also
has a collection, and it has aneducation department. And so I
sit within its Education team.
As a lecturer. You're quiteright. So I went in, I was
employed as a full timelecturer. And then in 2018, I
became senior lecturer, which isamazing. I'm still amazed that
they trusted me so much to giveme that title. And I guess I
(10:37):
exist over at the highereducation, secondary school
leisure learner level. So I kindof talk to those audiences.
Meg (10:46):
You mentioned there about the collection, and I really
want to find out more about it.
So what is what is thecollection there like?
Anjna (10:53):
Our- so it is kind of like yours, incredibly broad. It
was, I mean, it was started in1847. The first thing we
collected if you like, wasShakespeare's birthplace. And we
have five historical properties,which are our visitor
attractions, but they are museumobjects. So they constitute, I
guess, the cornerstones of thecollection. But we also have
(11:14):
documents and books, we have alibrary. And we have a separate
museum collection as well, allof which forms one of the
largest Shakespeare collectionsin the world. And it's one of
the most formidable. There arearound about 103 documents that
refer to Shakespeare during hislifetime, that refer to him by
(11:36):
name, 103 of those that exist,and the trust holds 31 of those.
So that's an enormous privilege.
So we've got really cool stufflike that. But we also have
really quirky fun things. Legodonated us a bust of
Shakespeare, which is just oneof the coolest things I've ever
seen. It took them nine days tomake, but it's got like, it's
(11:58):
got over 3000 pieces. It reallyis a wonderful thing. But their
collection is so vast. We'realso a local history archive. So
we often have the reading room,obviously pre-lockdown the
reading room's always full ofpeople who are kind of
researching their familyhistories. But yeah, it's it's a
wonderful archive. And there arestill things that we're
discovering within it. And likesome of the really cool things
(12:20):
that we've we've discovered overthe years, you know that they're
still coming to light. I mean, acouple years ago, I say a couple
I think it was 2017 we had aresearch student that was
working with us. And she found aversion of Herbert Beerbohm
Tree's production of JuliusCaesar, which he performed at
his own theatre, Her Majesty'sTheatre in the late 1890s. And
it was a hand illustratedversion of that text by an
(12:45):
artist called Ethel Waybelling.
And one of our students justkind of found it and we kind of
didn't know it was there. Itwasn't catalogued or anything.
So I mean, when we find thingslike that, it's just it's
really, really exciting. Andit's nice to be a part of that
discussion and the electricityof being in a kind of organic,
ever expanding collection.
Sara (13:08):
That's amazing.
Meg (13:08):
When you were saying about the documents that you've got,
so you said 31 that you've gotat the SBT. Do you call it the
SBT? By the way?
Anjna (13:16):
Yeah, SBT, we shorten it to SBT. Just generally, the
public don't have a clue whatwe're talking about.
Meg (13:22):
So one of our sites is Leeds Discovery Centre. But if
you work there, it's generallyknown as the disco. So it's like
just popping down to the disco.
But I forget that other peopledon't know what that means. But
so the documents that you'vegot, like, what kind of things?
Are they things that shape...
like... yeah, what are they?
Anjna (13:40):
Meg they are amazing. So they're... They range from
things like legal documents thattell us about land and property
that he purchased and owned,there are things that pertain to
his his family members, sothings that refer to his father
in particular, his father waskind of like a bit of a wheeler
dealer chappie. It's such afascinating, you can kind of
(14:03):
imagine, much of what we knowabout text Shakespeare kind of
is speculation, joining the dotsbetween all these documents that
we do have, but I think he candraw a pretty kind of clear
picture of who John Shakespearewas, it's sort of Del Boy of
early modern Stratford, I loveit's a great, it's a great
image. But there are alsodocuments of people referring to
(14:24):
him connecting him as aplaywright, as poet and as a man
from Stratford. And these arekind of the foundational bits of
evidence that we have thatconnect the, the man of
Stratford to the playwright ofLondon, to the actor in London,
to the property holder in inStratford itself. So those kinds
(14:46):
of documents are actuallyincredibly important and
valuable, but they're alsoreally just, they're just really
fun. Like, for example, there'sthere's a really fun document
from 1597 so the same year thatshakespeare bought New Place,
but his father ended up sellinga bit of his land on Henley
(15:06):
Street, which is where thebirthplace is. And I work in the
building next door to that. Andhe ended up selling less than a
yard of land to his neighbourGeorge Badger for some money and
you kind of think how desperatedo you need to be to be selling
less than less than a yard ofland.
Meg (15:25):
What's George badger doing with that land?
Anjna (15:29):
I don't know. 'Cause the document doesn't expound on on
his plans for it. But yeah, it'sjust sort of fun little things
like that. And actually, on thesubject of New Place, we do
actually have a student lookingat archaeological findings and
discoveries and trying toreimagine the interiors of what
New Place would have lookedlike. So there's that kind of
(15:51):
research like that, that goes onusing those documents and using
the kind of evidence that wehave and around the people who
lived in Stratfordcontemporaneous to Shakespeare.
Sara (16:01):
Wouldn't it be exciting if Farrow and Ball did a range and
it was like Shakespeare'sbreath, you know, they have
elephants breath. I mean, whatcolour palette would you go for?
I suppose you know, it's theit's the Golden Age, isn't it?
So there's, there's a lot goingon. Elizabethan, Jacobean, it's
just so much to work with.
Anjna (16:17):
I just imagine brown.
Sara (16:19):
I did think that I was like, come on, I gotta make it
more exciting.
Meg (16:23):
Right. Now we're talking about colours. The last week,
she's mentioned four times thatroyalty is connected to the
colour purple.
Anjna (16:33):
You're right, Sara.
Sara (16:35):
And I thought I might come dressed all in purple. And then
I realised I don't actually haveanything. But yeah, that paupers
weren't allowed to wear purple.
And it was kind of liketreasonous activity. If you have
the audacity to go around in apurple hoodie, obviously, then,
you know, Elizabeth was going tocome along, or James and not be
very happy about that.
Anjna (16:53):
You're quite right. It's an interesting one, because I
think they did politicisearound, you know, colours, but
primarily it was to do with whatyou were able to afford, because
realistically, most people justcouldn't afford any garments
that was dyed the colour purple.
I mean, it was it was anastoundingly expensive thing.
Meg (17:15):
Um, do you have any? Not you personally? Or you might? I
don't know. Do you have any likeof Shakespeare's clothes or like
belongings?
Anjna (17:23):
This is an excellent question, Meg. And it's, I mean,
in short, it's difficult to say,I mean, no. However, we do have
in our collection at the chest,a signet ring, that dates to the
late 1500s. And it has theinitials w s, on them on it,
rather, and it is it's widelyclaimed that it belonged to
(17:45):
William Shakespeare, but I mean,we're quite open about the fact
that we don't really know. Theonly belongings if you like, is
the house on Henley Street.
Because New Place that he boughtin 1597, it was called the Great
House. It was so fancy, it waslike he was totally making a
statement by buying it. But thatdoesn't exist anymore. It was
pulled down. First of all, bythe Clopton family who bought it
(18:07):
after his granddaughter died,she died without any heirs. So
their property passed out of thefamily. So they tore it down and
rebuilt something that was a bitmore to their tastes. And then,
years later, in the late 1700s,Reverend Gaskell purchased what
then was known as New Place, andhe was so... Well, rumour has it
(18:27):
that he was so fed up with allthe people trundling along to
his house and saying, 'can Ilook at Shakespeare's house,
please look at the mulberry treein the garden', he got so fed up
allegedly of that, that he torethe house down completely, so it
doesn't exist anymore. There'sjust the footprint of it. So
there isn't much that you know,physically belong to Him, or
that we can trace back to himpersonally. Although, over the
(18:49):
years, there have been so manyfascinating claims of like, ooh,
this chair is something he wouldhave sat in when he went to
visit that inn over inspitalfield or this was
something that he would havelaid down in or there's a bed
that we have at Anne Hathaway'sthat people often claim belonged
to him that he would have sleptin. But we kind of have no way
(19:10):
of verifying and I think that'spart of the excitement. The
Trust has been going since, youknow, officially since 1891.
They purchased the house in1847. So we've had hundreds of
years of people collecting andtelling fun stories about things
and some of the stuff in ourcollections is is kind of like
openly fake, you know, peoplejust donating things and saying,
(19:33):
Oh, this is a lock ofShakespeare's hair and it just
obviously isn't, but they'requite fun in and of themselves
about the kind of history if youlike of people, inventing
narratives around Shakespeareinventing souvenirs. So in
short, Meg no, but there is afascinating story to be told
about all of these things thatare allegedly connected to him.
Meg (19:57):
For sure. I feel like when I was looking on your website
and looking at the things that,like, were in the collection, a
lot of the stuff was about thetree, and the mulberry tree. And
like things being made out ofthe... like this, this chest is
made out of the mulberry tree.
And I'm like, as I was flickingthrough the pictures, I was
like, omg wow, like that thingis made out of wood that
Shakespeare, like had in hisgarden, like, how is that even a
(20:20):
thing that that makes you feel?
It's crazy. But do you ever getlike, do you ever get people
crying? Or like getting reallyoverwhelmed?
Anjna (20:29):
Do you know we have a wonderful set of guides in the
different properties, theyalways used to tell fantastic
stories of people from allaround the world. Our visitors
come from around about 86 plusdifferent countries in you know,
physically. And some of themtalk about it in terms of making
a pilgrimage like this is alifetime of wanting to come to
(20:53):
Stratford and pay their respectsand show their love and
appreciation, I guess. ForShakespeare's works and his
writing and how that's touchedthem personally. And absolutely,
there are people that that burstinto tears, people have burst
into spontaneous song. Iremember somebody telling me
once that there was a personthat had come from Japan who
just wanted to pray, they juststood still and just offered a
(21:17):
prayer in Shakespeare'sbirthroom. And I think I think
it represents an enormous kindof achievement, if you like for
so many people that they'vetravelled miles 1000s of miles
to come and just take a momentto be in a place that we know
Shakespeare was also in, and aplace that meant something to
(21:38):
him, the house that in which hewas born, the house that his
father lived in and died in. Itreally is such a powerful,
magical place to be.
Sara (21:47):
And I really want to go back now as well, though I have
I haven't been since I was earlyteens out.
Meg (21:53):
Oh, Anjna we're fully coming to see you after this.
Sara (21:56):
Definitely once the world gets back into some sort of
rhythm. We will be on a traindown to Stratford that will be
so exciting.
Anjna (22:03):
Oh I can't wait. I'll show you that lego bust.
Meg (22:06):
When you were saying about things being found out, like
still being found out and likethat student, who found that
book? Are things still being...
because like, if things in yourcollection aren't definitively
like certainly this belonged toShakespeare, is there still also
people that are like searchingfor things that they can
definitively say is? Or like -what are the things that are
(22:26):
like newly being discovered? Andlike, do you ever? Sorry, this
is literally the longestquestion of all time, but do you
ever, like uncover, like, movesomething and then uncover
something in the house? Or like,move something and find
something on the walls oranything like that?
Anjna (22:43):
Okay, this is a brilliant question or several questions.
So I'll address the kind offirst, bit initially, that
people are always looking forthings that have a specific
physical connection toShakespeare or a direct
connection to him. And it'sreally hard to verify those
things, you know, unless thereare documents, which is why
documents are very valued,because you can link them
(23:05):
straight to him. So something asprecious as Shakespeare's will,
is amazing. But looking foractual objects. I imagine there
are people that make a full timecareer out of doing this, but I
can't I can't quite imagine whatit is that they're finding. But
the thing is, that, in reality,Shakespeare died over 400 years
ago, right? So there's 400 yearsof stuff that accumulates not
(23:30):
just from him, but inspired byhim. And that's where the trust
gets, in my opinion, it getsexciting, and it really shines
because it becomes a repositoryfor documenting Shakespeare's
legacy. And so the stuff thatgets added to it is objects,
documents, books, and images aswell. And we hold the Royal
(23:53):
Shakespeare company's collectionto so we keep their prompt book.
So basically, this is continuingthe narrative of Shakespeare
throughout the centuries. Andbeing a Victorianist, it started
in the 19th century. So anythingfrom anything from the 19th
century, to me is just is isastounding. It's mind blowing. I
(24:13):
mean, I remember when I firststarted working at the Trust, I
went up to one of their shelves,and I just pulled something off
the shelf. And it was completelyrandom. It was in a like a long
box. It was a souvenir programmeof Herbert Beerbohm Tree's
production of Richard the thirdfrom 1903. It was enormous, like
really long, in the form of ascroll that I just unravelled.
(24:35):
And it was this beautiful handpainted picture of Tree and his
entire company acting outRichard the second. You know,
it's incredibly elaborate withgold script on it. But that was
just on a shelf in a strong roomthat people had sort of
forgotten about. So you canimagine that stuff like that is
being found all the time andstuff that we forget. We have an
(24:57):
incredible team of archivists,librarians and museum experts,
whose entire job is to take careof that stuff and they do a
superb job of it. They reallyknow what they're doing. And I
just kind of nose around andpoke in and out as and when. But
there absolutely is loads to bediscovered there. But Meg you
(25:18):
asked about the houses. It's soexciting because quite literally
just a handful of years ago,somebody was pootling around, I
think they might have been doingsome dating, some carbon dating
around the house. And they went,they opened one of the doors
that leads down to a miniaturekind of cellar, if you like,
round the back of the house thatleads into the garden. And they
(25:40):
discovered on the wall, a sortof little mark, which we
actually didn't know was therebefore. And it was little, it
turns out, it was a witch'smark, that people used to paint
onto the walls to ward away evilspirits so they don't sour the
ale. Because of course, peoplewere brewing their own ales, and
they would store them, you know,wherever they could store them.
(26:01):
And we know that part ofShakespeare's birthplace was
actually a tavern the Swan andMaidenhead inn for a long time.
And so it's likely that theypainted the witch's mark onto
the walls and stored the alesdown in that cellar and had the
marks to ward away all the evilgoblins and sprites and such, so
(26:22):
that they wouldn't spoil theirprecious alcohol. It's very
exciting.
Sara (26:26):
Okay, this was an interesting one, we had a bit of
a chat about this. So I did abit of I did a bit of looking
around. And obviously, withShakespeare's grave, that's a
really interesting thing initself. Doesn't it feel totally
bonkers that he's just rightthere? And isn't that just mad?
Meg (26:42):
The question here Anjna really is
mind?
Anjna (26:45):
Meg and Sara, it totally blows my mind. I think it does
for most people as well, but itmakes it so much more real. And
as you say, Sara, the graveitself is, you know, it's
wonderfully looked after by theHoly Trinity Church in Stratford
itself, and you can, you can goalong and take a look at it. It
really is... I mean, the churchitself is beautiful. And again,
(27:08):
it's sort of the Victoriansloved it too, you know, and they
did all sorts to it. Andobviously, Shakespeare's there
so they sort of venerated it.
But the bust over the grave, aswell, quite aside from the grave
itself is an extraordinaryartefact, because, you know, his
family saw it, his wife saw thathis children saw it. And to some
degree, therefore, there's theexpectation, or the
(27:31):
anticipation, at least, that hemight have looked like that,
because we don't really knowwhat he looked like, either. But
one assumes that if, if they sawthat, then it's it's part of,
you know, the memorial to him.
Meg (27:44):
In my head he looks like Joseph Fiennes.
Sara (27:47):
Oh, that would be lovely.
Or what's his name from thehorrible histories version? He's
rather lovely, too, isn't he? Oranybody! (laughing) David
Mitchell, who else? They're alllovely aren't they? (laughing)
What was I saying? Graves! Thebust! Yeah. But the grave
itself. I think there have beendigital scans taken of it and
(28:08):
tried to work out what'sunderneath it. And it turns out
his head was missing. So yeah,no, it does make it very real.
And it means that when people docome along to Stratford from any
part of the world, that they cando that sort of life journey
that they can follow in hisfootsteps that sort of cradle to
grave short journey aroundStratford to kind of feel a bit
(28:31):
closer to the roads he wouldhave walked along in the sights
you would have seen and I knowit obviously looks different
now. But there are elements ofStratford that haven't changed
too, you know, enormously. Forexample, the market cross that
was in the town itself, we justhave in our collection, it's in
(28:53):
our exhibition, you can walkpast it. It's just a lump of
stone and it's enormous, butthat's something that he touched
that he saw probably kicked whenhe was a boy you know, maybe
spat on possibly even urinatedon who knows. But the point is,
it was it was there it is quitearresting as a thought that
there are things that we caninteract with today. And know
(29:14):
that somewhere in time, he wasthere too. It is mind blowing
Meg.
Meg (29:23):
In summary, yes, yes.
Brilliant. Okay, so obviouslylike Shakespeare collections
amazing, historic context,brilliant, but now Anjna we're
going to go down to lowbrowtown.
Sara (29:36):
Sara and Meg's level.
Meg (29:38):
First things first. Snog.
Marry. Avoid (29:38):
Othello, Hamlet, Macbeth.
Anjna (29:44):
Okay, well, I think Othello is a massive avoid
because we know what happens tohis wives. Yeah, I mean, I get I
mean, Hamlet's not... He's notreally like a happy Chappie is
he? So maybe would go snog. Andthen yes Macbeth because to all
intents and purposes he's kindof vaguely happily married. He
(30:07):
knows how to do it. So yeah,maybe that way.
Meg (30:11):
Really good intel.
Anjna (30:12):
You're really like nodding along, Sara so I'm
assuming you've got strongfeelings about this.
Sara (30:16):
Yeah, well, we might have already played this game because
I based mine on sort of eitherwho they'd been played by and my
personal experiences so I saidavoid to Othello because I saw
him at Leeds Playhouse played byLenny Henry, and I will never
forgive him for cheating on DawnFrench. So, there we are. And
then I went extremely low browbecause I went for the Disney
(30:39):
version of Hamlet and Macbeth,Michael Fassbender.
Anjna (30:43):
You cannot argue with that.
Meg (30:44):
I wanted to marry Othello guys. Or maybe I snogged
Othello, I can't remember. Ijust felt like no...
I just was like, he justloves he literally loves
Sara (30:50):
I remember. Yeah.
Desdemona so much it literallydrove him... I mean, easily
manipulated fine.
Anjna (30:58):
There is that he is loves so much.
Meg (31:00):
He loves her so much.
Anjna (31:01):
He loves her so much but ge doesn't have many
conversations with her Meg. So..
Meg (31:05):
I'm not talker. I really am. (laughing)
Sara (31:08):
Such a lie.
Meg (31:10):
Can't shut me up.
Anjna (31:11):
Anybody that Tom Hiddleston's played, frankly, if
we're going by that, then Henrythe fifth? Yes, please.
Sara (31:18):
So if we were all characters, probably you start
with yourself because it'seasiest to do that. But if we
were all characters, who wouldwe be? Who would you put us at?
Meg's decided who she would bequite strongly.
Anjna (31:29):
Oh, goodness. Oh, look at Okay, this is this is this is
interesting. I'm gonna say, youknow what I probably do, I'd
probably go straight for acomedy. That's where I'm
reaching. And I'd probably saylike Rosalind and Celia. Yeah,
because they're both reallypeppy, and they both just get on
with things and have a lot tosay, and are loving life. Both
(31:50):
of them are loving life. And Ithink that's what's so wonderful
about the play of as you likeit, they they just embrace and
they earn the right to survive,you know, to make it to the end,
which is no small achievement ina Shakespeare play if you make
it there. Yeah, I'd go Rosalindand Celia, I think Meg, Celia
and Sara, Rosalind.
Meg (32:09):
I like the fact that we've earned the right to survive.
Anjna (32:12):
Yeah.
Sara (32:13):
Can you let Anjna know ho you decided you would be eg?
Meg (32:18):
Yeah, no, I was just like, Yeah, I'd be Shakespeare. In
like, 400 years, people aregoing to be making podcasts
about me. They're going to bedown in Bracknell at my
birthplace.
Sara (32:29):
And no love lost. You decided I was Iago. So how we
feel about each other, which isexcellent. Who would you be
Anjna?
Anjna (32:39):
Oh, I probably want to be somebody who gets some say over
stuff that goes on. So I quitelike the idea of being like the
Countess in All's Well That EndsWell, or Volumnia in Coriolanus,
who has so much power that herson Coriolanus can kind of like
sack Rome. But the one personhe'll listen to is his mother, I
(33:01):
kind of want that sort of power.
Sara (33:02):
Yeah. And an excellent name.
Anjna (33:04):
Next question is generally based around being in
Stratford upon Avon. And therebeing lots of potential
celebrities walking around, likeactors. So have you ever seen or
met any celebs Anjna?
I have. Yes, I do. And I oftensee people pootling around and
you know, we, some of themactually just turn up in the
(33:24):
gift shop. So I know that JosephFiennes Meg, you're gonna love
this, Joseph Fiennes came to thegift shop. There's a picture of
him holding something I know.
Well, quite. And I missed himthat day. So the disappointment
is seeping out of our pores. Butyes, so he was around. I think,
I think David Hasselhoff turnedup at one point, very briefly,
(33:45):
really, and he I don't think hecame in I think he took a
picture outside the gates andthen it was all over, like,
everything that he was there.
But yeah, there are peoplebecause obviously lots and lots
of wonderful performers play atthe Playhouse so you see them
around town, but they come in tothe Shakespeare centre as well
(34:07):
to come and talk to our studentsand come and do interviews with
us and they're often really justreally really wonderful and have
so many fantastic stories totell. The only time I've like
freaked out and fan girled waswhen Caroline Quentin came in
and it was in the summer so itwas like boiling hot but she
came in and she's just like thisball of energy and she was like
(34:28):
bouncing around and I totallyfan girled and selfied but she
was so kind about it. Althoughshe's like in Bridgerton really
really briefly as a slightly notnice character, but like really
briefly, but we need like aBridgerton style Shakespeare
don't we. Although there isUpstart Crow which I absolutely
love? I think that's hilarious.
Sara (34:50):
That is hilarious. I think you're always going to end up, a
bit like with Bridgerton, with alot of people going well, it's
not very true form and youknow...
Anjna (34:58):
But it's not supposed to be, I think that's it's value. I
think that's where it'sexcitement comes that it's being
irreverent and that there'senough time and distance and
space and understanding of theperiod to know that it's not
accurate, that it's just funstorytelling with great
performers and fun writing andwhy not? There's a space for
that, especially now.
Meg (35:18):
Okay, so Anjna, we've reached the final two questions
slash three questions of ourpod. First one is what's been
your favourite day of work?
Anjna (35:27):
You know, I knew you were going to ask me this question.
And I was, I was seriouslythinking about it this morning.
And I do have an answer for you,but just a kind of Asterix
before is that most days arepretty damn awesome at the
Shakespeare birthplace trust,because every single day is
radically different. And I havedone some crazy things there.
(35:49):
And, you know, a normal daycould involve me carrying fake
severed heads around thebuilding, or life size models of
Shakespeare, which we have. Oryou know, picking cheese out of
the carpet, and all of thosethings are slightly fun. But I'd
say that when I was thinkingabout it this morning, I thought
the most memorable thing was in2014, we were kind of mid
(36:13):
switching around our mainexhibition before you enter
Shakespeare's birthplace. Andwhen we were in the switch
around period in 2014, there wasbasically this kind of open free
for all period, where people inthe building could go into the
exhibition and sort of reclaimanything that was in it, that
they that they wanted, you know,things that were left behind and
(36:36):
not put in the skip. So I wentdown, and it was just, it was
just kind of like variousmembers of the education
department. But I went down intothis like, exhibition, it was
covered in dust. Because all theworkmen were there, they'd pull
everything off the walls, and itwas just, it was dusty, and
dark. And I just gathered upthese enormous portraits of
(36:59):
like, there was, there's one ofLeonardo DiCaprio and one of
David Tennant and just likegathered - they were enormous as
well, like bigger than I was -and just carried them up the
stairs. And I think at the endof the day, I was just covered
in dirt, and ickyness andprobably dust mites. But it was
so much fun just reclaiming allthis random stuff in this
(37:20):
exhibition. And I think we endedup saving a full size replica of
the Philip Sutton portrait ofShakespeare as well. So I think
it's just kind of like momentslike that, where you think we've
saved a piece of something thatwas part of the history of this
organisation and the way wecommunicate with the public and
those things could so easily getlost. So I had a lot of fun
(37:43):
rescuing Leonardo DiCaprio thatday.
Meg (37:47):
Brilliant. Being covered in dust, for any reason might as
well be because you're carryingLeonardo DiCaprio?
Anjna (37:52):
Well I mean, quite.
Sara (37:54):
So we're down to our last question, which is kind of a bit
of a first of all, a bit of asummary like takeaway for our
listeners about what we'vetalked about today. And you can
plug anything, any particularprojects that you may or may not
be starting soon. But yeah,anything that you want to tell
our listeners?
Anjna (38:11):
Oh, yes. So the Shakespeare birthplace trust has
a podcast of its own, calledShakespeare Alive. And it's all
about conversations with peoplethat are working with
Shakespeare today. I'm alwaysreally fascinated by people who
kind of, I guess, like me, havemade a career out of
Shakespeare. He pays the bills,I like to joke, but there are
(38:33):
loads of people for whom that isthe case. So we talk to all
kinds of people, theatre makers,illustrators, reviewers,
artists, who engage withShakespeare as a sort of career
or as a, you know, all consuminghobby. And it's me and my
colleague, Paul Edmondson, we cohost it. We've talked to some
(38:55):
fantastic people. And we arejust coming to the end of our
second series and launchingseries three in April. So for
your listeners, if you'reinterested, please go and check
it out. And then on a personalnote, I've made my own podcast
which launches in March 2021.
And it's called Shakespeare'sPants.
Sara (39:13):
Hooray!
Anjna (39:14):
And it's all about, hurrah, it kind of is about
pants. It's about domestic life,and how it maps over to
Shakespeare in the early modernperiod. So it's all about the
sort of things that we considerbeneath us, I think when you're
when you're in, I guess, inacademic world, so just normal
domestic life, like what was itlike to wash your hair? How did
(39:36):
you go to the toilet? How didyou brush teeth? What was it
like trying to have a bath? Forinstance, did people do it? How
often? Just kind of questionsabout... I mean, life is hard
enough when you've got all thetools at your disposal. So how
did people cope with it backthen? And if that kind of thing
floats your boat, definitely goand check it out.
Sara (39:56):
Obviously, because you said that absolutely beautifully
and so eloquently, we're nowgoing to take it down a notch
and ask what your favourite alltime actual takeaway is.
Anjna (40:06):
Again I knew you were gonna ask me this and like if we
have takeaway which is rare butit's always the same thing if we
do and it is... Thai curry fromone specific restaurant called
the giggling squid which isright in the middle of
Stratford. Meg you look excited!
Meg (40:21):
I love the giggling squid! So much.
Anjna (40:24):
Who doesn't love the giggling squid. It is just...
it's quite literally our go to.
If we have takeaway is comingfrom giggling squid and it
usually is salt and pepper squidto start and red Thai curry with
chicken or their pad thais and,frankly, everything on the menu.
So yeah. it's good.
Meg (40:43):
So good. I totally agree with that. But I also feel
stressed about you getting squidat the giggling squid because
ordering it, it's just like thatsquid is not giggling anymore.
Anjna (40:53):
Well it was at one point.
That's consolation enough.
Meg (40:58):
Yeah, that's such a good one. I love it when people do
ones that I know. Yeah.
Sara (41:04):
I'm just loving... I think we're gonna have to put a list
together because they all havesuch incredible names. I feel
like takeaways and hairdressers,they can get away with all of
the funs.
Anjna (41:14):
Places in Stratford have the advantage of being able to
steal from Shakespeare soeverything's like a pun on
Shakespeare or some kind of, youknow, allusion to his works or
plays. So we've got a food oflove right opposite us on Henley
Street.
Meg (41:27):
Yes. I guess we have, like, Mel B.
Anjna (41:31):
I used to love the Spice Girls. I think the first tape I
ever bought was the Spice Girlstape.
Meg (41:37):
Oh my god, Anjna. Holy moly. This is literally I've
just realised that the first CDthat I ever bought for my
Walkman was Shakespeare's waywith words by one true voice.
I've been embarrassed about thatfor like 20 years. And now I
feel like it's just come fullcircle. And I can tell you that
(41:57):
and it just it's all been worthit.
Anjna (41:59):
No need to be embarrassed. We are shame proof.
Meg (42:04):
Oh I love that so much, Anjna, thank you so much for
coming on the podcast. You justsmashed it. So thank you so
much.
Anjna (42:11):
Thank you for inviting me! This has been such a
pleasure. It really really has.
It's been an honour and your podis so cool. You guys are
amazing. And you should be soproud of what you've achieved.
Meg (42:24):
I feel like Anjna's the modern day Floella Benjamin, but
also at the same time, FloellaBenjamin is a modern day Floella
Benjamin. So I don't want toshade Floella. Anyway, it's
fine. Anjna is lovely. And Ireally enjoyed that. Did you?
Sara (42:40):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I worry that it was definitely one
of those episodes where we justforgot that we were doing a
podcast. I mean, I could listento her talk all day. She has so
much in her head that is justwaiting to be... (laughing) I
don't know why these things keeppopping into my head.
Meg (42:59):
Were you going to say milked?
Sara (43:01):
No, but there is an episode and I don't know whether
it's like The Simpsons orsomething. And it's just it's
just like a serial killer sortof thing. And it's just like
waiting to be bashed out. Idon't want to bash her part of
her brain. Yeah, it was reallylovely speaking to Anjna, and
she has really great Shakespeareknowledge. And I feel very
silly.
Meg (43:21):
You'd hope so, as a literal doctor of Shakespeare. Also, we
had literally so many morequestions than we actually asked
her. I felt like I still wantto, I thought we just scratched
the surface a little bit, I feellike I still wanna go? And like
see the stuff?
Sara (43:35):
Oh, yeah, definitely.
Yeah, I think it in contextwould be absolutely excellent.
Meg (43:39):
What was your best learn?
First learn of the series this,Smez, make it a good one.
Sara (43:45):
I know. I know. I really enjoyed hearing about how
documents are the only thingthat really links us to
Shakespeare and otherwise, wekind of don't know a lot about
him in terms of tangible objectsand stuff that we have. You
know, it's documentation. Andit's stuff like his dad selling
a piece of land that was a yard,but also...
Meg (44:05):
Yeah, to George Badger.
Sara (44:07):
To George Badger. What a great name.
Meg (44:09):
Also do you know what question that we didn't ask,
which I'm annoyed about, but Ireally wanted to know, gotta
call her up again. Basically, Ireally want to know, is there
anyone that's related toShakespeare?
Sara (44:19):
Oh, yeah. Because she did mention that the reason that
their house got pulled down wasbecause his granddaughter passed
away and she didn't have anyheirs. I didn't know whether
that meant that that was the endof the line. We should have
asked she was literally theperfect time.
Meg (44:35):
Go on, ask me mine.
Sara (44:36):
Right. So what was your best learn Meg?
Meg (44:38):
Mine was the witch's mark.
You know when you ask a questionand you're waffling a bit and
you're like god, I literallydont know what I've just said.
And I'm really glad that it kindof paid off and she came out
with that little tidbit. I thinkthat also we should get someone
on the podcast from the Tower ofLondon to talk about that room
because I'm literally obsessedwith it. Anything to do with
like writing on a wall or likeuncovering something in a wall.
(45:00):
I love it. Something aboutwalls. Also, did you notice how
every time I asked a question,she would say, that's a really
good question Meg.
Sara (45:13):
Yeah, it was very cute.
Meg (45:15):
I'm willing to bet that I'm not going to edit any of those
out and that you will have alljust heard those because I'm
going to leave them in forever.
Sara (45:22):
Just be your own benefit.
Yeah yeah yeah.
Meg (45:25):
Okay. Do you want to do the thanks?
Sara (45:28):
Thanks. So big thank you to Tim Bentley for our theme
tune which, even though whenwe're recording this we
obviously don't have it onbecause of the magic of editing.
But we do sing it in betweeneach bit anyway. So thanks for
that. Alex Finney for our coverartwork of which I am now out of
badges for so that's going tohave to happen again.
Meg (45:48):
Out of George Badges?
Sara (45:49):
Literally out of George Badges. I would also like to
thank Meg because she's pulledtogether series three, without
much of my help, so apologiesfor that, and well done.
Well done, well done Guy,thank you for everything. As
Meg (46:00):
And I would like to thank Guy Fieri.
ever, please help us bysubscribing or, and or, leaving
us a review because we likethem.
You can follow us on socialmedia if you want to get in
touch. I'm @MuseumMeg. Sara is@saralmerritt. And you can also
(46:27):
tweet us @LeedsMuseums. That'sme behind the screen there.
That's me. That's me behind thekeyboard. Coming up next time...
I actually don't know what orderI'm going to do these in Smez.
So I think that we should justleave it as a surprise, but know
that it's gonna be good. Andthis series is gonna be very
varied. So I'm excited. Yeah.
Thanks for listening everyone,and we will see you next week.
Actually, we won't see you nextweek because you can't see us.
(46:49):
We will (laughing) we will be inyour ears next week. Right
excellent finish...
Sara (46:58):
Smooth.
Meg (46:59):
Literally forgot what a podcast was. Brilliant.
Also just before you came on, then I realised I know I
probably I probably said thisbefore, but I really realised
today that like this like withthe microphone, Kylie?
Sara (00:12):
Yeah.
Meg (00:12):
Right, hello it's us and welcome to the Museums'n That
podcast where each episode wehave a chinwag and serve you the
steaming hot tea on the thingsthat museum people love the
most. We're your hosts Meg andSara from Leeds Museums and
Galleries, and we get to knowthe people behind the objects by
asking them the questions thatyou really want to know.
(00:47):
It's actually like it's gotan M on it for
Sara (00:51):
something really horrible.
Meg (00:53):
What! What were you going to say
Sara (00:54):
I was going to say moron which is horrible, and not true
Meg (00:58):
You've become so savage between series two and three.
But series three - exciting.
Sara (01:04):
It is very exciting because we were putting off
doing it for a while because wedon't like doing it on here. But
we've got over it. And we'rereally excited for this new
series. And if I say excited onemore time, I'm going to need to
swallow a dictionary.
Meg (01:17):
Mate, I feel like this same for everyone but lockdown three
really did me . My motivationwas just so bad. You know, when
you're just like on email thatyou just need to send and you
just put it off. That was seriesthree. I also went through a
phase where for like, a week,every time I sent a work email,
I would reward myself with anepisode of Diners, Drive-ins and
Dives. It meant that my workingday was literally 12 hours long
(01:41):
because I was just cutting it upwith Guy Fieri going into loads
of restaurants in flavortown.
Sara (01:46):
Yeah, but you have a really good t shirt of Diners
and Drive-ins and Dives.
Meg (01:50):
So basically I had Coronavirus - I ordered myself a
t-shirt and like in the midst ofthe delirium and it's a Diners
Drive-ins and Dives t-shirt butit's like a mash up with
Dungeons and Dragons. It's likea dragon and but the dragon has
Guy Fieri's hair and sunglasses.
Sara (02:08):
Amazing.
Meg (02:10):
That's actually probably my best thing from this week and
any other week. Go on, what'swhat's happened with you?
Sara (02:15):
Really nothing to be honest. Had a birthday, had a
wedding anniversary. Meg boughtme a rose and the best bit about
it is it's called Dame JudiDench off off actual Dame Judi
Dench.
Meg (02:27):
Yeah. Got you Judi.
Sara (02:29):
So she's in a pot, and I've done everything that it
said to do with her. And if shedies, I will give up with
gardening because I don't knowwhat else to do.
Meg (02:37):
Right? So go on, series three.
Sara (02:39):
Oh, yeah. Series three, we decided that we would push
ourselves out of our LeedsMuseums comfort zone.
Meg (02:44):
Can you hear these swallows? By the way? If I do
that?
Sara (02:47):
No.
Meg (02:47):
Can you not? Right. Thought that was loud. Go on. Tell you
what was loud - me justinterrupting you doing that. Go
on.
Sara (02:52):
Yeah, a little bit. I thought you meant actual bird
Swallows then as well. I wasreally impressed. You just meant
swallowing your tea. Yeah, sowe've decided that we will
travel back in time for ourfirst episode. And I was like,
it's gonna be a simpler time.
Like there wasn't the internetand Donald Trump and you had
fewer things to worry about. Butone big thing they did have to
(03:15):
think about at this time was thebubonic plague. AKA black death.
So yeah, bad. And then Ithought, oh, god, it's kind of
similar to now isn't it? Andthat wasn't intentional. But
here we are. So that's about it.
Meg (03:28):
I literally forgot how funny it is when you explain
things it's amazing. Okay, sowe're in the way what century
are we in? 16?
Sara (03:37):
Yeah, yeah. Well, it kind of spans. It spans a couple.
It's Elizabethan Jacobean.
Meg (03:42):
I literally did History at uni. And I still get confused
with centuries. Like, I think Ihave to double check in my head
and go right, it's literallylike one above what it actually
is.
Sara (03:52):
Yeah. Well about this time, when said subject was
born, wasn't it the change ofthe calendar...
Meg (03:59):
Why aren't you telling people what it is? You're
allowed to say, they'relistening.
Sara (04:03):
Oh, yeah. Yeah, Shakespeare. So our guest today
is Anjna Chouhan. She is fromShakespeare's Birthplace Trust,
and she is a senior lecturer.
She is a doctor of Shakespeare.
She absolutely loves it and welove her for it.
Meg (04:19):
Anjna is coming on to tell us all about Shakespeare's
Birthplace Trust and thecollections there and literally
answer all of our silly littlequestions about Shakespeare
Sara (04:30):
I'm so glad we've come into series three with a really
(laughing).
confident, non-imposter syndromeattitude.
Meg (04:36):
Yeah, no, we're amazing.
Really, really good. Also, I betthis episode, you're going to
bring up the fact that thecolour purple was only worn by
Royals, because you've talkedabout that endlessly for the
last like two weeks after youresearched it.
Sara (04:49):
Anjna's gonna put it right and say that's correct. Sara.
You're absolutely right. So.
Meg (04:53):
Brilliant. I hope you do.
Here we go, everyone, it's AnjnaChouhan's episode of Museums
n'That. I feel like I shouldhave said that in Shakespearean?
Forsooth, Anjna Chouhan... Idon't know any other Shakespeare
words. I bet there is a thingonline where you could just
translate it. (typing andlaughing) I just typed - sorry
(laughing) - , I just typedMuseums n'That into the
(05:15):
Shakespeare translator. And it'sMuseums and Yond. Right, here's
Anjna Chouhan's episode ofMuseums n'Yond. Enjoy. Firstly,
thank you so much, Anjna, forcoming on the pod. I'm literally
so excited. I've got so manyquestions to ask you. But first,
(05:37):
please, can you tell our lovelypodcast listeners who you are
and what you do?
Anjna (05:43):
Well, first of all, hello, Meg. Hi, Sara. It's it's
such an honour to be invited. Sothank you. And for your
wonderful listeners. My name isAnjna Chouhan, and I work at the
Shakespeare birthplace trust inStratford upon Avon, where I
have the pleasure of beingSenior Lecturer in Shakespeare
studies. So I have the absoluteaudacity to assume that I know
(06:04):
and can talk about Shakespeareall day.
Meg (06:07):
The first question we have Anjna is, what's your best
Shakespeare play? What's yourbest one?
Anjna (06:11):
(laughing) This is really this. I'm really curious about
what other questions you've gotlined up for me. But people
often ask me that and withoutsounding boring., it really
depends on my mood. But in termsof my favourite or my best, it
kind of rotates between, like abunch of really depressing one.
(06:31):
So it rotates between King Learand Measure for Measure. And
Hamlet, and I absolutely loveTroilus and Cressida, and yeah,
I just I kind of love them all.
Well, there are a few I don'tlike so much.
Meg (06:43):
What's your worst one?
Anjna (06:44):
Ah, this is kind of controversial, but you know,
whatever. I really hate and Imean, hate The Tempest. I think
it's just I think it's such awaste of time. I genuinely don't
think that people would give itthe time of day if if we
suddenly discovered that it wasby Fletcher or Middleton for
example.
Sara (07:04):
The absolute sass.
Meg (07:05):
The Tempest is actually my favourite one.
Anjna (07:07):
So I am sorry. Why did you like it?
Meg (07:12):
I just feel like I like anything involving like the sea.
And also I like the adaptationwhere it's Helen Mirren as
Prospero. I feel like HelenMirren's just sensational.
Anjna (07:24):
Ben Wishaw aswell, because he played Ariel in that
one.
Meg (07:26):
He sure does. This actually brings me on nicely to our next
question, which is, so we knowwhat your best one is. But
what's your best adaptation one?
Anjna (07:35):
Oh my word. I don't really know where to start. One
of the most memorable thingsthat I've ever seen, isn't
Sara (07:38):
That's adorable.
actually Shakespeare. But one ofthe most memorable Shakespeare's
Anjna (07:42):
When we were talking about this, it was all like
that I've seen was GregoryDoran's production of Julius
Caesar. And it was with an allblack company. Absolutely love
that production. It waprofound. The play is astoundin
based around like who thefittest people were in each of
anyway, and it had Ray Fearonin it so I had my mother sat n
xt to me kind of elbowing me ithe ribs going look at that. L
(08:03):
ok at that.
the adaptations like that one ofwhat's it called? The one where
it's like Keanu Reeves.
Oh, Much Ado About Nothing.
Meg (08:18):
Yeah, literally so fit it's crazy.
Sara (08:21):
What an excellent human being. So, this is more of a
serious question. I suppose. Itried to do a bit of research on
you. But then I got reallyintimidated because I did
English at University andShakespeare was hard. But I
would like to know what yourspecial interest is particularly
for Shakespeare.
Anjna (08:40):
Wow, this is really good question. Sara. Thank you. And
I'm sorry that you wereintimidated. That is just not
the intention. I hope I'm likecuddly and friendly and not...
Sara (08:49):
Yeah, absolutely. Not intimidated by you as a person
but by the Shakespeare world.
It's just so massive. And Imean, yeah, to try and hold that
in your brain is incredible.
Anjna (09:00):
I have a go, I attempt.
And I would say that myspecialism has been Shakespeare
in the 19th century, anythingVictorian kind of completely
floats my boat, as well asShakespeare. So I kind of
combine the two, butspecifically, and apologies to
your listeners who might befalling asleep at this point,
but it was specifically aboutthe church and maybe like
(09:20):
anti-Catholic responses toShakespeare or pro-Catholic
responses to Shakespeare and howShakespeare got co-opted by the
Church of England to supportsome of its themes or maybe kind
of non-conformist...
non-conformist celebrations ofthings like tetotalism weirdly,
and and how he got kind ofinvolved in those sorts of
(09:42):
debates and became popular. Butsince I started working at the
trust, which was in 2012, I'vekind of... Well I've branched
out back into the early modernperiod. So I have like a massive
interest in early modern cultureand early modern theatre and
audiences (09:59):
who they were, what they were like, what their
behaviour was like. So yeah, Ikind of just talk about all of
those things.
Meg (10:06):
Anjna, you mentioned that about working with the
Shakespeare birthplace trust. Sohave you always been a lecturer
there?
Anjna (10:14):
This is I mean, the trust is a really complex
organisation. It's wonderful itis it is a museum. But it also
has a collection, and it has aneducation department. And so I
sit within its Education team.
As a lecturer. You're quiteright. So I went in, I was
employed as a full timelecturer. And then in 2018, I
became senior lecturer, which isamazing. I'm still amazed that
they trusted me so much to giveme that title. And I guess I
(10:37):
exist over at the highereducation, secondary school
leisure learner level. So I kindof talk to those audiences.
Meg (10:46):
You mentioned there about the collection, and I really
want to find out more about it.
So what is what is thecollection there like?
Anjna (10:53):
Our- so it is kind of like yours, incredibly broad. It
was, I mean, it was started in1847. The first thing we
collected if you like, wasShakespeare's birthplace. And we
have five historical properties,which are our visitor
attractions, but they are museumobjects. So they constitute, I
guess, the cornerstones of thecollection. But we also have
(11:14):
documents and books, we have alibrary. And we have a separate
museum collection as well, allof which forms one of the
largest Shakespeare collectionsin the world. And it's one of
the most formidable. There arearound about 103 documents that
refer to Shakespeare during hislifetime, that refer to him by
(11:36):
name, 103 of those that exist,and the trust holds 31 of those.
So that's an enormous privilege.
So we've got really cool stufflike that. But we also have
really quirky fun things. Legodonated us a bust of
Shakespeare, which is just oneof the coolest things I've ever
seen. It took them nine days tomake, but it's got like, it's
(11:58):
got over 3000 pieces. It reallyis a wonderful thing. But their
collection is so vast. We'realso a local history archive. So
we often have the reading room,obviously pre-lockdown the
reading room's always full ofpeople who are kind of
researching their familyhistories. But yeah, it's it's a
wonderful archive. And there arestill things that we're
discovering within it. And likesome of the really cool things
(12:20):
that we've we've discovered overthe years, you know that they're
still coming to light. I mean, acouple years ago, I say a couple
I think it was 2017 we had aresearch student that was
working with us. And she found aversion of Herbert Beerbohm
Tree's production of JuliusCaesar, which he performed at
his own theatre, Her Majesty'sTheatre in the late 1890s. And
it was a hand illustratedversion of that text by an
(12:45):
artist called Ethel Waybelling.
And one of our students justkind of found it and we kind of
didn't know it was there. Itwasn't catalogued or anything.
So I mean, when we find thingslike that, it's just it's
really, really exciting. Andit's nice to be a part of that
discussion and the electricityof being in a kind of organic,
ever expanding collection.
Sara (13:08):
That's amazing.
Meg (13:08):
When you were saying about the documents that you've got,
so you said 31 that you've gotat the SBT. Do you call it the
SBT? By the way?
Anjna (13:16):
Yeah, SBT, we shorten it to SBT. Just generally, the
public don't have a clue whatwe're talking about.
Meg (13:22):
So one of our sites is Leeds Discovery Centre. But if
you work there, it's generallyknown as the disco. So it's like
just popping down to the disco.
But I forget that other peopledon't know what that means. But
so the documents that you'vegot, like, what kind of things?
Are they things that shape...
like... yeah, what are they?
Anjna (13:40):
Meg they are amazing. So they're... They range from
things like legal documents thattell us about land and property
that he purchased and owned,there are things that pertain to
his his family members, sothings that refer to his father
in particular, his father waskind of like a bit of a wheeler
dealer chappie. It's such afascinating, you can kind of
(14:03):
imagine, much of what we knowabout text Shakespeare kind of
is speculation, joining the dotsbetween all these documents that
we do have, but I think he candraw a pretty kind of clear
picture of who John Shakespearewas, it's sort of Del Boy of
early modern Stratford, I loveit's a great, it's a great
image. But there are alsodocuments of people referring to
(14:24):
him connecting him as aplaywright, as poet and as a man
from Stratford. And these arekind of the foundational bits of
evidence that we have thatconnect the, the man of
Stratford to the playwright ofLondon, to the actor in London,
to the property holder in inStratford itself. So those kinds
(14:46):
of documents are actuallyincredibly important and
valuable, but they're alsoreally just, they're just really
fun. Like, for example, there'sthere's a really fun document
from 1597 so the same year thatshakespeare bought New Place,
but his father ended up sellinga bit of his land on Henley
(15:06):
Street, which is where thebirthplace is. And I work in the
building next door to that. Andhe ended up selling less than a
yard of land to his neighbourGeorge Badger for some money and
you kind of think how desperatedo you need to be to be selling
less than less than a yard ofland.
Meg (15:25):
What's George badger doing with that land?
Anjna (15:29):
I don't know. 'Cause the document doesn't expound on on
his plans for it. But yeah, it'sjust sort of fun little things
like that. And actually, on thesubject of New Place, we do
actually have a student lookingat archaeological findings and
discoveries and trying toreimagine the interiors of what
New Place would have lookedlike. So there's that kind of
(15:51):
research like that, that goes onusing those documents and using
the kind of evidence that wehave and around the people who
lived in Stratfordcontemporaneous to Shakespeare.
Sara (16:01):
Wouldn't it be exciting if Farrow and Ball did a range and
it was like Shakespeare'sbreath, you know, they have
elephants breath. I mean, whatcolour palette would you go for?
I suppose you know, it's theit's the Golden Age, isn't it?
So there's, there's a lot goingon. Elizabethan, Jacobean, it's
just so much to work with.
Anjna (16:17):
I just imagine brown.
Sara (16:19):
I did think that I was like, come on, I gotta make it
more exciting.
Meg (16:23):
Right. Now we're talking about colours. The last week,
she's mentioned four times thatroyalty is connected to the
colour purple.
Anjna (16:33):
You're right, Sara.
Sara (16:35):
And I thought I might come dressed all in purple. And then
I realised I don't actually haveanything. But yeah, that paupers
weren't allowed to wear purple.
And it was kind of liketreasonous activity. If you have
the audacity to go around in apurple hoodie, obviously, then,
you know, Elizabeth was going tocome along, or James and not be
very happy about that.
Anjna (16:53):
You're quite right. It's an interesting one, because I
think they did politicisearound, you know, colours, but
primarily it was to do with whatyou were able to afford, because
realistically, most people justcouldn't afford any garments
that was dyed the colour purple.
I mean, it was it was anastoundingly expensive thing.
Meg (17:15):
Um, do you have any? Not you personally? Or you might? I
don't know. Do you have any likeof Shakespeare's clothes or like
belongings?
Anjna (17:23):
This is an excellent question, Meg. And it's, I mean,
in short, it's difficult to say,I mean, no. However, we do have
in our collection at the chest,a signet ring, that dates to the
late 1500s. And it has theinitials w s, on them on it,
rather, and it is it's widelyclaimed that it belonged to
(17:45):
William Shakespeare, but I mean,we're quite open about the fact
that we don't really know. Theonly belongings if you like, is
the house on Henley Street.
Because New Place that he boughtin 1597, it was called the Great
House. It was so fancy, it waslike he was totally making a
statement by buying it. But thatdoesn't exist anymore. It was
pulled down. First of all, bythe Clopton family who bought it
(18:07):
after his granddaughter died,she died without any heirs. So
their property passed out of thefamily. So they tore it down and
rebuilt something that was a bitmore to their tastes. And then,
years later, in the late 1700s,Reverend Gaskell purchased what
then was known as New Place, andhe was so... Well, rumour has it
(18:27):
that he was so fed up with allthe people trundling along to
his house and saying, 'can Ilook at Shakespeare's house,
please look at the mulberry treein the garden', he got so fed up
allegedly of that, that he torethe house down completely, so it
doesn't exist anymore. There'sjust the footprint of it. So
there isn't much that you know,physically belong to Him, or
that we can trace back to himpersonally. Although, over the
(18:49):
years, there have been so manyfascinating claims of like, ooh,
this chair is something he wouldhave sat in when he went to
visit that inn over inspitalfield or this was
something that he would havelaid down in or there's a bed
that we have at Anne Hathaway'sthat people often claim belonged
to him that he would have sleptin. But we kind of have no way
(19:10):
of verifying and I think that'spart of the excitement. The
Trust has been going since, youknow, officially since 1891.
They purchased the house in1847. So we've had hundreds of
years of people collecting andtelling fun stories about things
and some of the stuff in ourcollections is is kind of like
openly fake, you know, peoplejust donating things and saying,
(19:33):
Oh, this is a lock ofShakespeare's hair and it just
obviously isn't, but they'requite fun in and of themselves
about the kind of history if youlike of people, inventing
narratives around Shakespeareinventing souvenirs. So in
short, Meg no, but there is afascinating story to be told
about all of these things thatare allegedly connected to him.
Meg (19:57):
For sure. I feel like when I was looking on your website
and looking at the things that,like, were in the collection, a
lot of the stuff was about thetree, and the mulberry tree. And
like things being made out ofthe... like this, this chest is
made out of the mulberry tree.
And I'm like, as I was flickingthrough the pictures, I was
like, omg wow, like that thingis made out of wood that
Shakespeare, like had in hisgarden, like, how is that even a
(20:20):
thing that that makes you feel?
It's crazy. But do you ever getlike, do you ever get people
crying? Or like getting reallyoverwhelmed?
Anjna (20:29):
Do you know we have a wonderful set of guides in the
different properties, theyalways used to tell fantastic
stories of people from allaround the world. Our visitors
come from around about 86 plusdifferent countries in you know,
physically. And some of themtalk about it in terms of making
a pilgrimage like this is alifetime of wanting to come to
(20:53):
Stratford and pay their respectsand show their love and
appreciation, I guess. ForShakespeare's works and his
writing and how that's touchedthem personally. And absolutely,
there are people that that burstinto tears, people have burst
into spontaneous song. Iremember somebody telling me
once that there was a personthat had come from Japan who
just wanted to pray, they juststood still and just offered a
(21:17):
prayer in Shakespeare'sbirthroom. And I think I think
it represents an enormous kindof achievement, if you like for
so many people that they'vetravelled miles 1000s of miles
to come and just take a momentto be in a place that we know
Shakespeare was also in, and aplace that meant something to
(21:38):
him, the house that in which hewas born, the house that his
father lived in and died in. Itreally is such a powerful,
magical place to be.
Sara (21:47):
And I really want to go back now as well, though I have
I haven't been since I was earlyteens out.
Meg (21:53):
Oh, Anjna we're fully coming to see you after this.
Sara (21:56):
Definitely once the world gets back into some sort of
rhythm. We will be on a traindown to Stratford that will be
so exciting.
Anjna (22:03):
Oh I can't wait. I'll show you that lego bust.
Meg (22:06):
When you were saying about things being found out, like
still being found out and likethat student, who found that
book? Are things still being...
because like, if things in yourcollection aren't definitively
like certainly this belonged toShakespeare, is there still also
people that are like searchingfor things that they can
definitively say is? Or like -what are the things that are
(22:26):
like newly being discovered? Andlike, do you ever? Sorry, this
is literally the longestquestion of all time, but do you
ever, like uncover, like, movesomething and then uncover
something in the house? Or like,move something and find
something on the walls oranything like that?
Anjna (22:43):
Okay, this is a brilliant question or several questions.
So I'll address the kind offirst, bit initially, that
people are always looking forthings that have a specific
physical connection toShakespeare or a direct
connection to him. And it'sreally hard to verify those
things, you know, unless thereare documents, which is why
documents are very valued,because you can link them
(23:05):
straight to him. So something asprecious as Shakespeare's will,
is amazing. But looking foractual objects. I imagine there
are people that make a full timecareer out of doing this, but I
can't I can't quite imagine whatit is that they're finding. But
the thing is, that, in reality,Shakespeare died over 400 years
ago, right? So there's 400 yearsof stuff that accumulates not
(23:30):
just from him, but inspired byhim. And that's where the trust
gets, in my opinion, it getsexciting, and it really shines
because it becomes a repositoryfor documenting Shakespeare's
legacy. And so the stuff thatgets added to it is objects,
documents, books, and images aswell. And we hold the Royal
(23:53):
Shakespeare company's collectionto so we keep their prompt book.
So basically, this is continuingthe narrative of Shakespeare
throughout the centuries. Andbeing a Victorianist, it started
in the 19th century. So anythingfrom anything from the 19th
century, to me is just is isastounding. It's mind blowing. I
(24:13):
mean, I remember when I firststarted working at the Trust, I
went up to one of their shelves,and I just pulled something off
the shelf. And it was completelyrandom. It was in a like a long
box. It was a souvenir programmeof Herbert Beerbohm Tree's
production of Richard the thirdfrom 1903. It was enormous, like
really long, in the form of ascroll that I just unravelled.
(24:35):
And it was this beautiful handpainted picture of Tree and his
entire company acting outRichard the second. You know,
it's incredibly elaborate withgold script on it. But that was
just on a shelf in a strong roomthat people had sort of
forgotten about. So you canimagine that stuff like that is
being found all the time andstuff that we forget. We have an
(24:57):
incredible team of archivists,librarians and museum experts,
whose entire job is to take careof that stuff and they do a
superb job of it. They reallyknow what they're doing. And I
just kind of nose around andpoke in and out as and when. But
there absolutely is loads to bediscovered there. But Meg you
(25:18):
asked about the houses. It's soexciting because quite literally
just a handful of years ago,somebody was pootling around, I
think they might have been doingsome dating, some carbon dating
around the house. And they went,they opened one of the doors
that leads down to a miniaturekind of cellar, if you like,
round the back of the house thatleads into the garden. And they
(25:40):
discovered on the wall, a sortof little mark, which we
actually didn't know was therebefore. And it was little, it
turns out, it was a witch'smark, that people used to paint
onto the walls to ward away evilspirits so they don't sour the
ale. Because of course, peoplewere brewing their own ales, and
they would store them, you know,wherever they could store them.
(26:01):
And we know that part ofShakespeare's birthplace was
actually a tavern the Swan andMaidenhead inn for a long time.
And so it's likely that theypainted the witch's mark onto
the walls and stored the alesdown in that cellar and had the
marks to ward away all the evilgoblins and sprites and such, so
(26:22):
that they wouldn't spoil theirprecious alcohol. It's very
exciting.
Sara (26:26):
Okay, this was an interesting one, we had a bit of
a chat about this. So I did abit of I did a bit of looking
around. And obviously, withShakespeare's grave, that's a
really interesting thing initself. Doesn't it feel totally
bonkers that he's just rightthere? And isn't that just mad?
Meg (26:42):
The question here Anjna really is
mind?
Anjna (26:45):
Meg and Sara, it totally blows my mind. I think it does
for most people as well, but itmakes it so much more real. And
as you say, Sara, the graveitself is, you know, it's
wonderfully looked after by theHoly Trinity Church in Stratford
itself, and you can, you can goalong and take a look at it. It
really is... I mean, the churchitself is beautiful. And again,
(27:08):
it's sort of the Victoriansloved it too, you know, and they
did all sorts to it. Andobviously, Shakespeare's there
so they sort of venerated it.
But the bust over the grave, aswell, quite aside from the grave
itself is an extraordinaryartefact, because, you know, his
family saw it, his wife saw thathis children saw it. And to some
degree, therefore, there's theexpectation, or the
(27:31):
anticipation, at least, that hemight have looked like that,
because we don't really knowwhat he looked like, either. But
one assumes that if, if they sawthat, then it's it's part of,
you know, the memorial to him.
Meg (27:44):
In my head he looks like Joseph Fiennes.
Sara (27:47):
Oh, that would be lovely.
Or what's his name from thehorrible histories version? He's
rather lovely, too, isn't he? Oranybody! (laughing) David
Mitchell, who else? They're alllovely aren't they? (laughing)
What was I saying? Graves! Thebust! Yeah. But the grave
itself. I think there have beendigital scans taken of it and
(28:08):
tried to work out what'sunderneath it. And it turns out
his head was missing. So yeah,no, it does make it very real.
And it means that when people docome along to Stratford from any
part of the world, that they cando that sort of life journey
that they can follow in hisfootsteps that sort of cradle to
grave short journey aroundStratford to kind of feel a bit
(28:31):
closer to the roads he wouldhave walked along in the sights
you would have seen and I knowit obviously looks different
now. But there are elements ofStratford that haven't changed
too, you know, enormously. Forexample, the market cross that
was in the town itself, we justhave in our collection, it's in
(28:53):
our exhibition, you can walkpast it. It's just a lump of
stone and it's enormous, butthat's something that he touched
that he saw probably kicked whenhe was a boy you know, maybe
spat on possibly even urinatedon who knows. But the point is,
it was it was there it is quitearresting as a thought that
there are things that we caninteract with today. And know
(29:14):
that somewhere in time, he wasthere too. It is mind blowing
Meg.
Meg (29:23):
In summary, yes, yes.
Brilliant. Okay, so obviouslylike Shakespeare collections
amazing, historic context,brilliant, but now Anjna we're
going to go down to lowbrowtown.
Sara (29:36):
Sara and Meg's level.
Meg (29:38):
First things first. Snog.
Marry. Avoid (29:38):
Othello, Hamlet, Macbeth.
Anjna (29:44):
Okay, well, I think Othello is a massive avoid
because we know what happens tohis wives. Yeah, I mean, I get I
mean, Hamlet's not... He's notreally like a happy Chappie is
he? So maybe would go snog. Andthen yes Macbeth because to all
intents and purposes he's kindof vaguely happily married. He
(30:07):
knows how to do it. So yeah,maybe that way.
Meg (30:11):
Really good intel.
Anjna (30:12):
You're really like nodding along, Sara so I'm
assuming you've got strongfeelings about this.
Sara (30:16):
Yeah, well, we might have already played this game because
I based mine on sort of eitherwho they'd been played by and my
personal experiences so I saidavoid to Othello because I saw
him at Leeds Playhouse played byLenny Henry, and I will never
forgive him for cheating on DawnFrench. So, there we are. And
then I went extremely low browbecause I went for the Disney
(30:39):
version of Hamlet and Macbeth,Michael Fassbender.
Anjna (30:43):
You cannot argue with that.
Meg (30:44):
I wanted to marry Othello guys. Or maybe I snogged
Othello, I can't remember. Ijust felt like no...
I just was like, he justloves he literally loves
Sara (30:50):
I remember. Yeah.
Desdemona so much it literallydrove him... I mean, easily
manipulated fine.
Anjna (30:58):
There is that he is loves so much.
Meg (31:00):
He loves her so much.
Anjna (31:01):
He loves her so much but ge doesn't have many
conversations with her Meg. So..
Meg (31:05):
I'm not talker. I really am. (laughing)
Sara (31:08):
Such a lie.
Meg (31:10):
Can't shut me up.
Anjna (31:11):
Anybody that Tom Hiddleston's played, frankly, if
we're going by that, then Henrythe fifth? Yes, please.
Sara (31:18):
So if we were all characters, probably you start
with yourself because it'seasiest to do that. But if we
were all characters, who wouldwe be? Who would you put us at?
Meg's decided who she would bequite strongly.
Anjna (31:29):
Oh, goodness. Oh, look at Okay, this is this is this is
interesting. I'm gonna say, youknow what I probably do, I'd
probably go straight for acomedy. That's where I'm
reaching. And I'd probably saylike Rosalind and Celia. Yeah,
because they're both reallypeppy, and they both just get on
with things and have a lot tosay, and are loving life. Both
(31:50):
of them are loving life. And Ithink that's what's so wonderful
about the play of as you likeit, they they just embrace and
they earn the right to survive,you know, to make it to the end,
which is no small achievement ina Shakespeare play if you make
it there. Yeah, I'd go Rosalindand Celia, I think Meg, Celia
and Sara, Rosalind.
Meg (32:09):
I like the fact that we've earned the right to survive.
Anjna (32:12):
Yeah.
Sara (32:13):
Can you let Anjna know ho you decided you would be eg?
Meg (32:18):
Yeah, no, I was just like, Yeah, I'd be Shakespeare. In
like, 400 years, people aregoing to be making podcasts
about me. They're going to bedown in Bracknell at my
birthplace.
Sara (32:29):
And no love lost. You decided I was Iago. So how we
feel about each other, which isexcellent. Who would you be
Anjna?
Anjna (32:39):
Oh, I probably want to be somebody who gets some say over
stuff that goes on. So I quitelike the idea of being like the
Countess in All's Well That EndsWell, or Volumnia in Coriolanus,
who has so much power that herson Coriolanus can kind of like
sack Rome. But the one personhe'll listen to is his mother, I
(33:01):
kind of want that sort of power.
Sara (33:02):
Yeah. And an excellent name.
Anjna (33:04):
Next question is generally based around being in
Stratford upon Avon. And therebeing lots of potential
celebrities walking around, likeactors. So have you ever seen or
met any celebs Anjna?
I have. Yes, I do. And I oftensee people pootling around and
you know, we, some of themactually just turn up in the
(33:24):
gift shop. So I know that JosephFiennes Meg, you're gonna love
this, Joseph Fiennes came to thegift shop. There's a picture of
him holding something I know.
Well, quite. And I missed himthat day. So the disappointment
is seeping out of our pores. Butyes, so he was around. I think,
I think David Hasselhoff turnedup at one point, very briefly,
(33:45):
really, and he I don't think hecame in I think he took a
picture outside the gates andthen it was all over, like,
everything that he was there.
But yeah, there are peoplebecause obviously lots and lots
of wonderful performers play atthe Playhouse so you see them
around town, but they come in tothe Shakespeare centre as well
(34:07):
to come and talk to our studentsand come and do interviews with
us and they're often really justreally really wonderful and have
so many fantastic stories totell. The only time I've like
freaked out and fan girled waswhen Caroline Quentin came in
and it was in the summer so itwas like boiling hot but she
came in and she's just like thisball of energy and she was like
(34:28):
bouncing around and I totallyfan girled and selfied but she
was so kind about it. Althoughshe's like in Bridgerton really
really briefly as a slightly notnice character, but like really
briefly, but we need like aBridgerton style Shakespeare
don't we. Although there isUpstart Crow which I absolutely
love? I think that's hilarious.
Sara (34:50):
That is hilarious. I think you're always going to end up, a
bit like with Bridgerton, with alot of people going well, it's
not very true form and youknow...
Anjna (34:58):
But it's not supposed to be, I think that's it's value. I
think that's where it'sexcitement comes that it's being
irreverent and that there'senough time and distance and
space and understanding of theperiod to know that it's not
accurate, that it's just funstorytelling with great
performers and fun writing andwhy not? There's a space for
that, especially now.
Meg (35:18):
Okay, so Anjna, we've reached the final two questions
slash three questions of ourpod. First one is what's been
your favourite day of work?
Anjna (35:27):
You know, I knew you were going to ask me this question.
And I was, I was seriouslythinking about it this morning.
And I do have an answer for you,but just a kind of Asterix
before is that most days arepretty damn awesome at the
Shakespeare birthplace trust,because every single day is
radically different. And I havedone some crazy things there.
(35:49):
And, you know, a normal daycould involve me carrying fake
severed heads around thebuilding, or life size models of
Shakespeare, which we have. Oryou know, picking cheese out of
the carpet, and all of thosethings are slightly fun. But I'd
say that when I was thinkingabout it this morning, I thought
the most memorable thing was in2014, we were kind of mid
(36:13):
switching around our mainexhibition before you enter
Shakespeare's birthplace. Andwhen we were in the switch
around period in 2014, there wasbasically this kind of open free
for all period, where people inthe building could go into the
exhibition and sort of reclaimanything that was in it, that
they that they wanted, you know,things that were left behind and
(36:36):
not put in the skip. So I wentdown, and it was just, it was
just kind of like variousmembers of the education
department. But I went down intothis like, exhibition, it was
covered in dust. Because all theworkmen were there, they'd pull
everything off the walls, and itwas just, it was dusty, and
dark. And I just gathered upthese enormous portraits of
(36:59):
like, there was, there's one ofLeonardo DiCaprio and one of
David Tennant and just likegathered - they were enormous as
well, like bigger than I was -and just carried them up the
stairs. And I think at the endof the day, I was just covered
in dirt, and ickyness andprobably dust mites. But it was
so much fun just reclaiming allthis random stuff in this
(37:20):
exhibition. And I think we endedup saving a full size replica of
the Philip Sutton portrait ofShakespeare as well. So I think
it's just kind of like momentslike that, where you think we've
saved a piece of something thatwas part of the history of this
organisation and the way wecommunicate with the public and
those things could so easily getlost. So I had a lot of fun
(37:43):
rescuing Leonardo DiCaprio thatday.
Meg (37:47):
Brilliant. Being covered in dust, for any reason might as
well be because you're carryingLeonardo DiCaprio?
Anjna (37:52):
Well I mean, quite.
Sara (37:54):
So we're down to our last question, which is kind of a bit
of a first of all, a bit of asummary like takeaway for our
listeners about what we'vetalked about today. And you can
plug anything, any particularprojects that you may or may not
be starting soon. But yeah,anything that you want to tell
our listeners?
Anjna (38:11):
Oh, yes. So the Shakespeare birthplace trust has
a podcast of its own, calledShakespeare Alive. And it's all
about conversations with peoplethat are working with
Shakespeare today. I'm alwaysreally fascinated by people who
kind of, I guess, like me, havemade a career out of
Shakespeare. He pays the bills,I like to joke, but there are
(38:33):
loads of people for whom that isthe case. So we talk to all
kinds of people, theatre makers,illustrators, reviewers,
artists, who engage withShakespeare as a sort of career
or as a, you know, all consuminghobby. And it's me and my
colleague, Paul Edmondson, we cohost it. We've talked to some
(38:55):
fantastic people. And we arejust coming to the end of our
second series and launchingseries three in April. So for
your listeners, if you'reinterested, please go and check
it out. And then on a personalnote, I've made my own podcast
which launches in March 2021.
And it's called Shakespeare'sPants.
Sara (39:13):
Hooray!
Anjna (39:14):
And it's all about, hurrah, it kind of is about
pants. It's about domestic life,and how it maps over to
Shakespeare in the early modernperiod. So it's all about the
sort of things that we considerbeneath us, I think when you're
when you're in, I guess, inacademic world, so just normal
domestic life, like what was itlike to wash your hair? How did
(39:36):
you go to the toilet? How didyou brush teeth? What was it
like trying to have a bath? Forinstance, did people do it? How
often? Just kind of questionsabout... I mean, life is hard
enough when you've got all thetools at your disposal. So how
did people cope with it backthen? And if that kind of thing
floats your boat, definitely goand check it out.
Sara (39:56):
Obviously, because you said that absolutely beautifully
and so eloquently, we're nowgoing to take it down a notch
and ask what your favourite alltime actual takeaway is.
Anjna (40:06):
Again I knew you were gonna ask me this and like if we
have takeaway which is rare butit's always the same thing if we
do and it is... Thai curry fromone specific restaurant called
the giggling squid which isright in the middle of
Stratford. Meg you look excited!
Meg (40:21):
I love the giggling squid! So much.
Anjna (40:24):
Who doesn't love the giggling squid. It is just...
it's quite literally our go to.
If we have takeaway is comingfrom giggling squid and it
usually is salt and pepper squidto start and red Thai curry with
chicken or their pad thais and,frankly, everything on the menu.
So yeah. it's good.
Meg (40:43):
So good. I totally agree with that. But I also feel
stressed about you getting squidat the giggling squid because
ordering it, it's just like thatsquid is not giggling anymore.
Anjna (40:53):
Well it was at one point.
That's consolation enough.
Meg (40:58):
Yeah, that's such a good one. I love it when people do
ones that I know. Yeah.
Sara (41:04):
I'm just loving... I think we're gonna have to put a list
together because they all havesuch incredible names. I feel
like takeaways and hairdressers,they can get away with all of
the funs.
Anjna (41:14):
Places in Stratford have the advantage of being able to
steal from Shakespeare soeverything's like a pun on
Shakespeare or some kind of, youknow, allusion to his works or
plays. So we've got a food oflove right opposite us on Henley
Street.
Meg (41:27):
Yes. I guess we have, like, Mel B.
Anjna (41:31):
I used to love the Spice Girls. I think the first tape I
ever bought was the Spice Girlstape.
Meg (41:37):
Oh my god, Anjna. Holy moly. This is literally I've
just realised that the first CDthat I ever bought for my
Walkman was Shakespeare's waywith words by one true voice.
I've been embarrassed about thatfor like 20 years. And now I
feel like it's just come fullcircle. And I can tell you that
(41:57):
and it just it's all been worthit.
Anjna (41:59):
No need to be embarrassed. We are shame proof.
Meg (42:04):
Oh I love that so much, Anjna, thank you so much for
coming on the podcast. You justsmashed it. So thank you so
much.
Anjna (42:11):
Thank you for inviting me! This has been such a
pleasure. It really really has.
It's been an honour and your podis so cool. You guys are
amazing. And you should be soproud of what you've achieved.
Meg (42:24):
I feel like Anjna's the modern day Floella Benjamin, but
also at the same time, FloellaBenjamin is a modern day Floella
Benjamin. So I don't want toshade Floella. Anyway, it's
fine. Anjna is lovely. And Ireally enjoyed that. Did you?
Sara (42:40):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I worry that it was definitely one
of those episodes where we justforgot that we were doing a
podcast. I mean, I could listento her talk all day. She has so
much in her head that is justwaiting to be... (laughing) I
don't know why these things keeppopping into my head.
Meg (42:59):
Were you going to say milked?
Sara (43:01):
No, but there is an episode and I don't know whether
it's like The Simpsons orsomething. And it's just it's
just like a serial killer sortof thing. And it's just like
waiting to be bashed out. Idon't want to bash her part of
her brain. Yeah, it was reallylovely speaking to Anjna, and
she has really great Shakespeareknowledge. And I feel very
silly.
Meg (43:21):
You'd hope so, as a literal doctor of Shakespeare. Also, we
had literally so many morequestions than we actually asked
her. I felt like I still wantto, I thought we just scratched
the surface a little bit, I feellike I still wanna go? And like
see the stuff?
Sara (43:35):
Oh, yeah, definitely.
Yeah, I think it in contextwould be absolutely excellent.
Meg (43:39):
What was your best learn?
First learn of the series this,Smez, make it a good one.
Sara (43:45):
I know. I know. I really enjoyed hearing about how
documents are the only thingthat really links us to
Shakespeare and otherwise, wekind of don't know a lot about
him in terms of tangible objectsand stuff that we have. You
know, it's documentation. Andit's stuff like his dad selling
a piece of land that was a yard,but also...
Meg (44:05):
Yeah, to George Badger.
Sara (44:07):
To George Badger. What a great name.
Meg (44:09):
Also do you know what question that we didn't ask,
which I'm annoyed about, but Ireally wanted to know, gotta
call her up again. Basically, Ireally want to know, is there
anyone that's related toShakespeare?
Sara (44:19):
Oh, yeah. Because she did mention that the reason that
their house got pulled down wasbecause his granddaughter passed
away and she didn't have anyheirs. I didn't know whether
that meant that that was the endof the line. We should have
asked she was literally theperfect time.
Meg (44:35):
Go on, ask me mine.
Sara (44:36):
Right. So what was your best learn Meg?
Meg (44:38):
Mine was the witch's mark.
You know when you ask a questionand you're waffling a bit and
you're like god, I literallydont know what I've just said.
And I'm really glad that it kindof paid off and she came out
with that little tidbit. I thinkthat also we should get someone
on the podcast from the Tower ofLondon to talk about that room
because I'm literally obsessedwith it. Anything to do with
like writing on a wall or likeuncovering something in a wall.
(45:00):
I love it. Something aboutwalls. Also, did you notice how
every time I asked a question,she would say, that's a really
good question Meg.
Sara (45:13):
Yeah, it was very cute.
Meg (45:15):
I'm willing to bet that I'm not going to edit any of those
out and that you will have alljust heard those because I'm
going to leave them in forever.
Sara (45:22):
Just be your own benefit.
Yeah yeah yeah.
Meg (45:25):
Okay. Do you want to do the thanks?
Sara (45:28):
Thanks. So big thank you to Tim Bentley for our theme
tune which, even though whenwe're recording this we
obviously don't have it onbecause of the magic of editing.
But we do sing it in betweeneach bit anyway. So thanks for
that. Alex Finney for our coverartwork of which I am now out of
badges for so that's going tohave to happen again.
Meg (45:48):
Out of George Badges?
Sara (45:49):
Literally out of George Badges. I would also like to
thank Meg because she's pulledtogether series three, without
much of my help, so apologiesfor that, and well done.
Well done, well done Guy,thank you for everything. As
Meg (46:00):
And I would like to thank Guy Fieri.
ever, please help us bysubscribing or, and or, leaving
us a review because we likethem.
You can follow us on socialmedia if you want to get in
touch. I'm @MuseumMeg. Sara is@saralmerritt. And you can also
(46:27):
tweet us @LeedsMuseums. That'sme behind the screen there.
That's me. That's me behind thekeyboard. Coming up next time...
I actually don't know what orderI'm going to do these in Smez.
So I think that we should justleave it as a surprise, but know
that it's gonna be good. Andthis series is gonna be very
varied. So I'm excited. Yeah.
Thanks for listening everyone,and we will see you next week.
Actually, we won't see you nextweek because you can't see us.
(46:49):
We will (laughing) we will be inyour ears next week. Right
excellent finish...
Sara (46:58):
Smooth.
Meg (46:59):
Literally forgot what a podcast was. Brilliant.
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