June 4, 2021 • 50 mins
In this uncharacteristically relevant episode, Meg and Sara talk to lovely Owen Gower from Dr. Jenner's House, off of the birthplace of vaccinations.
We find out about Blossom the cow and her 20 horns, ghost stories from inside the house and the naughty vicar's wife who stole a plant from the Pope. Oh, and all about vaccinations (lancets, people!), Edward Jenner and what it's like to work at the house of one of history's good guys.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sara (00:00):
Well what I like about genetics is that like you don't
(00:02):
know what you've got? Really.
It's just a mixed bag isn't it.
Meg (00:06):
What, so likeyou don't know which bits of which parent
you're gonna get.
Sara (00:08):
Yeah, and also how you your genetics then go, do you
know what I'm gonna do this bitdifferently.
Meg (00:15):
Hello it's us and welcome to the Museums n'That podcast
where each episode we have achingwag and serve you the
steaming hot tea on the thingsthat museum people love the
most. We're your hosts Meg andSara from Leeds Museums and
Galleries, and we get to knowthe people behind the objects by
asking them the questions thatyou really want to know.
(00:46):
Also, I feel like wheneverI say that I go 'podcast'. Do
you know what I mean?
Sara (00:51):
Yeah, yeah, we should...
We should get someone with areally strong Leeds accent to do
it actually.
Meg (00:56):
Good idea Sara.
Sara (00:58):
Thank you. All right. I'm gonna go first. Hi, how are you
tell me one thing for the week,because you always go first.
Meg (01:02):
This is a turn out for the books isn't it.
Sara (01:04):
Just because I'm ready this week and I'm excited about
it.
Meg (01:08):
Brilliant, yeah I know I just feel like really
disorganised and dishevelled.
And yeah, I've mainly just beenexisting. The only the one thing
that has been really good, whichis a general recommendation for
you and any listeners, Ilistened to the Barack Obama and
Bruce Springsteen podcast. Haveyou heard about this? It's
called renegades in the USA,which I literally love. And it's
just Barack Obama and BruceSpringsteen, just having a
(01:30):
little chat in in Bruce's house.
And it's insane. It's so lovely.
And also both of them have themost ridiculous voices like I
was listening to it and laughingthinking how how like, shrill
and abrasive our voices arecompared to them. But yeah,
there was a bit that made megenuinely emotional. Got a bit
teary. And go on. How are youtell me one good thing.
Sara (01:55):
Yeah. So my one thing that I did this week, which was
really exciting was I bought anart print. But wait for it. It's
not off of an artist. It's offof a comedian. It's a print from
Joe Lycett and it's of bluehyacinths and it's very good.
I'm very excited to get itbecause I think he's brilliant
and hilarious. And if you don'tlike his humour, then you won't
(02:17):
you won't, absolutely won't getthe artwork. But I think it's
brilliant.
Meg (02:22):
That's really cute. You know how everyone was like
buying loads of stuff inlockdown. I felt like I like
buying art and stuff in my housebecause I know that I'm like,
gonna fit into it when we're outof lockdown. Whenever I buy
clothes, I'm like, Am I gonna?
Is it?
Sara (02:37):
Yeah. Also that's a good egg amount behind you there. I'm
jealous. I don't have any eggsin stock.
Meg (02:44):
You mean 12 large?
Sara (02:46):
Yeah. 12 large. It's the only amount you should ever get.
Meg (02:50):
Yeah, normally... I've been dipping in to Burford browns.
Sara (02:56):
Oh, very posh.
Meg (02:57):
Really good. Anyway, we're literally descending into egg
chat. We need to get this done.
Okay, go on. You say because youknow what, and I'm gonna,
there's a strong chance I'mgoing to call you out on this
when we're talking to him.
You've gone deep. You've gonedeep in the research for this
one. I'm so embarrassed.
Sara (03:14):
No, not really. I just like to be you know, aware.
Meg (03:18):
Right go on, tell us.
Sara (03:20):
Okay, so today we have Owen Gower. He is the museum
manager at Dr. Jenner's House,which, in my head, I keep
thinking of Jeckyll and Hyde.
Not the same.
Meg (03:31):
That's so funny because in my head, I keep thinking of
Kylie Jenner.
Sara (03:34):
Brilliant. So total opposite ends of the spectrum.
Both of which fictionalcharacters, maybe maybe not. Dr.
Jenner's House, down off ofGloucester. Very nice part of
the world. So he's the vaccinepioneer really, isn't he Edward
Jenner? We're going to talkabout the history of smallpox
and vaccination, which is verytopical for us.
Meg (03:54):
Also you literally didn't drop in, literally, five minutes
before we started recording,Sara was like, ooh, the origins
of Owen's name.
Sara (04:05):
It was just a little side note that I happened to read
about this morning. We don'tneed to know, it's boring.
Meg (04:12):
But yeah, so we're hopefully gonna find out some
more stuff about what the kindof things in the collection the
history of Edward Jenner and,and neither of us have ever met
Owen before. Right?
Sara (04:24):
No, no, no. Just, you know, a bit of casual social
media stalking, as you do.
Meg (04:29):
Absolutely. I don't think I've met him but I've seen him.
I mean, that's weird isn't itbut like...
Sara (04:39):
Well you are know for being a massive creep.
Meg (04:45):
Brilliant, thank you.
That's literally not what I wantto be known as. I think I saw
him do a talk once and Iremember sitting there thinking,
Hmm, this seems like a nice manwith interesting things to say.
And this was literally likethree years ago.
Sara (04:59):
Such insight, thank you.
Meg (05:05):
To be fair Owen has told me that he's a listener so he knows
what he's in for. Right? OwenGower's episode of Museums
n'That everyone, enjoy. Oh, thatwas a weird intonation wasn't
it?
Enjoy. Enjoy. No...
Sara (05:21):
Enjoy.
Meg (05:22):
Enjoy. I cannot say it without sounding sarcastic.
Enjoy.
That'll do. Listen to it, don't,I don't care. Oh god.
Owen (05:34):
Morning!
Meg (05:35):
Owen! Hello! How are you?
Owen (05:39):
Yeah I'm more I think I'm bit flustered my my blanket fort
just fell down. So sorry I was abit lare, I was just rebuilding
it.
Meg (05:46):
Honestly don't worry that is the best excuse anyone's ever
had. I was kind of hoping thatyou'd come in though and be like
shrouded in like a littleblanket.
Owen (05:54):
Yeah, I did try that. But I did a recording a couple of
months ago with radio four. Andthey had a proper actor in to
read a voice part. And he wasliterally he was like, right,
I'm going under the blanket nowand disappeared under this
blanket and then came back out.
So I kind of thought that looksa bit weird.
Meg (06:13):
Brilliant. Also, I really wish that I was upstairs in my
house because Sara, don't youthink that my upstairs in my
house looks exactly the same asOwens?
Sara (06:21):
It is very, very similar.
Meg (06:23):
Owen later, I'll take a picture of it for you. My setup
is weirdly the exact same asyours. Like it looks like you're
in my house.
Sara (06:30):
Also. Is that a washing thing in the back?
Owen (06:36):
Yes, that's the blanket fort.
Sara (06:37):
Brilliant.
Owen (06:39):
So the first question as always, is who the flip are you?
I'm Owen Gower. I'm the museummanager at Dr. Jenner's house in
Berkeley in Gloucestershire andwe're on the banks of the river
seven, sort of halfway betweenBristol and Gloucester.
Meg (06:53):
This is literally the worst question I'm ever going to ask,
I don't know why it's poppedinto my head. But what's better?
Bristol or Gloucester?
Owen (06:59):
Ooh. I've got a lot of love for Gloucester. Gloucester
I think is the one that peoplepeople - ooh, I'm going to get
myself in trouble - but I thinka lot of people have a really
down view of Gloucester, butit's just got such fantastic
history. It's got all theselittle narrow alleys and kind of
weird things, you can just stepoff of the main road in
Gloucester and find yourself upagainst this, looking up at
(07:20):
this, this 17th century house,this timber framed house that is
next to a branch of McDonald's,and no one ever sees it because
it's just this little alleywaythat doesn't go anywhere. It's
got one of the best cathedralsin the country in the world
perhaps. It's just got such arich history.
Meg (07:37):
And you know, good to know there's a McDonald's there.
Okay, so the natural nextquestion then is who the flip is
Dr. Jenner?
Owen (07:47):
Well, that's a that's a really good question. Because I
mean, I've been working at Dr.
Jenner's House for seven yearsnow. And when I started, and
this is the big embarrassment,is that I didn't really know who
Dr. Jenner was when I started.
And he's got one of these namesthat I think is associated with
science with discovery and ofcourse with vaccination now, but
so many people don't really knowmuch about him at all other than
(08:09):
maybe a kind of story thatthey've been told at school
about cows, dairy maids, andsmallpox. I mean, he's best
known now as the pioneer ofvaccination. He was the first
person in the world to do what Ithink we think of now as
clinical trials into the use ofcow pox to protect against
smallpox. And in doing so hereally set in place, everything
(08:30):
that's that's going on in theworld today. 200 years of
vaccine development. It'ssomething like 26 different
diseases we can now protectagainst through vaccination. And
it saves between two and 3million lives every year and
smallpox is eradicated. AndJenner plays a really crucial
part in that, because he was theperson who not just tried it
(08:50):
out, but also told everyone howto do it and started to try and
teach people to do their ownvaccination and really
established it as the amazingpreventative tool that it is
today.
Sara (09:01):
If he was around today, do you think he would be... he'd be
a good lad to have around? Doyou think you'd be like best
mates with him?
Owen (09:09):
Yeah, I think so. I mean, Jenner is one of my I think one
of my personal heroes. I mean, Iknow that I'm paid to say that,
but also, it really is true. Imean, the more I learn about
Jenner, the more I think he musthave been just such a such a
character because it wasn't justthat he had this idea, he did a
bizarre experiment and justchanced it. It really was the
(09:32):
culmination of about 40 years ofthinking of work of talking to
people collecting evidence,before he started this this
process and actually tried itout really thoroughly and
scientifically. He made notes,he had his experiment, he had
his test. So on the 14th of May1796, he deliberately infected
(09:56):
an eight year old boy calledJames Phipps with cow pox. And
he then waited for a little bit,James developed a kind of minor
fever probably was a little bitsore, a little bit tender, but
made a quick recovery. And thenJenner tested it - he did what
we probably think of as achallenge trial today. He tried
to infect Phipps with smallpox.
And nothing happened, Phippsdidn't contract smallpox, but
(10:19):
then Jenner tried it again. Andhe tried it again. And he
actually kept trying it forquite a few years afterwards.
And we get the word vaccinationfrom the Latin vaca, meaning
cow. And he then devoted therest of his life to telling
people how to how to do it. Andhe didn't try and profit from
it, either. He set up a smallhut in his garden to vaccinate
(10:39):
people. And he was very willingto just share his knowledge with
with anyone I think, really,he's one of history's really
good, guys.
Meg (10:50):
I mean, fair play. It's a pretty, pretty nice thing to do,
isn't it? And my question when Iwas reading this, this story of
James Phipps and is it SaraNelms the milkmaid. So he took
the cow pox, or the smallpoxfrom a blister on her hand?
Owen (11:08):
Yeah, I mean, so I mean, I don't know how, how gory your
podcast viewers want me to go...
Meg (11:13):
Oh, God, go, go, go. Go gory.
Owen (11:16):
So smallpox is called smallpox, because that's a
description of the symptoms,people will get these
characteristic pustulesgenerally on their their hands,
their arms, their face. Butreally, it's the virus is
working its way around the wholebody. Prevention was better than
cure. And so in parts of Turkey,parts of the Middle East, China,
(11:39):
India, Africa, and then thisbizarre kind of little group of
people in South Wales, as well,roughly about the same time
start performing this practicethat became known as inoculation
or varielation. And that'sdeliberate infection with
smallpox with the aim ofprovoking an immune response.
They didn't know how it worked.
They didn't really know anythingabout it. But they did know that
(12:00):
if you had smallpox once, youwouldn't get it again. So this
this kind of thing was practisedin various parts of the world,
but was eventually brought backto Western medicine in 1721 by
Lady Mary Wortley Montagu inBritain. She had been the wife
to the British ambassador toTurkey. And she had witnessed it
being practised there and usedher influence in society when
(12:20):
she came back to England to tryand encourage people to receive
this, this inoculation, thisvarielation. So that's 1721.
About the same time in theStates, an enslaved man called
an Onesimis, who had beenforcibly taken from we think
West Africa, and sold to aPuritan preacher in Boston, told
his owner about this practicethat he had experienced of being
(12:45):
deliberately infected withsmallpox. So this kind of
existed for about 60, 70 yearsprior to Jenner in western
medicine. Sort of at the startof Jenner's career, he starts
hearing about people in thelocal area, using cow pox to
protect themselves againstsmallpox. And cow pox is I think
it was known as a disease ofmilkmaids or farmers, you would
(13:07):
get it through little cuts onyour hands. If you were milking,
if you're coming into closecontact with cows, and then you
would have a really big pustuleform up on the site of the
infection. And Jenner took thisidea, okay, if we can
deliberately infect people withsmallpox, why don't we try and
deliberately infect people withcow pox to see if we can if we
can provide that protectionagainst smallpox? And so yeah,
(13:31):
he waited until someone came upto him and said, I've got cow
pox and that was a milkmaidcalled Sarah Nelms, and the
legend is that she picked upthis infection from her cow who
was called Blossom. We've got apainting of Blossom at the
museum. Blossom has somethinglike 20 different cow horns
scattered in medical museumcollections around the country.
(13:54):
Her hide is in St. George'sHospital in London. So Sarah
Nelms had the cow pox blister.
Jenner took a lancet it to it,he extracted some fluid from
that blister, and then hescratched it into the upper arm
of James Phipps. So then Phippswould have contracted the
(14:15):
disease, he would have had alocalised infection, the blister
would have formed there. AndJenner kind of actually went to
steps to look at every stage ofthis process. He drew pictures,
he described it, he tried totell people exactly what does a
cowpox blister look like? Whatshould it look like? How do we
know that it's, it's not becomeit's not the secondary
(14:35):
infection. How do we know we'venot accidentally given someone
smallpox or something completelydifferent. And then the second
stage was to go back andeffectively to inoculate Phipps.
And indeed we ask loads ofquestions about what's the
ethics of infecting an eightyear old boy, Jenner, I think
knew that you had to find asubject who had never had
smallpox and had never had cowpox and Phipps was the son of
(14:58):
his gardener. So they knew eachother fairly well. And I think
Jenner could have been fairlycertain that he would have been
a good, good subject.
Sara (15:06):
It's really interesting because not wanting to go into
too much detail about it as anon expert, but you know...
Meg (15:14):
Here she goes...
Sara (15:15):
Here I go - vaccinations, now one of our questions, I
mean, we could probably guessthe answer to this, but in terms
of like, apprehensions aroundvaccinations, certainly, like
from a museum perspective, butmaybe generally, you spent a lot
of this year talking about that.
And do you think that that willbe a kind of a theme going
forwards as to how the museumwill look at I suppose?
Meg (15:39):
I did think when I got in touch with you,Owen, to ask you
to come on, I though ugh he'sgoing to be getting booked up...
Owen (15:44):
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. Everyone wants to
talk about anti vaccination. Ithink I've, I've disappointed a
few people so far in the pastyear, because actually, we try
and we try and look at it in thesame way that Jenner did.
Because Jenner was facing thesame kind of arguments, some of
the arguments that you see beingreplayed on the internet now are
(16:04):
exactly the same arguments thatpeople were using to attack
vaccination back in the 1790s.
In the early 1800s. I mean, Ithink last year, there was a
campaign in some parts, somecountries in the world that was
presenting this idea that ifyou've got the Oxford
AstraZeneca vaccine, that youwould turn into a chimpanzee,
because the viral vector is froma chimp adenovirus. That's
(16:28):
completely rubbish. But alsoback in Jenner's time, people
thought, potentially, that theymight become more bovine in
characteristics, they mightstart developing a liking for
eating grass. There's even thesecartoons of people growing horns
or developing udders and thingslike that. But I think also,
it's really important to saythat we focus a lot on anti
(16:49):
vaccination, on the the antivaxxers. But the actual focus, I
think, that we want to have, andthe focus that Jenner I think
would have wanted to have is onthe people who are perhaps just
a little bit unsure. They wantto make an informed choice. And
I think we need to give peoplethe the time and the space to be
able to have thoseconversations, but be able to
(17:13):
have them with people who knowthe answers. Edward Jenner
vaccinated people from Berkeleyand from the surrounding area
free of charge. And one accountof him during that vaccination
is that he perfectly understandsthe fears and concerns of all
those who come to to bevaccinated. Yeah, I mean, a lot
of people say to me, oh, EdwardJenner, no, it must have been,
(17:34):
he must be really, reallyannoyed. He'd be turning in his
grave about anti vaccinationactivists. And I think I just
have to say, Well, I think hewould have expected it. But I
think also, he'd be really keento change the conversation away
from Pro vaccination versus antivaccination to accepting that
yeah, people people have someconcerns. That's only right. It
(17:58):
doesn't mean those concerns arenecessarily justified. But it
does mean that we should be ableto have those conversations and
give people space so that theyfeel comfortable with it, and
they can make that informeddecision about whether they want
to be vaccinated or not.
Meg (18:16):
Owen when you go to bed at night, do you dream about cows
and smallpox and vaccinations?
Owen (18:23):
Yeah, I mean, I, I'm a bit... I can actually see the
museum out my window sill. Soalthough I'm working from home,
I can still see out of thewindow, which is a bit it's a
bit off putting sometimes I kindof, yeah, I do look out and
think oh, I hope it's all okayover there. Yeah, it's quite
difficult to get away from. Andeven things like, bit behind on
(18:47):
on things like watching TheGreat because I know that we're
about to get to the smallpoxepisode. And I'm not sure I can
quite bear to have an evening ofwatching more more smallpox
things, particularly at themoment. But yeah, I haven't got
to the stage of having havingsmallpox dreams yet. I'm still
mostly dreaming about having myhead stuck in the computer,
which is a whole differentstory.
Meg (19:08):
Been there. Yeah, I feel like we've been recording for
what, like 29 minutes and youmore than any other guest I feel
like you are literally amachine. And I mean that as a
biggest compliment ever. I feellike I've just absorbed so much
information. Yeah.
Sara (19:22):
It's incredible.
Owen (19:24):
I've had practices this past year talking about?
Sara (19:26):
Yeah, yeah.
Megan Jones (19:28):
Just I know. You mentioned the museum then, in
fact, you can see out of yourwindow and a big part of what I
wanted to talk to you abouttoday was the museum and your
experiences working there. Sojust as a historic House Museum,
how does that work? Like are youscared to touch things? Like
where's your desk? What room'syour desk in, those kinds of
things?
Owen (19:49):
Am I scared to touch things? Yes. The challenge for
us is kind of that the buildingis part of the collection, as
well. So you get reallyprotective about the building.
And yeah, that same sort offeeling when you look at an
object and think, oh, you knowthere's a bit falling off of
that or something. You get thesame feeling with the building,
(20:10):
is something falling off of thebuilding. My desk is is not very
glamorous. So the office is inan outbuilding. I stare at a
wall day, and it doesn't feelhistoric at all. And we're
separate to the main house. Soactually going into the main
house, yeah, being in the mainhouse is a real joy. I still get
(20:30):
quite a thrill going in there.
And I think probably more sothis year, because it's been so
rare to go in. And actuallyevery time I go into museum and
throw open the shutters and justtry and make it feel a bit more
lifted. It's really just nice. Iget that little feeling of
something happened here. We'rewalking around here we're
touching the bannister thatJenner might have touched. We're
(20:51):
in the study that Jenner didmost of his work in perhaps it
was here that he wrote his 1798book telling the world how to
vaccinate. It's just such a sucha special place. It is also a
complete pain because you add azero on to the cost of
everything with a building likeDr. Jenner's House.
Meg (21:10):
What's your favourite room?
Or like favourite quirk aboutthe house?
Owen (21:15):
I'm gonna I'm gonna answer a different question and be
annoying. My least favouritething about the house is that
it's completely symmetricalexcept for one window from and I
think I went four years withoutnoticing it. And ever since I've
seen that it's just every time Igo in, it really, really really
frustrates me. I don't know why.
Because I just don't know why ithappened.
Sara (21:38):
Well, I imagine it's a bit like Tom Cruise's middle tooth.
Once you see it, you can't unseeit.
Meg (21:44):
Exactly the same thing. And I wonder if I wonder if Jenner
was also annoyed by him.
Owen (21:49):
I think he did get quite easily annoyed by little
slightly petty things. So weknow that he got into a few rows
with his gardener because hisgardener wasn't looking after
his vegetables in the way thatJenner had this plan for how you
should look after vegetables. Heprobably had given it a lot of
scientific thought. And then Ithink his Gardner came along and
(22:10):
sort of I've been doing thisthis way for however many years.
So it's...
Meg (22:13):
The logical thing in my head that you're about to say
them was he got into an argumentwith this gardener because he
was injecting his son.
Owen (22:19):
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, again, it's not recorded what the
gardener thought about that. AndI think Janner could have cut
him a bit of slack really afterafter all that, rather than just
going straight into a rant aboutbeetroot.
Sara (22:30):
Don't bite the hand that literally feeds.
Meg (22:33):
With the garden. One thing that always... That I always
think about is like, are all theplants the same? Like does the
historic houseness of Dr.
Jenner's house extend to thegarden?
Owen (22:45):
So there's there's one plant that's really really
special and that is a constantsource of anxiety, which is a
grape vine that was planted byEdward Jenner in 1816. The story
is that the same vine we have inthe garden now is that vine that
was planted by Jenner, and Idon't want to be the person who
(23:05):
oversaw the death of EdwardJenner's grape vine I can't
imagine that being that being agood thing for the CV. The rest
of it, Jenner made notes aboutsome of the things he had,
particularly the weird andwonderful things he had, a
transparent apple and he hadwhite strawberries, and things
like that. But the house waslived in after Jenner died. So
(23:26):
Jenner died in 1823. His sonlived in it for a few years
after that. Then the propertywas rented out then it became a
Vicarage. At some point, thevicar put in a tennis court on
the lawn, and obviously plantedtheir own flowers. We get
cylamen growing around the baseof one of the trees and the
story there is that the wife ofone of the vicars went to the
(23:51):
Vatican. And there in the Pope'sprivate garden, she saw some
cylamen and thought ooh, theseare nice. So she carefully
pulled one out of the ground andhid it in her umbrella and took
it all the way back from Italyand planted it in Berkeley. And
supposedly they still grow theretoday. So I think they're the
two plants, the vine and theCyclamen that we're really quite
(24:11):
precious about.
Meg (24:12):
When you said grapevine, then all I can think of in my
head was I really hope thatyou're going to make some wine.
Owen (24:19):
Yeah, we so they're dessert grapes. I'm not a fan of
grapes. I don't really likethem. They're quite sharp, and
they've got loads of seeds.
Meg (24:27):
I don't like grapes, then everyone's always like why don't
you like grapes...
Sara (24:30):
Unless they're wine...
Meg (24:30):
Unless they're liquidised grapes. But they just remind me
of being ill.
Owen (24:34):
Yeah. And we ended up with so many bunches of grapes that
we're literally just giving awayto neighbours. It's a bit like
the whole cause yet thing. Lastyear, two years ago, we've got a
local brewery, and they justtook a whole crop of grapes and
steeped them in beer for a yearand then left it to ferment for
(24:55):
a bit longer and bottled it up.
And that's the closest we've gotto making wine so far is grape
beer.
Sara (25:03):
What's the brewery?
Owen (25:04):
It's called Mills brewery.
Sara (25:07):
Okay.
Meg (25:07):
Sara's a beer head.
Sara (25:09):
Well that's really interesting though.
Meg (25:11):
So in terms of the house, I know you mentioned the painting
of Blossom. What is thecollection like and are you
still discovering things aswell?
Owen (25:19):
The history of the collection is a bit of a
challenge for us because a lotof the the main prominent Jenner
objects, so things like Jenner'spapers, Jenner's lancets were
collected and put into museumcollections long before we
started. But when we wereestablished, there were a few
family items that hadn't made itinto Wellcome's collection. So
(25:41):
things like the Jenner familychristening gown, with bits and
pieces like teapots, and copiesof publications that have been
passed down the family, ended upin our collection. So in terms
of what visitors see, when theycome around the museum, they
start off looking at some of theitems that are just the Jenner
family items, like thechristening gown, which is just
(26:02):
such a wonderful thing to have.
And then we've got items thatwere owned by Jenner used by
Jenner (26:06):
prescriptions that he had written out, we've got
lancets that were used forvaccination and for other
surgical things.
Meg (26:16):
What sorry, what is a lancet?
Owen (26:18):
A lancet - it is literally, it's a small Lance.
It is a tiny surgical blade. Soit's a steel, sharp, pointy
thing. They weren't usingneedles, they were using just
basically literally taking thematerial on the tip of this tiny
blade and then scratching itinto the skin.
Sara (26:35):
Interesting.
Meg (26:36):
Just before we get on to our like questions that we
normally ask people everyepisode, I just have one last
question for you. Owen which ismaybe annoying... because I know
some people don't like to talkabout this. But every time I go
into a historic house, and I'mgetting a tour or anything, I'm
obviously interested in thehistory of the house, objects,
brilliant. But what I reallywant to know are ghost stories.
(26:56):
Are there any ghost stories fromDr. Jenner's House?
Owen (26:58):
Oh, it's I'm going to get in a lot of trouble for saying
this because we're sort of...
we're a science museum. But ofcourse they're stories, aren't
they? And they're kind of thingsthat people have told throughout
the centuries. And they shedsuch an interesting light on who
lived in the house. And I thinkthat's what I find I really like
about the ghost storiesassociated with Dr. Jenner's
House. So the main one is thefew years ago, a BBC
(27:20):
photographer took some timelapsephotos in the in the attic,
we've got an attic space that'snot really been touched that
much. It's probably it's the onearea of the museum that hasn't
been restored, hasn't been doneup for visitor access. So you
access it through these narrowrickety stairs. And it's...
yeah, it's a really atmosphericand it's quite a it's quite
(27:42):
creepy place. I don't likespending that much time up
there. But this photographertook this image that had a shape
disturbance on it. And the storythat's kind of being formed
around that was based on, Ithink, based on other
experiences that people have hadin the attic. So this idea that
this was the tutor who waslooking after Edward Jenner's
(28:06):
son. Edward Jenner's son, eldestson, had learning difficulties
from birth and a tutor wasemployed, a man named John
Dawes-Wargen to come and livewith the family and to teach
Edward's son Edward and JohnDawes-Wargen unbeknown to anyone
was carrying tuberculosis whenhe came into the house. And so
(28:27):
very sadly, within just a coupleof months he had died. And then
before not too long, Catherine,who was Edward Jenner's wife,
had also succumbed totuberculosis. And then Edward,
Edward Jenner's eldest son hadalso died of tuberculosis. And
it's one of the huge tragediesin Jenner's life and I think it
(28:48):
caused him to withdraw fromsociety. It led to him spending
most of his time in in Berkeleyfrom that point onwards and left
him with with a sense of sadnessthat really filled him for the
rest of his life. So the storyis that this ghost in the attic
is perhaps the spirit of JohnDawes-Wargen who is just really
unhappy with the fact that hebrought tuberculosis into the
(29:13):
house and it ultimatelycontributed to the the early
deaths of both Edward's sonEdward and Edwards wife,
Catherine. And then we also havea dog and the dog is is an
interesting one. So when themuseum first opened to the
public, the whole upstairs of itwas actually used as
accommodation for visitingmedics and other academic people
who were coming to live inEdward Jenner's house for a
(29:37):
couple of days. Yeah, come comevisit the museum stay in the
hotel upstairs. It's quite aquite good business model.
Really. We don't do it now.
Perhaps because of this. So oneperson staying recalled that
they were kept awake in thenight by the sound of a dog
scratching against the door, andevery time they got up to go and
(29:58):
let the dog in. There justwasn't anything there at all,
and they could hear this kind ofscampering noise scurrying away
down the down the stairs. Andthis happened so many times, and
they were absolutely convincedthat it was a dog. And then they
went down the next morning andspoke to the caretaker, and
said, well, you, it must havebeen your dog your dog was was
disturbing me all night. Youknow what, why? Why don't you
(30:22):
keep him, keep him in your roomat night, rather than let him
wander around the house. And thecaretaker said, I haven't got a
dog. I don't know what you'retalking about. And that story
has been told. But then a coupleof years ago, we had someone
doing some work in the house.
And they were just stood on thestaircase in the museum, and
felt something just just brushedpast their leg. And
(30:43):
instinctively, they reached outto pet a dog that they thought
was there. And then they turnedaround and there, there wasn't
anything and there wasn't anyonein the house, we were closed at
the time. But again, those thiskind of all those stories
combined, are things that welike to tell but which perhaps
our charity will be a bitannoyed with me for sharing in a
public forum. I've done it now.
Meg (31:08):
But it's like, like you said, it's interesting, because
it's like reflective of thehistory of storytelling within
the house generally, and thepeople who went and the stories
from them. I always think thisbecause I think it is a thing
that museums sometimes get a bitfunny about like, I know, we've
got some fascinating storiesthat visitors always love. But
we aren't always so keen to tellbecause some of that it's like
(31:30):
people have died. It's sad.
These are real people. So it'sit's a tricky one. But I think
whichever way you look at it isalways very interesting to hear.
And they are stories.
Owen (31:40):
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it kind of also reflects,
we have the challenge of beingan historic house, which loads
of people have lived in it wasbuilt 80 years before Jenner
moved there. And so it's gotthis kind of idea that it's been
inhabited for for 500, 600years. But we talk about Edward
Jenner, and people really wantto know, yeah, what were the
(32:03):
servants like, who was who wasliving there? What, what are the
stories that you got, and try topiece together the the
documentary evidence of thatwhen it's so tied up in this is
Dr. Jenner's house, this iswhere Edward Jenner lived and
that's all we can say about it.
Sara (32:19):
It's all been amazingly fascinating. I think the house
itself is so beautiful. And Ilove a historic house. So we're
only gutted that we couldn'tactually come and do this in
person. But as on when we can,we'll be on that train down to
Gloucester. And you are font ofknowledge.
Meg (32:36):
I think you're not... I think that you're a Wikipedia
page masquerading as a human.
Owen (32:43):
I'm putting that in my Twitter bio now.
Meg (32:46):
Brilliant. Okay, so Owen, you're a listener, so you should
know what questions we havecoming for you. So first one is
what's been your favourite dayat work?
Owen (32:56):
I forgot about this one but I have got an answer for it.
I was so psyched. I was soprepared for the takeaway
question that I forgot about thefavourite day at work question.
It's hard work. As I say it'shard work running an historic
house. And it's hard work,trying to find the funding to
keep it going. We don't get anyregular funding at all. There's
(33:17):
no government grants. So we'rereliant on everything that we do
ourselves. And a couple of yearsago, we were in a really, really
difficult financial situation,we'd had a couple of bad years
of visitor income, we've had acouple of serious maintenance
defects. And that was on theback of not being in the best
place financially to begin with.
And we needed to raise 20,000pounds by the end of the
(33:40):
financial year. And I just hadthis idea that maybe we should
kickstart our campaign byencouraging as many people as
possible to come to Dr. Jenner'shouse for a photograph in front
of of the house just to show thekind of strength of support for
Doctor Jenner's house. And so weput up posters around Berkeley,
we put it out on on Twitter andon social media, we wrote to the
(34:02):
papers, we tried to get as manypeople as possible to come down.
And then on the day, there wasjust that moment of no one's
going to come. We'd saideveryone was going to come at
11. Quarter to 11 there was noone there, it was chucking it
down with rain. And I thought,ah, this isn't gonna work at
all. Why on earth did I havethis idea? And then how I
(34:22):
remember it anyway, it probablywasn't quite so dramatic was
this, this sea of people justwalking up church lane towards
the museum, but gradually moreand more and more and more
people came. Someone phoned usup and said, oh, by the way,
I've got a Gloucester cow. Doyou want it to come along and
pretend to be Blossom? Yeah, soso we had this cow. We had a
(34:43):
couple of people who turned updressed as James Phipps and
Edward Jenner and Sarah Nelmsand just loads of people from
the community and we had...
about 300 people there. And itwas just fantastic and the photo
that was taken it's, it's onpretty much every page on our
website now because I love it somuch. It was just, it was that
(35:06):
moment where I think I thoughtwe've always known this place is
important as a staff team as avolunteer team. We are
absolutely passionate aboutEdward Jenner and promoting the
the role that the chantry and DrJenner's house has had in in
world history. I think it wasthat moment where we thought,
yeah, other people care aboutthis, too. This, this really is
important. I think it's been, itwas the catalyst for a
(35:30):
significant amount of of changeand growth. And it's just a
change in strategy in theorganisation. And the next year,
we went to National LotteryHeritage Fund, we used the photo
as evidence in our applicationto Heritage Fund for a grant to
help us work on a on a newstrategy for the museum. And so
(35:51):
coming into the start of lastyear, pandemic aside, we were in
the process of kind ofregrouping and growing as an
organisation. And hopefully wecan continue to do that in this
year and in the coming years,because we really want to ensure
that we're not in thatsituation, again, where we're in
such financial difficulty thatwe've got to go out pleaing for
people to come and support us.
But yeah, that the memories ofthat day, I just think the days
(36:13):
when I think no one really caresabout this. You know, you have
days where no one's replying toyour emails, and you're not
getting any likes on Twitter oryour things like that. And I
always go back to, to that dayand to yeah, the memories of
that day, and just just theconversations as well. People
telling us why Dr. Jenner'shouse was important to them.
(36:34):
Really good day.
Meg (36:37):
God, I feel like crying.
That's so lovely.
Sara (36:39):
It makes your heart sing doesn't it?
Meg (36:40):
I know it feels like that's, that's like the end of a
film.
Owen (36:44):
Yeah, well, I think it's cinematic in my head as well, as
I say all these people marchingup church lane coming towards
through the fog through themist, singing about Edward
Jenner.
Sara (36:54):
That is wonderful. Maybe it'll happen again when we're
all allowed to reopen. But yeah,I think as a side note, just to
add to that, I think it'sobviously been massively
devastating on a lot ofdifferent levels. But it's also
forced the sector to do a bit ofa hard think about how we do
things. And I think a lot ofgood's gonna come out of it as
well. I'm positive, I'm hopeful.
But anyway, moving, movingswiftly on. We have a
(37:15):
penultimate double edgedquestion, which is all about
takeaways. And first off, if youcould sum up a bit of a takeaway
for our listeners, abouteverything that we've talked
about today, please.
Meg (37:27):
She doesn't normally say please, by the way.
Sara (37:29):
I felt like I need to be very polite.
Owen (37:32):
It disarmed me. Thank you.
I think probably just that weneed small museums, we need
little stories, we need storiesthat have shaped the world in
many, many different ways. And Ithink it's just wonderful. You
know, Jenner is part of this,this huge story that goes from
the unnamed inoculators whofirst started trying to work out
(37:56):
how to prevent smallpox withwith smallpox, all the way up to
the people working on the OxfordAstraZeneca vaccine. Now, the
people working on the Pfizerbiontech vaccine, just there's a
whole history of all of thesepeople working on on vaccine
development, people who areinvolved in the roll out people
who are involved in arrangingfor, you know, encouraging
(38:19):
people to take it, just sharingpositive messages. And so I
think it's just amazing thatthrough one house here in the
middle of the Gloucestershirecountryside, it's amazing that
that story can be told. And longmay continue.
Sara (38:37):
Absolutely hear, hear, hear. So you know, what's coming
up next. And this is gettingmore and more interesting each
episode that we do, and givingus a lot of literal food for
thought. So what's your actualfavourite literal takeaway?
Owen (38:53):
Yeah. So it's really difficult because I was
listening back to... I wantedto... preparing for this because
this is the one question thatI've been really terrified by.
Meg (39:03):
It's really hard, isn't it?
Owen (39:04):
Because we don't have that much in the way of takeaways in
in Berkeley. And I was listeningback and everyone on on the pod
before has said, Oh, yeah, it'sthis particular place, and I
have this particular thing. Ijust like fish and chips.
Meg (39:19):
Oh, my God. I literally was sitting here thinking I bet he's
gonna choose fish and chips. Idon't know what you give off
fish and chip energy Owen.
Sara (39:26):
Oh, yeah.
Owen (39:27):
I don't know if that's a compliment or not.
Meg (39:29):
Absolutely it is.
Owen (39:30):
Fish and Chips by the seaside. It's what I can't wait
for when, when this is all over.
But as a temporary thing. We'vegot a circus that operates
around this part ofGloucestershire called Gifford
circus. It's absolutelyfantastic. It's really
wonderful. To try and keep theirincome going during the pandemic
and during the first lockdown,they started doing takeaway of
(39:54):
not of circus but they have anonsite restaurant - it's a very
very fancy circus but...
Sara (40:02):
I was going to say, what circus does takeaway? I'm
thinking like candy floss.
Owen (40:06):
Yeah no, no... So I went twice because I enjoyed it so
much. It's like beef rib withdates and hazelnuts with
beetroot gratin, and a stickytoffee pudding type thing for
dessert. And then the next timewas Ethiopian night so they had
(40:26):
various different Ethiopianlentil and lamb and vegetable
stews, and then the most divinecoffee and chocolate cake that I
I'm very tempted every time Ithink about that, I think I
gotta have to email them to askfor the recipe because it's just
probably one of the best thingsI've ever eaten. So Gifford
Circus have been a very veryworthy lockdown takeaway and
(40:48):
it's been fantastic to tryand... I convinced myself that
it's a good thing because it'sit's it's helping a business in
lockdown, but really, I justlike the food but also can't
wait for fish and chips again.
Meg (40:58):
And just on fish and chips.
Owen I need I need some more. Ineed you to tell me what you
like are you mushy peas? Are youcurry sauce? What's like...
because up here, people...
Sara (41:09):
Gravy?
Meg (41:09):
Yeah, see gravy. No no no.
I'm from down south. And when Icame up here, I'd never heard of
scraps. And I don't know whetherthat's like a good... Like,
what's the thing down there?
Owen (41:20):
Yeah, when I was at York, some friends of mine, we set up
a student society called chipsoc. And yeah, I definitely give
off fish and chip vibes don't I?
So we set up this society calledchip Soc. I think because we
thought maybe the Student Unionwould pay us to go and eat fish
and chips every week, but theyweren't happy to fund it for
(41:41):
some reason. So we met everyFriday and tried to go to every
single fish and chip shop inYork over the course of our
degree. And there's a lot offish and chip shops in York. And
yeah, we had a lot ofexperiences and tried a lot of
things I mean so because yeahcuz I think in Hull people are
really into into chip spice. Andso tried chip spice - not for me
(42:06):
really but scraps are fantastic.
I like mushy peas as well. IfI'm up north, it's it's Haddock,
chips, mushy peas, scraps. Andif I'm down here, it's Cod,
chips, mushy peas and havequizzical look when I ask for
scraps.
Meg (42:27):
Brilliant. Do you know I've recently changed my... Because I
used to be like Haddock andchips and mushy peas. Scraps
sometimes, but they're a littlebit too much for me sometimes.
But recently, I've changed goneso rogue and now I'm just fish
butty. I'm just straight up,fish butty bit of ketchup
inside, sometimes a bit like alayer of mushy peas spread on
the bottom. But...
Owen (42:47):
Have you ever had a Sheffield fish cake? They've got
like a layer of potato then thelayer of fish then another layer
of potato and it's all battered.
Sara (42:55):
I do love a fish cake, our local fish and chip shop which
is just at the end of the road,the lady who did all of the like
home cooked bits she made poshfish cakes. And it was the
secret thing on the recipe, onlike the menu, which wasn't a
secret but it was to me becauseno one knew how good it was. No
one appreciated how amazing itwas to the point where we'd go
(43:17):
in and she just she just knewlike, we didn't get fish and
chips all the time. But yeah, itwas a big parsely fish cake. And
now it's no longer there. Sosad.
Meg (43:27):
Owen, I'm going to call this now. I think that me and
you should start a podcast aboutfish and chips. Sara you're not
invited, sorry.
Sara (43:33):
Thanks, thanks.
Meg (43:36):
Brilliant. Okay, we have literally been recording for
like an hour and 15 minutes.
This is gonna be so hellish toedit.
Owen (43:44):
Sorry!
Meg (43:44):
No it's ok it's been lovely talking to you Owen, thank you
so much for coming on.
Owen (43:49):
Thank you for inviting me.
Meg (43:51):
Iya.
Sara (43:52):
Iya what you having.
Meg (43:54):
Digestive.
Sara (43:55):
Oh, nice. I just had a little chocolate chip muffin.
Meg (43:58):
Oh, yeah. I've just had the most... In the time, in between
the time it's taken for us tointerview Owen my sister got
engaged. And more importantly, Idid a boxercise youtube video.
Sara (44:10):
Wow.
Meg (44:11):
Yeah, but afterwards, I was sitting there and I stood up and
mate. I have done some bits tomy back. Can you see that there?
Hot water bottle. So I'm sathere with hot water bottle, I've
been watching a YouTube videoabout how to tell if it's
muscular or a pinched nerve bythese two guys from America from
like the 90s called like Dan andBob. They're like really old
(44:31):
men. And I've got like a littlebit of water with a little bit
pinch of salt in. My back feelslike snakes.
Sara (44:40):
Feels like snakes? It's quite a busy couple of hours for
you. I can't say I've doneanything nearly as exciting. The
only other thing that's happenedis we probably need a new boiler
so that's good.
Meg (44:50):
Oh, mate.
Sara (44:51):
I don't want it there. I wanted it where it is it's out
the way.
Meg (44:55):
Well, we've both had a bloody nightmare haven't we
mate. On the bright side we didhave a lovely morning talking to
Owen.
Sara (45:01):
We did have a lovely morning talking to Owen. It was
incredibly insightful. And Idon't think I'll ever have that
much knowledge in my head.
Meg (45:08):
Yeah, I'm the same. I don't think I've ever spoken to
someone or like been part of aconversation with anyone ever in
my life that has been - thatsounds dramatic - I actually do
mean this like, it was like hewas reading off of... off of
something, but he literallywasn't.
Sara (45:23):
Off of a story book.
Meg (45:25):
And also really nice to meet him actually, finally.
Sara (45:28):
Yeah, shame about the blanket fort but oh well.
Meg (45:30):
I need to send him a picture of my house. Actually.
That's kind of weird, isn't it?
I met you. I met you today. Letme show you my house. Anyway,
what was your favourite learn?
You like the cow? I know you do.
Blossom.
Sara (45:41):
Oh, I do love. I do love the cow. I was a bit sad that
she's kind of everywhere. But Isuppose that was inevitable. And
I quite liked the fact... I sayquite like the fact. It's kind
of comforting to know that therewere a lot of vaccine naysayers
back in back in them days. Andthe way that it was kind of
dealt with was it was like,well, we're not going to talk to
(46:01):
you. Because what's the point?
There's no time we need to justcrack on with this. I think
that's really a really goodattitude. And he just kind of
went you know what, keeping thispositive. I'm only going to deal
with the people that want to bepart of this. And if you don't
want to, if you don't want to bepart of it, that's okay. You
know, like, you you do whateveryou want. That was my thing. It
was kind of that was kind ofgeneric, but what was your best
(46:22):
learn? Apart from ghosts?
Meg (46:26):
Oh, yeah. I did wonder how ghosts was going to go down
because as Owen was talking, Iwas like, God, everything he's
saying is just reallyintelligent. I know that I'm
about to ask him about ghosts. Idon't know how he's gonna take
it. The ghosts was good. Butwell, my favourite learn to be
fair was the grapes.
Sara (46:44):
I knew you'd... you love grapes. Because you've got a
grapevine, you think you're Mrs.
Wine.
Meg (46:51):
But actually to be to be fair, to be fair to him, my
favourite part of that wasactually him telling us about
that time when all those peoplecame.
Sara (46:59):
Yeah I know that was lovely.
Meg (47:01):
That was really sweet.
Sara (47:02):
It made my heart swell up a little.
Meg (47:04):
I just think it's so easy.
When you're listening to likethe radio, and you're reading
newspapers, a lot of the thingsabout museums are to do with the
big huge stories involving likenational museums and bigger
museum services. And I honestlyjust think if you live in a
little village or a little town,or you know of a small museum,
go, literally go because yourmoney, like the money that
(47:27):
you're paying, literally willsave it. Just go get a cup of
tea, buy a magnet to give toyour nan.
Sara (47:36):
Have a chat.
Meg (47:38):
Have a chat yeah, have a chat. And just have a lovely
time and save people's jobs andmuseums. I wish I could drop
this mic without it making areally annoying noise.
Sara (47:50):
Just like boing. I think it is. It is a big thing,
though. And like we totally takeit for granted that they're just
there and it's something that wehave and like I don't know, it's
such a massive part of ourculture. Important isn't it.
Meg (48:05):
I love a little museum. I'm not sure if I said this on the
pod before, but one of my bestmuseums I've ever been in is the
museum in Mevagissy which islike this tiny little fishing
village in Cornwall and it'sjust so good. It's like it
converted fisherman's hut. Justthink Yeah, small museums. Well
done.
Sara (48:22):
Good excellent. Well done.
Meg (48:23):
Go on, then you can do this bit.
Sara (48:25):
We have to do some thanks no. Come on. Sara. I think about
it. Right.
Meg (48:30):
You sound how my back feels.
Sara (48:32):
Yeah, exacerbated with being alive. Yeah, so a couple
of thank yous, Tim Bentley forour theme tune, which I haven't
heard for ages. Because I alwayslistened to the edits without
music. So might treat myself tothat. And, and then Alex Finney.
For our delicious cover artwork,look at your face. You're like,
What is she gonna say next? Whatis she gonna come out with?
Meg (48:55):
It's like, it's like in that in that episode when he
says, Can you tell us what yourfavourite takeaway is? Please?
And the please, just really, itwas just crazy. Go on.
Sara (49:05):
In other news, please subscribe. And leave us a review
because it really helps ourratings. And it means that we
can carry on doing this.
Meg (49:11):
By the way, actually, if you're listening to this right
now, if you're hearing thisactual bit that are saying, it
meant that you've made it allthe way through, which might
mean that you really enjoythese. And there is a chance
that you will do as we say.
Sara (49:26):
Or you could have already done that and you're sick of us
saying it.
Meg (49:28):
Oh, yeah, we do really need them though. We're a bit...
despacito to see. But...
Sara (49:37):
So embarassing.
Meg (49:38):
I've gone red. I've actually gone red. Brilliant.
Sara (49:43):
You can download transcripts off the website, if
reading's your thing. And alsoyou follow us on social media
@MuseumMeg and @Saralmerrit and@LeedsMuseums and galleries.
Meg (49:56):
Great, right. That's it.
That's all folks. See you nexttime.
Well what I like about genetics is that like you don't
(00:02):
know what you've got? Really.
It's just a mixed bag isn't it.
Meg (00:06):
What, so likeyou don't know which bits of which parent
you're gonna get.
Sara (00:08):
Yeah, and also how you your genetics then go, do you
know what I'm gonna do this bitdifferently.
Meg (00:15):
Hello it's us and welcome to the Museums n'That podcast
where each episode we have achingwag and serve you the
steaming hot tea on the thingsthat museum people love the
most. We're your hosts Meg andSara from Leeds Museums and
Galleries, and we get to knowthe people behind the objects by
asking them the questions thatyou really want to know.
(00:46):
Also, I feel like wheneverI say that I go 'podcast'. Do
you know what I mean?
Sara (00:51):
Yeah, yeah, we should...
We should get someone with areally strong Leeds accent to do
it actually.
Meg (00:56):
Good idea Sara.
Sara (00:58):
Thank you. All right. I'm gonna go first. Hi, how are you
tell me one thing for the week,because you always go first.
Meg (01:02):
This is a turn out for the books isn't it.
Sara (01:04):
Just because I'm ready this week and I'm excited about
it.
Meg (01:08):
Brilliant, yeah I know I just feel like really
disorganised and dishevelled.
And yeah, I've mainly just beenexisting. The only the one thing
that has been really good, whichis a general recommendation for
you and any listeners, Ilistened to the Barack Obama and
Bruce Springsteen podcast. Haveyou heard about this? It's
called renegades in the USA,which I literally love. And it's
just Barack Obama and BruceSpringsteen, just having a
(01:30):
little chat in in Bruce's house.
And it's insane. It's so lovely.
And also both of them have themost ridiculous voices like I
was listening to it and laughingthinking how how like, shrill
and abrasive our voices arecompared to them. But yeah,
there was a bit that made megenuinely emotional. Got a bit
teary. And go on. How are youtell me one good thing.
Sara (01:55):
Yeah. So my one thing that I did this week, which was
really exciting was I bought anart print. But wait for it. It's
not off of an artist. It's offof a comedian. It's a print from
Joe Lycett and it's of bluehyacinths and it's very good.
I'm very excited to get itbecause I think he's brilliant
and hilarious. And if you don'tlike his humour, then you won't
(02:17):
you won't, absolutely won't getthe artwork. But I think it's
brilliant.
Meg (02:22):
That's really cute. You know how everyone was like
buying loads of stuff inlockdown. I felt like I like
buying art and stuff in my housebecause I know that I'm like,
gonna fit into it when we're outof lockdown. Whenever I buy
clothes, I'm like, Am I gonna?
Is it?
Sara (02:37):
Yeah. Also that's a good egg amount behind you there. I'm
jealous. I don't have any eggsin stock.
Meg (02:44):
You mean 12 large?
Sara (02:46):
Yeah. 12 large. It's the only amount you should ever get.
Meg (02:50):
Yeah, normally... I've been dipping in to Burford browns.
Sara (02:56):
Oh, very posh.
Meg (02:57):
Really good. Anyway, we're literally descending into egg
chat. We need to get this done.
Okay, go on. You say because youknow what, and I'm gonna,
there's a strong chance I'mgoing to call you out on this
when we're talking to him.
You've gone deep. You've gonedeep in the research for this
one. I'm so embarrassed.
Sara (03:14):
No, not really. I just like to be you know, aware.
Meg (03:18):
Right go on, tell us.
Sara (03:20):
Okay, so today we have Owen Gower. He is the museum
manager at Dr. Jenner's House,which, in my head, I keep
thinking of Jeckyll and Hyde.
Not the same.
Meg (03:31):
That's so funny because in my head, I keep thinking of
Kylie Jenner.
Sara (03:34):
Brilliant. So total opposite ends of the spectrum.
Both of which fictionalcharacters, maybe maybe not. Dr.
Jenner's House, down off ofGloucester. Very nice part of
the world. So he's the vaccinepioneer really, isn't he Edward
Jenner? We're going to talkabout the history of smallpox
and vaccination, which is verytopical for us.
Meg (03:54):
Also you literally didn't drop in, literally, five minutes
before we started recording,Sara was like, ooh, the origins
of Owen's name.
Sara (04:05):
It was just a little side note that I happened to read
about this morning. We don'tneed to know, it's boring.
Meg (04:12):
But yeah, so we're hopefully gonna find out some
more stuff about what the kindof things in the collection the
history of Edward Jenner and,and neither of us have ever met
Owen before. Right?
Sara (04:24):
No, no, no. Just, you know, a bit of casual social
media stalking, as you do.
Meg (04:29):
Absolutely. I don't think I've met him but I've seen him.
I mean, that's weird isn't itbut like...
Sara (04:39):
Well you are know for being a massive creep.
Meg (04:45):
Brilliant, thank you.
That's literally not what I wantto be known as. I think I saw
him do a talk once and Iremember sitting there thinking,
Hmm, this seems like a nice manwith interesting things to say.
And this was literally likethree years ago.
Sara (04:59):
Such insight, thank you.
Meg (05:05):
To be fair Owen has told me that he's a listener so he knows
what he's in for. Right? OwenGower's episode of Museums
n'That everyone, enjoy. Oh, thatwas a weird intonation wasn't
it?
Enjoy. Enjoy. No...
Sara (05:21):
Enjoy.
Meg (05:22):
Enjoy. I cannot say it without sounding sarcastic.
Enjoy.
That'll do. Listen to it, don't,I don't care. Oh god.
Owen (05:34):
Morning!
Meg (05:35):
Owen! Hello! How are you?
Owen (05:39):
Yeah I'm more I think I'm bit flustered my my blanket fort
just fell down. So sorry I was abit lare, I was just rebuilding
it.
Meg (05:46):
Honestly don't worry that is the best excuse anyone's ever
had. I was kind of hoping thatyou'd come in though and be like
shrouded in like a littleblanket.
Owen (05:54):
Yeah, I did try that. But I did a recording a couple of
months ago with radio four. Andthey had a proper actor in to
read a voice part. And he wasliterally he was like, right,
I'm going under the blanket nowand disappeared under this
blanket and then came back out.
So I kind of thought that looksa bit weird.
Meg (06:13):
Brilliant. Also, I really wish that I was upstairs in my
house because Sara, don't youthink that my upstairs in my
house looks exactly the same asOwens?
Sara (06:21):
It is very, very similar.
Meg (06:23):
Owen later, I'll take a picture of it for you. My setup
is weirdly the exact same asyours. Like it looks like you're
in my house.
Sara (06:30):
Also. Is that a washing thing in the back?
Owen (06:36):
Yes, that's the blanket fort.
Sara (06:37):
Brilliant.
Owen (06:39):
So the first question as always, is who the flip are you?
I'm Owen Gower. I'm the museummanager at Dr. Jenner's house in
Berkeley in Gloucestershire andwe're on the banks of the river
seven, sort of halfway betweenBristol and Gloucester.
Meg (06:53):
This is literally the worst question I'm ever going to ask,
I don't know why it's poppedinto my head. But what's better?
Bristol or Gloucester?
Owen (06:59):
Ooh. I've got a lot of love for Gloucester. Gloucester
I think is the one that peoplepeople - ooh, I'm going to get
myself in trouble - but I thinka lot of people have a really
down view of Gloucester, butit's just got such fantastic
history. It's got all theselittle narrow alleys and kind of
weird things, you can just stepoff of the main road in
Gloucester and find yourself upagainst this, looking up at
(07:20):
this, this 17th century house,this timber framed house that is
next to a branch of McDonald's,and no one ever sees it because
it's just this little alleywaythat doesn't go anywhere. It's
got one of the best cathedralsin the country in the world
perhaps. It's just got such arich history.
Meg (07:37):
And you know, good to know there's a McDonald's there.
Okay, so the natural nextquestion then is who the flip is
Dr. Jenner?
Owen (07:47):
Well, that's a that's a really good question. Because I
mean, I've been working at Dr.
Jenner's House for seven yearsnow. And when I started, and
this is the big embarrassment,is that I didn't really know who
Dr. Jenner was when I started.
And he's got one of these namesthat I think is associated with
science with discovery and ofcourse with vaccination now, but
so many people don't really knowmuch about him at all other than
(08:09):
maybe a kind of story thatthey've been told at school
about cows, dairy maids, andsmallpox. I mean, he's best
known now as the pioneer ofvaccination. He was the first
person in the world to do what Ithink we think of now as
clinical trials into the use ofcow pox to protect against
smallpox. And in doing so hereally set in place, everything
(08:30):
that's that's going on in theworld today. 200 years of
vaccine development. It'ssomething like 26 different
diseases we can now protectagainst through vaccination. And
it saves between two and 3million lives every year and
smallpox is eradicated. AndJenner plays a really crucial
part in that, because he was theperson who not just tried it
(08:50):
out, but also told everyone howto do it and started to try and
teach people to do their ownvaccination and really
established it as the amazingpreventative tool that it is
today.
Sara (09:01):
If he was around today, do you think he would be... he'd be
a good lad to have around? Doyou think you'd be like best
mates with him?
Owen (09:09):
Yeah, I think so. I mean, Jenner is one of my I think one
of my personal heroes. I mean, Iknow that I'm paid to say that,
but also, it really is true. Imean, the more I learn about
Jenner, the more I think he musthave been just such a such a
character because it wasn't justthat he had this idea, he did a
bizarre experiment and justchanced it. It really was the
(09:32):
culmination of about 40 years ofthinking of work of talking to
people collecting evidence,before he started this this
process and actually tried itout really thoroughly and
scientifically. He made notes,he had his experiment, he had
his test. So on the 14th of May1796, he deliberately infected
(09:56):
an eight year old boy calledJames Phipps with cow pox. And
he then waited for a little bit,James developed a kind of minor
fever probably was a little bitsore, a little bit tender, but
made a quick recovery. And thenJenner tested it - he did what
we probably think of as achallenge trial today. He tried
to infect Phipps with smallpox.
And nothing happened, Phippsdidn't contract smallpox, but
(10:19):
then Jenner tried it again. Andhe tried it again. And he
actually kept trying it forquite a few years afterwards.
And we get the word vaccinationfrom the Latin vaca, meaning
cow. And he then devoted therest of his life to telling
people how to how to do it. Andhe didn't try and profit from
it, either. He set up a smallhut in his garden to vaccinate
(10:39):
people. And he was very willingto just share his knowledge with
with anyone I think, really,he's one of history's really
good, guys.
Meg (10:50):
I mean, fair play. It's a pretty, pretty nice thing to do,
isn't it? And my question when Iwas reading this, this story of
James Phipps and is it SaraNelms the milkmaid. So he took
the cow pox, or the smallpoxfrom a blister on her hand?
Owen (11:08):
Yeah, I mean, so I mean, I don't know how, how gory your
podcast viewers want me to go...
Meg (11:13):
Oh, God, go, go, go. Go gory.
Owen (11:16):
So smallpox is called smallpox, because that's a
description of the symptoms,people will get these
characteristic pustulesgenerally on their their hands,
their arms, their face. Butreally, it's the virus is
working its way around the wholebody. Prevention was better than
cure. And so in parts of Turkey,parts of the Middle East, China,
(11:39):
India, Africa, and then thisbizarre kind of little group of
people in South Wales, as well,roughly about the same time
start performing this practicethat became known as inoculation
or varielation. And that'sdeliberate infection with
smallpox with the aim ofprovoking an immune response.
They didn't know how it worked.
They didn't really know anythingabout it. But they did know that
(12:00):
if you had smallpox once, youwouldn't get it again. So this
this kind of thing was practisedin various parts of the world,
but was eventually brought backto Western medicine in 1721 by
Lady Mary Wortley Montagu inBritain. She had been the wife
to the British ambassador toTurkey. And she had witnessed it
being practised there and usedher influence in society when
(12:20):
she came back to England to tryand encourage people to receive
this, this inoculation, thisvarielation. So that's 1721.
About the same time in theStates, an enslaved man called
an Onesimis, who had beenforcibly taken from we think
West Africa, and sold to aPuritan preacher in Boston, told
his owner about this practicethat he had experienced of being
(12:45):
deliberately infected withsmallpox. So this kind of
existed for about 60, 70 yearsprior to Jenner in western
medicine. Sort of at the startof Jenner's career, he starts
hearing about people in thelocal area, using cow pox to
protect themselves againstsmallpox. And cow pox is I think
it was known as a disease ofmilkmaids or farmers, you would
(13:07):
get it through little cuts onyour hands. If you were milking,
if you're coming into closecontact with cows, and then you
would have a really big pustuleform up on the site of the
infection. And Jenner took thisidea, okay, if we can
deliberately infect people withsmallpox, why don't we try and
deliberately infect people withcow pox to see if we can if we
can provide that protectionagainst smallpox? And so yeah,
(13:31):
he waited until someone came upto him and said, I've got cow
pox and that was a milkmaidcalled Sarah Nelms, and the
legend is that she picked upthis infection from her cow who
was called Blossom. We've got apainting of Blossom at the
museum. Blossom has somethinglike 20 different cow horns
scattered in medical museumcollections around the country.
(13:54):
Her hide is in St. George'sHospital in London. So Sarah
Nelms had the cow pox blister.
Jenner took a lancet it to it,he extracted some fluid from
that blister, and then hescratched it into the upper arm
of James Phipps. So then Phippswould have contracted the
(14:15):
disease, he would have had alocalised infection, the blister
would have formed there. AndJenner kind of actually went to
steps to look at every stage ofthis process. He drew pictures,
he described it, he tried totell people exactly what does a
cowpox blister look like? Whatshould it look like? How do we
know that it's, it's not becomeit's not the secondary
(14:35):
infection. How do we know we'venot accidentally given someone
smallpox or something completelydifferent. And then the second
stage was to go back andeffectively to inoculate Phipps.
And indeed we ask loads ofquestions about what's the
ethics of infecting an eightyear old boy, Jenner, I think
knew that you had to find asubject who had never had
smallpox and had never had cowpox and Phipps was the son of
(14:58):
his gardener. So they knew eachother fairly well. And I think
Jenner could have been fairlycertain that he would have been
a good, good subject.
Sara (15:06):
It's really interesting because not wanting to go into
too much detail about it as anon expert, but you know...
Meg (15:14):
Here she goes...
Sara (15:15):
Here I go - vaccinations, now one of our questions, I
mean, we could probably guessthe answer to this, but in terms
of like, apprehensions aroundvaccinations, certainly, like
from a museum perspective, butmaybe generally, you spent a lot
of this year talking about that.
And do you think that that willbe a kind of a theme going
forwards as to how the museumwill look at I suppose?
Meg (15:39):
I did think when I got in touch with you,Owen, to ask you
to come on, I though ugh he'sgoing to be getting booked up...
Owen (15:44):
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. Everyone wants to
talk about anti vaccination. Ithink I've, I've disappointed a
few people so far in the pastyear, because actually, we try
and we try and look at it in thesame way that Jenner did.
Because Jenner was facing thesame kind of arguments, some of
the arguments that you see beingreplayed on the internet now are
(16:04):
exactly the same arguments thatpeople were using to attack
vaccination back in the 1790s.
In the early 1800s. I mean, Ithink last year, there was a
campaign in some parts, somecountries in the world that was
presenting this idea that ifyou've got the Oxford
AstraZeneca vaccine, that youwould turn into a chimpanzee,
because the viral vector is froma chimp adenovirus. That's
(16:28):
completely rubbish. But alsoback in Jenner's time, people
thought, potentially, that theymight become more bovine in
characteristics, they mightstart developing a liking for
eating grass. There's even thesecartoons of people growing horns
or developing udders and thingslike that. But I think also,
it's really important to saythat we focus a lot on anti
(16:49):
vaccination, on the the antivaxxers. But the actual focus, I
think, that we want to have, andthe focus that Jenner I think
would have wanted to have is onthe people who are perhaps just
a little bit unsure. They wantto make an informed choice. And
I think we need to give peoplethe the time and the space to be
able to have thoseconversations, but be able to
(17:13):
have them with people who knowthe answers. Edward Jenner
vaccinated people from Berkeleyand from the surrounding area
free of charge. And one accountof him during that vaccination
is that he perfectly understandsthe fears and concerns of all
those who come to to bevaccinated. Yeah, I mean, a lot
of people say to me, oh, EdwardJenner, no, it must have been,
(17:34):
he must be really, reallyannoyed. He'd be turning in his
grave about anti vaccinationactivists. And I think I just
have to say, Well, I think hewould have expected it. But I
think also, he'd be really keento change the conversation away
from Pro vaccination versus antivaccination to accepting that
yeah, people people have someconcerns. That's only right. It
(17:58):
doesn't mean those concerns arenecessarily justified. But it
does mean that we should be ableto have those conversations and
give people space so that theyfeel comfortable with it, and
they can make that informeddecision about whether they want
to be vaccinated or not.
Meg (18:16):
Owen when you go to bed at night, do you dream about cows
and smallpox and vaccinations?
Owen (18:23):
Yeah, I mean, I, I'm a bit... I can actually see the
museum out my window sill. Soalthough I'm working from home,
I can still see out of thewindow, which is a bit it's a
bit off putting sometimes I kindof, yeah, I do look out and
think oh, I hope it's all okayover there. Yeah, it's quite
difficult to get away from. Andeven things like, bit behind on
(18:47):
on things like watching TheGreat because I know that we're
about to get to the smallpoxepisode. And I'm not sure I can
quite bear to have an evening ofwatching more more smallpox
things, particularly at themoment. But yeah, I haven't got
to the stage of having havingsmallpox dreams yet. I'm still
mostly dreaming about having myhead stuck in the computer,
which is a whole differentstory.
Meg (19:08):
Been there. Yeah, I feel like we've been recording for
what, like 29 minutes and youmore than any other guest I feel
like you are literally amachine. And I mean that as a
biggest compliment ever. I feellike I've just absorbed so much
information. Yeah.
Sara (19:22):
It's incredible.
Owen (19:24):
I've had practices this past year talking about?
Sara (19:26):
Yeah, yeah.
Megan Jones (19:28):
Just I know. You mentioned the museum then, in
fact, you can see out of yourwindow and a big part of what I
wanted to talk to you abouttoday was the museum and your
experiences working there. Sojust as a historic House Museum,
how does that work? Like are youscared to touch things? Like
where's your desk? What room'syour desk in, those kinds of
things?
Owen (19:49):
Am I scared to touch things? Yes. The challenge for
us is kind of that the buildingis part of the collection, as
well. So you get reallyprotective about the building.
And yeah, that same sort offeeling when you look at an
object and think, oh, you knowthere's a bit falling off of
that or something. You get thesame feeling with the building,
(20:10):
is something falling off of thebuilding. My desk is is not very
glamorous. So the office is inan outbuilding. I stare at a
wall day, and it doesn't feelhistoric at all. And we're
separate to the main house. Soactually going into the main
house, yeah, being in the mainhouse is a real joy. I still get
(20:30):
quite a thrill going in there.
And I think probably more sothis year, because it's been so
rare to go in. And actuallyevery time I go into museum and
throw open the shutters and justtry and make it feel a bit more
lifted. It's really just nice. Iget that little feeling of
something happened here. We'rewalking around here we're
touching the bannister thatJenner might have touched. We're
(20:51):
in the study that Jenner didmost of his work in perhaps it
was here that he wrote his 1798book telling the world how to
vaccinate. It's just such a sucha special place. It is also a
complete pain because you add azero on to the cost of
everything with a building likeDr. Jenner's House.
Meg (21:10):
What's your favourite room?
Or like favourite quirk aboutthe house?
Owen (21:15):
I'm gonna I'm gonna answer a different question and be
annoying. My least favouritething about the house is that
it's completely symmetricalexcept for one window from and I
think I went four years withoutnoticing it. And ever since I've
seen that it's just every time Igo in, it really, really really
frustrates me. I don't know why.
Because I just don't know why ithappened.
Sara (21:38):
Well, I imagine it's a bit like Tom Cruise's middle tooth.
Once you see it, you can't unseeit.
Meg (21:44):
Exactly the same thing. And I wonder if I wonder if Jenner
was also annoyed by him.
Owen (21:49):
I think he did get quite easily annoyed by little
slightly petty things. So weknow that he got into a few rows
with his gardener because hisgardener wasn't looking after
his vegetables in the way thatJenner had this plan for how you
should look after vegetables. Heprobably had given it a lot of
scientific thought. And then Ithink his Gardner came along and
(22:10):
sort of I've been doing thisthis way for however many years.
So it's...
Meg (22:13):
The logical thing in my head that you're about to say
them was he got into an argumentwith this gardener because he
was injecting his son.
Owen (22:19):
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, again, it's not recorded what the
gardener thought about that. AndI think Janner could have cut
him a bit of slack really afterafter all that, rather than just
going straight into a rant aboutbeetroot.
Sara (22:30):
Don't bite the hand that literally feeds.
Meg (22:33):
With the garden. One thing that always... That I always
think about is like, are all theplants the same? Like does the
historic houseness of Dr.
Jenner's house extend to thegarden?
Owen (22:45):
So there's there's one plant that's really really
special and that is a constantsource of anxiety, which is a
grape vine that was planted byEdward Jenner in 1816. The story
is that the same vine we have inthe garden now is that vine that
was planted by Jenner, and Idon't want to be the person who
(23:05):
oversaw the death of EdwardJenner's grape vine I can't
imagine that being that being agood thing for the CV. The rest
of it, Jenner made notes aboutsome of the things he had,
particularly the weird andwonderful things he had, a
transparent apple and he hadwhite strawberries, and things
like that. But the house waslived in after Jenner died. So
(23:26):
Jenner died in 1823. His sonlived in it for a few years
after that. Then the propertywas rented out then it became a
Vicarage. At some point, thevicar put in a tennis court on
the lawn, and obviously plantedtheir own flowers. We get
cylamen growing around the baseof one of the trees and the
story there is that the wife ofone of the vicars went to the
(23:51):
Vatican. And there in the Pope'sprivate garden, she saw some
cylamen and thought ooh, theseare nice. So she carefully
pulled one out of the ground andhid it in her umbrella and took
it all the way back from Italyand planted it in Berkeley. And
supposedly they still grow theretoday. So I think they're the
two plants, the vine and theCyclamen that we're really quite
(24:11):
precious about.
Meg (24:12):
When you said grapevine, then all I can think of in my
head was I really hope thatyou're going to make some wine.
Owen (24:19):
Yeah, we so they're dessert grapes. I'm not a fan of
grapes. I don't really likethem. They're quite sharp, and
they've got loads of seeds.
Meg (24:27):
I don't like grapes, then everyone's always like why don't
you like grapes...
Sara (24:30):
Unless they're wine...
Meg (24:30):
Unless they're liquidised grapes. But they just remind me
of being ill.
Owen (24:34):
Yeah. And we ended up with so many bunches of grapes that
we're literally just giving awayto neighbours. It's a bit like
the whole cause yet thing. Lastyear, two years ago, we've got a
local brewery, and they justtook a whole crop of grapes and
steeped them in beer for a yearand then left it to ferment for
(24:55):
a bit longer and bottled it up.
And that's the closest we've gotto making wine so far is grape
beer.
Sara (25:03):
What's the brewery?
Owen (25:04):
It's called Mills brewery.
Sara (25:07):
Okay.
Meg (25:07):
Sara's a beer head.
Sara (25:09):
Well that's really interesting though.
Meg (25:11):
So in terms of the house, I know you mentioned the painting
of Blossom. What is thecollection like and are you
still discovering things aswell?
Owen (25:19):
The history of the collection is a bit of a
challenge for us because a lotof the the main prominent Jenner
objects, so things like Jenner'spapers, Jenner's lancets were
collected and put into museumcollections long before we
started. But when we wereestablished, there were a few
family items that hadn't made itinto Wellcome's collection. So
(25:41):
things like the Jenner familychristening gown, with bits and
pieces like teapots, and copiesof publications that have been
passed down the family, ended upin our collection. So in terms
of what visitors see, when theycome around the museum, they
start off looking at some of theitems that are just the Jenner
family items, like thechristening gown, which is just
(26:02):
such a wonderful thing to have.
And then we've got items thatwere owned by Jenner used by
Jenner (26:06):
prescriptions that he had written out, we've got
lancets that were used forvaccination and for other
surgical things.
Meg (26:16):
What sorry, what is a lancet?
Owen (26:18):
A lancet - it is literally, it's a small Lance.
It is a tiny surgical blade. Soit's a steel, sharp, pointy
thing. They weren't usingneedles, they were using just
basically literally taking thematerial on the tip of this tiny
blade and then scratching itinto the skin.
Sara (26:35):
Interesting.
Meg (26:36):
Just before we get on to our like questions that we
normally ask people everyepisode, I just have one last
question for you. Owen which ismaybe annoying... because I know
some people don't like to talkabout this. But every time I go
into a historic house, and I'mgetting a tour or anything, I'm
obviously interested in thehistory of the house, objects,
brilliant. But what I reallywant to know are ghost stories.
(26:56):
Are there any ghost stories fromDr. Jenner's House?
Owen (26:58):
Oh, it's I'm going to get in a lot of trouble for saying
this because we're sort of...
we're a science museum. But ofcourse they're stories, aren't
they? And they're kind of thingsthat people have told throughout
the centuries. And they shedsuch an interesting light on who
lived in the house. And I thinkthat's what I find I really like
about the ghost storiesassociated with Dr. Jenner's
House. So the main one is thefew years ago, a BBC
(27:20):
photographer took some timelapsephotos in the in the attic,
we've got an attic space that'snot really been touched that
much. It's probably it's the onearea of the museum that hasn't
been restored, hasn't been doneup for visitor access. So you
access it through these narrowrickety stairs. And it's...
yeah, it's a really atmosphericand it's quite a it's quite
(27:42):
creepy place. I don't likespending that much time up
there. But this photographertook this image that had a shape
disturbance on it. And the storythat's kind of being formed
around that was based on, Ithink, based on other
experiences that people have hadin the attic. So this idea that
this was the tutor who waslooking after Edward Jenner's
(28:06):
son. Edward Jenner's son, eldestson, had learning difficulties
from birth and a tutor wasemployed, a man named John
Dawes-Wargen to come and livewith the family and to teach
Edward's son Edward and JohnDawes-Wargen unbeknown to anyone
was carrying tuberculosis whenhe came into the house. And so
(28:27):
very sadly, within just a coupleof months he had died. And then
before not too long, Catherine,who was Edward Jenner's wife,
had also succumbed totuberculosis. And then Edward,
Edward Jenner's eldest son hadalso died of tuberculosis. And
it's one of the huge tragediesin Jenner's life and I think it
(28:48):
caused him to withdraw fromsociety. It led to him spending
most of his time in in Berkeleyfrom that point onwards and left
him with with a sense of sadnessthat really filled him for the
rest of his life. So the storyis that this ghost in the attic
is perhaps the spirit of JohnDawes-Wargen who is just really
unhappy with the fact that hebrought tuberculosis into the
(29:13):
house and it ultimatelycontributed to the the early
deaths of both Edward's sonEdward and Edwards wife,
Catherine. And then we also havea dog and the dog is is an
interesting one. So when themuseum first opened to the
public, the whole upstairs of itwas actually used as
accommodation for visitingmedics and other academic people
who were coming to live inEdward Jenner's house for a
(29:37):
couple of days. Yeah, come comevisit the museum stay in the
hotel upstairs. It's quite aquite good business model.
Really. We don't do it now.
Perhaps because of this. So oneperson staying recalled that
they were kept awake in thenight by the sound of a dog
scratching against the door, andevery time they got up to go and
(29:58):
let the dog in. There justwasn't anything there at all,
and they could hear this kind ofscampering noise scurrying away
down the down the stairs. Andthis happened so many times, and
they were absolutely convincedthat it was a dog. And then they
went down the next morning andspoke to the caretaker, and
said, well, you, it must havebeen your dog your dog was was
disturbing me all night. Youknow what, why? Why don't you
(30:22):
keep him, keep him in your roomat night, rather than let him
wander around the house. And thecaretaker said, I haven't got a
dog. I don't know what you'retalking about. And that story
has been told. But then a coupleof years ago, we had someone
doing some work in the house.
And they were just stood on thestaircase in the museum, and
felt something just just brushedpast their leg. And
(30:43):
instinctively, they reached outto pet a dog that they thought
was there. And then they turnedaround and there, there wasn't
anything and there wasn't anyonein the house, we were closed at
the time. But again, those thiskind of all those stories
combined, are things that welike to tell but which perhaps
our charity will be a bitannoyed with me for sharing in a
public forum. I've done it now.
Meg (31:08):
But it's like, like you said, it's interesting, because
it's like reflective of thehistory of storytelling within
the house generally, and thepeople who went and the stories
from them. I always think thisbecause I think it is a thing
that museums sometimes get a bitfunny about like, I know, we've
got some fascinating storiesthat visitors always love. But
we aren't always so keen to tellbecause some of that it's like
(31:30):
people have died. It's sad.
These are real people. So it'sit's a tricky one. But I think
whichever way you look at it isalways very interesting to hear.
And they are stories.
Owen (31:40):
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it kind of also reflects,
we have the challenge of beingan historic house, which loads
of people have lived in it wasbuilt 80 years before Jenner
moved there. And so it's gotthis kind of idea that it's been
inhabited for for 500, 600years. But we talk about Edward
Jenner, and people really wantto know, yeah, what were the
(32:03):
servants like, who was who wasliving there? What, what are the
stories that you got, and try topiece together the the
documentary evidence of thatwhen it's so tied up in this is
Dr. Jenner's house, this iswhere Edward Jenner lived and
that's all we can say about it.
Sara (32:19):
It's all been amazingly fascinating. I think the house
itself is so beautiful. And Ilove a historic house. So we're
only gutted that we couldn'tactually come and do this in
person. But as on when we can,we'll be on that train down to
Gloucester. And you are font ofknowledge.
Meg (32:36):
I think you're not... I think that you're a Wikipedia
page masquerading as a human.
Owen (32:43):
I'm putting that in my Twitter bio now.
Meg (32:46):
Brilliant. Okay, so Owen, you're a listener, so you should
know what questions we havecoming for you. So first one is
what's been your favourite dayat work?
Owen (32:56):
I forgot about this one but I have got an answer for it.
I was so psyched. I was soprepared for the takeaway
question that I forgot about thefavourite day at work question.
It's hard work. As I say it'shard work running an historic
house. And it's hard work,trying to find the funding to
keep it going. We don't get anyregular funding at all. There's
(33:17):
no government grants. So we'rereliant on everything that we do
ourselves. And a couple of yearsago, we were in a really, really
difficult financial situation,we'd had a couple of bad years
of visitor income, we've had acouple of serious maintenance
defects. And that was on theback of not being in the best
place financially to begin with.
And we needed to raise 20,000pounds by the end of the
(33:40):
financial year. And I just hadthis idea that maybe we should
kickstart our campaign byencouraging as many people as
possible to come to Dr. Jenner'shouse for a photograph in front
of of the house just to show thekind of strength of support for
Doctor Jenner's house. And so weput up posters around Berkeley,
we put it out on on Twitter andon social media, we wrote to the
(34:02):
papers, we tried to get as manypeople as possible to come down.
And then on the day, there wasjust that moment of no one's
going to come. We'd saideveryone was going to come at
11. Quarter to 11 there was noone there, it was chucking it
down with rain. And I thought,ah, this isn't gonna work at
all. Why on earth did I havethis idea? And then how I
(34:22):
remember it anyway, it probablywasn't quite so dramatic was
this, this sea of people justwalking up church lane towards
the museum, but gradually moreand more and more and more
people came. Someone phoned usup and said, oh, by the way,
I've got a Gloucester cow. Doyou want it to come along and
pretend to be Blossom? Yeah, soso we had this cow. We had a
(34:43):
couple of people who turned updressed as James Phipps and
Edward Jenner and Sarah Nelmsand just loads of people from
the community and we had...
about 300 people there. And itwas just fantastic and the photo
that was taken it's, it's onpretty much every page on our
website now because I love it somuch. It was just, it was that
(35:06):
moment where I think I thoughtwe've always known this place is
important as a staff team as avolunteer team. We are
absolutely passionate aboutEdward Jenner and promoting the
the role that the chantry and DrJenner's house has had in in
world history. I think it wasthat moment where we thought,
yeah, other people care aboutthis, too. This, this really is
important. I think it's been, itwas the catalyst for a
(35:30):
significant amount of of changeand growth. And it's just a
change in strategy in theorganisation. And the next year,
we went to National LotteryHeritage Fund, we used the photo
as evidence in our applicationto Heritage Fund for a grant to
help us work on a on a newstrategy for the museum. And so
(35:51):
coming into the start of lastyear, pandemic aside, we were in
the process of kind ofregrouping and growing as an
organisation. And hopefully wecan continue to do that in this
year and in the coming years,because we really want to ensure
that we're not in thatsituation, again, where we're in
such financial difficulty thatwe've got to go out pleaing for
people to come and support us.
But yeah, that the memories ofthat day, I just think the days
(36:13):
when I think no one really caresabout this. You know, you have
days where no one's replying toyour emails, and you're not
getting any likes on Twitter oryour things like that. And I
always go back to, to that dayand to yeah, the memories of
that day, and just just theconversations as well. People
telling us why Dr. Jenner'shouse was important to them.
(36:34):
Really good day.
Meg (36:37):
God, I feel like crying.
That's so lovely.
Sara (36:39):
It makes your heart sing doesn't it?
Meg (36:40):
I know it feels like that's, that's like the end of a
film.
Owen (36:44):
Yeah, well, I think it's cinematic in my head as well, as
I say all these people marchingup church lane coming towards
through the fog through themist, singing about Edward
Jenner.
Sara (36:54):
That is wonderful. Maybe it'll happen again when we're
all allowed to reopen. But yeah,I think as a side note, just to
add to that, I think it'sobviously been massively
devastating on a lot ofdifferent levels. But it's also
forced the sector to do a bit ofa hard think about how we do
things. And I think a lot ofgood's gonna come out of it as
well. I'm positive, I'm hopeful.
But anyway, moving, movingswiftly on. We have a
(37:15):
penultimate double edgedquestion, which is all about
takeaways. And first off, if youcould sum up a bit of a takeaway
for our listeners, abouteverything that we've talked
about today, please.
Meg (37:27):
She doesn't normally say please, by the way.
Sara (37:29):
I felt like I need to be very polite.
Owen (37:32):
It disarmed me. Thank you.
I think probably just that weneed small museums, we need
little stories, we need storiesthat have shaped the world in
many, many different ways. And Ithink it's just wonderful. You
know, Jenner is part of this,this huge story that goes from
the unnamed inoculators whofirst started trying to work out
(37:56):
how to prevent smallpox withwith smallpox, all the way up to
the people working on the OxfordAstraZeneca vaccine. Now, the
people working on the Pfizerbiontech vaccine, just there's a
whole history of all of thesepeople working on on vaccine
development, people who areinvolved in the roll out people
who are involved in arrangingfor, you know, encouraging
(38:19):
people to take it, just sharingpositive messages. And so I
think it's just amazing thatthrough one house here in the
middle of the Gloucestershirecountryside, it's amazing that
that story can be told. And longmay continue.
Sara (38:37):
Absolutely hear, hear, hear. So you know, what's coming
up next. And this is gettingmore and more interesting each
episode that we do, and givingus a lot of literal food for
thought. So what's your actualfavourite literal takeaway?
Owen (38:53):
Yeah. So it's really difficult because I was
listening back to... I wantedto... preparing for this because
this is the one question thatI've been really terrified by.
Meg (39:03):
It's really hard, isn't it?
Owen (39:04):
Because we don't have that much in the way of takeaways in
in Berkeley. And I was listeningback and everyone on on the pod
before has said, Oh, yeah, it'sthis particular place, and I
have this particular thing. Ijust like fish and chips.
Meg (39:19):
Oh, my God. I literally was sitting here thinking I bet he's
gonna choose fish and chips. Idon't know what you give off
fish and chip energy Owen.
Sara (39:26):
Oh, yeah.
Owen (39:27):
I don't know if that's a compliment or not.
Meg (39:29):
Absolutely it is.
Owen (39:30):
Fish and Chips by the seaside. It's what I can't wait
for when, when this is all over.
But as a temporary thing. We'vegot a circus that operates
around this part ofGloucestershire called Gifford
circus. It's absolutelyfantastic. It's really
wonderful. To try and keep theirincome going during the pandemic
and during the first lockdown,they started doing takeaway of
(39:54):
not of circus but they have anonsite restaurant - it's a very
very fancy circus but...
Sara (40:02):
I was going to say, what circus does takeaway? I'm
thinking like candy floss.
Owen (40:06):
Yeah no, no... So I went twice because I enjoyed it so
much. It's like beef rib withdates and hazelnuts with
beetroot gratin, and a stickytoffee pudding type thing for
dessert. And then the next timewas Ethiopian night so they had
(40:26):
various different Ethiopianlentil and lamb and vegetable
stews, and then the most divinecoffee and chocolate cake that I
I'm very tempted every time Ithink about that, I think I
gotta have to email them to askfor the recipe because it's just
probably one of the best thingsI've ever eaten. So Gifford
Circus have been a very veryworthy lockdown takeaway and
(40:48):
it's been fantastic to tryand... I convinced myself that
it's a good thing because it'sit's it's helping a business in
lockdown, but really, I justlike the food but also can't
wait for fish and chips again.
Meg (40:58):
And just on fish and chips.
Owen I need I need some more. Ineed you to tell me what you
like are you mushy peas? Are youcurry sauce? What's like...
because up here, people...
Sara (41:09):
Gravy?
Meg (41:09):
Yeah, see gravy. No no no.
I'm from down south. And when Icame up here, I'd never heard of
scraps. And I don't know whetherthat's like a good... Like,
what's the thing down there?
Owen (41:20):
Yeah, when I was at York, some friends of mine, we set up
a student society called chipsoc. And yeah, I definitely give
off fish and chip vibes don't I?
So we set up this society calledchip Soc. I think because we
thought maybe the Student Unionwould pay us to go and eat fish
and chips every week, but theyweren't happy to fund it for
(41:41):
some reason. So we met everyFriday and tried to go to every
single fish and chip shop inYork over the course of our
degree. And there's a lot offish and chip shops in York. And
yeah, we had a lot ofexperiences and tried a lot of
things I mean so because yeahcuz I think in Hull people are
really into into chip spice. Andso tried chip spice - not for me
(42:06):
really but scraps are fantastic.
I like mushy peas as well. IfI'm up north, it's it's Haddock,
chips, mushy peas, scraps. Andif I'm down here, it's Cod,
chips, mushy peas and havequizzical look when I ask for
scraps.
Meg (42:27):
Brilliant. Do you know I've recently changed my... Because I
used to be like Haddock andchips and mushy peas. Scraps
sometimes, but they're a littlebit too much for me sometimes.
But recently, I've changed goneso rogue and now I'm just fish
butty. I'm just straight up,fish butty bit of ketchup
inside, sometimes a bit like alayer of mushy peas spread on
the bottom. But...
Owen (42:47):
Have you ever had a Sheffield fish cake? They've got
like a layer of potato then thelayer of fish then another layer
of potato and it's all battered.
Sara (42:55):
I do love a fish cake, our local fish and chip shop which
is just at the end of the road,the lady who did all of the like
home cooked bits she made poshfish cakes. And it was the
secret thing on the recipe, onlike the menu, which wasn't a
secret but it was to me becauseno one knew how good it was. No
one appreciated how amazing itwas to the point where we'd go
(43:17):
in and she just she just knewlike, we didn't get fish and
chips all the time. But yeah, itwas a big parsely fish cake. And
now it's no longer there. Sosad.
Meg (43:27):
Owen, I'm going to call this now. I think that me and
you should start a podcast aboutfish and chips. Sara you're not
invited, sorry.
Sara (43:33):
Thanks, thanks.
Meg (43:36):
Brilliant. Okay, we have literally been recording for
like an hour and 15 minutes.
This is gonna be so hellish toedit.
Owen (43:44):
Sorry!
Meg (43:44):
No it's ok it's been lovely talking to you Owen, thank you
so much for coming on.
Owen (43:49):
Thank you for inviting me.
Meg (43:51):
Iya.
Sara (43:52):
Iya what you having.
Meg (43:54):
Digestive.
Sara (43:55):
Oh, nice. I just had a little chocolate chip muffin.
Meg (43:58):
Oh, yeah. I've just had the most... In the time, in between
the time it's taken for us tointerview Owen my sister got
engaged. And more importantly, Idid a boxercise youtube video.
Sara (44:10):
Wow.
Meg (44:11):
Yeah, but afterwards, I was sitting there and I stood up and
mate. I have done some bits tomy back. Can you see that there?
Hot water bottle. So I'm sathere with hot water bottle, I've
been watching a YouTube videoabout how to tell if it's
muscular or a pinched nerve bythese two guys from America from
like the 90s called like Dan andBob. They're like really old
(44:31):
men. And I've got like a littlebit of water with a little bit
pinch of salt in. My back feelslike snakes.
Sara (44:40):
Feels like snakes? It's quite a busy couple of hours for
you. I can't say I've doneanything nearly as exciting. The
only other thing that's happenedis we probably need a new boiler
so that's good.
Meg (44:50):
Oh, mate.
Sara (44:51):
I don't want it there. I wanted it where it is it's out
the way.
Meg (44:55):
Well, we've both had a bloody nightmare haven't we
mate. On the bright side we didhave a lovely morning talking to
Owen.
Sara (45:01):
We did have a lovely morning talking to Owen. It was
incredibly insightful. And Idon't think I'll ever have that
much knowledge in my head.
Meg (45:08):
Yeah, I'm the same. I don't think I've ever spoken to
someone or like been part of aconversation with anyone ever in
my life that has been - thatsounds dramatic - I actually do
mean this like, it was like hewas reading off of... off of
something, but he literallywasn't.
Sara (45:23):
Off of a story book.
Meg (45:25):
And also really nice to meet him actually, finally.
Sara (45:28):
Yeah, shame about the blanket fort but oh well.
Meg (45:30):
I need to send him a picture of my house. Actually.
That's kind of weird, isn't it?
I met you. I met you today. Letme show you my house. Anyway,
what was your favourite learn?
You like the cow? I know you do.
Blossom.
Sara (45:41):
Oh, I do love. I do love the cow. I was a bit sad that
she's kind of everywhere. But Isuppose that was inevitable. And
I quite liked the fact... I sayquite like the fact. It's kind
of comforting to know that therewere a lot of vaccine naysayers
back in back in them days. Andthe way that it was kind of
dealt with was it was like,well, we're not going to talk to
(46:01):
you. Because what's the point?
There's no time we need to justcrack on with this. I think
that's really a really goodattitude. And he just kind of
went you know what, keeping thispositive. I'm only going to deal
with the people that want to bepart of this. And if you don't
want to, if you don't want to bepart of it, that's okay. You
know, like, you you do whateveryou want. That was my thing. It
was kind of that was kind ofgeneric, but what was your best
(46:22):
learn? Apart from ghosts?
Meg (46:26):
Oh, yeah. I did wonder how ghosts was going to go down
because as Owen was talking, Iwas like, God, everything he's
saying is just reallyintelligent. I know that I'm
about to ask him about ghosts. Idon't know how he's gonna take
it. The ghosts was good. Butwell, my favourite learn to be
fair was the grapes.
Sara (46:44):
I knew you'd... you love grapes. Because you've got a
grapevine, you think you're Mrs.
Wine.
Meg (46:51):
But actually to be to be fair, to be fair to him, my
favourite part of that wasactually him telling us about
that time when all those peoplecame.
Sara (46:59):
Yeah I know that was lovely.
Meg (47:01):
That was really sweet.
Sara (47:02):
It made my heart swell up a little.
Meg (47:04):
I just think it's so easy.
When you're listening to likethe radio, and you're reading
newspapers, a lot of the thingsabout museums are to do with the
big huge stories involving likenational museums and bigger
museum services. And I honestlyjust think if you live in a
little village or a little town,or you know of a small museum,
go, literally go because yourmoney, like the money that
(47:27):
you're paying, literally willsave it. Just go get a cup of
tea, buy a magnet to give toyour nan.
Sara (47:36):
Have a chat.
Meg (47:38):
Have a chat yeah, have a chat. And just have a lovely
time and save people's jobs andmuseums. I wish I could drop
this mic without it making areally annoying noise.
Sara (47:50):
Just like boing. I think it is. It is a big thing,
though. And like we totally takeit for granted that they're just
there and it's something that wehave and like I don't know, it's
such a massive part of ourculture. Important isn't it.
Meg (48:05):
I love a little museum. I'm not sure if I said this on the
pod before, but one of my bestmuseums I've ever been in is the
museum in Mevagissy which islike this tiny little fishing
village in Cornwall and it'sjust so good. It's like it
converted fisherman's hut. Justthink Yeah, small museums. Well
done.
Sara (48:22):
Good excellent. Well done.
Meg (48:23):
Go on, then you can do this bit.
Sara (48:25):
We have to do some thanks no. Come on. Sara. I think about
it. Right.
Meg (48:30):
You sound how my back feels.
Sara (48:32):
Yeah, exacerbated with being alive. Yeah, so a couple
of thank yous, Tim Bentley forour theme tune, which I haven't
heard for ages. Because I alwayslistened to the edits without
music. So might treat myself tothat. And, and then Alex Finney.
For our delicious cover artwork,look at your face. You're like,
What is she gonna say next? Whatis she gonna come out with?
Meg (48:55):
It's like, it's like in that in that episode when he
says, Can you tell us what yourfavourite takeaway is? Please?
And the please, just really, itwas just crazy. Go on.
Sara (49:05):
In other news, please subscribe. And leave us a review
because it really helps ourratings. And it means that we
can carry on doing this.
Meg (49:11):
By the way, actually, if you're listening to this right
now, if you're hearing thisactual bit that are saying, it
meant that you've made it allthe way through, which might
mean that you really enjoythese. And there is a chance
that you will do as we say.
Sara (49:26):
Or you could have already done that and you're sick of us
saying it.
Meg (49:28):
Oh, yeah, we do really need them though. We're a bit...
despacito to see. But...
Sara (49:37):
So embarassing.
Meg (49:38):
I've gone red. I've actually gone red. Brilliant.
Sara (49:43):
You can download transcripts off the website, if
reading's your thing. And alsoyou follow us on social media
@MuseumMeg and @Saralmerrit and@LeedsMuseums and galleries.
Meg (49:56):
Great, right. That's it.
That's all folks. See you nexttime.
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