May 28, 2021 • 43 mins
Magna Carta! Jay Z's 12th studio album and the medieval cornerstone of modern democracy.
In this episode, we discuss both with Digital Engagement Officer Steven Franklin off of Egham Museum, Bradford Museums & Galleries and now the National Archives. Find out from someone other than Terry Jones why King John was so big and so bad, and why him needing a poo meant bad news for his Crown Jewels.
We also cover Runnymede - it's a floodplain, guys! - , Salisbury Cathedral and the garlic and herb dip from Dominos.
You know the one.
Listen, subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and all the usual podcast suspects.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Meg (00:00):
Look, at you wolfing down an egg sam. Have you had a right
(00:02):
day?
Sara (00:03):
Yes, it was chucking it down. I've just been out and
walked the dog and it's chuckingit down. So, now I have soggy
hair.
Meg (00:10):
Also, can you see my hair like this? I put it down there
because to hide that I've gotbeans. I spilled my beans.
Hello, and welcome to theMuseums N'That podcast where
each episode we have a chinwagand serve you the steaming hot
tea on the things that museumpeople love the most. We're your
hosts Meg and Sara from LeedsMuseums and Galleries. And we
(00:30):
get to know the people behindthe objects by asking them the
questions that you really wantto know.
Sara (00:49):
How are you, you alright?
Mmm. yep yep yep. All, good.
Fine. How are you?
Meg (00:54):
Good can you rate the sandwich out of 10?
Sara (00:55):
Do you know what, I love an egg and cress sandwich so...
8.
Meg (00:59):
If you could have one sandwich for the rest of your
life? Would it be egg and cress?
Sara (01:02):
Probably yeah.
Meg (01:03):
It's not very sociable though, is it anyway?
Sara (01:06):
What's yours?
Meg (01:07):
Um, I think for me, it's cheese and coleslaw.
Sara (01:10):
Oh, nice. Well, you know, my dirty sandwich choice is
cheese and onion.
Meg (01:15):
And we always get that we're hungover don't we. Which
by the way, I am a little bittoday tiny bit, because I
haven't drunk in ages. And now Ijust have like a glass and I'm
tipsy. Basically, I was just alittle bit nervous about the
fact that for this episode, Iliterally know nothing. And I
was like, well have a glass ofwine. And my prep was literally
(01:35):
just watching Robin Hood, youknow, like the 2010 film with
Russell Crowe.
Sara (01:39):
Oh, wait, that was interesting that you went for
that one because I would havegone for the Disney version.
Meg (01:44):
Yeah, I know. But then I was like Russell Crowe. Mark
Gatiss, is in it? I just feltlike it was more of an event. Go
on. Tell me about your week,even though we recorded like two
days ago. So what's reallyhappened since then?
Sara (01:55):
Work wise it's just been quite busy. But then you know,
can't grumble 'cause I'd ratherhave things to do. Made like the
same dinner twice on the basisthat both of them were round. So
one of them was a frittata andthe other one was pie. Yeah,
same thing. Distinctly fine, Ithink was probably the response
on that one. How about you?
Meg (02:15):
I've just been editing us.
And honestly, the only thingthat's happened that is
different to me is myembarrassing day yesterday, but
I don't know if I want to tellthe whole museum sector about
that.
Sara (02:25):
Which part like the part where you have to pee into your
favourite Tupperware or the partwhere the Tupperware with your
own pee in it spilt in thedoctor's surgery?
Meg (02:33):
Yes. Yeah.
Sara (02:36):
Does that about sum that up?
Meg (02:37):
Oh, yeah, pretty much.
Yeah. Do you know what maybe, doyou know what somewhere, someone
might be anxious about this, soit might make me feel better
because literally nothing canhappen. This is a story. So my
doctor surgery, has got this new
Sara (02:50):
Lots of things learnt though I think from that. One,
system where you like loginonline, ask my GP and it's like
a Skype chat. You just send themlike an instant message and they
pop your message back, tell youwhat you need to do. My GP was
like drop off a urine sample andwe'll call you back later with
the results and then she closedthe chat. And so I was like, how
do I do that? I literally... doi do it here in a... what do I
(03:14):
do it in? Do I go to the surgerybut they've got like Coronavirus
restrictions like do I do itthere. So anyway, message Sara,
obviously asking what to do andhelp me with my life. I honestly
messaged like three differentpeople rang Rebecca Machin
literally was like, what do Iwee in I don't understand.
Anyway, so I went withTupperware. My favourite one as
(03:36):
well, it's what I have myovernight oats in. Not anymore.
Did a wee, as you do, walk up tothe doctor surgery and I'm so
anxious. Like, my worst thing isprotocol and not really knowing
the system. So anyway, I get tothe doctor surgery and there's a
like a buzzer and went indropped off. It was fine. Start
walking home and feelingabsolutely like yes smashed it.
(03:58):
Like didn't need to be anxious.
Halfway home. I get a call fromthe doctors. And I'm like oh my
god, that was quick. That wasliterally so quick. The poor
receptionist on the end of thephone is like yeah, and your
Tupperware leaked. So we needyou to come back to the surgery
and do a wee here. Died 1000times and turn around go back
in. And when I press theintercom buzzer I was like it's,
(04:19):
it's it's Megan Jones. And thewoman on the other of the other
end was like, yeaaahhh. Butanyway, it was just the worst
possible thing that could happenbut it's a good story.
your favourite tupperware? Letdown.
Meg (04:36):
Guys literally do not wee in your favourite tupperware.
Sara (04:39):
Disappointing on all levels, I think.
Meg (04:41):
Yeah. But you know what, it's a nice little tale for not
being anxious and things thatyou need to be anxious about
even when they do happen. It'snot that bad. Really?
Sara (04:50):
No, and actually, wee is very clever. It tells you a lot
of things. So it's very good toget it checked if you have any
worries.
Meg (04:57):
Isn't it? Moving on to museums. Sara, who have we got
on today?
Sara (05:02):
Oh my God, we have Steven off of Egham. You'll know him if
you follow sort of museum socialmedia and things. He's behind
Egham Museum, and he's come totalk to us today though about
something slightly different,which is another topic that
Meg's thrown a bit of acurveball at me for because
Shakespeare scares me a littlebit. And this also scares me but
(05:22):
more because I know a lot lessabout it.
Meg (05:25):
I think that works in our favour, though. Like, I feel
more hilariously in the darkabout this one.
Sara (05:31):
Yeah, It could go any...
and all ways?
Meg (05:34):
Also, when I emailed Steven to ask him to come on the pod, I
spelt it wrong. Spelt MagnaCarta wrong. So literally failed
at the first hurdle.
Sara (05:43):
I noticed. Because we do have... despite all obvious
signs, we do have a slight bitof organisation. Meg's done it
all. But you've asked a questionin here and you've managed to
spell it wrong again.
Meg (05:55):
Oh, my God, what where? Oh my god, the first question I can
see it on the sheet. Do you knowwhat I had a hard day yesterday
Sara ok.
Sara (06:04):
Probably best let him in.
So here is Steven off of Egham.
Also off of the Magna Carta.
spelt c-a-r-t-e-r, according toMeg.... 's episode, enjoy.
Meg (06:20):
I'm really glad that you actually couldn't hear us then
because I did this reallyembarrassing thing when you
first came in where I was like'eyyyy' and it was just really
cringe. But now I've just doneit again.
Steven (06:29):
Commitment to the cringe is strong.
Meg (06:32):
Brilliant. Steven, how are you? Are you alright?
Steven (06:34):
Yeah not too bad. Bit tired. Otherwise alright.
Plodding on.
Sara (06:43):
(laughing) So nonchalent! I didn't expect you to just be
like 'yeah' but you know what, Ikind of appreciate it. Because
every time I get an email, it'slike, I hope this finds you
well. You don't? Yeah. So noneof us care.
Meg (06:53):
Like literally no one's well, who is being found well
and where are they? Can I jointhem?
Steven (06:57):
It is true. That is actually very true. Yeah. The
over elaborate kind ofpositivity on Twitter and other
social media is beginning to youknow, take it take its toll.
Sara (07:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Meg (07:09):
Also, do you have a whiteboard in your house Steven,
or are you in a museum?
Steven (07:14):
I'm currently in the lovely confines of museum.
Sara (07:16):
The whiteboard wasn't the first thing I would query about
someone's house. Why do you haveso many files in your house?
Meg (07:23):
Okay, so you said you're in a museum, but can you please say
who you are and what you do forthe benefit of our lovely
listeners?
Steven (07:31):
Hi, I'm Steven Franklin.
Some call me Dr. StevenFranklin. But I don't profess
that anyone needs to use myacademic title. I've left those
dark days behind me and I'veescaped to the comforting
confines and surrounds ofdigital engagement, where you
will find me tweeting my bestlife from Egham Museum, and also
simultaneously Bradford Museumsand Galleries. So yeah, that's
(07:53):
me. That's what I do. PhD andarea of expertise is on Magna
Carta, which is convenient forthis episode. And also
convenient for my work at Eghambecause Egham has quite a close
connection to good old MagnaCarta and the days of 1215. What
a riot they were.
Meg (08:15):
Brilliant. And also, I don't know why I've started
doing this thing where I'mfinger pointing every time you
say something.
Sara (08:19):
You've got very... like, Happy Days for this episode.
'Eyyy' and lots of pointing withyour thumb up.
Meg (08:28):
I don't know why I feel like I'm delirious. And also, I
feel really bad that you justsaid that you've left the dark
days of your PhD behind becausewe're dragging them back out
again for this aren't we.
Steven (08:36):
They're not that dark.
Meg (08:37):
Also, is it the Magna Carta, or just Magna Carta
because Magna Carta sounds wrongand like it needs it.
Steven (08:43):
Yeah. So normally it's just Magna Carta, although in
instances yeah, you would saythe Magna Carta, if you're
starting a sentence forinstance. The Magna Carta was
sealed in 1215 would be anappropriate time to put the in
front of Magna Carta, butgenerally...
Sara (08:57):
Starting an episode with grammar. (Laughing)
Steven (09:00):
Mate. Mate the grammar nazis out there are going to
love this. Yeah, normally justMagna Carta, don't ask me why
don't actually know to behonest. Probably something about
the Latin.
Meg (09:08):
Is it Latin.
Steven (09:09):
So Magna Carta in Latin means roughly Great Charter.
Sara (09:13):
Guarantee millions of people know this, but just the
boldness. It's a great charter.
Steven (09:20):
It's a great charter.
It's the great charter ofliberties, to be precise, but
that that kind of gets droppedand just becomes Magna Carta.
Meg (09:28):
I feel like we're gonna get into this about like, what it
is, but isn't the main thing...
The start of laws, right? Andlike the rights of men, but why?
Steven's like no what are youtalking about.
Sara (09:40):
His face is like, oh my God.
Meg (09:42):
Stressed out. But. What confused me about it being in
Latin. Did everyone in Englandknow how to speak Latin?
Steven (09:49):
No. So Latin is used as kind of like the authoritative
language, you know, in reality,they're just speaking English.
You know, probably by 1200there's a little bit of French
influence coming into thelanguage but you know Latin's
really only preserved andreserved for legal and important
documents and religious liturgy,to be honest, they're not living
(10:13):
their best Roman life.
Meg (10:14):
So why don't they want everyone to know what it says?
Like, isn't it important forthose documents to have for
everyone to be able to read themand understand them?
Steven (10:22):
Well, I mean, I suppose it really depends whether you
believe that Magna Carta wasmeant for all men in 1215.
There's a little bit ofcontention around this point.
For instance, Magna Carta doesrefer to free men, but free men
in 1215 is a quite a spuriousterm. And even academics kind of
are very divided as to how manypeople in England at this time
(10:46):
are considered free men, maybe40% of the population are free
men. So no, Magna Cartaprobably, well, definitely
actually does not apply to allmen into all 15. And therefore,
it's not really necessary thateveryone knows its contents. And
then there's another line ofargument, sorry, this is going
to get awfully dry, and pleaseshut me down when I've rambled
(11:08):
on for too long. But you know,the other the other side of the
coin is actually that the baronswere holding King John at
Runnymede to ransom and accountin a very selfish kind of act to
basically ensure that all of thenaughty things that he's done
and privileges that he strippedaway from them were restored.
Sara (11:27):
King John was like, he was totally tit for tat, though,
wasn't it? He was... that washis gig. So kind of made sense
that if he, if he, as King ofthe land had that sort of
attitude, what did he expectfrom his barons and all these
other lads? Like, that's justwhat's going to happen? Isn't
it? So kind of on his own headto be it?
Steven (11:44):
You know, real talk here? He probably was, he was an
awful man.
Meg (11:49):
Why?
Steven (11:50):
Why was he an awful man?
Meg (11:51):
Yeah. Right. Basically, me and Sara to, like, revise for
this, we watched this, like,BBC, or what was it on the
British Library? Yeah, yeah.
animation. Where...
Steven (12:04):
Was it with the Monty Python narrator by any chance?
Sara (12:07):
Yeah.
Meg (12:08):
Yeah. And then last night, I had a few glasses of wine and
watched Robin Hood. So that'sliterally the basis that we're
working on here. So yeah, KingJohn. Bad.
Steven (12:17):
Discuss. Yep. I think Disney really kind of
caricatured him quite right. Inthat kind of sucking the thumb,
Lion, you know, and in someways, you could say he's got
serious Daddy issues.
Meg (12:30):
Same.
Steven (12:30):
His dad is quite successful. (laughing) Yep,
serious... That's probably goingto be another edit point.
Sara (12:38):
You don't know what we talked about in the intro.
Meg (12:40):
Yeah, God.
Steven (12:43):
That's a shame. But yeah, so he he comes from a very
successful family, thePlantagenets. His dad is a very
strong monarch, very strongleader, very successful warrior.
His brother, Richard the First,literally goes on crusade
absolutely smashes it. John, onthe other hand, doesn't kind of
live up to this reputation. Heis rubbish in battle. He loses
(13:04):
territory in France, quickerthan you spend money in
Wetherspoons. He loses all theterritory in France, and he
doesn't have a good time doingit. He gets into a dispute with
the Pope quite early on in hisreign, the Pope bans the
practice and preaching ofreligion in England for eight
years. And so people are a bitannoyed about that as well,
(13:26):
because they're very religiousin the 1200s.
Meg (13:29):
Why would the Pope want that though? Surely the Pope
wants everyone to be religious.
Steven (13:33):
He only wants the right people to be religious, doesn't
he? Like he doesn't want naughtypeople? That is the ultimate
telling off.
Sara (13:39):
How did they even police that? I could go and have a
little prayer now, no-one wouldknow.
Steven (13:44):
You probably could. And to be honest, probably people
did but like officialobservances at church, burying
of the dead, completely banned,couldn't do it, not allowed.
What else did he do? He had apenchant for taking mistresses
of his barons, no problem, justyou know, go off have an affair.
Meg (14:03):
Lad.
Steven (14:03):
Well, yes. I mean, we could say that, we could also
kind of question his moralprinciples. (laughing) Also
didn't have any issues with youknow, killing relatives. Killed
some of his nephews, bit likeRichard the Third. No problem
with that. Just a generallyconniving backstabbing group
basically.
Meg (14:23):
In the animation that we watched. Terry Jones was like,
he pulled the beards off theIrish chiefs. I was like Terry
Jones, what are you saying?
Steven (14:33):
To be honest, you've put me on the spot here Meg. You
said I didn't need to do anyhomework.
Meg (14:37):
I didn't put you on the spot. Terry Jones put you on the
spot.
Steven (14:40):
Big bad TJ put me on the spot here and he's literally
called my bluff. That's aquestion I didn't expect.
Curveball.
Meg (14:50):
That's fine. We can just say that he did and that's fine.
He literally pulled at theirbeards.
Steven (14:56):
Well, I think the beauty of these types of podcasts is
that we're not always here toprovide the answer. People can
go away do their own research,and this would be a good avenue
in which we can encourage that.
Sara (15:06):
Yeah, absolutely. So since we've figured out that he pulled
beards off of Irish chiefs, abit more of a serious question,
I suppose, in terms of like, hestarted imposing really heavy
taxes on his barons. So how isthat different from how we do it
today?
Meg (15:22):
So sorry, as well, literally what is a Baron?
Steven (15:25):
A Baron I think would be large land kind of aristocracy
of the 1200s would be probablythe quickest and simplest way.
Large, wealthy landowner, whocollects money from people that
lives on his land, has a titlepledges allegiance to the King.
That's kind of a very, verybrief and not very technical
(15:47):
description of a Baron. But thatkind of sets the scene. Like
taxation now, is kind ofregulated, or should be. No PAYE
system in 1215. Big bad KingJohn turns around and says,
look, I think you owe me this.
If you don't give me this, thenyou know, I'm going to steal
your family, keep them hostage,or I'll just strip you of your
title, or I'll kill you.
Sara (16:10):
Quite big isn't it I suppose. Quite a big difference.
Meg (16:12):
Last night, when I was watching the film, I watched the
Russell Crowe one.
Steven (16:16):
Oh what a great film that is.
Meg (16:18):
Oh my god, so good. And I wrote down some notes of things.
And one of them was barons,rings, do they still exist? I
wrote some other humdingers aswell. So basically, in the film,
there's loads of barons and theyall wear these like signet rings
or something. Or like, if youwere like the noblemen or like
(16:38):
the Knights like Russell Croweis wearing a ring. And I'm just
thinking about museums and likewhat we have, or like, what
still exists from that timeperiod. And like from the like,
setup of Magna Carta. Like, whatdo we still have? Do we still
have things like those rings? Orlike, do we have any belongings
of like the barons? Who were thekey players?
Steven (17:00):
I'm gonna say yes, because undoubtedly, there will
be ephemera associated to thevarious barons distributed
around the lands and variouscastles and museums. Interesting
you say that. Most people wouldhave, you know, obviously asked
any copies of Magna Cartasurviving. You're asking about
the barons... (laughing)
Meg (17:18):
No, I'm gonna get there.
Don't worry. I'm gonna go there.
Steven (17:20):
Cool. Cool. Cool.
excellent.
Meg (17:22):
Apart from... from Magna Carta... Oh god it's really hard
not to put a 'the' in front ofit. Um, what's your favourite
Medieval thing that you've everseen in a museum?
Steven (17:32):
Oh, I'm a sucker for, you know, armour. So any armour?
That's such a boring answer.
Isn't that?
Meg (17:39):
No, it's not.
Steven (17:40):
I could have said a lovely illuminated manuscript.
But instead I said armour.
Meg (17:45):
Steven you should come to Leeds we've got literally the
Royal Armouries.
Steven (17:48):
Yeah you do, that's true.
Meg (17:49):
Sorry, back to the reason you're on this literal podcast
to talk about Magna Carta.
Firstly, can you explain morecoherently than I did what it
actually is, and then I want totalk about the surviving copies.
Steven (18:02):
Okay, so Magna Carta is a medieval charter, A3 in size,
roughly, 4000 words of Latinthere or thereabouts. Original
1215 copy (18:13):
63 clauses. Sealed at Runnymede on the 15 of June
1215. People believe that MagnaCarta was the start of trial by
jury. That's kind of not true.
There is a reference to it. Butactually, the law of trial by
jury is, you know, comes muchlater, most mediaeval historians
would look at Magna Carta,rather than as a statement of
(18:35):
principles of modern day law andrights as more of a very
practical document that dealtwith the issues of 1215 and 13th
century politics.
Sara (18:51):
Relative, isn't it. It's all relative.
Steven (18:54):
Relative, yeah, and part of the issue is that because
it's so old, and it's so famouspeople have kind of
reinterpreted it and read extrameaning into it, which has all
kind of kept it current andcontemporary, but therefore also
kind of twisted and changed itsmeaning. Who these days is
actually looking or even able toread the, you know, the actual
(19:17):
copies of the, the originalcharter.
Meg (19:19):
So where is it?
Steven (19:20):
So four surviving copies. Two in the British
Library, one in Salisburycathedral is regarded as the
best surviving copy of 1215 andthen Lincoln Cathedral also have
a 1215 iteration.
Meg (19:34):
Is it... is Salisbury... is it the one where the Russians
said...
Steven (19:39):
Yes, yes, that's the one from the Russian thing.
Meg (19:43):
Brilliant, they were really into the Magna Carta.
Steven (19:45):
They didn't even put that on their TripAdvisor review
though. I think they'd like saidsomething stupid about lovely
views from the top or something.
But that's again for anotherpodcast.
Meg (19:55):
So wait, which one is the actual one?
Steven (19:57):
Well, that's the thing.
And that's potentially why youcan't say the Magna Carta
because there was never just onein the first place. Nobody knows
which is the first, we suspectthere were more copies made in
1215. What we suspect happenedis that the charter that King
John agreed to in 1215 on the15th of June, is then hurriedly
copied out by scribes and thendistributed around the kingdom
(20:21):
to the various cathedrals. Sopeople can see what's gone down
in Runnymede. So the original,nobody even knows who wrote it.
Meg (20:30):
You'd be really mugged off if you were the one that wrote
it, and no one knew that you'dwritten it.
Steven (20:34):
What they forgot to do was put their signature at the
bottom to say, PS, it was me.
Sara (20:38):
I want to ask about Runnymede. It's such a fun name.
Why was it so important? Why didthey, you know, why there?
Steven (20:45):
So first and foremost, Runnymede is a water meadow
liable to flooding, which meansthat it's very hard to have a
battle on. So that is one reasonwhy Runnymede was chosen,
because they didn't want it toend in a battle. So a meeting
point where you can't fight is agood place as any. Another
(21:07):
reason - the barons took theCity of London meaning that John
at that stage was in WindsorCastle, and the barons had
advanced from London to Staines.
Runnymede is roughly halfwaybetween Staines and Windsor. So
it meant that King John couldget in his boat and take a
little trip down the river andget off at Runnymede to meet the
big bad barons. A more kind oflocal reason, potentially is
(21:30):
that Runnymede, apparently inAnglo Saxon means meeting place.
And so I think those are kind ofthe three main reasons why
Runnymede.
Meg (21:40):
I remember when I was younger, because I grew up in
Bracknell, and I went toRunnymede like quite a lot. And
my dad used to always talk aboutit. And I never understood it. I
never understood what theimportance of it was, as a kid
you're like, this is literallyjust a field and a man called
John signed some paper. Andyeah, it's so... it's such a
(22:02):
weird place like to think that'ssomething so big happened there.
Steven (22:06):
Yeah. Like I've really thought about this far too much
to be healthy. But it's a bitlike a battlefield in the sense
where something importanthappened here. But there is
nothing that survives from thattime that kind of says something
important happened here, whichis a bit strange when you think
about it.
Meg (22:26):
Have there been like archaeological digs and stuff to
try and get artefacts formuseums?
Steven (22:30):
So there's... they've not done any sort of digs on the
actual meadows. There have beensome done a little bit further
down the way that resulted inSaxon and Bronze Age artefacts
being found out of roughly thesame time that they'll have been
building the M25. So yeah, butthey've not really found or done
any digging for medieval. And Ithink that's really because
(22:52):
beyond the you know, the coupleof days where the meeting was
being had, nobody was reallythere.
Meg (22:58):
I'd love it if there was like, if they did some digging,
and just found like a littlenote that John like left, like,
Steven (23:05):
Like a massive x like, this is where it was sealed. And
I literally don't agree withthis.
I don't agree with this. And tobe fair, that is probably what
John thought because it was onlyeight weeks after that he, you
know, declared Magna Carta nulland void. And, you know, Civil
War recommenced. So, to be fair,he probably was a bit hacked
off.
Sara (23:24):
Yeah, but this is a sweeping statement, but it'll be
one of the most widely - apartfrom the Bible - widely known
documents, and certainly at thattime and distribution, it's not
like today, you know, you can'tjust fire it out over the
internet. But how did peopleeven know what the repercussions
of the law would be? Like ifthey didn't, I imagine there's
(23:46):
quite a lot of people thatcouldn't read and write then
they just they were always onthe losing foot weren't they.
Which is rubbish.
Steven (23:51):
It is pretty rubbish.
Very rubbish. I mean, it goesSteven Franklin, Magna Carta
PhD, pretty rubbish.
back to that kind of...
It is true. The amount of timesI wish I didn't have that as my
Twitter handle is just... it wasa good idea at the time, but now
I really wish I could change it.
Talk about pigeon holingyourself. Although yours is
(24:11):
MuseumMeg which is the same ideaisn't it. Yeah, I mean, as I
said earlier, whether youraverage Joe really gave a damn
is debatable. That is why theykind of sent it to all of the
major cathedrals and, and townsand cities to ensure that it was
read aloud. So people were awareof it, at least
Meg (24:31):
At the beginning, you said about how it's like connected to
Egham. And like you haveobviously work at Egham museum.
What's the connection there withthe museum and it?
Steven (24:40):
So we don't, unsurprisingly, don't have any
of the medieval kind of... wedon't have an original copy of
the charter. What we do have alot of is much later
Sara (24:51):
Do you have an I heart Magna Carta mug?
commemorative ephemera markingthe moment especially from the
turn of the 1900s to the presnt day. And in many ways the fac
that a world renowned event hapened a stone's throw away, has
ensured that Egham has remined a place of maybe int
(25:11):
rest is going too far but relvant. And, you know, with tou
ism and all those things,it's something that the local ar
a has played on. And it's nicto say, isn't it that we're t
e place that democracy was apparntly started. So yeah, in terms
f, in terms of what the museuhas, it's very much the ephem
(25:32):
ra of commemoration and fromhe last 100 years.
Steven (25:40):
No, we don't actually we don't. But we do have our museum
mugs, which as you can see, Irealise I'm on a podcast, which
means nobody at home canactually see this. But we have
museum mugs, where we havelovely artwork, where we've
duped the ceiling of Magna Cartato say that coffee tastes better
with friends and King John isseen sealing a charter that says
(26:03):
I must not drink tea, I must notdrink tea with the barons
holding coffee cups. There wego, you know, always an
opportunity for a plug.
Meg (26:12):
Brilliant. I feel like our... for any listeners. If
you're strolling past Egham, asyou should be, you should nip in
to Egham museum and pick up oneof those mugs. Then go to
Runnymede. Just like to pretendlike you're King John for a
little bit and then hop over toBracknell and go to Pizza Hut
and say hi to my mum. So Steven,can you tell us a bit more about
(26:36):
like, what's your PhD on? Like,what's your thing with it, that
you're interested in in yourresearch.
Steven (26:43):
So my research is particularly focused on the way
in which Magna Carta has beencommemorated at Runnymede. This
is where I'm going to sound sogeeky, apologies. But it is a
really like simple butinteresting question. Why does a
document sealed over 800 yearsago, continue to exert some form
(27:03):
of influence? Why are we stillinterested in it? You know, that
is bonkers.
Sara (27:07):
It's kind of blowing my mind. The first thing when I
told Luke that we were going todo something on the Magna Carta,
he was like, oh right, Jay Z'salbum.
Steven (27:17):
Yeah, exactly.
Sara (27:18):
So you know, not his best but...
Meg (27:21):
I wonder if Jay Z has been to Runnymede.
Steven (27:23):
No, he didn't. But he did go to Salisbury Cathedral.
Sara (27:25):
There we go.
Meg (27:26):
Did he actually?
Steven (27:27):
Yeah, he did a photo of like a massive publicity stunt
where there was a picture of himjust at the moment he released
his album standing next to theSalisbury Magna Carta.
Meg (27:35):
I think the thing that I find really hard to get my head
around, is the fact that it wasso long ago. And there's so
like, the fact that it's stillthere, that you're saying the
fact that it still exists, butlike, I feel like I just want
all the material things. I wantto go to museums and just see
all the bits around and likephysically seeing something just
brings it to life a little bitmore. So I feel like it's
(27:56):
frustrating to me that there'sno there's been no like digs at
Runnymede. Dig it up.
Sara (28:01):
If Runnymede is like, essentially, a floodplain there
might not be a lot there anyway,because it has so much water.
800 years of water is an awfullot.
Meg (28:11):
I know but then where's the stuff?
Steven (28:14):
Probably in the sea by now?
Sara (28:16):
Yeah, probably in the channel somewhere floating
around with all manner ofthings.
Steven (28:19):
It's probably gone back to France?
Sara (28:21):
Yeah.
Meg (28:22):
Also, King John.
Steven (28:25):
Yeah.
Meg (28:26):
Died a year later. Is that right?
Steven (28:27):
He did yeah. 1216.
Meg (28:29):
That's literally so annoying, isn't it? And like,
wouldn't you just be so muggedoff if you'd just done this
thing and then you died? And wasit? Did he die doing a poo?
Steven (28:36):
He did die of dysentery.
Whether he died in the kind ofthrows of a bowel movement? Not
quite sure. But definitelydysentery. And it was in the
wash. And that's where he losthis crown jewels.
Meg (28:49):
Hang on. What? He lost his crown jewels?
Steven (28:54):
Yeah. He lost his crown jewels in the wash.
Meg (28:57):
Right, sorry. Go on.
Steven (28:59):
Yeah, so he's on the like the Norfolk coast and then
well basically in amongst civilwar being chased around the
country by the barons? ClassicJohn, isn't it really? Yeah,
he's he's along the coast, he'sgot a little bit with of a
dickey tummy and yes, so all ofhis all of his treasure gets
washed out to sea.
Meg (29:16):
Hang on. So he's doing a poo in the sea, and then his
crown jewels...
Sara (29:20):
Pretty sure that's not what Steven just said.
Steven (29:23):
I mean, I can see why you've truncated the story to
come up with that revelatoryheadline. Whenever I think about
this, it's like, you've got allof the classic ingredients of a
really good story here. You'vegot a really evil monarch,
you've got the barons that arethe good coming to fight the
evil King John. You know, MagnaCarta prevails, the goodies win.
(29:48):
They you know, protect all ofour rights. You know, it's just
a just a nice romanticnarrative, isn't it that we can
all really get behind. Clauses39 and 40, the famous ones, to
no man will be denied to no manwhere we sell... the one that
sort of references, you know,ensuring that people would only
have a jury of their peers.
They're 39 and 40 in thecharter, which indicates that
(30:09):
actually, they're not veryimportant because they're just
smuggled in the middle. If it'simportant, you'd either put it
at the top or at the end,probably at the top. But you
know, those are the ones thathave survived. And it's because
of it's because they are so...
they're not exact, they're notprecise. They are more just
principles that we can all getbehind and support, that are
(30:31):
really open to interpretation.
You know, they're very powerful,sexy ideas that you can kind of
get behind caught you
Sara (30:38):
I find it fascinating.
It's an A3 document with 4000words on it.
Steven (30:42):
Oh, yeah, it's tiny.
It's incredibly small writing,and it's incredibly neat as
well. So the chances are...
Meg (30:50):
What were their pens like?
I wonder what the oldest pen is.
Sara (30:53):
Feathers.
Steven (30:55):
They're feathers.
They're not pens. They're notbiros.
Meg (30:58):
Yeah, but like...
Sara (30:59):
Gel pen.
Meg (31:00):
... writing equipment.
Steven (31:01):
It's not a glitter pen.
Meg (31:03):
I wish it was that cinnamon flavoured one that smelt really
good.
Steven (31:07):
Yeah. Oh, yeah. The mems.
Meg (31:12):
Brilliant. The only other things that I had on my list
were from when I watched thething yesterday, although you
literally don't have to answerany of these because I don't
even know what I really meant.
The other one was, where dofilmmakers get this stuff from?
My guess is history.
Steven (31:33):
The clue is very much in the title or in the word isn't
it? His story?
Meg (31:38):
Is Robin Hood real though actually. In fact, Sara. You're
from this part o't'world.
Sara (31:45):
Yeah, obviously real.
There's a statue of him atNottingham Castle so. Clearly
real. I never made theconnection. How come? You know
Nottingham? Were the ones thatwhen Christ we best create this
character, and we're going tonick the story of the Magna
Carta. It's all very confusing.
Meg (32:02):
Oh, yeah. This is a point actually. Is it like...
Steven (32:04):
Actually here's a fact bomb for you. So, the Sheriff of
Nottingham is referenced inMagna Carta. The Sheriff of
Nottingham in 1215 is a dudecalled Phillip Mark. Phillip
Mark is referenced in MagnaCarta, probably not the same
Disney interpretation, but he islike the Sheriff of Nottingham
(32:26):
is also a very naughty boy. Andin fact, Magna Carta is trying
to get rid of Phillip Mark getrid of the Sheriff of Nottingham
because the Sheriff ofNottingham as you can kind of
guessed by his name is aFrenchman. And these good old
English barons are a little bittired of John continually
promoting French aristocracy,French militia, and replacing
(32:47):
them with Frenchmen.
Sara (32:49):
That is fascinating and my favourite fact now. The more we
talk about it, the more I thinkit was definitely just a load of
guys sat around a table had hada few drinks, and just went
yeah, we don't like him. Yeah,yeah. And then just like point
29, this as well. And it wasjust like, the little things
they didn't want any more.
Steven (33:08):
But actually, was it because in like, in late 1214,
early 1215, there's a documentcalled the articles of the
barons, which is the prototypefor Magna Carta, which is
essentially a draft of all oftheir grievances. And so yeah,
they were, you know, they weredefinitely in a WhatsApp chat.
If it existed back then.
Meg (33:28):
Steven, now you're a listener. So you know, and you
I'm assuming you've prepared.
Steven (33:34):
I actually am a listener, and I actually forgot
all about this. I was too scaredabout what you were going to ask
me (laughing). I'm going to letyou down so hard here.
Meg (33:47):
No, absolutely not. You can't let yourself down more
than I've let myself down today.
Steven (33:52):
The best bit - I'm gonna have to out you here was when
you sent the first email askingif I'd be on the podcast, and
then sent a follow up emailsaying just realised I spelt
Magna Carta wrong. Great.
Sara (34:03):
She spelt it wrong in the notes here.
Meg (34:04):
Yeah. Yeah. I literally wanted to die. I was like, you
literally think that I'm thedumbest person this is so
stressful.
Sara (34:11):
She messaged me straight away and was like I spelt it
wrong. I spelt it wrong. I waslike, just reply and say you
spelt it wrong. But I did leaveit for a bit because I did think
it was hilarious.
Steven (34:20):
I'm really not even that precious. At the end of the day,
I knew what you meant, and I'msorry that I just publicly
humiliated you.
Meg (34:28):
Honestly just add it to the pile. Right Steven? What has
been your favourite day at work?
Steven (34:36):
My favourite day work is unfortunately sorry, all the
Bradford listeners, is an EghamMuseum day, but my favourite day
was the day in which our ChooseYour Own Adventure thread was
published, released. Seeing allof the kind of hard work that I
put into it and it get some formof traction was a good day. Was
(34:56):
a good day it was worth the hardwork and staying up late at
night doing it.
Meg (34:58):
Can you just give a tiny bit quick explanation of what
that was for our listeners.
Steven (35:03):
Yes. So very quickly in a minute we have Royal Holloway
it was founded in 1868. Roughly,as a women's only college. I
decided to do a Choose Your OwnAdventure thread on Twitter,
much like the books ofyesteryear, in which you were
one of the first students andyou needed to go through the day
without getting in trouble bythe principal. Do go to
(35:23):
@EghamMuseum, if you would liketo know more.
Sara (35:26):
And choose your own adventure.
Steven (35:28):
Oh, that was good.
Sara (35:30):
Thanks. Been practicing. I don't - I actually don't
practice anything because itgoes terribly if I'm scripted.
Meg (35:36):
Having said that Sara, this is now your bit.
Sara (35:39):
I'm not going to read it out. It's fine no, I know what
it is. And so the last questionis twofold. One, it's takeaway
related. But first of all, wehave to know what the big
takeaway for our listeners wouldbe from everything that we've
talked about today.
Steven (35:52):
Oh, wow. I mean, the problem is, there's been so many
factoids, isn't there?
Meg (35:58):
I love that you said factoids then. I don't know why
that just made me laugh quite alot. Factoid.
Steven (36:03):
Yeah, yeah. Bit pretentious isn't it. You know
what? I think the one takeawaythe one takeaway is, Magna Carta
was sealed at Runnymede becauseit was a place in which you
couldn't have a pitched or aplanned battle. There you go.
Meg (36:20):
I didn't know that. And I'm really glad that you told me
that because I always used towalk around it thinking why am I
here?
Steven (36:27):
To be fair, it's probably what John and the
barons were saying too.
Meg (36:31):
In a way I do think I am quite like King John. Anyway go
on Sara...
Sara (36:36):
Whoever was the location scout for that? Cracking job.
Well done.
Steven (36:40):
Yeah, but I don't imagine there were too many
amenities like in the local areaif if the current selection is
anything to go by. God blessthem right?
Meg (36:47):
It's alright because John doesn't mind having a wildy does
Steven (36:50):
No he doesn't (laughing). He'd just wander he.
down to the river. Hold my crownjewels for me. I've got work to
do.
Sara (37:05):
Let's talk about food.
What's your actual literal favourite takeaway?
Steven (37:09):
Ah, I'm gonna get so judged for this, because it's so
not classy. Like I've heard somereally good suggestions. And I'm
going to say that I am so basic.
Give me a pepperoni pizza fromDomino's.
Meg (37:23):
Yes, I respect that so much.
Sara (37:25):
Garlic and herb dip.
Steven (37:27):
Yes, there's something about the mixture of melted
cheese and processed meat withgarlic and herb dip that just
tickles my pickle.
Meg (37:37):
That is an unbelievable shout I really like that. My
only qualm with pepperoni is Ithink I like the really thin
pepperoni. So if I'm, if I'mgoing to get it, it's going to
be the Pizza Hut one where it'slike sometimes the edges of it
get a little bit burnt. But theDomino's one is just a little
tiny bit too thick. For me.
Sara (37:56):
It's a bit too 3D isn't it?
Steven (37:58):
And yeah, and to be honest, like the pizza hut
pepperoni is also very good. Andyou have the advantage of a
stuffed crust. Although Domino'ssometimes do the hot dog stuffed
crust. Now that is a gamechanger.
Sara (38:09):
Ohhh.
Meg (38:10):
Brilliant. Steven, thank you so much for coming on the
pod. You've been such awonderful guest.
Steven (38:15):
That's quite alright, thanks for inviting me.
Meg (38:19):
I just say something that's really disappointed me about
that episode, though, actually,and more about myself is that
before we recorded it, I've beenlistening to a lot of Taylor
Swift. And the song Hey, Stephencame on. And I was walking
around Kirkstall Abbey and itcame on and thought oh we're
recording with Steven tomorrow.
Maybe when he comes in, I'll sayhey, Steven, and give him a wink
and see if he knows what I'mtalking about. Anyway, I don't
(38:42):
know. I don't know if that wouldhave happened.
Sara (38:46):
I'm glad you didn't because if nothing else, hey
Steven is the most normalphrase. It doesn't. It doesn't
mean anything to anyone.
Meg (38:53):
Yeah, I just went with the Fonz instead.
Sara (38:56):
Moving swiftly on.
Meg (38:57):
Moving Taylor Swiftly on.
Sara (38:59):
Yeah.
Meg (39:01):
Did you do that deliberately?
Brilliant. Sorry. Please dogo on and talk about what we're
Sara (39:02):
No I actually didn't. It's just what happens isn't it.
actually supposed to be talkingabout.
Magna Carta didn't knowanything about it
Meg (39:12):
Do now.
Sara (39:13):
Yeah, do definitely not as much as Steven knows because he
wrote a book on it. But knowmore. So that's good, I suppose.
Meg (39:21):
Oh. I liked... oh do you know what, I liked learning what
What was your best learn Meg?
Sara (39:25):
I agree that was that was mine too, because I just think
a Baron was because all thischat from Terry Jones about
barons. I hate that. Don'tassume that I know what a Baron
is. (laughing) Brilliant. Butthen also I liked... I liked
finding out about Runnymedebecause I've been there so many
(39:46):
times. And I've always just beenlike, well what is it, what's
the point? Not to like, youknow, shade Runnymede, but it's
not that good. It's literallyjust like a field, and I've
always just been like why. Whywas it here. And it's really goo
to be able to tell people no.
(40:07):
geography's clever, isn't it?
But someone took the time tothink this place gets flooded
like quite a lot. So we can'thave a big fight on it because
it'd just be a pain. Imagine allthe mud. You'd just fall over
all the time. I thought that wasreally smart. So yeah. Of all of
the things we've heard about
Magna Carta (40:24):
muddy field.
Meg (40:27):
Yeah, well, no, it's a good fact. I also like the Salsbury
Cathedral thing. Yeah. BigCathedral. Magna Carta.
Sara (40:33):
Yeah.
Meg (40:34):
How's your father? Christ.
Sara (40:38):
It's descended hasn't it.
Meg (40:39):
Yeah. Also, it was just nice to chat to Steven, nice
guy. I feel like he's on ourhe's on our level. He knew what
he was getting himself in forthere.
Sara (40:47):
He did, which, which is kind of intimidating in a way
because he knows how he knowsall about our silly little
questions as you nicely pointedout in the first episode.
Meg (40:58):
Okay. So if you have managed to make it this far into
the episode, it might mean thatyou like us enough to leave a
review. Why is that funny?
People liking us is funny.
Sara (41:10):
We just always start this bit with a massive amount of
imposter syndrome.
Meg (41:13):
Yeah, I know. It's 'cause I'm embarrassed. But it's
important and we really needthem. And they really do help us
so if you could spare a littletime. It takes like 2 minutes to
leave a review. We'll give you akiss.
Sara (41:28):
We won't.
Meg (41:29):
No. In fact, I might start reading at my best ones.
Sara (41:32):
Okay. Yeah. Alex Horne was that on his podcast, he does
them in song form. We can't dothat. But we can read them out.
Meg (41:38):
We can give it a good go though can't we Smez.
Sara (41:40):
Yeah, I was gonna put another idea in there but now I
won't.
Meg (41:42):
Go on.
Sara (41:43):
Well, I was just thinking if you know, the theme has been
like different centuries anddifferent eras. It'd be good if
there was a translator for allof that so that... You know how
we translated into Shakespeare.
And then we could read thereviews in the style of the
episode.
Meg (41:58):
Yeah but how do you read the reviews in the style of King
John?
Sara (42:04):
That's why I told you I wasn't gonna say what the idea
was.
Meg (42:09):
Right on that note.
Sara (42:10):
Thanks, Tim Bentley for our theme music. Thanks, Alex
Finney for our cover artwork.
Both excellent. Great, excellentgood.
Meg (42:16):
Brilliant, if you want to chat to us, and why wouldn't
you? You can find us on Twitter@saralmerritt and - forgot my
own bloody name - and@MuseumMeg. You can also tweet
us @LeedsMuseums. What are youdoing?
Sara (42:32):
It's really windy outside, it's blowing a bloody gale in
here.
Meg (42:36):
Have you seen the meme where it says it's like blowing
a gale and its Gail fromCoronation Street.
Sara (42:41):
Yeah I love it. I love any memes involving Coronation
Street.
Meg (42:45):
Right kids have a good one and, er, see you later.
Sara (42:48):
Bye-ya.
Look, at you wolfing down an egg sam. Have you had a right
(00:02):
day?
Sara (00:03):
Yes, it was chucking it down. I've just been out and
walked the dog and it's chuckingit down. So, now I have soggy
hair.
Meg (00:10):
Also, can you see my hair like this? I put it down there
because to hide that I've gotbeans. I spilled my beans.
Hello, and welcome to theMuseums N'That podcast where
each episode we have a chinwagand serve you the steaming hot
tea on the things that museumpeople love the most. We're your
hosts Meg and Sara from LeedsMuseums and Galleries. And we
(00:30):
get to know the people behindthe objects by asking them the
questions that you really wantto know.
Sara (00:49):
How are you, you alright?
Mmm. yep yep yep. All, good.
Fine. How are you?
Meg (00:54):
Good can you rate the sandwich out of 10?
Sara (00:55):
Do you know what, I love an egg and cress sandwich so...
8.
Meg (00:59):
If you could have one sandwich for the rest of your
life? Would it be egg and cress?
Sara (01:02):
Probably yeah.
Meg (01:03):
It's not very sociable though, is it anyway?
Sara (01:06):
What's yours?
Meg (01:07):
Um, I think for me, it's cheese and coleslaw.
Sara (01:10):
Oh, nice. Well, you know, my dirty sandwich choice is
cheese and onion.
Meg (01:15):
And we always get that we're hungover don't we. Which
by the way, I am a little bittoday tiny bit, because I
haven't drunk in ages. And now Ijust have like a glass and I'm
tipsy. Basically, I was just alittle bit nervous about the
fact that for this episode, Iliterally know nothing. And I
was like, well have a glass ofwine. And my prep was literally
(01:35):
just watching Robin Hood, youknow, like the 2010 film with
Russell Crowe.
Sara (01:39):
Oh, wait, that was interesting that you went for
that one because I would havegone for the Disney version.
Meg (01:44):
Yeah, I know. But then I was like Russell Crowe. Mark
Gatiss, is in it? I just feltlike it was more of an event. Go
on. Tell me about your week,even though we recorded like two
days ago. So what's reallyhappened since then?
Sara (01:55):
Work wise it's just been quite busy. But then you know,
can't grumble 'cause I'd ratherhave things to do. Made like the
same dinner twice on the basisthat both of them were round. So
one of them was a frittata andthe other one was pie. Yeah,
same thing. Distinctly fine, Ithink was probably the response
on that one. How about you?
Meg (02:15):
I've just been editing us.
And honestly, the only thingthat's happened that is
different to me is myembarrassing day yesterday, but
I don't know if I want to tellthe whole museum sector about
that.
Sara (02:25):
Which part like the part where you have to pee into your
favourite Tupperware or the partwhere the Tupperware with your
own pee in it spilt in thedoctor's surgery?
Meg (02:33):
Yes. Yeah.
Sara (02:36):
Does that about sum that up?
Meg (02:37):
Oh, yeah, pretty much.
Yeah. Do you know what maybe, doyou know what somewhere, someone
might be anxious about this, soit might make me feel better
because literally nothing canhappen. This is a story. So my
doctor surgery, has got this new
Sara (02:50):
Lots of things learnt though I think from that. One,
system where you like loginonline, ask my GP and it's like
a Skype chat. You just send themlike an instant message and they
pop your message back, tell youwhat you need to do. My GP was
like drop off a urine sample andwe'll call you back later with
the results and then she closedthe chat. And so I was like, how
do I do that? I literally... doi do it here in a... what do I
(03:14):
do it in? Do I go to the surgerybut they've got like Coronavirus
restrictions like do I do itthere. So anyway, message Sara,
obviously asking what to do andhelp me with my life. I honestly
messaged like three differentpeople rang Rebecca Machin
literally was like, what do Iwee in I don't understand.
Anyway, so I went withTupperware. My favourite one as
(03:36):
well, it's what I have myovernight oats in. Not anymore.
Did a wee, as you do, walk up tothe doctor surgery and I'm so
anxious. Like, my worst thing isprotocol and not really knowing
the system. So anyway, I get tothe doctor surgery and there's a
like a buzzer and went indropped off. It was fine. Start
walking home and feelingabsolutely like yes smashed it.
(03:58):
Like didn't need to be anxious.
Halfway home. I get a call fromthe doctors. And I'm like oh my
god, that was quick. That wasliterally so quick. The poor
receptionist on the end of thephone is like yeah, and your
Tupperware leaked. So we needyou to come back to the surgery
and do a wee here. Died 1000times and turn around go back
in. And when I press theintercom buzzer I was like it's,
(04:19):
it's it's Megan Jones. And thewoman on the other of the other
end was like, yeaaahhh. Butanyway, it was just the worst
possible thing that could happenbut it's a good story.
your favourite tupperware? Letdown.
Meg (04:36):
Guys literally do not wee in your favourite tupperware.
Sara (04:39):
Disappointing on all levels, I think.
Meg (04:41):
Yeah. But you know what, it's a nice little tale for not
being anxious and things thatyou need to be anxious about
even when they do happen. It'snot that bad. Really?
Sara (04:50):
No, and actually, wee is very clever. It tells you a lot
of things. So it's very good toget it checked if you have any
worries.
Meg (04:57):
Isn't it? Moving on to museums. Sara, who have we got
on today?
Sara (05:02):
Oh my God, we have Steven off of Egham. You'll know him if
you follow sort of museum socialmedia and things. He's behind
Egham Museum, and he's come totalk to us today though about
something slightly different,which is another topic that
Meg's thrown a bit of acurveball at me for because
Shakespeare scares me a littlebit. And this also scares me but
(05:22):
more because I know a lot lessabout it.
Meg (05:25):
I think that works in our favour, though. Like, I feel
more hilariously in the darkabout this one.
Sara (05:31):
Yeah, It could go any...
and all ways?
Meg (05:34):
Also, when I emailed Steven to ask him to come on the pod, I
spelt it wrong. Spelt MagnaCarta wrong. So literally failed
at the first hurdle.
Sara (05:43):
I noticed. Because we do have... despite all obvious
signs, we do have a slight bitof organisation. Meg's done it
all. But you've asked a questionin here and you've managed to
spell it wrong again.
Meg (05:55):
Oh, my God, what where? Oh my god, the first question I can
see it on the sheet. Do you knowwhat I had a hard day yesterday
Sara ok.
Sara (06:04):
Probably best let him in.
So here is Steven off of Egham.
Also off of the Magna Carta.
spelt c-a-r-t-e-r, according toMeg.... 's episode, enjoy.
Meg (06:20):
I'm really glad that you actually couldn't hear us then
because I did this reallyembarrassing thing when you
first came in where I was like'eyyyy' and it was just really
cringe. But now I've just doneit again.
Steven (06:29):
Commitment to the cringe is strong.
Meg (06:32):
Brilliant. Steven, how are you? Are you alright?
Steven (06:34):
Yeah not too bad. Bit tired. Otherwise alright.
Plodding on.
Sara (06:43):
(laughing) So nonchalent! I didn't expect you to just be
like 'yeah' but you know what, Ikind of appreciate it. Because
every time I get an email, it'slike, I hope this finds you
well. You don't? Yeah. So noneof us care.
Meg (06:53):
Like literally no one's well, who is being found well
and where are they? Can I jointhem?
Steven (06:57):
It is true. That is actually very true. Yeah. The
over elaborate kind ofpositivity on Twitter and other
social media is beginning to youknow, take it take its toll.
Sara (07:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Meg (07:09):
Also, do you have a whiteboard in your house Steven,
or are you in a museum?
Steven (07:14):
I'm currently in the lovely confines of museum.
Sara (07:16):
The whiteboard wasn't the first thing I would query about
someone's house. Why do you haveso many files in your house?
Meg (07:23):
Okay, so you said you're in a museum, but can you please say
who you are and what you do forthe benefit of our lovely
listeners?
Steven (07:31):
Hi, I'm Steven Franklin.
Some call me Dr. StevenFranklin. But I don't profess
that anyone needs to use myacademic title. I've left those
dark days behind me and I'veescaped to the comforting
confines and surrounds ofdigital engagement, where you
will find me tweeting my bestlife from Egham Museum, and also
simultaneously Bradford Museumsand Galleries. So yeah, that's
(07:53):
me. That's what I do. PhD andarea of expertise is on Magna
Carta, which is convenient forthis episode. And also
convenient for my work at Eghambecause Egham has quite a close
connection to good old MagnaCarta and the days of 1215. What
a riot they were.
Meg (08:15):
Brilliant. And also, I don't know why I've started
doing this thing where I'mfinger pointing every time you
say something.
Sara (08:19):
You've got very... like, Happy Days for this episode.
'Eyyy' and lots of pointing withyour thumb up.
Meg (08:28):
I don't know why I feel like I'm delirious. And also, I
feel really bad that you justsaid that you've left the dark
days of your PhD behind becausewe're dragging them back out
again for this aren't we.
Steven (08:36):
They're not that dark.
Meg (08:37):
Also, is it the Magna Carta, or just Magna Carta
because Magna Carta sounds wrongand like it needs it.
Steven (08:43):
Yeah. So normally it's just Magna Carta, although in
instances yeah, you would saythe Magna Carta, if you're
starting a sentence forinstance. The Magna Carta was
sealed in 1215 would be anappropriate time to put the in
front of Magna Carta, butgenerally...
Sara (08:57):
Starting an episode with grammar. (Laughing)
Steven (09:00):
Mate. Mate the grammar nazis out there are going to
love this. Yeah, normally justMagna Carta, don't ask me why
don't actually know to behonest. Probably something about
the Latin.
Meg (09:08):
Is it Latin.
Steven (09:09):
So Magna Carta in Latin means roughly Great Charter.
Sara (09:13):
Guarantee millions of people know this, but just the
boldness. It's a great charter.
Steven (09:20):
It's a great charter.
It's the great charter ofliberties, to be precise, but
that that kind of gets droppedand just becomes Magna Carta.
Meg (09:28):
I feel like we're gonna get into this about like, what it
is, but isn't the main thing...
The start of laws, right? Andlike the rights of men, but why?
Steven's like no what are youtalking about.
Sara (09:40):
His face is like, oh my God.
Meg (09:42):
Stressed out. But. What confused me about it being in
Latin. Did everyone in Englandknow how to speak Latin?
Steven (09:49):
No. So Latin is used as kind of like the authoritative
language, you know, in reality,they're just speaking English.
You know, probably by 1200there's a little bit of French
influence coming into thelanguage but you know Latin's
really only preserved andreserved for legal and important
documents and religious liturgy,to be honest, they're not living
(10:13):
their best Roman life.
Meg (10:14):
So why don't they want everyone to know what it says?
Like, isn't it important forthose documents to have for
everyone to be able to read themand understand them?
Steven (10:22):
Well, I mean, I suppose it really depends whether you
believe that Magna Carta wasmeant for all men in 1215.
There's a little bit ofcontention around this point.
For instance, Magna Carta doesrefer to free men, but free men
in 1215 is a quite a spuriousterm. And even academics kind of
are very divided as to how manypeople in England at this time
(10:46):
are considered free men, maybe40% of the population are free
men. So no, Magna Cartaprobably, well, definitely
actually does not apply to allmen into all 15. And therefore,
it's not really necessary thateveryone knows its contents. And
then there's another line ofargument, sorry, this is going
to get awfully dry, and pleaseshut me down when I've rambled
(11:08):
on for too long. But you know,the other the other side of the
coin is actually that the baronswere holding King John at
Runnymede to ransom and accountin a very selfish kind of act to
basically ensure that all of thenaughty things that he's done
and privileges that he strippedaway from them were restored.
Sara (11:27):
King John was like, he was totally tit for tat, though,
wasn't it? He was... that washis gig. So kind of made sense
that if he, if he, as King ofthe land had that sort of
attitude, what did he expectfrom his barons and all these
other lads? Like, that's justwhat's going to happen? Isn't
it? So kind of on his own headto be it?
Steven (11:44):
You know, real talk here? He probably was, he was an
awful man.
Meg (11:49):
Why?
Steven (11:50):
Why was he an awful man?
Meg (11:51):
Yeah. Right. Basically, me and Sara to, like, revise for
this, we watched this, like,BBC, or what was it on the
British Library? Yeah, yeah.
animation. Where...
Steven (12:04):
Was it with the Monty Python narrator by any chance?
Sara (12:07):
Yeah.
Meg (12:08):
Yeah. And then last night, I had a few glasses of wine and
watched Robin Hood. So that'sliterally the basis that we're
working on here. So yeah, KingJohn. Bad.
Steven (12:17):
Discuss. Yep. I think Disney really kind of
caricatured him quite right. Inthat kind of sucking the thumb,
Lion, you know, and in someways, you could say he's got
serious Daddy issues.
Meg (12:30):
Same.
Steven (12:30):
His dad is quite successful. (laughing) Yep,
serious... That's probably goingto be another edit point.
Sara (12:38):
You don't know what we talked about in the intro.
Meg (12:40):
Yeah, God.
Steven (12:43):
That's a shame. But yeah, so he he comes from a very
successful family, thePlantagenets. His dad is a very
strong monarch, very strongleader, very successful warrior.
His brother, Richard the First,literally goes on crusade
absolutely smashes it. John, onthe other hand, doesn't kind of
live up to this reputation. Heis rubbish in battle. He loses
(13:04):
territory in France, quickerthan you spend money in
Wetherspoons. He loses all theterritory in France, and he
doesn't have a good time doingit. He gets into a dispute with
the Pope quite early on in hisreign, the Pope bans the
practice and preaching ofreligion in England for eight
years. And so people are a bitannoyed about that as well,
(13:26):
because they're very religiousin the 1200s.
Meg (13:29):
Why would the Pope want that though? Surely the Pope
wants everyone to be religious.
Steven (13:33):
He only wants the right people to be religious, doesn't
he? Like he doesn't want naughtypeople? That is the ultimate
telling off.
Sara (13:39):
How did they even police that? I could go and have a
little prayer now, no-one wouldknow.
Steven (13:44):
You probably could. And to be honest, probably people
did but like officialobservances at church, burying
of the dead, completely banned,couldn't do it, not allowed.
What else did he do? He had apenchant for taking mistresses
of his barons, no problem, justyou know, go off have an affair.
Meg (14:03):
Lad.
Steven (14:03):
Well, yes. I mean, we could say that, we could also
kind of question his moralprinciples. (laughing) Also
didn't have any issues with youknow, killing relatives. Killed
some of his nephews, bit likeRichard the Third. No problem
with that. Just a generallyconniving backstabbing group
basically.
Meg (14:23):
In the animation that we watched. Terry Jones was like,
he pulled the beards off theIrish chiefs. I was like Terry
Jones, what are you saying?
Steven (14:33):
To be honest, you've put me on the spot here Meg. You
said I didn't need to do anyhomework.
Meg (14:37):
I didn't put you on the spot. Terry Jones put you on the
spot.
Steven (14:40):
Big bad TJ put me on the spot here and he's literally
called my bluff. That's aquestion I didn't expect.
Curveball.
Meg (14:50):
That's fine. We can just say that he did and that's fine.
He literally pulled at theirbeards.
Steven (14:56):
Well, I think the beauty of these types of podcasts is
that we're not always here toprovide the answer. People can
go away do their own research,and this would be a good avenue
in which we can encourage that.
Sara (15:06):
Yeah, absolutely. So since we've figured out that he pulled
beards off of Irish chiefs, abit more of a serious question,
I suppose, in terms of like, hestarted imposing really heavy
taxes on his barons. So how isthat different from how we do it
today?
Meg (15:22):
So sorry, as well, literally what is a Baron?
Steven (15:25):
A Baron I think would be large land kind of aristocracy
of the 1200s would be probablythe quickest and simplest way.
Large, wealthy landowner, whocollects money from people that
lives on his land, has a titlepledges allegiance to the King.
That's kind of a very, verybrief and not very technical
(15:47):
description of a Baron. But thatkind of sets the scene. Like
taxation now, is kind ofregulated, or should be. No PAYE
system in 1215. Big bad KingJohn turns around and says,
look, I think you owe me this.
If you don't give me this, thenyou know, I'm going to steal
your family, keep them hostage,or I'll just strip you of your
title, or I'll kill you.
Sara (16:10):
Quite big isn't it I suppose. Quite a big difference.
Meg (16:12):
Last night, when I was watching the film, I watched the
Russell Crowe one.
Steven (16:16):
Oh what a great film that is.
Meg (16:18):
Oh my god, so good. And I wrote down some notes of things.
And one of them was barons,rings, do they still exist? I
wrote some other humdingers aswell. So basically, in the film,
there's loads of barons and theyall wear these like signet rings
or something. Or like, if youwere like the noblemen or like
(16:38):
the Knights like Russell Croweis wearing a ring. And I'm just
thinking about museums and likewhat we have, or like, what
still exists from that timeperiod. And like from the like,
setup of Magna Carta. Like, whatdo we still have? Do we still
have things like those rings? Orlike, do we have any belongings
of like the barons? Who were thekey players?
Steven (17:00):
I'm gonna say yes, because undoubtedly, there will
be ephemera associated to thevarious barons distributed
around the lands and variouscastles and museums. Interesting
you say that. Most people wouldhave, you know, obviously asked
any copies of Magna Cartasurviving. You're asking about
the barons... (laughing)
Meg (17:18):
No, I'm gonna get there.
Don't worry. I'm gonna go there.
Steven (17:20):
Cool. Cool. Cool.
excellent.
Meg (17:22):
Apart from... from Magna Carta... Oh god it's really hard
not to put a 'the' in front ofit. Um, what's your favourite
Medieval thing that you've everseen in a museum?
Steven (17:32):
Oh, I'm a sucker for, you know, armour. So any armour?
That's such a boring answer.
Isn't that?
Meg (17:39):
No, it's not.
Steven (17:40):
I could have said a lovely illuminated manuscript.
But instead I said armour.
Meg (17:45):
Steven you should come to Leeds we've got literally the
Royal Armouries.
Steven (17:48):
Yeah you do, that's true.
Meg (17:49):
Sorry, back to the reason you're on this literal podcast
to talk about Magna Carta.
Firstly, can you explain morecoherently than I did what it
actually is, and then I want totalk about the surviving copies.
Steven (18:02):
Okay, so Magna Carta is a medieval charter, A3 in size,
roughly, 4000 words of Latinthere or thereabouts. Original
1215 copy (18:13):
63 clauses. Sealed at Runnymede on the 15 of June
1215. People believe that MagnaCarta was the start of trial by
jury. That's kind of not true.
There is a reference to it. Butactually, the law of trial by
jury is, you know, comes muchlater, most mediaeval historians
would look at Magna Carta,rather than as a statement of
(18:35):
principles of modern day law andrights as more of a very
practical document that dealtwith the issues of 1215 and 13th
century politics.
Sara (18:51):
Relative, isn't it. It's all relative.
Steven (18:54):
Relative, yeah, and part of the issue is that because
it's so old, and it's so famouspeople have kind of
reinterpreted it and read extrameaning into it, which has all
kind of kept it current andcontemporary, but therefore also
kind of twisted and changed itsmeaning. Who these days is
actually looking or even able toread the, you know, the actual
(19:17):
copies of the, the originalcharter.
Meg (19:19):
So where is it?
Steven (19:20):
So four surviving copies. Two in the British
Library, one in Salisburycathedral is regarded as the
best surviving copy of 1215 andthen Lincoln Cathedral also have
a 1215 iteration.
Meg (19:34):
Is it... is Salisbury... is it the one where the Russians
said...
Steven (19:39):
Yes, yes, that's the one from the Russian thing.
Meg (19:43):
Brilliant, they were really into the Magna Carta.
Steven (19:45):
They didn't even put that on their TripAdvisor review
though. I think they'd like saidsomething stupid about lovely
views from the top or something.
But that's again for anotherpodcast.
Meg (19:55):
So wait, which one is the actual one?
Steven (19:57):
Well, that's the thing.
And that's potentially why youcan't say the Magna Carta
because there was never just onein the first place. Nobody knows
which is the first, we suspectthere were more copies made in
1215. What we suspect happenedis that the charter that King
John agreed to in 1215 on the15th of June, is then hurriedly
copied out by scribes and thendistributed around the kingdom
(20:21):
to the various cathedrals. Sopeople can see what's gone down
in Runnymede. So the original,nobody even knows who wrote it.
Meg (20:30):
You'd be really mugged off if you were the one that wrote
it, and no one knew that you'dwritten it.
Steven (20:34):
What they forgot to do was put their signature at the
bottom to say, PS, it was me.
Sara (20:38):
I want to ask about Runnymede. It's such a fun name.
Why was it so important? Why didthey, you know, why there?
Steven (20:45):
So first and foremost, Runnymede is a water meadow
liable to flooding, which meansthat it's very hard to have a
battle on. So that is one reasonwhy Runnymede was chosen,
because they didn't want it toend in a battle. So a meeting
point where you can't fight is agood place as any. Another
(21:07):
reason - the barons took theCity of London meaning that John
at that stage was in WindsorCastle, and the barons had
advanced from London to Staines.
Runnymede is roughly halfwaybetween Staines and Windsor. So
it meant that King John couldget in his boat and take a
little trip down the river andget off at Runnymede to meet the
big bad barons. A more kind oflocal reason, potentially is
(21:30):
that Runnymede, apparently inAnglo Saxon means meeting place.
And so I think those are kind ofthe three main reasons why
Runnymede.
Meg (21:40):
I remember when I was younger, because I grew up in
Bracknell, and I went toRunnymede like quite a lot. And
my dad used to always talk aboutit. And I never understood it. I
never understood what theimportance of it was, as a kid
you're like, this is literallyjust a field and a man called
John signed some paper. Andyeah, it's so... it's such a
(22:02):
weird place like to think that'ssomething so big happened there.
Steven (22:06):
Yeah. Like I've really thought about this far too much
to be healthy. But it's a bitlike a battlefield in the sense
where something importanthappened here. But there is
nothing that survives from thattime that kind of says something
important happened here, whichis a bit strange when you think
about it.
Meg (22:26):
Have there been like archaeological digs and stuff to
try and get artefacts formuseums?
Steven (22:30):
So there's... they've not done any sort of digs on the
actual meadows. There have beensome done a little bit further
down the way that resulted inSaxon and Bronze Age artefacts
being found out of roughly thesame time that they'll have been
building the M25. So yeah, butthey've not really found or done
any digging for medieval. And Ithink that's really because
(22:52):
beyond the you know, the coupleof days where the meeting was
being had, nobody was reallythere.
Meg (22:58):
I'd love it if there was like, if they did some digging,
and just found like a littlenote that John like left, like,
Steven (23:05):
Like a massive x like, this is where it was sealed. And
I literally don't agree withthis.
I don't agree with this. And tobe fair, that is probably what
John thought because it was onlyeight weeks after that he, you
know, declared Magna Carta nulland void. And, you know, Civil
War recommenced. So, to be fair,he probably was a bit hacked
off.
Sara (23:24):
Yeah, but this is a sweeping statement, but it'll be
one of the most widely - apartfrom the Bible - widely known
documents, and certainly at thattime and distribution, it's not
like today, you know, you can'tjust fire it out over the
internet. But how did peopleeven know what the repercussions
of the law would be? Like ifthey didn't, I imagine there's
(23:46):
quite a lot of people thatcouldn't read and write then
they just they were always onthe losing foot weren't they.
Which is rubbish.
Steven (23:51):
It is pretty rubbish.
Very rubbish. I mean, it goesSteven Franklin, Magna Carta
PhD, pretty rubbish.
back to that kind of...
It is true. The amount of timesI wish I didn't have that as my
Twitter handle is just... it wasa good idea at the time, but now
I really wish I could change it.
Talk about pigeon holingyourself. Although yours is
(24:11):
MuseumMeg which is the same ideaisn't it. Yeah, I mean, as I
said earlier, whether youraverage Joe really gave a damn
is debatable. That is why theykind of sent it to all of the
major cathedrals and, and townsand cities to ensure that it was
read aloud. So people were awareof it, at least
Meg (24:31):
At the beginning, you said about how it's like connected to
Egham. And like you haveobviously work at Egham museum.
What's the connection there withthe museum and it?
Steven (24:40):
So we don't, unsurprisingly, don't have any
of the medieval kind of... wedon't have an original copy of
the charter. What we do have alot of is much later
Sara (24:51):
Do you have an I heart Magna Carta mug?
commemorative ephemera markingthe moment especially from the
turn of the 1900s to the presnt day. And in many ways the fac
that a world renowned event hapened a stone's throw away, has
ensured that Egham has remined a place of maybe int
(25:11):
rest is going too far but relvant. And, you know, with tou
ism and all those things,it's something that the local ar
a has played on. And it's nicto say, isn't it that we're t
e place that democracy was apparntly started. So yeah, in terms
f, in terms of what the museuhas, it's very much the ephem
(25:32):
ra of commemoration and fromhe last 100 years.
Steven (25:40):
No, we don't actually we don't. But we do have our museum
mugs, which as you can see, Irealise I'm on a podcast, which
means nobody at home canactually see this. But we have
museum mugs, where we havelovely artwork, where we've
duped the ceiling of Magna Cartato say that coffee tastes better
with friends and King John isseen sealing a charter that says
(26:03):
I must not drink tea, I must notdrink tea with the barons
holding coffee cups. There wego, you know, always an
opportunity for a plug.
Meg (26:12):
Brilliant. I feel like our... for any listeners. If
you're strolling past Egham, asyou should be, you should nip in
to Egham museum and pick up oneof those mugs. Then go to
Runnymede. Just like to pretendlike you're King John for a
little bit and then hop over toBracknell and go to Pizza Hut
and say hi to my mum. So Steven,can you tell us a bit more about
(26:36):
like, what's your PhD on? Like,what's your thing with it, that
you're interested in in yourresearch.
Steven (26:43):
So my research is particularly focused on the way
in which Magna Carta has beencommemorated at Runnymede. This
is where I'm going to sound sogeeky, apologies. But it is a
really like simple butinteresting question. Why does a
document sealed over 800 yearsago, continue to exert some form
(27:03):
of influence? Why are we stillinterested in it? You know, that
is bonkers.
Sara (27:07):
It's kind of blowing my mind. The first thing when I
told Luke that we were going todo something on the Magna Carta,
he was like, oh right, Jay Z'salbum.
Steven (27:17):
Yeah, exactly.
Sara (27:18):
So you know, not his best but...
Meg (27:21):
I wonder if Jay Z has been to Runnymede.
Steven (27:23):
No, he didn't. But he did go to Salisbury Cathedral.
Sara (27:25):
There we go.
Meg (27:26):
Did he actually?
Steven (27:27):
Yeah, he did a photo of like a massive publicity stunt
where there was a picture of himjust at the moment he released
his album standing next to theSalisbury Magna Carta.
Meg (27:35):
I think the thing that I find really hard to get my head
around, is the fact that it wasso long ago. And there's so
like, the fact that it's stillthere, that you're saying the
fact that it still exists, butlike, I feel like I just want
all the material things. I wantto go to museums and just see
all the bits around and likephysically seeing something just
brings it to life a little bitmore. So I feel like it's
(27:56):
frustrating to me that there'sno there's been no like digs at
Runnymede. Dig it up.
Sara (28:01):
If Runnymede is like, essentially, a floodplain there
might not be a lot there anyway,because it has so much water.
800 years of water is an awfullot.
Meg (28:11):
I know but then where's the stuff?
Steven (28:14):
Probably in the sea by now?
Sara (28:16):
Yeah, probably in the channel somewhere floating
around with all manner ofthings.
Steven (28:19):
It's probably gone back to France?
Sara (28:21):
Yeah.
Meg (28:22):
Also, King John.
Steven (28:25):
Yeah.
Meg (28:26):
Died a year later. Is that right?
Steven (28:27):
He did yeah. 1216.
Meg (28:29):
That's literally so annoying, isn't it? And like,
wouldn't you just be so muggedoff if you'd just done this
thing and then you died? And wasit? Did he die doing a poo?
Steven (28:36):
He did die of dysentery.
Whether he died in the kind ofthrows of a bowel movement? Not
quite sure. But definitelydysentery. And it was in the
wash. And that's where he losthis crown jewels.
Meg (28:49):
Hang on. What? He lost his crown jewels?
Steven (28:54):
Yeah. He lost his crown jewels in the wash.
Meg (28:57):
Right, sorry. Go on.
Steven (28:59):
Yeah, so he's on the like the Norfolk coast and then
well basically in amongst civilwar being chased around the
country by the barons? ClassicJohn, isn't it really? Yeah,
he's he's along the coast, he'sgot a little bit with of a
dickey tummy and yes, so all ofhis all of his treasure gets
washed out to sea.
Meg (29:16):
Hang on. So he's doing a poo in the sea, and then his
crown jewels...
Sara (29:20):
Pretty sure that's not what Steven just said.
Steven (29:23):
I mean, I can see why you've truncated the story to
come up with that revelatoryheadline. Whenever I think about
this, it's like, you've got allof the classic ingredients of a
really good story here. You'vegot a really evil monarch,
you've got the barons that arethe good coming to fight the
evil King John. You know, MagnaCarta prevails, the goodies win.
(29:48):
They you know, protect all ofour rights. You know, it's just
a just a nice romanticnarrative, isn't it that we can
all really get behind. Clauses39 and 40, the famous ones, to
no man will be denied to no manwhere we sell... the one that
sort of references, you know,ensuring that people would only
have a jury of their peers.
They're 39 and 40 in thecharter, which indicates that
(30:09):
actually, they're not veryimportant because they're just
smuggled in the middle. If it'simportant, you'd either put it
at the top or at the end,probably at the top. But you
know, those are the ones thathave survived. And it's because
of it's because they are so...
they're not exact, they're notprecise. They are more just
principles that we can all getbehind and support, that are
(30:31):
really open to interpretation.
You know, they're very powerful,sexy ideas that you can kind of
get behind caught you
Sara (30:38):
I find it fascinating.
It's an A3 document with 4000words on it.
Steven (30:42):
Oh, yeah, it's tiny.
It's incredibly small writing,and it's incredibly neat as
well. So the chances are...
Meg (30:50):
What were their pens like?
I wonder what the oldest pen is.
Sara (30:53):
Feathers.
Steven (30:55):
They're feathers.
They're not pens. They're notbiros.
Meg (30:58):
Yeah, but like...
Sara (30:59):
Gel pen.
Meg (31:00):
... writing equipment.
Steven (31:01):
It's not a glitter pen.
Meg (31:03):
I wish it was that cinnamon flavoured one that smelt really
good.
Steven (31:07):
Yeah. Oh, yeah. The mems.
Meg (31:12):
Brilliant. The only other things that I had on my list
were from when I watched thething yesterday, although you
literally don't have to answerany of these because I don't
even know what I really meant.
The other one was, where dofilmmakers get this stuff from?
My guess is history.
Steven (31:33):
The clue is very much in the title or in the word isn't
it? His story?
Meg (31:38):
Is Robin Hood real though actually. In fact, Sara. You're
from this part o't'world.
Sara (31:45):
Yeah, obviously real.
There's a statue of him atNottingham Castle so. Clearly
real. I never made theconnection. How come? You know
Nottingham? Were the ones thatwhen Christ we best create this
character, and we're going tonick the story of the Magna
Carta. It's all very confusing.
Meg (32:02):
Oh, yeah. This is a point actually. Is it like...
Steven (32:04):
Actually here's a fact bomb for you. So, the Sheriff of
Nottingham is referenced inMagna Carta. The Sheriff of
Nottingham in 1215 is a dudecalled Phillip Mark. Phillip
Mark is referenced in MagnaCarta, probably not the same
Disney interpretation, but he islike the Sheriff of Nottingham
(32:26):
is also a very naughty boy. Andin fact, Magna Carta is trying
to get rid of Phillip Mark getrid of the Sheriff of Nottingham
because the Sheriff ofNottingham as you can kind of
guessed by his name is aFrenchman. And these good old
English barons are a little bittired of John continually
promoting French aristocracy,French militia, and replacing
(32:47):
them with Frenchmen.
Sara (32:49):
That is fascinating and my favourite fact now. The more we
talk about it, the more I thinkit was definitely just a load of
guys sat around a table had hada few drinks, and just went
yeah, we don't like him. Yeah,yeah. And then just like point
29, this as well. And it wasjust like, the little things
they didn't want any more.
Steven (33:08):
But actually, was it because in like, in late 1214,
early 1215, there's a documentcalled the articles of the
barons, which is the prototypefor Magna Carta, which is
essentially a draft of all oftheir grievances. And so yeah,
they were, you know, they weredefinitely in a WhatsApp chat.
If it existed back then.
Meg (33:28):
Steven, now you're a listener. So you know, and you
I'm assuming you've prepared.
Steven (33:34):
I actually am a listener, and I actually forgot
all about this. I was too scaredabout what you were going to ask
me (laughing). I'm going to letyou down so hard here.
Meg (33:47):
No, absolutely not. You can't let yourself down more
than I've let myself down today.
Steven (33:52):
The best bit - I'm gonna have to out you here was when
you sent the first email askingif I'd be on the podcast, and
then sent a follow up emailsaying just realised I spelt
Magna Carta wrong. Great.
Sara (34:03):
She spelt it wrong in the notes here.
Meg (34:04):
Yeah. Yeah. I literally wanted to die. I was like, you
literally think that I'm thedumbest person this is so
stressful.
Sara (34:11):
She messaged me straight away and was like I spelt it
wrong. I spelt it wrong. I waslike, just reply and say you
spelt it wrong. But I did leaveit for a bit because I did think
it was hilarious.
Steven (34:20):
I'm really not even that precious. At the end of the day,
I knew what you meant, and I'msorry that I just publicly
humiliated you.
Meg (34:28):
Honestly just add it to the pile. Right Steven? What has
been your favourite day at work?
Steven (34:36):
My favourite day work is unfortunately sorry, all the
Bradford listeners, is an EghamMuseum day, but my favourite day
was the day in which our ChooseYour Own Adventure thread was
published, released. Seeing allof the kind of hard work that I
put into it and it get some formof traction was a good day. Was
(34:56):
a good day it was worth the hardwork and staying up late at
night doing it.
Meg (34:58):
Can you just give a tiny bit quick explanation of what
that was for our listeners.
Steven (35:03):
Yes. So very quickly in a minute we have Royal Holloway
it was founded in 1868. Roughly,as a women's only college. I
decided to do a Choose Your OwnAdventure thread on Twitter,
much like the books ofyesteryear, in which you were
one of the first students andyou needed to go through the day
without getting in trouble bythe principal. Do go to
(35:23):
@EghamMuseum, if you would liketo know more.
Sara (35:26):
And choose your own adventure.
Steven (35:28):
Oh, that was good.
Sara (35:30):
Thanks. Been practicing. I don't - I actually don't
practice anything because itgoes terribly if I'm scripted.
Meg (35:36):
Having said that Sara, this is now your bit.
Sara (35:39):
I'm not going to read it out. It's fine no, I know what
it is. And so the last questionis twofold. One, it's takeaway
related. But first of all, wehave to know what the big
takeaway for our listeners wouldbe from everything that we've
talked about today.
Steven (35:52):
Oh, wow. I mean, the problem is, there's been so many
factoids, isn't there?
Meg (35:58):
I love that you said factoids then. I don't know why
that just made me laugh quite alot. Factoid.
Steven (36:03):
Yeah, yeah. Bit pretentious isn't it. You know
what? I think the one takeawaythe one takeaway is, Magna Carta
was sealed at Runnymede becauseit was a place in which you
couldn't have a pitched or aplanned battle. There you go.
Meg (36:20):
I didn't know that. And I'm really glad that you told me
that because I always used towalk around it thinking why am I
here?
Steven (36:27):
To be fair, it's probably what John and the
barons were saying too.
Meg (36:31):
In a way I do think I am quite like King John. Anyway go
on Sara...
Sara (36:36):
Whoever was the location scout for that? Cracking job.
Well done.
Steven (36:40):
Yeah, but I don't imagine there were too many
amenities like in the local areaif if the current selection is
anything to go by. God blessthem right?
Meg (36:47):
It's alright because John doesn't mind having a wildy does
Steven (36:50):
No he doesn't (laughing). He'd just wander he.
down to the river. Hold my crownjewels for me. I've got work to
do.
Sara (37:05):
Let's talk about food.
What's your actual literal favourite takeaway?
Steven (37:09):
Ah, I'm gonna get so judged for this, because it's so
not classy. Like I've heard somereally good suggestions. And I'm
going to say that I am so basic.
Give me a pepperoni pizza fromDomino's.
Meg (37:23):
Yes, I respect that so much.
Sara (37:25):
Garlic and herb dip.
Steven (37:27):
Yes, there's something about the mixture of melted
cheese and processed meat withgarlic and herb dip that just
tickles my pickle.
Meg (37:37):
That is an unbelievable shout I really like that. My
only qualm with pepperoni is Ithink I like the really thin
pepperoni. So if I'm, if I'mgoing to get it, it's going to
be the Pizza Hut one where it'slike sometimes the edges of it
get a little bit burnt. But theDomino's one is just a little
tiny bit too thick. For me.
Sara (37:56):
It's a bit too 3D isn't it?
Steven (37:58):
And yeah, and to be honest, like the pizza hut
pepperoni is also very good. Andyou have the advantage of a
stuffed crust. Although Domino'ssometimes do the hot dog stuffed
crust. Now that is a gamechanger.
Sara (38:09):
Ohhh.
Meg (38:10):
Brilliant. Steven, thank you so much for coming on the
pod. You've been such awonderful guest.
Steven (38:15):
That's quite alright, thanks for inviting me.
Meg (38:19):
I just say something that's really disappointed me about
that episode, though, actually,and more about myself is that
before we recorded it, I've beenlistening to a lot of Taylor
Swift. And the song Hey, Stephencame on. And I was walking
around Kirkstall Abbey and itcame on and thought oh we're
recording with Steven tomorrow.
Maybe when he comes in, I'll sayhey, Steven, and give him a wink
and see if he knows what I'mtalking about. Anyway, I don't
(38:42):
know. I don't know if that wouldhave happened.
Sara (38:46):
I'm glad you didn't because if nothing else, hey
Steven is the most normalphrase. It doesn't. It doesn't
mean anything to anyone.
Meg (38:53):
Yeah, I just went with the Fonz instead.
Sara (38:56):
Moving swiftly on.
Meg (38:57):
Moving Taylor Swiftly on.
Sara (38:59):
Yeah.
Meg (39:01):
Did you do that deliberately?
Brilliant. Sorry. Please dogo on and talk about what we're
Sara (39:02):
No I actually didn't. It's just what happens isn't it.
actually supposed to be talkingabout.
Magna Carta didn't knowanything about it
Meg (39:12):
Do now.
Sara (39:13):
Yeah, do definitely not as much as Steven knows because he
wrote a book on it. But knowmore. So that's good, I suppose.
Meg (39:21):
Oh. I liked... oh do you know what, I liked learning what
What was your best learn Meg?
Sara (39:25):
I agree that was that was mine too, because I just think
a Baron was because all thischat from Terry Jones about
barons. I hate that. Don'tassume that I know what a Baron
is. (laughing) Brilliant. Butthen also I liked... I liked
finding out about Runnymedebecause I've been there so many
(39:46):
times. And I've always just beenlike, well what is it, what's
the point? Not to like, youknow, shade Runnymede, but it's
not that good. It's literallyjust like a field, and I've
always just been like why. Whywas it here. And it's really goo
to be able to tell people no.
(40:07):
geography's clever, isn't it?
But someone took the time tothink this place gets flooded
like quite a lot. So we can'thave a big fight on it because
it'd just be a pain. Imagine allthe mud. You'd just fall over
all the time. I thought that wasreally smart. So yeah. Of all of
the things we've heard about
Magna Carta (40:24):
muddy field.
Meg (40:27):
Yeah, well, no, it's a good fact. I also like the Salsbury
Cathedral thing. Yeah. BigCathedral. Magna Carta.
Sara (40:33):
Yeah.
Meg (40:34):
How's your father? Christ.
Sara (40:38):
It's descended hasn't it.
Meg (40:39):
Yeah. Also, it was just nice to chat to Steven, nice
guy. I feel like he's on ourhe's on our level. He knew what
he was getting himself in forthere.
Sara (40:47):
He did, which, which is kind of intimidating in a way
because he knows how he knowsall about our silly little
questions as you nicely pointedout in the first episode.
Meg (40:58):
Okay. So if you have managed to make it this far into
the episode, it might mean thatyou like us enough to leave a
review. Why is that funny?
People liking us is funny.
Sara (41:10):
We just always start this bit with a massive amount of
imposter syndrome.
Meg (41:13):
Yeah, I know. It's 'cause I'm embarrassed. But it's
important and we really needthem. And they really do help us
so if you could spare a littletime. It takes like 2 minutes to
leave a review. We'll give you akiss.
Sara (41:28):
We won't.
Meg (41:29):
No. In fact, I might start reading at my best ones.
Sara (41:32):
Okay. Yeah. Alex Horne was that on his podcast, he does
them in song form. We can't dothat. But we can read them out.
Meg (41:38):
We can give it a good go though can't we Smez.
Sara (41:40):
Yeah, I was gonna put another idea in there but now I
won't.
Meg (41:42):
Go on.
Sara (41:43):
Well, I was just thinking if you know, the theme has been
like different centuries anddifferent eras. It'd be good if
there was a translator for allof that so that... You know how
we translated into Shakespeare.
And then we could read thereviews in the style of the
episode.
Meg (41:58):
Yeah but how do you read the reviews in the style of King
John?
Sara (42:04):
That's why I told you I wasn't gonna say what the idea
was.
Meg (42:09):
Right on that note.
Sara (42:10):
Thanks, Tim Bentley for our theme music. Thanks, Alex
Finney for our cover artwork.
Both excellent. Great, excellentgood.
Meg (42:16):
Brilliant, if you want to chat to us, and why wouldn't
you? You can find us on Twitter@saralmerritt and - forgot my
own bloody name - and@MuseumMeg. You can also tweet
us @LeedsMuseums. What are youdoing?
Sara (42:32):
It's really windy outside, it's blowing a bloody gale in
here.
Meg (42:36):
Have you seen the meme where it says it's like blowing
a gale and its Gail fromCoronation Street.
Sara (42:41):
Yeah I love it. I love any memes involving Coronation
Street.
Meg (42:45):
Right kids have a good one and, er, see you later.
Sara (42:48):
Bye-ya.
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