How Are Music Lawyers Revolutionizing Artist Deals in 2025? With Brianna Schwartz and Alexis Schreiber From Schwartz & Schreiber Law Firm

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
On today's podcast, we're thrilled to welcome Brianna Schwartz and Alexis
Schreiber, the dynamic duo behind the forward thinking law firm of
Schwartz and Schreiber. With a passion for music and the law, Brianna
and Alexis discuss the radical transformations in the music industry and
how they are bridging the gap between artists and legal counsel with
insights into streaming contract innovations and the revolutionary

(00:22):
impact of technologies like AI and blockchain. This conversation
is essential for anyone navigating today's rapidly evolving music
business landscape. Insiders, Are you ready?
Welcome to MUBUTV's Music Business Insider Podcast where
our mission is to educate, empower and engage artists and

(00:42):
music business professionals who are dedicated to having a successful career
in the new music industry. Here are your hosts, Ritch
Esra and Eric Knight. Welcome back insiders, to another
episode of the MUBUTV Music Business Insider
Podcast where our mission is to educate, empower and engage
your music career. Today we have a riveting discussion planned for

(01:04):
you. Join us as we dive into the dynamic world of music
law with two pioneering forces in the industry, Brianna
Schwartz and Alexis Schreiber. Together they've built a very distinctive
law firm that champions an innovative artist centric approach to
legal representation, addressing the gaps that exist between
attorneys and their talented clients. In this episode, we'll

(01:26):
uncover how Brianna and Alexis are transforming the legal landscape in
music by utilizing three core principles a holistic big
picture picture approach, individualized client engagement, and the
pursuit of passion. We'll explore the booming shift in
music deals in the age of streaming and how artists today are
leveraging platforms like Patreon and Discord to bypass

(01:48):
traditional gatekeepers and what pitfalls to watch out for along
the way. And you won't want to miss their insights on future trends
impacting the industry from AI to blockchain, and the
vital role of trademarks for artists. Even hear their
tips for those just starting out on their musical journey. Get ready for
a conversation packed with practical advice, industry

(02:10):
secrets and inspiration for every aspiring artist.
But first, a word from our sponsor. Hey insiders, Are you an
aspiring musician, artist, band or future music business
professional looking to take your career to the next level? Well, look no
further. At Moobu tv we offer personalized career counseling and
coaching designed specifically for folks like you. Imagine having

(02:32):
both of us by your side, guiding you through every step of your music journey.
Our sessions are tailored to meet your your unique needs, focusing on critical
aspects of your music career such as refining your songs, defining
your artist story, identifying your target audience, and enhancing your
social media presence, just to name a few. Whether you're just starting out
or looking to elevate your existing career, we've got you covered. Our

(02:54):
comprehensive approach ensures you get insights on everything
from live shows to branding and marketing strategies. We
understand that every artist is unique. That's why our coaching
is personalized just for you. And here's the best part. We offer
flexibility, flexible coaching packages that fit any budget. Choose from individual
sessions ranging from 30 to 90 minutes or save with our discounted four

(03:16):
session packages. Experience custom sessions designed to enhance your
music career with opportunities for greater savings. When you choose bundled
sessions. Investing in your musical journey has never been more
accessible. Imagine the clarity and direction you'll gain
after just one session. The feedback on your songs, the strategies
to grow your audience, and the confidence to perform live. All tailored

(03:39):
to just for you. So why wait? Don't let uncertainty hold you
back. Join us for your free 15 minute discovery.
Call@book movutv.com for a
transformative coaching experience that will elevate your music career.
That's book.moobutv.com
hi, this is Lionel Lodge. I'm CEO and co founder of Sync.

(04:00):
Lodge and you're listening to the Mooboo TV Music
Business Insider Podcast. Welcome back insiders. Today's
featured guests are the incredible dynamic legal team of
Brianna Schwartz and Alexis Schreiber from the law firm
Schwartz and Schreiber. This was a fascinating conversation, Eric, and for
many reasons. Number one, these are two very, very

(04:22):
innovative thinking women who have really identified some very
interesting points of what works and what doesn't work in the legal
profession of representation of artists and have really addressed
them. I thought one of the most fascinating aspects of our conversation
with Briana and Alexis was their holistic approach.
You know, their firm focuses a very holistic approach in terms of

(04:44):
representation. They look at contract scenarios in relation to an
artist's long term vision and leveraging the entire context
rather than just the contract's face value. This is fascinating
because what that says and why I think it's so important is that
today, in 2025, the context of what, what they were
talking about is that an artist themselves has to have a vision.

(05:06):
It's not just get me a deal. Yeah, well, who are we getting a deal
for? Right? There's a holistic look at what they are
representing. It's not just a deal, it's what do you want to do,
what are you about, where do you want to be in three to five years?
And you have to have answers to these questions. In terms of what they were
talking about. That's what I thought was so fascinating about that approach, is

(05:28):
that it wasn't just, you know, next, next, cookie cutter legal
representation. And if you're going after a deal, you better know the answer to these
questions. Prior to that, you know, we talk about the storytelling and all those different
elements. One of other areas that I thought was really important, and
this goes for everybody that's starting, whether you're starting intermediate or
advanced in your career that are listening to this right now. But treating your

(05:51):
music career as a business, it's crucial for artists to
treat their music careers as businesses, complete with structured
teams and strategic decisions. You know, they really shared a wealth
of knowledge in this, and this is a big one, because artists that are starting
out don't think of their career as a business or might not even have had
that concept come into their mind. But unfortunately, we are our products

(06:12):
and we are brands. And so with that, you have to treat this
like a business. And that's doing all the necessary paperwork, whether it's
filling out trademarks for your. For your name as an artist or a band.
Songwriting splits, which we talked about before in past episodes, making sure
that all of these things are wrapped up nicely in a bow. So
when you go to that next step of your career, you have the

(06:35):
foundation of what you need in order to succeed.
Absolutely. And you said it perfectly. It's
about thinking of your career as a
business that's crucial. And with that, insiders,
sit back, relax, and enjoy our featured conversation with
Brianna Schwartz and Alexis Schreiber. Brianna,

(06:56):
Alexis, welcome. Thank you so much. It's so great having
you guys on the show. You know, the music industry has undergone such a radical
transformation in how artists not only create and distribute their
work, but also in the legal framework that governs their careers.
And this demands, I think, probably a much more dynamic
and artist centric approach to legal representation. My question to you

(07:19):
guys, Brianna and Alexis, is that you have both spoken
about forming your firm after recognizing a
disconnect in how attorneys and clients typically work together.
My question is twofold. What did you feel was missing in those
relationships, and how does your approach bridge that
gap? Yeah, so Brianna, here, I'll take this

(07:40):
one. We were seeing
and finding from, you know, speaking to artists and business
people in this space that a lot of the issues that they
were having or are having with legal counsel, and I think this is a
tale like oldest time is that contracts are being
negotiated, deals are being closed, but the terms

(08:03):
are not being explained. And
Outcome of like what this contract actually means is not being explained to
the client because lawyers do their thing and you know, we talk to other lawyers
and we negotiate on behalf of our clients. And a lot of times when you're,
especially when you're dealing with like big law firms or big companies,
we even when dealing with counsel at

(08:25):
major labels who are negotiating on behalf of the label, that a lot of
times they're disconnected what the A and R rep actually wanted
from, you know, the artists that we're repping on our end and
how that deal should look. And so a lot of the disconnect there is
really just, you know, that human connection of like,
let's sit down and talk shop and be partners and talk about like what

(08:47):
you're trying to do. Because a deep deal for one artist
may be very different than what that deal should be
for another artist, depending on their vision for themselves, their leverage
in this scenario. And so while a lot of attorneys sometimes look
at deals on their face, meaning, like, what does the document actually
say? What we really try to do is look at the scenario

(09:10):
super holistically and understand that like, while this deal may be
really good for bad for this artist on the other side of the coin because
of their scenario and what they envision for themselves over the next six months
to a year, to three years, to five years. Alexis and Brianna, thank
you so much. This is Eric. Thank you so much for doing this. We're really
excited to have you on the show. I wanted to ask you, you know, you

(09:30):
guys have stated that the three guiding principles of Schwartz and
Shriver are, number one, immersing ourselves in our clients
world. Number two, a holistic big picture
approach. And number three, seeking out of dedication
and passion. This I would imagine, requires you to be very, very
selective in your partnerships. Tell us what you look for in a client

(09:52):
you're looking to represent. So we look for a number of things. Thanks Eric. This
is Alexis. It's really dependent on the situation.
We really enjoy representing on both sides of the industry. So of
course our whole passion started out being music lovers ourselves and
being really excited about representing and helping artists develop their career. But
as we got into it, we. Also found a big passion and a big interest

(10:14):
in representing on the label side and on the business side. So
you know, record labels, publishers, production companies, think
houses, all these kind of new, developing and
independent on that side of the business as well. Because it also helped
us be able to represent artists on a better scale and kind of know where
the negotiation points are, know what Works for, you know, the business

(10:36):
side as well as the artist side and what we can kind of do to
make it work for both parties. And that's kind of been very exciting for us
to find that passion on the business side as well. So for us, it is
really about finding artists that we love, finding things that we love to
do, because then it doesn't so much feel like work as it does, you know,
doing something you're excited about, but also being able to create that

(10:56):
value and, you know, help clients and help businesses grow along the way.
So it's. It's really exciting space and we love being in it and, you know,
representing on both sides of the coin. Yeah, it's. It's interesting as I'm
listening to you, I'm thinking, you know, that also makes the work, I think, more
interesting and from a sort of a holistic. Right. Would give you
guys both an understanding of, you know,

(11:18):
client and, you know, the person who you're negotiating with so that you do have
an understanding of what, you know, labels and the. The other side wants as well
as what. What an artist wants as well. It. That. That. That's a great
balance. Right, right. And we love. It's giving. It gives us
the opportunity too, to take risks on artists and kind of, you know,
negotiate with them and help them start their career off, even though

(11:40):
they may not be able to, and necessarily start out with legal counsel
off the bat. And so it kind of gives us flexibility there to help
artists and grow. Exactly. Let me ask you, you know, with
streaming dominating music consumption, traditional contracts
and revenue structures have had to evolve as well. Today,
no sort of standard record deals per se. There's more

(12:03):
innovation depending on your genre leverage track record.
Today, artists are in charge of building their own leverage. And so my
question to you guys is, what are some of the most significant shifts
you've seen in how artists structure various deals? Yeah, I
mean, Brianna, here, this is something that we talk about all the
time. We see, you know, record label deals from like the super

(12:26):
independent, and then we also see the majors. Well,
and one of the terms that is really
interesting and evolving and, you know, even from four years ago
when we first opened our practice, prior to that just being in the industry and
to now, like the shift is happening so quickly
where back when it was like, you know, everything was PPD

(12:47):
from a loyalty standpoint, and it was you. You were
seeing mostly that, and then you started seeing like a combination of that and
sometimes it was starting to, you know, recalculate PPD
into What would that mean in a net profit deal? And then
from there it's like now you're barely seeing
a lot is that the artist will come to us

(13:09):
say, you know, oh, I want, you know, this many points
not understanding that if they didn't have a lawyer explaining to
them that that calculation on a net
receipts basis would actually really screw them over. Because
when you're talking ppd, for those of you who don't know we're talking, you
know, you take home a percentage of the retail price

(13:32):
of the so called album sale, single sale
or whatever might be back in the day, that conversion. Now net
receipts, when you're deducting marketing expenses and promo and all of that stuff
is a very different calculation. So understanding, I think
like where the market is and what type of label you're
dealing with and like you were saying

(13:54):
of the artist is super important in trying to formulate
a proper royalty percentage in a deal. And I
think like there's no one size fits all for this. It's really important
to analyze the holistic
scenario there. And let me ask you just another sub question to that.
Are you still seeing, and you don't have to name names obviously of the companies

(14:15):
or anything, but are you still seeing the deals structured with
physical goods? Is that still part of the equation? You know, even though there
isn't like such a thing as physical goods anymore? Yeah, it's
really wild because the legal, the legal industry as a whole is antiquated
in the way like you're seeing contracts like reflect after the fact. Right.
And as crazy as it sounds, yes, we are seeing

(14:38):
physical calculations being inputted into these deals. I actually
recently reviewed two Sony deals side by side for
subsidiaries of Sony and both of them had an
entire section on physical sales.
And like, it's like you have to pay attention to it in the
event that, you know, vinyl takes this mass resurgence,

(15:00):
which we know it's taking, you know, sort of a resurgence at this point. But
like in the event that something comes up, you want, you want to look at
everything. But it is pretty wild because I think technology is
moving a lot quicker than the legal industry
during that and how to articulate that into a contract.
And so I do see it as a problem because like I said, it's like

(15:20):
you're talking a percentage of a physical sale. It's very different than
a percentage of the net receipts that are collected from streaming
platforms. Well, I also think that it's just the way these contracts have been
done. They're monster documents and sometimes it's really hard to
revamp them. So I think it's been, you know, an industry problem as a whole
is sometimes they're just not revamped the way that they should be. So

(15:42):
I think that's something that we definitely want to be a part of the change
and, you know, change the way that these contracts are drafted so that they're more
easy to understand. They're, you know, the terms are more clear
and more relevant to the way that music moves today and the industry today, rather
than the way it was 20 years ago. So let me ask you. Many artists
are now bypassing traditional gatekeepers by monetizing

(16:02):
directly through platforms like Patreon, Only Fans and Discord.
My question is twofold for you guys. How does this shift change the
legal considerations for artists, and what are some of the most common
pitfalls they should avoid when managing their own fan communities?
So I think that it's. It's super important for artists to be.
Aware that building out these types of, you know, fan

(16:25):
bases that they have a lot more control over, this is kind of a new
phenomenon and like, a very exciting one for artists because they're able to have more
control over bringing people and who they're reaching, and it can give
them negotiation leverage. So I think that that's a really important point because we hear
it all the time. It's like, oh, well, this artist has this many followers, so
maybe they have a little bit more leverage in this scenario. And

(16:46):
that's very exciting because it is a shift in that way. And they're able to
kind of ask for different terms and say, like, hey, I can
pull these people into touring. So maybe the certain deal terms
are more favorable. And that is a very, very important thing. But I
think to that same point, the pitfalls could
be that a lot of these things are moving so quickly and developing, and like,

(17:09):
all of a sudden there's. There's tick tock. Now there's no tick tock. And then
there's going to be something else maybe that replaces it. And it's really hard to
foresee all of these scenarios and put it all
in the contract. So, like, now we're seeing things, you know,
like, even as silly as this sounds, in what, a
territory. So it used to be like, you know, you put the. The world as

(17:30):
the territory, right? Then we started seeing the universe as the territory.
Now we're seeing the metaverse as the territory. So it's like things that, like,
you seriously, it's actually like an interesting thing because it's like well, if the
territory is the world, does that include the metaverse? Like, could you enter
into a different. It's all these questions that have not yet been addressed
and, you know, it had. They have implications. Because at the end of the day.

(17:52):
Like that agreement is what you're looking back on. If there's a problem and if
it's not addressed, like it's, you know. And let me. And let me.
Yeah, let me ask you a question. Let's say you get an artist that's going
to get ready, like they said, they're going to sign to a major. Let's say
when they sign that deal and, you know, we're talking about the idea of the
fan communities and how important it is in this question that we asked you earlier.

(18:13):
My question to you is, are you seeing deals structured? And I don't know how
that part of it works. When they get signed to the deal,
are they required to turn in like all of their fan information to
the label? Because I do notice that you'll see switches with certain
artists that maybe had not been signed before. And then you can see that it's
coming, like through Universal Music. You start seeing their whole mailing list going

(18:35):
through Universal. Can you explain that in more detail? Because I think it would be
curious to know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that.
That is. Yeah. So we see that a
lot, like I said, in the major label deals, and that's all heavily
negotiated. So I wouldn't say that, like you have to hand over
everything and you have to handle. Hand over your websites and your accounts and

(18:57):
all that. And that was actually a provision that was heavily
negotiated in that deal I was handling in both of them
and two very different outcomes because of the leverage of the artist there.
So, you know, Sony wanted the rights to take over
their website and fully control the website and actually own the IP behind
the website and to push sales through the website

(19:18):
and that they couldn't have any other artist website. And so we. That was a
provision that we went back and forth on a multitude of times and
ended. Ended up landing on. They could have a website
that pushes the records that are being released during the term of the
contract, but they didn't have exclusive
rights to this artist, you know, name, image and likeness. And

(19:41):
they didn't have the exclusive right to control a website because we've
heard from people on the tech side of. Of music that
the massive mistake to hand over those rights to labels in full
because most of the time they are not actually
doing the extent of what they could be doing.
Exactly. So like Wallace, like, yeah, like it's like there's,

(20:04):
there's these new, there's, you know, tech companies now for everything
and to find every little nuance to help you push your business forward.
So it's almost like it's become like an entrepreneur's world. Like
in this artist space where it's like you can't just go to one big company
and expect them to do everything for you. Like, yeah, great, a label can help
you market and help you get your stuff out there, help help you get playlisted,

(20:25):
whatever it might be. But then like you might want to go to the tech
expert and have them help, you know, push on. And again,
I'm not a tech person, so excuse my ignorance on the
technical side of the language here, but they can help, you know,
push the SEO behind the site and there's so the
metadata. There's so much more that you could do there. So we, that's actually a

(20:47):
very interesting question because it does come up and it's really not
discussed until it's in the contract. Right. Because I would have to imagine if
an artist, let's say they, they're like a mid level and they've got a few
hundred thousand subscribers, let's say just on their YouTube channel. I can
see why the label wants to take that from them because of course they're
monetizing all the content. So if they're putting out those videos on that

(21:08):
channel that's got, you know, half a million subscribers, that's stuff that they're
monetizing because clearly they can't monetize anymore on physical goods, as we
know, or any music. It's basically free. So. I see. I just, I
had, I was very curious about how that was structured into the deals.
But you know. Yeah, it's interesting to see that that's something that's negotiable.
Totally, totally. Yeah. No, I think like as YouTube and all these

(21:31):
user generated content platforms become like more
of the norm and where mass revenue is being generated, it's
not that it should be a highly negotiated aspect of the contract for
sure. So the data aspect of it, as you were mentioning, I think data is
king. As a lot of these labels know, the more data
they have on users, on fans, on everyone, the better. So it

(21:53):
is definitely something that they're looking to obtain
from artists. Yeah. You know what's so interesting in listening to both
of your answers on Eric's question is it makes
me realize that you know artists
and you guys know this from your profession but artists
themselves. Do you feel that artists today need to view their

(22:16):
career in music as a business, which is a different kind
of consciousness than most artists have. But as I'm listening to you, I'm
thinking this is something that's very, very important to
understanding if this is to be their career. I mean, it's.
Do you feel that artists need to be doing that? Okay, can you talk about
that? Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is. You're speaking to the

(22:37):
essence of. And I think you touched on this before in regard to, like, what
we kind of, you know, speak on when we're.
We're, you know, explaining our firm to
artists and businesses and whatnot. It's essentially
that at the end of the day, and artists don't like to hear this, but
you won't make it these days unless you treat yourself like a business. And that

(22:58):
goes down to forming an LLC and ensuring that you have a proper
entity supporting your infrastructure, to ensuring
that you have a team around you. Because these days, like,
sure, you can make it big independently and you can, you know, have a viral
hit and whatnot, but the. The artists that we're seeing that are really consistently
growing and, like, actually taking it to the next level have a team around them.

(23:20):
They have a manager, they have an attorney, they have a
business manager when it's time to handle their money and ensure that they're dealing with
that stuff properly. Because if you have a massive, you
know, a massive payment and you don't know how
to handle your money, and then you can't sustain yourself for the next year
because you now, you know, blew your money on clothes and a new

(23:42):
apartment and whatever it might be, and you don't have that money to
reinvest into the business and to help produce content for your
next release, to hire the producers that you need to help with,
you know, the music. And so it really, like,
forming an infrastructure around yourself is. Is super important
and understanding. And actually, we were listening to some of your podcasts,

(24:04):
and I think it's. It's something that you guys briefly touched on, but
understanding that sometimes you do have
to put out what the fans want to hear. And that's
business strategy. You might not artistically want to do that, but you
might need to make that move in order to get this specific show or to
get this booking. And so it really is more than just

(24:26):
art, unfortunately, these days. But I think there are enough people
on the business side of the industry and the legal side of the industry who
care enough to protect that art and say, how
can we help you do what you do, but, like, teach you that we need
to run this strategically and treat this as a
business model? Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to ask you guys,

(24:48):
you know, AI is quickly affecting so many areas of the music
industry and its impact, you know, varies. What would you
say are the biggest challenges and opportunities for artists,
labels and publishers moving forward? And do these vary with different
genres of music? Definitely, yeah. There's so much opportunity out there.
We're constantly seeing new platforms that are able to do very cool things

(25:11):
with music, and all of a sudden you're able to create seven songs in the
time it would have taken you to create one. And it's a very
exciting realm out there on both the artist and the business side. Of course, for
artists, it's, you know, we always, we have this question all the time where it's
kind of like, oh, like I used this platform, is, am I
okay? Like, is there any legal repercussions? And so it's very interesting because

(25:33):
we've been having to read a lot of terms and, you know,
website kind of content to see what the
implications are of the use of that. And of course, we always say
the. The copyright and like, the actual legal
structure is not quite set up to handle that.
Like, they're still very new. And just the way the law works, where it's kind

(25:54):
of like it's written and then it's. There's precedent sent by courts through
lawsuits and things like that, like, that's all so, so new and it takes time
and like, everything's developing so quickly in the meantime that
it's changing as it's being precedent being set. So it's just kind of a
wild circle that's happening. And so we're all, we almost say all the time that
it's like almost the music industry professionals and the people in the

(26:17):
industry now that are setting the tone for it. So the
advice that we give our artists is always, you know, make sure that there is
plenty of human contribution to it. Because if you use straight, just
AI, you're going to have a problem with copyright because that's kind of where it
is right now. If it's solely technical
technology or AI that creates the music, you're going to have

(26:38):
copyright protection problems. And also just to make sure that there is a name,
image and likeness component for labels and the business side,
it's a huge opportunity because all of a sudden, if you can have this
artist's voice, you know, on 50 different songs, when, like, they're
just one person, they can only be in, you know, so many sessions and all
this. So it just. It maximizes that potential that you. You have as a

(27:00):
label. But at the same time, it's like preserving that artist, brand
and in person. And so a lot of that is being handled now
preemptively and contracts kind of saying like, hey, this is the use
that I'm approving. This is what I need approval over, because there's all these
things that are coming out, and it's a very exciting opportunity on
both ends. There's a lot of potential revenue maximization

(27:23):
on the business side and also on the artist side, but there's definitely safeguards
that need to be in place, and it's sometimes difficult to foresee what can
happen, but it's an exciting place to kind of be learning and adding
as we go. Hey, insiders, we hope that you've been enjoying our featured
conversation. Stay tuned because we've got so much value coming your
way. But before we dive back in, a word from our sponsor. Hey,

(27:45):
Eric, as an artist, what do you find are the most challenging aspects
to a music career, especially when you're starting out? Well, I think one of the
first things is just trying to get the direction of who you are as an
artist, where you want to go, where you want to be. And, you know, we've
talked about it on the show a lot. Who is your target audience, who you
are, who. What do you stand for? What do you believe in? What do you

(28:06):
think would resonate with an audience? And so those are some of the things that
I would feel being a new artist. Obviously, what I know now, now is different
because I know these things, but for people that are out there, like our audience
that don't have necessarily any direction to go, would be the first things that I
would start off with. And having the songs
incorporate those elements that you're speaking of into it, that's

(28:26):
so important today. Yeah. And I think that's one of the reasons why we started
MUBUTV and why we started this new consulting service that we're offering to all of
our insiders out there. Because that is another one of the big things. I mean,
that is the big thing is like, having the great songs. That's what it really
starts off. Our friend Don Grierson always said it always starts with a great
song. So that's probably. Besides putting together what your

(28:47):
audience and what your target audience is, is the single most important thing. Where
are your songs at currently, today? Are you collaborating with people?
Are you trying to go out to Networking events where you can connect with other
songwriters and stuff like that. So, yeah. And what are your strengths
exactly? You know, are you a strong lyric writer? Are you strong
melody writer? Are you a strong musician? A player. Right. You know,

(29:09):
and it's really important to get, get really strong clarity on those
issues before proceeding. I totally agree, Rich. And you know, with our
consulting services, we offer a myriad of different packages that we've made
it super affordable for everybody. So, you know, if you guys are interested out there
and connecting with us on a coaching call, you can visit
book.moobutv.com and start off with a free

(29:31):
15 minute discovery call. Well, yeah, absolutely. That we start with an
initial 15 minute call where we can get a sense of who you are, what
are the issues that you specifically have and want to work
on. Exactly. And we can go from there. Absolutely. Yeah. And we tailor
everything to your needs. It's not like a cookie cutter thing. We kind of really
want to get to know who you are as an artist, where you at today,

(29:52):
what's the snapshot of you as an artist today, and then start trying
to craft something that's tailor made for you. So again, if you're interested,
Visit us at book.moobutv.com for your 15
minute discovery call. Yeah, most definitely. And you know, as
you guys were just speaking, as you were speaking about this, I was realizing
the, the technology is ahead of the law,

(30:14):
you know, right, right now, as you pointed out, you cannot
copyright a. An AI generated song. Generated
song. Yeah, it's, it's not, it's not allowed. I want to ask a
question that's related in that same field to, to, to you, which
is, you know, Web3 blockchain technology, smart
contracts, they've all been touted as revolutionary for music rights

(30:36):
management and offering transparency and direct payments. Are you
seeing the technologies truly make impact in
practice? And what legal considerations should artists keep
in mind when navigating these types of opportunities? Yeah,
I think that those are very exciting opportunities. There are kind of like
to have contracts and royalties and all that automated and kind

(30:58):
of just be done. So it's not like an accounting because again, as I'm sure
you've both seen in a number of industry contracts, there's always accounting
provisions where it's like where you have the right to check this and verify and
it's a procedure and all this kind of stuff. So I think that there is
a possibility of having these types of contracts and, you know, having it on the
blockchain and all that to to help eliminate maybe like the

(31:19):
guesswork there. And to be honest though, it's kind of been a
slow rollout. We're not seeing that being done a lot.
It's still being done pretty manually with, you know, like future
artist agreements and more release documents where it's being done kind of the way that
it's been done more so than it is like, hey, let's put a smart contract
in place. So I do think that that's where it's going and like there's a

(31:41):
lot of opportunity there. But on the same, you know, at the same time
there's a lot of gray area where people could get an edge if
they understand them better, understand how to program it. And you know, there's a lot
of technology behind it to where like if you're just agreeing to it and you're
not sure how it's being implemented, there just needs to be a lot more understanding,
I feel like, to make sure that it's actually being, you know, handled

(32:03):
correctly, you know, rather than the old fashioned way. I wanted to
ask you guys, do you advise artists to trademark their artist
name, logo and other brand assets in multiple territories? I would
assume the obvious being here in the US first or maybe even locally in their
state, going to the federal trademark. But beyond that, do you guys make those
recommendations? Particularly, I would assume, artists that are getting ready to sign a major label

(32:25):
deal. Absolutely. We always recommend getting a trademark, the
earlier the better. Sometimes it does take a while for it to go through. So
we always advise if you have a name that you really, really and you're intent
on using, or if you're already using it, it's always great to get a trademark
for it. We have had situations in the past where artists have
gone full out in marketing and usage of the name and

(32:47):
really gained a following and a reputation and then all of
a sudden they get a cease and desist letter or there's somebody else that's using
that name prior and they weren't aware of it, didn't trademark it,
and then it becomes, oh no, we either have to decide to
rebrand and stop usage, or enter into negotiations
and potentially pay a lot of money to keep the name. And it gives

(33:09):
the initial registrant all of the negotiation power
if they want to keep the name. So we definitely
advise trying to preempt those types of situations and getting the trademark
application in as early as possible, not only for names but
also for any kind of branding element. So for logos or
we even have artists that have, you know, they start their own labels or they

(33:31):
do some other kind of branding push, whether it be like live
shows or festivals, anything like that. And trademarking
those names, making sure that the full scope brand has protection,
will preempt those kinds of issues and situations in the future. It's
just being proactive rather than reactive, which we always
recommend. Yeah, absolutely. I believe one of those classes is like Class

(33:53):
41 for, you know, for marketing. Yeah. For
live performance. And I forget what the second one is for your branding and stuff.
I mean, only because I. That subject very well. Because I've run into problems in
the past and ever since that's happened. Yeah, yeah. And I've. I've
become kind of a trademark expert over the years because of some of the
issues. So. Yeah, I totally get it. Yeah. You know, I've

(34:15):
just been thinking as I'm listening to this conversation
that we're all having, it makes me realize, you know, there have been
so many changes in the music business.
And I'm thinking back to how we began our conversation with you,
you, which is the whole, I guess what we would call
philosophical outlook and, and identifying

(34:37):
of what wasn't in the market, which was the inspiration for
how the two of you formed your firm. And given that, I. I guess
what I'd love to know is how do you see the role
of music attorneys changing in the next.
You know, I'd say five years. Let's just go five years out. I mean, you
guys are on the front lines of this every day. So I'd be curious as

(34:59):
to how you see that role changing and evolving. This is an
awesome question because we're seeing this every
single day in the sense that, you know, we have clients that have worked with
big law, they've worked with, you know, solos, they
worked with all. They've had 10 plus attorneys throughout their
careers. And what they keep coming back to is they

(35:22):
want people who are more than just lawyers to
them, but they're counselors and. Or advisors for
a better word. And what that means to them is essentially like,
how can they. They want someone they could collaborate with, talk ideas through. We're getting
a lot of like, business consulting matters that tie in with
we role in the sense of like, we have, you know, a recording studio that's

(35:44):
looking to expand into the record label space. And so he wants to understand
how are, you know, record label structuring single deals
these days and like, how is this looking? So it's more than just like, hey,
can you draft this deal for me? This is what I negotiated. It's
how can you help me see how the markets are
shifting, how the trends are changing, and how can

(36:07):
you help me, you know, be on top of that? And it's interesting
and I see why they need that support. It's because of
everything that we've been talking about here. The industry is
moving much more quickly than I think a lot of people can stay on top
of. It's very confusing when, you know, they understood that maybe a deal
with structured this way for the last five years and then all of a sudden

(36:28):
now there's this shift happening. But they're on this one singular side of
the industry and they're not seeing this shift all over the space. So
as you know, attorneys in our position where we're seeing deals
from independent artists to major artists to,
you know, startup businesses to businesses that have been around
for many, many years and different facets of those

(36:50):
businesses were in the best position to give that advice
and to help them understand how, you know,
they should structure their businesses and how they can continue structuring
deals to keep up with the time. You know, I wanted to ask
this, this one's for both. I mean, they've all been both, both for both of
you guys. But a question that I have, you know, a lot of our audience

(37:11):
is comprised of people that are in different stages of their career, but probably say,
and Rich would probably agree with me, a lot of beginning artists, indie artists that
are just starting out and trying to learn as much as they can about the
industry. You know, for those guys that are out there, from a
legal standpoint, what tips or what, you know, I know what you're going to
say, but the first thing you're going to say is, but what would you be

(37:32):
telling them that don't have access currently to you guys in terms
of like, you know, obviously not signing things, but what other things you can give
that are like practical tips that they can use right now?
Well, I have one that's pretty obvious and I think that you guys are
very familiar because you've had him on your podcast. But we love Don Passman
books and just kind of having those resources

(37:54):
and self educating is always so powerful because
then if you don't have the luxury to pay somebody in order to give you
advice or to, you know, say, hey, this is my experience, this is what we
know and I'll let me handle this for you. There is
enough that you can do yourself in those very, very beginning stages to at
least, least understand the way that things work and

(38:16):
typical structures, things like that. And you Know, he obviously does a phenomenal
job of explaining it in, you know, layman's terms. What we call
it kind of like a more simple way to understand it than necessarily reading a
contract. Because sometimes contracts are written just in such a way that
most people are not meant to understand them. So definitely find resources. We
love podcasts. You know, kind of self education is a big one for that.

(38:38):
We promote. And also there are, you know,
attorneys like ourselves, and there are other attorneys out there who will
help developing artists. Even, like, we've done discussions
where, you know, the mom of a minor, 12, 13 years
old, who, the serious artist and, you know, cultivating his
career, wants to ask questions about how to register with sound exchange

(38:59):
and what's the purpose of the mlc and how does that differ from Harry Fox
and what's a pro and what's the difference between ad tech and bmi?
And I think there are attorneys who are willing to, you know,
help developing artists, even if it's just like, hey, let's do an
hour consult session and get all your questions ready and we can answer everything
you want. Right. And so I think that that's really valuable

(39:21):
as well, because it is important to understand how all of
these different organizations and, you know, things that you have
to sign up for and what they mean and why. Because at the end of
the day, if you're releasing music and you're not collecting on that
music that you're releasing, it's like you're doing all this work really, not for
nothing, but for very little. Right. And it's going into a black box and

(39:43):
you're never going to see that money. This was a perfect segue to the next
question. You know, you guys mentioned the Passman book, and, you know, we've had Don
on the show. But throughout your lives, have there been any other books besides
Don's great book or films or documentaries that you guys have found to be
particularly inspiring that you can share with the audience? Oh, so many. Yeah,
that's actually a great question. I'm trying to think of recently,

(40:05):
the most recent thing I watched that was more educational for myself
than, you know, necessarily. I guess it is pretty
inspiring, but it's just interesting. There was a documentary, not a
documentary, but like a limited series, I guess, on
how Spotify was built and, you know, what went into it. I
forget the name of it, but it was really interesting because it kind of showed

(40:26):
the whole revolution behind how the concept came about
and how it was created. And I think that's super interesting, especially now when all
these, these music based startups and tech companies are coming
to, to the surface here. Yeah, it's funny you bring that
up. You are the only person I have ever spoken
with and I've spoken to so many people in the music that nobody saw

(40:48):
that. No, I know the documentary. It wasn't a documentary. It was
a. It was like a four part. It was like a whole movie about
the history of Daniel Ek and how he started it and the challenges he
failed and the characters and the people behind and his struggles and
his. We'll find out for the show. You're absolutely right. It
was amazing. And I, I would have thought that that would have been like the

(41:10):
talk of every single music business party and everywhere I
went about four or five years ago. Nobody has seen
that. You're the only person I know who's ever seen that. And I'm so glad
you mentioned that because it's such an important. We'll find out what the title is
and share it on the show notes. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, that's
great. There's also a book which just came to memory.

(41:31):
Music, Money and Success by Jeff Braybach.
Yeah, the Braiback Brothers. We know. Well, yeah, really great guys.
Awesome book. When it, especially on the publishing side of things, it breaks it
down pretty. Pretty much in layman's terms. So definitely suggest that as well.
Yeah, that's a great one. I want to ask you, you
both sort of an. I guess it's a personal observational

(41:53):
question. You guys have worked with so many successful artists
in your time and businesses and I'm curious, what
specific qualities have you observed
in, you know, really successful artists, both
creatively and non. Creatively that you can share with
us? Yeah, I have a pretty big opinion

(42:16):
on this one and, and I think that creatives
tend to. A lot of the calls that we get are
creatives, obviously are creatives. So they have a million ideas, they have a million
visions, they have a million things they want to do. The most successful artists that
we see are the ones that are able to hone in on one of
those ideas and really execute because we have some artists

(42:39):
right now that are massively talented, have the potential to
be top producers globally. But they have the
three projects that their work artist project that they're working on. And because of that,
their energy split, their time is split. They're not able to fully encompass
that Persona. And so our advice always to,
you know, artists and then also even to people on the business side of things

(43:01):
as well, is to focus your energy in one
place. And really foster that, Treat it like your
baby, have it grow. And then once you have it in a
place where you feel comfortable, you've built the fan base, you have a
following, then you know, you can take a pivot. But I think it's when creatives
get overly excited in the idea of things that we

(43:23):
see that we see some issues. And it even comes
down to, like, the work that we're doing for clients. You know, they'll have a
start drafting sort of agreement because they want, you know, this type of
deal. And then all of a sudden the deal changes because it hasn't fully thought
it through. And it's. It's really just trying to focus your. Energy, you know,
further to that. It's also not letting the business side

(43:44):
of things, like, take the magic out of it for you and definitely educate
yourself, learn about it. But we've seen so many artists
be in situations where they maybe signed a bad deal in the beginning
and got stuck in the situation that they weren't loving, and it
kind of just drained them of all excitement and creativity.
And I think that can definitely happen. And it's heartbreaking when that happens and we

(44:06):
hate to see it. So I think it's, it's. But we have, like, some. We've
seen many success stories that have come out on the other side of it and,
like, figured out a way, you know, whether it be through negotiation or,
you know, whatever it may be, to kind of come out on the other side
and like, you know, rebrand, redo something and come out, you know,
no matter how many no's you get, just look for that one yes type of

(44:26):
thing. And so I think just, you know, staying strong through tough
situations is also a great quality and something that, that, you know, it's not always
easy, for sure. No, it's interesting. You know, I remember
last year in December, Eric and I had the pleasure of
interviewing Clive Davis, and we asked him that
question regarding his own career. And he said, you know, you have

(44:49):
to have resilience, you have to have
grit, you have to have a very, very strong work ethic. You
know, in a time when nobody believes in you,
you know, and you're being fired, you know, it's. It's. It's
absolutely essential. And he says, you know, it's hard to do. He. He used
to. I used to work for Clive years ago, and he used to say, you

(45:11):
know, if all it took to have the career of like a Whitney Houston
was just a great voice, he said, you know, right.
Half. Half the world Half the world would be, you know, successful
artists. Yeah. He said it's maybe 1, 1, 1 of 10
qualities that you need, you know, determination,
grit, the drive, a strong work ethic,

(45:33):
a commitment, you know, a relentlessness. It's, it's, you know, not at
the expense, like you were saying, of, of your creativity, but there
has to be that drive. And, you know, Eric and I always say, you know,
Andy Gould, who's a renowned manager who managed Rob
Zombie and many others for many years, he always had that famous expression,
I can never want it more than you. And he used

(45:55):
to talk about how when he would see that in it with a client, he
said, there's nothing more heartbreaking. When I would
realize I wanted the success for my client more
than they wanted it, he said, it's absolutely heartbreaking. Yeah,
you cannot be the. You cannot be the artist. You can't write the songs,
you can't perform, and you have to let it go. And he said, you

(46:18):
know, he experienced that twice in his career, and he said it was the most
heartbreaking thing he'd ever been through, through, you know, after having such
belief. But, you know, it's, it's. It's very interesting from
that perspective. I asked you guys earlier about, you know, what legal steps
or not legal steps, but legal advice that they should or should not be doing.
But this is more of a general, broader one for artists. What advice do you

(46:38):
have for music, Music artists who are committed to building a career in
today's music industry? That's a good one. So I think
that setting yourself up with a foundation is really important. We kind of
touched on this before, but making sure that you do have that business
structure ready to go is definitely great, because
then at least you don't have to worry about that. And then slowly building out

(47:00):
the team and kind of setting yourself up is the advice that I
would generally give. And of course, doing as much as you can
yourself, because like you're saying that's 100% true. No one can. Even if you
have the best team in the world and the best, you know, management in the
world, like, they can't do it for you. So making sure
to surround yourself with people that also believe in the

(47:22):
vision and are aspiring and energized about the project is definitely
what I would say, you know, to look for as a developing artist, because it's
going to keep that momentum and that drive going, and then the rest kind of
comes in baby steps. And we say this too, like, when artists come to
us, it's like There's a hundred things that you could do. Like you
could, you know, make yourself all these agreement templates and do this, and

(47:43):
that was. That would set you up for sure. But you can also take it
slowly and kind of like, start out with, you know, the major, major things. And
then as you grow, you can add on and kind of, you know,
build out your brand, build out your foundation to the point
where it's sustainable and there's options. How
do people reach you if. If they want to get in touch with.

(48:05):
With your firm and perhaps do business or reach out? What's the best
way for them to do that? Yeah, so I'll. I'll jump in here. We
have a very long firm name, but email is typically the best,
and it would be
info@shortscriber.com
that's S C H W A R T
v S C

(48:26):
H-R-E-I-B-E-R.com is
absolutely the best way. We're constantly on our emails every single
day. Wonderful. Wonderful. We'll put that in. And we'll
also put, you know, the connection to the website and everything in. In the
show. In the show notes. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. We want to thank you so
much for coming on and taking the time to do this. Really excited to have

(48:47):
you guys on the show. Very exciting, and it's been very, very enlightening
and I think very, very necessary. I. I love that we're speaking
to attorneys who are on the cutting edge of so much of this,
who are working with artists who are doing very, very interesting kind of
work in the areas that we've been talking about, as well as companies,
you know, labels you mentioned, publishers, sink company that

(49:10):
are also, you know, because the laws and the. And the outlines of. Of
business opportunities for them are changing just as much as they are for artists.
Yeah. So we thank you so much for doing it. And also, you guys are
in my hometown, so any. Any support that I can give to my hometown of
Miami. So it's great to see you guys, you know, tearing it up in
Miami. Yeah, I did notice that with the 305

(49:31):
number. Yes, yes. 305 for life. We're excited about
the growth. Yeah, it's really exploding down here, so we're
very excited about it. We appreciate you guys, too. It's unbelievable to see what you've
done and you've educated so many people, and we can just feel the passion. So
we appreciate everything you're doing, and it's awesome. Well, it's.
It's due to it's due to people like yourselves who are willing to take the

(49:53):
time and the energy and come on and. And do this. You know, we're only
half the equation, and you guys are the other half. So we thank
you so much for. For sharing your knowledge, knowledge and information and
commitment to. To artists. So thank you. Thank you guys so much.
We really appreciate it. Wow. Yeah. What an
incredible conversation. I mean, I loved this

(50:15):
conversation with Alexis and Brianna for many, many reasons.
Number one, these are two attorneys that really get the reality
of the music business in 2025. Okay. They get the. The
market of today and their philosophy, their thinking
reflects that. Reflects that exactly. And I love that
because they're not just doing a job. They're understanding

(50:37):
the nature of the culture of music in the world that they're representing.
One of the things that I thought was most interesting specifically to their.
To their work was how they discussed the evolving nature of deals,
how, you know, traditional contracts and revenue structures have evolved
with streaming and that there are no more traditional record
contract deals. You know, there's. That artists today have to build their own

(51:00):
community and how this very factor does affect
the kinds of deals that they will and won't ask
for. But having an understanding of that, rather than just, you know,
traditional cookie cutter kinds. Right. You know, records,
publishing, merch, whatever, that each situation is different. And when
we look at a lot of artists today who have those kinds of things,

(51:21):
where is their strength? Why is the deal different for so. And. Well, the
reason it's different is because this artist has built something. Something very unique. And how
they discussed those things, I thought was very, very interesting and
very astute as well. Yeah, I agree. And also
another area which I thought was really. I mean, there was a treasure trove. I
mean, anybody that's listening to this should go back and listen to this episode over

(51:43):
again, because there were so many things that were discussed on here on so many
levels that it's super important to go back and revisit. One of them was
the shifts in fan monetization. Alexis noted that the importance
for artists and building fan communities on platforms like Patreon
and Discord provides leverage in negotiations. However,
platforms are rapidly evolving, presenting a challenge in contractual

(52:05):
language, especially regarding territories like the
Metaverse. I mean, these are all things that are like, so.
I mean, everything is changing so quickly, and with the music business, it's. It's
rapidly changing. And I thought that this is an important area
to discuss on the show because there are. You can't
monetize, really, your music Anymore, it's a lost leader. It's like

(52:27):
walking into the old Best Buy. Whoever goes into Best
Buys these days, and you used to go. And, you know, when they were selling
CDs or video games, you would go in there and look for that.
But what they really wanted you to go into was to go buy the washing
machine and the, you know, refrigerator. That's what's called a loss
leader. And so now our loss leader in this business is the music.

(52:49):
It's just a given. It's free. I don't care what you're talking about. You're giving
away that music. Whether you're Beyonce, Taylor Swift, or whether you're
Joe Blow on the sidewalk, you are giving away that music for free, basically.
And so the idea of monetization in these other
areas, such of, you know, platforms like Patreon and Discord, these
are areas where you can really think about your

(53:11):
different revenue streams and how you can monetize those and
build other revenue streams and how important that is. Going into
negotiations with a major labor or a major independent.
Absolutely. And to add what you're saying, you know, they talk about how
those new platforms that you mentioned, you know, whether it's the whole
thing of Meta or the whole thing of gaming or the whole thing

(53:32):
of, you know, Discord, I mean, these are new
platforms that maybe right now in this, you
know, aren't making a fortune, but they will. Right? Look
at Roblox. Right, Exactly. With the Metaverse. The Metaverse,
these other platforms that have hundreds of
thousands, millions, which is part. Of Web 3.0, where you're

(53:53):
seeing companies that are buying stakes into the
Metaverse. It's almost like virtual pieces of real estate.
Correct. And that's what's been going on now for the last few years. It hasn't
really. It's here already, and there's a lot of people that are in that
world, but it hasn't hit critical mass yet. We haven't gotten there yet.
It's. It's coming. Web 3.0, blockchain, and all of

(54:15):
these other areas that we've talked about in this episode are things that
have not come into the culture yet. But it's coming. And. And it's going
to get there. Absolutely, Eric. I couldn't agree more. And if
you are a smart artist, which I know that all of you ladies and
gentlemen out there are who are listening to this, you. You have
to plan for the future. And guess what? The future

(54:38):
is here. Hey, insiders, thanks so much for tuning into this episode.
We really appreciate it. To get show notes, links and everything that
was mentioned during this interview, head on over to our Official
website at
mubutv.com/podcast/shownotes if you're enjoying the content and what
we're doing here on the show, please subscribe to the podcast on Apple

(54:58):
Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts from.
And don't forget to rate and review our show at iTunes. Five star reviews
are always welcome and help to ensure that our podcast stands out on the
top rated and new and noteworthy charts on itunes and our
space. You can also find us at social media at Facebook,
Instagram, TikTok and Twitter X, all ending with the

(55:20):
handle mubutv, which is spelled M U B U T V. Don't
forget to catch our flagship show, the MUBUTV Music Business
Insider Video Series airing every week on YouTube at
youtube.com/mubutv this
show was produced and created by Ritch Esra and Eric Knight, theme music
by Disciples of Babylon and be sure to tune in next week for another

(55:42):
episode of the MUBUTV Music Business Insider Podcast.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce

24/7 News: The Latest

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}How Are Music Lawyers Revolutionizing Artist Deals in 2025? With Brianna Schwartz and Alexis Schreiber From Schwartz & Schreiber Law Firm

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce

24/7 News: The Latest

All Episodes

How Are Music Lawyers Revolutionizing Artist Deals in 2025? With Brianna Schwartz and Alexis Schreiber From Schwartz & Schreiber Law Firm

Stuff You Should Know