How Top Booking Agents REALLY Spot Breakout Artists – Secrets from Ben Hogan - United Talent Agency - Music Business Insider Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
On today's podcast, we sit down with veteran music agent, Ben Hogan,

(00:03):
from United Talent Agency. Ben shares insights on the true importance
of live music, his unique path into the industry, and the
creative inspirations that drive him. We'll also dive in into how
impactful documentaries like Stop Making Sense influenced his career
and why fiction is often more beneficial than nonfiction
guides in this business. If you're an aspiring agent or just wanna

(00:25):
understand the realities of the music world, this is one conversation
you can't afford to miss. Insiders, are you ready?
Welcome to MUBUTV's Music Business Insider Podcast,
where our mission is to educate, empower, and engage artists
and music business professionals who are dedicated to having a successful
career in the new music industry. Here are your hosts,

(00:48):
Ritch Esra and Eric Knight. Welcome back, insiders, to
another episode of the MUBUTV Music Business Insider
Podcast, where our mission is to educate, empower, and engage
your music career. On today's episode, we welcome veteran
music agent from UTA, Ben Hogan. For a raw and
unfiltered conversation, we dive into the crucial role of live

(01:10):
music in building a long lasting music career as noted
by the legendary Arthur Fogel. Ben also shares his
unique inspiration from films like Blues Brothers, Almost
Famous, and the documentary Stop Making Sense, and how watching
concert documentaries played a vital role in his desire to be a
music agent. We explore the personal experiences that he's

(01:32):
had, touching on his own journey from swimmer to music promoter
and how early career exposure can be more beneficial than
traditional education in this industry. Ben also breaks down the
role of an agent in an artist's early career and discusses the
educational value in documentaries of major music festivals
like EDC Las Vegas and Coachella. You won't wanna miss his

(01:54):
insightful advice on networking, the importance of a strong team, and
why real world experience trumps textbook knowledge. Stay
tuned because this episode is packed with valuable advice and insider
tips that will set you on the path to success in the music industry.
But first, a word from our sponsor. Hey, insiders. Are you an
aspiring musician, artist, band, or future music business

(02:16):
professional looking to take your career to the next level? Well, look no
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(02:38):
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looking to elevate your existing career, we've got you covered. Our comprehensive
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(03:00):
personalized just for you. And here's the best part. We offer
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(03:44):
experience that will elevate your music career. That's
book.mubutv.com. Hi.
This is Nick Holmsten. I'm the author of the book Fan Powered Futures, and you're
listening to the MUBUTV Music Business Insider
Podcast. Welcome back, Insiders. Today's featured guest is music
agent Ben Hogan from UTA, which is United Talent

(04:06):
Agency. And this was a very, very interesting conversation. I
you know, we've been wanting to have an agent on Yeah. From a From a
major agent too, and I'm the one of the biggest agencies in the world. So
And the reason is is because this is from an entirely different side of the
business. Right. Okay? And I would say, and I'd like to emphasize, one of
the most important. Yep. Okay? And the thing that I thought was so

(04:26):
interesting about this is how he discusses the disparity between an
artist's success on streaming platforms and their success in live
performances. And, you know, it highlights sort of the significant
difference in in the latter aspect of an
artist's career, which is basically saying if you can build a career
live, you will always have a career. But, you know, on records, you

(04:48):
don't necessarily have that kind of staying power. And
we've seen that for you know, we can talk here till breakfast about
the examples that we could give over the last decade. People that have had two,
three, four, five hundred million streams Right. But Can't fill an
arena. Can't fill a theater. A club. Right. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I I thought
one of the other examples of artist examples that he mentions are,

(05:10):
like, artists like Excision and Black Tiger Sex Machine as
examples of how a focus on creating immersive live
experiences contributes to touring success. And I think there was another agent or somebody
not another agent, but somebody else that we had in that world. Was it from
Black Box? I can't remember now his name. Peter. Peter. Yes. Yeah. From
from Earth to Peter. To Peter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where he talks about that whole

(05:31):
immersive artist experience, how these guys are building cottage industries
onto themselves where they're building their own music festivals, and they're building
these different experiences, to continue to add to their
different verticals. Yeah. Absolutely. And and what's so fascinating about
what you're saying is that that's the core of it. They are attracting a
audience that's not only into them, but as you just pointed out, is able

(05:53):
to bring in other aspects, festivals, for example. So you're
buying into a brand. You're buying into a consciousness. You're buying into
a level of taste, and people have built entire industries on that. The
other thing that I thought was really interesting about what he talked about is
how so many artists today are building careers that you and I
have never heard of Right. And that the public has never heard of. You know,

(06:15):
I I talk about this a lot with my students and, you know, maybe you
guys, insiders, you know, do you all know who Russ is? If you
don't, okay. That's fine. Do you know who the Yaya Yas
are? I mean, these are people who are not on People magazine or at the
top of the Billboard charts or even having hit records. For that matter, Frank
Ocean isn't either, but he talked about how a lot of those artists are able

(06:36):
to successfully build careers via live versus
having, you know, streaming hits and vice versa. So Yeah. And it goes
right into my point about rising artists. Ben highlighted how newer artists
can achieve significant success live be before becoming widely
known, citing Russ as you just mentioned Yeah. And selling out the Hollywood
Bowl as an example of effective audience engagement. Yeah.

(06:59):
Absolutely. This this is a very, very interesting conversation and one that I
think highlights an aspect that is very important for you guys
as insiders to know, which is the fact that today, you
really can't have a career, a full music
career without the component of live performance. That's
absolutely crucial. And with that, insiders, sit back, relax,

(07:21):
and enjoy our featured conversation with Ben Hogan.
Ben, welcome. Hey. How's it going? Going good. Going good. How are
you? I'm doing quite well. Thank you for asking, and thanks for having me
today and taking the time. I'm excited to, dig in. We're
very excited to be talking to you as well. You know, we always like to
start these conversations with the question, when did you know

(07:43):
that a music career was gonna be your professional career
path? Well, it was it was early for me in in a unique
way. I mean, I I grew up my parents didn't play music,
but I grew up listening to music, playing music. I was playing
instruments around our house and playing piano at my grandma's house
by the time I was, like, three or four years old. And, you know, as

(08:05):
I developed and got a little older, I moved into brass. I actually
played euphonium, which is, like, a smaller tuba and played
jazz trombone and played in a jazz band all through high school. So to be
honest, I think when I was an early teenager or, like, even in
adolescence, I kind of viewed music as the
most powerful commodity for me, most powerful utility. It

(08:27):
was the way to express myself, and I and I love music.
And even in high school, you know, I was kind of fervently
listening to electronic music, and I would've identified as, you
know, a raver if you would ask me when I was 16, 17 years old.
So I think it was kind of formative. Music was a formative and very
passionate thing for me. You know, I was also an athlete and ultimately

(08:50):
had to choose between music and swimming. I was a
competitive swimmer. So for a brief period in early college, I was, like,
a division one swimmer, and that kinda dominated my life. And, you know, you
spend six to eight hours a day kind of involved and engrossed in that
world. But, ultimately, I I my calling kind of
responded and and got me back into electronic music.

(09:11):
And, you know, from the age of 17, 18, I was
more focused on that than anything else and ultimately,
you know, decided to stop swimming and go full time into kind
of electronic music as a promoter. So I I would say it was
pretty early on that I knew I'd be doing something in music. And then by
age 17, 18, all I could really think about was

(09:34):
electronic music and that culture and kind of, you know, what I could
potentially achieve in that space. Ben, thanks so much for joining us. This
is Eric. I I wanted to ask you, how would you describe the role of
the agent in an artist's career today, and at what point do you
feel does an artist need an agent? Well, I you know, I would say
that agents have become immeasurably important

(09:56):
from the onset of a career. I mean, as you both probably
know, you know, an artist's ability to actually
make and generate revenue from the early days can
be absurdly crucial to growth. And whereas in
traditional music genres, I would say, almost universally,
a label would become involved in the early days, that's not

(10:19):
typically the case in electronic music, which is really my specialty
and where I started. And so, you know, as I kind of entered the agent
world, I realized how crucial agents can be. I mean, oftentimes,
an agent early on bringing you, you know, a few key
offers or bringing you even just sustainable income in
three to five gigs a month can be, you know,

(10:41):
really the difference maker and can be the business for early day
growth. It's a way to fund yourself, and artists now are relying incredibly
on live touring revenue as a part of their overall rev model. So, you
know, having the right agent in place early on in your career is
is crucial, and it it could not be more important. The
caveat to that, I would say, is that if you have an agent too early

(11:03):
before you really are generating any demand as an artist, They can even
become a hindrance or it can be, you know, at the very least, unnecessary.
There's definitely a crossroads as an artist where,
you know, really, agents should be reaching out to you or, really,
managers should be reaching out to you. Your music and your
art should be attracting those in the industry, and that really

(11:26):
is, you know, your biggest sign as an artist that it's time to team
up. But I think I think an agent is crucial early on,
and I think that, you know, if you're releasing music and people are
listening to it and fans are communicating with you, an
agent can exist at that point to, you know,
give energy to that audience and to capture that audience

(11:49):
and and really, you know, to just help that
crucial early stage of your career in terms of a
planning, forecasting role. You
know? Yeah. You know, it it's it's so interesting, Ben, listening to
you because I I think what you said you you said a lot there, you
know, in terms of what is expected of an artist. And I think when I

(12:11):
say a lot, I mean, it's the idea that I've had this belief. I've I've
been in the business for forty seven years this year, and the one
thing that I see is is exactly what you addressed right now is that
the expectation of the artist in the early stages of their
career, even to the point you made just now, has to be at a
level where, you know, before an agent can even get involved or or

(12:33):
is involved or a manager as you mentioned, there has to be some kind of
income generating element. And I think you know and you've
been in it long enough to know that the idea of what
that actually takes from zero to whatever it is to where that's
happening is a lot. And I think that there's this disconnect. I
I consistently see this disconnect among new artists who have, you

(12:54):
know, an a wrong assumption that an agent will give me a
career. A manager will give me a career. That is
just not the case. And so I'm so glad that you brought that up. And
and on that subject, I I wanted to ask us, talk to us about the
personal I mean, I I mean, I I understand from
the professional point of view and from, you know, Musically and and what you

(13:15):
had just said, what you're looking for, you know, somebody who's generating, somebody who's
ready, but let's go deeper into that. Talk to us about the personal,
the non creative qualities that you as an agent are looking for in
a new artist. You know, the the the Yeah. Absolutely. Those are
important. I mean, look. There yeah. There's so many
intangibles outside of the music being created or,

(13:37):
for lack of a better term, the product Yep. In our business. When I'm looking
for an artist, when I'm listening to an artist's music, I'm
already thinking about what that artist is like as a person,
how that artist carries themselves, frankly, how
how intelligent that artist is going to be as a human being. Is there
raw intelligence and business savvy there? As a creative, is

(14:00):
the artist extroverted or introverted? Do they share their creation? Are they able
to communicate that? You know, those things are definitely
incredibly important, I would say. You know, I wanna work with artists
on a creative level as an agent. You know, I we don't necessarily
or typically want to just be sending offers and generating revenue. This
is a creative job. I mean, I was speaking about my history as, like, an

(14:22):
artist and playing trombone and playing a jazz band. Like, that's part of it for
me as an agent. I still wanna be able to create. So we're looking for
artists that we frankly are collaborating with. So I don't think it's
any different from, you know, being an artist and looking for other
other DJs, other producers, other musicians to collaborate
with. You're looking for somebody who you really feel you can work with

(14:44):
and that somebody who really has a a vision that you
can help accentuate. I would say on another level, you're
also looking for someone who is very likable and who, you
know, can be or is a rock star, for lack of a
better term. You're looking for someone who has it, you know, who has that je
ne sais quoi as an individual that's going to attract

(15:06):
an audience, someone who's going to be able to deliver their message
effectively. So even on the first Zoom call with an artist, even in the
first communications over email, you're starting to get an idea for who
this person is. You know? Are promoters going to like them? Are their
fans going to love and adore and follow them to the ends of the earth?
You know, you're you're looking for someone who's extraordinary in their own

(15:28):
respect and someone who you feel will add to,
you know, or or help create a positive kind of
energy field around themselves. Yeah. It's it's really important,
and it's a great segue segue to this next question, Ben. You know, how
important is an artist team when you're considering signing them?
We talked about the intangibles, the noncreative qualities. How important is that to you when

(15:51):
you're considering signing consideration? You know, the team is
is vastly important. When you're working on you know, as an agent,
I may speak to, you know, the the managers that I work the
most with multiple times a day. I may speak to them at two in
the morning on a Friday night or a a Saturday morning. I may speak to
them, you know, in the middle of a vacation. These are people who are

(16:13):
essentially members of, like, a new family that's being created in
the signing and growing process. So the team that surrounds an
artist is incredibly important. You want
an artist to surround themselves with a manager who cares about them, who cares
about their health, who cares about them as a person, and who also is
business savvy and wants to build and generate a long story. Right?

(16:36):
We're all telling a collective story together. The agent's a big part of
that. I wanna work with a team that I that I love and adore, and
also a team that's effective. So you want a manager who's present. You want an
artist who's present. We're considering all of those things when we
are looking for new talent. Oftentimes, you know, the
relationships that you build in this career, managers and agents have great relationships.

(16:57):
We talk about potential artists all the time. And so you build
these, you know, this great rapport with your trusted colleagues, but also, you
know, at the same time, you're gonna meet a new manager. You're gonna meet
somebody young who's working with a brand new talent. And so
you're always looking for similar qualities. We're looking for folks who
are really going to, you know, mesh well

(17:19):
with the existing infrastructure of the live touring
business. You don't have to name names, but have you ever
in your career passed on a client that you might have been
interested in because you felt the team was something that you just couldn't work
with? Probably, yes. I would say almost every agent in the
world. I would I would assume, but certainly for me, yeah, there are times

(17:41):
where the music might be great. The career might
be about to explode. We discuss
internally as a group, and we look at something, and and maybe the team's not
a fit. I don't necessarily think it would be a deal breaker to me. I
mean, for for me personally as an agent, I think that any
group of human beings can work well together. And I think it all depends

(18:02):
on, you know, what what the goal if there is a shared
collective goal, I wouldn't say there's anyone in the industry right now that I
don't work with or wouldn't work with. But the team certainly
weighs in on the decision of how much energy is gonna be exerted
in, you know, trying to form a working relationship. I think it's
certainly in the music industry folks get and hold

(18:24):
their reputation. And so you in an ideal situation,
if I'm gonna work with someone as an artist and I'm gonna work with that
manager every day, every week, every month of my life, you wanna work with people
who are are well liked and established and have, you know, people
have great things to say about them. That that's the ideal situation.
And, certainly, what we're looking for is, you know, to to grow

(18:45):
on great reputation. And that's why, you know,
artists are so drawn to, you know, the best
managers and the best agents or the most prolific because, you know,
it takes time and energy to to build a positive
reputation, and it's not the easiest thing to do in the music
industry. We have to make tough decisions. We have to disappoint

(19:07):
people some sometimes. There's usually two promoters who want
you as an artist in their market, and one of them is going to get
the show every time. So it's a tough landscape to navigate.
Those who do it best and who kind of walk softly and carry
a big stick, those those folks are typically the ones who artists
wanna work with, and the same is true for us as agents. You know,

(19:29):
I I wanna reverse this now. Tell me from from your
opinion, what are the questions that an artist needs to
be asking when selecting an agent? Let's say, you know, there's maybe
two or three agents that are after them, which could be the case in in
a scenario where an artist is coming up and generating the kinds of things you're
talking about. What, from your point of view, are some of the things they should

(19:50):
be asking an agent when when making that decision? Yeah. I mean, I I
think as an artist, you have to put you have to put yourself
in the shoes of your audience oftentimes.
So, you know, as an artist, do you have to look at your agent and
say, do I want this person representing me? Do I want this person
to be my mouthpiece? Do I want this person to be my loudspeaker?

(20:12):
You know, does this person carry themselves with grace? Are they kind and
polite? Are they attentive to detail? You know, artists need to look at their
agents in the same way the agent is kind of interviewing and prospecting. For
artists, they have to do the same on the agent side. And, you know, look.
If you're doing something right, you probably will have multiple
agents to talk to when you come to that crucial signing period in your

(20:33):
career. And I think it's good for artists to
explore different options, but I also think it can be good to just go
with your gut. I mean, it I think picking an agent, picking a manager
is very much like picking a partner in life. Like, you are really making a
commitment. You're really looking at someone as an
extension of yourself, And so you really should

(20:55):
be looking at that person's character. You should be asking
them questions like, how do you, you know, how do you carry adversity? How do
you deal with adversity? Do you scream at promoters and threaten
them, or do you work it out? You know? I think there's a there's quite
a lot of that going on in the music industry, the kind of, you know,
tough guy mentality. And for me, you know, I've always worked well with

(21:15):
artists because that's not really my ethos. So, you know, a number
of the artists that I've signed and worked with and built careers with, I think
they signed with me and stayed with me ultimately because, you know, I I
got along with the general industry. It was well, like, was
able to communicate effectively, you know, had qualities that
that they looked up to. Right? I think that's ideally, as an

(21:38):
artist, what you need to be looking for in an agent. You should be proud
of your agent. You should be proud of their behavior. So that's the
ideal situation, and I think artists should be very mindful
about the personality and the the business kind of
acumen and ethos of the agent you're signing with. Because, ultimately,
as an artist in the live touring world, you know, your agent

(22:00):
speaks for you. Your agent represents you and
ultimately is the conduit to, you know, the folks who
are paying you money. So it needs to be a great working
relationship, and it should be an agent who reminds you somewhat of
yourself. It's so interesting, you know, as you're speaking, I'm remembering a time when
when Eric and I do do you know who John Kolodner is? Do not know

(22:21):
personally. I know the name. Okay. He he was the legendary a and r guy
at Geffen, and, you know, he signed all of these great artists and
so forth. And he told a story once that, you know, early in his
career when he when Geffen Records was formed, he desperately wanted to sign
Ozzy Osbourne. Ozzy had just left, you know, Black Sabbath. He wanted to have him
as a solo artist. He believed in him, and he went to David Geffen. And

(22:43):
David said, absolutely not. I will not, under any circumstances,
do business with Don Arden, who was the manager. And they knew
they knew that Ozzy was gonna be big, but David had that that element
that you're talking about. Like, that was his, you know, like,
bottom line. Like, I'm I'm willing to pass on an on an act
if this is the because of, I think, the point that you made, which was

(23:05):
what reminded me of this, where you said, well, you have to work with this
act day in and day out in their management. He just was like, no.
I'm not willing to do it. And the other time that I remember that happening
was when an a and r person said, you know, they they had
found this band. They knew that the band was great. They felt that they were
they were destined for great things. This was before they got signed, and

(23:26):
they wouldn't do it because the the the guy did not get along with the
lead singer. He knew he could never work with the singer. And I asked the
guy, I said, you know, who is this? And he said, it's a band called
Jane's Addiction, and you're gonna be hearing a lot about them. And this was back
in the eighties. So, you know irony of what's happened now recently. Yes.
Perry and yeah. Yeah. That's a very, very timely tale. Very
timely. But but it's just it goes right to the heart of your point where,

(23:50):
you know, people and and, you know, people make decisions, I
think. You know, it's like it's what what's that that expression? You know, the life's
too short, you know, and and and you you make certain determinations
one way or another. I remember Arnold Stiefel, the manager of Rod Stewart for years,
managed Morrissey for, I think, three weeks. This was
I remember in the eighties, '3 weeks, and I used to know Arnold's assistant very

(24:12):
well. And they said, you know, that was it. That that was enough time to
to to realize this is not a client for me. This is just
not a client for me. So Well, I was gonna say as you're speaking about
that, I mean, I think the overarching thing to bring up is that the music
industry is deceptively small, and folks talk.
And, you know, generally speaking, once you've been around the music industry

(24:34):
for five, ten years, you kinda know everybody. It's a very small, tight
knit community, and then it's also kind of separated by genre
in a lot of ways. You know, you've got your kind of, for lack of
a better term, hip hop agents or rock agents or that's a pop agent or
he's a dance agent. You know, oftentimes, we do kind of define
ourselves by what we represent, or a manager may define themselves by what

(24:54):
they represent. And so it's even more segmented and
even smaller to a certain degree. Everybody in electronic music
knows one another. Right. We all see each other more than we see
our families for holidays. You know, we spend a lot of time together.
So, you know, if an agent, for example, gets on the
phone, screams at a big promoter, threatens them, makes a scene, does something

(25:16):
goofy, we kinda hear about it. Everybody talks about it. So you really
have to you have to act right and and take care of the people who
are taking care of you. And, again, that's a very delicate dance
to to partake in over years when you're dealing with a very stressful
environment and when everybody wants different things. But,
ultimately, those who do it well gain that reputation thing. And and, you know, again,

(25:38):
to to your point on your stories, there are definitely
situations where, you know, someone may just not wanna even explore
what would otherwise be a fantastic artist to work on based on, you
know, how they surround themselves or how they carry themselves. I couldn't agree
more. You know, Ben, I wanted to ask you, beyond booking, are you
directly involved in any creative strategies or initiatives for any of your clients?

(26:00):
Well, you know, it's I first of all, I would I would say yes. And
I would say that over the last fifteen years, that's been not a
calling card, but kind of a defining role for me in a lot of different
ways. I mean, you know, booking is an interesting term. Like, I I don't know
if I've been creative outside of booking because, you know, as an agent, that's our
main focus. But, certainly, you know, I have been

(26:23):
an agent who will help, you know, determine artwork
and branding elements of a tour and determine, you know, the types of shows
we should be doing or doing you know, working on a specific vertical or
bringing a certain opportunity that an artist doesn't bring to you. I mean,
agents have to be creative. We we have to create, you know,
wealth. We have to create stories, and the best agents are the

(26:45):
most effective with that. So, certainly, I've been in a position
to, you know, name a tour and come up with a tour concept and
help create the tour artwork, and that all then feeds into the artist's
actual overall brand. Certainly, you know, during COVID,
for example, we had to be very creative as agents because our
ability to book was stripped from us. So what do you do if you're someone's

(27:07):
agent and there are no shows on planet Earth anywhere? You have to then
you you better be creative at that point, right, in order to kind of earn
your keep and keep that relationship going. So during COVID, for example, I mean, I
and at Flander that I worked with, you know, we we went out into the
the desert at at Black Rock City where Burning Man happens, and we
partnered with Twitch. And we brought a massive art

(27:30):
installation called the Medusa that was, like, a hundred big fat
snake heads that shot fire out. And we filmed, like,
essentially a digital festival that streamed to Twitch's audience
in the middle of the desert, in the middle of the pandemic. And it was,
you know, wildly effective, and millions of people saw it, and the artist posted
their full sets on YouTube after. And, you know, there's a great

(27:51):
strategic partnership with Twitch that UTA helped to facilitate.
And, you know, we were able to to fund, you know, a
extreme amount of production cost and travel cost and all of that and
actually make a moment happen when, you know, again, there were no shows
anywhere. Agents have to be creative, and that was definitely a process that I
was heavily involved with from inception to execution.

(28:13):
So, you know, I think the the bottom line is, you
know, yes. We are agent a good agent, when you sign with a great agent,
a good agent, they should be able to, you know,
be in the picture creatively. And I think that depends on the artist. It
depends on the manager. Certainly, there are some artists who say this is what we're
doing and just go facilitate this by booking it. But as an

(28:34):
agent, I certainly try not to be the guy who just hits
forward on offers and just brings you, here's your schedule, and that's it.
I mean, I think for UTA, we're constantly trying to be
involved in all facets of a career and ultimately bringing
ideas. Like, that is part of our profession, is to
bring fresh ideas, fresh energy, and kind of add

(28:56):
fuel to the fire and avoid being passive and
just responding to the demand that exists. You know? Great
agents are able to accentuate demand. Maybe
not create it, you know, from a traditional term. We're not
gonna come and collaborate with you on your record in most cases or sing
on your song. But if we're creative and if our ear

(29:18):
is close to the ground and if we're effective, we can bring
ideas and accentuate and kind of, you know, help
get to the next level, help take a a simple, hey. We're
doing a merch drop and make it something bigger by turning it into a pop
up or, you know, taking a concert that's sold out, adding three
shows around it that are after parties and pre parties and pop ups and just

(29:40):
taking something that exists in the product and the music and the artist
and then adding something unexpected or new to
to, you know, to add a little bit of, a little bit of
excellence on top. Right? Hey, Insiders. We hope that you've been
enjoying our featured conversation. Stay tuned because we've got so much
value coming your way. But But before we dive back in, a word from our

(30:02):
sponsor. Hey, Eric. As an artist, what do you find are the most challenging
aspects to a music career especially when you're starting out? Well, I
think one of the first things is just trying to get the direction of who
you are as an artist, where you wanna go, where you wanna be and you
know, we've talked about it on the show a lot. Who is your target audience?
Who you are? Who what do you stand for? What do you believe in?

(30:23):
What do you think would resonate with an audience? And so those are some of
the things that I would feel being a new artist. I obviously, what I know
now is different because I know these things but for people that are out there
like our audience that don't necessarily any direction to go would be the
first things that I would start off with. And having the songs
that incorporate those elements that you're speaking of into it. That's

(30:44):
so important today. Yeah. And I think that's one of the reasons why we started
MUBUTV and why we started this new consulting service that we're offering to all of
our insiders out there because that is another one of the big things. I mean,
that is the big thing is like having the great songs. That's what it really
starts off. Our friend, Don Grierson always said, it always starts with a great
song. So that's probably besides putting together what your audience

(31:05):
and what your target audience is is the single most important thing. Where are your
songs at currently today? Are you collaborating with people? Are
you trying to go out to networking events where you can connect with other songwriters
and stuff like that? So Yeah. And what are your strengths? Exactly. You
know, are are you a strong lyric writer? Are you a strong melody
writer? Are you a strong musician, a player? Right. You know, and it's

(31:27):
really important to get really strong clarity on those
issues before proceeding. I totally agree, Rich. And, you know, with our
consulting services, we offer a myriad of different packages that we've made
it super affordable for everybody. So, you know, if you guys are interested out
there in connecting with us on a coaching call, you can visit
book.mubutv.com and start off with a free

(31:49):
fifteen minute discovery call. Well, yeah. Absolutely. That we start with an
initial fifteen minute call where we can get a sense of who you are. What
are the issues that you specifically have and want to work
on? Exactly. And we can go from there. Absolutely. Yeah. And we tailor
everything to your needs. It's not like a cookie cutter thing. We kind of really
wanna get to know who you are as an artist, where you at today, what's

(32:10):
the snapshot of you as an artist today and then start trying to
craft something that's tailor made for you. So again, if you're interested, visit
us at book.mubutv.com for your fifteen minute
discovery call. Hi. This is Jessica Etner of Warner Chapel
Music. Are you an insider? I am. Subscribe now. It's
it's a great point. I I I wanna shift gears here and and go a

(32:32):
little deeper into something that that you you stimulated a thought when you were talking
about the various genres before, which is something that I think is is a not
so obvious factor maybe to our audience in your world, which is here's a
here's a scenario with the music business a lot of times. In your world, you
can have artists that do very, very well on Spotify.
Huge, enormous numbers, but have no traction in the

(32:54):
live circuit. And and then also, Ben, you know, you have vice versa.
You have acts that, you know, have very successful, you know, live
elements. People like Frank Ocean, you know, I remember Avicii had
that. You know, a lot of hard rock has that, you know, where they
have huge audiences, but they don't have any Spotify
numbers. They don't have any, you know, singles that are driving it. I would imagine

(33:16):
in in the electronic world, you deal with that kind of balance
where not everybody has hit records. I wanna get into what is your
sense of of what's gonna make a great live
act in terms of because it's not about hit singles. It's not about
drawing people because of the records that they've heard. I mean, I would
say in your world of electronic music, that's probably a very low percentage of

(33:39):
them, isn't it? You know, I would say it's it's
tough to kind of define it. I mean, it's very, very nonlinear.
Right? Like, there are definitely you know, there are there is a whole
built up, you know, post kind of David Guetta
doing his collaboration with Akon and, like, you know, the the
mid kind of 02/2005 to 02/2010, you saw so many records getting, like,

(34:01):
radio penetration Yes. Being like an a one record. So that side of
the business is well kind of established, fermented. It's always changing. You
know, there are dance radio elements. There are DSPs that
that, you know, dance artists can track extremely well, and there's big
EDM playlists that have mass followers. But your point is
extremely true when it comes to the wide field and array

(34:23):
of electronic music and the various subgenres. I mean, there are artists
right now who can sell out their own festival, forty, fifty
thousand people. But if you looked at their Spotify profile and just their Spotify
profile, you would never be able to ascertain that level of demand
exists. So, yes, as an agent, I mean, we have to
go against the grain and not simply look at numb like, numbers do

(34:46):
not dictate necessarily what's happening in the music industry or where
artists are being built. You know? I think,
especially in electronic music, what we're looking for is someone who can really
put on a show that is so extraordinary or a set that has so many
peaks and valleys and such a dynamic, unique nature that
the audience is built, you know, very

(35:08):
focused on the lot. Similar to, I would say, jam music, you know, if
you go and look at Yeah. You know, the disco biscuits or soundtrack spec,
somebody's bigger widespread panics. Those are not artists that are gonna have this
stunning display on their Spotify, and yet they've been touring
fifteen, twenty years and selling out the same rooms or bigger rooms in certain
markets forever. That's because people know the experience that they're gonna get,

(35:31):
and they've built up a trust level with their audience in that
the audience is not going to hear recorded
medium being performed live. Right. And I think when we're talking about
electronic music specifically, there's a reason for that. It's because, you know,
you can sit at home and listen to that record on a massive sound system,
and it will never sound better than in, like, a a clean

(35:52):
room without outside interference. Right? Right. Whereas if you ask, you
know, if you ask me, I could probably name 10 acts that I would prefer
to see live rather than, you know, listen to their to their music
at home off just just off immediately. Right? I'd
much rather go see The Who or Rolling Stones live than listen to their album
at home. You know, I think that's accentuated in electronic

(36:14):
music because you're ultimately, in most cases, going to see
a DJ play records. And so how they mash those
records together, how they perform, how they kind of structure a
set, the different elements of production that many kind
of notable artists are able to bring into that live
atmosphere. You know, some of the biggest DJs in our world, frankly, just

(36:36):
have the best show, and that's what they're known for. You know,
we represent an artist called Excision. He is, I would say, by and
far away, like, the biggest name in the genre of dubstep, and anyone
who's been to an Excision show is is going to remember it for the rest
of their life. It's extremely loud. The production is way over the top.
There's multiple elements of lasers and flames and pyro,

(36:58):
and and there's thematic elements that he's developed over the last
twelve to fifteen years that are, you know, wide reaching. There's a
story. You know? I represent an axe Black Tiger Sex Machine that just
completed an entire manga, and they're gonna go perform this. You
know? Essentially, it's like a movie experience for fans. Now, you know,
with those two artists, you're not gonna see them necessarily at the top of, like,

(37:19):
a DSP stream list, but they're blowing
out shows. Succession has been for a long time, selling out everything,
building their own festivals. You know, these artists are extremely
successful in building a live experience and
segmenting their audience to, you know, create a
demand for more of that. And that's really, you know,

(37:42):
become the most successful side of of the business, at least from
a touring artist perspective. You know? I think the goal is to build a
business like that rather than to rely on DSPs to
stream your music and to make your money that way. And that's why there's such
a, you know, such a growth vector when you look at electronic music. You know,
people want to see these events live. They want to go to EDC. They want

(38:03):
to go to, you know, go to the rave and experience that kind of
magical atmosphere. And that's really what's created, you
know, that surging demand rather than the the music medium
itself. Yeah. Very, very much so. And, you know, it's always been
said for for the live aspect of music, when you see an act live that
you fall in love with, you will bond to that act for the rest of

(38:25):
your life. You go see an act you know, if you fall in love with
the act on the record or you've never seen them before and you go see
them live and they're terrible, it's gonna take a miracle to win you
back, an an absolute miracle. So I think the points you're making are
absolutely essential. And, you know, we've talked about this extensively. I
mean, you look at the modern landscape musically from, you

(38:45):
know, people like Russ and and others who I mean, I learned of
Russ a couple years ago, and I mentioned him in my class that I teach
at the Musicians Institute. Only half the students had even heard of
him. And the the point I was making with them is that this was a
guy who two years ago, it literally, it was that week that I was teaching,
sold out the Hollywood Bowl. It's an 18,900 seat

(39:07):
venue here. I mean, you know, and so I think the point you're making is
And isn't that interesting? I mean, it's a fascinating Phenomenal. It's
almost a it's a phenomenal phenomenon. Yeah. Of these artists that
you've never seen in a world before. Yeah. Yep. I mean, you could walk
in through Times Square, and we actually use this saying a lot at UK. It's
like, if I walk through Times Square, how many people out of 10 or a

(39:28):
hundred are even gonna know this artist, and yet they might sell
15,000 tickets in New York. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Yes.
And it's kind of that that niche mentality of of just
building your audience for what you're doing. I mean, the happiest artists in the world
are creating the music that they want to exist in the world and bringing it
to fruition. And, you know, sure enough, there are

(39:50):
droves of human beings who will have the exact same desire. And
matching those people together and creating that live atmosphere, that's
that's the goal. That's the, you know, that's where we're all trying to
get. You know, Ben, I wanted to ask you, you know, obviously, one of our
mantras here, our main mantras here at MUBUTV is, you know, educating
artists and and educating, you know, business professionals of the future. And I wanted to

(40:12):
ask you from your perspective, can you speak to the importance of new artists
educating themselves about the business they're getting into? Yeah.
Absolutely. I mean, you know, it is if you were to I mean,
this is what I usually will say to artists. If you wanted to be any
other profession in the world, if you wanted to do anything else, there's a high
chance you might have to go to a college for four to eight

(40:35):
years to even get a degree to even be hired in that
field. Right? You would have to spend hundreds of
hours. You know, it doesn't matter if you wanna be a hairdresser or a nuclear
scientist. There are accolades you must reach in order to hold that
profession and be successful in it, and those accolades come from studying and
perfecting the craft. So how can you be the biggest artist

(40:57):
in the world if you haven't properly educated yourself on the different
facets and and verticals that exist within the business you're trying to conquer?
I mean, it's like going to war without having generals, without having
a plan. It's just you're you're throwing darts at a board. You know? If
you have not focused your business acumen and done
research that is very much publicly available, is very

(41:19):
much attainable and achievable, and, thankfully, there are, you
know, units such as yourselves, like, doing this, creating this wealth of
knowledge, creating this library. And if you're not studying, how are
you expecting to kind of ace the bar of the
music industry? You know, you it's it's wild to me,
frankly, how many great artists in the infancy of their career we

(41:42):
will speak to who, you know, for lack of a better term, we'd say the
term is probably green. Like, man, that guy is awesome. He is so talented,
but he's super green on, like, how everything works. You know? And,
ultimately, I think as an artist, you're doing yourself a disservice because
that will lead you to be taken advantage of. It can lead you to make
the wrong decisions. You know? Education is essential

(42:03):
to artistry. And that doesn't mean that you can't do things your own
way or go against the grain or stand out and do
things differently. I mean, certainly, innovation is a key component to
musical success, but it's tough to even be innovative, I think, if you
don't know the breadth and knowledge of what is.
Right? How do you how do you innovate or become iconoclastic

(42:25):
or deviate or or become a disruptor if you don't know what the
status quo is in a certain industry? So, you know, I would
say by and far away, probably our most successful
artists on the roster match up pretty equally
with our most intelligent or
educated artists in terms of how the industry

(42:47):
works. That's something that I I think you will see.
I hear that among certain distributors of of records. I hear that
among label executives. I hear that among attorneys. And it's kind of like the
the evolution, the artistic evolution, if you will, within the
culture. It's like when you were speaking before about, you know, the idea
of, you know, using the example that you spoke of of walking down in in

(43:09):
New York City with somebody, and yet they would have the ability to sell out
Madison Square Garden or, you know, 18,000 seat tickets. It's the
the bigger what what came to mind as you were speaking about that, Ben, was
the idea that in our business, culturally, in our business,
success has been completely redefined. I
mean, you know, when you got into this business or when you were starting out,

(43:30):
success was defined as big hit records, big album
sales, big ticket sales, and that was it. Like,
that was success. End of sentence. Now as you're pointing out, like,
success has a lot of different parameters in a lot of different ways.
People making viable, sometimes very viable, livings, and
they can walk down the street. People don't know who they are. It's not like,

(43:52):
you know, we used to think like Critical mass, hitting that critical mass. Right?
Exactly. And yet they're they're very successful financially. They're doing very
well. They have, you know, created their own cottage industries Exactly. As Ben is illustrated
with so much. And also with the idea of what you spoke
about, another aspect to this, which is proof of it, is what you talked about
when you said people who develop their own festivals Right. Furthering

(44:14):
the the the the penetration of the culture with what they're
doing and finding more people to to evolve into that and to
bring more people into it. So it's an it's it's an interesting conversation
because it goes to other aspects that are just, you know, beyond
artists. It's it's a bigger conversation when you talk about redefining what
success means in this industry. Absolutely. I mean, look. We are

(44:37):
universe building here, and your universe as an
artist can be almost exactly how you like with the right
tactical planning and the right team around you. And, ultimately, like, you're looking to bring
people like, the best artists, the most passionate artists are looking to
create that universe for themselves that they share with their
audience from a live perspective. And so, you know, you talked about ticket sales. I

(44:59):
mean, yeah, ticket sales still remain very important. I would say,
you know, when you're looking at when fans or young artists are looking at the
Lollapalooza or the Coachella or the Bonnaroo flyers, you know, these
monolithic massive festivals that are built from top to
bottom and the biggest artists at the top and, you know, theoretically, the smallest
artists are at the bottom. You know, what's interesting to me is is

(45:20):
an artist that has built their own festival, their own following, their own
core audience, and has the ticket sales to back that up will
probably be billed over the artist who has the
streams in in almost all situations. Right?
Even if one of those two names, more people who
see the flyer are going to recognize that one name, the

(45:42):
artist who has taken the time to actually build up the ticket sales and to
build up the actual audience and who then represents a better asset
to the festival because they're gonna sell festival tickets to their
fans who will then come to the festival, that artist is gonna be a
priority nine times out of 10. And I've been on both sides of that. I've
had the artist who has the streams getting billed behind, you know, the guy who

(46:03):
can sell 20,000 tickets in the region, and I've had the opposite. I've had
I've represented the artist who well, you know what? This other artist streams a lot,
but, guys, we just did 12,000 tickets, and the other artist did
6,000. So it's like, which one is bigger? Again, it's it's it's
a rat race of sorts. It's very tough. It's a big part of our job,
but that's how we start to kind of define how big

(46:26):
an artist is. And it is, again, very, very
nonlinear. And, ultimately, I would say the one true pattern is
that artists who have really established a dynamite,
identifiable, quantifiable audience surge to the
top of those lineups. They're desired by festivals because the
festivals want to sell tickets, and especially to new

(46:48):
folks. You know, if you have a festival that's been running for fifteen, twenty
years, how do you sell 4,000 more tickets
the next year? You gotta, you know, you gotta book the lineup right. You gotta
introduce new elements for growth. So it it is a very
kind of complicated process to define how big or small an
artist is, but, you know, ultimately, it's

(47:10):
hard to argue against a following, and it's
hard to argue against special moments for an
artist's audience that speak loudly, big moments. We're trying to create
those all the time as agents. Something we can talk about, something we
can sell to a festival, something that defines how big an
artist is. We're trying to create headlines. That's what kind of disrupts

(47:32):
the process of a festival just saying, well, you know, festivals could just bill based
on who has the most listeners. Right? That would be one way to do it,
but that is certainly not how you would see a lineup build
today in our music industry. Yeah. Most definitely. I
remember Arthur Fogel, who is a, you know, renowned agent in the
business, one time said at a panel that I was at, he said, if you

(47:54):
can build a career live, you know, getting
an audience live, you will always have a career. He said, I
I I can't say that for for people with recorded music success, and
I think, you know, you're you're making that exact point, and it's it's even more
personified in the world that we're in today based on the many
examples that that you're giving us. Ben, I I wanna sort of

(48:16):
switch gears here and and ask you a a personal
professional question. Throughout your life, have there been any books
or films that you have found to be particularly inspiring,
professionally speaking? Yes. So, I mean, look, I I you know, my new
assistant who I just recently hired would say, Ben Ben's gonna
nail this question because when he when he came on, I sent him ten, fifteen

(48:38):
books to read and 10 movies to watch. But the real answer I wanna give
is, like, for me, fiction has been the most effective
element, I think, in my life in terms of creating that drive and creating
that manifest destiny complex and starting to kind of
be formative in where you wanna go. I've found, you know, kind
of the the same, like, all time movie classics

(49:00):
in the music world, like an almost famous, like, a Blues Brothers.
Those were, like, extremely helpful to me because they kind of tapped into my
creativity, and they show this, like, kind of, you know, again,
somewhat fictional, somewhat real world of,
yeah, of music. And so I think, like, you know, for everyone,
it's gonna be different. I don't necessarily think that there's a bible

(49:23):
book wise to the live touring industry that I would personally
suggest. I think it's you know, I think there's
a myriad of different books on just general music
knowledge that can be helpful. But from a live standpoint, I mean,
for me, it's probably like talking heads stop making sense. Like, when I saw
that, I actually, like, wanted to be an agent more

(49:45):
than anything in the world to create concerts like that and experiences like that.
So I I know that may be a a bit of a weird answer, but
for me, like, you know, I I've always, as an agent,
imagined signing these massive artists and
standing on stage behind them as they play for 50,000
people. And then, ultimately, I was able to get there and see that

(50:06):
and do that. And I don't know if I would have gotten there without
the bridge gap of, like, seeing it personified and knowing
that it happened and knowing that someone booked it. You know? Like, when I saw
the talking heads kind of that that is just one of the craziest, most
imaginative, amazing concerts of all time for me. Right? And you
don't see the crowd until the very end. Really? At the very end, they were

(50:29):
going, and people are just going nuts. And, you know, you kind of the
entire documentary, I was wondering, like, what is going on in the crowd for this
show because this is the most wild thing I've ever seen? And yet there's no,
like, lasers in, like, major production in that documentary. It's very much
like a theatrical show that David Byrne was able to create that
just blew people's minds. So I think, you know,

(50:51):
to to really learn where you wanna be in music and to start to,
like, create that journey for yourself, it's
probably better to tap into, you know, that fictional
music, live music film universe. And then
even for me, it was watching watching concerts, watching concert
documentaries, and watching the Woodstock documentary, and, you know, digging into

(51:12):
what happened and creating kind of a road map for where you wanna take
it. Right? So I think it's it's a combination of fiction. And then, obviously, there
is a nonfiction element. It's like watching a concert that happened. It's it's very real
and in your face. But still, I think, like, the debt
agents and I've actually talked about this with agents. Like, what is the
book? Right? You know, what what's the book that you would give

(51:35):
your assistant or or somebody who's young who wants to be in music? And I
don't know that that necessarily is something I would put out there. I think
everybody is kind of walking their own path, and I think it's about
finding what has happened in the world of music and figuring out
how you wanna put your mark on it. Yeah. Very, very much so. Very much
so. It's because you're talking about the the sources of inspiration, you know,

(51:57):
whether it's Stop Making Sense or or any of these documentaries.
I mean, I'm I I watch every one of those documentaries and autobiographies
and, you know, things that that that that give the exact
sense of what you're talking about. It's it's the how how would I put it?
The the periphery and the the essence that's, like, behind
those things that give the the emotional heft

(52:18):
and elements that you're talking about that make those things, I think, so
strong. And, you know, of course, I I went and resaw Stop Making Sense. You
know, they put out a fortieth anniversary addition to it a couple months ago, and
it's it's still brilliant. I mean, I remember when it came out. I remember the
original show right here in Hollywood at the Pantages in in '84, I
think, he filmed it. It was, like, filmed over two or three nights. But,

(52:39):
you know, and to hear that that when they redid it in four k, I
mean, it's it's it was wonderful. Did you have a chance to resee it when
it came out just now? I haven't. I'm actually I I need to. I was
you just reminded me. I was, like, thinking about that. And, again, like, that's that's
the power of, like, you remembering just now, like, when it happened and and being
a part of that. It's like, you know, it can jar a massive mental

(53:00):
journey just to see or talk about a certain piece
of concert art. And that to me is like that that just says it. Right?
You know, I think the only other follow-up I wanna give is, like, there are
some documentaries now that are really effective on, like,
EDC Las Vegas, Coachella, Lollapalooza. I
love watching those. Like, I'll still watch the Coachella documentary every once in

(53:23):
a while or the EDC documentary just to, like, refresh my brain
on some of the folks who were involved or certain ways that they dealt with
issues. I mean, you know, if that is like those are fantastic stories
that kind of extend what someone might know about these iconic
festivals. I think those are great literature, and that was on kind of the list.
Somebody's coming to work for me. I want them to educate themselves as

(53:45):
much as possible in an industry that's very difficult to educate yourself
on in traditional methods. Like, I don't necessarily think that there's
a book out there that will tell you how to be an effective agent. And
if there is, then I'm mistaken. I mean, I'd I'd like to read it and
and see where it's correct from my standpoint. But I think,
really, it's about, you know, learning as much as you can

(54:07):
about the infrastructure. Right? And so I think
those documentaries, I think those behind the scenes pieces that talk to
artists, those are probably the most effective. You know, if you wanna be a
good agent, you're gonna need to know how an artist thinks, how they
operate, what adversity they've been through. And those that
type of literature has been particularly important for me.

(54:29):
Ben, maybe there's a book in your future. You never know. What advice
would you have for anyone in our audience who wants to pursue a
career as an agent? So I okay. I I think the the best
answer to this is probably to go back to kinda how I started and
how, actually, a lot of my colleagues and folks who I respect as
agents started. I think that the best

(54:51):
agents come from the promotion side, typically,
frankly. I I started as a, you know, a guy who was a
raver, and then I threw my own raids and took my own risk, and I
definitely have lost my ass on my event. Right? I
I walked out of a particular rave I threw when I was 18 where it
it thunderstormed all day, and our Facebook event got hacked, and everything

(55:13):
that could go wrong went wrong. We lost, like, $10. And at the time, as
an 18 year old, that was, like, all of our money that we had built
up by throwing events. Nothing will prepare you for the
roller coaster of emotions that is working in music like
getting your ass handed to you on your own event that you put all your
time and energy into. And then meshing that, by the way, with the successes that

(55:33):
you have. So I think what I typically tell people when they ask me, how
do I become an I wanna do what you do. How do I do that?
Part of it is, like, right place, right time. You know, you're gonna need to
to meet talent somehow or be put in a
position to meet talent. And if you're not gonna just go and
directly intern at an agency, which is certainly an option and I think a

(55:53):
fairly obvious one. I mean, you know, you wanna work at UTA, try to go
intern at UTA. You know, taking into account privilege and geographical
realities and stuff. I mean, not everybody can just go intern at an agency or
go show up in LA and knock on the door at WME and walk in
and get on a desk. You know? That's not a that's
not really a a story or a path for, I would think, most

(56:15):
Americans. And in the interest of, like, actual
inclusivity and, you know, kind of having a free empire of
music, what people should be doing is getting involved as quickly as
possible from the ground up and as young as possible from the
ground up. You know? By the time I was the age that I would
have graduated from college in a traditional four year program,

(56:37):
I was living in LA as a college dropout booking big
concerts. So, you know, I certainly would not tell someone that
the traditional route is to go four year, six year
university. Like, I I can't really say that I have too many colleagues who are
college dropouts. You know? But I can say that that my
involvement in the rave industry in an early

(56:59):
generally speaking, an early age and getting involved with promotion and I mean,
I I set speakers up. I tore them down. I took money at the
front door. I passed out flyers on the street to people who didn't wanna talk
to me. Like, that's the stuff that really I did that I think led
me to, you know, eventually being in the right place, right
time with Steve Gordon, you know, as he started his agent

(57:21):
career. You know, he wanted help. He He wanted to bring somebody along. He he
sat at lunch with me and said, I think you'd actually be a really good
agent, so why don't we do that? You know, had I not been
so involved in Steve's promo, his promotional company, had I not been
involved in Starscape, the festival he put together, had I not spent the
time as a promoter getting my ass kicked on my own events,

(57:42):
you know, that was ultimately what led me to Steve, who said I need to
to team up. The reality is there's this tight knit network, neural
network of human beings who are working in music. If you wanna be in
music, you wanna be an agent, get in there. You know? I my
first job in music, I made $7 an hour, and then I got
a raise to $10 an hour and started paying taxes out of it, and it

(58:03):
was, like, $7.50. You know? I I don't know that there's
an illustrious linear path to becoming an agent in today's empire.
The reality is, like, you're gonna have to represent talent
yourself. And, you know, I think we grow extremely
well from within the building at UTA, and I think there's a fantastic
agent training program there. I have personally seen people

(58:26):
come out of the mail room, work on my desk, who are still at UTA,
who are coordinators, who are agents, who are, like, well on their way to having
illustrious careers. So I do think there's a component of, you know,
great agencies build great agents from within the building. And
that's the other kind of half of the answer here. And I'm sorry it's so
long winded, but this is probably the meat and bones of what, you know,

(58:48):
an audience listening to a podcast might wanna know. Like, how do I go do
this? Right? So, you know, I think that that my way was
to simply go and get involved in any way possible and and
just drown myself in music industry. You know? I was doing as
much as I possibly could, and I was throwing as many events as I
could, and I was working as many events as I could. I mean, I think

(59:10):
anyone who wants to be successful in music is gonna have to work very, very
hard and be very, very dedicated. I think the other component to that
is there are well established agencies out there
who certainly, to a certain degree, are hiring or looking for interns
or looking for folks to come and interact with the building. So, you know, your
options are to go the traditional route and try to approach an agency to work

(59:30):
there from the ground up or to start in another
kind of facet of music with the ultimate
goal of transitioning to be an agent. What is the best way
for our audience to reach you? Is it through social media? Is it through
I always caution people to stay away from contacting music
industry executives on social media. I think that's probably the

(59:53):
the best advice I can give. I mean, there was a time when
people were hitting my mom on social media to try to try to send their
demo tapes and and unreleased music to her because she was
posting on my Facebook. Right? And it's like, that's where you kinda say, like, okay.
You're probably going about this the wrong way. I do field incoming
stuff on social media from time to time. I've had, like you know, there's a

(01:00:14):
lot of college students who reach out and wanna do a quick interview, or there's
a lot of young professionals who will ask the question you just asked, how do
I go and become an agent? I think the best way to do that is
probably to find the agent's email and to, again, start with the education
process. Right? I mean, it's not necessarily difficult to find my
email if you know who I am. Right? And and, in fact,

(01:00:35):
like, I posted on my artists all the time, and if you just go to
their profiles, typically, like, my email's right there. And then there's
also, like, you know, a great industry back end resources roster
where, you know, virtually every agent manager act is listed and their contact
information is listed, and you can, you know, go and pay for a
social, you know, subscription there. Or you can, you know, vest yourself in in,

(01:00:57):
like, a billboard subscription or something like that where you can kind of get
a landscape of, again, like, the built up infrastructure. So I try to stay away
from social media. I think I think finding an email and emailing an agent is
is totally fine and, again, trying to keep in mind, like, the
professionality of it all. Absolutely. Ben, we wanna thank you so
much for taking the time. We really, really appreciate it. This has been a

(01:01:19):
wonderful and very, very insightful and helpful conversation.
Absolutely. It was a pleasure and honor to be here. It was great talking to
you guys. I thought we got into some good stuff and, you know, happy to
be helpful however I can with your endeavors. I mean, the other overarching thing
I wanted to close with is that it is wonderful that resources like this
exist in the world of music. It's not something that I

(01:01:41):
was necessarily able to tap into in 02/2007, '2 thousand '8.
I don't necessarily know that stuff like this existed, so
it's wonderful that this is, you know, stuff that's being produced and
created and dispersed so that people can really start to unravel the
mysteries of what they want to do in music and how to accomplish it. So
I really appreciate you having me. Incredible.

(01:02:03):
Yeah. Man, I am so glad that we had been on the
show. Yeah. What an insightful conversation about such
an important element that we don't really talk about enough on this show.
Right. Yeah. Absolutely. One of the things that he said that I thought was
so important, and it ties into the whole philosophy that Eric and I have
on MUBUTV, which is, you know, the importance of immersing

(01:02:26):
oneself in the music industry. Not only working hard and being persistent,
but focusing on building connections and gaining, like, varied
industry experience, that has never been easier to do than today. You
know? Getting that, you know, internship, reading the materials,
becoming familiar. You don't have to leave your house to become educated. You know? I
mean, this isn't the era when if you didn't have $400 for a billboard subscription,

(01:02:48):
you were out of luck. Today, it will all come to you, but you have
to make that commitment. And I'm so glad that he spoke about that
because, again, we will say it again and again. Eric and I truly believe
in today's day and age, artists need to be educated
about their chosen career path. If this is to be your chosen path,
we're meaning, like, this is not a hobby. This is really where you wanna make

(01:03:09):
a living, then you've gotta become educated about the career path you're you're you're
choosing. It's absolutely crucial. And, you know, Rich, one of the other things
you talked about that you don't have to leave the house now, but what you
do have to leave the house for in this aspect of your career, which I
thought was great, was about reputation and personal relationships. You know, Ben
noted the the impact of personal relationships and the reputation in the

(01:03:29):
industry illustrating this with stories of professionals, you know, passing on
opportunities due to personal disagreements. Don is in relationships
and getting to know the people that you're dealing with. As he mentioned in his
interview is that the music business is such a small industry. Once you're into it,
you think it's so massive, but it turns out that it's comprised of the
same people pretty much as you start going about this business and learning who the

(01:03:51):
different people are. He illustrated it so beautifully in here, and I and I thought
that that was something worth sharing with the audience about how important it is to
build relationships. Relationships are everything in this
industry. I mean, I the older I get, the more I realize
how valuable that is because, you know, a lot of times even if you don't
have, you know, huge, you know, chart success or huge

(01:04:13):
financial success, you have reputation, you have those
relationships, and they are crucial. You know, I remember what Marcus
Spence, a a guest that we had on the show, you know, how he talked
about that and how the relationships, you know, whether it was with Timberland or what
he learned about the building of the relationships within the label. Right. You know,
when when Which was brilliant. I thought it was genius. Absolutely. It was obvious. It's

(01:04:34):
so obvious, but you don't see it until somebody says it. You're like, wow. That's
for somebody that didn't know was trying to learn the ropes as they went. Yes.
Was brilliant. Yes. But it goes to the heart of something a little deeper, which
is that you have to have that drive to build those
relationships. Yes. It's not all just email and Right. I can't talk and I'm
shy. Well, then maybe you should pick another profession Right. If that's because

(01:04:56):
what you're saying is so important and it is required today. And the other thing
that I thought was was absolutely crucial that a lot of
people don't get is how he spoke about the fact that agents and
managers do not create careers for artists from
scratch. They just don't. Artists need to be generating income independently
before seeking those kinds of partnerships, you know, addressing a a common

(01:05:18):
misperception that people have of, well, if I only had an agent, then I would,
you know Right. The thing is is that I I understand insiders. You know?
You gotta bring your if your career is from zero to a hundred, you gotta
bring it to 40. And I know that it didn't used to be like that.
It used to be where, you know, it was faith based. Faith based. Yeah. We
saw talent. We believed in it, and we made that happen. We don't live in

(01:05:38):
that world anymore. We don't live in the world of typewriters anymore or dial up
phones. We live in a different world today. So today, you have to be able
to build your career to a certain level. Managers and and artists don't create
careers for acts out of nothing, and I thought that's that was an important
point coming from someone at his level. Yeah. And another thing that I thought was,
Rich on this interview was the role beyond bookings. You know, he describes

(01:06:00):
his role as extending beyond just handling bookings, involving creative
strategies and initiatives to help artists reach the next level, and providing
examples like facilitating a virtual festival during COVID nineteen. And you can
imagine, everything came to a standstill. As we all know, in the touring market, the
music industry came to a crashing halt, and these guys had to
think outside of the box of how to generate something for their

(01:06:22):
artists while everything was in lockdown. And I thought this is a perfect example of
that. Yeah. Absolutely. And and and I remember that era very well when,
you know, you had people that were they were doing shows and drive
ins, if you if you remember. You know? I mean, talk about, like, trying to
get through that whole thing of shows where a band would perform up front. And
when people were sitting in their cars and Yeah. With a little speaker. Right. Yeah.

(01:06:43):
With a mask. But but they were at least trying to do
something in terms of the the the the live business. So, you
you know, insiders, this was a conversation that I felt was really
important for you guys to hear. We both feel very strongly that the live
aspect is a crucial element of any artist development career,
and we definitely are gonna have more people back in the

(01:07:05):
live space to talk more about that because it is such an important
realm in developing your career. Hey, Insiders. Thanks so
much for tuning into this episode. We really appreciate it. To get show
notes, links, and everything that was mentioned during this interview, head on over
to our official website at
mubutv.com/podcast/shownotes.

(01:07:26):
If you're enjoying the content and what we're doing here on the show, please subscribe
to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever
you listen to podcast from. And don't forget to rate and review our show at
iTunes. Five star reviews are always welcome and help to ensure
that our podcast stands out on the top rated and new and noteworthy
charts on iTunes and our space. You can also find us at social

(01:07:48):
media at Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and Twitter
x, all ending with the handle MUBUTV, which is spelled m u
b u TV. Don't forget to catch our flagship show, the
MUBUTV music business insider video series airing
every week on YouTube at
youtube.com/mubutv. This show
was produced and created by Ritch Esra and Eric Knight. Theme music

(01:08:11):
by Disciples of Babylon, and be sure to tune in next week for another
episode of the MUBUTV Music Business Insider
Podcast.

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How Top Booking Agents REALLY Spot Breakout Artists – Secrets from Ben Hogan - United Talent Agency

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}How Top Booking Agents REALLY Spot Breakout Artists – Secrets from Ben Hogan - United Talent Agency