The Art of Letting Go: Joe Zook’s GAME-CHANGING Advice for Musicians With Producer, Mixer Joe Zook [U2 & OneRepublic]

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
On today's podcast, we sit down with veteran music producer and mixing

(00:03):
engineer, Joe Zook. Joe, whose impressive background includes working with
Quincy Jones and developing his craft at Conway Studios, shares
his insightful journey from tribute bands to top notch music
production. We discuss his unique approach to mixing hit tracks like Counting
Stars and Fight Song, the impact of technology on music
production, and his advice for aspiring musicians. Plus, he opens

(00:26):
up about the creative process working behind such iconic bands
like U2. You can't afford to miss this inside look at the
music industry. Insiders, are you ready?
Welcome to MUBUTV's Music Business Insider Podcast, where
our mission is to educate, empower, and engage artists and
music business professionals who are dedicated to having a successful career in

(00:49):
the new music industry. Here are your hosts, Ritch Esra
and Eric Knight. Welcome back, insiders, to another episode of
the MUBUTV Music Business Insider Podcast, where
our mission is to educate, empower, and engage your music
career. On today's episode, we welcome the acclaimed record producer and
mixing engineer, Joe Zook. We dive deep into his fascinating

(01:11):
journey from playing in tribute bands for legends like James Brown and Stevie
Wonder to working with the iconic Quincy Jones. Joe shares
his insights on the impact of technology on music production, the
importance of musicians' personal investment, and his love for vintage
audio equipment. We also discuss his creative process behind hits
like Counting Stars and Fight Song, his experience mixing in

(01:34):
Dolby Atmos, and his advice to aspiring engineers and
producers. You don't wanna miss this inspiring and insightful
conversation. But first, a word from our sponsor. Hey, Insiders.
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(03:24):
Hi. This is Ben Hogan from UTA, and you're listening to the
MUBUTV Music Business Insider Podcast. Welcome back,
Insiders. On today's episode, we sit down and welcome
recording engineer and mixing engineer, Joe Zook. This was a
fantastic conversation, Eric, because number one, Joe is a
master at what he does. And number two, what I thought was so fascinating about

(03:46):
this is that we got to really look at the whole arc of his career,
you know, looking at it from the point of view of somebody who, you know,
starting off in Colorado as a musician. And he talked about that transition
from that into recording, you know, to becoming more interested in the
recording side than continuing on the musician side. Right. And that was one of the
points that I was gonna bring up that, you know, that whole idea of, like,

(04:06):
that he transitioned from being a musician to focusing on engineering and mixing because
of the diverse styles of music and different instrumental sounds so intriguing that he,
you know, thought. So I thought that was a really interesting point. It
was. You know, I was I was struck by the fact that when he said,
you know, initially I remember in the interview when he said, initially, I struggled
with guitar playing because I was around highly talented musicians.

(04:29):
And over time, I found my place and peers in the industry. And and
it was interesting because he acknowledged that it takes, you know, heartbreak,
it takes time, and it involves rejection, and that's just that's part
of that whole growth process. And I thought that was a really fascinating
insight from someone who was on the front lines doing it and
realized, you know, that that aspect was something that he

(04:52):
didn't necessarily wanna do with his life, but that he found what his place
was. Yeah. I I agree. And one of the other things that really spoke to
me just as an artist and as a musician was, you know,
I, you know, about his idea of learning the art of letting
go. And, you know, and I think he said, you know, I've learned that art
of letting go after completing work and embracing the transient nature

(05:13):
of artistic endeavors, which is essential to moving forward
and creating, you know, new projects. And I and I agree, you know, just from
a standpoint of a musician, you know, you get so close to the work that
you're doing from a music standpoint and as a songwriter that, you know, kind of
once it's done, it's done, and you just let it go. And I thought that
that really spoke to me in that aspect. Yeah. You know, that that that's that's

(05:34):
actually it's it's it's a concept that has been around
for for, I guess, generations. You know, Francois
Truffaut, the the the legendary, French
filmmaker was famous for saying art is never complete.
It's merely abandoned. Yes. You know, which goes right to the heart of what you're
saying, and it's about accepting that, you know, letting go of something, you know,

(05:56):
rather than Gauci, that famous, you know, the, famous,
building in Spain, La Sagrada Familia, that's just it's been
being built for a hundred years, and it hasn't been stopped being built. Yeah. It's
kind of like that same thing. Kind of like an evolution. Right. And the other
thing that I thought was was really insightful on Joe's part is
when he talked about, you know, confidence and authenticity being

(06:18):
absolutely, you know, essential keys to creating successful
records. You know, true originality and self expression, you know, connect better
with audiences. I remember when he said that, and that is something that I think
is so important because I think often we get so much of that is lost
today. It's lost in the volume of information, in the amount of
records, in the amount of shows, you know, and it's it's like we've had with

(06:38):
many people in our show, you know, that that particular aspect of not
losing sight of, you know, what your vision is, what your you know, and to
be able to fight for that vision and to see it through. And with that,
insiders, sit back, relax, and enjoy our featured conversation
with Joe Zook. Joe, welcome. How are you
doing? I'm doing good. How are you today? Doing great. Thanks for having me

(07:00):
on. Absolutely. We're really looking forward to this conversation. Thank you so
much for joining us. You know, we always like to begin these conversations with the
question, when in your life did you know that music
was gonna be your professional career path? Well, there's
that I wanted it to be or that it was actually going to happen. Those
are probably about fifteen years apart. But pretty early

(07:23):
on. I don't know. As far as a professional career, probably
in my early twenties, I would think. I mean, I I became interested in it
and was setting my sights on it around 17. I think I I read an
article. I started reading, you know, the backs of records and whatnot
and wondering what these jobs were or these these credits
were and discovered Mix Magazine when I was recording a demo

(07:45):
with my band. I was in a studio and there was this magazine in there,
And that kinda got me started on the whole world of
audio production and what was happening. And shortly after that,
I was I kinda had my sights set. So yeah. Pretty early on.
Joe, this is Eric. Such an honor to have you on the show. I I
wanted to ask you, can you share some of your memorable experiences from your

(08:07):
early days as a musician in Boulder? Memorable experience as
well. I mean, there weren't a lot of places to play, and we were quite
young. 14, 15, 16, really started going around
16, 17, and I was playing with some people who were older than me. So
we would basically just throw our own party. Sometimes they were
broken up within thirty minutes because there wasn't a lot to do

(08:29):
and word got around and there'd be, you know, a hundred people
inside, 400 people outside. But it was yeah.
There were some, you know, various violations and,
you know, various, you know, things that the the local board Boulder
Police Department frowned upon, and it was a lot of fun. Yeah.
It's a lot of fun. We played just we played college parties and high

(08:51):
school parties and and things like that. From that point, what
was it that inspired you to transition from playing guitar in
bands to focusing on engineering and mixing? Well, mostly,
it was it was just very, very wide paced.
I couldn't really pick a lane. You know, I like so many
different styles of music, and I was interested in playing different styles of music, and

(09:13):
I didn't love just guitar. I grabbed my ears sort of
gravitated toward all kinds of instruments. And I started
recording and studying the instrument, and I had a I had a great teacher that
taught me really how to listen closely to to tone and started
matching guitar tone. And when I started doing that, it
kinda opened up a whole other world where I really started to hear details and

(09:35):
records and started to wonder how to get certain sounds, and then I would
get into the studio and and get introduced to things
like compression or gating or EQ, very
you know, high end EQ or or more advanced EQ than just what
you had on your stereo, multiband parametrics and whatnot, and,
and just kind of got into that whole world and then really started listening

(09:58):
to the differences in in records and figuring out what made those
tick. And I don't know. It just kinda took me over, I guess. Just
became obsessed. So was this something that you were doing while you were
recording your own music, or was it being done independent
of you as a musician? Or or how was that process
taking place? Yep. Recording my own. I mean, literally just starting

(10:20):
from nothing with just two microphones in a basement and
and then going into a studio to cut a demo, and then it
just one thing led to another and and more more experiences and
then get my own four track machine. And it just, you know, it just
kept going through college and then so finding landing
job in in Hollywood. So you you started at that studio.

(10:43):
That's where you first got the the inclination was was
porting your own music. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.
Joe, how how did your internship in Austin shape your
understanding of the recording process? Well, that was really eye
opening because I didn't know anything at all. I just would
I I mean, because I had been on the other side of the glass as

(11:04):
a musician before and would ask, you know, a few questions here and
there. The internship in Austin was, you know, where I was
strictly an engineer, and and it was on a large format
console. It was modern with flying fader automation and,
you know, which I had never seen before and kinda blew my mind. So that
was sort of the ground level introduction of, you know, recording

(11:26):
techniques, different microphones, and a lot of
client interactions and
getting ready, being prepared, having to work with
lots of noise and distractions in the studio, things like that.
Yeah. That must have been an interesting experience. Was that the first
professional situation that you were employed in as an

(11:48):
engineer at a studio, or or had there been previous ones? That was
it. Yeah. Okay. That was the first one. Employed?
That was a year long internship. Okay. I don't know if I actually ever
made a single dollar. May maybe. I mean, I
was paid in food and, you know,
other things, but, no, that was, that was a very long

(12:11):
internship, and it was great. I learned a lot. No. I I I
imagine you did. I I I remember once there there was this interview
in the Defiant Ones, which is all about Jimmy Iovine and
doctor Dre, and he talks about his early career that he knew nothing
about recording or or, you know, anything like that until his,
his aunt was Ellie Greenwich, the songwriter, got him a

(12:34):
job with Roy Sacala. I forget the name of the
studio in in New York. And he learned, just like what you were saying,
he learned how to listen. He learned what, you know, EQ did.
He learned, like, you know, through and he said Roy was a wonderful teacher, like,
you know, in in terms of, like, what it did and what turning the
knob to, you know, two, four, you know, gave on a record

(12:56):
and on a sound. So he learned it all by doing. You know? And and
you said something about, you know, right now when you were in Austin about
I imagine which being that that was your first time in
that kind of a situation for that long must have
established some really good ground rules for you that you
took into your career. Can you talk about what some of those things were that

(13:18):
you learned, whether they were creative or even the noncreative ones especially?
I mean, yes. But the I I sorta had two starts, and
Austin was sort of the first, and then I went back to school
and finished a four year degree and then moved to LA and
became a runner at that point. And that is mostly what I draw
because that was even a bigger sort of reset and eye opening first time

(13:41):
experience. But I think some of the some of the things from
Austin was just I remember practicing having to
practice a lot with noise in the room and trying to
get the job done with a lot of things going on. So I would put
on the TV and a boombox really loud and and even
another source and maybe even play some music and try and patch things in and

(14:02):
set up for an entire session with all of that madness going on.
Because I remember thinking that it was really difficult to get
everything together, whether it's 10 people running around, people having conversations,
talking loudly, maybe someone's playing acoustic guitar in the back, all this going
on. So I remember practicing doing that a
lot, like, almost almost a weekly thing, and I

(14:25):
think that helped a lot. Yeah. I don't think I've ever heard an engineer say
that where they've tried to simulate a noisy situation, which makes sense.
You're in a session with a bunch of musicians making noise. They're making noises
on their instruments. People are talking. It's very interesting take on
that. Yeah. And even, you know, trying to listen for buzzing
microphones and things like that. Right. I practiced all that stuff. Wow.

(14:46):
Yeah. Because I was failing at it. I was like, I don't know what to
do. This is I can't turn around and tell everyone to shut up. It's
like you, you know so I just decided to practice and it worked. So that
was a problem that you were actually having that you were going through through Yeah.
During your sessions. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Mhmm. So, Joe, what were
some of the key lessons that you learned while studying at the University of

(15:07):
Miami? Well, there was a lot of I mean, it was it was a
music degree. I was music industry. I
went there with the intention of being engineering and I switched, and
which is kind of a long story, but there was You and I have a
have a weird connection to that that I that we'll discuss after you say your
answer to this question. Well, the guy there was

(15:29):
I was attracted to University of Miami because of what the studios in New York
and and Los Angeles were telling me were, you know, great
choices to go. And when I looked up University of Miami, I realized that the
guy, Ken Pullman, was writing a a monthly article in Mix
Magazine, and I liked his articles. So I was familiar with him,
and that's why I went there. And when I after the first, I

(15:52):
don't remember, semester or maybe a year, I started talking to him about it
and just thought that maybe I should drop out and go just go straight to
a studio and work. And he suggested he said that there was
somebody putting together a record label at the university, and
I could switch to music industry and get involved in the label and
make records. And so I thought I'd give that a try for a semester, and

(16:13):
I did, and it just worked out. And ended up being in the studio a
lot and learning a lot of other things, but Miami was a very
musical experience. So I was get I was getting a a major in music,
so I was learning a lot of theory and studying other things,
ear training, history, and various other things along with playing in you know,
we did a tribute band for James Brown, which was in a 14

(16:35):
piece James Brown tribute band, basically. And then
after that, I did a Stevie Wonder one, and so we dove into
those two artists heavily with the two bands of
just stunning musicians, like, really, really good. One thing
about that school is that the musicianship was very intimidating, and I
was like, oh my god. I thought I was kinda decent. These guys are amazing

(16:59):
at very young ages, like Savant, some of them. So
I spent a lot of time with those guys and a lot of time,
you know, rehearsing and and playing with them as well. So
it's and then, you know, outside of the of music was
just the business classes, finance, copyright law,
things like that. Just gave me a clue to what

(17:22):
I don't know and and learned a few things along the way, and it was
a great introduction to, you know, what's going on in the world of business and
music business. Yeah. The and the unique connection that we have, you and I in
a random weird way, I I believe it was Kane Records that you were
involved with, if I'm not mistaken. And I and I'm originally from Miami. I was
born and raised in Miami. Okay. And I actually worked for Specs

(17:44):
Music, which is one of the big retailers, you know, probably one of the greatest.
Yeah. And you Mhmm. There was a big launch of Kane Records, and I believe
that we were distributing. And I I was directly involved with
that. And I and somehow, some way, your name sounds
I mean, obviously, I know your name now because of you're established as a mixing
one of the top mixing engineers. But even prior to that, when I started to

(18:05):
do the research, I realized I go, man, I've I've heard of your name prior
to me knowing you as who you are today. And it was through that
connection because I used to do all of the consignment stuff for all the
independent bands and I worked directly. And so it was just
and I think your name may have come up throughout that time period. And
because, you know, it's a very unique name, Joe Zook. I don't know too many

(18:27):
people with that name. So it was just a unique tie in to this.
And I was like, when I started reading the research and I I just go,
oh my god. We have this weird connection with this whole thing with Kane records.
So I just thought I'd bring that up to you. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Because, I
mean, there were only about eight of us at the very beginning. Right. We were
probably dealing directly with either Susie, I wanna say Yeah.

(18:48):
Or or Sirona. Sirona. Sirona Elton, which we've actually
had on the show. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Really fun. Yeah. So it
was I mean, it was me and Alon and Sirona and Matthew Schwartz and
someone else, and then it started to grow a lot quicker. But, yeah, that first
launch was just a few of us. Right. Right. So, anyway, I just thought I'd
bring that up because there was a unique tie into that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

(19:09):
Oh, you you know, you had the opportunity to work with Quincy
Jones, and I was wondering what was that experience like, and how did
it influence your career? Man, that was a big one. He
made such an impression. Yeah. There's a lot to say.
I'll keep it short, but, basically, he's he's a master at
getting great performances out of everyone, and he considers it

(19:32):
seems anyone and everyone that he comes in contact
with. He wants to remember everyone's name, treat
everyone with respect and kindness, and be inspiring.
Let people do what they do best, stay out of people's way.
I mean, I'm sure he could have suggested so many different types of
musical parts and ideas to the musicians that were it was a tracking session of,

(19:54):
like, eight people. And he could've he could've gotten in and
gotten in everyone's up in everyone's business about
everything, and just the way he inspired everybody to to be
great and to really be invested
personally. And you can you can really see how
that makes a session roll and how it gets people to be a fan of

(20:16):
yours, to wanna follow you, to be you know, have their own
ideas and feel ownership of the project and of and of everything and
feel needed and wanna come back and do whatever they can. And then,
musically, he just had a gut reaction. He had a gut reaction
feel to performances, and he would be reading the newspaper
on the console as a as a take would go by, and he could just

(20:39):
he would just feel it. And these guys were amazing. There were no mistakes. He
just would say, no. Let's do it again. Let's try this. Maybe maybe
nothing even specific. Try it again, and then jump up out of his chair
when he felt it. And it was just he could just
he kinda let go of the cerebral at some point. You know, obviously,
he spent a lot of time very knowledgeable and

(21:01):
educated about everything. So at some point, he just knows how to let that
go and just feel whatever's right. Yeah. And it's also interesting, you know, because
he unlike other producers, Quincy started
in music. He is a musician. He was a writer and an arranger.
So he came to that particular gig from that experience
working with all those people. So as opposed to coming from it from a

(21:23):
from a different perspective. So and and I've heard that I've heard that before from
other people. Steve Lukather, I had on a panel once, and he he
talked about the the the working with Quincy, which he did for many, many, many
years in the seventies and eighties, made lots of records with him. And he spoke
about him the same way that he was he always loved working because he always
felt very inspired, and he felt that Quincy inspired everybody. And he said, and as

(21:45):
a result, everybody in those sessions always wanted to do their best work for
him. Yep. Always wanted to do the the good stuff.
Exactly. You wanna do your best. Yeah. Exactly. Let me
ask you. When you came out to LA, what did your experience as a
runner at Conway Studios teach you? Well, they were they were very
strict, and they had a lot of fun at the same time. Yeah. So it

(22:07):
was like, okay. We're gonna have a ton of fun as long as you're at
the a plus level of everything. And if not, you're gone.
That's kind of that's just kinda how they the the whole
atmosphere was. And it was very detailed. And as long as you were
into paying a lot of attention to all the details and doing things at
this, you know, sort of five star type place,

(22:31):
have fun, enjoy it, let the clients have a good time. So I
and I love that. And I I love the the grounds of the studio
have the same sort of atmosphere Yeah. As that philosophy. You know, they
have windows everywhere, excellent, you know, like,
exotic gardening, and they really take attention to detail to the
whole environment and the whole experience that everyone has.

(22:53):
And I just always thought that was the best. It was, like,
the the the highest bar that I've ever seen at any studio. And there's, you
know, there's obviously tons of great ones, but that one kinda stuck with me.
It's like, wow. That's High level of vaccine. Great feeling to it. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. They and they have a great it's a great compound, I mean, with,
like, the the the garden. And, yeah, it's it's quite quite beautiful.

(23:15):
And they want everybody to to be themselves. They don't
they don't wanna conform everyone to conform and do things a certain way. It's
it's sort of there for them to make it what they wanna make it,
and we're just there. The the staff and all the engineers there are there to
kinda make that dream a reality. Exactly. Joe, how did
your collaboration with, Jack Joseph Puig impact

(23:38):
your skills as an engineer? He it was a huge impact. He has a
tremendous amount of knowledge, both technically and a lot of
ideas creatively and just mountains of experience. Also his
pedigree. I mean, he studied under Glenn Johns who did Eagles, Led
Zeppelin, Rolling Stones, Hoo, Eagles. And
so that has been passed down and a reef Martin as

(24:00):
well, like, a lot of people that he learned from and then sort of adopted
his own take on everything that he learned and passed that
down. There was so much time spent with him as well that,
you know, it's just kind of an upper how do I say it? Just like
a an advanced degree in gear gear noodling,
first of all, because his gear collection is crazy. And so

(24:22):
fine tuning your ear to what things sound like, but according to him,
is more more important to how it makes music feel, where, you
know, something will make a song feel slightly faster or rushed or
laid back or exciting or mellow or, you know, all these different
emotions. So it it, you know, really kind of tune
my ear finally to some of those some of those details of engineering.

(24:45):
Joe, you have worked with such a wide range of
of artists and and various musical projects.
What projects or collaborations throughout your career
really stand out for you, either personally or or
creatively, that that you can talk about? I knew you're gonna ask that. I'm
dreading the question. Oh, okay.

(25:07):
All of it is all great. No. I'm not saying I'm not
asking you to say, like, which ones were were just the ones that really
stand out for for any number of reasons. I mean, was it, you know,
the people? Was it the experience? Was it, you know, sometimes we
we've asked that question to people and and it have been the, you know, the
ones that were kind of difficult, but the project came out so good that they've

(25:28):
talked about. So Yeah. I just, you know, I I I asked that from from
that perspective. I mean, off the bat, one of the big
surprises I've had in in having this career is where
you might think, and you've already kinda mentioned it, you might think that, you know,
you envision a certain type of music that you wanna
do and that that would be sort of the ultimate. But then when you get

(25:49):
in it, you realize that's a part of it, but it's it's really how the
people are behaving and what they're like during the session that
makes the experience, you know, has more of an impact on your
experience. So I've done some sessions exactly.
Yeah. I've done some sessions where I just I was kinda dreading
music, and and the people came in and were unbelievably

(26:11):
hilarious and had a the best time. And other
other experiences where I absolutely love the music, and
they were just miserable. And they hated their own music. Oh,
wow. I'm like, god. I I love it. Like, can't you enjoy any of
this? And they were just miserable. It's like, oh my god. You know? And you
just kinda I don't know. And it takes a minute to listen to those albums

(26:33):
after they're done, you know, sometimes a year or something before I even wanna put
something on. And then when I do, I think, oh, that's great, and I love
it. So I I would say it's worth it for stretches of
time. You know? I I like knowing in a situation like that that there's
an end at some point. Even if I don't know when it is, it's easier
to, you know, kinda kinda kinda go through that. I mean, god, there's

(26:54):
so many that are flashing through my memory right now. But Well,
what's interesting is how you said that certain projects you
you said something very interesting, which is that certain projects you want
to you have to get away from for about a year. Do you do you
not listen to anything that you've done recently, and you come back
to it, And and does it give you a different perspective when you go back

(27:16):
to some of those records a year later, and and you perhaps maybe feel
differently about them? Yeah. Yeah. It's all over the place. Sometimes
I'm horrified, and sometimes I'm surprised how good it is, and other
times, it's exactly as I remember it and, you know, whatnot.
But, I mean, generally speaking, I I listen to a lot of things that are
very recent because I'm just I'm usually just trying

(27:37):
to to move forward with things, and everything's changing all the
time. So I'm really I really don't listen to much that so over, like,
a year or two old that I've done. And and unless somebody brings it
up and or hires me because of something that happened, whatever, and they
say, I really love the way this and I go back and listen to it
then or, I don't know, for whatever reason or maybe it comes on the radio

(27:58):
or something. But, no, I mean I mean, the art of letting go
is is big. There's, you know, these these are just moments in
time and, you know, there's always another another,
you know, another chance at it at another another record,
and so I don't know. It's a it's a tough one. Yeah. It's you know,
I I will often go back and sometimes because of the work that

(28:20):
we're doing here, me and Eric will I'll go back and I'll listen to an
interview that we did, you know, a year or two years ago,
and and my memory of it will be that it was terrible. And then I
go back and listen to it, you know, with with the distance that you're talking
about, and I'm realizing, wow. This this wasn't bad at all. This this
really had a lot of great information. So my memory and

(28:42):
and my experience of it now, they're they're totally different totally
different. Yeah. And, yeah, I just wondered if you experienced that with records
that you thought didn't go so well, and now you listen back and
you're like, wow. That that wasn't as bad as I thought. Or the opposite, ones
that you thought were just magnificent at the time, and you're like,
oh. Yeah. Well, I I

(29:04):
will say, you know, since styles change and you EQ
curves change and taste change, sometimes it's a lot easier to
forgive myself because at the time, I was fighting it going, okay. This is
what they want. I wish it wouldn't go this far. I wish it would pull
back a little bit. And then I listen to it now and I go, yeah.
But I I know that that was that was the style at the time,

(29:25):
or that's how people wanted their low end on that kind of a record at
the time. And so it's like, well, that's I remember that at
the time, and I and I still feel the same way. And that's just that's
just what the what everyone wanted at the time. So And do you find yourself
sometimes when you're mixing stuff? I mean, obviously, you're serving the
client ultimately and the artist, which is always the way it should be.

(29:47):
But do you ever feel that there's times where you feel like you
need to speak up and really kind of, I guess, pick your battles and and
say, this is why I feel this should be here. I mean, have you ever
run into those situations? Yeah. And I I get a feel for how
they how strongly they feel about it. And, you know, if I if I could
tell that they're really they're really loving what they're doing, that's

(30:08):
really the number one thing that I want. Right. I that's a that's a
whole other philosophy, but, you know, they're they're gonna have to have the confidence
going out and, you know, telling everybody that this is a great record and they
should listen to it. And so that's generally number one. And if but if
I sent any sort of, you know, agreement where where
they're agreeing with me, like, maybe something isn't right, then I'll try and jump

(30:30):
in. Or just something that's bothering me. Yeah. I'll look for I'll look for the
right time in the right place to say something if it's welcome. Let me
ask you, Joe. What do you believe is the secret to creating a
successful pop radio hit? Well, that's
a that's a good question. I I mean, authenticity, I think, is
great. I think it goes a lot further and lasts a lot longer

(30:53):
when people are really trying to make something original and they
they believe that it's all their own and it's exactly what
they wanted to say. And even if they're a little bit scared that it's not
that it's too weird or it's too different. But, yeah, I I just
at the end of the day, it's art, and if they're actually doing that in
a pop pop way, I think it has more of an impact. I think it's

(31:14):
gonna connect with more people. The more true to themselves they are the artists
are and the more authentic they are. Joe, let let me ask you
something regarding sort of an overarching question regarding what you
do. How has the evolution of technology
impacted the way you mix and produce music? Massive.
It's it's night and day. You know, everything's changed. The

(31:37):
barrier to entry is absolute minimum. So
the way the way competition aside, just the way I do things,
number one is I can travel. I have a mobile rig, and, I
mean, that's it's not even gonna be a mobile rig anymore. It's gonna be a
laptop soon, which most people are have been doing for some time,
but some of the equipment that I I still like to use is almost

(31:58):
there. It's almost ready to go full laptop. But, yeah,
the the modeling of different equipment and the advancements
of brand new ideas and entirely new ways
of treating sound are coming out all the time, and they
bring new feelings and new emotions to everything, and they're they're really fun to
explore. There's a lot of freedom involved. Everything is

(32:20):
so instantaneous and so accessible. I can access files
from my phone and make changes from my phone, literally
pull over on the street and send somebody a file. And that's you know, whether
it's something in the cloud or whether I'm logging into my system, my
studio. So and being able to make changes, pitch and
time and recalls, and there's automated stem bouncing,

(32:42):
and there's, you know, a lot of help and a lot of time
saving, you know, elements and and new technologies
that really help kind of help me to sort of maintain a creative
atmosphere and still be doing the creative work and then making
all the things that aren't quite so much fun that might be time consuming
way faster. Hey, Insiders. We hope that you've been enjoying our

(33:04):
featured conversation. Stay tuned because we've got so much value
coming your way. But before we dive back in, a word from our sponsor.
Hey, Eric. As an artist, what do you find are the most challenging aspects
to a music career especially when you're starting out? Well, I think one of the
first things is just trying to get the direction of who you are as an
artist, where you wanna go, where you wanna be and, you know, we've talked about

(33:26):
it on the show a lot. Who is your target audience? Who you are? Who
what do you stand for? What do you believe in? What do you think would
resonate with an audience and so those are some of the things that I would
feel being a new artist. I obviously, what I know now is different because I
know these things but for people that are out there like our audience that don't
necessarily any direction to go would be the first things that I would start off

(33:47):
with. And having the songs that incorporate those
elements that you're speaking of into it. That's so important today.
Yeah. And I think that's one of the reasons why we started MUBUTV and why
we started this new consulting service that we're offering to all of our insiders
out there because that is another one of the big things. I mean that is
the big thing is like having the great songs. That's what it really starts off.

(34:07):
Our friend, Don Grierson always said, it always starts with a great song. So
that's probably besides putting together what your audience and what your
target audience is is the single most important thing. Where are your songs at
currently today? Are you collaborating with people? Are you trying to go
out to networking events where you can connect with other songwriters and stuff like that?
So. Yeah. And what are your strengths? Exactly. You know, are are you

(34:30):
a strong lyric writer? Are you a strong melody writer? Are you a
strong musician, a player? Right. You know, and it's really important to
get really strong clarity on those issues before
proceeding. I totally agree, Rich. And, you know, with our consulting
services, we offer a myriad of different packages that we've made it super
affordable for everybody. So, you know, if you guys are interested out there in

(34:52):
connecting with us on a coaching call, you can visit
book.mubutv.com and start off with a free
fifteen minute discovery call. Well, yeah. Absolutely. That we start with
an initial fifteen minute call where we can get a sense of who you are,
what are the issues that you specifically have and want to work
on. Exactly. And we can go from there. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And we

(35:13):
tailor everything to your needs. It's not like a cookie cutter thing. We kind of
really want to get to know who you are as an artist, where you at
today, what's the snapshot of you as an artist today and then
start trying to craft something that's tailor made for you. So again, if you're
interested, visit us at book.mubutv.com for your
fifteen minute discovery call. Hi. This is Lionel Lodge,

(35:34):
CEO and cofounder of Sync Lodge. Are you an insider?
I am. Subscribe now. Yeah. It's, you
know, it's interesting because one of the things too, and I and I'm sure this
was true when you began your career, is the idea that, you know, back in
those days, and many many producers and engineers have told us this,
and you sort of mentioned it now in in your comments is that you

(35:56):
had to go to a place to make music. And, you know,
many people have talked about how now files can be
sent to them from around the world, and they can do a mix
for somebody, a top of the line, first class mix, and get
it done from South Africa, from Australia. Mhmm. You know, send it back to them
and, you know, and then, you know, get the notes and, you know, fix the

(36:17):
vocal, send it back, you know, maybe another pass and
get and that just wasn't possible, you know, years ago. You used to have
to go to the studio to actually work on those machines
there. Yeah. You kinda stole my thunder, Rich. Not with that. Not
no. No. It's it's it's beautiful because I was just having the similar thought. I
was just gonna, you know, chime in when you were talking, Joe, and just saying,

(36:39):
I'm sure you came from a time because I've been in studios. I'm a musician.
I've been, you know, in the top studios too. Understanding the time
that you started where people were still cutting tape on two inch tutors
to to now, like what you said, that you can pull over to the side
of the road and send somebody a remix, do a pitch shift, do anything, and
send it back to them. I mean, that's that's just astonishing if you think about

(37:00):
it. And I'm just wondering what your thought is from coming from that era
to where we are today where you said it's almost ready to go where I
can have everything on my laptop. I mean, it's insane. Yep. It's insane.
And I've always been at the of the mindset, like,
just use the new tools for what they're good at and just be
I you know, because there's so much negativity about there's you know, it just

(37:22):
invites all this competition, invites all things. Well, yeah, but nothing you can
do about that. What you can do is use it to your advantage and use
it in ways that inspire you and still get you excited
about doing your job and and making these these records.
And so exploring the new technologies and
and and getting into it is what, you know, inspires me every day to just

(37:44):
keep enjoying some of these things, honestly, because it makes it so
much easier. Nobody likes cutting tape. Well, there's maybe one in a
million. Right. Do you No. Thanks. Do you have
the experience in your work, because I know you have a studio in your
home, that clients some clients, maybe not all,
but some clients like being with you when you're

(38:06):
working. And number one, is that a reality for you? And number
two, do you prefer that, or do you prefer working
totally alone and sending them the the work? Well, I don't have a studio in
my home, but it's very close to my home, walking distance. But, yeah,
people I mean, I have had it both ways, and when the one thing
about today is everyone has their own studio. So some people

(38:28):
just feel more comfortable listening in there, and they're very familiar with how things
sound, how things feel. So sometimes if they show up
here, we make a book bunch of changes, they might take it back to their
place and realize that they had gone in a different direction or something needs
to be changed a little bit more. So and it's never been drastic,
but that's definitely an element, and I can understand why people would just

(38:49):
feel more comfortable listening in their environment. Now I can
stream live. So, you know, we can get on FaceTime, and I
can literally be playing the mix live to them while they're in their environment,
time and mine. So people tend to prefer that. And I
always invite people over, but, you know, a lot of times, they're in
another state, they're in another part of the world, or they're just busy. They have

(39:11):
a session in an hour or for for whatever reason. Yeah.
It's interesting because I think, Rich has got Jedi mind tricks. He's playing Jedi
mind tricks on me because everything that he's thinking is what I'm what what
I'm thinking in my head. And I and it's funny that he mentioned that because
that was one of the things that I wanted to ask you. And the only
reason why is because of recently I had a conversation with, Chris Lord Alge

(39:32):
about this very subject, and he strictly doesn't want anybody in the room
with him. I guess it's a personal preference. You know, what you see is what
you get when I send you the mix. Of course, you know, if there's minor
changes that they're gonna make, they're gonna make it. But he doesn't tend to like
people in the room with him. So it's interesting to hear your thought that you
don't mind whether people are in the room with you listening to the mixes and
if you're making changes there on the fly, so very interesting. Oh, yeah. I mean,

(39:55):
I'd much rather have people around. I I think it it would pile
up if it was every single day. Right. But, you know, generally
speaking, I think, you know, in person collaboration
is the best is the best way to do it for for me. I
definitely wanna have some time alone with it just to become familiar if they've
been spending all this time, you know, with these recordings and I haven't spent any

(40:18):
just to sit down and and open it up, it's gonna just put me
a little bit behind. You know, I need to kinda get up to speed and
get a a good idea of what's going on. So and there's a lot of
exploring happening, and I don't wanna scare people if I'm gonna be, you know, because
I'll get pretty radical for a second here and there. And you don't
want, you know, people in the back of the room going, oh, no. No. Right.

(40:39):
We don't you're gonna have to keep that down. They can't help it. Like, it's
not fair to Right. To, you know, have some you know, be doing these
radical things and, like, destroying someone's work, but they don't realize
you're just getting familiar with it. So Yeah. Yeah. I I definitely like
some time where they're I don't have to scare them. You know? You
know, Joe, what what's interesting is as you're speaking, I'm realizing one of the

(41:01):
things that I've always loved to do on certain albums, you know,
and and they they do this now where they will put out a
classic album in a, you know, what they call the the
immersive set, like, the five or six CD set of you know, they've
done Pink Floyd's The Wall. They've done, you know, many of these albums. One of
them that they did was an one of my favorite albums from the eighties by

(41:23):
a band called The Waterboys was an album called This is the Sea,
and Mhmm. Mike Scott just put out a six
CD immersive set. And it got me thinking as you were speaking, you
know, on there is many you know, you get to
see the whole process of not only his demos of just, like, piano
voice in in the but then you get to hear the different mixes.

(41:46):
And some of them, like like what you were talking about, are radically
different in terms of direction, in terms of the feel and the
vibe and what the actual mix was doing, how dense it
was, how sparse it was. I mean, full on mixes like that
have radically different directions and radically different,
you know, consequences to them, and and I find that kind of stuff really

(42:08):
fascinating. The Who put out a 10 CD
set of Who's Next, which was the the Project Lighthouse that
b Townshend dismantled to make the Who's Next album, and
they only kept, like, the eight songs. But to listen to that, I mean, when
you know the finished work so well and to study that
process of, like, the mixes and and what the choices

(42:30):
were and weren't, You know? It's it's always interesting to me too what
people don't make a choice to do in in that particular
way. So I I just thought I would throw that in. I I don't know
if you're a fan of that kind of thing on on on albums where you
get to hear, like, all the different choices that people made and then
what they finally ended up choosing to put out as the final product.

(42:50):
Absolutely. I I mean, first off, good for them. Good for the Waterboys to
be that. I mean, it's it's hard to to have that much
courage and to be able to throw something away and make changes because,
you know, people generally get afraid of, well, what if what if someone
else in my band loves it so much and I hate it so much and
there's all these insecurities that come up with that. I

(43:12):
think probably the the most courageous artist I've ever worked with is
U2, and I was I did some recording with the
full band and mixing with them, and they would
come in in the morning and start with a song and
finish the entire thing by the end of the night and do a rough mix,
and they'd be jumping up and down and loving it,

(43:34):
make a rough mix, come in the next day, and just trash the whole thing.
Wow. You know what? It's just not right. What if we did and then
had some other idea, like, what if we did a different key and a
different tempo, but took that, based the whole song around that part that we
recorded in Ireland Two Years ago? You know, so out come the hard drives.
We dig for the file and then start all over again, and then build the

(43:56):
whole song up, do the whole thing, and it all happens
again. The next day, no. That's still not right. Wow. But
I do like that guitar part. What if we took it? Yeah. Started the
song over again today with that guitar part and just
trashed everything else except for the vocal, and I want you know, and just
kept going and kept going. I was like, oh my god. You guys are

(44:19):
are just searching Right. For the thing that they're gonna love
every single day. And I might not have agreed with them, but
I can certainly admire, you know I mean, in other words, I I was a
fan of some of the stuff that they did and threw away. Yeah. And I
was just like, oh, my god. I wish you hadn't thrown that away. I
I I did better. You know, I it's easy to respect them

(44:41):
for their passion about what they're doing. Well, look at what they've done in their
career and how they've reinvented themselves musically so many times. So it's
like, I I guess, a testament that you got to see their process and how
they're able to edit themselves and and say this is no good and I you
know? Yeah. Yeah. Unbelievable. Very loose and open
and free form way of creating, going for

(45:03):
it. You know? There's a great documentary. I I don't know if you've seen it.
It's the documentary that that was made, the classic album series, on the making of
the Joshua tree. And there's the the
part in there where they simply can they they've recorded Where
the Streets Have No Name, which the opening track of the album. And for
whatever reason, they cannot get it right. Brian

(45:24):
Eno is, like, struggling. Lanois says, you know, they don't know.
But I mean, they stayed with it for, like, an inordinate amount of time. And
Mhmm. Bono talks about how he literally
was physically reaching onto the board to, I guess, whatever you
do, to erase the whole thing and start all over. And and he
talks about in the documentary how he luckily, he didn't do it. They had

(45:48):
to physically restrain him, like, from doing that because he was
gonna Uh-huh. You know, do that. And Mark Ronson, who
who did Uptown Funk, talked about Mhmm. That same process with that
song because he said, I had that song for close to a year, and he
said, I just could not get it. He openly admitted that
there are 68 mixes, which I thought, oh my

(46:10):
god. And I I I began to think not only is that an inordinate amount
of mixes, but how do you keep track of what 37 was
versus 19 versus 42? He said there was 68 mixes, and
he was ready to, like, abandon the thing. And somehow, he said somebody,
one of the collaborators or whatever, kept encouraging him to
go, and he said he finally nailed it. And that's ultimately

(46:32):
what he put out, but I just thought, you know, that song came so close
to never coming out for the very reason you're talking about. And it is
fascinating what people, you know, choose to put out and and don't
choose to put out and the way that they choose to put it out. It's
it's all about those choices, like what you're saying. And the bravery, like, you were
talking about of them recording, loving it, doing it, and then saying, you know what?

(46:53):
And I think it's a gun instinct too. It's it's a lot of gun instinct,
and those guys if anybody has a great gut instinct, it's you too. You
too. Exactly. I would say that that's way more common today, as a matter
of fact, just because technology has made it so much easier. I think it's more
the norm now to do that because it's
it's just so much easier. I'll let or save session copy,

(47:15):
erase all that, you know, start all new drums, start
all new everything. I mean, you can do it all so fast. Right. Yeah. So
I think it's way more than norm now, and that's that's a great thing. I
wanted to ask you, Joe, can you talk about, and this is a two parter
for me, about the creative process behind mixing iconic tracks
like Counting Stars from One Republic and Fight Song. And the

(47:37):
second part of that question is, do you have a certain approach, like certain
fundamentals that you start with? I mean, and I'm sure you approach the mixes
differently every time. But is there a certain fundamental thing that you or
process that you go through when you approach an initial mix? Yeah.
The first thing would just be to form my own opinion about it, listening to
their rough mix and some and having it in the session and going back and

(47:59):
forth and just getting familiar with what they've done
and remembering my first impression. That's an important role
for someone to come in after they've spent however much time on
something to get a completely fresh perspective.
And you kinda always wonder, what is it like to listen to this
to the first for the first time? And it's sort of the number one thought

(48:21):
in my mind as a mixer. And even when I before I send it out
to somebody here or before you know, every time I'm making a new
path, okay, I reset. What is it like to hear this for the
first time? And so the getting familiar with
it that way and then finding out what it is that I think
is bothering me about it or what I love about it, what makes the song

(48:43):
work, what's hurting it, and then see if my opinions are gonna
be aligned with them. And maybe that's a conversation verbally
or maybe it's just, you know, playing the mix, you know, my
expression at in a in mixed form. And maybe
that comes with a slight warning like, hey. You know? I tried
going with this approach. You know? Tell me if that's the right direction or maybe

(49:06):
it's a phone call ahead of time to pick their brain about it. It's just
that point is just a gut reaction of what I think it's gonna be and
how well I know the people involved, any previous
conversations they've had or, you know, it's it's kind of all just a gut
reaction sort of feel. But that initial vision
is the one thing I do on everything because I just try and remember that

(49:27):
for the most most of the time and then kind of update it with things
that I learn as I go along. And can you talk about those creative processes
behind mixing those iconic tracks, like, you know, Counting Stars and Fight Song?
Counting Stars was one I just kinda went, woah. This is great.
Just as soon as I heard it, I went, wow. Because I, you know, I
that was my, what, third or fourth album with the band. Right.

(49:50):
And even started recording them. So I I know them
personally, and there's so many songs that we've worked on that aren't haven't even
been released. And so to have that one come up over the
the board, I just went, oh, wow. Okay. This is cool. And it didn't
need much. It was there was mostly, like, some low end and then just a
lot of vocal rides and little vocal, you know,

(50:12):
depth tricks and just sort of emotional enhancements to
because he he goes from low to high and to mid, and he's belting, and
there's some backgrounds, and there's a lot of that. So it would generally be
to to get the low end right and then to get his vocal
right and then to sort of, you know, mix everything in around
it and work in a circular way, going back and forth, maybe

(50:34):
another tweak on the drums, maybe some more on the on the low end just
a little bit, a few more rides on the vocal, and just keep going around
and around. But, generally, that that was pretty quick, and I think there
were I think he changed a word in that song, and he sent
me a he sent me a new word. Right? He's always doing something like that,
a new bridge. Or sometimes I'll get a a bridge from him that's

(50:56):
gibberish. There's no there's no actual words in it. Mhmm. He's like,
I know. I'm still writing it. I'll I'll get it to you in a second.
And then I'll get one, and I'll put it in, and he'll you know, on
the mix three, he'll send the last line again, and he'll change the
timing and the pitch and the melody. So it's always, you know,
there's some some other changes going on. Sometimes there might be some pianos or some

(51:17):
other background vocals that come on after mix two or three or
whatever. Counting stars in particular, I think it was just that one
word and maybe a couple tweaks, and I have I remember
it was mix three that was the final. Wow. And and
and do you you mentioned it earlier when you got the initial rough mix from
them. Do you ever encounter that where you get a mix that's like, wow, this

(51:39):
is already almost there and you feel like you just gotta do
yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Definitely. I mean, especially now because
people are have their own systems and their own studios, and they just
tweak and tweak and tweak and get it close. And, you know, sometimes I have
to call them and say, hey. Is there something you want me to
do? Yeah. Exactly. Wow. Wow. So that yeah.

(52:01):
That that that happens from time to time, and I respect that, and that's great.
And and, you know, other times, I I have to sort of show
them what it could be, and I and I kinda I sometimes
I'll turn into mixes, and I'll say, okay. I understand that you're super
proud of this. So this is your mix plus, like, 5%, just
a little kiss. And then here's a version that that also happened,

(52:23):
which is more like 25, 30 five percent different than
yours. And then just let them run with that and see if they get
inspired by something. Joe, you know, you touched on this
earlier when you talked about, you know, some of the technology and
and things in terms of how they impacted your work. And I'm curious,
what motivated you to explore mixing in Dolby Atmos,

(52:46):
and how has it changed your approach to music? It hasn't changed my approach to
music yet. I would love to to record
in the format with people in the room making
those decisions in real time. I think that would be a real leap
forward with the whole Dolby thing. Up until I mean, it's it's it's cool, and
there are some records that are that are really cool that way, others, not so

(53:08):
much. And I really hope that that that they there's a
few records in Dolby that start from the very beginning because you can
do much different arrangement arrangements in general,
and and that's just physics. And, you know, you're trying to push a lot of
low end out two speakers, and you want a Rhodes and cellos and
bassoons and trombones and background vocals and upright bass

(53:30):
and toms, it's not gonna fit. Something has to get carved out. And it's the
same for an orchestra. You know? They that's why you have so many violins
and so many basses because that's the amount that you can
do without muddying things up, and that that's what can can
still be, you know, expressed with with the physics involved. So
that changes when you have eleven, twelve, 13 speakers in the room. The

(53:53):
physics change completely, and so you have all this space and all
this power and all this clarity to work with. So at some
point, I hope that happens. We'll see. I mean, that's the big
question with Atmos is we'll see. Know, everyone has to take a step
forward at the same time or you gotta pass the baton, the manufacturers,
the the artists, the record labels, the delivery

(54:15):
mediums, everything else. Everyone's gotta take a giant step forward to keep
it going. And I I don't know. I don't know how it's gonna go.
Joe, I wanted to ask you, you know, how do you ensure that your mixes
translate well across the the different listening environments? I mean, we're just talking
about Atmos, and I'm just curious. Listen on those environments. I
have a normal my normal everyday listening environment

(54:38):
has, you know, one, two, three, four, five things to
listen to. Most of those are consumer. Yeah. 90%
of those are consumer, and I have a really amazing pair of ATC
45 that are super high end pro, and everything
else is consumer. And then the room is is finely tuned, so I'm
not getting lied to in terms of frequency response and mostly

(55:00):
bass. And having that consistency in the room isn't helping to
generate something that's, you know, incorrect. But, yeah,
just regular stuff, headphones, listen at low volumes. You know,
the Fletcher Munson curve is a, you know, an engineering
psychoacoustic, you know, concept where there's a a volume that
you listen to where all frequencies are generally going to be most

(55:22):
accurate in other situations, which is around 85, 90 dB.
So, you know, if you're making a lot of decisions too loud or too on
two biggest speakers or too quiet on two, you know,
crappy little speakers, you know, you just have to find a nice
balance there, and that practicing that, you know, daily
for years and years is what I find gets you there.

(55:45):
Joe, I I I wanna ask you a sort of a a personal
creative question regarding your work, and that is do do you find
it creatively challenging to work on multiple
projects simultaneously? No. Love it.
Love it. Well, challenging, yeah. I mean, everything's challenging. But
is it is it, like, in a negative challenging? No. It's a very positive

(56:07):
challenging. Just being a fan of so many different genres and artists
and different sounds no. I welcome
it. Everything is challenging. Even things that I do on a daily basis is
always challenging because it everything is sort of new. I mean,
sometimes drastically new, sometimes subtly new, but you're always
trying to push on for something new and not really trying to repeat exactly

(56:30):
what's happening. Can you share any strategies
for managing client expectations during the mixing process? I mean,
you kinda touched on it a little bit earlier. Yeah. I mean, it's a gut
reaction. That's a great question, and and it's
that evolves into different formats. Like, if you're on the phone with
somebody versus an email versus text, you know, the

(56:52):
communication can always can always vary. I prefer like, if
ever in doubt, just get on the phone because there's nothing like hearing
inflection in people's voices and give the people a chance to
say more than just, you know, self editing down to a
text. Right. And that that generally clears up everything real
quickly. Let me ask you, Joe. I mean, you you had talked about this when

(57:13):
we started the conversation with regards to some of your
education. And I'm curious, what role do you think music
theory plays in your work as a mix engineer? Well, mostly in
arrangement. I I tend to think of frequencies, and this
is kind of this is a little more technical, but I tend to think of
frequencies more as notes than as frequencies and notes in an

(57:35):
arrangement. And so, like, the one thing that I would say I took from,
like, learning jazz piano was a class that I had,
and those you can have these very colorful voicings. And,
you know, if you spread a minor nine out amongst, you know, three or four
octaves, it can sound amazing. But if you put them right together in the bass,
it's just gonna sound like mud or maybe even wrong or something. Or it gives

(57:57):
you just a different feeling, and that could be very useful as well.
But knowing that the arrangement of of the
notes is more than just frequencies, they're actual notes. And there
could be leading tones that cause something to be more exciting or have
more tension before they're released. So you wanna know or you wanna know, like, if
you're listening to, you know, six keyboards or eight keyboards

(58:19):
or playing a pad, you I might put my ear on it for a second
and go, okay. Playing all of these things are playing the
exact same voicing. You know? And maybe I can hear that it's the
fifth on the bottom or the root on the bottom or whatever octave they're playing.
It's like, no. All these are in the same they're playing the same note, basically.
You have five things playing the same note. We need them all. What what is

(58:41):
it doing? Should we carve some of this out? Or there's a certain voicing
of a chord. Am I hearing all the notes in this? What does that do
to the song? What instruments are actually
playing those notes and or expressing that voicing or that chord or
whatever. So that's generally how I would use theory and
mixing. How do you balance, Joe, with your busy

(59:03):
career, having a family with the demands of your music career? Like I said
earlier, technology is a huge help. It's a huge help in having my own
studio, not doubting what it sounds like, getting familiar with
my traveling setup so that I know how to use that
quickly. And, you know, as as unfocused as
people clients can be at times or busy, there's actual

(59:24):
freedom in that, and it it frees me up to to stand up
and just walk out of the room and stop mixing for, you know, four hours
or whatever to go to a school event or a family thing
or whatever. Because I can do it later, or I can do it,
you know, when whenever whenever I have to. So there's a tremendous amount
of freedom for that. And so, you know, like I said earlier, I I

(59:47):
have to take advantage of the good parts. Yeah. Precisely. It's it's that's
that's the important part. Joe, I wanna ask you, you know, looking back,
are there any decisions that you've made that you feel have
significantly shaped your career path in the music industry?
Oh, tough one. I I mean, the one that really just jumps out is to
stick with it because there were so many so many times to where I

(01:00:09):
thought about quitting or just looking for a way out or to do
something else. So it was really the perseverance and the
sort of, you know, there's no plan b. Because I definitely had plan b
and plan c and d up until my late
twenties, probably, mid to late twenties. And then at
some point, I just said no, you know, in a very terrified

(01:00:31):
way. Said no. This is gonna be plan a, and that's there's no
other plan. So yeah. Is that does that answer your question?
Yeah. Absolutely. Throughout your life, are there any books or
films that have really inspired you professionally speaking
that you can share with our audience? I would pretty much watch anything
and everything at some point, usually right

(01:00:52):
away. There was a great Stacks one, Stacks dot
com. Last month or two months ago? Just recently. Yeah. Yeah. And there was a
great one a a bunch of years ago too. And it's great to watch both
of them because they both have different perspectives, and they tell the story differently.
I love that story and all those stories in it. Absolutely
amazing. Yeah. But, yeah, I would like I like to read, you know,

(01:01:14):
biographies. Tony Visconti is really great. It's very interesting.
Yeah. And, you know, any sort of film or
or documentary on the making of or anything is always of interest to me,
and I love I love to check it out. The the new Beatles one well,
four years ago, the Beatles was a Get Back Yeah. In
studio. Fascinating. Incredible. Incredible. The one

(01:01:36):
thing that I that I thought was the most fascinating about that particular
documentary was we are watching that fifty
four years later. Okay? Mhmm. And we
know in watching it the outcome of all of
those songs. But what was most fascinating to me is if you watch
the whole thing, the amount of songs that

(01:01:59):
they talk about and even play a little bit of
that were never on Beatles records, that were to come,
you know, years Jealous Guy and Mhmm. You know, something
by by George Harrison and and things that were you know, that
McCartney would put out On his solo stuff. Yes. Yes. Three, four years
later after this. To me, one of the things that I thought was fascinating about

(01:02:21):
that was it showed the incredible depth
of creativity that they had during that period. I mean, they
were starting that documentary. They they had, what, thirty days to come up
with 14 songs, and they hadn't you know, when the documentary starts, they hadn't
done one. And that whole album, let it be, was done in something like, I
think, like, forty days from writing, recording, and and, you

(01:02:43):
know, and it was fascinating. And then they decide not to put it out. Yeah.
They they did Abbey Road instead and then put it out
a year later after they finished doing it. It's like you know, I mean, can
you imagine it's you were talking earlier about not putting out a song or
recording a song in a day and not putting imagine doing an entire album
that you spent and just you know what? We're not gonna put this out. Yeah.

(01:03:05):
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Casual about it. Right. Yeah. We'll write another
one. Write another album. Write another song. Right. Well, that's a testament to them.
They were journeymen just starting out doing the covers and all the stuff that they
I mean, that's really a testament to I mean, and those guys couldn't even read
music. I mean, it's just insane Yeah. What they have done and the impact
that they've had. Yeah. And to see that they Really wonderful.

(01:03:28):
To come right off that and then to say, okay. Now we're gonna do Abbey
Road. I mean, it's like and to think, like, you know, because none of the
stuff I mean, I I don't know if any of the things, maybe one or
two of them were written at the time, but to come up with Abbey Road
after all Afterwards. Yeah. Like and that's an astonishingly brilliant
album, Abbey Road. I mean, that's, you know astonishing. And and not even to consider

(01:03:48):
what they've just thrown away. Exact exactly. And
not to bring any of those back. Like, no. Here here's a bunch of new
ones. Right. Exactly. Just incredible. Un
unbelievable. We always ask our, our
professionals this question, which is, especially in your field,
what advice would you give to aspiring engineers and producers who

(01:04:10):
are looking to build careers today for themselves? Yeah. That's a tough
one. The one thing that has sort of stayed true to the or stayed the
same between, you know, the past and today is that if you it's
just the love for it that you have and the passion that you have for
it. And, you know, if if you do have a
drive to do that and it feels fulfilling just to to make something

(01:04:31):
without the result of it happening, you know, it's definitely a good start for
you. And I would say the other thing I would say is just do what
you're good at because I would I mean, if I had to just
choose right now and say what I would have done at that
age when I was first starting out, I would have chosen probably producer
and songwriter. I am neither. I mean, actually, I've done I've done a bunch of

(01:04:53):
producing, but that's not what people were telling me I was great at. So the
and I listened to them, and that's how the phone rang, and I
that's how I accepted the job. So I think doing what you're good at is
very important. You know? Don't try and kill yourself. That can always be a hobby
for you to do something that you're not that good at. And, you know, it
takes a lot of time and effort to get good at something to find out

(01:05:13):
whether or not you do have some talent for it, so you have to just
take some chances. Yeah. And and I would imagine throughout your career, you have worked
with some brilliant producers throughout your your
life. Yeah. And you know what? It makes it a lot easier to decide when
you when you get in contrast with, like, as a guitar like,
unfortunately, it kind of killed my guitar playing over the years, just

(01:05:34):
seeing so many unbelievable musicians so that when I pick up my
guitar, I just kinda go, that's not what I wanna hear, and I put it
down. But, you know, then the opposite is true. When they you know, those
guitar players bring me their recording, and in five
minutes, I get a drum sound, and they just look at me like, how the
fuck did you do that? Right. I'm like, I don't know. It's easy. I don't

(01:05:55):
know. Yeah. So that's a good
that's a good place to be, you know, and find your find your
peers and find out where you belong. And it just you know, it takes
some it takes some rejection, takes some heartbreaking, takes a lot of time
unless you're really lucky, and it's worth it. Flipping that question around,
Joe, for you, what advice would you give to any aspiring

(01:06:17):
musicians that are looking to build a careers for themselves today?
What would you tell them? Well, obviously, get good at your instrument.
Be be well versed at it. It sounds stupid, but there are people who
don't. And so or people who think that it's really not that
important. And I don't I don't mean, like, you have to be able to
play every style or every thing. What good means is

(01:06:39):
what good is to you. Like, if you can if you
can confidently walk into a room and say, I'm good to
somebody, and that doesn't mean you know, they might be able to say, well, I'm
I'm sorry. I'm bad at jazz or I'm bad at rock and roll or whatever.
That's fine. Just know what you what you are and what you can
what you can do and what you aspire to do. And then keep an open

(01:07:00):
mind. Keep an open mind and, you know, build relationships with
people and stay positive about it. Joe, let me ask you. If if
people wanna work with you, what is the best way for them to reach you?
Email with a description of what they're doing and maybe a couple
links to what they've been working on or just any sort of
introduction that they represent themselves.

(01:07:22):
Jzook@joezook.net, which is also on my
website. Oh, okay. So joe zook On the contact page.
Beautiful. So joe zook dot net. Yeah. Beautiful.
Joe, we we really we we cannot thank you enough for taking the time to
do this. We are so grateful to you. I mean, this was a wonderful great
conversation. Wonderful conversation and lot of great, great stuff that

(01:07:43):
came out of it. Thank you. Great. Thank you, guys. Thank you both so much.
Wow. What a great conversation. Yeah. You know, Joe
is a master. I mean, his work, I think, speaks for itself.
This is a man who really is at the top of his game, knows what
he's doing. So many things to, to to talk about here, Eric.
You know, one of the things that stood out was, you know, at the top

(01:08:05):
when he talked about how, you know, to overcome limitations that he
experienced in Austin, he pursued further education for a four
year degree. And he said that this is what led him to Los Angeles where
he, you know, got to expand his professional knowledge. And what I thought was so
fascinating about that is that it went to the core of what MUBUTV is all
about, which is about educating yourself Right. About putting the time and

(01:08:27):
energy. Joe is an illustration of that, his own career, and what, you
know, he talked about in terms of doing that for himself has led to the
career that he's had about his business. Yeah. I also felt that talking about
when he talked about internships, which is near and dear to my heart, you know,
he said, you know, one of my first professionals experiences was during
an internship in Austin where he got to work with modern recording

(01:08:49):
technology and techniques. It was around this time that he also learned how to
work effectively around distractions, which I thought was a really
great point in that interview where he could Oh my god. Yes. He would just
learn I think he was at he was putting distractions or making
noises and things so he can kinda tune those things out so he can stay
focused. And I thought that was a brilliant, brilliant strategy for him to overcome.

(01:09:10):
Absolutely. That that was a fascinating one because I had not heard that kind
of perspective before, but yet that's so important. The the other thing that I thought
that I remember that I thought was really, really interesting was he talked about, you
know, after completing a project, he wants to distance himself from it
and revisit it years later with a fresh perspective. And what I thought was so
interesting about this, Eric, was that he he said that it helped him

(01:09:31):
appreciate the work differently and sometimes find it better or
worse than initially perceived. And I totally understand what he was talking
about. Time does give you a different perspective. Right. That's true
in life. Right. I mean, even just relating it to our own work. To your
work. Yeah. Exactly. I was just gonna say, you can look at something and go,
my god. That was terrible. Then you come back to it and go, man. That

(01:09:52):
wasn't so bad. So bad. It's I remember it, or I felt in the
moment. And then we've done that with with interviews. Exactly. God. That was
just awful. Right. And then when you put And we and it was us that
that we thought that we were awful, not the guest, but us. Yes. Exactly. And
or that it wasn't dynamic or that it wasn't interesting. Right. Or we focus
on some other idiosyncratic aspect of, you know, the guest was this

(01:10:14):
or what. Then we listen back to it and it's like, wait a minute. This
was really informative Right. Great interview. And and
and I think that that's an important factor that, you know, you you know,
artists, writers, musicians, you have to give that kind of
perspective to your work because time does make a difference, and you can see
things differently, you know, when you give things space. Yeah. And I also thought about

(01:10:35):
his time in Austin. You know, he talked about that he gained a lot of
client interaction skills while working amidst chaotic
environments, and and this experience was crucial in shaping his professional
demeanor. You know, how to deal with different characters and egos and
how to kind of work around those situations, which I think is an absolute
crucial skill set to have. Oh, I couldn't agree more. You know, many

(01:10:57):
people have often many producers have often said that the
one of the most important factors in being a great record
producer is learning how to get an artist.
Rick Rubin talks about this a lot. How to get an artist to perform
to the maximum of their potential. Now that it it sounds
simple and maybe, you know, simplistic to say, but

(01:11:19):
there is a real art to that. You know, whether it's about tuning out
the distractions or about getting them to be comfortable enough to
do their best work. Hey, Insiders. Thanks so much for tuning into
this episode. We really appreciate it. To get show notes, links,
and everything that was mentioned during this interview, head on over to our official
website at
mubutv.com/podcast/shownotes.

(01:11:42):
If you're enjoying the content and what we're doing here on the show, please subscribe
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charts on iTunes and our space. You can also find us at social

(01:12:04):
media at Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and Twitter
x, all ending with the handle MUBUTV, which is spelled m
u b u TV. Don't forget to catch our flagship show, the
MUBUTV Music Business Insider Video Series, airing
every week on YouTube at
youtube.com/MUBUTV. This
show was produced and created by Ritch Esra and Eric Knight. Theme

(01:12:27):
music by Disciples of Babylon, and be sure to tune in next week for
another episode of the MUBUTV Music Business Insider
Podcast.

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