Top Music Attorney Ben McLane REVEALS the Biggest Contract Mistakes Artists Make

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
On today's podcast, we sit down with renowned music attorney, Ben

(00:03):
Mclane. Ben has worked with countless artists across the industry and
is the author of Music Business in 10 Easy Lessons.
We dive deep into how record deals are evolving, the new landscape new
landscape of distribution and artist rights, and the essentials every
artist needs to know before signing with a label or
investor. Ben shares the key pitfalls to avoid, reveals

(00:25):
his top book and film recommendations for industry insiders, and
offers his best advice for building a lasting career as a songwriter,
producer, or artist. Whether you're just starting out or looking to protect your
creative work, this conversation is packed with actionable
insights you won't want to miss. Insiders, are you
ready? Welcome to MUBUTV's Music

(00:48):
Business Insider Podcast, where our mission is to educate,
empower, and engage artists and music business professionals who are
dedicated to having a successful career in the new music industry.
Here are your hosts, Ritch Esra and Eric Knight. Welcome
back, insiders, to another episode of the MUBUTV Music
Business Insider Podcast, where our mission is to educate,

(01:10):
empower, and engage your music career. On today's episode, we
sit down with renowned music attorney and author, Ben Mclane. If you're
an emerging artist, producer, or songwriter looking to navigate the
complexities of record deals, licensing, and investment in today's
music industry, you won't wanna miss this conversation. We dive deep
into how record deals have evolved, the critical elements every artist

(01:32):
should look out for when negotiating with labels and distributors, and how to protect
the ownership of your music. Ben also shares invaluable insight on
partnering with investors and highlights the potential pitfalls to
avoid, including the hidden language that can cost you your rights and
revenue. Plus, we explore what really holds artists back from
success, the importance of work ethic and content output, and

(01:54):
Ben's top book recommendations for anyone aspiring to have a long
lasting career in music. If you've ever wondered what it takes to build a
solid foundation and thrive as a creator in this industry, then
this episode is for you. So stay tuned. You'll walk away with the
knowledge and confidence to make smarter decisions for your music career.
But first, a word from our sponsor. Hey, Insiders. Are you an

(02:16):
aspiring musician, artist, band, or future music business
professional looking to take your career to the next level? Well, look no
further. At MUBUTV, we offer personalized career counseling and
coaching designed specifically for folks like you. Imagine having
both of us by your side, guiding you through every step of your music journey.
Our sessions are tailored to meet your unique needs, focusing on critical

(02:38):
aspects of your music career such as refining your songs, defining
your artist story, identifying your target audience, and enhancing your
social media presence just to name a few. Whether you're just starting
out or looking to elevate your existing career, we've got you covered. Our
comprehensive approach ensures you get insights on everything
from live shows to branding and marketing strategies. We

(03:00):
understand that every artist is unique. That's why our coaching
is personalized just for you. And here's the best part. We offer
flexible coaching packages that fit any budget. Choose from individual
sessions ranging from thirty to ninety minutes or save with our discounted four
session packages. Experience custom sessions designed to enhance your
music career with opportunities for greater savings when you choose bundled

(03:22):
sessions. Investing in your musical journey has never been more
accessible. Imagine the clarity and direction you'll gain
after just one session. The feedback on your songs, the strategies
to grow your audience, and the confidence to perform live, all
tailored just for you. So why wait? Don't let uncertainty hold
you back. Join us for your free fifteen minute discovery call at

(03:44):
book.mubutv.com for a transformative coaching
experience that will elevate your music career. That's
book.mubutv.com.
Hi. This is Jesse Kaye from New Agency, c, and you're
listening to the MUBUTV Music Business
Insider Podcast. Welcome back, insiders. Today, we welcome back a

(04:06):
special friend of the podcast, Ben Mclane. I've known Ben for
many, many years as you have. We're he's actually a returning guest to the show.
Yeah. He's one of the original 10 that came out on the video series when
we first launched back in 2012. Absolutely. Yeah. I it's hard to
thirteen years ago. Yeah. Oh my god. It's unbelievable that it's been that long. Time
flies. It's unbelievable. And this was a really, really

(04:27):
interesting conversation, you know, not only from the perspective of
the music industry, but for some of the things that that we got into
in this conversation as you're gonna hear. One of the most interesting, Eric, for me
was the whole concept of licensing versus ownership. This goes
to the heart of the transformation of the music business from a copy model to
an access model because behind that statement is that technology

(04:50):
has allowed everybody today to make music. There's no long you
know, it wasn't that long ago, ladies and gentlemen, when making records was
something that was as expensive as a house, literally, and you needed the
resources of a record company to pay for recordings. You
know, they were, like, even on the cheap side, $60.80
grand, 90 grand to make a record on some low top end, a hundred and

(05:12):
50, 2 hundred and 50, 3 50, 4 50. I mean, it got
really, really expensive to make records. I mean, I knew people that were making
records for $850,000, and they still needed more
money, you know. So this was a very, very important part
because a lot of artists today are making their own recordings, and that's the
part that I thought was so interesting because it puts them in a position of

(05:33):
power for ownership. Yeah. Yeah. That's that was the interesting part of
it. Yeah. Which I think is so important in this day and age. One
of the other points that I thought was really great, you know, me, I'm from
the artist side. I felt that artist's independence with what Ben is about to tell
you in this interview, don't rely on managers or labels to do all the work
for you. Success requires constant hustle, releasing content, and

(05:55):
pushing your own career forward. I mean, how many times have we said that, Rich,
in our show? So many. Yeah. Where we can't, you know, you can't want this
more I I can't want this more than you. That's absolutely right. You are
so right with that, Eric, because it's it's what you're talking about is
something deeper than that. It's a consciousness. It's a consciousness that that we
have talked about endlessly on the show that has to be raised. The

(06:17):
manager is gonna give is gonna give me a career. If I only had an
agent. Exactly. And that's not the way it works. So so it's something to
really consider and a a lot of great content that's coming up on this episode.
So with that insider, sit back, relax, and enjoy our featured
conversation from Musexpo 2025 with Ben Mclane.
Ben, welcome back. Thanks for having me again. It's

(06:40):
great it's great to see you. You know, I wanna start off with you. How
have record deals evolved in recent years, especially in terms of
artists' ride and distribution models? And I guess, you know, the question
being, what should emerging artists be aware of when negotiating with
labels or distributors to ensure that they retain control of their
music? Okay. Yes. In the old days, labels,

(07:02):
not so much distributors, but record companies, if they were funding the
sound recording, the master, the record, but that's a single, an EP, or an album,
they would tend to own it because they paid for it, and that's
traditionally the way it was done. And they you'll see work for hire
language in the recording contracts. You always have to look for that
when you're doing a a deal with a label or even a distributor

(07:26):
because that's still the way it's usually presented to me when I'm representing
an artist if a label's paying for it. But if the artist is creating the
record themselves on their own dime, which they tend to do more frequently
these days, they own that sound recording. That's a copyright.
And they should try to get a licensing deal instead
where the label that's putting it out and promoting it would still have an adequate

(07:49):
amount of time to make their money back because they're gonna have to spend money
to at least promote it, but they didn't spend money to make it. Remember? Although
sometimes they wanna try to buy it from you, but, really, unless
somebody's giving you a big check, I would say try to hold out and own
your rights. Could could you imagine if you were Nirvana and maintain
ownership of, you know, their original albums that ended up at you know, at the

(08:10):
time, they probably thought we're just a punk rock band. Right. Never gonna sell anything,
but then it ended up being worth hundreds of millions of dollars. So it's probably
better to try to maintain your rights if you can, and that's the sound recording
copyright. The other copyright you hear about is publishing, which is a
composition songwriting, but that has nothing to do with the
master of the record. Usually, the label's not trying to grab

(08:31):
publishing. Let's hope. Distributors, they're really just putting your record
out on platforms mostly. The DSPs, Spotify,
Amazon, you know, those the you know, for streaming, really. So
it though they usually don't try to grab ownership of right
and most of them don't do any marketing anyway. So and when you're doing a
deal like that, try to I I always try to keep the term short. You

(08:54):
know, try to keep one, two, three years if you can. If you're happy, you
can continue with it. But they usually want exclusivity, so you can't be putting
it out through different channels. So that's that's an important thing. But
even if you do a a deal with a record label, they usually want it
to be long term because they're promoting your first record, and then they want
options for more because they're helping develop you. At least

(09:16):
that's the the way it's supposed to be. So but try always try to get
a shorter term deal if you can because if you're happy, you could
extend it. And always try to own the masters if you
can. Try to ask for a licensing deal. It's worth asking for. If you can't
get a licensing deal, you can ask for a reversion, which means
at some point in the future, once the label maybe makes their money back ten,

(09:37):
fifteen, twenty years, they they might give you the the master back. Although,
a lot of companies wanted to build a catalog. Because you can imagine
Capitol Records may not exist today if they didn't own the Beatles Masters
or RCA if they didn't own the Elvis Masters. So I you know,
still the mentality is I don't think labels voluntarily wanna
give the rights back. But depending on your leverage in the negotiation,

(10:00):
sometimes you can get it back in the future. So those are the kind of
things you might wanna try to look out for. But that those things haven't really
changed. It's always been the way you'd wanna negotiate a deal. If you're repping
an artist, if you're on the label side, it's just the reverse. Ben, in
your book, you cover the role of investors in the music
industry. And I'm curious, how can artists best assess the value

(10:21):
of investors in their career or business model? And what are the
key considerations that they need to keep in mind when partnering with an investor to
avoid pitfalls down the line? What if you're a new artist,
unless you're independently wealthy, and if you're not with a record company, you're going to
need an an investor to help you make,
produce a great sounding record and or market

(10:44):
the record, then you're gonna need to do both. I mean, it doesn't make any
sense to make a great record if you're not gonna market it properly and
and vice versa. So and a and a rule of thumb would be
if you're spending a dollar on recording, you should spend a dollar
on marketing. But, obviously, it could be thousands, if not
hundreds of thousands of dollars to really do it. Right. Depending on who you are,

(11:05):
what kind of artist you are. But but investors can fill that gap of
funding. You just have to be careful if you're taking money from somebody.
You know, if you're somebody's gonna give you something, they're gonna want something in
return. You just wanna make sure it's fair. But, again, if I'm negotiating
for an artist, I'm really coming from the artist's perspective here. Try to
always maintain ownership of this of the

(11:28):
copyrights. You you you'd wanna pay people off from the profits that
are earned from the release of your record. You don't want so and that
can vary. Some people just want their money back, and some people want
their money back plus a profit. And sometimes people want a profit
that's quite large and could be many, many, many years down the line. And
we know that streaming sometimes doesn't translate into a lot of

(11:51):
big dollars until you're getting into maybe the millions of streams category. So a lot
of investors would say, well, how am I gonna make my money back just
off this streaming business? So I think I'd wanna also make
money off your touring money, your merchandising money, maybe
your songwriting money. So and that's not necessarily a bad thing. You
just have to maybe put caps on things like that and and try to

(12:13):
limit what the investor's getting paid back out of. Because otherwise,
you can't you need money to flow through to you as the artist so you
can live too. So, I mean, those so, you know,
just the return on investment to the investor, just try to
try to always keep something that you know, you want you wanna incentivize people to
give you money and feel like they're getting something in return for it, but

(12:35):
just try to stay within reason. And a lot of times with new
artists, I'm going through this right now with a young artist, she doesn't really realize
a big picture. She just wants to be super generous, you know. And
the investor's more like a friend, so it's enough to take advantage of them,
but she I think she wants to be too generous in my opinion. And I
said, later, you might regret this. So just try to try to keep

(12:57):
things in check if you can. Yeah. Very much so. You know, I I
wanted to ask you. With with the rise of streaming platforms and various
licensing opportunities, especially in film and TV and
video games and advertisement, are are there some sort of key
terms that you feel artists and songwriters need to look out
for when negotiating a sync licensing deal? Again, that's

(13:19):
since it you mentioned that it is a licensing deal. So
just always make sure that there's no sneaky language in those
agreements where you're transferring any ownership of your copyrights.
It really should be a license. And and usually, if somebody's putting your music,
let's just say in an episode of a television show or in a in a
movie, it's it's really just a one off situation. So it

(13:42):
should be a non exclusive license. So you could continue to
license that song a million different ways. But because
if you ever see the word exclusive, that means you could only give it to
those people. Sometime and then to the and then you can't use it any other
way in any other sync opportunities, film, TV, commercials. So just
make sure and sometimes that's okay. You know, if somebody's gonna wanna use your

(14:04):
music, let's just say for a Honda commercial, which would be a big budget thing.
I mean, they might give you several hundred thousand dollars, a million dollars for
the right to use that song. Let's hope. Right? So they they may want an
exclusive either saying you can't use that song for
anything for a period of time. It could be a year, two, three, four years.
Or it would say you can't use it in any other automobile

(14:25):
related commercial. But you could put it in a Coke commercial because that those aren't
competing. Correct. They just don't want you, you know, now
doing a Ford commercial. It's a competition. The but those but
generally speaking, 90% of the time, sync licenses are
nonexclusive. And but once it's in the program, it's
in there forever. You can't pull your music out. So you will see perpetuity

(14:48):
language, which takes forever. You could but that doesn't mean you
that that doesn't mean that they can keep putting your music and things in
perpetuity. It just means that one show that that episode, once
it's created and goes out on it's released, it it exists forever.
And then it's gonna go onto the Internet, YouTube, etcetera. So you can't although
in the old days, you'll notice some of these shows, let's just say, Golden

(15:10):
Girls. You you know, the theme song for that originally was Andrew Gold's Thank
You for Being a Friend with him singing. In the later episodes, you'll notice
it's thank you for being a friend with somebody else singing. Right. Because I
think that, you know, he must have done like a like a term licensing thing,
and then they he wanted probably wanted a lot. I'm only guessing here. Wanted a
lot of money, and they're like, we'll just rerecord that with somebody else. Right. We

(15:31):
don't need to pay you again. Exactly. But now I'm noticing these single
it usually says, once we put it in that show, it's in perpetuity. So
but I think way back in the day, there was ways you could maybe put
term limits on that, but I haven't seen that in a long time. So you
just have to be again, nothing wrong with that. It's just sometimes see the word
perpetuity. You have to see make sure you know the context that it's Right.

(15:52):
Hey, Insiders. We hope that you've been enjoying our featured conversation.
Stay tuned because we've got so much value coming your way. But before we
dive back in, a word from our sponsor. Hey, Eric. As an artist,
what do you find are the most challenging aspects to a music
career especially when you're starting out? Well, I think one of the first things is
just trying to get the direction of who you are as an artist, where you

(16:14):
wanna go, where you wanna be. And, you know, we've talked about it on the
show a lot. Who is your target audience? Who you are? Who what do
you stand for? What do you believe in? What do you think would resonate with
an audience? And so those are some of the things that I would feel being
a new artist. I obviously, what I know now is different because I know these
things but for people that are out there like our audience that don't necessarily

(16:34):
any direction to go would be the first things that I would start off with.
And having the songs that incorporate those elements
that you're speaking of into it. That's so important today. Yeah. And I
think that's one of the reasons why we started MUBUTV and why we started this
new consulting service that we're offering to all of our insiders out there because
that is another one of the big things. I mean, that is the big thing

(16:55):
is like having the great songs. That's what it really starts off. Our friend,
Don Grierson always said, it always starts with a great song. So that's
probably besides putting together what your audience and what your target
audience is is the single most important thing. Where are your songs at
currently today? Are you collaborating with people? Are you trying to go
out to networking events where you can connect with other songwriters and stuff

(17:17):
like that? So Yeah. And what are your strengths? Exactly. You know, are are you
a strong lyric writer? Are you a strong melody writer? Are you a
strong musician, a player? Right. You know, and it's really important to
get really strong clarity on those issues before
proceeding. I totally agree, Rich. And, you know, with our consulting
services, we offer a myriad of different packages that we've made it super

(17:38):
affordable for everybody. So, you know, if you guys are interested out there in
connecting with us on a coaching call, you can visit
book.mubutv.com and start off with a free
fifteen minute discovery call. Well, yeah. Absolutely. That we start with an
initial fifteen minute call where we can get a sense of who you are. What
are the issues that you specifically have and want to work

(17:59):
on? Exactly. And we can go from there. Absolutely. Yeah. And we tailor
everything to your needs. It's not like a cookie cutter thing. We kind of really
wanna get to know who you are as an artist, where you at today, what's
the snapshot of you as an artist today, and then start trying to
craft something that's tailor made for you. So again, if you're interested, visit
us at book.MUBUTV.com for your fifteen minute

(18:21):
discovery call. Hi. This is stylist Dina Cerchione from DMC styles, and
you're listening to the MUBUTV Music Business Insider podcast.
Ben, throughout your career, you know, you've worked with a lot of acts. And
what do you feel holds artists back from having success in their
careers? Well, some artists are I think they're not
lazy per se. I don't wanna mention any names, but sometimes they

(18:43):
just, like, hey. I'll make a great record, and then everything else
takes care of itself. I'll find a manager to do all the heavy
lifting, or I'll get a deal, and they'll do everything. And that's great if it
works out that way. But number one, it may you may never find that
person or third party. And a lot of those people wouldn't even wanna be involved
if they didn't see you putting in the efforts yourself. So

(19:05):
it it just seems like artists these days unfortunately, Eric, you
know, as an artist yourself, you have to make record and you really have to
Yeah. Hustle and do some of the marketing things. You can't wait
on any of that. And so I think a lot of people aren't really
prepared to do that or wanna do that or or they
just wanna fight, rebel against it because they think something's gonna come

(19:27):
along. Yeah. And then you have your window of time. You don't wanna waste too
much time. Exactly. Yeah. I find it very disheartening when I see
an artist that has put so much effort into their thing, and then they just
put it out there. And it's like, okay. Well, if it does good, it's gonna
do good. If not and it's just like, man, you're really missing the the
the ball of what's going on here and what what what you really need to
do, and and it's it's an interesting phenomenon that happens. So yeah. Well

(19:50):
well, that and I think you have to be prepared to put a
lot of content out. And if the first thing's a hit, great.
But even if it is, there's people are gonna expect a follow-up, and chances
are it's not gonna be. So you have to keep putting stuff out. And and
even if I've found with some clients, even if they never really have a hit
in the traditional sense, when they have a lot of music out there, it is

(20:11):
all generating streams and potential sync
opportunities, so it makes money for you. Yeah. Yeah. So the more
content you have out, the the better. And and and, you know, I'm not a
creator myself, so I'm not saying it's easy to do, but I think some people
don't put out enough. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. You
know, Ben, throughout your life, have there been any books, films, or

(20:33):
documentaries that have really inspired you professionally speaking that
you could recommend to our listeners? Well, I don't know. I mean,
I've watched a million movies and TV shows about music and
but and I've and I read a lot. By the way, I've read probably every
music business book because I love learning. And and, like,
Don Passman really needs another plug, but, you know, I I in a sense

(20:56):
and he's a friend of mine. But since he wrote that original, everything you need
to know about the music business, you know, that's still I still think that's
probably the best overall book. I mean, I have a book myself, and if we
could mention it to him. But but but his is very you know, it's
comprehensive, but it digestible. Because, I mean, when I first started in the business, there
was the music There's an Oscar book. Business and music. I was like trying to

(21:17):
read the Bible or something. It was too complicated. Scientific. Yeah. It was
like a textbook or something. So, I still like the past one book, but there's
so many different books out there. And and, like, mine's
Give us the title. What's the title? Music Business and 10 Easy Lessons. And
mine's more you know, it's more like a handbook pamphlet. It's not
very you could, you know, it's very you could sit down in an hour or

(21:39):
two and, you know, probably get through it, you know, if you really were a
speed reader. But it but it it is really geared towards entry level things,
you know, all these things that kept coming up to me over and over again.
So that's why that's why I came up with the 10 that I thought were
the most common. But anyway, that I'll and I use my book because I I
teach classes in schools, and I've used my book as a textbook. I've used Passman's

(21:59):
book as a textbook. I do like the Brabeck book Oh. Publishing.
Yeah. Because they're the you know, it's hard to find a good publishing book. And
they're I like theirs too because, again, they try to make it
sort of easier to understand it. And both Pausman and Brabec,
they will constantly do new editions and try to update it with,
it's harder for me because I'm just doing this solo, but, you know,

(22:22):
but but anyway, they they're ever doing new additions with new
whatever's hot and cutting ends, they try to cover it. So but I think you
need to look you always wanna I found, and I don't know if that question
will come up, but, like, a lot of things don't change that much, but there
are sometimes just, like, AI or streaming or whatever comes along
now and then makes it it does change the business a little bit. So Yeah.

(22:43):
You need to understand it. Definitely. Ben, what advice do you
have for those that are committed to building a career as a
songwriter, producer, or artist? What would you tell them?
I would say work hard to try to
develop sort of a signature sound if you can. I
mean, that maybe you left up to other people to decide, but I think it's

(23:05):
important to have your own thing. You know, you don't wanna just copy
somebody. I think you wanna be commercial, if that's what your thing is. I mean,
I would hope everybody wants to make money. I think you still have to have
a commercial aspect to what you do. I mean, you can be super niche or
or do just something just because you love it. But, I mean, if you're trying
to make a living and support your family, I think you have to have something

(23:25):
that can connect with a lot of people that will because you really want
people to become your fans, whether you're a writer, producer, or an artist
of what of your work, you know, and can can continue to wanna support you
and hopefully help you monetize your content. But that
goes back again to, you know, creating, Try to create amazing
music amazing music and try to put out a lot of content.

(23:47):
And also make sure that you, register with, you know, like,
the the sound exchange, with BMI ASCAP, with the music
licensing collect. So when you are making money, you can actually
collect it, and a lot of people kind of forget that aspect of it. Yeah.
Really quickly, Ben, to add to that question that I just asked through
for somebody that doesn't have access to a Ben Mclane currently as a

(24:09):
as an attorney, What things, if you could tell him in a speed round, what
to avoid besides, obviously, don't sign anything without a music attorney?
Well, I mean, I think it depends what kind of deal you're are you a
producer? Are you a songwriter? Are you an artist? But don't you know,
it when when you see words like exclusivity or
or assignment of rights, assignment of copyrights, those are red

(24:31):
flags. And that they're not necessarily a bad thing because it might make sense or
people are paying you properly or they that just needs to be part of the
deal for it to be worthwhile to the other side. But but and then
long term, I don't you know, if you see things that are five albums, seven
albums, ten years, that's long. Yeah. You know? And that's that's sometimes a
career for somebody. So do you really wanna have to commit yourself

(24:52):
to that? And by the way, normally, it's the other side has the options
to stretch it out that long. They could drop you at any time. It's
it usually doesn't work in reverse. You know? So and and when you're
exclusive to somebody, people don't seem to understand that. It means you can't
write songs for other people. You can't make records for other people. You can't even
do features for other people, appear on other other people's records.

(25:14):
So just just be careful about the language. You gotta read it carefully. If you
can't understand it, just, you know, hire a lawyer. It's worth it. You
know? Just Yeah. It's really worth it. Because I spent half my career getting people
out of bad deals because they just they just didn't We know.
We know first hand. You know, they just wanted to cut corners, and they thought
they had it under control or understood it. So but sometimes it's just that one

(25:35):
word can make that difference in the contract. You know another thing that I found
that's crazy, and this might sound crazy, you probably wouldn't agree with it, but I
I've actually taken not anything that I'm signing or anything, but I've taken
contract language and run it through AI and tell me what the things are about.
That's another thing with the access to AI that we have. Even if you're not
you know, if you don't have an attorney, maybe run it through the AI just

(25:55):
to see what are the, you know, things to avoid. I don't know if that's
something. No. No. I mean, that's something if if that technology is available to you,
you might as well utilize it. It. And but yeah. But the the but even
AI or Google or whatever you're gonna use, it may miss something too. So
No. I I agree. But if it's an important enough agreement, yeah, we run it
through AI, get an idea, get one just to understand them better. I want clients

(26:16):
to understand. Right. They really should. It's their deal. I I've always
been the type to explain it, copy people on everything so they understand it.
But but before you sign on that dotted line, yeah, you really might wanna have
somebody study it that's really gonna pay attention to every
word and not just give you, like, a, you know Right. Which because
I I don't know. AI could get to the point where it is that precise,

(26:38):
but maybe it's just an overview and it doesn't there's gaps. You know? Right. And
and hiring a music attorney, not a personal injury attorney. I mean, somebody that
specializes in music. Right. It's just like me. I don't I don't do criminal law
Right. Bankruptcy law. I I don't know anything about it. I'm a lawyer, but I
don't, so I have to refer. Right. So same but I can't say every
lawyer is like that. Some lawyers will take anything. Right. But I I, you

(27:01):
know, I can tell you from experience you know, earlier in my career, I might
have been more like that. But you get you just get over your head sometimes,
and you don't wanna screw something up for somebody and ruin their life. So it's
better to refer it out. Go with an expert. There's, you know, music law
experts, film and TV experts, bank rep they're out there. Right? Just
go with an expert. Ben, where can people best reach you? Is

(27:22):
it through your website or through socials? Well, I have a website Yeah. Which
is benmcclain.com. Okay. And I'm in North Hollywood,
California. But and all my social links are
I mean, I do have, you know, Facebook, Instagram,
Twitter. They're all there. All the main ones. On the website. Yeah. And e
emails. All it's all there. So Beautiful. But but my everything's

(27:44):
sort of on the website even though I probably need to update my website, but
at least it it works. It's all there. It works. Yeah. Wonderful. Ben,
we can't thank you enough for coming by and doing this. This is real honor
to have you again. Yeah. It's been wonderful. You are a return guest,
and we're very, very grateful to have you. Thank you. Well, thank you. Great. And
your show is amazing. Thank you. Really appreciate it.

(28:06):
Such a good conversation. You know, I I love talking to Ben and, you know,
he's been a friend of ours for so long. You know, he he brought up
something that I thought was so important in this conversation,
Eric, that I think is an element that's that essence of of
real value for our listeners, which is the whole thing of don't
cut corners. Right. You know, do things

(28:27):
properly in the legal sense, ladies and gentlemen, because
those kinds of things you must live by. What I'm saying is
that when you sign a contract, when you sign an agreement, you
must live with the consequences. If you don't
believe me, ask Bruce Springsteen, ask Elton John, ask Billy Joel.
These are people who are, you know, legendary cases where they

(28:50):
have signed agreements that they didn't quite know about or didn't quite and they had
to live with the consequences of them, and you don't wanna do that. So do
things right. Don't cut corners legally. Get legal representation.
We have. He's our, attorney. He's actually our you
know, we didn't reveal this in the interview, but I it's just it just dawned
on me as you were talking now, Rich, that he's my attorney. He's been my

(29:11):
attorney for my music stuff, and he's been our attorney with, Mubu
TV and, you know, unraveling some things that we've had to take care of in
the past so we can speak from experience that you definitely need to
do you know, it's better to get an attorney upfront to take care of it
before you have a mess later and you're trying to untangle and unravel that mess.
Exactly. And that's one of the things that he talked about, that half his time

(29:33):
was spent on undoing mistakes from previous, you know
deals and And be and he said because it was people cutting corners. Right. One
of the other areas that I thought was absolutely crucial was, you know, again,
getting back to why it's so important, what to avoid if you don't have a
music attorney. When you see words like exclusivity or assignment of
rights, assignment of copyrights, those are absolute red

(29:54):
flags. And and that they're not necessarily a bad thing, but then
long term, if you see things that are five albums, seven albums,
ten, ten years, that's long. So, yeah, you you know,
and that's some sometimes a career for somebody. So it it's
something that you have to be really careful about what you're getting into. And I
guess the the rule of thumb is do not sign anything until you put it

(30:16):
in front of a music attorney, not somebody that does personal injury, not somebody that
does, you know, workplace attorney. You want somebody that specializes in
the music business. Absolutely. I'm so glad you brought that up because
that is a crucial distinction.
Jay Cooper, the famous Jay Cooper at the attorney taught me that. He said, when
you become a lawyer, do you know that it takes between five and seven

(30:38):
years to become a music attorney? Right. Not an entertainment
attorney, someone who's brilliant at films and television and other element, but
music. And that's what you always want to be represented by a
music attorney. It can make the difference between success
and failure. Hey, Insiders. Thanks so much for tuning into this
episode. We really appreciate it. To get show notes, links, and

(31:00):
everything that was mentioned during this interview, head on over to our official website
at
MUBUTV.com/podcast/shownotes.
If you're enjoying the content and what we're doing here on the show, please subscribe
to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever
you listen to podcasts from. And don't forget to rate and review our show at
iTunes. Five star reviews are always welcome and help to ensure

(31:23):
that our podcast stands out on the top rated and new and noteworthy
charts on iTunes and our space. You can also find us at social
media at Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and Twitter
x, all ending with the handle MUBUTV, which is spelled m u
b u TV. Don't forget to catch our flagship show, the
MUBUTV music business insider video series, airing

(31:45):
every week on YouTube at
youtube.com/mubutv. This show
was produced and created by Ritch Esra and Eric Knight. Theme music
by Disciples of Babylon, and be sure to tune in next week for another
episode of the MUBUTV Music Business Insider Podcast.

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