Unlocking the Next Music REVOLUTION: Hook, AI & the New Era of Artist Monetization With Karan Bhatnagar from Hook Music
🎶 Dive into the future of music with the MUBUTV Music Business Insider Podcast! 🎤 Karan Bhatnagar, digital strategy expert and the visionary behind Hook music app, reveals how AI-driven music remixing, ethical licensing, and creator-first features are reshaping artist opportunities in a social media-first world. Get actionable advice on global artist visibility, revenue streams, and how to thrive in today’s new music industry. Don’t miss how streaming 2.0 will empower emerging talent worldwide!
Our mission here at MUBUTV is to help independent artists and music business professionals of the future to educate, empower and engage their music career.
🎙️ Music Business Insider Podcast: https://www.mubutv.com/podcast
The Music Business Insider Podcast is a deep dive for listeners like you who want to educate, empower & engage their music career. We take you inside behind the scenes through a series of in-depth conversations with today’s leading experts in the Music Industry including A&R, Music Supervision, Artist Management, Marketing, Publicity, Touring, and much much more. You can find it by searching “Music Business Insider Podcast” on any podcast app or platform [ie: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, etc.].
Â
đź“’ Show Notes and Resources đź“’
https://www.mubutv.com/karan-bhatnagar-hook
Â
⚡️What you'll learn in this episode⚡️
👉 How Hook makes remixing and revenue accessible for all artists
👉 The challenges and wins behind securing music licenses for emerging tech
👉 How creators can now be part of the next big music wave
👉 and so much more...
Â
Here are the ways to work with us here at MUBUTV:
⚡️Insiders! Secure Your Spot! Get expert music career coaching with Ritch & Eric. Book your 15-min discovery call now: Grab a spot! 👉 https://book.mubutv.com
⚡Insiders! Get Your FREE Music Supervisor Guide! Unlock pro tips and learn how to pitch Music Supervisors the right way. Don’t miss out! Download link below:
👉 https://link.mubutv.com/MSFreeGuide
RECOMMENDED BOOKS:
đź“’ All You Need To Know About the Music Business 11th Edition - https://amzn.to/3sdgrja
🎧  Get Audible Free - Your favorite titles anywhere you go. Enjoy a free trial on us!
https://amzn.to/3RB2nu4
Â
Podcast Credits
Produced by: Ritch Esra & Eric Knight
Editor: Eric Knight
Shownotes & Transcriptions: Jermaine Shepherd
Â
DISCLOSURE: Some product links are affiliate links which means if you buy something we'll receive a small commission.
Copyright © 2025 MUBUTV™ Media. All Rights Reserved
This podcast features Karan Bhatnagar, a digital strategy expert from Hook, joins the MUBUTV Music Business Insider Podcast to share the latest on ethically built AI and its impact on the music industry. Karan shares how Hook is empowering artists and creators, while expanding revenue through social-media driven music consumption and sync licensing music. Learn about the future of streaming and music licenses in this episode!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
On today's podcast, we sit down with Karan Bhatnagar, digital
strategy expert and a driving force behind Hook, the
revolutionary music platform shaking up the industry. Karan
gives us an insider look at how Hook is using ethically built
AI to empower artists, creators and fans.
From remixing hit songs to expanding artist revenue streams in
(00:22):
this new age of social media driven music consumption, we explore
the future of streaming, the challenges of securing music licenses with
major labels and the game changing opportunity opportunities for emerging
artists to gain global visibility. Karan Bhatnagar also shares real
success stories and practical advice for anyone looking to break into
the music business. Insiders this conversation redefines
(00:43):
how music will be created, shared and monetized.
You won't want to miss it. Insiders, are you ready?
Welcome to MUBUTV's Music Business Insider Podcast
where our mission is to educate, empower and engage artists
and music business professionals who are dedicated to having a successful career
(01:04):
in the new music industry. Here are your hosts, Ritch Esra
and Eric Knight. Welcome back insiders, to another episode of the
MUBUTV Music Business Insider podcast where our mission
is to educate, empower and engage your music career. On
today's episode, we sit down with Karan Bhatnagar, a digital
strategist and the forward thinking force behind Hook. If you've ever
(01:26):
wondered how social media, AI and remix culture are
reshaping the music landscape, this is the conversation you can't afford to
miss. We break down how Hook is pioneering pioneering streaming 2.0,
opening up new revenue streams and giving artists and rights
holders unprecedented control over their music in the social age.
Karan shares insider stories about how major labels and independent
(01:48):
artists alike are navigating the challenges of licensing,
monetization and creative freedom. From emerging artists going
viral to the ethics of AI powered remixes, you'll hear how
today's music industry is changing in real time and what it means for
your career. Plus, Karan Bhatnagar offers actionable advice for
artists and music professionals on building a global fan base,
(02:10):
mastering content strategy and why having a plan is more
important than ever. You won't want to miss this insightful, inspiring
and future driven conversation, but first, a
word from our sponsor. Hey insiders. Are you an aspiring
musician, artist, band or future music business professional looking
to take your career to the next level? Well, look no further. At
(02:31):
MUBUTV we offer personalized career counseling and coaching during
designed specifically for folks like you. Imagine having both of us by your
side, guiding you through every step of your music journey. Our sessions are
tailored to meet your unique needs, focusing on critical aspects of your
music career, such as refining your songs, defining your artist story,
identifying your target audience, and enhancing your social media
(02:54):
presence, just to name a few. Whether you're just starting out or looking to
elevate your existing career, we've got you covered. Our comprehensive approach
ensures you you get insights on everything from live
shows to branding and marketing strategies. We understand
that every artist is unique. That's why our coaching is
personalized just for you. And here's the best part. We offer
(03:15):
flexible coaching packages that fit any budget. Choose from individual
sessions ranging from 30 to 90 minutes or save with our discounted four
session packages. Experience custom sessions designed to enhance your
music career with opportunities for greater savings. When you choose bundled
sessions, investing in your musical journey has never been more
accessible. Imagine the clarity and direction you'll gain
(03:37):
after just one session, the feedback on your songs, the
strategies to grow your audience, and the confidence to perform live. All
tailored just for you. So why wait? Don't let uncertainty
hold you back. Join us for your free 15 minute discovery
call at book.mubutv.com for a
transformative coaching experience that will elevate your music career.
(03:58):
That's book MUBUTV.
Hi, this is Jeremy Yohai, senior vice president of A&R at Concord Music
Publishing, and you're listening to the MUBUTV Music Business
Insider Podcast. Welcome back insiders. Today's featured guest is
Karan Bhatnagar, a digital strategist and the forward thinking force
behind Hook. This was a very, very, very important
(04:21):
conversation and one that I think our listeners need to understand. You know, we've
had guests before. Who was the woman that we had a couple
years ago who, who did the. The tracks being erased.
Yes. What's important about it and where the connection between her
and Karan Bhatnagar comes in is that we are finding new ways to
monetize music legally and getting artists paid.
(04:43):
And that's the important part. I mean, you know, when you look at like the
viral growth for emerging artists remixing, it can often skyrocket today
for smaller artists, you know, linking their music to well known songs. For artists
such as, you know, how Julia Klein, I think he mentioned, you know, the track
Echo gained traction. What's important about this is that, you know, I think he
also spoke about the fact that so much of the music on
(05:04):
social media platforms isn't licensed, isn't licensed up, it's remixed,
it's, you know, and nobody's making any money from it. Although it's being
used to promote things. He's actually offering you a chance to, to get
paid. And most importantly to give the data of who's listening, which is
most important. Yeah. One of the other things that I thought was the remix
accessibility. This is something that was close to me because I'm thinking about. I've
(05:26):
actually done a couple of remixes for my single, but I want to put this
out into the world and see what people can bring back as far as remixes.
My track. And Hook lets non musicians, which are like
dancers, lifestyle creators etc, remix music
easily removing the barriers for broader creative participation that
was once limited to those with production skills. So I think that that's a really
(05:47):
unique angle that Karan Bhatnagar has with Hook. Yeah,
absolutely. I mean this used to be something that was controlled by the label.
They would hire a remixer, pay them a certain amount of money and get, you
know, six mixes and put out a 12 inch single if you were lucky in
the old days. Right now, you know, we're seeing a
multitude of uses for, for music, but mostly
(06:08):
it's, it's not necessarily the, the usage as much as
it is the benefit to artists and songwriters. It's another music discovery
platform. Platform, Absolutely. And with that, insiders sit
back, relax and enjoy our featured conversation from Muse
Expo 2025 with Karan Bhatnagar Buttnagar. Karan
Bhatnagar, welcome. Nice to be here. Nice to meet you guys. Nice to meet you
(06:31):
and welcome to the show. You know, with social media's influence on
music growing so rapidly in these days, how do
you envision Hook's role in reshaping the relationship between
artists, fans and the broader music ecosystem? Well, it's
interesting, I think, you know, AI has changed a lot, especially
over the last year and there's been a lot of conversation on what's ethical and
(06:52):
what's not, you know, what can harm artists and what can help artists. I think
the stance that we've taken is we want to approach this in an ethical way.
If AI is going to be here and it's, you know, it's going to be
here, there's no need to, you know, fear monger over it. There's no need to
be scared about what's to come. It's going to be a part of our lives.
How for this specific industry can we make it by the artists, by the
rights holders and how can we open up new marketing and revenue streams for them?
(07:15):
So for us as a company, what we've done is we've taken a very rules
based approach when it comes to AI and we've said, okay, how can we
harness AI as a tool to help artists grow in this new age? So instead
of, you know, going to a platform and saying, you know, write me
a three minute song by that sounds like this and
talks about this and it spits out this perfect three minute track.
(07:36):
We're saying, why don't we take something that exists, why don't we allow fans
and creators and artists to remix it in a different way, mash it up in
a different way. It's behaviors that we're already seeing on social Media today.
Nearly 50% of the music on TikTok is modified. It's
sped up, it's slowed down, it's mashed up. But it's happening without rights
holder approval, it's happening without artist visibility. But what it's doing is it's
(07:59):
driving consumption, it's driving streaming. You're seeing, you know, an artist like
Tyla on TikTok who has, you know, five different remixed
versions of water on TikTok going absolutely nuts. And you're seeing
it impact consumption. So it's about how do you harness that, how do you create
control around it? And that's what we're doing at Hook is we want to create
an ecosystem where people, fans, artists, creators can
(08:20):
do this, share it to their social media platforms so they have a better chance
at marketability while getting that visibility and control that they need. Karan
Bhatnagar, thank you so much for, for joining us on the show. You literally just
took the words right out of our mouth and you've said that nearly 50%
of songs on social media are remixed in some way. Crazy
stat, right? Yeah. And yet the current music economy doesn't fully support
(08:42):
this form of social streaming. How does Hook ensure that
both emerging and established artists are fairly compensated for their creative
contributions in this space? So we have a, you know, we people
talk about streaming 2.0 today, right? And there's been a lot of conversations about what
streaming 2.0 looks like. Well, in our estimation, streaming
2.0 is taking the consumption and revenue
(09:04):
model from streaming, which, you know, is Spotify the best use case?
Maybe, maybe not. But what they have done is they've compensated rights holders. Right.
Social media is not doing that today. TikTok is giving, you know, I
don't know how much they make, let's call it 2, $3 billion a year. They're
giving 1% of that back to the music industry. That's nothing. And when you
look at social media in aggregate, if you added up all of the
(09:26):
minutes on social media today, they are more than people
stream on dsps. It's, it's, it's
incredible. But the economics don't match so, you know, what we're trying to do is
we're trying to change the conversation. We're trying to say, what is streaming 2.0? Well,
why don't we take the streaming model and apply it to social? Why don't we
say, you know, not nearly as much as Spotify, but why don't we take a
(09:48):
fair rev share and for anything that's consumed, shared,
developed on Hook, we're giving an, you know, equal fair
share back to the rights holder pool and we as a company are keeping a
fair share ourselves. So it's taking, you know, the inspirations of what's working
on social media, taking the economics of streaming and kind of blending those
two together. Amazing. Can you share with us or walk us through
(10:09):
the process of securing, you know, the music licenses with major and
independent labels and how these collaborations will change the way music is
shared and monetized on Hook? It's tough. Yeah, yeah,
it's, it's, it's. I would think it would be easy. No, it's not. It's not.
And it's not going to be easy. I mean, you know, the majors especially
are. Listen, if you, if you look at these contracts, they're archaic contracts,
(10:31):
right? The, the legal standards by which this industry has been
propped up has, is, is, is very old and is very
by the book. And it's that for a reason there needs to be control
around art, right? And for us,
you know, we're not trying to come in and modify that at a great
scale. We're not trying to do what a lot of these other generative AI companies
(10:53):
are doing, which are all being sued now, by the way, because they haven't built
in the right way. We're trying to take an approach that is familiar to
them. So, you know, when we talk to the major labels and independents and
distributors, by the way, a lot of the conversation is, listen, this,
it's about user behavior, this is action that's happening today, right?
Creators and fans are remixing music and you're not getting paid anything
(11:16):
from it. So how can we create an ecosystem that
allows this to happen while providing you the data and you now do
get revenue from it. And that's been really, it's been a warming
conversation. You know, our CEO often talks about,
you know, back when streaming started, it was pulling teeth,
right? It was pulling teeth to get these deals done because they're like, this is
(11:38):
a new frontier. Well, with social today, you
know, there's a reason UMG takes all of their music off of TikTok. There's a
reason why you're seeing, Believe sue, you're seeing all of these things come out
in the process press, and it's because there isn't some sort of fair compensation
model. So, you know, going back to your question, it was, it's, you know,
that's been. Our approach in these, in these conversations is, you know, we can show
(12:00):
you the platform, we can show you, you know, how amazing and fun it is.
But at the end of the day, here's how it benefits you. And what we're
trying to do is unlock a new segment of the music revenue economy. And
that's been, I think, the most warming piece of the conversation when it comes
to majors and distributors. But they're both, they're big companies and
it's going to take time and it's going to take, you know, different mindset.
(12:21):
So it's, it's, it's just about plugging away. But if we're coming to it with
the right mindset, with an ethical approach, I think it's, it's better than what's happening
today. Yeah, precisely. I mean, I remember when, you know, just the whole concept
of remixes. Yeah. Back in the day is, you know, back in the day, you'd
have to get. Hire the person, get them the tracks.
You know, you'd pay them a fee and they would give you X amount of
(12:41):
mixes for that fee. 6, 8, 9. Actual
physical, different mixes. You'd have to. The artist would have to approve it all.
You know, a 12 inch was pressed, you know, or a CD
and then it was put out. So it's, you know, and to your point, which
is interesting about all of this being done without monetization, is that, you know, one
of the comebacks I've heard when I would mention that is. But
(13:04):
we're contributing to the artist's visibility out in the
marketplace. Sure. You know, we're giving, we're, we're exposing
Selena Gomez to another segment that wouldn't be there.
Yeah. So, you know, we're contributing in a way. So it's, it's, it's a
kind of consciousness that you face. Absolutely. And by the way, that's a true statement.
You know, it's, it's absolutely correct. But there's no reason why it can't be
(13:26):
both. Right. There, there's an, there's, there's an ecosystem where
people can get compensated in the right way, they can be controlled in the right
way. Because if you also think about artists. Right. You know, let's take Selena Gomez.
Does she Want her music slowed down or sped up or turned into
some pop punk record. Maybe not right, but fans are
doing it today. If we can create an ecosystem at Hook, where on
(13:48):
a filter by filter and our sound filters in the app are genre
filters. So if you think about like when Instagram started, they released photo
filters, right? So you can change your image with, you know, sepia
and all these different ones. Those are kind of what our sound filters are like,
is you can take a Selena record and you can make it sound pop punk
or afrobeat or drum and bass, but if Selena or her label doesn't
(14:08):
want that to be the case, then we can turn that filter off, right? So
it's a granular control that like now as an artist, you feel
a lot more comfortable with people remixing your audios. And now if something
does go viral, you still have that marketability that you were talking about and that
global scale. But if something takes off, you now have the revenue opportunity too, which
is. Which is fantastic opportunity. You know, Karan Bhatnagar, ethically
(14:31):
built AI tools are a key part of Hook's strategy. How do you
ensure that these tools empower creators and enhance their music
experiences without infringing on their creative controller rights? You kind of
touched a little bit. On that, but yeah, a bit. I mean, I think the
model that we've, we've taken is one of capcut.
If you're familiar with what Cap Cut has done in the video editing space,
(14:53):
it's, you know, it's essentially made it easier. It's by
no means perfect, but it's made it easier for people to kind of, you
know, be a professional ish looking video editor. And you don't have to open up
Adobe anymore. You don't have to open up Imovie. You can do things. So, you
know, what we're likening ourselves to is the Cap Cut for music, Cap Cut for
music editing. And from a creator perspective, what we've seen and some of the great
(15:15):
behaviors that we've seen in the app today is creators that are
dancers or lifestyle creators or people that typically
are not, you know, music leaning. You know, they don't have, they know how to
use music tools. They now have the ability to remix in a way that they
could never do before. Because the way it's done today is you open up
GarageBand or you open up Ableton or Pro Tools and you know,
(15:37):
you speed it up, you slow it down, you change the genre, you do all
these things to it, you add your video on top of it and then you
share it to social media. That's a difficult
process. It's a two to four day process for people that even understand those
technologies through hook, you can now do it with five minutes.
And, you know, speaking about the ethical piece of it, it's exactly what I was
mentioning about the controls. You know, it's like we want to be able to, from
(15:59):
a rights holder perspective, give as much control and visibility
to them as possible. And that can be on a song by song, catalog by
catalog, you know, level to the point where, you know, we're talking
with Sony Music and they say, well, I don't want any of my songs mashed
up with Universal, we can turn off that. If they're saying, I don't want my
songs shared to TikTok, which, you know, we frankly believe that's where the consumption is
(16:20):
happening. So we would push for it. Right. But, you know, if Universal's another
argument with TikTok and they're saying, no, we don't want to share there, we can
turn that off so we can sandbox everything as well. So it's, you know,
it's a mix of providing the right tools and making sure
that the artists and the rights holders feel comfortable about it. And I think the
key with that is not growing too quickly and making sure that everything
(16:42):
that we're building falls within our ethical standards as a company.
Hey, insiders, we hope that you've been enjoying our featured conversation.
Stay tuned because we've got so much value coming your way. But before we
dive back in, a word from our sponsor. Hey, Eric, as an artist,
what do you find are the most challenging aspects to a music
career, especially when you're starting out? Well, I think one of the first things is
(17:04):
just trying to get the direction of who you are as an artist, where you
want to go, where you want to be. And, you know, we've talked about it
on the show a lot. Who is. Is your target audience, who you are, who,
what do you stand for? What do you believe in? What do you think would
resonate with an audience? And so those are some of the things that I would
feel being a new artist. Obviously what I know now is different because I know
these things, but for people that are out there, like our audience, that don't have
(17:28):
necessarily any direction to go, would be the first things that I would start off
with. And having the songs incorporate those
elements that you're speaking of into it, that's so important today.
Yeah. And I think that's one of the reasons why we started MUBUTV and why
we started this new consulting service that, that we're offering to all of our
insiders out there, because that is another one of the big things. I mean, that
(17:48):
is the big thing is like having the great songs. That's what it really starts
off. Our friend Don Grierson always said it always starts with a great song.
So that's probably. Besides putting together what your audience and what
your target audience is, is the single most important thing. Where are your songs
at currently today? Are you collaborating with people? Are you trying
to go out to networking events where you can connect with other songwriters and stuff
(18:10):
like that? So, yeah. And what are your strengths exactly? You know,
are you a strong lyric writer? Are you a strong melody writer? Are
you a strong musician, A player? Right. You know, and it's really important
to get really strong clarity on those issues before
proceeding. I totally agree, Ritch. And you know, with our consulting services,
we offer a myriad of different packages that we've made it super affordable
(18:33):
for everybody. So, you know, if you guys are interested out there and connecting with
us on a coaching call, you can visit
book.moobutv.com and start off with a free
15 minute discovery call. Well, yeah, absolutely. That. We start with an
initial 15 minute call where we can get a sense of who you are. What
are the issues that you specifically have and want to work on.
(18:54):
Exactly. And we can go from there. Absolutely. Yeah. And we tailor everything
to your needs. It's not like a cookie cutter thing. We kind of really want
to get to know who you are as an artist, where you at today, what's
the snapshot of you as an artist today, and then start trying to
craft something that's tailor made for you. So again, if you're interested,
Visit us at book.mubutv.com for your 15 minute
(19:15):
discovery call. You've talked about some of the, you know, great
people that you've worked with, you know, producers, creators.
Can you talk about some of the success stories that Hook has had so far
in terms of the creative space? Yeah, I mean, one particular
one that I'm really passionate. Well, I'll. I'll say two, actually. One, but the first
one is, is this artist named Julia Klein who, who you
(19:37):
may or may not have heard of, but she's a relatively small emerging artist.
And I say this to say, you know, it's not the biggest artist name, but
it shows you the behavior and the opportunity for emerging artists on our platform.
Her song is this dance record called Echo, which is, you know, had a
bit of a moment on TikTok in Europe and kind of fell off there. But
it's a familiar sound. The thing that we've seen in
(19:59):
terms of behavior on the app is people love remixing it. And when you take
a Julia Cline record and you mix it with a Teddy Swim song or with
a Justin Bieber song or, you know, with, with another artist song on our
platform, Charlie xcx, it instantly drives more
visibility on her because she's tied to an artist of more
notoriety. And if you look at Echo on our app, it's one of the most
(20:20):
consumed tracks on a platform. So now you have thousands of thousands of people that
may not have heard of Julia Klein and may not have heard Echo and there's
tremendous visibility around it now. So, you know, it's not the
biggest artist name, but I'm really passionate about this approach. It's giving emerging
artists a completely new way. Yeah. To kind of interact with their
audiences and potentially have something that puts them, you know, to
(20:42):
the next level in their trajectory. That's amazing. Yeah. Because it's showing it in a
microcosm of what can be. Exactly. What could become. Exactly.
And the other, you know, stuff that we're working on is, you know, as people
are blending and mixing genres, it opens up your scale from a
global perspective. Right. So you're seeing people now turn songs into
Afrobeat records, K Pop records records, Indian records. And you're now
(21:03):
reaching a visibility with our creator base on platform that also has
a global reach that allows us to kind of take
artists and songs and expand them into different audiences globally
too. So that's really exciting for us. Karin, as social media and
streaming platforms continue to evolve, how do you see the
balance between maintaining a platform's artistic integrity and
(21:25):
meeting the growing demand for user generated content and engagement management?
It's. Yeah, it's tough. It's a very difficult push and pull.
I think as platforms develop, and I'm not
just talking about Hook, but as other platforms develop, there's a very
important key thing that they need to look at and
that comes down to. And by the way, you know, coming from artist management, I
(21:47):
always have this artist first integrity approach. Right. But as you're building a
business, that's what needs to be core. And it can be someone building
a superfan subscription like Spotify apparently is trying to do. It can, can be
a new business that's trying to engage something in the live event space. It can
be something like Hook that enables remixing. But as you have
a key understanding of UGC user bases Artists,
(22:10):
you need to make sure that you're doing everything by the book.
And it doesn't necessarily need to be by the legal handbook, but it needs to
be by the book of how this industry has been developed. Because we've seen
situations of companies that have, you know, grown in
immense scale and have had, you know, great storylines, but fizzle
up. Right, and they fizzle up because, you know, at some point,
(22:32):
you know, either a platform kind of consumes them or what they built
was not scalable enough for the industry that we work in. So I think for
us as a company, as we, you know, bring more creators into the platform
and focus on more users, our goal is to make sure
that our tools that we're creating are super easy. And the data
tracking around all of that is something that's really, really, really important. We're,
(22:54):
you know, when something is created on Hook and shared to TikTok or Instagram or
another platform, we create a monthly data report and we send
that to the label and rights holder so they can see in real time or
real enough time what's being consumed, how it's being shared.
And also given, you know, the. The plethora of our filters that we have in
the app today, it shows them how people are consuming with music. So I
(23:16):
think it's just about transparency and visibility. As you continue to grow,
given your. Background in Digital strategy with 360
management, how do you approach designing campaigns for Hook's
platform that drive revenue and virality? I think revenue
is definitely the second piece. I think for us, it's about creating a
moment for the artist. You know, during my time at 360, you know, I
(23:39):
worked on, you know, a wide variety of artists, notably Calvin Harris. And
with someone as large as Calvin, it's very difficult, difficult to decipher
fan base. You know, you want to be able to understand what his fans want
while being able to market and target the larger market.
And, you know, it was also interesting when I, you know, was at 360
or 2020 is really the year when TikTok started really pushing artists in a
(24:02):
completely different way. So you take those learnings and you take those behaviors
and you understand, okay, how are we driving campaign
strategy and how is that impact impacting the music? And it involves
the artist. You know, it has to have the artists that are bought in.
A lot of the campaigns that we're developing for Hook today are to
drive virality on social, notably Instagram and TikTok. But
(24:25):
the artist needs to be leaned in. The artist needs to Be excited about what
we're building. They need to be part of the campaigns, they need to be part
of the storyline, because when that takes place, then their fan bases are
activated. You know, we could even easily do something in the app today. And, you
know, we can have something that lives as a sandbox and, you know, we can
not have the artists involved, but we really want the fan bases involved because that's
(24:45):
what. That's what's going to take them to the next level. And if you think
about it, if you're a fan of, you know, a Tyler, the creator, or that
one of these, like, enigmatic artists, you want to be able to
be part of that journey when they're providing something that's completely new, like
remixing, you know, there hasn't been, to my knowledge, remixing at scale
with the controllability and ease that there is today with Hook. And if
(25:06):
that's the case, I know if I was a fan of artists, I would definitely
want that artist involved and would want to know how I could be part of
that journey. Precisely throughout your life, what books or
films or documentaries have you found to be particularly inspirational
to you, professionally speaking, that you could recommend to our listeners?
Well, you know, it's interesting. I'm a huge, huge basketball
(25:28):
fan, so taking it out of music for a little bit, you know,
particularly a Kobe Bryant fan. So, you know, a lot of
how I, and I and I come from the tech world, I, you know, I
grew up in the Bay Area and San Francisco Bay area, and I saw, you
know, Facebook and YouTube and all these companies grow as I was growing up, which
is mad if you think about it. But, you know, what I. What I really
(25:49):
wanted to understand was how can I motivate myself and how can I
be different? Because what I didn't want to do was work in tech. I wanted
to work in entertainment and music, but I didn't know how. And Kobe was a
great inspiration to me because, you know, there was never a pathway,
but you get to find the motivation and the hunger and the drive
to kind of develop that. And for someone that had zero experience in the
(26:11):
music industry, you know, I. I took that approach and I started
emailing cold emailing like 50 people a day for like six months.
Wow, you to come down to LA every other week. Used to try and get
my name out into this industry, try and network, try and do everything that I
possibly can. So in terms of, like, a motivating factor, for me, it
was him. But, you know, for people that are, you know, coming
(26:33):
into this industry. A great, great, great knowledge base of a
book is. Is Don Passman's book. Yeah.
And, you know, Don was at south by Southwest when I was just there.
And you can see. See the glimmer in these people's eyes when they see him.
It's a really, really great handbook. It's like the
bible of the music. Yeah, it is. And it's easy to understand.
(26:55):
Exactly. That's his gift. Exactly. It's easy to understand. And. And the
beauty is he comes out with a new version every year. So there's always. I'm.
I haven't read it. Exactly. I'm sure there's something about, you know, AI
and, you know, streaming deals and things of that nature in today's edition, but for
someone that. That, you know, lived in the Bay Area, was in the tech environment,
and had no idea about music, reading his book
(27:17):
in combination with doing all of the work I was doing was really, really helpful.
Did you get a chance to meet him down at Southwest? Southwest? I did. Again.
It was such a madhouse. We've had him on the show a couple times. On
the show twice. I've known him for many, many years, and we've had him on.
I have the first edition of that. It's. It's
small. Yeah, it's a very small one. I. I remember when I. When I got
it, I went down to his office and he signed it for me and everything.
(27:40):
And it wasn't the. What. What he has always talked about with that
book is the reason it's been so successful is because it
got used and became used as the textbook
to teach. He said that's the reason that the demand has
always been there for him to do these constant new editions. And like, when we
did the 10th edition interview with him, he said it took him four years.
(28:03):
Really? Yeah. To do the 10th edition. It was four years
because he said so much had changed. And then the 11th, the 11th edition took
like three. Three takes, basically three years for him to update it, but he took
an extra year on that one because it happened to be a lot of. So
a lot of stuff. It's such a mad process because if you think about in
him writing those four years, there's things that are happening. Happening in
real time. Yeah, he has to incorporate. You incorporate. And he.
(28:26):
He. He does definitely incorporate that stuff into. He's amazing.
One of our team members is. Is like a super fan, if you call that.
So Don. Yeah. Yeah. So he went to the. He went to the panel and
he had Don sign The book. And he came back and he's like, oh, my
God. I got, you know, the Bible's been signed. The Bible's
been signed. Yes, absolutely. He was here last
(28:47):
year. Was he? Don came? Yeah, he was at a, one of the receptions here.
It's very, you know, incredible book. And the other thing I'll say is,
like, for people you're listening that don't know what they want to do in music,
you know, you don't want to be. You want to be a manager, an agent,
you want to work for a label. You want to work in sync publishing, licensing.
Like, it will give you at least a layman's understanding. Yeah. Okay.
(29:08):
What direction should I go? It's a great baseline book to me. It's like a
great baseline to like, kind of all encompassing and then kind of get you
going. Yeah. Precisely. What advice would you have for those
who are interested in pursuing a career, a professional career
in music today? Wow. Well, one, don't,
don't pigeonhole yourself. It seems like on a.
(29:30):
I was gonna say yearly, but even on a monthly basis there's some new platform
out there. Right. If you're, if you're an artist or you're a
songwriter, social media is your toolkit. It's your ability
to reach a global audience in a way that you've never seen before. And
I would even go a step forward and say be aggressive about it.
Jump on these regional social media platforms in different countries. You
(29:52):
know, Weverse is huge in Korea, you know, RedNote is big in
China. India has their own version of TikTok. Brazil has their streaming
platforms. Be everywhere because you just never know what's going
to take off. But put together a real great content
strategy and you know what people liken to
today's, you know, what you used to see before, a lot of bts guest content
(30:14):
of tours going on and, you know, bands going on tour and all that kind
of stuff. People want to see the creative journey, people want to see the hard
work that's being put in. People want to see you in the studio, they want
to see you going out and trying to get these shows, playing at bars, playing
at clubs, playing whatever you need to do. And you know that
that creates environment where people want to root for you. And I
(30:35):
think gaining a fan base on social will eventually trickle itself into
streaming. But, you know, in addition to doing that, make sure that, you know, the
Don Fasten looks great, but like, make sure you have all of your,
your things set up in terms of making sure that when you are ready to
distribute music, you're doing it consistently. What I
often see is emerging artists and new artists today saying,
(30:56):
okay, you know, I have, you know, three songs, I'm ready to release them. Then
what's the plan after that? Because, yeah, there's, it's
streaming is very difficult now nowadays. You need to, you know, create an
environment for yourself to be above and beyond
and you know, don't, don't release music until you have 20 songs.
Right. Make sure you have a consistent one year roadmap of what's
(31:18):
happening so that your plan on social, you know, kind
of, you know, matches up with that and that you don't get stopped and your
contraction continues to go up. So, yeah, I think it's really important to
plan things out while well ahead of time. Yeah, and, and the key word you
said is to have a plan. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's crucial.
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, when I was, when we would talk to,
(31:40):
you know, the emerging artists that I used to represent at 360, it
would be about, you know, and many of them were signed to labels, so we
had a little bit of help. But like, you know, many of them were very,
very focused on the big ticket items. I want to play
Roxy, I want to have a Billboard piece go out.
And you know, those are great looks, don't get me wrong. But the
(32:01):
real grunty, hard work, non flashy stuff, which is
like, I got 15 new followers today on Instagram. I got three
new followers today on Spotify. That's the stuff that matters. Those are huge
wins. Yeah, those are, those are the wins that matter. Those are the ones that
matter for these, especially these younger audiences, these Gen Z, Gen Alpha
kids, you know, and you know, we. Platforms like Hook,
(32:23):
we, we hope to help that emerging artist journey. You know, we want to create
an environment for people to like a Julia Klein where, you know, you can get
discovered in a completely different way. But doing the, doing the
heavy work, having a plan, being consistent about it, I think is key. Karan
Bhatnagar, what's the best way to contact you? Is it through the website? Yeah,
through the website hookmusic.com. you know, we're
(32:44):
live in the App Store and every country basically just type and hook music,
you know, play with the app. There's, you know, support within the app. The best
way to contact me, you know, on LinkedIn as well. But yeah, website,
LinkedIn, all that kind of stuff. Wonderful. We want to thank you so
much for taking the time to come in and. Great conversation, great conversation.
Thank you. My Brain spinning. I love it. Thank you guys for having me. Good.
(33:05):
Thank you so much for doing it. Really, really important
stuff. Really important, Eric. This was a conversation I think
that our insiders need to know about because it touched
on something that may not have been deliberately stated, but I want
to state it here for our insiders, which is that one of the things
that I thought was most important is, you know, he spoke about the
(33:28):
idea of visibility. Yeah. Okay. This is something
that, you know, in previous years, Bob Leftsetz has talked a
lot about. And it's a very important component that in the world that we live
in today, attention, visibility is more
important than necessarily, you know, how much money they're going to
pay you. Exactly. Because, you know, you can get double the rate on, you know,
(33:50):
what, this many streams. So you were. But it's the future that you're building
towards. And so when you get to that critical mass, then.
Absolutely. And that's what he talked about here, is that he's
providing another platform to not only provide that visibility,
but to pay you. And his point that I thought was so well taken is
the fact that. That a lot of this is happening in the past illegally.
(34:12):
Right. You know, it's just being put on. It may provide the visibility, but
you're not getting compensated. Right. He's talking about compensating people,
but more importantly, providing a vehicle for exposure and visibility,
which didn't exist. That's the more important. And that's what I was just
going to say. I couldn't agree more. That's the most important part of it. Also,
one of the other areas which I thought, and this is going back to what
(34:33):
you're talking about with the artists on the importance of small wins. This is really
important, guys. The real grungy, and I quote, hard work, non
flashy stuff, which is like, I got 15 new followers today on
Instagram, or I got three new followers today on Spotify. That's the
stuff that matters. And that's what Ritch is talking about, building on those small
wins. This is a battle of attrition. Remember, you're. I always use that expression,
(34:56):
you're running. I mean, I, I don't want to bring politics into the mix, but
it's almost like you're using the metaphor of that you're running for a presidential
campaign. You're trying to shake those hands, kiss those babies, and each
one that you get is one step closer. And so
that, to me, is the stuff that matters. Those are the wins that matter,
especially for these younger audiences. Absolutely. And It's a perfect
(35:17):
metaphor for the world that we live in today that, you know, it's not
about a race that you can just, you know, finish in
print in, in one minute. It's a marathon and you got to be able to
go like you're saying, the distance, 26 miles, the full
distance. That's what's most important today. Hey
insiders, thanks so much for tuning in to this episode. We really appreciate
(35:39):
it. To get show notes, links and everything that was mentioned during this
interview, head on over to our official
website at
mubutv.com/podcast/shownotes. If you're enjoying the content and what
we're doing here on the show, please subscribe to the podcast on Apple
Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts from.
And don't forget to rate and review our show at iTunes. Five star
(36:02):
reviews are always welcome and help to ensure that our podcast stands
out on the top rated and new and noteworthy charts on itunes
and our space. You can also find us at social media at Facebook,
Instagram, TikTok and Twitter X, all ending with the
handle mubutv, which is spelled M U B U T V.
Don't forget to catch our flagship show, the MUBUTV Music Business
(36:24):
Insider Video Series airing every week on YouTube at
YouTube.com/@MUBUTV. This show
was produced and created by Ritch Esra and Eric Knight, theme music
by Disciples of Babylon. And be sure to tune in next week for another
episode of the MUBUTV Music Business Insider
Podcast.
On today's podcast, we sit down with Karan Bhatnagar, digital
strategy expert and a driving force behind Hook, the
revolutionary music platform shaking up the industry. Karan
gives us an insider look at how Hook is using ethically built
AI to empower artists, creators and fans.
From remixing hit songs to expanding artist revenue streams in
(00:22):
this new age of social media driven music consumption, we explore
the future of streaming, the challenges of securing music licenses with
major labels and the game changing opportunity opportunities for emerging
artists to gain global visibility. Karan Bhatnagar also shares real
success stories and practical advice for anyone looking to break into
the music business. Insiders this conversation redefines
(00:43):
how music will be created, shared and monetized.
You won't want to miss it. Insiders, are you ready?
Welcome to MUBUTV's Music Business Insider Podcast
where our mission is to educate, empower and engage artists
and music business professionals who are dedicated to having a successful career
(01:04):
in the new music industry. Here are your hosts, Ritch Esra
and Eric Knight. Welcome back insiders, to another episode of the
MUBUTV Music Business Insider podcast where our mission
is to educate, empower and engage your music career. On
today's episode, we sit down with Karan Bhatnagar, a digital
strategist and the forward thinking force behind Hook. If you've ever
(01:26):
wondered how social media, AI and remix culture are
reshaping the music landscape, this is the conversation you can't afford to
miss. We break down how Hook is pioneering pioneering streaming 2.0,
opening up new revenue streams and giving artists and rights
holders unprecedented control over their music in the social age.
Karan shares insider stories about how major labels and independent
(01:48):
artists alike are navigating the challenges of licensing,
monetization and creative freedom. From emerging artists going
viral to the ethics of AI powered remixes, you'll hear how
today's music industry is changing in real time and what it means for
your career. Plus, Karan Bhatnagar offers actionable advice for
artists and music professionals on building a global fan base,
(02:10):
mastering content strategy and why having a plan is more
important than ever. You won't want to miss this insightful, inspiring
and future driven conversation, but first, a
word from our sponsor. Hey insiders. Are you an aspiring
musician, artist, band or future music business professional looking
to take your career to the next level? Well, look no further. At
(02:31):
MUBUTV we offer personalized career counseling and coaching during
designed specifically for folks like you. Imagine having both of us by your
side, guiding you through every step of your music journey. Our sessions are
tailored to meet your unique needs, focusing on critical aspects of your
music career, such as refining your songs, defining your artist story,
identifying your target audience, and enhancing your social media
(02:54):
presence, just to name a few. Whether you're just starting out or looking to
elevate your existing career, we've got you covered. Our comprehensive approach
ensures you you get insights on everything from live
shows to branding and marketing strategies. We understand
that every artist is unique. That's why our coaching is
personalized just for you. And here's the best part. We offer
(03:15):
flexible coaching packages that fit any budget. Choose from individual
sessions ranging from 30 to 90 minutes or save with our discounted four
session packages. Experience custom sessions designed to enhance your
music career with opportunities for greater savings. When you choose bundled
sessions, investing in your musical journey has never been more
accessible. Imagine the clarity and direction you'll gain
(03:37):
after just one session, the feedback on your songs, the
strategies to grow your audience, and the confidence to perform live. All
tailored just for you. So why wait? Don't let uncertainty
hold you back. Join us for your free 15 minute discovery
call at book.mubutv.com for a
transformative coaching experience that will elevate your music career.
(03:58):
That's book MUBUTV.
Hi, this is Jeremy Yohai, senior vice president of A&R at Concord Music
Publishing, and you're listening to the MUBUTV Music Business
Insider Podcast. Welcome back insiders. Today's featured guest is
Karan Bhatnagar, a digital strategist and the forward thinking force
behind Hook. This was a very, very, very important
(04:21):
conversation and one that I think our listeners need to understand. You know, we've
had guests before. Who was the woman that we had a couple
years ago who, who did the. The tracks being erased.
Yes. What's important about it and where the connection between her
and Karan Bhatnagar comes in is that we are finding new ways to
monetize music legally and getting artists paid.
(04:43):
And that's the important part. I mean, you know, when you look at like the
viral growth for emerging artists remixing, it can often skyrocket today
for smaller artists, you know, linking their music to well known songs. For artists
such as, you know, how Julia Klein, I think he mentioned, you know, the track
Echo gained traction. What's important about this is that, you know, I think he
also spoke about the fact that so much of the music on
(05:04):
social media platforms isn't licensed, isn't licensed up, it's remixed,
it's, you know, and nobody's making any money from it. Although it's being
used to promote things. He's actually offering you a chance to, to get
paid. And most importantly to give the data of who's listening, which is
most important. Yeah. One of the other things that I thought was the remix
accessibility. This is something that was close to me because I'm thinking about. I've
(05:26):
actually done a couple of remixes for my single, but I want to put this
out into the world and see what people can bring back as far as remixes.
My track. And Hook lets non musicians, which are like
dancers, lifestyle creators etc, remix music
easily removing the barriers for broader creative participation that
was once limited to those with production skills. So I think that that's a really
(05:47):
unique angle that Karan Bhatnagar has with Hook. Yeah,
absolutely. I mean this used to be something that was controlled by the label.
They would hire a remixer, pay them a certain amount of money and get, you
know, six mixes and put out a 12 inch single if you were lucky in
the old days. Right now, you know, we're seeing a
multitude of uses for, for music, but mostly
(06:08):
it's, it's not necessarily the, the usage as much as
it is the benefit to artists and songwriters. It's another music discovery
platform. Platform, Absolutely. And with that, insiders sit
back, relax and enjoy our featured conversation from Muse
Expo 2025 with Karan Bhatnagar Buttnagar. Karan
Bhatnagar, welcome. Nice to be here. Nice to meet you guys. Nice to meet you
(06:31):
and welcome to the show. You know, with social media's influence on
music growing so rapidly in these days, how do
you envision Hook's role in reshaping the relationship between
artists, fans and the broader music ecosystem? Well, it's
interesting, I think, you know, AI has changed a lot, especially
over the last year and there's been a lot of conversation on what's ethical and
(06:52):
what's not, you know, what can harm artists and what can help artists. I think
the stance that we've taken is we want to approach this in an ethical way.
If AI is going to be here and it's, you know, it's going to be
here, there's no need to, you know, fear monger over it. There's no need to
be scared about what's to come. It's going to be a part of our lives.
How for this specific industry can we make it by the artists, by the
rights holders and how can we open up new marketing and revenue streams for them?
(07:15):
So for us as a company, what we've done is we've taken a very rules
based approach when it comes to AI and we've said, okay, how can we
harness AI as a tool to help artists grow in this new age? So instead
of, you know, going to a platform and saying, you know, write me
a three minute song by that sounds like this and
talks about this and it spits out this perfect three minute track.
(07:36):
We're saying, why don't we take something that exists, why don't we allow fans
and creators and artists to remix it in a different way, mash it up in
a different way. It's behaviors that we're already seeing on social Media today.
Nearly 50% of the music on TikTok is modified. It's
sped up, it's slowed down, it's mashed up. But it's happening without rights
holder approval, it's happening without artist visibility. But what it's doing is it's
(07:59):
driving consumption, it's driving streaming. You're seeing, you know, an artist like
Tyla on TikTok who has, you know, five different remixed
versions of water on TikTok going absolutely nuts. And you're seeing
it impact consumption. So it's about how do you harness that, how do you create
control around it? And that's what we're doing at Hook is we want to create
an ecosystem where people, fans, artists, creators can
(08:20):
do this, share it to their social media platforms so they have a better chance
at marketability while getting that visibility and control that they need. Karan
Bhatnagar, thank you so much for, for joining us on the show. You literally just
took the words right out of our mouth and you've said that nearly 50%
of songs on social media are remixed in some way. Crazy
stat, right? Yeah. And yet the current music economy doesn't fully support
(08:42):
this form of social streaming. How does Hook ensure that
both emerging and established artists are fairly compensated for their creative
contributions in this space? So we have a, you know, we people
talk about streaming 2.0 today, right? And there's been a lot of conversations about what
streaming 2.0 looks like. Well, in our estimation, streaming
2.0 is taking the consumption and revenue
(09:04):
model from streaming, which, you know, is Spotify the best use case?
Maybe, maybe not. But what they have done is they've compensated rights holders. Right.
Social media is not doing that today. TikTok is giving, you know, I
don't know how much they make, let's call it 2, $3 billion a year. They're
giving 1% of that back to the music industry. That's nothing. And when you
look at social media in aggregate, if you added up all of the
(09:26):
minutes on social media today, they are more than people
stream on dsps. It's, it's, it's
incredible. But the economics don't match so, you know, what we're trying to do is
we're trying to change the conversation. We're trying to say, what is streaming 2.0? Well,
why don't we take the streaming model and apply it to social? Why don't we
say, you know, not nearly as much as Spotify, but why don't we take a
(09:48):
fair rev share and for anything that's consumed, shared,
developed on Hook, we're giving an, you know, equal fair
share back to the rights holder pool and we as a company are keeping a
fair share ourselves. So it's taking, you know, the inspirations of what's working
on social media, taking the economics of streaming and kind of blending those
two together. Amazing. Can you share with us or walk us through
(10:09):
the process of securing, you know, the music licenses with major and
independent labels and how these collaborations will change the way music is
shared and monetized on Hook? It's tough. Yeah, yeah,
it's, it's, it's. I would think it would be easy. No, it's not. It's not.
And it's not going to be easy. I mean, you know, the majors especially
are. Listen, if you, if you look at these contracts, they're archaic contracts,
(10:31):
right? The, the legal standards by which this industry has been
propped up has, is, is, is very old and is very
by the book. And it's that for a reason there needs to be control
around art, right? And for us,
you know, we're not trying to come in and modify that at a great
scale. We're not trying to do what a lot of these other generative AI companies
(10:53):
are doing, which are all being sued now, by the way, because they haven't built
in the right way. We're trying to take an approach that is familiar to
them. So, you know, when we talk to the major labels and independents and
distributors, by the way, a lot of the conversation is, listen, this,
it's about user behavior, this is action that's happening today, right?
Creators and fans are remixing music and you're not getting paid anything
(11:16):
from it. So how can we create an ecosystem that
allows this to happen while providing you the data and you now do
get revenue from it. And that's been really, it's been a warming
conversation. You know, our CEO often talks about,
you know, back when streaming started, it was pulling teeth,
right? It was pulling teeth to get these deals done because they're like, this is
(11:38):
a new frontier. Well, with social today, you
know, there's a reason UMG takes all of their music off of TikTok. There's a
reason why you're seeing, Believe sue, you're seeing all of these things come out
in the process press, and it's because there isn't some sort of fair compensation
model. So, you know, going back to your question, it was, it's, you know,
that's been. Our approach in these, in these conversations is, you know, we can show
(12:00):
you the platform, we can show you, you know, how amazing and fun it is.
But at the end of the day, here's how it benefits you. And what we're
trying to do is unlock a new segment of the music revenue economy. And
that's been, I think, the most warming piece of the conversation when it comes
to majors and distributors. But they're both, they're big companies and
it's going to take time and it's going to take, you know, different mindset.
(12:21):
So it's, it's, it's just about plugging away. But if we're coming to it with
the right mindset, with an ethical approach, I think it's, it's better than what's happening
today. Yeah, precisely. I mean, I remember when, you know, just the whole concept
of remixes. Yeah. Back in the day is, you know, back in the day, you'd
have to get. Hire the person, get them the tracks.
You know, you'd pay them a fee and they would give you X amount of
(12:41):
mixes for that fee. 6, 8, 9. Actual
physical, different mixes. You'd have to. The artist would have to approve it all.
You know, a 12 inch was pressed, you know, or a CD
and then it was put out. So it's, you know, and to your point, which
is interesting about all of this being done without monetization, is that, you know, one
of the comebacks I've heard when I would mention that is. But
(13:04):
we're contributing to the artist's visibility out in the
marketplace. Sure. You know, we're giving, we're, we're exposing
Selena Gomez to another segment that wouldn't be there.
Yeah. So, you know, we're contributing in a way. So it's, it's, it's a
kind of consciousness that you face. Absolutely. And by the way, that's a true statement.
You know, it's, it's absolutely correct. But there's no reason why it can't be
(13:26):
both. Right. There, there's an, there's, there's an ecosystem where
people can get compensated in the right way, they can be controlled in the right
way. Because if you also think about artists. Right. You know, let's take Selena Gomez.
Does she Want her music slowed down or sped up or turned into
some pop punk record. Maybe not right, but fans are
doing it today. If we can create an ecosystem at Hook, where on
(13:48):
a filter by filter and our sound filters in the app are genre
filters. So if you think about like when Instagram started, they released photo
filters, right? So you can change your image with, you know, sepia
and all these different ones. Those are kind of what our sound filters are like,
is you can take a Selena record and you can make it sound pop punk
or afrobeat or drum and bass, but if Selena or her label doesn't
(14:08):
want that to be the case, then we can turn that filter off, right? So
it's a granular control that like now as an artist, you feel
a lot more comfortable with people remixing your audios. And now if something
does go viral, you still have that marketability that you were talking about and that
global scale. But if something takes off, you now have the revenue opportunity too, which
is. Which is fantastic opportunity. You know, Karan Bhatnagar, ethically
(14:31):
built AI tools are a key part of Hook's strategy. How do you
ensure that these tools empower creators and enhance their music
experiences without infringing on their creative controller rights? You kind of
touched a little bit. On that, but yeah, a bit. I mean, I think the
model that we've, we've taken is one of capcut.
If you're familiar with what Cap Cut has done in the video editing space,
(14:53):
it's, you know, it's essentially made it easier. It's by
no means perfect, but it's made it easier for people to kind of, you
know, be a professional ish looking video editor. And you don't have to open up
Adobe anymore. You don't have to open up Imovie. You can do things. So, you
know, what we're likening ourselves to is the Cap Cut for music, Cap Cut for
music editing. And from a creator perspective, what we've seen and some of the great
(15:15):
behaviors that we've seen in the app today is creators that are
dancers or lifestyle creators or people that typically
are not, you know, music leaning. You know, they don't have, they know how to
use music tools. They now have the ability to remix in a way that they
could never do before. Because the way it's done today is you open up
GarageBand or you open up Ableton or Pro Tools and you know,
(15:37):
you speed it up, you slow it down, you change the genre, you do all
these things to it, you add your video on top of it and then you
share it to social media. That's a difficult
process. It's a two to four day process for people that even understand those
technologies through hook, you can now do it with five minutes.
And, you know, speaking about the ethical piece of it, it's exactly what I was
mentioning about the controls. You know, it's like we want to be able to, from
(15:59):
a rights holder perspective, give as much control and visibility
to them as possible. And that can be on a song by song, catalog by
catalog, you know, level to the point where, you know, we're talking
with Sony Music and they say, well, I don't want any of my songs mashed
up with Universal, we can turn off that. If they're saying, I don't want my
songs shared to TikTok, which, you know, we frankly believe that's where the consumption is
(16:20):
happening. So we would push for it. Right. But, you know, if Universal's another
argument with TikTok and they're saying, no, we don't want to share there, we can
turn that off so we can sandbox everything as well. So it's, you know,
it's a mix of providing the right tools and making sure
that the artists and the rights holders feel comfortable about it. And I think the
key with that is not growing too quickly and making sure that everything
(16:42):
that we're building falls within our ethical standards as a company.
Hey, insiders, we hope that you've been enjoying our featured conversation.
Stay tuned because we've got so much value coming your way. But before we
dive back in, a word from our sponsor. Hey, Eric, as an artist,
what do you find are the most challenging aspects to a music
career, especially when you're starting out? Well, I think one of the first things is
(17:04):
just trying to get the direction of who you are as an artist, where you
want to go, where you want to be. And, you know, we've talked about it
on the show a lot. Who is. Is your target audience, who you are, who,
what do you stand for? What do you believe in? What do you think would
resonate with an audience? And so those are some of the things that I would
feel being a new artist. Obviously what I know now is different because I know
these things, but for people that are out there, like our audience, that don't have
(17:28):
necessarily any direction to go, would be the first things that I would start off
with. And having the songs incorporate those
elements that you're speaking of into it, that's so important today.
Yeah. And I think that's one of the reasons why we started MUBUTV and why
we started this new consulting service that, that we're offering to all of our
insiders out there, because that is another one of the big things. I mean, that
(17:48):
is the big thing is like having the great songs. That's what it really starts
off. Our friend Don Grierson always said it always starts with a great song.
So that's probably. Besides putting together what your audience and what
your target audience is, is the single most important thing. Where are your songs
at currently today? Are you collaborating with people? Are you trying
to go out to networking events where you can connect with other songwriters and stuff
(18:10):
like that? So, yeah. And what are your strengths exactly? You know,
are you a strong lyric writer? Are you a strong melody writer? Are
you a strong musician, A player? Right. You know, and it's really important
to get really strong clarity on those issues before
proceeding. I totally agree, Ritch. And you know, with our consulting services,
we offer a myriad of different packages that we've made it super affordable
(18:33):
for everybody. So, you know, if you guys are interested out there and connecting with
us on a coaching call, you can visit
book.moobutv.com and start off with a free
15 minute discovery call. Well, yeah, absolutely. That. We start with an
initial 15 minute call where we can get a sense of who you are. What
are the issues that you specifically have and want to work on.
(18:54):
Exactly. And we can go from there. Absolutely. Yeah. And we tailor everything
to your needs. It's not like a cookie cutter thing. We kind of really want
to get to know who you are as an artist, where you at today, what's
the snapshot of you as an artist today, and then start trying to
craft something that's tailor made for you. So again, if you're interested,
Visit us at book.mubutv.com for your 15 minute
(19:15):
discovery call. You've talked about some of the, you know, great
people that you've worked with, you know, producers, creators.
Can you talk about some of the success stories that Hook has had so far
in terms of the creative space? Yeah, I mean, one particular
one that I'm really passionate. Well, I'll. I'll say two, actually. One, but the first
one is, is this artist named Julia Klein who, who you
(19:37):
may or may not have heard of, but she's a relatively small emerging artist.
And I say this to say, you know, it's not the biggest artist name, but
it shows you the behavior and the opportunity for emerging artists on our platform.
Her song is this dance record called Echo, which is, you know, had a
bit of a moment on TikTok in Europe and kind of fell off there. But
it's a familiar sound. The thing that we've seen in
(19:59):
terms of behavior on the app is people love remixing it. And when you take
a Julia Cline record and you mix it with a Teddy Swim song or with
a Justin Bieber song or, you know, with, with another artist song on our
platform, Charlie xcx, it instantly drives more
visibility on her because she's tied to an artist of more
notoriety. And if you look at Echo on our app, it's one of the most
(20:20):
consumed tracks on a platform. So now you have thousands of thousands of people that
may not have heard of Julia Klein and may not have heard Echo and there's
tremendous visibility around it now. So, you know, it's not the
biggest artist name, but I'm really passionate about this approach. It's giving emerging
artists a completely new way. Yeah. To kind of interact with their
audiences and potentially have something that puts them, you know, to
(20:42):
the next level in their trajectory. That's amazing. Yeah. Because it's showing it in a
microcosm of what can be. Exactly. What could become. Exactly.
And the other, you know, stuff that we're working on is, you know, as people
are blending and mixing genres, it opens up your scale from a
global perspective. Right. So you're seeing people now turn songs into
Afrobeat records, K Pop records records, Indian records. And you're now
(21:03):
reaching a visibility with our creator base on platform that also has
a global reach that allows us to kind of take
artists and songs and expand them into different audiences globally
too. So that's really exciting for us. Karin, as social media and
streaming platforms continue to evolve, how do you see the
balance between maintaining a platform's artistic integrity and
(21:25):
meeting the growing demand for user generated content and engagement management?
It's. Yeah, it's tough. It's a very difficult push and pull.
I think as platforms develop, and I'm not
just talking about Hook, but as other platforms develop, there's a very
important key thing that they need to look at and
that comes down to. And by the way, you know, coming from artist management, I
(21:47):
always have this artist first integrity approach. Right. But as you're building a
business, that's what needs to be core. And it can be someone building
a superfan subscription like Spotify apparently is trying to do. It can, can be
a new business that's trying to engage something in the live event space. It can
be something like Hook that enables remixing. But as you have
a key understanding of UGC user bases Artists,
(22:10):
you need to make sure that you're doing everything by the book.
And it doesn't necessarily need to be by the legal handbook, but it needs to
be by the book of how this industry has been developed. Because we've seen
situations of companies that have, you know, grown in
immense scale and have had, you know, great storylines, but fizzle
up. Right, and they fizzle up because, you know, at some point,
(22:32):
you know, either a platform kind of consumes them or what they built
was not scalable enough for the industry that we work in. So I think for
us as a company, as we, you know, bring more creators into the platform
and focus on more users, our goal is to make sure
that our tools that we're creating are super easy. And the data
tracking around all of that is something that's really, really, really important. We're,
(22:54):
you know, when something is created on Hook and shared to TikTok or Instagram or
another platform, we create a monthly data report and we send
that to the label and rights holder so they can see in real time or
real enough time what's being consumed, how it's being shared.
And also given, you know, the. The plethora of our filters that we have in
the app today, it shows them how people are consuming with music. So I
(23:16):
think it's just about transparency and visibility. As you continue to grow,
given your. Background in Digital strategy with 360
management, how do you approach designing campaigns for Hook's
platform that drive revenue and virality? I think revenue
is definitely the second piece. I think for us, it's about creating a
moment for the artist. You know, during my time at 360, you know, I
(23:39):
worked on, you know, a wide variety of artists, notably Calvin Harris. And
with someone as large as Calvin, it's very difficult, difficult to decipher
fan base. You know, you want to be able to understand what his fans want
while being able to market and target the larger market.
And, you know, it was also interesting when I, you know, was at 360
or 2020 is really the year when TikTok started really pushing artists in a
(24:02):
completely different way. So you take those learnings and you take those behaviors
and you understand, okay, how are we driving campaign
strategy and how is that impact impacting the music? And it involves
the artist. You know, it has to have the artists that are bought in.
A lot of the campaigns that we're developing for Hook today are to
drive virality on social, notably Instagram and TikTok. But
(24:25):
the artist needs to be leaned in. The artist needs to Be excited about what
we're building. They need to be part of the campaigns, they need to be part
of the storyline, because when that takes place, then their fan bases are
activated. You know, we could even easily do something in the app today. And, you
know, we can have something that lives as a sandbox and, you know, we can
not have the artists involved, but we really want the fan bases involved because that's
(24:45):
what. That's what's going to take them to the next level. And if you think
about it, if you're a fan of, you know, a Tyler, the creator, or that
one of these, like, enigmatic artists, you want to be able to
be part of that journey when they're providing something that's completely new, like
remixing, you know, there hasn't been, to my knowledge, remixing at scale
with the controllability and ease that there is today with Hook. And if
(25:06):
that's the case, I know if I was a fan of artists, I would definitely
want that artist involved and would want to know how I could be part of
that journey. Precisely throughout your life, what books or
films or documentaries have you found to be particularly inspirational
to you, professionally speaking, that you could recommend to our listeners?
Well, you know, it's interesting. I'm a huge, huge basketball
(25:28):
fan, so taking it out of music for a little bit, you know,
particularly a Kobe Bryant fan. So, you know, a lot of
how I, and I and I come from the tech world, I, you know, I
grew up in the Bay Area and San Francisco Bay area, and I saw, you
know, Facebook and YouTube and all these companies grow as I was growing up, which
is mad if you think about it. But, you know, what I. What I really
(25:49):
wanted to understand was how can I motivate myself and how can I
be different? Because what I didn't want to do was work in tech. I wanted
to work in entertainment and music, but I didn't know how. And Kobe was a
great inspiration to me because, you know, there was never a pathway,
but you get to find the motivation and the hunger and the drive
to kind of develop that. And for someone that had zero experience in the
(26:11):
music industry, you know, I. I took that approach and I started
emailing cold emailing like 50 people a day for like six months.
Wow, you to come down to LA every other week. Used to try and get
my name out into this industry, try and network, try and do everything that I
possibly can. So in terms of, like, a motivating factor, for me, it
was him. But, you know, for people that are, you know, coming
(26:33):
into this industry. A great, great, great knowledge base of a
book is. Is Don Passman's book. Yeah.
And, you know, Don was at south by Southwest when I was just there.
And you can see. See the glimmer in these people's eyes when they see him.
It's a really, really great handbook. It's like the
bible of the music. Yeah, it is. And it's easy to understand.
(26:55):
Exactly. That's his gift. Exactly. It's easy to understand. And. And the
beauty is he comes out with a new version every year. So there's always. I'm.
I haven't read it. Exactly. I'm sure there's something about, you know, AI
and, you know, streaming deals and things of that nature in today's edition, but for
someone that. That, you know, lived in the Bay Area, was in the tech environment,
and had no idea about music, reading his book
(27:17):
in combination with doing all of the work I was doing was really, really helpful.
Did you get a chance to meet him down at Southwest? Southwest? I did. Again.
It was such a madhouse. We've had him on the show a couple times. On
the show twice. I've known him for many, many years, and we've had him on.
I have the first edition of that. It's. It's
small. Yeah, it's a very small one. I. I remember when I. When I got
it, I went down to his office and he signed it for me and everything.
(27:40):
And it wasn't the. What. What he has always talked about with that
book is the reason it's been so successful is because it
got used and became used as the textbook
to teach. He said that's the reason that the demand has
always been there for him to do these constant new editions. And like, when we
did the 10th edition interview with him, he said it took him four years.
(28:03):
Really? Yeah. To do the 10th edition. It was four years
because he said so much had changed. And then the 11th, the 11th edition took
like three. Three takes, basically three years for him to update it, but he took
an extra year on that one because it happened to be a lot of. So
a lot of stuff. It's such a mad process because if you think about in
him writing those four years, there's things that are happening. Happening in
real time. Yeah, he has to incorporate. You incorporate. And he.
(28:26):
He. He does definitely incorporate that stuff into. He's amazing.
One of our team members is. Is like a super fan, if you call that.
So Don. Yeah. Yeah. So he went to the. He went to the panel and
he had Don sign The book. And he came back and he's like, oh, my
God. I got, you know, the Bible's been signed. The Bible's
been signed. Yes, absolutely. He was here last
(28:47):
year. Was he? Don came? Yeah, he was at a, one of the receptions here.
It's very, you know, incredible book. And the other thing I'll say is,
like, for people you're listening that don't know what they want to do in music,
you know, you don't want to be. You want to be a manager, an agent,
you want to work for a label. You want to work in sync publishing, licensing.
Like, it will give you at least a layman's understanding. Yeah. Okay.
(29:08):
What direction should I go? It's a great baseline book to me. It's like a
great baseline to like, kind of all encompassing and then kind of get you
going. Yeah. Precisely. What advice would you have for those
who are interested in pursuing a career, a professional career
in music today? Wow. Well, one, don't,
don't pigeonhole yourself. It seems like on a.
(29:30):
I was gonna say yearly, but even on a monthly basis there's some new platform
out there. Right. If you're, if you're an artist or you're a
songwriter, social media is your toolkit. It's your ability
to reach a global audience in a way that you've never seen before. And
I would even go a step forward and say be aggressive about it.
Jump on these regional social media platforms in different countries. You
(29:52):
know, Weverse is huge in Korea, you know, RedNote is big in
China. India has their own version of TikTok. Brazil has their streaming
platforms. Be everywhere because you just never know what's going
to take off. But put together a real great content
strategy and you know what people liken to
today's, you know, what you used to see before, a lot of bts guest content
(30:14):
of tours going on and, you know, bands going on tour and all that kind
of stuff. People want to see the creative journey, people want to see the hard
work that's being put in. People want to see you in the studio, they want
to see you going out and trying to get these shows, playing at bars, playing
at clubs, playing whatever you need to do. And you know that
that creates environment where people want to root for you. And I
(30:35):
think gaining a fan base on social will eventually trickle itself into
streaming. But, you know, in addition to doing that, make sure that, you know, the
Don Fasten looks great, but like, make sure you have all of your,
your things set up in terms of making sure that when you are ready to
distribute music, you're doing it consistently. What I
often see is emerging artists and new artists today saying,
(30:56):
okay, you know, I have, you know, three songs, I'm ready to release them. Then
what's the plan after that? Because, yeah, there's, it's
streaming is very difficult now nowadays. You need to, you know, create an
environment for yourself to be above and beyond
and you know, don't, don't release music until you have 20 songs.
Right. Make sure you have a consistent one year roadmap of what's
(31:18):
happening so that your plan on social, you know, kind
of, you know, matches up with that and that you don't get stopped and your
contraction continues to go up. So, yeah, I think it's really important to
plan things out while well ahead of time. Yeah, and, and the key word you
said is to have a plan. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's crucial.
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, when I was, when we would talk to,
(31:40):
you know, the emerging artists that I used to represent at 360, it
would be about, you know, and many of them were signed to labels, so we
had a little bit of help. But like, you know, many of them were very,
very focused on the big ticket items. I want to play
Roxy, I want to have a Billboard piece go out.
And you know, those are great looks, don't get me wrong. But the
(32:01):
real grunty, hard work, non flashy stuff, which is
like, I got 15 new followers today on Instagram. I got three
new followers today on Spotify. That's the stuff that matters. Those are huge
wins. Yeah, those are, those are the wins that matter. Those are the ones that
matter for these, especially these younger audiences, these Gen Z, Gen Alpha
kids, you know, and you know, we. Platforms like Hook,
(32:23):
we, we hope to help that emerging artist journey. You know, we want to create
an environment for people to like a Julia Klein where, you know, you can get
discovered in a completely different way. But doing the, doing the
heavy work, having a plan, being consistent about it, I think is key. Karan
Bhatnagar, what's the best way to contact you? Is it through the website? Yeah,
through the website hookmusic.com. you know, we're
(32:44):
live in the App Store and every country basically just type and hook music,
you know, play with the app. There's, you know, support within the app. The best
way to contact me, you know, on LinkedIn as well. But yeah, website,
LinkedIn, all that kind of stuff. Wonderful. We want to thank you so
much for taking the time to come in and. Great conversation, great conversation.
Thank you. My Brain spinning. I love it. Thank you guys for having me. Good.
(33:05):
Thank you so much for doing it. Really, really important
stuff. Really important, Eric. This was a conversation I think
that our insiders need to know about because it touched
on something that may not have been deliberately stated, but I want
to state it here for our insiders, which is that one of the things
that I thought was most important is, you know, he spoke about the
(33:28):
idea of visibility. Yeah. Okay. This is something
that, you know, in previous years, Bob Leftsetz has talked a
lot about. And it's a very important component that in the world that we live
in today, attention, visibility is more
important than necessarily, you know, how much money they're going to
pay you. Exactly. Because, you know, you can get double the rate on, you know,
(33:50):
what, this many streams. So you were. But it's the future that you're building
towards. And so when you get to that critical mass, then.
Absolutely. And that's what he talked about here, is that he's
providing another platform to not only provide that visibility,
but to pay you. And his point that I thought was so well taken is
the fact that. That a lot of this is happening in the past illegally.
(34:12):
Right. You know, it's just being put on. It may provide the visibility, but
you're not getting compensated. Right. He's talking about compensating people,
but more importantly, providing a vehicle for exposure and visibility,
which didn't exist. That's the more important. And that's what I was just
going to say. I couldn't agree more. That's the most important part of it. Also,
one of the other areas which I thought, and this is going back to what
(34:33):
you're talking about with the artists on the importance of small wins. This is really
important, guys. The real grungy, and I quote, hard work, non
flashy stuff, which is like, I got 15 new followers today on
Instagram, or I got three new followers today on Spotify. That's the
stuff that matters. And that's what Ritch is talking about, building on those small
wins. This is a battle of attrition. Remember, you're. I always use that expression,
(34:56):
you're running. I mean, I, I don't want to bring politics into the mix, but
it's almost like you're using the metaphor of that you're running for a presidential
campaign. You're trying to shake those hands, kiss those babies, and each
one that you get is one step closer. And so
that, to me, is the stuff that matters. Those are the wins that matter,
especially for these younger audiences. Absolutely. And It's a perfect
(35:17):
metaphor for the world that we live in today that, you know, it's not
about a race that you can just, you know, finish in
print in, in one minute. It's a marathon and you got to be able to
go like you're saying, the distance, 26 miles, the full
distance. That's what's most important today. Hey
insiders, thanks so much for tuning in to this episode. We really appreciate
(35:39):
it. To get show notes, links and everything that was mentioned during this
interview, head on over to our official
website at
mubutv.com/podcast/shownotes. If you're enjoying the content and what
we're doing here on the show, please subscribe to the podcast on Apple
Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts from.
And don't forget to rate and review our show at iTunes. Five star
(36:02):
reviews are always welcome and help to ensure that our podcast stands
out on the top rated and new and noteworthy charts on itunes
and our space. You can also find us at social media at Facebook,
Instagram, TikTok and Twitter X, all ending with the
handle mubutv, which is spelled M U B U T V.
Don't forget to catch our flagship show, the MUBUTV Music Business
(36:24):
Insider Video Series airing every week on YouTube at
YouTube.com/@MUBUTV. This show
was produced and created by Ritch Esra and Eric Knight, theme music
by Disciples of Babylon. And be sure to tune in next week for another
episode of the MUBUTV Music Business Insider
Podcast.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.