June 10, 2025 • 40 mins
What Does a Music Supervisor REALLY Do? Jennifer Smith Exposes the Myths of Sync Placement!
Discover what it really takes to succeed in the world of music supervision in our latest episode, of the 'MUBUTV Music Business Insider Podcast'. Acclaimed music supervisor Jennifer Smith (Why Women Kill, Black Barbie, Dancing with the Stars) shares invaluable insights about breaking into sync licensing, the rise of streaming, building authentic industry relationships, and tackling tech trends from generative AI to music metadata. Whether you’re an artist, songwriter, or music business pro, unlock the secrets to getting your music placed in film, TV, and more! 🎶🔥
#MusicSupervision #SyncLicensing #MusicIndustry #JenniferSmith #MUBUTV
Our mission here at MUBUTV is to help independent artists and music business professionals of the future to educate, empower and engage their music career.
🎙️ Music Business Insider Podcast: https://www.mubutv.com/podcast The Music Business Insider Podcast is a deep dive for listeners like you who want to educate, empower & engage their music career. We take you inside behind the scenes through a series of in-depth conversations with today’s leading experts in the Music Industry including A&R, Music Supervision, Artist Management, Marketing, Publicity, Touring, and much much more. You can find it by searching “Music Business Insider Podcast” on any podcast app or platform [ie: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, etc.].
📒 Show Notes and Resources 📒
https://www.mubutv.com/jennifer-smith-music-supervisor
⚡️What you'll learn in this episode⚡️
👉 The evolving landscape of sync & streaming
👉 Why authenticity matters in music placement
👉 Tips for breaking into the sync market
👉 and so much more...
Here are the ways to work with us here at MUBUTV:
⚡️Insiders! Secure Your Spot! Get expert music career coaching with Ritch & Eric. Book your 15-min discovery call now: Grab a spot! 👉 https://book.mubutv.com
⚡Insiders! Get Your FREE Music Supervisor Guide! Unlock pro tips and learn how to pitch Music Supervisors the right way. Don’t miss out! Download link below:
👉 https://link.mubutv.com/MSFreeGuide
Books on Music Supervision:
📒 Thinking In Sync: A Primer on the Mind of a Music Supervisor - https://amzn.to/3TJY6WY
🎧 Get Audible Free - Your favorite titles anywhere you go. Enjoy a free trial on us!
https://amzn.to/3RB2nu4
Podcast Credits
Produced by: Ritch Esra & Eric Knight
Editor: Eric Knight
Shownotes & Transcriptions: Rick Staffy
DISCLOSURE: Some product links are affiliate links which means if you buy something we'll receive a small commission.
Copyright © 2025 MUBUTV™ Media. All Rights Reserved
In our interview with music supervisor Jennifer Smith from Rat Dance Party, we dive into the role of a music supervisor and the ins and outs of music supervision. Smith explains what a m
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
On today's podcast, we're joined by acclaimed music supervisor Jennifer
Smith, the creative force behind projects like why Women Kill Black
Barbie and Dancing with the Stars. Jennifer takes us inside the evolving
landscape of music supervision, from the rise of streaming platforms to
navigating technology and trends that are changing the game. She also
shares the biggest misconceptions about the role, what it really takes to place your music
(00:22):
in film and tv, and reveals how her background in theater shapes
her approach to storytelling through sound. Whether you're an artist looking to break into
sync or simply fascinated by the business, this is an episode you
can't afford to miss. Insiders, are you ready?
Welcome to MUBUTV's Music Business Insider Podcast,
where our mission is to educate, empower and engage artists
(00:45):
and music business professionals who are dedicated to having a successful
career in the new music industry. Here are your hosts,
Ritch Esra and Eric Knight. Welcome back, insiders, to
another episode of the MUBUTV Music Business Insider
Podcast, where our mission is to educate, empower and engage
your music career. On today's episode, we sit down with the acclaimed music
(01:07):
supervisor Jennifer Smith, whose work spans from major scripted
series like why Women Kill to groundbreaking documentaries like
Black Barbie. Jennifer shares her insights into the ever changing landscape
of music supervision, from the impact of new technology and streaming
platforms to the essential business savvy needed to thrive in this
industry. We dive deep into the biggest misconceptions about what a
(01:29):
music supervisor really does. Trust us, it's so much more
than just playlisting all day, her creat process for matching music
to story, and why authenticity and relationships matter
more now than ever. And if you're an artist or a
songwriter looking to break into the world of sync, Jennifer offers practical
advice on how to get your business buttoned up, build meaningful
(01:51):
relationships, and stay true to your voice. Whether you're interested in the art
and business of music supervision, or just want to know how legendary sync
deals happen behind the scenes, this episode is packed with
invaluable wisdom for both music creators and filmmakers
alike. You won't want to miss a single moment. But first, a word
from our sponsor. Hey, insiders. Are you an aspiring musician,
(02:14):
artist, band, or future music business professional looking to take your
career to the next level? Well, look no further. At MUBU tv, we
offer personalized career counseling and coaching designed
specifically for folks like you. Imagine having both of us by your side,
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(02:35):
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(02:58):
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(03:20):
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So why wait? Don't let uncertainty hold you back. Join us for your free
15 minute discovery call at book
(03:41):
movutv.com for a transformative coaching experience
that will elevate your music career. That's
book.moobutv.com
hi, this is Dave Wallace, A and R from the Mushroom Group and Futures Music
Group. And you're listening to the Mooboo TV Music Business Insider
Podcast. Welcome back, insiders. Today's featured guest is music
(04:02):
supervisor Jennifer Smith. This was a fascinating conversation
E on a lot of levels. You know, first of all, her background
I thought was so interesting. She comes from a theater background, which really helps her
in her work in terms of identifying stories, structure, so
forth. One of the more interesting things that I thought she said, which really stuck
with me and hit me hard as an educator, you know, which I've been most
(04:23):
of my life, is she talked about lifelong learning. That that is
key. You know, the whole thing of continuously investing in your education
and understanding, you know, the changing industry that we are in today.
This is the whole purpose of Mooboo tv, you know, to educate and
empower artists. Today, the responsibility
of keeping abreast of the elements of your career, ladies and
(04:46):
gentlemen, is up to you. All the tools are there. This
isn't, you know, some business that's hidden behind some Byzantine wall and
you need $400 for a, you know, Billboard subscription. It's all available
to you, but you must commit to learning it. It
will come to you, but you must commit to learning. That's the number one thing
no. 1, and I know Eric, and I have said this to you many times,
(05:08):
no manager, no agent. No producer, no label is going to do it
for you. And I love that she emphasized that. Yeah, that was a great point.
Also, I thought one of the points, which, it's ironic because this is something that
I'm actually working on right now, actually using your directories,
Rich, with. With the film and TV music guide. I'm actually soliciting for sync agents
to represent my music catalog. And this is one of the points that she brought
(05:30):
up about how sync agents can help for newcomers. Working with sync agents
is a great way to get your music placed. They manage the relationships and
ensure you're ready for placements. And, you know, I don't have that kind of
time, as, you know, Rich, that I don't have that kind of time
to be dealing with that. So I rather let professionals that know that world. It's
like, you know, I don't become a plumber. I go and I hire a plumber
(05:52):
because I'm not a plumber. So why would I do that in the sync world?
Same concept here, but it's a great way to get broken into the industry.
And they know the ins and outs, and obviously your music will be cleared in
advance, so they know that when they're pitching it that it's already. Already free and
clear. So I think this is a great point for people that are just starting
out that feel if their catalog is strong enough for film and TV placements,
it's another avenue to get your music placed. Absolutely. And,
(06:15):
you know, you. You also bring up a really important point with this in
that you have to have all of your T, you. Know, dotted eyes,
dotted across T, cross T's. I mean, you know, what you bring up is. Is
actually that process of getting your music vetted in. In
a sense, and having all of those elements done. And that's a very, very important
component. And with that ins, relax and
(06:37):
enjoy our featured conversation. Coming to you live from Musexpo
2025 with Jennifer Smith. Jennifer,
welcome to the show. Hi. Thank you so much for having me. Thank
you so much for coming in and doing it, Jennifer. With the rise
of so many more outlets, streaming platforms,
and changes in how music is licensed for film and television,
(06:59):
from your perspective, how has the landscape of the music
supervision changed in recent years? What are you seeing?
You know, just like any craft, especially in entertainment, you have to be up
to date with technology and trends. If you kind of go from the
landscape of. Well, from 20 years ago, it was
XYZ, you'll never be successful in this industry.
(07:21):
And whether we like it or not technology is a big part of our industry,
whether it's in front of the camera, behind the camera, or even doing
music supervision, having to understand how these different things
work. So part of being in this industry is
understanding, not being so combative about what does this
mean? Yes, we do not like everything that's going on,
(07:44):
but we have to be up to date with what's going on and figure out
how to work together, whether you're working with licensors, whether you're
working with productions. So there's not really a good answer about how
to stay up to date. Just continuing your education and understanding how those different
projects work. For example, in a project I did recently,
we had to use some technology in order to create
(08:05):
content. Right. Not in the sense of generative AI, but more non generative
AI in order to do storytelling. But you have to be very
transparent with your licensors about how that's working.
Right. Because again, it's very scary. Technology is so scary.
We're doing technology right now, everyone.
So it's about being straightforward, being honest, and continuing your education
(08:28):
about that. Because this craft isn't going anywhere. But if
you have an old school mindset, even old school in the sense of
five years ago, you're not going to be successful moving forward.
Absolutely. I think that that's really an honest answer to that because I
think a lot of people are wrapped up well, this is the way it used
to be and, you know, 100%. So I think that's really great.
(08:50):
Jennifer, thank you so much for joining us on the show. I wanted to
ask you, you know, what are the most common misconceptions about
the role of a music supervisor? Oh, my gosh. I get this
question all the time and I feel like every music supervisor. So
I think one of the biggest misconceptions is I sit and
listen to music all day. I mean, I haven't done that since, you know,
(09:12):
I was a teenager in my room or middle school or
elementary or anything. So big misconception is that we
just playlist all day. Also, another misconception is
you don't have to to know the business behind this craft. Because if you don't
know the business, you can't be creative. If you're creative and
don't know the business, you can't do both. In the 90s, the
(09:33):
2000s, you could be 100% creative. But in the current
world we live in, with technology, how things are
distributed, all the different things, you have to know both. Right?
And a big misconception is we playlist, you don't have to know the business.
And also that you don't like music. Some people say, oh, music
supervisors don't like music. And I was like, say what? That was a new thing
(09:55):
I heard like six months ago. They're like, oh, they just like, do
research and just do like clearance. They're not creative. And I was like,
excuse me, you have to do both. Wow, that's an interesting
perception. That's. I mean, it's, it's so. It's obviously not from somebody
who's remotely aware of movies or
TV or how anything in production is done. Well, to be completely
(10:18):
honest, you know, production is such a collaborative process. Right. You're working with the
director, your showrunner, your advertising agency, your brand, your
video game people, all these different things that it is a collaborative. Right. A
common misconception also is that I'm the final decision maker.
I am part of a team that upholds a bigger vision. Yes. Right.
And I can put my creativity within that vision. But the end of the day,
(10:41):
it's about the vision creatively, as a team being
upheld by the person, whether it's the director, whether it's the
showrunner, whether it's the brand, whether it's, you know, whatever decision
makers are. And that's another misconception, that I'm the final decision
maker. No, but again, if you don't know the business, how can
I be part of that collaborative process if I'm like, here you go.
(11:03):
Yeah, no problem. This Pink Floyd song will clear in our budget. And indie film.
Yeah, because I listen to, to music and my dad's records all day, obviously. Right,
right. And then that doesn't help you do your job. And if anything, it hurts
your job. Yes, absolutely. You know, you've worked on
a wide range of projects from scripted series like why Women Kill
to documentaries like Black Barbie. How does your approach
(11:26):
to music supervision change depending on the medium? And are there
challenges in adapting your music choices to different storytelling formats?
Yes, actually. So in scripted television, we're dealing with
story, we're dealing with characters, we're dealing with environments, we're dealing with,
you know, a fake world that we're creating. We're creating a brand new world
that does not exist. Right. And when we're doing scripted
(11:49):
stuff, it's. You can be a little, a little more creative in
certain ways because it's not a real person, it's not a real
event, it's not a real anythings. Right. We're creating something
beautiful. In documentary, you're Dealing with real people, with real
stories, especially in Black Barbie, you had to be so careful because
someone is saying their truth. And with music, we have a responsibility, especially
(12:12):
in documentary, to let someone say their truth and
not try to change and create something that doesn't exist. And
sometimes, especially in documentary, having someone's truth means
let it breathe. No music, right? If someone is saying they're so
story and they're having a moment and they get emotional, I don't need emotional music
because that is a real person telling something versus a scripted thing.
(12:34):
Maybe an actor was having a bad day or the director
wasn't really getting what they needed, or it wasn't the right director for that project.
And the music needs to help the performance kind of tell that
emotion a little bit more versus a real person and their real truth.
So you really have to look at the story, the character, the environment,
the creativity. And what is the truth? We're trying
(12:57):
to say, is it from a character point of view? Is it from a real
person point of view? And you can't do them both the same way.
Got it? Okay, great. Jennifer, given your background
in theater, how does your understanding of narrative
structure and character development inform your music
supervision work in film and television? Do you approach these mediums
(13:18):
differently from a musical perspective? I always say one of
my superpowers is the fact I came from a theater background. Because in
theater, right, we are. We have one stage. We're creating
characters, stories, music, all these different things.
And also, let's be real. Theater is definitely on a budget,
right? Super bougie on a budget. Even Broadways are super bougie on a
(13:40):
budget. Let's be real. And you have to create these different things. You have to
be creative and scrappy and say, how can
one thing be three things right at the same time? And with
music, what are those things that it could be? So my theater
background really helps me figure out that stuff to also create
continuity. Because if you're an audience member in theater, you have to have that
(14:03):
continuity. It can't change because then you're changing the
story. So I look at that for TV and film. Well, as. As well.
In why Women Kill, we had a character, you know, Claire de
Lune, right? Everyone's like, oh, I know that song. I think I listened to
probably 300 versions to find the right version,
because it had to hit all the different character tones that were coming up through
(14:25):
the season that the character that the audience doesn't know yet, right? It had to
be able to bend in certain ways later down the road. I can't just be
like, I like this Clair de Lune for season, you know, for episode one and
for episode six, let's use this one. No, because the audience is creating
an emotional connection to that one recording. It's the same thing in
theater. Got it. Okay. No, that. That makes complete sense. And your
(14:46):
background, I guess, does give you that advantage. Advantage and
sensibility to really understanding that. Let me ask you, when
selecting music for your projects, beyond the creative,
what other factors are informing your musical choices for a project?
I have this. I feel like I need to make it T shirt that says,
get your business buttoned up. Right. So no shenanigans.
(15:06):
Least shenanigans as possible. Business being buttoned up is really
important from a creator side, a music creator side,
and also relationships. This entire business is on relationships
with the way, you know, the Internet is and how music you can put out.
Like, pretty much anyone can release music nowadays, and you don't need
an expensive studio, which is great from a technology perspective because
(15:29):
it's no longer an economic barrier for great talent that it was
before. However, if your business isn't buttoned up, I don't
want to work with you. Right. So this is a relationship business, and you really
have to do that. So if I have two great songs, Rich, you sent me
a song and some person, and both of them are great. But I know
your business is buttoned up. I'm going to use your song, right? I'm going to
(15:50):
be like, this is the song. This is the song. Maybe the other song might
be a little edgier, but I'm like, I don't know. In my gut,
I know it's the other song because there's no shenanigans. I gotta protect
my production. I gotta protect the vision. There's so many layers that go
into it. It's a level of trust. It is. This entire business is
relationships. Right. Everyone wants to work with the people that are honest, that are nice.
(16:12):
No one wants to work with mean people. I don't want to work with mean
people. You don't want to work with mean people. You also want to work with
people that are honest. And even if you're like, hey, Jen, I'm so sorry, that
song I sent you, turns out, has an ugly, cleared sample. I'm still gonna come
back to you because you were honest with me, but, you know,
just be honest. And those things do make a difference. The continuing
relationships. Yeah. It makes total sense. Absolutely.
(16:35):
Yeah. Jennifer, what are the best avenues that you recommend for
artists and songwriters to place music into film,
television and other visual media. Could
you describe what you mean by avenue that's so broad? What are
the best, you know, I guess places where you recommend that, you know,
artists and songwriters, you know, can place music. I mean, is there any
(16:57):
particular. I mean, do you, do you usually like to work directly with artists or
do you work with like music, libraries, things of that nature?
What are your preferences? So for me, again, I
mentioned business, right? Your business being buttoned up and this is a relationship
business is, you know, sync agents are a really good
way for artists to find that because they have pre existing
(17:19):
relationships. They can make sure your business is buttoned up if they have questions, which
then continues these different relationships. For me, I also have direct
relationships with writers and artists and sync agents and labels and
publishers and managers, you know, music managers and music agents. And
I've been in this business a very long time, so it's just,
I guess, my conversation database. But for me, especially if you're
(17:41):
just trying to break in the industry, be a human.
Please, please be a human and, you know, start to build a relationship
and maybe get your stuff together before you
do that initial reach out. You only get one first impression. So make sure you
put your best foot forward. Don't rush the process. And also, I
always say this. Just because you're not getting sync placements doesn't mean your
(18:03):
music's horrible because you can't dictate where the market
is, right? Maybe this year they greenlight all hip hop shows
and you don't do hip hop or you do hip hop and it's all rock
or you just never know. So stay to your
authentic voice and your truth and those opportunities
will come. Just stay your own course. Don't try to fit into someone
(18:25):
else's mold that you're not. Because as someone who listens to her own
music to pull, I always know when it's not your real authentic
voice. If you're like, I'm gonna write a song about home, but you know,
that's not your thing. I can hear the lyrics inauthentic. Your voice,
the production, it doesn't feel real. Music is a
storytelling mechanism. I use it to tell stories.
(18:47):
My story brings an audience to your music. My music brings an audience to
your story. Also, I want to be like, look what I did for that
artist. Like, I was able to put that song in that created, you know, a
fan base. And then they say had 100 people at their show. Then it goes
to 200, 300, you know, arenas like, how beautiful is that? But
when you give me something that's fake. Yeah, I'm not interested. Hey,
(19:09):
insiders, we hope that you've been enjoying our featured conversation.
Stay tuned because we've got so much value coming your way. But before we
dive back in, a word from our sponsor. Hey, Eric, as an artist,
what do you find are the most challenging aspects to a music
career, especially when you're starting out? Well, I think one of the first things is
just trying to get the direction of who you are as an artist, where you
(19:30):
want to go, where you want to be. And, you know, we've talked about it
on the show a lot. Who is your target audience? Who you are, who?
What do you stand for? What do you believe in? What do you think would
resonate with an audience? And so those are some of the things that I would
feel being a new artist. Obviously, what I know now is different because I know
these things, but for people that are out there, like our audience, that don't have
necessarily any direction to go would be the first things that I would start off
(19:53):
with. And having the songs incorporate
those elements that you're speaking of into it, that's so important
today. Yeah. And I think that's one of the reasons why we started MUBUTV and
why we started this new consulting service that we're offering to all of our
insiders out there. Because that is another one of the big things. I mean, that
is the big thing is like having the great songs. That's what it really starts
(20:14):
off. Our friend Don Grierson always said it always starts with a great song.
So that's probably. Besides putting together what your audience and
what your target audience is, is the single most important thing. Where are your
songs currently today? Are you collaborating with people? Are
you trying to go out to networking events where you can connect with other songwriters
and stuff like that? So, yeah. And what are your strengths exactly? You
(20:36):
know, are you a strong lyric writer? Are you a strong melody writer?
Are you a strong musician? A player. Right. You know, and it's really
important to get really strong clarity on those issues
before proceeding. I totally agree, Rich. And, you know, with our
consulting services, we offer a myriad of different packages that we've made
it super affordable for everybody. So, you know, if you guys are interested, interested out
(20:58):
there and connecting with us on a coaching call, you can visit
book.moobutv.com and start off with a free
15 minute discovery call. Well, yeah, absolutely, that. We start with an
initial 15 minute call where we can get a Sense of who you are. What
are the issues that you specifically have and want to work on.
Exactly. And we can go from there. Absolutely. Yeah. And we tailor everything
(21:20):
to your needs. It's not like a cookie cutter thing. We kind of really want
to get to know who you are as an artist. Where you at today? What's
the snapshot of you as an artist today? And then start trying to
craft something that's tailor made for you. So again, if you're interested, Visit
us at book.moobutv.com for your 15 minute
discovery call. Hi, this is Joe Zook, independent mixing engineer.
(21:41):
Are you an insider? I am. Subscribe now. Yeah, we always
talk about that on the show, about not being authentic and trying to write songs
for, you know, it's like, learn your wheelhouse and
do that. You know, stick with that. Yeah. And be committed to
that. Exactly. And also, I can hear in your vocal that it's not real
because guess what? I don't believe a word you're saying. Oops.
(22:03):
I can tell. Yeah. Very important,
that. And very few people talk about that level of credibility
where, you know, when you listen. I mean, I learned that many,
many years ago, the whole act of what they call critical listening,
where. And one of the things about vocals is, do you believe
that that person believes every word they're saying. And
(22:26):
there are some singers where it doesn't matter what they're singing, they're
completely committed to it. And you get that on a cellular level,
you get that they're committed. And then there's others that are just, you know, and
they can have great voices and still what you're talking about
reads through. You can hear it. It's not
authentic. It's not authentic. It's like me saying, I love you.
(22:48):
You might inform your voice. You know, it's. It's just like acting. It's
the same thing where you have to create a connection with your audience.
If you're a singer, it's musically and vocally to what's
around you. If it's an actor, it's, you know, many more things. And even with
a singer on stage, right, you go to a piano. Lady Gaga goes to piano.
Everyone's like, oh, my gosh, Right? She's not gonna, you know, have a
(23:10):
disconnect between something she says. Right, Precisely. You
know, you've worked on a lot of large productions like Dancing with the Stars
and independent projects like, you know, Uncharted. Do you
approach music supervision differently for big budget productions
versus small, you know, independent projects? And
if so, what are the opportunities and challenges that you face with each?
(23:33):
So big productions? A lot of people have this misconception, just because it's
a big production, it's easier. It's actually not because
every project has a schedule, has a budget. I don't
dictate the budget, y' all. I wish I did, because then I'd just be like,
this is great. I can just pay people. Amazingly. So some of
the challenges on a big budget is that people have this conception, like,
(23:55):
you must have so much money, but you have to allocate it a certain
way. So that's a little bit of a difficulty because people think you're lying.
When I'm like. Like, this. This is a big show. How do you not have,
you know, a zillion dollars or six figures for
this? And I'm like, I just don't. Right. And so it's
having to combat this kind of misconception and another misconception. Even if
(24:17):
you work on a big show that's on a network, that they think it's a
lot of money, or a small show on a network, it's a lot of money.
Every project's unique and different. On something that's more independent, you
really gotta be even smarter and scrappier.
And again, also, in independence, people think you're trying to
devalue music. I'm sorry, I only have a thousand
(24:38):
dollars. No, I am not trying to take advantage of you. I'm really
not. I wish I had more money, but it kind of. It is what it
is. And there's no such thing as, like, bad
placement if you're a small artist, even a big artist. I've worked with big
artists on small independent films that they love the story, they love, love the film,
they love the filmmaker, like Jen. I was like, really? I think you guys would
(24:59):
love this film in the scene. Just. Just listen to hear me out. Read the
script, right? And they're like, this is great. I'm sorry. I only have
few, you know, not that much money for what your songs normally have. And they're
like, it's okay. I believe in the bigger vision. And on the flip side,
smaller artists think I'm devaluing their music. That's not
true. Because guess what? I will come back when I have more money. Oh, I
(25:20):
remember this person, really, on so and so's first film, or it
was a really good film and it just didn't have a lot of money. Now
on their second, third, fourth film, we have a bigger budget. Hey, director,
do you remember on Our first film. These people really helped us out. And with
that music, I think we need to go to them first to see if they
have something that could work right. See if they have something you love
(25:42):
that could work right. We always pay it forward. Every music supervisor does
it. We have the, you know, every supervisor has our little list of people that
we call it the homie list of who helped us out or
who was really, you know, flexible. We really need to like pay it back
somehow. It might be next year, it might be five years from now, who knows?
But we always remember who works with us and we always come back.
(26:04):
Yeah. You know, it's so interesting hearing you speak about that. I remember
there was a British television
producer, small show out of England that got a
Taylor Swift, Sink, Sink and Master
all in one because she liked the show. She
charged them whatever they had, the thousand dollars or fifteen hundred dollars or
(26:26):
whatever, but she liked the show. I mean, you know, Jack Black
has that famous story in In School of Art where he tells, you know, how
they did the special letter or the special video
to Jimmy Page and they approved it, you
know, and they, you know, you can count on one hand how many times they've
allowed a Led Zeppelin song master to be used in a movie. And they
(26:47):
allowed it. Yeah, exactly. And it's also my job to know
maybe what writers, what artists might personally like this. Right. So I
might work on a film that deals with a certain subject. I know that artist
is a big advocate. They have a non profit that goes with those things. And
I'll say to the director, I have a curse crazy idea. I pitch my
idea and they say, jen, you're absolutely insane. I was like, I know, that's why
(27:08):
you hired me. Yeah. And then I go, and then I have a conversation with
the label, with management, with the publisher, do the pitch, do all that. And they're
like, no, I think this is a great, you know, a great opportunity for
them. Read the script, let's go from there. And you just never know. Yeah. You
know, one of the worst that happens is they say, unfortunately, we don't have
the time for this. This isn't something in alignment with us or, you know, we
(27:30):
just don't have time. Okay, thank you so much for your time. But I'll still
be back at another time. Yeah, precisely. You know, do you
remember the movie Forrest Gump? Of course. Okay. Forrest Gump has the very famous
story where. And it was in an era when, you know, music supervision was a
little different. Bob Zemeckis, who directed that movie held
countless screenings because of all the music he used.
(27:51):
And it was gonna. He didn't have. Even though it's a huge
budget, he did not have the kind of money for that. So he
held all of these special screenings for, like, you know, Jackson Brown
and Bruce Springsteen so that they could see the
context that he wanted to use their music
in. And he said in. In, like, 98 of
(28:13):
the cases it went through. The soundtrack was a double. Double,
double album. Whole different heroes. Yeah. And those
are iconic songs. And those are iconic. Well, exactly. Iconic. And they had to
go through a period of. From the 50s to the 80s.
So it was a lot of material. And he used classic stuff in
that movie. Exactly. But he got the permission because he took
(28:36):
the time to do what you're saying to build those relationships.
And that's a lot of work. To have a screening for Jackson Brown, a screening
for this one. Next week, I got to do two more. It's like, well, and
it's a lot of work on our time. And maybe I know every music
supervisor is different, but for me, I really lean into the
creative, and I love a puzzle. So, okay, we only have
(28:58):
this amount of money because it is an indie film, and the new world that
we're living in, how distribution works is different than even from five
years ago. And understanding what's the music side
point of view, what's the filmmaker side of you, and how do we make it
work in this creative vision where everyone feels valued and heard and understands
each other's plight? Jennifer, has the global nature
(29:19):
of film, and especially television, influenced your work as a music
supervisor with regards to your choices of music in terms
of catering to more culturally diverse audiences?
I think it just depends on the project. Right. I'm, again,
because of my theater background, how I look at story and. And characters and
era and all these things, or if it's a documentary, who's the people,
(29:43):
right? Where are they from? Where did they grow up? Like, I ask crazy
questions sometimes just to get an idea of a vibe of a real person or
I'll do research on them or all these things. And
I love the Internet. You know, I'm of that era, of the Limewire.
So, you know, you guys can start doing the math, right? I don't look it,
but I definitely am. I would have never guessed. I. I know. Good jeans
(30:05):
and sunscreen. And with the Internet and having
access to different things, you can really learn different things. And I also am
like, oh, because I'm a nerd. Who's this producer who's this songwriter. Who have
they worked with? I don't even know this person. They're from South Africa. That's cool.
You know, I've worked on projects where, okay, it takes place in Detroit.
So it's really important to understand what was the sound of Detroit in the 70s.
(30:27):
And I just go down a crazy rabbit hole or, you know,
those things are really important to me as a viewer. You may not know, but
I know. And it's very important to
kind of make sure the story is authentic in whatever voice. So
making sure it's culturally appropriate and also having those conversations. Some directors
say, jen, I just don't care. This is what I want in my vision. I
(30:49):
say, I hear you, I respect you. Let's do your creative
vision, right? I don't try to force my thing, but it is a push and
a pull. And that's why they hire me, is because I bring something to the
table and I uphold their vision. But also I will challenge them a little bit.
They're not gonna, you know, if they want someone who's like, yeah, everything is. Your
idea is great. I'm like, that's great. However, I have a weird idea.
(31:11):
Just like, just, just take it. Just take a listen real quick. Like, oh, that's
interesting. Thank you for sharing that. Or thank you for sharing it. It was interesting,
but I want to go back to my idea. I'm like, okay, sounds great. Moving
on on, right? Yeah, absolutely.
Let me ask you, Jennifer, throughout your life, have there been any books
or movies or documentaries that have been particularly
(31:33):
inspirational to you, professionally speaking, that you
can recommend to our audience? So
I would say just listening to music again, I'm older
than probably a lot of people upcoming, I mean, and a lot of
people, especially in the industry. And I didn't have
(31:53):
resources that exist like it does now. And it's amazing, these
different opportunities and resources and all this.
It didn't have it. So for me, I grew up watching a lot of film,
right? I'm an old Hollywood film watching gal. I've watched a
lot of movies. I love soundtracks, I love music. I grew up with
music before the Internet. So I used to go to a lot of shows. My
(32:14):
dad and I, I still go to concerts together. That's what we've always been doing.
I love going to record stores. Every time I travel, I go into the local
record store, whatever country or city, and I just go through things and I talk
to people. My favorite part is old school research. Right?
That's just who I am. I would say, what Inspired me
(32:35):
was watching movies like my mentor, Bonnie Greenberg. Hates that I tell this
story. My best friend Weddy changed my life as a
kid. Right, Right. I did it in the talent show. I
did say a little prayer for you at the talent show with my girlfriends. Right.
You know, famous sing, famous, famous
scene. You know, talk about theater and music being put together. Oh, my God. Yeah.
(32:56):
With a classic song. Exactly. Right. And for the
audience, don't read just the creative books, read the business books. Right. And
I know they can be a lot. Sometimes
they're a lot for me because I still read them and I still go to
panels. To this day, I go to CCC panels. Even though sometimes
I'm like, I don't know what anyone's talking about. I always am asking people, I'm
(33:17):
keeping my education up. Continue your education even as
you're working and have conversations with your colleagues. Right. Your fellow
music makers, your fellow supervisors, your fellow A and R people, your
whatever it is. Right. Continue those conversations. Don't be in a silo.
So I guess that'd be my advice from an educational point of view. There's a
zillion great books, but don't just read the creative books. Read
(33:41):
the business books. I read Billboard every morning. I read Music
Business Worldwide every morning. Right. Just to kind of get an
idea. I read Indiewire. You know, I read all those different things, and
it's just, I guess it's the modern newspaper drinking
coffee idea. Yeah, absolutely.
Rolling Stone. I read Variety, Hollywood
(34:03):
Reporter, you know, things that are with my craft, not just music.
Right. Music, business worldwide, all of it. Sticking with the
educational thread. As someone who teaches music supervision, how do you see
the next generation of music supervisors shaping the industry?
What, you know, skills or attributes do you think are becoming
increasingly important in this evolving field? I see with the next
(34:24):
generation that this is actually going to sound a little strange.
They're swinging back towards the other way, right? Where they
are asking a lot of critical questions as opposed to just saying, status
quo. Right? I grew up asking critical questions.
My students ask critical questions. They look at things from a different lens, a
different eye, and that's really great. Also,
(34:47):
they grew up with technology. Someone like me that's like,
okay, I'm going to watch a YouTube video to figure out how to use
something. You know, it's that classic. They just grew up, you know, they grew up
with a cell phone in their hands. Right. I didn't have a cell phone till
I was way older because it was a new technology back then. Right.
So the next Generation, I think, are going to be
(35:07):
changing different ways of critical thinking and also pushing back. We
are of a generation that did not put those boundaries in. Yes, I'm a
lot better now. But this next generation, what they're going to move the
industry in is advocating for themselves better,
not accepting being treated a certain way versus our generation
just grumbled about it but didn't do anything. So the next
(35:29):
generation, between technology, advocacy for themselves,
also the people around them, a little bit easier. And also
looking back, I mean, a lot of these students are really interested in how music
was created from the past. They're over the TikTok world, they're over the
fake production. Like they pick up an instrument is crazy. It's
wonderful. But just continuing with pushing the envelope in
(35:53):
those ways about taking care of themselves first, I think is really going to
help the industry and the craft overall for everyone around.
Jen, what is the best way for people to reach you? Is it through your
website, through your socials? How you can shoot me
DMs? I'm at Rat Dance Party. So, you know, I love
that name, by the way. Yeah. Or you can just, you know,
(36:15):
contact@ratdanceparty.com Again, I am a human, so don't take
it personally if it you never hear from me or you hear from me a
year later or something. I am a human. I have stuff going on. It's nothing
personal. Okay. We want to thank you so much for
taking the time to do this. This was really insightful and wonderful. Thank you
for having me. This was a lot of fun. Absolutely. It was a lot of
(36:37):
fun having you and enjoyed the conversation immensely. Thank you. I enjoyed it
as well. Thank you. Such great information.
Wow. I mean, you know, she talked about a lot of things that aren't
often spoken about in conversations like this. Nuanced things.
But, you know, things that are a lot of practical. Great advice.
Absolutely. Things that are very, very important. One of the things that I thought
(36:59):
she, you know, that she talked about, which is emphasized a lot
but it can't be emphasized enough, is the whole factor of, you know,
what elements beyond creat creative inform
her choices. And she talked about, you know, the business being buttoned up is
really important from a creator side. The entire business is built
on relationships she talked about. That is such an important thing. If you and
(37:21):
so many of our guests, if you recall, Eric, all the music supervisors that we've
talked about have spoken about, you know, what happens when something
is in a song that shouldn't be. It's not cleared,
you're on a dubbing state and it's. The whole process comes to
a halt. More importantly for you, ladies and gentlemen, listening, you know,
to all of our insiders, it destroys your relationships
(37:43):
forever. Right in that community. That's a very small community,
truthfully speaking. And you will be blacklisted if you pull
something like that, where you have, you know, a co writer that you didn't tell
them about, you have a sample that you didn't, you know. Clear. Clear,
Exactly. This kind of thing, it sounds maybe insignificant to say in a
sentence, but it's very, very, very important when you're talking about
(38:06):
placing music into film and television and representing it as your own. And
that's why I spoke about, started the episode about the whole
importance of maybe getting a sync agent involved because they will go through that
process of making sure everything is vetted. All the songwriters, anything that you have
to reveal will be done up front. So by the time they start pitching, they
know that that stuff is free and clear. And it's a great segue. What you
(38:27):
were talking about with your point, because I thought one of the things that she
came up was with, you know, what advice did she have for artists seeking sync
placements? And it was exactly what you just said. You only get one first
impression, so make sure you put your best foot forward. Just because you're not
getting sync placements doesn't mean that your music's horrible. Stay,
stay true to your authentic voice and your truth and those opportunities
(38:49):
will come. And it's. And it's a really, really important fact that she brought up.
Absolutely. And a lot of that comes down to Eric, as you well know, learning
your craft. Yeah. Being committed to what you're doing here. That's a very,
very important point. Remember, this is not just a job.
It's a career. It's a life. Hey, insiders, thanks so
much for tuning in to this episode. We really appreciate it. To get show
(39:11):
notes, links and everything that was mentioned during this interview, head on over
to our official website at
mubutv.com/podcast/shownotes. If you're enjoying the content and what
we're doing here on the show, please subscribe to the podcast on Apple
Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts from.
And don't forget to rate and review our show at iTunes. Five star
(39:33):
reviews are always welcome and help to ensure that our podcast stands
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handle mubutv, which is spelled M U B U T V.
Don't forget to catch our flagship show, the MUBUTV Music Business
(39:55):
Insider Video Series, airing every week on YouTube at
YouTube.com/@mubutv this
show was produced and created by Ritch Esra and Eric Knight, theme
music by Disciples of Babylon and be sure to tune in next week for another
episode of the MUBUTV Music Business Insider
Podcast.
On today's podcast, we're joined by acclaimed music supervisor Jennifer
Smith, the creative force behind projects like why Women Kill Black
Barbie and Dancing with the Stars. Jennifer takes us inside the evolving
landscape of music supervision, from the rise of streaming platforms to
navigating technology and trends that are changing the game. She also
shares the biggest misconceptions about the role, what it really takes to place your music
(00:22):
in film and tv, and reveals how her background in theater shapes
her approach to storytelling through sound. Whether you're an artist looking to break into
sync or simply fascinated by the business, this is an episode you
can't afford to miss. Insiders, are you ready?
Welcome to MUBUTV's Music Business Insider Podcast,
where our mission is to educate, empower and engage artists
(00:45):
and music business professionals who are dedicated to having a successful
career in the new music industry. Here are your hosts,
Ritch Esra and Eric Knight. Welcome back, insiders, to
another episode of the MUBUTV Music Business Insider
Podcast, where our mission is to educate, empower and engage
your music career. On today's episode, we sit down with the acclaimed music
(01:07):
supervisor Jennifer Smith, whose work spans from major scripted
series like why Women Kill to groundbreaking documentaries like
Black Barbie. Jennifer shares her insights into the ever changing landscape
of music supervision, from the impact of new technology and streaming
platforms to the essential business savvy needed to thrive in this
industry. We dive deep into the biggest misconceptions about what a
(01:29):
music supervisor really does. Trust us, it's so much more
than just playlisting all day, her creat process for matching music
to story, and why authenticity and relationships matter
more now than ever. And if you're an artist or a
songwriter looking to break into the world of sync, Jennifer offers practical
advice on how to get your business buttoned up, build meaningful
(01:51):
relationships, and stay true to your voice. Whether you're interested in the art
and business of music supervision, or just want to know how legendary sync
deals happen behind the scenes, this episode is packed with
invaluable wisdom for both music creators and filmmakers
alike. You won't want to miss a single moment. But first, a word
from our sponsor. Hey, insiders. Are you an aspiring musician,
(02:14):
artist, band, or future music business professional looking to take your
career to the next level? Well, look no further. At MUBU tv, we
offer personalized career counseling and coaching designed
specifically for folks like you. Imagine having both of us by your side,
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identifying your target audience, and enhancing your social media
presence, just to name a few. Whether you're just starting out or looking to
elevate your existing career, we've got you covered. Our comprehensive approach
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(03:20):
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So why wait? Don't let uncertainty hold you back. Join us for your free
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(03:41):
movutv.com for a transformative coaching experience
that will elevate your music career. That's
book.moobutv.com
hi, this is Dave Wallace, A and R from the Mushroom Group and Futures Music
Group. And you're listening to the Mooboo TV Music Business Insider
Podcast. Welcome back, insiders. Today's featured guest is music
(04:02):
supervisor Jennifer Smith. This was a fascinating conversation
E on a lot of levels. You know, first of all, her background
I thought was so interesting. She comes from a theater background, which really helps her
in her work in terms of identifying stories, structure, so
forth. One of the more interesting things that I thought she said, which really stuck
with me and hit me hard as an educator, you know, which I've been most
(04:23):
of my life, is she talked about lifelong learning. That that is
key. You know, the whole thing of continuously investing in your education
and understanding, you know, the changing industry that we are in today.
This is the whole purpose of Mooboo tv, you know, to educate and
empower artists. Today, the responsibility
of keeping abreast of the elements of your career, ladies and
(04:46):
gentlemen, is up to you. All the tools are there. This
isn't, you know, some business that's hidden behind some Byzantine wall and
you need $400 for a, you know, Billboard subscription. It's all available
to you, but you must commit to learning it. It
will come to you, but you must commit to learning. That's the number one thing
no. 1, and I know Eric, and I have said this to you many times,
(05:08):
no manager, no agent. No producer, no label is going to do it
for you. And I love that she emphasized that. Yeah, that was a great point.
Also, I thought one of the points, which, it's ironic because this is something that
I'm actually working on right now, actually using your directories,
Rich, with. With the film and TV music guide. I'm actually soliciting for sync agents
to represent my music catalog. And this is one of the points that she brought
(05:30):
up about how sync agents can help for newcomers. Working with sync agents
is a great way to get your music placed. They manage the relationships and
ensure you're ready for placements. And, you know, I don't have that kind of
time, as, you know, Rich, that I don't have that kind of time
to be dealing with that. So I rather let professionals that know that world. It's
like, you know, I don't become a plumber. I go and I hire a plumber
(05:52):
because I'm not a plumber. So why would I do that in the sync world?
Same concept here, but it's a great way to get broken into the industry.
And they know the ins and outs, and obviously your music will be cleared in
advance, so they know that when they're pitching it that it's already. Already free and
clear. So I think this is a great point for people that are just starting
out that feel if their catalog is strong enough for film and TV placements,
it's another avenue to get your music placed. Absolutely. And,
(06:15):
you know, you. You also bring up a really important point with this in
that you have to have all of your T, you. Know, dotted eyes,
dotted across T, cross T's. I mean, you know, what you bring up is. Is
actually that process of getting your music vetted in. In
a sense, and having all of those elements done. And that's a very, very important
component. And with that ins, relax and
(06:37):
enjoy our featured conversation. Coming to you live from Musexpo
2025 with Jennifer Smith. Jennifer,
welcome to the show. Hi. Thank you so much for having me. Thank
you so much for coming in and doing it, Jennifer. With the rise
of so many more outlets, streaming platforms,
and changes in how music is licensed for film and television,
(06:59):
from your perspective, how has the landscape of the music
supervision changed in recent years? What are you seeing?
You know, just like any craft, especially in entertainment, you have to be up
to date with technology and trends. If you kind of go from the
landscape of. Well, from 20 years ago, it was
XYZ, you'll never be successful in this industry.
(07:21):
And whether we like it or not technology is a big part of our industry,
whether it's in front of the camera, behind the camera, or even doing
music supervision, having to understand how these different things
work. So part of being in this industry is
understanding, not being so combative about what does this
mean? Yes, we do not like everything that's going on,
(07:44):
but we have to be up to date with what's going on and figure out
how to work together, whether you're working with licensors, whether you're
working with productions. So there's not really a good answer about how
to stay up to date. Just continuing your education and understanding how those different
projects work. For example, in a project I did recently,
we had to use some technology in order to create
(08:05):
content. Right. Not in the sense of generative AI, but more non generative
AI in order to do storytelling. But you have to be very
transparent with your licensors about how that's working.
Right. Because again, it's very scary. Technology is so scary.
We're doing technology right now, everyone.
So it's about being straightforward, being honest, and continuing your education
(08:28):
about that. Because this craft isn't going anywhere. But if
you have an old school mindset, even old school in the sense of
five years ago, you're not going to be successful moving forward.
Absolutely. I think that that's really an honest answer to that because I
think a lot of people are wrapped up well, this is the way it used
to be and, you know, 100%. So I think that's really great.
(08:50):
Jennifer, thank you so much for joining us on the show. I wanted to
ask you, you know, what are the most common misconceptions about
the role of a music supervisor? Oh, my gosh. I get this
question all the time and I feel like every music supervisor. So
I think one of the biggest misconceptions is I sit and
listen to music all day. I mean, I haven't done that since, you know,
(09:12):
I was a teenager in my room or middle school or
elementary or anything. So big misconception is that we
just playlist all day. Also, another misconception is
you don't have to to know the business behind this craft. Because if you don't
know the business, you can't be creative. If you're creative and
don't know the business, you can't do both. In the 90s, the
(09:33):
2000s, you could be 100% creative. But in the current
world we live in, with technology, how things are
distributed, all the different things, you have to know both. Right?
And a big misconception is we playlist, you don't have to know the business.
And also that you don't like music. Some people say, oh, music
supervisors don't like music. And I was like, say what? That was a new thing
(09:55):
I heard like six months ago. They're like, oh, they just like, do
research and just do like clearance. They're not creative. And I was like,
excuse me, you have to do both. Wow, that's an interesting
perception. That's. I mean, it's, it's so. It's obviously not from somebody
who's remotely aware of movies or
TV or how anything in production is done. Well, to be completely
(10:18):
honest, you know, production is such a collaborative process. Right. You're working with the
director, your showrunner, your advertising agency, your brand, your
video game people, all these different things that it is a collaborative. Right. A
common misconception also is that I'm the final decision maker.
I am part of a team that upholds a bigger vision. Yes. Right.
And I can put my creativity within that vision. But the end of the day,
(10:41):
it's about the vision creatively, as a team being
upheld by the person, whether it's the director, whether it's the
showrunner, whether it's the brand, whether it's, you know, whatever decision
makers are. And that's another misconception, that I'm the final decision
maker. No, but again, if you don't know the business, how can
I be part of that collaborative process if I'm like, here you go.
(11:03):
Yeah, no problem. This Pink Floyd song will clear in our budget. And indie film.
Yeah, because I listen to, to music and my dad's records all day, obviously. Right,
right. And then that doesn't help you do your job. And if anything, it hurts
your job. Yes, absolutely. You know, you've worked on
a wide range of projects from scripted series like why Women Kill
to documentaries like Black Barbie. How does your approach
(11:26):
to music supervision change depending on the medium? And are there
challenges in adapting your music choices to different storytelling formats?
Yes, actually. So in scripted television, we're dealing with
story, we're dealing with characters, we're dealing with environments, we're dealing with,
you know, a fake world that we're creating. We're creating a brand new world
that does not exist. Right. And when we're doing scripted
(11:49):
stuff, it's. You can be a little, a little more creative in
certain ways because it's not a real person, it's not a real
event, it's not a real anythings. Right. We're creating something
beautiful. In documentary, you're Dealing with real people, with real
stories, especially in Black Barbie, you had to be so careful because
someone is saying their truth. And with music, we have a responsibility, especially
(12:12):
in documentary, to let someone say their truth and
not try to change and create something that doesn't exist. And
sometimes, especially in documentary, having someone's truth means
let it breathe. No music, right? If someone is saying they're so
story and they're having a moment and they get emotional, I don't need emotional music
because that is a real person telling something versus a scripted thing.
(12:34):
Maybe an actor was having a bad day or the director
wasn't really getting what they needed, or it wasn't the right director for that project.
And the music needs to help the performance kind of tell that
emotion a little bit more versus a real person and their real truth.
So you really have to look at the story, the character, the environment,
the creativity. And what is the truth? We're trying
(12:57):
to say, is it from a character point of view? Is it from a real
person point of view? And you can't do them both the same way.
Got it? Okay, great. Jennifer, given your background
in theater, how does your understanding of narrative
structure and character development inform your music
supervision work in film and television? Do you approach these mediums
(13:18):
differently from a musical perspective? I always say one of
my superpowers is the fact I came from a theater background. Because in
theater, right, we are. We have one stage. We're creating
characters, stories, music, all these different things.
And also, let's be real. Theater is definitely on a budget,
right? Super bougie on a budget. Even Broadways are super bougie on a
(13:40):
budget. Let's be real. And you have to create these different things. You have to
be creative and scrappy and say, how can
one thing be three things right at the same time? And with
music, what are those things that it could be? So my theater
background really helps me figure out that stuff to also create
continuity. Because if you're an audience member in theater, you have to have that
(14:03):
continuity. It can't change because then you're changing the
story. So I look at that for TV and film. Well, as. As well.
In why Women Kill, we had a character, you know, Claire de
Lune, right? Everyone's like, oh, I know that song. I think I listened to
probably 300 versions to find the right version,
because it had to hit all the different character tones that were coming up through
(14:25):
the season that the character that the audience doesn't know yet, right? It had to
be able to bend in certain ways later down the road. I can't just be
like, I like this Clair de Lune for season, you know, for episode one and
for episode six, let's use this one. No, because the audience is creating
an emotional connection to that one recording. It's the same thing in
theater. Got it. Okay. No, that. That makes complete sense. And your
(14:46):
background, I guess, does give you that advantage. Advantage and
sensibility to really understanding that. Let me ask you, when
selecting music for your projects, beyond the creative,
what other factors are informing your musical choices for a project?
I have this. I feel like I need to make it T shirt that says,
get your business buttoned up. Right. So no shenanigans.
(15:06):
Least shenanigans as possible. Business being buttoned up is really
important from a creator side, a music creator side,
and also relationships. This entire business is on relationships
with the way, you know, the Internet is and how music you can put out.
Like, pretty much anyone can release music nowadays, and you don't need
an expensive studio, which is great from a technology perspective because
(15:29):
it's no longer an economic barrier for great talent that it was
before. However, if your business isn't buttoned up, I don't
want to work with you. Right. So this is a relationship business, and you really
have to do that. So if I have two great songs, Rich, you sent me
a song and some person, and both of them are great. But I know
your business is buttoned up. I'm going to use your song, right? I'm going to
(15:50):
be like, this is the song. This is the song. Maybe the other song might
be a little edgier, but I'm like, I don't know. In my gut,
I know it's the other song because there's no shenanigans. I gotta protect
my production. I gotta protect the vision. There's so many layers that go
into it. It's a level of trust. It is. This entire business is
relationships. Right. Everyone wants to work with the people that are honest, that are nice.
(16:12):
No one wants to work with mean people. I don't want to work with mean
people. You don't want to work with mean people. You also want to work with
people that are honest. And even if you're like, hey, Jen, I'm so sorry, that
song I sent you, turns out, has an ugly, cleared sample. I'm still gonna come
back to you because you were honest with me, but, you know,
just be honest. And those things do make a difference. The continuing
relationships. Yeah. It makes total sense. Absolutely.
(16:35):
Yeah. Jennifer, what are the best avenues that you recommend for
artists and songwriters to place music into film,
television and other visual media. Could
you describe what you mean by avenue that's so broad? What are
the best, you know, I guess places where you recommend that, you know,
artists and songwriters, you know, can place music. I mean, is there any
(16:57):
particular. I mean, do you, do you usually like to work directly with artists or
do you work with like music, libraries, things of that nature?
What are your preferences? So for me, again, I
mentioned business, right? Your business being buttoned up and this is a relationship
business is, you know, sync agents are a really good
way for artists to find that because they have pre existing
(17:19):
relationships. They can make sure your business is buttoned up if they have questions, which
then continues these different relationships. For me, I also have direct
relationships with writers and artists and sync agents and labels and
publishers and managers, you know, music managers and music agents. And
I've been in this business a very long time, so it's just,
I guess, my conversation database. But for me, especially if you're
(17:41):
just trying to break in the industry, be a human.
Please, please be a human and, you know, start to build a relationship
and maybe get your stuff together before you
do that initial reach out. You only get one first impression. So make sure you
put your best foot forward. Don't rush the process. And also, I
always say this. Just because you're not getting sync placements doesn't mean your
(18:03):
music's horrible because you can't dictate where the market
is, right? Maybe this year they greenlight all hip hop shows
and you don't do hip hop or you do hip hop and it's all rock
or you just never know. So stay to your
authentic voice and your truth and those opportunities
will come. Just stay your own course. Don't try to fit into someone
(18:25):
else's mold that you're not. Because as someone who listens to her own
music to pull, I always know when it's not your real authentic
voice. If you're like, I'm gonna write a song about home, but you know,
that's not your thing. I can hear the lyrics inauthentic. Your voice,
the production, it doesn't feel real. Music is a
storytelling mechanism. I use it to tell stories.
(18:47):
My story brings an audience to your music. My music brings an audience to
your story. Also, I want to be like, look what I did for that
artist. Like, I was able to put that song in that created, you know, a
fan base. And then they say had 100 people at their show. Then it goes
to 200, 300, you know, arenas like, how beautiful is that? But
when you give me something that's fake. Yeah, I'm not interested. Hey,
(19:09):
insiders, we hope that you've been enjoying our featured conversation.
Stay tuned because we've got so much value coming your way. But before we
dive back in, a word from our sponsor. Hey, Eric, as an artist,
what do you find are the most challenging aspects to a music
career, especially when you're starting out? Well, I think one of the first things is
just trying to get the direction of who you are as an artist, where you
(19:30):
want to go, where you want to be. And, you know, we've talked about it
on the show a lot. Who is your target audience? Who you are, who?
What do you stand for? What do you believe in? What do you think would
resonate with an audience? And so those are some of the things that I would
feel being a new artist. Obviously, what I know now is different because I know
these things, but for people that are out there, like our audience, that don't have
necessarily any direction to go would be the first things that I would start off
(19:53):
with. And having the songs incorporate
those elements that you're speaking of into it, that's so important
today. Yeah. And I think that's one of the reasons why we started MUBUTV and
why we started this new consulting service that we're offering to all of our
insiders out there. Because that is another one of the big things. I mean, that
is the big thing is like having the great songs. That's what it really starts
(20:14):
off. Our friend Don Grierson always said it always starts with a great song.
So that's probably. Besides putting together what your audience and
what your target audience is, is the single most important thing. Where are your
songs currently today? Are you collaborating with people? Are
you trying to go out to networking events where you can connect with other songwriters
and stuff like that? So, yeah. And what are your strengths exactly? You
(20:36):
know, are you a strong lyric writer? Are you a strong melody writer?
Are you a strong musician? A player. Right. You know, and it's really
important to get really strong clarity on those issues
before proceeding. I totally agree, Rich. And, you know, with our
consulting services, we offer a myriad of different packages that we've made
it super affordable for everybody. So, you know, if you guys are interested, interested out
(20:58):
there and connecting with us on a coaching call, you can visit
book.moobutv.com and start off with a free
15 minute discovery call. Well, yeah, absolutely, that. We start with an
initial 15 minute call where we can get a Sense of who you are. What
are the issues that you specifically have and want to work on.
Exactly. And we can go from there. Absolutely. Yeah. And we tailor everything
(21:20):
to your needs. It's not like a cookie cutter thing. We kind of really want
to get to know who you are as an artist. Where you at today? What's
the snapshot of you as an artist today? And then start trying to
craft something that's tailor made for you. So again, if you're interested, Visit
us at book.moobutv.com for your 15 minute
discovery call. Hi, this is Joe Zook, independent mixing engineer.
(21:41):
Are you an insider? I am. Subscribe now. Yeah, we always
talk about that on the show, about not being authentic and trying to write songs
for, you know, it's like, learn your wheelhouse and
do that. You know, stick with that. Yeah. And be committed to
that. Exactly. And also, I can hear in your vocal that it's not real
because guess what? I don't believe a word you're saying. Oops.
(22:03):
I can tell. Yeah. Very important,
that. And very few people talk about that level of credibility
where, you know, when you listen. I mean, I learned that many,
many years ago, the whole act of what they call critical listening,
where. And one of the things about vocals is, do you believe
that that person believes every word they're saying. And
(22:26):
there are some singers where it doesn't matter what they're singing, they're
completely committed to it. And you get that on a cellular level,
you get that they're committed. And then there's others that are just, you know, and
they can have great voices and still what you're talking about
reads through. You can hear it. It's not
authentic. It's not authentic. It's like me saying, I love you.
(22:48):
You might inform your voice. You know, it's. It's just like acting. It's
the same thing where you have to create a connection with your audience.
If you're a singer, it's musically and vocally to what's
around you. If it's an actor, it's, you know, many more things. And even with
a singer on stage, right, you go to a piano. Lady Gaga goes to piano.
Everyone's like, oh, my gosh, Right? She's not gonna, you know, have a
(23:10):
disconnect between something she says. Right, Precisely. You
know, you've worked on a lot of large productions like Dancing with the Stars
and independent projects like, you know, Uncharted. Do you
approach music supervision differently for big budget productions
versus small, you know, independent projects? And
if so, what are the opportunities and challenges that you face with each?
(23:33):
So big productions? A lot of people have this misconception, just because it's
a big production, it's easier. It's actually not because
every project has a schedule, has a budget. I don't
dictate the budget, y' all. I wish I did, because then I'd just be like,
this is great. I can just pay people. Amazingly. So some of
the challenges on a big budget is that people have this conception, like,
(23:55):
you must have so much money, but you have to allocate it a certain
way. So that's a little bit of a difficulty because people think you're lying.
When I'm like. Like, this. This is a big show. How do you not have,
you know, a zillion dollars or six figures for
this? And I'm like, I just don't. Right. And so it's
having to combat this kind of misconception and another misconception. Even if
(24:17):
you work on a big show that's on a network, that they think it's a
lot of money, or a small show on a network, it's a lot of money.
Every project's unique and different. On something that's more independent, you
really gotta be even smarter and scrappier.
And again, also, in independence, people think you're trying to
devalue music. I'm sorry, I only have a thousand
(24:38):
dollars. No, I am not trying to take advantage of you. I'm really
not. I wish I had more money, but it kind of. It is what it
is. And there's no such thing as, like, bad
placement if you're a small artist, even a big artist. I've worked with big
artists on small independent films that they love the story, they love, love the film,
they love the filmmaker, like Jen. I was like, really? I think you guys would
(24:59):
love this film in the scene. Just. Just listen to hear me out. Read the
script, right? And they're like, this is great. I'm sorry. I only have
few, you know, not that much money for what your songs normally have. And they're
like, it's okay. I believe in the bigger vision. And on the flip side,
smaller artists think I'm devaluing their music. That's not
true. Because guess what? I will come back when I have more money. Oh, I
(25:20):
remember this person, really, on so and so's first film, or it
was a really good film and it just didn't have a lot of money. Now
on their second, third, fourth film, we have a bigger budget. Hey, director,
do you remember on Our first film. These people really helped us out. And with
that music, I think we need to go to them first to see if they
have something that could work right. See if they have something you love
(25:42):
that could work right. We always pay it forward. Every music supervisor does
it. We have the, you know, every supervisor has our little list of people that
we call it the homie list of who helped us out or
who was really, you know, flexible. We really need to like pay it back
somehow. It might be next year, it might be five years from now, who knows?
But we always remember who works with us and we always come back.
(26:04):
Yeah. You know, it's so interesting hearing you speak about that. I remember
there was a British television
producer, small show out of England that got a
Taylor Swift, Sink, Sink and Master
all in one because she liked the show. She
charged them whatever they had, the thousand dollars or fifteen hundred dollars or
(26:26):
whatever, but she liked the show. I mean, you know, Jack Black
has that famous story in In School of Art where he tells, you know, how
they did the special letter or the special video
to Jimmy Page and they approved it, you
know, and they, you know, you can count on one hand how many times they've
allowed a Led Zeppelin song master to be used in a movie. And they
(26:47):
allowed it. Yeah, exactly. And it's also my job to know
maybe what writers, what artists might personally like this. Right. So I
might work on a film that deals with a certain subject. I know that artist
is a big advocate. They have a non profit that goes with those things. And
I'll say to the director, I have a curse crazy idea. I pitch my
idea and they say, jen, you're absolutely insane. I was like, I know, that's why
(27:08):
you hired me. Yeah. And then I go, and then I have a conversation with
the label, with management, with the publisher, do the pitch, do all that. And they're
like, no, I think this is a great, you know, a great opportunity for
them. Read the script, let's go from there. And you just never know. Yeah. You
know, one of the worst that happens is they say, unfortunately, we don't have
the time for this. This isn't something in alignment with us or, you know, we
(27:30):
just don't have time. Okay, thank you so much for your time. But I'll still
be back at another time. Yeah, precisely. You know, do you
remember the movie Forrest Gump? Of course. Okay. Forrest Gump has the very famous
story where. And it was in an era when, you know, music supervision was a
little different. Bob Zemeckis, who directed that movie held
countless screenings because of all the music he used.
(27:51):
And it was gonna. He didn't have. Even though it's a huge
budget, he did not have the kind of money for that. So he
held all of these special screenings for, like, you know, Jackson Brown
and Bruce Springsteen so that they could see the
context that he wanted to use their music
in. And he said in. In, like, 98 of
(28:13):
the cases it went through. The soundtrack was a double. Double,
double album. Whole different heroes. Yeah. And those
are iconic songs. And those are iconic. Well, exactly. Iconic. And they had to
go through a period of. From the 50s to the 80s.
So it was a lot of material. And he used classic stuff in
that movie. Exactly. But he got the permission because he took
(28:36):
the time to do what you're saying to build those relationships.
And that's a lot of work. To have a screening for Jackson Brown, a screening
for this one. Next week, I got to do two more. It's like, well, and
it's a lot of work on our time. And maybe I know every music
supervisor is different, but for me, I really lean into the
creative, and I love a puzzle. So, okay, we only have
(28:58):
this amount of money because it is an indie film, and the new world that
we're living in, how distribution works is different than even from five
years ago. And understanding what's the music side
point of view, what's the filmmaker side of you, and how do we make it
work in this creative vision where everyone feels valued and heard and understands
each other's plight? Jennifer, has the global nature
(29:19):
of film, and especially television, influenced your work as a music
supervisor with regards to your choices of music in terms
of catering to more culturally diverse audiences?
I think it just depends on the project. Right. I'm, again,
because of my theater background, how I look at story and. And characters and
era and all these things, or if it's a documentary, who's the people,
(29:43):
right? Where are they from? Where did they grow up? Like, I ask crazy
questions sometimes just to get an idea of a vibe of a real person or
I'll do research on them or all these things. And
I love the Internet. You know, I'm of that era, of the Limewire.
So, you know, you guys can start doing the math, right? I don't look it,
but I definitely am. I would have never guessed. I. I know. Good jeans
(30:05):
and sunscreen. And with the Internet and having
access to different things, you can really learn different things. And I also am
like, oh, because I'm a nerd. Who's this producer who's this songwriter. Who have
they worked with? I don't even know this person. They're from South Africa. That's cool.
You know, I've worked on projects where, okay, it takes place in Detroit.
So it's really important to understand what was the sound of Detroit in the 70s.
(30:27):
And I just go down a crazy rabbit hole or, you know,
those things are really important to me as a viewer. You may not know, but
I know. And it's very important to
kind of make sure the story is authentic in whatever voice. So
making sure it's culturally appropriate and also having those conversations. Some directors
say, jen, I just don't care. This is what I want in my vision. I
(30:49):
say, I hear you, I respect you. Let's do your creative
vision, right? I don't try to force my thing, but it is a push and
a pull. And that's why they hire me, is because I bring something to the
table and I uphold their vision. But also I will challenge them a little bit.
They're not gonna, you know, if they want someone who's like, yeah, everything is. Your
idea is great. I'm like, that's great. However, I have a weird idea.
(31:11):
Just like, just, just take it. Just take a listen real quick. Like, oh, that's
interesting. Thank you for sharing that. Or thank you for sharing it. It was interesting,
but I want to go back to my idea. I'm like, okay, sounds great. Moving
on on, right? Yeah, absolutely.
Let me ask you, Jennifer, throughout your life, have there been any books
or movies or documentaries that have been particularly
(31:33):
inspirational to you, professionally speaking, that you
can recommend to our audience? So
I would say just listening to music again, I'm older
than probably a lot of people upcoming, I mean, and a lot of
people, especially in the industry. And I didn't have
(31:53):
resources that exist like it does now. And it's amazing, these
different opportunities and resources and all this.
It didn't have it. So for me, I grew up watching a lot of film,
right? I'm an old Hollywood film watching gal. I've watched a
lot of movies. I love soundtracks, I love music. I grew up with
music before the Internet. So I used to go to a lot of shows. My
(32:14):
dad and I, I still go to concerts together. That's what we've always been doing.
I love going to record stores. Every time I travel, I go into the local
record store, whatever country or city, and I just go through things and I talk
to people. My favorite part is old school research. Right?
That's just who I am. I would say, what Inspired me
(32:35):
was watching movies like my mentor, Bonnie Greenberg. Hates that I tell this
story. My best friend Weddy changed my life as a
kid. Right, Right. I did it in the talent show. I
did say a little prayer for you at the talent show with my girlfriends. Right.
You know, famous sing, famous, famous
scene. You know, talk about theater and music being put together. Oh, my God. Yeah.
(32:56):
With a classic song. Exactly. Right. And for the
audience, don't read just the creative books, read the business books. Right. And
I know they can be a lot. Sometimes
they're a lot for me because I still read them and I still go to
panels. To this day, I go to CCC panels. Even though sometimes
I'm like, I don't know what anyone's talking about. I always am asking people, I'm
(33:17):
keeping my education up. Continue your education even as
you're working and have conversations with your colleagues. Right. Your fellow
music makers, your fellow supervisors, your fellow A and R people, your
whatever it is. Right. Continue those conversations. Don't be in a silo.
So I guess that'd be my advice from an educational point of view. There's a
zillion great books, but don't just read the creative books. Read
(33:41):
the business books. I read Billboard every morning. I read Music
Business Worldwide every morning. Right. Just to kind of get an
idea. I read Indiewire. You know, I read all those different things, and
it's just, I guess it's the modern newspaper drinking
coffee idea. Yeah, absolutely.
Rolling Stone. I read Variety, Hollywood
(34:03):
Reporter, you know, things that are with my craft, not just music.
Right. Music, business worldwide, all of it. Sticking with the
educational thread. As someone who teaches music supervision, how do you see
the next generation of music supervisors shaping the industry?
What, you know, skills or attributes do you think are becoming
increasingly important in this evolving field? I see with the next
(34:24):
generation that this is actually going to sound a little strange.
They're swinging back towards the other way, right? Where they
are asking a lot of critical questions as opposed to just saying, status
quo. Right? I grew up asking critical questions.
My students ask critical questions. They look at things from a different lens, a
different eye, and that's really great. Also,
(34:47):
they grew up with technology. Someone like me that's like,
okay, I'm going to watch a YouTube video to figure out how to use
something. You know, it's that classic. They just grew up, you know, they grew up
with a cell phone in their hands. Right. I didn't have a cell phone till
I was way older because it was a new technology back then. Right.
So the next Generation, I think, are going to be
(35:07):
changing different ways of critical thinking and also pushing back. We
are of a generation that did not put those boundaries in. Yes, I'm a
lot better now. But this next generation, what they're going to move the
industry in is advocating for themselves better,
not accepting being treated a certain way versus our generation
just grumbled about it but didn't do anything. So the next
(35:29):
generation, between technology, advocacy for themselves,
also the people around them, a little bit easier. And also
looking back, I mean, a lot of these students are really interested in how music
was created from the past. They're over the TikTok world, they're over the
fake production. Like they pick up an instrument is crazy. It's
wonderful. But just continuing with pushing the envelope in
(35:53):
those ways about taking care of themselves first, I think is really going to
help the industry and the craft overall for everyone around.
Jen, what is the best way for people to reach you? Is it through your
website, through your socials? How you can shoot me
DMs? I'm at Rat Dance Party. So, you know, I love
that name, by the way. Yeah. Or you can just, you know,
(36:15):
contact@ratdanceparty.com Again, I am a human, so don't take
it personally if it you never hear from me or you hear from me a
year later or something. I am a human. I have stuff going on. It's nothing
personal. Okay. We want to thank you so much for
taking the time to do this. This was really insightful and wonderful. Thank you
for having me. This was a lot of fun. Absolutely. It was a lot of
(36:37):
fun having you and enjoyed the conversation immensely. Thank you. I enjoyed it
as well. Thank you. Such great information.
Wow. I mean, you know, she talked about a lot of things that aren't
often spoken about in conversations like this. Nuanced things.
But, you know, things that are a lot of practical. Great advice.
Absolutely. Things that are very, very important. One of the things that I thought
(36:59):
she, you know, that she talked about, which is emphasized a lot
but it can't be emphasized enough, is the whole factor of, you know,
what elements beyond creat creative inform
her choices. And she talked about, you know, the business being buttoned up is
really important from a creator side. The entire business is built
on relationships she talked about. That is such an important thing. If you and
(37:21):
so many of our guests, if you recall, Eric, all the music supervisors that we've
talked about have spoken about, you know, what happens when something
is in a song that shouldn't be. It's not cleared,
you're on a dubbing state and it's. The whole process comes to
a halt. More importantly for you, ladies and gentlemen, listening, you know,
to all of our insiders, it destroys your relationships
(37:43):
forever. Right in that community. That's a very small community,
truthfully speaking. And you will be blacklisted if you pull
something like that, where you have, you know, a co writer that you didn't tell
them about, you have a sample that you didn't, you know. Clear. Clear,
Exactly. This kind of thing, it sounds maybe insignificant to say in a
sentence, but it's very, very, very important when you're talking about
(38:06):
placing music into film and television and representing it as your own. And
that's why I spoke about, started the episode about the whole
importance of maybe getting a sync agent involved because they will go through that
process of making sure everything is vetted. All the songwriters, anything that you have
to reveal will be done up front. So by the time they start pitching, they
know that that stuff is free and clear. And it's a great segue. What you
(38:27):
were talking about with your point, because I thought one of the things that she
came up was with, you know, what advice did she have for artists seeking sync
placements? And it was exactly what you just said. You only get one first
impression, so make sure you put your best foot forward. Just because you're not
getting sync placements doesn't mean that your music's horrible. Stay,
stay true to your authentic voice and your truth and those opportunities
(38:49):
will come. And it's. And it's a really, really important fact that she brought up.
Absolutely. And a lot of that comes down to Eric, as you well know, learning
your craft. Yeah. Being committed to what you're doing here. That's a very,
very important point. Remember, this is not just a job.
It's a career. It's a life. Hey, insiders, thanks so
much for tuning in to this episode. We really appreciate it. To get show
(39:11):
notes, links and everything that was mentioned during this interview, head on over
to our official website at
mubutv.com/podcast/shownotes. If you're enjoying the content and what
we're doing here on the show, please subscribe to the podcast on Apple
Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts from.
And don't forget to rate and review our show at iTunes. Five star
(39:33):
reviews are always welcome and help to ensure that our podcast stands
out on the top rated and and new and noteworthy charts on itunes
and our space. You can also find us at social media, at Facebook,
Instagram, TikTok and Twitter X, all ending with the
handle mubutv, which is spelled M U B U T V.
Don't forget to catch our flagship show, the MUBUTV Music Business
(39:55):
Insider Video Series, airing every week on YouTube at
YouTube.com/@mubutv this
show was produced and created by Ritch Esra and Eric Knight, theme
music by Disciples of Babylon and be sure to tune in next week for another
episode of the MUBUTV Music Business Insider
Podcast.
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