Why Music Journalism Will Never Be The Same!
In this episode, we go inside the rapidly changing world of music journalism with veteran journalist Mark Sutherland. Hear how the rise of digital media, AI, and the live music boom are shifting the power dynamics in the music industry. Mark shares firsthand insights on the collapse of traditional gatekeepers, the importance of adapting to new platforms, and why success for artists looks so different today. Whether you’re an artist, music pro, or industry enthusiast, this conversation is packed with must-know trends! 🎙️💡 #MusicJournalism #MusicIndustry #DigitalMedia
Our mission here at MUBUTV is to help independent artists and music business professionals of the future to educate, empower and engage their music career.
🎙️ Music Business Insider Podcast: https://www.mubutv.com/podcast
The Music Business Insider Podcast is a deep dive for listeners like you who want to educate, empower & engage their music career. We take you inside behind the scenes through a series of in-depth conversations with today’s leading experts in the Music Industry including A&R, Music Supervision, Artist Management, Marketing, Publicity, Touring, and much much more. You can find it by searching “Music Business Insider Podcast” on any podcast app or platform [ie: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, etc.].
📒 Show Notes and Resources 📒
LINK
⚡️What you'll learn in this episode⚡️
👉 The realities of surviving in music journalism’s new world
👉 How social media has changed the artist-audience relationship forever
👉 Why live music and catalog are redefining industry power
👉 and so much more...
Here are the ways to work with us here at MUBUTV:
⚡️Insiders! Secure Your Spot! Get expert music career coaching with Ritch & Eric. Book your 15-min discovery call now: Grab a spot! 👉 https://book.mubutv.com
⚡Insiders! Get Your FREE Music Supervisor Guide! Unlock pro tips and learn how to pitch Music Supervisors the right way. Don’t miss out! Download link below:
👉 https://link.mubutv.com/MSFreeGuide
Books mentioned:
📒 How (Not) to Run a Record Label - https://amzn.to/3G92kms
📒 I Was There: Dispatches from a Life in Rock and Roll by Alan Edwards
https://amzn.to/4ndwvJV
📒 How Music Works by David Byrne - https://amzn.to/4eacFuQ
🎧 Get Audible Free - Your favorite titles anywhere you go. Enjoy a free trial on us!
https://amzn.to/3RB2nu4
Podcast Credits
Produced by: Ritch Esra & Eric Knight
Editor: Eric Knight
Shownotes & Transcriptions: Rick Staffy
DISCLOSURE: Some product links are affiliate links which means if you buy something we'll receive a small commission.
Copyright © 2025 MUBUTV™ Media. All Rights Reserved
Veteran music journalist Mark Sutherland discusses the digital transformation of music journalism on the MUBUTV Music Business Insider Podcast. He shares how artists and j
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
On today's Podcast, we sit down with veteran music journalist Mark
Sutherland, a longtime observer of the industry who has seen it all, from
the days of the legendary NME and Melody Maker to the digital revolution of
Podcasts and social media. Mark breaks down how music journalism has
transformed over the last decade, why the gatekeepers of the past have disappeared,
and how artists and journalists are navigating this new, noisy
(00:21):
landscape. We dive into the biggest power shifts rocking the business today,
including the rise of AI, the live music boom, and why success
for artists now looks completely different than ever before. Whether you're
an aspiring journalist or an industry insider, this conversation is packed
with insights you won't hear anywhere else. Insiders,
are you ready? Welcome
(00:43):
to MUBUTV's Music Business Insider Podcast, where our
mission is to educate, empower and engage artists and music
business professionals who are dedicated to having a successful career in
the new music industry. Here are your hosts, Ritch Esra
and Eric Knight. Welcome back, insiders, to another
episode of the MUBUTV Music Business Insider
(01:05):
Podcast, where our mission is to educate, empower and
engage your music career. On today's episode, we're
excited to welcome veteran journalist Mark Sutherland, a leading
voice in music journalism whose career spans the iconic
eras of the NME, Melody Maker, Music Week,
and beyond. Mark joins us for an unfiltered deep
(01:27):
dive into the radical transformations rocking music journalism
and the wider music industry. We discuss how the rise of
digital media and social platforms has democratized music
coverage and why that means everyone's a critic, but fewer
gates and gatekeepers mean it's harder than ever to
break through the noise. Mark shares insight on how artists and
(01:49):
journalists can still build meaningful connections despite
shrinking access, why print still matters, but
adaptation matters more, and the biggest
misconceptions about the music business that just
won't go away. We'll also hear why his groundbreaking
Podcast the Money Trench was created, how AI
(02:09):
catalog and live music are shifting the power base,
and what painstaking truths journalists face while maintaining
industry relationships. If you're curious about where the
stories behind the hits originate, or how tomorrow's music business will
be documented, this is one interview you don't want want to miss.
But first, a word from our sponsor. Hey, insiders, are you an
(02:32):
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(04:00):
book1.motv.com for a transformative coaching
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mo tv.com hi, this is.
Kim Frankiewicz, executive vice president of Worldwide
A&R from Concord Music Publishing, and you're listening to
the MUBU TV Music Business Insider Podcast.
(04:23):
Welcome back, insiders. Today's featured guest is none other than Mark
Sutherland, a renowned music journalist whose work I have
admired for more years than I have known him. Got to know
him, you know, basically through MUSEXPO, as he's been attending
for almost as many years as I have. This was a very, very interesting
conversation, Eric, for many reasons. Number one, it's our very, very
(04:45):
first music journalist that we've ever had on the show.
And this is a very, very interesting area, especially for people like you and
I who are voracious readers. Right. You know, and
journalism is something that, you know, we have seen basically over the
years, contract and more than contract
lose its impact right. In the marketplace. And, you
(05:06):
know, he brought up so many interesting points about that literal
transformation that has happened on so many levels. And
one of the most interesting that I thought that he had was, you know, he
talked about the important role that journalists play. But
more significant to me was how he spoke about how artists now
have direct communications and can speak directly to their audience
(05:28):
via social media. That's the. The dynamic that they never had before. Right? We
always had to read whether it was Rolling Stone or
Musician to get that perspective. That's how they got
to us, you. Know, and that's how those walls crumbled, those gatekeepers
crumbled. Exactly. And that was a very sick. And. And so therefore
what you just said transformed the whole role
(05:51):
of artists and journalists in terms of their impact
and the place that they had within an artist community. Yeah.
And one of the other areas that I thought was very important that he,
that we discussed in our conversation was redefining success.
And you know, you've talked about this rich many times and you know, and he's
mentioned, you know, that success is more fragmented now. There are multiple
(06:12):
pathways. Live streaming, social media, which we just discussed, that
may not align or follow the old chart topping model. And
so, you know, it's very interesting to see how these
cultural and musical changes have really affected the
way that information is disseminated, which is what Mark's job is
doing. Yeah, exactly. And I think it goes right to the heart of the point
(06:34):
we were making, which is that what you just said is so important and
how that shows up in the culture is artists being able to have
the connection with their audience. That's why they have the fragmented
success. That's why someone like a Russ can do
two sold out nights at the Hollywood bowl. And my students,
20 students in my class, only nine of them even know or have ever
(06:57):
heard of him. Right. And yet he's doing two nights sold out at an
18,900 seat venue. That's right to the heart of your point.
And that's the world that we live in today. So success is
completely being redefined. It's not just those three of big
hit records, big album sales or big ticket sales. It's now something much
more significant. Can you reach an audience and are you reaching an audience?
(07:19):
That's how defining success is today. Absolutely. And with that,
insiders sit back, relax and enjoy our featured conversation.
Live from News Expo 2025 with Mark Sutherland.
Mark, welcome, welcome. Good to be here.
Absolutely. It's great to have you on the show. I want to begin, you know,
as a veteran journalist, how has the landscape of music
(07:41):
journalism evolved over the past decade and what are some of the key
trends that you've observed in the music industry? Well, I mean,
music journalism is a very different place to where it was 10 years ago. Never
mind when I started back in the Jurassic era,
as I'm a veteran. But yeah, I think it's. If you're
talking about writing about bands, interviewing bands and stuff like that,
(08:04):
the landscape is completely different because the big
Platforms that we used to have, certainly in the uk, things like NME,
Q, you know, they're just not. They're not what they used to be,
so it's much harder to break through. And I think music is a bit of
a poorer place for not having, certainly the UK music press. I know the
US is a bit different, but, you know, it used to drive a lot of
(08:25):
music discovery, those magazines, and it's a shame we don't have them
anymore, but of course, then again, when you think about music and
the music industry, the way people listen to music has completely changed
since the introduction of digital music, streaming particular.
So I guess it's. It makes sense in a way that journalism
also has to change. So there's other ways of doing things. Now here
(08:48):
we are on a Podcast. Yeah. And, you know, to your point, which is
interesting, is that journalism, I think, has changed
in that we don't have the Q magazines or the enemies with their
impact anymore, but we have so many more people doing
journalism. You know, the online element, the digital element, the,
you know, that. Which was only available to the few, now available to the many.
(09:10):
You know, it's. I'm fine of always saying the good news for artists is
that we don't have any gatekeepers, but the bad news, we don't have any gates.
Well, that's a. That's a good line, which I will be stealing,
but it's true. But it goes to your point of, you know, it's. The big
things have gone away, but what's taken its place? Yes, well,
everyone's a critic, as they say, and literally now everyone is a critic. You
(09:33):
know, when, when I was working for NME and Melody maker in the 90s, when
you wrote about music, I mean, most people reading it wouldn't
have heard that music and maybe couldn't have heard it. I mean, you'd tune
into a radio station or MTV or whatever, hoping that they might
play that record so you could hear what it sounded like, but most of the
time they didn't, certainly in the alternative sphere. So you had to kind of take
(09:55):
a journalist's word on trust. I know that's a crazy concept to you, people
listening in 2025, but. But people did do it in the 90s, whereas
now, you know, we don't have that sort of improved access. I
mean, sure, you might get to hear a record before it's released, but probably only
a week before it's released, and you probably won't be able to run your review
until it actually comes out anyway. So you know, the public can access that
(10:17):
music, they've got their own opinion on it. Which is not to say
a music journalist can't bring an awful lot of value to that because
hopefully you're an expert and hopefully you can write a bit better than the
average person firing up Twitter. But, you know, they
don't need you. That's the point. That's not the only way to find out about
music. There's a zillion platforms and
(10:38):
people are quite happy to use that. So journalists have to adapt.
You know, we've all done that to varying degrees of success, but
that's the new paradigm. It's not to say it's pointless, but it's definitely not what
it used to be. Mark, thank you so much for joining us on the show.
It's a real pleasure to have you. I wanted to ask you, how can
traditional music journalism adapt to remain
(11:00):
relevant in today's digital dominated era? You were touching on it a little
bit. You've just got to go to where the audience is. I mean, this is
what everyone's been, this is what the music business has been through, you know, so
journalism is no different really. So, you know, I love,
I love print, I love magazines, I love newspapers and I always
will. But there's no point just sort of plugging away with that in
(11:21):
the Hope that today's 18 year olds are suddenly going to discover it, because
they probably aren't. So you have to do different things to reach them. And
whether that's social media or obviously online is a big thing, or
Podcast, you know, I do my own Podcast now, Money trench. And
you've just got to access people where they are in the format they want
and the people that do that well are still relevant, I
(11:43):
guess. But you know, it's a shame because I still think there's
a lot of value in a print product that you don't find in some of
these new formats. But, but equally, there's no point banging your
head against the wall when, when the other. Where there's no
one around to listen. So you've just got to, you've just got to adapt and
move on. And you guys do a great job of that. I mean.
(12:05):
Yeah, well, hopefully. I mean, yeah, I mean, I mainly write about the industry now.
So I write for music business worldwide and Variety and they've both
got, you know, very impressive digital operations. They're still in
print, they still do stuff in print and it's, and it's really good. But
you know, we're not, we're not Just sort of blindly pursuing that
while ignoring the other channels. And that is, that is the way you have to
(12:27):
go. You know, with the rise, you've, you've been talking
about this. With the rise of social media influencers, user
generated content. My question mark is, has the relationship
between artists and music journalists changed
and what challenges does this present to you? Well, it
has changed in that again, back in, back in the day,
(12:50):
bands, artists, whatever they needed, they needed the media
to reach their fans. Now you don't really need the media to reach their fans.
You can go on Instagram and tell your fans whatever you want. But that
is not to say that that's necessarily the best way of delivering
whatever your message may be. If it's just my new records out, go
streaming, yeah, maybe that's fine. But if you want to add context and
(13:12):
explain a bit more about your art, there's other formats that are better. And that's
where journalist comes in. That's where you can still have a great relationship between
a journalist and a band. You know, there are plenty of
examples of that out there and plenty of times I've done that. And in that
respect it hasn't really changed, you know, to the 90s where
they were banned. Soon know you would write about and
(13:33):
you'd have a good relationship with. You still get that now. It's just the difference
is now you're probably not the only way for them to communicate and that's
fine. You know, it's probably a good thing if you're a band because there's,
back in the day, there's nothing worse than if your band was not
approved by the gatekeepers you were mentioning earlier. Then, you know, it was
very difficult to get anywhere. So now at least you've got some other options. But
(13:56):
equally there are still, you know, journalists who will do a great job of putting
your message across. And it's the same in the industry. You know, I do it
obviously I mainly do industry journalism these days, not
exclusively. But you know, again, there's a lot of
interesting companies out there, interesting executives doing interesting things.
And while they may have a big following on social media, equally they may
(14:18):
want a more nuanced, you know, well executed
journalistic piece to explain what they're doing. You know,
it's interesting hearing you talk about that because my question on that
is, do you find that the artist pieces that you may want
to do, you know, when you were talking about back in the day, I mean,
Jan Wenner, head of Rolling Stone, used to talk about like when he did A
(14:38):
cover story or had a cover story assigned, they would spend
three, four days over with, with an artist.
Now everything seems to be so controlled. You
know, you've got 30 minutes, you've got an hour and that's it. Do you
find that that's a case now because you have a reference point
from what it was to what it is now? That's not always the case. Yeah.
(15:00):
Okay. In the 90s you would, you know, you'd go on the road with a
band and you'd be with them for certainly several
days, maybe up to a week. Right. You'd be on the bus with them, you'd
be on the plane with them, you know, you'd be having breakfast with them. So
you had incredible access and could deliver a
real insightful story. Hopefully. Yeah, maybe not in
(15:21):
my case, but better journalists than me would deliver a real insightful,
insightful account of what was going on. But now,
I mean, it's very rare to get that now. And quite often,
even for a big story on a big magazine sometimes, yeah, you've got
45 minutes in a soulless boardroom. Yeah.
And you know, you have to try and build that rapport really quickly. And
(15:45):
obviously you're not going to get so much color to go in the story because
there's only so much color in a soulless boardroom. And you know,
you can, you can work magic with that if you're a good journalist. But equally,
I'm not sure that's as people think that's better for their
artist. But I would say most of the time it actually
isn't. Because unless you're artist in, you know,
(16:07):
somebody that you need to keep under wraps and not talking to the press,
then they will probably give a better account of themselves over a longer period
of time with somebody that they've got to know at least a little bit than
they will trotting out sort of pre prepared answers in a
boardroom. So the music industry too often doesn't see it that way, but
that's, you know, that's what we have to try and get around as journalists, I
(16:29):
guess. You know, Mark, last year you and Mike Walsh launched a new
and Podcast called the Money Trench, which dives into the
week's biggest music business stories and the various executives within
it. What was the inspiration for starting that? Well, we'd been talking
about it for a really long time, actually it took us ages to get it
together with one thing and another. But partly what we've
(16:51):
just been talking about really is that, you know, obviously I write for a lot
of publications. But it felt like in the Podcast world
and like a, a lot of people, I got into Podcasts during COVID when you
have more time on your hands and you know, you wanted something a bit more
intimate to listen to on your state sanctioned walk around
the park. So. But we felt in the music industry obviously there's
(17:12):
a lot of good Podcasts, your one included. Oh, thank you so much. But
we wanted one that sort of came from the UK and you
knew what you were getting from it. So it came out, came out every week
at the same time, same length, every time had
a format. You know, Mike's a big radio guy so he really
knows how to, to work a format like that. And yeah, we
(17:34):
just thought there's a lot of good people in the music industry who maybe don't
have that kind of long form platform anymore to
get their personality across and their ideas across. And yeah, and it's just
a good excuse to hang out and tell some music industry war stories,
to be honest with you. So that's always, that's always fun. But that's where,
you know, this is, this is the, I think one of
(17:56):
the great elements of, you know, how history and, and
so forth is going to be preserved, if you will, is through
those kinds of stories. You know, I think people will be studying these
Podcasts and you know, books and documentaries and stuff
for years to come when, when the people have, you know,
gone and, you know, they're no longer with us. So it's a
(18:18):
great document for that. We may not have the great, you know, in 10 page
interview in Rolling Stone anymore, but we have actually their words and,
you know, conversation with you. So there is something very valuable in that,
I think. Yeah. And it's relatively unfiltered and I think I'm sure you
guys on the Podcast as well, but it's a good format for
getting people to say things that. Perhaps they don't normally would. They don't
(18:41):
normally say, you know, so hopefully they're a bit more relaxed. Hopefully. I
mean, I have a lot of people on the Podcast that I know quite well,
but some I don't know at all. But always I feel like
I learn something about them. So hopefully other people do too.
And often in the music industry we don't look at that. We'll concentrate on,
you know, the stats or how many hit records are they behind and, you
(19:02):
know, what's their profit margin or whatever. You know,
there's some good, there's some good people in the music industry. So
it's nice to look at that as well sometimes. Hey, insiders, we hope that you've
been enjoying our featured conversation. Stay tuned because we've got so
much value coming your way. But before we dive back in, a word from
our sponsor. Hey, Eric, as an artist, what do you find are the most challenging
(19:24):
aspects to a music career, especially when you're starting out?
Well, I think one of the first things is just trying to get the direction
of who you are as an artist, where you want to go, where you want
to be. And, you know, we've talked about it on the show a lot. Who
is your target audience, who you are, who, what do you stand for?
What do you believe in? What do you think would resonate with an audience? And
so those are some of the things that I would feel being a new artist.
(19:47):
Obviously, what I know now is different because I know these things, but for people
that are out there, like our audience, that don't have necessarily any direction
to go, would be the first things that I would start off with. And having
the songs incorporate those elements that you're speaking
of into it, that's so important today. Yeah. And I think that's one of the
reasons why we started Moobu TV and why we started this new consulting service that
(20:09):
we're offering to all of our insiders out there. Because that is another one of
the big things. I mean, that is the big thing is like having the great
songs. That's what it really starts off. Our friend Don Grierson always said
it always starts with a great song. So that's probably. Besides putting
together what your audience and what your target audience is, is the single
most important thing. Where are your songs at currently today? Are you
(20:30):
collaborating with people? Are you trying to go out to networking events where you
can connect with other songwriters and stuff like that? So, yeah. And what are your
strengths exactly? You know, are you a strong lyric writer?
Are you a strong melody writer? Are you a strong musician? A player.
Right. You know, and it's really important to get really strong clarity
on those issues before proceeding. I totally agree, Ritch. And, you
(20:53):
know, with our consulting services, we offer a myriad of different packages
that we've made it super affordable for everybody. So, you know, if you guys are
interested out there and connecting with us on a coaching call, you can visit
book.moobutv.com and start off with a free
15 minute discovery call. Well, yeah, absolutely, that. We start with an
initial 15 minute call where we can get a sense of who you are. What
(21:15):
are the issues that you specifically have and want to work on.
Exactly. And we can go from there. Absolutely, yeah. And we tailor everything
to your needs. It's not like a cookie cutter thing. We kind of really want
to get to know who you are as an artist. Where you at today, what's
the snapshot of you as an artist today? And then start trying to
craft something that's tailor made for you. So again, if you're interested, Visit
(21:36):
us at book.moobootv.com for your 15 minute
discovery call. Hi, this is Jennifer Smith, music supervisor at Rat
Dance Party. Are you an insider? I am. Subscribe now,
absolutely. I mean, I would say probably most people that we've done
since we've started this, we don't know. Right. Very few. I
mean, you know, we did Clive Davis last year. Now, I knew him
(21:59):
because I worked with him. But you did Clive Davis. Yes, but
just let me pick that name up off the floor. No, I'd use it as
an example of just 99 of the people. We don't know.
Right. We don't know. But, but it is true. What Mark is pointing
out is that it's a great opportunity to go deep dive with somebody that you
know and you. Like you said, they open up more, they tend to be more
(22:20):
relaxed and you get things that you wouldn't normally get. I mean, John,
John Columbus Perfect was a perfect example. We did a
deep dive with him two hours. And it's an
incredible interview. I mean, I wasn't anticipating
it. I hadn't seen John in like 20 something years and
ran into him in the lobby of my dentist's
(22:41):
office. Literally some of the best networking.
Yes. And he was, you know, oh my God, rich. And I was like. And
called him up and asked. And then what we discovered, what Eric and I discovered
when we got him was he had not done an
interview in 12 years. He had turned them all down
because they all wanted like, you know, dirt on
(23:04):
bands and, and, you know, were negative and so forth.
So, you know, we had nothing but respect for him. So we did a whole
A through. Z of his career and he ended up revealing a lot
of things that we never really want to. If you know of John, you should
listen to that interview. He'd love it. Really deep dive. That sounds good. Don't make
me talk for two hours though. I'm not, I'm not interested in.
(23:26):
Well, let me ask you the money Trench takes a critical yet
celebratory approach to dissecting the music industry.
From your perspective, Mark, what are the biggest misconceptions about the
business that persists today. The thing about the music
industry, and part of the reason why I wanted to do the Podcast, I guess,
in the newsletter, is that a lot of people that cover the music industry hate
(23:47):
the music industry. Right. You know, I mean, yes, or maybe they don't hate it,
but they certainly. They're very critical. They have issues with the music industry. Now,
that's not to say I don't have music issues with some of the specific things
within the music industry, some of the crazy stuff the industry does, but I
like the music industry. I think it's generally, yes, as we do too, a
force for good. You know, the people in it are good. You know, we wouldn't
(24:08):
have all this great music without the industry behind it a lot of the time.
So I think, you know, that's probably the biggest misconception is
that people still think that the music industry
is run by. It's probably like a cartoon in the 70s of some
guy with a ponytail and a big cigar, you know, ripping off
artists and stuff. And yeah, I'm sure that stuff certainly happened in the past
(24:30):
and maybe it still happens now. But generally the people that I
meet in the music industry are good people, passionate
about artists and music and want to do the best for them. So I think
that's the, that's the image problem the music industry has,
and I don't think it's particularly fair. And I don't suppose
my Podcast, or even your Podcast is going to change that perception
(24:52):
totally, but, you know, you can put some stuff out there and hopefully, hopefully it
helps people along the way. How do you strike the
right balance between exposing hard truths and maintaining
relationships with, with the industry, key players. And have you ever faced
any pushback for covering a particular topic? Oh, yeah. I mean,
not so much on the Podcast, but certainly in my career in the past, you
(25:14):
know, I worked for, I edited Music Week for five years and
which is the UK trade publication. I worked at Billboard for a
long time. Obviously I do stuff for MBW and Variety. And yeah, there's,
there's sometimes there is somebody who doesn't want you to write whatever you
want to write about it. I'm not too good with pushback, to be honest, so
10 to do it anyway. But, you know, you always want to be fair. You
(25:37):
don't want to. You don't want to stitch somebody up. But sometimes
you do have to tell the truth. And generally, in my experience,
people, they might not think they want that, but they do actually prefer
it because you know, there's no point as a trade publication,
whatever you are, there's no point just telling people what they want to hear. Right?
You've got to tell them what they need to know. And that's, that's the difference.
(25:59):
So it's, it's easy to think, you know, oh, well,
this, this big company in the music industry doesn't want us to write this, so.
So we shouldn't. But that's a slippery slope. You know, once you go down that,
once you go down that road, it's hard. It's hard to come back. So I
guess I'm quite lucky. And I grew up in the, you know,
journalistic wise in the 90s when, you know, certainly on NME
(26:21):
and places like that, we were encouraged to write pretty much what we like. You
know, there was obviously legal checks and balances, but not too much, not
too many other restrictions. And, you know, I've carried definitely some
of that attitude forward, I think while, you know, hopefully
you just get the balance right and do the right thing while
hopefully not pissing too many people off because you have
(26:44):
still got to work with them. You know, generally people get over it, I find.
You know, I would imagine you've gained a lot of insight from
these conversations that you're talking about with many people,
especially on, you know, your Podcast, the Money Trench. And
I'm curious from, from your perspective, Mark, and you've been at this, as
we've learned for, for a long time, what are the,
(27:07):
what you would see are the biggest power shifts that are occurring in the
music industry today? What are the things you're seeing,
I guess, as a result of these conversations? Are there any things that are sort
of coming to mind about wasn't interesting how this is happening or how
that is happening based on that? Yeah, I mean, there's a few, there's a few
big shifts going on. I think potentially this is quite a
(27:30):
transformative time for the music industry. I mean, we've sadly,
I'm old enough to remember a few of those big shifts, but this, this
could be one. I don't know if it will be, but if you look at
the way the change in role of the labels, particularly the major labels and
where they're concentrating their efforts, and you're seeing the
shift from new music to catalog music, you know, dominating a lot
(27:51):
of listening, obviously AI is coming in. I
mean, it feels almost cliche to talk about AI and the
music industry now because, you know, everybody's talking about it and we don't know where
that's going to go. But it could. There could be some good things about it.
It could potentially be disastrous. And you can talk to
10 different people in the music industry and get 10 different views. So
(28:13):
there's a lot going on. Live music is so much more important than
perhaps it used to be and maybe is more important than recording music to
certainly a lot of artists in the space. So, yeah,
there's loads going on. But this is the brilliant thing about the music industry and
covering the music industry is that, you know, in however
many years I've been doing this, I can't ever remember a time when you go,
(28:35):
that's a bit boring, isn't it? It's all there, it's all the same. Not much
going on. You know, it's just. It's never like that. It's always. It will
always be changing, will always feel like it's on the cusp of something
either terrible or amazing. Sometimes it is and sometimes,
you know, things don't go the way you expect. But that's what keeps it interesting.
Yeah, but. But the changes you're talking about are seismic and they're
(28:58):
also changes that are more profound in the sense of. That they're
not just affecting the music industry. AI is
affecting every aspect of our lives, culturally, politically,
socially, technologically, medically. It's not just
going to be a thing on, you know, helping us to write a lyric or
melody or song or production. It's. It's going to impact a lot
(29:19):
of other areas as well. So I think that's what makes these changes that
you're speaking about so significant and important. What
you said about live, that's crucial because you probably know him,
the gentleman, he's British, who runs APA or who owned
it, the artist Performing agency, English Gentleman,
he sold it to Wasserman, major agent, has been around
(29:41):
forever. He said here a couple years ago, one of the most interesting
things is I've been an agent for over 50 years and I have
never ever had a roster of artists
on my company who don't have record deals, who
are viable in the touring world now, that's
quite significant, who are not signed. And he said, and
(30:03):
they're both veterans and new people, which is quite
interesting. Yeah, there's been points in the music industry
history, I guess, where you could say there's two music industries at this point. There's
probably about six. You know, I think in a way you need to
read it, define success because we're still hung up on charts
and, and things like that. And, you know, I love It, I love a chart,
(30:25):
don't get me wrong. And it's a useful, useful measurement still, but it's
not the only one. And there are, there are artists that do amazing
business live who, you know, and then you look at the streaming figures and there's
nothing there. You look at, there are artists who on social media would appear to
be massive and then they can barely sell a ticket, you know, so it's,
it's an interesting business like that. And I think the days where you could
(30:48):
empirically sit there and say, well, this is the biggest artist in the world,
you know, if they haven't gone already, they're certainly numbered already.
You've got Taylor Swift, I guess he's the biggest number in the world. But below
Taylor Swift, you know, there's a lot of contenders in different areas.
So yeah, it's interesting. Very. Speaking
of redefining, Mark, from your vantage point, with the rise of
(31:10):
so many varied independent artists breaking through in non traditional ways,
do you think that we are redefining what success means today?
Well, as I, yeah, as I was just saying, I guess there's different ways of
looking at it and the, the idea that you kind of have to sign
to a big label to make it now, I mean, if you want to be
Taylor Swift, you maybe need to have a big label involved, but certainly to,
(31:32):
to have success at some pretty high levels
below that, it's not so necessary anymore. You can put your own music out,
you know, you can distribute it, you can market it yourself
on social media. The areas where you need to
touch the music industry have shrunk. But that's not to say
that people in those areas can't still help. So it's, I think
(31:55):
the, the thing is, if there ever was a time where
you could just go, well, we'll press all these buttons and you'll make it. That's
long gone, you know, so you've got to, you've got to try all the, all
the different buttons out there and every combination of them and you might never
get there. But equally, you know, if it goes your way, you might do
people criticize TikTok and I get that. But the beauty
(32:18):
of TikTok is that anybody from anywhere,
from any era can just take off on it overnight and
suddenly you got a hit on you. Now that's, these days, that's
only a tiny part of the process and that's where the work
starts. But you know, we didn't, we didn't have that back in the day. So
if you're an Artist, whether you've just started or whether you've been around
(32:39):
for 20 years, that's probably nice to know. At least that's a
possibility. Yeah, absolutely. Let me ask you
from your perspective, Mark, are artists more
educated about their career, career and the business
aspects of their careers today than they were in previous eras,
in your mind, generally speaking? Yes. Yeah. I mean, back in
(33:01):
the day, you'd get the odd person who was all across the business side of
things, but the default position was definitely not that. It
was, you know, well, talk to my manager about that. I don't. I don't
care. I'm a. I'm a rock star. You know, today you still get a few
people like that. And you know what? I love meeting the people like that nowadays
because rare. They're keeping it alive in many respects.
(33:23):
But more often I would say, you know, people at least have a
decent awareness of the fundamentals of the business and they're very wise
to. Because, you know, if you know the basics, then it's
much harder for somebody to rip you off. So
it makes a lot of sense. And there are some people who, you
know, know an awful lot about the music industry, know it inside out, know
(33:45):
more than somebody like me does. You know, often those people are very successful.
Taylor Swift, Ed Sheeran, people like that. They are across the business in a
way that you would never have met anybody in the 90s who was playing music
that would have known that stuff. But I think they learned that over time.
Yeah, I mean, you know, Taylor Swift has been in this for 17 years. But
she's been very savvy from the beginning. Yeah, very savvy, very knowledgeable. And
(34:08):
Ed Sheeran began his career, what, 10, 12 years ago, so it's been.
Yeah, but you've got to have a. I guess you've got to be
predisposed to it in a way. So. But I. I think any.
Any artist starting out now who doesn't at least get
scripts with the basics would be doing themselves a
disservice. And, you know, often you will meet a really new band and they won't
(34:30):
have a record deal, they won't have a publishing deal, they maybe don't have a
manager, but they've probably got a lawyer. You know, quite often
that's the first people these. These artists get. And, you know, fair, fair
play to them because as long as that's a lawyer you can trust, that's probably.
Yeah, that's probably going to pay you. It's probably going to pay you back further
down the Line. So. Right, yeah. Mark, throughout your
(34:52):
life, what books, films or documentaries have you found to be
particularly inspirational to you, professionally speaking, that you could share with our audience?
Wow, that's a, that's a big question. Well, about the music business,
you mean? Yeah. Or anything that's influenced you, that's influenced you personally
from a journalism standpoint? Anything, you know. Yeah, I mean,
I'm not a huge reader of books, but I do like a music industry
(35:15):
book. So what have I read recently? I've read Simon Williams, who runs
Fierce Panda, has done a great book called how not to
Run a Record Label, I think it's called. That's a really inspirational
read. I used to share a flat with Simon back in the day, so. And
you know, so I know him. But it was really enlightening book
and I read a really good one called I Was There by Alan Edwards, who's
(35:37):
a legendary PR in London, has done PR for most of the
biggest artists of all time. And that's really good fun as well,
documentary wise. I mean, it's. We're in a golden age for
music documentaries. It used to be quite a rare thing to do and now it
feels like there's so many out there I can't even, I can't even keep up.
But it's good because I think, you know, in many
(35:59):
ways music wasn't taken so seriously as some of the other art
forms, particularly the smaller stories. Yeah, you'd always get something about
the superstars of the age. But it's always nice to see a
documentary by somebody who perhaps didn't get all the props
that they deserved at the time. And now pick it up if you're going to,
if you're going to watch one, there's not really one. The thing I just talked
(36:21):
about, there's a hilarious Bros Documentary. Did you have Brock Bros.
In America? They were like this boy band. I remember, I remember them
right. Okay. It's called after the Screaming Stops or something like that.
And it's, it's, it's sort of really funny. I'm really sad. At the same time,
it's a very cautionary tale for anybody who wants to get into the music industry.
He went on to be a record executive. One of the members, one of the.
(36:43):
Craig Logan. Yeah, he was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's very successful in the
music industry. But the two brothers are still
making music to varying degrees. But it's worth
checking out. I'm sure it's available in America somewhere. Okay,
definitely. We'll definitely put that in the show. Notes, definitely. Mark, what
advice do you have for those who are interested in a career
(37:06):
in music journalism? Don't do it.
Don't do it. It's a terrible life. No, I'm joking. I mean, it's.
The thing I would say is that if you're going to do it nowadays,
you've got to really commit to it. You know what I mean? You've got to
really want to do it. Back when I started, it
(37:26):
was a really hard gig to get into in that nobody could. There was no
formal paths into it. Nobody could tell you how to do it. It was very
frustrating. Nowadays they've got courses in music journalism,
intern programs and all these. All these other things. But
paradoxically, it's much harder to actually make a living
writing about music. So I think if you're. Most of
(37:48):
the young music journalists that I meet out at gigs and stuff like that, they're,
you know, they've all got day jobs. None of them are. I was. I was
very lucky once I got some work on the NME. That was pretty much
what I did, you know. So now that's
not a lucky. Actually too many people have until much later in their career. So
if you're going to do it, obviously it's fantastic life. You get to see loads
(38:08):
of gigs, you get to hang out with rock stars, you get free beers.
Fewer free beers than you used to in my day, but you still get a
few. So. But you've got to. You've got to really think, this is the life
for me and I'm going to commit to it. And the fact that I'm not
going to earn any money for a long time, you know, just.
You're going to have to get over that or find a way around it or
(38:30):
hopefully eventually we'll invent a new
paradigm where we can make money out of music journalism again, because it's. It's
not easy at the moment, but, you know, stick. Stick at it, I think
would be the short form of that advice. Okay,
Mark, we want to thank you so much for doing this. We really, really
appreciate it very much. It's my pleasure. Great. I'm glad we finally got to do
(38:52):
it. I am, too. Absolutely. Yes. And actually, you're. I think you're our first
journalist. You are our first journalist. That's the reason why we wanted to have
you. Yeah. All the others said no. I
was at the bottom of a very long list. And
I. I guess, you know, final question being what's the best way for people to
reach you? Is it through your Website through the money Trench. Through socials. Go
(39:14):
to themoneytrench.com. you'll find our socials on there. There's an email as
well. Give us, give us a shout out. Beautiful. Somebody will get back to
you. Okay, great. Thank you so much. Cheers.
Wow. I am so glad that we had. This conversation
finally after all these times we were trying to get Mark. He finally
did it. Finally. Yeah, we were sick. He was sick. He didn't make it.
(39:37):
We. I screwed up and, and, and, and messed the time up
for him before. So now he's finally here and we were able to have this
conversation and it's our first. Yes. With the Music Journal. With the first. With our
music. And, and probably, you know, one of the Premiere. Premiere. What, What a.
With. Yeah, exactly. And this was a great conversation on many levels. I mean,
Mark has really been someone who's been at the forefront of music
(39:58):
journalism for, you know, close to, if not more than 30 years.
Right. You know, in the UK and really understanding the
changing role of music journalism because he's been on the forefront and on the
front lines of it. And he talked about so many interesting things in this conversation.
I mean, you know, one of the biggest ones I thought, for me that was
the most interesting was when he spoke about industry power shifts.
(40:21):
You know, I think he said there's a few big, big shifts on the change
in the role of the labels, the shift from new music to
catalog music, dominating. Obviously, he said, AI is
coming in. Live music is so much more important than perhaps it used to
be. And there is. And that's, that's a significant thing for our audience
to hear live music. Like, you know, I hear, and I
(40:43):
hear this often that, you know, artists don't want to perform or they don't want
to get into that aspect of, like, having to book shows, having to
perform. Right. I think if that's your consciousness and
that's your feeling of it, you're going to have a very, very, very
limited career. Much more narrow. Much more
narrow. And it's going to be very difficult for you to find an
(41:04):
audience. Because I think today, you know, one of the
distinctions in a world where music is free is how well can you
build an audience. And it's like trying to have a relationship with
someone who's never there. Right. And if you can connect with an artist
live, and you know this, Eric, because you've spoken about it before, you know, when
you connect with an artist live, you will always be a fan of that artist.
(41:26):
Yeah, you will always. They will always have a career, the more they can do
that. Even artists that don't have records, even artists that don't have hits anymore
at all. And we see this from people that are, you know, touring
massively in arenas and stadiums, who haven't put out records or
had hits in decades, but they still have a devoted audience.
And him talking about that, I thought was a very interesting observation about
(41:48):
2025. Also, one of the other areas, Ritch, that I, that I love
that he discussed was on adapting to new platforms. And you know, and I quote
from Mark, you've just got to go to where the audience is,
whether that's social media or obviously online is a big thing or
a Podcast. You just got to access people where they are and what format
that they want. And I think that goes to the point of what you're mentioning,
(42:11):
besides of what people are consuming, media wise, which I think he's
discussing in this particular comment. But also you have to go to
where your audience is and that's finding out who your target
audience is. What wheelhouse do you fall under and where
do you go and find that audience? Where are they congregating?
Yeah, and we talk a lot about that in the whole artist element
(42:33):
when you're building an audience. Those very factors that you just mentioned, you
know, like how social media is not a generic term.
Right. You know, Facebook is not Instagram, Instagram is not Twitter. It's all
very distinct. And finding that audience is a very, very important
element. Especially today when we have infinite choice, it's
absolutely crucial. Hey insiders, thanks so much for tuning
(42:56):
into this episode. We really appreciate it. To get show notes,
links and everything that was mentioned during this interview, head on over to our Official
website at
mubutv.com/podcast/shownotes. If you're
enjoying the content and what we're doing here on the show, please subscribe the
Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen
(43:16):
to Podcasts from. And don't forget to rate and review our show at iTunes.
Five star reviews are always welcome and help to ensure that our
Podcast stands out on the top rated and new and noteworthy charts
on itunes and our space. You can also find us at social media
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all ending with the handle MUBUTV which is spelled m u b
(43:38):
u t v. Don't forget to catch our flagship show, the MUBUTV
Music Business Insider Video series series airing every week on
YouTube at
youtube.com/MUBUTV. This show was produced and created
by Ritch Esra and Eric Knight theme music by Disciples of
Babylon. And be sure to tune in next week for another episode of the
(43:58):
MUBUTV Music Business Insider Podcast.
On today's Podcast, we sit down with veteran music journalist Mark
Sutherland, a longtime observer of the industry who has seen it all, from
the days of the legendary NME and Melody Maker to the digital revolution of
Podcasts and social media. Mark breaks down how music journalism has
transformed over the last decade, why the gatekeepers of the past have disappeared,
and how artists and journalists are navigating this new, noisy
(00:21):
landscape. We dive into the biggest power shifts rocking the business today,
including the rise of AI, the live music boom, and why success
for artists now looks completely different than ever before. Whether you're
an aspiring journalist or an industry insider, this conversation is packed
with insights you won't hear anywhere else. Insiders,
are you ready? Welcome
(00:43):
to MUBUTV's Music Business Insider Podcast, where our
mission is to educate, empower and engage artists and music
business professionals who are dedicated to having a successful career in
the new music industry. Here are your hosts, Ritch Esra
and Eric Knight. Welcome back, insiders, to another
episode of the MUBUTV Music Business Insider
(01:05):
Podcast, where our mission is to educate, empower and
engage your music career. On today's episode, we're
excited to welcome veteran journalist Mark Sutherland, a leading
voice in music journalism whose career spans the iconic
eras of the NME, Melody Maker, Music Week,
and beyond. Mark joins us for an unfiltered deep
(01:27):
dive into the radical transformations rocking music journalism
and the wider music industry. We discuss how the rise of
digital media and social platforms has democratized music
coverage and why that means everyone's a critic, but fewer
gates and gatekeepers mean it's harder than ever to
break through the noise. Mark shares insight on how artists and
(01:49):
journalists can still build meaningful connections despite
shrinking access, why print still matters, but
adaptation matters more, and the biggest
misconceptions about the music business that just
won't go away. We'll also hear why his groundbreaking
Podcast the Money Trench was created, how AI
(02:09):
catalog and live music are shifting the power base,
and what painstaking truths journalists face while maintaining
industry relationships. If you're curious about where the
stories behind the hits originate, or how tomorrow's music business will
be documented, this is one interview you don't want want to miss.
But first, a word from our sponsor. Hey, insiders, are you an
(02:32):
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mo tv.com hi, this is.
Kim Frankiewicz, executive vice president of Worldwide
A&R from Concord Music Publishing, and you're listening to
the MUBU TV Music Business Insider Podcast.
(04:23):
Welcome back, insiders. Today's featured guest is none other than Mark
Sutherland, a renowned music journalist whose work I have
admired for more years than I have known him. Got to know
him, you know, basically through MUSEXPO, as he's been attending
for almost as many years as I have. This was a very, very interesting
conversation, Eric, for many reasons. Number one, it's our very, very
(04:45):
first music journalist that we've ever had on the show.
And this is a very, very interesting area, especially for people like you and
I who are voracious readers. Right. You know, and
journalism is something that, you know, we have seen basically over the
years, contract and more than contract
lose its impact right. In the marketplace. And, you
(05:06):
know, he brought up so many interesting points about that literal
transformation that has happened on so many levels. And
one of the most interesting that I thought that he had was, you know, he
talked about the important role that journalists play. But
more significant to me was how he spoke about how artists now
have direct communications and can speak directly to their audience
(05:28):
via social media. That's the. The dynamic that they never had before. Right? We
always had to read whether it was Rolling Stone or
Musician to get that perspective. That's how they got
to us, you. Know, and that's how those walls crumbled, those gatekeepers
crumbled. Exactly. And that was a very sick. And. And so therefore
what you just said transformed the whole role
(05:51):
of artists and journalists in terms of their impact
and the place that they had within an artist community. Yeah.
And one of the other areas that I thought was very important that he,
that we discussed in our conversation was redefining success.
And you know, you've talked about this rich many times and you know, and he's
mentioned, you know, that success is more fragmented now. There are multiple
(06:12):
pathways. Live streaming, social media, which we just discussed, that
may not align or follow the old chart topping model. And
so, you know, it's very interesting to see how these
cultural and musical changes have really affected the
way that information is disseminated, which is what Mark's job is
doing. Yeah, exactly. And I think it goes right to the heart of the point
(06:34):
we were making, which is that what you just said is so important and
how that shows up in the culture is artists being able to have
the connection with their audience. That's why they have the fragmented
success. That's why someone like a Russ can do
two sold out nights at the Hollywood bowl. And my students,
20 students in my class, only nine of them even know or have ever
(06:57):
heard of him. Right. And yet he's doing two nights sold out at an
18,900 seat venue. That's right to the heart of your point.
And that's the world that we live in today. So success is
completely being redefined. It's not just those three of big
hit records, big album sales or big ticket sales. It's now something much
more significant. Can you reach an audience and are you reaching an audience?
(07:19):
That's how defining success is today. Absolutely. And with that,
insiders sit back, relax and enjoy our featured conversation.
Live from News Expo 2025 with Mark Sutherland.
Mark, welcome, welcome. Good to be here.
Absolutely. It's great to have you on the show. I want to begin, you know,
as a veteran journalist, how has the landscape of music
(07:41):
journalism evolved over the past decade and what are some of the key
trends that you've observed in the music industry? Well, I mean,
music journalism is a very different place to where it was 10 years ago. Never
mind when I started back in the Jurassic era,
as I'm a veteran. But yeah, I think it's. If you're
talking about writing about bands, interviewing bands and stuff like that,
(08:04):
the landscape is completely different because the big
Platforms that we used to have, certainly in the uk, things like NME,
Q, you know, they're just not. They're not what they used to be,
so it's much harder to break through. And I think music is a bit of
a poorer place for not having, certainly the UK music press. I know the
US is a bit different, but, you know, it used to drive a lot of
(08:25):
music discovery, those magazines, and it's a shame we don't have them
anymore, but of course, then again, when you think about music and
the music industry, the way people listen to music has completely changed
since the introduction of digital music, streaming particular.
So I guess it's. It makes sense in a way that journalism
also has to change. So there's other ways of doing things. Now here
(08:48):
we are on a Podcast. Yeah. And, you know, to your point, which is
interesting, is that journalism, I think, has changed
in that we don't have the Q magazines or the enemies with their
impact anymore, but we have so many more people doing
journalism. You know, the online element, the digital element, the,
you know, that. Which was only available to the few, now available to the many.
(09:10):
You know, it's. I'm fine of always saying the good news for artists is
that we don't have any gatekeepers, but the bad news, we don't have any gates.
Well, that's a. That's a good line, which I will be stealing,
but it's true. But it goes to your point of, you know, it's. The big
things have gone away, but what's taken its place? Yes, well,
everyone's a critic, as they say, and literally now everyone is a critic. You
(09:33):
know, when, when I was working for NME and Melody maker in the 90s, when
you wrote about music, I mean, most people reading it wouldn't
have heard that music and maybe couldn't have heard it. I mean, you'd tune
into a radio station or MTV or whatever, hoping that they might
play that record so you could hear what it sounded like, but most of the
time they didn't, certainly in the alternative sphere. So you had to kind of take
(09:55):
a journalist's word on trust. I know that's a crazy concept to you, people
listening in 2025, but. But people did do it in the 90s, whereas
now, you know, we don't have that sort of improved access. I
mean, sure, you might get to hear a record before it's released, but probably only
a week before it's released, and you probably won't be able to run your review
until it actually comes out anyway. So you know, the public can access that
(10:17):
music, they've got their own opinion on it. Which is not to say
a music journalist can't bring an awful lot of value to that because
hopefully you're an expert and hopefully you can write a bit better than the
average person firing up Twitter. But, you know, they
don't need you. That's the point. That's not the only way to find out about
music. There's a zillion platforms and
(10:38):
people are quite happy to use that. So journalists have to adapt.
You know, we've all done that to varying degrees of success, but
that's the new paradigm. It's not to say it's pointless, but it's definitely not what
it used to be. Mark, thank you so much for joining us on the show.
It's a real pleasure to have you. I wanted to ask you, how can
traditional music journalism adapt to remain
(11:00):
relevant in today's digital dominated era? You were touching on it a little
bit. You've just got to go to where the audience is. I mean, this is
what everyone's been, this is what the music business has been through, you know, so
journalism is no different really. So, you know, I love,
I love print, I love magazines, I love newspapers and I always
will. But there's no point just sort of plugging away with that in
(11:21):
the Hope that today's 18 year olds are suddenly going to discover it, because
they probably aren't. So you have to do different things to reach them. And
whether that's social media or obviously online is a big thing, or
Podcast, you know, I do my own Podcast now, Money trench. And
you've just got to access people where they are in the format they want
and the people that do that well are still relevant, I
(11:43):
guess. But you know, it's a shame because I still think there's
a lot of value in a print product that you don't find in some of
these new formats. But, but equally, there's no point banging your
head against the wall when, when the other. Where there's no
one around to listen. So you've just got to, you've just got to adapt and
move on. And you guys do a great job of that. I mean.
(12:05):
Yeah, well, hopefully. I mean, yeah, I mean, I mainly write about the industry now.
So I write for music business worldwide and Variety and they've both
got, you know, very impressive digital operations. They're still in
print, they still do stuff in print and it's, and it's really good. But
you know, we're not, we're not Just sort of blindly pursuing that
while ignoring the other channels. And that is, that is the way you have to
(12:27):
go. You know, with the rise, you've, you've been talking
about this. With the rise of social media influencers, user
generated content. My question mark is, has the relationship
between artists and music journalists changed
and what challenges does this present to you? Well, it
has changed in that again, back in, back in the day,
(12:50):
bands, artists, whatever they needed, they needed the media
to reach their fans. Now you don't really need the media to reach their fans.
You can go on Instagram and tell your fans whatever you want. But that
is not to say that that's necessarily the best way of delivering
whatever your message may be. If it's just my new records out, go
streaming, yeah, maybe that's fine. But if you want to add context and
(13:12):
explain a bit more about your art, there's other formats that are better. And that's
where journalist comes in. That's where you can still have a great relationship between
a journalist and a band. You know, there are plenty of
examples of that out there and plenty of times I've done that. And in that
respect it hasn't really changed, you know, to the 90s where
they were banned. Soon know you would write about and
(13:33):
you'd have a good relationship with. You still get that now. It's just the difference
is now you're probably not the only way for them to communicate and that's
fine. You know, it's probably a good thing if you're a band because there's,
back in the day, there's nothing worse than if your band was not
approved by the gatekeepers you were mentioning earlier. Then, you know, it was
very difficult to get anywhere. So now at least you've got some other options. But
(13:56):
equally there are still, you know, journalists who will do a great job of putting
your message across. And it's the same in the industry. You know, I do it
obviously I mainly do industry journalism these days, not
exclusively. But you know, again, there's a lot of
interesting companies out there, interesting executives doing interesting things.
And while they may have a big following on social media, equally they may
(14:18):
want a more nuanced, you know, well executed
journalistic piece to explain what they're doing. You know,
it's interesting hearing you talk about that because my question on that
is, do you find that the artist pieces that you may want
to do, you know, when you were talking about back in the day, I mean,
Jan Wenner, head of Rolling Stone, used to talk about like when he did A
(14:38):
cover story or had a cover story assigned, they would spend
three, four days over with, with an artist.
Now everything seems to be so controlled. You
know, you've got 30 minutes, you've got an hour and that's it. Do you
find that that's a case now because you have a reference point
from what it was to what it is now? That's not always the case. Yeah.
(15:00):
Okay. In the 90s you would, you know, you'd go on the road with a
band and you'd be with them for certainly several
days, maybe up to a week. Right. You'd be on the bus with them, you'd
be on the plane with them, you know, you'd be having breakfast with them. So
you had incredible access and could deliver a
real insightful story. Hopefully. Yeah, maybe not in
(15:21):
my case, but better journalists than me would deliver a real insightful,
insightful account of what was going on. But now,
I mean, it's very rare to get that now. And quite often,
even for a big story on a big magazine sometimes, yeah, you've got
45 minutes in a soulless boardroom. Yeah.
And you know, you have to try and build that rapport really quickly. And
(15:45):
obviously you're not going to get so much color to go in the story because
there's only so much color in a soulless boardroom. And you know,
you can, you can work magic with that if you're a good journalist. But equally,
I'm not sure that's as people think that's better for their
artist. But I would say most of the time it actually
isn't. Because unless you're artist in, you know,
(16:07):
somebody that you need to keep under wraps and not talking to the press,
then they will probably give a better account of themselves over a longer period
of time with somebody that they've got to know at least a little bit than
they will trotting out sort of pre prepared answers in a
boardroom. So the music industry too often doesn't see it that way, but
that's, you know, that's what we have to try and get around as journalists, I
(16:29):
guess. You know, Mark, last year you and Mike Walsh launched a new
and Podcast called the Money Trench, which dives into the
week's biggest music business stories and the various executives within
it. What was the inspiration for starting that? Well, we'd been talking
about it for a really long time, actually it took us ages to get it
together with one thing and another. But partly what we've
(16:51):
just been talking about really is that, you know, obviously I write for a lot
of publications. But it felt like in the Podcast world
and like a, a lot of people, I got into Podcasts during COVID when you
have more time on your hands and you know, you wanted something a bit more
intimate to listen to on your state sanctioned walk around
the park. So. But we felt in the music industry obviously there's
(17:12):
a lot of good Podcasts, your one included. Oh, thank you so much. But
we wanted one that sort of came from the UK and you
knew what you were getting from it. So it came out, came out every week
at the same time, same length, every time had
a format. You know, Mike's a big radio guy so he really
knows how to, to work a format like that. And yeah, we
(17:34):
just thought there's a lot of good people in the music industry who maybe don't
have that kind of long form platform anymore to
get their personality across and their ideas across. And yeah, and it's just
a good excuse to hang out and tell some music industry war stories,
to be honest with you. So that's always, that's always fun. But that's where,
you know, this is, this is the, I think one of
(17:56):
the great elements of, you know, how history and, and
so forth is going to be preserved, if you will, is through
those kinds of stories. You know, I think people will be studying these
Podcasts and you know, books and documentaries and stuff
for years to come when, when the people have, you know,
gone and, you know, they're no longer with us. So it's a
(18:18):
great document for that. We may not have the great, you know, in 10 page
interview in Rolling Stone anymore, but we have actually their words and,
you know, conversation with you. So there is something very valuable in that,
I think. Yeah. And it's relatively unfiltered and I think I'm sure you
guys on the Podcast as well, but it's a good format for
getting people to say things that. Perhaps they don't normally would. They don't
(18:41):
normally say, you know, so hopefully they're a bit more relaxed. Hopefully. I
mean, I have a lot of people on the Podcast that I know quite well,
but some I don't know at all. But always I feel like
I learn something about them. So hopefully other people do too.
And often in the music industry we don't look at that. We'll concentrate on,
you know, the stats or how many hit records are they behind and, you
(19:02):
know, what's their profit margin or whatever. You know,
there's some good, there's some good people in the music industry. So
it's nice to look at that as well sometimes. Hey, insiders, we hope that you've
been enjoying our featured conversation. Stay tuned because we've got so
much value coming your way. But before we dive back in, a word from
our sponsor. Hey, Eric, as an artist, what do you find are the most challenging
(19:24):
aspects to a music career, especially when you're starting out?
Well, I think one of the first things is just trying to get the direction
of who you are as an artist, where you want to go, where you want
to be. And, you know, we've talked about it on the show a lot. Who
is your target audience, who you are, who, what do you stand for?
What do you believe in? What do you think would resonate with an audience? And
so those are some of the things that I would feel being a new artist.
(19:47):
Obviously, what I know now is different because I know these things, but for people
that are out there, like our audience, that don't have necessarily any direction
to go, would be the first things that I would start off with. And having
the songs incorporate those elements that you're speaking
of into it, that's so important today. Yeah. And I think that's one of the
reasons why we started Moobu TV and why we started this new consulting service that
(20:09):
we're offering to all of our insiders out there. Because that is another one of
the big things. I mean, that is the big thing is like having the great
songs. That's what it really starts off. Our friend Don Grierson always said
it always starts with a great song. So that's probably. Besides putting
together what your audience and what your target audience is, is the single
most important thing. Where are your songs at currently today? Are you
(20:30):
collaborating with people? Are you trying to go out to networking events where you
can connect with other songwriters and stuff like that? So, yeah. And what are your
strengths exactly? You know, are you a strong lyric writer?
Are you a strong melody writer? Are you a strong musician? A player.
Right. You know, and it's really important to get really strong clarity
on those issues before proceeding. I totally agree, Ritch. And, you
(20:53):
know, with our consulting services, we offer a myriad of different packages
that we've made it super affordable for everybody. So, you know, if you guys are
interested out there and connecting with us on a coaching call, you can visit
book.moobutv.com and start off with a free
15 minute discovery call. Well, yeah, absolutely, that. We start with an
initial 15 minute call where we can get a sense of who you are. What
(21:15):
are the issues that you specifically have and want to work on.
Exactly. And we can go from there. Absolutely, yeah. And we tailor everything
to your needs. It's not like a cookie cutter thing. We kind of really want
to get to know who you are as an artist. Where you at today, what's
the snapshot of you as an artist today? And then start trying to
craft something that's tailor made for you. So again, if you're interested, Visit
(21:36):
us at book.moobootv.com for your 15 minute
discovery call. Hi, this is Jennifer Smith, music supervisor at Rat
Dance Party. Are you an insider? I am. Subscribe now,
absolutely. I mean, I would say probably most people that we've done
since we've started this, we don't know. Right. Very few. I
mean, you know, we did Clive Davis last year. Now, I knew him
(21:59):
because I worked with him. But you did Clive Davis. Yes, but
just let me pick that name up off the floor. No, I'd use it as
an example of just 99 of the people. We don't know.
Right. We don't know. But, but it is true. What Mark is pointing
out is that it's a great opportunity to go deep dive with somebody that you
know and you. Like you said, they open up more, they tend to be more
(22:20):
relaxed and you get things that you wouldn't normally get. I mean, John,
John Columbus Perfect was a perfect example. We did a
deep dive with him two hours. And it's an
incredible interview. I mean, I wasn't anticipating
it. I hadn't seen John in like 20 something years and
ran into him in the lobby of my dentist's
(22:41):
office. Literally some of the best networking.
Yes. And he was, you know, oh my God, rich. And I was like. And
called him up and asked. And then what we discovered, what Eric and I discovered
when we got him was he had not done an
interview in 12 years. He had turned them all down
because they all wanted like, you know, dirt on
(23:04):
bands and, and, you know, were negative and so forth.
So, you know, we had nothing but respect for him. So we did a whole
A through. Z of his career and he ended up revealing a lot
of things that we never really want to. If you know of John, you should
listen to that interview. He'd love it. Really deep dive. That sounds good. Don't make
me talk for two hours though. I'm not, I'm not interested in.
(23:26):
Well, let me ask you the money Trench takes a critical yet
celebratory approach to dissecting the music industry.
From your perspective, Mark, what are the biggest misconceptions about the
business that persists today. The thing about the music
industry, and part of the reason why I wanted to do the Podcast, I guess,
in the newsletter, is that a lot of people that cover the music industry hate
(23:47):
the music industry. Right. You know, I mean, yes, or maybe they don't hate it,
but they certainly. They're very critical. They have issues with the music industry. Now,
that's not to say I don't have music issues with some of the specific things
within the music industry, some of the crazy stuff the industry does, but I
like the music industry. I think it's generally, yes, as we do too, a
force for good. You know, the people in it are good. You know, we wouldn't
(24:08):
have all this great music without the industry behind it a lot of the time.
So I think, you know, that's probably the biggest misconception is
that people still think that the music industry
is run by. It's probably like a cartoon in the 70s of some
guy with a ponytail and a big cigar, you know, ripping off
artists and stuff. And yeah, I'm sure that stuff certainly happened in the past
(24:30):
and maybe it still happens now. But generally the people that I
meet in the music industry are good people, passionate
about artists and music and want to do the best for them. So I think
that's the, that's the image problem the music industry has,
and I don't think it's particularly fair. And I don't suppose
my Podcast, or even your Podcast is going to change that perception
(24:52):
totally, but, you know, you can put some stuff out there and hopefully, hopefully it
helps people along the way. How do you strike the
right balance between exposing hard truths and maintaining
relationships with, with the industry, key players. And have you ever faced
any pushback for covering a particular topic? Oh, yeah. I mean,
not so much on the Podcast, but certainly in my career in the past, you
(25:14):
know, I worked for, I edited Music Week for five years and
which is the UK trade publication. I worked at Billboard for a
long time. Obviously I do stuff for MBW and Variety. And yeah, there's,
there's sometimes there is somebody who doesn't want you to write whatever you
want to write about it. I'm not too good with pushback, to be honest, so
10 to do it anyway. But, you know, you always want to be fair. You
(25:37):
don't want to. You don't want to stitch somebody up. But sometimes
you do have to tell the truth. And generally, in my experience,
people, they might not think they want that, but they do actually prefer
it because you know, there's no point as a trade publication,
whatever you are, there's no point just telling people what they want to hear. Right?
You've got to tell them what they need to know. And that's, that's the difference.
(25:59):
So it's, it's easy to think, you know, oh, well,
this, this big company in the music industry doesn't want us to write this, so.
So we shouldn't. But that's a slippery slope. You know, once you go down that,
once you go down that road, it's hard. It's hard to come back. So I
guess I'm quite lucky. And I grew up in the, you know,
journalistic wise in the 90s when, you know, certainly on NME
(26:21):
and places like that, we were encouraged to write pretty much what we like. You
know, there was obviously legal checks and balances, but not too much, not
too many other restrictions. And, you know, I've carried definitely some
of that attitude forward, I think while, you know, hopefully
you just get the balance right and do the right thing while
hopefully not pissing too many people off because you have
(26:44):
still got to work with them. You know, generally people get over it, I find.
You know, I would imagine you've gained a lot of insight from
these conversations that you're talking about with many people,
especially on, you know, your Podcast, the Money Trench. And
I'm curious from, from your perspective, Mark, and you've been at this, as
we've learned for, for a long time, what are the,
(27:07):
what you would see are the biggest power shifts that are occurring in the
music industry today? What are the things you're seeing,
I guess, as a result of these conversations? Are there any things that are sort
of coming to mind about wasn't interesting how this is happening or how
that is happening based on that? Yeah, I mean, there's a few, there's a few
big shifts going on. I think potentially this is quite a
(27:30):
transformative time for the music industry. I mean, we've sadly,
I'm old enough to remember a few of those big shifts, but this, this
could be one. I don't know if it will be, but if you look at
the way the change in role of the labels, particularly the major labels and
where they're concentrating their efforts, and you're seeing the
shift from new music to catalog music, you know, dominating a lot
(27:51):
of listening, obviously AI is coming in. I
mean, it feels almost cliche to talk about AI and the
music industry now because, you know, everybody's talking about it and we don't know where
that's going to go. But it could. There could be some good things about it.
It could potentially be disastrous. And you can talk to
10 different people in the music industry and get 10 different views. So
(28:13):
there's a lot going on. Live music is so much more important than
perhaps it used to be and maybe is more important than recording music to
certainly a lot of artists in the space. So, yeah,
there's loads going on. But this is the brilliant thing about the music industry and
covering the music industry is that, you know, in however
many years I've been doing this, I can't ever remember a time when you go,
(28:35):
that's a bit boring, isn't it? It's all there, it's all the same. Not much
going on. You know, it's just. It's never like that. It's always. It will
always be changing, will always feel like it's on the cusp of something
either terrible or amazing. Sometimes it is and sometimes,
you know, things don't go the way you expect. But that's what keeps it interesting.
Yeah, but. But the changes you're talking about are seismic and they're
(28:58):
also changes that are more profound in the sense of. That they're
not just affecting the music industry. AI is
affecting every aspect of our lives, culturally, politically,
socially, technologically, medically. It's not just
going to be a thing on, you know, helping us to write a lyric or
melody or song or production. It's. It's going to impact a lot
(29:19):
of other areas as well. So I think that's what makes these changes that
you're speaking about so significant and important. What
you said about live, that's crucial because you probably know him,
the gentleman, he's British, who runs APA or who owned
it, the artist Performing agency, English Gentleman,
he sold it to Wasserman, major agent, has been around
(29:41):
forever. He said here a couple years ago, one of the most interesting
things is I've been an agent for over 50 years and I have
never ever had a roster of artists
on my company who don't have record deals, who
are viable in the touring world now, that's
quite significant, who are not signed. And he said, and
(30:03):
they're both veterans and new people, which is quite
interesting. Yeah, there's been points in the music industry
history, I guess, where you could say there's two music industries at this point. There's
probably about six. You know, I think in a way you need to
read it, define success because we're still hung up on charts
and, and things like that. And, you know, I love It, I love a chart,
(30:25):
don't get me wrong. And it's a useful, useful measurement still, but it's
not the only one. And there are, there are artists that do amazing
business live who, you know, and then you look at the streaming figures and there's
nothing there. You look at, there are artists who on social media would appear to
be massive and then they can barely sell a ticket, you know, so it's,
it's an interesting business like that. And I think the days where you could
(30:48):
empirically sit there and say, well, this is the biggest artist in the world,
you know, if they haven't gone already, they're certainly numbered already.
You've got Taylor Swift, I guess he's the biggest number in the world. But below
Taylor Swift, you know, there's a lot of contenders in different areas.
So yeah, it's interesting. Very. Speaking
of redefining, Mark, from your vantage point, with the rise of
(31:10):
so many varied independent artists breaking through in non traditional ways,
do you think that we are redefining what success means today?
Well, as I, yeah, as I was just saying, I guess there's different ways of
looking at it and the, the idea that you kind of have to sign
to a big label to make it now, I mean, if you want to be
Taylor Swift, you maybe need to have a big label involved, but certainly to,
(31:32):
to have success at some pretty high levels
below that, it's not so necessary anymore. You can put your own music out,
you know, you can distribute it, you can market it yourself
on social media. The areas where you need to
touch the music industry have shrunk. But that's not to say
that people in those areas can't still help. So it's, I think
(31:55):
the, the thing is, if there ever was a time where
you could just go, well, we'll press all these buttons and you'll make it. That's
long gone, you know, so you've got to, you've got to try all the, all
the different buttons out there and every combination of them and you might never
get there. But equally, you know, if it goes your way, you might do
people criticize TikTok and I get that. But the beauty
(32:18):
of TikTok is that anybody from anywhere,
from any era can just take off on it overnight and
suddenly you got a hit on you. Now that's, these days, that's
only a tiny part of the process and that's where the work
starts. But you know, we didn't, we didn't have that back in the day. So
if you're an Artist, whether you've just started or whether you've been around
(32:39):
for 20 years, that's probably nice to know. At least that's a
possibility. Yeah, absolutely. Let me ask you
from your perspective, Mark, are artists more
educated about their career, career and the business
aspects of their careers today than they were in previous eras,
in your mind, generally speaking? Yes. Yeah. I mean, back in
(33:01):
the day, you'd get the odd person who was all across the business side of
things, but the default position was definitely not that. It
was, you know, well, talk to my manager about that. I don't. I don't
care. I'm a. I'm a rock star. You know, today you still get a few
people like that. And you know what? I love meeting the people like that nowadays
because rare. They're keeping it alive in many respects.
(33:23):
But more often I would say, you know, people at least have a
decent awareness of the fundamentals of the business and they're very wise
to. Because, you know, if you know the basics, then it's
much harder for somebody to rip you off. So
it makes a lot of sense. And there are some people who, you
know, know an awful lot about the music industry, know it inside out, know
(33:45):
more than somebody like me does. You know, often those people are very successful.
Taylor Swift, Ed Sheeran, people like that. They are across the business in a
way that you would never have met anybody in the 90s who was playing music
that would have known that stuff. But I think they learned that over time.
Yeah, I mean, you know, Taylor Swift has been in this for 17 years. But
she's been very savvy from the beginning. Yeah, very savvy, very knowledgeable. And
(34:08):
Ed Sheeran began his career, what, 10, 12 years ago, so it's been.
Yeah, but you've got to have a. I guess you've got to be
predisposed to it in a way. So. But I. I think any.
Any artist starting out now who doesn't at least get
scripts with the basics would be doing themselves a
disservice. And, you know, often you will meet a really new band and they won't
(34:30):
have a record deal, they won't have a publishing deal, they maybe don't have a
manager, but they've probably got a lawyer. You know, quite often
that's the first people these. These artists get. And, you know, fair, fair
play to them because as long as that's a lawyer you can trust, that's probably.
Yeah, that's probably going to pay you. It's probably going to pay you back further
down the Line. So. Right, yeah. Mark, throughout your
(34:52):
life, what books, films or documentaries have you found to be
particularly inspirational to you, professionally speaking, that you could share with our audience?
Wow, that's a, that's a big question. Well, about the music business,
you mean? Yeah. Or anything that's influenced you, that's influenced you personally
from a journalism standpoint? Anything, you know. Yeah, I mean,
I'm not a huge reader of books, but I do like a music industry
(35:15):
book. So what have I read recently? I've read Simon Williams, who runs
Fierce Panda, has done a great book called how not to
Run a Record Label, I think it's called. That's a really inspirational
read. I used to share a flat with Simon back in the day, so. And
you know, so I know him. But it was really enlightening book
and I read a really good one called I Was There by Alan Edwards, who's
(35:37):
a legendary PR in London, has done PR for most of the
biggest artists of all time. And that's really good fun as well,
documentary wise. I mean, it's. We're in a golden age for
music documentaries. It used to be quite a rare thing to do and now it
feels like there's so many out there I can't even, I can't even keep up.
But it's good because I think, you know, in many
(35:59):
ways music wasn't taken so seriously as some of the other art
forms, particularly the smaller stories. Yeah, you'd always get something about
the superstars of the age. But it's always nice to see a
documentary by somebody who perhaps didn't get all the props
that they deserved at the time. And now pick it up if you're going to,
if you're going to watch one, there's not really one. The thing I just talked
(36:21):
about, there's a hilarious Bros Documentary. Did you have Brock Bros.
In America? They were like this boy band. I remember, I remember them
right. Okay. It's called after the Screaming Stops or something like that.
And it's, it's, it's sort of really funny. I'm really sad. At the same time,
it's a very cautionary tale for anybody who wants to get into the music industry.
He went on to be a record executive. One of the members, one of the.
(36:43):
Craig Logan. Yeah, he was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's very successful in the
music industry. But the two brothers are still
making music to varying degrees. But it's worth
checking out. I'm sure it's available in America somewhere. Okay,
definitely. We'll definitely put that in the show. Notes, definitely. Mark, what
advice do you have for those who are interested in a career
(37:06):
in music journalism? Don't do it.
Don't do it. It's a terrible life. No, I'm joking. I mean, it's.
The thing I would say is that if you're going to do it nowadays,
you've got to really commit to it. You know what I mean? You've got to
really want to do it. Back when I started, it
(37:26):
was a really hard gig to get into in that nobody could. There was no
formal paths into it. Nobody could tell you how to do it. It was very
frustrating. Nowadays they've got courses in music journalism,
intern programs and all these. All these other things. But
paradoxically, it's much harder to actually make a living
writing about music. So I think if you're. Most of
(37:48):
the young music journalists that I meet out at gigs and stuff like that, they're,
you know, they've all got day jobs. None of them are. I was. I was
very lucky once I got some work on the NME. That was pretty much
what I did, you know. So now that's
not a lucky. Actually too many people have until much later in their career. So
if you're going to do it, obviously it's fantastic life. You get to see loads
(38:08):
of gigs, you get to hang out with rock stars, you get free beers.
Fewer free beers than you used to in my day, but you still get a
few. So. But you've got to. You've got to really think, this is the life
for me and I'm going to commit to it. And the fact that I'm not
going to earn any money for a long time, you know, just.
You're going to have to get over that or find a way around it or
(38:30):
hopefully eventually we'll invent a new
paradigm where we can make money out of music journalism again, because it's. It's
not easy at the moment, but, you know, stick. Stick at it, I think
would be the short form of that advice. Okay,
Mark, we want to thank you so much for doing this. We really, really
appreciate it very much. It's my pleasure. Great. I'm glad we finally got to do
(38:52):
it. I am, too. Absolutely. Yes. And actually, you're. I think you're our first
journalist. You are our first journalist. That's the reason why we wanted to have
you. Yeah. All the others said no. I
was at the bottom of a very long list. And
I. I guess, you know, final question being what's the best way for people to
reach you? Is it through your Website through the money Trench. Through socials. Go
(39:14):
to themoneytrench.com. you'll find our socials on there. There's an email as
well. Give us, give us a shout out. Beautiful. Somebody will get back to
you. Okay, great. Thank you so much. Cheers.
Wow. I am so glad that we had. This conversation
finally after all these times we were trying to get Mark. He finally
did it. Finally. Yeah, we were sick. He was sick. He didn't make it.
(39:37):
We. I screwed up and, and, and, and messed the time up
for him before. So now he's finally here and we were able to have this
conversation and it's our first. Yes. With the Music Journal. With the first. With our
music. And, and probably, you know, one of the Premiere. Premiere. What, What a.
With. Yeah, exactly. And this was a great conversation on many levels. I mean,
Mark has really been someone who's been at the forefront of music
(39:58):
journalism for, you know, close to, if not more than 30 years.
Right. You know, in the UK and really understanding the
changing role of music journalism because he's been on the forefront and on the
front lines of it. And he talked about so many interesting things in this conversation.
I mean, you know, one of the biggest ones I thought, for me that was
the most interesting was when he spoke about industry power shifts.
(40:21):
You know, I think he said there's a few big, big shifts on the change
in the role of the labels, the shift from new music to
catalog music, dominating. Obviously, he said, AI is
coming in. Live music is so much more important than perhaps it used to
be. And there is. And that's, that's a significant thing for our audience
to hear live music. Like, you know, I hear, and I
(40:43):
hear this often that, you know, artists don't want to perform or they don't want
to get into that aspect of, like, having to book shows, having to
perform. Right. I think if that's your consciousness and
that's your feeling of it, you're going to have a very, very, very
limited career. Much more narrow. Much more
narrow. And it's going to be very difficult for you to find an
(41:04):
audience. Because I think today, you know, one of the
distinctions in a world where music is free is how well can you
build an audience. And it's like trying to have a relationship with
someone who's never there. Right. And if you can connect with an artist
live, and you know this, Eric, because you've spoken about it before, you know, when
you connect with an artist live, you will always be a fan of that artist.
(41:26):
Yeah, you will always. They will always have a career, the more they can do
that. Even artists that don't have records, even artists that don't have hits anymore
at all. And we see this from people that are, you know, touring
massively in arenas and stadiums, who haven't put out records or
had hits in decades, but they still have a devoted audience.
And him talking about that, I thought was a very interesting observation about
(41:48):
2025. Also, one of the other areas, Ritch, that I, that I love
that he discussed was on adapting to new platforms. And you know, and I quote
from Mark, you've just got to go to where the audience is,
whether that's social media or obviously online is a big thing or
a Podcast. You just got to access people where they are and what format
that they want. And I think that goes to the point of what you're mentioning,
(42:11):
besides of what people are consuming, media wise, which I think he's
discussing in this particular comment. But also you have to go to
where your audience is and that's finding out who your target
audience is. What wheelhouse do you fall under and where
do you go and find that audience? Where are they congregating?
Yeah, and we talk a lot about that in the whole artist element
(42:33):
when you're building an audience. Those very factors that you just mentioned, you
know, like how social media is not a generic term.
Right. You know, Facebook is not Instagram, Instagram is not Twitter. It's all
very distinct. And finding that audience is a very, very important
element. Especially today when we have infinite choice, it's
absolutely crucial. Hey insiders, thanks so much for tuning
(42:56):
into this episode. We really appreciate it. To get show notes,
links and everything that was mentioned during this interview, head on over to our Official
website at
mubutv.com/podcast/shownotes. If you're
enjoying the content and what we're doing here on the show, please subscribe the
Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen
(43:16):
to Podcasts from. And don't forget to rate and review our show at iTunes.
Five star reviews are always welcome and help to ensure that our
Podcast stands out on the top rated and new and noteworthy charts
on itunes and our space. You can also find us at social media
at Facebook, Instagram, TikTok and Twitter X
all ending with the handle MUBUTV which is spelled m u b
(43:38):
u t v. Don't forget to catch our flagship show, the MUBUTV
Music Business Insider Video series series airing every week on
YouTube at
youtube.com/MUBUTV. This show was produced and created
by Ritch Esra and Eric Knight theme music by Disciples of
Babylon. And be sure to tune in next week for another episode of the
(43:58):
MUBUTV Music Business Insider Podcast.
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