E102 Chatting with Johnny Hickman of 'Cracker'

A band doesn’t thrive for thirty plus years by accident. Guitarist/Singer and cofounder Johnny Hickman opens up about the simple pact that kept Cracker alive—stay the course, skip the drama, and serve the song. We dig into how he and David Lowery decide who sings what, which ideas belong to Cracker versus solo projects, and how rotating players and richer arrangements kept the sound evolving without losing its soul.

Johnny shares the heart of their identity as a conversation between his signature riffs and David’s singular voice, a push-pull that lets them morph styles while staying unmistakably Cracker. From the pressure to follow Kerosene Hat with more of the same to choosing strings, keys, and pedal steel instead, he explains how ignoring trends led to a fan favorite. We swap notes on Tom Petty and Mike Campbell’s riff-to-song alchemy, why Boys of Summer proves genre lines are flimsy, and how great songs outlast scenes and labels.

Community threads through everything: Camp In and Camp Out’s curated nights and those joyous, glitchy “Live from the Cave” streams that carried fans through lockdown. Johnny previews a Halloween return on his public page “Johnny from Cracker,” complete with costumes and sly covers alongside Cracker staples.

Hit play for candid stories behind I Hate My Generation, Loser, and the band’s onstage philosophy: play the hits proudly, let the deep cuts breathe, and keep the room connected. If Cracker ever sound like your favorite band, Johnny says, you’ll bring friends—and that’s exactly how this family keeps growing. Enjoy the conversation, share it, and subscribe so you don’t miss the celebration and more.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hey, this is Johnny Help from Cracker.

(00:01):
You're listening to music in myshoes.

SPEAKER_01 (00:39):
Hey everybody, this is Jim Boge, and you're
listening to Music in My Shoes.
That was Vic Thrill kicking offepisode 102.
As always, I'm thrilled to behere with you.
Let's learn something new orremember something old.
One of my favorite bands overthe last 30 plus years is
Cracker.
Jimmy, let me tell yousomething.

(01:00):
They have so many great songs.
Yeah.
Teen Angst, What the World NeedsNow, Low, Get Off This, You're a
Transhad Girl, I Ride My Bike, IHate My Generation.
I mean, what great song titles,don't you think?

SPEAKER_05 (01:15):
Yeah, yeah, good stuff.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16):
Seven Days, Almond Grove, Where have Those Days
Gone, and just so many more.
I can't even talk about all thegreat songs they really have.
Well, we are lucky enough tohave guitar singer Johnny M.
F.
Hickman of Cracker joining usfrom Colorado.
And when I say MF, I meanJohnny, my friend Hickman.

(01:37):
Hello, Johnny, and welcome toMusic in My Shoes.

SPEAKER_00 (01:40):
Welcome.
Thank you.
It's a pleasure to be with youguys.

SPEAKER_01 (01:43):
We really do appreciate you taking the time.
And, you know, I really want toget into this.
I love the band Cracker, youknow, since the first time that
I heard them.
And when I say them, I mean you.
And it is so great to be able tohear a band still in 2025 as
we're ending the year andgetting ready to go into 2026,

(02:04):
that you guys are still relevantand still selling out places and
still putting on excellentshows.
And, you know, how is it thatyou're able to do that, but so
many bands were not able to?

SPEAKER_00 (02:18):
I don't know.
I think uh David and I, and mypartner in Cracker, when we
started the band, we said uh wedid we discuss it.
We'd both been in a few bandsbefore we in on our own before
we put this band together.
You know, he had camper VanBeethoven, and we'd known each
other for oh nine or ten yearsat that point.
And uh we made a decision if weget this launched, if we get it

(02:40):
off the ground, let's just staythe course, let's not break up
over the usual bullshit that uhbands break up over and you
know, a girlfriend or you know,whatever crazy nonsense.
And so we've done it, we'vestayed the course.
And uh yeah, we started talkingabout putting a band together in
1992.
Uh, and here we are, you know,all these years later, 36, 37

(03:03):
years later.
And uh yeah, I think uh thereare a lot of little secrets to
that, some of which are that uhDavid and I we both you know do
other projects too.
We do our solo work, we put outsolo records, and um and there
have been a lot of members inand out of cracker over the
years, but David and I sort ofbeing the core, you know, um

(03:26):
that's just the way we'veoperated, and we're very, very
lucky we're still going.

SPEAKER_01 (03:29):
Yeah, definitely still going.
So let me ask you about that.
You talk about doing some sideprojects.
When you or David are writingsomething, do you think, uh, you
know what, this is somethinggood for Cracker, or maybe this
is something I should do solo,or should I do, you know, what
is it, the Dalton Dalton Hickmangang?
Hickman-Dalton gang?

SPEAKER_00 (03:49):
Yeah, we have our little side projects.
Um, yeah, it kind of goes thatway.
Um, you know, David and I, whenwe write, uh occasionally one of
the two of us will write a songand realize, wow, this this is
this should be the other guy.
You know, David will write one.
I think this is a Johnny song.
I think you should sing it.
Or I've, you know, over theyears I've written a few songs
and said, nah, David should singthis one.

(04:10):
I think that's part of our partof our secret, is like really
just listening to a piece ofmusic and thinking about what it
where where is its home, youknow, which band, which uh, you
know, which group does it go to?
And it's just uh, you know, it'sjust been been a really fun
challenge.
And the other thing is we, youknow, there've been a lot of
we've had a lot of people in andout of the band over the years,

(04:30):
and that kind of keeps it fresh,you know.
Right.
Our current lineup's beentogether for a little while.
Um Carlton Owens on drums andand Brian Howard on bass is sort
of our core rhythm section, andDavid and I on guitar, each on
guitar and vocals.
We also have Ann Harris, who isour violinist from uh from

(04:52):
Chicago, and she is just afabulous performer and
incredible talent.
So this lineup is justfantastic, but it it it you know
it morphs as we go.
You know, we do certain Davidand I were just talking last
night about the fact that uhit's coming up on a big
anniversary for our album TheGolden Age, which was our third
album, and uh it's it's sort ofDavid's favorite and my favorite

(05:15):
too.
It's a lot of fans' favoritetoo.
Uh, and we're gonna we're gonnahave uh put the put a band
together to do shows uh withfeaturing the golden age.
Um and uh it's a little bit of adifferent that album was a
little bit of a departure for usin that uh you know the first
two albums are basically thefour-piece sound, but with the

(05:36):
golden age, we uh added stringsand we added some you know
different kinds of backingvocals and keyboard and pedal
steel.
We went a little wider on thatone.
So to reenact it live, we'regonna have to hire some other
musicians, which is fine.
We love doing that anyway.
We always like to sort of stirit up and keep the band fresh.

SPEAKER_01 (05:54):
Yeah, I have to be honest, the Golden Age is my
favorite cracker album.
And when I joined one of theFacebook groups, the the Cracker
Crumbs, it asked the question,you know, what's your favorite
album or your favorite song orsomething?
And I talked about that albumjust because it wasn't as
commercially successful as youknow previously, but it is a

(06:17):
hell of an album.
It is so good.
I mean, every single song isfantastic.
And brother, you're welcome.
I mean, it truly, truly is.
And you know, it gets you knowkicked off with I hate my
generation, which is just youknow, David just screaming from
the top of his lungs at times,and you on the guitar just

(06:38):
playing it like there's notomorrow.
And I mean, I love that.
And at times when that came out,I did hate my generation.
So I I kind of understood alittle bit about it.
And that's exciting that you'relooking at doing uh some shows
based on that because I reallydo love that album.

SPEAKER_00 (06:56):
Oh, thank you so much.
Yeah, we were talking about ituh just yesterday and last
night.
Um, if we're gonna do this,we've got to do it right.
So we're really gonna do it.
We're gonna do it in springtime.
We're gonna do uh probablyperform the whole album at our
our camp in.
You know, we have camp out outin the desert.
We have camp in in Athens,Georgia, every year.
And Camp In is our littlefestival at the 40-watt.

(07:18):
We hold it at the 40-watt uhclub in uh in Athens, and we
talked about it, and yeah, itwas an interesting time for us.
The first album did well.
You know, it's it's it's almosta curse.
If your first album does really,really well, then you then you
gotta follow it up.
Where do we go from here?
Uh, with David and I, our firstalbum, you know, the self-titled

(07:38):
debut, Cracker, which all thefans call brand, because it says
cracker brand on there.
We sort of made it look like alike a like a food, the artwork,
right?
Uh a food product or something,cracker brand.
So people call it brand.
Um, that came out and didrespectively well.
Um it had uh the hit Teen Angst,which became a number one song

(07:59):
on on uh college radio and indieindie radio at the time.
And uh you know, it did well forus, and uh songs got placed in
in films and all kinds of goodthings.
I mean, it wasn't gigantic, butit did respectively well.
And then a year later wefollowed it up with kerosene
hat, which was even bigger, youknow, it had the hits low and

(08:22):
get off this, and it really gotget us even more traction.
So um for the third album, wedidn't want to make kerosene hat
Mach 2, you know.
We said, well, let's let's let'sfollow our muse here.
What are we gonna do?
So we made a decidedly sort ofgrunge was the big thing at the
time, you know.
Uh big heavy grunge, you know,to you know, sometimes I don't

(08:43):
like to throw a hang a title ona style of music or a you know,
a genre or what have you.
But that's sort of what washappening, right?
Um sort of a raw guitar sort ofband, sort of time, bands like
Pearl Jam and Nirvana and and uhwhere had been really making
headway, which was great.
I mean, we were and we'reconnected to that in some way.
We are a guitar band, but we goa little broader because we put

(09:06):
in our country influences andour punk rock influences and uh
so forth.
But with uh the golden age, wekind of uh started moving more
toward kind of a glam sort ofthing.
It's it's that that albumsonically reminds me of like
mid-period, early mid-periodBowie or Roxy music or uh uh you

(09:28):
know, it's just we kind of wentin a different different
direction.
You know, we wanted to make it alittle more produced and a
little bit go a little broader.
There's a lot of keyboard andpiano on it, and you know, we
keep morphing our band.
You know, it's it's funny backin the day, and just in the
business, people kind of call itthe Steely Dan methods for, you
know, right.
You know, we don't sound likethat band.

(09:49):
It's basically two singersongwriters and other people and
come come in and out of the bandto create a new environment for
each album or each tour, and andit's uh it's a fun challenge.
But with the golden age, yeah,we kind of we kind of went in a
little bit of a dick differentdirection.
Um, so I don't think uh radioknew quite what to do with it.
I don't know.
Um, it was just a little bitsporadic, but as you know, uh

(10:13):
we've discussed, I mean, it thatit became a fan favorite.
Uh the album did really wellwith the fans, and uh the
reviews were generally very,very good.
Uh, but it didn't at that timerecord sales still still sort of
mattered and uh you know it didokay, but it didn't do what
kerosene had it done.
So of course in the industrythey thought, oh wow, poor
cracker, you know, they slipped.

(10:34):
But we look back on it as atriumph.
Uh David was telling meyesterday, he said, I think it's
our best album.
And I said, it's certainly oneof my favorites, if not my
favorite.
I think it's a fantastic album.
And we continue to change alittle bit with each album, and
somehow still that's that's thethat's the trick, is to morph a
little bit, change a little bit,it's still, but it still sounds

(10:55):
like you.
And uh with my guitar playingand the riffs, the kind of riffs
I write, and the melodies I comeup with, and David's supremely
gifted lyrical skills.
Um, it's always gonna sound likeDavid and Johnny.
It's always gonna sound likeCracker.
Um, and uh so that it gives us alot of create creative license

(11:16):
to sort of move around withthat.
Uh because David has a he has avery unique voice.

SPEAKER_01 (11:20):
Yes.
Uh but you have a very uniqueguitar also.
You definitely know it's JohnnyHickman.
There's no doubt about it.

SPEAKER_00 (11:27):
Thank you very much.
Yeah, I think a long time ago,David sort of said, Yeah, that
the the core of what we do issort of the conversation between
your guitar and what I'msinging, and that's sort of how
we build our songs and sort ofthe way it presents.
As David put it, he said, Yeah,there's here's here's how it
goes.
Johnny makes a big racket, youknow, on the guitar.

(11:47):
He does something, I talk someshit, he does that racket again,
I talk more shit, and then we doit at the same time, and that's
a cracker song over and out,which is an oversimplification,
but it kind of gets at the shapeof our approach, and I like
that, you know.
Well, thank you for that.
I'm glad that I have a signaturesound.
You do thank you.

(12:09):
I listened to myself on on theall our records, which uh of all
of which I'm very proud of.
Also, we're very proud of thefact that we've never put out a
sucky, a crappy record, youknow, they're all good, right?
And they've all donerespectively well in the fan
base.
No, I agree.
Different, different uhfavorites, though the fans have
different favorites, but thegolden age is a fave of a lot of

(12:31):
people that sort of went, Wow,this is different than kerosene
hat, and I like it, I think it'sbetter was sort of the vibe.
Um, but you know, it's a ficklebusiness.
Uh, you know, as as they as theysay in The Godfather, this is
what we've done, you know, youknow, this is what we've chosen
to do.
This is the business we'vechosen.
Okay, you know, and uh so yougot to ride it out.

(12:53):
It's up, down, around, andrepeatedly.
Um, I personally feel verygrateful uh to be have been in a
band that's been together for 35years, still, as you say,
relevant.
Thank you very much.
We still have packed shows.
Um, we're still garner new fansoccasionally.
We're the kind of band that ifwe're your favorite band, you

(13:16):
take a you take a lot of pridein bringing your friends,
bringing new people to theparty.
And uh it happens constantly atthe shows where I'll see very
familiar faces, and I'll go upand say hello to them.
I'm very much, you know, thatguy in the band.
You know, I go hang with thefans and talk to them, form a
bond with them.
Um, and uh notice that theybrought some new friends, and it
might have been their firstcracker show, and it's usually

(13:38):
very, very positive.
So, yeah, that's a good base tocome from.
And uh right now we're taking alittle of a butt bit of a
hiatus.
Um, we've both been focused ondoing some solo stuff, but we're
already talking about hittingthe road in the springtime,
doing the the the uh reenactmentof the golden age, if you will.
But yeah, we'll probably hit ithard next spring and summer.

(14:00):
We'll get out and tour again uhwith whatever our lineup is at
the time.
And uh yeah, I mean, onward andupward, you know, we're not
giving up yet.

SPEAKER_01 (14:09):
Oh, don't, don't.
So back in 1996 when Golden Agecame out, my girlfriend at the
time was going to University ofGeorgia in Athens, and I would
drive, it was just like probablya little bit more than two hours
each way, and I would go driveto go see her, and I had like a

(14:29):
a little eight-track boom boxthat I had on the front seat of
my car, and I would put in thegolden age, and I would just
listen to it the whole way onthe drive ride there and just
learning all the words andsinging it, and that was, you
know, my trips to Athens andback from Athens.
And, you know, you talked about,you know, camping.

(14:52):
You know, I've I've had theability to go the last couple of
years, and it it is a wonderfulthing that you guys do when you
set it all up as, you know, onenight it's kind of like you and
David solo when you have someoneopen for you beforehand, and
then the next night is adifferent lineup where you're
doing some different things, andthen the third night it's you

(15:15):
know, cracker, but with anotheropener, and the fourth night,
you know, is maybe the hitsnight, and it's just like really
cool how you have everything,and it's just a lot of fun.
And and to see some people thatI wasn't familiar with, you
know, different artists, and youknow, getting to see Ike Riley

(15:35):
was for me the first time, and II really enjoyed him.
I thought he was fantastic.
And uh immediately I went andwatched his documentary like uh
two days later after uh camping.
Like I just wanted to see it.
I talked to his kids.
It was just a fun time.
And you know, the the thingabout you, you know, I met you

(15:56):
at at uh I met you in Murphy,North Carolina last year,
actually.
Okay.
And I met you there, but I metyou at Hendershot.
Um, you did a solo performanceafter like a little meet and
greet with Cracker.
And you are so personable.
You really truly are someonethat goes and talks to everyone

(16:19):
like everyone is just your equaland that you're no different
than anybody else.
And the only other person that Iknow that I can think of that's
like that is Kevin Kinney ofDriving and Crying.
Now, I actually saw him a fewweeks ago, and he said, Hey,
who's coming up on the show?
You know, who's some of theguests?

(16:40):
And I was telling him, and it'slike, hey, I like Johnny
Hickman, tell Johnny I saidhello.
And I find it funny that theonly person that I think is as
personable as you is the guythat says, Oh, tell him I said
hello.
You know, if you look if youlook on Facebook, Kevin Kinney.

SPEAKER_00 (16:57):
I think Kevin Kinney is a tremendous talent.
And uh, yeah, we hang.
You know, we're friends, we'regood friends.
Like I've I'm uh I've I'veformed uh a friendship with with
Kevin long ago.
And uh I love driving andcrying.
I love Kevin's solo work, Iloved uh, you know, Suntangled
Angel Revival.
Just oh, there you go.
Just these fabulous projectsthings that he's done.

(17:20):
I just think he's tremendous,which is kind of how we
connected with Brian becauseBrian was part of that uh
Suntangled album phase.
Uh Brian and Gib Droll and otherfriends of ours.
And you know, Larry and I likethat that guy's pretty
fantastic, man.
And uh so we get Brian's been inthe band for just you know a
long, long time now.
And uh, you know, this is how,you know, uh, in the best of

(17:45):
situations, this is how ourbusiness works, you know, the
way people become friends withone another and you know, side
projects are inspired, and youjump in there and do them.
Um I'm I'm I'm happy to hearyour report of uh of camping and
how we do it, how we shape it,you know.
And uh from the get-go, I meanit was interesting when we
started, when David and Istarted, um, you know, we did a

(18:07):
couple of records and thingswere going tremendously well.
And uh I know that uh camper manBeethoven had a slightly
acrimonious breakup in themiddle of a tour.
They just burned themselves out,they broke up, and uh that was
the last I sort of heard of it.
And then suddenly David said,Yeah, I've been hanging out with
the guys in camper.
Um, and they as soon as they gotback together, they started

(18:29):
working on another record.
I went, Wow, okay, well, cool.
What am I gonna do?
So I had a bunch of songs thatcould have ended up being
cracker songs, so I made myfirst solo record, which is Palm
Henge, which is 20 years oldthis year, and I'm gonna do a
little celebration with that uhin the new year, uh, do a
20-year anniversary of thatre-release of Palm Henge.

SPEAKER_02 (18:49):
Nice.

SPEAKER_00 (18:49):
Um, I was so fortunate.
Palm Henge came out becauseDavid said, You're doing a solo
record?
I go, Yeah, you got you're intwo bands, man.
What do you think?
I'm gonna just gonna sit aroundand wait.
No.
So, you know, I started workingon Palm Henge and had all these
incredibly talented people playon it.
And it was a and uh I put it outmyself, my own little imprint,
Camp Stove Records, and uh younever know what's gonna happen.

(19:11):
But uh uh Robert Christgow got ahold of it, who a lot of people
in the business consider thedean of rock rock critics, you
know, of rock journalists andwriters.
Uh he put uh Chris Gow's recordguide.
He puts out every this book, heput it out every year.
He got a hold of it and gave ituh Voice's Choice and Village
Voice, who he was writing forthen.

(19:31):
And people called him and said,Wow, this how'd you get how did
he find it?
How did you get that guy'sattention?
I don't know.
Uh, word of mouth, you know, howit goes.
And he gave it a sensationalreview.
Uh, he did an article in Blendermagazine of it too, and gave it
uh, I think a B plus orsomething, and uh just really,
really talked up the album.

(19:52):
Um, he was the one critic thatsaid he's it's a little bit of a
concept album about the the thethe the arc and the the slow
decline of California, you know,where I where David and I are
from.
And at that particular time Iwas sort of saying goodbye to
California and moving toColorado, where I've been 20
years now.
Um anyway, I put out I put outPalm Henge, put out a solo

(20:14):
record, and it did remarkablywell.
Nobody expected it to.
I remember David saying, Yeah,you just never know.
Yeah, good luck.
It's see how it goes.
Boom, the reviews were just overthe top great.
Um, very happy to say.
And the fans embraced it.
Uh I sold a pretty good numberof copies.
So there we were, they were upand running.
And then every every year or so,one of the two of us will put

(20:36):
out uh a solo work, and we'vebeen very fortunate.
You know, David put out thePalace Cards and a couple of his
solo records, which are prettysensational.
And when Camper reunited and putout uh uh uh New Roman Times,
and it was a sensational record,and it got great reviews.
You know, it's funny that Davidand I we sort of look at us

(20:59):
we're a little too weird for themain mainstream, but the people
who get us really, really getus, and I can't think of a
better situation to be in, youknow.
Um because it can because I cango walk down to the store, and
every once in a while, you know,whatever big city I'm in, I'll
get, hey, Johnny F and Hickman,hey, hello.
And I'll of course go say hello.

(21:20):
You know, it startles me becauseI'm not used to being that
recognizable, but occasionallyit does happen.
You know, I'll be out at anightclub and people will come
over and say hello and ask me toautograph something, and I can't
think of a better career to havethan that, you know?

SPEAKER_01 (21:35):
Yeah, and you're lucky, as the song says.
I uh that's a great song.
I love the song Lucky.
Um, I like friends, and and youknow, it's funny when you're
doing it, and then sometimes,you know, when you and David do
it, or it's it's just a greatsong.
Uh I love the words.
Is there anything real aboutthat song?

SPEAKER_00 (21:57):
You know, it's funny.
You know, people listen to thesong Friends, and rightfully,
you know, assume oh, that he'she's talking about he and David.
Um, when I started the song, Iwas I was hanging out with
Patterson and Cooley from DriveBy Truckers.
I got on their bus one nightafter a show, and I think
they're they're a fantasticband, fantastic human beings.
I love those guys.
And they they their sort storyis very similar, you know,

(22:19):
they've been friends since theywere youngsters and have always
worked and write written andcreated together.
And so that's kind of whatsparked it.
But yeah, once I got in thereand dug in, sure a pick.
And it, you know, I've I've gota certain sense of humor, and uh
I I kind of knew I couldn't Icouldn't really lose with that
opening line.
I'd never sleep with yourex-girlfriend.

(22:42):
Yes, even if she starts to flirtwith me again, you know, it's
just like what did he just say?

SPEAKER_01 (22:49):
Yeah, I mean it grabs your attention right from
the start.
There's no doubt about that.

SPEAKER_00 (22:53):
Yeah, that's uh that I think that's a good thing to
do, either with a riff or aline, you know.
Like let David, he we does thehe knows he he has that same
sort of instinct.
I offer I hate my generation, Ioffer no apologies.
You know, right now that I'vesaid it, I feel liberated.
Yes.
Oh, that's you know, it's funnyyou mentioned that song earlier.

(23:14):
Um, we were just starting atour, you know, back in the
early days, Counting Crows wasuh a little our little opening
band for a lot of shows.
Um, just this incredibletalented young band.
And even then, when they werejust our little opening band,
you know, Lowry and I are on theside of the stage, these guys
are gonna blow up, I think.
They're just so good.
They got such great songs.
So, and they eventually did, butuh, you know, um, you know, they

(23:38):
would just I like I like that weare able to do that, you know,
with our friends and for peopleand uh like Ike Riley, he
deserves to blow up bigger thanhe is.
So let's let's do shows withIke, you know, let's do shows
with Jim Dalton, you know.
And I hooked Jim Dalton up withRoger Klein, and he's been in
Roger Klein and the Peacemakersfor years now.

(23:59):
You know, I got to be matchmakerthere.
And I love that about the waythat Larry and I operate.
We both are are this way wherewe'll we're joiners, you know,
we join people together, or wejoin with them, and it's just it
just makes for just thiswonderful continuing uh
adventure.
But the song, uh I hate mygeneration, it was funny.

(24:19):
Uh, we were just starting uh,you know, Counting Crow's return
the favor.
Hey, why don't you come over toEurope and we'll do a UK tour
and you guys open for us?
And of course, Larry and I said,Yeah, absolutely.
So, you know, we gave them ajump start at the very beginning
a little bit.
And, you know, by this point,they were kind of blowing up.
They'd sold five or six millionrecords, and they were doing a
tour of the UK, and we hadn'tdid, you know, Cracker hadn't

(24:42):
played in a little while.
So let's let's get a rehearsalday over there.
So we hole up in a rehearsalspace in Ireland, and uh we're
in there just knocking it out.
And uh I came up with that riff,that big, you know, it's another
one of my big bonehead riffs, asDavid calls them.
Um, hopefully a riff that you II get in your head and you can't

(25:03):
get it out.
I strive for that, really.
But when I come up with a riff,I'm not thinking that.
I'm just thinking, okay, it'sanother, it's another riff, it's
another one, one from the riffbank, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (25:12):
It's always in my head.

SPEAKER_00 (25:14):
Oh, thank you.
I started wailing on that riff,and David fall fell in.
And if he found the right chordsto go behind the riff, I'm
wailing on.
And we keep pounding it out, andit was just sort of it was
starting to get some momentum,and it felt good.
And he was sort of over in thecorner, like like yelling and
screaming, not on Mike.
He was just sort of finding hisway.
And I came over, I walked overnext to him as the as the

(25:35):
racket's going on, and I said,What are you yelling?
What are you saying?
And he just looked right at meand right in my ear.
He said, I hate my generation.
I'm like, Oh, there we go.
Now we're in, you know, right.
Yeah, it's a classic.
Oh, thanks, man.
And suddenly it's like, wow,we're the sex pistols right now,
you know.

SPEAKER_05 (25:53):
That's the way they wrote their songs, you know.
Johnny was over in the cornerscreaming, and all of a sudden
they had a tune.

SPEAKER_00 (25:58):
He goes, It's organic, you know.
Uh, yeah, I think a band likeThe Clash, some bands, they one
of the two writers will writeseparately and then they'll
bring it in.
And Dave and I do that too.
I've got a song, I got an idea,you know.
Um, but a lot of them, the thebeautiful organic ones, you
know.
I'm I'm really proud of both ofour solo projects.
I think we've made some great,great solo records.

(26:20):
Um, but I look at the the massbody of work and I think about
songs like I hate my generationor Low or Teen Angst or the song
The Golden Age, the ones that uhwe both had a big, big hand in
the songs.
And those are the ones that justkeep rising to the top, you
know.
And I just feel so fortunatethat for that.

(26:41):
And uh I've talked to somesongwriters who they well, I
have a hard time writing withother people, and other
songwriters who are like us,it's like, wow, I'm so glad I
work with him because itcompletes the ideas I have, or
I'll he'll show me an idea he'sbeen kicking around for a long
time, you know.
And I've got over the years, Igot to be uh, you know, I make a
connection with Tom Petty andthe Heartbreakers.

(27:03):
Rest in peace, Tom.
Everybody, we just miss him somuch.
But through Don Smith, ourproducer, who produced a lot of
the great cracker records, uh,was really tight with Tom Petty
and the Heartbreakers.
He did a lot of engineering andproducing with them, and uh sort
of got us together.
He said, Johnny, you should comemeet Mike.
Okay.
Ended up going to Mike's houseand you know, looking at

(27:24):
guitars.
This guy's just an incredibleguitar collection, and we just
nerded out and played guitarsand hung out.
And uh it was just fabulous.
Mike Campbell is just a youknow, underrated genius
musically, you know, and hewould immediately disagree with
uh no, I'm just a guitar player,I'm a songwriter.
But he's he's verydown-to-earth, but he's just an
incredible talent, and they workthe same way, you know.

(27:47):
Um uh, you know, Mike will have,and Tom even said that, yeah,
Mike will have a riff he'splaying.
And sometimes, yeah, it goesright over my head.
Other times I walk in and I go,Mike, what is that?
Oh, it's just a riff, and itturns into running down a dream,
or it turns into one of thoseincredible uh Mike Campbell Tom
Petty songs.
And uh they just they're justthey work in a very similar

(28:10):
manner.
I read Mike Campbell's book andI went, boy, it's just the same
identical sort of work dynamic.
You know, one of the two willhave an idea and then away they
go.
Um, and it's just incredible.
And I like that.
I I read in an article once thatTom said, yeah, I mean, some
song, some riffs get me rightaway, other ones don't.

(28:31):
But uh, and Mike says, Well, Iplayed them the riffs and the
chord structure to uh you know,the the song with Henley, um
Boys of Summer, you know, rightbecame Boys of Summer, but at
one at that point it was justsort of a riff and an idea, and
Tom kind of went, Yeah, I don'tknow what else you got, you
know.
He didn't, and then uh I guessDon Hanley came by and heard

(28:54):
Mike playing these riffs andchords and wow, what's that?
He says, I don't know, it's justone of something I got.
Henley makes a demo of it, Ithink is the way it went.
Went home and started applyingthose lyrics to it, and they
created one of the biggest hitsof the decade.
You know, I mean that song washuge.
That song was so such a hit thatit went up and down the charts

(29:18):
and did remarkably well.
It was number one and thennumber three, and then and then
it went down and then it wentback up the charts.
You know, it was just one ofthose stories.

SPEAKER_01 (29:27):
Other bands were covering it, and you know, uh I
remember that song because Ilove the line seeing the
deadhead sticker on a Cadillac.
Like I just think that is reallycool.
Like to put that in a pop song,like you know, you don't think
someone's gonna make a referenceto the Grateful Dead, but it's
kind of ironic a Deadheadsticker on a Cadillac, but you

(29:48):
know, at that time, that's kindof how things had changed as
people had grown and you know,matured and so forth.
I I love the Grateful Dead.
You know, I'm not gonna I'm notgonna make any bones of About
that whatsoever.
But what's kind of funny also isthat you talk about, you know,
matching people, you know, bothTom Petty and the Heartbreakers

(30:10):
and Don Henley, they both wentand did songs with Stevie Nicks.
And like how people are able togo and do these different
things.
You know, I'm reading a bookright now, On the Road with the
Ramones, by the Ramones tourmanager, Monty Melnick.
And there is a part wherethey're talking about when Tom
Petty and the Heartbreakersopened up for the Ramones in

(30:32):
1977.
Oh, cool.
You know, what a crazycombination, but it's really
cool to read about.
It really is.

SPEAKER_00 (30:41):
You know, it's it's that's back in the days where
yeah, you'd see double billswhere you kind of go, huh?
You know?
Yes.
Um it was weird in the punk rockdays.
People don't realize there was alittle bit of a snootiness about
some of the punk rock scenes.
You know, it had to be real punkrock or it's just, you know,
blah, blah, blah.
Uh, it was a little with anygenre when it takes off, it's a

(31:03):
little bit of a snootinessaround it and the writers and
sometimes.
Um and uh I remember firsthearing that that first uh Tom
Petty and the Heartbreakersrecord, and just being floored
by how good the songs were andhow good that band sounded.
And I went and saw them live,uh, like the Riverside Gymnasium
on Riverside, and it's just alittle gymnasium gig.

(31:25):
You know, it didn't sound thatgreat and it was all echoey, but
it was magical, you know.
Wow, these guys, and very littleby little the song in
California, the song Breakdownsort of was their you know,
their breakthrough, you know.
Other songs grew out of that onetoo.
Um but uh American Girl ended upbeing like the big song on

(31:47):
there.
But at that time it was a liveversion of Breakdown was getting
played on radio in California onthe college stations and just
hip as hell.
But yeah, and then you know, Ido yeah, I like getting back to
Boys of the Summer.
I think Don Hanley is just afabulous songwriter, and uh so
many great songs out of thatera.
I remember in punk rock days,you know, I I really liked the

(32:08):
Eagles, I really liked you knowtheir stuff and you know, the
punk rock snooty people like,oh, that's old school, that
crappy old produced rock music.
I'm like, no, no, a good song isa good song, uh, regardless of
genre, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (32:20):
I agree with you a hundred percent on that.
And when I was growing up, itwas the same thing, you know, I
like music, but then I would belike, hey, I like Paul McCartney
and Wing silly love songs, andpeople would be like, What?
How can you like that song?
I'm like, I like it.
I can't I can't help it.
I like the song, you know.
I think I love you by thePartridge family.

(32:40):
I like the song, you know.
And and as David Lowry says, Ioffer no apologies, you know,
it's just the way that it is.

SPEAKER_00 (32:49):
You remember being at age being a young teenager
and said, I don't care what youthink.
I like Sugar Sugar by theArchies, you know.
Right.
It's not a real band, it's acartoon band.

SPEAKER_05 (32:59):
Right.
No, it was a catchy tune, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (33:03):
That's one of those riffs.
Right.
I agree.
So Johnny covered that.

SPEAKER_01 (33:08):
Yeah, you you know what?

SPEAKER_00 (33:09):
Maybe you should cover it.
You do a good job of it.
So uh yeah, on HalloweenHalloween night, I'm gonna do uh
I did uh this series when COVIDhit, you know, people couldn't
tour.
So what am I gonna do?
And I was the I was the firstperson that I knew that did this
every Friday night.
I did uh Johnny Hickman Livefrom the Cave in the basement of
my former house.

(33:29):
And I would just go live onFacebook and uh every Friday
night at like you know seveno'clock mountain time, you know,
and uh Friday night from thecave.
And it was, you know, I had 400people listening.
I can you can see how manypeople are checked in, right?
400 people in 2,000.
Then one night there was 6,000people listening.
I thought, wow, this is prettycool, and that that kept up.

(33:51):
It got to a level there was likesix or eight or ten thousand
people listening.
And uh six months later, I wentback, I backtracked and did the
count.
I had over half a millionlistens, views of that little
show I was doing.

SPEAKER_01 (34:03):
That's impressive.

SPEAKER_00 (34:05):
Really low budget, uh, just me singing in the
basement.
And you know, I'm doing youknow, my songs and cracker songs
and Hickman Dalton gang songs,and occasionally I just do like
a Lowry solo song, just reallyhaving fun with it.
I do an Ike Riley song, youknow, and then I started
thinking, well, I'm gonna putsome themes in here.
And then I had HeartbreakFriday, and then I had uh

(34:25):
Wheels, one a show I calledWheels, and it was all songs
about the road on the roadagain, you know.
Uh and you know, just you know,and it just that was the theme:
motorcycles, cars, whatever wayyou hit the road, being on tour
buses and vans.
And I did that was the themeanother night.
Uh and then I had one nightwhere I I called it uh bring me

(34:47):
my medicine.
And that was always hadreferences to drugs, had
references to booze or whatever,sister morphine.
I didn't, you know, I just sortof had I'd get a hold of a theme
and just go with it, you know.
Really, really fun.
And I haven't done it in a longtime.
And everywhere I go on tour withCracker, I had people walking up
and said, Man, thank you fordoing those Friday night shows
during COVID.

(35:07):
You really helped me get throughCOVID.
And uh, you know, we werehousebound, and we'd just every
Friday night we'd sit on thecouch and you know, put Johnny
on the big screen.
And he said, Sometimes it was itwas a janky shit show.
Sometimes I couldn't get themthe mics to work, or and it was
kind of funny.
One of the fans called it thejanky the Johnny's janky shit
show because the the visualwould be on, but you couldn't

(35:29):
really hear it well, or the youknow, vice versa.
You know, it sounded great, butwe couldn't see you.
You're over in the dark, youneed to get a lot more light in
your room there.
Just really just hilarious, youknow, one man production.
But uh, so many people said, YouGod, I really miss that.
That was so much fun.
So uh my girlfriend Jess isgonna help me do it on Halloween
night.
I was gonna do uh I do thisgroup of shows that the fans

(35:52):
call Hickmania in NorthernCalifornia.
Every year, right aroundHalloween, I would do four or
five house shows and they werepacked and it was just over the
top great.
But this year, uh, the planningstages, I got really sick.
I got uh novovirus and got justsick as hell.
I'm coming around now finally,but it it was a bad sorry to
hear.

SPEAKER_01 (36:10):
I know you have been ill and you know, glad to see
that you're on the mend and ableto join us today.

SPEAKER_00 (36:16):
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, I'm back at it.
You know, well, I'm in my 70thyear on the planet here, man.
So things just start goingoccasionally, but overall I'm in
really good shape.
I work out every night when I'mhome.
I eat a pretty healthful diet,you know.
I take pretty good care ofmyself, you know.
Like, well, I've made it to, I'mgonna be 70 next year on my

(36:36):
birthday.
That's pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 (36:39):
Listen, you do not look that.
Honestly, I did not know yourage.
I didn't look it up, but I if Inever would have guessed that.
All right.
And this is coming from someonethat has stood right in front of
you.
We've had our arms around eachother.
I'm talking about there is noway that I ever would have
guessed that your age.
You look fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 (37:00):
Oh, thank you.
As my sons both say, my twoadult sons, yeah, he doesn't
look seven.
He doesn't act it either.
You know, they'll go over to thegym with me and they're like,
God, dad, what how much are youlifting there on the bench?
They go, ah, 200 pounds.
You know, like, I can't evenmove that.
You know, I said, Well, guys,now's the time to start working

(37:20):
out.
You know, I'll do a couple ofmiles on the treadmill and put
on some music, and it's justwhat I do, you know.
Right.
Um, I figure gonna cut cut mylosses.
I'm gonna just, you know, justtry to try to stay as fit as I
can, as they say in England, oh,looking fit.
Yeah, you're looking fit, lad,you know.

SPEAKER_01 (37:37):
So where so on Halloween, where will everybody
be able to listen to you?
Where will they be able to go onFacebook Live or where is this
gonna be?

SPEAKER_00 (37:46):
Yeah, I'm putting that together now.
Uh I just uh uh you know, I'vegot 5,000 people on my files on
my personal page, which is thelimit.
I've usually got a couple ofhundred people in the wings.
And if somebody pisses me off, Ikick them out and pull somebody
else in.
Uh, you know, um, but uh I Ijust uh started another Facebook

(38:06):
Live, and it's the name of thepage is it's a public page, and
it's just called Johnny fromCracker, and that's where I'm
gonna launch from.
So if you uh get on Facebook andyou Google, you know, you sir do
a search on Facebook for Johnnyfrom Cracker, Johnny from
Cracker, um, it'll pop up andI'll be streaming.
Hopefully, my girlfriend, she'sshe's she's really a tech, she's

(38:28):
she's a lot younger than me, andshe's very savvy with the tech.
So she's gonna help me get itlined up and we're gonna do it.
And um, we had our costumes, wehad our costumes already for me
to go do this little mini tour.
Um, you know, we went to the tothe spirit store and got our
costumes, and then the tour kindof fell through because I got
sick.
And I said, baby, let's let'slet's go live anyway.

(38:49):
She said, let's do it.
I'll help you do it.
And so she's gonna fly out fromGeorgia, and we're gonna do
she's flying in Saturday,actually.
And we're gonna put uh we'regonna do this uh Halloween live
the Johnny Hickman live from thecave, the the grand, the grand
return, you know, the return of,you know.
Well, that sounds good.
What time is that gonna be?
It's gonna be uh seven o'clock.

(39:11):
Let me check my poster here.
Yeah, it's got it's seveno'clock mountain time, which
will be nine o'clock east coasttime, nine o'clock yes.
Um yeah, and uh you know, it'llbe six o'clock on the west
coast.
Um, yeah, that's there you go.
And uh you'll you'll be able tofind me.
Uh I'll send you, I'll send youa link.

SPEAKER_01 (39:29):
Yeah, send it and I'll I'll put it out on our
Facebook page and on Instagram,and you know, we'll make sure
that we put a link to the shownotes so people can uh check it
out because I'm sure that it isgoing to be fun.

SPEAKER_00 (39:41):
Oh, thanks, man.
Yeah, it's gonna, it'll be ablast, you know.
And I'll have my bottle of wine,I'll be singing away.
Um when I, you know, it'sHalloween, so okay.
Kind of going with the Halloweentheme.
I could throw a couple of coversin there.
Of course, I'll be doing a lotof cracker songs and my songs,
but uh I'm already working up.
Who's that I see walking inthese woods?

SPEAKER_01 (40:02):
Oh, Little Red Riding Hood.
I I love that song.
I think that song is fantastic.
I mean, that is really, reallystill a good song to listen to
today.

SPEAKER_00 (40:14):
It's just a silly, awesome little pop song.

SPEAKER_01 (40:16):
That's uh Sam the Sham and the Pharaohs?
Am I right?

SPEAKER_00 (40:20):
Yeah, and Jessica, my girlfriend, and I said, Okay,
well, let's go with that theme.
So, you know, I've got I got mywolf ears.
I'm gonna be, I'll I'll let youin on it.
I'm gonna be the wolf uh forthat show, and she's got her
little red riding hood outfiton.
So my girl, and uh working up afew other ones I came up with.
Uh my sister caught up.

(40:40):
She said, Oh, you should do uhspooky.
Oh, spooky.
Yeah, but it's kind of crazywith a spooky little girl like
you.
So that's gonna be one.
Nice, and then I got anotherone, season of the witch,
Donovan.
I like it.
Got a little theme working upthere.
I might do uh speaking of theEagles, I might do Witchy Woman,

(41:03):
uh, see how how she flies.
I might do the Witch Queen ofNew Orleans.
I might have done a whole stringof witch songs just for fun.
I don't know.
Uh you know, I'm just gonna justgonna have fun with it, as I do,
as I will, you know.
And some of the songs may crashand burn and train wreck.
I it doesn't matter, man.
It's live.
It's in the moment.

(41:24):
It's gonna be fun.
Oh, yeah, man.
I'll send I'll send you thelink, man.

SPEAKER_01 (41:28):
Sounds good.
So, Johnny, you mentioned aboutall these songs.
I actually have a song that Iput together that I'd like to do
spoken word.
It's mostly titles from crackersongs.
And I just kind of put ittogether and just thought, you
know what?
I'm gonna debut it live herewith you and see what you think.

(41:49):
And, you know I I could crashand burn.
You know, we'll see.
But it's spoken word, just soyou know.
So I'm gonna go through this.
It's not terribly long, but it'svery cool.
We'll see how it goes.
So are you ready?
I'm honored.
I'm honored.
Yeah, yeah, man.
All right, here we go.
I had teen angst from wonderingwhat the world needs.

(42:11):
Should I call a doctor like Dr.
Bernice?
Seven days when I've beenwaiting, everyone gets one for
free.
Please, oh please, take me downto the infirmary.
Been around the world, yeah.
I've been around the world.
I ride my bike, let's go for aride.

(42:35):
This is cracker stole and don'tforget the crumbs.
This is cracker stole and don'tforget the crumbs.
Been around the world, yeah.
I've been around the world.
Turn on, tune in, drop out withme.

SPEAKER_00 (42:51):
There you go.
Oh, that's sensational, man.

SPEAKER_01 (42:54):
Thank you.
Thank you.
That's my my uh my debut ofcracker title songs.
That's it.
And it was relatively easy todo, I have to be honest.
So it didn't, it didn't takelong to do that.
Um, I know Jimmy had some fearabout me doing that in front of
the big rock star.
I was like, I'm gonna do it.

(43:16):
I'm gonna do it.

SPEAKER_05 (43:17):
He's the most gracious man on the planet.

SPEAKER_01 (43:19):
You know, so let me just say this.
You know, I think I might haveanswered my own question that I
that I asked you in thebeginning of the show.
And I said, what do you think isone of the reasons that you guys
are still around?
And I think really when it comesdown to it, you are extremely
personable.
And both you and David are partof the cracker crumbs and are

(43:41):
are posting stuff and answeringstuff and part of the group.
You know, there's a lot ofthings you do with bands that
it's just some person that youdon't know who it is, and
whatever they want to write,they write.
But you guys really are involvedwith it.
And by doing the camp in, youknow, I know you just did the
camp out uh in September, youknow, uh after a a a number of

(44:03):
years, and really doing thingsto get the fans involved.
And I think that that's what itcomes down to is people like
being part of what's going on,and that's the whole cracker
family, the crumbs, everythingthat that that you guys do.
I think that everyone feels apart of it.

SPEAKER_00 (44:22):
Wow, I I hope so, and thank you.
Um it really is kind of afamily, it's a community, most
certainly.
Um from the get-go, years andyears and years ago, uh, I
remember when I was a punk rockguy, and uh I was right between
two siblings that were big deadfans, okay?
My older sister and my youngerbrother, and they were

(44:45):
deadheads.
And uh finally, punk rock days,I said, Hey, just come see the
dead with us.
All right, yeah, sure.
What I got to lose.
I I like a couple of songs.
Yeah, sure, let's go down.
And I went down to Ventura andthey did a show on the beach,
and it was Jerry's birthday.
And I had so much fun, it was sogreat.
You know, I got my Misfit shirton and my blue hair, you know.

(45:06):
It's like you know, uh early mid80s, I think it was.
Right.
And uh um, you know, I just whenI was sensational, man.
It was so good.
So, you know, I went out andstarted buying dead records, I'm
you know, and really gettinginto them and going to shows.
And then it it, you know, overtime came to pass and we covered

(45:26):
the loser on kerosene hat.
Jerry got a hold of it, reallyliked it, and they invited us to
do three shows opening for them.
And it was sensational.
I'm still meeting people that'sthat say, yeah, I didn't know
who Cracker was, and I saw youopen for The Grateful Dead.
We're not talking Dead andCompany, we're talking the
Grateful Dead.
Right.
When Jerry was still with us,you know, and they were just so

(45:48):
cool to us and we bonded, youknow, and that was another one
of those connections.
And so, yeah, still still, youknow, getting some traction out
of that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (45:58):
Yeah, you know, I mentioned I'm a great uh big
Grateful Dead fan.
You know, I've seen it's funnybecause I tell this on the show
often, you know, I go see Deadin Company or I I saw Billy
Strings and I see differentthings.
I see people with Grateful Deadshirts on.
And I'll say, Oh, that's a coolshirt.
And they'll be like, hey, didyou see Jerry play?

(46:18):
Like, I guess I'm old enoughthat they've realized that I saw
him while he was alive.
And I'm like, yes, I've seenJerry Garcia in person playing,
you know?
And it's um it's it's reallyneat what they've done with Dead
and Company and trying to carrythe torch and do things a little
bit different.
It's not the same by any means,but it's cool.

(46:38):
But when I go and I've seen youguys play and you do lose her,
whoever I am with, I'm like,just listen to this version.
It is so good.
And you really do it while youdo it in your own way, it is so
much like the Grateful Deadversion.

(46:58):
It is just an honor, I think.
You know, honoring them.
And I love your version.
Sometimes people do versionsthat you're like, oh wow, that's
not that good.
But yours is fantastic.
And I think it's one of thoseversions where it comes from
your heart, it comes from yoursoul as you're playing it, and
and and us in the audience, wecan feel it.

SPEAKER_00 (47:20):
Yeah.
Well, I'm glad to hear that.
Yeah, it's one of those songs wedon't do a lot of covers, but
the ones we do choose to do, Imean, we we try to really get
inside the soul of the song andkind of make it our own.
But yeah, that one, uh I lovethe fact that it's got these big
wide open areas for solos, whichof course I'll do different
every time, a different guitarsolo.

(47:42):
Uh, I've played mandolin on itlive.
And Ann Harris, our ourviolinist, uh, when we do that
song live now, it features heron a beautiful song.
And she and I will get sort of aconversation going between
violin and uh and guitar, andthat's one of the songs that
really uh highlights what we'reable to do live.
So if you get a chance to seewith see us with Ann Harris,

(48:04):
boy, you're yeah, you're in fora treat.
She's sensational.

SPEAKER_01 (48:06):
Yes, and I I've seen you a few times with Ann Harris.
Um I got to see Cannon actuallyplay with you guys on Pedal
Steel.
Yeah, yeah.
I saw him at 40 watt, but I alsosaw him with you guys in uh in
uh North Carolina in Murphy.
Oh cool, yeah.
And it was uh and pistol, youknow, before him.

(48:30):
And you know, it was such aneye-opener when Ann Harris came
out and what she was able toprovide.
And you the two of you really dohave a great chemistry.
It's a lot of fun.
I think, you know, a lot oftimes when you go see bands,
everything has to be perfect.
It's got to be the solo startsat this moment and it ends at

(48:52):
this moment because the lightsare gonna do this and the singer
knows he's supposed to startsinging, and it becomes very
mechanical, and it's not thatway with you guys at all.
It's just, you know, sometimesyou guys are doing and you're
ready to end, and David willkind of like, nah, just keep
going, you know, and I lovethat, you know.
I think that's a lot of fun.
It really is.

SPEAKER_00 (49:12):
Yeah, we have certain songs that just ebb and
flow, grow and shrink.
Uh they're maybe a littlefaster, maybe a little slower.
It's just on the mood.
There's certain songs that we'repretty much going to play them
as they are in the album, youknow, like this.
We're one of those bands thatdoesn't think they're too cool
to think they're too cool toplay their hits.
We always play the hits.
So this is these are the songsthat put us on the map, you

(49:33):
know.
It's another one of the thingsthat Larry and I talked about
when we started writing songstogether and starting to put the
band together.
Let's never be one of thosebands that just thinks they're
too cool.
If we're lucky to have hits, youknow.
And uh, you know, that's theadvice I give to younger bands.
It's like if you got a song ortwo that are the ones that put
you on the map, it's probably apretty good idea, good idea to

(49:55):
play them.
You know, and I remember earlyon, this may be somebody's first
cracker show.
And you know, we're gonna go allover the place, but at some
point they're gonna go, Oh, Iknow this song.
Oh, that's these guys?
Okay.
And you almost sense that whenthat when that happens.
So yeah, if you're lucky enoughto have some signature songs,
yeah, you should absolutely dothem live, you know.

(50:17):
Um and uh so yeah, I mean, it'sjust uh so we have a we have
we're we're we're blessed.
We have a little bit of both.
We have signature songs thatpeople know are okay, these are
these cracker songs that I know,Euro Trash Girl, or what have
you.
Um and there are other songsthat we that come in and out and
uh become somebody's favoriteafter they see us live.

(50:38):
And I love that.
I mean, it's just yeah, there'sno rules.
There's no rules in cracker.
Uh well, there is.
David and I very early on said,okay, the only rule, David said,
the only rule is don't suck.
And that's a good rule, right?
Yeah, exactly.
Just know what you know whatyou're doing up there, and uh
surrounding ourselves withamazingly talented people is a

(50:59):
big part of that, you know.

SPEAKER_05 (51:01):
Well, it seems to me, you know, that you guys
stayed true to yourselves and toto what you had between you and
David and made songs that youboth like.
You know, you weren't you'renever chasing something when
grunge was big, like you talkedabout earlier.
You got a lot of people wouldhave said, Oh, we need to be
more grunge.
That's what's hot right now.
And then you would have been aband that, you know, was kind of
coming across maybe as notgenuine, right?

(51:23):
But you guys just what you tackthe other direction.

SPEAKER_00 (51:27):
Yeah, because go with your gut, and uh and it's
another thing that David saidearly on.
He said, I just figure if Ireally like it, somebody else
out there is gonna like it, youknow.
It's a very simple concept, butit's it's really true.
If you believe in it and you'rehaving a good time playing it
and creating it, uh, thenthere's somebody else who's
gonna connect to it too.

(51:48):
And fortunately, we've had that.
Yeah, I remember when we firststarted the band and we were
working on the songs for brand,you know, for Cracker, the first
song.
You know, I came in with Mr.
Wrong, which is kind of a flatout Bakersfield country song,
right?
And David really loved the song,and I said, Well, you should
sing it, you know.
So I tossed it off to him, youknow, and we were just writing

(52:10):
all different kinds of things,writing some together and some
separately.
But if you really think aboutbreaking it down into
sub-genres, um, it's kind of allover the map.
I mean, it's got Teen Anx, whichis almost kind of a punk rock
roaring, big, crazy thing.
It's got Happy Birthday to Me,which is very, very pop.
It could have been, you know,uh, you know, one of those 70s

(52:32):
pop bands.
And then you got Mr.
Wrong, and you got these sort ofthings.
And uh Dr.
Bernice, you know, as a waltz.
It's a crazy weird waltz.
And uh I remember the you know,uh Virgin Records, especially
the English people from thelabel, so well, we don't really
know how we're gonna market you.
Do we put you with country?
Do we put you with uh rock?

(52:54):
I mean, you're really notgrunge.
And we said, Well, it's we havewe just make cracker music, man.
You do whatever you want, youknow.
Uh but it they sort of theEnglish uh label people saw it
as a little bit of a challenge.
I said, No, I I understand whatyou're saying, sure, I get it.
But uh just put the record out.
Yeah, it's a it's you know, andthen there were a few.

(53:14):
Oh, these guys are all over themap.
I don't know what kind of musicthey are.
Good.
It's cracker music, all right?

SPEAKER_01 (53:19):
You know, yeah, yeah, it is.
So speaking of the early days,and I know we're running short
on time here, but the other daya video, you know, popped up,
and it was a 1992 video ofCracker doing teen angst on the
Dennis Miller show.
And wow, you and David were likeextremely fresh faced.

(53:43):
You were super young, and youhad like a bushel of hair going.
I mean, you you had so muchhair.
And I was like, wow.
And then that that look you hadwith the with the pants and the
shorts combination, that wasawesome.
I loved it.
I I mean I did.
Um and then you guys playedanother video that came on where

(54:05):
you played on uh Jules Holland.
And I I'm a huge Jules Hollandfan.

SPEAKER_02 (54:10):
Oh, you did a great show.

SPEAKER_01 (54:11):
You did the Jules Holland show and did low.
What was it like being on thatshow?
So for people that don't know,there's like five or six bands
that they have on, and everybodytakes a turn, you're all kind of
like standing in the same room.
What was that experience like?

SPEAKER_00 (54:25):
I really like that the format.
It was kind of crazy.
I think I can't even rememberwho we were on with at uh Jules
Holland.
I think it might have been likeFine Young Cannibals, um, might
have been cranberries.
I'm thinking of bands rightaround that time.
Yeah, and the camera pans aroundand this band does a song, they
go over here and this band doesa song, and our little quick
clips of interviews.

(54:46):
Well, Jules would talk to thethe bands.
Really cool, cool format.
I loved it.
Um, yeah, and we're, you know,to us, of course, we're like,
wow, this is so English.
I love it.
It's so English.
Uh, but it was really just kindof universal.
But yeah, what a great premise,you know, and what a great idea
that man had, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (55:02):
Oh, yeah.
You know, he was in Squeeze, andI'm a big squeeze fan.
But he also, speaking of fineyoung cannibals, he did the
piano on the song Good Thing,the song from 1988, if you
didn't know.
Very cool.
He did the the Uncertain Smilepiano as well.
Um just some some really coolthings there.

(55:25):
But so, you know, we reallyappreciate you coming on the
show today, Johnny.
I know that um, you know, youhaven't felt well, and you know,
it's great to have you on.
It's fantastic to, you know,hear some backstories and hear
just different things about theband and about yourself.
You know, we're looking forwardto Halloween where we can uh

(55:46):
check out you know what you gotplanned with your Halloween
costumes and the songs thatyou're gonna be doing, and that
sounds like it'll be a lot offun.
And um it's just really, reallycool.
And um, what about Crazy Sloth?
I know that's something that youjust started.
What what can you tell us alittle bit about that quick?

SPEAKER_00 (56:04):
Yeah, I haven't been able to jumpstart it as much as
I wanted to because I did getsick.
Um, but uh yeah, I'll probablyget back to it.
Yeah, I uh I was doing uh I wasat a recording studio, a little
house recording studio here, um,playing on an Ike Riley track.
Ike came to town and we'reworking, these are people that
he knew.
So we're over there working onan Ike song, and uh I ended up

(56:27):
playing like uh I think I endedup playing bass and guitar and
doing some.
I said, I'm gonna create afemale backing vocal part for
you here.
He goes, Well, who are thegirls?
I go, they'll be me, but it'llsound like girls.
Well, do you trust me?
And he and Ike's telling the thestudio guys, oh, it's Hicker.
He let him go.
He's gonna, he's got an idea, gowith it.
So we in there and we're havinga blast and we're making this

(56:47):
music.
And uh some of the guys thatwere hanging out and the
engineers said, We hear you werethinking about putting together
a Colorado band.
You know, I said, Yeah, I'mthinking about it.
And they kind of said, Well, Ithink it could be us, you know.
So um I did, we did, we didstart forming Crazy Sloth, and
they came out and played campout with me.
You know, I flew the guys outthere, and yeah, just now I've

(57:09):
got uh a band here in Colorado,and uh certainly not if we're
doing shows with crack with withcracker, but when we do songs,
we do shows on our own here inColorado, you know, I'll I'll
pull out the the cracker hitsbecause I co-wrote them, you
know, they're my songs too.
So we'll do Mo and Teen Angstand some of these songs and a
lot of my solo stuff and anoccasional cover.

(57:31):
It's just fun.
I wanted to have a band that Icould play with when I'm home,
you know, uh on the stretchesbetween cracker tours and
cracker projects.
And they're just sensationalplayers.
And uh little younger than me,that's great.
They can give me a little goodkick in the oh, give the old guy
a kick in the ass.
Um, so yeah, that's what that'sabout.
Just I wanted to do someregional things.

(57:52):
And uh Colorado's just, I mean,I've been here 20 years, I'll
never leave.
I absolutely love Colorado andum connected really, really well
connected with the music sceneshere, and you know, um yeah, so
that's Crazy Sloth.
It's uh just Johnny Hickman andCrazy Sloth.
You know, sort of I sort ofdesigned it after my hero Neil
Young and Crazy Horse.

(58:14):
Oh, okay.
That's where that came from.
But the name Crazy Sloth's got apretty funny uh origin because
uh when Dave and I were firstwriting songs together, he
mentioned when they said, youknow, you write these really
catchy riffs, but a lot of themare these big slow riffs, you

(58:34):
know.
So I took the opportunity towrite the slowest riff ever
written, which is the riff toDixie Babylon.
And it's a guitar riff, but it'sreally slow.
And I just and he thought thathe kind of got a kick out of
that.
He said, Yeah, you're likecrazy, Neil Young, crazy horse,
but you're crazy sloth.
And so he kind of used it.
It was back in the day because Iwas writing these big, heavy,

(58:55):
slow riffs, you know, and uh andI always always kind of stuck in
my head.
So then when it came time to putthe band together, oh crazy
sloth, yeah.
Johnny Hickman and Crazy Sloth,you know, we use the sloth as
the logo, and you know, and offwe go.
We'll see what happens withcrazy sloth next year.
So when uh when uh cracker's notworking, I'll probably be here
doing stuff with with crazysloth, you know, playing around

(59:17):
Colorado.
We had our first show up inGolden, Colorado at uh like an
outdoor venue.
And I thought, well, you neverknow, it's our first show.
But I guess word had gotten outbecause they were crumbs that
came from Montana and from youknow Utah and all over Colorado.
And uh the owner of the placesaid, Well, that's just full as
this place has been in a while.
I went, Well, have us back, man.

SPEAKER_01 (59:39):
You know, there you go.
That's awesome.
That really is.
It's I I think it's really coolto be able to have those outlets
for yourself that you can stillplay and maybe do something a
little bit different than whatyou're normally doing or what
your other side projects are.
So uh good luck with that.
I hope it continues to go well.

SPEAKER_00 (59:56):
Thank you.
Uh it's been just so greattalking with you guys, Jim and
Jimmy.
Yeah.
Well thank you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:00):
We seriously, we really appreciate you coming on.
And you know, I wish it wasalmost time for camping again,
because I can't wait for it tobe.
I'm not trying to rush time, butit's just such a fun thing to
do.
I take a couple of days off ofwork and it's just a fun, good
thing.
So again.
Yeah, thank you.
We we really do appreciate it,Johnny.

(01:00:23):
My pleasure.
That was awesome having JohnnyHickman of Cracker on the show
with us.

SPEAKER_05 (01:00:27):
Such a great guy.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:28):
And if you want to reach out to us and mention
something about the show thatyou thought was cool, whether it
was about Johnny or not, pleasefeel free, musicinmyshoes at
gmail.com.
Please like and follow the Musicin My Shoes Facebook and
Instagram pages.
That's it for episode 102 ofMusic in My Shoes.
I'd like to thank JohnnyHickman, singer-guitarist of

(01:00:51):
Cracker.
Fantastic person.
I'd also like to thank JimmyGuthrie, show producer and owner
of Arcade 160 Studios, locatedright here in Atlanta, Georgia.
He's a fantastic person also.

SPEAKER_05 (01:01:06):
Aww.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:06):
And Vic Thrill for our podcast music.

SPEAKER_05 (01:01:09):
He's a fantastic person too.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:10):
There he is.
This is Jim Voges, and I hopeyou learned something new or
remembered something old.
We'll meet again on our nextepisode.
Until then, live life and keepthe music playing.