March 2, 2025 • 56 mins
Join us as Lenny Kaye of Patti Smith Group and Kevn Kinney of Drivin N Cryin, join us in studio for an insightful conversation. This episode highlights their inspiring friendship between them, showcasing their mutual influence on each other's artistic journeys.
• Discover the moments that bonded Kevn and Lenny in the music scene
• Reflect on Patti Smith's 'Horses' and its historical significance
• Explore the relationship between poetry and rock music
• Hear about the spontaneity and magic of live performances
• Discuss the importance of versatility in artistic expression
• Understand how early experiences shaped their identities as musicians
• Learn about their perspectives on musical collaboration
• Delve into memories of the legendary CBGB club
• Reflect on the journey of understanding and evolving through music
"Music in My Shoes" where music and memories intertwine.
Learn Something New or
Remember Something Old
Please Like and Follow our Facebook and Instagram page at Music In My Shoes.
You can contact us at musicinmyshoes@gmail.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
He's got the feeling in his toe-toe.
He's got the feeling and it'sout there growing.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Hey everybody, this is Jim Boge and you're listening
to Music In my Shoes.
That was Vic Thrill kicking offepisode 68.
As always, I'm thrilled to behere with you.
Let's learn something new, newor remember something old.
I'm really excited about thisepisode Joining us in studio.
Okay, in the studio with ustoday.
(00:54):
Friend of the show, kevinKinney yes, and Lenny K, music
journalist, underground garageman and happens to be the
guitarist for the Patti SmithGroup.
Welcome, gentlemen, welcome.
We appreciate you being here sothe first thing I have to ask is
(01:16):
how did you two become friends?
You know, kenny, kenny, I'mcalling him Kenny.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
I took Kevin and Lenny and mixed it into Kenny.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Oh, I like that.
All right, that's our new group.
That's our new group.
Him, kenny.
I took Kevin and Lenny andmixed it into Kenny.
Oh, I like that.
I like that, that's our newgroup.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
That's our new group, Kenny.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
So how did you two become?
Speaker 4 (01:31):
friends, I believe that you came to visit me once
when I lived on the Bowery, whenyou were looking for record
producers for Driving and Crying.
I think so, yeah, and you kindof visited me, but I believe the
first time we really had a hangwas when Patty and the band
played in Atlanta at that wackyfestival in the middle of
(01:53):
somewhere.
Oh right yeah, and Bob Dylanwas also on the bill.
That's right, and we stood bythis side of the stage and we
were bonded forever.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
That's right, it's kind of.
We're kind of I really don'tremember, but we have a mutual
friend called Tom Clark.
I think I've talked about Tombefore.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
I've actually seen you and Tom Clark play.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah, at Eddie's.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
At.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Eddie's yes, yes, jimmy, you were there too, I was
there, yeah.
So me and Tom, we had a pissingmatch one day when I was playing
at the Mercury Lounge and Iwent over to Tom's bar and I
said yeah, you know, I got LennyCase sitting there and he goes
oh yeah, yeah, he's just my bestman.
Yeah, well, that's pretty cool.
(02:34):
But I've been a huge fan of thePatti Smith group, of course,
and of Lenny's writings, andhe's a fantastic writer.
He's written some greatarticles and books and that was
all before really you got intoscience fiction.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Patty Smith, you did a lot of journalism.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
Yeah, but I still do.
I mean, I've always written andI've always played music
because I feel like there's alot of combination between the
two.
A great sentence has rhythm andmelody, a great guitar solo has
a narrative arc and I'm reallyhappy to kind of move back and
forth between the things.
But it was writing that broughtPatty and me together, because
(03:13):
she called me up one day aftershe read an article I wrote for
Jazz and Pop magazine in 1970called the Best of Acapella,
which was kind of like thetwilight of doo-wop, and it
spoke to her from the music shelistened to when she grew up in
South Jersey.
And so she started visiting mein the record store where I
(03:36):
worked and asked me to be a partof her first poetry reading at
St Mark's.
And out of that little acorn agreat oak grew.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
You're not kidding, You're not kidding at all.
I mean, that's a pretty coolaccomplishment to start off that
way and then to have Horses,which is celebrating its 50th
anniversary.
I know crazy.
It makes it to number 26 onRolling Stone's top 500 albums
of all time, and I just findthat just amazing.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
You find it amazing, I find it astonishing.
I mean, you know, a rogue pieceof work like that still sounds
completely like nothing else.
Before or since that weactually had a rock band Because
we didn't set out oh yeah,let's have a rock band and do
this.
We had some weird cabaret triowith Richard Soul and we had a
(04:34):
lot of weird improvisation, kindof following Patty's stream of
consciousness, and it was justkind of remarkable that by the
time we had a rock and roll band, when we added our drummer, jd
Darity, we sounded likeourselves instead of some other
random generic rock band.
But who knew?
(04:55):
I mean, really the best thingyou can do in this life is just
follow your instincts and try tomake sure that what you do is
pure.
Just follow your instincts andtry to make sure that what you
do is pure, and I've been prettyfortunate to be able to do that
my creative life, no matterwhat I do One question I have
being part of her first poetryreading you did at St Mark's.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Was that rehearsed?
Was that just you improvisingwith her poetry?
What was that like?
Speaker 4 (05:22):
We had about two rehearsals.
She was living in a loft on23rd Street with Robert
Mapplethorpe and she was kind ofinvolved with Sam Shepard, the
playwright, who suggested shewanted to shake up her first
poetry reading, you know,because she knew that Gregory
Corso would be in the audienceand if it was boring he'd be
(05:45):
hooting and hollering thingsfrom the balcony.
So we were friendly.
She would come over and I'd puton our favorite records Bristol
Stomp by the Dovelles or myHero by the Blue Notes, and we'd
dance around and Sam suggestedthat maybe she could recruit the
guy from the record storebecause he knew I played a
little guitar.
(06:05):
So I went over to her loft andshe would recite her poems and I
just played totally simplechords, kind of rhythmic.
I wasn't a virtuoso.
Let's try this minor seventhdiminished twelfth.
I just kind of chugged alongbehind her and followed how she
breathed, which I think I stilldo.
(06:27):
That's kind of what we do.
And we did this poetry reading.
It was pretty well received bythe hundred people that were in
St Mark's Church, some Warholpeople, some from the rock
writing world, some of Robert'sfriends.
But it wasn't meant to be athing.
(06:48):
We did it once in February of1971, and we didn't perform
again together until 1973 inNovember Wow, when she did
another poetry reading and shecalled me up and said instead of
doing Mac the Knife, let's doHank Ballard's Thrill Upon the
(07:10):
Hill.
Then we started getting gigs atopening up in folk clubs and
just doing whatever it is we did.
We never really tried to makeit anything more than what it
was.
We knew that people werefascinated, especially when
Patty would go off on theseflights of fancy and me and
Richard Soule would be runningthe chords of three chords
(07:34):
behind her and dark and light.
Without a drummer you couldslow things down and then speed
them up and we had an effect,but we really didn't know how to
even deal with it.
So, you know, it was just liketrial and experimentation and
not trying to force it intobeing anything.
(07:56):
That to me is really key.
You know, we just let itorganically happen.
A lot of our early songs, likeFree Money or something, they
were just like cycles of chordsthat as we played them live, the
arrangements would kind of, youknow, emerge, gloria, you know
we didn't sit in the practiceroom and say we're going to go.
You know, and everybody hitthat it just started and then we
(08:18):
all kept remembering it.
It was a beautiful process andhopefully you know, it's a way
that we've continued having theband for all these years,
because we try not to be toosmart for ourselves, we just try
to do what seems natural andforward motion.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
So let me ask you this Do you know how good horses
is?
Do you know how good Horses is?
Do you know Like and I knowthat sounds kind of funny, but
the connection that people havehad, because it's connected with
both critics as well as theregular, you know, just fan base
and to people like myself notthat I listened to it in 75, but
(09:02):
I started to hear it in thelater 70s and the connection
that it made to all thesedifferent people, do you ever
say like, wow, I say wow.
Do you come across?
Speaker 4 (09:17):
as really humble with everything.
I say wow all the time becauseto me when I listen to Horses I
hear a very young band strainingat the bit, not really sure
what we're doing.
A lot of the songs grew.
I mean, birdland started out asa three-minute poem with a
musical accompaniment and wewanted to record it live and
John Kell kept saying, if youwant to do it live, you really
(09:40):
got to do it.
And he just kept pushing us andthe song got longer and longer
and really happened in thestudio.
I feel I hear our innocence, oursense of possibility.
But I think and I hear a reallyweird record.
I mean I listen to Horses, Ithink what the hell?
But I think what it representedto people say, like Kevin or
(10:03):
Michael Stipe or any of the manypeople who have come up to me
over the years and bought me abeer, thank you.
Is that sense of you can dosomething your own way, that
thing that Patty says about thesea of possibilities.
All you got to do is dive inand swim around and find out who
(10:25):
you are.
And I think that empowers a lotof people.
I mean I love all our recordsthe Black Sheep of Radio
Ethiopia and our hit recordEaster.
And this is the 70s stuff,because I also think that the
music that we've made in the now30 years since Patty's returned
(10:49):
from Detroit and, of course,her record with Fred Sonic Smith
, is also beautiful.
People have the Power has beensung all over the world as an
empowering anthem.
You know, it's all exploration,but what I like most is the
people who've been touched byhorses and influenced by it.
Don't sound at all like horsesand that's what I like.
(11:10):
You know it's like.
You know Bono comes up to meand oh yeah, you know you too
doesn't sound anything like us,but they took that spirit of
illumination and applied it tothemselves and it made them
become.
I mean, michael Stipe is oftentalked about when he heard, or
(11:32):
Peter Buck when they heardhorses.
It allowed them to bethemselves and that's a great
honor.
I wouldn't want people to doany of the songs on horses
sideways.
It's a pretty bizarre record,but in the end Patti is a
magical person.
(11:53):
I've been privileged to stand tothe left of her for more than
half a century now.
I've never, ever seen her singa false note.
I've never seen her just gointo show.
I mean she likes to put on ashow, but it's never like
divorced from the emotion behindit and she always tries to get
(12:14):
a moment during the show that'sunique to that particular show
that the people can take out ofthere and take to heart.
And really all I have to do istry to get that door open before
she rushes through it.
With whatever she's doing, it'sa great privilege to watch her,
I mean in anything.
(12:35):
I mean two nights ago she did apoetry reading at U of Penn.
She asked me to come downbecause she thought she could
use a little companionship.
And you know she's reading fromher beautiful books I mean an
incredible, incredible writer,and you know.
And then we illustrate it witha couple songs, kind of the same
thing we did back in 1974.
(12:55):
And you know she's present, sheis really present and you know,
as we know, the present is agift.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
That it is.
So you mentioned Bono.
I have to be honest, the songDancing Barefoot Right.
I forgot about the song untilU2 released it.
It was like a B-side of asingle and all of a sudden I
remembered how much I liked thatsong.
I guess I just hadn't heard itor whatever, and that is just.
I could listen to that song allthe time I love it.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
It's a beautiful song .
I mean, I'm very proud.
You know, we don't have a lotof hits.
Really, the only real hit wehad was Because of the Night,
which is, you know, you can'tbeat that chorus.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
I'm sorry.
So what's the story with thesong?
So Bruce Springsteen wrote someof it, didn't have all of it,
couldn't finish it.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
He was piling up the songs for what would become
Darkness at the Edge of Town andJimmy Iovine, our producer.
This was his first productionbefore he became Mega.
Jimmy had worked with Bruce onBorn to Run and so they were
friendly and I kind of knewBruce.
I saw him play in 1969 inAsbury Park in a group called
(14:12):
Child.
He did a 10-minute version ofSeason of the Witch on a black
Les Paul.
That blew me away.
So I was in his fan club, eventhough he didn't even put out a
record for another three years.
My friend and I once went to thesurfboard factory where he was
living.
My friend was a guitar playerfrom Newark hey, where can we go
(14:36):
, jam?
And he told us someplace.
He was living in a room threeby five.
But we're friendly and he's inone studio working on Darkness
and we're in another studio atthe record plant and Jimmy
always wanted us to do a hit.
You know, but you know I'm outin the studio playing some
(14:56):
chords and he rushed those aregreat, keep it going.
And it turns out to be GhostDance, which is not a hit by any
means, except for the people.
But he knew that there was thissong that Bruce had a great
chorus on and some mumbledlyrics about you know, I work
all day in the hot sun, you knowBruce lyrics and he finally
(15:18):
talked Bruce into letting Pattyhave the song and you know,
write the lyrics and write thelyrics in her voice.
And she resisted it because shewanted us to write our own
songs.
But one day, as she likes totell it, when she was waiting
for a phone call from Fredbecause we didn't have cell
(15:40):
phones in those days, it wasexpensive, so they had a once a
week.
He was in Detroit, she's in NewYork and he didn't call for
phones in those days.
So you know it was expensive.
So they had a once a week.
He was in Detroit, she's in NewYork, and he didn't call for
like a few hours.
And so she put on the cassetteand oh, she says it's a darn hit
song.
And so she wrote the lyrics andby the time she finished them,
freddie called and the rest ishistory.
(16:02):
Or as I like to say, herstory.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
There you go, you know.
The song is number 358 onRolling Stone's top 500 songs of
all time.
I mean again for people thatweren't looking to do you know
any great things.
There's a lot of great thingsthat happen.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
Well, it's a real honor and it's a privilege.
Both Patty and I try not tolook at the scorecards of where
our song falls in something orother, because personally I like
all our songs and those are themost obvious.
I mean to me, when I listen toRadio Ethiopia, I think, man,
(16:45):
that is more akin to certain ofour aesthetic sensibilities than
having a, you know, top 40anthem, but it's great to play
it.
One of the things about Pattyand us is that we refuse to be
defined.
You know, I mean we have alittle bit of everything.
You know, punk rock, well, youknow, that's kind of one of the
(17:05):
places we came from.
You know, we also came fromfree jazz.
We also came from great dancemusic Motown and the Rolling
Stones and Pink Floyd and thoughnot really, you know, noticed
Grateful Dead, really noticedGrateful Dead.
(17:32):
I mean to see the Grateful Deadkind of morph these songs and
get them to the place we alwayscalled it out there like Sun Ra,
where you kind of releaseyourself from melody and then
you release yourself from rhythmand you're just playing sound
against sound.
If you listen to the tale ofRadio Ethiopia, you know the
Abyssinia part.
You know we didn't have thatscript, we just came upon it and
kind of wrote it wherever itwould go, and that, to me, is
(17:56):
the magic of music.
And you know we don't want tobe defined, as Patty said in the
liner notes to horses.
You know, beyond gender, beyondpolitics, beyond definition,
because I remember when I was akid listening to Mayo and the
Red Crayolas album on theInternational Artists, and they
(18:16):
had a quote on the back and itsays definitions define limit.
And yeah, so I'm known for know,nobody could tell I'm known for
garage rock.
Okay, I understand that.
But I love all kinds of musicand I access all that kind of
music when I play the guitar orsing a song or whatever, because
(18:40):
as soon as you define yourself,it's over.
You've figured it out.
I never want to be figured out.
I want to keep surprisingmyself, because that's how you
grow.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Yeah, you know, it's funny.
You say that when I firststarted thinking about doing the
podcast, I was like you knowwhat am I going to talk about?
What's that box that I'm goingto be in?
And a good friend of mine,chris Cassidy, said you don't
need to be in the box becauseyou like so much.
Just talk about the things thatyou want to talk about.
Regardless, if you think that'swhat people want to hear, just
(19:15):
talk about the things, and ifyou're entertaining, they'll
listen.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
And there's so much of it out there.
I mean, Kevin and I are drivinghere.
Were you crying or just driving?
No, we're laughing.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
One of the things, kevin and I do.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
I thought that was a funny joke.
No one thought it was funny.
It was almost funny, Jim.
It was almost funny.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Ha, ha ha.
Thank you, lenny.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
I appreciate that.
Oh you know.
So yesterday I'm driving to theairport to come down here and
I'm listening to WFMU, thegreatest radio station in the
world, and they play this DonnyHathaway song called I Love you
More Than you Ever Know, which Ididn't know.
I never even thought much aboutDonny Hathaway, except as a
(19:53):
duet with Roberta Flack.
So you know, Kevin, and Ilisten to Donny Hathaway and
just like whoa, you know,there's so much out there.
You know, oh, I'm only a rockand roll person or I'm only a
garagic person, when really, youknow, you find something great.
I go down every single rabbithole.
(20:15):
Mostly, I really love Jamaicanmusic.
That's kind of my go-towhenever I'm home.
I'm especially into this newgenre that I've discovered
called Jamaican gospel, which isreally bizarre.
Check out Lucy Myers sometime.
I will.
She will move.
(20:36):
She will make you a Christian.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
You know, I just discovered Jamaican mento music
recently.
Isn't that so cool?
It's like proto-reggae.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
Oh yeah, you know ska blue.
I mean it's just a reallyinteresting.
You know, it's just aninteresting music.
I've never been to Jamaica butI'm hoping to go in December for
the first time.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Oh, that would be good.
Yeah, so, speaking ofinteresting, the two of you are
playing with Peter Buck, which Ifind is interesting.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
Kevin, I've seen you and Peter Buck play.
It's a menage a trois.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
What should we expect ?
What is it that adding Lenny?
What makes it different?
What is that all about?
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Like Lenny was saying , I just like to combine things.
I like organic, we arecertified 100% organic, gmo free
, or whatever.
I like organic, we arecertified 100% organic, gmo-free
, or whatever I like to.
Just I just did a tour with myfriend, bobby Bear Jr, in these
residencies.
I do, it's just about.
(21:36):
I like people who are certifiedorganic and just have good
spirit.
I have no idea what's going tohappen tonight.
I know that the basis for whatI'm going to do every time I
have a guest at Eddie's is tojust listen.
So I'm going to do a song,lenny's going to do a song, I'll
do a song, lenny will do a song, and then I'll feed, he'll do a
(21:57):
song and I'll think ofsomething while he's playing
that might complement it, orsomething like that.
So I have no idea what's goingto happen.
I just love to live in themoment and just let it expand.
Let it go.
Lenny's going to play someguitar.
He has no idea what he's goingto play.
I don't know what I'm going toplay.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
It's just so.
But, kevin, we have the dancers, we have the dancers, we have
dancers, choreograph.
We have the the dancers, wehave the dancers, we have
dancers, choreograph, we havethe special effects.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
We have the dancing waters.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
I don't know if they're canceled or not, but
that's one of the reasons why Igo to the shows, go to your
shows, because I have no ideawhat's going to happen when.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
I go, and neither does the band.
My band has no idea what'sgoing to happen either, whether
it's Driving and Crying, or it'sKevin Kinney.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
I don't know if you're going to be acoustic.
I don't know if you're going tobe with a full band Kevin
Kinney band.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
I think what Lenny said earlier about horses was
spot on.
It was just the essence of whatthe evening is the essence of
the music People who love horses.
You won't hear John Caffrey ofBeaver Brown Band doing
(23:15):
Springsteen.
Remember that.
It was really bad, but youassimilate the essence of the
evening.
Whatever happens between nowand the showtime was going to
affect the show.
So I had an epiphany aboutmusic and local bands coming to
(23:38):
your town when I went to see U2at the Sphere and I love U2.
I think they're one of my.
I went to see U2 at the Sphereand I love U2.
I think they're one of myfavorite bands to see live.
It's a spiritual moment.
But when I saw them I wasdisconnected watching them in
Vegas because he wasn't speakingto my people about what was
happening in that moment and Ifelt weird being in Vegas and
(24:02):
there's people from all over theworld here and I didn't get
that emotional connection that Iget when he comes to Atlanta or
when people come to your townand they're singing to everybody
in Philly and they're singingto everybody in California.
There's a beauty to that.
It's important to come out andsee live music in your towns.
(24:25):
And then we've got Lenny K inAtlanta.
Last time he was here we did afew things at the Fox.
We did a little thing, butLenny's got some great songs.
He's constantly writing andrecording too.
Keep moving the ball forward,keep looking to the future,
(24:45):
writing songs from his heart andsharing his story.
We'll be sharing our story onstage.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
And I know it will be good, because it always is good
.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Well, you know, I always remind my fans.
The only guarantee that I giveat every show is that at some
moment you will be disappointed.
There will be a brief momentwhere you'll be like, oh,
tonight will be different.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
Tonight will be different tonight will be
different will be fantastic, ifonly those flash pots go off at
the right time.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
If it doesn't, it's over.
And then you add Peter Buck tothe mix, who is just Peter Buck.
He's not going to do anyblistering guitars, but just
having his essence in the roomand strumming.
Like I've said a million timesbefore, there's G.
All of us could strum a G chordand it would all sound
(25:42):
different.
It's just the essence of yoursoul coming through your fingers
.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
And talk about somebody that didn't set out to
start a traditional rock band.
The beginning of REM it waslike they were all just going in
new directions and it came outsounding like a new kind of rock
band, but that's not reallywhat they were trying to do.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
I don't think any of us knew what we're doing.
Speaker 4 (26:04):
That's just the beauty of it is.
Every time I think I know whatI'm doing, it doesn't end well
Right.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
Well, speaking of Peter Buck, last time you were
on the show you started to talkabout how a lot of your rock
star friends have great shoesand one of the people.
Do you remember theconversation?
I think so.
One of the people you mentionedwas Peter Buck.
So when I saw the two of you upin Chattanooga back in January,
because of the way the seatsand the way the stage was
elevated, I found myselfconstantly trying to check out
(26:40):
Peter Buck's shoes.
He's got good shoes.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Lenny also wears good shoes.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
I'm styling some blue suede boots.
There you go.
Those are nice.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
I still have the same podcast shoes that we talked
about last time on.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
I still have my plantar fasciitis shoes on.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
That's exactly what you said last time.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
But it's funny.
But I will be wearing regularshoes tonight because I saw Cat
Power about eight months ago andshe wears some Jimmy Choo shoes
or whatever.
I said wow, I don't know howyou wear these.
She goes 80 minutes.
I got 80 minutes, and that'show I am.
I'll wear my nice shoes tonight.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
Yeah, I think it's really cool to have people of
different types of musicbackgrounds and driving and
crying.
At one point it was thissouthern rock band, not southern
as what you think of southernrock, but a rock band from the
south, the Kudzu we're the Kudzucircuit, yeah, and Patty Smith
group.
We talk about REM.
(27:40):
But to eventually have three ofyou from those bands morph to
play in a couple of nights, Ijust think that's cool.
I like stuff like that.
I really enjoy it and I thinkthe fans do from the shows that
I've been to.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
If you're open-minded and you don't want to just hear
straight to hell or something,if you're open-minded, that's
you know you will be very Ithink you'll enjoy yourself.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Now, you've always said you have to play Straight
to Hell at every Driving andCrying show.
Do you have to play it at thisshow?
Speaker 2 (28:11):
I mean Peter likes it , and you know.
I mean I don't have to doanything.
And I'm a Satanist so, yes, so,natchez, that's you know, but
yeah, yeah, so, but yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
So, lenny, 50 years ago you had Patti Smith Group
television, ramones, talkingHeads, blondie, all at CBGB.
What was that like?
And again, at the time, noone's big, no one's famous.
What is it like for all of youkind of making it at the same
time?
Speaker 4 (28:49):
Well, I wrote this book.
It's called Lightning Striking10 Transformative Moments in
Rock and Roll, and what Ibelieve is that sometimes the
locus of energy happens in alocality, a geographic time and
space.
It's something that Brian Enocalls scenius.
(29:11):
It's not really genius.
All about the people on thestage, it's the environment,
it's the audience, it's whatthey're wearing, it's what
they're rebelling against, whatthey're hoping to achieve.
Usually it's someplace off thepoint, someplace underground, if
(29:32):
you might, or one of them, andit's so out of the way.
It's on, you know, a derelictrow.
It's nobody there, and all thebands there are kind of mongrels
(29:53):
.
They don't know what they'redoing, so they all gather in
this place.
That gives them a place to play, and then they play for each
other in a weird way.
You know, in the first yearthere was never more than 20, 25
people watching television,make mistakes, ramones, get on
that stage and have a fight andstorm off and come back.
(30:15):
It's a place to hang out.
I mean, I get asked thisquestion what was it like?
You know, because it's allhindsight Then.
Then it was just I'm going togo down to my local, have a
drink.
Try to pick up the girl at theend of the bar, stand outside
yak with my friends, not evengoing in to see from Sire
(30:38):
Records singing doo-wop records,when all of a sudden he hears
the opening notes of the TalkingHeads', love Goes to a Building
on Fire and he says, oh, excuseme.
And he rushes in and signs them.
You know, it was just a barthat you happen to be in, which
is kind of great because it'syou know, you have time to
(31:02):
develop.
I worry these days because assoon as anybody does anything,
they put it on the Internet,they get it out there and you
don't have that time wherenobody's figured out.
One thing about CBGB was thatall the bands were completely
different.
Tom Verlaine once said thateach band was like a separate
(31:22):
idea.
And what was the United thingabout it?
Well, we were all kind ofmisfits and everyone took a long
time.
Patti Smith group we wereplaying once a month in some
folk club, to GeneralBewilderment.
But when we got to CBGB's andplayed there for seven straight
(31:43):
weeks in the spring of 75, threenights a week, with television
four nights a week we reallystarted understanding what it
was we were doing, getting agrasp on it.
And it's just an importantplace thing to have a place to
play.
You know what can I say inretrospect?
(32:05):
It was a hot, hotbed of energyand all of these kind of scenes,
as I call it, have a lifelineof about five years.
You know where?
You know you get this amorphousuh, solar energy coming
together, dust particles thatform a planet for a year or two,
and then it kind of startsfiltering out and it gets a name
(32:30):
like, well, say, punk or theBritish invasion, or rockabilly
or whatever, grunge.
And then it becomes defined and, as we just talked about,
that's kind of where it starts.
You know, by the time it getsout there and is known as grunge
(32:51):
or punk, or, you know, new waveor whatever the heck it would
be, it's over and then it's timeto start again.
And if you look at the placesthat I chose for my book,
they're all kind of off thepoint.
I mean, seattle didn't havemuch of anything.
I mean Jimi Hendrix did comefrom there, but all these bands,
they had time to get away andkind of understand what they
(33:16):
wanted to be, and that's animportant thing.
So yeah, I mean yeah, it was agolden age.
I look back on it and think,man, I was really glad to be
there, in the same way that Iwish I could have been there on
45th Street Excuse me, 52ndStreet in New York when Bebop
was being born.
You know that must have beengreat to walk along that little
(33:38):
strip.
The Three Deuces in the OnyxClub, and you know, I think I'll
see Charlie Parker tonight.
Or Dizzy Gillespie is over here.
Or you know, the folk revivalera in New York and Greenwich
Village.
It's just great when you getthese conglomerations of energy
(33:59):
and they turn into something,and sooner or later they need to
turn into something else.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
One of the amazing things you just mentioned the
folk revival and punk.
They were separatedgeographically by a few blocks,
right From CBGB's down BleekerStreet.
Speaker 4 (34:16):
I mean CBGB's.
Now, of course you go to theEast Village and it's like, you
know, really pretty nice, butyou got to remember what CBGBs.
Now, of course you go to theEast Village and it's like
really pretty nice, but you gotto remember what CBGBs was.
It was on the Bowery, which wasSkid Row.
After 5 or 6 o'clock, all therestaurant equipment stores
which was what was lining itclosed and it was desolate and
(34:38):
you think, oh yeah, 40 blocksuptown is the heartbeat of New
York City.
But you're there, there's aBum's Hotel above CBGB.
So you're standing on thestreet talking to your people
and a bottle comes soaring outthe bathroom.
It was just a dump thatactually allowed anything to
(35:02):
happen.
And that's what I'm.
That was Hilly's great thing.
He didn't try to likemanipulate it or he just said
the only thing you have to do isplay original music.
He didn't want cover bands and,you know, created a legend.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
It sure did I mean.
Again, if you go to the top 50albums of all time, three bands
from that time are in the top 50.
And you got the Ramones atnumber 47 with their debut album
, talking Heads at number 39with Remain in Light from 1980,
(35:38):
and we mentioned the Patti Smithgroup.
I just find that absolutelyfascinating, that three bands
from CBGB, this dump.
As you said, I didn't say ityou know, it's just a dump.
But the fact that there are somany people still, because this
(35:59):
was recently redone, I think in2023.
So this isn't an old list.
This is still what people think.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
Well, it's really nice that that music lives on,
but my inspiration for that wasthe San Francisco scene.
I'm living in New Jersey, I'mfinishing up college, I'm really
intrigued by the hippie worldand I have a Fillmore poster on
my wall.
This is beginning of 67.
(36:26):
It's got Grateful Dead,jefferson Airplane and
Quicksilver Messenger Service,three bands who were just, and
you have all the other ones, bigBrother and the Holding Company
that was a locus of energy.
There too, it's great to see.
Look at Seattle again Nirvana,soundgarden, pearl Jam, just to
(36:49):
take my three favorites, alicein Chains.
These are, and they're allcoming out of this little heated
core of creativity.
I like to see that happen.
Liverpool, okay, let's like tosee that happen.
You know Liverpool, okay, let'sgo to another obvious one.
You know the Beatles, jerry andthe Pacemakers, and you know.
(37:10):
Then they go to London and meetthe Rolling Stones.
It's like a crucible of energythat all of a sudden breaks free
from its geography and becomesworldwide, changes the face of
music in a very quick way.
I mean Memphis, sam Phillips,sun Records, elvis and Carl
(37:34):
Perkins, and you know, I meanit's great.
Detroit.
Here's another one Detroit, mc5, stooges.
Great detroit here's anotherone detroit, mc5, stooges and,
uh well, you know for me savagegrace or src.
But I just love when you know Ihate to use my own title but
lightning strikes you can'tpredict it it's usually not
(37:57):
where you're gonna.
When they try to do like a kindof scene, like they tried in
the 60s with boston, the Bostownsound, you know it's artificial
.
You can't predict where it'sgoing to happen.
And I look around now.
I mean there's a ton of greatmusic.
I like modern music.
I'm not one who says, oh, it'sbetter, then you know it's not.
(38:20):
You know music lives in thepresent and when I put on TikTok
radio, as I often do, I'm verymuch bemused by the songs and
the attitudes and the sounds.
You know sounds of the music.
But I look around for wherethat locus of geographic energy
(38:41):
is and I believe that theinternet has kind of diffused it
, so it's all over the place.
Maybe you know, and maybesomewhere on the internet
there's a little cluster oflike-minded musicians who are
formulating the future.
I look for it.
But I'm much more interested inlistening to Jamaican gospel.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
There you go.
So, kevin, driving and Crying.
You had mentioned recording anew album.
Have you started that?
Where are you in that process?
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Well, we played the Earl the other night.
That's part of our process.
I wish we could do it more.
My only regret to sometimes, inhaving a band that's kind of
has popped in Atlanta, we havecontracts for shows that are
coming up and I try to do theEarl.
I had to do it in a differentname Cesar Romero's, camaro,
(39:34):
things like that because we gotthings coming up.
I wish I could do more of thoseshows, because all these bands
that we're talking about Pattyand the Ramones and all these
bands, the RCBs that had records, those first records are always
really great because you get topractice them, you get to do
whole shows and you're doingthem over and over again.
The Cars first record theyplayed those songs for years and
(39:57):
years and sing, and then you doyour second record and you're
like you can't do.
I wish I could play everyMonday.
I got to do my solo thing, butI wish I could play every Monday
with Driving and Crying to workout the new record and just do
the same 10 songs over and overand over again.
We don't really have a practiceroom so we don't really do that
(40:17):
.
So we're in the process ofdoing it.
I might you know we have to dosome.
You know I wish we could do.
I mean I'm a little bitfrustrated in that I can't do
more, just do whatever I want todo anymore as far as, like you
know.
But you know we're going tostart March 8th in Nashville and
(40:41):
go and do that.
But I think it's going to begreat.
I'm going to keep it short,short and sweet.
It's hard to.
What I wanted to call it was.
My working title right now isAvoiding the Obvious for Dummies
.
My working title right now isAvoiding the Obvious for Dummies
.
But going back to what Lenny wassaying about the punk rock,
(41:04):
everyone talks about CBGBsbecause that was where the
record companies were and a lotof those bands got signed.
But at the same time inMilwaukee we also had a very
vibrant scene of 20 bands thatwere all different.
We had a bar called Zach's andthe Starship and Chicago had one
and Kansas City had one,nashville had one, and it was
(41:26):
just a really great thing.
And then the flashpoint waswhen we were like, oh, there's
something happening, thesepeople are getting signed or
whatever.
It was inspiring Because Iremember when Radio Ethiopia
came to Milwaukee and Sparksopened up, I mean that audience.
(41:49):
It was pretty sold out.
It was a great thing.
None of those people were fromNew York, they were all from
Milwaukee and they were veryexcited about this because they
also had similar.
We all had similar practicerooms and we all had similar
experiences growing up inAmerica and breaking through,
wanting to be heard and beingfrustrated and trying to find
(42:13):
art when you can find it andread.
And so we're like there's PattiSmith, she's doing, she's doing
poetry and there's like musicand it's really beautiful and
they're not.
I watched the Grammys the othernight and people were like oh,
how disappointing is it?
So the Grammys have always beencrap, exactly, you know.
They've always been crap.
(42:34):
Why are you surprised thoseGrammys really sucked?
They've always sucked.
Why are you pretending theydidn't?
Why are you surprised thatthose grammys really sucked?
They're like they've alwayssucked.
Why are you pretending they didthey?
When are you?
What are you expecting?
Speaker 4 (42:43):
you know so, uh, I'm so happy that the rolling stones
got best rock album finally.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Oh, it took him 50 years and just to be kind of
like the the rolling stone listthing, it's like I just I mean
I'm glad that they'reacknowledging certain things,
but just it's really just whitebusinessmen's list.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
I don't find it.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
I don't find it's endearing at all.
You know it's like I don't knowwhat lists are, but it is to me
.
You know, of course, all of ushorses would be top two, top
four, reckoning top ten.
Speaker 4 (43:23):
I mean, it's like I don't know.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Who cares about Rolling Stone?
I don't really.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
I hate Rolling Stone magazine, but for me I think
it's that I think a lot of timeswe forget history and I think
that as newer people come up,all of a sudden everything
becomes.
You know, taylor Swift orwhoever.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
Always been there, though Always been there.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
I like to me.
Pat Boone's always been there,yes, but I like the fact that
all these years later, thingsthat I can relate to, they still
are acknowledged and whetheryou agree with it or where it
should be or it shouldn't be,for me the fan, because I'm not
a singer If you heard me, youwouldn't want to hear me again.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
I don't know about that.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
That's what they said about Bob Dylan.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
That's good that people get acknowledged.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
I think that's where I'm coming from as a fan.
For me, it's still good to seethat they are giving good music.
That, I think, is good music isstill getting its credit all
these years later.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
It's like when somebody gets an award for Hall
of Fame, like the Rock and RollHall of Fame, that's really a
validation for fans, Becausefans, when Cheap Trick got in I
mean I know Cheap Trick as theband was finally relieved they
were in.
But it was more of a relief forCheap Trick fans.
They're like, ah, and everytime they have a new list of
(44:49):
people who are going to be inthe Rock and Roll Hall of Fame,
they always list the 60 peoplewho aren't in it, like
Brownsville Station, and I waslike what, why is that not in
the Hall of Fame?
I think the Hall of Fame shouldonly have people who you are
never going to hear of.
Speaker 4 (45:05):
That's my whole when I was on the nominating
committee, even though I've beenremoved.
I tried to get Johnny Holidayin there, because he's the only.
I mean he was gigantic inEurope and had more to do with
spreading the gospel of rock androll to people who don't speak
English, but I never got anytraction for that.
(45:26):
And now I'm, you know, now I'mI mean I wish it was the Rock
and Roll Museum and in a certainway I wish it was more about
rock and roll than trying to beevery pop music.
Now I feel like the Hall ofFame is more like the Chinese
menu one from column A, one fromcolumn B.
Speaker 3 (45:45):
You have to have this genre.
Speaker 4 (45:46):
Here's the metal entrant and here's this, and
sometimes it's divided by howmany records you sell, which is
like most of my, you know.
I mean I'm amazed that theRamones are in there, but why
aren't the Seeds?
But you know, I mean we're allone and I really sometimes I
(46:09):
think it's more of a badge ofhonor not to be in there because
, kevin, actually you said thatlast time you were on the show,
did I?
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (46:19):
You actually did say that.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
I was disgruntled.
Yeah, I mean yeah.
Speaker 4 (46:25):
I don't know.
I mean, they're all bowlingtrophies.
I got a couple of gold metallicrecords from Europe.
Horses never went gold.
As far as I at least, I don'thave the bowling trophy, but to
me I used to have a coupletrophy.
But you know, to me I used tohave a couple of them up on my
wall and then one day I lookedat them I said, you know, I'm
taking them down because I'm notone for what I did in the past.
(46:48):
I mean, nuggets has bought memore beers around the world than
anything and I don't have apiece of metal to hang on the
wall but it still lives on andthat, to me, is the greatest
compliment.
You can have A rogue record thatI put together with no sense.
It was A ever going to come out.
Tried not to make itcomprehensive, I just put my
(47:11):
favorite records there and itseems to have survived the
decades.
So what do you know?
Survive the decades, you know.
So you know.
What do you know?
It's all out there.
You know many of the recordsI've made over the years which I
thought were great when I was aworking record producer.
(47:33):
You know, nobody's ever heard.
You know I do a song when Iplay solo called Naked is the
Day by the Weather Prophets.
Nobody has ever heard thatrecord but to me it's one of the
greatest songs ever and perhapsyou can convince me to play it
tonight.
Speaker 3 (47:49):
There you go.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
You heard it here first.
Well, that's what's great aboutlistening to Lenny talk Right
now.
It's like I want to go findsome reggae gospel.
I mean, he's so inspiring to somany of us people because he's
still doing it and he's not henever.
I wrote a song called IanMcClaglin about.
You know some people they doone thing and talk about it
(48:11):
their whole life and some peoplejust keep on doing it.
That's what keeps us alive, andat the end of the show I go
Lenny K.
I know, end of the show, I goLenny K.
I now have some of the peoplethat are friends of mine keep
going Steve Wynn, lenny K,alejandro Escovido, all these
people who, just they havehistory, of course, but they're
constantly moving forward andturning me like.
Lenny has wrote a chapter in hisnew book about death metal,
(48:33):
about and it was like you know Iwas like I was like like I
remember we were doing somethingin New York and you're like oh,
I'm going uptown to see someSwedish death metal band and I'm
like Lenny Case.
I said what are you?
What you know, opeth?
That is so inspiring to me tojust keep on learning and being
open minded.
Speaker 4 (48:52):
You gotta you know yeah, you gotta keep your
neurons flashing, I mean, that'swhy I never think that it's
over for music.
I don't want to be like one ofthose people who says, oh, bebop
, why, jazz was really jazz whenit came out of New Orleans, or
(49:15):
whatever.
If you can find the key, that'sthe thing.
Music's I've never been able toslot.
I can appreciate them from afar, but I remember the moment I
understood bebop.
I was always like, oh yeah,charlie Parker's a genius Great,
so you acknowledge that.
But do you hear his genius?
And then one day I'm listeningto the Columbia Station, his
(49:39):
genius.
And then one day I'm listeningto the Columbia station and
they're playing records by thispianist named Dodo Marmarosa,
and Dodo was in Californiaduring the mid 40s and played
with Charlie Parker.
He later went a little insaneand pushed a piano out a third
story window to see what itsounded like when it hit the
(50:00):
ground did he record it?
Speaker 1 (50:01):
I hope I don't think so.
Speaker 4 (50:05):
But he had a song called bopmatism.
And I'm listening to the radioand all of a sudden I said, wow,
this is really catchy.
And then, all of a sudden, Igot an insight into what the
sound of bebop must have been on52nd Street, the punk rock of
its day, you know, except theyused flatted fifths or whatever
the heck they are.
(50:25):
But you know, all of a sudden Igot it.
And then you know, there's therabbit hole yawning to
understand.
You know Charlie Parker's workand you know all these great,
incredible players and the onesthat are not legends.
You know Red Mitchell and youknow, just to see what it was
like in that moment in time tothe excitement of musical
(50:47):
discovery and I think that'swhat you're talking about, kevin
it's like, yeah, I'm in somestrange rabbit hole where, you
know, lucy Myers is my heroine.
But I got to say, you know,it's like when you find
something that turns you on,like Donny Hathaway turned me on
yesterday.
I was like whoa, I have tolisten to more of him.
Speaker 3 (51:08):
Doesn't he have a Christmas song?
Speaker 4 (51:10):
Yes, he does.
I've never heard it.
I'm just starting to dig thatexcavation.
Speaker 3 (51:15):
Because I'm like, wait a minute.
I know that name and I've beenthinking this Christmas, yes.
Speaker 4 (51:22):
I mean, it's all out there.
I mean, that's one of the greatthings about the internet is
that, if I happen to be on abyway of Algerian music, a
couple of years ago this greatRai, master of Algerian music,
passed away.
I couldn't tell you his name,but you know, instead of going
(51:44):
out to Brooklyn to go to theArab record shops or, you know,
trying to find it at yourfriend's record shop in Athens.
Speaker 2 (51:52):
Right, yo-yo, lo-yo-lo, yo-yo, yeah, todd's,
todd's.
Speaker 4 (51:57):
Todd's Todd's store.
You know I said, okay, whatdoes this guy sound like?
I mean, when I did my croonerbook you Call it Madness about
the crooners of the late 1920sand early 30s, bing Crosby and
Rudy Valli and Russ Colombo abook, I have to say that nobody
(52:18):
who knew me understood why I didit and nobody who knew Bing
Crosby or those guys wereoff-put by the wacky writing
style.
But I heard this scratchy 78 onone of those FM stations all
the way to the left of the dialdriving home one night.
(52:38):
You know, potted out and theannouncer started talking about
Russ Colombo.
That he, you know, was theBattle of the Baritones with
Bing Crosby.
He died in a dueling pistolaccident with his best friend.
He was supposed to be marriedto Kara Lombard and when he died
his mother was ill with a heartattack and was blind.
(53:02):
So they didn't tell her and for10 years they wrote letters to
her Hi, mom, I'm in Italy, oh myLord.
And I thought, wow, that's sogreat.
And if the internet was there Iwould have woken up the next
morning, gone on oh, that's RussColombo, interesting.
And gone on to something else.
But I had to go to the libraryget the newspaper on microfilm
(53:29):
from September of 1934, read hisstory and look at all the
surrounding advertisements, andsuddenly I'm in this world where
I spent eight years plowingaround his story and look at all
the surrounding advertisements,and you know, and suddenly I'm
in this world where I spenteight years plowing around and
it was a great.
You know, I mean, but you knowso sometimes it's too easy to
(53:51):
get this stuff.
It's really fun when you, Imean the Jay Bacon gospel, I
there's one guy who I know hasit, and my friend who owns the
record store in the town that Imean the J Bacon Gospel.
There's one guy who I know hasit and my friend who owns the
record store in the town that Ilive.
He bought a big collection andthere's a couple on tabernacle
records.
There you go.
I mean, anyway, I love the huntand I love the research and I
(54:12):
love music.
I mean my astrology— itdefinitely comes across love
music it definitely comes across.
I wake up, I get to play music,I get to hang out with my
musical pals, I get to listen tomusic, I get to write about it
and I'm a fan of it.
Speaker 2 (54:31):
Some people have podcasts dedicated to it To help
educate other people to turnthese things on.
So thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (54:37):
You're welcome and I know we could sit here all day
and we could tell stories allday long.
Speaker 4 (54:43):
Kevin and I have to practice for our very
well-choreographed show.
Speaker 3 (54:47):
I'm looking forward because I'll be at the second
show.
I'm looking forward to thedancing, and I do have to do a
shout-out because my boss let mecome take an extended lunch so
that I could actually come outand sit with all of you.
So, eric, thank you very much.
Speaker 4 (55:01):
Thank you, Eric.
I do appreciate that, Eric.
Speaker 3 (55:02):
Well done you the man , you the man.
That is a shout out.
I really appreciate both of youcoming by.
I mean this has been fantastic,you know, hearing about things
from the past and the presentand talking a little bit about
the future, and thank you both.
Speaker 4 (55:19):
Thanks for having us.
Thanks for having us.
Speaker 3 (55:21):
Yes, it's been wonderful having you here on
Music In my Shoes.
That's it for episode 68 ofMusic In my Shoes.
I'd like to thank Kevin Kinneyand Lenny Kay for joining us
today.
That was pretty awesome.
I'd like to thank Jimmy Guthrie, show producer and owner of
Arcade 160 Studios located righthere in Atlanta, georgia, and
(55:44):
Vic Thrill for our podcast music.
This is Jim Boge, and I hopeyou learned something new or
remembered something old.
We'll meet again on our nextepisode.
Until then, live life and keepthe music playing.
He's got the feeling in his toe-toe.
He's got the feeling and it'sout there growing.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Hey everybody, this is Jim Boge and you're listening
to Music In my Shoes.
That was Vic Thrill kicking offepisode 68.
As always, I'm thrilled to behere with you.
Let's learn something new, newor remember something old.
I'm really excited about thisepisode Joining us in studio.
Okay, in the studio with ustoday.
(00:54):
Friend of the show, kevinKinney yes, and Lenny K, music
journalist, underground garageman and happens to be the
guitarist for the Patti SmithGroup.
Welcome, gentlemen, welcome.
We appreciate you being here sothe first thing I have to ask is
(01:16):
how did you two become friends?
You know, kenny, kenny, I'mcalling him Kenny.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
I took Kevin and Lenny and mixed it into Kenny.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Oh, I like that.
All right, that's our new group.
That's our new group.
Him, kenny.
I took Kevin and Lenny andmixed it into Kenny.
Oh, I like that.
I like that, that's our newgroup.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
That's our new group, Kenny.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
So how did you two become?
Speaker 4 (01:31):
friends, I believe that you came to visit me once
when I lived on the Bowery, whenyou were looking for record
producers for Driving and Crying.
I think so, yeah, and you kindof visited me, but I believe the
first time we really had a hangwas when Patty and the band
played in Atlanta at that wackyfestival in the middle of
(01:53):
somewhere.
Oh right yeah, and Bob Dylanwas also on the bill.
That's right, and we stood bythis side of the stage and we
were bonded forever.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
That's right, it's kind of.
We're kind of I really don'tremember, but we have a mutual
friend called Tom Clark.
I think I've talked about Tombefore.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
I've actually seen you and Tom Clark play.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah, at Eddie's.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
At.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Eddie's yes, yes, jimmy, you were there too, I was
there, yeah.
So me and Tom, we had a pissingmatch one day when I was playing
at the Mercury Lounge and Iwent over to Tom's bar and I
said yeah, you know, I got LennyCase sitting there and he goes
oh yeah, yeah, he's just my bestman.
Yeah, well, that's pretty cool.
(02:34):
But I've been a huge fan of thePatti Smith group, of course,
and of Lenny's writings, andhe's a fantastic writer.
He's written some greatarticles and books and that was
all before really you got intoscience fiction.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Patty Smith, you did a lot of journalism.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
Yeah, but I still do.
I mean, I've always written andI've always played music
because I feel like there's alot of combination between the
two.
A great sentence has rhythm andmelody, a great guitar solo has
a narrative arc and I'm reallyhappy to kind of move back and
forth between the things.
But it was writing that broughtPatty and me together, because
(03:13):
she called me up one day aftershe read an article I wrote for
Jazz and Pop magazine in 1970called the Best of Acapella,
which was kind of like thetwilight of doo-wop, and it
spoke to her from the music shelistened to when she grew up in
South Jersey.
And so she started visiting mein the record store where I
(03:36):
worked and asked me to be a partof her first poetry reading at
St Mark's.
And out of that little acorn agreat oak grew.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
You're not kidding, You're not kidding at all.
I mean, that's a pretty coolaccomplishment to start off that
way and then to have Horses,which is celebrating its 50th
anniversary.
I know crazy.
It makes it to number 26 onRolling Stone's top 500 albums
of all time, and I just findthat just amazing.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
You find it amazing, I find it astonishing.
I mean, you know, a rogue pieceof work like that still sounds
completely like nothing else.
Before or since that weactually had a rock band Because
we didn't set out oh yeah,let's have a rock band and do
this.
We had some weird cabaret triowith Richard Soul and we had a
(04:34):
lot of weird improvisation, kindof following Patty's stream of
consciousness, and it was justkind of remarkable that by the
time we had a rock and roll band, when we added our drummer, jd
Darity, we sounded likeourselves instead of some other
random generic rock band.
But who knew?
(04:55):
I mean, really the best thingyou can do in this life is just
follow your instincts and try tomake sure that what you do is
pure.
Just follow your instincts andtry to make sure that what you
do is pure, and I've been prettyfortunate to be able to do that
my creative life, no matterwhat I do One question I have
being part of her first poetryreading you did at St Mark's.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Was that rehearsed?
Was that just you improvisingwith her poetry?
What was that like?
Speaker 4 (05:22):
We had about two rehearsals.
She was living in a loft on23rd Street with Robert
Mapplethorpe and she was kind ofinvolved with Sam Shepard, the
playwright, who suggested shewanted to shake up her first
poetry reading, you know,because she knew that Gregory
Corso would be in the audienceand if it was boring he'd be
(05:45):
hooting and hollering thingsfrom the balcony.
So we were friendly.
She would come over and I'd puton our favorite records Bristol
Stomp by the Dovelles or myHero by the Blue Notes, and we'd
dance around and Sam suggestedthat maybe she could recruit the
guy from the record storebecause he knew I played a
little guitar.
(06:05):
So I went over to her loft andshe would recite her poems and I
just played totally simplechords, kind of rhythmic.
I wasn't a virtuoso.
Let's try this minor seventhdiminished twelfth.
I just kind of chugged alongbehind her and followed how she
breathed, which I think I stilldo.
(06:27):
That's kind of what we do.
And we did this poetry reading.
It was pretty well received bythe hundred people that were in
St Mark's Church, some Warholpeople, some from the rock
writing world, some of Robert'sfriends.
But it wasn't meant to be athing.
(06:48):
We did it once in February of1971, and we didn't perform
again together until 1973 inNovember Wow, when she did
another poetry reading and shecalled me up and said instead of
doing Mac the Knife, let's doHank Ballard's Thrill Upon the
(07:10):
Hill.
Then we started getting gigs atopening up in folk clubs and
just doing whatever it is we did.
We never really tried to makeit anything more than what it
was.
We knew that people werefascinated, especially when
Patty would go off on theseflights of fancy and me and
Richard Soule would be runningthe chords of three chords
(07:34):
behind her and dark and light.
Without a drummer you couldslow things down and then speed
them up and we had an effect,but we really didn't know how to
even deal with it.
So, you know, it was just liketrial and experimentation and
not trying to force it intobeing anything.
(07:56):
That to me is really key.
You know, we just let itorganically happen.
A lot of our early songs, likeFree Money or something, they
were just like cycles of chordsthat as we played them live, the
arrangements would kind of, youknow, emerge, gloria, you know
we didn't sit in the practiceroom and say we're going to go.
You know, and everybody hitthat it just started and then we
(08:18):
all kept remembering it.
It was a beautiful process andhopefully you know, it's a way
that we've continued having theband for all these years,
because we try not to be toosmart for ourselves, we just try
to do what seems natural andforward motion.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
So let me ask you this Do you know how good horses
is?
Do you know how good Horses is?
Do you know Like and I knowthat sounds kind of funny, but
the connection that people havehad, because it's connected with
both critics as well as theregular, you know, just fan base
and to people like myself notthat I listened to it in 75, but
(09:02):
I started to hear it in thelater 70s and the connection
that it made to all thesedifferent people, do you ever
say like, wow, I say wow.
Do you come across?
Speaker 4 (09:17):
as really humble with everything.
I say wow all the time becauseto me when I listen to Horses I
hear a very young band strainingat the bit, not really sure
what we're doing.
A lot of the songs grew.
I mean, birdland started out asa three-minute poem with a
musical accompaniment and wewanted to record it live and
John Kell kept saying, if youwant to do it live, you really
(09:40):
got to do it.
And he just kept pushing us andthe song got longer and longer
and really happened in thestudio.
I feel I hear our innocence, oursense of possibility.
But I think and I hear a reallyweird record.
I mean I listen to Horses, Ithink what the hell?
But I think what it representedto people say, like Kevin or
(10:03):
Michael Stipe or any of the manypeople who have come up to me
over the years and bought me abeer, thank you.
Is that sense of you can dosomething your own way, that
thing that Patty says about thesea of possibilities.
All you got to do is dive inand swim around and find out who
(10:25):
you are.
And I think that empowers a lotof people.
I mean I love all our recordsthe Black Sheep of Radio
Ethiopia and our hit recordEaster.
And this is the 70s stuff,because I also think that the
music that we've made in the now30 years since Patty's returned
(10:49):
from Detroit and, of course,her record with Fred Sonic Smith
, is also beautiful.
People have the Power has beensung all over the world as an
empowering anthem.
You know, it's all exploration,but what I like most is the
people who've been touched byhorses and influenced by it.
Don't sound at all like horsesand that's what I like.
(11:10):
You know it's like.
You know Bono comes up to meand oh yeah, you know you too
doesn't sound anything like us,but they took that spirit of
illumination and applied it tothemselves and it made them
become.
I mean, michael Stipe is oftentalked about when he heard, or
(11:32):
Peter Buck when they heardhorses.
It allowed them to bethemselves and that's a great
honor.
I wouldn't want people to doany of the songs on horses
sideways.
It's a pretty bizarre record,but in the end Patti is a
magical person.
(11:53):
I've been privileged to stand tothe left of her for more than
half a century now.
I've never, ever seen her singa false note.
I've never seen her just gointo show.
I mean she likes to put on ashow, but it's never like
divorced from the emotion behindit and she always tries to get
(12:14):
a moment during the show that'sunique to that particular show
that the people can take out ofthere and take to heart.
And really all I have to do istry to get that door open before
she rushes through it.
With whatever she's doing, it'sa great privilege to watch her,
I mean in anything.
(12:35):
I mean two nights ago she did apoetry reading at U of Penn.
She asked me to come downbecause she thought she could
use a little companionship.
And you know she's reading fromher beautiful books I mean an
incredible, incredible writer,and you know.
And then we illustrate it witha couple songs, kind of the same
thing we did back in 1974.
(12:55):
And you know she's present, sheis really present and you know,
as we know, the present is agift.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
That it is.
So you mentioned Bono.
I have to be honest, the songDancing Barefoot Right.
I forgot about the song untilU2 released it.
It was like a B-side of asingle and all of a sudden I
remembered how much I liked thatsong.
I guess I just hadn't heard itor whatever, and that is just.
I could listen to that song allthe time I love it.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
It's a beautiful song .
I mean, I'm very proud.
You know, we don't have a lotof hits.
Really, the only real hit wehad was Because of the Night,
which is, you know, you can'tbeat that chorus.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
I'm sorry.
So what's the story with thesong?
So Bruce Springsteen wrote someof it, didn't have all of it,
couldn't finish it.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
He was piling up the songs for what would become
Darkness at the Edge of Town andJimmy Iovine, our producer.
This was his first productionbefore he became Mega.
Jimmy had worked with Bruce onBorn to Run and so they were
friendly and I kind of knewBruce.
I saw him play in 1969 inAsbury Park in a group called
(14:12):
Child.
He did a 10-minute version ofSeason of the Witch on a black
Les Paul.
That blew me away.
So I was in his fan club, eventhough he didn't even put out a
record for another three years.
My friend and I once went to thesurfboard factory where he was
living.
My friend was a guitar playerfrom Newark hey, where can we go
(14:36):
, jam?
And he told us someplace.
He was living in a room threeby five.
But we're friendly and he's inone studio working on Darkness
and we're in another studio atthe record plant and Jimmy
always wanted us to do a hit.
You know, but you know I'm outin the studio playing some
(14:56):
chords and he rushed those aregreat, keep it going.
And it turns out to be GhostDance, which is not a hit by any
means, except for the people.
But he knew that there was thissong that Bruce had a great
chorus on and some mumbledlyrics about you know, I work
all day in the hot sun, you knowBruce lyrics and he finally
(15:18):
talked Bruce into letting Pattyhave the song and you know,
write the lyrics and write thelyrics in her voice.
And she resisted it because shewanted us to write our own
songs.
But one day, as she likes totell it, when she was waiting
for a phone call from Fredbecause we didn't have cell
(15:40):
phones in those days, it wasexpensive, so they had a once a
week.
He was in Detroit, she's in NewYork and he didn't call for
phones in those days.
So you know it was expensive.
So they had a once a week.
He was in Detroit, she's in NewYork, and he didn't call for
like a few hours.
And so she put on the cassetteand oh, she says it's a darn hit
song.
And so she wrote the lyrics andby the time she finished them,
freddie called and the rest ishistory.
(16:02):
Or as I like to say, herstory.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
There you go, you know.
The song is number 358 onRolling Stone's top 500 songs of
all time.
I mean again for people thatweren't looking to do you know
any great things.
There's a lot of great thingsthat happen.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
Well, it's a real honor and it's a privilege.
Both Patty and I try not tolook at the scorecards of where
our song falls in something orother, because personally I like
all our songs and those are themost obvious.
I mean to me, when I listen toRadio Ethiopia, I think, man,
(16:45):
that is more akin to certain ofour aesthetic sensibilities than
having a, you know, top 40anthem, but it's great to play
it.
One of the things about Pattyand us is that we refuse to be
defined.
You know, I mean we have alittle bit of everything.
You know, punk rock, well, youknow, that's kind of one of the
(17:05):
places we came from.
You know, we also came fromfree jazz.
We also came from great dancemusic Motown and the Rolling
Stones and Pink Floyd and thoughnot really, you know, noticed
Grateful Dead, really noticedGrateful Dead.
(17:32):
I mean to see the Grateful Deadkind of morph these songs and
get them to the place we alwayscalled it out there like Sun Ra,
where you kind of releaseyourself from melody and then
you release yourself from rhythmand you're just playing sound
against sound.
If you listen to the tale ofRadio Ethiopia, you know the
Abyssinia part.
You know we didn't have thatscript, we just came upon it and
kind of wrote it wherever itwould go, and that, to me, is
(17:56):
the magic of music.
And you know we don't want tobe defined, as Patty said in the
liner notes to horses.
You know, beyond gender, beyondpolitics, beyond definition,
because I remember when I was akid listening to Mayo and the
Red Crayolas album on theInternational Artists, and they
(18:16):
had a quote on the back and itsays definitions define limit.
And yeah, so I'm known for know,nobody could tell I'm known for
garage rock.
Okay, I understand that.
But I love all kinds of musicand I access all that kind of
music when I play the guitar orsing a song or whatever, because
(18:40):
as soon as you define yourself,it's over.
You've figured it out.
I never want to be figured out.
I want to keep surprisingmyself, because that's how you
grow.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Yeah, you know, it's funny.
You say that when I firststarted thinking about doing the
podcast, I was like you knowwhat am I going to talk about?
What's that box that I'm goingto be in?
And a good friend of mine,chris Cassidy, said you don't
need to be in the box becauseyou like so much.
Just talk about the things thatyou want to talk about.
Regardless, if you think that'swhat people want to hear, just
(19:15):
talk about the things, and ifyou're entertaining, they'll
listen.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
And there's so much of it out there.
I mean, Kevin and I are drivinghere.
Were you crying or just driving?
No, we're laughing.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
One of the things, kevin and I do.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
I thought that was a funny joke.
No one thought it was funny.
It was almost funny, Jim.
It was almost funny.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Ha, ha ha.
Thank you, lenny.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
I appreciate that.
Oh you know.
So yesterday I'm driving to theairport to come down here and
I'm listening to WFMU, thegreatest radio station in the
world, and they play this DonnyHathaway song called I Love you
More Than you Ever Know, which Ididn't know.
I never even thought much aboutDonny Hathaway, except as a
(19:53):
duet with Roberta Flack.
So you know, Kevin, and Ilisten to Donny Hathaway and
just like whoa, you know,there's so much out there.
You know, oh, I'm only a rockand roll person or I'm only a
garagic person, when really, youknow, you find something great.
I go down every single rabbithole.
(20:15):
Mostly, I really love Jamaicanmusic.
That's kind of my go-towhenever I'm home.
I'm especially into this newgenre that I've discovered
called Jamaican gospel, which isreally bizarre.
Check out Lucy Myers sometime.
I will.
She will move.
(20:36):
She will make you a Christian.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
You know, I just discovered Jamaican mento music
recently.
Isn't that so cool?
It's like proto-reggae.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
Oh yeah, you know ska blue.
I mean it's just a reallyinteresting.
You know, it's just aninteresting music.
I've never been to Jamaica butI'm hoping to go in December for
the first time.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Oh, that would be good.
Yeah, so, speaking ofinteresting, the two of you are
playing with Peter Buck, which Ifind is interesting.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
Kevin, I've seen you and Peter Buck play.
It's a menage a trois.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
What should we expect ?
What is it that adding Lenny?
What makes it different?
What is that all about?
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Like Lenny was saying , I just like to combine things.
I like organic, we arecertified 100% organic, gmo free
, or whatever.
I like organic, we arecertified 100% organic, gmo-free
, or whatever I like to.
Just I just did a tour with myfriend, bobby Bear Jr, in these
residencies.
I do, it's just about.
(21:36):
I like people who are certifiedorganic and just have good
spirit.
I have no idea what's going tohappen tonight.
I know that the basis for whatI'm going to do every time I
have a guest at Eddie's is tojust listen.
So I'm going to do a song,lenny's going to do a song, I'll
do a song, lenny will do a song, and then I'll feed, he'll do a
(21:57):
song and I'll think ofsomething while he's playing
that might complement it, orsomething like that.
So I have no idea what's goingto happen.
I just love to live in themoment and just let it expand.
Let it go.
Lenny's going to play someguitar.
He has no idea what he's goingto play.
I don't know what I'm going toplay.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
It's just so.
But, kevin, we have the dancers, we have the dancers, we have
dancers, choreograph.
We have the the dancers, wehave the dancers, we have
dancers, choreograph, we havethe special effects.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
We have the dancing waters.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
I don't know if they're canceled or not, but
that's one of the reasons why Igo to the shows, go to your
shows, because I have no ideawhat's going to happen when.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
I go, and neither does the band.
My band has no idea what'sgoing to happen either, whether
it's Driving and Crying, or it'sKevin Kinney.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
I don't know if you're going to be acoustic.
I don't know if you're going tobe with a full band Kevin
Kinney band.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
I think what Lenny said earlier about horses was
spot on.
It was just the essence of whatthe evening is the essence of
the music People who love horses.
You won't hear John Caffrey ofBeaver Brown Band doing
(23:15):
Springsteen.
Remember that.
It was really bad, but youassimilate the essence of the
evening.
Whatever happens between nowand the showtime was going to
affect the show.
So I had an epiphany aboutmusic and local bands coming to
(23:38):
your town when I went to see U2at the Sphere and I love U2.
I think they're one of my.
I went to see U2 at the Sphereand I love U2.
I think they're one of myfavorite bands to see live.
It's a spiritual moment.
But when I saw them I wasdisconnected watching them in
Vegas because he wasn't speakingto my people about what was
happening in that moment and Ifelt weird being in Vegas and
(24:02):
there's people from all over theworld here and I didn't get
that emotional connection that Iget when he comes to Atlanta or
when people come to your townand they're singing to everybody
in Philly and they're singingto everybody in California.
There's a beauty to that.
It's important to come out andsee live music in your towns.
(24:25):
And then we've got Lenny K inAtlanta.
Last time he was here we did afew things at the Fox.
We did a little thing, butLenny's got some great songs.
He's constantly writing andrecording too.
Keep moving the ball forward,keep looking to the future,
(24:45):
writing songs from his heart andsharing his story.
We'll be sharing our story onstage.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
And I know it will be good, because it always is good
.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Well, you know, I always remind my fans.
The only guarantee that I giveat every show is that at some
moment you will be disappointed.
There will be a brief momentwhere you'll be like, oh,
tonight will be different.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
Tonight will be different tonight will be
different will be fantastic, ifonly those flash pots go off at
the right time.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
If it doesn't, it's over.
And then you add Peter Buck tothe mix, who is just Peter Buck.
He's not going to do anyblistering guitars, but just
having his essence in the roomand strumming.
Like I've said a million timesbefore, there's G.
All of us could strum a G chordand it would all sound
(25:42):
different.
It's just the essence of yoursoul coming through your fingers
.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
And talk about somebody that didn't set out to
start a traditional rock band.
The beginning of REM it waslike they were all just going in
new directions and it came outsounding like a new kind of rock
band, but that's not reallywhat they were trying to do.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
I don't think any of us knew what we're doing.
Speaker 4 (26:04):
That's just the beauty of it is.
Every time I think I know whatI'm doing, it doesn't end well
Right.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
Well, speaking of Peter Buck, last time you were
on the show you started to talkabout how a lot of your rock
star friends have great shoesand one of the people.
Do you remember theconversation?
I think so.
One of the people you mentionedwas Peter Buck.
So when I saw the two of you upin Chattanooga back in January,
because of the way the seatsand the way the stage was
elevated, I found myselfconstantly trying to check out
(26:40):
Peter Buck's shoes.
He's got good shoes.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Lenny also wears good shoes.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
I'm styling some blue suede boots.
There you go.
Those are nice.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
I still have the same podcast shoes that we talked
about last time on.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
I still have my plantar fasciitis shoes on.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
That's exactly what you said last time.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
But it's funny.
But I will be wearing regularshoes tonight because I saw Cat
Power about eight months ago andshe wears some Jimmy Choo shoes
or whatever.
I said wow, I don't know howyou wear these.
She goes 80 minutes.
I got 80 minutes, and that'show I am.
I'll wear my nice shoes tonight.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
Yeah, I think it's really cool to have people of
different types of musicbackgrounds and driving and
crying.
At one point it was thissouthern rock band, not southern
as what you think of southernrock, but a rock band from the
south, the Kudzu we're the Kudzucircuit, yeah, and Patty Smith
group.
We talk about REM.
(27:40):
But to eventually have three ofyou from those bands morph to
play in a couple of nights, Ijust think that's cool.
I like stuff like that.
I really enjoy it and I thinkthe fans do from the shows that
I've been to.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
If you're open-minded and you don't want to just hear
straight to hell or something,if you're open-minded, that's
you know you will be very Ithink you'll enjoy yourself.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Now, you've always said you have to play Straight
to Hell at every Driving andCrying show.
Do you have to play it at thisshow?
Speaker 2 (28:11):
I mean Peter likes it , and you know.
I mean I don't have to doanything.
And I'm a Satanist so, yes, so,natchez, that's you know, but
yeah, yeah, so, but yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
So, lenny, 50 years ago you had Patti Smith Group
television, ramones, talkingHeads, blondie, all at CBGB.
What was that like?
And again, at the time, noone's big, no one's famous.
What is it like for all of youkind of making it at the same
time?
Speaker 4 (28:49):
Well, I wrote this book.
It's called Lightning Striking10 Transformative Moments in
Rock and Roll, and what Ibelieve is that sometimes the
locus of energy happens in alocality, a geographic time and
space.
It's something that Brian Enocalls scenius.
(29:11):
It's not really genius.
All about the people on thestage, it's the environment,
it's the audience, it's whatthey're wearing, it's what
they're rebelling against, whatthey're hoping to achieve.
Usually it's someplace off thepoint, someplace underground, if
(29:32):
you might, or one of them, andit's so out of the way.
It's on, you know, a derelictrow.
It's nobody there, and all thebands there are kind of mongrels
(29:53):
.
They don't know what they'redoing, so they all gather in
this place.
That gives them a place to play, and then they play for each
other in a weird way.
You know, in the first yearthere was never more than 20, 25
people watching television,make mistakes, ramones, get on
that stage and have a fight andstorm off and come back.
(30:15):
It's a place to hang out.
I mean, I get asked thisquestion what was it like?
You know, because it's allhindsight Then.
Then it was just I'm going togo down to my local, have a
drink.
Try to pick up the girl at theend of the bar, stand outside
yak with my friends, not evengoing in to see from Sire
(30:38):
Records singing doo-wop records,when all of a sudden he hears
the opening notes of the TalkingHeads', love Goes to a Building
on Fire and he says, oh, excuseme.
And he rushes in and signs them.
You know, it was just a barthat you happen to be in, which
is kind of great because it'syou know, you have time to
(31:02):
develop.
I worry these days because assoon as anybody does anything,
they put it on the Internet,they get it out there and you
don't have that time wherenobody's figured out.
One thing about CBGB was thatall the bands were completely
different.
Tom Verlaine once said thateach band was like a separate
(31:22):
idea.
And what was the United thingabout it?
Well, we were all kind ofmisfits and everyone took a long
time.
Patti Smith group we wereplaying once a month in some
folk club, to GeneralBewilderment.
But when we got to CBGB's andplayed there for seven straight
(31:43):
weeks in the spring of 75, threenights a week, with television
four nights a week we reallystarted understanding what it
was we were doing, getting agrasp on it.
And it's just an importantplace thing to have a place to
play.
You know what can I say inretrospect?
(32:05):
It was a hot, hotbed of energyand all of these kind of scenes,
as I call it, have a lifelineof about five years.
You know where?
You know you get this amorphousuh, solar energy coming
together, dust particles thatform a planet for a year or two,
and then it kind of startsfiltering out and it gets a name
(32:30):
like, well, say, punk or theBritish invasion, or rockabilly
or whatever, grunge.
And then it becomes defined and, as we just talked about,
that's kind of where it starts.
You know, by the time it getsout there and is known as grunge
(32:51):
or punk, or, you know, new waveor whatever the heck it would
be, it's over and then it's timeto start again.
And if you look at the placesthat I chose for my book,
they're all kind of off thepoint.
I mean, seattle didn't havemuch of anything.
I mean Jimi Hendrix did comefrom there, but all these bands,
they had time to get away andkind of understand what they
(33:16):
wanted to be, and that's animportant thing.
So yeah, I mean yeah, it was agolden age.
I look back on it and think,man, I was really glad to be
there, in the same way that Iwish I could have been there on
45th Street Excuse me, 52ndStreet in New York when Bebop
was being born.
You know that must have beengreat to walk along that little
(33:38):
strip.
The Three Deuces in the OnyxClub, and you know, I think I'll
see Charlie Parker tonight.
Or Dizzy Gillespie is over here.
Or you know, the folk revivalera in New York and Greenwich
Village.
It's just great when you getthese conglomerations of energy
(33:59):
and they turn into something,and sooner or later they need to
turn into something else.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
One of the amazing things you just mentioned the
folk revival and punk.
They were separatedgeographically by a few blocks,
right From CBGB's down BleekerStreet.
Speaker 4 (34:16):
I mean CBGB's.
Now, of course you go to theEast Village and it's like, you
know, really pretty nice, butyou got to remember what CBGBs.
Now, of course you go to theEast Village and it's like
really pretty nice, but you gotto remember what CBGBs was.
It was on the Bowery, which wasSkid Row.
After 5 or 6 o'clock, all therestaurant equipment stores
which was what was lining itclosed and it was desolate and
(34:38):
you think, oh yeah, 40 blocksuptown is the heartbeat of New
York City.
But you're there, there's aBum's Hotel above CBGB.
So you're standing on thestreet talking to your people
and a bottle comes soaring outthe bathroom.
It was just a dump thatactually allowed anything to
(35:02):
happen.
And that's what I'm.
That was Hilly's great thing.
He didn't try to likemanipulate it or he just said
the only thing you have to do isplay original music.
He didn't want cover bands and,you know, created a legend.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
It sure did I mean.
Again, if you go to the top 50albums of all time, three bands
from that time are in the top 50.
And you got the Ramones atnumber 47 with their debut album
, talking Heads at number 39with Remain in Light from 1980,
(35:38):
and we mentioned the Patti Smithgroup.
I just find that absolutelyfascinating, that three bands
from CBGB, this dump.
As you said, I didn't say ityou know, it's just a dump.
But the fact that there are somany people still, because this
(35:59):
was recently redone, I think in2023.
So this isn't an old list.
This is still what people think.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
Well, it's really nice that that music lives on,
but my inspiration for that wasthe San Francisco scene.
I'm living in New Jersey, I'mfinishing up college, I'm really
intrigued by the hippie worldand I have a Fillmore poster on
my wall.
This is beginning of 67.
(36:26):
It's got Grateful Dead,jefferson Airplane and
Quicksilver Messenger Service,three bands who were just, and
you have all the other ones, bigBrother and the Holding Company
that was a locus of energy.
There too, it's great to see.
Look at Seattle again Nirvana,soundgarden, pearl Jam, just to
(36:49):
take my three favorites, alicein Chains.
These are, and they're allcoming out of this little heated
core of creativity.
I like to see that happen.
Liverpool, okay, let's like tosee that happen.
You know Liverpool, okay, let'sgo to another obvious one.
You know the Beatles, jerry andthe Pacemakers, and you know.
(37:10):
Then they go to London and meetthe Rolling Stones.
It's like a crucible of energythat all of a sudden breaks free
from its geography and becomesworldwide, changes the face of
music in a very quick way.
I mean Memphis, sam Phillips,sun Records, elvis and Carl
(37:34):
Perkins, and you know, I meanit's great.
Detroit.
Here's another one Detroit, mc5, stooges.
Great detroit here's anotherone detroit, mc5, stooges and,
uh well, you know for me savagegrace or src.
But I just love when you know Ihate to use my own title but
lightning strikes you can'tpredict it it's usually not
(37:57):
where you're gonna.
When they try to do like a kindof scene, like they tried in
the 60s with boston, the Bostownsound, you know it's artificial
.
You can't predict where it'sgoing to happen.
And I look around now.
I mean there's a ton of greatmusic.
I like modern music.
I'm not one who says, oh, it'sbetter, then you know it's not.
(38:20):
You know music lives in thepresent and when I put on TikTok
radio, as I often do, I'm verymuch bemused by the songs and
the attitudes and the sounds.
You know sounds of the music.
But I look around for wherethat locus of geographic energy
(38:41):
is and I believe that theinternet has kind of diffused it
, so it's all over the place.
Maybe you know, and maybesomewhere on the internet
there's a little cluster oflike-minded musicians who are
formulating the future.
I look for it.
But I'm much more interested inlistening to Jamaican gospel.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
There you go.
So, kevin, driving and Crying.
You had mentioned recording anew album.
Have you started that?
Where are you in that process?
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Well, we played the Earl the other night.
That's part of our process.
I wish we could do it more.
My only regret to sometimes, inhaving a band that's kind of
has popped in Atlanta, we havecontracts for shows that are
coming up and I try to do theEarl.
I had to do it in a differentname Cesar Romero's, camaro,
(39:34):
things like that because we gotthings coming up.
I wish I could do more of thoseshows, because all these bands
that we're talking about Pattyand the Ramones and all these
bands, the RCBs that had records, those first records are always
really great because you get topractice them, you get to do
whole shows and you're doingthem over and over again.
The Cars first record theyplayed those songs for years and
(39:57):
years and sing, and then you doyour second record and you're
like you can't do.
I wish I could play everyMonday.
I got to do my solo thing, butI wish I could play every Monday
with Driving and Crying to workout the new record and just do
the same 10 songs over and overand over again.
We don't really have a practiceroom so we don't really do that
(40:17):
.
So we're in the process ofdoing it.
I might you know we have to dosome.
You know I wish we could do.
I mean I'm a little bitfrustrated in that I can't do
more, just do whatever I want todo anymore as far as, like you
know.
But you know we're going tostart March 8th in Nashville and
(40:41):
go and do that.
But I think it's going to begreat.
I'm going to keep it short,short and sweet.
It's hard to.
What I wanted to call it was.
My working title right now isAvoiding the Obvious for Dummies
.
My working title right now isAvoiding the Obvious for Dummies
.
But going back to what Lenny wassaying about the punk rock,
(41:04):
everyone talks about CBGBsbecause that was where the
record companies were and a lotof those bands got signed.
But at the same time inMilwaukee we also had a very
vibrant scene of 20 bands thatwere all different.
We had a bar called Zach's andthe Starship and Chicago had one
and Kansas City had one,nashville had one, and it was
(41:26):
just a really great thing.
And then the flashpoint waswhen we were like, oh, there's
something happening, thesepeople are getting signed or
whatever.
It was inspiring Because Iremember when Radio Ethiopia
came to Milwaukee and Sparksopened up, I mean that audience.
(41:49):
It was pretty sold out.
It was a great thing.
None of those people were fromNew York, they were all from
Milwaukee and they were veryexcited about this because they
also had similar.
We all had similar practicerooms and we all had similar
experiences growing up inAmerica and breaking through,
wanting to be heard and beingfrustrated and trying to find
(42:13):
art when you can find it andread.
And so we're like there's PattiSmith, she's doing, she's doing
poetry and there's like musicand it's really beautiful and
they're not.
I watched the Grammys the othernight and people were like oh,
how disappointing is it?
So the Grammys have always beencrap, exactly, you know.
They've always been crap.
(42:34):
Why are you surprised thoseGrammys really sucked?
They've always sucked.
Why are you pretending theydidn't?
Why are you surprised thatthose grammys really sucked?
They're like they've alwayssucked.
Why are you pretending they didthey?
When are you?
What are you expecting?
Speaker 4 (42:43):
you know so, uh, I'm so happy that the rolling stones
got best rock album finally.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Oh, it took him 50 years and just to be kind of
like the the rolling stone listthing, it's like I just I mean
I'm glad that they'reacknowledging certain things,
but just it's really just whitebusinessmen's list.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
I don't find it.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
I don't find it's endearing at all.
You know it's like I don't knowwhat lists are, but it is to me
.
You know, of course, all of ushorses would be top two, top
four, reckoning top ten.
Speaker 4 (43:23):
I mean, it's like I don't know.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Who cares about Rolling Stone?
I don't really.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
I hate Rolling Stone magazine, but for me I think
it's that I think a lot of timeswe forget history and I think
that as newer people come up,all of a sudden everything
becomes.
You know, taylor Swift orwhoever.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
Always been there, though Always been there.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
I like to me.
Pat Boone's always been there,yes, but I like the fact that
all these years later, thingsthat I can relate to, they still
are acknowledged and whetheryou agree with it or where it
should be or it shouldn't be,for me the fan, because I'm not
a singer If you heard me, youwouldn't want to hear me again.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
I don't know about that.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
That's what they said about Bob Dylan.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
That's good that people get acknowledged.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
I think that's where I'm coming from as a fan.
For me, it's still good to seethat they are giving good music.
That, I think, is good music isstill getting its credit all
these years later.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
It's like when somebody gets an award for Hall
of Fame, like the Rock and RollHall of Fame, that's really a
validation for fans, Becausefans, when Cheap Trick got in I
mean I know Cheap Trick as theband was finally relieved they
were in.
But it was more of a relief forCheap Trick fans.
They're like, ah, and everytime they have a new list of
(44:49):
people who are going to be inthe Rock and Roll Hall of Fame,
they always list the 60 peoplewho aren't in it, like
Brownsville Station, and I waslike what, why is that not in
the Hall of Fame?
I think the Hall of Fame shouldonly have people who you are
never going to hear of.
Speaker 4 (45:05):
That's my whole when I was on the nominating
committee, even though I've beenremoved.
I tried to get Johnny Holidayin there, because he's the only.
I mean he was gigantic inEurope and had more to do with
spreading the gospel of rock androll to people who don't speak
English, but I never got anytraction for that.
(45:26):
And now I'm, you know, now I'mI mean I wish it was the Rock
and Roll Museum and in a certainway I wish it was more about
rock and roll than trying to beevery pop music.
Now I feel like the Hall ofFame is more like the Chinese
menu one from column A, one fromcolumn B.
Speaker 3 (45:45):
You have to have this genre.
Speaker 4 (45:46):
Here's the metal entrant and here's this, and
sometimes it's divided by howmany records you sell, which is
like most of my, you know.
I mean I'm amazed that theRamones are in there, but why
aren't the Seeds?
But you know, I mean we're allone and I really sometimes I
(46:09):
think it's more of a badge ofhonor not to be in there because
, kevin, actually you said thatlast time you were on the show,
did I?
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (46:19):
You actually did say that.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
I was disgruntled.
Yeah, I mean yeah.
Speaker 4 (46:25):
I don't know.
I mean, they're all bowlingtrophies.
I got a couple of gold metallicrecords from Europe.
Horses never went gold.
As far as I at least, I don'thave the bowling trophy, but to
me I used to have a coupletrophy.
But you know, to me I used tohave a couple of them up on my
wall and then one day I lookedat them I said, you know, I'm
taking them down because I'm notone for what I did in the past.
(46:48):
I mean, nuggets has bought memore beers around the world than
anything and I don't have apiece of metal to hang on the
wall but it still lives on andthat, to me, is the greatest
compliment.
You can have A rogue record thatI put together with no sense.
It was A ever going to come out.
Tried not to make itcomprehensive, I just put my
(47:11):
favorite records there and itseems to have survived the
decades.
So what do you know?
Survive the decades, you know.
So you know.
What do you know?
It's all out there.
You know many of the recordsI've made over the years which I
thought were great when I was aworking record producer.
(47:33):
You know, nobody's ever heard.
You know I do a song when Iplay solo called Naked is the
Day by the Weather Prophets.
Nobody has ever heard thatrecord but to me it's one of the
greatest songs ever and perhapsyou can convince me to play it
tonight.
Speaker 3 (47:49):
There you go.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
You heard it here first.
Well, that's what's great aboutlistening to Lenny talk Right
now.
It's like I want to go findsome reggae gospel.
I mean, he's so inspiring to somany of us people because he's
still doing it and he's not henever.
I wrote a song called IanMcClaglin about.
You know some people they doone thing and talk about it
(48:11):
their whole life and some peoplejust keep on doing it.
That's what keeps us alive, andat the end of the show I go
Lenny K.
I know, end of the show, I goLenny K.
I now have some of the peoplethat are friends of mine keep
going Steve Wynn, lenny K,alejandro Escovido, all these
people who, just they havehistory, of course, but they're
constantly moving forward andturning me like.
Lenny has wrote a chapter in hisnew book about death metal,
(48:33):
about and it was like you know Iwas like I was like like I
remember we were doing somethingin New York and you're like oh,
I'm going uptown to see someSwedish death metal band and I'm
like Lenny Case.
I said what are you?
What you know, opeth?
That is so inspiring to me tojust keep on learning and being
open minded.
Speaker 4 (48:52):
You gotta you know yeah, you gotta keep your
neurons flashing, I mean, that'swhy I never think that it's
over for music.
I don't want to be like one ofthose people who says, oh, bebop
, why, jazz was really jazz whenit came out of New Orleans, or
(49:15):
whatever.
If you can find the key, that'sthe thing.
Music's I've never been able toslot.
I can appreciate them from afar, but I remember the moment I
understood bebop.
I was always like, oh yeah,charlie Parker's a genius Great,
so you acknowledge that.
But do you hear his genius?
And then one day I'm listeningto the Columbia Station, his
(49:39):
genius.
And then one day I'm listeningto the Columbia station and
they're playing records by thispianist named Dodo Marmarosa,
and Dodo was in Californiaduring the mid 40s and played
with Charlie Parker.
He later went a little insaneand pushed a piano out a third
story window to see what itsounded like when it hit the
(50:00):
ground did he record it?
Speaker 1 (50:01):
I hope I don't think so.
Speaker 4 (50:05):
But he had a song called bopmatism.
And I'm listening to the radioand all of a sudden I said, wow,
this is really catchy.
And then, all of a sudden, Igot an insight into what the
sound of bebop must have been on52nd Street, the punk rock of
its day, you know, except theyused flatted fifths or whatever
the heck they are.
(50:25):
But you know, all of a sudden Igot it.
And then you know, there's therabbit hole yawning to
understand.
You know Charlie Parker's workand you know all these great,
incredible players and the onesthat are not legends.
You know Red Mitchell and youknow, just to see what it was
like in that moment in time tothe excitement of musical
(50:47):
discovery and I think that'swhat you're talking about, kevin
it's like, yeah, I'm in somestrange rabbit hole where, you
know, lucy Myers is my heroine.
But I got to say, you know,it's like when you find
something that turns you on,like Donny Hathaway turned me on
yesterday.
I was like whoa, I have tolisten to more of him.
Speaker 3 (51:08):
Doesn't he have a Christmas song?
Speaker 4 (51:10):
Yes, he does.
I've never heard it.
I'm just starting to dig thatexcavation.
Speaker 3 (51:15):
Because I'm like, wait a minute.
I know that name and I've beenthinking this Christmas, yes.
Speaker 4 (51:22):
I mean, it's all out there.
I mean, that's one of the greatthings about the internet is
that, if I happen to be on abyway of Algerian music, a
couple of years ago this greatRai, master of Algerian music,
passed away.
I couldn't tell you his name,but you know, instead of going
(51:44):
out to Brooklyn to go to theArab record shops or, you know,
trying to find it at yourfriend's record shop in Athens.
Speaker 2 (51:52):
Right, yo-yo, lo-yo-lo, yo-yo, yeah, todd's,
todd's.
Speaker 4 (51:57):
Todd's Todd's store.
You know I said, okay, whatdoes this guy sound like?
I mean, when I did my croonerbook you Call it Madness about
the crooners of the late 1920sand early 30s, bing Crosby and
Rudy Valli and Russ Colombo abook, I have to say that nobody
(52:18):
who knew me understood why I didit and nobody who knew Bing
Crosby or those guys wereoff-put by the wacky writing
style.
But I heard this scratchy 78 onone of those FM stations all
the way to the left of the dialdriving home one night.
(52:38):
You know, potted out and theannouncer started talking about
Russ Colombo.
That he, you know, was theBattle of the Baritones with
Bing Crosby.
He died in a dueling pistolaccident with his best friend.
He was supposed to be marriedto Kara Lombard and when he died
his mother was ill with a heartattack and was blind.
(53:02):
So they didn't tell her and for10 years they wrote letters to
her Hi, mom, I'm in Italy, oh myLord.
And I thought, wow, that's sogreat.
And if the internet was there Iwould have woken up the next
morning, gone on oh, that's RussColombo, interesting.
And gone on to something else.
But I had to go to the libraryget the newspaper on microfilm
(53:29):
from September of 1934, read hisstory and look at all the
surrounding advertisements, andsuddenly I'm in this world where
I spent eight years plowingaround his story and look at all
the surrounding advertisements,and you know, and suddenly I'm
in this world where I spenteight years plowing around and
it was a great.
You know, I mean, but you knowso sometimes it's too easy to
(53:51):
get this stuff.
It's really fun when you, Imean the Jay Bacon gospel, I
there's one guy who I know hasit, and my friend who owns the
record store in the town that Imean the J Bacon Gospel.
There's one guy who I know hasit and my friend who owns the
record store in the town that Ilive.
He bought a big collection andthere's a couple on tabernacle
records.
There you go.
I mean, anyway, I love the huntand I love the research and I
(54:12):
love music.
I mean my astrology— itdefinitely comes across love
music it definitely comes across.
I wake up, I get to play music,I get to hang out with my
musical pals, I get to listen tomusic, I get to write about it
and I'm a fan of it.
Speaker 2 (54:31):
Some people have podcasts dedicated to it To help
educate other people to turnthese things on.
So thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (54:37):
You're welcome and I know we could sit here all day
and we could tell stories allday long.
Speaker 4 (54:43):
Kevin and I have to practice for our very
well-choreographed show.
Speaker 3 (54:47):
I'm looking forward because I'll be at the second
show.
I'm looking forward to thedancing, and I do have to do a
shout-out because my boss let mecome take an extended lunch so
that I could actually come outand sit with all of you.
So, eric, thank you very much.
Speaker 4 (55:01):
Thank you, Eric.
I do appreciate that, Eric.
Speaker 3 (55:02):
Well done you the man , you the man.
That is a shout out.
I really appreciate both of youcoming by.
I mean this has been fantastic,you know, hearing about things
from the past and the presentand talking a little bit about
the future, and thank you both.
Speaker 4 (55:19):
Thanks for having us.
Thanks for having us.
Speaker 3 (55:21):
Yes, it's been wonderful having you here on
Music In my Shoes.
That's it for episode 68 ofMusic In my Shoes.
I'd like to thank Kevin Kinneyand Lenny Kay for joining us
today.
That was pretty awesome.
I'd like to thank Jimmy Guthrie, show producer and owner of
Arcade 160 Studios located righthere in Atlanta, georgia, and
(55:44):
Vic Thrill for our podcast music.
This is Jim Boge, and I hopeyou learned something new or
remembered something old.
We'll meet again on our nextepisode.
Until then, live life and keepthe music playing.
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