May 7, 2025 • 30 mins
This first episode explores the backgrounds of Erin Guinup and Orlando Morales, directors of the Tacoma Refugee Choir. This episode looks at histories of belonging, how we cross thesholds into belonging, and the role of the voice and choir in cultivating belonging. Exploring Erin Guinup's travels abroad, we look at how travel opens our acceptance of hospitality and gives us the life changing experience of not belonging as we lean into the generosity of others. Finally, the episode concludes with an exploration of Orlando Morales' background in theatre, what theatre and story telling does for us, and how we benefit from holding space for stories at the margins.
The Music & Peacebuilding Podcast is hosted by Kevin Shorner-Johnson at Elizabethtown College. Join our professional development network at www.musicpeacebuilding.com - thinking deeply we reclaim space for connection and care.
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Episode Transcript
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Orlando Morales (00:00):
Why the act of choral singing is important, I
think it's that it connects usto this, this very primordial
spirit. It reminds us of ourhumanity and that part of our
humanity that is social.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (00:14):
You are listening to season four of the
music and peace buildingpodcast, a podcast season
focused on multi facetedtextures of belonging. Our
podcast explores intersectionsof peacebuilding, sacredness,
community, creativity andimagination through research and
story. Erin Guinup was thefounding executive and artistic
(00:35):
director of the Tacoma refugeechoir. She has spoken at TEDx
Seattle, led community singingevents and has spoken at
national conferences for chorusAmerica, National Association of
Teachers of singing, ACDA, andthe International Congress of
voice teachers in Stockholm,Sweden. As a solo artist and
sought after teacher, Aaron hasperformed as A guest soloist
(00:59):
with ensembles includingSymphony Tacoma, Ensign symphony
and Northwest repertory singers.
Orlando Morales serves asArtistic Director for Tacoma
refugee choir. He hassignificant experience teaching
music and theater and as an artsadministrator he works to
empower young people and buildstronger communities. He is a
(01:20):
Johnny Mercer foundationsongwriters project alum, a
Jonathan Larson grant finalistand received a National
Fellowship from the DramatistsGuild foundation in 2024 This
podcast is a journey across twoyears of conversations about the
Tacoma refugee choir or the TRC,the first interview with Erin
(01:43):
Guinup took place two yearsprior, when she was the director
of the TRC. The second interviewis with Orlando Morales, the
newly named director of theTacoma refugee choir. Weaving
these two interviews togetheracross a two part series, we
look at what it means to belong,how choir might construct
(02:03):
places, relations, spaces andidentities, and finally, how we
might expand space for diversestories of migration, belonging
and identity.
The first episode is a shorterintroduction to the longer
second episode that examinesexperiences of belonging and
(02:23):
belonging uncertainty and whatchoral contexts do for
belonging. I first asked Erinand Orlando how they experience
belonging in artistic contexts.
So as we get started, I knowthat, you know, there's
definitely a story in 2006 asyou go to a conference, that is
the origins of your move towardsa refugee choir. But from
(02:46):
listening to earlier podcasts, Ithink the story of of what it
means to belong musicallyhappens a lot earlier for you,
and you've talked a little bitabout what it meant to belong
the middle school level, andthere's obviously a really
gifted music teacher there, andyou seem to find the space where
you're not bullied, and you comeinto being. So I wondered if you
(03:08):
could start the start theconversation, maybe there or
earlier, about where doesmusical belonging start for you?
Erin Guinup (03:16):
I think being in middle school where I was
bullied and coming out of apretty traumatic experience for
my family made me feel reallyisolated, alone and hurting, and
so to to have all of thosethings feel like the world was
against me and that there was nosafe spaces for me, to find a
safe space in the choir roomwhere it was, it was literally
(03:37):
the place I went to escape thebullies, and then first I'm
safe, and then I start feelingaccepted and ultimately loved.
When you start feeling safe toshare your emotions and realize
the bullies aren't coming intothis space and the outside world
isn't coming into this spacethat I could start to identify
(04:02):
who I was. To a small degree, Ifeel like life is a whole
lifelong journey of figuringthat out, but I think that that
was a really important momentfor me to feel safe in the choir
room and to be seen.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (04:17):
So I asked Erin this personal
question as well, and I want toask you the same question. I
think all of us artists havesome kind of narrative or story
where we said that, hey, this iswhere I belong. I'm a musician,
or I'm a in the case of mydaughter, I'm a theater nerd,
or, you know, this is my place.
So tell me about the story,about the story of your journey
(04:40):
to belong, either musically ortheatrically or both, and where
and how did you find belonging?
Unknown (04:48):
Well, it's kind of hard to pinpoint for me, a starting
point, because I do come from amusical family. I... my dad When
I was born, was playing music,like in a cover band around town
in Seattle, and my dad's dad, somy grandfather was a
(05:10):
professional musician in thePhilippines. So he was in a big
band there, went to music schooland handled a lot of the music
in in their town in thePhilippines. And so there's kind
of a there's like this legendarynarrative around my grandfather
and his ties to music, and thenalso just the role that music
(05:36):
played in our family before Iwas even born. So by the time I
came into the picture, there wasalready a rich musical
environment around me. And thestory goes is that my dad would
take me to the rehearsals thathe would have, and some of his
buddies noticed that I keptplaying on the piano, and they
(05:59):
encouraged him to... I'd beremiss to say my mom was also a
piano player and accordionplayer. So, yeah, I think I was,
in a way, some people are kindof born into religion, which I
also was. I was born intoCatholicism, but I there was a
musicianship that was reallyprevalent, I think, in my
(06:21):
family.
So they got me into pianolessons very early on. I think I
was four or five years old fromlittle old church organist. And
so I if I was gonna pinpointsome early moments of belonging,
I would say, definitely,probably being at family parties
(06:44):
where the ethos back then waswas like, Hey, we don't
necessarily need to put a recordon we could, you know, jump on a
organ or jump on the, you know,guitar and do our own music at
this party or at This wedding orat this funeral. My grandparents
sang sunrise, sunset at myparents wedding, accompanied by
(07:07):
our family, or, I think inthose, probably in those early
piano lessons, I had a verywarm, loving teacher who was
probably one of the first whitepeople that I had interactions
with to a, you know, greaterextent. So at that I'd spent
some time with and built arelationship with with she was
(07:28):
very open hearted and very opento some of the musical
traditions that I was bringingto the table. I was pretty
stubborn at that early point,about, like, playing a lot by
ear, you know, I just kind ofpretend that I was reading the
notes, and she caught on to thatvery quickly, but still made
sure that I was getting somefoundations. So I think that
(07:52):
private lesson situation was wasa big moment of belonging for me
is that she, she was like, Hey,I, you know, I, we don't come
from the same musicalbackground, but there's
something that I know you wantto do, and I want to support
that.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (08:07):
In acceptance and openness.
Orlando's private teacher madespace for difference, identity
and agency. I asked Orlandoabout his journey to the Tacoma
refugee choir and the acceptanceand hospitality that opens
thresholds of belonging. Afterlooking at groups that were
supported by the MJ MurdochCharitable Trust Orlando, found
(08:31):
his way to the Tacoma refugeechoir,
Unknown (08:36):
and I noticed there was there a lot of groups on there,
but I did notice one called theTacoma refugee choir, which I
never heard of before, and itsounded like an amazing group to
even just just connect with, forfor my work in the theater. So I
connected with them. And ofcourse, you know, Erin had this
big heart, and was like, Hey,why don't you come to one of our
(08:56):
rehearsals? We always needaccompanist, or we always need,
you know, a piano player wouldbe really great. So I went
there, and as I'm finding, is atypical story for folks who got
involved with Tacoma refugeechoir walked in the door and
immediately welcomed in. Hi, howare you doing? Are you here to
(09:18):
sing with us? Just just folkswho were curious and warm. And I
was like, No, I'm just actuallyhere to play a little bit of
piano. And so I did what, at thetime was just a little gig, you
know, I was helping them in therehearsal, but also clocking at
the time. You know, there's somekids running around. There are
(09:38):
all sorts of different people.
They were singing on that night,I think, in French and
Vietnamese and, you know, in allkinds of different styles. And
that just really affected me sothoroughly on that that first
kind of, that first exposure toto what they do, I.
(10:07):
[Moon song][Moon Song]For me, it was more like, hey,
(10:27):
the the beginning, thefoundations of the mission of
this organization. Tacomarefugee choir is the community
we're starting from the groundup, and it's being shaped by by
the needs of the folks who havecome together and not
necessarily in service of aspecific artistic tradition.
That felt really liberating forme. It still does, and it's a
(10:50):
little scary sometimes, becauseyou're like, Well, what? What's
the North Star artistically andkind of learning that North Star
artistically doesn't necessarilylook the same for this
organization, and it looks morelike something in the world of
(11:12):
relationships and the changethat we want To see in Tacoma.
So all that said it was yeah,that that was a moment of
belonging. Definitely, itdefinitely stuck with me. And I
couldn't, at that point,couldn't imagine myself being
(11:32):
involved with another project.
And so just was really excitedto jump in [Moon Song...]
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (12:20):
What do you think is powerful about
choral contexts in particular,if we talk about voice and
belonging, and what thoseparticular spaces open up?
Unknown (12:30):
Yeah, obviously, I think our voices are part of our
body, so it's it's even moreinextricably connected with
identity than I think any otherinstrumentation, and that's not
to say that that's not connectedto identity, but it's very
tangibly connected to the bodyand soul, I think, for both good
(12:50):
and bad, right? So someone whois told that they don't have a
good voice, I think it stealspart of that identity and forces
them to close off a part of whothey are, because people don't
want to acknowledge that partthat someone might say is a bad
part of who they are. But whenwe when we do feel like we can
(13:11):
sing, I think you start to singand you can feel you have a
voice in a lot of differentsettings. So not only do I have
a voice to sing, but I have avoice to speak up for myself
when someone's trying to hurtme. I have a voice to speak up
for myself when my interests arenot being met. I have a voice to
speak up for myself and for mycommunity that may not be heard.
(13:47):
[Moon Song]
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (13:51):
In his conversations on the social
psychology of belonging,Geoffrey Cohen names that an
experience of unbelonging canalso be powerful. Brief periods
of quote, feeling out of place,challenge, limited world views
and cultural norms become apractice of humility and
vulnerability and openpossibilities for unexpected
(14:15):
hospitality. Geoffrey Cohennotes that travel is one
activity where humans mostnaturally experience an
unmooring of what it means tobelong.
Okay, so my next question is abit of a risk, and we'll just
see if it goes anywhere or not.
But So you mentioned that you'vebeen to Europe, and I know it's
(14:35):
part of your educationalprogram, but I also saw that you
were traveling alone, and maybewe can also name that as we move
later into the conversationabout refugees, we we
acknowledge like the privilegeof what it is to be able to move
in the world. But there is asense when you travel of not
belonging, and in some sensethat that experience is a very
(14:57):
rich experience. Because itreally unmoors your sense of
what normal is, and then theacts of hospitality that are
received feel very radical inthose moments. I mean, that's
been my experience. I would loveto hear some of your
reflections, as you said abouttraveling in Europe,
Erin Guinup (15:17):
I think for me, I mean, I've traveled alone a
couple of times now, and eachtime I've started these trips
with so much anxiety. And whaton earth am I thinking that I
can do this? I and that's how itwas true on this recent trip to
(15:37):
Italy where I What was Ithinking that I could travel
alone for three weeks. And whoam I to think that that I can
survive this long, and I justhad a lot of question marks. But
because you're alone, I think acouple of things happen. One, I
started listening to myselfdifferently when, which was, I
(16:00):
think, really important. I thinkyou have to balance that,
because I think you can listento yourself too much and get
into a circle, but I think I'vebeen so busy of late that it was
a gift to have this time to haveconversation with myself. And
then I think because you'realone, you're more open, or at
least, I felt more open. So whensomeone did make a bid for my
(16:23):
attention, they.. with a smile.
I was so eager to respond withthat bid for attention. And
beautiful relationships started,whether it's sitting alone at a
table and people invite me toeat dinner with them, or the man
who just saw me sitting alone inmass, and he's like, Oh, here's
the music. Do you want to sing?
(16:45):
Do you sing? And yeah, I sing.
He had no idea that I was asinger, but it was such a gift
to be invited. And I think thatthat's because there's an
openness when you are travelingalone. And absolutely it's such
a privilege. It's a privilege Ididn't know that I could have
for much of my life. I didn'tfeel like I felt like it was too
expensive or too... it was forother people. But I'm so
(17:08):
grateful to have gotten to apoint where I feel like I can do
that as well.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (17:14):
I think I would reflect back to you that
when I last went to Azerbaijan,I had read Rick Steves article
on travel as a political act,and I was playing with this idea
about, like, what is travel as apeacebuilding act, especially
knowing how much carbon that Iwould burn to get to Azerbaijan,
and really wrestling with theethical question of like, is, is
(17:37):
it worth it for me to go there?
And I decided to be worth itthat I would establish this pen
pal relationship with a personin Azerbaijan, and got there,
and then he told me that he wasgoing to pick me up at 5am the
next morning, and it felt like areally risky scenario. And yet,
this person, this family, pickedme up at 5am the next morning
and took me all over the caucusmountains in the most think one
(17:58):
of the most beautiful days I'veever had, and the richness of
the hospitality there very muchunmoored me, at least it's not
what I expect on a day to daybasis. In my current life, I
Erin Guinup (18:13):
I had the same experience. I'm thinking, Why
are you being so kind to me? Andyet there was such an openness
that that fed my soul in adeeply beautiful way to to feel
like you're at home in a placethat is not your home is an
(18:35):
incredible gift, and I came backwanting to create those spaces
In my own life, more at a deeperlevel
Unknown (19:14):
[music break],
Orlando Morales (19:55):
The voice is that instrument that you know
most people have access to,right? You don't, you don't have
to take out a loan to get one.
You don't have to, like, youknow, find some way to get this
instrument and make the music,right? And so there's, there's
only a handful of opportunitieslike that that we have in the
Western tradition, right? And sothere's that access point. On a
(20:17):
more kind of metaphorical orphilosophical note, its like
when we start to put voicestogether, there's something that
communicates to me about aboutthe building of community, or
the building of relationships,or the power of the human spirit
(20:39):
to connect with other people.
There is something that'ssubtextual there, I think no
matter what you're singing, sowe start to put the voices
together, and there's somethingthat communicates to us about
(20:59):
this primordial human need, orour predilection to connect with
others that, for me, is at theheart of choral ensembles and
why we get together and we writethese beautiful pieces of music
For soprano, alto, tenor, bass,or, in non Western traditions,
(21:23):
just the act of harmony orsinging together. So there's
something that I feel like isalmost grammatical about it,
like in the Chomskian sense,like there's something that, you
know, we all have adjectives andverbs, you know, across
languages, and then we all havesome kind of singing together
(21:44):
situation. And so there'ssomething inherent in the act,
and in that heritage and that,that human tradition that we
have that's important but needsto be cultivated.
Why the act of choral singing isimportant. I think it's a it
connects us to this, this veryprimordial spirit. It reminds us
(22:08):
of our humanity, and that partof the of our humanity that is
social, that needs other people,and that helps other people.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (22:19):
Because of Orlando's experience in
theater, our conversation turnedto a broader dialog about the
arts and how permeableboundaries of the arts are
workshops of belonging, craftingsenses of selves into multi
faceted, interconnected selvesthrough listening, performing
(22:39):
and watching.
Orlando Morales (22:41):
There's something about that experience
not being able to be captured injust one mode of art making. So
it's like, yeah, we got, we dohave drama. Drama. Drama is
going along. But then we get toa point where it's like, oh, the
human here on on stage, thecharacter that's trying to be
captured is bigger than justdrama, so we have to break into
(23:04):
a different art form. And eventhat just feels like a very
western lens to put on it. It'slike, if we look in other
cultures, there's really noline, you know, between the
singing, the drama and thesinging and the dance. It's just
all one thing. So it's kind ofreally interesting how, how, you
know, in my, from my westernpoint of view, there's these
(23:26):
partitions, there's like, that'sballet, this is opera, this, but
those don't exist elsewhere. Buteven with that lens, there is a
power, I think, in acknowledgingthat humans are multifaceted.
And so, you know, have this modeof storytelling that needs all
the tools that we have, youknow, available us to capture
(23:48):
this human experience.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (23:51):
Research by Madeline Brewer has taught me
that belonging is a delicatebalance between an assimilated
self and an individuated self.
We need the arts to feel lessalone, to feel the security and
affirmations of aninterconnected whole, and we
need the arts to open stages andwindows where we might perform
(24:14):
our individuated stories and payattention to the stories of
others. The Arts allow us toplay with the size of the self,
making ourselves big on thestage and then smaller so we
open new windows of perspective.
(24:35):
This is the artistic work ofbelonging.
Orlando Morales (24:46):
The art there, to me, is like inherently
inviting and does a kind ofreflection back on people that
already make you feel a part ofsomething. And like less alone.
I think, you know, it makes mefeel less alone in my
experience, feeling multifacetedand and me having a singer
(25:08):
inside me or not, or, you know,a singing version of myself. And
then just when we kind of take astep back and include the
audience in a theater, theaterexperience, I'm borrowing from
things I've read, but thingsthat have really resonated with
me, that you know, it is uniqueto ask people to kind of sit
(25:33):
there for, let's say, 90minutes, because I love a 90
minute show, at least 90minutes, sometimes three hours,
right? We're gonna ask you tosit there and, like, watch
somebody else's story, right?
And to pay attention. That's theinvitation, and that's ask. So
there's something remarkable andmiraculous, one, in being...
(25:53):
people being like, oh yes, okay,I will sit there and I will
watch somebody else's story,right? Not my own, but somebody
else's, and I will do it for 90minutes, you know, politely, you
know, you know. And that doesn'talways happen that way, but
that's that's the premise,right? And so we're sitting
(26:16):
there for 90 minutes to threehours, and we're paying
attention to somebody else'sstory. And I think it's Paul
Woodruff, the academic, whosays, like that's that's the
basis of ethics, payingattention to somebody else's
story, and some people frame itas empathy. I don't know if we
(26:37):
always are successful in goingthat far. I definitely think
that there's an opportunity tofoster empathy and cultivate
empathy. But for me, it's noteven if you don't get that far
right, just the act, thepractice of sitting - Okay, I'm
gonna come here, I'm gonna sitdown, I'm gonna pay attention to
something else, and we don'teven have, like, if we could do
(27:02):
that, you know, maybe watching amovie at home. But I think it's
really common for us to actuallyhave, like, our other screen,
and we're scrolling while that'shappening, so it's not even
really happening there. Theateris special, I think, in this
cultural moment, in that it'sone of the few spaces where we
(27:25):
really have to, like, okay, herewe are, sit down. Maybe church
is another one. But like, we'recoming in, sitting down, paying
attention to something elsethat's really important, and
we're doing it together. Sothere's something important to
me and necessary in terms of oursociety. Of like we need these
opportunities to practice beingthe human beings that we want to
(27:50):
be. And I want to live in asociety where human beings make
space to listen to other peopleand agree to do that as a group
of people. I think that's reallyimportant
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (28:04):
In the necessity of theater. Paul
Woodruff writes about the powerof collective attention,
framing, mimesis and critical,reflective imagination. He
writes about the watching thattakes place within theater.
Quote, there is an art towatching and being watched, and
(28:24):
that is one of the few artswhich all human living depends.
If we are unwatched, we diminishand we cannot be entirely as we
wish to be. If we never stop towatch, we will know only how it
feels to be us. Never how itmight feel to be another. Watch
(28:45):
too much or in the wrong way. Webecome frightened. Watching too
much. We lose the capacity foraction in our own lives.
Watching well together and beingwatched well with limits on both
sides, we grow and growtogether.
Our artistic spaces may be siteswhere we work our mattering and
(29:11):
in turn, where we work out whatit means to belong. The arts
teach us that nuance matters,and in our subtle gestures of
hospitality, we might act ourway into more generous
belonging.
In part two of this podcast, wewill dive deep into the Tacoma
(29:32):
refugee choir, looking at itsmission statement, collaborative
spaces of music, empoweringsong, re-territorializing of
space, and finally, theimportance of language, choices,
agency and story. This is themusic and peace building podcast
hosted by Kevin Shorner Johnsonat Elizabethtown College. We
(29:54):
host a master of music educationwith an emphasis in
peacebuilding. Think. Deeply, wereclaim space for connection and
care. Join us at musicpeacebuilding.com.
Why the act of choral singing is important, I
think it's that it connects usto this, this very primordial
spirit. It reminds us of ourhumanity and that part of our
humanity that is social.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (00:14):
You are listening to season four of the
music and peace buildingpodcast, a podcast season
focused on multi facetedtextures of belonging. Our
podcast explores intersectionsof peacebuilding, sacredness,
community, creativity andimagination through research and
story. Erin Guinup was thefounding executive and artistic
(00:35):
director of the Tacoma refugeechoir. She has spoken at TEDx
Seattle, led community singingevents and has spoken at
national conferences for chorusAmerica, National Association of
Teachers of singing, ACDA, andthe International Congress of
voice teachers in Stockholm,Sweden. As a solo artist and
sought after teacher, Aaron hasperformed as A guest soloist
(00:59):
with ensembles includingSymphony Tacoma, Ensign symphony
and Northwest repertory singers.
Orlando Morales serves asArtistic Director for Tacoma
refugee choir. He hassignificant experience teaching
music and theater and as an artsadministrator he works to
empower young people and buildstronger communities. He is a
(01:20):
Johnny Mercer foundationsongwriters project alum, a
Jonathan Larson grant finalistand received a National
Fellowship from the DramatistsGuild foundation in 2024 This
podcast is a journey across twoyears of conversations about the
Tacoma refugee choir or the TRC,the first interview with Erin
(01:43):
Guinup took place two yearsprior, when she was the director
of the TRC. The second interviewis with Orlando Morales, the
newly named director of theTacoma refugee choir. Weaving
these two interviews togetheracross a two part series, we
look at what it means to belong,how choir might construct
(02:03):
places, relations, spaces andidentities, and finally, how we
might expand space for diversestories of migration, belonging
and identity.
The first episode is a shorterintroduction to the longer
second episode that examinesexperiences of belonging and
(02:23):
belonging uncertainty and whatchoral contexts do for
belonging. I first asked Erinand Orlando how they experience
belonging in artistic contexts.
So as we get started, I knowthat, you know, there's
definitely a story in 2006 asyou go to a conference, that is
the origins of your move towardsa refugee choir. But from
(02:46):
listening to earlier podcasts, Ithink the story of of what it
means to belong musicallyhappens a lot earlier for you,
and you've talked a little bitabout what it meant to belong
the middle school level, andthere's obviously a really
gifted music teacher there, andyou seem to find the space where
you're not bullied, and you comeinto being. So I wondered if you
(03:08):
could start the start theconversation, maybe there or
earlier, about where doesmusical belonging start for you?
Erin Guinup (03:16):
I think being in middle school where I was
bullied and coming out of apretty traumatic experience for
my family made me feel reallyisolated, alone and hurting, and
so to to have all of thosethings feel like the world was
against me and that there was nosafe spaces for me, to find a
safe space in the choir roomwhere it was, it was literally
(03:37):
the place I went to escape thebullies, and then first I'm
safe, and then I start feelingaccepted and ultimately loved.
When you start feeling safe toshare your emotions and realize
the bullies aren't coming intothis space and the outside world
isn't coming into this spacethat I could start to identify
(04:02):
who I was. To a small degree, Ifeel like life is a whole
lifelong journey of figuringthat out, but I think that that
was a really important momentfor me to feel safe in the choir
room and to be seen.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (04:17):
So I asked Erin this personal
question as well, and I want toask you the same question. I
think all of us artists havesome kind of narrative or story
where we said that, hey, this iswhere I belong. I'm a musician,
or I'm a in the case of mydaughter, I'm a theater nerd,
or, you know, this is my place.
So tell me about the story,about the story of your journey
(04:40):
to belong, either musically ortheatrically or both, and where
and how did you find belonging?
Unknown (04:48):
Well, it's kind of hard to pinpoint for me, a starting
point, because I do come from amusical family. I... my dad When
I was born, was playing music,like in a cover band around town
in Seattle, and my dad's dad, somy grandfather was a
(05:10):
professional musician in thePhilippines. So he was in a big
band there, went to music schooland handled a lot of the music
in in their town in thePhilippines. And so there's kind
of a there's like this legendarynarrative around my grandfather
and his ties to music, and thenalso just the role that music
(05:36):
played in our family before Iwas even born. So by the time I
came into the picture, there wasalready a rich musical
environment around me. And thestory goes is that my dad would
take me to the rehearsals thathe would have, and some of his
buddies noticed that I keptplaying on the piano, and they
(05:59):
encouraged him to... I'd beremiss to say my mom was also a
piano player and accordionplayer. So, yeah, I think I was,
in a way, some people are kindof born into religion, which I
also was. I was born intoCatholicism, but I there was a
musicianship that was reallyprevalent, I think, in my
(06:21):
family.
So they got me into pianolessons very early on. I think I
was four or five years old fromlittle old church organist. And
so I if I was gonna pinpointsome early moments of belonging,
I would say, definitely,probably being at family parties
(06:44):
where the ethos back then waswas like, Hey, we don't
necessarily need to put a recordon we could, you know, jump on a
organ or jump on the, you know,guitar and do our own music at
this party or at This wedding orat this funeral. My grandparents
sang sunrise, sunset at myparents wedding, accompanied by
(07:07):
our family, or, I think inthose, probably in those early
piano lessons, I had a verywarm, loving teacher who was
probably one of the first whitepeople that I had interactions
with to a, you know, greaterextent. So at that I'd spent
some time with and built arelationship with with she was
(07:28):
very open hearted and very opento some of the musical
traditions that I was bringingto the table. I was pretty
stubborn at that early point,about, like, playing a lot by
ear, you know, I just kind ofpretend that I was reading the
notes, and she caught on to thatvery quickly, but still made
sure that I was getting somefoundations. So I think that
(07:52):
private lesson situation was wasa big moment of belonging for me
is that she, she was like, Hey,I, you know, I, we don't come
from the same musicalbackground, but there's
something that I know you wantto do, and I want to support
that.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (08:07):
In acceptance and openness.
Orlando's private teacher madespace for difference, identity
and agency. I asked Orlandoabout his journey to the Tacoma
refugee choir and the acceptanceand hospitality that opens
thresholds of belonging. Afterlooking at groups that were
supported by the MJ MurdochCharitable Trust Orlando, found
(08:31):
his way to the Tacoma refugeechoir,
Unknown (08:36):
and I noticed there was there a lot of groups on there,
but I did notice one called theTacoma refugee choir, which I
never heard of before, and itsounded like an amazing group to
even just just connect with, forfor my work in the theater. So I
connected with them. And ofcourse, you know, Erin had this
big heart, and was like, Hey,why don't you come to one of our
(08:56):
rehearsals? We always needaccompanist, or we always need,
you know, a piano player wouldbe really great. So I went
there, and as I'm finding, is atypical story for folks who got
involved with Tacoma refugeechoir walked in the door and
immediately welcomed in. Hi, howare you doing? Are you here to
(09:18):
sing with us? Just just folkswho were curious and warm. And I
was like, No, I'm just actuallyhere to play a little bit of
piano. And so I did what, at thetime was just a little gig, you
know, I was helping them in therehearsal, but also clocking at
the time. You know, there's somekids running around. There are
(09:38):
all sorts of different people.
They were singing on that night,I think, in French and
Vietnamese and, you know, in allkinds of different styles. And
that just really affected me sothoroughly on that that first
kind of, that first exposure toto what they do, I.
(10:07):
[Moon song][Moon Song]For me, it was more like, hey,
(10:27):
the the beginning, thefoundations of the mission of
this organization. Tacomarefugee choir is the community
we're starting from the groundup, and it's being shaped by by
the needs of the folks who havecome together and not
necessarily in service of aspecific artistic tradition.
That felt really liberating forme. It still does, and it's a
(10:50):
little scary sometimes, becauseyou're like, Well, what? What's
the North Star artistically andkind of learning that North Star
artistically doesn't necessarilylook the same for this
organization, and it looks morelike something in the world of
(11:12):
relationships and the changethat we want To see in Tacoma.
So all that said it was yeah,that that was a moment of
belonging. Definitely, itdefinitely stuck with me. And I
couldn't, at that point,couldn't imagine myself being
(11:32):
involved with another project.
And so just was really excitedto jump in [Moon Song...]
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (12:20):
What do you think is powerful about
choral contexts in particular,if we talk about voice and
belonging, and what thoseparticular spaces open up?
Unknown (12:30):
Yeah, obviously, I think our voices are part of our
body, so it's it's even moreinextricably connected with
identity than I think any otherinstrumentation, and that's not
to say that that's not connectedto identity, but it's very
tangibly connected to the bodyand soul, I think, for both good
(12:50):
and bad, right? So someone whois told that they don't have a
good voice, I think it stealspart of that identity and forces
them to close off a part of whothey are, because people don't
want to acknowledge that partthat someone might say is a bad
part of who they are. But whenwe when we do feel like we can
(13:11):
sing, I think you start to singand you can feel you have a
voice in a lot of differentsettings. So not only do I have
a voice to sing, but I have avoice to speak up for myself
when someone's trying to hurtme. I have a voice to speak up
for myself when my interests arenot being met. I have a voice to
speak up for myself and for mycommunity that may not be heard.
(13:47):
[Moon Song]
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (13:51):
In his conversations on the social
psychology of belonging,Geoffrey Cohen names that an
experience of unbelonging canalso be powerful. Brief periods
of quote, feeling out of place,challenge, limited world views
and cultural norms become apractice of humility and
vulnerability and openpossibilities for unexpected
(14:15):
hospitality. Geoffrey Cohennotes that travel is one
activity where humans mostnaturally experience an
unmooring of what it means tobelong.
Okay, so my next question is abit of a risk, and we'll just
see if it goes anywhere or not.
But So you mentioned that you'vebeen to Europe, and I know it's
(14:35):
part of your educationalprogram, but I also saw that you
were traveling alone, and maybewe can also name that as we move
later into the conversationabout refugees, we we
acknowledge like the privilegeof what it is to be able to move
in the world. But there is asense when you travel of not
belonging, and in some sensethat that experience is a very
(14:57):
rich experience. Because itreally unmoors your sense of
what normal is, and then theacts of hospitality that are
received feel very radical inthose moments. I mean, that's
been my experience. I would loveto hear some of your
reflections, as you said abouttraveling in Europe,
Erin Guinup (15:17):
I think for me, I mean, I've traveled alone a
couple of times now, and eachtime I've started these trips
with so much anxiety. And whaton earth am I thinking that I
can do this? I and that's how itwas true on this recent trip to
(15:37):
Italy where I What was Ithinking that I could travel
alone for three weeks. And whoam I to think that that I can
survive this long, and I justhad a lot of question marks. But
because you're alone, I think acouple of things happen. One, I
started listening to myselfdifferently when, which was, I
(16:00):
think, really important. I thinkyou have to balance that,
because I think you can listento yourself too much and get
into a circle, but I think I'vebeen so busy of late that it was
a gift to have this time to haveconversation with myself. And
then I think because you'realone, you're more open, or at
least, I felt more open. So whensomeone did make a bid for my
(16:23):
attention, they.. with a smile.
I was so eager to respond withthat bid for attention. And
beautiful relationships started,whether it's sitting alone at a
table and people invite me toeat dinner with them, or the man
who just saw me sitting alone inmass, and he's like, Oh, here's
the music. Do you want to sing?
(16:45):
Do you sing? And yeah, I sing.
He had no idea that I was asinger, but it was such a gift
to be invited. And I think thatthat's because there's an
openness when you are travelingalone. And absolutely it's such
a privilege. It's a privilege Ididn't know that I could have
for much of my life. I didn'tfeel like I felt like it was too
expensive or too... it was forother people. But I'm so
(17:08):
grateful to have gotten to apoint where I feel like I can do
that as well.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (17:14):
I think I would reflect back to you that
when I last went to Azerbaijan,I had read Rick Steves article
on travel as a political act,and I was playing with this idea
about, like, what is travel as apeacebuilding act, especially
knowing how much carbon that Iwould burn to get to Azerbaijan,
and really wrestling with theethical question of like, is, is
(17:37):
it worth it for me to go there?
And I decided to be worth itthat I would establish this pen
pal relationship with a personin Azerbaijan, and got there,
and then he told me that he wasgoing to pick me up at 5am the
next morning, and it felt like areally risky scenario. And yet,
this person, this family, pickedme up at 5am the next morning
and took me all over the caucusmountains in the most think one
(17:58):
of the most beautiful days I'veever had, and the richness of
the hospitality there very muchunmoored me, at least it's not
what I expect on a day to daybasis. In my current life, I
Erin Guinup (18:13):
I had the same experience. I'm thinking, Why
are you being so kind to me? Andyet there was such an openness
that that fed my soul in adeeply beautiful way to to feel
like you're at home in a placethat is not your home is an
(18:35):
incredible gift, and I came backwanting to create those spaces
In my own life, more at a deeperlevel
Unknown (19:14):
[music break],
Orlando Morales (19:55):
The voice is that instrument that you know
most people have access to,right? You don't, you don't have
to take out a loan to get one.
You don't have to, like, youknow, find some way to get this
instrument and make the music,right? And so there's, there's
only a handful of opportunitieslike that that we have in the
Western tradition, right? And sothere's that access point. On a
(20:17):
more kind of metaphorical orphilosophical note, its like
when we start to put voicestogether, there's something that
communicates to me about aboutthe building of community, or
the building of relationships,or the power of the human spirit
(20:39):
to connect with other people.
There is something that'ssubtextual there, I think no
matter what you're singing, sowe start to put the voices
together, and there's somethingthat communicates to us about
(20:59):
this primordial human need, orour predilection to connect with
others that, for me, is at theheart of choral ensembles and
why we get together and we writethese beautiful pieces of music
For soprano, alto, tenor, bass,or, in non Western traditions,
(21:23):
just the act of harmony orsinging together. So there's
something that I feel like isalmost grammatical about it,
like in the Chomskian sense,like there's something that, you
know, we all have adjectives andverbs, you know, across
languages, and then we all havesome kind of singing together
(21:44):
situation. And so there'ssomething inherent in the act,
and in that heritage and that,that human tradition that we
have that's important but needsto be cultivated.
Why the act of choral singing isimportant. I think it's a it
connects us to this, this veryprimordial spirit. It reminds us
(22:08):
of our humanity, and that partof the of our humanity that is
social, that needs other people,and that helps other people.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (22:19):
Because of Orlando's experience in
theater, our conversation turnedto a broader dialog about the
arts and how permeableboundaries of the arts are
workshops of belonging, craftingsenses of selves into multi
faceted, interconnected selvesthrough listening, performing
(22:39):
and watching.
Orlando Morales (22:41):
There's something about that experience
not being able to be captured injust one mode of art making. So
it's like, yeah, we got, we dohave drama. Drama. Drama is
going along. But then we get toa point where it's like, oh, the
human here on on stage, thecharacter that's trying to be
captured is bigger than justdrama, so we have to break into
(23:04):
a different art form. And eventhat just feels like a very
western lens to put on it. It'slike, if we look in other
cultures, there's really noline, you know, between the
singing, the drama and thesinging and the dance. It's just
all one thing. So it's kind ofreally interesting how, how, you
know, in my, from my westernpoint of view, there's these
(23:26):
partitions, there's like, that'sballet, this is opera, this, but
those don't exist elsewhere. Buteven with that lens, there is a
power, I think, in acknowledgingthat humans are multifaceted.
And so, you know, have this modeof storytelling that needs all
the tools that we have, youknow, available us to capture
(23:48):
this human experience.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (23:51):
Research by Madeline Brewer has taught me
that belonging is a delicatebalance between an assimilated
self and an individuated self.
We need the arts to feel lessalone, to feel the security and
affirmations of aninterconnected whole, and we
need the arts to open stages andwindows where we might perform
(24:14):
our individuated stories and payattention to the stories of
others. The Arts allow us toplay with the size of the self,
making ourselves big on thestage and then smaller so we
open new windows of perspective.
(24:35):
This is the artistic work ofbelonging.
Orlando Morales (24:46):
The art there, to me, is like inherently
inviting and does a kind ofreflection back on people that
already make you feel a part ofsomething. And like less alone.
I think, you know, it makes mefeel less alone in my
experience, feeling multifacetedand and me having a singer
(25:08):
inside me or not, or, you know,a singing version of myself. And
then just when we kind of take astep back and include the
audience in a theater, theaterexperience, I'm borrowing from
things I've read, but thingsthat have really resonated with
me, that you know, it is uniqueto ask people to kind of sit
(25:33):
there for, let's say, 90minutes, because I love a 90
minute show, at least 90minutes, sometimes three hours,
right? We're gonna ask you tosit there and, like, watch
somebody else's story, right?
And to pay attention. That's theinvitation, and that's ask. So
there's something remarkable andmiraculous, one, in being...
(25:53):
people being like, oh yes, okay,I will sit there and I will
watch somebody else's story,right? Not my own, but somebody
else's, and I will do it for 90minutes, you know, politely, you
know, you know. And that doesn'talways happen that way, but
that's that's the premise,right? And so we're sitting
(26:16):
there for 90 minutes to threehours, and we're paying
attention to somebody else'sstory. And I think it's Paul
Woodruff, the academic, whosays, like that's that's the
basis of ethics, payingattention to somebody else's
story, and some people frame itas empathy. I don't know if we
(26:37):
always are successful in goingthat far. I definitely think
that there's an opportunity tofoster empathy and cultivate
empathy. But for me, it's noteven if you don't get that far
right, just the act, thepractice of sitting - Okay, I'm
gonna come here, I'm gonna sitdown, I'm gonna pay attention to
something else, and we don'teven have, like, if we could do
(27:02):
that, you know, maybe watching amovie at home. But I think it's
really common for us to actuallyhave, like, our other screen,
and we're scrolling while that'shappening, so it's not even
really happening there. Theateris special, I think, in this
cultural moment, in that it'sone of the few spaces where we
(27:25):
really have to, like, okay, herewe are, sit down. Maybe church
is another one. But like, we'recoming in, sitting down, paying
attention to something elsethat's really important, and
we're doing it together. Sothere's something important to
me and necessary in terms of oursociety. Of like we need these
opportunities to practice beingthe human beings that we want to
(27:50):
be. And I want to live in asociety where human beings make
space to listen to other peopleand agree to do that as a group
of people. I think that's reallyimportant
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (28:04):
In the necessity of theater. Paul
Woodruff writes about the powerof collective attention,
framing, mimesis and critical,reflective imagination. He
writes about the watching thattakes place within theater.
Quote, there is an art towatching and being watched, and
(28:24):
that is one of the few artswhich all human living depends.
If we are unwatched, we diminishand we cannot be entirely as we
wish to be. If we never stop towatch, we will know only how it
feels to be us. Never how itmight feel to be another. Watch
(28:45):
too much or in the wrong way. Webecome frightened. Watching too
much. We lose the capacity foraction in our own lives.
Watching well together and beingwatched well with limits on both
sides, we grow and growtogether.
Our artistic spaces may be siteswhere we work our mattering and
(29:11):
in turn, where we work out whatit means to belong. The arts
teach us that nuance matters,and in our subtle gestures of
hospitality, we might act ourway into more generous
belonging.
In part two of this podcast, wewill dive deep into the Tacoma
(29:32):
refugee choir, looking at itsmission statement, collaborative
spaces of music, empoweringsong, re-territorializing of
space, and finally, theimportance of language, choices,
agency and story. This is themusic and peace building podcast
hosted by Kevin Shorner Johnsonat Elizabethtown College. We
(29:54):
host a master of music educationwith an emphasis in
peacebuilding. Think. Deeply, wereclaim space for connection and
care. Join us at musicpeacebuilding.com.
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