February 18, 2025 • 40 mins
Achieving a polished, professional sound in mastering requires a deep understanding of digital distortion and saturation—but how do you use them effectively without compromising clarity?
In this episode of Inside The Mix, I’m joined by mastering engineer Eric Mitchell to explore the fine balance between intentional and unintentional distortion, the role of saturation in mastering, and essential techniques to refine your sound.
Key Topics Covered:
• The difference between intentional vs. unintentional distortion in mastering
• How saturation enhances warmth and depth in a mix
• Essential techniques for managing loudness and dynamics
• Common pitfalls to avoid when using digital distortion
• The best tools for mastering and distortion
• Transitioning from analog to digital mastering—what you need to know
• Why trusting your ears is crucial in mastering and saturation
Whether you're a seasoned producer or just getting started, this episode will help you unlock the power of mastering while avoiding common mistakes.
Links mentioned in this episode:
- Follow Eric at Eric Mitchell Audio
- Kaptive Audio
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Thanks for listening!!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric Mitchell (00:00):
And so I want to put this out there because it's
what I always say to them, and Ithink that this is important
for other people to consider too.
It's like and I don't mean thisas an insult, I just think it's
the truth Someone who says thatthey can't do with plugins,
what they can do with analog, isnot speaking to the
capabilities of the tools.
(00:21):
They're speaking to their owncapabilities.
You're listening to the Insidethe Mix podcast with your host,
mark.
Marc Matthews (00:28):
Matthews, welcome to Inside the Mix, your go-to
podcast for music creation andproduction.
Whether you're crafting yourfirst track or refining your
mixing skills, join me each weekfor expert interviews,
practical tutorials and insightsto help you level up your music
and smash it in the musicindustry.
Let's dive in.
(00:48):
Hey folks, welcome back orwelcome to the Inside the Mix
podcast.
Before we dive into thisepisode, I want to know if
you've got a question, becauseI'd love to hear from you on the
podcast.
Click the speak pipe link inthe episode description to
submit your question, share yoursocial media handles or website
or whatever it is you'reworking on at the moment and get
(01:10):
featured in an episode.
Plus one lucky question orlistener submission will win a
coffee voucher on me each month,and I say you'll get to feature
on the podcast.
If you're unsure of the format,check out episode 175 and
you'll get an idea.
So that aside, today I amthrilled to welcome back my
guest, eric Mitchell of EricMitchell Audio.
(01:32):
He's returning for his secondstint on the Inside the Mix
podcast and the episode lastyear so I say last year, so that
was in 2024, was episode 143.
The Art of DIY Mastering Tipsand Strategies to Master your
Own Music was in 2024.
It was episode 143.
The art of diy mastering tipsand strategies to master your
own music was actually the mostpopular episode of 2024, so much
so that we got eric back ontoday.
(01:53):
So if you haven't heard up onebefore, do go check it out.
Obviously, listen to this onefirst, then head back and listen
to that episode.
But that's enough of myrambling.
Eric, how are you?
And thanks for joining me todaygreat man.
Eric Mitchell (02:04):
How are you?
It's good to be back yeah, I'mgood.
Marc Matthews (02:07):
I'm good, mate.
I'm getting in the swinger thing, a lot of interviews at the
start of 2025, so just greasingthe interview wheels again, mate
there you go, yeah yeah, Ithink this is the third or
fourth one of the year, which is, which is great, enjoying it,
getting back in the swing of it,mate, um, but yeah, so it's a
pleasure to have you back on.
So, for those of you who mightnot know, uh, or have not
(02:28):
listened to episode 143, shameon you.
Uh.
Eric is a true audio industrymulti-hyphenate songwriter,
producer, mixer, mastering,engineer, live sound expert and
educator as well.
He works predominantly withelectronic artists and labels,
and fans of the band glass jawmay well know his work on the
live sort of scene.
He's been responsible for theirlive sound since 2018 and also
(02:51):
remastered their 20thanniversary vinyl box set.
So today we are going to bediving deep into the often
misunderstood topic of masteringdigital distortion.
Now, we did allude to this inepisode 143 and I said we were
going to come back to it, andthat's what we're doing today.
So you mentioned in thatepisode about using distortion
(03:12):
in mastering and it reallypiqued my interest.
So how to use it creatively andalso I think it's important to
know when to avoid it.
So I think it'd be good tostart, maybe, if you could start
by explaining digitaldistortion to our listeners and
what they are, what to look outfor and why it's such a nuanced
topic in mastering well.
Eric Mitchell (03:32):
So, just based on my past experience with clients
, I think when you, when you saylike digital distortion,
there's probably like two, twolike different applications of
that terminology.
One which I would consider islike intentional distortion or
like saturation things, whereyou're trying to bolster the
(03:56):
sonics on purpose.
And then there's like digitaldistortion in like the
artifacting sense, where thereare like distortions happening
as a result of processing thatmay not be intentional, and so I
think it's like important to totalk about both sides there.
Um, and so obviously likeintentional distortion, um, you
(04:23):
know there's saturators whichdistortion?
For those people who don't know, it's like when you hear a
guitar amp and the guitar is allgritty and dirty.
That is a saturation.
If you didn't have that onthere, the guitar is essentially
going to be clean.
So it's adding harmonics, evenin odd harmonics, to the
original signal.
(04:43):
Well, even and or odd,depending on which saturator
you're using, I guess.
But and so that that's like theon the face, like application,
I think.
But in my mind, saturation iskind of almost happening
everywhere.
In in an example that I'll giveyou is like compression.
(05:05):
I almost think of compressionmore as like distortion and
color than actual compression,because, like all compressors
compress right and so, like,what is the main differences
between them?
Which is usually like theirdistortions or like the box tone
that they're gonna add to yoursignal.
(05:26):
So most of the time when I'mpicking compressors, I'm not
picking for the compressoritself, I'm picking for the, the
color of the distortion thatit's going to add to my signal
in.
You know so, certaincompressors for drums, certain
for guitar vocals, vice versa,and where the saturation that is
going to add it will complementthe signal.
(05:49):
And on the opposite end, likemanaging, you know, unintended
distortions, especially withwithin electronic music or any
genre where, like super loudoutput is the desired end result
, it's almost impossible to getsuch high outputs without
introducing distortions from,you know, clipping and limiting
(06:12):
and things like that.
And so I found that usingmultiple stages of those things
doing little bits rather thanlike heavy-handed processing um,
allows you to manage the, thestages more fine-tuned and and
manage where the distortion iscoming in or, you know,
(06:35):
minimizing it to a degree thatit's not adding anything
negative to the end result.
Sorry, that was a long ramble.
No, that's fine, I was justtaking it in.
Marc Matthews (06:43):
So what we have there is we've got two you
mentioned there sort ofintentional and unintentional
distortion, so the intentionalbeing saturation, rather than
even and odd harmonics Put myteeth back in and then we've got
digital distortion, so that'ssort of like the non-intentional
, almost sort of likedestructive sort of distortion,
so it uh sort of uh distortion.
(07:03):
So it's interesting there whatyou mentioned about distortion
in series, because that's oftenthe approach that I take with
regards to compression.
So it kind of marries in mythought process, that's and you
you see that a lot as wellrather than just being
heavy-handed with one compressor, you do it in series, um, so
can you elaborate a bit abouthow you use that creatively and
mastering there?
Because you you touched on itthere with regards to we're
aiming for lap I say aiming for,I don't want to use the term
(07:25):
aiming for, but obviously withinelectronic music it's got to be
a certain loudness right for itto be competitive, especially
when it's played out in a clubenvironment or on a sound system
.
So how are you sort of usingdigital distortion in mastering
to add character and sort of,let's say, emotion to a track?
Eric Mitchell (07:43):
well, lots of different ways.
So like I can't remember if wewent over this in the last
episode, but so I don't want tobe too repetitive, but I
primarily stem master yes, Iremember that, yep yep, maybe
like one out of 100 masters is astereo master, so it's almost
all stems and so, um, I'mpersonally my workflow allows me
(08:04):
again more control over where Iwant to apply saturation and
distortion and mastering becauseof that, so I can use some
saturation on the drum stemthat's separate of the bass stem
or the synths and I can reallycontrol the tones synths and I
(08:28):
can really control the tones andso, um, generally I'm almost
never adding distortion andstuff to to low end and, like
the sub range, um, I try to keepthe, the bottom of the mix, the
master like, as clean aspossible.
Um, just because subs andeverything needs, like that,
room to breathe and so I don'twant to compress and saturate
and squish.
you know that that range so muchbut generally speaking, a lot
(08:53):
of times I'll look to distortionas almost like a form of eq, so
like, let's say, there's like a, a synth stem that is a little
dull, it's like sure, I canthrow an eq on there and, like
you know, crank a high shelf orfind the presence range.
But sometimes using distortionand tailoring the distortion
(09:14):
with like a high pass or bandpass and focusing it on just a
certain range, you can bringthat presence or the life into
the signal without EQ, just bythe distortion.
Marc Matthews (09:27):
Yeah, yeah, no, that makes perfect sense and
it's kind of like another.
That's the great thing aboutmusic, in a way, isn't it?
You can do more than one, youcan achieve a similar result
with more than one sort oftechnique or tool, and that's
exactly what you're doing there.
It reminds me of a conversationI had with Shane Slack and he
(09:49):
was talking about depth and howhe used bit depth on his drums
on a beat, rather than justgoing for the obvious sort of
like compression or saturation,like you say.
He was using bit depth to dothat.
So you mentioned saturationthere.
At any point.
Are you actually sort of usingdigital distortion like
overloading?
Eric Mitchell (10:06):
I said overloading, so yeah, yeah, go
ahead, yeah yeah, so like, uh,when you get to the, the final
stage of the master and you'regetting like your final level
output, for me, um, it'stypically like the master
processing and then I'll hit aclipper and two limiters and so
in the cl clearly we're likepushing it over and clipping it,
and so there are distortionsthat occur there and with
(10:33):
electronic music especially, orany loud music, I guess where
I've come to arrive is so Iactually over-engineer the
transients into the master, andthe reason for that is because
when I get to the end I'm goingto clip and limit.
I still want it to be punchy.
But clearly the goal here isthat we're clipping transients
(10:55):
right Because we're trying toclip so that the limiter is not
working too hard.
So every time we're clippingoff those transients we're going
to get distortion.
Clipping off those transientswe're going to get distortion,
but when done in the right way,that clipping distortion can
actually add impact to thetransients in the drum.
So it's like a lot of peopleyou'll say like, oh my god, like
(11:16):
clippers they're killingtransients.
If you over engineer thetransients and you're clipping
them the right way, theyactually bring some punch
because of the distortion thatoccurs every time the clipper is
clipping the transient.
Marc Matthews (11:30):
Yeah, just to interject there.
When you say over-engineer thetransient, what is it you're
doing there, when you'reover-engineering the transient
itself?
Eric Mitchell (11:37):
Well.
So I like to think of mixingand mastering like I listen to
two overall aspects.
There's the balance of the mix,of course, like the total sonic
balance, but then I also listento the transient balance, and
so what I mean there isoftentimes you'll get a mix in
where the snare is ripping uphere, but then the kick is only
(12:00):
cutting through here, so thetransient mix is not balanced.
All the drums should be punchingthrough and so when I say over
engineer, um, if let's say atthe end of the track, you know
this is your, the main part ofyour mix, and these are your
transients, that's where youwant them to sit.
Before I get to mastering, I'mengineering, like the transients
(12:21):
, super exaggerated right, likeway, way poking out of the mix
so that then when I clip the mixdown it's back more where the
relationship I wanted.
But then I have the the abilityto control how much of that
transient I'm clipping down intothe mix you know what I mean?
yeah, I get you and then theother part of that is um is?
(12:41):
I particularly enjoy using SIRstandard clip which has a
saturation option where it willapply saturation only to the
signal when it's being clipped.
So if you're only clipping yourtransients and then you just
give the tiniest little bump ofthat distortion onto the clipped
(13:04):
signal, it helps round thecorners on the clipping, so it's
not so sharp but you still getthe nice punch.
It just sounds like unclippedtransients even though you're
clipping.
You know what I mean.
Marc Matthews (13:17):
Yeah, yeah, that's the same clipper that I
use.
It's a very good clipper.
Eric Mitchell (13:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc Matthews (13:21):
It's a fantastic piece of kit, and it's super
affordable as well.
If I remember right, I think Ipaid about 20 or 30 quid for it,
whatever the equivalent is indollars.
Still, it's very good, andyou're only sorry, going back to
sort of like the conversationthat we had just now about doing
it in series One clipper.
Or are you finding that you'reusing multiple clippers in
(13:43):
series again?
Or are you finding that you'reusing multiple clippers in
series again, or are you justdoing the heavy lifting with one
?
Eric Mitchell (13:48):
It kind of depends on the track and how
extreme of an output they'reasking for.
You get the standard loudness,but there are this handful of
clients that it's like holy moly, you're trying to blow the
speakers up with this output.
So it really depends on that.
But I would say like on averageuh, one clipper, two limiters
(14:10):
one clipper, two limiters.
Marc Matthews (14:12):
I love that because that's exactly what I do
, so I love, I love that you'resaying that.
Um, that's, that's great man.
I was.
I was thinking then when youwere talking.
Obviously he's paying attention, but it also reminded me of
another podcast I was listeningto when they were going through
and they had audio examples ofclippers, limiters, compression,
trying to achieve a similarthing, and I think now in
(14:32):
preparation, it would have beenquite cool to do something
similar.
Maybe that's another one forfurther down the line again, get
some audio examples.
I did something similar with IanStewart last year when we went
through mid-side processing andit worked out really well.
So yeah, man, it'd be great ifwe maybe we'll get some, some
audio examples so the listenerscan can delve into that yeah, we
(14:52):
can do that yeah, yeah, I thinkthat'd be really cool to do,
just so they can hear thedifference, because I I found it
really useful when I waslistening to that podcast and I
wish I could give it a shout out, but I cannot remember, I think
it, think it was Sonic Scoop.
I could be wrong, I think it wasSonic Scoop Right on.
But going back to what you saidabout you using STEM, and I
remember the conversation we hadnow about STEM mastering, where
(15:13):
often they'll send you theprojects and you've got, if I
can remember rightly, you'vepretty much got every DAW set up
ready to go in a hot site notusing distortion on the on the
low frequencies.
If someone was to send you astem not stem mix a stereo mix
(15:37):
is it could you still dosomething similar?
Is it a similar process?
Eric Mitchell (15:40):
because obviously there you've got less
flexibility in terms of how youcan treat each frequency range
yeah, definitely lessflexibility in a stereo sense,
but even there, like you know,the the tools that we have at
our disposal now for adding andmanaging distortion are not most
of them are not just widebandlike you can tailor you know
(16:04):
what part of the frequency youwant it to be working on, like
hd2, for example, plug-inalliance I don't know if you
ever use that one I don't thinkI've got a lot of plugins that
plug in alliance plugins, but Idon't think I've ever used that
one I might.
Yes, the hd2 black box.
Marc Matthews (16:18):
It's a saturator oh, of course, yeah, I have.
Eric Mitchell (16:21):
Yeah, yep, yep yep, but that one, like you can
choose to do like a high passand only saturate, you know,
like the upper and or a bandpass and just focus it.
So, like a lot of times, I'mnot doing just like wide band,
I'm very specifically focusingwhere the distortion is being
applied yeah, that makes perfectsense.
Marc Matthews (16:41):
Thinking back to my question now, I probably
could have answered that myselfthe way you described it there.
Yeah, we've got more discretecontrol now, haven't we over the
individual bands.
Now we process them.
So it makes it makes perfectsense.
So this kind of segues onnicely to my next question, and
this is going down the route ofsort of like common mistakes
producers, engineers, masteringengineers might make when using
(17:03):
distortion in their mastering.
Can you tell our audience howthey can possibly avoid those
pitfalls?
Eric Mitchell (17:09):
Sure, I feel like saturation and distortion to me
is kind of like salt in food,right, like, most food needs a
little salt to wake up theflavor, but you can very quickly
and very easily over salt yourfood, right, and so like.
The thing with distortion isit's kind of almost like
(17:32):
blurring an image, right, soit's like if you have this
signal that's very crisp andpristine, the more distortion
you add to it, the more smearedand blurry that gets.
Right, because it's adding allthe harmonics.
It's filling in all the spacebetween the the original lines
that were so clean, and so wetalked about this last time too.
(17:53):
Like the the original linesthat were so clean, and so we
talked about this last time too.
Like the the in 2025, thisabundance of like bad audio
advice on the internet, and youknow how many instagram videos
you'll be fed where somebody'slike you want huge subs, throw
on the distortion and saturateyour whole mix and crank the
load like, like.
There's so much bad advice andso like.
(18:14):
It's really just, I think, goagain.
Going back to what we talked toin the last one, too, is just
like using your ears, right,because it's like you got to
listen to what you're doing andnot just be like doing these
things because you know, someonea video told you, or, or you
think that's what you should bedoing.
Obviously you got to experiment, to learn, to learn this stuff.
(18:35):
But the pitfall here, I think,is like OK, I've distorted my
subs, now I'm distorting mysynths, let's distort my drums
now to push them up intoeverything else, and at the end
you've just got this big ball ofdistortion.
Marc Matthews (18:49):
Yeah, yeah.
Eric Mitchell (18:51):
You can't really.
You know you don't want to gooverboard with it, um, but a
little bit goes a long way.
I feel like, uh, it's anadditive thing, right?
So like if you added a littlebit here, a little bit there, by
the time you get to the end,all those small things have
added up to somethingsignificant and meaningful yeah,
wise words, my friend.
Marc Matthews (19:11):
I remember having that conversation about the, uh
the whole like uh social mediaand uh yeah, various try this,
this and this.
And it reminds me of how I was,um, helping somebody out with
some mixing and they, uh, theycame in with a project and they
had the uh, a plug-in chain.
I was like, what have you gotgoing on here?
(19:33):
And he was just kind of like,oh, this is what my friend told
me to do because it worked forhim.
And I was just like, yeah,that's good man, but I don't
know if it's going to work inthis instance.
So you've got to like I likewhat you said there about using
the salt and food analogy andhow you've got to sort of like
it's counterintuitive but pepperit, it in here and there and
(19:55):
where it's needed, and I thinkit's.
It's quite easy.
I remember when I first startedout, when I was producing and I
would be working on somethingand thinking in in a silo, in
like maybe I'm working on drumsand bass and whatnot, and
thinking I'll add a bit thereand then do another bit and add
a bit.
But when you get to the end,that's when you realize you've
got too much.
So it's kind of like you needto think of the bigger picture
if you're doing it individually,you're gonna, you can quite
easily.
So you get that big ball ofdistortion.
(20:16):
And it's kind of the same, Ifind, with time-based processing
as well like reverbs.
When people start stickingreverbs on every channel, then
you get this big mono.
It's almost like big mono, justa big reverb, exactly because
you've just overdone it and Ithink it's so easy to do and it
just I think that just I meanthis is probably another episode
in itself, but I think it'sjust overthinking it and
(20:36):
thinking you've just got tothrow the kitchen sink at
everything.
You've got all these tools withthese plugins and these
techniques, but you don't haveto use them in every track,
correct?
Eric Mitchell (20:44):
that's key yeah, and another thing you were just
you just brought up there too islike, especially with like the
reverb and distortion stuff likethis, like for someone in a
non-mastering context who's justlike making the track or
perhaps even mixing, some ofthat stuff is way less apparent
before it's mastered, right,because it's it's.
(21:05):
You know the backgroundinformation and as soon as you
make the track you know minusfour luffs or whatever some
stupid thing.
All that stuff that was in theback is now just as loud in the
front.
So you've got cranked reverbtails, crank distortion.
All this other stuff comesforward that you may not have
noticed yeah, yeah.
Marc Matthews (21:24):
Have you got any tips on, like, for those who are
noticing that and gettingfeedback from mastering
engineers or whatever it isthey're using to to get that
final master, what would youadvise them do to nip that in
the bud before it gets to themastering stage?
Eric Mitchell (21:41):
so probably two things, like for myself when I'm
producing.
If for any of that kind of stufflike reverb is the is a
wonderful example like that, Iknow in the end I it's more
atmospheric and vibe and notsupposed to be in the forefront,
I'll put it where I think itshould be and I'm like, okay,
that's the level where I want itto be at the end and then I'll
(22:02):
just bring it back a couple dbbecause I know that it's gonna
get lifted in mastering.
Um, the second thing you can doand this is like dangerous
advice because there's so manymastering engineers that are
like don't do that.
But like you can put a limiteron your master bus and like test
, yeah, yeah, yeah, mastering,but like don't.
(22:24):
I wouldn't say, throw that onthere and work into it, just use
it as like a okay, I'm going toturn this on and what does my
mix sound like when I limit it?
Obviously, there's going to beway more going on when your
track gets mastered than just alimiter being thrown on, but at
least it gives you a quicklittle window into like what
happens to my mix once thingsget kind of squashed yeah.
Marc Matthews (22:44):
So the first one there is something I do as well
as I like with reverb or anddelay or to get it to the point
where I can hear it, and thenI'll just back it off, knowing
that it's going to be where itneeds to be further down the
line.
And what you mentioned thereabout sticking the limiter on
the end is great.
I think that's really goodadvice.
To be fair, I mean, it's notgoing to replicate or it's not
going to.
Yeah, it's not going toreplicate what it's going to
(23:05):
sound like when it's finallymastered, but it out on what
maybe needs to come down incertain, certain aspects.
And I know some DAWs now.
For example, logic has abuilt-in mastering assistance.
You use something along thoselines.
But yeah, like say, it'll giveyou a good idea that reverb
tails are sticking out too much,or maybe you need to dial the
feedback on a delay or somethingyeah, I think it's.
(23:26):
I think it does work.
So we touch in a nice littlesegue.
This moves on to the next part.
So specific tools or pluginsyou'd recommend for working with
digital distortion.
You've already mentioned blackbox and where you and you've
mentioned the standard clip aswell.
Are there any others?
Eric Mitchell (23:43):
yeah, a really incredible, uh, saturation tool
by tone projects called kelvin.
You familiar with that one no,no, I've got, so I've got a few
time projects, uh, plugins yeah,they have that unisom
compressor, which is awesome aswell yeah, yeah but yeah, um
(24:04):
kelvin and then um, acousticaaudio has a master bus processor
called snow which is emulating,I believe, the uh neve portico
to master bus processor.
But it has the uh, the twosaturation distortion flavors in
(24:28):
there the silk, like the redand the blue, um, which on the
hardware is something thatsounds magical and they capture
that really well.
So I use that a lot for, like,top end saturation and
distortion.
Dark glass, the bass plug-innice.
Marc Matthews (24:48):
I haven't heard of them.
The last two, I haven't heardof that's by neural dsp oh no, I
like the neural dsp stuff.
I've got a, um, oh, which onehave I got?
I think it's the portnoy.
Is it the portnoy?
I can't remember.
It's sidetracking now.
It's making me think now, what,what guitar emulators I've got?
Um, but the neural dsp stuff'sreally good it's very good.
Eric Mitchell (25:08):
Yeah, um, they made.
They made the uh Darkglass basspedal in a little plugin.
Marc Matthews (25:14):
Oh, wow.
Eric Mitchell (25:15):
Which has a very specific distortion sound that I
use a lot on effects, sends andthings like that.
Marc Matthews (25:21):
Yeah.
Eric Mitchell (25:22):
And their guitar amps.
Actually I've used their guitaramps creatively a lot on synths
and other things besides guitarVocals, stuff like that.
Marc Matthews (25:32):
That's made me think that I've never actually
thought about doing that.
I've only ever used it onguitar.
Um, I've never thought of usingit on a synth.
I'm gonna do that on my nexttrack, uh, and give it a go.
Yeah, I've never thought ofusing it because some of the
sounds and the just the patchesin there are wild man yep, um,
and they're really really good.
Eric Mitchell (25:48):
I'm gonna give that and on brand with this
episode, those amps.
They're just distortion boxes.
You know what I mean.
So yeah, really, you can reallyget some crazy stuff out of
your sense with some of thecolors in there yeah, do you
find that you?
Marc Matthews (26:02):
do you ever like limit yourself to how many you
use in a project, or is itliterally just down to if I feel
it's needed, then I'll?
I'll stick, I'll use it yeah,no, no limits here.
Eric Mitchell (26:14):
Like I I can't remember if we went over this,
but I I run a hackintosh like Ipurposely built like this.
It's like a 10 core, all coresoverclocked to like 5.2
gigahertz so I can run just like, yeah, launch the, you know,
launch everything in.
I'll even still hit, hitceilings with this, like I'm
(26:34):
using stems and you know, youget a couple acoustica plugins
and some soothes and spiffsgoing and it caps out pretty
quick.
But, um, no, I don't put alimit, it's more just like.
But that being said, I will sayI also don't struggle with like
I see this come up a lot wherepeople are like how do you know
when it's done?
Like I don't struggle with thateither, because I can just hear
(26:54):
okay, it's balanced.
Now, like I'm not hearing anymore problems.
Marc Matthews (26:58):
Um, so I just go until I don't hear any issues, I
guess that's really interestingbecause that is like a common
uh pain point that I that I getmentioned to me by like on
instagram or whatnot bylisteners of the podcast yeah
sort of like you've been doingit for a while now.
At what point did you get whereyou were thinking to yourself.
You know what.
(27:18):
I trust my instincts.
Now it's done.
It's done, did it?
How long did it take to you toget to that, or did you do?
Was that like straight away?
Eric Mitchell (27:26):
definitely not straight away like for the first
.
Uh, I don't know, I'm just, I'mtrying to remember and guess
here like three to five years ofdoing this.
I was still, you know, taking itout and doing the car test and
and stuff like that andquestioning you know my own
judgment and feelings.
But like, even before I starteddoing this, uh, as a career, I
(27:50):
was doing it for myself in myband.
So I I even had time beforethat too.
But it's just like withanything right, like you, you do
it long enough and you, you,you gain this like comfort and
familiarity.
That's kind of hard to to relayto anybody who doesn't have it,
because the only way you canget it is by putting the time in
.
So it's like I think that's whyit's such a pain point is
(28:13):
because, like, if somebody whodoesn't have that experience yet
says to me, how do you knowwhen the song is done?
And I say I just know they'relike what the hell?
That's not helping me, you knowwhat I mean.
It's like it's it's hard torelay how you know, because it's
your experience that'sinforming it.
Marc Matthews (28:30):
You know what I mean yeah, yeah, when you know,
you know sort of thing, yeah so,um yeah, I don't really.
Eric Mitchell (28:35):
I don't really give myself any boxes or
guidelines.
I don't even use templates,like I don't like to approach a
song with like a pre-builtanything, because it's a new
song that's never existed beforeand I want to treat it like
uniquely and give it its ownattention.
Marc Matthews (28:49):
You know what I mean yeah, nice, I remember the
conversation now.
Then you get into mastering outnecessity.
Yeah, I think it was, wasn't itwhen you were working on your
own tracks and then you sent itto?
Did you send it to an engineerwe won't name names and then it
didn't quite come back the wayyou wanted and then you moved
into doing it yourself, if Iremember rightly correct?
yep, good memory, yeah, yeah youknow what I mean the amount of
(29:11):
interviews and people I speak to.
I'm very surprised.
I surprise myself sometimeswith how I remember these things
.
Eric Mitchell (29:16):
I was going to say, with the amount of
interviews you're doing, that'simpressive man.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc Matthews (29:21):
It's when I say oh, did we chat about this?
Eric Mitchell (29:23):
And then I realize oh no, that was totally
someone different, Then it getsreally awkward and I have to
just move on to something else.
Really quickly.
Marc Matthews (29:32):
Yeah, um, I did have one other question and I
can't remember if I asked youthis last time are you working?
Are you in the box, solely inthe box?
Did you have any outboard gear?
Eric Mitchell (29:40):
I'm in the box now.
I worked for a very long time,uh, with outboard, like you know
, 50, 60 grand worth of like thenicest analog I could get, like
niff, vertigo, master, like allthe the top shelf stuff and uh,
the issue there was, likeanalog recall is a massive pain
(30:04):
in the ass and especially forsomeone like myself you know if
I'm doing you know, three tofour masters a day.
Someone like myself, you knowif I'm doing you know three to
four masters a day and these,these are a lot of like
independent edm artists whooftentimes, again, we're you
know we're talking about howthey don't have the experience
to know how the mix is going totranslate to mastering.
That can also result in a lotof times like I'm just trying to
(30:28):
help realize the artist'svision and so I'm not trying to
change like the mix or thebalance.
You know what I mean.
I'm just trying to help realizethe artist's vision and so I'm
not trying to change like themix or the balance.
You know what I mean.
I'm just trying to master it.
But let's say it comes back andnow like the reverb like we're
talking about is cranked, sothey're like oh, I didn't know
the reverb was going to get soloud.
Can you turn that down?
That's the kind of stuff thatcomes up a lot with these
independent artists that may nothave as so.
That equals revisions, right,and so, like I'm doing three or
(30:51):
four a day and they're they'recoming back with, can you turn
the reverb down?
I've already gone and masteredlike three other tracks.
Now I gotta go recall the deskto turn a reverb down like yeah,
yeah, and so it was adding alot of time in the day.
So the way that I cameoriginally, that originally
approached that was like okay,analog revisions I have to
(31:12):
charge for.
Like in the box revisions arefree.
Analog revisions have a smallfee attached and I was also even
charging more for the actualmaster when it was analog, just
for the added time.
Soak, um, and as a result therewere less and less people going
for the analog because of thecost difference.
(31:35):
And so I actually ran a test forlike over a year where I just
like stopped using my analog.
I didn't tell it, and this wasactually during COVID, right, so
like there wasn't anybodycoming to the studio anymore and
watching me.
It was all remote or likewhatever.
So I decided I was going to runa test, because you always have
(31:55):
those arguments where peopleare like, oh, if you'd done an
analog, that would have soundedbetter.
But it's like you can't masterthe same song twice without
being biased from the firstmaster.
So I'm like I'm just going touse the clients as the test,
right?
So I stopped using my analog fora year and just went itb and I
didn't tell anybody.
And you know even some clientswho I knew were only coming to
(32:18):
me because they were like gearstops and they I want you to run
it through the you know theniff tube like whatever, like
tube compressor for the box tonelike stuff like that, like real
analog purists, yeah.
And I did all of the mastersitv and nobody said a peep,
nobody said anything changed,nobody sounded said anything
(32:39):
sounded different.
There was literally not a peep.
And so I was like okay, likethat's enough for me, like I
sold all my analog and I've beenonly plugging ever since.
That was probably three yearsago or so yeah, makes sense,
doesn't it?
Marc Matthews (32:54):
it's kind of it's quite.
You went down the route thereto kind of doing like a blind
test if you were just notexactly, yeah because you
information bias, can't you?
as soon as you tell somebody, oh, it's done a particular way,
they're inherently, maybeconsciously, subconsciously,
they're going to think aparticular way based on on the
information you've given them.
But yeah, you see more and morepeople doing that.
(33:14):
I guess, like, and theinformation, like the recall
element of it as well, makesperfect sense and I think, have
you noticed I suppose youwouldn't, really, I don't know
have you noticed a drop off orhave you have you noticed an
increase ever since in terms ofclients, people coming towards
you, since?
Eric Mitchell (33:30):
um, no kind of no change in either direction in
that regard.
Um, it was more just.
Like you know, you mentionedthe bias like.
That obviously exists withourselves too.
So it's like, um, my own biaswould affect if I was trying to
decide, you know, which one ofthese workflows sounds better.
Right, and so I was.
That's why I'm like these arethe clients, like this is their
(33:52):
art, like they know it way moreintimately.
You know, I'm hearing it forthe first time for a master.
They've already listened to itlike 300 times.
You know to like.
So it's like if somethingchanges in a negative way, or
like the quality that theyexpect from me after working
with me for so long changes allof a sudden, they're gonna
notice, right.
So, and they didn't.
(34:12):
And you know, ever since then,I've, you know, been on the
receiving end of a lot of, uh,malicious online discussion in
like mastering groups, where youhave these guys that they have
all the stuff, like I used tohave, and you know they're
arguing that it's superior, andso I want to put this out there,
(34:34):
because it's what I always sayto them, and I think that this
is important for other people toconsider too.
It's like and I don't mean thisas an insult, I just think it's
the truth.
Someone who says that theycan't do with plugins what they
can do with analog, is notspeaking to the capabilities of
the tools.
They're speaking to their owncapabilities nice, nice, I like
(34:58):
that.
Marc Matthews (34:58):
It's uh.
It's going to be a good uhsoundbite for for the episode
yeah, we got a bunch more hatefor that.
Eric Mitchell (35:04):
Yeah, no no, I'd tend to agree and I specifically
say that because I what I willsay in defense of the analog
guys is that it is a shorterpath with analog right.
So, like, if I'm trying to getto endpoint X, I can get to that
endpoint with either tool set,but the analog one is shorter.
It takes more plug-inprocessing to equate to the same
(35:30):
Sonics in the end, but it'sdefinitely possible.
Now is what I'm getting at, andso, like, I think anybody who
can't do that just hasn'texplored modern plugins enough
to figure it out for themselves.
Yet you get what I'm trying tosay I do.
Marc Matthews (35:44):
Yeah, I do, I do.
It's an.
I have seen these conversationsin various forums and I'm
always a voyeur just looking atthe comments and reading what
people are putting in particular.
Um, yeah, it's alwaysinteresting when you start that
debate mastering engineersworldwide or something along
those lines exactly that's whatexactly I'm talking about.
Eric Mitchell (36:06):
And you know and this is coming from somebody who
, like a lot of times you seethose conversations it's coming
from the two sides of the peoplewho own one or the or the other
, or subscribe to one or theother, but don't have the cross
experience.
But, like, I worked for adecade on analog, like, so I'm
someone, I'm someone who has had, who's already had all that,
done both, and I'm telling you,the tools don't matter fantastic
(36:29):
.
Marc Matthews (36:29):
I think that's a great place to uh to wrap up the
episode 35 minutes in man um soyeah, eric's been.
It's been a pleasure having youback on the podcast today to to
go through the the distortionside of things, as we alluded to
in episode 143 audience.
Do go listen to that episode aswell, because we do reference
it a bit in this, in thisepisode today.
So, before we wrap things up,is there anything you, uh,
(36:51):
you're working on anything youwant to share with the listeners
or maybe I say maybe and alsowhere they can find you online?
Eric Mitchell (36:58):
definitely, yeah, you can find any all my info at
ericmitchellaudiocom.
And then um.
As far as what I've beenworking on that I'm most excited
about to share is I actuallyhave um like a audio desktop
audio meter.
I've been working on it's likea 11 function real-time analyzer
, um, and I just launched thatlast month and so anybody who's
(37:21):
looking for like a nice desktoprta um, you can get that at
captiveaudiocom nice.
Marc Matthews (37:28):
I will put a link in the episode description,
both through the website and uh,also for the frequency analyzer
as well I'm sure did you putposts on instagram.
Eric Mitchell (37:38):
Uh, I'm sure I did see, so I see some yeah,
yeah, I posted a few like um,just with the launch, but um,
yeah, we just like put thepre-order up and then I'll be
able to start shipping them likeMarch, april-ish time.
I've been using the prototypefor like two years and I don't
want to be without it now.
I love it.
Marc Matthews (37:57):
Yeah, yeah, it's so cool.
Whenever I speak to guests andI always say, like, have you got
anything you're working on oryou want to share?
And some of the stuff is quiteleft field of what you'd expect.
Sometimes you'd think it'd belike a release or some music.
Yeah, it's quite cool.
I was chatting to someone, um,who's another podcaster but also
a producer as well, and they'rereleasing a chatbot and they've
(38:19):
gone down that route.
So it's really interesting tosee how people are pivoting
still within the music industryand music tech.
Yeah, just slightly pivotingwith regards to, like, either
the technical side of thingswith ai or like you're doing
yourself with regards to theanalyzer and actually creating
some sort of sort of hardwarecomponent that you can work with
, which is really interesting.
It's also quite inspiring aswell.
(38:41):
Makes me think I want to startto pivot in these different
directions hell yeah, man, weare like.
Eric Mitchell (38:46):
My parents raised me on the mantra that you
should always have lots of ironsin the fire.
Indeed, yes, especially beingself-employed, so it's like I'm
always just trying to make suremy butt's covered, if you know
what I mean.
Marc Matthews (39:00):
Yeah, I bet you're spinning many plates, as
we say.
Eric Mitchell (39:03):
I don't know if that translates, but yeah, yeah,
yeah.
Many irons in the fire.
Marc Matthews (39:06):
Indeed mate, eric .
Eric, it's been an absolutepleasure.
Like I said about that episode,in like a year's time again
we'll do the whole.
We'll get some audio examples.
Eric Mitchell (39:18):
I think that'd be really cool.
Marc Matthews (39:21):
Ace mate, I'll leave you to enjoy the rest of
your day and I'll catch up withyou soon.
And so I want to put this out there because it's
what I always say to them, and Ithink that this is important
for other people to consider too.
It's like and I don't mean thisas an insult, I just think it's
the truth Someone who says thatthey can't do with plugins,
what they can do with analog, isnot speaking to the
capabilities of the tools.
(00:21):
They're speaking to their owncapabilities.
You're listening to the Insidethe Mix podcast with your host,
mark.
Marc Matthews (00:28):
Matthews, welcome to Inside the Mix, your go-to
podcast for music creation andproduction.
Whether you're crafting yourfirst track or refining your
mixing skills, join me each weekfor expert interviews,
practical tutorials and insightsto help you level up your music
and smash it in the musicindustry.
Let's dive in.
(00:48):
Hey folks, welcome back orwelcome to the Inside the Mix
podcast.
Before we dive into thisepisode, I want to know if
you've got a question, becauseI'd love to hear from you on the
podcast.
Click the speak pipe link inthe episode description to
submit your question, share yoursocial media handles or website
or whatever it is you'reworking on at the moment and get
(01:10):
featured in an episode.
Plus one lucky question orlistener submission will win a
coffee voucher on me each month,and I say you'll get to feature
on the podcast.
If you're unsure of the format,check out episode 175 and
you'll get an idea.
So that aside, today I amthrilled to welcome back my
guest, eric Mitchell of EricMitchell Audio.
(01:32):
He's returning for his secondstint on the Inside the Mix
podcast and the episode lastyear so I say last year, so that
was in 2024, was episode 143.
The Art of DIY Mastering Tipsand Strategies to Master your
Own Music was in 2024.
It was episode 143.
The art of diy mastering tipsand strategies to master your
own music was actually the mostpopular episode of 2024, so much
so that we got eric back ontoday.
(01:53):
So if you haven't heard up onebefore, do go check it out.
Obviously, listen to this onefirst, then head back and listen
to that episode.
But that's enough of myrambling.
Eric, how are you?
And thanks for joining me todaygreat man.
Eric Mitchell (02:04):
How are you?
It's good to be back yeah, I'mgood.
Marc Matthews (02:07):
I'm good, mate.
I'm getting in the swinger thing, a lot of interviews at the
start of 2025, so just greasingthe interview wheels again, mate
there you go, yeah yeah, Ithink this is the third or
fourth one of the year, which is, which is great, enjoying it,
getting back in the swing of it,mate, um, but yeah, so it's a
pleasure to have you back on.
So, for those of you who mightnot know, uh, or have not
(02:28):
listened to episode 143, shameon you.
Uh.
Eric is a true audio industrymulti-hyphenate songwriter,
producer, mixer, mastering,engineer, live sound expert and
educator as well.
He works predominantly withelectronic artists and labels,
and fans of the band glass jawmay well know his work on the
live sort of scene.
He's been responsible for theirlive sound since 2018 and also
(02:51):
remastered their 20thanniversary vinyl box set.
So today we are going to bediving deep into the often
misunderstood topic of masteringdigital distortion.
Now, we did allude to this inepisode 143 and I said we were
going to come back to it, andthat's what we're doing today.
So you mentioned in thatepisode about using distortion
(03:12):
in mastering and it reallypiqued my interest.
So how to use it creatively andalso I think it's important to
know when to avoid it.
So I think it'd be good tostart, maybe, if you could start
by explaining digitaldistortion to our listeners and
what they are, what to look outfor and why it's such a nuanced
topic in mastering well.
Eric Mitchell (03:32):
So, just based on my past experience with clients
, I think when you, when you saylike digital distortion,
there's probably like two, twolike different applications of
that terminology.
One which I would consider islike intentional distortion or
like saturation things, whereyou're trying to bolster the
(03:56):
sonics on purpose.
And then there's like digitaldistortion in like the
artifacting sense, where thereare like distortions happening
as a result of processing thatmay not be intentional, and so I
think it's like important to totalk about both sides there.
Um, and so obviously likeintentional distortion, um, you
(04:23):
know there's saturators whichdistortion?
For those people who don't know, it's like when you hear a
guitar amp and the guitar is allgritty and dirty.
That is a saturation.
If you didn't have that onthere, the guitar is essentially
going to be clean.
So it's adding harmonics, evenin odd harmonics, to the
original signal.
(04:43):
Well, even and or odd,depending on which saturator
you're using, I guess.
But and so that that's like theon the face, like application,
I think.
But in my mind, saturation iskind of almost happening
everywhere.
In in an example that I'll giveyou is like compression.
(05:05):
I almost think of compressionmore as like distortion and
color than actual compression,because, like all compressors
compress right and so, like,what is the main differences
between them?
Which is usually like theirdistortions or like the box tone
that they're gonna add to yoursignal.
(05:26):
So most of the time when I'mpicking compressors, I'm not
picking for the compressoritself, I'm picking for the, the
color of the distortion thatit's going to add to my signal
in.
You know so, certaincompressors for drums, certain
for guitar vocals, vice versa,and where the saturation that is
going to add it will complementthe signal.
(05:49):
And on the opposite end, likemanaging, you know, unintended
distortions, especially withwithin electronic music or any
genre where, like super loudoutput is the desired end result
, it's almost impossible to getsuch high outputs without
introducing distortions from,you know, clipping and limiting
(06:12):
and things like that.
And so I found that usingmultiple stages of those things
doing little bits rather thanlike heavy-handed processing um,
allows you to manage the, thestages more fine-tuned and and
manage where the distortion iscoming in or, you know,
(06:35):
minimizing it to a degree thatit's not adding anything
negative to the end result.
Sorry, that was a long ramble.
No, that's fine, I was justtaking it in.
Marc Matthews (06:43):
So what we have there is we've got two you
mentioned there sort ofintentional and unintentional
distortion, so the intentionalbeing saturation, rather than
even and odd harmonics Put myteeth back in and then we've got
digital distortion, so that'ssort of like the non-intentional
, almost sort of likedestructive sort of distortion,
so it uh sort of uh distortion.
(07:03):
So it's interesting there whatyou mentioned about distortion
in series, because that's oftenthe approach that I take with
regards to compression.
So it kind of marries in mythought process, that's and you
you see that a lot as wellrather than just being
heavy-handed with one compressor, you do it in series, um, so
can you elaborate a bit abouthow you use that creatively and
mastering there?
Because you you touched on itthere with regards to we're
aiming for lap I say aiming for,I don't want to use the term
(07:25):
aiming for, but obviously withinelectronic music it's got to be
a certain loudness right for itto be competitive, especially
when it's played out in a clubenvironment or on a sound system
.
So how are you sort of usingdigital distortion in mastering
to add character and sort of,let's say, emotion to a track?
Eric Mitchell (07:43):
well, lots of different ways.
So like I can't remember if wewent over this in the last
episode, but so I don't want tobe too repetitive, but I
primarily stem master yes, Iremember that, yep yep, maybe
like one out of 100 masters is astereo master, so it's almost
all stems and so, um, I'mpersonally my workflow allows me
(08:04):
again more control over where Iwant to apply saturation and
distortion and mastering becauseof that, so I can use some
saturation on the drum stemthat's separate of the bass stem
or the synths and I can reallycontrol the tones synths and I
(08:28):
can really control the tones andso, um, generally I'm almost
never adding distortion andstuff to to low end and, like
the sub range, um, I try to keepthe, the bottom of the mix, the
master like, as clean aspossible.
Um, just because subs andeverything needs, like that,
room to breathe and so I don'twant to compress and saturate
and squish.
you know that that range so muchbut generally speaking, a lot
(08:53):
of times I'll look to distortionas almost like a form of eq, so
like, let's say, there's like a, a synth stem that is a little
dull, it's like sure, I canthrow an eq on there and, like
you know, crank a high shelf orfind the presence range.
But sometimes using distortionand tailoring the distortion
(09:14):
with like a high pass or bandpass and focusing it on just a
certain range, you can bringthat presence or the life into
the signal without EQ, just bythe distortion.
Marc Matthews (09:27):
Yeah, yeah, no, that makes perfect sense and
it's kind of like another.
That's the great thing aboutmusic, in a way, isn't it?
You can do more than one, youcan achieve a similar result
with more than one sort oftechnique or tool, and that's
exactly what you're doing there.
It reminds me of a conversationI had with Shane Slack and he
(09:49):
was talking about depth and howhe used bit depth on his drums
on a beat, rather than justgoing for the obvious sort of
like compression or saturation,like you say.
He was using bit depth to dothat.
So you mentioned saturationthere.
At any point.
Are you actually sort of usingdigital distortion like
overloading?
Eric Mitchell (10:06):
I said overloading, so yeah, yeah, go
ahead, yeah yeah, so like, uh,when you get to the, the final
stage of the master and you'regetting like your final level
output, for me, um, it'stypically like the master
processing and then I'll hit aclipper and two limiters and so
in the cl clearly we're likepushing it over and clipping it,
and so there are distortionsthat occur there and with
(10:33):
electronic music especially, orany loud music, I guess where
I've come to arrive is so Iactually over-engineer the
transients into the master, andthe reason for that is because
when I get to the end I'm goingto clip and limit.
I still want it to be punchy.
But clearly the goal here isthat we're clipping transients
(10:55):
right Because we're trying toclip so that the limiter is not
working too hard.
So every time we're clippingoff those transients we're going
to get distortion.
Clipping off those transientswe're going to get distortion,
but when done in the right way,that clipping distortion can
actually add impact to thetransients in the drum.
So it's like a lot of peopleyou'll say like, oh my god, like
(11:16):
clippers they're killingtransients.
If you over engineer thetransients and you're clipping
them the right way, theyactually bring some punch
because of the distortion thatoccurs every time the clipper is
clipping the transient.
Marc Matthews (11:30):
Yeah, just to interject there.
When you say over-engineer thetransient, what is it you're
doing there, when you'reover-engineering the transient
itself?
Eric Mitchell (11:37):
Well.
So I like to think of mixingand mastering like I listen to
two overall aspects.
There's the balance of the mix,of course, like the total sonic
balance, but then I also listento the transient balance, and
so what I mean there isoftentimes you'll get a mix in
where the snare is ripping uphere, but then the kick is only
(12:00):
cutting through here, so thetransient mix is not balanced.
All the drums should be punchingthrough and so when I say over
engineer, um, if let's say atthe end of the track, you know
this is your, the main part ofyour mix, and these are your
transients, that's where youwant them to sit.
Before I get to mastering, I'mengineering, like the transients
(12:21):
, super exaggerated right, likeway, way poking out of the mix
so that then when I clip the mixdown it's back more where the
relationship I wanted.
But then I have the the abilityto control how much of that
transient I'm clipping down intothe mix you know what I mean?
yeah, I get you and then theother part of that is um is?
(12:41):
I particularly enjoy using SIRstandard clip which has a
saturation option where it willapply saturation only to the
signal when it's being clipped.
So if you're only clipping yourtransients and then you just
give the tiniest little bump ofthat distortion onto the clipped
(13:04):
signal, it helps round thecorners on the clipping, so it's
not so sharp but you still getthe nice punch.
It just sounds like unclippedtransients even though you're
clipping.
You know what I mean.
Marc Matthews (13:17):
Yeah, yeah, that's the same clipper that I
use.
It's a very good clipper.
Eric Mitchell (13:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc Matthews (13:21):
It's a fantastic piece of kit, and it's super
affordable as well.
If I remember right, I think Ipaid about 20 or 30 quid for it,
whatever the equivalent is indollars.
Still, it's very good, andyou're only sorry, going back to
sort of like the conversationthat we had just now about doing
it in series One clipper.
Or are you finding that you'reusing multiple clippers in
(13:43):
series again?
Or are you finding that you'reusing multiple clippers in
series again, or are you justdoing the heavy lifting with one
?
Eric Mitchell (13:48):
It kind of depends on the track and how
extreme of an output they'reasking for.
You get the standard loudness,but there are this handful of
clients that it's like holy moly, you're trying to blow the
speakers up with this output.
So it really depends on that.
But I would say like on averageuh, one clipper, two limiters
(14:10):
one clipper, two limiters.
Marc Matthews (14:12):
I love that because that's exactly what I do
, so I love, I love that you'resaying that.
Um, that's, that's great man.
I was.
I was thinking then when youwere talking.
Obviously he's paying attention, but it also reminded me of
another podcast I was listeningto when they were going through
and they had audio examples ofclippers, limiters, compression,
trying to achieve a similarthing, and I think now in
(14:32):
preparation, it would have beenquite cool to do something
similar.
Maybe that's another one forfurther down the line again, get
some audio examples.
I did something similar with IanStewart last year when we went
through mid-side processing andit worked out really well.
So yeah, man, it'd be great ifwe maybe we'll get some, some
audio examples so the listenerscan can delve into that yeah, we
(14:52):
can do that yeah, yeah, I thinkthat'd be really cool to do,
just so they can hear thedifference, because I I found it
really useful when I waslistening to that podcast and I
wish I could give it a shout out, but I cannot remember, I think
it, think it was Sonic Scoop.
I could be wrong, I think it wasSonic Scoop Right on.
But going back to what you saidabout you using STEM, and I
remember the conversation we hadnow about STEM mastering, where
(15:13):
often they'll send you theprojects and you've got, if I
can remember rightly, you'vepretty much got every DAW set up
ready to go in a hot site notusing distortion on the on the
low frequencies.
If someone was to send you astem not stem mix a stereo mix
(15:37):
is it could you still dosomething similar?
Is it a similar process?
Eric Mitchell (15:40):
because obviously there you've got less
flexibility in terms of how youcan treat each frequency range
yeah, definitely lessflexibility in a stereo sense,
but even there, like you know,the the tools that we have at
our disposal now for adding andmanaging distortion are not most
of them are not just widebandlike you can tailor you know
(16:04):
what part of the frequency youwant it to be working on, like
hd2, for example, plug-inalliance I don't know if you
ever use that one I don't thinkI've got a lot of plugins that
plug in alliance plugins, but Idon't think I've ever used that
one I might.
Yes, the hd2 black box.
Marc Matthews (16:18):
It's a saturator oh, of course, yeah, I have.
Eric Mitchell (16:21):
Yeah, yep, yep yep, but that one, like you can
choose to do like a high passand only saturate, you know,
like the upper and or a bandpass and just focus it.
So, like a lot of times, I'mnot doing just like wide band,
I'm very specifically focusingwhere the distortion is being
applied yeah, that makes perfectsense.
Marc Matthews (16:41):
Thinking back to my question now, I probably
could have answered that myselfthe way you described it there.
Yeah, we've got more discretecontrol now, haven't we over the
individual bands.
Now we process them.
So it makes it makes perfectsense.
So this kind of segues onnicely to my next question, and
this is going down the route ofsort of like common mistakes
producers, engineers, masteringengineers might make when using
(17:03):
distortion in their mastering.
Can you tell our audience howthey can possibly avoid those
pitfalls?
Eric Mitchell (17:09):
Sure, I feel like saturation and distortion to me
is kind of like salt in food,right, like, most food needs a
little salt to wake up theflavor, but you can very quickly
and very easily over salt yourfood, right, and so like.
The thing with distortion isit's kind of almost like
(17:32):
blurring an image, right, soit's like if you have this
signal that's very crisp andpristine, the more distortion
you add to it, the more smearedand blurry that gets.
Right, because it's adding allthe harmonics.
It's filling in all the spacebetween the the original lines
that were so clean, and so wetalked about this last time too.
(17:53):
Like the the original linesthat were so clean, and so we
talked about this last time too.
Like the the in 2025, thisabundance of like bad audio
advice on the internet, and youknow how many instagram videos
you'll be fed where somebody'slike you want huge subs, throw
on the distortion and saturateyour whole mix and crank the
load like, like.
There's so much bad advice andso like.
(18:14):
It's really just, I think, goagain.
Going back to what we talked toin the last one, too, is just
like using your ears, right,because it's like you got to
listen to what you're doing andnot just be like doing these
things because you know, someonea video told you, or, or you
think that's what you should bedoing.
Obviously you got to experiment, to learn, to learn this stuff.
(18:35):
But the pitfall here, I think,is like OK, I've distorted my
subs, now I'm distorting mysynths, let's distort my drums
now to push them up intoeverything else, and at the end
you've just got this big ball ofdistortion.
Marc Matthews (18:49):
Yeah, yeah.
Eric Mitchell (18:51):
You can't really.
You know you don't want to gooverboard with it, um, but a
little bit goes a long way.
I feel like, uh, it's anadditive thing, right?
So like if you added a littlebit here, a little bit there, by
the time you get to the end,all those small things have
added up to somethingsignificant and meaningful yeah,
wise words, my friend.
Marc Matthews (19:11):
I remember having that conversation about the, uh
the whole like uh social mediaand uh yeah, various try this,
this and this.
And it reminds me of how I was,um, helping somebody out with
some mixing and they, uh, theycame in with a project and they
had the uh, a plug-in chain.
I was like, what have you gotgoing on here?
(19:33):
And he was just kind of like,oh, this is what my friend told
me to do because it worked forhim.
And I was just like, yeah,that's good man, but I don't
know if it's going to work inthis instance.
So you've got to like I likewhat you said there about using
the salt and food analogy andhow you've got to sort of like
it's counterintuitive but pepperit, it in here and there and
(19:55):
where it's needed, and I thinkit's.
It's quite easy.
I remember when I first startedout, when I was producing and I
would be working on somethingand thinking in in a silo, in
like maybe I'm working on drumsand bass and whatnot, and
thinking I'll add a bit thereand then do another bit and add
a bit.
But when you get to the end,that's when you realize you've
got too much.
So it's kind of like you needto think of the bigger picture
if you're doing it individually,you're gonna, you can quite
easily.
So you get that big ball ofdistortion.
(20:16):
And it's kind of the same, Ifind, with time-based processing
as well like reverbs.
When people start stickingreverbs on every channel, then
you get this big mono.
It's almost like big mono, justa big reverb, exactly because
you've just overdone it and Ithink it's so easy to do and it
just I think that just I meanthis is probably another episode
in itself, but I think it'sjust overthinking it and
(20:36):
thinking you've just got tothrow the kitchen sink at
everything.
You've got all these tools withthese plugins and these
techniques, but you don't haveto use them in every track,
correct?
Eric Mitchell (20:44):
that's key yeah, and another thing you were just
you just brought up there too islike, especially with like the
reverb and distortion stuff likethis, like for someone in a
non-mastering context who's justlike making the track or
perhaps even mixing, some ofthat stuff is way less apparent
before it's mastered, right,because it's it's.
(21:05):
You know the backgroundinformation and as soon as you
make the track you know minusfour luffs or whatever some
stupid thing.
All that stuff that was in theback is now just as loud in the
front.
So you've got cranked reverbtails, crank distortion.
All this other stuff comesforward that you may not have
noticed yeah, yeah.
Marc Matthews (21:24):
Have you got any tips on, like, for those who are
noticing that and gettingfeedback from mastering
engineers or whatever it isthey're using to to get that
final master, what would youadvise them do to nip that in
the bud before it gets to themastering stage?
Eric Mitchell (21:41):
so probably two things, like for myself when I'm
producing.
If for any of that kind of stufflike reverb is the is a
wonderful example like that, Iknow in the end I it's more
atmospheric and vibe and notsupposed to be in the forefront,
I'll put it where I think itshould be and I'm like, okay,
that's the level where I want itto be at the end and then I'll
(22:02):
just bring it back a couple dbbecause I know that it's gonna
get lifted in mastering.
Um, the second thing you can doand this is like dangerous
advice because there's so manymastering engineers that are
like don't do that.
But like you can put a limiteron your master bus and like test
, yeah, yeah, yeah, mastering,but like don't.
(22:24):
I wouldn't say, throw that onthere and work into it, just use
it as like a okay, I'm going toturn this on and what does my
mix sound like when I limit it?
Obviously, there's going to beway more going on when your
track gets mastered than just alimiter being thrown on, but at
least it gives you a quicklittle window into like what
happens to my mix once thingsget kind of squashed yeah.
Marc Matthews (22:44):
So the first one there is something I do as well
as I like with reverb or anddelay or to get it to the point
where I can hear it, and thenI'll just back it off, knowing
that it's going to be where itneeds to be further down the
line.
And what you mentioned thereabout sticking the limiter on
the end is great.
I think that's really goodadvice.
To be fair, I mean, it's notgoing to replicate or it's not
going to.
Yeah, it's not going toreplicate what it's going to
(23:05):
sound like when it's finallymastered, but it out on what
maybe needs to come down incertain, certain aspects.
And I know some DAWs now.
For example, logic has abuilt-in mastering assistance.
You use something along thoselines.
But yeah, like say, it'll giveyou a good idea that reverb
tails are sticking out too much,or maybe you need to dial the
feedback on a delay or somethingyeah, I think it's.
(23:26):
I think it does work.
So we touch in a nice littlesegue.
This moves on to the next part.
So specific tools or pluginsyou'd recommend for working with
digital distortion.
You've already mentioned blackbox and where you and you've
mentioned the standard clip aswell.
Are there any others?
Eric Mitchell (23:43):
yeah, a really incredible, uh, saturation tool
by tone projects called kelvin.
You familiar with that one no,no, I've got, so I've got a few
time projects, uh, plugins yeah,they have that unisom
compressor, which is awesome aswell yeah, yeah but yeah, um
(24:04):
kelvin and then um, acousticaaudio has a master bus processor
called snow which is emulating,I believe, the uh neve portico
to master bus processor.
But it has the uh, the twosaturation distortion flavors in
(24:28):
there the silk, like the redand the blue, um, which on the
hardware is something thatsounds magical and they capture
that really well.
So I use that a lot for, like,top end saturation and
distortion.
Dark glass, the bass plug-innice.
Marc Matthews (24:48):
I haven't heard of them.
The last two, I haven't heardof that's by neural dsp oh no, I
like the neural dsp stuff.
I've got a, um, oh, which onehave I got?
I think it's the portnoy.
Is it the portnoy?
I can't remember.
It's sidetracking now.
It's making me think now, what,what guitar emulators I've got?
Um, but the neural dsp stuff'sreally good it's very good.
Eric Mitchell (25:08):
Yeah, um, they made.
They made the uh Darkglass basspedal in a little plugin.
Marc Matthews (25:14):
Oh, wow.
Eric Mitchell (25:15):
Which has a very specific distortion sound that I
use a lot on effects, sends andthings like that.
Marc Matthews (25:21):
Yeah.
Eric Mitchell (25:22):
And their guitar amps.
Actually I've used their guitaramps creatively a lot on synths
and other things besides guitarVocals, stuff like that.
Marc Matthews (25:32):
That's made me think that I've never actually
thought about doing that.
I've only ever used it onguitar.
Um, I've never thought of usingit on a synth.
I'm gonna do that on my nexttrack, uh, and give it a go.
Yeah, I've never thought ofusing it because some of the
sounds and the just the patchesin there are wild man yep, um,
and they're really really good.
Eric Mitchell (25:48):
I'm gonna give that and on brand with this
episode, those amps.
They're just distortion boxes.
You know what I mean.
So yeah, really, you can reallyget some crazy stuff out of
your sense with some of thecolors in there yeah, do you
find that you?
Marc Matthews (26:02):
do you ever like limit yourself to how many you
use in a project, or is itliterally just down to if I feel
it's needed, then I'll?
I'll stick, I'll use it yeah,no, no limits here.
Eric Mitchell (26:14):
Like I I can't remember if we went over this,
but I I run a hackintosh like Ipurposely built like this.
It's like a 10 core, all coresoverclocked to like 5.2
gigahertz so I can run just like, yeah, launch the, you know,
launch everything in.
I'll even still hit, hitceilings with this, like I'm
(26:34):
using stems and you know, youget a couple acoustica plugins
and some soothes and spiffsgoing and it caps out pretty
quick.
But, um, no, I don't put alimit, it's more just like.
But that being said, I will sayI also don't struggle with like
I see this come up a lot wherepeople are like how do you know
when it's done?
Like I don't struggle with thateither, because I can just hear
(26:54):
okay, it's balanced.
Now, like I'm not hearing anymore problems.
Marc Matthews (26:58):
Um, so I just go until I don't hear any issues, I
guess that's really interestingbecause that is like a common
uh pain point that I that I getmentioned to me by like on
instagram or whatnot bylisteners of the podcast yeah
sort of like you've been doingit for a while now.
At what point did you get whereyou were thinking to yourself.
You know what.
(27:18):
I trust my instincts.
Now it's done.
It's done, did it?
How long did it take to you toget to that, or did you do?
Was that like straight away?
Eric Mitchell (27:26):
definitely not straight away like for the first
.
Uh, I don't know, I'm just, I'mtrying to remember and guess
here like three to five years ofdoing this.
I was still, you know, taking itout and doing the car test and
and stuff like that andquestioning you know my own
judgment and feelings.
But like, even before I starteddoing this, uh, as a career, I
(27:50):
was doing it for myself in myband.
So I I even had time beforethat too.
But it's just like withanything right, like you, you do
it long enough and you, you,you gain this like comfort and
familiarity.
That's kind of hard to to relayto anybody who doesn't have it,
because the only way you canget it is by putting the time in
.
So it's like I think that's whyit's such a pain point is
(28:13):
because, like, if somebody whodoesn't have that experience yet
says to me, how do you knowwhen the song is done?
And I say I just know they'relike what the hell?
That's not helping me, you knowwhat I mean.
It's like it's it's hard torelay how you know, because it's
your experience that'sinforming it.
Marc Matthews (28:30):
You know what I mean yeah, yeah, when you know,
you know sort of thing, yeah so,um yeah, I don't really.
Eric Mitchell (28:35):
I don't really give myself any boxes or
guidelines.
I don't even use templates,like I don't like to approach a
song with like a pre-builtanything, because it's a new
song that's never existed beforeand I want to treat it like
uniquely and give it its ownattention.
Marc Matthews (28:49):
You know what I mean yeah, nice, I remember the
conversation now.
Then you get into mastering outnecessity.
Yeah, I think it was, wasn't itwhen you were working on your
own tracks and then you sent itto?
Did you send it to an engineerwe won't name names and then it
didn't quite come back the wayyou wanted and then you moved
into doing it yourself, if Iremember rightly correct?
yep, good memory, yeah, yeah youknow what I mean the amount of
(29:11):
interviews and people I speak to.
I'm very surprised.
I surprise myself sometimeswith how I remember these things
.
Eric Mitchell (29:16):
I was going to say, with the amount of
interviews you're doing, that'simpressive man.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc Matthews (29:21):
It's when I say oh, did we chat about this?
Eric Mitchell (29:23):
And then I realize oh no, that was totally
someone different, Then it getsreally awkward and I have to
just move on to something else.
Really quickly.
Marc Matthews (29:32):
Yeah, um, I did have one other question and I
can't remember if I asked youthis last time are you working?
Are you in the box, solely inthe box?
Did you have any outboard gear?
Eric Mitchell (29:40):
I'm in the box now.
I worked for a very long time,uh, with outboard, like you know
, 50, 60 grand worth of like thenicest analog I could get, like
niff, vertigo, master, like allthe the top shelf stuff and uh,
the issue there was, likeanalog recall is a massive pain
(30:04):
in the ass and especially forsomeone like myself you know if
I'm doing you know, three tofour masters a day.
Someone like myself, you knowif I'm doing you know three to
four masters a day and these,these are a lot of like
independent edm artists whooftentimes, again, we're you
know we're talking about howthey don't have the experience
to know how the mix is going totranslate to mastering.
That can also result in a lotof times like I'm just trying to
(30:28):
help realize the artist'svision and so I'm not trying to
change like the mix or thebalance.
You know what I mean.
I'm just trying to help realizethe artist's vision and so I'm
not trying to change like themix or the balance.
You know what I mean.
I'm just trying to master it.
But let's say it comes back andnow like the reverb like we're
talking about is cranked, sothey're like oh, I didn't know
the reverb was going to get soloud.
Can you turn that down?
That's the kind of stuff thatcomes up a lot with these
independent artists that may nothave as so.
That equals revisions, right,and so, like I'm doing three or
(30:51):
four a day and they're they'recoming back with, can you turn
the reverb down?
I've already gone and masteredlike three other tracks.
Now I gotta go recall the deskto turn a reverb down like yeah,
yeah, and so it was adding alot of time in the day.
So the way that I cameoriginally, that originally
approached that was like okay,analog revisions I have to
(31:12):
charge for.
Like in the box revisions arefree.
Analog revisions have a smallfee attached and I was also even
charging more for the actualmaster when it was analog, just
for the added time.
Soak, um, and as a result therewere less and less people going
for the analog because of thecost difference.
(31:35):
And so I actually ran a test forlike over a year where I just
like stopped using my analog.
I didn't tell it, and this wasactually during COVID, right, so
like there wasn't anybodycoming to the studio anymore and
watching me.
It was all remote or likewhatever.
So I decided I was going to runa test, because you always have
(31:55):
those arguments where peopleare like, oh, if you'd done an
analog, that would have soundedbetter.
But it's like you can't masterthe same song twice without
being biased from the firstmaster.
So I'm like I'm just going touse the clients as the test,
right?
So I stopped using my analog fora year and just went itb and I
didn't tell anybody.
And you know even some clientswho I knew were only coming to
(32:18):
me because they were like gearstops and they I want you to run
it through the you know theniff tube like whatever, like
tube compressor for the box tonelike stuff like that, like real
analog purists, yeah.
And I did all of the mastersitv and nobody said a peep,
nobody said anything changed,nobody sounded said anything
(32:39):
sounded different.
There was literally not a peep.
And so I was like okay, likethat's enough for me, like I
sold all my analog and I've beenonly plugging ever since.
That was probably three yearsago or so yeah, makes sense,
doesn't it?
Marc Matthews (32:54):
it's kind of it's quite.
You went down the route thereto kind of doing like a blind
test if you were just notexactly, yeah because you
information bias, can't you?
as soon as you tell somebody, oh, it's done a particular way,
they're inherently, maybeconsciously, subconsciously,
they're going to think aparticular way based on on the
information you've given them.
But yeah, you see more and morepeople doing that.
(33:14):
I guess, like, and theinformation, like the recall
element of it as well, makesperfect sense and I think, have
you noticed I suppose youwouldn't, really, I don't know
have you noticed a drop off orhave you have you noticed an
increase ever since in terms ofclients, people coming towards
you, since?
Eric Mitchell (33:30):
um, no kind of no change in either direction in
that regard.
Um, it was more just.
Like you know, you mentionedthe bias like.
That obviously exists withourselves too.
So it's like, um, my own biaswould affect if I was trying to
decide, you know, which one ofthese workflows sounds better.
Right, and so I was.
That's why I'm like these arethe clients, like this is their
(33:52):
art, like they know it way moreintimately.
You know, I'm hearing it forthe first time for a master.
They've already listened to itlike 300 times.
You know to like.
So it's like if somethingchanges in a negative way, or
like the quality that theyexpect from me after working
with me for so long changes allof a sudden, they're gonna
notice, right.
So, and they didn't.
(34:12):
And you know, ever since then,I've, you know, been on the
receiving end of a lot of, uh,malicious online discussion in
like mastering groups, where youhave these guys that they have
all the stuff, like I used tohave, and you know they're
arguing that it's superior, andso I want to put this out there,
(34:34):
because it's what I always sayto them, and I think that this
is important for other people toconsider too.
It's like and I don't mean thisas an insult, I just think it's
the truth.
Someone who says that theycan't do with plugins what they
can do with analog, is notspeaking to the capabilities of
the tools.
They're speaking to their owncapabilities nice, nice, I like
(34:58):
that.
Marc Matthews (34:58):
It's uh.
It's going to be a good uhsoundbite for for the episode
yeah, we got a bunch more hatefor that.
Eric Mitchell (35:04):
Yeah, no no, I'd tend to agree and I specifically
say that because I what I willsay in defense of the analog
guys is that it is a shorterpath with analog right.
So, like, if I'm trying to getto endpoint X, I can get to that
endpoint with either tool set,but the analog one is shorter.
It takes more plug-inprocessing to equate to the same
(35:30):
Sonics in the end, but it'sdefinitely possible.
Now is what I'm getting at, andso, like, I think anybody who
can't do that just hasn'texplored modern plugins enough
to figure it out for themselves.
Yet you get what I'm trying tosay I do.
Marc Matthews (35:44):
Yeah, I do, I do.
It's an.
I have seen these conversationsin various forums and I'm
always a voyeur just looking atthe comments and reading what
people are putting in particular.
Um, yeah, it's alwaysinteresting when you start that
debate mastering engineersworldwide or something along
those lines exactly that's whatexactly I'm talking about.
Eric Mitchell (36:06):
And you know and this is coming from somebody who
, like a lot of times you seethose conversations it's coming
from the two sides of the peoplewho own one or the or the other
, or subscribe to one or theother, but don't have the cross
experience.
But, like, I worked for adecade on analog, like, so I'm
someone, I'm someone who has had, who's already had all that,
done both, and I'm telling you,the tools don't matter fantastic
(36:29):
.
Marc Matthews (36:29):
I think that's a great place to uh to wrap up the
episode 35 minutes in man um soyeah, eric's been.
It's been a pleasure having youback on the podcast today to to
go through the the distortionside of things, as we alluded to
in episode 143 audience.
Do go listen to that episode aswell, because we do reference
it a bit in this, in thisepisode today.
So, before we wrap things up,is there anything you, uh,
(36:51):
you're working on anything youwant to share with the listeners
or maybe I say maybe and alsowhere they can find you online?
Eric Mitchell (36:58):
definitely, yeah, you can find any all my info at
ericmitchellaudiocom.
And then um.
As far as what I've beenworking on that I'm most excited
about to share is I actuallyhave um like a audio desktop
audio meter.
I've been working on it's likea 11 function real-time analyzer
, um, and I just launched thatlast month and so anybody who's
(37:21):
looking for like a nice desktoprta um, you can get that at
captiveaudiocom nice.
Marc Matthews (37:28):
I will put a link in the episode description,
both through the website and uh,also for the frequency analyzer
as well I'm sure did you putposts on instagram.
Eric Mitchell (37:38):
Uh, I'm sure I did see, so I see some yeah,
yeah, I posted a few like um,just with the launch, but um,
yeah, we just like put thepre-order up and then I'll be
able to start shipping them likeMarch, april-ish time.
I've been using the prototypefor like two years and I don't
want to be without it now.
I love it.
Marc Matthews (37:57):
Yeah, yeah, it's so cool.
Whenever I speak to guests andI always say, like, have you got
anything you're working on oryou want to share?
And some of the stuff is quiteleft field of what you'd expect.
Sometimes you'd think it'd belike a release or some music.
Yeah, it's quite cool.
I was chatting to someone, um,who's another podcaster but also
a producer as well, and they'rereleasing a chatbot and they've
(38:19):
gone down that route.
So it's really interesting tosee how people are pivoting
still within the music industryand music tech.
Yeah, just slightly pivotingwith regards to, like, either
the technical side of thingswith ai or like you're doing
yourself with regards to theanalyzer and actually creating
some sort of sort of hardwarecomponent that you can work with
, which is really interesting.
It's also quite inspiring aswell.
(38:41):
Makes me think I want to startto pivot in these different
directions hell yeah, man, weare like.
Eric Mitchell (38:46):
My parents raised me on the mantra that you
should always have lots of ironsin the fire.
Indeed, yes, especially beingself-employed, so it's like I'm
always just trying to make suremy butt's covered, if you know
what I mean.
Marc Matthews (39:00):
Yeah, I bet you're spinning many plates, as
we say.
Eric Mitchell (39:03):
I don't know if that translates, but yeah, yeah,
yeah.
Many irons in the fire.
Marc Matthews (39:06):
Indeed mate, eric .
Eric, it's been an absolutepleasure.
Like I said about that episode,in like a year's time again
we'll do the whole.
We'll get some audio examples.
Eric Mitchell (39:18):
I think that'd be really cool.
Marc Matthews (39:21):
Ace mate, I'll leave you to enjoy the rest of
your day and I'll catch up withyou soon.
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