March 4, 2025 • 33 mins
What makes a song truly resonate with listeners? In this episode, Marc Matthews and Aisle9 approach this question head-on by exploring a listener's struggle with finishing their song—feeling that while it’s good, it lacks that captivating quality that makes music unforgettable. Their conversation dives deep into understanding song engagement, examining why some tracks may feel uninspired despite being technically complete.
They unpack what makes a song great, breaking down essential ingredients like creating memorable hooks, enhancing emotional connections, and the role of collaboration in music production. Sharing insights from personal experiences, they discuss how feedback from fellow artists is crucial in refining songs to their fullest potential. They also explore determining when a song is finished and tackle the age-old question: How do you know when a song is finished?
With the fast-paced demands of today’s music industry, they address the importance of balancing quality with the need to release music into the world. From embracing risks in songwriting to the nuances of the creative process, this episode provides actionable insights to help you confidently push your music forward.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Marc Matthews (00:00):
But when is a song truly finished?
Is a song ever truly finished?
Is the question.
You're listening to the Insidethe Mix podcast with your host,
mark Matthews.
Welcome to Inside the Mix, yourgo-to podcast for music
creation and production.
Whether you're crafting yourfirst track or refining your
(00:20):
mixing skills, join me each weekfor expert interviews,
practical tutorials and insightsto help you level up your music
and smash it in the musicindustry.
Let's dive in.
Hey folks, welcome to Insidethe Mix.
In this episode we're divinginto another.
Ask Me Anything.
(00:41):
I don't know if that's going tobe the actual title of this
going forward, but I've just putit here in the notes Session,
where myself and my co-host hereR9, tim Benson, will be
answering not asking youquestions answering your
questions.
How are you, tim?
How are things?
Aisle9 (00:57):
Yeah, not too bad thanks .
Yeah, yeah, a bit tired, butI'm all right.
Yeah, yeah, good, we werediscussing off air the fact that
, um, it is wet and windy, andI'm fairly certain it was the
last time we spoke as well, yeah, it always seems to be the way
in the southwest yeah, Iliterally, if you could hear it
outside, it sounds like one ofthose movies where someone's
(01:17):
lashed to the mast and, like youknow, it's just like the the
wind and the rain keep pouringover.
Marc Matthews (01:24):
Yeah, yeah, it's really buffeted as we say yeah,
yeah, indeed.
So this is another one of theseepisodes whereby we're
answering your question orquestions Before we dive in.
If you do have a question, we'dlove to hear from you.
Click the SpeakPipe link in theepisode description to submit
your question, share your socialmedia handle or website and get
(01:46):
featured on the podcast.
All you need to do is click onthat link.
You don't need a Speakpipeaccount, you don't need any
particular setup.
It's just like sending an audiomessage and just say hey, it's
whatever your artist name is.
My question for Mark and Tim isyou can find me at XYZ and then
you get featured on the podcast.
Plus, one lucky question willwin a coffee voucher on me.
(02:09):
I say coffee because I likecoffee, and if you don't like
the coffee, you can just give itto someone else.
If you want to know what thissounds like in practice, check
out episode 175 of the podcast.
So, moving on to this actualepisode, this month's question
comes from podcast listenermichael, and it's, uh, the one
(02:31):
thing a lot of songwriters,artists and producers can relate
to, and here's his question.
So this is an instance wherebyhe actually emailed me, so you
can email me the question aswell.
The uh.
The link to do that, or rather,you can DM me.
You can click on the Instagramlink in the episode description.
So his question is this Ifinished a song, but it feels
just good rather than trulycompelling.
(02:52):
I want to create music thattakes listeners on a journey
they enjoy, rather than one theysimply tolerate, with a few
interesting moments.
I really like that description.
Do you have any advice on how tomake songs more engaging?
Should I stop pushing to finishsongs alone and instead
collaborate with a producer whocan bring out the full potential
(03:14):
of the song?
So it's a fantastic question,michael.
Many of us have been in thisposition whereby a song feels
technically finished I have manytimes but lacks that special
spark.
That's something to make itinteresting.
So today we're going to unpackwhy some songs feel just good
instead of great, the role ofcollaboration in unlocking a
song's potential, and when torefine versus when to let go.
(03:38):
So let's dive in with this.
So the first topic ofconversation I thought would be
good why do some songs feeluninspired even though they're
finished?
So is it a melodic issue?
Is it a production issue?
Is it an emotional connection?
Is it artistic vision.
So I've spoken a lot to beginwith, so I'll throw this over to
you, tim, what are yourthoughts?
Aisle9 (04:00):
I was just trying to unpick this one because I think
in one sense you can get to thatpoint, can't you, where you've
got everything finished and youfeel like it's reasonably well
produced and you can't findanything more to add or take
away to make the song soundbetter.
(04:20):
But it just may not be yourgreatest song, it may lack some
sort of thing, and sometimes Iwonder whether we sort of will
get a song like that and we knowit's good.
But we, we are missing thatspark and I don't know whether
you can always find and add thatI sometimes you can always find
(04:43):
and add that I, I sometimes youcan.
But sometimes you're better tomove on and write another song,
write another piece of music,because sometimes I think it
just happens.
It literally, it happens thatall the ingredients come
together, right, um, youremotions are right, your, you,
you.
You've got something thatyou're trying to communicate in
(05:05):
the track and you've kind ofhooked on to that.
You know all the production hascome together and it works.
I mean, I don't know that youcan walk in the studio and write
stairway to heaven, or you know, every day you can't just write
an absolute classic song.
There isn't a formula for it.
So I would put that out there.
That I mean that doesn't meanthat this question isn't valid.
(05:27):
But, like you know, I thinksometimes maybe retreat and and
sort of going well, acceptingthat not everything is great,
that you write is important, andsort of going well, I'll live
to fight, another day I'll writetrack and maybe the next track
will be a classic.
But then I mean at the same time, yeah, I think there are things
(05:49):
that you can do to your trackto make it more engaging, to
perhaps add that special,something that really hooks
people in, and I think hook isprobably the biggest word there.
It's like people love thingsthat are hooky, that they
remember, that they, you know,they don't just go oh, that was
(06:10):
nice, and then there's nothingsticky in their heads.
So I think vocal melody or, um,you know, if it's instrumental,
instrumental hook is, yeah,that is is, you know, I mean
nobody really remembers thetrack because the drum groove
was incredible.
If it doesn't have a great, youknow, melodic hook or vocal
(06:34):
yeah you know.
So that is important.
Marc Matthews (06:38):
Or lyrical hook as well, maybe yeah, yeah, I
would agree with that.
And just going back to what yousaid there about with regards
to the song and not every songis going to be Stairway, is it?
Ultimately?
I think there's a quote by EdSheeran.
I could be paraphrasing hereand I might be totally making
this up again, like I did lasttime.
Well, I did make the last oneup about Copland and his hi-hat.
Aisle9 (06:59):
I did make that up.
Marc Matthews (07:00):
No, no, it was reported that that was true.
Aisle9 (07:02):
That was true, yeah, yeah, it was Carl.
He was flown in, wasn't he?
Marc Matthews (07:05):
Yeah, neon Highway.
He did back me up on that.
So, ed Sheeran, it wassomething along the lines of
like, you write all these songsand you just write a plethora of
songs and it's only the smallpercent that will actually make
it the cream of the crop thatwill rise to the top.
And you've got to go throughthat of just creating and
(07:27):
writing and exercising thatcreative muscle and then
eventually it will happen.
You'll have that one standoutmoment, I think.
And, um, if I look, I haven'tgot an extensive back catalog,
but I'm certainly, both when Iwas in the metal band and my
solo stuff.
There are songs that stand outabove others where I thought you
know what?
I really hit my stride in thegroove in that one, uh, air
quotes, and.
But there are other songs whereI'm like it's finished, I'm
happy with it, I'm going torelease it, but it doesn't stand
(07:49):
up against the rest of mycatalogue.
But I release it anyway becauseyou've gone through that hard
work and that process of doingit.
You might as well put it outthere.
But another thing you saidthere about the hook, one thing
I like to think of as well, andI don't know if this transcends
all genres because it probablydoesn't is to get to the point
relatively quick as well.
If you want to grab thatlistener's interest, it's to get
(08:13):
to that hook or get to thatpoint pretty quick, because we
have very short attention spans.
I think I do this when I'mlistening to music and releases.
What's the playlist on Spotify?
Aisle9 (08:24):
Release Friday whatever it is Release Friday.
Marc Matthews (08:27):
Yeah, that's it.
Yeah, release Friday.
I don't know what that is, madethat up, but yeah, I mean there
are songs in there and for me,again, this is probably an
indictment of my attention span.
Unless it grabs me pretty quick, I either move on to the next
one, or I zone out and then moveon to the next one, or I zone
out and then it just becomesbackground music for me, uh,
(08:48):
which I don't know.
Again, it's an indictment of myattention span.
But I think also what youmentioned there about the hook,
and I've noticed this when I'vesubmitted songs to submit hub
and playlist curators and I fallfoul of this, where sometimes
the response is the melodic linedoesn't grab me and it's
something I know I need to workon, and so it echoes what you
said there about having thathook, that melodic line, for
(09:09):
example in an instrumental thatreally does grab the listener
yeah, because I mean I rememberhaving that on.
Aisle9 (09:15):
Well, I mean, if I look back on my catalog, I mean it's
like, it's funny, it's like thevery first song I released,
miami nights, which seemed toget you know, I it's definitely
got a good response fromeveryone.
Marc Matthews (09:25):
Very good song.
Aisle9 (09:26):
But it's weird that because I can't write that song
every day of the week, I mean Ijust can't write a song that in
some senses is as hooky or ascatchy I can't.
I don't quite know where thatcame from.
It just sort of happened andcame out.
It was, you know, and it cameout that way and it took a lot
(09:49):
of work actually.
But I think the basis of thesong, which is only a two-chord
song there's nothing specialabout it, but somehow the
ingredients of it were hookyenough.
But then there were certainelements of it that took a lot
of work out, like the kind ofmelody at the beginning.
That wasn't there initially andit was actually my wife, lisa,
(10:13):
who sort of helped come up withthat and she felt like there
needed to be a sort of hook atthe beginning.
She sort of picked up somethingin the track and then suddenly,
you know, know, that wasactually really a good part of
the song, and so it's funny thatsometimes certain parts of the
song you have to work on and getsomething for.
But the actual core of the song,I think, was there from the
(10:36):
word go.
But I still didn't really knowthat it was that like going to
be well received or that good asong until I released it.
So sometimes you have to justgo well, I think this is decent,
but I don't know if people likeit or not, and release it
anyway, and you know, push itanyway, and then you can be
surprised.
I mean, sometimes the tracksthat you don't think are all
(10:59):
that special um, you know sortof tracks that you aren't
entirely sure you're happy with,even like technically or
whatever, get really goodresponses, maybe better
responses than tracks that youthought were brilliant.
So you can't be entirely sure.
I mean, which is one of thejoys of you know writing things
(11:20):
and putting them out, you knowhe's getting the reaction and
it's not always the reactionthat you thought you'd get.
So you know?
Marc Matthews (11:26):
yeah, most definitely.
And I think we are our harshestcritics as well as creatives.
I think in most creativemediums, people as creators,
we're like that.
You're always going to be yourharshest critic and just I think
, just like you say, justrelease it and see and see what
the response is.
And going back to what I saidjust now, I think, like you said
there with Miami Nights, it'sthe case if you just hit your
(11:48):
stride with one particular song,you may find it takes longer to
put it together and then youmight do another one that's
really quick and you thinkactually this might not have
legs, but I'll release it anyway.
And then I've noticed I've hadthis happen and then suddenly it
just takes off, which?
Aisle9 (12:09):
I think you're right, though, that I mean that kind of
grabbing people quickly thing.
That is a really good thing,and they say a lot of
playlisters and people curatorswill just go well, if it hasn't
grabbed me.
I know, when I do my curationit's just like I've got to
listen for like 20 seconds, 30seconds, you know, and if
something's grabbing me at thatpoint then I'm probably gonna
(12:32):
listen a bit further in.
If something's grabbing me atthat point, then I'm probably
gonna listen a bit further inand then I might add it to the
playlist or whatever.
But like, if there's justnothing happening, I might skip
on to see if anything happens.
But you know, it's just likeyeah, yeah, make something,
something compelling happen sortof fairly early on.
Get to to the point, don't justyeah, because our attention
(12:53):
span has probably got withstreaming and everything else
has got shorter and I think aswell, before we move on to the
next.
Marc Matthews (12:59):
The next part of this is for me, and I appreciate
not everyone's willing to dothis, but like I like to just
take risks with what I put in asong, whether it's like found
sounds, sound effects, um, viainstruments themselves, just
take risks to make thingsinteresting.
Obviously you don't want to gotoo crazy.
(13:19):
Well, I suppose you could gocrazy, but I think just sprinkle
those little bits in just tomake it interesting.
I had one song where there's arainforest in it, another one
where there's I mean, it'scliched now but there's like a
telephone and then at the end ofit the telephone starts to
distort and do this otherworldlysort of sound to him.
I was thinking you know what?
I'm just going to put it in andsee what happens and just just
(13:42):
experiment as well.
Aisle9 (13:43):
I think is is key, but again, I guess it depends on the
, on the vibe of the song, sortof not not lose your genre, not
lose the kind of accessibilityof your song, but don't make it
just sound like a copy ofeverything else, yes, yeah, yeah
.
Because why we're just notinterested in just yet another
copy.
Or maybe we are, but to alesser extent, and I think
(14:06):
that's probably true of thegreat songs.
You know, bohemian Rhapsody,like you know, does not sound
like any other song and no A&Rman was that keen to put it out.
So but like I mean, it doesactually grab you as being
interesting from the word go andit takes you on a massive
journey.
And you know, I mean it's sortof excellent in its production,
(14:30):
excellent in the way it's puttogether.
Musical content is fantastic,but it is very different, it is
not like every other song.
Marc Matthews (14:39):
It was very different the day.
Aisle9 (14:41):
So, yeah, sometimes being different is a very good
thing, yeah.
Marc Matthews (14:46):
I think this segues nicely onto the next part
, which is should youcollaborate with a producer to
unlock the song's potential?
And I think the reason I say itsegues quite nicely is having
that external set of ears orthat possibly objective
viewpoint can also help you toidentify if you are going to
experiment, maybe to help pointyou in the right direction.
(15:08):
However, I appreciate workingwith a producer finances
involved.
It's not open to everyone, butI think there are other ways
that you can sort of have thatproducer-esque role in your
production, whether that's sortof having a group of producers,
(15:28):
artists that you can lean on andthen, in turn, they lean on you
as well.
You share a song.
I know we do this share songsback and forth for feedback and
whatnot.
So, although I appreciateproducers, there's going to be a
financial outlay.
There are other ways that youcan get feedback on your music
and your creations other than aproducer, and at some point I'm
(15:50):
sure there will be an AI.
Would there be an AI producer?
Would I?
trust it Not entirely sure,maybe in the future, but that's
my.
I mean, I'm a huge advocate ofjust getting a second set of
ears, or a fresh set of ears, tolisten to a production, a mix
for their feedback, becausethey're going to hear things
(16:11):
that you won't hear and, at thesame time, if they're listening
to it, i're going to hear thingsthat you won't hear and, at the
same time, if they're listeningto it, I was going to say blind
.
Then blind ears, whatever it is, they might not hear the
problems that you're hearing,which I have found often.
You know, specifically like wedo, we get hung up on snares and
kick drums and it turns outthat's not the issue at all,
(16:31):
it's the bass or something alongthose lines.
Aisle9 (16:34):
so, yeah, I don't know what are your thoughts on the
whole role of the producer,let's say, for, like, indie
artists and artists who maybedon't have that the finances to
collaborate with an expensiveproducer yeah, oh well, I was
gonna say I mean, I think Idefinitely think for, uh, for
(16:55):
some artists like I mean, I Ifound a lot of singer,
songwriters who, who I wouldclass them as that that they
maybe the production side of itand their skills in the
production field it's not theirthing, that they find it doesn't
come naturally.
Some people are not technical.
It doesn't come naturally.
Yet they sit down with a guitarand they'll, they'll, you know,
(17:17):
piano and write somethingreally good song, wise, um, or
or something that's sort of gotthe bones of being really good,
but they don't know how toarrange it, they don't know how
to sort of.
You know, and it can be really,really useful to sit down with
a producer, um, not just anengineer, but a producer,
someone who can really help youwith the writing of the song,
(17:37):
help you with the organisationof it and putting it together
from a sound point of view.
So it definitely can be good.
And not everyone is gifted atthat sort of thing and sometimes
knowing your limits is actuallythe way to really make your
music better.
But there is an incrediblewealth of resources isn't there
(18:00):
for all of us now out there andvery cheaply or even for free?
And there are a lot of otherfellow artists who are, you know
, trying to do the indieproducer thing, who would like
to be supported by you andsupport you in return.
So, yeah, I do think thosecommunities of artists are
(18:21):
phenomenal for this.
I mean, I, I have a, you know,the synthwave fam, which is my
sort of chat group on instagram,which has been doing all kinds
of things for years now, and, um, it's a really great resource
for all of the members of it.
And, um, you know, wedefinitely share a lot about
what we do and, you know, we getfeedback from everyone.
(18:44):
Um and uh, you know, sometimesit's just like easier to send it
to.
Just, you start to realize, oh,I find it useful when you know
these people send me feedbackand I don't find it so helpful
talking to these people, becausenot everyone maybe is on the
same wavelength or you findthere.
So, like I know I send you stuffand like we, we sort of do that
(19:06):
because I think we find eachother's feedback helpful, um,
and sometimes there are sometime where you know you're
talking to someone and thefeedback you have to.
Marc Matthews (19:16):
I suppose you just have to sort of be cautious
, because not all feedback is ishelpful but, like you know, but
it is is fantastic thing to doand I do it myself yeah, most
definitely, and I'm glad youmentioned there about not all
feedback can be useful sometimesand I think it's important,
like you say, to know that ifyou've got feedback you don't
(19:39):
necessarily always have toaction it.
It is feedback and it is anopinion and it's a viewpoint.
But generally I would say Iguess, like if multiple people
that you trust and I guess youcan curate your own feedback
circle, as it were, and have no,you know, you've got people.
Okay, I'm having issues withthe mix.
(20:00):
So I know these people, these,these people here who are
established, they're wellrevered in in mixing, I can send
it to them.
Or maybe I'm having a problemwith this arrangement and the
songwriting element.
I know these, these guys arereally good at songwriting and
and actually arranging, so I'llsend it to them for feedback and
and just curate this, thisreally supportive network, and
(20:22):
do it that way.
But at the same time, folks, ifyou do do that, don't expect
feedback like, like straightaway.
Aisle9 (20:30):
Everyone's very busy, so uh it's not gonna be a case
reminds me I've got to give yousome feedback on something I
still haven't given it to you.
Yeah, I think, I think.
Marc Matthews (20:38):
I think that makes release the track now I
was gonna do that mix today butI got waylaid with recording a
podcast episode, so um we do getbusy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah 100 man andI've listened to that mix now
and I've made notes.
But yeah, that is that is true,but yeah, that is testament to
it.
Folks, sometimes you might notget that feedback straight away
(21:01):
it does happen, but know yourlimits.
I like what you said thereabout knowing your limits.
You can't be the master ofeverything, I think.
No, you've got to know when it'stime to outsource, yeah, and I,
when it's time to outsource,yeah, and I think that's just
across the board where, ifthat's like promotion or yeah,
just anything along those lineswith regards to your music and
(21:21):
your creativity, you like, ifyou try and do everything, I
suppose you could, you can doeverything, but sometimes not
everyone looks good in a tracksuit dancing yeah exactly,
exactly, yeah, uh, not, that'stotally throwing me off.
Now you can't, you can't doeverything, but I suppose you
can, or, like you, either investin outsourcing or you invest in
(21:46):
yourself to learn thatparticular area and there's
plenty, plenty of uh resourcesout there for you to learn a
particular.
But do you due diligence, doyour research.
If you're going to invest in acourse or something like that,
look at the reviews and alsochat with people who have done
it and, completely, that's areally good idea.
Yeah, yeah, always do that, nomatter what, even outside of
(22:08):
music.
I find it's like I've beenlooking at roofers lately, um,
to fix a chimney of mine, and uh, yes, totally off a bit of a
tangent, but I've been lookingat reviews and also talking to
neighbors who have used them aspart of my due diligence process
yeah, it's the same with mixingor mastering or engineering or
(22:28):
production.
Aisle9 (22:28):
Yeah, you're right.
Yeah, it's very good idea to dothat.
Um, yeah, you've got it.
I think as well, like, when itcomes to those sorts of things,
it's not just getting someonewho's technical, it's figuring
someone who you find you cancommunicate with well, who
communicates well with you andwho gets you, gets what your
(22:54):
music is about and gets whereyou're coming from and what
you're trying to achieve,because not everybody gets
everything.
You know, and the it's a bigpart of being a producer is, I
mean, I actually I years ago Iused to do, um, all kinds of
different bands, live bands andone.
One sort of stuff I did in thestudio.
(23:14):
Quite a bit was sort of a lot ofmetal bands would come in, but
not that I don't love some metal, because I do, but I just
didn't really click that wellwith producing that genre.
I mean I could do a reasonablejob of it because I knew all the
stuff, all the engineering, allthe mixing, you know, I know it
(23:36):
from a technical point of view,but the actual sound and honing
the sound that those guys want,I needed to really be, I think,
more in that genre myself, morelistening to it, constantly,
more aware of all of it, and soI actually found that I just
thought it was not my best genreto work in and I would often,
almost kind of you know, holdback from sort of taking on
(24:00):
those projects because I didn'tthink I was going to do the best
job for the client.
So you know you do want to findsomebody who really knows what
you're about and says, yeah, Iget that and I can, I can really
make this work and here'sexamples of it, and you know
that kind of thing.
Marc Matthews (24:16):
Yeah, definitely, I think if you are going to
outsource, like you say there,it's to have that conversation
up front and I think prettyquickly when you're chatting to
someone, even before you'vespoken about the project itself,
you'll be able to get an ideaof whether or not is this a
person I can work with.
Can I talk to this person Justin that initial sort of hi, how
(24:36):
are you, how was your day?
Whatever it is, when you firstmeet them you'll get an idea of
whether or not it's kind of likea not a job interview.
But I guess if you, in a way,you know pretty quick if you're
going to hire someone or not,you know, based on that initial
interaction, a lot is done inthat initial hello and that
greeting.
So, yeah, most definitely youneed to have that rapport with
(25:01):
the person you're working with,most definitely.
So the final part here is thisis quite a tricky one and I
don't know if there's adefinitive answer to this.
But when is a song trulyfinished?
Is a song ever truly finished?
Is the question?
That is the question Is a songever truly finished?
(25:22):
So, does it serve its purposeand vision?
Have you pushed it as far asyou can alone, does it connect
emotionally with the listeners?
Now, this is an interesting onebecause I have personally, from
my own production perspective, Inow employ I give myself a
timeframe.
I'm trying to hit a cadence ofreleases, so I give myself a
(25:43):
timeframe with which I'm goingto work within and then so long.
Obviously, if it's an absolutedog, then I'm not going to
release it and it's probably notgoing to see the light of day.
But if it gets to a certainpoint in my cadence of releasing
, my schedule and I'm thinkingyou know what this is of
releasable quality, that's thenwhen I start going through the
process of okay, well, I'm goingto mix it and then master it
(26:04):
and I'm going to get it uploadedfor release and my thought
process goes.
Thought process goes back towhat we're discussing earlier is
, if I continue with thiscadence and exercising this
creative muscle, not every songis going to be a banger, but at
some point in theory, the lawsof probability, hopefully one of
those songs will rise to thetop, and that's my thought
process and that's what I'vebeen employing lately.
(26:25):
So in a year's time, uh, whenwe get back together, I might be
totally different and say thatdid not work for me and I'm
going to do something different,but that's what I'm employing
at the moment.
Aisle9 (26:34):
I don't know what your thoughts are yeah, I, I mean,
I'm sort of similar.
I do have a release schedulethese days and try to sort of
keep to the release schedule andum, but yeah, I think you've
got to allow room forinspiration as well and you've
(26:55):
got to allow room to go off at atangent sometimes and, and you
know, sometimes you will startsomething and not really know
you know where it's going andwhether it's going to to work um
and or and and you sort ofcreate something that's like
actually it's funny, like goesto the sea, which I wrote, like
(27:18):
it's got like a sort of weirdnine inch nails piano thing
going on, which was the wholehub of the track, which didn't
really have a lot to do with thegenre and where I was heading
with the whole track.
Initially, um didn't even knowit was called Ghost of the Sea.
But you know, as I was headingto this sort of thing, um and it
didn't seem to make sense butit I just liked something about
(27:39):
that thing I came up with andeventually that idea found a
home and gradually turned intothat track and um, you know it
was quite a process gettingthere.
But so sometimes I think youcan, you can come up with
something and you know thatthat's got a root or a sort of
(28:01):
you know a sort of nugget inthere that is good, and you go
yeah, there's something in this,but you might not be able to
finish it straight away, don'tgive up on it Maybe.
Come back to it and just kindof keep knocking away until
maybe something will appear outof it.
But there are other times whereyou do have to give up on
(28:21):
something and just go.
You know what?
I'm on sort of revision 34 ofthis and it still doesn't really
work for me.
Times where you do have to giveup on something and just go.
You know what I keep.
You know, I'm sort of revision34 of this and it still doesn't
really work for me.
I am going to leave it in thepile but like, uh, yeah, I mean,
and sometimes where you sort ofknow maybe it could have more,
you don't know what that thingis, nothing you try is working,
(28:42):
but overall it sounds like adecent, a decent release and you
just you're going to mix,master it and move on.
So yeah, but don't, don't,don't throw away things, sort of
.
You know you have to like,allow inspiration, you know yes,
what you mentioned there is.
Marc Matthews (28:58):
I think it's really important and it's
something that I employ, and Ithink I took this from an
episode I've recorded a coupleof years back and I have a
folder called WIP, work inProgress, and in there I've got
all.
I've got about six or sevensongs in various stages, with
numbers at the beginning, andevery now and again, when I
finish a song and release it,I'll go back to that Work in
(29:20):
Progress folder and each one ofthem has a bounce a.
I'll go back to that work inprogress folder and each one of
them has a bounce, a renderbounce of an MP3 of that track,
and then I'll listen to that andthen I might reorder it,
because at the time when Icreated it I might be like you
say, I might think I'm not sure,but I don't delete it.
I then go back and listen to itevery time and then I reorder
them depending on okay, well,I'm going to tackle this one
next, or I'm getting the vibe ofthis now and that's worked
(29:43):
really well for me and I thenhave another folder which is
kind of like a backlog folder,and then, if I really do think
this one really does need to goback on the shelf.
I then stick that into thisbacklog folder I've got, which
has probably got about 15projects in, and I do the same
again in there, got numbers onthem or so, to go through it and
then reorder it.
(30:03):
But what I find in doing that isI'm not, I'm, I've the way I,
the way I think of it is like Icreated that for a reason.
I must have had some sort ofinspiration at the time.
So I'm not gonna, I'm not gonnabin it, but I'm gonna put it in
either the backlog or the workin progress folder and then I'll
revisit them every time andjust reorder them depending on
how I'm feeling.
So I'm going through this housephase at the moment.
(30:25):
So I'm finding all thoseparticular projects are rising
to the top in terms of numbersand I'm just ticking them off,
uh, one by one Cause your housemoving, that you're going, you
know what it might well be.
It might well be like this.
This whole process Noweverything is revolving around
houses, fucking roofs gettingdone, chimneys on the piss, all
this sort of stuff.
So I could yeah, I could do awhole episode moaning about the
(30:49):
whole the conveyancing processin the uk absolute shit show.
Um, but yeah, go back that.
That, yeah, so it just echoeswhat I was saying, what you were
saying there about, like, don'tbin them and then revisit them.
Um, because in my head I'mthinking, well, I must have done
it for a reason.
Uh, yeah, you know, must bethere for a reason, but I think
I think this, this is great.
Uh, this is our thirdinstallment of this format.
(31:12):
I think it's a brilliant format.
Folks, if you like michael wantto submit a question?
So that was a great question,michael.
By the way, I know a lot ofartists and producers are
feeling the same way, sohopefully there was some nugget
of information in there you cantake away.
If you want to submit aquestion and get it featured on
the podcast, like today, hitthat speak pipe link.
Record your question, remember?
Hey, mark and Tim, it's blah,blah, blah.
(31:35):
This is my question.
Submit that.
Alternatively, just DM me onInstagram.
There's a link in the episodeshow notes notes.
Or you can email me, uh, mark,at synth music masteringcom and
email me with a question andwe'll get it featured.
Um tim, it's beena pleasureabsolute pleasure as always.
Aisle9 (31:52):
Yeah, always a pleasure, yeah, indeed and um.
Marc Matthews (31:55):
We'll reconvene in a month, in a month's time,
and do it all again, hopefullywe're going to.
Aisle9 (32:00):
we're going to bristol for beer and um before then,
yeah, we are.
Marc Matthews (32:05):
That's next weekend, isn't it?
Yeah, hopefully it might bemore than just me and you
Apparently it might In thenicest possible way.
Yeah, but cheers, mate, I'llcatch up with you soon.
But when is a song truly finished?
Is a song ever truly finished?
Is the question.
You're listening to the Insidethe Mix podcast with your host,
mark Matthews.
Welcome to Inside the Mix, yourgo-to podcast for music
creation and production.
Whether you're crafting yourfirst track or refining your
(00:20):
mixing skills, join me each weekfor expert interviews,
practical tutorials and insightsto help you level up your music
and smash it in the musicindustry.
Let's dive in.
Hey folks, welcome to Insidethe Mix.
In this episode we're divinginto another.
Ask Me Anything.
(00:41):
I don't know if that's going tobe the actual title of this
going forward, but I've just putit here in the notes Session,
where myself and my co-host hereR9, tim Benson, will be
answering not asking youquestions answering your
questions.
How are you, tim?
How are things?
Aisle9 (00:57):
Yeah, not too bad thanks .
Yeah, yeah, a bit tired, butI'm all right.
Yeah, yeah, good, we werediscussing off air the fact that
, um, it is wet and windy, andI'm fairly certain it was the
last time we spoke as well, yeah, it always seems to be the way
in the southwest yeah, Iliterally, if you could hear it
outside, it sounds like one ofthose movies where someone's
(01:17):
lashed to the mast and, like youknow, it's just like the the
wind and the rain keep pouringover.
Marc Matthews (01:24):
Yeah, yeah, it's really buffeted as we say yeah,
yeah, indeed.
So this is another one of theseepisodes whereby we're
answering your question orquestions Before we dive in.
If you do have a question, we'dlove to hear from you.
Click the SpeakPipe link in theepisode description to submit
your question, share your socialmedia handle or website and get
(01:46):
featured on the podcast.
All you need to do is click onthat link.
You don't need a Speakpipeaccount, you don't need any
particular setup.
It's just like sending an audiomessage and just say hey, it's
whatever your artist name is.
My question for Mark and Tim isyou can find me at XYZ and then
you get featured on the podcast.
Plus, one lucky question willwin a coffee voucher on me.
(02:09):
I say coffee because I likecoffee, and if you don't like
the coffee, you can just give itto someone else.
If you want to know what thissounds like in practice, check
out episode 175 of the podcast.
So, moving on to this actualepisode, this month's question
comes from podcast listenermichael, and it's, uh, the one
(02:31):
thing a lot of songwriters,artists and producers can relate
to, and here's his question.
So this is an instance wherebyhe actually emailed me, so you
can email me the question aswell.
The uh.
The link to do that, or rather,you can DM me.
You can click on the Instagramlink in the episode description.
So his question is this Ifinished a song, but it feels
just good rather than trulycompelling.
(02:52):
I want to create music thattakes listeners on a journey
they enjoy, rather than one theysimply tolerate, with a few
interesting moments.
I really like that description.
Do you have any advice on how tomake songs more engaging?
Should I stop pushing to finishsongs alone and instead
collaborate with a producer whocan bring out the full potential
(03:14):
of the song?
So it's a fantastic question,michael.
Many of us have been in thisposition whereby a song feels
technically finished I have manytimes but lacks that special
spark.
That's something to make itinteresting.
So today we're going to unpackwhy some songs feel just good
instead of great, the role ofcollaboration in unlocking a
song's potential, and when torefine versus when to let go.
(03:38):
So let's dive in with this.
So the first topic ofconversation I thought would be
good why do some songs feeluninspired even though they're
finished?
So is it a melodic issue?
Is it a production issue?
Is it an emotional connection?
Is it artistic vision.
So I've spoken a lot to beginwith, so I'll throw this over to
you, tim, what are yourthoughts?
Aisle9 (04:00):
I was just trying to unpick this one because I think
in one sense you can get to thatpoint, can't you, where you've
got everything finished and youfeel like it's reasonably well
produced and you can't findanything more to add or take
away to make the song soundbetter.
(04:20):
But it just may not be yourgreatest song, it may lack some
sort of thing, and sometimes Iwonder whether we sort of will
get a song like that and we knowit's good.
But we, we are missing thatspark and I don't know whether
you can always find and add thatI sometimes you can always find
(04:43):
and add that I, I sometimes youcan.
But sometimes you're better tomove on and write another song,
write another piece of music,because sometimes I think it
just happens.
It literally, it happens thatall the ingredients come
together, right, um, youremotions are right, your, you,
you.
You've got something thatyou're trying to communicate in
(05:05):
the track and you've kind ofhooked on to that.
You know all the production hascome together and it works.
I mean, I don't know that youcan walk in the studio and write
stairway to heaven, or you know, every day you can't just write
an absolute classic song.
There isn't a formula for it.
So I would put that out there.
That I mean that doesn't meanthat this question isn't valid.
(05:27):
But, like you know, I thinksometimes maybe retreat and and
sort of going well, acceptingthat not everything is great,
that you write is important, andsort of going well, I'll live
to fight, another day I'll writetrack and maybe the next track
will be a classic.
But then I mean at the same time, yeah, I think there are things
(05:49):
that you can do to your trackto make it more engaging, to
perhaps add that special,something that really hooks
people in, and I think hook isprobably the biggest word there.
It's like people love thingsthat are hooky, that they
remember, that they, you know,they don't just go oh, that was
(06:10):
nice, and then there's nothingsticky in their heads.
So I think vocal melody or, um,you know, if it's instrumental,
instrumental hook is, yeah,that is is, you know, I mean
nobody really remembers thetrack because the drum groove
was incredible.
If it doesn't have a great, youknow, melodic hook or vocal
(06:34):
yeah you know.
So that is important.
Marc Matthews (06:38):
Or lyrical hook as well, maybe yeah, yeah, I
would agree with that.
And just going back to what yousaid there about with regards
to the song and not every songis going to be Stairway, is it?
Ultimately?
I think there's a quote by EdSheeran.
I could be paraphrasing hereand I might be totally making
this up again, like I did lasttime.
Well, I did make the last oneup about Copland and his hi-hat.
Aisle9 (06:59):
I did make that up.
Marc Matthews (07:00):
No, no, it was reported that that was true.
Aisle9 (07:02):
That was true, yeah, yeah, it was Carl.
He was flown in, wasn't he?
Marc Matthews (07:05):
Yeah, neon Highway.
He did back me up on that.
So, ed Sheeran, it wassomething along the lines of
like, you write all these songsand you just write a plethora of
songs and it's only the smallpercent that will actually make
it the cream of the crop thatwill rise to the top.
And you've got to go throughthat of just creating and
(07:27):
writing and exercising thatcreative muscle and then
eventually it will happen.
You'll have that one standoutmoment, I think.
And, um, if I look, I haven'tgot an extensive back catalog,
but I'm certainly, both when Iwas in the metal band and my
solo stuff.
There are songs that stand outabove others where I thought you
know what?
I really hit my stride in thegroove in that one, uh, air
quotes, and.
But there are other songs whereI'm like it's finished, I'm
happy with it, I'm going torelease it, but it doesn't stand
(07:49):
up against the rest of mycatalogue.
But I release it anyway becauseyou've gone through that hard
work and that process of doingit.
You might as well put it outthere.
But another thing you saidthere about the hook, one thing
I like to think of as well, andI don't know if this transcends
all genres because it probablydoesn't is to get to the point
relatively quick as well.
If you want to grab thatlistener's interest, it's to get
(08:13):
to that hook or get to thatpoint pretty quick, because we
have very short attention spans.
I think I do this when I'mlistening to music and releases.
What's the playlist on Spotify?
Aisle9 (08:24):
Release Friday whatever it is Release Friday.
Marc Matthews (08:27):
Yeah, that's it.
Yeah, release Friday.
I don't know what that is, madethat up, but yeah, I mean there
are songs in there and for me,again, this is probably an
indictment of my attention span.
Unless it grabs me pretty quick, I either move on to the next
one, or I zone out and then moveon to the next one, or I zone
out and then it just becomesbackground music for me, uh,
(08:48):
which I don't know.
Again, it's an indictment of myattention span.
But I think also what youmentioned there about the hook,
and I've noticed this when I'vesubmitted songs to submit hub
and playlist curators and I fallfoul of this, where sometimes
the response is the melodic linedoesn't grab me and it's
something I know I need to workon, and so it echoes what you
said there about having thathook, that melodic line, for
(09:09):
example in an instrumental thatreally does grab the listener
yeah, because I mean I rememberhaving that on.
Aisle9 (09:15):
Well, I mean, if I look back on my catalog, I mean it's
like, it's funny, it's like thevery first song I released,
miami nights, which seemed toget you know, I it's definitely
got a good response fromeveryone.
Marc Matthews (09:25):
Very good song.
Aisle9 (09:26):
But it's weird that because I can't write that song
every day of the week, I mean Ijust can't write a song that in
some senses is as hooky or ascatchy I can't.
I don't quite know where thatcame from.
It just sort of happened andcame out.
It was, you know, and it cameout that way and it took a lot
(09:49):
of work actually.
But I think the basis of thesong, which is only a two-chord
song there's nothing specialabout it, but somehow the
ingredients of it were hookyenough.
But then there were certainelements of it that took a lot
of work out, like the kind ofmelody at the beginning.
That wasn't there initially andit was actually my wife, lisa,
(10:13):
who sort of helped come up withthat and she felt like there
needed to be a sort of hook atthe beginning.
She sort of picked up somethingin the track and then suddenly,
you know, know, that wasactually really a good part of
the song, and so it's funny thatsometimes certain parts of the
song you have to work on and getsomething for.
But the actual core of the song,I think, was there from the
(10:36):
word go.
But I still didn't really knowthat it was that like going to
be well received or that good asong until I released it.
So sometimes you have to justgo well, I think this is decent,
but I don't know if people likeit or not, and release it
anyway, and you know, push itanyway, and then you can be
surprised.
I mean, sometimes the tracksthat you don't think are all
(10:59):
that special um, you know sortof tracks that you aren't
entirely sure you're happy with,even like technically or
whatever, get really goodresponses, maybe better
responses than tracks that youthought were brilliant.
So you can't be entirely sure.
I mean, which is one of thejoys of you know writing things
(11:20):
and putting them out, you knowhe's getting the reaction and
it's not always the reactionthat you thought you'd get.
So you know?
Marc Matthews (11:26):
yeah, most definitely.
And I think we are our harshestcritics as well as creatives.
I think in most creativemediums, people as creators,
we're like that.
You're always going to be yourharshest critic and just I think
, just like you say, justrelease it and see and see what
the response is.
And going back to what I saidjust now, I think, like you said
there with Miami Nights, it'sthe case if you just hit your
(11:48):
stride with one particular song,you may find it takes longer to
put it together and then youmight do another one that's
really quick and you thinkactually this might not have
legs, but I'll release it anyway.
And then I've noticed I've hadthis happen and then suddenly it
just takes off, which?
Aisle9 (12:09):
I think you're right, though, that I mean that kind of
grabbing people quickly thing.
That is a really good thing,and they say a lot of
playlisters and people curatorswill just go well, if it hasn't
grabbed me.
I know, when I do my curationit's just like I've got to
listen for like 20 seconds, 30seconds, you know, and if
something's grabbing me at thatpoint then I'm probably gonna
(12:32):
listen a bit further in.
If something's grabbing me atthat point, then I'm probably
gonna listen a bit further inand then I might add it to the
playlist or whatever.
But like, if there's justnothing happening, I might skip
on to see if anything happens.
But you know, it's just likeyeah, yeah, make something,
something compelling happen sortof fairly early on.
Get to to the point, don't justyeah, because our attention
(12:53):
span has probably got withstreaming and everything else
has got shorter and I think aswell, before we move on to the
next.
Marc Matthews (12:59):
The next part of this is for me, and I appreciate
not everyone's willing to dothis, but like I like to just
take risks with what I put in asong, whether it's like found
sounds, sound effects, um, viainstruments themselves, just
take risks to make thingsinteresting.
Obviously you don't want to gotoo crazy.
(13:19):
Well, I suppose you could gocrazy, but I think just sprinkle
those little bits in just tomake it interesting.
I had one song where there's arainforest in it, another one
where there's I mean, it'scliched now but there's like a
telephone and then at the end ofit the telephone starts to
distort and do this otherworldlysort of sound to him.
I was thinking you know what?
I'm just going to put it in andsee what happens and just just
(13:42):
experiment as well.
Aisle9 (13:43):
I think is is key, but again, I guess it depends on the
, on the vibe of the song, sortof not not lose your genre, not
lose the kind of accessibilityof your song, but don't make it
just sound like a copy ofeverything else, yes, yeah, yeah
.
Because why we're just notinterested in just yet another
copy.
Or maybe we are, but to alesser extent, and I think
(14:06):
that's probably true of thegreat songs.
You know, bohemian Rhapsody,like you know, does not sound
like any other song and no A&Rman was that keen to put it out.
So but like I mean, it doesactually grab you as being
interesting from the word go andit takes you on a massive
journey.
And you know, I mean it's sortof excellent in its production,
(14:30):
excellent in the way it's puttogether.
Musical content is fantastic,but it is very different, it is
not like every other song.
Marc Matthews (14:39):
It was very different the day.
Aisle9 (14:41):
So, yeah, sometimes being different is a very good
thing, yeah.
Marc Matthews (14:46):
I think this segues nicely onto the next part
, which is should youcollaborate with a producer to
unlock the song's potential?
And I think the reason I say itsegues quite nicely is having
that external set of ears orthat possibly objective
viewpoint can also help you toidentify if you are going to
experiment, maybe to help pointyou in the right direction.
(15:08):
However, I appreciate workingwith a producer finances
involved.
It's not open to everyone, butI think there are other ways
that you can sort of have thatproducer-esque role in your
production, whether that's sortof having a group of producers,
(15:28):
artists that you can lean on andthen, in turn, they lean on you
as well.
You share a song.
I know we do this share songsback and forth for feedback and
whatnot.
So, although I appreciateproducers, there's going to be a
financial outlay.
There are other ways that youcan get feedback on your music
and your creations other than aproducer, and at some point I'm
(15:50):
sure there will be an AI.
Would there be an AI producer?
Would I?
trust it Not entirely sure,maybe in the future, but that's
my.
I mean, I'm a huge advocate ofjust getting a second set of
ears, or a fresh set of ears, tolisten to a production, a mix
for their feedback, becausethey're going to hear things
(16:11):
that you won't hear and, at thesame time, if they're listening
to it, i're going to hear thingsthat you won't hear and, at the
same time, if they're listeningto it, I was going to say blind
.
Then blind ears, whatever it is, they might not hear the
problems that you're hearing,which I have found often.
You know, specifically like wedo, we get hung up on snares and
kick drums and it turns outthat's not the issue at all,
(16:31):
it's the bass or something alongthose lines.
Aisle9 (16:34):
so, yeah, I don't know what are your thoughts on the
whole role of the producer,let's say, for, like, indie
artists and artists who maybedon't have that the finances to
collaborate with an expensiveproducer yeah, oh well, I was
gonna say I mean, I think Idefinitely think for, uh, for
(16:55):
some artists like I mean, I Ifound a lot of singer,
songwriters who, who I wouldclass them as that that they
maybe the production side of itand their skills in the
production field it's not theirthing, that they find it doesn't
come naturally.
Some people are not technical.
It doesn't come naturally.
Yet they sit down with a guitarand they'll, they'll, you know,
(17:17):
piano and write somethingreally good song, wise, um, or
or something that's sort of gotthe bones of being really good,
but they don't know how toarrange it, they don't know how
to sort of.
You know, and it can be really,really useful to sit down with
a producer, um, not just anengineer, but a producer,
someone who can really help youwith the writing of the song,
(17:37):
help you with the organisationof it and putting it together
from a sound point of view.
So it definitely can be good.
And not everyone is gifted atthat sort of thing and sometimes
knowing your limits is actuallythe way to really make your
music better.
But there is an incrediblewealth of resources isn't there
(18:00):
for all of us now out there andvery cheaply or even for free?
And there are a lot of otherfellow artists who are, you know
, trying to do the indieproducer thing, who would like
to be supported by you andsupport you in return.
So, yeah, I do think thosecommunities of artists are
(18:21):
phenomenal for this.
I mean, I, I have a, you know,the synthwave fam, which is my
sort of chat group on instagram,which has been doing all kinds
of things for years now, and, um, it's a really great resource
for all of the members of it.
And, um, you know, wedefinitely share a lot about
what we do and, you know, we getfeedback from everyone.
(18:44):
Um and uh, you know, sometimesit's just like easier to send it
to.
Just, you start to realize, oh,I find it useful when you know
these people send me feedbackand I don't find it so helpful
talking to these people, becausenot everyone maybe is on the
same wavelength or you findthere.
So, like I know I send you stuffand like we, we sort of do that
(19:06):
because I think we find eachother's feedback helpful, um,
and sometimes there are sometime where you know you're
talking to someone and thefeedback you have to.
Marc Matthews (19:16):
I suppose you just have to sort of be cautious
, because not all feedback is ishelpful but, like you know, but
it is is fantastic thing to doand I do it myself yeah, most
definitely, and I'm glad youmentioned there about not all
feedback can be useful sometimesand I think it's important,
like you say, to know that ifyou've got feedback you don't
(19:39):
necessarily always have toaction it.
It is feedback and it is anopinion and it's a viewpoint.
But generally I would say Iguess, like if multiple people
that you trust and I guess youcan curate your own feedback
circle, as it were, and have no,you know, you've got people.
Okay, I'm having issues withthe mix.
(20:00):
So I know these people, these,these people here who are
established, they're wellrevered in in mixing, I can send
it to them.
Or maybe I'm having a problemwith this arrangement and the
songwriting element.
I know these, these guys arereally good at songwriting and
and actually arranging, so I'llsend it to them for feedback and
and just curate this, thisreally supportive network, and
(20:22):
do it that way.
But at the same time, folks, ifyou do do that, don't expect
feedback like, like straightaway.
Aisle9 (20:30):
Everyone's very busy, so uh it's not gonna be a case
reminds me I've got to give yousome feedback on something I
still haven't given it to you.
Yeah, I think, I think.
Marc Matthews (20:38):
I think that makes release the track now I
was gonna do that mix today butI got waylaid with recording a
podcast episode, so um we do getbusy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah 100 man andI've listened to that mix now
and I've made notes.
But yeah, that is that is true,but yeah, that is testament to
it.
Folks, sometimes you might notget that feedback straight away
(21:01):
it does happen, but know yourlimits.
I like what you said thereabout knowing your limits.
You can't be the master ofeverything, I think.
No, you've got to know when it'stime to outsource, yeah, and I,
when it's time to outsource,yeah, and I think that's just
across the board where, ifthat's like promotion or yeah,
just anything along those lineswith regards to your music and
(21:21):
your creativity, you like, ifyou try and do everything, I
suppose you could, you can doeverything, but sometimes not
everyone looks good in a tracksuit dancing yeah exactly,
exactly, yeah, uh, not, that'stotally throwing me off.
Now you can't, you can't doeverything, but I suppose you
can, or, like you, either investin outsourcing or you invest in
(21:46):
yourself to learn thatparticular area and there's
plenty, plenty of uh resourcesout there for you to learn a
particular.
But do you due diligence, doyour research.
If you're going to invest in acourse or something like that,
look at the reviews and alsochat with people who have done
it and, completely, that's areally good idea.
Yeah, yeah, always do that, nomatter what, even outside of
(22:08):
music.
I find it's like I've beenlooking at roofers lately, um,
to fix a chimney of mine, and uh, yes, totally off a bit of a
tangent, but I've been lookingat reviews and also talking to
neighbors who have used them aspart of my due diligence process
yeah, it's the same with mixingor mastering or engineering or
(22:28):
production.
Aisle9 (22:28):
Yeah, you're right.
Yeah, it's very good idea to dothat.
Um, yeah, you've got it.
I think as well, like, when itcomes to those sorts of things,
it's not just getting someonewho's technical, it's figuring
someone who you find you cancommunicate with well, who
communicates well with you andwho gets you, gets what your
(22:54):
music is about and gets whereyou're coming from and what
you're trying to achieve,because not everybody gets
everything.
You know, and the it's a bigpart of being a producer is, I
mean, I actually I years ago Iused to do, um, all kinds of
different bands, live bands andone.
One sort of stuff I did in thestudio.
(23:14):
Quite a bit was sort of a lot ofmetal bands would come in, but
not that I don't love some metal, because I do, but I just
didn't really click that wellwith producing that genre.
I mean I could do a reasonablejob of it because I knew all the
stuff, all the engineering, allthe mixing, you know, I know it
(23:36):
from a technical point of view,but the actual sound and honing
the sound that those guys want,I needed to really be, I think,
more in that genre myself, morelistening to it, constantly,
more aware of all of it, and soI actually found that I just
thought it was not my best genreto work in and I would often,
almost kind of you know, holdback from sort of taking on
(24:00):
those projects because I didn'tthink I was going to do the best
job for the client.
So you know you do want to findsomebody who really knows what
you're about and says, yeah, Iget that and I can, I can really
make this work and here'sexamples of it, and you know
that kind of thing.
Marc Matthews (24:16):
Yeah, definitely, I think if you are going to
outsource, like you say there,it's to have that conversation
up front and I think prettyquickly when you're chatting to
someone, even before you'vespoken about the project itself,
you'll be able to get an ideaof whether or not is this a
person I can work with.
Can I talk to this person Justin that initial sort of hi, how
(24:36):
are you, how was your day?
Whatever it is, when you firstmeet them you'll get an idea of
whether or not it's kind of likea not a job interview.
But I guess if you, in a way,you know pretty quick if you're
going to hire someone or not,you know, based on that initial
interaction, a lot is done inthat initial hello and that
greeting.
So, yeah, most definitely youneed to have that rapport with
(25:01):
the person you're working with,most definitely.
So the final part here is thisis quite a tricky one and I
don't know if there's adefinitive answer to this.
But when is a song trulyfinished?
Is a song ever truly finished?
Is the question?
That is the question Is a songever truly finished?
(25:22):
So, does it serve its purposeand vision?
Have you pushed it as far asyou can alone, does it connect
emotionally with the listeners?
Now, this is an interesting onebecause I have personally, from
my own production perspective, Inow employ I give myself a
timeframe.
I'm trying to hit a cadence ofreleases, so I give myself a
(25:43):
timeframe with which I'm goingto work within and then so long.
Obviously, if it's an absolutedog, then I'm not going to
release it and it's probably notgoing to see the light of day.
But if it gets to a certainpoint in my cadence of releasing
, my schedule and I'm thinkingyou know what this is of
releasable quality, that's thenwhen I start going through the
process of okay, well, I'm goingto mix it and then master it
(26:04):
and I'm going to get it uploadedfor release and my thought
process goes.
Thought process goes back towhat we're discussing earlier is
, if I continue with thiscadence and exercising this
creative muscle, not every songis going to be a banger, but at
some point in theory, the lawsof probability, hopefully one of
those songs will rise to thetop, and that's my thought
process and that's what I'vebeen employing lately.
(26:25):
So in a year's time, uh, whenwe get back together, I might be
totally different and say thatdid not work for me and I'm
going to do something different,but that's what I'm employing
at the moment.
Aisle9 (26:34):
I don't know what your thoughts are yeah, I, I mean,
I'm sort of similar.
I do have a release schedulethese days and try to sort of
keep to the release schedule andum, but yeah, I think you've
got to allow room forinspiration as well and you've
(26:55):
got to allow room to go off at atangent sometimes and, and you
know, sometimes you will startsomething and not really know
you know where it's going andwhether it's going to to work um
and or and and you sort ofcreate something that's like
actually it's funny, like goesto the sea, which I wrote, like
(27:18):
it's got like a sort of weirdnine inch nails piano thing
going on, which was the wholehub of the track, which didn't
really have a lot to do with thegenre and where I was heading
with the whole track.
Initially, um didn't even knowit was called Ghost of the Sea.
But you know, as I was headingto this sort of thing, um and it
didn't seem to make sense butit I just liked something about
(27:39):
that thing I came up with andeventually that idea found a
home and gradually turned intothat track and um, you know it
was quite a process gettingthere.
But so sometimes I think youcan, you can come up with
something and you know thatthat's got a root or a sort of
(28:01):
you know a sort of nugget inthere that is good, and you go
yeah, there's something in this,but you might not be able to
finish it straight away, don'tgive up on it Maybe.
Come back to it and just kindof keep knocking away until
maybe something will appear outof it.
But there are other times whereyou do have to give up on
(28:21):
something and just go.
You know what?
I'm on sort of revision 34 ofthis and it still doesn't really
work for me.
Times where you do have to giveup on something and just go.
You know what I keep.
You know, I'm sort of revision34 of this and it still doesn't
really work for me.
I am going to leave it in thepile but like, uh, yeah, I mean,
and sometimes where you sort ofknow maybe it could have more,
you don't know what that thingis, nothing you try is working,
(28:42):
but overall it sounds like adecent, a decent release and you
just you're going to mix,master it and move on.
So yeah, but don't, don't,don't throw away things, sort of
.
You know you have to like,allow inspiration, you know yes,
what you mentioned there is.
Marc Matthews (28:58):
I think it's really important and it's
something that I employ, and Ithink I took this from an
episode I've recorded a coupleof years back and I have a
folder called WIP, work inProgress, and in there I've got
all.
I've got about six or sevensongs in various stages, with
numbers at the beginning, andevery now and again, when I
finish a song and release it,I'll go back to that Work in
(29:20):
Progress folder and each one ofthem has a bounce a.
I'll go back to that work inprogress folder and each one of
them has a bounce, a renderbounce of an MP3 of that track,
and then I'll listen to that andthen I might reorder it,
because at the time when Icreated it I might be like you
say, I might think I'm not sure,but I don't delete it.
I then go back and listen to itevery time and then I reorder
them depending on okay, well,I'm going to tackle this one
next, or I'm getting the vibe ofthis now and that's worked
(29:43):
really well for me and I thenhave another folder which is
kind of like a backlog folder,and then, if I really do think
this one really does need to goback on the shelf.
I then stick that into thisbacklog folder I've got, which
has probably got about 15projects in, and I do the same
again in there, got numbers onthem or so, to go through it and
then reorder it.
(30:03):
But what I find in doing that isI'm not, I'm, I've the way I,
the way I think of it is like Icreated that for a reason.
I must have had some sort ofinspiration at the time.
So I'm not gonna, I'm not gonnabin it, but I'm gonna put it in
either the backlog or the workin progress folder and then I'll
revisit them every time andjust reorder them depending on
how I'm feeling.
So I'm going through this housephase at the moment.
(30:25):
So I'm finding all thoseparticular projects are rising
to the top in terms of numbersand I'm just ticking them off,
uh, one by one Cause your housemoving, that you're going, you
know what it might well be.
It might well be like this.
This whole process Noweverything is revolving around
houses, fucking roofs gettingdone, chimneys on the piss, all
this sort of stuff.
So I could yeah, I could do awhole episode moaning about the
(30:49):
whole the conveyancing processin the uk absolute shit show.
Um, but yeah, go back that.
That, yeah, so it just echoeswhat I was saying, what you were
saying there about, like, don'tbin them and then revisit them.
Um, because in my head I'mthinking, well, I must have done
it for a reason.
Uh, yeah, you know, must bethere for a reason, but I think
I think this, this is great.
Uh, this is our thirdinstallment of this format.
(31:12):
I think it's a brilliant format.
Folks, if you like michael wantto submit a question?
So that was a great question,michael.
By the way, I know a lot ofartists and producers are
feeling the same way, sohopefully there was some nugget
of information in there you cantake away.
If you want to submit aquestion and get it featured on
the podcast, like today, hitthat speak pipe link.
Record your question, remember?
Hey, mark and Tim, it's blah,blah, blah.
(31:35):
This is my question.
Submit that.
Alternatively, just DM me onInstagram.
There's a link in the episodeshow notes notes.
Or you can email me, uh, mark,at synth music masteringcom and
email me with a question andwe'll get it featured.
Um tim, it's beena pleasureabsolute pleasure as always.
Aisle9 (31:52):
Yeah, always a pleasure, yeah, indeed and um.
Marc Matthews (31:55):
We'll reconvene in a month, in a month's time,
and do it all again, hopefullywe're going to.
Aisle9 (32:00):
we're going to bristol for beer and um before then,
yeah, we are.
Marc Matthews (32:05):
That's next weekend, isn't it?
Yeah, hopefully it might bemore than just me and you
Apparently it might In thenicest possible way.
Yeah, but cheers, mate, I'llcatch up with you soon.
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