July 29, 2025 • 42 mins
The music industry is shifting fast—are you ready for it? In this episode, Jesse Kirshbaum returns to Inside the Mix to break down how independent artists can build sustainable music careers in 2025. From strategic content creation to authentic brand deals, Jesse shares how “selling in” (not selling out) can help you monetize without compromising your creativity.
We dive into why follower count no longer dictates brand value, how artists with smaller audiences can still land partnerships, and what platforms reward consistent over perfect content. Jesse also unpacks the surprising return of physical retail spaces and why real-world fan engagement is more valuable than ever.
This episode reveals how to approach non-music brands, align with your values, and stay relevant in a fragmented industry where niche audiences rule. Whether you're just starting or rethinking your strategy, Jesse’s insights from the Beats + Bytes 2025 Halftime Report give you the tools to succeed on your own terms.
Links mentioned in this episode:
Follow Jesse Kirshbaum
Beats & Bytes 2025 Half Time Report
Ways to connect with Marc:
Book your FREE Music Breakthrough Strategy Call
Radio-ready mixes start here - get the FREE weekly tips
Grab exclusive access to BONUS content
Follow Marc's Socials:
Instagram | YouTube | Synth Music Mastering
Thanks for listening!!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Marc Matthews (00:00):
Forget everything you know about music production
.
What if virality shifts andbranding strategies could
completely redefine how artistsbuild careers in 2025?
In this episode, JesseKirschbaum returns.
Jesse Kirshbaum (00:16):
You're listening to the Inside the Mix
podcast with your host, Mark.
Marc Matthews (00:19):
Matthews, welcome to Inside the Mix, your go-to
podcast for music creation andproduction.
Whether you're crafting yourfirst track or refining your
mixing skills, join me each weekfor expert interviews,
practical tutorials and insightsto help you level up your music
and smash it in the musicindustry.
Let's dive in.
(00:40):
Welcome back folks.
Welcome back, or welcome toInside the Mix.
Today I'm joined once again byAmerican entrepreneur, talent
agent, author and CEO of newagency, jesse Kirschbaum.
If you caught episode 141,you'll remember we broke down
why independent artists don'tneed a record label to succeed
(01:00):
and how personal branding is oneof the most powerful tools in
music today modern music.
Jesse, how are you?
And welcome back.
It's been a while 141, so overa year.
I would say yeah.
Jesse Kirshbaum (01:13):
Mark, it's so good to be here.
I'm doing well.
I'm glad to be back, my friend.
We had a lot of fun last timeand there's a lot more to talk
about.
It's a really interesting,exciting time with a lot of
opportunity and a lot ofuncertainty out here.
Marc Matthews (01:30):
Indeed, yeah, we've got some really, really
interesting topics to go throughtoday, so we're taking this
conversation into the future.
So Jesse just released hisBeats and Bytes 2025 Halftime
Report and I'm going to put alink to that in the episode
description because it is a veryimportant read and in this
episode, we're diving deep intothe key trends and strategies
you need to know as an indieartist or producer.
(01:52):
So if you're serious aboutbuilding a sustainable,
future-proof career in music,this episode is packed with the
insights you won't want to miss.
So before we dive into that,though, if you want weekly tips
to make your music playlistworthy, click the link in the
episode description to get myfree tips to level up your music
productions.
No fluff, no rubbish.
Just once a week, I'll send youloads of really interesting
(02:14):
stuff to help you develop yourmusic, including a link to the
Beats and Bytes 2025 halftimereport as well.
So that's enough for mewaffling on as I do at the
beginning of these episodes,jesse, so I thought we'll start
with navigating the changingdigital landscape.
So if we could talk aboutrecent management shakeups and
maybe you could talk a bit aboutshould artists now think like
(02:36):
brands?
Jesse Kirshbaum (02:38):
This has been a year where we're seeing more
and more artists musical chairschanging places.
The golden rule of managementhas always been it's not if
you're going to be fired, butwhen.
So you're always living withthis level of uncertainty.
But now, with people being ableto go direct to the artists
(03:04):
through social media and artistsbeing more comfortable fielding
their own deals andcommunication changing and the
landscape changing in terms ofdynamics of power, in terms of
top players in the space, interms of priorities of artists
in a digital and brand forwardlandscape, a lot of artists have
(03:28):
been changing teams, so we'reseeing a era of management shake
up more than we've seen everbefore, and that is definitely
changing the power landscape andwe're seeing that more and more
in this business.
Indie artists are on the rise asa trend.
(03:49):
Artists are owning more oftheir own masters.
Artists have to reevaluate howthey think, especially if they
want to approach brands, becausein the brand partnership world,
you need to be thinking like abrand and if you're working with
bigger brands, you need to befiguring out how to service them
(04:10):
, almost with agencycapabilities.
It's brands like Oreos and SourPatch Kids and Levi's and the
Gap and so many others Levi'sand the Gap and so many others
Anheuser-Busch, stellar, artoisthese are brands that are big
(04:31):
and have major distribution andare used to agency level service
.
So if an artist is working withthese brands, they just need to
be thinking about thingsdifferently than what they would
have approached a brandpartnership maybe, or a
sponsorship in the past.
(04:52):
The whole market is shiftingand this is also reflected in a
lot of this kind of managementmusical chairs that we're seeing
.
Marc Matthews (05:03):
Interesting.
I like the idea of managementmusical chairs.
Jesse Kirshbaum (05:06):
It's quite an interesting one, so you pick one
up you lose one, when the musicstops, you might be out on the
street and then you know this isa business that loves comebacks
and you know in many ways thecoaches outlive the players and
in many ways you know you couldbe down on your luck in may and
back on top in june.
(05:26):
So just because you lost oneround, uh as an entrepreneur
doesn't mean that you're donefor uh, you could definitely be
back with the next act and takeall the learning she took from
the first one and apply it tothe next one.
I see it all.
Marc Matthews (05:43):
Yeah, you kind of got to be quite resilient.
It's developing that resilience, isn't it?
I think that's just in thecreator, no matter what sort of
creator remit you're, in beingresilient and being able to ride
the ups and downs of it.
An interesting point you madethere about indie artists.
When it comes to brand deals,have you noticed like a trend
(06:04):
with particular genres of musicor maybe genre of indie artist?
Would that be a thing orsubsection of music in
particular that is moreconducive to a brand partnership
, or does it depend on theactual individual themselves.
Jesse Kirshbaum (06:24):
The creator economy, which is really
defining this decade and thisera, has changed the rules when
it comes to artists, influencers, smaller acts, bigger acts, and
how they interchange and howthey market with and deal with
brands.
(06:44):
Brands are now way morecomfortable working with macro
or micro influencers, nanoinfluencers 10,000 people, 500,
1,000 true passionate, engagedfollowing Is enough for a brand
to say that moves the needle forme, as long as it's a selling
(07:05):
product.
So what influencers or creatorshave really figured out is how
to do these type of deals,because that's their only stream
of income.
And I look at musicians and I'mlike they're the ultimate
creators, they're the ultimateinfluencers.
They make music that can travelfaster than the speed of light
(07:30):
and they can connect and theycan be in all of these different
rooms and they tour and theyput out a product that really
touches on the heartstrings andminds of people.
It's a universal language.
Like.
Musicians are so wellpositioned in this creator
economy boom that we're seeingthey just have to be willing to
(07:51):
play ball in regards to theseopportunities that brands are
looking for and are able to makea great living because they are
very focused on tailoring theirwork to brands.
I don't think musicians shoulddo that, because I think it
(08:13):
hurts the integrity of their art, but I do think there's enough
brands out there that believe inthe power of this influencer
world that would want to workwith artists in an endemic,
creative, authentic way, andit's really just about being
able to bridge that gap andknowing what, as an artist, you
(08:35):
stand for and what brands youwant to work with and what
brands you love and why, and Ithink, pretty quickly there is a
marketplace to connect thesebrands on a smaller scale.
You no longer have to just beon MTV or the radio or send 10
million records to be relevantto a brand, because brands are
(08:58):
used to working with smaller butniche targeted partners all the
time in this creator economy.
So it's a big opportunity.
I think it's untapped by a lotof the Indiacs because they're
not necessarily approachingthemselves as traditional or
what's looking like aninfluencer marketplace and
(09:19):
instead they're just kind of,you know, on the fence, and I
don't think they should be onthe fence.
I think a brand co-sign isalmost as big as a remix from
Diplo.
It means that they've arrived.
It means that they're deemedworthy.
They're deemed a vehicle.
It brings new attention.
(09:41):
It brings new marketing energy.
It brings new dollars in theirpocket.
It brings new marketing energy.
It brings new dollars in theirpocket.
It brings new marketing dollarsbehind their product.
It's definitely important forbreaking an artist or even like
the bigger artists, revenue todo these brand partnerships.
It's actually not seen asselling out.
(10:03):
If it's done right it's sellingin and it's almost like a
co-sign.
Marc Matthews (10:10):
I like that it's selling in.
That's a nice soundbite for theepisode.
I do like that and this kind ofechoes.
I think the conversation we hadlast time and I remember asking
the question with regards toapproaching brands and I think,
if I remember rightly becauseit's been a while you mentioned
about when posting to, whencreating content and posting it,
(10:34):
because I do this myself, if Iput something on Instagram, for
example, I'm in the studioworking away and I've got a
coffee there, we have a companycalled Greg's here in the UK
which is where it's like,basically like savory food,
let's say, sausage rolls andthat sort of thing.
It's a very British company,but I'll tag that particular
company when I'm working in thestudio and occasionally they'll
respond or a local supermarket,for example.
(10:57):
And that because thatconversation we had got me
thinking.
Actually I I shouldn't just betargeting maybe the wrong word I
shouldn't just be trying tobuild links with music related
brands, but also brands outsideof the music sphere as well.
Um is.
Does that still stand up today?
I hope, hopefully, what I saidthat does make some sort of
sense yeah, it's actually morethan ever.
Jesse Kirshbaum (11:20):
This is just working with music brands is
kind of helpful.
An endemic brand like fenderthey want to definitely support
artists and that's theiraudience.
But the world is your oasis.
You're bigger than just musicin terms of what you stand for
and what you potentially canreach.
(11:42):
Music is definitely your artand a vehicle and a door opener,
but in a lot of ways, it'sinteresting to know more about
you as an artist, as a producer,as a podcaster, for what you
stand for and what you're aboutand what you connect to.
(12:04):
So I would definitely bereaching out beyond.
The endemic music brands havethe budgets, like the bigger
food chains, the bigger CPGproducts, the bigger alcohol
products or even look, it's notall about budget.
It's also about other placesthat you connect that are less
(12:27):
trafficked by what you do.
You don't want to be in a roomfull of 10,000 musicians all
trying to get the attention of aguitar business.
You want to be in new highwaysand new roads where you stand
out and people appreciate yourvalue, but see you for what you
(12:47):
can do with them instead of injust a sea of a lot of other
concentrated competition.
Think differently, think out ofthe box.
Think new frontiers, but thinkorganically.
What do you resonate with?
If you love this place,gregory's, and you've got a
great idea for them and you'rethere all the time, I would try
(13:11):
my luck on connecting with them,on a jingle, on a project, on a
promotion, on an in-store, on aperformance, on a social piece
of content.
There's so many ways thatmusicians can add value to a
brand.
That could be interesting.
And again, it's a sales game.
(13:32):
It's a numbers game.
You're going to have to kiss alot of frogs till you find your
prince.
You're going to, you know,knock on a thousand doors, maybe
have a hundred interested,maybe get 10 offers, maybe close
one, but still that is.
As you build out aninfrastructure, more and more
(13:54):
brands will start to see youbecome safe.
With you, it becomes easier todo these partnerships.
So it's definitely a process ofsales and a lot of rejection.
But anybody that's playing thegame on a high level knows it's
not about what didn't happen,it's about what does happen.
And you know what's that famousWayne Gretzky quote I miss 100%
(14:22):
of the shots I don't take.
Marc Matthews (14:24):
Yeah, I do vaguely remember that quote
actually.
Yeah, audience, if you're a UKlistener, wayne Gretzky is a
very famous ice hockey player.
I'm correct with that, aren't I?
I think I am, yes.
Yeah, there we go.
He's one of the ice hockeyplayer, but I'm correct with
that, aren't I?
Jesse Kirshbaum (14:37):
I think I am.
Yeah, there we go.
He's one of the most from backin the day Canadian.
Marc Matthews (14:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, indeed, man, yeah.
So I've got a quick questionhere with regards to, let's say,
brand deals.
We've got a brand deal in place, maybe a couple of brand deals
in place Taken from yourhalftime report.
Maybe you could talk a bitabout how affiliate links and
(15:01):
performance-based deals arechanging artist income.
Jesse Kirshbaum (15:23):
Yeah, something new that really got a lot that
then they could give a highlevel percentage and if you do
buy you'll take a nice affiliatelink percentage on whatever you
sell.
So it's a little bit more of akill what you eat mentality.
But brands like it because it'ssafer money and it's guaranteed
(15:46):
sales and it's a way to get inbusiness with brands and it's a
way to kind of really test themarket and show and prove.
So there's definitely somehesitation to it because you got
to kind of be willing to divein.
But brands are willing to makethat bet more and more on a
percentage of sales and so we'reseeing more influencers and
(16:10):
creators taking a royalty,getting an affiliate payout on
their fan base or products thatthey're able to sell through
their posting.
Marc Matthews (16:24):
Yeah, with regards to sort of affiliate
links, because obviously ifyou're posting on social media
you do need to reference thelinks, etc.
Have you got any advice on sortof like striking a happy
balance between promoting yourown music as well as sort of
affiliate links?
Because obviously we've gotthese brand, you've got a brand
deal in place.
You want to be promoting thatbut at the same time I guess you
(16:46):
want to be promoting your ownmusic and remaining authentic at
the same time.
That makes sense.
What sort of approach would bebest for that?
Listen to your audience.
Jesse Kirshbaum (16:57):
Hear what your audience has to say.
See the comments, see whereyou're getting most traction.
Look at the percentage ofpeople that are checking one
thing out versus another.
I think you've got to be givingyour audience as much value as
possible, so it usually will bethrough your music.
I would be talking about yourmusic.
(17:18):
It's not about just releasingone version of a song anymore.
It's multiple versions.
There's music videos, there'sbehind the scenes, there's in
front of the scenes, there's thelyric video, then there's the
official video.
I think you've got to give a lotof content and context to your
(17:38):
fan base and audience about yourart and really put it out there
and let people understand it.
And, along the way, hopefullyyou're partnering with brands
that aren't shelling necessarilyproducts that isn't going to
help them right.
A good partnership would beproducts that isn't going to
(18:00):
help them right.
A good partnership would be hey, audience of this amazing
artist.
Here's a product that I love.
I really enjoy using.
You know athletic greens in themorning.
I'm a big fan of.
You know Jack Daniels at night,like I'm having a Jack Daniels
listening party.
Why don't you bring a bottleand we can all listen to some
new music tonight on Instagramlive.
(18:22):
You know all of those options.
You just got to be a littlecreative with it.
I wouldn't just be, you know,all of a sudden, a brand board.
You know where you're sellingyour audience, just whatever
comes in.
I think you want to treat yourfeed and your partnerships with
the same level of high touch andcuration as you always have as
(18:45):
you built this audience up.
Marc Matthews (18:47):
Yeah, so it's sort of like what you mentioned.
I love the idea of a JackDaniels listening party, by the
way, but yeah, it sounds great,but it's got to naturally flow
with what it is that you're whatyou do.
It's got to be authentic,hasn't it?
Ultimately?
I think that's what we'regetting down to here, not just a
random post suddenly aboutsomething that is totally left
(19:07):
field of what it is that youusually represent or do.
Jesse Kirshbaum (19:10):
And use your skills to storytell and to
connect the dots and help peopleunderstand why, like on
podcasts, we know that thoselive reads and actually
promoting products that theycare about makes a difference in
selling through.
It's the same situation when itcomes to artists and creators.
(19:31):
Know what products you believein.
Try to work with those, try togive a new story and context to
it.
Don't just copy and paste.
You know, pay for posts.
Don't have your manager, justdo it all the time.
Like, be involved if you wantthis to resonate, because, like
you're saying, authentic.
Yeah, it's got to feel like afit.
(19:56):
It doesn't.
People can smell out just beingsold to and they don't want
that, and brands don't want tobe in that business either.
There's enough brands andenough artists out there to find
fits that at least make senseon all levels, and those are the
(20:16):
best partnerships.
Those make the biggest impactand that's why we're seeing more
and more growth in this spaceis because the marketplace is
ripe for this, especially usingsocial media.
Marc Matthews (20:29):
Indeed, touching on social media and circling
back to something you mentionedin my first line of questioning,
which was about virality andalso about followers numbers,
and that your actual socialmedia account and brands aren't
looking for those.
I suppose they are in a way,but can you talk about
(20:49):
real-world connections now,because in the halftime report
you mentioned that malls areback shopping centres, as we
call them here in the UK.
But why follow account is lessimportant than it used to be now
to brands, because you touchedon it a tiny bit earlier.
But maybe if you could talk alittle bit more about that and
what you mean by the real worldconnection, people are starving
(21:12):
to connect in real life againand people want an experience.
Jesse Kirshbaum (21:17):
There's a little bit of fatigue of online
shopping.
If you're going to go buysomething, you want to be able
to feel it and to touch it.
We see vinyl sales are on the.
We see vinyl sales are on therise.
We see that sales are on therise.
See physical, tangible mediamore and more.
Events, communities in person,even meetings are at a premium
(21:38):
if you can do them in personright now, because we're
exhausted from just looking atour screens all the time.
And malls are seeing thatgrowth.
People are wanting to go in thestores and what the stores are
doing are creating anunderstanding.
They need to create experiencesInstagramable moments, reasons
to be in the store, allexclusive sales, product drops,
(22:06):
fun hangs with other like-mindedpeople in your store's
community.
It's about creating more thanjust a transactional experience.
These stores have an advantagebecause they've got these
physical retail layouts, sopeople want to be there and
(22:26):
stores understand that that'shappening and are more and more
catering to these events andthese live experiences, which is
an exciting thing because, yeah, shopping at Amazon is a great
convenience and it's got itsinnovations and it's a big
opportunity but also the factthat we're going back to stores
(22:49):
and want to try things on andwant to.
You know, shop with friends andyou know lids, the hat stores
making customized hats now thatyou can only get in stores and
patches.
People want that.
People want to use theexpression.
In terms of follower count, it'sless important about how many
followers you have.
(23:10):
It's more important aboutengagement and engagement
percentage ratio how many peopleof your audience are leaned in.
They're coming to see what youhave to say.
They're coming to see what youhave to say.
(23:37):
They're listening to whatyou're talking about.
They're buying or following ordoing what you're asking them to
do.
They're be bought.
They could be for an oldexperience.
They could have been adifferent account.
You could be a different person.
It's less about what you'vedone in the past.
It's really about the contextand creation of what you're
doing right now.
And what's really cool is it'sabout the content.
(23:59):
This world, some of thesealgorithms.
It doesn't even matter how manyfollowers you have.
It just matters how relevantyour content is for the
algorithm to have it take off.
You could have a thousandfollowers.
You could have a hundredfollowers and make an amazing
piece of content on TikTok andhave 10 million views, because
it's not just your followersthat are going to see that.
(24:21):
The For you page and thealgorithm allow it for now, like
the most relevant content toreach the people that are out
there.
So it's more important thanever to be making great content
and your next move has got to beyour best move.
Versus how many followers youhave and what you've done a year
(24:43):
ago to build those followers,you know what you've done a year
ago to build those followers.
Yeah, like on a very surfacelevel scan, you could say, oh,
that person has a lot offollowers, they're a big deal.
But savvy marketers are lookingdeeper and there's a lot more
insights that can be told basedon quality of content and
(25:03):
engagement of audience.
Marc Matthews (25:06):
Indeed With regards to content, would you?
I probably know the answer tothis, but would you say it's
quality over quantity, right,when it comes to putting out
content in general?
Jesse Kirshbaum (25:17):
The social graph is really all about
staying top of mind.
So quality is important, but Iactually think that quality is
less important.
You're never going to do itbetter than the movie studios
and the big production houses,and these creators are winning.
Like live streamers are justraw uncut, and that's the next
(25:41):
big trend is this live streamexperience right from your home,
right from your laptop, rightfrom your phone.
And so this is not aboutquality, it's about connection,
and it's about connection toaudience, and so one of the best
ways to stay top of mind is tostay top of the social graph.
(26:02):
With constant posting Plus,these platforms reward more of a
posting cadence, so you'replaying to an algorithm that
wants you to post more.
So even if you put up anamazing post once a month, it's
not going to get the samealgorithmic lift or relevance
(26:25):
with your audience as three tofour shorter stories or other
pieces of content or cutting upthe content in different ways.
Um, like we talked aboutearlier, that really will be the
way to dominate.
So I think it's actually acombination of both, but if the
world had its way, currentlyit's more about quantity than it
(26:48):
is quality interesting.
Marc Matthews (26:51):
Yeah, yeah, I went like I thought you might.
I thought it was going to gothe other way, but then again I
get what you're saying aboutlike the big studios having the,
the budgets and the teamsbehind them, or the big artists,
let's say, and being able toreally refine and hone in and
create that really sort ofA-star piece of content.
But you've got to work withwhat you have and UGC, I mean, I
(27:13):
do that myself and when I'mputting something out I think
good is good enough with thetools and the facilities that I
have at hand and what wins foryou is consistency and being a
trusted voice.
Jesse Kirshbaum (27:25):
That's there every single week.
You know, week in, week out.
That's what gets people to feellike they're going to continue
to tune in.
Not that if you did oneblockbuster show with Bruce
Springsteen and I don't know howthat changes.
You know, if you've got theOasis interview, it's a big week
for you, but are people goingto care six months from now?
Marc Matthews (27:48):
Yeah.
Jesse Kirshbaum (27:49):
Yeah, you're not consistently doing what
you're doing right now.
You've got our attention, wecan count on you.
You're in our inbox, you're onour podcast feed every single
week, and that is actually soimportant when it comes to
audience and connection yeah,agreed, and it's um.
Marc Matthews (28:10):
Just this year I've been.
I've been releasing more musicof my own, and I know I noticed
that because it's not somethingI've with the podcast.
I've been consistent now forwell, I think it's about five
years, um, and then with thenewsletter as well, but actually
releasing music this year I'vebeen.
I've released musicsporadically over the past
decade or so in various guises,but only this year I've been
like you know what I'm I'm gonnaput the hammer down and I'm
(28:32):
gonna be consistent and try andkeep a cadence of four to six
weeks and I've noticed thedifference.
Um, I've released five now andthe the hockey stick curve in
terms of listenership is is nowtaking effect, which is, which
is amazing, and it's justtestament to what you're saying
there.
It is consistency, consistencyand just showing up.
Basically.
Jesse Kirshbaum (28:52):
It's a big insight for the audience and
it's hard, you know what ittakes every single week, no
missed weeks, to show up likethis.
It's exhausting, but it's whatworks.
It's what works in all facetsof life.
It's almost like compoundingwisdom, compounding audience,
compounding health.
Like the more a little bitevery single day will get you to
(29:15):
a much bigger goal than takingtime off, putting back in you
know, dibble and dabbling in allin for a week, then off for a
month, like people aren't goingto reward that behavior and
you're not going to see growthin.
(29:36):
Like what you just explained.
Like you just gave them the key, which is hard work and
consistency every single day,with passion and honing your
craft.
Congratulations on five yearswith this podcast.
Marc Matthews (29:49):
Thanks very much and a new music coming out.
Jesse Kirshbaum (29:52):
That's exciting .
Marc Matthews (29:54):
It is, it is.
It's five years of the podcasthas gone by like the blink of an
eye.
It is mad, mad how time fliesand in between getting guests
like yourself back on thepodcast because it doesn't feel
like it was episode, becausewe're on episode, this is going
to be episode 205.
And it was episode 141.
So it's over a year ago but itcertainly doesn't seem that long
(30:17):
.
And it is mad how timeprogresses.
But that's also why I thinkaudience listening you need to
like if you're going to dosomething, it's just do it,
because time goes by so quick,right, and if you want to do
something, just start today.
You know, that's my thought andthat's what I did with the
podcast.
I was like I'm not going towait to do loads of research
into, like honing the perfectpodcast and making sure it's
(30:39):
it's absolutely perfect.
When I dropped that firstepisode, I was just like you
know what?
I'm just just gonna invitesomeone on that, I know, have a
chat about some music and thensee what happens.
And it is just compound effect.
Uh, it's just gone on fromthere, which is amazing.
Um, just say, what a way of thetime here.
So there's one question ortopic I just want to cover
before we wrap things up.
(31:00):
And in the in the halftimereport you mentioned there's no
single music industry, so maybeyou could just touch on that a
bit.
What do you mean when you saythere's no longer one music
industry?
Jesse Kirshbaum (31:10):
It's a world of niches.
Now, even the top artists onthe pop charts, most people do
not know who they are or theirsong or their songs in general.
It's really changed where it'sno longer a world where MTV and
radio and record labels definedwho you could listen to and who
(31:33):
you couldn't.
Now everybody's got a voice.
There's all these differentconnection points to audience
and to fans, and it's reallychanged from this kind of
streaming and podcast worldwhere you're not just listening
to a country music station or arap station.
It's really customized andtailored to your taste.
(31:56):
The radar release is going totell you what came out on
Spotify, but based on yourpersonal preferences.
But based on your personalpreferences, the biggest
playlists on Spotify aren't thecountry music playlist or the
rock music playlist.
It's Pollen, which is a feeling.
(32:16):
It's New Music Friday, which isa whole consortium of different
artists and genres.
The era of the genre has reallydisappeared.
It's no longer about that.
It's now really about music andcommunity and experience and
(32:39):
vibe.
What do you want to feel?
If you want to feel good,there's a mix for that and that
mix is going to play you songsthat make you feel good,
depending on the genre.
So it's become a lot harder tofind these kind of water cooler
artists and these water coolermoments, universally beloved
(33:04):
songs.
It's now an industry of somereally might like Fred again and
might be ravenous fans and hecould sell out a show in
Brooklyn in 10 minutes that heannounces.
And some might want to see thenext streaming sensation on
(33:26):
TikTok.
And some might like an artist'smusic but not have any idea
what they look like or soundlike and not be interested in
going to their live show.
It's really like a wholedifferent consortium of artists
and genres and industry.
It's multiple differentbusinesses.
A TikTok artist is differentthan a SoundCloud artist is
(33:50):
different than an artist that'sbig on radio.
So if you look at the chartsand you look at what your
friends are listening to and indifferent regions, what they're
listening to and what yourparents are listening to, what
new music's coming up, it'sreally like a mixed bag and so
(34:10):
it's an opportunity because youcould have a true audience or a
true fan base and really be ableto do a lot with them.
The long tail is alive and inmany ways thriving, but also it
makes it harder to be able towrap your arms around, like what
are the songs of the summer.
I just put out a mix for, like,my favorite songs of the summer
(34:31):
.
It's everyone's got an opinionbut nobody actually does.
It's really hard to define whatis the biggest song this summer
Because there aren't really bigsummer blockbuster music
moments anymore.
It's just a lot of different.
If you went to Glastonbury, youhad this artist.
If you went to Coachella, youloved this artist.
(34:53):
If you watch this movie, youwatch the K-pop demon slaying
Netflix smash.
That's your song of the summer.
If you went to Buena VistaSocial Club on Broadway, that's
your song of the summer.
You went to Buena Vista SocialClub on Broadway.
That's your song of the summer.
It's such a wide-rangingselection of music right now
(35:17):
that there's just no breakout.
Everybody agrees pop culturemoment, except for the Super
Bowl, right?
That's one of those things thatis like become bigger than ever
and the stage is bigger thanever and everybody's watching
that 10 minute performance andit ripples and it helped
(35:37):
Kendrick Lamar, you know, becomeone of the biggest artists on
the planet.
That you know.
Five-year-olds to 80-year-oldsall now know who he is and his
music because he played that onthat stage.
But besides that, it's reallyhard to define what is
(36:00):
mainstream popular music rightnow, because we're all living in
our own kind of curated bubblesyeah, that's exactly what I've
got written down in my noteshere curated, and that's how I
feel it is because I do that.
Marc Matthews (36:14):
I, I do it unknowingly, every friday.
I always listen to releaseradar and I just it's just a
part of my life now and thatthat curation, um, where it's
automatically done for mewithout me, and it's the same
when I go on youtube or anyother well, any other platform
like that, and I know as soon asI open it up, all the content's
been curated for me.
But it's going to be differentto, for example, my fiance.
(36:36):
What's curated for her onyoutube is entirely different to
what's curated for me, uh, andand the same with spotify as
well, which is I can see whenyou, when you describe it as
fragmented markets, and how itreally is, um, as you say, apart
from that, that super bowlmoment, um, which is it's
amazing how that transcends,isn't it?
And how?
Um?
(36:56):
Going back to my fiance again,he's got, she's got no interest
whatsoever in american football,but she's aware of the halftime
show and it's just, it'samazing and how huge, huge that
is.
Just that halftime, those 10minutes, like you say, it's
absolutely incredible, powerfulstuff, man.
Jesse, big thanks again forreturning and talking this
(37:20):
through with me today, becauseit's incredibly interesting
stuff and I always come awaywith new sort of tactics that I
want to employ myself when itcomes to promoting music my own
music and the podcast as welland helping other people out.
So I think it's amazing.
So I think, before we wrapthings up, um, maybe if you
could just chat a little bitabout the new agency, about your
newsletter, where the audiencecould find you online as well
(37:43):
I'd be be happy to.
Jesse Kirshbaum (37:44):
So I live at the intersection of
entertainment technology andbrand partnerships.
Really, what we do is helpbrands make meaningful
connections to their consumersby leveraging the power of music
.
So that could be a originalsong for a brand, that could be
an artist as the face of acampaign, that could be a
(38:06):
content partnership where anartist is doing a commercial of
some sort for an artist, for abrand.
We really are storytellers thathelp create pop culture moments
and every week I chroniclewhat's happening in the space.
It's kind of my love letter tothe music business.
It's a newsletter called Beatsand Bytes and it's got a pretty
(38:29):
large influential following andbasically I'm telling you
everything that I'm seeingthat's happening in the music
and brand space, with my own POV, different projects or
priorities that I'm working on.
And it's a curation where everyweek I'll scour a thousand
articles, read a hundred andbasically select 10 that I share
(38:53):
in my newsletter.
And we obviously love yourpodcast.
We love what you're doing, weknow you're a true music head,
coming from a really differentmarket in the UK and really care
about your craft and justexcited to be able to amplify
what you're doing.
(39:14):
And so when there's relevantconversations.
We have a podcast section wherewe'll highlight one podcast
each week that we listen to, andfor me I'm just like in the
trend gym I'm constantly seeingwhat's out there, I'm constantly
being tapped to kind ofchronicle what's going on, and
then we're creating our ownmoments all the time with
(39:34):
different campaigns and projects.
This week in July, when thiscomes out, I'll be having two
big events in New York one withthe wrestling world and
wrestling and hip hop and brands, and another is like an
exclusive on stage, uh, broadwayexperience where you know
(39:55):
you'll see your favoriteBroadway star, uh, you know, and
have dinner with them.
Uh, while, uh, on the stage ofof, of the one of the biggest
hits in the history of the genreof theater.
So those are the type of things,whereas on top of that, we're
working with constantly brands,ideating around different
campaigns, projects, things tothink about, artists they should
(40:18):
be aligning with tours, theyshould be sponsoring festivals
they should be showing up at.
That's what we do all day long.
We just try to figure out waysto support artists and the music
business through the proud, thepower of brand marketing
amazing, exciting stuff, man.
Marc Matthews (40:39):
I love those two events that you got planned.
They sound incrediblyinteresting and, at the same
time, incredibly diverse as well.
It must be exciting.
Every day is going to be foryou, I can imagine it's
extremely different to the daybefore, which I think is a very
good way to sort of operatewithin, just if that's your
career.
You know, something new anddifferent and exciting every day
(41:02):
is what we all strive for, Ithink.
But, jesse, again, it's been anabsolute pleasure having you
back on the podcast today.
Everything you mentioned thereI'll put notes in the episode
description.
Rather, I'll put links in theepisode description so the
audience can go away.
Sign up for the newsletter,check out the new agency and
what you're up to as well, checkout those two events.
And again, a huge, huge thankyou.
(41:22):
Audience listening as well.
If you do want to learn moreabout what Jesse's up to,
obviously click the link in theepisode description, but also
sign up for the newsletter thatI send out once a week as well,
as I'll be putting links to thehalftime report in there.
Also.
Click the link in the episodedescription and you can find
that too.
Basically, you can just findeverything in the episode
description head there, andyou'll find it all.
(41:42):
The episode description headthere, and you'll find it all.
Jesse Kirshbaum (41:46):
Uh, jesse, again a big thank you and I will
catch up with you soon, mark.
It was a pleasure, great seeingyou.
Marc Matthews (41:48):
Have a wonderful rest of your summer and let's do
it again soon indeed, untilnext time, folks stay inspired,
keep creating and don't beafraid to experiment inside the
mix.
Forget everything you know about music production
.
What if virality shifts andbranding strategies could
completely redefine how artistsbuild careers in 2025?
In this episode, JesseKirschbaum returns.
Jesse Kirshbaum (00:16):
You're listening to the Inside the Mix
podcast with your host, Mark.
Marc Matthews (00:19):
Matthews, welcome to Inside the Mix, your go-to
podcast for music creation andproduction.
Whether you're crafting yourfirst track or refining your
mixing skills, join me each weekfor expert interviews,
practical tutorials and insightsto help you level up your music
and smash it in the musicindustry.
Let's dive in.
(00:40):
Welcome back folks.
Welcome back, or welcome toInside the Mix.
Today I'm joined once again byAmerican entrepreneur, talent
agent, author and CEO of newagency, jesse Kirschbaum.
If you caught episode 141,you'll remember we broke down
why independent artists don'tneed a record label to succeed
(01:00):
and how personal branding is oneof the most powerful tools in
music today modern music.
Jesse, how are you?
And welcome back.
It's been a while 141, so overa year.
I would say yeah.
Jesse Kirshbaum (01:13):
Mark, it's so good to be here.
I'm doing well.
I'm glad to be back, my friend.
We had a lot of fun last timeand there's a lot more to talk
about.
It's a really interesting,exciting time with a lot of
opportunity and a lot ofuncertainty out here.
Marc Matthews (01:30):
Indeed, yeah, we've got some really, really
interesting topics to go throughtoday, so we're taking this
conversation into the future.
So Jesse just released hisBeats and Bytes 2025 Halftime
Report and I'm going to put alink to that in the episode
description because it is a veryimportant read and in this
episode, we're diving deep intothe key trends and strategies
you need to know as an indieartist or producer.
(01:52):
So if you're serious aboutbuilding a sustainable,
future-proof career in music,this episode is packed with the
insights you won't want to miss.
So before we dive into that,though, if you want weekly tips
to make your music playlistworthy, click the link in the
episode description to get myfree tips to level up your music
productions.
No fluff, no rubbish.
Just once a week, I'll send youloads of really interesting
(02:14):
stuff to help you develop yourmusic, including a link to the
Beats and Bytes 2025 halftimereport as well.
So that's enough for mewaffling on as I do at the
beginning of these episodes,jesse, so I thought we'll start
with navigating the changingdigital landscape.
So if we could talk aboutrecent management shakeups and
maybe you could talk a bit aboutshould artists now think like
(02:36):
brands?
Jesse Kirshbaum (02:38):
This has been a year where we're seeing more
and more artists musical chairschanging places.
The golden rule of managementhas always been it's not if
you're going to be fired, butwhen.
So you're always living withthis level of uncertainty.
But now, with people being ableto go direct to the artists
(03:04):
through social media and artistsbeing more comfortable fielding
their own deals andcommunication changing and the
landscape changing in terms ofdynamics of power, in terms of
top players in the space, interms of priorities of artists
in a digital and brand forwardlandscape, a lot of artists have
(03:28):
been changing teams, so we'reseeing a era of management shake
up more than we've seen everbefore, and that is definitely
changing the power landscape andwe're seeing that more and more
in this business.
Indie artists are on the rise asa trend.
(03:49):
Artists are owning more oftheir own masters.
Artists have to reevaluate howthey think, especially if they
want to approach brands, becausein the brand partnership world,
you need to be thinking like abrand and if you're working with
bigger brands, you need to befiguring out how to service them
(04:10):
, almost with agencycapabilities.
It's brands like Oreos and SourPatch Kids and Levi's and the
Gap and so many others Levi'sand the Gap and so many others
Anheuser-Busch, stellar, artoisthese are brands that are big
(04:31):
and have major distribution andare used to agency level service
.
So if an artist is working withthese brands, they just need to
be thinking about thingsdifferently than what they would
have approached a brandpartnership maybe, or a
sponsorship in the past.
(04:52):
The whole market is shiftingand this is also reflected in a
lot of this kind of managementmusical chairs that we're seeing
.
Marc Matthews (05:03):
Interesting.
I like the idea of managementmusical chairs.
Jesse Kirshbaum (05:06):
It's quite an interesting one, so you pick one
up you lose one, when the musicstops, you might be out on the
street and then you know this isa business that loves comebacks
and you know in many ways thecoaches outlive the players and
in many ways you know you couldbe down on your luck in may and
back on top in june.
(05:26):
So just because you lost oneround, uh as an entrepreneur
doesn't mean that you're donefor uh, you could definitely be
back with the next act and takeall the learning she took from
the first one and apply it tothe next one.
I see it all.
Marc Matthews (05:43):
Yeah, you kind of got to be quite resilient.
It's developing that resilience, isn't it?
I think that's just in thecreator, no matter what sort of
creator remit you're, in beingresilient and being able to ride
the ups and downs of it.
An interesting point you madethere about indie artists.
When it comes to brand deals,have you noticed like a trend
(06:04):
with particular genres of musicor maybe genre of indie artist?
Would that be a thing orsubsection of music in
particular that is moreconducive to a brand partnership
, or does it depend on theactual individual themselves.
Jesse Kirshbaum (06:24):
The creator economy, which is really
defining this decade and thisera, has changed the rules when
it comes to artists, influencers, smaller acts, bigger acts, and
how they interchange and howthey market with and deal with
brands.
(06:44):
Brands are now way morecomfortable working with macro
or micro influencers, nanoinfluencers 10,000 people, 500,
1,000 true passionate, engagedfollowing Is enough for a brand
to say that moves the needle forme, as long as it's a selling
(07:05):
product.
So what influencers or creatorshave really figured out is how
to do these type of deals,because that's their only stream
of income.
And I look at musicians and I'mlike they're the ultimate
creators, they're the ultimateinfluencers.
They make music that can travelfaster than the speed of light
(07:30):
and they can connect and theycan be in all of these different
rooms and they tour and theyput out a product that really
touches on the heartstrings andminds of people.
It's a universal language.
Like.
Musicians are so wellpositioned in this creator
economy boom that we're seeingthey just have to be willing to
(07:51):
play ball in regards to theseopportunities that brands are
looking for and are able to makea great living because they are
very focused on tailoring theirwork to brands.
I don't think musicians shoulddo that, because I think it
(08:13):
hurts the integrity of their art, but I do think there's enough
brands out there that believe inthe power of this influencer
world that would want to workwith artists in an endemic,
creative, authentic way, andit's really just about being
able to bridge that gap andknowing what, as an artist, you
(08:35):
stand for and what brands youwant to work with and what
brands you love and why, and Ithink, pretty quickly there is a
marketplace to connect thesebrands on a smaller scale.
You no longer have to just beon MTV or the radio or send 10
million records to be relevantto a brand, because brands are
(08:58):
used to working with smaller butniche targeted partners all the
time in this creator economy.
So it's a big opportunity.
I think it's untapped by a lotof the Indiacs because they're
not necessarily approachingthemselves as traditional or
what's looking like aninfluencer marketplace and
(09:19):
instead they're just kind of,you know, on the fence, and I
don't think they should be onthe fence.
I think a brand co-sign isalmost as big as a remix from
Diplo.
It means that they've arrived.
It means that they're deemedworthy.
They're deemed a vehicle.
It brings new attention.
(09:41):
It brings new marketing energy.
It brings new dollars in theirpocket.
It brings new marketing energy.
It brings new dollars in theirpocket.
It brings new marketing dollarsbehind their product.
It's definitely important forbreaking an artist or even like
the bigger artists, revenue todo these brand partnerships.
It's actually not seen asselling out.
(10:03):
If it's done right it's sellingin and it's almost like a
co-sign.
Marc Matthews (10:10):
I like that it's selling in.
That's a nice soundbite for theepisode.
I do like that and this kind ofechoes.
I think the conversation we hadlast time and I remember asking
the question with regards toapproaching brands and I think,
if I remember rightly becauseit's been a while you mentioned
about when posting to, whencreating content and posting it,
(10:34):
because I do this myself, if Iput something on Instagram, for
example, I'm in the studioworking away and I've got a
coffee there, we have a companycalled Greg's here in the UK
which is where it's like,basically like savory food,
let's say, sausage rolls andthat sort of thing.
It's a very British company,but I'll tag that particular
company when I'm working in thestudio and occasionally they'll
respond or a local supermarket,for example.
(10:57):
And that because thatconversation we had got me
thinking.
Actually I I shouldn't just betargeting maybe the wrong word I
shouldn't just be trying tobuild links with music related
brands, but also brands outsideof the music sphere as well.
Um is.
Does that still stand up today?
I hope, hopefully, what I saidthat does make some sort of
sense yeah, it's actually morethan ever.
Jesse Kirshbaum (11:20):
This is just working with music brands is
kind of helpful.
An endemic brand like fenderthey want to definitely support
artists and that's theiraudience.
But the world is your oasis.
You're bigger than just musicin terms of what you stand for
and what you potentially canreach.
(11:42):
Music is definitely your artand a vehicle and a door opener,
but in a lot of ways, it'sinteresting to know more about
you as an artist, as a producer,as a podcaster, for what you
stand for and what you're aboutand what you connect to.
(12:04):
So I would definitely bereaching out beyond.
The endemic music brands havethe budgets, like the bigger
food chains, the bigger CPGproducts, the bigger alcohol
products or even look, it's notall about budget.
It's also about other placesthat you connect that are less
(12:27):
trafficked by what you do.
You don't want to be in a roomfull of 10,000 musicians all
trying to get the attention of aguitar business.
You want to be in new highwaysand new roads where you stand
out and people appreciate yourvalue, but see you for what you
(12:47):
can do with them instead of injust a sea of a lot of other
concentrated competition.
Think differently, think out ofthe box.
Think new frontiers, but thinkorganically.
What do you resonate with?
If you love this place,gregory's, and you've got a
great idea for them and you'rethere all the time, I would try
(13:11):
my luck on connecting with them,on a jingle, on a project, on a
promotion, on an in-store, on aperformance, on a social piece
of content.
There's so many ways thatmusicians can add value to a
brand.
That could be interesting.
And again, it's a sales game.
(13:32):
It's a numbers game.
You're going to have to kiss alot of frogs till you find your
prince.
You're going to, you know,knock on a thousand doors, maybe
have a hundred interested,maybe get 10 offers, maybe close
one, but still that is.
As you build out aninfrastructure, more and more
(13:54):
brands will start to see youbecome safe.
With you, it becomes easier todo these partnerships.
So it's definitely a process ofsales and a lot of rejection.
But anybody that's playing thegame on a high level knows it's
not about what didn't happen,it's about what does happen.
And you know what's that famousWayne Gretzky quote I miss 100%
(14:22):
of the shots I don't take.
Marc Matthews (14:24):
Yeah, I do vaguely remember that quote
actually.
Yeah, audience, if you're a UKlistener, wayne Gretzky is a
very famous ice hockey player.
I'm correct with that, aren't I?
I think I am, yes.
Yeah, there we go.
He's one of the ice hockeyplayer, but I'm correct with
that, aren't I?
Jesse Kirshbaum (14:37):
I think I am.
Yeah, there we go.
He's one of the most from backin the day Canadian.
Marc Matthews (14:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, indeed, man, yeah.
So I've got a quick questionhere with regards to, let's say,
brand deals.
We've got a brand deal in place, maybe a couple of brand deals
in place Taken from yourhalftime report.
Maybe you could talk a bitabout how affiliate links and
(15:01):
performance-based deals arechanging artist income.
Jesse Kirshbaum (15:23):
Yeah, something new that really got a lot that
then they could give a highlevel percentage and if you do
buy you'll take a nice affiliatelink percentage on whatever you
sell.
So it's a little bit more of akill what you eat mentality.
But brands like it because it'ssafer money and it's guaranteed
(15:46):
sales and it's a way to get inbusiness with brands and it's a
way to kind of really test themarket and show and prove.
So there's definitely somehesitation to it because you got
to kind of be willing to divein.
But brands are willing to makethat bet more and more on a
percentage of sales and so we'reseeing more influencers and
(16:10):
creators taking a royalty,getting an affiliate payout on
their fan base or products thatthey're able to sell through
their posting.
Marc Matthews (16:24):
Yeah, with regards to sort of affiliate
links, because obviously ifyou're posting on social media
you do need to reference thelinks, etc.
Have you got any advice on sortof like striking a happy
balance between promoting yourown music as well as sort of
affiliate links?
Because obviously we've gotthese brand, you've got a brand
deal in place.
You want to be promoting thatbut at the same time I guess you
(16:46):
want to be promoting your ownmusic and remaining authentic at
the same time.
That makes sense.
What sort of approach would bebest for that?
Listen to your audience.
Jesse Kirshbaum (16:57):
Hear what your audience has to say.
See the comments, see whereyou're getting most traction.
Look at the percentage ofpeople that are checking one
thing out versus another.
I think you've got to be givingyour audience as much value as
possible, so it usually will bethrough your music.
I would be talking about yourmusic.
(17:18):
It's not about just releasingone version of a song anymore.
It's multiple versions.
There's music videos, there'sbehind the scenes, there's in
front of the scenes, there's thelyric video, then there's the
official video.
I think you've got to give a lotof content and context to your
(17:38):
fan base and audience about yourart and really put it out there
and let people understand it.
And, along the way, hopefullyyou're partnering with brands
that aren't shelling necessarilyproducts that isn't going to
help them right.
A good partnership would beproducts that isn't going to
(18:00):
help them right.
A good partnership would be hey, audience of this amazing
artist.
Here's a product that I love.
I really enjoy using.
You know athletic greens in themorning.
I'm a big fan of.
You know Jack Daniels at night,like I'm having a Jack Daniels
listening party.
Why don't you bring a bottleand we can all listen to some
new music tonight on Instagramlive.
(18:22):
You know all of those options.
You just got to be a littlecreative with it.
I wouldn't just be, you know,all of a sudden, a brand board.
You know where you're sellingyour audience, just whatever
comes in.
I think you want to treat yourfeed and your partnerships with
the same level of high touch andcuration as you always have as
(18:45):
you built this audience up.
Marc Matthews (18:47):
Yeah, so it's sort of like what you mentioned.
I love the idea of a JackDaniels listening party, by the
way, but yeah, it sounds great,but it's got to naturally flow
with what it is that you're whatyou do.
It's got to be authentic,hasn't it?
Ultimately?
I think that's what we'regetting down to here, not just a
random post suddenly aboutsomething that is totally left
(19:07):
field of what it is that youusually represent or do.
Jesse Kirshbaum (19:10):
And use your skills to storytell and to
connect the dots and help peopleunderstand why, like on
podcasts, we know that thoselive reads and actually
promoting products that theycare about makes a difference in
selling through.
It's the same situation when itcomes to artists and creators.
(19:31):
Know what products you believein.
Try to work with those, try togive a new story and context to
it.
Don't just copy and paste.
You know, pay for posts.
Don't have your manager, justdo it all the time.
Like, be involved if you wantthis to resonate, because, like
you're saying, authentic.
Yeah, it's got to feel like afit.
(19:56):
It doesn't.
People can smell out just beingsold to and they don't want
that, and brands don't want tobe in that business either.
There's enough brands andenough artists out there to find
fits that at least make senseon all levels, and those are the
(20:16):
best partnerships.
Those make the biggest impactand that's why we're seeing more
and more growth in this spaceis because the marketplace is
ripe for this, especially usingsocial media.
Marc Matthews (20:29):
Indeed, touching on social media and circling
back to something you mentionedin my first line of questioning,
which was about virality andalso about followers numbers,
and that your actual socialmedia account and brands aren't
looking for those.
I suppose they are in a way,but can you talk about
(20:49):
real-world connections now,because in the halftime report
you mentioned that malls areback shopping centres, as we
call them here in the UK.
But why follow account is lessimportant than it used to be now
to brands, because you touchedon it a tiny bit earlier.
But maybe if you could talk alittle bit more about that and
what you mean by the real worldconnection, people are starving
(21:12):
to connect in real life againand people want an experience.
Jesse Kirshbaum (21:17):
There's a little bit of fatigue of online
shopping.
If you're going to go buysomething, you want to be able
to feel it and to touch it.
We see vinyl sales are on the.
We see vinyl sales are on therise.
We see that sales are on therise.
See physical, tangible mediamore and more.
Events, communities in person,even meetings are at a premium
(21:38):
if you can do them in personright now, because we're
exhausted from just looking atour screens all the time.
And malls are seeing thatgrowth.
People are wanting to go in thestores and what the stores are
doing are creating anunderstanding.
They need to create experiencesInstagramable moments, reasons
to be in the store, allexclusive sales, product drops,
(22:06):
fun hangs with other like-mindedpeople in your store's
community.
It's about creating more thanjust a transactional experience.
These stores have an advantagebecause they've got these
physical retail layouts, sopeople want to be there and
(22:26):
stores understand that that'shappening and are more and more
catering to these events andthese live experiences, which is
an exciting thing because, yeah, shopping at Amazon is a great
convenience and it's got itsinnovations and it's a big
opportunity but also the factthat we're going back to stores
(22:49):
and want to try things on andwant to.
You know, shop with friends andyou know lids, the hat stores
making customized hats now thatyou can only get in stores and
patches.
People want that.
People want to use theexpression.
In terms of follower count, it'sless important about how many
followers you have.
(23:10):
It's more important aboutengagement and engagement
percentage ratio how many peopleof your audience are leaned in.
They're coming to see what youhave to say.
They're coming to see what youhave to say.
(23:37):
They're listening to whatyou're talking about.
They're buying or following ordoing what you're asking them to
do.
They're be bought.
They could be for an oldexperience.
They could have been adifferent account.
You could be a different person.
It's less about what you'vedone in the past.
It's really about the contextand creation of what you're
doing right now.
And what's really cool is it'sabout the content.
(23:59):
This world, some of thesealgorithms.
It doesn't even matter how manyfollowers you have.
It just matters how relevantyour content is for the
algorithm to have it take off.
You could have a thousandfollowers.
You could have a hundredfollowers and make an amazing
piece of content on TikTok andhave 10 million views, because
it's not just your followersthat are going to see that.
(24:21):
The For you page and thealgorithm allow it for now, like
the most relevant content toreach the people that are out
there.
So it's more important thanever to be making great content
and your next move has got to beyour best move.
Versus how many followers youhave and what you've done a year
(24:43):
ago to build those followers,you know what you've done a year
ago to build those followers.
Yeah, like on a very surfacelevel scan, you could say, oh,
that person has a lot offollowers, they're a big deal.
But savvy marketers are lookingdeeper and there's a lot more
insights that can be told basedon quality of content and
(25:03):
engagement of audience.
Marc Matthews (25:06):
Indeed With regards to content, would you?
I probably know the answer tothis, but would you say it's
quality over quantity, right,when it comes to putting out
content in general?
Jesse Kirshbaum (25:17):
The social graph is really all about
staying top of mind.
So quality is important, but Iactually think that quality is
less important.
You're never going to do itbetter than the movie studios
and the big production houses,and these creators are winning.
Like live streamers are justraw uncut, and that's the next
(25:41):
big trend is this live streamexperience right from your home,
right from your laptop, rightfrom your phone.
And so this is not aboutquality, it's about connection,
and it's about connection toaudience, and so one of the best
ways to stay top of mind is tostay top of the social graph.
(26:02):
With constant posting Plus,these platforms reward more of a
posting cadence, so you'replaying to an algorithm that
wants you to post more.
So even if you put up anamazing post once a month, it's
not going to get the samealgorithmic lift or relevance
(26:25):
with your audience as three tofour shorter stories or other
pieces of content or cutting upthe content in different ways.
Um, like we talked aboutearlier, that really will be the
way to dominate.
So I think it's actually acombination of both, but if the
world had its way, currentlyit's more about quantity than it
(26:48):
is quality interesting.
Marc Matthews (26:51):
Yeah, yeah, I went like I thought you might.
I thought it was going to gothe other way, but then again I
get what you're saying aboutlike the big studios having the,
the budgets and the teamsbehind them, or the big artists,
let's say, and being able toreally refine and hone in and
create that really sort ofA-star piece of content.
But you've got to work withwhat you have and UGC, I mean, I
(27:13):
do that myself and when I'mputting something out I think
good is good enough with thetools and the facilities that I
have at hand and what wins foryou is consistency and being a
trusted voice.
Jesse Kirshbaum (27:25):
That's there every single week.
You know, week in, week out.
That's what gets people to feellike they're going to continue
to tune in.
Not that if you did oneblockbuster show with Bruce
Springsteen and I don't know howthat changes.
You know, if you've got theOasis interview, it's a big week
for you, but are people goingto care six months from now?
Marc Matthews (27:48):
Yeah.
Jesse Kirshbaum (27:49):
Yeah, you're not consistently doing what
you're doing right now.
You've got our attention, wecan count on you.
You're in our inbox, you're onour podcast feed every single
week, and that is actually soimportant when it comes to
audience and connection yeah,agreed, and it's um.
Marc Matthews (28:10):
Just this year I've been.
I've been releasing more musicof my own, and I know I noticed
that because it's not somethingI've with the podcast.
I've been consistent now forwell, I think it's about five
years, um, and then with thenewsletter as well, but actually
releasing music this year I'vebeen.
I've released musicsporadically over the past
decade or so in various guises,but only this year I've been
like you know what I'm I'm gonnaput the hammer down and I'm
(28:32):
gonna be consistent and try andkeep a cadence of four to six
weeks and I've noticed thedifference.
Um, I've released five now andthe the hockey stick curve in
terms of listenership is is nowtaking effect, which is, which
is amazing, and it's justtestament to what you're saying
there.
It is consistency, consistencyand just showing up.
Basically.
Jesse Kirshbaum (28:52):
It's a big insight for the audience and
it's hard, you know what ittakes every single week, no
missed weeks, to show up likethis.
It's exhausting, but it's whatworks.
It's what works in all facetsof life.
It's almost like compoundingwisdom, compounding audience,
compounding health.
Like the more a little bitevery single day will get you to
(29:15):
a much bigger goal than takingtime off, putting back in you
know, dibble and dabbling in allin for a week, then off for a
month, like people aren't goingto reward that behavior and
you're not going to see growthin.
(29:36):
Like what you just explained.
Like you just gave them the key, which is hard work and
consistency every single day,with passion and honing your
craft.
Congratulations on five yearswith this podcast.
Marc Matthews (29:49):
Thanks very much and a new music coming out.
Jesse Kirshbaum (29:52):
That's exciting .
Marc Matthews (29:54):
It is, it is.
It's five years of the podcasthas gone by like the blink of an
eye.
It is mad, mad how time fliesand in between getting guests
like yourself back on thepodcast because it doesn't feel
like it was episode, becausewe're on episode, this is going
to be episode 205.
And it was episode 141.
So it's over a year ago but itcertainly doesn't seem that long
(30:17):
.
And it is mad how timeprogresses.
But that's also why I thinkaudience listening you need to
like if you're going to dosomething, it's just do it,
because time goes by so quick,right, and if you want to do
something, just start today.
You know, that's my thought andthat's what I did with the
podcast.
I was like I'm not going towait to do loads of research
into, like honing the perfectpodcast and making sure it's
(30:39):
it's absolutely perfect.
When I dropped that firstepisode, I was just like you
know what?
I'm just just gonna invitesomeone on that, I know, have a
chat about some music and thensee what happens.
And it is just compound effect.
Uh, it's just gone on fromthere, which is amazing.
Um, just say, what a way of thetime here.
So there's one question ortopic I just want to cover
before we wrap things up.
(31:00):
And in the in the halftimereport you mentioned there's no
single music industry, so maybeyou could just touch on that a
bit.
What do you mean when you saythere's no longer one music
industry?
Jesse Kirshbaum (31:10):
It's a world of niches.
Now, even the top artists onthe pop charts, most people do
not know who they are or theirsong or their songs in general.
It's really changed where it'sno longer a world where MTV and
radio and record labels definedwho you could listen to and who
(31:33):
you couldn't.
Now everybody's got a voice.
There's all these differentconnection points to audience
and to fans, and it's reallychanged from this kind of
streaming and podcast worldwhere you're not just listening
to a country music station or arap station.
It's really customized andtailored to your taste.
(31:56):
The radar release is going totell you what came out on
Spotify, but based on yourpersonal preferences.
But based on your personalpreferences, the biggest
playlists on Spotify aren't thecountry music playlist or the
rock music playlist.
It's Pollen, which is a feeling.
(32:16):
It's New Music Friday, which isa whole consortium of different
artists and genres.
The era of the genre has reallydisappeared.
It's no longer about that.
It's now really about music andcommunity and experience and
(32:39):
vibe.
What do you want to feel?
If you want to feel good,there's a mix for that and that
mix is going to play you songsthat make you feel good,
depending on the genre.
So it's become a lot harder tofind these kind of water cooler
artists and these water coolermoments, universally beloved
(33:04):
songs.
It's now an industry of somereally might like Fred again and
might be ravenous fans and hecould sell out a show in
Brooklyn in 10 minutes that heannounces.
And some might want to see thenext streaming sensation on
(33:26):
TikTok.
And some might like an artist'smusic but not have any idea
what they look like or soundlike and not be interested in
going to their live show.
It's really like a wholedifferent consortium of artists
and genres and industry.
It's multiple differentbusinesses.
A TikTok artist is differentthan a SoundCloud artist is
(33:50):
different than an artist that'sbig on radio.
So if you look at the chartsand you look at what your
friends are listening to and indifferent regions, what they're
listening to and what yourparents are listening to, what
new music's coming up, it'sreally like a mixed bag and so
(34:10):
it's an opportunity because youcould have a true audience or a
true fan base and really be ableto do a lot with them.
The long tail is alive and inmany ways thriving, but also it
makes it harder to be able towrap your arms around, like what
are the songs of the summer.
I just put out a mix for, like,my favorite songs of the summer
(34:31):
.
It's everyone's got an opinionbut nobody actually does.
It's really hard to define whatis the biggest song this summer
Because there aren't really bigsummer blockbuster music
moments anymore.
It's just a lot of different.
If you went to Glastonbury, youhad this artist.
If you went to Coachella, youloved this artist.
(34:53):
If you watch this movie, youwatch the K-pop demon slaying
Netflix smash.
That's your song of the summer.
If you went to Buena VistaSocial Club on Broadway, that's
your song of the summer.
You went to Buena Vista SocialClub on Broadway.
That's your song of the summer.
It's such a wide-rangingselection of music right now
(35:17):
that there's just no breakout.
Everybody agrees pop culturemoment, except for the Super
Bowl, right?
That's one of those things thatis like become bigger than ever
and the stage is bigger thanever and everybody's watching
that 10 minute performance andit ripples and it helped
(35:37):
Kendrick Lamar, you know, becomeone of the biggest artists on
the planet.
That you know.
Five-year-olds to 80-year-oldsall now know who he is and his
music because he played that onthat stage.
But besides that, it's reallyhard to define what is
(36:00):
mainstream popular music rightnow, because we're all living in
our own kind of curated bubblesyeah, that's exactly what I've
got written down in my noteshere curated, and that's how I
feel it is because I do that.
Marc Matthews (36:14):
I, I do it unknowingly, every friday.
I always listen to releaseradar and I just it's just a
part of my life now and thatthat curation, um, where it's
automatically done for mewithout me, and it's the same
when I go on youtube or anyother well, any other platform
like that, and I know as soon asI open it up, all the content's
been curated for me.
But it's going to be differentto, for example, my fiance.
(36:36):
What's curated for her onyoutube is entirely different to
what's curated for me, uh, andand the same with spotify as
well, which is I can see whenyou, when you describe it as
fragmented markets, and how itreally is, um, as you say, apart
from that, that super bowlmoment, um, which is it's
amazing how that transcends,isn't it?
And how?
Um?
(36:56):
Going back to my fiance again,he's got, she's got no interest
whatsoever in american football,but she's aware of the halftime
show and it's just, it'samazing and how huge, huge that
is.
Just that halftime, those 10minutes, like you say, it's
absolutely incredible, powerfulstuff, man.
Jesse, big thanks again forreturning and talking this
(37:20):
through with me today, becauseit's incredibly interesting
stuff and I always come awaywith new sort of tactics that I
want to employ myself when itcomes to promoting music my own
music and the podcast as welland helping other people out.
So I think it's amazing.
So I think, before we wrapthings up, um, maybe if you
could just chat a little bitabout the new agency, about your
newsletter, where the audiencecould find you online as well
(37:43):
I'd be be happy to.
Jesse Kirshbaum (37:44):
So I live at the intersection of
entertainment technology andbrand partnerships.
Really, what we do is helpbrands make meaningful
connections to their consumersby leveraging the power of music
.
So that could be a originalsong for a brand, that could be
an artist as the face of acampaign, that could be a
(38:06):
content partnership where anartist is doing a commercial of
some sort for an artist, for abrand.
We really are storytellers thathelp create pop culture moments
and every week I chroniclewhat's happening in the space.
It's kind of my love letter tothe music business.
It's a newsletter called Beatsand Bytes and it's got a pretty
(38:29):
large influential following andbasically I'm telling you
everything that I'm seeingthat's happening in the music
and brand space, with my own POV, different projects or
priorities that I'm working on.
And it's a curation where everyweek I'll scour a thousand
articles, read a hundred andbasically select 10 that I share
(38:53):
in my newsletter.
And we obviously love yourpodcast.
We love what you're doing, weknow you're a true music head,
coming from a really differentmarket in the UK and really care
about your craft and justexcited to be able to amplify
what you're doing.
(39:14):
And so when there's relevantconversations.
We have a podcast section wherewe'll highlight one podcast
each week that we listen to, andfor me I'm just like in the
trend gym I'm constantly seeingwhat's out there, I'm constantly
being tapped to kind ofchronicle what's going on, and
then we're creating our ownmoments all the time with
(39:34):
different campaigns and projects.
This week in July, when thiscomes out, I'll be having two
big events in New York one withthe wrestling world and
wrestling and hip hop and brands, and another is like an
exclusive on stage, uh, broadwayexperience where you know
(39:55):
you'll see your favoriteBroadway star, uh, you know, and
have dinner with them.
Uh, while, uh, on the stage ofof, of the one of the biggest
hits in the history of the genreof theater.
So those are the type of things,whereas on top of that, we're
working with constantly brands,ideating around different
campaigns, projects, things tothink about, artists they should
(40:18):
be aligning with tours, theyshould be sponsoring festivals
they should be showing up at.
That's what we do all day long.
We just try to figure out waysto support artists and the music
business through the proud, thepower of brand marketing
amazing, exciting stuff, man.
Marc Matthews (40:39):
I love those two events that you got planned.
They sound incrediblyinteresting and, at the same
time, incredibly diverse as well.
It must be exciting.
Every day is going to be foryou, I can imagine it's
extremely different to the daybefore, which I think is a very
good way to sort of operatewithin, just if that's your
career.
You know, something new anddifferent and exciting every day
(41:02):
is what we all strive for, Ithink.
But, jesse, again, it's been anabsolute pleasure having you
back on the podcast today.
Everything you mentioned thereI'll put notes in the episode
description.
Rather, I'll put links in theepisode description so the
audience can go away.
Sign up for the newsletter,check out the new agency and
what you're up to as well, checkout those two events.
And again, a huge, huge thankyou.
(41:22):
Audience listening as well.
If you do want to learn moreabout what Jesse's up to,
obviously click the link in theepisode description, but also
sign up for the newsletter thatI send out once a week as well,
as I'll be putting links to thehalftime report in there.
Also.
Click the link in the episodedescription and you can find
that too.
Basically, you can just findeverything in the episode
description head there, andyou'll find it all.
(41:42):
The episode description headthere, and you'll find it all.
Jesse Kirshbaum (41:46):
Uh, jesse, again a big thank you and I will
catch up with you soon, mark.
It was a pleasure, great seeingyou.
Marc Matthews (41:48):
Have a wonderful rest of your summer and let's do
it again soon indeed, untilnext time, folks stay inspired,
keep creating and don't beafraid to experiment inside the
mix.
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