August 12, 2025 • 51 mins
Have you ever abandoned a promising track because it suddenly "didn't feel right" the next day? Why does your track feel wrong the next day? Is Overthinking Killing Your Songwriting Process? In this eye-opening episode of Inside the Mix, synth-pop artist Michael Oakley unpacks the creative psychology behind overthinking songwriting and how our emotional state can sabotage musical momentum.
Inspired by advice from Max Martin -“Don’t overthink a song until its third rewrite” -Michael reveals how writing 14+ song drafts taught him the balance between intuition and iteration. We explore the mental traps artists fall into: abandoning promising tracks, getting stuck in endless revisions, and losing objectivity. Michael shares how trusted collaborators (Ollie Wride, Dana Jean Phoenix, and John Kunkel) help him overcome production blindness and restore clarity to his mix decisions.
You'll also learn practical strategies to break creative paralysis, from setting a tempo and key to choosing sounds that unlock inspiration. Discover how he transformed a 2000s-inspired track into a synthpop anthem, retaining its essence while reinventing its sound.
Whether you’re battling the blank DAW screen or questioning your last vocal take, this episode offers real-world tools to finish more music with confidence.
Subscribe now to join our community of producers and songwriters learning to navigate the creative landscape with confidence. Michael's new album arrives May 8th next year—perfect timing to apply these insights to your musical projects.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Marc Matthews (00:00):
What if the real reason your songs aren't
connecting isn't your production, but your process?
A wise man once shared apowerful piece of advice from
Max Martin Don't overthink asong until its third rewrite.
It's a reminder that even thebiggest hitmakers wrestle with
the question should you chaseperfection or trust the initial
spark?
Today, in this episode,returning guest Michael Oakley
(00:22):
and I unpack that question andmore.
If you've ever struggled withwhen to stop tweaking a song,
whether to write more or better,or how to stay authentic in a
high output world, this episodeis for you.
Michael Oakley (00:36):
You're listening to the Inside the Mix podcast
with your host, Mark Matthews.
Marc Matthews (00:40):
Welcome to Inside the Mix, your go-to podcast for
music creation and production.
Whether you're crafting yourfirst track or refining your
mixing skills, join me each weekfor expert interviews,
practical tutorials and insightsto help you level up your music
and smash it in the musicindustry.
Let's dive in.
Hey folks, welcome back toInside the Mix.
(01:02):
I'm thrilled to be joined onceagain by Scottish synth-pop
maestro, Michael Oakley.
He's now based in Canada andhe's signed to New Retrowave
Records.
Michael, that was a long introfor me.
Welcome back.
How are you?
Michael Oakley (01:16):
Good, yeah, thanks for having me back.
Yeah, I enjoy doing these sortof things, because doing these
sort of things because, you know, in a world where it was social
media, where it's all about howpeople look rather than how
they are behind the scenes withthe process, you know, people
see my social media.
(01:37):
I don't really post a lot.
I'll maybe post the odd pictureif I'm in the studio or
something, or my cats or astupid meme, but I care more
about this type of materialbecause I feel like this is the
sort of thing that has value forpeople listening.
(01:58):
You know, musicians, producers,writers, and you know I don't
think of myself as a finishedarticle.
You know, I really think thatI'm still learning and still
working towards, um, not a goal,but staying in the zone where
you are able, where you're ableto have enough energy to pull
(02:21):
from places in order to get theideas from here and here into
here.
Um, and that's the mostimportant thing, um, and I just
I love the idea of peoplegetting something of value that
helps, uh, their creativeprocess out of these types of
things, you know yeah, I totallyagree.
Marc Matthews (02:43):
I totally agree and, uh, that's why I love doing
these interviews and gettingthese sort of behind this,
behind the scenes, almostpsychological conversations
about the process, not justabout mixing techniques, you
know, and and music productiontechniques that you can employ,
but also there's the psychologybehind songwriting and music
production as well, which Ithink is incredibly important.
(03:03):
Before we dive into it, folks,if you want to catch our first
chat, check out episodes 53 and54.
This is episode 207, just for abit of context.
So it was a while ago where wedove into synthwave production
and getting started as an indieartist and, as I mentioned, in
this episode we're going to godeeper with what's the line
(03:24):
between refining your craft andoverthinking it into the ground.
So we're going to be talkingabout songwriting strategies and
everything else as well.
So the idea for thisconversation stemmed from a reel
that you sent me from anotherpodcast, and apologies if I
pronounce this podcast wrongbecause, hands in the air, I
(03:44):
haven't listened to the actualepisode, but the podcast is
called I think I'm going topronounce this with a slightly
Scandinavian tone Soda, soda,jeker.
I could be totally wrong there.
It's S-O-D-A-J-E-R-K-E-R onsongwriting podcast.
So again, apologies if I got itwrong.
So the reel anyway.
(04:04):
Podcast.
So again apologies if I got itwrong.
Uh, so the the real anyway waswhere gary barlow of take that
talks about advice from maxmartin and, to paraphrase, he
said you should overthink andrework every song.
So my question to you, michael,is do you often go through
multiple sort of rewrites of atrack and at what point do you
feel like you've taken a song asfar as it can go?
Michael Oakley (04:36):
I absolutely will go through at least 12, 13,
14 drafts of an idea before Ieven start to say, yeah, this is
where it needs to be.
And usually by that point, um,I get other people involved to
take a listen.
Um, you know, I work withpeople like, uh, john conco he's
uh of new division.
I probably mentioned this inthe last podcast, I forget, but,
(05:00):
um, but I like to work with alot of the same people.
So Olly Rye, dana, jean Phoenix, and I always let them hear the
ideas and say what do you think?
What would you do at this stage?
Or is anything sticking out atyou that you think isn't working
(05:23):
?
Because when you work onsomething for that length of
time let's say you get to drafteight and you've probably heard
the idea about 600, 700 timesplayed over and over and over
because you've been working withit and then you start to, um,
you start to get blind.
(05:45):
It's a little bit like when youspray aftershave and then after
15 minutes you can't smell itanymore because you've become
nose blind, yeah, yeah.
And it's like that, it's likeyou start to become.
It's a myopia takes over andyou can't hear it anymore, and
so what you need to do is getsomeone else I mean, I like
(06:08):
someone else to come and listenand give me feedback, and
because they usually give me anobservation that I haven't
considered or they break thatmyopia and and like most
recently, I was working on us ona track and I really liked the
drums.
I thought the drums soundedreally nice.
And then I took it to JohnKunco and he said he said those
(06:31):
drums don't work, the kick andthe snare do not sound like they
really belong in this world.
And at first there's thatlittle, you know, there's a
little push back inside.
You feel like I like that, Ilike those drums.
And then, as I sat with it andhe demoed some alternative kicks
(06:54):
and snares for me, I started tocome around and go, yeah,
you're right, you're right.
Actually I'm going to have togo on a hunt now to basically
find an alternate.
And it's funny because you know, see, when you, when someone
shifts that little shift ofperception and it actually, it
actually uh, extends the life ofhow many more hours you have of
(07:17):
enjoyment when you're workingon the track because someone's
broke you out of a, let's say, aroadblock and then you feel the
energy come back to to want towork on it again, because you're
oh, I know what to do with thisnow and you know it's a bit
like that.
So, um, yeah, I go throughabout 12 or so, maybe more,
(07:38):
drafts, um, of a song before Istart to be happy with it.
I guess I mean, yeah, it's,it's, it's a frustrating process
.
I think I I heard a great pieceof advice, uh, and someone was
talking about the differencebetween an amateur and a
professional.
Right, so, or, or sorry, let'ssay a better word is a hobbyist,
(08:02):
or sorry, let's say a betterword is a hobbyist.
A hobbyist and say, like anamateur or professional, someone
on the road to try, like, I'mtaking this seriously and I want
to get better.
So the hobbyist will work onsomething because it's fun, and
when it stops being fun, theystop because it's a hobby, it's
(08:26):
supposed to be fun.
But an amateur or professional,semi-professional, someone on
the road to like, I really wantto unravel the secret of how to
make a great production or agreat track.
When the thing starts off beingfun, it's an experiment.
But then it stops being fun andit becomes frustrating.
(08:52):
And you, you know you, you workon it.
One day you're in a certainmood, you enjoy it because
you're in that mood.
When the amateur,semi-professional person hits
that frustration, you knowyou're in a certain mood, you're
feeling melancholic and thatlends itself to the vibe that
(09:16):
you've been going for for thetrack and it works.
But then what happens thefollowing day?
When you know you get up, yougo out for a walk, you watch a
movie and your moods changed andyou're no longer melancholic.
Now you are in a completelydifferent, you're jovial and a
more fun mood and you go back totry and work on that track with
(09:38):
that slightly somber tone.
Your energy does not match withthat song.
So you, there's a moment whereyou think this sucks, this idea
is not as good as I thought itwas.
This idea, this idea doesn'tfeel the same as it felt
yesterday.
Maybe it's not good, wrong,your moods changed.
(09:58):
So, in the same way, if I'mwalking around listen to stuff
on Spotify, depending on whatmood I'm in, I'll listen to a
certain playlist, a certainartist, a certain song that fits
my mood.
But somehow we know that whenwe're looking for entertainment,
but we don't recognize that asa creative.
When we are making music, it'san immediate oh, this idea sucks
(10:22):
, I'm not feeling it anymore.
Of course you're not feeling it.
Your mood's changed.
It's a bit like uh, georgeHarrison got great advice.
I've got all these anecdotesbecause I am obsessed with that.
I'll take wisdom wherever I canfind it, whether it's the
Beatles, gary Barlow, barryManilow, uh, you know, I don
(10:44):
don't care, I'll take any wisdomwhere I can find it and apply
it.
And George Harrison said he wasasking John Lennon for
songwriting advice.
And John Lennon said that exactthing.
That's where I got it from.
He said if you come up with agood idea, stay with that idea
for as long as you can and getas much of it down on paper and
(11:07):
as much of it developed, becausetomorrow you will wake up and
you'll feel differently.
Because that's what we're likeas human beings.
You know you sad one day, happythe next.
The following day I'll need tojoin the gym because I'm
motivated and I want to get fit.
Falling day nah, I'm just notgoing to bother, I'm just going
to have ice cream.
We're a very capricious speciesand that, so we have to
(11:33):
recognize that when we're beingcreative.
So to try and bring this allhome is stay the course.
That's why I mean people mightask, why the hell would you do
12 drafts, 20 drafts of a track?
Isn't that obsessive?
(11:53):
Isn't that a pursuit ofperfection that doesn't exist?
Yeah, it's my perfectionbecause it's my song and it's my
production and at the end ofthe day, you know and I mean
this in the nicest, mostrespectful and courteous way
possible I don't write music forother people.
I know that people who are fanslike to sort of think that about
(12:17):
their favorite musicians.
But I promise you, if I wrotemusic specifically for what I
thought was the fan base, mymusic would suck.
It would be the most bland,generic, crappy, mcdonald's
hamburgers level music.
(12:38):
And that's why, for me, I enjoythe process and I even enjoy
the struggle.
And I even enjoy the struggle,I even enjoy that frustration of
oh, why isn't this working?
You know, why can't I get thisbridge section to sort of gel
back to the final chorus?
What is wrong here?
Oh, it's, you know, the drumfill before we go back.
(13:03):
It's the melody line hasn'tresolved, it's the chords just
don't do the right thing.
Maybe I need to do a sus chord,then the major bam back in and
that's what lends it back.
Like there's various techniquesto smooth things around, and
it's like that with with draftsof songs you torture yourself.
It's like that with drafts ofsongs you torture yourself, but
(13:25):
that's what you've got to do.
It's not supposed to be fun atthat stage.
At that stage it's aboutbuilding the perfect beast.
You're like making Frankenstein.
Marc Matthews (13:39):
Yeah, I totally agree.
A lot of what you said thereechoes so many conversations
I've had on the podcast.
So go right back to thebeginning about like your circle
of support, as it were.
So you've got that regulargroup of artists that you're
sending your ideas, your draftsto for feedback, and it's
something that I've uh pleatedfor one of a better way putting
about about it on the podcastnumerous times to have that
(14:01):
supportive network of peoplethat you trust their opinion
that you trust to then come backhonestly and openly with
critique and feedback on your,on your track.
And it's something that I talkabout again all the time on the
podcast and with other, withother artists as well and I
would.
Michael Oakley (14:17):
I would add one thing to that as well which I
think because we had a littlechat before this podcast about
football.
Right, we did Now.
When I used to play football, Iwasn't very good, but I used to
play with people who werebetter than me, because that's
what would allow me to developand sharpen and become better.
(14:40):
And the people I work with areall better than me, like I think
they're all better than me.
You know, oli Ride is a farbetter songwriter than I am.
John Kunkel is, you know, six,seven, eight, nine, ten times
the musician producer I am.
You know, dana Jean Phoenix aswell what an unbelievable,
unbelievable, incrediblytalented, way better singer than
(15:03):
me.
Same with ollie.
So I surround myself with peoplewho I perceive as being way
better than me and by being intheir presence and getting their
advice, I know it's going tohelp, you know, elevate anything
I do to a better level.
Because if every single one ofus signs off on the song and
says, like it, love it, love it,love it, it's got the best
(15:27):
chance.
And I'm thinking, yeah, I'mconfident with this, this is
this, this is, this is where itshould be.
Uh, this is, this is exactlywhere it should be, and and
that's why I always like to workwith people who I you know, um
think are at a higher level orbetter than me, if you know what
I mean.
Like just you know, it's thatfootball thing, you know.
Play with players that arebetter if you want to improve
(15:49):
and I've definitely improvedthrough being in their presence,
you know.
Marc Matthews (15:54):
Yeah, it reminds me of when I started playing
guitar and I was learning toplay guitar and I was playing
along to tracks and Total GuitarMagazine, playing along getting
all the tabs and whatnot.
But it wasn't until I joined aband with other musicians that
were better than me that I waslike okay, and when I went in
the studio as well to record andreally shone a spotlight on
(16:16):
what I needed to improve on.
But yeah, just being with othermusicians, the path to
progression just sped up.
So so much because you realizewhere your deficiencies are and
obviously they're there also toto help you and you bring you up
as well as the rising tides.
Something with boats comearound with the analogy, but
something along those lineslifts or boats or something like
that.
(16:37):
Um, but what you said aboutthere, about the 12 or 13 drafts
and then staying in the zoneand continuing on with the idea
for as long as you can, itreminds me of a conversation I
had with, I believe, our sharedfriend Ed Sunglasses Kid.
Oh, yes, I think that was acouple of years ago and he said
the same thing.
He said you've got to break theback of it.
(16:58):
I'm fairly certain that's whathe said, and you got to continue
because, like you said there,sometimes it's not going to be
fun, but you've got the idea.
You just need to continue withit because that that idea was
there for a reason and you justjust continue with it for as
long as you can.
Michael Oakley (17:15):
So it's really it's like.
It's like indiana jones movies.
You know, like the, the, the,like the thing with Indiana
Jones in the first movie wherehe's in pursuit of something the
Holy Grail, you know, the stone, the artifact.
You've got to think of yoursong as being like an Indiana
Jones movie.
You know you're going to haveto run and the big boulder's
(17:35):
going to come and you've got tojump out the way.
But if you can manage to get tothe top of that summit and get
that rare bird egg that you'vebeen trying to achieve and you
suffered for it it's worth it.
You are in pursuit ofperfection.
I mean, the interesting paradoxis that by the time I get there
(17:58):
and I finish the song and weall say this is great.
I actually hate it and I can'tlisten to it, for you know, I'm
the same.
Yeah, I mean I'll listen to themaster when I get the master
back and I'll enjoy the masterfor a little bit, just to sort
of, you know, hear it in itsabsolute fullest.
But after that I usually can'tlisten to my music for six
(18:19):
months to a year after itbecause I have to, just I have
to like shake it off me.
It's kind of it's a, it's a,it's a weird.
It's almost.
The price I pay is that I nolonger get to enjoy it, but
other people hopefully do andthat's worth it.
And then years later I've youknow, I don't really.
I don't really listen to my oldsongs, but if ever I come back
(18:42):
and listen to it.
I've been working on doingreworks of my old songs for a
live show and coming back tolistening to those old songs and
I'm thinking, yeah, I mean,there's a couple of things I
would change.
Because there's always thatpart of me that thinks, yeah,
maybe I would turn that snaredrum up, maybe I would have
turned the vocal down a bitthere, maybe I would have.
(19:03):
But the fact that I'm askingthose questions means that I
have that almost perfectionistthing about me where I'll never
be happy.
It's just, you've got to drawthe line under the whole thing
at some point and say thelistener is not going to get any
(19:23):
more benefit out of this frommy incessant fiddling.
You know they don't care ifthat guitar part is minus 25
left or minus 14 left, theydon't care, they don't get
anything out of it.
They're not going to go totheir friends and say oh my God,
wait till you hear this track,you will not believe how panned
left that guitar is Do you knowwhat I mean.
Marc Matthews (19:46):
Yeah, yeah, it's something I've said on the
podcast many a time.
When it gets to like bingeediting or binge revisions, and
you're like, does anyone reallyknow that you've automated that
vocal down by 0.5 dB, that, thatpre-chorus, that, no, like no
one.
Michael Oakley (20:01):
Only you know that only I know, and but it's.
It's the thin line between doesthe listener get anything out
of this?
Versus can I go to bed at nighttonight and sleep okay, knowing
that that vocal is where it isand that's the if I, if I walk
around and every time I hear thedemo and I think, oh, that is
annoying me.
I had one song actuallyrecently where the snare drum I
(20:28):
had it mastered, had the wholething finished and then I was, I
left it and then I went back toit and I actually bought these
headphones, these Bose, quietcomfort headphones, and I was on
a flight to Los Angeles and I Iwas listening to the uh, the
demos, or the sorry, thefinished masters of the new
album on on these headphones anduh, and the snare drum, I was
(20:49):
like oh no, I don't, I don'tknow if that's right.
And I had to go to my friendjames's house and listen to his
on his adam a7 speakers and Isaid and I didn't even prompt
him, I just said do you hearanything?
I'm not going to tell you whatit is, but something's bugging
me about this he said that snareis like it's sticking out
(21:13):
really obnoxiously, like there'sa frequency that just seems to.
Every time the snare hits itjust makes your eyes go, yeah,
yeah and.
And I was like, oh, but becauseI went back to the mix and
rolled off some of the the eq onit on the high end it was
really a lot of the high was Ihad to soften it down.
(21:34):
I used um, smooth too, you knowthat, uh, plug-in, uh, baby
audio sooth or whatever it'scalled smooth operator, sorry,
and and just softened the snaredown it.
But I actually went back intothe chorus and then changed a
couple of the layers because Iusually like to layer sounds,
and it was that it was actuallya prompt for me to go back and
(21:56):
actually go.
You know what that snare andthe chorus could be better.
But now when I listen to thetrack actually it's one of the
few tracks that I listen to ofmine that I don't hear anything
volume wise or production wisethat I would change, and that's
kind of rare for me.
You know, I usually do listenback and think I wish, I wish
I'd done this.
But then I think if I had, if Ihad done that maybe it's the
(22:19):
grass is greener I would besitting, sitting thinking I wish
I'd done the thing I wasoriginally doing.
Marc Matthews (22:24):
Yeah, it's interesting that you mentioned
that there, because it kind ofmoves on.
It segues nicely onto my nextquestion, which is have you ever
polished a song so much, orreworked or worked on a song so
much revision wise that youended up losing what made it
great in the first place?
Oh yeah, how do you protect theoriginal spark, the original
idea?
Michael Oakley (22:45):
Well, I think that file was under.
Don't throw the baby out withthe bathwater.
Yes, so an idea is a good idea.
How you dress it up, however, agood idea how you dress it up,
(23:08):
however, will determine whetherit has legs.
You know whether it comesacross to the listener, because
an idea is potential.
A finished track is, you know,fully realised potential.
It's an experience for thelistener.
No one really cares aboutpotential, except you know me or
you the musician, because youcan see where it's going, but
(23:29):
you have to build thescaffolding to get it where it's
supposed to go.
So, for an example, um, one ofthe songs that I had done for my
new album.
So I started writing this albumin 2022, started working on
ideas and when I started doingit, I was going through a phase
(23:51):
where I really didn't want to doanything that sounded 80s or
retro or anything.
I just thought I just, you know, I fell out of love a little
bit with the whole processbecause I felt boxed in slightly
by synth waves and genrelimitations and and I just felt
like, after do I done threealbums in five years, which for
(24:14):
me, is quite that's reallyproductive for me, and I felt
like I needed some time awayjust to forget about making
music.
And then, when I came backafter a year off, I had worked
on some other sample packprojects, worked with a couple
of other people on their songs,so that it wasn't about me
necessarily and my music cameback and the first idea that I
(24:39):
came up with it was very, verydifferent to anything that I'd
ever done before.
It sounded kind of like mid tolate 2000s electronica sort of
thing, like Ulrich Schnauss,that sort of thing, taiko, early
taiko, and I liked the idea.
(25:01):
But once the song had beenwritten and I recorded my vocals
for it and then I startedworking on other songs, I
realized that this idea doesn'twork anymore.
The song works, but the, thedress up, the clothing of the
song does not work.
And uh, I mean I guess that'smore of an example of, you know,
(25:28):
like a, a heavy metal musiciandeciding to do drum and bass.
It's a bit like what the hellare you doing?
I mean you can't do that andand not that, I am not that I
feel too like like I have tostay in a certain thing, it's
just.
(25:48):
It's just that for that type ofthing I should really have set
up another project and, set youknow, made it clear oh, this is
more 2000s year two year, 2kelectronica.
Marc Matthews (26:04):
Do you mean, like with a different name?
With a different name?
Michael Oakley (26:06):
yeah, like a different moniker, because of
how different it was, and I hadalready sort of shifted as well.
My musical sensibilities hadreally shifted by that point.
I went to an event in Floridacalled Neon and I fell back in
love with the synthwave sceneand the music and stuff.
(26:28):
And when I came back from thatI felt like I had become
realigned again with what Iwanted to do and the type of
album that I wanted to do, and Iwanted it to sound a bit more
Eurodance, early 90s kind ofthing in there and I wasn't so
rejecting of synthwave things.
(26:49):
I realized there's a way I can,I can do this now that makes
sense.
But that song no longer worked.
So I essentially had to go andremix this song that I no longer
cared for.
Really, I like the song as inthe lyrics, the melody line, the
(27:12):
structure, the verse, thechorus, all that stuff.
However, I now had to go backand essentially remix this song
and I tried to do it.
I did about three versions andit wasn't working.
Something was just not workingand I nearly gave the song away
(27:34):
to somebody else to essentiallyrework it for me, because I
started to feel like maybe Ican't do it.
Maybe I'm, maybe I've got tooclose to this and maybe I can't
hear it anymore.
Maybe someone else'sinterpretation of that maybe
would give it new life.
But then I also thought, well,if I do that then it's not me,
(27:54):
is it?
It's not me anymore.
I'm literally someone'sremixing me and I'm putting it
out as if it's my original song.
So I thought I'll give it onemore go and I came up with
something that sounded a bitmore like New Order Technique
album meets Pet Shop Boys kindof thing, and that's where it
(28:17):
started to work.
And that's when I thought, yeah, this is working.
Now this is actually startingto sound the way it's supposed
to sound and and I'm really gladthat I stuck with it because I
love that track and I realizenow that if I ditched that or
gave it away, I would never havegot to this feeling of
(28:37):
accomplishment with the song,because it was it's probably the
toughest experience I've hadwith a with a song.
Because it was it's probablythe toughest experience I've had
with a with a song, becausewhen, when you've done a whole
song like that and recorded itand you've hired session
musicians to play guitar on it,and then you're like this isn't
gonna work now.
I've spent money on this.
Yeah, like you know, I've putin a thousand hours on this.
(28:58):
You know what the hell am Igoing to do now?
But I'm glad I did, becausewhen you hear it it makes sense.
It makes sense in the contextof the album now, whereas if I
had went with the old version itwould have sounded like
completely out of place.
You know, it's a bit like thatwho's that band?
(29:20):
Who's the band that did thatsong?
More than words, was it extreme?
Marc Matthews (29:25):
is that what they're called?
Yes, yeah, it was.
Yeah, yeah right.
Michael Oakley (29:27):
That song is absolutely nothing like anything
else on the album.
It kind of tricked peoplebecause it was this ballad on an
acoustic guitar and the rest ofthe album is this heavy rock
album when people turn up at thegig and they play the rest of
the music and they're like,because I like extreme.
Marc Matthews (29:46):
And then you get the whole audience is there and
they're wanting more than words.
Yeah, you've got all theseother songs and they don't
correlate with more than words.
That was around the time whereevery band just was chucking out
a ballad, wasn't?
Michael Oakley (29:58):
it, yeah, exactly poison.
Every rose has its thorn andevery rose has its thorn and and
.
But it's that whole thing of Ithought, well, I can't really
put this on the album like that.
You know, and I did, I did likethe previous arrangement, but
it just did not work.
For because I like to have analbum that feels cohesive, um, I
(30:20):
like, I like there to be, um, asimilar family of sounds across
the album.
That is what makes that albumsound like that album and uh,
and so that's the closest Ithink lately that I've had to,
to that scenario of um, it gotto a point where I just I
(30:41):
couldn't hear it anymore.
But then, by starting from theground up and I mean literally
with just starting with thevocals and really building it
from the back, you knoweverything it started to open up
again.
It started and I started tohear it in a new way and I
started to add some things,which, because the song is
(31:04):
called School and it's kind ofabout when I was at high school
and my experience of that, and Imanaged to add some like
musical things in there, thatsort of complement like Pink
Floyd with sound effects andthings like that.
It complements that.
It complements that ambientworld of that sort of thing now
and and yeah, you'd have to hearit, but to hear the two side by
(31:27):
side to compare, I don't eventhink I've got the the previous
version, because as soon as Igot the new version, delete
that's.
That's six gigabytes off of mydropbox.
Marc Matthews (31:35):
Bye, bye you know , don't blame you, uh.
So I mean that that's a clear uh.
What you mentioned there inthat, in that story, is kind of
that classic sort of how toreinvigorate your love for what
it is you were doing before, totake some time away and work on
something different.
It reminds me of I'd say itreminds me of any kind of
similar to the beatles, wherethey did that whole, when they
(31:57):
went over to india and then cameback and they experienced that
and they came up with these newsounds and these new soundscapes
Slightly tenuous link there,but the idea that you go away
and then you work on somethingelse, you come back and you also
you went to that gig as well Uh, that that festival to reignite
your sort of passion, as itwere, for that sort of retro,
(32:17):
that 80s and 90s as well 90ssound as well in there as well
and sticking with it.
I think it's a key example ofwhat we mentioned earlier about
sticking with an idea and thatprocess of reworking, because
there's something there.
You just got to stick with it.
Michael Oakley (32:36):
Honestly, the hardest thing is doing that, I
think, think, sticking with it,because you don't feel like
doing it and you, you know you.
You want to just go on facebookand doom scroll, or you want to
go and play video games, or youwant to go out and just do
anything.
That's a distraction becausethere's an uncomfortableness,
but I promise you that there's.
(32:58):
There's no such thing as afeeling of accomplishment
without first having to put inthe hard work.
It's like exercise, you know I.
You know like small weightsbecause I like just general
strength training.
But if I haven't done it for,you know know, a few weeks and
(33:20):
I'm back to being that weaklevel again.
The last thing I want to do isstand for, you know, 45 minutes
to an hour, bored out my mind,lifting weights to some video on
YouTube.
I'm just thinking.
I said I'm bored, like I, likeI.
I'm not being mentallystimulated.
This is me just being literallyin service of hoping that later
(33:45):
I will get the benefit fromthis.
I'm doing this right now.
It's uncomfortable, it'sunpleasant.
You're lifting these weightsand, oh man, I just want to go
upstairs and do something elseor go outside and do something
else, but you get the payoff ina few days, when you feel a
little stronger, and the payoff?
I mean, I think that's thething.
(34:06):
What's the payoff from stayingwith it?
Well, hopefully you get yourtrack to where you want it to be
, but you start to create a newhabit and that habit is
resilience, because you're notsomebody that's going to cop out
when things get tough.
You're someone that's going tosay you know what?
I'm going to take this idea andI'm going to fucking get it to
(34:28):
where it needs to be, andnothing's going to stop me.
And if it doesn't work today,that's fine, I'll have laid some
groundwork that will help metomorrow.
You have to think of it like acompass, even if the thing you
have in front of you in your DAW, the ideas that you have, the
drum arrangement, the basspattern and the structure, even
(34:54):
if that is not quite what it'ssupposed to be great, that's
feedback.
That's not what it's supposedto be.
Great, that's feedback.
That's not what it's supposedto be.
So you now know you need to goin another direction.
You know the worst positionever with people with writer's
block is they have an empty DAW.
There's nothing in it.
(35:15):
There's just a couple of blanktracks, nothing laid down.
They're sitting there in frontof the keyboard here and what do
I do?
What am I going to do?
And there's nothing, there's.
There's no map, there's nopoint on a map, there's no
compass, it's just.
I don't know what to do,because you know.
So what do you do?
(35:36):
You start to.
You start to map the terrain.
You start to.
So what do you do?
You start to map the terrain,you start to load a plugin,
flick through presets until youfind something that you go,
that's nice, there's the startof, there's the first point in
your map.
Well, that's nice, that's anice bass sound.
Let's keep that.
Get another plugin, start to gothrough until you find, oh,
there's a really nice pad sound.
There you go, there's anotherdestination on the map.
(36:00):
Does that pad work?
Nice with the bass?
Oh, yeah, great, let's start tolay down some, some drums, even
if the drums aren't quite whatyou're going to use.
Let's just get something going,just to.
Yeah, I think that's the keythere.
Set, uh, set, the course.
You know, tempo is a good one aswell.
Do I want a 90 bpm chilled kindof vibe?
(36:23):
Do I want a 115 beats perminute kind of mid-tempo dance
kind of track.
Do I want a faster, 130 beatsper minute to 160 beats per
minute, kind of up tempo,kindpo-y, kind of energetic
thing.
All of these things like whatyou do is you just commit early
(36:45):
to something and if later on yousay I don't want to be this
tempo, cool, let's go back down.
I had one song actuallyrecently that I was working on
and it was about 100 beats perminute and I had done the whole
arrangement.
Because one of my philosophieson this album is if I do start
(37:07):
an idea, finish it, don't ditchit.
Finish the idea, and if itdoesn't work, cool.
But I'm training myself to sayI'm going to finish this idea
and if I don't use it, okay, Ican give this idea to someone
else and they can maybe use it,you know, but just setting that
habit of finishing an idearather than going yeah and then
(37:29):
you have a folder full of youknow 64 bars of nothingness.
You know, maybe a verse, and averse and a chorus that goes
nowhere, um, so anyway, thisidea, um 100 beats per minute,
finished the whole thing.
It was like, honestly, there'sabout easily over 100 tracks in
(37:49):
the DAW with all the effects.
I had got it mixed andeverything and, uh, I was
working with Oli Ride on it andI let him hear it and he said
this should be faster, thisshould be 116 beats per minute.
We should turn this into adance track, like a more kind of
(38:10):
mid kind of tempo dance track.
And you know, that way I'mthinking oh, but I've just
fucking done this.
But it's 100 beats per minute,like I've just spent all this
time working on it.
And he said send me the stems.
And so I sent him like stemmedstuff, you know the drums, bass
pads and all that stuff and hesaid I'll let you hear an idea
(38:33):
that I've got.
And he basically rebuilt it ata different, higher tempo,
changed things around, and thenwhen he did that, I could hear
it, I could hear it, and then atthat point it was just a case
of time to delete things that,that, that, that and that
doesn't work.
Delete that out of the session.
116 beats per minute.
(38:54):
Let's keep what we're keeping.
Let's change the bass to be abit more up tempo and you start
to work with the arrangement tomake it fit this new landscape
and by the end of it the newversion is far superior to the
old version.
Um, you know, and I, I get itnow, I get it, it's, it's, but
it's.
Being able to do that in themoment and not say, oh, I've put
(39:15):
all this work in, this has tostay at 100.
Being locked in the compassidea is a good thing.
If you don't draw a sandbox,you just walk along the beach
aimlessly and so just commit.
110 beats per minute C minor.
Let's find 10 preset soundsthat work kind of well together
(39:40):
until you get a little melodicidea and just start, and start
moving in any direction.
Any direction is better thansitting in a blank screen.
What am I going to do?
Marc Matthews (39:53):
yeah, that is fantastic advice and it's
something I do the exact same.
I start out a track, I pick a,pick a tempo.
Uh, pick a, pick a key and thenand then move on from there.
Admittedly, I often put downthe um I.
I find myself starting with the, the, the kick and the bass.
I find a bass line is.
(40:13):
That's more so with the musicthat I've been putting out
lately myself.
But but, like yourself there,what you mentioned there about
having a folder full of ideasabout 18 months ago, I thought
to myself you know what.
I'm not going to start anythingelse, I'm just going to go back
with what I have.
This is the reason why Istarted those songs and I've
been gradually chipping intothem and releasing them and it
(40:34):
really does work.
It's that resilience is the keyword.
Michael Oakley (40:37):
What you said, it's resilience well, I can
honestly tell you that of all ofthe uh other demos that I've
ever done, that maybe didn't getfinished.
Something from those demos cameback later.
Maybe it was, maybe it was amelodic idea, maybe it was the
drums.
I thought those drums arereally nice.
(40:59):
You know, everything else isnot quite to my liking, but you
know what?
Those drums I managed to getthose drums sounding really nice
.
Those are a good jump off pointfor another song.
And I've dragged becauseobviously I use Ableton so you
can be in a session and thenopen up another session while in
(41:20):
Ableton and drag the group ofdrums to the new session and
it's like oh, there you go.
That now it's just instant,works instant.
I can just cut and paste wherethe sections need to go and then
start to work with it, but byand large there's.
It's that thing again that Isaid earlier do not throw the
baby out with the bath water,there's something in there.
(41:42):
You know, even if you found sixsounds that work really really
well together, that in itself isa massive step forward because
you've got sounds that are goingto be you know the basis for
something and they work you knowthere's a reason why people
(42:04):
like time cop and the midnightuse a lot of the same preset
sounds that they've had fromprevious songs.
There's a reason that they dothat because the sounds work
together.
Um, I mean, I don't necessarilyhave the same philosophy about
maybe recycling old sounds I'veused before.
(42:27):
I'm a little more.
I kind of tend to push awayfrom that.
I don't like to chart territorythat I've been before because I
personally don't find itinteresting in my music.
I find it interesting, you know, when they do it, because it's
it's there's a familiarness,there's a comfortableness, um,
(42:49):
but there's a reason why theyuse a lot of the same sound
palette because it works yeah,yeah, I'm much the same what you
mentioned there about thesounds.
Marc Matthews (43:05):
There's always a go-to sort of kick, hi-hat and
snare sound that I really likethis particular year.
But at the same time I'll useit, but I'll mix it slightly
differently or I might sculpt itwith time-based processing or
something along those lines,slightly differently, and the
same with the bass as well.
There's a serum bass patch thatI've used on every track, but
I'll make it slightly differentevery time, whether that's with
the LFO or the envelope orwhatever it is.
(43:27):
But there's a reason why I useit so much because, like you
mentioned, you know it works.
But again, echoing what yousaid, I just like to make it
sound slightly different.
I think that's the soundsynthesis and sampling side of
me that really likes to go inand manipulate the sonic
textures and get really hands-onwith synthesizers.
I wish I had a hardware synth.
(43:48):
I don't they're all plugins,but so but going in there and
just milling around and and thenjust moving stuff about and see
what I can come up with.
There's a song I was working onyesterday and for what I
working on yesterday and I waslistening to it.
I listened to it for a whileand there's just this sample of
a crow and I was listening so Iwas like, why have I put that in
(44:10):
there?
And at the time there must havebeen a reason why I decided to
put a crow in a breakdown, um,but I don't know where I was
going with that, but it justreminded me then of just these
different sounds and thinkingyou know what.
At the time it sounded good, sothere must be a reason I did it
.
Michael Oakley (44:25):
One thing as well about if you are going to
recycle sounds.
I mean, there's one.
There's definitely a few thingsthat I have recycled on
multiple songs on this new album, and that is a kick drum from
Oliver Power Tools because Ijust love the low end and the
(44:50):
overall sound of it.
However, whenever I've reusedit in other tracks, I've changed
the top and I've layered itwith a bit crushed top thing or
maybe more of a like a punchyattack transient thing, so that
(45:12):
the kick never quite sounds thesame, but it has the same effect
.
Same with a lot of the snaredrums as well.
I like to layer snare thingstogether, especially in the
chorus, just so that the chorusfeels like it's just got a bit
more oomph, a little more juice,and so I don't mind doing that
(45:34):
as well.
But yeah, it's funny, there areways where you can really
re-sampleple, re-effect thingsto sort of do the same thing but
sound different.
I do like serum.
I've come along to enjoyingserum and I've done quite a few
uh sound banks for serum now onsplice.
(45:54):
So it's it's.
It's that way where I've had tolearn how to use it inside out,
you know, and overcome the sortof technical obstacles that
stopped me from being able touse it to its fullest.
Marc Matthews (46:08):
It's a fantastic plug-in.
I only started using it at thetail end of last year I think it
was the tail end of last yearand it's certainly my go-to for
bass.
I would say, and then I use itfor other bits and pieces as
well.
But it is a fantastic go-to forbass, I would say, uh, and then
I use it for other bits andpieces as well.
But it's a.
It is a fantastic plug-in.
I got well aware of time here.
Um, as I say, before we westarted recording this, I said I
(46:30):
had five questions and I oftendon't get through them all, but
I think we'll have to have youback to go through the other
questions that I have here,because it'd be great to go
through them.
And I also need to give yourt-shirt a shout out as well.
I just realized you've got aResident Evil t-shirt on as well
.
Man, that's so cool.
Michael Oakley (46:47):
There's nothing more nostalgic than Resident
Evil save room music.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I loveResident Evil Would you believe
and I didn't make it, butthere's a sample pack on splice
uh, I think it's by a companycalled shaman stems and the uh.
The pack is called the saveroom and it's all music that
(47:10):
sounds like resident evil saveroom music.
Marc Matthews (47:12):
No way that's so good I'm gonna find that because
I wanna.
I wanna release a halloweenthemed tune this year, so I'm
totally gonna go find thatbecause I want to.
I want to release a halloweenthemed tune this year, so I'm
totally going to find that andthen rinse it.
Man, that'd be so good.
Um, I, as I always do with the,with these, with these chats.
Michael, if you, uh, you'vementioned uh about your new
music.
Uh, is there anything you wantto share with the audience?
(47:34):
Have you got any key dates?
Michael Oakley (47:36):
yeah, at the moment I've got a prospective
release date of 8th of May nextyear.
Just the way things have kindof worked out with me with a few
things.
It's the best and soonest timeto be able to do that.
So, yeah, it gives me more timeto come up with more ideas and
(48:01):
finish the ones that I have.
I've got most of the album doneactually.
It's just I feel like I want tocome up with a larger group of
songs to work with, to pick thebest 10 that work together
really well, and then, you know,I could use the remaining ones,
(48:22):
uh, you know, for a deluxealbum type of thing, like b-side
sort of stuff, um, you know,which is a thing, but yeah, we,
we should, uh, we should maybedo a part two.
You know, this is, this is yeahfun.
I, I definitely think so thatthere's.
Marc Matthews (48:42):
When you were talking there, there were
multiple questions that werecoming in my head, but I was
well aware of time.
So again I think, yeah, we'llget you back on to chat and go
through the other questions thatI have, because we started to
touch on, uh, mixing a littlebit there.
So it'd be quite cool to to, um, maybe do a chat a little
around that, not diving too deep, but a little bit there.
So it'd be quite cool to maybedo a chat a little around that,
(49:03):
not diving too deep, but alittle bit, on mixing as well,
because you mentioned that whenyou mentioned about 8-bit and I
remember having thisconversation on the podcast with
someone else because I'd neverreally used a bit crusher, bit
crushing, bit crusher on kicks,but I do it all the time now.
So just little bits and pieceslike that would be great to have
a chat about.
Michael Oakley (49:23):
Yeah, absolutely .
I mean, that's the thing, andI've come around to that sort of
stuff as well, because when youlook in the EQ at what an 8-bit
or say, bit, crush effect does,it's that little up at the very
top end and the high end, thatlittle spike.
That little up at the very topend and the high end, that
little spike that adds that highend top end ring noise on top
(49:46):
and you can, you can totally uhhigh pass all the way up just to
get that top and then put itonto the thing you know, um, but
yeah, I'd love to do like, uh,an episode full of all of that
stuff, because it's somethingthat I'm very, very passionate
about actually.
Marc Matthews (50:03):
Yeah, and a side episode on our joint
appreciation with NewcastleUnited as well.
Michael Oakley (50:08):
Let's do that, like, let's do that.
Then, when my album comes out,we'll do a sort of a production
centric.
Yeah, that'd be cool-centricthing.
Yeah, that'd be cool man, andI'll send you over the ideas
that I have so far.
The finished masters, yeahthat'd be great.
Marc Matthews (50:28):
Yeah, that'd be fantastic.
So it's been a pleasure havingyou on again.
Again, audience listening.
Do go check out episodes 53 and54 and see if anything has
changed as well.
It'll be quite interesting.
I did that with Ed's sunglasses.
We did it a year later to seehow things had gone, so we won't
(50:52):
leave it so long in betweennext time, I think.
But I'll leave you to enjoy therest of your day, michael.
It's been a pleasure and folkslistening.
Until next time, stay inspired,keep creating and keep
experimenting inside the mix.
What if the real reason your songs aren't
connecting isn't your production, but your process?
A wise man once shared apowerful piece of advice from
Max Martin Don't overthink asong until its third rewrite.
It's a reminder that even thebiggest hitmakers wrestle with
the question should you chaseperfection or trust the initial
spark?
Today, in this episode,returning guest Michael Oakley
(00:22):
and I unpack that question andmore.
If you've ever struggled withwhen to stop tweaking a song,
whether to write more or better,or how to stay authentic in a
high output world, this episodeis for you.
Michael Oakley (00:36):
You're listening to the Inside the Mix podcast
with your host, Mark Matthews.
Marc Matthews (00:40):
Welcome to Inside the Mix, your go-to podcast for
music creation and production.
Whether you're crafting yourfirst track or refining your
mixing skills, join me each weekfor expert interviews,
practical tutorials and insightsto help you level up your music
and smash it in the musicindustry.
Let's dive in.
Hey folks, welcome back toInside the Mix.
(01:02):
I'm thrilled to be joined onceagain by Scottish synth-pop
maestro, Michael Oakley.
He's now based in Canada andhe's signed to New Retrowave
Records.
Michael, that was a long introfor me.
Welcome back.
How are you?
Michael Oakley (01:16):
Good, yeah, thanks for having me back.
Yeah, I enjoy doing these sortof things, because doing these
sort of things because, you know, in a world where it was social
media, where it's all about howpeople look rather than how
they are behind the scenes withthe process, you know, people
see my social media.
(01:37):
I don't really post a lot.
I'll maybe post the odd pictureif I'm in the studio or
something, or my cats or astupid meme, but I care more
about this type of materialbecause I feel like this is the
sort of thing that has value forpeople listening.
(01:58):
You know, musicians, producers,writers, and you know I don't
think of myself as a finishedarticle.
You know, I really think thatI'm still learning and still
working towards, um, not a goal,but staying in the zone where
you are able, where you're ableto have enough energy to pull
(02:21):
from places in order to get theideas from here and here into
here.
Um, and that's the mostimportant thing, um, and I just
I love the idea of peoplegetting something of value that
helps, uh, their creativeprocess out of these types of
things, you know yeah, I totallyagree.
Marc Matthews (02:43):
I totally agree and, uh, that's why I love doing
these interviews and gettingthese sort of behind this,
behind the scenes, almostpsychological conversations
about the process, not justabout mixing techniques, you
know, and and music productiontechniques that you can employ,
but also there's the psychologybehind songwriting and music
production as well, which Ithink is incredibly important.
(03:03):
Before we dive into it, folks,if you want to catch our first
chat, check out episodes 53 and54.
This is episode 207, just for abit of context.
So it was a while ago where wedove into synthwave production
and getting started as an indieartist and, as I mentioned, in
this episode we're going to godeeper with what's the line
(03:24):
between refining your craft andoverthinking it into the ground.
So we're going to be talkingabout songwriting strategies and
everything else as well.
So the idea for thisconversation stemmed from a reel
that you sent me from anotherpodcast, and apologies if I
pronounce this podcast wrongbecause, hands in the air, I
(03:44):
haven't listened to the actualepisode, but the podcast is
called I think I'm going topronounce this with a slightly
Scandinavian tone Soda, soda,jeker.
I could be totally wrong there.
It's S-O-D-A-J-E-R-K-E-R onsongwriting podcast.
So again, apologies if I got itwrong.
So the reel anyway.
(04:04):
Podcast.
So again apologies if I got itwrong.
Uh, so the the real anyway waswhere gary barlow of take that
talks about advice from maxmartin and, to paraphrase, he
said you should overthink andrework every song.
So my question to you, michael,is do you often go through
multiple sort of rewrites of atrack and at what point do you
feel like you've taken a song asfar as it can go?
Michael Oakley (04:36):
I absolutely will go through at least 12, 13,
14 drafts of an idea before Ieven start to say, yeah, this is
where it needs to be.
And usually by that point, um,I get other people involved to
take a listen.
Um, you know, I work withpeople like, uh, john conco he's
uh of new division.
I probably mentioned this inthe last podcast, I forget, but,
(05:00):
um, but I like to work with alot of the same people.
So Olly Rye, dana, jean Phoenix, and I always let them hear the
ideas and say what do you think?
What would you do at this stage?
Or is anything sticking out atyou that you think isn't working
(05:23):
?
Because when you work onsomething for that length of
time let's say you get to drafteight and you've probably heard
the idea about 600, 700 timesplayed over and over and over
because you've been working withit and then you start to, um,
you start to get blind.
(05:45):
It's a little bit like when youspray aftershave and then after
15 minutes you can't smell itanymore because you've become
nose blind, yeah, yeah.
And it's like that, it's likeyou start to become.
It's a myopia takes over andyou can't hear it anymore, and
so what you need to do is getsomeone else I mean, I like
(06:08):
someone else to come and listenand give me feedback, and
because they usually give me anobservation that I haven't
considered or they break thatmyopia and and like most
recently, I was working on us ona track and I really liked the
drums.
I thought the drums soundedreally nice.
And then I took it to JohnKunco and he said he said those
(06:31):
drums don't work, the kick andthe snare do not sound like they
really belong in this world.
And at first there's thatlittle, you know, there's a
little push back inside.
You feel like I like that, Ilike those drums.
And then, as I sat with it andhe demoed some alternative kicks
(06:54):
and snares for me, I started tocome around and go, yeah,
you're right, you're right.
Actually I'm going to have togo on a hunt now to basically
find an alternate.
And it's funny because you know, see, when you, when someone
shifts that little shift ofperception and it actually, it
actually uh, extends the life ofhow many more hours you have of
(07:17):
enjoyment when you're workingon the track because someone's
broke you out of a, let's say, aroadblock and then you feel the
energy come back to to want towork on it again, because you're
oh, I know what to do with thisnow and you know it's a bit
like that.
So, um, yeah, I go throughabout 12 or so, maybe more,
(07:38):
drafts, um, of a song before Istart to be happy with it.
I guess I mean, yeah, it's,it's, it's a frustrating process
.
I think I I heard a great pieceof advice, uh, and someone was
talking about the differencebetween an amateur and a
professional.
Right, so, or, or sorry, let'ssay a better word is a hobbyist,
(08:02):
or sorry, let's say a betterword is a hobbyist.
A hobbyist and say, like anamateur or professional, someone
on the road to try, like, I'mtaking this seriously and I want
to get better.
So the hobbyist will work onsomething because it's fun, and
when it stops being fun, theystop because it's a hobby, it's
(08:26):
supposed to be fun.
But an amateur or professional,semi-professional, someone on
the road to like, I really wantto unravel the secret of how to
make a great production or agreat track.
When the thing starts off beingfun, it's an experiment.
But then it stops being fun andit becomes frustrating.
(08:52):
And you, you know you, you workon it.
One day you're in a certainmood, you enjoy it because
you're in that mood.
When the amateur,semi-professional person hits
that frustration, you knowyou're in a certain mood, you're
feeling melancholic and thatlends itself to the vibe that
(09:16):
you've been going for for thetrack and it works.
But then what happens thefollowing day?
When you know you get up, yougo out for a walk, you watch a
movie and your moods changed andyou're no longer melancholic.
Now you are in a completelydifferent, you're jovial and a
more fun mood and you go back totry and work on that track with
(09:38):
that slightly somber tone.
Your energy does not match withthat song.
So you, there's a moment whereyou think this sucks, this idea
is not as good as I thought itwas.
This idea, this idea doesn'tfeel the same as it felt
yesterday.
Maybe it's not good, wrong,your moods changed.
(09:58):
So, in the same way, if I'mwalking around listen to stuff
on Spotify, depending on whatmood I'm in, I'll listen to a
certain playlist, a certainartist, a certain song that fits
my mood.
But somehow we know that whenwe're looking for entertainment,
but we don't recognize that asa creative.
When we are making music, it'san immediate oh, this idea sucks
(10:22):
, I'm not feeling it anymore.
Of course you're not feeling it.
Your mood's changed.
It's a bit like uh, georgeHarrison got great advice.
I've got all these anecdotesbecause I am obsessed with that.
I'll take wisdom wherever I canfind it, whether it's the
Beatles, gary Barlow, barryManilow, uh, you know, I don
(10:44):
don't care, I'll take any wisdomwhere I can find it and apply
it.
And George Harrison said he wasasking John Lennon for
songwriting advice.
And John Lennon said that exactthing.
That's where I got it from.
He said if you come up with agood idea, stay with that idea
for as long as you can and getas much of it down on paper and
(11:07):
as much of it developed, becausetomorrow you will wake up and
you'll feel differently.
Because that's what we're likeas human beings.
You know you sad one day, happythe next.
The following day I'll need tojoin the gym because I'm
motivated and I want to get fit.
Falling day nah, I'm just notgoing to bother, I'm just going
to have ice cream.
We're a very capricious speciesand that, so we have to
(11:33):
recognize that when we're beingcreative.
So to try and bring this allhome is stay the course.
That's why I mean people mightask, why the hell would you do
12 drafts, 20 drafts of a track?
Isn't that obsessive?
(11:53):
Isn't that a pursuit ofperfection that doesn't exist?
Yeah, it's my perfectionbecause it's my song and it's my
production and at the end ofthe day, you know and I mean
this in the nicest, mostrespectful and courteous way
possible I don't write music forother people.
I know that people who are fanslike to sort of think that about
(12:17):
their favorite musicians.
But I promise you, if I wrotemusic specifically for what I
thought was the fan base, mymusic would suck.
It would be the most bland,generic, crappy, mcdonald's
hamburgers level music.
(12:38):
And that's why, for me, I enjoythe process and I even enjoy
the struggle.
And I even enjoy the struggle,I even enjoy that frustration of
oh, why isn't this working?
You know, why can't I get thisbridge section to sort of gel
back to the final chorus?
What is wrong here?
Oh, it's, you know, the drumfill before we go back.
(13:03):
It's the melody line hasn'tresolved, it's the chords just
don't do the right thing.
Maybe I need to do a sus chord,then the major bam back in and
that's what lends it back.
Like there's various techniquesto smooth things around, and
it's like that with with draftsof songs you torture yourself.
It's like that with drafts ofsongs you torture yourself, but
(13:25):
that's what you've got to do.
It's not supposed to be fun atthat stage.
At that stage it's aboutbuilding the perfect beast.
You're like making Frankenstein.
Marc Matthews (13:39):
Yeah, I totally agree.
A lot of what you said thereechoes so many conversations
I've had on the podcast.
So go right back to thebeginning about like your circle
of support, as it were.
So you've got that regulargroup of artists that you're
sending your ideas, your draftsto for feedback, and it's
something that I've uh pleatedfor one of a better way putting
about about it on the podcastnumerous times to have that
(14:01):
supportive network of peoplethat you trust their opinion
that you trust to then come backhonestly and openly with
critique and feedback on your,on your track.
And it's something that I talkabout again all the time on the
podcast and with other, withother artists as well and I
would.
Michael Oakley (14:17):
I would add one thing to that as well which I
think because we had a littlechat before this podcast about
football.
Right, we did Now.
When I used to play football, Iwasn't very good, but I used to
play with people who werebetter than me, because that's
what would allow me to developand sharpen and become better.
(14:40):
And the people I work with areall better than me, like I think
they're all better than me.
You know, oli Ride is a farbetter songwriter than I am.
John Kunkel is, you know, six,seven, eight, nine, ten times
the musician producer I am.
You know, dana Jean Phoenix aswell what an unbelievable,
unbelievable, incrediblytalented, way better singer than
(15:03):
me.
Same with ollie.
So I surround myself with peoplewho I perceive as being way
better than me and by being intheir presence and getting their
advice, I know it's going tohelp, you know, elevate anything
I do to a better level.
Because if every single one ofus signs off on the song and
says, like it, love it, love it,love it, it's got the best
(15:27):
chance.
And I'm thinking, yeah, I'mconfident with this, this is
this, this is, this is where itshould be.
Uh, this is, this is exactlywhere it should be, and and
that's why I always like to workwith people who I you know, um
think are at a higher level orbetter than me, if you know what
I mean.
Like just you know, it's thatfootball thing, you know.
Play with players that arebetter if you want to improve
(15:49):
and I've definitely improvedthrough being in their presence,
you know.
Marc Matthews (15:54):
Yeah, it reminds me of when I started playing
guitar and I was learning toplay guitar and I was playing
along to tracks and Total GuitarMagazine, playing along getting
all the tabs and whatnot.
But it wasn't until I joined aband with other musicians that
were better than me that I waslike okay, and when I went in
the studio as well to record andreally shone a spotlight on
(16:16):
what I needed to improve on.
But yeah, just being with othermusicians, the path to
progression just sped up.
So so much because you realizewhere your deficiencies are and
obviously they're there also toto help you and you bring you up
as well as the rising tides.
Something with boats comearound with the analogy, but
something along those lineslifts or boats or something like
that.
(16:37):
Um, but what you said aboutthere, about the 12 or 13 drafts
and then staying in the zoneand continuing on with the idea
for as long as you can, itreminds me of a conversation I
had with, I believe, our sharedfriend Ed Sunglasses Kid.
Oh, yes, I think that was acouple of years ago and he said
the same thing.
He said you've got to break theback of it.
(16:58):
I'm fairly certain that's whathe said, and you got to continue
because, like you said there,sometimes it's not going to be
fun, but you've got the idea.
You just need to continue withit because that that idea was
there for a reason and you justjust continue with it for as
long as you can.
Michael Oakley (17:15):
So it's really it's like.
It's like indiana jones movies.
You know, like the, the, the,like the thing with Indiana
Jones in the first movie wherehe's in pursuit of something the
Holy Grail, you know, the stone, the artifact.
You've got to think of yoursong as being like an Indiana
Jones movie.
You know you're going to haveto run and the big boulder's
(17:35):
going to come and you've got tojump out the way.
But if you can manage to get tothe top of that summit and get
that rare bird egg that you'vebeen trying to achieve and you
suffered for it it's worth it.
You are in pursuit ofperfection.
I mean, the interesting paradoxis that by the time I get there
(17:58):
and I finish the song and weall say this is great.
I actually hate it and I can'tlisten to it, for you know, I'm
the same.
Yeah, I mean I'll listen to themaster when I get the master
back and I'll enjoy the masterfor a little bit, just to sort
of, you know, hear it in itsabsolute fullest.
But after that I usually can'tlisten to my music for six
(18:19):
months to a year after itbecause I have to, just I have
to like shake it off me.
It's kind of it's a, it's a,it's a weird.
It's almost.
The price I pay is that I nolonger get to enjoy it, but
other people hopefully do andthat's worth it.
And then years later I've youknow, I don't really.
I don't really listen to my oldsongs, but if ever I come back
(18:42):
and listen to it.
I've been working on doingreworks of my old songs for a
live show and coming back tolistening to those old songs and
I'm thinking, yeah, I mean,there's a couple of things I
would change.
Because there's always thatpart of me that thinks, yeah,
maybe I would turn that snaredrum up, maybe I would have
turned the vocal down a bitthere, maybe I would have.
(19:03):
But the fact that I'm askingthose questions means that I
have that almost perfectionistthing about me where I'll never
be happy.
It's just, you've got to drawthe line under the whole thing
at some point and say thelistener is not going to get any
(19:23):
more benefit out of this frommy incessant fiddling.
You know they don't care ifthat guitar part is minus 25
left or minus 14 left, theydon't care, they don't get
anything out of it.
They're not going to go totheir friends and say oh my God,
wait till you hear this track,you will not believe how panned
left that guitar is Do you knowwhat I mean.
Marc Matthews (19:46):
Yeah, yeah, it's something I've said on the
podcast many a time.
When it gets to like bingeediting or binge revisions, and
you're like, does anyone reallyknow that you've automated that
vocal down by 0.5 dB, that, thatpre-chorus, that, no, like no
one.
Michael Oakley (20:01):
Only you know that only I know, and but it's.
It's the thin line between doesthe listener get anything out
of this?
Versus can I go to bed at nighttonight and sleep okay, knowing
that that vocal is where it isand that's the if I, if I walk
around and every time I hear thedemo and I think, oh, that is
annoying me.
I had one song actuallyrecently where the snare drum I
(20:28):
had it mastered, had the wholething finished and then I was, I
left it and then I went back toit and I actually bought these
headphones, these Bose, quietcomfort headphones, and I was on
a flight to Los Angeles and I Iwas listening to the uh, the
demos, or the sorry, thefinished masters of the new
album on on these headphones anduh, and the snare drum, I was
(20:49):
like oh no, I don't, I don'tknow if that's right.
And I had to go to my friendjames's house and listen to his
on his adam a7 speakers and Isaid and I didn't even prompt
him, I just said do you hearanything?
I'm not going to tell you whatit is, but something's bugging
me about this he said that snareis like it's sticking out
(21:13):
really obnoxiously, like there'sa frequency that just seems to.
Every time the snare hits itjust makes your eyes go, yeah,
yeah and.
And I was like, oh, but becauseI went back to the mix and
rolled off some of the the eq onit on the high end it was
really a lot of the high was Ihad to soften it down.
(21:34):
I used um, smooth too, you knowthat, uh, plug-in, uh, baby
audio sooth or whatever it'scalled smooth operator, sorry,
and and just softened the snaredown it.
But I actually went back intothe chorus and then changed a
couple of the layers because Iusually like to layer sounds,
and it was that it was actuallya prompt for me to go back and
(21:56):
actually go.
You know what that snare andthe chorus could be better.
But now when I listen to thetrack actually it's one of the
few tracks that I listen to ofmine that I don't hear anything
volume wise or production wisethat I would change, and that's
kind of rare for me.
You know, I usually do listenback and think I wish, I wish
I'd done this.
But then I think if I had, if Ihad done that maybe it's the
(22:19):
grass is greener I would besitting, sitting thinking I wish
I'd done the thing I wasoriginally doing.
Marc Matthews (22:24):
Yeah, it's interesting that you mentioned
that there, because it kind ofmoves on.
It segues nicely onto my nextquestion, which is have you ever
polished a song so much, orreworked or worked on a song so
much revision wise that youended up losing what made it
great in the first place?
Oh yeah, how do you protect theoriginal spark, the original
idea?
Michael Oakley (22:45):
Well, I think that file was under.
Don't throw the baby out withthe bathwater.
Yes, so an idea is a good idea.
How you dress it up, however, agood idea how you dress it up,
(23:08):
however, will determine whetherit has legs.
You know whether it comesacross to the listener, because
an idea is potential.
A finished track is, you know,fully realised potential.
It's an experience for thelistener.
No one really cares aboutpotential, except you know me or
you the musician, because youcan see where it's going, but
(23:29):
you have to build thescaffolding to get it where it's
supposed to go.
So, for an example, um, one ofthe songs that I had done for my
new album.
So I started writing this albumin 2022, started working on
ideas and when I started doingit, I was going through a phase
(23:51):
where I really didn't want to doanything that sounded 80s or
retro or anything.
I just thought I just, you know, I fell out of love a little
bit with the whole processbecause I felt boxed in slightly
by synth waves and genrelimitations and and I just felt
like, after do I done threealbums in five years, which for
(24:14):
me, is quite that's reallyproductive for me, and I felt
like I needed some time awayjust to forget about making
music.
And then, when I came backafter a year off, I had worked
on some other sample packprojects, worked with a couple
of other people on their songs,so that it wasn't about me
necessarily and my music cameback and the first idea that I
(24:39):
came up with it was very, verydifferent to anything that I'd
ever done before.
It sounded kind of like mid tolate 2000s electronica sort of
thing, like Ulrich Schnauss,that sort of thing, taiko, early
taiko, and I liked the idea.
(25:01):
But once the song had beenwritten and I recorded my vocals
for it and then I startedworking on other songs, I
realized that this idea doesn'twork anymore.
The song works, but the, thedress up, the clothing of the
song does not work.
And uh, I mean I guess that'smore of an example of, you know,
(25:28):
like a, a heavy metal musiciandeciding to do drum and bass.
It's a bit like what the hellare you doing?
I mean you can't do that andand not that, I am not that I
feel too like like I have tostay in a certain thing, it's
just.
(25:48):
It's just that for that type ofthing I should really have set
up another project and, set youknow, made it clear oh, this is
more 2000s year two year, 2kelectronica.
Marc Matthews (26:04):
Do you mean, like with a different name?
With a different name?
Michael Oakley (26:06):
yeah, like a different moniker, because of
how different it was, and I hadalready sort of shifted as well.
My musical sensibilities hadreally shifted by that point.
I went to an event in Floridacalled Neon and I fell back in
love with the synthwave sceneand the music and stuff.
(26:28):
And when I came back from thatI felt like I had become
realigned again with what Iwanted to do and the type of
album that I wanted to do, and Iwanted it to sound a bit more
Eurodance, early 90s kind ofthing in there and I wasn't so
rejecting of synthwave things.
(26:49):
I realized there's a way I can,I can do this now that makes
sense.
But that song no longer worked.
So I essentially had to go andremix this song that I no longer
cared for.
Really, I like the song as inthe lyrics, the melody line, the
(27:12):
structure, the verse, thechorus, all that stuff.
However, I now had to go backand essentially remix this song
and I tried to do it.
I did about three versions andit wasn't working.
Something was just not workingand I nearly gave the song away
(27:34):
to somebody else to essentiallyrework it for me, because I
started to feel like maybe Ican't do it.
Maybe I'm, maybe I've got tooclose to this and maybe I can't
hear it anymore.
Maybe someone else'sinterpretation of that maybe
would give it new life.
But then I also thought, well,if I do that then it's not me,
(27:54):
is it?
It's not me anymore.
I'm literally someone'sremixing me and I'm putting it
out as if it's my original song.
So I thought I'll give it onemore go and I came up with
something that sounded a bitmore like New Order Technique
album meets Pet Shop Boys kindof thing, and that's where it
(28:17):
started to work.
And that's when I thought, yeah, this is working.
Now this is actually startingto sound the way it's supposed
to sound and and I'm really gladthat I stuck with it because I
love that track and I realizenow that if I ditched that or
gave it away, I would never havegot to this feeling of
(28:37):
accomplishment with the song,because it was it's probably the
toughest experience I've hadwith a with a song.
Because it was it's probablythe toughest experience I've had
with a with a song, becausewhen, when you've done a whole
song like that and recorded itand you've hired session
musicians to play guitar on it,and then you're like this isn't
gonna work now.
I've spent money on this.
Yeah, like you know, I've putin a thousand hours on this.
(28:58):
You know what the hell am Igoing to do now?
But I'm glad I did, becausewhen you hear it it makes sense.
It makes sense in the contextof the album now, whereas if I
had went with the old version itwould have sounded like
completely out of place.
You know, it's a bit like thatwho's that band?
(29:20):
Who's the band that did thatsong?
More than words, was it extreme?
Marc Matthews (29:25):
is that what they're called?
Yes, yeah, it was.
Yeah, yeah right.
Michael Oakley (29:27):
That song is absolutely nothing like anything
else on the album.
It kind of tricked peoplebecause it was this ballad on an
acoustic guitar and the rest ofthe album is this heavy rock
album when people turn up at thegig and they play the rest of
the music and they're like,because I like extreme.
Marc Matthews (29:46):
And then you get the whole audience is there and
they're wanting more than words.
Yeah, you've got all theseother songs and they don't
correlate with more than words.
That was around the time whereevery band just was chucking out
a ballad, wasn't?
Michael Oakley (29:58):
it, yeah, exactly poison.
Every rose has its thorn andevery rose has its thorn and and
.
But it's that whole thing of Ithought, well, I can't really
put this on the album like that.
You know, and I did, I did likethe previous arrangement, but
it just did not work.
For because I like to have analbum that feels cohesive, um, I
(30:20):
like, I like there to be, um, asimilar family of sounds across
the album.
That is what makes that albumsound like that album and uh,
and so that's the closest Ithink lately that I've had to,
to that scenario of um, it gotto a point where I just I
(30:41):
couldn't hear it anymore.
But then, by starting from theground up and I mean literally
with just starting with thevocals and really building it
from the back, you knoweverything it started to open up
again.
It started and I started tohear it in a new way and I
started to add some things,which, because the song is
(31:04):
called School and it's kind ofabout when I was at high school
and my experience of that, and Imanaged to add some like
musical things in there, thatsort of complement like Pink
Floyd with sound effects andthings like that.
It complements that.
It complements that ambientworld of that sort of thing now
and and yeah, you'd have to hearit, but to hear the two side by
(31:27):
side to compare, I don't eventhink I've got the the previous
version, because as soon as Igot the new version, delete
that's.
That's six gigabytes off of mydropbox.
Marc Matthews (31:35):
Bye, bye you know , don't blame you, uh.
So I mean that that's a clear uh.
What you mentioned there inthat, in that story, is kind of
that classic sort of how toreinvigorate your love for what
it is you were doing before, totake some time away and work on
something different.
It reminds me of I'd say itreminds me of any kind of
similar to the beatles, wherethey did that whole, when they
(31:57):
went over to india and then cameback and they experienced that
and they came up with these newsounds and these new soundscapes
Slightly tenuous link there,but the idea that you go away
and then you work on somethingelse, you come back and you also
you went to that gig as well Uh, that that festival to reignite
your sort of passion, as itwere, for that sort of retro,
(32:17):
that 80s and 90s as well 90ssound as well in there as well
and sticking with it.
I think it's a key example ofwhat we mentioned earlier about
sticking with an idea and thatprocess of reworking, because
there's something there.
You just got to stick with it.
Michael Oakley (32:36):
Honestly, the hardest thing is doing that, I
think, think, sticking with it,because you don't feel like
doing it and you, you know you.
You want to just go on facebookand doom scroll, or you want to
go and play video games, or youwant to go out and just do
anything.
That's a distraction becausethere's an uncomfortableness,
but I promise you that there's.
(32:58):
There's no such thing as afeeling of accomplishment
without first having to put inthe hard work.
It's like exercise, you know I.
You know like small weightsbecause I like just general
strength training.
But if I haven't done it for,you know know, a few weeks and
(33:20):
I'm back to being that weaklevel again.
The last thing I want to do isstand for, you know, 45 minutes
to an hour, bored out my mind,lifting weights to some video on
YouTube.
I'm just thinking.
I said I'm bored, like I, likeI.
I'm not being mentallystimulated.
This is me just being literallyin service of hoping that later
(33:45):
I will get the benefit fromthis.
I'm doing this right now.
It's uncomfortable, it'sunpleasant.
You're lifting these weightsand, oh man, I just want to go
upstairs and do something elseor go outside and do something
else, but you get the payoff ina few days, when you feel a
little stronger, and the payoff?
I mean, I think that's thething.
(34:06):
What's the payoff from stayingwith it?
Well, hopefully you get yourtrack to where you want it to be
, but you start to create a newhabit and that habit is
resilience, because you're notsomebody that's going to cop out
when things get tough.
You're someone that's going tosay you know what?
I'm going to take this idea andI'm going to fucking get it to
(34:28):
where it needs to be, andnothing's going to stop me.
And if it doesn't work today,that's fine, I'll have laid some
groundwork that will help metomorrow.
You have to think of it like acompass, even if the thing you
have in front of you in your DAW, the ideas that you have, the
drum arrangement, the basspattern and the structure, even
(34:54):
if that is not quite what it'ssupposed to be great, that's
feedback.
That's not what it's supposedto be.
Great, that's feedback.
That's not what it's supposedto be.
So you now know you need to goin another direction.
You know the worst positionever with people with writer's
block is they have an empty DAW.
There's nothing in it.
(35:15):
There's just a couple of blanktracks, nothing laid down.
They're sitting there in frontof the keyboard here and what do
I do?
What am I going to do?
And there's nothing, there's.
There's no map, there's nopoint on a map, there's no
compass, it's just.
I don't know what to do,because you know.
So what do you do?
(35:36):
You start to.
You start to map the terrain.
You start to.
So what do you do?
You start to map the terrain,you start to load a plugin,
flick through presets until youfind something that you go,
that's nice, there's the startof, there's the first point in
your map.
Well, that's nice, that's anice bass sound.
Let's keep that.
Get another plugin, start to gothrough until you find, oh,
there's a really nice pad sound.
There you go, there's anotherdestination on the map.
(36:00):
Does that pad work?
Nice with the bass?
Oh, yeah, great, let's start tolay down some, some drums, even
if the drums aren't quite whatyou're going to use.
Let's just get something going,just to.
Yeah, I think that's the keythere.
Set, uh, set, the course.
You know, tempo is a good one aswell.
Do I want a 90 bpm chilled kindof vibe?
(36:23):
Do I want a 115 beats perminute kind of mid-tempo dance
kind of track.
Do I want a faster, 130 beatsper minute to 160 beats per
minute, kind of up tempo,kindpo-y, kind of energetic
thing.
All of these things like whatyou do is you just commit early
(36:45):
to something and if later on yousay I don't want to be this
tempo, cool, let's go back down.
I had one song actuallyrecently that I was working on
and it was about 100 beats perminute and I had done the whole
arrangement.
Because one of my philosophieson this album is if I do start
(37:07):
an idea, finish it, don't ditchit.
Finish the idea, and if itdoesn't work, cool.
But I'm training myself to sayI'm going to finish this idea
and if I don't use it, okay, Ican give this idea to someone
else and they can maybe use it,you know, but just setting that
habit of finishing an idearather than going yeah and then
(37:29):
you have a folder full of youknow 64 bars of nothingness.
You know, maybe a verse, and averse and a chorus that goes
nowhere, um, so anyway, thisidea, um 100 beats per minute,
finished the whole thing.
It was like, honestly, there'sabout easily over 100 tracks in
(37:49):
the DAW with all the effects.
I had got it mixed andeverything and, uh, I was
working with Oli Ride on it andI let him hear it and he said
this should be faster, thisshould be 116 beats per minute.
We should turn this into adance track, like a more kind of
(38:10):
mid kind of tempo dance track.
And you know, that way I'mthinking oh, but I've just
fucking done this.
But it's 100 beats per minute,like I've just spent all this
time working on it.
And he said send me the stems.
And so I sent him like stemmedstuff, you know the drums, bass
pads and all that stuff and hesaid I'll let you hear an idea
(38:33):
that I've got.
And he basically rebuilt it ata different, higher tempo,
changed things around, and thenwhen he did that, I could hear
it, I could hear it, and then atthat point it was just a case
of time to delete things that,that, that, that and that
doesn't work.
Delete that out of the session.
116 beats per minute.
(38:54):
Let's keep what we're keeping.
Let's change the bass to be abit more up tempo and you start
to work with the arrangement tomake it fit this new landscape
and by the end of it the newversion is far superior to the
old version.
Um, you know, and I, I get itnow, I get it, it's, it's, but
it's.
Being able to do that in themoment and not say, oh, I've put
(39:15):
all this work in, this has tostay at 100.
Being locked in the compassidea is a good thing.
If you don't draw a sandbox,you just walk along the beach
aimlessly and so just commit.
110 beats per minute C minor.
Let's find 10 preset soundsthat work kind of well together
(39:40):
until you get a little melodicidea and just start, and start
moving in any direction.
Any direction is better thansitting in a blank screen.
What am I going to do?
Marc Matthews (39:53):
yeah, that is fantastic advice and it's
something I do the exact same.
I start out a track, I pick a,pick a tempo.
Uh, pick a, pick a key and thenand then move on from there.
Admittedly, I often put downthe um I.
I find myself starting with the, the, the kick and the bass.
I find a bass line is.
(40:13):
That's more so with the musicthat I've been putting out
lately myself.
But but, like yourself there,what you mentioned there about
having a folder full of ideasabout 18 months ago, I thought
to myself you know what.
I'm not going to start anythingelse, I'm just going to go back
with what I have.
This is the reason why Istarted those songs and I've
been gradually chipping intothem and releasing them and it
(40:34):
really does work.
It's that resilience is the keyword.
Michael Oakley (40:37):
What you said, it's resilience well, I can
honestly tell you that of all ofthe uh other demos that I've
ever done, that maybe didn't getfinished.
Something from those demos cameback later.
Maybe it was, maybe it was amelodic idea, maybe it was the
drums.
I thought those drums arereally nice.
(40:59):
You know, everything else isnot quite to my liking, but you
know what?
Those drums I managed to getthose drums sounding really nice
.
Those are a good jump off pointfor another song.
And I've dragged becauseobviously I use Ableton so you
can be in a session and thenopen up another session while in
(41:20):
Ableton and drag the group ofdrums to the new session and
it's like oh, there you go.
That now it's just instant,works instant.
I can just cut and paste wherethe sections need to go and then
start to work with it, but byand large there's.
It's that thing again that Isaid earlier do not throw the
baby out with the bath water,there's something in there.
(41:42):
You know, even if you found sixsounds that work really really
well together, that in itself isa massive step forward because
you've got sounds that are goingto be you know the basis for
something and they work you knowthere's a reason why people
(42:04):
like time cop and the midnightuse a lot of the same preset
sounds that they've had fromprevious songs.
There's a reason that they dothat because the sounds work
together.
Um, I mean, I don't necessarilyhave the same philosophy about
maybe recycling old sounds I'veused before.
(42:27):
I'm a little more.
I kind of tend to push awayfrom that.
I don't like to chart territorythat I've been before because I
personally don't find itinteresting in my music.
I find it interesting, you know, when they do it, because it's
it's there's a familiarness,there's a comfortableness, um,
(42:49):
but there's a reason why theyuse a lot of the same sound
palette because it works yeah,yeah, I'm much the same what you
mentioned there about thesounds.
Marc Matthews (43:05):
There's always a go-to sort of kick, hi-hat and
snare sound that I really likethis particular year.
But at the same time I'll useit, but I'll mix it slightly
differently or I might sculpt itwith time-based processing or
something along those lines,slightly differently, and the
same with the bass as well.
There's a serum bass patch thatI've used on every track, but
I'll make it slightly differentevery time, whether that's with
the LFO or the envelope orwhatever it is.
(43:27):
But there's a reason why I useit so much because, like you
mentioned, you know it works.
But again, echoing what yousaid, I just like to make it
sound slightly different.
I think that's the soundsynthesis and sampling side of
me that really likes to go inand manipulate the sonic
textures and get really hands-onwith synthesizers.
I wish I had a hardware synth.
(43:48):
I don't they're all plugins,but so but going in there and
just milling around and and thenjust moving stuff about and see
what I can come up with.
There's a song I was working onyesterday and for what I
working on yesterday and I waslistening to it.
I listened to it for a whileand there's just this sample of
a crow and I was listening so Iwas like, why have I put that in
(44:10):
there?
And at the time there must havebeen a reason why I decided to
put a crow in a breakdown, um,but I don't know where I was
going with that, but it justreminded me then of just these
different sounds and thinkingyou know what.
At the time it sounded good, sothere must be a reason I did it
.
Michael Oakley (44:25):
One thing as well about if you are going to
recycle sounds.
I mean, there's one.
There's definitely a few thingsthat I have recycled on
multiple songs on this new album, and that is a kick drum from
Oliver Power Tools because Ijust love the low end and the
(44:50):
overall sound of it.
However, whenever I've reusedit in other tracks, I've changed
the top and I've layered itwith a bit crushed top thing or
maybe more of a like a punchyattack transient thing, so that
(45:12):
the kick never quite sounds thesame, but it has the same effect
.
Same with a lot of the snaredrums as well.
I like to layer snare thingstogether, especially in the
chorus, just so that the chorusfeels like it's just got a bit
more oomph, a little more juice,and so I don't mind doing that
(45:34):
as well.
But yeah, it's funny, there areways where you can really
re-sampleple, re-effect thingsto sort of do the same thing but
sound different.
I do like serum.
I've come along to enjoyingserum and I've done quite a few
uh sound banks for serum now onsplice.
(45:54):
So it's it's.
It's that way where I've had tolearn how to use it inside out,
you know, and overcome the sortof technical obstacles that
stopped me from being able touse it to its fullest.
Marc Matthews (46:08):
It's a fantastic plug-in.
I only started using it at thetail end of last year I think it
was the tail end of last yearand it's certainly my go-to for
bass.
I would say, and then I use itfor other bits and pieces as
well.
But it is a fantastic go-to forbass, I would say, uh, and then
I use it for other bits andpieces as well.
But it's a.
It is a fantastic plug-in.
I got well aware of time here.
Um, as I say, before we westarted recording this, I said I
(46:30):
had five questions and I oftendon't get through them all, but
I think we'll have to have youback to go through the other
questions that I have here,because it'd be great to go
through them.
And I also need to give yourt-shirt a shout out as well.
I just realized you've got aResident Evil t-shirt on as well
.
Man, that's so cool.
Michael Oakley (46:47):
There's nothing more nostalgic than Resident
Evil save room music.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I loveResident Evil Would you believe
and I didn't make it, butthere's a sample pack on splice
uh, I think it's by a companycalled shaman stems and the uh.
The pack is called the saveroom and it's all music that
(47:10):
sounds like resident evil saveroom music.
Marc Matthews (47:12):
No way that's so good I'm gonna find that because
I wanna.
I wanna release a halloweenthemed tune this year, so I'm
totally gonna go find thatbecause I want to.
I want to release a halloweenthemed tune this year, so I'm
totally going to find that andthen rinse it.
Man, that'd be so good.
Um, I, as I always do with the,with these, with these chats.
Michael, if you, uh, you'vementioned uh about your new
music.
Uh, is there anything you wantto share with the audience?
(47:34):
Have you got any key dates?
Michael Oakley (47:36):
yeah, at the moment I've got a prospective
release date of 8th of May nextyear.
Just the way things have kindof worked out with me with a few
things.
It's the best and soonest timeto be able to do that.
So, yeah, it gives me more timeto come up with more ideas and
(48:01):
finish the ones that I have.
I've got most of the album doneactually.
It's just I feel like I want tocome up with a larger group of
songs to work with, to pick thebest 10 that work together
really well, and then, you know,I could use the remaining ones,
(48:22):
uh, you know, for a deluxealbum type of thing, like b-side
sort of stuff, um, you know,which is a thing, but yeah, we,
we should, uh, we should maybedo a part two.
You know, this is, this is yeahfun.
I, I definitely think so thatthere's.
Marc Matthews (48:42):
When you were talking there, there were
multiple questions that werecoming in my head, but I was
well aware of time.
So again I think, yeah, we'llget you back on to chat and go
through the other questions thatI have, because we started to
touch on, uh, mixing a littlebit there.
So it'd be quite cool to to, um, maybe do a chat a little
around that, not diving too deep, but a little bit there.
So it'd be quite cool to maybedo a chat a little around that,
(49:03):
not diving too deep, but alittle bit, on mixing as well,
because you mentioned that whenyou mentioned about 8-bit and I
remember having thisconversation on the podcast with
someone else because I'd neverreally used a bit crusher, bit
crushing, bit crusher on kicks,but I do it all the time now.
So just little bits and pieceslike that would be great to have
a chat about.
Michael Oakley (49:23):
Yeah, absolutely .
I mean, that's the thing, andI've come around to that sort of
stuff as well, because when youlook in the EQ at what an 8-bit
or say, bit, crush effect does,it's that little up at the very
top end and the high end, thatlittle spike.
That little up at the very topend and the high end, that
little spike that adds that highend top end ring noise on top
(49:46):
and you can, you can totally uhhigh pass all the way up just to
get that top and then put itonto the thing you know, um, but
yeah, I'd love to do like, uh,an episode full of all of that
stuff, because it's somethingthat I'm very, very passionate
about actually.
Marc Matthews (50:03):
Yeah, and a side episode on our joint
appreciation with NewcastleUnited as well.
Michael Oakley (50:08):
Let's do that, like, let's do that.
Then, when my album comes out,we'll do a sort of a production
centric.
Yeah, that'd be cool-centricthing.
Yeah, that'd be cool man, andI'll send you over the ideas
that I have so far.
The finished masters, yeahthat'd be great.
Marc Matthews (50:28):
Yeah, that'd be fantastic.
So it's been a pleasure havingyou on again.
Again, audience listening.
Do go check out episodes 53 and54 and see if anything has
changed as well.
It'll be quite interesting.
I did that with Ed's sunglasses.
We did it a year later to seehow things had gone, so we won't
(50:52):
leave it so long in betweennext time, I think.
But I'll leave you to enjoy therest of your day, michael.
It's been a pleasure and folkslistening.
Until next time, stay inspired,keep creating and keep
experimenting inside the mix.
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