September 23, 2025 • 36 mins
Have you ever felt stuck in an endless cycle of tweaking, adjusting, and second-guessing your music production decisions? Producer John Kunkel (aka John Grand) reveals the counterintuitive truth that many of us miss: working smarter, not harder, is often the key to finishing more tracks and creating better music.
John shares his game-changing approach to using reference tracks as structural blueprints rather than just mixing guides. By importing a track you love and mapping out its arrangement, you immediately transform that intimidating blank DAW canvas into manageable building blocks. This simple technique has helped John slash his production timeline from weeks to days, and it might just revolutionise your workflow too.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn when John explains why your sound selection decisions matter far more than your processing skills. "Your track is only going to sound as good as the choices that you make in sound selection," he explains, likening poor sound choices to painting with incompatible materials. This insight challenges the common tendency to reach for EQ and compression when the real solution might be choosing a different sample entirely.
Perhaps most thought-provoking is John's psychological observation that constantly adding layers often indicates a lack of confidence in your original ideas. Drawing inspiration from artists like Eric Prydz, he advocates for focusing on fewer, higher-quality elements that evolve through automation rather than overwhelming arrangements that exhaust listeners' cognitive capacity.
Whether you're just starting or looking to break through a creative plateau, this episode offers practical strategies to finish more music while keeping the joy in your production process.
Links mentioned in this episode:
Follow John Grand
Follow The New Division
How to Make Progressive House from Start to Finish | Splice
Ways to connect with Marc:
Radio-ready mixes start here - get the FREE weekly tips
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Follow Marc's Socials:
Instagram | YouTube | Synth Music Mastering
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Marc Matthews (00:00):
How do producers finish tracks faster, design
sounds that stand out and createmusic that connects without
needing a massive studio orendless hours tweaking?
That's the question we'reexploring in this episode, and
here's the twist the answeroften isn't working harder, it's
working smarter.
So what does that actually looklike in practice?
(00:20):
Let's find out.
John Kunkel (00:22):
You're listening to the Inside the Mix podcast with
your host, Mark Matthews.
Marc Matthews (00:27):
Welcome to Inside the Mix, your go-to podcast for
music creation and production.
Whether you're crafting yourfirst track or refining your
mixing skills, join me each weekfor expert interviews,
practical tutorials and insightsto help you level up your music
and smash it in the musicindustry.
Let's dive in.
Hey folks, welcome back, orwelcome to Inside the Mix.
(00:50):
Today, I'm joined by musician,producer, composer, sound
designer and label manager, johnKunkel, also known as John
Grand John.
Welcome, how are you?
Thanks for joining me.
John Kunkel (01:01):
Great yeah, thanks for having me.
I'm excited.
Marc Matthews (01:04):
Yeah, great, I've been looking forward to
speaking to you on the podcast,which I'll go through in a
minute Just for the audiencelistening.
Where are you joining from?
John Kunkel (01:11):
I am joining from Redlands, California, so that's
about an hour east or so from LA, basically.
So yeah, right in the heart ofSoCal.
Marc Matthews (01:20):
Love it, love it.
This is a classic britishconversation.
What is the weather like whereyou are at the moment is?
John Kunkel (01:27):
it sunny.
It's beautiful.
Right now it's like a goodcrisp 80 or something like that,
but it was pretty hot for thelast month or so, like a pretty
big heat wave's been out here,so, yeah, it's been warm nice
man, the reason I asked.
Marc Matthews (01:40):
I walked to the studio just to record this today
and it's like torrential rainhere.
So if you're watching this onYouTube, folks, and it looks
like I'm sweating, I'm not.
It's because my hoodie got wetwhen I was walking over.
It got wet through my coat, soit is not like nasty sweat
patches, but I don't think youcan see them anyway.
But yeah, cool SouthernCalifornia.
I get more and more Americans,you know what, like a trip to
(02:03):
the states and it'd be great tojust go visit all the people
I've spoken to on the podcast.
It'd be a really cool road tripand like, do the interviews on
in person?
that's like podcast bucket listyeah, you'd have to drive a lot,
probably because it's such abig area you know like you don't
have a car you're screwed oh100% man, where I say, uh bless,
the traffic over here in the ukis terrible, but then again
it's like it's you can get likeLondon.
John Kunkel (02:24):
For me it's like two hours and I chat to people
in the States and they're like,oh, that's easy, I do that every
day yeah, there's people that Iknow that drive at least two
and a half hours a day, you know, for work or whatever, and it's
, it's, it's insane, yeah yeah,yeah, 100% man.
Marc Matthews (02:38):
So I did touch on a story then that I was going
to go through.
So it's's kind of like a fullcircle story, if you will
Audience listening.
You know I've been releasingtunes for a while and recently
I've delved into the realms ofprogressive and melodic house
and that started, I reckon,around this time last year,
maybe a bit later, and thetutorial that inspired me to do
(03:00):
that was John's Splice tutorialhow to make progressive house
from start to finish, and I'llput a link to that in the
episode description.
And I went through that and offthe back of that I released a
tune called waves.
Again, I'll put that in thedescription.
So it inspired me to do that.
And then fast forward 12 monthsand, thanks to a recommendation
from Michael Oakley, who youmight remember from episode 207,
I now get the chance to sitdown with John himself.
(03:21):
So he provided the warm, warmintroduction for me.
He recommended me to talk toJohn, gave me the warm
introduction and then I put thetwo together that okay, it was
John who inspired me to go downthis route that I've been down
in the last 12 months, which islike serendipity right there.
So it's quite a cool littlestory and it kind of 12 months
and then finally get to meet theindividual who inspired me to
(03:42):
move into Progressive House,which is quite cool.
Wow, that's crazy.
Yeah, yeah, again, audiencelistening.
If you are interested in that,just do go check out that
tutorial because it's reallyreally cool.
So if you're not familiar withJohn, so I mentioned John Grant
as an alias.
He began making music at 13,affronted the critically
acclaimed synth band, the NewDivision, and in 2015 launched
(04:06):
his John Grant alias, focusingon progressive house, trance and
techno.
Beyond his artist projects,john's designed sounds for
sample magic and splice hencethe tutorial and published with
one mess, one west start, againwest one music group, dynamic
music and sony.
I know I get tongue-tied at somepoint.
It always does with theseintros.
So this episode yeah, mentionedit at the beginning.
There we're looking at sort ofcreating songs faster,
(04:29):
streamlining the process.
So what's in it for you?
Workflow hacks to help you savetime and produce more
efficiently, fresh sound designideas to spark creativity and
strategies to finish music,while keeping the process fun
and inspiring.
So I think again, that tutorialkind of inspired this again.
So I think it'd be quite coolto start with workflow
(04:49):
optimization and efficiency.
So imagine you sat there andwhen you sit down to produce,
what's your process for gettinginto an efficient flow?
What's your process to get intoflow state for producing?
John Kunkel (05:01):
Man.
Well, I mean, that's the beautyof it.
There's so many ways to goabout it, but I think the most
effective way for me is to finda track that I'm just really
into, that I'm vibing with that.
I've been, like you know,playing nonstop.
I grab that track, I stick itinto Ableton or whatever DAW you
want to stick it into, and thenI just just start copying the
(05:21):
arrangement.
I think that otherwise I'm justfiddling around, you know, for
four to eight bars or 16 bars,and then once I have an idea,
you know, then I start buildingit out.
But having that reference trackis so important because it
really does make it feel moreachievable to do something to,
or at least achieving somethingsimilar like the track you love,
(05:42):
right?
So I think a lot of it is just amental game, right?
You know, when you're able tosee the full picture of
something, you're able to sortof build out those Lego building
blocks and you kind of knowexactly where you're starting,
where you're finishing yourtrack, and it's also just like
inspirational to see that it'snot just this hidden magic,
right, it's literally right infront of you.
(06:03):
Every piece, every component ofthat track you can dial into
solo it.
I mean, now you even got stemseparation.
So if you wanted to go and stemseparate parts to really hear
how they're making those sounds,you know, I think that's that's
helpful as well, which I don'treally do, but you know, it's
just really a great way to kindof get yourself in the zone
(06:23):
without feeling overwhelmed oflike, well, now I got to figure
out where this track is going togo and and which part is the
breakdown.
Marc Matthews (06:29):
Like you know, if that track was successful your
reference track and it's donewell then you also have a good
shot of creating anothersuccessful track because of the
example that you're followingyeah, wise words and it's uh, I
got, I got that from that again,referencing that tutorial again
, but that's, I took that awayfrom that and it's something
(06:49):
that I've done now for the last12 months because it makes
perfect sense, right, uh,because I know what it's like to
to sit there with the daw openin front of you and it's a blank
canvas and it can be quitedaunting, specifically if you're
trying to find that motivation.
So having that reference trackand breaking it down in terms of
section by section really doeswork and it's helped me no end
in the last 12 months and it'ssomething I do.
And it's interesting youmentioned about the stem
(07:11):
splitter function as well,because I did that recently
because there was a particularbuild going into the drop and I
thought.
You know what?
I've got logic.
I'll use a stem separator,break it down so I can properly
sort of analyze and go in andsee what's happening there, and
it does.
It does make it infinitelyquicker.
I find it's certainly sped upmy process when it comes to
(07:32):
actually getting an idea downthat's workable and something I
want to continue working on.
So, on the flip side of that,do you, do you ever do it the
other way and not have areference track?
Was that just something thatjust doesn't suit your workflow?
John Kunkel (07:45):
I do.
Yeah, I mean, I'd say the bulkof the music that I've ever done
was without a reference track.
That was something that I onlystarted doing probably a couple
of years ago, where I was likethis is like a big unlock.
You know, this was somethingthat really helped me accelerate
my production timeline, youknow, from being able to start a
song to finish the song,whereas before it probably would
(08:05):
have taken me a couple of weeks.
You know, just doing it off ofmuscle memory and then counting
bars and all this stuff, andthen going back and forth with
labels and them saying, oh, thisbridge is too long or this
breakdown is too long, you needto cut it down.
It's like, well, why would Ikeep having these problems when
I can just go and look at thetracks that they recently signed
?
And then I could get 10reference tracks and then see,
(08:28):
you know examples of each one,like, oh, this one has this
length, this one has that length.
I could probably do somethingwith one of those examples and
then go from there.
But and you know, there's stilltimes where I'll just go in
completely, as they say, rawdogging it without any sort of
reference, and just go ham on it.
But that's usually if I have alot of time on my hands, right?
(08:49):
If I got like a full day and Igot eight hours to kill, then
sure I'll go ahead and trysomething, just having fun and
doing that.
But the reality is is I don'thave eight hours to kill to make
tracks.
I might have one or two hours aday where I can really zone in
hill to make tracks.
I might have one or two hours aday where I can really zone in,
and so the quickest shortcut todoing that is to have that
(09:09):
reference track.
Or the other thing I do is Ijust have created a bunch of
templates based off of referencetracks that I love, and then I
can just open one of those anduse that as a blank canvas.
Right, I already have my drumslaid out, I have my arrangement
markers laid out.
I might even have mixing chainson each one of the different
(09:30):
buses laid out.
So I already know that, like,all I gotta worry about is vibe
and melody and progression, andthe rest is kind of like oh, I
gotta swap out that kick or Igotta change that hi-hat or I
gotta do this, or you know yeah,kind of removing all the
friction to like that creativeprocess, the vibe as you
mentioned, that and likeachieving that sort of vibe that
you want to use.
Marc Matthews (09:52):
And I think I had this discussion with Michael,
actually because he's been onthe podcast twice, so the first
time he was on, we werediscussing his workflow and how
he follows a similar process inthat he'll have follows a
similar process in that he'llhave, let's say, serum or diva,
and then have the favorited basspatches that he wants to use
and use those just to kickstartthat creative process.
So you're not spending an hourtrying to find the perfect bass
(10:15):
or spending a couple hourstrying to find the perfect snare
, which you might whip out inthe long run anyway because it
doesn't suit the mix overall.
But going back to thatreference track, say you've
started a song, you're using thereference, you've mapped it out
and whatnot?
Do you use the same referencewhen it comes to the mixing
stage and the mastering stage?
John Kunkel (10:33):
yeah, usually it depends if it's in the same key.
So I'll always referencesomething in the same key of the
track that I'm working in.
So if I'm working on a track ing minor, I'm going to reference
the track in g minor, becausewhen I look at the frequency
spectrum of the reference track,I want to be able to compare it
accurately to my track formixing, because you know, the
most fundamental parts of a mixare usually going to be the low
(10:54):
end right.
So I want to make sure that,like my first octave bass, my
sub is aligned with thereference, my second octave bass
, my third octave bass, and it'snot so much that you're using
that as like it needs to matchexactly what that track is doing
, energy wise or whatever.
Yeah, it's a good way to beable to get yourself closer to a
ballpark mix that willtranslate most likely very well
(11:18):
across several systems, becauseyou're already using that
reference track as your NorthStar and so you can use that
track's frequency spectrum anduse things like matching EQ
analyzers, all sorts ofdifferent techniques, to be able
to get a mix that will sound asclose as possible to that club
track or to that North Startrack that you're vibing with
(11:42):
and it also just createsconsistency across your mixes.
So, if you're working on an're,you know vibing with and it also
just creates consistency acrossyour mixes.
So if you're working on like analbum, for instance, right, you
know having those differentreference tracks as long I mean
that's.
The other thing too, is that,like you have to be very
selective as well with yourreference tracks, right?
Like you don't want somethingthat's like a 90s house
reference track versus like ahouse track that was just, you
(12:04):
know, released yesterday.
Completely different mixingtechniques, completely different
.
You know mixing spectrums andwhatnot.
Marc Matthews (12:12):
So choosing your reference track is also super
important yeah, those words echoa conversation I had on the
podcast, a couple I've had onthis year, one with slay slain
shane slack, get his name rightearlier this year and he said
the same thing to find a trackin the same key.
And I think Eric Mitchell aswell, mastering engineer, said a
similar thing.
So it's a recurring theme ofthe podcast this year with
(12:33):
regards to references BecauseI've been banging on about
references now, probably sincethis is like the fifth year of
the podcast, but only this yearhas it really sort of come to
light with regards to actuallyfinding a reference in the same
key as well, which is from whatI can gather from the feedback
I've had on the podcast is oftenoverlooked.
So it's a, it's a veryimportant tip.
So, moving on slightly now,what's the what would you say?
(12:54):
I was gonna say the biggestmistake.
It sounds quite negative, butmaybe the biggest mistake or
challenge you see producers makethat slows them down.
John Kunkel (13:01):
I think the number one is the sound selection, and
this goes into sound design aswell.
But your track is only going tosound as good as the choices
that you make in sound selection, you know.
So you know, the way I like tothink about it is if you're
painting a canvas, right and youhave paint that is from this
(13:21):
brand, and then you have paintthat is from this other brand,
and maybe one of those brands islike less quality than the
other one, or maybe they'reactually not really compatible
because of the material thatthey're using right, that is
going to massively affect howthe end result will sound.
So you're, you know, ultimatelyproduction and and song and
(13:44):
songwriting and creation, atleast when it comes to
electronic music, really comesdown to the choices and
decisions that you makesonically.
So whatever you're picking,whether it be a kick hi-hat,
bass, all of that is going tocome together and create this
sort of bigger picture, and ifone of those elements is off or
not the ideal sound, then thetrack isn't going to sound well,
(14:06):
and so the biggest mistake thatI see most producers make is
they just kind of go forwhatever they think sounds good
in isolation, but maybe not incontext with each other.
So that could mean that you knowyou're going to have to make
some trade-offs, like you mayreally like this bass preset,
but that bass preset ispotentially what is ruining your
entire song.
And when you swap that basspreset out and maybe you just
(14:29):
sound design something fromscratch, that's just a simple
sine wave or a simple saw wavewith a couple of voices.
That could be the thing thatmakes or breaks your track.
And so, you know, I oftentimesand I do a lot of coaching with
different producers that are upand coming or that are just
trying to learn how to sounddesign or just learning how to
produce, you know, 90 of thetime when I, you know, when I
(14:51):
hear the tracks that they'reworking on, the first thing that
I notice is just the soundsthat they picked are just really
bad quality, or maybe they arehigh quality but they're
incompatible with one yeah, wisewords.
Marc Matthews (15:01):
Would you also say that?
Or rather, do you everexperience where you maybe find
a mix engineer or producershaving problems with a mix and
maybe it's eq or compression orsomething some of this just not
quite sitting right and itactually turns out it is like
you said it is just a poorchoice and they need to whip out
that sample and bring anotherone in or use a different patch,
versus reaching for an eq orcompression or saturation or
(15:22):
something along those lines athousand percent.
John Kunkel (15:25):
One of the things that I try to do with my
students is to teach them to notdo any mixing until they are at
the 99% stage of production,meaning that most, if you can
get to a really solid mixwithout having to do hardly any
processing, then you're already,you know, let that that, that
that means that everything thatyou've selected up to that point
(15:59):
is compatible with each otheror it's sounding good.
Now the way I see mixing isreally more like a way to
accentuate those sounds or tobring those sounds either more
forward to the front.
So I don't really see it aslike I don't really see mixing
as like a surgical exercise.
I see it more as like ahighlighting exercise of like
you know what?
I think this pad or this synthis a lead, so I want to add a
(16:22):
little bit more top end or Iwant to add a little bit more
overdrive to it, to kind of likerichen it out.
But I I, you know, with my owntracks I rarely, you know, when
I finish them and send them offto labels I don't really do that
much mixing to them.
I, I very I mean mixing in thesense of like surgical eq and
stuff like that.
Usually what I do is like I'lljust level things out.
Marc Matthews (16:42):
So it's, you know , I really do believe in just
volume fader, mixing and veryminimal, minimal, minimal eq,
and then any other eq is reallyfor for creative purposes yeah,
it's quite refreshing, taking itto be fair, because I think
again, with the podcast andspeaking to the listeners and
whatnot, I think it can be quiteeasy to fall into over mixing,
(17:02):
over processing and just doingsomething because that's what
you've seen online.
You see all these uh, you seetutorials etc.
Online.
They say do the xyz to get thisvocal, particular particular
sound and whatnot on a vocal ora kick or anything along those
lines, and I think you can justgo down a rabbit hole just over
processing, where realistically,less is more yeah, 100, and I
(17:25):
think that's the important thingis that people will sometimes
think that, well, I just added areverb and then I did some EQ,
and then I did this andcompression as mixing.
John Kunkel (17:33):
I would argue that's not mixing, that's
production.
You're trying to arrive at acertain sonic sound.
Mixing is really just aboutmaking sure that everything
flows well together.
So that's why I always tell youknow, students and stuff that
(17:54):
like, if you're producing andyou're doing EQq and you're
adding compression, you're doingthis stuff, you're really still
producing.
You're not really mixing atthat stage, because mixing is
going to be like I goteverything printed out
potentially, they're all linedup and you know the session and
I'm just really trying to makesure that everything is is is
bouncing well together, levelingout.
You know, particularly fordance music.
You know you really don't haveto do a whole lot if your sound
choices are good and and and youknow, a lot of times the reason
(18:15):
why people over mix is becausethey made bad production choices
and so that's why they end uphaving to do all these crazy
things to make the track soundgood, because they ended up over
phasing something, or theyended up adding too much reverb,
or they ended up, you know,their, their ping pong delay is
just like going so stereo thatlike they think, oh no, I gotta
(18:35):
fix this other thing and inreality, oh, your ping pong
delay is just taking up theentire stereo image.
That's, that's what's happening.
So those are productiondecisions that end up in
people's minds thinking that, um, you know, I gotta fix the mix
now, which you know.
Marc Matthews (18:48):
So yeah, yeah, it's, uh, it's a common common
thread.
I would say, having done thispodcast now for five years, a
very, very much common thread.
So moving into, like sounddesign, so we've we've touched
on it a bit here.
This is an interesting question.
Do you think every producershould dive into synthesis?
Should you have like a basicunderstanding, I guess,
specifically in the realm ofmusic, that you operate within
(19:10):
um or is focusing on presets andsamples?
Enough can you get away with Iget away is the wrong phrase,
because you don't really want tobe like making music and just
getting away with it.
John Kunkel (19:20):
Um, in my mind, yeah, I mean, it's totally
possible for somebody not tohave any sort of sound design,
synthesis sort of knowledge, butI do think that it opens up a
lot of doors and I think that ifthere's a sound that you hear
in your head and you don't wantto spend an hour looking for the
right preset for it and you canjust make it yourself, then
that's pretty powerful.
(19:41):
You know, you could saveyourself an hour.
So you know, again, I'm allabout efficiency when it comes
down to workflow.
If you have that skill set, youknow it's kind of like saying,
like, would you want to justrely on MIDI or would you want
to be a really good keyboardplayer or piano player?
Right, like, I think you wouldalways want to be able to play
(20:02):
keys really well, which I don't.
I suck at playing keys, and soit's like I have to rely on a
lot of like MIDI work and youknow, kind of like Avicii-ing it
where it's.
I have to rely on a lot of likeMIDI work and you know, kind of
like Avicii-ing it where it's.
I'm pretty much 90% in thepiano role, right, um, so would
I would like to have thatability, a thousand percent, and
I think for sound design.
It's the same thing, it's justit's a really good extra half,
(20:23):
but it's not, you know,essential, necessarily, and
that's proven by thousands ofproducers who, just um you know,
rely on, on presets and they,they, they do very well for
themselves yeah, I, um, I'm thesame.
Marc Matthews (20:36):
I'd love I'm a guitarist, so I could play
guitar yeah, but play playingpiano?
I think I tried, for whateverreason.
I thought I was listening to atrack and I was just like I'm
gonna try and play that pianotrack and then I sat down I was
like, yeah, I can, I can't evenplay piano.
What made me think I could justsit down and just bust out this
piano piece?
But I'm very much the same Ipiano roll and then trying to
(20:58):
humanize it with velocity andtiming and whatnot.
Definitely definitely down thatroute.
If you're say you're startingout, you want to get into sound
design and synthesis, can yourecommend a synth to start with
a?
John Kunkel (21:11):
vst.
Well, I mean, I think serum isa great one because you can
really see and visualize, youknow, what's happening under the
hood.
I mean that was kind of thereason why it was built is
because, you know, steve dudadidn't like how massive which
was another uh synth by nativeinstruments kind of had similar
functionality, but buteverything was not visible to
(21:31):
the person designing the presets, right.
So with Serum it's really welllaid out for you to be able to
see exactly what's happeningwhen you do, you know, a
movement of a knob or anythinglike that.
You can also see like differentwavetables which are sort of
like the bread and butter,instead of Serum, of sound
design, and it's a reallypowerful synth.
(21:55):
You know serum to particularly.
You know I've been a really bigfan of it and I've already made
like 500 presets for it sinceit came out and it's just
incredibly powerful.
If you want something a bit onthe lighter side, I would
recommend people start withsomething like spire, very easy
to sound design with.
It's got, I think, three orfour oscillators and just yeah,
you know like watch a couple oftutorials.
It's really not rocket science.
(22:16):
It's not difficult to wrap yourhead around if you dedicate
time to it.
Marc Matthews (22:21):
Yeah, I'm a serum user.
I've been using it now for thelast 18 months and I'm a massive
user as well.
Use massive less now, now thatI've got serum and there's
another one as well.
I cannot remember the name ofit and it's great for sound
design.
It's gone.
It's Arturia Pigments.
That's the one.
John Kunkel (22:40):
I was thinking of yeah, yeah, pigments is really
good too.
Yeah, that's another good one.
Marc Matthews (22:44):
Yeah, I use pigments a lot when it comes up.
I use pigments a lot when itcomes to if I want just like
really weird, like atonal orlike just random sounds, I often
reach for pigments.
But another really cool.
I think I'm probably dueupdating it to be fair, but I've
never used Spire.
Is that a paid for?
Is that a free?
It's a paid synth.
John Kunkel (23:03):
It's paid by this company called Reveal Sound and
I've used it on nearly everysingle track that I've ever done
since it came out.
It's just a very lightweight,not super CPU hungry synth and I
use it for bread and buttersound.
So if I just want like a reallysimple bass to kind of layer
under.
Or if I want to widen anothersynth by layering, I'll drop
(23:25):
Inspire quite a bit.
Another one that I'm reallyreally into is nexus, which is
probably my, my favorite synth.
Um nexus 5, I think.
It's just got so many optionsand I think it sounds
objectively better than serumpotentially.
But you know serum is just sortof like you know everyone's
go-to and there's a lot of greatpresets for it.
(23:45):
But but nexus, in my opinion,is just so powerful.
It's kind of like omnisphere oncrack.
You know it's just got like andit's and it's and it's actually
for for how powerful it is.
It's very lightweight as well.
You can run several, severalinstances of it before your um.
You know sessions start kind ofuh crackling or anything.
Marc Matthews (24:07):
Yeah, I found that with Massive.
I remember before I had my MacStudio and I was using Massive
and I've had a few instances ofthat and it was just like no,
you can stop.
You're not doing any more ofthat, but thankfully I don't
have that now.
But I think Nexus would lovethat soundbar, that description
of you of Omnisphere on crack oncrack.
John Kunkel (24:34):
Oh man, it's.
Yeah, I would highly recommendit.
I mean, it does cost a lot andthe expansion banks are
expensive, but they'redefinitely worth it and they
teach you a lot about just howthey get those signature sounds.
And you know, there's a coupleof banks that I like, like the
harman van buren bank is reallynice, the cashmere bank and
there's a bunch of melodictechno ones that I that I find
to be really inspiring.
It's's nice.
Marc Matthews (24:52):
There you go, folks, I'll put links.
I'll find links to all those.
Do go check them out in theepisode show notes.
You'll find that in the linksfor this episode.
So I think it'd be nice now tomove on to the creative process
and results phase, stage, let'ssay, of creation.
So I often ask this question toindividuals, whether it's
production, mixing or masteringbut from your experience, how do
(25:15):
you know when a track isfinished?
Let's go from the productionside of things before mixing.
How do you know when a track isfinished?
John Kunkel (25:20):
yeah, I mean, I think that's really up to every
producer to decide.
You know, I think it's quiteeasy to overdo a track and I'm
definitely guilty of that,thinking that I need to add.
Just, you know, keep layeringand adding more and more and
more.
So I don't know that Inecessarily have an answer as to
how do you know when it'sfinished.
I think you just kind of knowand you're like this is it Like
(25:43):
I don't need to do any more workto it, of lean these days more
towards not oversaturating atrack and just focusing a lot on
automation versus just addingmore and more and more stuff to
it?
Right, like I'm a big eric pritzfan, and so one of the things
that I've always noticed that hedoes is he doesn't really have
(26:05):
thousands of sounds in histracks.
He just has a few core elementsand those are always evolving,
whether it's via volumeautomation or, you know,
interesting effects and stufflike that.
So I'm definitely a big fan ofthat now, and so I think that's
also helped me finish tracksquicker is not having to think
about constant adding more andmore and more.
(26:26):
Like I'm actually reallyagainst that these days.
I now work with some people thatI won't mention that are very
much about like adding layersand layers and layers.
And then I'll be on a mixingsession with them and they'll
say, do you think I should bringthat 18th synth up a little bit
?
And I'm like, well, I didn'teven know it was there, I had to
(26:46):
go and solo it.
So there's just stuff like thatwhere it's really easy for for
you to get into your head thatyou need to keep adding stuff to
finish the track, when inreality it was probably finished
, you know, 10 sessions ago yeah, yeah, it's really interesting.
Marc Matthews (27:02):
You mentioned that about the, the individual
who um was asking about thatparticular sound, whether or not
they should bring it up in themix, and I experienced that just
recently as I was working on aproject for someone and I gave
them some feedback and I wasjust like you've got all these
sounds which I'm mixing.
John Kunkel (27:19):
And.
Marc Matthews (27:19):
I don't think you need like.
I was at the mixing stage and Ididn't want to put a producer
hat on because that wasn't myrole, but I was kind of like
you've got all these and they'rejust competing for space and
some of them you can't hear.
But it happens, doesn't it?
And I really like what you saidthere about, rather than adding
more, use, automation, movethings with regards to volume,
(27:42):
with regards to stereo placement, or whether it's automating EQ
or something along those lines.
So I really like that approachand I think it's really, really,
really good.
John Kunkel (27:50):
Yeah, and I think it's important for producers and
artists to understand a littlebit of like how psychology works
.
When you listen to music, thebrain can only process X amount
of information.
So you know, when you startadding things over and over and
over there, you know iteventually becomes a wall of
sound, right, and so the brainhas to try to.
(28:11):
You know, make eventuallybecomes a wall of sound, right,
and so the brain has to try to.
You know, make sense of thatinformation in the best way it
can.
And if the brain is telling youadd more, that usually might
mean that you need to justprobably step away from the
track.
And then, you know, give it tosomeone else and let them hear
it and then ask them do youthink this needs more or not,
instead of just like working ina silo and then just you know
layering stuff.
(28:31):
Because you know again, like the, you know your ears and your
brain can only process X amountof sounds.
You know, within a.
You know it's kind of like ifyou're watching a movie and you
try to put in four or fivescenes into one clip at the same
time, like would you know whatis happening?
You would, you know what ishappening?
You probably wouldn't, becauseeven if you had like an opacity
(28:52):
layer and you could see all likethe the different scenes
happening at the same time, your, your, your eyes wouldn't be
able to process what's going on.
And it's the same thing withmusic, right?
You know, whatever the centraltheme of your track is, that
should be the, the full focus ofthat section or of the drop or
anything else, and all the otherstuff really just takes a
(29:12):
backdrop.
And, yeah, there's going to bepeople that are going to be like
, oh, that snare is sick or thatbass tone is great.
But you know what?
What?
You know the vibe of the track,those things just, you know,
add to the vibe of the track.
They don't necessarily liketake over the front stage.
Marc Matthews (29:25):
So I think it's always important to remember
that well, you mentioned thatabout the sort of the analogy
using the film is really good.
Never thought of it that way.
So I think audience listeningif you ever are in that position
whereby you're sort of secondguessing yourself think of it in
that context that Johnmentioned there about the
central theme, and do you wantall these subplots or these side
(29:45):
quests going on at the sametime?
Can you comprehend or are youexhausting your cognitive load?
And one thing I've done moreoften than not lately for the
last 18 months now because,hands in the air, I was one of
those individuals that at onepoint would throw the kitchen
sink at stuff and then Ilistened back to some early
things and I'm like what was Ithinking there?
Why have I got so much going onthere?
I learned the hard way.
(30:06):
Now it's and, uh, it's throughthat feedback loop as well that
I experienced that.
So you mentioned there aboutsending it to someone else and
getting that feedback and and anindividual saying, coming back
and saying, actually, have youconsidered just stripping it
back and removing elementsrather than adding more?
So it really really does,really does make a difference.
John Kunkel (30:23):
It's wise words yeah, and I think that you know,
kind of going off of that topic, of the psychology of it too, I
think there's also an elementthat I've noticed from you, you
know, having worked with peopleon a coaching level is that the
more that you add to a trackusually shows that you're not
confident with the ideas thatyou began with, and so it's
almost a way to mask what youdon't feel comfortable with.
(30:45):
And so a lot of times, being agood producer is being confident
in your decisions and knowingthat whatever you're adding into
is good enough, and if it's notgood enough, then adding more
things to it isn't going to maskyour confidence.
I mean, in other words, likeyou know, good, good, good
productions come from confidentproducers.
(31:07):
In my opinion, I really dobelieve that to be true.
I think that if you're and again, like confidence is something
that takes practice, right,there's false confidence, which
is someone who comes in he'slike oh, I just made this track
and I added all this stuff to it, and then you hear it and it
sounds terrible.
Right, that's what I would calllike false confidence.
But you know, actual, realconfidence is sort of like this
(31:28):
position where you're going intoa track and you might have to
spend a lot of time gettingthere.
You know, it may not be quick,you might not be able to get
that idea for a day or a week orwhatever, but eventually you're
going to arrive at somethingwhere you have so much
confidence that, like this isgood and I don't need to put 15
layers under it for it to soundgood, right and so, yeah, that's
(31:48):
sort of like.
Another thing that I think isreally important for people to
remember is that, like if you'restarting to see yourself add a
bunch of layers to stuff to makesomething sound good, then you
weren't originally comfortablewith the first idea that you had
, and that could even be noteven on a sound design level.
That could just be like yourmelody sucks.
So you're just trying to likemake it sound good even though
(32:09):
the original melody is not greatto begin with's kind of like
polishing a turd right as theysay so yeah, making a, as we say
over here, a silk purse out ofa sal's ear is is one of the
phrases that comes to mind.
Marc Matthews (32:21):
I don't know if that translates in the us.
It might do.
I think it does, but it's onethat we say a lot over here.
But it makes perfect sense.
There's like audiencechallenges.
I've got a challenge for youguys listening.
So pick one unfinished trackfrom your hard drive and commit
to finishing it.
I've got this week.
I mean, obviously you can do itseven days if you want, with a
stripped down approach.
So cut all the fluff, focus onthe essentials and get that
(32:42):
track finished.
Based on the sort of discussionthat John and I have had here
today in this episode.
John, it's been an absolutepleasure.
There's loads of this.
I appreciate we're at 35minutes already and I did say I
very rarely get through all thequestions that.
I have what I've got writtendown.
This always happens, but Ithink it'd be great if you could
maybe talk a bit about whatyou're up to and also where the
(33:02):
audience can find you online ifthey want to learn more about
you and what you're.
John Kunkel (33:07):
Yeah, so I am putting out a John Grand album
pretty soon and then I juststarted a new project with my
bandmate, alex Gonzalez, fromhe's in another band really
great band called Matt Black.
They do industrial and sort oflike darker kind of music, but
we just started a techno projectcalled Unterstrom.
So I'm kind of putting most ofmy energies into that lately and
(33:31):
then still doing new divisionstuff.
Just did an EP that's comingout next month and then, yeah,
just you know, constantly doingsound design, producing, mixing
and mastering friends andfriends and family and other
people out there.
So, yeah, you can find me onInstagram at John Grand Official
.
Can find me on instagram atjohn grand official.
(33:55):
You can follow unterstrom,which is, like I said, more
techno leaning.
Uh at, we are unterstrom oninstagram and uh, yeah, I think
those are usually the defaultplaces folks can find me on.
Yeah, fantastic.
Marc Matthews (34:03):
I'll put those links in the episode description
and audience listening.
If you're not familiar with thenew division, go check out
argyle.
It's, uh, there's a vocalsample in that.
I think it's a vocal sample.
It might actually be a vocalist, uh, but it's.
It's such a cool sample and itinspired me this week to think
you know what?
I'm gonna find something likethat myself in the track that
I'm working, working on in a fewweeks.
(34:24):
Uh, I wish I could time stampthe sample I'm thinking of, but
I can't.
I can't think of it?
John Kunkel (34:28):
was it like the little lead one on the choruses
maybe, or something?
Marc Matthews (34:33):
I think so it's not actual words, it's just like
a it's like a yeah, yeah, yeah,I was gonna try to see it.
John Kunkel (34:41):
Yeah, I think it was just a one shot that I put
on on like a multi-sampler nice,it's so cool.
Marc Matthews (34:48):
I was gonna try to sing it then, but but then I
can't sing, man, I wish I could.
Fantastic stuff, john.
Thank you very much.
Audience, do go check thoselinks in the episode description
and, if you've picked up onetip that you're going to take
forward today, considersupporting Inside the Mix on
Patreon.
You'll unlock exclusive extrasand help me us keep bringing
(35:10):
these conversations every weekas well, so you can click the
link in the episode descriptionand you can join for free, for
free, for free.
John.
It's been a pleasure.
Again.
Thank you so much for takingthe time out today to chat with
me and we'll catch up again soon.
Thanks for having me.
No worries Until next time.
Folks stay inspired, keepcreating and don't be afraid to
experiment inside the mix.
How do producers finish tracks faster, design
sounds that stand out and createmusic that connects without
needing a massive studio orendless hours tweaking?
That's the question we'reexploring in this episode, and
here's the twist the answeroften isn't working harder, it's
working smarter.
So what does that actually looklike in practice?
(00:20):
Let's find out.
John Kunkel (00:22):
You're listening to the Inside the Mix podcast with
your host, Mark Matthews.
Marc Matthews (00:27):
Welcome to Inside the Mix, your go-to podcast for
music creation and production.
Whether you're crafting yourfirst track or refining your
mixing skills, join me each weekfor expert interviews,
practical tutorials and insightsto help you level up your music
and smash it in the musicindustry.
Let's dive in.
Hey folks, welcome back, orwelcome to Inside the Mix.
(00:50):
Today, I'm joined by musician,producer, composer, sound
designer and label manager, johnKunkel, also known as John
Grand John.
Welcome, how are you?
Thanks for joining me.
John Kunkel (01:01):
Great yeah, thanks for having me.
I'm excited.
Marc Matthews (01:04):
Yeah, great, I've been looking forward to
speaking to you on the podcast,which I'll go through in a
minute Just for the audiencelistening.
Where are you joining from?
John Kunkel (01:11):
I am joining from Redlands, California, so that's
about an hour east or so from LA, basically.
So yeah, right in the heart ofSoCal.
Marc Matthews (01:20):
Love it, love it.
This is a classic britishconversation.
What is the weather like whereyou are at the moment is?
John Kunkel (01:27):
it sunny.
It's beautiful.
Right now it's like a goodcrisp 80 or something like that,
but it was pretty hot for thelast month or so, like a pretty
big heat wave's been out here,so, yeah, it's been warm nice
man, the reason I asked.
Marc Matthews (01:40):
I walked to the studio just to record this today
and it's like torrential rainhere.
So if you're watching this onYouTube, folks, and it looks
like I'm sweating, I'm not.
It's because my hoodie got wetwhen I was walking over.
It got wet through my coat, soit is not like nasty sweat
patches, but I don't think youcan see them anyway.
But yeah, cool SouthernCalifornia.
I get more and more Americans,you know what, like a trip to
(02:03):
the states and it'd be great tojust go visit all the people
I've spoken to on the podcast.
It'd be a really cool road tripand like, do the interviews on
in person?
that's like podcast bucket listyeah, you'd have to drive a lot,
probably because it's such abig area you know like you don't
have a car you're screwed oh100% man, where I say, uh bless,
the traffic over here in the ukis terrible, but then again
it's like it's you can get likeLondon.
John Kunkel (02:24):
For me it's like two hours and I chat to people
in the States and they're like,oh, that's easy, I do that every
day yeah, there's people that Iknow that drive at least two
and a half hours a day, you know, for work or whatever, and it's
, it's, it's insane, yeah yeah,yeah, 100% man.
Marc Matthews (02:38):
So I did touch on a story then that I was going
to go through.
So it's's kind of like a fullcircle story, if you will
Audience listening.
You know I've been releasingtunes for a while and recently
I've delved into the realms ofprogressive and melodic house
and that started, I reckon,around this time last year,
maybe a bit later, and thetutorial that inspired me to do
(03:00):
that was John's Splice tutorialhow to make progressive house
from start to finish, and I'llput a link to that in the
episode description.
And I went through that and offthe back of that I released a
tune called waves.
Again, I'll put that in thedescription.
So it inspired me to do that.
And then fast forward 12 monthsand, thanks to a recommendation
from Michael Oakley, who youmight remember from episode 207,
I now get the chance to sitdown with John himself.
(03:21):
So he provided the warm, warmintroduction for me.
He recommended me to talk toJohn, gave me the warm
introduction and then I put thetwo together that okay, it was
John who inspired me to go downthis route that I've been down
in the last 12 months, which islike serendipity right there.
So it's quite a cool littlestory and it kind of 12 months
and then finally get to meet theindividual who inspired me to
(03:42):
move into Progressive House,which is quite cool.
Wow, that's crazy.
Yeah, yeah, again, audiencelistening.
If you are interested in that,just do go check out that
tutorial because it's reallyreally cool.
So if you're not familiar withJohn, so I mentioned John Grant
as an alias.
He began making music at 13,affronted the critically
acclaimed synth band, the NewDivision, and in 2015 launched
(04:06):
his John Grant alias, focusingon progressive house, trance and
techno.
Beyond his artist projects,john's designed sounds for
sample magic and splice hencethe tutorial and published with
one mess, one west start, againwest one music group, dynamic
music and sony.
I know I get tongue-tied at somepoint.
It always does with theseintros.
So this episode yeah, mentionedit at the beginning.
There we're looking at sort ofcreating songs faster,
(04:29):
streamlining the process.
So what's in it for you?
Workflow hacks to help you savetime and produce more
efficiently, fresh sound designideas to spark creativity and
strategies to finish music,while keeping the process fun
and inspiring.
So I think again, that tutorialkind of inspired this again.
So I think it'd be quite coolto start with workflow
(04:49):
optimization and efficiency.
So imagine you sat there andwhen you sit down to produce,
what's your process for gettinginto an efficient flow?
What's your process to get intoflow state for producing?
John Kunkel (05:01):
Man.
Well, I mean, that's the beautyof it.
There's so many ways to goabout it, but I think the most
effective way for me is to finda track that I'm just really
into, that I'm vibing with that.
I've been, like you know,playing nonstop.
I grab that track, I stick itinto Ableton or whatever DAW you
want to stick it into, and thenI just just start copying the
(05:21):
arrangement.
I think that otherwise I'm justfiddling around, you know, for
four to eight bars or 16 bars,and then once I have an idea,
you know, then I start buildingit out.
But having that reference trackis so important because it
really does make it feel moreachievable to do something to,
or at least achieving somethingsimilar like the track you love,
(05:42):
right?
So I think a lot of it is just amental game, right?
You know, when you're able tosee the full picture of
something, you're able to sortof build out those Lego building
blocks and you kind of knowexactly where you're starting,
where you're finishing yourtrack, and it's also just like
inspirational to see that it'snot just this hidden magic,
right, it's literally right infront of you.
(06:03):
Every piece, every component ofthat track you can dial into
solo it.
I mean, now you even got stemseparation.
So if you wanted to go and stemseparate parts to really hear
how they're making those sounds,you know, I think that's that's
helpful as well, which I don'treally do, but you know, it's
just really a great way to kindof get yourself in the zone
(06:23):
without feeling overwhelmed oflike, well, now I got to figure
out where this track is going togo and and which part is the
breakdown.
Marc Matthews (06:29):
Like you know, if that track was successful your
reference track and it's donewell then you also have a good
shot of creating anothersuccessful track because of the
example that you're followingyeah, wise words and it's uh, I
got, I got that from that again,referencing that tutorial again
, but that's, I took that awayfrom that and it's something
(06:49):
that I've done now for the last12 months because it makes
perfect sense, right, uh,because I know what it's like to
to sit there with the daw openin front of you and it's a blank
canvas and it can be quitedaunting, specifically if you're
trying to find that motivation.
So having that reference trackand breaking it down in terms of
section by section really doeswork and it's helped me no end
in the last 12 months and it'ssomething I do.
And it's interesting youmentioned about the stem
(07:11):
splitter function as well,because I did that recently
because there was a particularbuild going into the drop and I
thought.
You know what?
I've got logic.
I'll use a stem separator,break it down so I can properly
sort of analyze and go in andsee what's happening there, and
it does.
It does make it infinitelyquicker.
I find it's certainly sped upmy process when it comes to
(07:32):
actually getting an idea downthat's workable and something I
want to continue working on.
So, on the flip side of that,do you, do you ever do it the
other way and not have areference track?
Was that just something thatjust doesn't suit your workflow?
John Kunkel (07:45):
I do.
Yeah, I mean, I'd say the bulkof the music that I've ever done
was without a reference track.
That was something that I onlystarted doing probably a couple
of years ago, where I was likethis is like a big unlock.
You know, this was somethingthat really helped me accelerate
my production timeline, youknow, from being able to start a
song to finish the song,whereas before it probably would
(08:05):
have taken me a couple of weeks.
You know, just doing it off ofmuscle memory and then counting
bars and all this stuff, andthen going back and forth with
labels and them saying, oh, thisbridge is too long or this
breakdown is too long, you needto cut it down.
It's like, well, why would Ikeep having these problems when
I can just go and look at thetracks that they recently signed
?
And then I could get 10reference tracks and then see,
(08:28):
you know examples of each one,like, oh, this one has this
length, this one has that length.
I could probably do somethingwith one of those examples and
then go from there.
But and you know, there's stilltimes where I'll just go in
completely, as they say, rawdogging it without any sort of
reference, and just go ham on it.
But that's usually if I have alot of time on my hands, right?
(08:49):
If I got like a full day and Igot eight hours to kill, then
sure I'll go ahead and trysomething, just having fun and
doing that.
But the reality is is I don'thave eight hours to kill to make
tracks.
I might have one or two hours aday where I can really zone in
hill to make tracks.
I might have one or two hours aday where I can really zone in,
and so the quickest shortcut todoing that is to have that
(09:09):
reference track.
Or the other thing I do is Ijust have created a bunch of
templates based off of referencetracks that I love, and then I
can just open one of those anduse that as a blank canvas.
Right, I already have my drumslaid out, I have my arrangement
markers laid out.
I might even have mixing chainson each one of the different
(09:30):
buses laid out.
So I already know that, like,all I gotta worry about is vibe
and melody and progression, andthe rest is kind of like oh, I
gotta swap out that kick or Igotta change that hi-hat or I
gotta do this, or you know yeah,kind of removing all the
friction to like that creativeprocess, the vibe as you
mentioned, that and likeachieving that sort of vibe that
you want to use.
Marc Matthews (09:52):
And I think I had this discussion with Michael,
actually because he's been onthe podcast twice, so the first
time he was on, we werediscussing his workflow and how
he follows a similar process inthat he'll have follows a
similar process in that he'llhave, let's say, serum or diva,
and then have the favorited basspatches that he wants to use
and use those just to kickstartthat creative process.
So you're not spending an hourtrying to find the perfect bass
(10:15):
or spending a couple hourstrying to find the perfect snare
, which you might whip out inthe long run anyway because it
doesn't suit the mix overall.
But going back to thatreference track, say you've
started a song, you're using thereference, you've mapped it out
and whatnot?
Do you use the same referencewhen it comes to the mixing
stage and the mastering stage?
John Kunkel (10:33):
yeah, usually it depends if it's in the same key.
So I'll always referencesomething in the same key of the
track that I'm working in.
So if I'm working on a track ing minor, I'm going to reference
the track in g minor, becausewhen I look at the frequency
spectrum of the reference track,I want to be able to compare it
accurately to my track formixing, because you know, the
most fundamental parts of a mixare usually going to be the low
(10:54):
end right.
So I want to make sure that,like my first octave bass, my
sub is aligned with thereference, my second octave bass
, my third octave bass, and it'snot so much that you're using
that as like it needs to matchexactly what that track is doing
, energy wise or whatever.
Yeah, it's a good way to beable to get yourself closer to a
ballpark mix that willtranslate most likely very well
(11:18):
across several systems, becauseyou're already using that
reference track as your NorthStar and so you can use that
track's frequency spectrum anduse things like matching EQ
analyzers, all sorts ofdifferent techniques, to be able
to get a mix that will sound asclose as possible to that club
track or to that North Startrack that you're vibing with
(11:42):
and it also just createsconsistency across your mixes.
So, if you're working on an're,you know vibing with and it also
just creates consistency acrossyour mixes.
So if you're working on like analbum, for instance, right, you
know having those differentreference tracks as long I mean
that's.
The other thing too, is that,like you have to be very
selective as well with yourreference tracks, right?
Like you don't want somethingthat's like a 90s house
reference track versus like ahouse track that was just, you
(12:04):
know, released yesterday.
Completely different mixingtechniques, completely different
.
You know mixing spectrums andwhatnot.
Marc Matthews (12:12):
So choosing your reference track is also super
important yeah, those words echoa conversation I had on the
podcast, a couple I've had onthis year, one with slay slain
shane slack, get his name rightearlier this year and he said
the same thing to find a trackin the same key.
And I think Eric Mitchell aswell, mastering engineer, said a
similar thing.
So it's a recurring theme ofthe podcast this year with
(12:33):
regards to references BecauseI've been banging on about
references now, probably sincethis is like the fifth year of
the podcast, but only this yearhas it really sort of come to
light with regards to actuallyfinding a reference in the same
key as well, which is from whatI can gather from the feedback
I've had on the podcast is oftenoverlooked.
So it's a, it's a veryimportant tip.
So, moving on slightly now,what's the what would you say?
(12:54):
I was gonna say the biggestmistake.
It sounds quite negative, butmaybe the biggest mistake or
challenge you see producers makethat slows them down.
John Kunkel (13:01):
I think the number one is the sound selection, and
this goes into sound design aswell.
But your track is only going tosound as good as the choices
that you make in sound selection, you know.
So you know, the way I like tothink about it is if you're
painting a canvas, right and youhave paint that is from this
(13:21):
brand, and then you have paintthat is from this other brand,
and maybe one of those brands islike less quality than the
other one, or maybe they'reactually not really compatible
because of the material thatthey're using right, that is
going to massively affect howthe end result will sound.
So you're, you know, ultimatelyproduction and and song and
(13:44):
songwriting and creation, atleast when it comes to
electronic music, really comesdown to the choices and
decisions that you makesonically.
So whatever you're picking,whether it be a kick hi-hat,
bass, all of that is going tocome together and create this
sort of bigger picture, and ifone of those elements is off or
not the ideal sound, then thetrack isn't going to sound well,
(14:06):
and so the biggest mistake thatI see most producers make is
they just kind of go forwhatever they think sounds good
in isolation, but maybe not incontext with each other.
So that could mean that you knowyou're going to have to make
some trade-offs, like you mayreally like this bass preset,
but that bass preset ispotentially what is ruining your
entire song.
And when you swap that basspreset out and maybe you just
(14:29):
sound design something fromscratch, that's just a simple
sine wave or a simple saw wavewith a couple of voices.
That could be the thing thatmakes or breaks your track.
And so, you know, I oftentimesand I do a lot of coaching with
different producers that are upand coming or that are just
trying to learn how to sounddesign or just learning how to
produce, you know, 90 of thetime when I, you know, when I
(14:51):
hear the tracks that they'reworking on, the first thing that
I notice is just the soundsthat they picked are just really
bad quality, or maybe they arehigh quality but they're
incompatible with one yeah, wisewords.
Marc Matthews (15:01):
Would you also say that?
Or rather, do you everexperience where you maybe find
a mix engineer or producershaving problems with a mix and
maybe it's eq or compression orsomething some of this just not
quite sitting right and itactually turns out it is like
you said it is just a poorchoice and they need to whip out
that sample and bring anotherone in or use a different patch,
versus reaching for an eq orcompression or saturation or
(15:22):
something along those lines athousand percent.
John Kunkel (15:25):
One of the things that I try to do with my
students is to teach them to notdo any mixing until they are at
the 99% stage of production,meaning that most, if you can
get to a really solid mixwithout having to do hardly any
processing, then you're already,you know, let that that, that
that means that everything thatyou've selected up to that point
(15:59):
is compatible with each otheror it's sounding good.
Now the way I see mixing isreally more like a way to
accentuate those sounds or tobring those sounds either more
forward to the front.
So I don't really see it aslike I don't really see mixing
as like a surgical exercise.
I see it more as like ahighlighting exercise of like
you know what?
I think this pad or this synthis a lead, so I want to add a
(16:22):
little bit more top end or Iwant to add a little bit more
overdrive to it, to kind of likerichen it out.
But I I, you know, with my owntracks I rarely, you know, when
I finish them and send them offto labels I don't really do that
much mixing to them.
I, I very I mean mixing in thesense of like surgical eq and
stuff like that.
Usually what I do is like I'lljust level things out.
Marc Matthews (16:42):
So it's, you know , I really do believe in just
volume fader, mixing and veryminimal, minimal, minimal eq,
and then any other eq is reallyfor for creative purposes yeah,
it's quite refreshing, taking itto be fair, because I think
again, with the podcast andspeaking to the listeners and
whatnot, I think it can be quiteeasy to fall into over mixing,
(17:02):
over processing and just doingsomething because that's what
you've seen online.
You see all these uh, you seetutorials etc.
Online.
They say do the xyz to get thisvocal, particular particular
sound and whatnot on a vocal ora kick or anything along those
lines, and I think you can justgo down a rabbit hole just over
processing, where realistically,less is more yeah, 100, and I
(17:25):
think that's the important thingis that people will sometimes
think that, well, I just added areverb and then I did some EQ,
and then I did this andcompression as mixing.
John Kunkel (17:33):
I would argue that's not mixing, that's
production.
You're trying to arrive at acertain sonic sound.
Mixing is really just aboutmaking sure that everything
flows well together.
So that's why I always tell youknow, students and stuff that
(17:54):
like, if you're producing andyou're doing EQq and you're
adding compression, you're doingthis stuff, you're really still
producing.
You're not really mixing atthat stage, because mixing is
going to be like I goteverything printed out
potentially, they're all linedup and you know the session and
I'm just really trying to makesure that everything is is is
bouncing well together, levelingout.
You know, particularly fordance music.
You know you really don't haveto do a whole lot if your sound
choices are good and and and youknow, a lot of times the reason
(18:15):
why people over mix is becausethey made bad production choices
and so that's why they end uphaving to do all these crazy
things to make the track soundgood, because they ended up over
phasing something, or theyended up adding too much reverb,
or they ended up, you know,their, their ping pong delay is
just like going so stereo thatlike they think, oh no, I gotta
(18:35):
fix this other thing and inreality, oh, your ping pong
delay is just taking up theentire stereo image.
That's, that's what's happening.
So those are productiondecisions that end up in
people's minds thinking that, um, you know, I gotta fix the mix
now, which you know.
Marc Matthews (18:48):
So yeah, yeah, it's, uh, it's a common common
thread.
I would say, having done thispodcast now for five years, a
very, very much common thread.
So moving into, like sounddesign, so we've we've touched
on it a bit here.
This is an interesting question.
Do you think every producershould dive into synthesis?
Should you have like a basicunderstanding, I guess,
specifically in the realm ofmusic, that you operate within
(19:10):
um or is focusing on presets andsamples?
Enough can you get away with Iget away is the wrong phrase,
because you don't really want tobe like making music and just
getting away with it.
John Kunkel (19:20):
Um, in my mind, yeah, I mean, it's totally
possible for somebody not tohave any sort of sound design,
synthesis sort of knowledge, butI do think that it opens up a
lot of doors and I think that ifthere's a sound that you hear
in your head and you don't wantto spend an hour looking for the
right preset for it and you canjust make it yourself, then
that's pretty powerful.
(19:41):
You know, you could saveyourself an hour.
So you know, again, I'm allabout efficiency when it comes
down to workflow.
If you have that skill set, youknow it's kind of like saying,
like, would you want to justrely on MIDI or would you want
to be a really good keyboardplayer or piano player?
Right, like, I think you wouldalways want to be able to play
(20:02):
keys really well, which I don't.
I suck at playing keys, and soit's like I have to rely on a
lot of like MIDI work and youknow, kind of like Avicii-ing it
where it's.
I have to rely on a lot of likeMIDI work and you know, kind of
like Avicii-ing it where it's.
I'm pretty much 90% in thepiano role, right, um, so would
I would like to have thatability, a thousand percent, and
I think for sound design.
It's the same thing, it's justit's a really good extra half,
(20:23):
but it's not, you know,essential, necessarily, and
that's proven by thousands ofproducers who, just um you know,
rely on, on presets and they,they, they do very well for
themselves yeah, I, um, I'm thesame.
Marc Matthews (20:36):
I'd love I'm a guitarist, so I could play
guitar yeah, but play playingpiano?
I think I tried, for whateverreason.
I thought I was listening to atrack and I was just like I'm
gonna try and play that pianotrack and then I sat down I was
like, yeah, I can, I can't evenplay piano.
What made me think I could justsit down and just bust out this
piano piece?
But I'm very much the same Ipiano roll and then trying to
(20:58):
humanize it with velocity andtiming and whatnot.
Definitely definitely down thatroute.
If you're say you're startingout, you want to get into sound
design and synthesis, can yourecommend a synth to start with
a?
John Kunkel (21:11):
vst.
Well, I mean, I think serum isa great one because you can
really see and visualize, youknow, what's happening under the
hood.
I mean that was kind of thereason why it was built is
because, you know, steve dudadidn't like how massive which
was another uh synth by nativeinstruments kind of had similar
functionality, but buteverything was not visible to
(21:31):
the person designing the presets, right.
So with Serum it's really welllaid out for you to be able to
see exactly what's happeningwhen you do, you know, a
movement of a knob or anythinglike that.
You can also see like differentwavetables which are sort of
like the bread and butter,instead of Serum, of sound
design, and it's a reallypowerful synth.
(21:55):
You know serum to particularly.
You know I've been a really bigfan of it and I've already made
like 500 presets for it sinceit came out and it's just
incredibly powerful.
If you want something a bit onthe lighter side, I would
recommend people start withsomething like spire, very easy
to sound design with.
It's got, I think, three orfour oscillators and just yeah,
you know like watch a couple oftutorials.
It's really not rocket science.
(22:16):
It's not difficult to wrap yourhead around if you dedicate
time to it.
Marc Matthews (22:21):
Yeah, I'm a serum user.
I've been using it now for thelast 18 months and I'm a massive
user as well.
Use massive less now, now thatI've got serum and there's
another one as well.
I cannot remember the name ofit and it's great for sound
design.
It's gone.
It's Arturia Pigments.
That's the one.
John Kunkel (22:40):
I was thinking of yeah, yeah, pigments is really
good too.
Yeah, that's another good one.
Marc Matthews (22:44):
Yeah, I use pigments a lot when it comes up.
I use pigments a lot when itcomes to if I want just like
really weird, like atonal orlike just random sounds, I often
reach for pigments.
But another really cool.
I think I'm probably dueupdating it to be fair, but I've
never used Spire.
Is that a paid for?
Is that a free?
It's a paid synth.
John Kunkel (23:03):
It's paid by this company called Reveal Sound and
I've used it on nearly everysingle track that I've ever done
since it came out.
It's just a very lightweight,not super CPU hungry synth and I
use it for bread and buttersound.
So if I just want like a reallysimple bass to kind of layer
under.
Or if I want to widen anothersynth by layering, I'll drop
(23:25):
Inspire quite a bit.
Another one that I'm reallyreally into is nexus, which is
probably my, my favorite synth.
Um nexus 5, I think.
It's just got so many optionsand I think it sounds
objectively better than serumpotentially.
But you know serum is just sortof like you know everyone's
go-to and there's a lot of greatpresets for it.
(23:45):
But but nexus, in my opinion,is just so powerful.
It's kind of like omnisphere oncrack.
You know it's just got like andit's and it's and it's actually
for for how powerful it is.
It's very lightweight as well.
You can run several, severalinstances of it before your um.
You know sessions start kind ofuh crackling or anything.
Marc Matthews (24:07):
Yeah, I found that with Massive.
I remember before I had my MacStudio and I was using Massive
and I've had a few instances ofthat and it was just like no,
you can stop.
You're not doing any more ofthat, but thankfully I don't
have that now.
But I think Nexus would lovethat soundbar, that description
of you of Omnisphere on crack oncrack.
John Kunkel (24:34):
Oh man, it's.
Yeah, I would highly recommendit.
I mean, it does cost a lot andthe expansion banks are
expensive, but they'redefinitely worth it and they
teach you a lot about just howthey get those signature sounds.
And you know, there's a coupleof banks that I like, like the
harman van buren bank is reallynice, the cashmere bank and
there's a bunch of melodictechno ones that I that I find
to be really inspiring.
It's's nice.
Marc Matthews (24:52):
There you go, folks, I'll put links.
I'll find links to all those.
Do go check them out in theepisode show notes.
You'll find that in the linksfor this episode.
So I think it'd be nice now tomove on to the creative process
and results phase, stage, let'ssay, of creation.
So I often ask this question toindividuals, whether it's
production, mixing or masteringbut from your experience, how do
(25:15):
you know when a track isfinished?
Let's go from the productionside of things before mixing.
How do you know when a track isfinished?
John Kunkel (25:20):
yeah, I mean, I think that's really up to every
producer to decide.
You know, I think it's quiteeasy to overdo a track and I'm
definitely guilty of that,thinking that I need to add.
Just, you know, keep layeringand adding more and more and
more.
So I don't know that Inecessarily have an answer as to
how do you know when it'sfinished.
I think you just kind of knowand you're like this is it Like
(25:43):
I don't need to do any more workto it, of lean these days more
towards not oversaturating atrack and just focusing a lot on
automation versus just addingmore and more and more stuff to
it?
Right, like I'm a big eric pritzfan, and so one of the things
that I've always noticed that hedoes is he doesn't really have
(26:05):
thousands of sounds in histracks.
He just has a few core elementsand those are always evolving,
whether it's via volumeautomation or, you know,
interesting effects and stufflike that.
So I'm definitely a big fan ofthat now, and so I think that's
also helped me finish tracksquicker is not having to think
about constant adding more andmore and more.
(26:26):
Like I'm actually reallyagainst that these days.
I now work with some people thatI won't mention that are very
much about like adding layersand layers and layers.
And then I'll be on a mixingsession with them and they'll
say, do you think I should bringthat 18th synth up a little bit
?
And I'm like, well, I didn'teven know it was there, I had to
(26:46):
go and solo it.
So there's just stuff like thatwhere it's really easy for for
you to get into your head thatyou need to keep adding stuff to
finish the track, when inreality it was probably finished
, you know, 10 sessions ago yeah, yeah, it's really interesting.
Marc Matthews (27:02):
You mentioned that about the, the individual
who um was asking about thatparticular sound, whether or not
they should bring it up in themix, and I experienced that just
recently as I was working on aproject for someone and I gave
them some feedback and I wasjust like you've got all these
sounds which I'm mixing.
John Kunkel (27:19):
And.
Marc Matthews (27:19):
I don't think you need like.
I was at the mixing stage and Ididn't want to put a producer
hat on because that wasn't myrole, but I was kind of like
you've got all these and they'rejust competing for space and
some of them you can't hear.
But it happens, doesn't it?
And I really like what you saidthere about, rather than adding
more, use, automation, movethings with regards to volume,
(27:42):
with regards to stereo placement, or whether it's automating EQ
or something along those lines.
So I really like that approachand I think it's really, really,
really good.
John Kunkel (27:50):
Yeah, and I think it's important for producers and
artists to understand a littlebit of like how psychology works
.
When you listen to music, thebrain can only process X amount
of information.
So you know, when you startadding things over and over and
over there, you know iteventually becomes a wall of
sound, right, and so the brainhas to try to.
(28:11):
You know, make eventuallybecomes a wall of sound, right,
and so the brain has to try to.
You know, make sense of thatinformation in the best way it
can.
And if the brain is telling youadd more, that usually might
mean that you need to justprobably step away from the
track.
And then, you know, give it tosomeone else and let them hear
it and then ask them do youthink this needs more or not,
instead of just like working ina silo and then just you know
layering stuff.
(28:31):
Because you know again, like the, you know your ears and your
brain can only process X amountof sounds.
You know, within a.
You know it's kind of like ifyou're watching a movie and you
try to put in four or fivescenes into one clip at the same
time, like would you know whatis happening?
You would, you know what ishappening?
You probably wouldn't, becauseeven if you had like an opacity
(28:52):
layer and you could see all likethe the different scenes
happening at the same time, your, your, your eyes wouldn't be
able to process what's going on.
And it's the same thing withmusic, right?
You know, whatever the centraltheme of your track is, that
should be the, the full focus ofthat section or of the drop or
anything else, and all the otherstuff really just takes a
(29:12):
backdrop.
And, yeah, there's going to bepeople that are going to be like
, oh, that snare is sick or thatbass tone is great.
But you know what?
What?
You know the vibe of the track,those things just, you know,
add to the vibe of the track.
They don't necessarily liketake over the front stage.
Marc Matthews (29:25):
So I think it's always important to remember
that well, you mentioned thatabout the sort of the analogy
using the film is really good.
Never thought of it that way.
So I think audience listeningif you ever are in that position
whereby you're sort of secondguessing yourself think of it in
that context that Johnmentioned there about the
central theme, and do you wantall these subplots or these side
(29:45):
quests going on at the sametime?
Can you comprehend or are youexhausting your cognitive load?
And one thing I've done moreoften than not lately for the
last 18 months now because,hands in the air, I was one of
those individuals that at onepoint would throw the kitchen
sink at stuff and then Ilistened back to some early
things and I'm like what was Ithinking there?
Why have I got so much going onthere?
I learned the hard way.
(30:06):
Now it's and, uh, it's throughthat feedback loop as well that
I experienced that.
So you mentioned there aboutsending it to someone else and
getting that feedback and and anindividual saying, coming back
and saying, actually, have youconsidered just stripping it
back and removing elementsrather than adding more?
So it really really does,really does make a difference.
John Kunkel (30:23):
It's wise words yeah, and I think that you know,
kind of going off of that topic, of the psychology of it too, I
think there's also an elementthat I've noticed from you, you
know, having worked with peopleon a coaching level is that the
more that you add to a trackusually shows that you're not
confident with the ideas thatyou began with, and so it's
almost a way to mask what youdon't feel comfortable with.
(30:45):
And so a lot of times, being agood producer is being confident
in your decisions and knowingthat whatever you're adding into
is good enough, and if it's notgood enough, then adding more
things to it isn't going to maskyour confidence.
I mean, in other words, likeyou know, good, good, good
productions come from confidentproducers.
(31:07):
In my opinion, I really dobelieve that to be true.
I think that if you're and again, like confidence is something
that takes practice, right,there's false confidence, which
is someone who comes in he'slike oh, I just made this track
and I added all this stuff to it, and then you hear it and it
sounds terrible.
Right, that's what I would calllike false confidence.
But you know, actual, realconfidence is sort of like this
(31:28):
position where you're going intoa track and you might have to
spend a lot of time gettingthere.
You know, it may not be quick,you might not be able to get
that idea for a day or a week orwhatever, but eventually you're
going to arrive at somethingwhere you have so much
confidence that, like this isgood and I don't need to put 15
layers under it for it to soundgood, right and so, yeah, that's
(31:48):
sort of like.
Another thing that I think isreally important for people to
remember is that, like if you'restarting to see yourself add a
bunch of layers to stuff to makesomething sound good, then you
weren't originally comfortablewith the first idea that you had
, and that could even be noteven on a sound design level.
That could just be like yourmelody sucks.
So you're just trying to likemake it sound good even though
(32:09):
the original melody is not greatto begin with's kind of like
polishing a turd right as theysay so yeah, making a, as we say
over here, a silk purse out ofa sal's ear is is one of the
phrases that comes to mind.
Marc Matthews (32:21):
I don't know if that translates in the us.
It might do.
I think it does, but it's onethat we say a lot over here.
But it makes perfect sense.
There's like audiencechallenges.
I've got a challenge for youguys listening.
So pick one unfinished trackfrom your hard drive and commit
to finishing it.
I've got this week.
I mean, obviously you can do itseven days if you want, with a
stripped down approach.
So cut all the fluff, focus onthe essentials and get that
(32:42):
track finished.
Based on the sort of discussionthat John and I have had here
today in this episode.
John, it's been an absolutepleasure.
There's loads of this.
I appreciate we're at 35minutes already and I did say I
very rarely get through all thequestions that.
I have what I've got writtendown.
This always happens, but Ithink it'd be great if you could
maybe talk a bit about whatyou're up to and also where the
(33:02):
audience can find you online ifthey want to learn more about
you and what you're.
John Kunkel (33:07):
Yeah, so I am putting out a John Grand album
pretty soon and then I juststarted a new project with my
bandmate, alex Gonzalez, fromhe's in another band really
great band called Matt Black.
They do industrial and sort oflike darker kind of music, but
we just started a techno projectcalled Unterstrom.
So I'm kind of putting most ofmy energies into that lately and
(33:31):
then still doing new divisionstuff.
Just did an EP that's comingout next month and then, yeah,
just you know, constantly doingsound design, producing, mixing
and mastering friends andfriends and family and other
people out there.
So, yeah, you can find me onInstagram at John Grand Official
.
Can find me on instagram atjohn grand official.
(33:55):
You can follow unterstrom,which is, like I said, more
techno leaning.
Uh at, we are unterstrom oninstagram and uh, yeah, I think
those are usually the defaultplaces folks can find me on.
Yeah, fantastic.
Marc Matthews (34:03):
I'll put those links in the episode description
and audience listening.
If you're not familiar with thenew division, go check out
argyle.
It's, uh, there's a vocalsample in that.
I think it's a vocal sample.
It might actually be a vocalist, uh, but it's.
It's such a cool sample and itinspired me this week to think
you know what?
I'm gonna find something likethat myself in the track that
I'm working, working on in a fewweeks.
(34:24):
Uh, I wish I could time stampthe sample I'm thinking of, but
I can't.
I can't think of it?
John Kunkel (34:28):
was it like the little lead one on the choruses
maybe, or something?
Marc Matthews (34:33):
I think so it's not actual words, it's just like
a it's like a yeah, yeah, yeah,I was gonna try to see it.
John Kunkel (34:41):
Yeah, I think it was just a one shot that I put
on on like a multi-sampler nice,it's so cool.
Marc Matthews (34:48):
I was gonna try to sing it then, but but then I
can't sing, man, I wish I could.
Fantastic stuff, john.
Thank you very much.
Audience, do go check thoselinks in the episode description
and, if you've picked up onetip that you're going to take
forward today, considersupporting Inside the Mix on
Patreon.
You'll unlock exclusive extrasand help me us keep bringing
(35:10):
these conversations every weekas well, so you can click the
link in the episode descriptionand you can join for free, for
free, for free.
John.
It's been a pleasure.
Again.
Thank you so much for takingthe time out today to chat with
me and we'll catch up again soon.
Thanks for having me.
No worries Until next time.
Folks stay inspired, keepcreating and don't be afraid to
experiment inside the mix.
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