October 7, 2025 • 46 mins
What does a true wall of sound feel like when the vocal still breathes? We sit down with vocalist‑producer Jay Cali (DRUMxWAVE) and mixer‑producer Brian Skeel to unpack the craft behind Severed, big drums, widescreen synths, supportive guitars, and why clarity starts with a shared vision before a single plug‑in loads.
We trace the journey from demo to master, beginning with an hour of alignment on emotion, references, and the “mountaintop” vocal image that sets every downstream choice. Brian breaks down how he builds commanding vocals without harshness: Revoice for doubles and harmonies that behave like real performances, meticulous cleanup, Slate’s processing for character and control, FabFilter DS for precision, and a touch of L1 to pin dynamics so automation can shape arcs. Width becomes a dynamic fader, verses intimate and centred, choruses opening with MicroShift for that lift you feel more than hear. Jay and Brian also reveal the “demon” breakdown: a vocoder moment sculpted with Baby Audio’s Humanoid, tamed by Soothe 2 and widened just enough to shock, then glide.
If you’ve ever struggled to pair synths and guitars, you’ll get a clear playbook. Guitars serve aggression rather than steal focus, panned L/R and low‑passed to make way for hi‑hats and vocal air. Synth choices lean on Serum 2 and ANA 2, with patches picked for fit, not flash. The top end gets the same discipline as the low: cut clutter above 10 kHz so the mix doesn’t fizz, a lesson that came into focus after upgrading monitors and hearing what the old room hid. And for loudness without lifelessness - around −7.8 LUFS - Brian details a reference‑driven, top‑down chain using Metric AB, soft clipping and bus moves to reduce limiter strain, and focused multiband to keep choruses powerful without pumping.
Along the way, you’ll pick up collaboration habits that save weeks: arrive with a concise brief and references, label stems to spec, and send specific revision notes. Ready to test it? Grab one current track with guitars, synths, and vocals. Try widening only the chorus vocal and low‑passing rhythm guitars until the breath returns. Hear the space? That’s what loud and open can sound like. If this resonates, follow, share with a friend who mixes dense productions, and leave a quick review so more producers can find these deep dives.
Links mentioned in this episode:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian (00:00):
I do the top-down approach where I kind of start
at the uh stereo bus and kind ofwork backwards.
I'll start at the stereo bust,do as much as I can there, go to
my group stems.
So like if all the drums needcompressed together, I'll put a
compressor on that.
If all the vocals need uh like,oh my god, uh and and this
happens to me all the time.
(00:21):
Brian, when you sing, there'sthis like this weird 2K thing
that happens everywhere.
Okay, great, let's just putthat on everything.
Marc (00:27):
You're listening to the Inside the Mix podcast with your
host, Mark Matthews.
Welcome to Inside the Mix, yourgo-to podcast for music
creation and production.
Whether you're crafting yourfirst track or refining your
mixing skills, join me each weekfor expert interviews,
practical tutorials, andinsights to help you level up
(00:48):
your music and smash it in themusic industry.
Let's dive in.
Hey folks, welcome to Insidethe Mix.
In this episode, I am joined byvocalist, writer, and producer
Jay Kelly, better known asDrumwave and artist, producer
and mix engineer Bri BrianSkeel.
And uh this is a first.
(01:11):
Is it a first?
It's been a long time.
It's not a first, I should tella lie.
It's been a long time sinceI've had more than one person on
the podcast at any one point.
So, audience, do bear with me.
I think it's been about two,possibly three years since I've
had more than one person.
So navigating that is gonna bequite interesting.
But I'm excited for this one.
Fellas, thanks for joining me.
How are we today?
Jay (01:31):
Doing well, man.
Thank you very much for havingus.
This is very exciting.
Brian (01:35):
Yeah, doing great.
It's a nice sunny day out.
And so naturally I'm in my darkbasement in the air
conditioning.
Marc (01:42):
I was gonna say that.
It's a nice sunny day.
And then if you're if you'rewatching this, you can see this
uh viewers, listeners, you cansee that Brian's uh sort of
environment.
It's quite dark, even though itis.
But that that's that that isthe life we lead, isn't it?
In audio, you know, you lockyourself away when it's nice
outside.
So, folks, if you don't knowJay yet, he's the full-time
touring drummer for SynthwaveLegend Time Cop 983, and he's
(02:05):
stepping out as drumwave, hisfirst solo project, where he
takes the mic as vocalist,writer, and producer.
And Brian, of course, he's anartist and producer for
Columbus, Ohio.
One half of the Synth Pop DuoChroma Cloud and a powerhouse
mixing engineer who's workedwith the lights of Cellar
Dweller, Scandroid, andcountless indie artists
worldwide as well.
And he's got credits on HBO,Netflix, and the CW.
(02:28):
Forgive me, what is the CW?
Brought that my notes, I didn'tknow.
Brian (02:31):
The CW is uh kind of a broadcast channel here.
I guess they moved the cable,but there's lots of like drama
on uh that network.
Marc (02:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I I've got in my notes, and Ithink I've got written here like
question mark, but I neveractually went and found out what
it was.
I thought, oh, I'll ask now.
But there we go.
Um, folks, before we dive intothis, uh, so I just want to let
you know by the end of thisepisode what you're gonna walk
away with.
So we're gonna go through somepractical tips for keeping
clarity and dense mixes.
So we've got synths andguitars, uh, strategies for
(02:59):
balancing vocals as well.
So we've got with thataggressive sort of
instrumentation and workflowinsights to maintain punch and
dynamics.
If you ever struggle to keepyour mix from collapsing, that's
quite that's quite a strongword there, collapsing, uh,
under layers of sound.
This conversation is for you.
But before we do that, if youlove what you're hearing and
want to support the show, pleasedo join the Inside the Mix
community on Patreon where youget exclusive content
(03:21):
behind-the-scenes insights andhelp this podcast keep going
strong.
So click the link in theepisode description.
So take a breather.
Um, let's start with Severed.
Great tune, by the way, mate.
I um when I was writing thenotes for this, I was listening
to it over and over.
And there's a remix of it,right?
As well, where it's it's spedup.
Is that correct?
Jay (03:42):
Yeah, I for some reason when I wrote this song, I kept
envisioning having a sped upversion of it.
Um, so when we were uh you knowin the bouncing stage, I'm
like, hey Brian, uh you think uhwe can get get this going?
He's like, Oh yeah, I do thatall the time.
So yeah.
Marc (03:58):
Nice, nice.
It just when I was listening toyour back catalogue as I do
when I'm putting these notestogether and the the outline for
the episode, it just came outof nowhere.
And I was like, I'm gonna haveto go check out what that is.
Uh it's good, it's quiteinteresting, it's quite cool,
man.
Um, so we're talking about thetune Severed, so it was kind of
like behind the music, if youwill.
When you wrote the choke, whenyou wrote the song, Severed,
what was the sonic vision inyour head?
(04:19):
Can you tell our audience?
Jay (04:21):
Oh wow.
Um I just pictured like mestanding on like a mountain
singing, you know, just a wallof sound behind me.
Um you know, just because thesong is kind of like it's it's a
cry, you know, from somethingthat I've been through in my
(04:43):
life, and I'm just kind ofletting it out and letting the
world know how I feel, but alsoin a moment of solitude.
So, you know, I just wanted thesong to be big.
I wanted it to be emotional.
Um, and you know, I just I Iwanted it to just like kind of
hit you, you know.
So, so yeah, I mean, with that,you know, you gotta have super
(05:04):
strong punchy drums in the mix.
Um, you know, guitars gotta besitting where they're where they
should be in in the synths, youknow, to kind of just you know
accentuate that vocal, you know.
So so that was it on my end.
What what I um what Ipersonally wanted, and obviously
Brian could probably delvedeeper into that on his end.
Marc (05:23):
Yeah, from the instrumentation side of things,
before we dive into that, youmentioned synths, you mentioned
guitars.
Are you uh the player of allthose instruments?
Are you the the guitarists?
Um VST synths or analog synths?
Jay (05:37):
Uh well so in the demo stages, I'm definitely just um
using all VST like stuff um inlike really crappy like guitar
sounds on there.
Um, and then when I send it alloff to Brian, he's um kind
enough to to put real guitarsand stuff like that um on the
tracks.
So um it doesn't sound you knowall wonky and cheesy.
(05:58):
So yeah, thankful for that.
Marc (06:00):
I love that.
And that's got that's a nicesegue to my question for Brian
then.
So you got this this sonicvision.
How did you translate that inthe mix?
Maybe just like an overalldescription of how that worked
out.
Brian (06:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
So Jay sent me the demo, andbefore I ever open Cubase or
download stems or anything, Ialways talk with the artist.
So uh we had like a you knowhour-long conversation on the
phone.
Um, I work with people all overthe world.
Sometimes that's just like youknow, hanging out on Zoom and
chatting through the vision thatthey're local.
(06:31):
We sit on the couch and pull upSpotify and just talk about
emotion and sonic canvas andwhat we like, what we don't
like.
We'll listen to you know acouple songs that are like, I
love the snare on this trackhere.
Is there any way we canincorporate that in this?
And so uh Jay and I were very,very on the same page with
(06:52):
basically everything.
It was like we were finishing,finishing each other's
sandwiches at that point.
It was it was great.
So all I had to do was, youknow, download the stems um and
just see that vision all the waythrough.
It was super clear.
Marc (07:07):
No, I like that phrase.
Um finish finishing eachother's sandwiches.
Uh I like that one, dude.
Yeah, yeah.
Brian (07:13):
If you don't have kids, that's from uh frozen.
Who is it?
Marc (07:17):
Yeah, uh well, there we go.
Uh I don't know that one then.
Um, but it did stand out.
So it's fair to say then thatthat conversation before you
even sit down and open the DAW,import the stems into your door,
that conversation is paramount.
And both of you pulling in thesame direction or heading in the
same direction with the samevision or the the visions
(07:38):
aligning into that onedirection, which is paramount.
Um, yeah, yeah.
In terms of the actual process,was it sort of an asynchronous
process?
Or was Jay, were you able to beinvolved whilst Brian was
mixing?
Did you do it that way, or wasit sort of Brian, you do your
thing, send it to Jay forfeedback?
(07:58):
How did how did that processwork?
Jay (08:01):
Well, um Brian does give you the option to sit in on the
session um if you want to, butyou know, I trust Brian, you
know, to do what he does andwhat he's a pro at.
Um, that's why I even wanted towork with him in the first
place.
So I kind of let him have hisfree reign, see what where his
years are leading him.
And then um, you know, when itcomes to revision uh phases, you
(08:24):
know, I could say, hey, youknow, I yeah, I like this, or I
think this needs to come up alittle bit.
You know, I I always send himparagraphs of notes, you know,
like of things that, you know,I, you know, I try to be as
detailed as I can, but um, youknow, Brian's very talented, so
like he's mentioned before,we're often like kind of meeting
in the middle, you know, whenit comes to um what he's hearing
(08:44):
and and what I'm hearing andtrying to like convey to him um
as best I can.
But yeah, so that's kind ofwhat it's like for me on my end.
Marc (08:53):
Nice.
Detailed notes is good though,man.
Like yeah, the more the moredetail, the better I find with
these things for you to work offof.
Most definitely.
So, right in your initialdescription of your vision, you
mentioned vocals, you mentionedstanding on that sort of
mountaintop water sound behindyou.
So, Brian, could you just walkus through like an overview of
(09:15):
your vocal chain and how you putthis together?
Um this vision that Jay had forthe vocal.
Brian (09:21):
Yeah, yeah.
So uh I'm definitely a wall ofsound producer.
Like the last track that I didfor my band ended up being like
300 tracks easy.
Um, and so I'm always the guythat's like more.
Um, and so Jay sent me theseamazing sounding vocal tracks,
and I'm like, but we need more.
So there's a really cool toolthat I've been using lately
(09:42):
called Revoice.
It's by the same people thatmake vocal line uh synchro arts,
I think.
And what it does is kind ofre-like you can feed it a vocal
and it will resynthesize adouble.
And so where Jay was sending mesingle tracks of a lead, I
would feed it through that andcome up with a double and just
make it that extra, extra big.
(10:04):
Um, and I did that throughoutthe track with like harmonies
and leads.
I was resynthesizing uhdifferent harmonies as well and
coming up with new uharrangements for that, which was
a lot of fun.
But after that, uh it's anynumber of things.
So I'll usually start with somekind of cleanup, uh, whether
it's like, you know, RX, mouthdeclicker, or gating.
(10:25):
Um, but then I'll usually runit through a this is getting
really nerdy.
I don't know how how nerdy weget on this.
Oh, go for it, man.
Keep going.
Yeah, yeah.
There are no rules here.
Oh, great.
So I'll I'll usually run itthrough like uh a series of um
effects through the slatevirtual mix rack.
So standard like SSL EQ.
(10:47):
Um I think with him I was usinga 401 compressor.
Maybe I was using a D uhdistressor as like parallel
compression.
Um after that, I was definitelydoing some DSing and I was
probably using the Fab filterDS.
Uh I love limiting vocals, soI'll always throw like a like an
L1 somewhere in the chain justto like really pin it, really
(11:11):
put it in place.
So that way uh there's a reallyinteresting sound that comes
out of that plug and it's alittle distorty, but you can
definitely maintain clarity.
But what it does is it pins itso that uh it's always in the
same like amplitude all the waythrough, but then you can you
know ride your automation andsay like the verse needs to come
down, uh, even though you knowthe the chorus is you know,
(11:33):
we're we're screaming our gutsout.
Um I'm sure I used, yes, I usedsome uh parallel distortion,
and that was likely heat fromJoey Surgis Tones, which is a
very underrated multi-banddistortion unit.
Uh very cool stuff.
Marc (11:54):
I love the distressor.
The slate digital uh virtualmix rack is great, man.
Oh my god, I'm a user of thatmyself.
Uh I love it.
And um the distressor inparticular, I had the pleasure
of using a distressor uh analogversion in studio once, and it
was so cool.
But the the the slate digitalone is fantastic.
And the heat, I hadn't heard ofthat one.
Is there a slate digital plugincalled Heat?
(12:15):
That's where I initially wentwith that.
I could be I could be totallywrong.
I might be totally wrong withthat to be fair.
Um, but it does it's somethinglike that, yeah.
Brian (12:23):
Um, I could picture like a flame.
I could be.
And I just realized I couldprobably pull up the session and
like give you an actualrundown.
So I'm loading that in Cubaseright now.
Marc (12:33):
Oh no, I mean if we've got time at the end, we'll we'll go
through it.
But like the brief overview.
Yeah, I just want to make sureI'm being accurate.
So no, no, I appreciate that.
And revoice, I'm sure.
I'm sure, I sure I've got likea list, right?
Of plugins that I see, and I'mthinking I'll I'll I'll I'll
have a look at that at somepoint.
I'm sure revoice is on there.
I'm positive it is.
(12:53):
I think I saw an advert for it,and I was like, that looks
pretty cool, man.
Brian (12:55):
It's an insane time saver.
So like I use it a lot foraligning vocals.
So like anytime Jay has like astack of vocals, or even with
Chroma Cloud, like this thislast song we did, there was
literally 120 vocal tracks allhappening at once, singing the
same thing.
Bananas, yeah.
And so I fed everything throughRe Voice Pro.
And even though everybody has adifferent tone and everybody's
(13:19):
hitting consonants a littledifferent, it's going to align
the consonant together.
It's going to make it so thatthe ends of words are lining up
together.
So it sounds like you know,everybody's intentional, uh,
even though these are allrecorded from different parts of
the universe coming together.
It just it's a one buttonclick, and it's like, God, why
didn't I think to grab this like10 years ago?
(13:41):
I I could have saved a year oftime accumulating.
Jay (13:44):
That sounds great, man.
I have um, I actually havevocaline uh re pitch and I think
revoice.
I did like some bundle where Igot all three of them, but I
haven't really messed with withrevoice yet.
But maybe when I get that newcomputer set up, I'll I'll dig
more deeper into that.
Marc (14:01):
Well, yeah, it you've inspired me to check it out that
I was working on the projectjust I think a couple days ago,
and I was sat there using theflex tool in logic, just moving
stuff around.
And I'm thinking, I mean, Ilove getting granular and nerdy
like that, but then I'mthinking, you know what?
Time is precious.
Time is precious, man.
I shouldn't be sat here doingdoing this, but I'll do it
(14:21):
anyway, you know.
Um, with regards to that, youmentioned there 300 tracks,
right?
Which to the audience listeningprobably sounds like quite a
lot.
Processing.
Brian (14:30):
What sort of rig are you running?
Nothing great.
And I was actually talking withJay about this uh just the
other day.
Um, I bought an M1 Max Studiolast year and 64 gigs of RAM,
you know, it's it's uh it's themax core, so it's it's
definitely awesome.
But because of these sessionsI'm running and I do a lot of
orchestral scoring as well, it'sit's really starting to choke.
(14:54):
So Jay texted me, he's like,dude, I just got this M4, and
I'm like, I'm gonna have to getone too, aren't I?
Marc (15:03):
M4.
I the is I I'm I'm still at M2,right?
I've got an M1 Mac Studio, andI knew I was aware of the M2.
There's the M4 has beenreleased now.
Jay (15:11):
Yeah, I got the Mac Studio M4.
I it's in the box.
I haven't even opened it yet.
Marc (15:17):
But oh man, I'm way out of the loop.
I didn't know that was uh I'massuming there's not an M3, they
just went M2 to M2 there is anM3, yeah.
Oh, there is.
I'm way out of the loop when itcomes to Apple products.
I thought I was quite uh quiteup to speed with it.
Brian (15:31):
You can't be on it all the time, you know.
It's it's uh it's exhaustingtrying to keep up with this
stuff.
Jay (15:35):
Well, this is true.
I'm still on an iPhone 12though, even if I have the uh
the M4 behind me.
I'm still like five generationsbehind on the phone, but it's
yeah.
Marc (15:45):
I made the jump over it's way tangent now.
I made the jump over to SamSamsung a while ago.
I think it was a protest by mebecause I had like a I had like
a map, I had a MacBook Pro, Ihad an iMac at the time, I had
an iPad, an iPhone, and I thinkit was just a protest for me,
thinking, you know, I'm notgonna let them monopolize me and
um and then realize it's anabsolute ball ache when it comes
(16:06):
to um syncing all the stufftogether, but that was my own
fault.
So uh moving moving back to thevocals, so you've mentioned
there about uh about revoice.
So when you've got the sort ofthe the chorus vocal, you've got
the verse vocal, can you maybeoffer some tips, some guidance
or strategies that you use inparticular in this track to sort
(16:27):
of separate the two and have soyou've got that that greater
impact in the chorus?
Brian (16:30):
That's a great question, yeah.
So um I love using width as adynamic tool.
So, like keeping the verse,like if you're doing a double on
the verse, you know, keepingthem fairly mono, maybe take
your double and bring it down alittle bit, but then we get to
the chorus, and maybe there's adouble on that too, but suddenly
it's a bit wider.
(16:51):
And that can be done if youdon't have a doubler, you can uh
I'm sorry, if you don't have auh double track, you can
manufacture that with like adoubler.
Uh, you know, Waves has one ofthose, uh Sidewinder from uh JST
is amazing too.
Um and actually I was using umI've got it pulled up now, uh
(17:12):
MicroShift from uh Sound Toys.
Um just mixing that in ever soslightly and giving it a little
bit of a chorusy effect, butjust moving it out a little bit
so that uh, as you mentioned,when the chorus comes in, it
feels bigger.
You know, we've we've got allthese other instruments that we
have to contend with, and it hasto be bigger as well, uh, in in
(17:36):
my mind, because you know,bigger is always better, uh
obviously.
Marc (17:41):
Yeah.
And it certainly works.
I love that the idea of usingwidth.
I think it's fantastic, andusing that in particular to open
it out in the chorus and getthat just accentuating that that
wall of sound.
So, with regards to the vocal,another another point I made
here is the breakdown vocal atthree minutes 19.
There's an effect there.
Um, Jay, uh, maybe you couldtalk us through like your
(18:02):
initial thoughts on what youwanted the vocal to sound like
there, and then maybe Brian, howyou implemented that.
Jay (18:07):
Yeah, so initially I I kept referring uh to that section as
the demon vocal.
Um, I just knew that like therewas such a wall of emotion like
leading up to that point.
I really wanted to just kind ofbring it down.
It's almost like it's almost inmy mind, it's me like having a
sigh, you know, and I'm I'm I'mreciting the the chorus lyric.
(18:28):
Um, but then like um originallyI just kind of layered some
vocals so it was really deep,and it was like I said the line,
um, I'm playing with fire,whatever I say there.
Um, but I think Brian just tookthat and he just made it
gnarly.
And I'm like, yeah, yeah, thatsounds great.
But yeah, that was the wholeidea.
I kind of wanted to bring itdown emotionally a little bit,
(18:49):
you know, it's a sigh.
I'm just kind of singing, andthen you know, just think of
like my eyes opening and thatvoice comes out, and then the
chorus just comes back in reallybig.
Um, so that was that was my myvision in my mind for for that
little breakdown.
Marc (19:02):
Nice, and then yeah, Brian, maybe if you could just
talk through like what youactually did, what you used on
that particular vocal.
Brian (19:09):
Yeah, so that is a vocoder, and for years I've been
using the vocal synth 2 fromIsotope, which is awesome.
Um and I felt like actually,no, I recently got the baby
audio pack.
Uh I'm I'm such a glutton.
Like uh getting all theseplug-in packs and and
(19:32):
subscription plans, and uh it'sit's amazing I can, you know, uh
stay afloat.
But uh I I love this this packfrom Baby Audio because it does
everything a little left tocenter.
Everything's really weird andawesome.
Um, I've got a million EQs, youknow, I can always pull
something up or you know, amillion compressors, but uh the
way that they handle likereverbs or delays um is is very,
(19:55):
very different and is veryinspiring.
So they have a really coolvocoder called humanoid.
And the reason I gravitatedtowards that is because it gave
like this really cool uh like TChelicon vibe that you know, if
if you know Image and Heap,she's using that on uh hide and
seek.
I think Sleep Token's usingthat on um fall for me.
(20:16):
Uh so I wanted that reallygritty uh digital kind of sound,
but it gives you a lot ofreally awesome control with like
formants and uh width and toneand number of bands.
It's it's really awesome.
So I was I was using that.
And then with any kind ofvocoder, you've got to control
it because those can get justnasty.
(20:37):
So uh definitely used Soothe 2.
Um, if you're not familiar withthat, that is another great
time saver.
Holy cow! Um and then uh let'ssee.
Another JST plug-in, which is aHoward Benson vocal multiplier
just to give it some more width.
And uh it's it's got thisreally cool low octave
(21:00):
synthesizer.
So it uh gave it a low end,like a bottom that it wasn't
there to begin with, and justmade it sound to to Jay's point,
just just monster, you know,um, into a room reverb and then
another doubler just because,you know.
Yeah, why not?
Marc (21:18):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Uh that's what I like aboutbreakdowns in my own tunes that
I produce.
Uh with when it comes tobreakdowns, I'm just kind of
like, how weird.
Maybe weird's the wrong word,but like depending on what the
the where the where the track isgoing, I'm thinking what what
can I throw at this to make itjust sound really interesting?
So it's not just a nicesounding vocal.
You just gotta make it soundinteresting, it's got to pull
(21:40):
the listener, which is what itdid because it made me write the
note here.
It's like, what is that?
What have they done to that?
But Soothe 2, man.
Um, I made the jump over toSoutheo probably about two weeks
ago.
Uh, I was like, you know what?
I'm gonna give it a go and I'mgonna see what happens.
And it is fantastic,ultimately.
I was prior to that, I wasusing uh Isotope Sculptor, which
(22:00):
is uh very much a water down,yeah.
It's okay, it's not bad.
Um, but Soof 2, the parametersand the control in it is just so
good.
Have you used somebody asked methis the other day?
Um I want to say smoothoperator, but that might be
because I was listening toSmooth Operator is another baby
audio.
Um I'm thinking of Sarday, butyeah, yeah.
Brian (22:20):
Um I can't get it to work.
I don't understand it.
It's it's one of those pluginsthat like I don't know if Cubase
hates or something.
Um, but like I was like, ohcool, it's like a like an
alternative to Soothe, but likeum I'll use it and then I'll
close the session, bring it backup, and then nothing goes
through, like no audio goesthrough that change until I get
(22:41):
rid of Smooth Operator.
So uh baby audio.
Uh let me try it again.
Yeah, let's let's worktogether, you know?
Marc (22:50):
Yeah, yeah.
I I can imagine it's it's oneof those I was asked, I've been
asked a couple times what mythoughts are with regards to
comparing the two, and I'venever used used that one.
But I was speaking of MichaelOakley um on the episode on the
podcast a few weeks ago, and umhe's uh he he mentions using it,
but couldn't tell you what doorhe was using though, to be
fair.
Couldn't tell you what door,but that's a pain in the ass
(23:11):
though, if you got it and itdoesn't work.
Baby audio, sort it out.
There we go.
Well, this is this is true.
Yeah, it is a fantasticplug-in.
The the controls in it are sogood.
So good.
Yeah, yeah.
Um let's move on to guitars andsynths.
I think this is a good one togo into now.
So, Jay, you're you're writingyour tune, you're producing and
(23:33):
whatnot.
Synth wave.
How do you fit guitars intoyour songwriting when paired
when sort of paired with synths?
Because I find with synth withguitars in particular, with
synths as well, you gottathey've they've gotta work
together.
And sometimes you can go a bitoverboard.
Not yourself, but it it'spossible to go overboard with
the two.
Jay (23:53):
Yeah.
Um for me, I I just I feel likewhen I'm writing, I just kind
of go for what sounds good to myear.
And I never go in with theintention that guitars are like
supposed to be like a big focalpoint of of the music I'm
writing.
Obviously, Sabbard's kind of anexception, Flames in the Sky
(24:13):
kind of an exception becausethey're more rock-leaning tunes,
but um, you know, they'rethey're meant to just kind of be
a lair rather than super standout.
Um but yeah, I mean for me,it's just what sounds good to my
ear, you know.
I don't really like boxingmyself in when it comes to you
know having sense, you know,conflicting with guitar or what
(24:37):
have you.
It's like if it sounds good tomy ear and we can get a good mix
on it, that's that's that'sgood enough for me.
Marc (24:44):
So that's fair, man.
When it when it comes to theguitars, how many tracks?
Guitar tracks.
So you got rhythm guitar?
How many guitar tracks are yourecording?
At any time during this song,I'm just doing left and right.
Nice, nice, nice.
And what uh I haven't got this,I didn't prep you with this one
here.
Go what uh AMP SIM are weusing?
(25:05):
Uh for this one I'm using theuh uh Neural DSP Gajira X.
Oh, good job.
I haven't tried the Gajira one.
I've got the Pritchucci and Ithink it was the I want to say
the Pliny one.
Did it?
Was it Pliny?
It might have been the Plinyone.
Brian (25:19):
I don't have either of those, but I'm super interested
in the Pliny because the Cleanssound incredible.
But I'm also a giant dreamtheater fan.
Marc (25:26):
So love his very good.
The uh the cleans, the cleansfor both are brilliant.
I I I lent towards getting thePiucci one purely on the basis
of the distorted the rhythmtones I thought were more
inclined to what I was after atthe time, but yeah, the Pliny
stuff.
I remember I first saw Plinywhen I went to watch Periphery
and they supported andadmittedly never heard I hadn't
(25:48):
heard of them before.
It was fantastic, man.
It was it was so good.
Uh and then my friend and Iwere stood there and we were
just like, Who what what who isthis band?
And they were just playing thisreally the the sounds coming
out from the guitar.
I was like, This is amazing.
And that obviously Peripherycame out, and I was just like,
This is this is insane.
Love Periphery.
Oh my god, one of my favorites,yeah, so so good.
(26:11):
And uh, I just reminded myselfto go back and give him a
listen, it's been a while.
Um, yeah, the vocals, the vote,like some of the notes that
that that dude can hear, and hedid it live as well.
There's what I cannot rememberthe track, but he hits a note on
the recording, and I'mthinking, can he replicate that
live?
Brian (26:29):
And it was just like Spencer is very disciplined when
it comes to his voice.
Like, I've I've got some vocalcourses from him, and he like
has tons of great secrets, anduh, but it's all about just like
you know, using your voicecorrectly.
Marc (26:42):
Yeah, 100%, man.
Warming up, which I fell foulof.
I never used to do even thoughI'm not a singer, uh, I do the
podcast, so I talk a lot, and uhit did have a detrimental
effect on my voice, and now I'vegot to do vocal exercises every
time I come to do these things,which is quite interesting.
Yeah, yeah, man.
I've I had to go see a vocaltherapist and everything.
So I've got all these exercisesto do to um to stop me losing
(27:03):
my voice.
Well, this is it.
Um with regards to the guitarsthen and and mixing, what's your
approach to so you've gotguitars synths uh uh uh playing
at the same time?
What's generally your I Isuppose it depends on the track,
right?
But what's your approachusually to sort of balancing
those?
Brian (27:21):
What's the and that?
Yeah, I mean, a lot of it ispriority.
Um, so anytime I open up a mix,I I have to think about well,
what is the focal point of thesong?
What is helping everythingelse, and what needs to be like
more felt than heard?
And based on Jay's vision, theguitars were definitely the the
latter, which was that they justneed to be felt, not heard,
(27:44):
really.
So just giving a little bit ofextra aggression, just filling
out a little bit more space.
Um, so if you were to removethe guitars, like you could feel
an absence, but it's also thethe guitars aren't like a focal
point in the mix.
You know, we have all thesesynthesizers, we've got, and we
can't let anything get in theway of the vocal because that is
our like priority number one.
(28:04):
That's gotta be like the thethe first the first and last
thing that the listener walksaway with from the song.
Um, and so I'm doing you knowplenty of uh carving on that.
Like I'm looking at my pro Qand I'm just like, you know,
dipping like crazy.
Um and uh let me see here.
(28:25):
Yeah, uh really, really basicstuff, but just trying to try to
get it out of the way ofeverything, especially since we
have so many synth layers.
Um now something that I learnedwhen I started really uh
working with uh guitars andsynths together is like so if
you've been mixing for anyamount of time, we we all know
(28:47):
to to high pass everything toget lots of room for the low
end.
You know, we gotta get thatkick to come through, that bass
has got to be uninhibited, thosegot to work together, and there
can't be anything else there tomuddy up that space, right?
You gotta do the same thingwith the top end, especially
with anything synth-heavy.
So we got all these airy uhsounds, all these pads, all
(29:08):
these you know, boop boops andplucky plucks and and the sizzle
from uh a guitar cab, you know,guitar cab.
Um, and uh it can just be amess up there if you're not
careful.
So, in addition to highpassing, low passing as well, to
make sure that it doesn'tcreate this giant mess, but
(29:28):
you're also making room for likeyour hi-hats, your cymbals, and
most importantly, the clarityand the air of the vocal.
Marc (29:38):
Wise words, and I think it's one that is often not
spoken of enough.
Because I think there is a lotof emphasis on tidying up,
cleaning up, however we want tophrase it, the low end.
But maybe we're not paying asmuch attention as we should to
the top end, as you mentionedthere, in particular with the
instruments that we're workingwith, like you say there with
synths and guitars.
(29:58):
So, audience listening.
It's something to be aware ofbecause again, not something I
listen to a lot of audiopodcasts and consume a lot of
content, and it's not somethingthat comes into much discussion.
Maybe I'm maybe not consumingthe right content, but something
that I don't hear probablyenough spoken of, I think.
I don't know what you guysthink.
Brian (30:18):
I couldn't speak to that, honestly.
Um, I think the biggest changefor me was when I updated my
monitors.
So I've been using Dynaudio uhBM5s, I think, for years and
years and years.
I learned how to mix on thoseand they just felt like home.
Um and then I started hearingfrom some of my artists, some of
(30:41):
the people that I work with,they're like, hey, I think we
got to pay more attention to thetop.
And I, you know, that there'ssomething going on there.
And these are like the BM5s arepretty dark.
So I ended up getting the uhthe Adam A7Xs, which have those
those ribbon tweeters.
They're like they're supposedto go all the way up to like
22k.
And I was like, my God, thesemixes are a mess.
(31:04):
And I'm I I had to emaileverybody and like, I'm so
sorry, this is horrible.
But and and so the point thatI'm trying to make there is, you
know, sometimes that's notsomething that we uh address in
our mixes because we don't havethe capability to listen to it.
You know, a lot of monitors,you know, things like the uh the
(31:26):
K rocks, you know, they'rethey're pretty scooped, they're
they're pretty low end heavy.
I haven't listened to them foryears, but like what's the top
end like?
Um, and that's like the the Ifeel like the the speaker system
that a lot of people will startout with.
Um not all of us have, youknow, $1,800 to to drop on these
atoms, but being able to hearthat, I think is really, really
(31:48):
important to be able to diagnoseand say, am I doing too much up
here?
Marc (31:54):
Yeah.
And also conducive to that ishaving a treated room and the
environment you're in as well,right?
With regards to that's becauseit is the analogy, isn't it?
If you're if you're like apainter is not going to use a
particular filter.
If you're putting a filter onsomething that you're trying to
create, this is a really pooranalogy that I'm coming up with
here.
But it's gonna have a it'sgonna there's gonna be
coloration.
There's gonna be coloration onwhatever it is you're creating
(32:16):
based on that environment.
So yeah, very, very important,very important stuff.
Um, but with regards to thesynths, just bringing it back to
that, Jay.
Um, you mentioned that you wereusing VSTs.
Maybe if you could name uh someof the your go-to VSTs that
you're using.
Jay (32:33):
Um, right now it's it's really simple.
Um, trying to build up myarsenal, but uh I'm using Serum
2 a lot and um Anna 2 as well.
Um, and then I got you knowjust some packs um within that.
Um one by uh vintage soundset.
Um I got a couple of his uhsynthwave um packs and he does a
great job.
So um yeah, always looking fornew stuff, but that's kind of
(32:57):
what you know what I've beenusing.
Marc (32:59):
Good choices, man.
I used the same.
I've got Anna 2, I've got Serum2, uh both fantastic.
Been using Anna 2 for years.
I got it with the slate digitalbundle many years ago, and then
I've recently started usingSerum 2.
Uh I moved over from Massive, Iwas using Massive a bit, but
stopped using that so much now.
But no, Serum 2's great, man.
(33:19):
Um, what what door are youusing out of interest?
Um, I use Logic Pro.
Jay (33:24):
Yeah, I'm out of Logic.
Yeah, used Alchemy.
Um, I I have, yeah.
I don't know if I've used it inany actual tracks.
Yeah.
Um, but I did kind of gothrough you know some of the
presets in there for way longerthan I'd like to admit.
Uh but um yeah, yeah, I'vechecked it out for sure.
There's some good stuff inthere.
Marc (33:44):
Yeah, it's it's interesting.
It is a great plugin for a freeplugin, it's super good.
Yeah, I I find myself using itmore for like if I want just
random sound effects, if there'sjust some A-ton or something
like that, some sounds in there.
I find it's really, reallyuseful for.
Uh Jensen, in the interest oftime, uh, because I don't want
to keep you too long, I thinkit'd be quite interesting to
move on to sort of the dynamicsand loudness side of things as
(34:05):
well.
So I've I'm I hope I hopefullyI'm right in saying this, Brian,
but you also mastered the trackas well.
Cool, I got that right.
Fantastic stuff.
So I the master sits aroundsort of minus, I got here on my
notes, 7.8 lufts around thatsort of area.
So, and it sounds fantastic,right?
So, how did you keep it atbecause that's relatively hot,
(34:27):
let's say.
How did you keep it, get it tothat sort of level, but like
maintain the dynamics and theclarity in the tune, in the
transcript song?
Brian (34:35):
Yeah, it's a great question.
And and you know, thank you forthe praise.
Um I can't master anything.
Full stop, just kidding.
Um, I push buttons until thingsare really hot.
Um, no, I can't master anythingwithout referencing other
material.
Like, I I think that should bea rule that anyone follows uh
(34:57):
forever, whether you're mixing,mastering, even production or
songwriting.
Um, but I have an amazingplugin uh called Metric A B.
Um and it is by adapter, andit's uh if you remember uh Magic
A B, it's the exact same.
It was just like, you know, itthey put a new finish on it.
(35:19):
Um but what I can do is I havea button over here.
I'll pull up a tune in the samevein.
Like I'll go to you know,Bandcamp and you know purchase a
track that were like, you know,hey, we we like this vibe, we
like the loudness here, and I'lljust you know back and forth A
B that against the mix.
And I'll start with the thelimiter, try and get the
(35:40):
choruses to kind of match involume, and then we'll we'll
start to look at things liketone, you know, globally.
What does the the EQ curve needto look like?
Then we get more granular, uh,you know, obviously some kind of
bus compressor to give it somesome movement and some uh energy
and punch.
Um but then when you start withyour master chain, this allows
(36:06):
you to hear problems or even seeproblems.
If you're looking like atanalyzers, uh, that you can go
like, okay, now I have achecklist of things to go down.
So starting with the master,getting it nice and loud, nice
and hot, I'm I'm like, oh myGod, this thing is doing like 10
dB gain reduction.
My my limiter is on the snareand the kick.
(36:28):
Okay, great.
We need to soft clip those, orwe need to find a way to get
those to be more controlled.
Um, and so you you constantlyuse metric A B so that you're
still in line with what you'redoing.
You're constantly watching youruh uh your limiter to make sure
that you're not just destroyingthe track, but then you use
(36:50):
that as like a diagnostic tool.
Um uh man, when the when thevocals come in, those are uh
really eating up the limiter.
Okay, maybe I should use amulti-band compressor before the
limiter so that when the vocalscome in, it's kind of gluing
everything together, pullingeverything down, but doing it so
(37:10):
minuscuely that it's not likepumping or anything.
Um, and then using like, youknow, track space and and things
like that is is really, reallyuseful.
Um, and I've just beenrambling.
I don't even know if I'veanswered the question.
Marc (37:21):
No, no, no, no.
It's perfect, right?
It it this is fantastic.
So, with regards to thatmastering process, are you have
you got the limiter at thebeginning?
Are you working backwards fromthe limiter?
Does that make sense?
Brian (37:31):
And then Yeah, yeah.
So I love top-down mixing.
Yeah.
Um, so when Jay and I firststarted on this track, um to go
back a couple conversations, Iwould send him like whips.
So he asked me, Hey, can can wedo extra guitars?
Can we do extra production?
Um, I was helping him beef uplike the drum samples and you
(37:53):
know, get some more uh body outof some of these, you know,
synth bases.
And so we'd be, you know,sending stuff back and forth,
uh, like, hey, how do we likethe vibe on this?
That's production.
I'm not looking for luffs, I'mnot looking for everything to
really come together.
I am mixing a little bit as Igo, uh, just to save myself some
hassle uh further down theline.
But once I mentally move fromproduction is finished, we're
(38:19):
now on to the mix, that's when Istart top down.
Uh because I'm mixing as I go,the flavor is already there.
We're just getting everythingto play nice together.
So, yes, I do the top-downapproach where I kind of start
at the uh stereo bus and kind ofwork backwards.
(38:41):
I'll start at the stereo bus,do as much as I can there, go to
my group stems.
So, like if all the drums needcompressed together, I'll put a
compressor on that.
If all the vocals need uh,like, oh my God, uh, and and
this happens to me all the time.
Brian, when you sing, there'sthis like this weird 2K thing
that happens everywhere.
Okay, great, let's just putthat on everything.
Um, and then I'll get reallymodular, really micro, and then
(39:05):
go to the track level if I needto.
Like I was talking about, thekick is like really transient
heavy.
Great, let's soften that withsome clipping.
And so working my waybackwards, but always keeping an
eye on the stereo out andmaking sure that's hitting the
references and the benchmarksthat we're setting, setting.
Yeah.
Marc (39:23):
Wise words, my friend.
Yeah.
Um the top-down approach is isa fantastic way of doing it.
I really like it.
And I think it's a good way ofnot over processing as well.
Exactly.
Brian (39:34):
Yeah, I think really minimal with it.
You can put out a ton of tunesif you start at the very end.
Marc (39:40):
Yeah, which it it does, it sounds counterintuitive, but it
really does work.
Because I think if you go theother way, I think particularly
if you're unsure of what it isyou're doing, then you can over
I find that's whereoverprocessing comes in, is
where individuals aren'tnecessarily sure if what they're
doing is correct, and then youjust do something because, well,
because and it might notnecessarily be conducive to the
(40:01):
tune.
But no, really interesting,interesting stuff.
Um Jay, throwing this over toyou.
When it came to the masteringphase of things, did you have
any um requirements?
Was there a conversation, orwas it just Brian?
You know what you're doing, Itrust you, do your thing.
Jay (40:18):
Um, there yeah, obviously was some of that, but um no,
Brian and I, we have a verygreat working relationship um
all through to the very end, youknow, of mastering.
Um I think Sebord had what,Brian, like maybe five.
We did like what five revisionson that one.
Brian (40:35):
Yeah, and they weren't crazy, like yeah, they weren't
crazy revisions, but I just youknow, I just little things, you
know, that I want to hear.
Jay (40:45):
Um, but but yeah, I think um yeah, we're start to finish,
him and I are communicating, youknow.
Um in yeah, it's great.
I love it.
I love working with that guy.
Marc (41:00):
Fantastic stuff, guys.
It's a it's a nice, nice way toend the almost end the
conversation.
So I've got one one otherquestion here for you, Jay.
Um, and this is what advicewould you give to an indie
artist working with a mixedengineer for the first time?
Jay (41:18):
Um I'd say probably try to be as prepared and thorough in
what you're looking to get outof your project.
You know, because when you havea clear vision of your
destination ahead, um, thathelps everybody, right?
It'll help you because you knowexactly where where you'd like
(41:40):
to go.
It'll help the the engineerthat you're working with
understand kind of like theartist that you are or aspiring
to be.
Um, and you know, there'sthere's always room to learn
along the ro the along the way,right?
So you don't have to have allthe answers, but if you kind of
have as clear of a vision aspossible to where you'd like to
go, then you're already 10 stepsahead.
(42:03):
But yeah, just being prepared.
Um, you know, trying to to ifwhen you're sending over demos
and stuff like that, just youknow, if they got guidelines,
like like Brian will send over abunch of guidelines of how he'd
like things, and that's great.
Um, so just read, follow therules, you know, make it easier
for everybody.
Marc (42:22):
So fantastic.
Brilliant.
Uh wise words, Jay.
Thank you very much.
Uh gents, it's been an absolutepleasure chatting with you
today with regards to this.
Uh no, it it has it has beenbrilliant.
And I think the biggest, one ofthe biggest takeaways to take
away from this is kind ofechoing what you just said
there, Jay, really, which isabout the vision and
communication.
I think if you start off andyou're both aligned with that in
(42:43):
particular, then you're settingthe foundation for something
good, you know.
I think, most definitely.
Um, before we wrap up, I alwaysdo this with anybody on the
show.
Uh, maybe we'll start withyourself, Brian.
Um, is there anything you'dlike to share with our audience?
And where can they find youonline?
If they want to think more.
Brian (42:59):
Sure.
So, as Mark mentioned at thebeginning of the podcast, I am
one half of the synthpop duoChroma Cloud.
And we've got a song coming outuh this Friday, the uh the
19th.
I don't know if the episode'sgonna be gonna air uh before
that or after that, but it'scalled Find Us.
Uh, and you can find us.
Terrible, terrible.
(43:21):
Go ahead and cut that.
Uh but you can find us on allthe things.
Uh Instagram, we're on Spotify,we got TikTok, we got presence
everywhere.
So uh if you like the kind ofstuff that Jay does, uh check us
out.
We actually also did acollaboration with Jay with our
song Flames in the Sky.
Um and so if you if you likewhat Jay does, come check us
(43:45):
out.
Thank you.
Marc (43:46):
Fantastic.
This episode is going to dropafter that day.
But what I will do is I alwaysdo, folks, audience listening, I
will put links to the songs inthe episode show notes.
And in Spotify now, you canactually put direct links to the
song in the podcast.
So you can click on thatwithout actually having to click
a hyper link, which is which isfantastic.
Thank you, Spotify.
Thank you very much.
(44:06):
Uh Drumwave uh I was gonna giveyou Cali then.
Jay, uh, where can the audiencefind you online?
Any news?
What have you got going on?
Jay (44:15):
Yeah, so you can find me on Instagram at J Cali Drums, um,
at drumwave, pretty much allacross the board on all socials.
Um, I got new music coming.
You know, I can't say too muchjust yet, but it's being worked
on uh with my boy Brian here.
Um yeah, and there's definitelymore to come on, you know, the
the the playing front as well.
(44:37):
Um, but I can't really say toomuch about that yet.
But there's a lot of cool stuffcoming for 2026.
Um, I'm very excited.
I'm excited to keep releasingmusic and to keep working with
Brian.
And yeah, it's gonna be great.
Marc (44:51):
Fantastic.
Again, links in the episodeshow notes.
Uh, audience listening, uh, onecall to action for you guys.
Uh, this is a challenge.
What I want you to do is takeone of your unfinished tracks
with with guitars and synths andvocals, and then take one tip
that you've learned from thispodcast today, and then
implement that in your project.
And then send me a message.
You can click the link in theepisode description, send me a
(45:12):
message with a link to thatparticular project or your
discovery, your findings, and uhI'll give you a shout out on
the podcast as well, and ofcourse, pass it to um to Jay and
Brian as well as feedback.
But again, gents, a big thankyou.
Thank you very much forspending the time with me today.
And uh, audience listening,until next time, stay inspired,
keep creating, and don't beafraid to experiment inside the
(45:34):
mix.
I do the top-down approach where I kind of start
at the uh stereo bus and kind ofwork backwards.
I'll start at the stereo bust,do as much as I can there, go to
my group stems.
So like if all the drums needcompressed together, I'll put a
compressor on that.
If all the vocals need uh like,oh my god, uh and and this
happens to me all the time.
(00:21):
Brian, when you sing, there'sthis like this weird 2K thing
that happens everywhere.
Okay, great, let's just putthat on everything.
Marc (00:27):
You're listening to the Inside the Mix podcast with your
host, Mark Matthews.
Welcome to Inside the Mix, yourgo-to podcast for music
creation and production.
Whether you're crafting yourfirst track or refining your
mixing skills, join me each weekfor expert interviews,
practical tutorials, andinsights to help you level up
(00:48):
your music and smash it in themusic industry.
Let's dive in.
Hey folks, welcome to Insidethe Mix.
In this episode, I am joined byvocalist, writer, and producer
Jay Kelly, better known asDrumwave and artist, producer
and mix engineer Bri BrianSkeel.
And uh this is a first.
(01:11):
Is it a first?
It's been a long time.
It's not a first, I should tella lie.
It's been a long time sinceI've had more than one person on
the podcast at any one point.
So, audience, do bear with me.
I think it's been about two,possibly three years since I've
had more than one person.
So navigating that is gonna bequite interesting.
But I'm excited for this one.
Fellas, thanks for joining me.
How are we today?
Jay (01:31):
Doing well, man.
Thank you very much for havingus.
This is very exciting.
Brian (01:35):
Yeah, doing great.
It's a nice sunny day out.
And so naturally I'm in my darkbasement in the air
conditioning.
Marc (01:42):
I was gonna say that.
It's a nice sunny day.
And then if you're if you'rewatching this, you can see this
uh viewers, listeners, you cansee that Brian's uh sort of
environment.
It's quite dark, even though itis.
But that that's that that isthe life we lead, isn't it?
In audio, you know, you lockyourself away when it's nice
outside.
So, folks, if you don't knowJay yet, he's the full-time
touring drummer for SynthwaveLegend Time Cop 983, and he's
(02:05):
stepping out as drumwave, hisfirst solo project, where he
takes the mic as vocalist,writer, and producer.
And Brian, of course, he's anartist and producer for
Columbus, Ohio.
One half of the Synth Pop DuoChroma Cloud and a powerhouse
mixing engineer who's workedwith the lights of Cellar
Dweller, Scandroid, andcountless indie artists
worldwide as well.
And he's got credits on HBO,Netflix, and the CW.
(02:28):
Forgive me, what is the CW?
Brought that my notes, I didn'tknow.
Brian (02:31):
The CW is uh kind of a broadcast channel here.
I guess they moved the cable,but there's lots of like drama
on uh that network.
Marc (02:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I I've got in my notes, and Ithink I've got written here like
question mark, but I neveractually went and found out what
it was.
I thought, oh, I'll ask now.
But there we go.
Um, folks, before we dive intothis, uh, so I just want to let
you know by the end of thisepisode what you're gonna walk
away with.
So we're gonna go through somepractical tips for keeping
clarity and dense mixes.
So we've got synths andguitars, uh, strategies for
(02:59):
balancing vocals as well.
So we've got with thataggressive sort of
instrumentation and workflowinsights to maintain punch and
dynamics.
If you ever struggle to keepyour mix from collapsing, that's
quite that's quite a strongword there, collapsing, uh,
under layers of sound.
This conversation is for you.
But before we do that, if youlove what you're hearing and
want to support the show, pleasedo join the Inside the Mix
community on Patreon where youget exclusive content
(03:21):
behind-the-scenes insights andhelp this podcast keep going
strong.
So click the link in theepisode description.
So take a breather.
Um, let's start with Severed.
Great tune, by the way, mate.
I um when I was writing thenotes for this, I was listening
to it over and over.
And there's a remix of it,right?
As well, where it's it's spedup.
Is that correct?
Jay (03:42):
Yeah, I for some reason when I wrote this song, I kept
envisioning having a sped upversion of it.
Um, so when we were uh you knowin the bouncing stage, I'm
like, hey Brian, uh you think uhwe can get get this going?
He's like, Oh yeah, I do thatall the time.
So yeah.
Marc (03:58):
Nice, nice.
It just when I was listening toyour back catalogue as I do
when I'm putting these notestogether and the the outline for
the episode, it just came outof nowhere.
And I was like, I'm gonna haveto go check out what that is.
Uh it's good, it's quiteinteresting, it's quite cool,
man.
Um, so we're talking about thetune Severed, so it was kind of
like behind the music, if youwill.
When you wrote the choke, whenyou wrote the song, Severed,
what was the sonic vision inyour head?
(04:19):
Can you tell our audience?
Jay (04:21):
Oh wow.
Um I just pictured like mestanding on like a mountain
singing, you know, just a wallof sound behind me.
Um you know, just because thesong is kind of like it's it's a
cry, you know, from somethingthat I've been through in my
(04:43):
life, and I'm just kind ofletting it out and letting the
world know how I feel, but alsoin a moment of solitude.
So, you know, I just wanted thesong to be big.
I wanted it to be emotional.
Um, and you know, I just I Iwanted it to just like kind of
hit you, you know.
So, so yeah, I mean, with that,you know, you gotta have super
(05:04):
strong punchy drums in the mix.
Um, you know, guitars gotta besitting where they're where they
should be in in the synths, youknow, to kind of just you know
accentuate that vocal, you know.
So so that was it on my end.
What what I um what Ipersonally wanted, and obviously
Brian could probably delvedeeper into that on his end.
Marc (05:23):
Yeah, from the instrumentation side of things,
before we dive into that, youmentioned synths, you mentioned
guitars.
Are you uh the player of allthose instruments?
Are you the the guitarists?
Um VST synths or analog synths?
Jay (05:37):
Uh well so in the demo stages, I'm definitely just um
using all VST like stuff um inlike really crappy like guitar
sounds on there.
Um, and then when I send it alloff to Brian, he's um kind
enough to to put real guitarsand stuff like that um on the
tracks.
So um it doesn't sound you knowall wonky and cheesy.
(05:58):
So yeah, thankful for that.
Marc (06:00):
I love that.
And that's got that's a nicesegue to my question for Brian
then.
So you got this this sonicvision.
How did you translate that inthe mix?
Maybe just like an overalldescription of how that worked
out.
Brian (06:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
So Jay sent me the demo, andbefore I ever open Cubase or
download stems or anything, Ialways talk with the artist.
So uh we had like a you knowhour-long conversation on the
phone.
Um, I work with people all overthe world.
Sometimes that's just like youknow, hanging out on Zoom and
chatting through the vision thatthey're local.
(06:31):
We sit on the couch and pull upSpotify and just talk about
emotion and sonic canvas andwhat we like, what we don't
like.
We'll listen to you know acouple songs that are like, I
love the snare on this trackhere.
Is there any way we canincorporate that in this?
And so uh Jay and I were very,very on the same page with
(06:52):
basically everything.
It was like we were finishing,finishing each other's
sandwiches at that point.
It was it was great.
So all I had to do was, youknow, download the stems um and
just see that vision all the waythrough.
It was super clear.
Marc (07:07):
No, I like that phrase.
Um finish finishing eachother's sandwiches.
Uh I like that one, dude.
Yeah, yeah.
Brian (07:13):
If you don't have kids, that's from uh frozen.
Who is it?
Marc (07:17):
Yeah, uh well, there we go.
Uh I don't know that one then.
Um, but it did stand out.
So it's fair to say then thatthat conversation before you
even sit down and open the DAW,import the stems into your door,
that conversation is paramount.
And both of you pulling in thesame direction or heading in the
same direction with the samevision or the the visions
(07:38):
aligning into that onedirection, which is paramount.
Um, yeah, yeah.
In terms of the actual process,was it sort of an asynchronous
process?
Or was Jay, were you able to beinvolved whilst Brian was
mixing?
Did you do it that way, or wasit sort of Brian, you do your
thing, send it to Jay forfeedback?
(07:58):
How did how did that processwork?
Jay (08:01):
Well, um Brian does give you the option to sit in on the
session um if you want to, butyou know, I trust Brian, you
know, to do what he does andwhat he's a pro at.
Um, that's why I even wanted towork with him in the first
place.
So I kind of let him have hisfree reign, see what where his
years are leading him.
And then um, you know, when itcomes to revision uh phases, you
(08:24):
know, I could say, hey, youknow, I yeah, I like this, or I
think this needs to come up alittle bit.
You know, I I always send himparagraphs of notes, you know,
like of things that, you know,I, you know, I try to be as
detailed as I can, but um, youknow, Brian's very talented, so
like he's mentioned before,we're often like kind of meeting
in the middle, you know, whenit comes to um what he's hearing
(08:44):
and and what I'm hearing andtrying to like convey to him um
as best I can.
But yeah, so that's kind ofwhat it's like for me on my end.
Marc (08:53):
Nice.
Detailed notes is good though,man.
Like yeah, the more the moredetail, the better I find with
these things for you to work offof.
Most definitely.
So, right in your initialdescription of your vision, you
mentioned vocals, you mentionedstanding on that sort of
mountaintop water sound behindyou.
So, Brian, could you just walkus through like an overview of
(09:15):
your vocal chain and how you putthis together?
Um this vision that Jay had forthe vocal.
Brian (09:21):
Yeah, yeah.
So uh I'm definitely a wall ofsound producer.
Like the last track that I didfor my band ended up being like
300 tracks easy.
Um, and so I'm always the guythat's like more.
Um, and so Jay sent me theseamazing sounding vocal tracks,
and I'm like, but we need more.
So there's a really cool toolthat I've been using lately
(09:42):
called Revoice.
It's by the same people thatmake vocal line uh synchro arts,
I think.
And what it does is kind ofre-like you can feed it a vocal
and it will resynthesize adouble.
And so where Jay was sending mesingle tracks of a lead, I
would feed it through that andcome up with a double and just
make it that extra, extra big.
(10:04):
Um, and I did that throughoutthe track with like harmonies
and leads.
I was resynthesizing uhdifferent harmonies as well and
coming up with new uharrangements for that, which was
a lot of fun.
But after that, uh it's anynumber of things.
So I'll usually start with somekind of cleanup, uh, whether
it's like, you know, RX, mouthdeclicker, or gating.
(10:25):
Um, but then I'll usually runit through a this is getting
really nerdy.
I don't know how how nerdy weget on this.
Oh, go for it, man.
Keep going.
Yeah, yeah.
There are no rules here.
Oh, great.
So I'll I'll usually run itthrough like uh a series of um
effects through the slatevirtual mix rack.
So standard like SSL EQ.
(10:47):
Um I think with him I was usinga 401 compressor.
Maybe I was using a D uhdistressor as like parallel
compression.
Um after that, I was definitelydoing some DSing and I was
probably using the Fab filterDS.
Uh I love limiting vocals, soI'll always throw like a like an
L1 somewhere in the chain justto like really pin it, really
(11:11):
put it in place.
So that way uh there's a reallyinteresting sound that comes
out of that plug and it's alittle distorty, but you can
definitely maintain clarity.
But what it does is it pins itso that uh it's always in the
same like amplitude all the waythrough, but then you can you
know ride your automation andsay like the verse needs to come
down, uh, even though you knowthe the chorus is you know,
(11:33):
we're we're screaming our gutsout.
Um I'm sure I used, yes, I usedsome uh parallel distortion,
and that was likely heat fromJoey Surgis Tones, which is a
very underrated multi-banddistortion unit.
Uh very cool stuff.
Marc (11:54):
I love the distressor.
The slate digital uh virtualmix rack is great, man.
Oh my god, I'm a user of thatmyself.
Uh I love it.
And um the distressor inparticular, I had the pleasure
of using a distressor uh analogversion in studio once, and it
was so cool.
But the the the slate digitalone is fantastic.
And the heat, I hadn't heard ofthat one.
Is there a slate digital plugincalled Heat?
(12:15):
That's where I initially wentwith that.
I could be I could be totallywrong.
I might be totally wrong withthat to be fair.
Um, but it does it's somethinglike that, yeah.
Brian (12:23):
Um, I could picture like a flame.
I could be.
And I just realized I couldprobably pull up the session and
like give you an actualrundown.
So I'm loading that in Cubaseright now.
Marc (12:33):
Oh no, I mean if we've got time at the end, we'll we'll go
through it.
But like the brief overview.
Yeah, I just want to make sureI'm being accurate.
So no, no, I appreciate that.
And revoice, I'm sure.
I'm sure, I sure I've got likea list, right?
Of plugins that I see, and I'mthinking I'll I'll I'll I'll
have a look at that at somepoint.
I'm sure revoice is on there.
I'm positive it is.
(12:53):
I think I saw an advert for it,and I was like, that looks
pretty cool, man.
Brian (12:55):
It's an insane time saver.
So like I use it a lot foraligning vocals.
So like anytime Jay has like astack of vocals, or even with
Chroma Cloud, like this thislast song we did, there was
literally 120 vocal tracks allhappening at once, singing the
same thing.
Bananas, yeah.
And so I fed everything throughRe Voice Pro.
And even though everybody has adifferent tone and everybody's
(13:19):
hitting consonants a littledifferent, it's going to align
the consonant together.
It's going to make it so thatthe ends of words are lining up
together.
So it sounds like you know,everybody's intentional, uh,
even though these are allrecorded from different parts of
the universe coming together.
It just it's a one buttonclick, and it's like, God, why
didn't I think to grab this like10 years ago?
(13:41):
I I could have saved a year oftime accumulating.
Jay (13:44):
That sounds great, man.
I have um, I actually havevocaline uh re pitch and I think
revoice.
I did like some bundle where Igot all three of them, but I
haven't really messed with withrevoice yet.
But maybe when I get that newcomputer set up, I'll I'll dig
more deeper into that.
Marc (14:01):
Well, yeah, it you've inspired me to check it out that
I was working on the projectjust I think a couple days ago,
and I was sat there using theflex tool in logic, just moving
stuff around.
And I'm thinking, I mean, Ilove getting granular and nerdy
like that, but then I'mthinking, you know what?
Time is precious.
Time is precious, man.
I shouldn't be sat here doingdoing this, but I'll do it
(14:21):
anyway, you know.
Um, with regards to that, youmentioned there 300 tracks,
right?
Which to the audience listeningprobably sounds like quite a
lot.
Processing.
Brian (14:30):
What sort of rig are you running?
Nothing great.
And I was actually talking withJay about this uh just the
other day.
Um, I bought an M1 Max Studiolast year and 64 gigs of RAM,
you know, it's it's uh it's themax core, so it's it's
definitely awesome.
But because of these sessionsI'm running and I do a lot of
orchestral scoring as well, it'sit's really starting to choke.
(14:54):
So Jay texted me, he's like,dude, I just got this M4, and
I'm like, I'm gonna have to getone too, aren't I?
Marc (15:03):
M4.
I the is I I'm I'm still at M2,right?
I've got an M1 Mac Studio, andI knew I was aware of the M2.
There's the M4 has beenreleased now.
Jay (15:11):
Yeah, I got the Mac Studio M4.
I it's in the box.
I haven't even opened it yet.
Marc (15:17):
But oh man, I'm way out of the loop.
I didn't know that was uh I'massuming there's not an M3, they
just went M2 to M2 there is anM3, yeah.
Oh, there is.
I'm way out of the loop when itcomes to Apple products.
I thought I was quite uh quiteup to speed with it.
Brian (15:31):
You can't be on it all the time, you know.
It's it's uh it's exhaustingtrying to keep up with this
stuff.
Jay (15:35):
Well, this is true.
I'm still on an iPhone 12though, even if I have the uh
the M4 behind me.
I'm still like five generationsbehind on the phone, but it's
yeah.
Marc (15:45):
I made the jump over it's way tangent now.
I made the jump over to SamSamsung a while ago.
I think it was a protest by mebecause I had like a I had like
a map, I had a MacBook Pro, Ihad an iMac at the time, I had
an iPad, an iPhone, and I thinkit was just a protest for me,
thinking, you know, I'm notgonna let them monopolize me and
um and then realize it's anabsolute ball ache when it comes
(16:06):
to um syncing all the stufftogether, but that was my own
fault.
So uh moving moving back to thevocals, so you've mentioned
there about uh about revoice.
So when you've got the sort ofthe the chorus vocal, you've got
the verse vocal, can you maybeoffer some tips, some guidance
or strategies that you use inparticular in this track to sort
(16:27):
of separate the two and have soyou've got that that greater
impact in the chorus?
Brian (16:30):
That's a great question, yeah.
So um I love using width as adynamic tool.
So, like keeping the verse,like if you're doing a double on
the verse, you know, keepingthem fairly mono, maybe take
your double and bring it down alittle bit, but then we get to
the chorus, and maybe there's adouble on that too, but suddenly
it's a bit wider.
(16:51):
And that can be done if youdon't have a doubler, you can uh
I'm sorry, if you don't have auh double track, you can
manufacture that with like adoubler.
Uh, you know, Waves has one ofthose, uh Sidewinder from uh JST
is amazing too.
Um and actually I was using umI've got it pulled up now, uh
(17:12):
MicroShift from uh Sound Toys.
Um just mixing that in ever soslightly and giving it a little
bit of a chorusy effect, butjust moving it out a little bit
so that uh, as you mentioned,when the chorus comes in, it
feels bigger.
You know, we've we've got allthese other instruments that we
have to contend with, and it hasto be bigger as well, uh, in in
(17:36):
my mind, because you know,bigger is always better, uh
obviously.
Marc (17:41):
Yeah.
And it certainly works.
I love that the idea of usingwidth.
I think it's fantastic, andusing that in particular to open
it out in the chorus and getthat just accentuating that that
wall of sound.
So, with regards to the vocal,another another point I made
here is the breakdown vocal atthree minutes 19.
There's an effect there.
Um, Jay, uh, maybe you couldtalk us through like your
(18:02):
initial thoughts on what youwanted the vocal to sound like
there, and then maybe Brian, howyou implemented that.
Jay (18:07):
Yeah, so initially I I kept referring uh to that section as
the demon vocal.
Um, I just knew that like therewas such a wall of emotion like
leading up to that point.
I really wanted to just kind ofbring it down.
It's almost like it's almost inmy mind, it's me like having a
sigh, you know, and I'm I'm I'mreciting the the chorus lyric.
(18:28):
Um, but then like um originallyI just kind of layered some
vocals so it was really deep,and it was like I said the line,
um, I'm playing with fire,whatever I say there.
Um, but I think Brian just tookthat and he just made it
gnarly.
And I'm like, yeah, yeah, thatsounds great.
But yeah, that was the wholeidea.
I kind of wanted to bring itdown emotionally a little bit,
(18:49):
you know, it's a sigh.
I'm just kind of singing, andthen you know, just think of
like my eyes opening and thatvoice comes out, and then the
chorus just comes back in reallybig.
Um, so that was that was my myvision in my mind for for that
little breakdown.
Marc (19:02):
Nice, and then yeah, Brian, maybe if you could just
talk through like what youactually did, what you used on
that particular vocal.
Brian (19:09):
Yeah, so that is a vocoder, and for years I've been
using the vocal synth 2 fromIsotope, which is awesome.
Um and I felt like actually,no, I recently got the baby
audio pack.
Uh I'm I'm such a glutton.
Like uh getting all theseplug-in packs and and
(19:32):
subscription plans, and uh it'sit's amazing I can, you know, uh
stay afloat.
But uh I I love this this packfrom Baby Audio because it does
everything a little left tocenter.
Everything's really weird andawesome.
Um, I've got a million EQs, youknow, I can always pull
something up or you know, amillion compressors, but uh the
way that they handle likereverbs or delays um is is very,
(19:55):
very different and is veryinspiring.
So they have a really coolvocoder called humanoid.
And the reason I gravitatedtowards that is because it gave
like this really cool uh like TChelicon vibe that you know, if
if you know Image and Heap,she's using that on uh hide and
seek.
I think Sleep Token's usingthat on um fall for me.
(20:16):
Uh so I wanted that reallygritty uh digital kind of sound,
but it gives you a lot ofreally awesome control with like
formants and uh width and toneand number of bands.
It's it's really awesome.
So I was I was using that.
And then with any kind ofvocoder, you've got to control
it because those can get justnasty.
(20:37):
So uh definitely used Soothe 2.
Um, if you're not familiar withthat, that is another great
time saver.
Holy cow! Um and then uh let'ssee.
Another JST plug-in, which is aHoward Benson vocal multiplier
just to give it some more width.
And uh it's it's got thisreally cool low octave
(21:00):
synthesizer.
So it uh gave it a low end,like a bottom that it wasn't
there to begin with, and justmade it sound to to Jay's point,
just just monster, you know,um, into a room reverb and then
another doubler just because,you know.
Yeah, why not?
Marc (21:18):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Uh that's what I like aboutbreakdowns in my own tunes that
I produce.
Uh with when it comes tobreakdowns, I'm just kind of
like, how weird.
Maybe weird's the wrong word,but like depending on what the
the where the where the track isgoing, I'm thinking what what
can I throw at this to make itjust sound really interesting?
So it's not just a nicesounding vocal.
You just gotta make it soundinteresting, it's got to pull
(21:40):
the listener, which is what itdid because it made me write the
note here.
It's like, what is that?
What have they done to that?
But Soothe 2, man.
Um, I made the jump over toSoutheo probably about two weeks
ago.
Uh, I was like, you know what?
I'm gonna give it a go and I'mgonna see what happens.
And it is fantastic,ultimately.
I was prior to that, I wasusing uh Isotope Sculptor, which
(22:00):
is uh very much a water down,yeah.
It's okay, it's not bad.
Um, but Soof 2, the parametersand the control in it is just so
good.
Have you used somebody asked methis the other day?
Um I want to say smoothoperator, but that might be
because I was listening toSmooth Operator is another baby
audio.
Um I'm thinking of Sarday, butyeah, yeah.
Brian (22:20):
Um I can't get it to work.
I don't understand it.
It's it's one of those pluginsthat like I don't know if Cubase
hates or something.
Um, but like I was like, ohcool, it's like a like an
alternative to Soothe, but likeum I'll use it and then I'll
close the session, bring it backup, and then nothing goes
through, like no audio goesthrough that change until I get
(22:41):
rid of Smooth Operator.
So uh baby audio.
Uh let me try it again.
Yeah, let's let's worktogether, you know?
Marc (22:50):
Yeah, yeah.
I I can imagine it's it's oneof those I was asked, I've been
asked a couple times what mythoughts are with regards to
comparing the two, and I'venever used used that one.
But I was speaking of MichaelOakley um on the episode on the
podcast a few weeks ago, and umhe's uh he he mentions using it,
but couldn't tell you what doorhe was using though, to be
fair.
Couldn't tell you what door,but that's a pain in the ass
(23:11):
though, if you got it and itdoesn't work.
Baby audio, sort it out.
There we go.
Well, this is this is true.
Yeah, it is a fantasticplug-in.
The the controls in it are sogood.
So good.
Yeah, yeah.
Um let's move on to guitars andsynths.
I think this is a good one togo into now.
So, Jay, you're you're writingyour tune, you're producing and
(23:33):
whatnot.
Synth wave.
How do you fit guitars intoyour songwriting when paired
when sort of paired with synths?
Because I find with synth withguitars in particular, with
synths as well, you gottathey've they've gotta work
together.
And sometimes you can go a bitoverboard.
Not yourself, but it it'spossible to go overboard with
the two.
Jay (23:53):
Yeah.
Um for me, I I just I feel likewhen I'm writing, I just kind
of go for what sounds good to myear.
And I never go in with theintention that guitars are like
supposed to be like a big focalpoint of of the music I'm
writing.
Obviously, Sabbard's kind of anexception, Flames in the Sky
(24:13):
kind of an exception becausethey're more rock-leaning tunes,
but um, you know, they'rethey're meant to just kind of be
a lair rather than super standout.
Um but yeah, I mean for me,it's just what sounds good to my
ear, you know.
I don't really like boxingmyself in when it comes to you
know having sense, you know,conflicting with guitar or what
(24:37):
have you.
It's like if it sounds good tomy ear and we can get a good mix
on it, that's that's that'sgood enough for me.
Marc (24:44):
So that's fair, man.
When it when it comes to theguitars, how many tracks?
Guitar tracks.
So you got rhythm guitar?
How many guitar tracks are yourecording?
At any time during this song,I'm just doing left and right.
Nice, nice, nice.
And what uh I haven't got this,I didn't prep you with this one
here.
Go what uh AMP SIM are weusing?
(25:05):
Uh for this one I'm using theuh uh Neural DSP Gajira X.
Oh, good job.
I haven't tried the Gajira one.
I've got the Pritchucci and Ithink it was the I want to say
the Pliny one.
Did it?
Was it Pliny?
It might have been the Plinyone.
Brian (25:19):
I don't have either of those, but I'm super interested
in the Pliny because the Cleanssound incredible.
But I'm also a giant dreamtheater fan.
Marc (25:26):
So love his very good.
The uh the cleans, the cleansfor both are brilliant.
I I I lent towards getting thePiucci one purely on the basis
of the distorted the rhythmtones I thought were more
inclined to what I was after atthe time, but yeah, the Pliny
stuff.
I remember I first saw Plinywhen I went to watch Periphery
and they supported andadmittedly never heard I hadn't
(25:48):
heard of them before.
It was fantastic, man.
It was it was so good.
Uh and then my friend and Iwere stood there and we were
just like, Who what what who isthis band?
And they were just playing thisreally the the sounds coming
out from the guitar.
I was like, This is amazing.
And that obviously Peripherycame out, and I was just like,
This is this is insane.
Love Periphery.
Oh my god, one of my favorites,yeah, so so good.
(26:11):
And uh, I just reminded myselfto go back and give him a
listen, it's been a while.
Um, yeah, the vocals, the vote,like some of the notes that
that that dude can hear, and hedid it live as well.
There's what I cannot rememberthe track, but he hits a note on
the recording, and I'mthinking, can he replicate that
live?
Brian (26:29):
And it was just like Spencer is very disciplined when
it comes to his voice.
Like, I've I've got some vocalcourses from him, and he like
has tons of great secrets, anduh, but it's all about just like
you know, using your voicecorrectly.
Marc (26:42):
Yeah, 100%, man.
Warming up, which I fell foulof.
I never used to do even thoughI'm not a singer, uh, I do the
podcast, so I talk a lot, and uhit did have a detrimental
effect on my voice, and now I'vegot to do vocal exercises every
time I come to do these things,which is quite interesting.
Yeah, yeah, man.
I've I had to go see a vocaltherapist and everything.
So I've got all these exercisesto do to um to stop me losing
(27:03):
my voice.
Well, this is it.
Um with regards to the guitarsthen and and mixing, what's your
approach to so you've gotguitars synths uh uh uh playing
at the same time?
What's generally your I Isuppose it depends on the track,
right?
But what's your approachusually to sort of balancing
those?
Brian (27:21):
What's the and that?
Yeah, I mean, a lot of it ispriority.
Um, so anytime I open up a mix,I I have to think about well,
what is the focal point of thesong?
What is helping everythingelse, and what needs to be like
more felt than heard?
And based on Jay's vision, theguitars were definitely the the
latter, which was that they justneed to be felt, not heard,
(27:44):
really.
So just giving a little bit ofextra aggression, just filling
out a little bit more space.
Um, so if you were to removethe guitars, like you could feel
an absence, but it's also thethe guitars aren't like a focal
point in the mix.
You know, we have all thesesynthesizers, we've got, and we
can't let anything get in theway of the vocal because that is
our like priority number one.
(28:04):
That's gotta be like the thethe first the first and last
thing that the listener walksaway with from the song.
Um, and so I'm doing you knowplenty of uh carving on that.
Like I'm looking at my pro Qand I'm just like, you know,
dipping like crazy.
Um and uh let me see here.
(28:25):
Yeah, uh really, really basicstuff, but just trying to try to
get it out of the way ofeverything, especially since we
have so many synth layers.
Um now something that I learnedwhen I started really uh
working with uh guitars andsynths together is like so if
you've been mixing for anyamount of time, we we all know
(28:47):
to to high pass everything toget lots of room for the low
end.
You know, we gotta get thatkick to come through, that bass
has got to be uninhibited, thosegot to work together, and there
can't be anything else there tomuddy up that space, right?
You gotta do the same thingwith the top end, especially
with anything synth-heavy.
So we got all these airy uhsounds, all these pads, all
(29:08):
these you know, boop boops andplucky plucks and and the sizzle
from uh a guitar cab, you know,guitar cab.
Um, and uh it can just be amess up there if you're not
careful.
So, in addition to highpassing, low passing as well, to
make sure that it doesn'tcreate this giant mess, but
(29:28):
you're also making room for likeyour hi-hats, your cymbals, and
most importantly, the clarityand the air of the vocal.
Marc (29:38):
Wise words, and I think it's one that is often not
spoken of enough.
Because I think there is a lotof emphasis on tidying up,
cleaning up, however we want tophrase it, the low end.
But maybe we're not paying asmuch attention as we should to
the top end, as you mentionedthere, in particular with the
instruments that we're workingwith, like you say there with
synths and guitars.
(29:58):
So, audience listening.
It's something to be aware ofbecause again, not something I
listen to a lot of audiopodcasts and consume a lot of
content, and it's not somethingthat comes into much discussion.
Maybe I'm maybe not consumingthe right content, but something
that I don't hear probablyenough spoken of, I think.
I don't know what you guysthink.
Brian (30:18):
I couldn't speak to that, honestly.
Um, I think the biggest changefor me was when I updated my
monitors.
So I've been using Dynaudio uhBM5s, I think, for years and
years and years.
I learned how to mix on thoseand they just felt like home.
Um and then I started hearingfrom some of my artists, some of
(30:41):
the people that I work with,they're like, hey, I think we
got to pay more attention to thetop.
And I, you know, that there'ssomething going on there.
And these are like the BM5s arepretty dark.
So I ended up getting the uhthe Adam A7Xs, which have those
those ribbon tweeters.
They're like they're supposedto go all the way up to like
22k.
And I was like, my God, thesemixes are a mess.
(31:04):
And I'm I I had to emaileverybody and like, I'm so
sorry, this is horrible.
But and and so the point thatI'm trying to make there is, you
know, sometimes that's notsomething that we uh address in
our mixes because we don't havethe capability to listen to it.
You know, a lot of monitors,you know, things like the uh the
(31:26):
K rocks, you know, they'rethey're pretty scooped, they're
they're pretty low end heavy.
I haven't listened to them foryears, but like what's the top
end like?
Um, and that's like the the Ifeel like the the speaker system
that a lot of people will startout with.
Um not all of us have, youknow, $1,800 to to drop on these
atoms, but being able to hearthat, I think is really, really
(31:48):
important to be able to diagnoseand say, am I doing too much up
here?
Marc (31:54):
Yeah.
And also conducive to that ishaving a treated room and the
environment you're in as well,right?
With regards to that's becauseit is the analogy, isn't it?
If you're if you're like apainter is not going to use a
particular filter.
If you're putting a filter onsomething that you're trying to
create, this is a really pooranalogy that I'm coming up with
here.
But it's gonna have a it'sgonna there's gonna be
coloration.
There's gonna be coloration onwhatever it is you're creating
(32:16):
based on that environment.
So yeah, very, very important,very important stuff.
Um, but with regards to thesynths, just bringing it back to
that, Jay.
Um, you mentioned that you wereusing VSTs.
Maybe if you could name uh someof the your go-to VSTs that
you're using.
Jay (32:33):
Um, right now it's it's really simple.
Um, trying to build up myarsenal, but uh I'm using Serum
2 a lot and um Anna 2 as well.
Um, and then I got you knowjust some packs um within that.
Um one by uh vintage soundset.
Um I got a couple of his uhsynthwave um packs and he does a
great job.
So um yeah, always looking fornew stuff, but that's kind of
(32:57):
what you know what I've beenusing.
Marc (32:59):
Good choices, man.
I used the same.
I've got Anna 2, I've got Serum2, uh both fantastic.
Been using Anna 2 for years.
I got it with the slate digitalbundle many years ago, and then
I've recently started usingSerum 2.
Uh I moved over from Massive, Iwas using Massive a bit, but
stopped using that so much now.
But no, Serum 2's great, man.
(33:19):
Um, what what door are youusing out of interest?
Um, I use Logic Pro.
Jay (33:24):
Yeah, I'm out of Logic.
Yeah, used Alchemy.
Um, I I have, yeah.
I don't know if I've used it inany actual tracks.
Yeah.
Um, but I did kind of gothrough you know some of the
presets in there for way longerthan I'd like to admit.
Uh but um yeah, yeah, I'vechecked it out for sure.
There's some good stuff inthere.
Marc (33:44):
Yeah, it's it's interesting.
It is a great plugin for a freeplugin, it's super good.
Yeah, I I find myself using itmore for like if I want just
random sound effects, if there'sjust some A-ton or something
like that, some sounds in there.
I find it's really, reallyuseful for.
Uh Jensen, in the interest oftime, uh, because I don't want
to keep you too long, I thinkit'd be quite interesting to
move on to sort of the dynamicsand loudness side of things as
(34:05):
well.
So I've I'm I hope I hopefullyI'm right in saying this, Brian,
but you also mastered the trackas well.
Cool, I got that right.
Fantastic stuff.
So I the master sits aroundsort of minus, I got here on my
notes, 7.8 lufts around thatsort of area.
So, and it sounds fantastic,right?
So, how did you keep it atbecause that's relatively hot,
(34:27):
let's say.
How did you keep it, get it tothat sort of level, but like
maintain the dynamics and theclarity in the tune, in the
transcript song?
Brian (34:35):
Yeah, it's a great question.
And and you know, thank you forthe praise.
Um I can't master anything.
Full stop, just kidding.
Um, I push buttons until thingsare really hot.
Um, no, I can't master anythingwithout referencing other
material.
Like, I I think that should bea rule that anyone follows uh
(34:57):
forever, whether you're mixing,mastering, even production or
songwriting.
Um, but I have an amazingplugin uh called Metric A B.
Um and it is by adapter, andit's uh if you remember uh Magic
A B, it's the exact same.
It was just like, you know, itthey put a new finish on it.
(35:19):
Um but what I can do is I havea button over here.
I'll pull up a tune in the samevein.
Like I'll go to you know,Bandcamp and you know purchase a
track that were like, you know,hey, we we like this vibe, we
like the loudness here, and I'lljust you know back and forth A
B that against the mix.
And I'll start with the thelimiter, try and get the
(35:40):
choruses to kind of match involume, and then we'll we'll
start to look at things liketone, you know, globally.
What does the the EQ curve needto look like?
Then we get more granular, uh,you know, obviously some kind of
bus compressor to give it somesome movement and some uh energy
and punch.
Um but then when you start withyour master chain, this allows
(36:06):
you to hear problems or even seeproblems.
If you're looking like atanalyzers, uh, that you can go
like, okay, now I have achecklist of things to go down.
So starting with the master,getting it nice and loud, nice
and hot, I'm I'm like, oh myGod, this thing is doing like 10
dB gain reduction.
My my limiter is on the snareand the kick.
(36:28):
Okay, great.
We need to soft clip those, orwe need to find a way to get
those to be more controlled.
Um, and so you you constantlyuse metric A B so that you're
still in line with what you'redoing.
You're constantly watching youruh uh your limiter to make sure
that you're not just destroyingthe track, but then you use
(36:50):
that as like a diagnostic tool.
Um uh man, when the when thevocals come in, those are uh
really eating up the limiter.
Okay, maybe I should use amulti-band compressor before the
limiter so that when the vocalscome in, it's kind of gluing
everything together, pullingeverything down, but doing it so
(37:10):
minuscuely that it's not likepumping or anything.
Um, and then using like, youknow, track space and and things
like that is is really, reallyuseful.
Um, and I've just beenrambling.
I don't even know if I'veanswered the question.
Marc (37:21):
No, no, no, no.
It's perfect, right?
It it this is fantastic.
So, with regards to thatmastering process, are you have
you got the limiter at thebeginning?
Are you working backwards fromthe limiter?
Does that make sense?
Brian (37:31):
And then Yeah, yeah.
So I love top-down mixing.
Yeah.
Um, so when Jay and I firststarted on this track, um to go
back a couple conversations, Iwould send him like whips.
So he asked me, Hey, can can wedo extra guitars?
Can we do extra production?
Um, I was helping him beef uplike the drum samples and you
(37:53):
know, get some more uh body outof some of these, you know,
synth bases.
And so we'd be, you know,sending stuff back and forth,
uh, like, hey, how do we likethe vibe on this?
That's production.
I'm not looking for luffs, I'mnot looking for everything to
really come together.
I am mixing a little bit as Igo, uh, just to save myself some
hassle uh further down theline.
But once I mentally move fromproduction is finished, we're
(38:19):
now on to the mix, that's when Istart top down.
Uh because I'm mixing as I go,the flavor is already there.
We're just getting everythingto play nice together.
So, yes, I do the top-downapproach where I kind of start
at the uh stereo bus and kind ofwork backwards.
(38:41):
I'll start at the stereo bus,do as much as I can there, go to
my group stems.
So, like if all the drums needcompressed together, I'll put a
compressor on that.
If all the vocals need uh,like, oh my God, uh, and and
this happens to me all the time.
Brian, when you sing, there'sthis like this weird 2K thing
that happens everywhere.
Okay, great, let's just putthat on everything.
Um, and then I'll get reallymodular, really micro, and then
(39:05):
go to the track level if I needto.
Like I was talking about, thekick is like really transient
heavy.
Great, let's soften that withsome clipping.
And so working my waybackwards, but always keeping an
eye on the stereo out andmaking sure that's hitting the
references and the benchmarksthat we're setting, setting.
Yeah.
Marc (39:23):
Wise words, my friend.
Yeah.
Um the top-down approach is isa fantastic way of doing it.
I really like it.
And I think it's a good way ofnot over processing as well.
Exactly.
Brian (39:34):
Yeah, I think really minimal with it.
You can put out a ton of tunesif you start at the very end.
Marc (39:40):
Yeah, which it it does, it sounds counterintuitive, but it
really does work.
Because I think if you go theother way, I think particularly
if you're unsure of what it isyou're doing, then you can over
I find that's whereoverprocessing comes in, is
where individuals aren'tnecessarily sure if what they're
doing is correct, and then youjust do something because, well,
because and it might notnecessarily be conducive to the
(40:01):
tune.
But no, really interesting,interesting stuff.
Um Jay, throwing this over toyou.
When it came to the masteringphase of things, did you have
any um requirements?
Was there a conversation, orwas it just Brian?
You know what you're doing, Itrust you, do your thing.
Jay (40:18):
Um, there yeah, obviously was some of that, but um no,
Brian and I, we have a verygreat working relationship um
all through to the very end, youknow, of mastering.
Um I think Sebord had what,Brian, like maybe five.
We did like what five revisionson that one.
Brian (40:35):
Yeah, and they weren't crazy, like yeah, they weren't
crazy revisions, but I just youknow, I just little things, you
know, that I want to hear.
Jay (40:45):
Um, but but yeah, I think um yeah, we're start to finish,
him and I are communicating, youknow.
Um in yeah, it's great.
I love it.
I love working with that guy.
Marc (41:00):
Fantastic stuff, guys.
It's a it's a nice, nice way toend the almost end the
conversation.
So I've got one one otherquestion here for you, Jay.
Um, and this is what advicewould you give to an indie
artist working with a mixedengineer for the first time?
Jay (41:18):
Um I'd say probably try to be as prepared and thorough in
what you're looking to get outof your project.
You know, because when you havea clear vision of your
destination ahead, um, thathelps everybody, right?
It'll help you because you knowexactly where where you'd like
(41:40):
to go.
It'll help the the engineerthat you're working with
understand kind of like theartist that you are or aspiring
to be.
Um, and you know, there'sthere's always room to learn
along the ro the along the way,right?
So you don't have to have allthe answers, but if you kind of
have as clear of a vision aspossible to where you'd like to
go, then you're already 10 stepsahead.
(42:03):
But yeah, just being prepared.
Um, you know, trying to to ifwhen you're sending over demos
and stuff like that, just youknow, if they got guidelines,
like like Brian will send over abunch of guidelines of how he'd
like things, and that's great.
Um, so just read, follow therules, you know, make it easier
for everybody.
Marc (42:22):
So fantastic.
Brilliant.
Uh wise words, Jay.
Thank you very much.
Uh gents, it's been an absolutepleasure chatting with you
today with regards to this.
Uh no, it it has it has beenbrilliant.
And I think the biggest, one ofthe biggest takeaways to take
away from this is kind ofechoing what you just said
there, Jay, really, which isabout the vision and
communication.
I think if you start off andyou're both aligned with that in
(42:43):
particular, then you're settingthe foundation for something
good, you know.
I think, most definitely.
Um, before we wrap up, I alwaysdo this with anybody on the
show.
Uh, maybe we'll start withyourself, Brian.
Um, is there anything you'dlike to share with our audience?
And where can they find youonline?
If they want to think more.
Brian (42:59):
Sure.
So, as Mark mentioned at thebeginning of the podcast, I am
one half of the synthpop duoChroma Cloud.
And we've got a song coming outuh this Friday, the uh the
19th.
I don't know if the episode'sgonna be gonna air uh before
that or after that, but it'scalled Find Us.
Uh, and you can find us.
Terrible, terrible.
(43:21):
Go ahead and cut that.
Uh but you can find us on allthe things.
Uh Instagram, we're on Spotify,we got TikTok, we got presence
everywhere.
So uh if you like the kind ofstuff that Jay does, uh check us
out.
We actually also did acollaboration with Jay with our
song Flames in the Sky.
Um and so if you if you likewhat Jay does, come check us
(43:45):
out.
Thank you.
Marc (43:46):
Fantastic.
This episode is going to dropafter that day.
But what I will do is I alwaysdo, folks, audience listening, I
will put links to the songs inthe episode show notes.
And in Spotify now, you canactually put direct links to the
song in the podcast.
So you can click on thatwithout actually having to click
a hyper link, which is which isfantastic.
Thank you, Spotify.
Thank you very much.
(44:06):
Uh Drumwave uh I was gonna giveyou Cali then.
Jay, uh, where can the audiencefind you online?
Any news?
What have you got going on?
Jay (44:15):
Yeah, so you can find me on Instagram at J Cali Drums, um,
at drumwave, pretty much allacross the board on all socials.
Um, I got new music coming.
You know, I can't say too muchjust yet, but it's being worked
on uh with my boy Brian here.
Um yeah, and there's definitelymore to come on, you know, the
the the playing front as well.
(44:37):
Um, but I can't really say toomuch about that yet.
But there's a lot of cool stuffcoming for 2026.
Um, I'm very excited.
I'm excited to keep releasingmusic and to keep working with
Brian.
And yeah, it's gonna be great.
Marc (44:51):
Fantastic.
Again, links in the episodeshow notes.
Uh, audience listening, uh, onecall to action for you guys.
Uh, this is a challenge.
What I want you to do is takeone of your unfinished tracks
with with guitars and synths andvocals, and then take one tip
that you've learned from thispodcast today, and then
implement that in your project.
And then send me a message.
You can click the link in theepisode description, send me a
(45:12):
message with a link to thatparticular project or your
discovery, your findings, and uhI'll give you a shout out on
the podcast as well, and ofcourse, pass it to um to Jay and
Brian as well as feedback.
But again, gents, a big thankyou.
Thank you very much forspending the time with me today.
And uh, audience listening,until next time, stay inspired,
keep creating, and don't beafraid to experiment inside the
(45:34):
mix.
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