#223: How A New York Intern Became A Grammy-Winning Mastering Engineer with Dan Millice (Sound Discussion Podcast)

Episode Transcript
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Marc Matthews (00:24):
You're listening to the Inside the Mix podcast
with your host, Mark Matthews.
Welcome to Inside the Mix, yourgo-to podcast for music
creation and production.
Whether you're crafting yourfirst track or refining your
mixing skills, join me each weekfor expert interviews,
practical tutorials, andinsights to help you level up

(00:45):
your music and smash it in themusic industry.
Let's dive in.
Hello folks and welcome to afestive edition of Inside the
Mix.
A big welcome to any newlisteners and viewers, and of
course, a big welcome back tothe returning listeners and
viewers.
Now, this episode kicks off afestive series of podcast
episodes where I'm sharing withyou folks some of my favourite

(01:06):
podcasts.
And each of these podcasts hashad a representative appear on
Inside the Mix.
And we are kicking off theseries with the Sound Discussion
Podcast.
Now, Nate Kelms from the SoundDiscussion Podcast featured on
Inside the Mix episode 197.
Why I don't touch pluginsbefore doing this, The Art of

(01:26):
Static Mixing.
So go and check that episodeout once you've listened to this
one.
The Sound Discussion episodeI'm sharing with you is titled
From Intern to Grammy Winner.
Dan Millis shares his masteringjourney.
So in this episode, the guys atuh Sound Discussion Podcast
welcome Dan Millis.
He's a mastering engineer whohas made waves in the music
industry with his meticulousapproach and impressive

(01:47):
portfolio.
So he's he's based in New YorkCity and he's worked with
artists such as ASAP Rocky,Dolly Parton, Julian Large, and
he's earned a Grammy as well.
So he earned a Grammy in 2023.
So in this episode, Dandiscusses the importance of
serving the song and the uniquechallenges that come with
mastering different genres ofmusic.
And they also touch on insightsinto his workflow.

(02:08):
And Dan emphasizes thesignificance of personal
connections in the industry andhow networking has played a
vital, vital role in hissuccess.
So again, this is from internto Grammy winner Dan Millis
shares his mastering journey.
Now, before we dive into thisepisode, folks, I still want
your input on what you want tosee and hear from Inside the Mix

(02:30):
in 2026.
So please do click that link inthe episode description.
Give me some feedback on whatyou want to see and hear, maybe
what you want to see less of in2026, and also share your win as
well and get featured onepisode 227.
So without further ado, SoundDiscussion podcast from intern
to Grammy winner Dan Millisshares his mastering journey.

Ben Holmes (02:51):
Hi, and welcome to Sound Discussion.
Each episode we discuss a musictopic which we have all had
first hand experience with.
These will be anything fromgetting started, recording,
playing live, mixing, mastering,and everything in between.
Most episodes we will have aspecial guest to bring their
professional experience to thediscussion.

(03:12):
So, let's get started.

Nate Kelmes (03:17):
This month, our guest is an award-winning,
highly sought-after masteringengineer based in New York City,
known for his meticulousattention to detail and his
guiding principle, Serve theSong.
He earned a Grammy in 2023 forhis work on New Standards Volume
1 by Terry Lynn Carrington,which won Best Jazz Instrumental

(03:38):
Album.
In addition to this win, he hasbeen nominated 15 times and
counting.
His portfolio boasts work withASAP Rocky, Dolly Parton, Julian
Laj, The Blind Boys of Alabama,Bella Fleck, and so many more,
I can't even list them.
So go to his website to checkout the full discography.

(03:59):
Beyond Mastering, he offersone-on-one mix advice and
critiques, ensuring artistsachieve the best possible mix
before mastering.
His dedication to quality andcollaboration is at the heart of
everything he does, whichbrings us right back to where we
started.
Serve the song.
Ladies and gentlemen, pleasewelcome to Sound Discussion our

(04:22):
guest this month, Dan Millis.

Neil Merchant (04:26):
Woo-hoo!

Whoa, that was awesome.
Thank you.
No, thank you, man.
Thanks, man.
It it's been a long time thatI've wanted to have you on, and
the time is now.
So here we are.

Ben Holmes (04:40):
Yeah, really excited to talk about it.
It's gonna be good.
Yeah, this is gonna be reallygood.
And before we go any further, Imean the ASAP Rocky Dolly
Parton mashup is somethingthat's top of my list.
You should get them together,Dick.

Yeah.
You should totally send them anote.
It's like the degrees ofseparation, Kevin Bacon thing.

Is that six degrees or seven degrees or
whatever?

Dan Millice (05:03):
It's one.
Just one.
Just one degree.
I will connect them.

So, Dan, if you wouldn't mind, um, for people
who don't know who you are,which I'm sure a lot of people
don't know who you are, um mostmastering engineers fly under
the radar for for most musiclovers, even even you know,
studio professionals.
Um I'll start by saying thisbefore I have you launch into
who you are.
Uh when I was putting togetherthe intro that I read, I was

(05:35):
looking through all of yourrecords that you mastered, which
is stupid impressive.
Um just the amount of recordsyou mastered in 2023 alone.
I was scrolling for fivestraight minutes.
Thank you.
Like it was ridiculous.
Anyway, one of my absolute topten records, and that is a that
that is a a hard list to makeonto.

(05:56):
I did not know you mastered.
And when I saw that, I waslike, oh shit.
My buddy Dan mastered thatrecord?
Which one?
Julian Laj, Arclight.
Oh my gosh.
That record changed my life.
And if anyone is interested, ifif you're at all curious about
who Julian Laj is, just Googlehim.

(06:18):
But check out Arc Light, andspecifically, my favorite song
is the very last track on thatrecord.
Go and listen to it.
But oh man, dude, I'm so happy.
When I saw that you youmastered that, I was like, that
makes complete sense, and it isnow like my number one record.
So there you go.
Oh man.

Uh it's it's it's probably in my top ten as well
as a fan.
Um Julian is just ungodlytalented, hardworking, sweet,
like the nicest person you'llever meet.
That's so awesome.
Yeah, so it's and and and he'severywhere now, you know, and

(07:00):
totally well deserved.
Um huge, huge Julian Losh fanas well.

That's awesome.
Yeah.
Well, I'd love to hear abouthow how you get connected with
artists like Julian Losh.
But go ahead and and telleveryone a little bit about who
you are, how you got started,and uh just sort of bring us up
the speed.
For sure, yeah.

And thanks again for for having me on.
Um, I'm I'm like obsessed withthe Jake Fader episode.
I've listened to it multipletimes.
He's I'm biased because he'sthe uh Lee Turner as well.
Um Ian's episode was reallygood.
So thank you.
Yeah, I appreciate you guyshaving me.

(07:47):
Um but yeah, I uh I'm fromCharlotte, North Carolina
originally, and just at an at ayoung age, um, you know, just
was really into music and buyingCD or you know, my dad taking
me to buy a new band, new CD,you know, cutting open the

(08:12):
shrink wrap, getting littlepieces of tape stuck everywhere
because it's never like a cleancut, you know.
No.
And uh and rifling through theartwork and reading the notes
and not knowing any of thenames, except maybe like the
band members, and uh, you know,seeing like Sears Sound or

(08:39):
Electric Ladies Studios orOlympic or you know, anywhere,
you know, Abbey Road, all thesenames, and just kind of not not
you know not overanalyzing it oranything, but just kind of
taking note at a at an early ageand um trying my hand at being

(09:00):
in a band and um making our ownCD, you know, like that my first
experience doing that was inhigh school.
Um and getting to the pointwhere I was like making my own
recordings, recording for myfriends, okay, and um just kind

(09:21):
of like learning as you go anduh working with buddies on stuff
and just being like, oh man, Ilove this.
This is I'm obsessed, you know,and uh got to the point where
it was like, okay, you need togo to college, you know.
And so I looked at a fewcolleges, and there's this great

(09:47):
university in North Carolinacalled Appalachian State
University, and they have amusic industries program.
Sounded like, you know, thecoolest thing.
Um and it's and it's differentfrom like a trade school
program.
You know, it's it's an actualbachelor's degree, you know,
it's like a four-year degree.

(10:08):
You have to take English, youhave to take math, you know,
science, PE.
I had to take PE.
Um, it's real college, youknow, it's like a real college
football team.
I went to a real college, damnit.
Right.
Like I went, yeah, exactly.
And um, but they have a greatmusic school.
Wow.

(10:28):
It's called the Hayes School ofMusic.
And so I did I auditioned forthat.
I'm sure that I was kind ofrubbish, if if I'm being totally
honest about it.
Like I I sang uh I sang like anItalian opera uh to audition.
Really?

(10:49):
Yes.
I I didn't know you I didn'tknow you sang.
I don't uh that's the funnypart.
But yeah, no, I wasn't goodenough on guitar.
At least in my mind, maybe Icould have prepared a piece, but
I knew that there would be asight reading.
Anyways, this is probably waymore than you guys bargain for
here, but no, it's all right.

(11:10):
Um yeah, auditioned for themusic school, got in as a vocal
uh instrument.
You had to claim an instrument,so I was like, okay, well,
let's do voice.
I'll sing, I'll sing bass andI'll stand in the back.
And if that'll get me in therecording studio, then so be it.
Oh, you have to have a tuxedo?
All right, cool.

(11:30):
We'll go buy a tuxedo so I cansing in the in the performances
or whatever.
And uh, you know, so I justlike jumped through the hoops
that I had to do to get into therecording studio at App and uh
and yeah, just fully immersemyself in the program, like was

(11:52):
in every club possible, was waslike the president of a call,
you know.
I I was very involved, and Ijust like got I really got um
every penny's worth of myexperience there, and you know,
it they start you from thebeginning, and it's like music
theory and uh you know basics ofaudio and transducers and blah

(12:18):
blah blah.
You know, they start you fromthe beginning and then they you
know they build you up andeventually you can record a full
band and mix their mix theirrecord, a little bit of
mastering, not a ton.
Um but you you know, you youleave the program with a
bachelor's degree, which isessentially what my parents, I
think, wanted me to, you know,traditional college degree and

(12:44):
this, you know, foundation andum etiquette and stuff, you
know, like my professor ScottWynne, who is still still there,
and he he's um one of mygreatest influences.
Um he you know, he he gives youhe tells you what not to do,

(13:06):
you know, like um so you you leyou know he he he tells you what
what is what is good and alsowhat is not good to do, you
know, in a in a studio.
And so you you enter with likeuh a nice foundation and um the
last part of the program is youhave to get an internship.

(13:30):
It's not uh it's not uh youknow it's it's mandatory, it's
the final semester of yourfour-year is you know, eighth,
eighth semester, whatever it is.
I think it was my ninth, but umyou go get an internship, and

(13:50):
it can't be in town, it can't belike down the street at your
butt, you know, it's gotta be areal internship, and it's still
technically college, so youknow, I with the help of my
parents, I moved to New York.
I did not have an internshiplined up.
I just knew like I just knewthat like it once I got there I

(14:14):
would be able to maybe find one.
And like if I didn't, I'd comeback, you know, a failure.
But um give it the old collegetry.
Right?
So um, and I didn't know if Iwas gonna end up in New York
forever or not.
I just knew that that was whereI was gonna do my internship,

(14:37):
and so I got to New York and I Ilived at the 92nd Street Y.
Um, that was my first placethat I lived in New York, and
people New Yorkers think that'slike totally crazy.
But it's just a dorm that youcan live in for the summer when
you're on an internship.
I mean um it was awesome.
Uh so anyways, fast forward, alot of the studios I applied to

(15:02):
uh just had never heard ofAppalachian State University.
They were like, what's theplace called?
And um it, you know, it'ssmall.
It's like in the mountains ofNorth Carolina.

It's small, it's not you know, we're doing it
doesn't have a name behind it,it doesn't have any cred.

Yeah, unless you're like a hardcore college
football fan and know about thatone upset that they had over
the big school, you know, likeyou've never heard of
Appalachian State for the mostpart.
So, anyways, um I tried not totake that too personal
personally, but um I I appliedto a bunch of studios, I got I
could name them, and the theones the one that I got that I

(15:46):
was really, really interested inwas at MasterDisc.
And um they were a you knowtraditional mastering house and
one of one of probably the lastof their kind, um, with the
exception of the handful thatare still around today.

(16:08):
So um jumped at that.
I do I dove into that full on.
Um, and that you know, that wastraditional intern process,
like clean the bathrooms everyday and get the coffees, you
know, get the coffees.
I mean, take the checks to thebank because this was you know,

(16:30):
before you could just scan it,scan it in.
Right.

Ben Holmes (16:34):
Um all the stuff you're running through as a
mastering engineer.

Yeah, yeah, like operational interning.
You know, this was not you'renot in the studio, you're not,
you know, you are as far and andthat that aligned with what I
was told by my professor incollege was like, hey, you know,
go in there and be invisible.
Like yeah, be be there whenthey need you and be not there

(16:58):
when they don't need you, andum, don't say anything stupid or
anything at all, you know, whenin doubt, just be quiet, you
know.
Yeah, that's it.

You don't have an opinion, no one asked you for
one.

Yes, and it was great uh place to get, you know,
kind of a a start.
And um eventually once you, youknow, once you kind of get get
through that uh for a fewmonths.
I mean, there was no position.
That's another thing I tellpeople is like there was no

(17:32):
position uh open after that.
And that they they didn't proyou know they didn't advertise
one, you know, it was just aninternship for college credit.
There was no like, yeah, and ifyou get through this, like then
you go to this level, and thenwe train you and you get this,
you know.
It just that's so there wasthere was no job at the end of

(17:54):
it.
There was no job.
Yeah, there was no job.
But um, anyways, I just I toldthem like I really wanted to
stay.
Now I wasn't I wasn't theresuper long.
Um, but I did end up uh being aproduction assistant for one of
the mastering engineers, andthat you know involved setting

(18:16):
up session, tearing down thesession, doing the doing the
production work, assembling thealbums, taking ticks and pops
and little mouth sounds thataren't there for musical reasons
out.
Right.
Um fade outs, sometimes spacingbetween songs, if if uh but

(18:41):
that was like that, you know,that was it.
Like it wasn't a creative, youknow, sexy job or anything, but
it was totally totally and thatalso allowed for the other for
for the engineer to be in hisstudio mastering another out

(19:03):
album during that time, so it'sreally efficient.
I I really got to see um how itworks and how a a mastering
house operates, you know.
And um then they were like,okay, you can use the room in
off hours.
And you learn quickly, likeyou're not gonna, no one's gonna

(19:27):
give you work, you know,they're not gonna be like, oh,
and here's your first client.
Master this album.
It's seven songs.
The band is from Chicago, andbut like that's not that's not
how it works.
So I learned immediately youhave to go out and get your own
clients, and so I was like, oh,how do I get clients?

(19:50):
I have no credits, right?
You know, like uh still kind oflike blows my mind, honestly,
talking about it or thinkingabout it um right now.
But I would just go to Arlene'sgrocery, I would go to pianos,
I would go to Rockwood, I wouldgo to Mercury Lounge, I would,

(20:12):
you know, I would just go out,you know, to shows I didn't even
really want to go tonecessarily, just to do
networking and and say, like,hey, you know, or find bands
that I thought were cool.
I mean, I also I didn't knowanyone in New York.
I mean, I I maybe knew like acouple of classmates that were

(20:35):
also in New York at the sametime, but they were doing like
different stuff.
It wasn't related at all.
So um I didn't know anybody,you know, so I just like needed
to go out, meet people, I Iguess you could say.
And um, so yeah, I just likewent to shows, would find bands
that I thought were cool.
Say, you know, tell them, hey,I'm I'm an assistant engineer at

(20:59):
Master Disc.
I'd love to show you the place,you know.
I uh or I know you just I knowyou just put out your album,
you're not looking for masteringright now.
You know, that's that's thereality, is like, yeah, um, it
hard it's it it's sticky, youknow, it's sticky out there.

It's not just I could see that approach working
really well for a mix engineer,but for a mastering engineer,
that's a little bit moredifficult.

Maybe even maybe not even a mix engineer, maybe a
recording engineer.

A recording engineer, yeah, exactly.
Totally.

Yeah.
Um I didn't know.

Ben Holmes (21:32):
It's definitely the bit that people don't think
about is uh if you want to be ifyou want to do this as a job,
uh you are you are a salesmanand you are a mastering engineer
or a recording engineer.

Yeah, you're the sales team, you're the marketing
team, you are everything, yeah,you're the janitor, you're
everything.
You're the accountant, you'rebasically doing the scheduler,
you're a janitor.

You're basically doing door-to-door sales there
when you're going from band toband.

Absolutely.
Especially starting out, youknow.
And when I talk to like I I'mstill very close with
Appalachian State, so I talk totheir uh program pro like
annually.
That's great.
I tell that's one of the firstthings I tell them.
And it does I do see that lookin their eyes sometimes.

(22:21):
That's like fear of theunknown, you know.

Who's this guy?

They know it's gonna be hard just to be good at
this trade that you want tolearn.
Like that's hard, you know,being really good at recording
or mixing, it's not easy.
But also having like the socialskill to go out and hang.

(22:47):
You know, I I somebody calledit like the art of the hang or
something.
I don't know.

Yeah, um, no, I've heard that before too.

Ben Holmes (22:53):
Lee talked about it, didn't he?
About being on tour.
The people you want to be ontour with are the people who are
easy to hang with.
You can be a better guitaristor a better bass player, but
you'd prefer to be on tour withthe person who's an easy hang.

100%.
Yeah, you yeah, you don't doyourself any favors by um being
a jerk, you know.
Um, so yeah, I would just andand no one taught me that, no
one really showed me a roadmapnecessarily of how to do it, but

(23:29):
I was just like, what's thebest way to get bands in here?
I guess I need to go meet somebands, at least start there.
Actually, there there was thisone client, um, this was really
early, and I got I did get thisrecord actually, but I I was
like a fan of this band, and umI I saw on Twitter that they had

(23:53):
posted, just finish mixing thealbum, and I was like, Oh my
god, they have a new albumcoming out.
And I DM'd the label and wasjust like, Hey, my name's Dan.
I I'm in New York, I work atMaster Disc.
They did Zeppelin 4.
You know, I'm likename-dropping records that were
done in like the 80s.
You got to, you got to I'm likeBruce Springsteen Born to Run,

(24:16):
like selling yourself, you know,born in the USA.
Uh so and she's like, Youdidn't work on any of those
records, so why are you eventalking about that?
She was she was like reallyThat's kind of brutal.
Yeah, it was brutal, and I waslike, You're right, why am I
talking about that?
Um, but I didn't know better,you know.

(24:38):
I was green as hell, you know.
I was like the greenest guy inNew York City, just like
bright-eyed and trying to learneverything I could and meet
people and you know be myself inthe process.
And um, but yeah, you just kindof stumble through it.
And I, you know, I started tobring all my first records were

(24:59):
just friends from college.
It was just like bands from AppState that um were huge in
Boone, North Carolina, but like,you know, not household names
or anything like that,respectfully.
Um, because I love all those,all those people.
But um, but yeah, like that'show I started.

(25:20):
And um so when you're like theassistant engineer at a studio
like that, you you know, it's ayou know, it's like a position
that doesn't even exist.
You're just like after hours.
One of the first things theygave me was um, and this was
really valuable, and I I I willdo this in the future as well if

(25:41):
I ever have like an assistantor something.
It's just great practice.
Um they would give me like afew masters that were done in
the room that I was assistingin, and the pre-master, the mix,
you know, which you don't haveaccess to that unless you know
you run a mastering facility orsomething like, you know, maybe

(26:03):
a mixing facility.
But that's not just likesomething you can just do.
What you know, you need to havethe the pre-master um and the
reference, you know, and thefinal master.
And so what that allowed me todo was, and and they didn't give
me the EQ sheets either.
So it was like, here's thedesk, here's the final product,

(26:24):
here's the mix, try to match themaster that we gave them.
Wow.

Okay, so it's just the here's a before and after,
so you can kind of hear thedifference.
It's match beat.
The do matter.

Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, match or beat.
Although I wasn't really liketrying to overshoot the mark
either because this was you knowfull on loudness wars were full
on bloodbath going on duringthis period.
So so you didn't want to be theguy overshooting either, and
like the things imploding, andyou're the too loud guy.

(27:04):
That was like you didn't wantto be that guy.
So I I wasn't really looking tonecessarily beat it, uh at
least on the meters, butdefinitely was trying to get as
close as possible.
And that also helped me learnthe gear.
You know, it's like it it it itkills like five different birds
with the same stone.
It's like, you know, you'reyou're training your ears,

(27:27):
you're learning the gear, you'reyou know, you're doing the
thing from start to finish.
You're they had deadline, youknow, they're like by by Monday,
you know, these three.
And they're totally differentsongs, different genres.
And I don't know, it I was itwas intimidating at the time,
but like, what a cool, what acool little homework assignment.

(27:51):
Yeah, it sounds amazing.
Yeah, and hard to replicate.
But you know, nowadays it'slike well, I'm never gonna get
the I'm never gonna get the DuaLipa mix unmastered version, but
I can listen to the master abillion times on on Apple, you
know, and reference it best Ican.

(28:14):
But I'm not you know, I'm nevergonna master that exact song in
that key, mixed, you know,here's the pre-mix version 2.3,
you know, or whatever it is.
Uh it's hard to replicate that.
So, anyways, I just um that wasreally cool and that that got
me going and just mastering myfriends' records.

(28:37):
And um I've just been doingthat, you know, ever since.
I just uh I never neverstopped.
I never stopped.
Um I did I did mix some stuffduring that period in the early
days of New York because I was Iwas just like, what am I gonna
say no?
You know, yeah, sure.

(28:58):
Um but I did get to a point, Ithink it's worth mentioning
here, maybe for for someonelistening.
I did get to a point where Ifound it was crucially important
to pick one and just stick withit and be that be known for

(29:20):
that thing.
Yeah, and for me that wasmastering.
And for some other people, it'smixings, for some other people
it's production, for some otherpeople that's just playing
guitar solos on other people'ssongs.
Like whatever it is, I thinkthere's a huge benefit to um you
know, niching down and beingfocused on this one thing.

(29:44):
Yes, specialization.

Um, I know that's not I know that's been mentioned
probably on this podcastbefore, but no, well it I don't
I mean I don't know that it has,but it's really, really sage
advice and and one that's hardto to take, you know, even for
myself.
I like to do lots of differentthings, and it's it's
frustrating when I'm not reallygreat at any of them because I

(30:11):
want to be great at all of them,but that's really tough to do.
And the point is, maybe youknow, someone like me needs to
niche down.
I think nobody's not the onlyone.

Ben Holmes (30:21):
I think nobody's sort of come out and said it.
On the podcast, but when youlook at when you look at the
people we've had on the podcast,they are all known for a thing.
They are not all known foreverything.
You know, whether it's IanShepherd or Exactly, you know,
or Warren or you know, whoeverit is, Lee, you look at I mean
Lee talked about it all thetime, you know.

(31:00):
Lee is a Lee is a touringmusician at at sort of the main
thing of what he does, andthat's what he does.
He goes on, you know, yeah,live musician, yeah.
Live musician.
And uh yeah, I think almostwithout any of them saying, Oh,
I had to get to a point where Ifound the thing that I wanted to
do and I just did the thing,that's what they've all done.

(31:20):
They all just do the thing.

Now, with that being said though, somebody
like, and we're gonna talk aboutLee since he's friends with Dan
and myself, and you know, we'llwe'll make him embarrassed here
while we're chat chatting abouthim.
Uh he's also very good at atbeing uh uh a producer and a
recording engineer and a mixingengineer.
So he's dynamite at thosethings.
Um and in fact, when when whenwe can, we'll have Lee back on

(31:46):
to talk about those things umfrom his perspective.
But uh he you know maybe he'ssomebody who is is an exception
to the rule is that he's reallygreat at all of those things.

Maybe he's found multiple niches or exactly
focuses.
Like all of us have haverecorded, mixed, mastered, uh
done live shows, you know.
But like Ben, you specialize inplaying the drums and
mastering.
Yeah.
Nate, you produce and mix, andI do live music.

(32:18):
Once in a while I'll produce, Iused to produce.
Um but we all kind of found ourlittle like that's true.
I do this more often.
Um, I'm better at this than Iam at the end of the day.
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Ben Holmes (32:32):
Yeah.
I think it also comes down alittle bit to the sort of
personality you are, because Ithink um certainly for me, I saw
I mixed a few albums for as youknow, friends, people and you,
that kind of thing.
And I realized very quickly I Ididn't want to do that.
There's too many moving parts,there's too much, there's too

(32:54):
many almost decisions you haveto make on every oh my gosh, you
know, 16, 20 drum tracks.
By the time I've done five drumtracks, I'm like, okay, I'm I'm
absolutely done with drums now.
I don't want to hear anotherdrum even as a drummer.
And then you get, you know, oh,I've got nine lead guitar
tracks, and I'm like, okay, I'mI I haven't got the I learned
very quickly that for me, I justdon't have the patience to mix

(33:17):
a song.
It's just whereas if I've gotthe map the the two, you know,
the stereo mix of that thatsong, love it.
Right now, how can we enhancethat, make it better?
How can I give it a bit morespace, give it a bit more
clarity?
And I'm in, I don't want toever have to go back to mixing
64 tracks to get it.

It can be daunting, I'll tell you that much.
It can be daunting, and andDan, you're not missing
anything, like so uh oh I know,man.

I dude, I I was doing it uh probably, I mean, I
was probably still offeringmixing up until like 2012.
Oh really?
Yeah, dude.
And I was I would get smoked bylike real mixers, you know, and
it's like, oh shoot, if I'mgonna do this, I need to commit

(34:05):
to this and be like have thatdog in me, you know, and like
just and be passionate about it.
And I felt that aboutmastering.

Um that's awesome that you that you recognize that
because a lot of people don't,you know, they they just sort of
say, like, uh, well, you know,I'm not great at any of these
things, so I'll just I'll quit.
You know, I'll go do somethingelse.
Sure.

And you know, for me, for me, it's I I love the
process.
It it's um it's so enjoyablefor me, but also when the
clients are happy and it's likethat's a rap, folks.
I I don't know, like have youever if you've ever worked on
like a film or something andthey're you know, the last

(34:51):
scene, they shoot the lastscene, and then they all go to a
rap party and like have thishuge like celebration.
That's maybe kind of theequivalent.

Haven't done film, but I did theater in college.
So yeah, the last night, thelast the last show, yeah, the
last show on Sunday, Sundaynight or whatever it is.

Absolutely, huge, huge rager, and everyone is
super relieved.
I mean, that that's probablylike the closest equivalent, you
know, in the music production.
Uh I'm I'm sure like when youwrap a recording, you know, a
week of recording and stuff isis a good feeling, uh, you know.

(35:36):
Um mixing, I don't know thatthey have a finish line like
that with mixing, because it'slike no, I'm I might kick
something back or they mightrealize something is not right
and have to, you know, I kind ofyeah, I don't know that mixers
get get that, but they you know,maybe when they come to the

(35:56):
mastering session.

Um I just line is the famous line is mixes aren't
done, they're abandoned.
Right.
Right.

Um yeah, so when you finish an album, it's like,
and when I first started, I washanding a CD.
I was printing a a label, youknow, in the machine and
putting, you know, folding thething and putting it in the
jewel box and handing it, theywere walking out with it.
Um now it's way lessimpersonal, I guess.

(36:25):
And I try to make it personal,but it's it's like an email or a
text.

But to you're the last person to touch the the
songs.
So when you release that,you're right.
You're you were just with thatsong.
That's your basic.

The next step is duplication, it's in the wild.

But if you were like the producer or the the the
recording engineer at thebeginning, and now it's you
know, you know, totally out ofthe loop.
Yeah.

Like you're not in the CCs anymore.
You're like you, you you gotBCC'd somewhere along the line,
and it's like, yeah, you'relike, oh, the record's done.
Awesome.
But it's a year later.
You cut track seven, it's notnow it's tracks, you know, now
track seven is track six.
You know, like and it's wellover a year later.

(37:12):
Right, right.
I don't know.

Everyone's forgotten about it.

Yeah.

Right.
Uh so I I'm sure that a lot haschanged since those days at
MasterDisc when you werestarting to to stand up on your
own, right?
Mostly hardware, I'm surepretty much all hardware at at
MasterDisc.
Um, but now what you're you'rein the DAW completely, you're in

(37:36):
the box?

Yeah, I'm fully in the box right now.
Um for multiple reasons, youknow.
But my biggest reason is umcustomer focused.
You know, it's it's like I needto provide the best service I
can provide, and speed isimportant, and I just it takes

(38:03):
too long to jump on the Q trainor wait for the Q train, ride it
into Manhattan, you know, bookthe studio time, wait until the
owner is out of the room so Ican get in the room at five
o'clock, you know, or I'm gonnatell my clients, like, I can do

(38:25):
that uh once the sun goes down,I got you, you know, and just
make a big list of stuff to dowhen I get in.
And it's like, and I did that,you know, I did that for a long
time.
And um, but yeah, going tofully in the box, um I had

(38:47):
actually started to build avacation rig.
I was calling it the vacationrig.
Because I just, you know, Imoved to New York City in May of
2010.
Like, didn't go anywhere exceptfor home at Christmas, you
know.
That was it.
Like, I was chained to the roomI was working in, um, which was

(39:11):
eventually at the engine room.
I was only at the map, I wasonly at MasterDisc for like a
year.
But um, anyways, I I couldn't Icouldn't work fast enough.
And I wanted to be able to goon a vacation and not have this
FOMO that like a big name that Iwas trying to work with maybe

(39:34):
was gonna call like the day Iwas flying out of town, you
know, yes, like how it willhappen.
You know, it's it's it's likeleave the umbrella, you know,
bring an umbrella and it won'train, you know, like leave the
umbrella home, it's definitelygonna rain.
So uh I built like thisvacation rig in 2019, and I

(39:58):
started like getting that dialedin, and then I went on a
vacation, it was cool.
But then like six months later,you know what happened.
Yeah, and uh New York City waswas hit so hard uh by the
pandemic, and we were just likeyou know, we were bound to our

(40:19):
apartments.
This was like we're we'rewiping off our groceries with
Clorox wipes and stuff, youknow.
It was it was like scary, youknow.
We had to stay inside, and umfortunately I had built my
little vacation rig, you know,and it was like HD 600s, an

(40:39):
interface, uh an eye lock.
It was literally a lifesaver,man.

Like in the nick of time.

I couldn't go to the studio, like I legally
wasn't allowed in the, you know,the building was closed.
So um, and coincidentally thedemand went up for mastering.
I mean, Ben, I'm sure you had ayou know, I'm not unique in

(41:08):
that everyone got to stay homeand everyone was making
recordings in their bedroom islike, well, we still need to get
this thing mastered, right?
Yeah, yeah, right.
Yeah, that need didn'tdissipate for sure.

Ben Holmes (41:19):
Yeah, and I I think you've I mean one of the things
I noticed is that the the volumecoming out of artists went up
during the pandemic.
Oh my gosh.

You know, the amount of new music that was
happening in those first twoyears was incredible.

Ben Holmes (41:32):
It was it was hard to keep up.
It was amazing how quicklyartists figured out they can do
it at home if with a bit ofknowledge and maybe some help
from a someone they trust as anaudio engineer and a oh hold on,
I can record my guitar, sat inmy lounge, and I can I can put
some duvets up in a cupboard,and I've got a makeshift vocal

(41:53):
booth that will do, and you knowwhat?
They they they churned outmusic.

Is that about the time that um the AI or uh
lander and and ai um masteringprograms came out?

That might have started coming out a little
before then.
But I'm sure they picked up alot of traction during that time
for sure.

Definitely now because because ozone mastering
was available before then, andand I used that when I was first
starting out.
Um so that was available beforethe pair.

Ben Holmes (42:28):
We've had this conversation, Nate.
Stop calling it ozonemastering.
Ozone's algorithmic addition ofsome EQ and leveling.
Please stop calling itmastering.

Hold on, I need to call my mastering engineer.

Ben Holmes (42:41):
Hi, Ozone.
Exactly my point.
Just tell it what you want.
Explain exactly how that's notexactly what you were looking
for, and could it make somesmall tweaks for you?
Yeah, see how that goes as amastering engineer.

Absolutely.
But you know, two uh uh uh twoyears into this, Nate did not
know the difference.
It just sounded better andlouder.
So I was like, sweet, done.

Yeah, yeah, but ask it how it makes ask it how it
how the song makes it feel.
That's exactly the point.
Did it move did it move you?
Um no, but yeah, it you know,that was um that was when I kind

(43:24):
of I I mean before that I was ahybrid.
I was in the box and out of thebox.
You know, I I was um I wasusing the engine room mastering
console, and it was an analogchain, um, manly mastering uh
transfer desk with a bunch ofcool, you know, tube and solid

(43:46):
state stuff, and sharing thatroom with some of my old master
disc uh colleagues too, who whocame over.
Um Andy Vandt in particular,who I I cherish uh knowing, just
a great guy.
And um yeah, I was working thatway, you know, like partially

(44:07):
analog, partially in the box.
And then when when COVIDhappened, it was like, you know,
you're you're sort of forced tostay in, and I you know, I just
needed to stay busy, likemental health, you know, just um
trying to navigate thesituation and yeah, keeping some

(44:30):
normality, stay alive.
Like I didn't, you know, thiswas before we knew what we know
now, you know.
It was like horrific.

Ben Holmes (44:36):
Yeah.

Um, we were banging on pots and pans at 7 p.m.
every day.

Like to I remember seeing that on the news.

Yeah.
To like thank the um healthcarepeople.
I mean, we we had the samething here.

Ben Holmes (44:49):
We we just went outside and clapped for that's
yeah, man.

For our it's like almost hard to even talk about.
Um crazy, yeah.
But you know, that's that'swhat happened, and you know, for
what you know, I just I'mthankful that I was in a
position that I was in, and Ihad already done a decade plus

(45:16):
work worth of going to Arleanson a Sunday night at 11 p.m.
when it's raining, and I reallydidn't want to go, you know, or
going to Rockwood and seeinglike six bands, and only one of
them really like interested me,maybe to work with, or you know,
just that legwork of networkingand meeting people and meeting

(45:42):
other mix engineers, meetingother music producers, meeting
just people doing stuff in therecord business, um, that I was
able to continue paying my billsand stuff, and um getting, you
know, simultaneously really,really good at mastering in the

(46:07):
box and like um refining myprocess there and just um yeah,
so and also now I can providesort of a better service because
if somebody has a 911, hey, wejust decided to cut track seven
and track six needs a longerfade, like no problem.

(46:30):
Oh, and we're uploading ittoday.
No problem, save what I'mworking on, open that session,
yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Delete that song, relabel thething, you know, like boom,
okay, it's uploading now.
And people are like, what?
It's uploading now.
Like, thank you so much.
You know, that that means a lotto people when you're providing
a service for people, they youknow, you you wanna blow them

(46:54):
away, you know.
That's how you get repeatclients, definitely.

Ben Holmes (47:00):
They trust you, right?

Yeah, they trust you, they know you're gonna be
there for them, you know.

And um but not too available, right?
You don't always wanna youdon't wanna be waking up at two
in the morning and jump into asession unless it pays
sufficiently well.
I mean, for sure.
I don't know.

For sure.
Everything like within uhwithin reason content limits,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean I set boundaries, youknow.
I I have boundaries that I tryto set, but um, you know, um for
the most part, I'm no I'msorry.

Oh, it's okay.
I was uh you say that um youyou have like a no template
approach.
Um in this day and age whereyou're where you're trying to be
quick and everything like that.
When you say no template, likedo you ever use a template with
like, okay, so if you'remastering an entire album,

(47:59):
right?
And you have multiple songsthat you kind of want to flow
together, do you ever make atemplate uh for that out like
for that particular album?
So when you get to the nextsong to master it, do you or is
the no template likespecifically for a can you
explain the project as a whole?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm happy.
Perfect sense, Neil.

Yeah, no, I totally makes sense.
And um basically what I mean bythat is I start from scratch,
you know.
Like I if it's a let's just sayit's a 10-song album, um I I do
not know what limiter I'm goingto use.
I do not know what EQs I'mgoing to use.

(48:43):
Um am I going to use a DS or amI not going to use a DS or
whatever?
I don't know.
I start with nothing.
You know?
I just import all the songs andlisten to them.
Like I I don't I don't run itthrough this thing every time,
or you know, I don't have anytemplate or you know uh presets

(49:07):
or anything like that.
I just like a blank canvas.
Exactly.

You're an artist with a blank canvas and you're
just ready to paint.

Making this unique thing, you know.

You don't even know what paints you're gonna
use.

You're just one of one.
Yeah.
Yeah, nice.
Exactly.
And I just start from scratch,and you know what I usually do,
actually I'm I'm infinitelycurious about this, what other
mastering engineers do, but Iusually just pick what I think
is the best sounding song.
Um, I mean, I I Ben, do you II'm actually if we could just

(49:41):
tangent like what how do youstart an album?
Like, do you pick the bestsounding song or I'm sorry?
Um I like that.

Ben Holmes (49:48):
Yeah, so it's a it's a really interesting thing for
me because uh I have we'vetouched on this before and it
come I'll it answers yourquestion, I think.
So I used to say to clients, doyou have sort of reference
tracks that are things you'rehearing?
That sort of and sure.
And I've stopped doing itbecause uh I stopped doing it
purely because the bit I like isI get these tracks in, I've

(50:11):
chucked them all into my DAW,whatever, or pull them all up,
and I just listen to them all,and I get an idea of what I
think they were aiming for, notthem saying, Oh yeah, I wanted
to sound like the red hot chilipeppers.
And then you listen to it andyou go, it doesn't sound
anything like the red hot chilipeppers.
So you just get let down everytime.
It's just like what was thepoint of our thing?

(50:31):
But what you do is I pull themall up, and I do, I I tend
usually they'll send me the playplay order of the order they
want the album in.
Um I then usually listen toeach song and find the one I
like most, and that's the one Istart with.
And once I get that to soundhow I want, then I work on the

(50:51):
rest of the album using that asmy starting point.
But it's interesting you sayyou start with a blank canvas
because I'm exactly theopposite.
And I know that sounds soundsreally lazy, but I've I've got
probably so I've got on mymaster chain, I've got uh the
tape emulation that I always usebecause I just think it sounds

(51:14):
nice.
I've got uh I've got twocompressors that I have set up
so that what I do is I know thatwhen my signal chain comes
through to that point, if it'sat the right level, they'll be
doing roughly this.
So I can immediately get agauge on how my gain staging's
looking before we get into okay,and then I do have a couple of

(51:36):
different limiters I usedepending on because so
controversially, I don't likethe Fab Filters L Pro Pro L2 Pro
L2, I don't like it.
Don't like what it does to thetop end, I don't know.
Really?
I I look I love all theirstuff.
Their EQ is unbelievably good,but I I don't like the Pro L2.

(51:57):
I for some reason controversy.
It's not good, man.
Controversy indeed.
It does something to the topend.
I don't know what it does tothe top end, but whenever I've
picked it up and I've put it onthere and I've gone, I don't
like it.

Well what's what's your favorite limiter, Ben?

Ben Holmes (52:11):
Uh I what do you pick it up?

I need to go get some popcorn or something.

Ben Holmes (52:15):
Um so so I flip-flop.
I do like the ozone limiter.
I do think they make a reallygood limiter.
Um and I do like the Tokyo DawnT E L, what is it?
Tokyo T D L.

Tokyo Dawn Labs.
Yeah.
I don't know what their limiteris called yet.

Ben Holmes (52:35):
I think it's really good.
I they're they're the two Ifind myself going for.

What about you, Dan?
What what's your limiter orlimiters of choice?

I love the Pro L2, but I'm not trying to juxtapose
you or anything like that.
No, no, no.

Ben Holmes (52:50):
I mean, I know I'm in a minority of everyone I talk
to.

Yeah, no, no, it's it's um it's just versatile, you
know, it's um being able tochange the attack and release
time and the look ahead and thedifferent engines.
Uh I would say that I leanmostly towards the transparent

(53:13):
engine.
Isn't that what it's called?
Transparent engine.
Yeah, it is, yeah, yeah.
Um but actually I'll tell you afunny thing uh uh about the Pro
L2 is um I get sometimes likemixers will include their like a
screen.
I'm I'm sure they do this withyou too, Ben.
But like uh you'll get you knowthe mix and the loud pass, or

(53:37):
whatever that might be.
That that that could be, youknow, a bunch of stuff that
could be just a limiter orwhatever.
But um they'll send you likethe screenshot and they're it
and it if I get a Pro L2, if themixer used the Pro L2, they
always have it on the defaultsetting, like the the setting
that it opens on.
That's all you need, isn't it?

(53:59):
You just don't you just installthe plugin and hit go.
Oh my god.

That's what I do.

That's that is chaos.
Yeah.
The um that setting is not notwhere it's at.
No.
Um maybe maybe it's good ifyou're just like in a hurry and
need to just throw something onquick, but that's just not a
situation I'm ever in myself.
Um but I I I like being able todial in that limiter.

(54:28):
I I like the ozone limiters.
The eight in particular.
That's maybe the the ozonemaximizer that I would use the
most is the eight.
I haven't psychotically done abunch of testing or anything,
but I I do like, you know,that's kind of the start of my

(54:50):
process, is maybe like you said,the reverse um of maybe the way
you start is like I'll start byjust shooting out limiters and
seeing what limiter kind ofvibes with the song that I
chose.
Also, I was gonna back up.
Sometimes I don't have a choicein what song I start with.

(55:14):
That that was actually the morere realistic um answer.
But if I'm given the option, ifit's I'm just starting from
scratch and the band is justtrust me and what you know, just
do the album, I'll probablypick maybe the best song that I
think, you know, because I'mgonna listen to it like a
billion times, right?

(55:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, am I gonna pick liketrack nine, the the 40 BPM piano
ballad?
Like, I'm not starting withthat.
No, no.
Um, and yeah, I'll just likekind of vibe with it, and yeah,
I'll start, I'll shoot outlimiters, see which limit, maybe
narrow it down to a couple.
You know, it's not uncommon tohave the the Pro L2 and and and

(56:00):
maybe the Isotope right next toeach other, and one's muted and
one's not, and then I mute theother one and unmute the other,
you know.
Yeah, sure, absolutely.
I've been down that road, yeah.

Ben Holmes (56:10):
That I especially I think um, I mean, one of the
crazy things, and I don't know,I can't even back this up with
any fact, is my my gut instinctis that I do find myself
leaning.
I found the the L2 is in like agood rock situation, seems to
fit better.
The ozone, the isotope one,just seems a bit too smooth at

(56:33):
times.
Like it's so I did I do, youknow, you get yourself in almost
like into a mindset of, oh, Ijust use this limiter, and then
occasionally I'll just think,well, I'll just try a different
one.
And you go, whoa, but did thatcome totally different, right?
Totally different, yeah.

Yeah, that's my I am fully aligned with you on
that.
I um I do know that certaingenres of music maybe don't
sound as good going through oneor the other.
Yeah.
You know, I'm I'm I'm trying tobe careful here because I don't
want to I don't want to likeget edited down to like an

(57:10):
eight-second clip of me justlike saying something bad about
something.
I wouldn't do that to you, Dan.
Um but you know what I mean?
Like um certain genres justsound better, and that's that's
the other thing I like about thefab filters, the different
engines, you know.
I really I love all around.
I don't know if anybody elselistening loves that one too,

(57:35):
but all around is like probablymy favorite, but transparent if
I'm not trying to uh, you know,if I want to be like as
invisible as possible.
Yeah, and I can dial it in, youknow, each, you know, the
tempo, the uh what kind ofproduction pr production uh, you

(57:58):
know, what what are the drumslike in this?
Or is there sustaining guitars?
Where are the where's thevocals?
You know, there's all sorts ofvariables that go into it, and I
don't know that I could guess.
You know, sometimes I've I'vegone into stuff thinking I was
gonna use this and this, andthat wasn't the thing, and and I

(58:19):
just um so that that was kindof like the concept of not using
templates, not using uh achain.
I in those rooms I I've workedin where I have an analog chain,
uh for the most part they havethe chain set, and you can you
know get on the Z Sys router andchange the order and stuff, and

(58:43):
and and I did that, and andthat was cool.
And that was like such a greatway to learn mastering and you
know do my first decade, youknow.
That that was like the Iwouldn't trade that for
anything.
Um but now I'm like in mysecond decade, and it's more

(59:04):
flexibility with the box, yeah.

Ben Holmes (59:07):
And all the rules of gold.

Yeah, and I don't feel as um imposter syndrome-y
as I used to, you know.
I still, although I do sufferfrom it like anyone does.
Everybody does, yes,absolutely.
You just like wake up some daysand you're just like feeling
low.
It happens.

I had that earlier this week, man.
Yeah, it's totally like anormal thing.

It's really bad.
But it doesn't affect mydecisions on what I do when I'm
mastering songs for people.
So, and I really yeah, I likethe flexibility.
And the other thing is, youknow, some songs, and this goes
into that, you know, serve thesong concept, which I didn't

(59:54):
make that up.
I've heard infinite masteringengineers mix engineers.
I mean, serve the song, that isnot I didn't come up with that,
you know.
It's just but it's goodworking.
What a great work.
Yeah, what a great uhmethodology, you know.
It's a thousand percent.
Yeah.
Um if you get a mix that is ahundred percent, like you can't

(01:00:19):
anything you do to this mix isjust gonna take away some vibe
or some magic.
Like you don't know how it wasdone.
It doesn't honestly matter, butyou get a mix and it's like
this is a hundred percent theperfect mix.
Don't do anything to it.
Yeah, you know, part of part ofthe job is no.

(01:00:41):
When not to do stuff, you know.

Nate Kelmes (01:00:45):
So um now that is gotten a mix to master where all
you did was just bring thevolume up a little bit.

Dan Millice (01:00:53):
Right.
Maybe it's that.
Maybe it's just do a fade outat the end, you know, and bounce
it.
Like and clean up the clean upthe three seconds of dead space
at the front.
Like that is serving the song.
Yeah.
You know?
Um if if it's 97% there, yourjob is to take it that final

(01:01:16):
three percent, that is servingthe song.
Maybe that's just adding alittle air and adding a half a
db of limiting to it orsomething.
Um oh, I was gonna say theOxford limiter.
I kind of I kind of vibe withthat too.
That's stuff.
Yeah, yeah.
I love I love Oxford stuff.

(01:01:37):
Um, anyways, that's serving thesong, you know.
Um a lot of indie bedroom stuffcould be 80% there, could be
65% there.
I don't know.
We don't have to like get itmath involved in in it or
anything, but like Ben lovesmath.

(01:01:59):
You know, you know what I'msaying?
Like you you can hear it, andthat's part of being a mastering
engineer is like assessingmixes, knowing kind of kind of
what the finish line shouldsound like if we're taking into
consideration, you know,everything, the genre, and like,

(01:02:20):
you know, kind of where otherstuff in that world is uh is
coming out, um, those types ofconsiderations, and then being
able to advise your clients onhow to maybe make their mix a
little better if they're open tothat.

Um well in an ideal world, they'll approach you
first and say, Hey, you know, wewant to have you master this,
but is it ready?
But if you get a project tomaster and you're like, this is
60% there at best, do you kickit back to them and say, It's
not ready, here are the thingsyou need to address.
They didn't ask you for that.

(01:02:58):
So, what do you do in thatsituation?

It's try it's so tricky.
I um I'm still kind of figuringout the right verbiage for
this, but to answer yourquestion, I have started kicking
stuff back.
Um part of the reason islogistical, like I'm super busy

(01:03:20):
now.
And like I don't first of all,you have to wait a little bit to
get your song mastered, right?
And like I didn't used to havea wait, you know.
Like back when I was starting,it was like, I could do it
today.
I got you, you know, like I Icould do this in the morning for
you, you know.
Like, I I don't have thatluxury anymore, so I have to be

(01:03:43):
kind of intentional aboutscheduling and and taking other
clients' deadlines intoconsideration, blah blah blah.
Anyways, that's more of like anoffice logistics kind of
problem that everyone has.
Uh but basically um I willassess the mix to kind of get an
idea of where they're at.

(01:04:04):
And um I I'm not giving themcreative feedback.
I'm not like, oh, you know,like interesting, F sharp, like
right, like yeah, you know, II'm not giving technical
technical points on the I'm justI'm for the most part you're
hearing.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm for the most part giving itlike the quick, okay, this is

(01:04:28):
gonna need some work.
This is this is doable.
This is doable, but I betternot book 80 other things that
same day because I'm gonna needto focus on this one, you know?
Um, or oh, this is likeamazing.
Let me schedule this fortomorrow because this is not
gonna take as long and whatever.
Um but it's those, it's thoseother projects where you're

(01:04:54):
like, damn, like the song couldbe awesome, but it's just you
know, it it maybe sounds like itwas done on like their onboard
mic on their laptop orsomething.
You know, it's just like it'sjust not up for it, it's not
ready.

Ben Holmes (01:05:10):
And I think uh I think one of the challenges as
well, and it probably dependswhere you are in the musical
hierarchy, is you probably get alot of mixes from very good
sources.
You know, these are top artistswho are sending you mixes from
top mix engineers.
Um, one of the things thatcertainly I've found is very

(01:05:32):
difficult is I'll get sent a mixand I might, if I know them
well, I'll say I don't thinkthat's quite ready for mastering
because the balance is way out,or the you know, you need to do
XYZ, or there's a whine in thevocals that you need to take
care of.
And they'll say, Oh, well,we've paid the mix engineer and
we're not really we don't reallytalk to him anymore.
We can't go back.
We can't go back.
Yeah, and that is a real yeah,then like, okay, well, yeah,

(01:05:55):
there's that to work with whatI've got, right?
You know, this is that we'llmake it work.

That totally happens.
Um, you know, I I reallyrespect the um I think Ian said
this, and I know that some of umsome of my other mastering
colleagues work uh on thementality of they intended to
send this exactly the way theysent it.

(01:06:22):
They worked so hard on it, andand uh, you know, who am I to to
to say that they did it?
Um and and that's how they sentit, and that's what they want
mastered, and the end.
Like I respect that.
And I I also am not trying toquote um your your previous
guest either.
I just um I've heard othermastering engineers say stuff

(01:06:45):
like that, and that is totallyvalid, and I I respect that.
I think my methodology is alittle bit of a hybrid um
philosophy of like, yeah, I I dothat as well.
I I assume that they intendedthe song to sound this way, and

(01:07:06):
I intend to not disrupt it, youknow, it just make it a little
better if that's all it needs.
I'll just try to enhance it alittle bit, you know.
Um but I also I just it it'sit's not even like a moral
thing, it's just like I don't Ifeel bad booking someone for

(01:07:32):
mastering when I know thatthey're not ready for mastering.
So if I hear something, I QCit, I just do a 30-second QC if
that if you know maybe I listento the whole song, but I'm just
like, oh man, um, you know,maybe they're mixing it
themselves.
I'll I'll I'll I'll request aphone call and I'll just say,

(01:07:54):
hey, like, um where you know,what are you what's your vision
for this?
It's like I'm not gaslighting,you know, I'm not gonna um they
might have a unique vision.
Who, you know, and I just needto be kind of clued into that.
That's fair.
I'm into it.
Um, but you know, if it's likeI can't hear the vocals and it's

(01:08:17):
just like blown out and messedup, um, I need to find out if
that was in fact intentional.
I'm not gonna like charge them150 bucks, master their song,
send it back.
That'd be another 150 bucks,you know.
I'm not that guy.

Neil Merchant (01:08:33):
So like like did you mean to bury the vocal?
Is that like a stylistic thing?
Exactly.
I mean, like, because that is athing.
Like back in the 90s, um, thevocal was more buried in a lot
of rock music.

Yeah, totally.
And um, I have thoseconversations and I do it on the
phone usually.
Um, I'm pretty adamant aboutjumping on the phone.
I know there's like agenerational thing, you know,
the like some people don't liketalking on phone.
They're like, just text me.
Why is this guy calling me?

(01:09:08):
God forbid you leave somebody avoicemail.
Oh my god.
Don't leave a voicemail.

How do I access that again?

Yeah.
Um, but I just I think it'smore efficient on the phone.
You know, you can hear my my myvoice.
You can tell, like I genuinelycare about your song.
Yeah, and if something is off,I think we're just it's more
productive to just flag flag it.
Um if if that's what theyintended, cool.

(01:09:37):
All right, next Tuesday at 10a.m.
Yeah, mastering this song foryou.
Uh and if it's like, oh no,like this is my first time doing
this, and it's you start tounpeel some some stuff that they
didn't share in the email, andthey're like, no, like you know,
I I went to school for this,and I this is my first

(01:09:57):
self-produced EP or something.
It's like, oh, you you came tothe right place.
Like, thank you, thank you forconsidering me.
Let's do it.
And we'll talk we'll scheduletime and talk about the mixes
and see if we can improve them.
If it's if it's the kind ofclient where they're they don't

(01:10:17):
um they're not mixingthemselves, or maybe they're
like, Yeah, my my cousin went tothis school and does this and
it's not that good, or whatever.
I'll just be like, hey, youknow, would you be open to uh a
call with my buddy Jim Stewart?
You know, like can I get you onthe phone with Jim Stewart

(01:10:39):
tomorrow?
Like, and that, you know, likeI will connect someone with a
mixer, yeah.
Um or whatever, you know, likethat that's kind of my thing.
I I don't want to just book itand master it and bill it and
you know, just keep goingaround.
Because I'll lose I'll losesteam on the thing, and I I'm
really fresh on it.

(01:10:59):
Like I commit to that song, andI'm you know, I'm trying out
different limiters and EQs, andI just like if I gotta redo it
from scratch again, you knowwhat I'm saying?
I'm I'm starting from scratchagain because but I knew the mix
was gonna get remixed, it'sjust I don't have time, and
yeah, it's just better, and Ithink people truly appreciate

(01:11:22):
that.
Yeah, that extra time and thatextra communication.
Um, I want my clients to beable to, you know, they have my
number.
Like you they can text medirectly, they don't have to
talk to the front desk personand take a message and blah blah
blah.
I've I've been in that um sortof situation, and that totally

(01:11:46):
is cool.
Very good.
But my thing is yeah, my thingis personal.
And um that's awesome.
Yeah, that's what I'm doing,and you know, that's that's the
way to go.

I mean, in in a world of of AI and and talking
with people, you know, not inthe room, you know, even if
they're even if you're notmeeting with these people,
giving them that personal sortof attention, that personal
touch to, you know, what is adisconnected process nowadays,
really, you know, making it feellike you're in the room with

(01:12:20):
them, hearing them, reallyhearing them.
Well, that also makes them feellike right.
And let's say, you know, andand let's uh let's apply that
concept to just arun-of-the-mill mastering
engineer, right?
They're they're just trying toexcel at what they do.
I mean, they're not trying towin awards, they're just trying

(01:12:41):
to, you know, pay the bills andand and pursue their art.
Even if you don't turn in themost pristine top-notch, you
know, master, giving somebodythat personal attention, going
the extra mile in your service,is going to be worth more than,

(01:13:02):
you know, the best master in theworld, right?

Yeah.
I mean it's all about uh it'sall about people working with
people, isn't it?
That's the thing.

Yeah, it's providing it's providing a
service.
Yeah.
I mean, you're you're you're inthe art of cust you're in the
art of customer service, Dan.
You you just happen to be atop-notch mastering engineer at
the same time.
Thank you, brother.

Um I I literally it all comes back to uh the artist
and or you know the client, thecustomer, you know, if you if
you want to look at it uh from abusiness perspective, it is uh
it is client focused.
Yeah.

(01:13:45):
I'm not focused on competitors,quote unquote.
Um, I'm not focused on whatanyone else is doing.
Uh the only person that I'mfocused on is the artist that
I'm working with, or theproducer, or the mixer, whoever
it is that brought me this song,that is um that's who I'm

(01:14:11):
serving.

Yeah.

You know, that that is the whole the whole thing in
in a nutshell.
Serve the song, you know.
It doesn't matter whose song itis, it doesn't matter what
continent they're from or whatgenre of music it is.
And that that is another thingthat I I'm really lucky is and I
and I do I think have you knowgoing to App State and being you

(01:14:36):
know getting a music degree andbeing classically trained, you
know, I love all genres ofmusic.
I'm working with a client inIndia, I'm working with a client
in Buenos Aires, you know, I'mI'm working with a client in
Cleveland, Ohio, Nashville,Tennessee, Istanbul, Turkey.

Amazing.

All the songs sound completely different.
Like, couldn't be moredifferent.
And um, I love that.
And I do know, and it's justlike of course it happens to
people if you do if you do justa bunch of big rock album, or
let let's go even more nichethan that, like heavy metal.

(01:15:20):
I don't get a ton of heavymetal stuff.
The heavy metal world is likekind of small.

I'm sure it's pretty small, you know.

Yeah, and like if you don't do heavy metal every
day, you don't do heavy metal,you know what I'm saying?
Yeah, like those guys that it'slike it's a very uh closed, you
know, close knit group of uhprofessionals.
It from what I can tell.
I mean, I I'm no I you're Ithink you're absolutely right.

(01:15:50):
I'm not saying they're notwelcoming of other people, I'm
just saying like who gets hiredto mix all of those records,
it's like the same ten people.

And they use the same mastering engineers and the
oh yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Oh, uh you go to the Grammys and you'll like
you'll see they'll um you knowthey flash it up on the screen
and they'll show you the thecredits on some of these uh
awards that are coming up, andit'll be like you'll just read
the same name and and you'relike, oh my god, like the guy
mixed four of the five nomineesin this category.

(01:16:28):
Like he's probably winning aGrammy.

This you know, like it's it's like pop and serb and
gunea, right?
It's like he mixed every singlesong that you love uh every
year.
Uh real quick, uh, what's itlike being at the Grammys, man?
What what's that like?

Yeah.

The Grammys, um, it's cool.

It's uh it's definitely like exhilarating,
definitely kind of intimidatingfor me.
You know, I'm I'm like, shouldI bring binoculars?
Because I'm sitting in the backrow, like um winning my Grammy.
It's humbling, yeah.
I mean it no, I mean it's uhout of you know, out of the 15

(01:17:12):
things that I'm credited workingon that have been nominated,
one has won.
You know, and that is likeincredible to me.

I mean that is one more than anything that I've
done.

I think the fact you've just gone only one has
won.
I mean, the number of peopleyou can agree.
Yeah, that's amazing.
Totally.

No, I totally um but there's also like you know,
14 times that they say anotherartist's name, and you're like,
yeah, you're not you're thatclose.

Yeah, I think 15 time nominated is also something
that you should just have amassive billboard written about.

I mean, yeah, but the fact that you're even
nominated means.

I'd have a t-shirt printed up that says I would
wear it every day.

Also, I just want to say this because I'm uh I'm
probably overthinking it, butyou know, uh for what it's
worth, I myself I'm not actuallybeen nominated.
Like I have mastered an albumthat got nominated, and I'm the
I'm the mastering engineer, butI actually, you know, I just

(01:18:21):
want to say that I know it'sprobably not the sexiest thing
to say, but um, you know, theseare my clients that have been
nominated, and I guess I'm yeah,you know, like um I'm I've been
a participant on on 15 Grammynominations.

You've imparted your like to throw it back at
you, you have you have impartedyour would they have been
nominated had you not masteredit?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, think about that.
You never know.
You never know.
I don't think that it's unfairfor you to say that, you know,
yes, I participated in those, Iwas not directly nominated.
But I also think it's fair foryou to say, I had a hand in
that.
It may not have happened.

Right.
And it's fifth, you know, 15.
I when I was like, oh damn,like this is 15.
That's I mean, that's not likea fluke.
No, you know.

No.
No, you're doing something, youknow, very intentional and very
real.
And you know, you you talkabout each attempt before uh you
won a Grammy, you know.
Let's uh those were steps thatyou were taking, and and every
year you could see that you weregetting closer and closer, and
then bam, you hit it.

Yeah, yeah, that that is uh that is true.
Like again, it goes back to umI mean, I hate I I don't love
like the word hustle.
It's just like been sooverdone.
But the legwork, you know, ofyou're putting the work in the
right.
Yeah, I mean, I can't tell youhow many times I have, you know,

(01:19:59):
New York, it's freezing, itrains, it snows, it sleets, it's
like disgusting out, and it'sTuesday night, you know, and I
got stuff to do in the morning.
I got, you know, revisions todo or invoices to send or
whatever.
I mean, this is like a I'mworking the job of eight of
eight people, you know, and I'mforcing myself to go to Music

(01:20:28):
Hall of William Williamsburg at10:30 p.m.
Uh, you know, for the late setto see this band that doesn't
even know I exist.
Yeah.
You know, I don't have anyconnection to the band.
I don't know the producer.
I mean, I I can look him up andI know, oh, there he is.
I recognize him from Instagram,but what am I just gonna walk

(01:20:51):
up to this person and like handhim a business card?
Like, that is not, you know,that's not what it, you know.
So doing that stuff um kind ofaimlessly, I mean, you know,
sometimes it works, sometimes itdoesn't.
Um, I I remember going to Southby Southwest and you know,

(01:21:11):
getting the flu, you know, likeat South by Southwest, trying
to, you know, get client getmore clients or get more uh
prospects, you know, maybe callthat prospecting, you know, just
exactly what it is.
Sure, yeah, yeah, networking.
Yeah, yeah, that kind of stuff,you know, like that uh over the

(01:21:32):
span of a decade.
And then, you know, I can'tstop.
Like, that's another thing.
I can't I can't stop.
I can't just kick back andenjoy this time where my phone
rings a lot.
Because, you know, withoutsaying any names, I I have seen

(01:21:54):
mastering engineers, mixedengineers, music producers who
were like killing it that aren'tas busy as I think they should
be, at least.
Um, knowing how good they areat what they do, I'm shocked.

You know, did they did they just stop doing the
reps though?
Did they just stop putting inthe time and the certain point
and they kind of go onautopilot, right?

Yeah, like I don't know exactly uh Or could
it be that they're in a in a ina location where there's not as
much work.
You you're you talk about NewYork, it's rainy, it's wet, it's
but but on a Tuesday you can gosee a show and network.

It's an awesome band.

Right.
Where I live in Florida, theweather is uh hot and we've
discussed hours.
Yeah, it's got stuff.
300 and something days offreaking sunshine.
Oh, it's oh it sounds awful.
Right.
But in my city where I live in,there's barely any venues for
live music.

(01:22:54):
I have to travel an hourusually to get to a venue for me
to play.
Um Tuesday night, there'sthere's no bands playing on
Tuesday nights.

Totally.
It's it's not it's notfrictionless anywhere.
Um and that's why, you know, II could make a point for moving
into a place like New York,which I consider the greatest
city in the world.
No disrespect to any other coolcities, but New York um is what

(01:23:26):
I chose because of that.
You know, it's all the majorlabels have offices in New York
City.
Um all of the um, you know,bands aren't skipping New York
on their tour, you know, likeevery band goes through New
York.
Bands skip my hometown all thetime.
Um yeah, sure.

(01:23:48):
But it's it, you know, it'sjust uh you're exactly right,
man.

Um it's you could I drive out of my I drive out
of my neighborhood and there's acow pasture.
Totally, totally.

You have to put you have to put yourself in those
uh rooms to like get lucky andhit it off with somebody, and
it's like, oh, the drummer, youknow, awesome, perfect.
You know, this is one moreperson than I knew before I
came.
And you do that like hundredsand hundreds of times.

(01:24:23):
Yeah, and um you met a lot ofpeople.
Yeah, I just kept networkingand and and I and I have to
continue that.
I mean, I have to continuethat.
I'm I'm I'm saying it here likepublicly, like I I am not gonna
stop doing that because I justyou know you can't rest on you

(01:24:43):
can't like rest on your credits,you know.
Like you have to keep going andkeep going and keep going.
And you might get like a a bigrun of like you know, for me,
I'm I'm like I'm doing somepretty cool jazz albums and some
pretty cool hip hop records andsome pretty like really cool

(01:25:05):
rock bands and stuff, but um ifI just stay in my studio for the
next 10 years, I promise you Iwon't be as busy now ten years
from today as I am today.

And that's just just that this totally mirrors
um what we talked about in uhthe February episode going to
NAM, talking about getting outof your studio, going in and
meeting people, whether it'sonce a year or once a month or
once a week, you gotta do it.
And and your proof of that,Dan, you know, you have killed

(01:25:44):
it.
And you've you've achieved whatso many people have worked
their entire lives to achieve,and you've done it.
So congratulations to you, man.
Like that is so nice.
That is incredible.
And and I think that anyone whowants to be a musician, a
mastering engineer, a mixingengineer, a producer, whatever,
the same principles all apply.

(01:26:06):
Totally.
And and uh so yeah, thank you,Dan, for for coming on to our
podcast and telling us yourstory.
This is really incredible.
Uh two quick questions beforewe go.
Softball.
Softball question.
You brought the hat.
He brought the hat.
What is your favorite plug-in?
Desert Island cannot livewithout your lab one.

Uh which is a hard question because you you
have that no template.

This is the stumper.
No, it's so good.
Yeah, I know.
You're you might have to deletelike 30 seconds of silence.
That's all right.
Um I mean, I I've probably saidthis in our mastermind group,
but the Pro Q3 is like my I'mtaking this on the desert

(01:27:04):
island.
Can't that's like 90% of thepeople.
You guys are like pro Q4, andI'm like, do I need that?
Like, do I really need it?
And I haven't upgraded yet.
No, I haven't.

I I'm still on Pro Q3.
Um I I see some people doingvideos, they're still on Pro Q2.

I mean, those those Pro Q EQs are just this amazing.

It's just yeah, that's my desert island.
Like, that's my um Swiss Armyknife.
Swiss Army knife, yeah.
You know, I need I need I needtransparent EQ.
You know, I need um I just needa solid EQ that doesn't in in

(01:27:49):
you know inject things.
Yeah, introduce like I don'tI'm not going with like this
noisy tube thing.

It's pretty tightly with you.

So then the other question is what is your doll of
choice?
What are you working on?
Oh, I'm doing Wave Lab.

Okay.

Yeah.

Have you heard of Wave Lab?
Oh yeah, that's what I use aswell.
Ben uses it.
Yeah, awesome.
Yeah, I love Wave Lab.
Uh although, you know, I'vetried them, I've tried them all.
I've maybe not all of them, butyou know, Pyramids, Sonic, uh
Sequoia, Pro Tools, obviously,like um probably leaving out a

(01:28:33):
few.
But yeah, I'm on Wavelab.
Wave Lab is affordable.
Yeah.
It does all the mastering stuffI need it to do.

You know, I think the fact it's pretty much
designed as a mastering DAWmeans it does the mastering
things more efficiently thanmost of the others.
I think is the sort of my is myposition on it.
You can do it in all theothers, but Wavelab just is kind
of built for it and so makes itmakes it easy.

Oh yeah.
No, I I could do all of theaudio processing stuff exactly
the same way in a Pro Tools.
I could do it in, you know, ifit actually probably more
efficiently, maybe even in someother DOS, but because of what
you said, and also having thebuilt-in, you know, all the

(01:29:25):
authoring stuff and yeah, umalso, you know, I mean I mean
this is all like Google, so it'snot like I'm unveiling some
secret thing, but it's just youknow, I I was on Sequoia, and
Sequoia is like multiplethousands of dollars for a
license.
And I was building that'sinsane, and I was building my

(01:29:47):
vacation rig.
I wasn't even building like astudio rig, you know.
I I just wanted to be able togo on my family beach trip, you
know, and not like maybe missout on an opportunity of a
lifetime to work with someartist that I mean that's just
hypothetical.
Like that it doesn't happen,like we said, you bring the rig

(01:30:09):
and that that call doesn't comein.
But uh, you know, I just neededthe vacation rig.
So I was like, what's what'slike sort of equivalent?
Does the same stuff, works on aPC.
Um Wave Lab was was where waswhat I went with, and I'm very
happy that I did that.

(01:30:29):
That's awesome.
Great.

I have I have one software.
Oh please, oh, you said yousaid that you were in a band at
one point.
We I like to ask what was thename of your first band?

The Jalapenos.
Yes.
That's awesome.
Fucking spicy.
That's a great name.
Ask about us.
Yeah.
Like if you lived in Charlotte,it's funny.
I've said this to people thatlived in Charlotte in like 2005,
and they're like, never heardof you.
Which is so funny.
Um, because that's the reality.

(01:31:07):
We were all like 17, and wethought we were, you know.
I thought I was gonna be likethe next Joe Perry or something,
you know.
Like I was like, we're gonna berock stars, man.
Yeah.
We all did it in 17.
Yeah.
And it's fun, it's funny youmentioned chili peppers because
like everyone would be like, soyou guys are like super into the

(01:31:29):
chili peppers, right?
And it was just we just thoughtjalapenos was a funny name.
Where it was like it's cool.
Yeah, and we spelled it with anH.
Oh, nice, yeah.
You know, and we and we likeworked, you know, like some
peppers into our like album art.
I mean, it you know, we werecommitted.
It's fun.

It was super fun, yeah.

Yeah, the jalapenos.
I I was um I guess I was thelead guitar player and like the
co-lead vocal.

There you go.

Nice, you know, and yeah, we played a lot of
covers, but we also we we made arecord of like actually I don't
remember how many songs it was,but you know, all originals.
And that was like my first timebeing in a studio.

Oh man, I I smell uh um I smell a hunt coming on.
We have to go find that record.
I've got like 490 unopened.

You can have 15 copies of it if you want.

Yeah, 500 men needs to be full of it.

My dad is like, my dad's like, anybody want any of
these?
Like what is it called?
Uh disc makers.
You know, disc makers, yeah.
We use disc makers, it'scellophane, it's got a barcode,
it's nice.

All right, Dan.
We are officially out of time,but man, thank you so much for
being here today.
It's been amazing.
Uh this has been a really greatconversation, and and thank you
for bringing your story to us.
Uh this was great.

Yeah, thank you for having me, and I hope I didn't
um ramble too too much.

No, it was awesome.
It's great.
It's perfect.

Awesome.
Thank you, guys.

Thank you for listening to Sound Discussion.
Your hosts are Ben Holmes, NeilMerchant, and me, Nate Kelms.
Our theme song is composed andrecorded by Jojo Timmerman.
You can find us on the internetat Sound Discussion
Podcast.com, or you can drop usa line at SoundDiscussion
Podcast at gmail.com.

(01:33:40):
Additional show notes for thisepisode can be found on our
website or in the descriptionarea of your podcast player.
A big thank you to our guestfor taking the time to chat with
us today, and to you, thelistener, for taking time out of
your busy schedule to be partof our discussion.
We look forward to having youjoin us again next month on
another episode of SoundDiscussion.

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