Acclaimed mastering engineer Mike Marsh demystifies the final stage of music production in this insightful episode. With a career spanning over three decades, working with artists like Björk, The Chemical Brothers, and Depeche Mode, Mike offers unparalleled expertise on what music mastering is and why it's important.
He addresses the common misconception of the "fix it in mastering" mindset, explaining that mastering cannot correct issues that should have been resolved during mixing. This highlights the critical difference between mixing and mastering in music.
Mike shares practical music mastering tips for independent artists, emphasising the importance of understanding your listening environment over relying solely on expensive equipment. He notes that some of the best mixes he's received came from modest home studios, underscoring that quality results are achievable without high-end gear.
The discussion also covers common mastering mistakes to avoid, such as over-compression and neglecting proper monitoring. Mike weighs in on the debate: Do you need a mastering engineer or can you DIY? He suggests that while self-mastering is possible, a professional's fresh perspective often enhances the final product.
Whether you're a seasoned producer or just starting, this episode provides valuable insights to elevate your music's final polish.
Links mentioned in this episode:
Listen to Half-Life
Follow Mike Marsh
Book your FREE 20 Minute Discovery Call
Follow Marc Matthews' Socials:
Instagram | YouTube | Synth Music Mastering
Thanks for listening!!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mike Marsh (00:00):
I would say the best thing for somebody to do to get
their head around their ownmonitoring system, because not
everybody's going to be able toafford reference monitors or you
know, if they've got to usecheap speakers you can listening
to or you think sounds good andsounds good elsewhere and
(00:28):
reference your mix to that trackjust to see where you think, oh
OK, now I can really see what'smissing in my mix.
Maybe it is my monitoringthat's making me, you know, make
the wrong calls with EQs andstuff like that.
Rich Bosic (00:43):
Hey Inside the Mix podcast fans, it's Rich Bozic.
You can find me on the Faceyour Ears podcast and at
bozicvoicestudiocom.
You are listening to the Insidethe Mix podcast.
Here's your host, mark Matthews.
Take it away.
Marc Matthews (01:00):
Welcome to Inside the Mix, your go-to podcast for
music creation and production.
Whether you're crafting yourfirst track or refining your
mixing skills, join me each weekfor expert interviews,
practical tutorials and insightsto help you level up your music
and smash it in the musicindustry.
Let's dive in.
Hey folks, before we dive intothis episode, my new song,
(01:24):
half-life, dropped on Fridaythat's Friday, the 2nd of May.
Click the link in the episodedescription.
If you like the idea of melodicdystopian house, give it a spin
and let me know what you think,as your feedback means a lot.
Let's dive into this episode.
Hello folks, welcome back toInside the Mix, or welcome if
you are a new listener, welcome.
(01:44):
Welcome back to Inside the Mix.
Welcome.
If you are a new listener,welcome welcome.
Today I am joined by renownedmastering engineer from just
around the corner to me inExmouth.
I'm based in Exeter.
If you're an avid listener ofthe podcast, you probably know
that already Engineer, masteringengineer Mike Marsh, whose
career spans over 30 yearsworking with legendary artists
like Bjork, the ChemicalBrothers, oasis, depeche Mode,
(02:07):
calvin Harris and Kasabian.
In this episode we're divinginto what mastering does and why
.
Maybe some commonmisconceptions as well, whether
you should master your tracks orhire an expert.
That's a critical one, one, Ithink, and is mastering always
necessary.
So, mike, welcome, welcome it'sgreat.
Mike Marsh (02:28):
Thank you very much for having me on board, and I
was going to say welcome todevon, but you're already here I
know, I know so for theaudience listening.
Marc Matthews (02:36):
I discovered, uh, mike through mike indivina's
podcast.
Uh, master your mix.
I'll put a link to that episodein the episode description.
So once you've listened to thisone, dive over and have a
listen to um, master your mix aswell.
So I discovered mike on thatpodcast and I was, and that's
when I was just like well, haveI not spoken to this guy before
on the podcast?
Bear in mind, he is just aroundthe corner from me in sunny
(02:57):
exmouth, very sunny exmouthtoday.
Mike Marsh (02:59):
My, uh, my ad as well, if it's anything like
exeter absolutely yeah, in fact,I've been on the beach with the
dog this afternoon for twohours, um, knee deep in sand and
, uh, the tide was out.
So, yeah, what's not to like ona day off of work when there's
when there's blue sky andsunshine in this country, you
got to make the most of it,right oh, most definitely, and,
uh, I know I know this is, uh,this particular time we're
(03:22):
talking in real time, but theweather at the moment is
absolutely fantastic.
Marc Matthews (03:24):
I was in Lyme Regis on Saturday on the
Jurassic Coast, and that's why Ilove being in the Southwest.
Mike Marsh (03:32):
This area is a whole different place.
It's very Jekyll and Hyde.
In the winter it's cold, darkand nobody's about.
In the summer, the whole placeis buzzing.
Wait till we get to July andaugust, and if we get some heat
as well, it's just, it's theplace to be yeah, I most
definitely, and I regularly walkalong exmouth uh, seafront uh,
(03:54):
whenever the weather's good nicedown to the beach straight down
there.
Marc Matthews (03:57):
Love it, absolutely, absolutely love it.
So, uh, yeah, audiencelistening.
If you've never been to thesouthwest um, exmouth is a is
amouth is definitely a place tocheck out Fantastic place.
Mike Marsh (04:08):
Good beach, good food good beers.
Marc Matthews (04:12):
Yeah, and we mentioned Sidmouth as well off
air Sidmouth's another greatplace.
I think that's where youmentioned you were from, if I
remember correctly, sidmouth'shome for me, it's where I grew
up as a kid as well.
Mike Marsh (04:20):
So, yeah, my roots are definitely set here and,
yeah, kid as well.
So, uh, yeah, my, my roots aredefinitely set here.
Um, and yeah, it's just a.
It's a nice chilled out placeto be, um, especially after
you've had kind of a full-on dayworking on on music and you
just want to come home and chillout.
Um, I used to work in london aswell, as we were saying, for 28
(04:42):
years, so I did the commuteevery week.
So to come back to Sidmouth waslike almost like going on
holiday.
You know what that does for youin terms of of recharging your
batteries, yeah, um, so yeah,it's great and it meant you
could.
You could get your energiesback again and then throw
yourself headlong back intosessions and be well up for it.
Marc Matthews (05:02):
So, yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that.
I mean, I didn't live in london, but I did move away.
I moved to move to cardiff andI moved up to bristol as well
and um, albeit not as sort ofbig as london.
But when I came back to thesouthwest I was like you know
what I?
I do, I do like it here oh yeah, I'm glad I came back, so
totally with you there.
So moving on to mastering.
(05:22):
So the idea with this episodefolks listening is you'll have a
clearer understanding ofmastering itself and how to
ensure your tracks sound thebest across all platforms.
So I think we strip it rightback to basics, um, in terms of
what is mastering and why it'snecessary.
So maybe you could talk aboutmastering and, uh, yeah,
basically what it is and why itis necessary in music production
(05:45):
I'm still figuring that outafter 30 odd years.
Mike Marsh (05:49):
Uh no, mastering is.
It's basically the, the verylast um point of the process in
making music where you cansonically change stuff um and
hopefully make stuff soundbetter if it doesn't sound very
good already.
So we get in there withequalizers, limiters,
compressors and that could beoutboard gear traditional
(06:12):
outboard gear, if you're a bitold school like me.
I'm using a lot of analog valveequipment, but also with a
combination of your digitalworkstation.
So plugins come into play.
I'm not a massive plugin user,but there are times when you
know that you're going to getgood result using plugins as
well as the analog gear.
(06:33):
So it's really the last stageat which you can change the
sound of a mix.
And if you've got a dodgysounding mix, sometimes you've
got to do a lot with all yourbuttons and knobs.
If you've got a good mix, Ialways have the if it ain't
broke, don't fix it attitude andI'm not looking to do something
(06:53):
if it doesn't need doing.
But very often now lots ofartists, producers and engineers
are working in asemi-professional environment,
perhaps with not the bestmonitoring, so it's not
everything's not kind of ascrystal critically clear as it
used to be when you bookedyourself into a big studio.
(07:15):
So sometimes mastering is evenmore important now because
you've got more amateurs makingmusic and they often don't have,
you know, a seasonedprofessional overseeing what
they're doing.
Nothing wrong with making it upas you go along, and, trust me,
I've heard some of the bestsounding mixes come out of a
(07:36):
teenager's bedroom on his laptop.
It's like whoa, okay, how didyou do that?
and I've heard some of the worstsounding mixes come out of big
studios with big name producersand I've put them on and gone
really.
So there's and there's no rulesin mastering.
You never know what you'regoing to get given from any
given source, from any differentcountry as well, because I work
(07:59):
on a lot of artists fromoverseas, from the States right
the way across to Japan, so youknow it really is a kind of a
blank canvas when you get sent amix.
Marc Matthews (08:12):
Very interesting.
I like what you said there inparticular about the difference
is when you mentioned.
You've got the bedroomproducers and their setup, and
then you've got the higher,higher end studios and sometimes
you'll get a submission from anartist who's in a bedroom
studio scenario and they've gota fantastic sounding mix.
And then you've got the polaropposite in this high-end studio
and it takes me back to when Iwas doing, uh, a degree and
(08:35):
there was a, there was a, therewas a lad and he was mixing and
he used to, and he was mixingusing apple earbuds and the
mixes he would get out of themabsolutely fantastic and I guess
that's because he probably knewhe'd used them so much and
listened to so much music onthem.
Mike Marsh (08:49):
He knew the response of those headphones and was
able to really dial in with themthat's the key thing because,
um, whenever you're making musicor fiddling around with the
sound of it, if you know exactlywhat you're listening to, you
will get those results.
So the guy using his earbuds ifhe's, all he's ever mixed on is
those and he knows what soundsgood outside of the box when
(09:11):
it's played elsewhere he's goingto nail it most of the time
because he's got a referencepoint.
And that, as well, is a keything.
About mastering.
You'll find that a lot ofmastering engineers don't work
in multiple studios.
They work, work in.
Like myself, I worked in thestudio at the Exchange for
nearly 30 years and the goodthing about that is you're so in
(09:35):
tune with your sonic space andwhen you're making critical
calls on people's music, youneed to know exactly what you're
listening to.
Marc Matthews (09:42):
You can't be second guessing what you're
listening to because you'remaking crucial adjustments on
somebody's mix yeah, mostdefinitely you mentioned, uh,
with regards to the mixes thathave been submitted and the more
sort of air quotes, amateurmixes that are sending you
submissions what if you had tohighlight sort of maybe one or
two common misconceptions, mixedmistakes let's say mixed
(10:06):
mistakes what would they be?
Mike Marsh (10:10):
That's a difficult one because it can be such a
mixed bag.
But if I'm trying to think onmy feet, I would say mixes
coming in that are too sub-bassy, too dumpy and not enough
energy in the sound, andsometimes that comes from
essentially the monitors notputting that bottom end
(10:33):
thickness and bass over to themixing engineer, that they crank
loads of it into the mix justso they can hear it on their
not-so-good monitors.
And then effectively, you end upwith a mix that is just so
skewed the wrong way becausethey've mixed it how they think
they're hearing it, but then youput it somewhere else and in
the outside world and it's adisaster because it doesn't
(10:56):
translate on any other system.
So that's why monitoring in anyenvironment is the key to what
you're doing and getting a goodresult.
Marc Matthews (11:06):
So just touching on that there, if you are a mix
engineer and you've got a lessthan adequate room, a bedroom
producer, something along thoselines, and you really wanted to
dial in or hone in that low end,are there any sort of tips or
tricks you can think of thatwill help with that?
Is it something that you couldbetter hear with headphones?
I know you mentioned there youuse in particular sort of analog
(11:32):
gear.
Is there anything in thedigital realm that can?
Mike Marsh (11:34):
help the listeners with that.
Headphones sometimes can be areal dangerous listening
environment because often theydon't um, they don't go full
range.
Yeah, your headphones might say, oh, they'll go 20 hertz sub
bass to 20k top end, butactually do they?
(11:56):
Um?
I would say the best thing forsomebody to do to get their head
around their own monitoringsystem, because not everybody's
going to be able to affordreference monitors or, you know,
if they've got to use cheapspeakers, you can get good if
you know what they sound like.
So use a reference track.
Use, um, if you're mixing acertain genre, pull up a track
(12:17):
of somebody, um that you likelistening to or you think sounds
good and it sounds goodelsewhere, and reference your
mix to to that track, just tosee where you think, oh okay,
now I can really see what'smissing in my mix.
Maybe it is my monitoringthat's making me, you know, make
the wrong calls with EQs andstuff like that.
(12:39):
You could try headphones andthen the monitors that you've
got.
If you've only got headphones,I would say that's going to
restrict you quite a lot andmake your life a bit more
difficult, unless you knowthey're really good headphones.
That you understand.
I mean, you mentioned that guywith his earbuds earlier on.
That just doesn't make sense.
But he's gotten hold of thefact of what he's listening to.
(13:02):
So that is the magic.
But a reference track is goingto help you come to some opinion
about what your room soundslike yes, uh, I, for throughout
the previous what's this?
Marc Matthews (13:14):
193, 193 episodes , I probably mentioned reference
tracks on at least, I'd say, 60or 70 percent of the episode in
particular.
And I really like what you saidthere about look at the, the
actual response of the referencetrack.
And it's something I do as wellin particular, if I've got a
reference track, then also inproduction I find I use it as
well.
When there's a particular soundI like of a song, I'm thinking,
(13:37):
okay, well, what frequency,what's the tonal balance of that
track, how is it, what does itlook like?
And that's and here obviouslywe listened as well but that I
can get frequency analyzers upand I I get quite scientific
with it, dig in.
But reference tracks arefantastic for that, I think so
it's a great piece of advice.
Mike Marsh (13:55):
They are and, and you know, um, I mean I use a, a
clark technic spectrum analyzerat the studio so I can see all
the different frequency bands aswell, so that gives you a
little bit of extra visual onwhat you think you're listening
to.
But I know that, like you canprobably get plugins that have
got a spectrum analyzer, so youcould, you could, run that up
(14:17):
with your mix as well and justtake a look visually and see
whether it correlates with whatyou're hearing yeah, most
definitely.
Marc Matthews (14:24):
Yeah, yeah, fantastic advice.
So, moving on from that, mynext sort of topic and we've
kind of touched on this alreadyreally is that classic sort of
fix it in the mastering or evenfix it in the mix which you hear
if you're coming from therecording realm.
But it's okay, they'll fix itin the mastering, which makes me
(14:44):
cringe whenever I say it.
Can you tell our audience a bitabout what it can and cannot do
?
Mike Marsh (14:51):
OK.
So yeah, let them fix it later.
Attitude just smacks ofsomebody not doing their job
properly at all.
I hate that.
And yeah, it gets used a lot,you know.
So a mastering engineer will doeverything he can to make your
track sound as good as somethingthat you know is out there
(15:12):
commercially.
But there are limitations, youknow, for there commercially,
but there are limitations, youknow, for the most part I try
not to be, I try not to beworking from stems.
So stems mastering is anotherthing that has become quite
popular in the last few years,which, as an explanation, is
basically somebody send you allthe different elements of their
(15:32):
mix for you to then call that upand do the mastering the minute
.
Anybody sends, wants to send mestems.
That is the classic example oflet them fix it at mastering.
It's basically why are yousending me the stems?
So I've got mix control.
If you're not actually happywith your mix, you've let me
take over what you should bedoing.
(15:52):
So I'm not a fan of stemsmastering.
I'll do it on a few minimalones, but you know, not 48 of
them please.
So the thing is, when we'remastering, for the most part
we're working with a stereo WAVfile.
So your left channel and yourright channel and you are
restricted.
You've not got individual fadercontrol over all of the
elements, you've only gotequalization control over the
(16:17):
general tone of the sound ofyour mix.
Having said that, you can do aheck of a lot.
You know you can transform amix just with eq, provided that
the mix balance is good and theseparation between all the
elements is not fighting forspace.
Because if it's fighting forspace and you try and eq
(16:40):
something, you're going to eqeverything else around what
you're fighting with.
So the key is to have a lot ofseparation between the elements
in your mix, particularly in thebottom end, like kicks, bass,
bass lines, all that kind ofstuff, because once that stuff
becomes a mess it's reallydifficult to home in at
(17:00):
mastering and tidy it up.
If, say, for example, you had avery bass heavy mix that was
very dumpy and lifeless sounding, then you get in with some some
mid range, some 3k, some 5k,get the snappiness back in the
sound, some mid-range, some 3k,some 5k, get the snappiness back
in the sound.
And maybe you're going to needsome high tops as well for, you
know, for those hats and the,just the air in the sound For
(17:23):
the most part that's what I findI'm concentrating on an awful
lot is the mid-range energy andthe high end clarity.
Most people normally nail thebass end, even if there's too
much of it.
I can get in there and enliven amix and make it sound energetic
without asking for a recall onthe mix.
You can just get in there anddo it with EQ, but it totally
(17:46):
relies on everything else in themix allowing you to do that.
Marc Matthews (17:51):
Yeah, what you mentioned there about stem
mastering was quite interestingbecause I've received stems and
done mastering but I'd neveractually thought of it, never
tweaked in my brain.
Actually, are they sending methis because they want me to
basically mix it for them?
Rich Bosic (18:07):
I never actually considered that.
Marc Matthews (18:09):
It did cross my mind until you mentioned it then
.
Now, going forward, I'm goingto ask a few more questions.
It's very rarely that I getSTEM masters, to be fair, but
it's an interesting one.
I never really thought of itthat way.
Maybe I should have done.
Mike Marsh (18:24):
Well, it always.
Any time I see an email come insaying, can we send you STEMs?
Straight away, I'm like OK, soyou're not happy with your mix,
right?
So then you get into this wholemixing and mastering thing, and
I know that's the modern wayforward, but I'm an old git
who's come from the old school30 plus years of doing it.
And you have mixing engineers,you have mastering engineers,
(18:47):
and everybody should be on topof their game doing their job
indeed, indeed, I totally agree.
Marc Matthews (18:52):
I think, specifically if you are an
artist, musician, and you andyou have outsourced mixing to
someone to do it for you andthey're inherently not
necessarily doing it to the bestof their ability, or maybe they
need to think about theirprocesses themselves, you'd like
to think that they would be,yeah, when you work on other
(19:12):
people's music.
Mike Marsh (19:13):
You have to be on top of your game the whole time.
When I'm working in the studio,uh, whatever genre of music it
is, whatever artist it is, Itreat it as if it's my music.
So it becomes a very personalcrusade.
It's not just me doing a jobfor somebody else and saying,
right, there's the invoice,thanks, bye.
Next it.
You know you've got to throwyourself into it and keep the
(19:35):
bar raised the whole timebecause, trust me, there'll be
plenty of.
You know you've got to throwyourself into it and keep the
bar raised the whole timebecause, trust me, there'll be
plenty of.
You know young whippersnapperscoming along who will take all
your clients if you, if you letthe side down and you know,
don't give it.
110 percent.
Marc Matthews (19:56):
Just to segue slightly or tangent slightly
here, as you mentioned genres,music, etc.
So you are.
Are there any genres that youwould not turn away but you'd be
like not too sure about thatone, or are you sort of open to
any sort of music being sentyour way?
Mike Marsh (20:07):
Yeah, anything In terms of my kind of background
and CV.
I've not worked on muchclassical music in my whole life
, to be fair.
A few, you know, maybe a fewmovie scores and stuff like that
.
But my kind of CV is so all overthe place and goes off on
(20:27):
tangents from rock to drum andbass to dance music to you know
it's every.
But I love that because I'm notpigeonholed in one genre and
effectively what I'm doing isthe same thing to a rock track
or a hip hop track or a drum andbass track.
You got to be mindful of thegenre a little bit, because
(20:47):
certain frequencies need to popa bit more for a certain genre.
But the bottom line when you'remastering is you're aiming to
achieve out of what you've beensent the same thing, which is,
you know, perfection as far asyou can get it and an engaging
listen, whether it be, you know,a screaming rock band or a sub
heavy drum and bass outfit.
Marc Matthews (21:10):
Interesting.
Just swinging it back to thestem mastering discussion we
were having just then.
Just swinging it back to thestem mastering discussion we
were having just then.
You mentioned an interestingbit which was about instruments
or sounds, let's say, fightingfor space, and this is a topic
that I've sort of spoken abouton the podcast before, in
particular with maybe more sortof up-and-coming mixers or
producers or artists mixingtheir own music.
(21:32):
Are there any tips or tricksthere?
Is there like one particularpiece of advice you would give
them, in particular with regardsto instruments and finding
space in a mix for eachinstrument?
Mike Marsh (21:45):
Yeah, probably a spectrum analyzer so that you
can actually you can also seewhat's going on.
Music is all about frequenciesand there are certain
instruments that will all be inthe same kind of area.
A classic case, for example, islike I may get a request on a on
(22:08):
a mastering job where somebodysays, oh, the vocal sounds a
little bit low, it's a littlebit shy in the mix, and then you
put the mix on and the guitarsor mid-range elements of the mix
are in your face already.
So you've got absolutely nochance of trying to dig that
vocal out because all the otherfrequencies in around that vocal
(22:31):
area are pushed too high.
So, yeah, a spectrum analyzeris going to give you a clear
view and any mixing music andworking on music, sometimes
visual aids are really important.
You need that kind of thatsecond set of ears, if you like,
and that's your eyes that giveyou that clarity on what you
(22:54):
think you're mixing.
You know it's not hard to getseparation between the elements,
but it's the more you throwinto a mix, the more likely
you're going to cluttereverything up.
You know, and one of theclassic lines with a mix and I
always hand it back to clientssaying just think hip hop.
Marc Matthews (23:15):
You might not be mixing hip hop, but just think
hip-hop, because it's sostripped down and less is more,
so when you've got less going onit often sounds bigger, fatter,
louder, all that yeah, I wasjust about to say that about you
preempted what I was going tosay with regards to the less is
more, and it's something thatI've learned throughout the
years of writing and producing,recording my own music, and it's
(23:38):
something I was going throughthe other day.
I was working on a song inparticular I'm gonna be
releasing soon and I was likeit's just not.
It's just not landing right,it's not landing the way I want.
So I listened to the referencetrack and then I listened I was
like, actually, in the introthey've just got, I can hear a
kick drum, I can hear a vocaland I can hear some bass, and
that was it, and I was like whyam I trying to throw all this
other stuff in there?
Yeah, um, and in fact, if Itake something out and I'm like,
(24:01):
okay, now it's just opened up,you know.
So I think it's.
It's something that I've,having spoken to or engaged with
the audience a lot for itthrough this podcast and I've
said this a few times and I'vesaid this independently as well
on one-to-ones it's like maybeyou just need to take some stuff
out.
Mike Marsh (24:16):
You have to go through that.
You have to go through that torealise it.
And until you've actually youknow that light bulb's come on
in your head.
It doesn't make sense.
How can less be more?
I need to throw everything andthe kitchen sink in it, don't I?
You know?
Yeah, but yeah.
Marc Matthews (24:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally agree.
I totally agree.
I was listening to, uh, some ofthe songs I put up a few years
ago.
And I'm listening, I'm not likewhy?
Why have I made thosesoundtracks?
Why is that in there?
And and then I listen to thestuff I've got now and I'm like,
okay, I can see why, I can seewhy it's.
Then you've got to go throughthat learning process.
Yeah, it's called experience.
Yeah, most definitely, this isan interesting one, and I this
is again I do regularly go offand say engines, and I've had
other mastering engineers on theshow and I've and in particular
(24:59):
I can't remember theconversation I had, but they put
forward an interesting pointwhich was to not necessarily
learn the art of mastery, but atleast have an awareness of
what's involved and maybe getsome experience if you can, and
and then work your way backwards.
So let's say you're a mixengineer and then maybe spend
some time in the realm ofmastering so you know what you
(25:22):
are submitting and what'spotentially going to happen to
it.
Would you say that's a goodsort of plan or pathway to
follow?
Mike Marsh (25:29):
definitely because you're educating yourself, uh,
on the wider process of puttingmusic out, rather than just, you
know, concentrating on what youdo.
You don't have to get yourhands on and do it, but just an
awareness thing is really good.
I've been doing a few workshopswith some of the students at
(25:50):
Exeter College who were on themusic technology and production
course like my son was back inthe day and one of the things I
say to them primarily they'reall into recording is yeah, get
a handle on what mastering isand what you can do and what you
can't do, you know, so that youwill then avoid yourself saying
(26:12):
, ah, they can fix that in themastering, Because if you're
aware of the restrictions,you're going to hopefully
deliver a much better pre-mixproduct than you would do if you
just went.
Well, I can't do any more now,I'm burnt out on it.
I'll let somebody else takeover.
Marc Matthews (26:33):
Yeah, I would agree, and I was quite lucky
when I was doing way back when,when I was doing my studies and
I made the made the choice, Iwas like you know what, for this
work experience, I'm going togo spend time with a mastering
engineer.
And I did that and it just justthat week I spent there.
It opened my eyes to thinkingokay, now when I am mixing or
I'm creating something, I cansee where it's eventually going
(26:56):
to go before it's then going tobe out on digital platforms,
whatever release is going to gothrough.
Um, but what I I mean in thesame breath, I do recall as well
not enough time was spentfocusing on it, I found.
I mean that this was a whileback, so it could well have
changed now, and I can't make asweeping statement on all
courses, but I do remember withmine it was only a fraction, a
(27:16):
tiny fraction, of the actualcourse itself, uh, where they
touched on mastering yeah,that's a shame because, um,
mastering is something whichactually takes a while to get
get a grip of it and, um, themain reason of that is you need
to be.
Mike Marsh (27:32):
You need to be listening to lots and lots and
lots of different mixes fromdifferent studios to educate
yourself in your head about whatsounds good and bad.
Um, when I first started, uh,vinyl was the the biggest
selling format.
So, uh, not only did I have tolearn how to operate the disc,
cutting lathe, you're alsofinding your feet and your own
(27:55):
confidence in what stuff soundslike what's good.
What should I do to this?
You know, you're it's thatconfidence, experience thing,
and I reckon I reckon itprobably is a good two to three
years of being inundated withlots of different mixes from
lots of different places beforeyou feel comfortable to go.
Marc Matthews (28:15):
Okay, I can go straight to that, and and you're
in that position where youinstantly know what to do yeah,
and I think also with thatexperience you also get the the
knowledge and experience againto use the same word twice to
know when actually I probablyprobably don't need to do a
great deal in this exactly.
Mike Marsh (28:33):
Yeah, I'm not going to do something for the sake of
doing it, if that makes sense,yeah, yeah and again, that comes
with experience too, becausesometimes as a new guy you're
going to go well, I better dosomething.
You know, otherwise they'regoing to think I'm just sitting
around doing nothing.
But that is a magic moment whenyou get that mix that is
already pretty much nailed it,um, you don't need to be looking
(28:55):
for things to fix, you know.
Uh, it's very rare that ithappens, but and I've still got
my notebooks going back to 1988,so I can, I can do you like a
total recall on analog notebooks.
That's how geeky it is, um, butit's very rare.
I've written in my notebookflat, and as in flat I mean not
(29:16):
EQing anything, you know.
Marc Matthews (29:20):
Wow, that's quite a list.
I was going to give away my agethen.
Well, I will, but I would havebeen two.
Mike Marsh (29:26):
Okay, well, I'm way older than you, so it doesn't
matter.
Marc Matthews (29:31):
Yeah, amazing.
This kind of moves on nicely tomy next topic, and this is all
around.
Should the mixing and masteringengineer be the same person?
So this is interesting.
This goes back to what youmentioned earlier about the sort
of the amateur mixers, andwe've got producers and a lot of
people doing everythingthemselves.
So Many independent artistshandle mixing and mastering.
(29:55):
What are the pros, if any, andwhat are the cons of that
particular workflow, would yousay?
Mike Marsh (30:02):
OK.
Well, the pros and the cons canalmost be summarised in one
sentence.
Really, a mastering engineer orsomebody else working on your
music is the first time anotherset of ears outside of your
environment has heard whatyou're doing when you're, when
you're performing, mixing,recording and then trying to
(30:24):
master all of it yourself, you,you lose complete perspective on
what sounds good anymore, andI've worked with a lot of
artists who've tried itthemselves and they just end up
chasing their tail, going roundand round in circles because
they don't know anymore.
And I admire people who give ita go.
But right now I work with a lotof artists who are quite
(30:48):
capable of recording their ownstuff and mixing their own stuff
and probably mastering theirown stuff if I'm honest, and
probably mastering their ownstuff if I'm honest.
But they still send it to mebecause I'm that second set of
ears outside of their comfortzone, with no.
The other thing is you know,when you're working on something
so closely, you've got thiskind of inbuilt kind of
(31:09):
attachment to the project,whereas if I hear it, you know I
don't know anything that wentinto it.
I don't know any of theproblems.
I don't know any of theproblems I don't know any of the
fallouts that have gone onalong the way.
I'm completely independentsonically, so that's a good
thing about a mastering engineer, is?
It's a new set of ears fresh tothe table.
Marc Matthews (31:30):
Yeah, what are your thoughts and perspectives
on the sort of AI masteringlandscape?
Mike Marsh (31:37):
I'm very aware it's out there and of course, in a
way, it's quite hurtful becauseI earn a living by doing it
myself and doing it by ear.
But you know, I'm very awareit's out there.
I mean, there was Lando I thinkwas one of the very first ones
that came up and I've heard it'svery mix dependent actually.
So I've heard clients have sentme references of how they got
(32:01):
it done on Landy, you know.
So I've heard good things andI've heard bad things and I
think the bottom line is AI andalgorithms and all of that are
still never going to be quite asgood as the human is,
especially when you've got aslightly ropey mix.
If your mix is pretty good andthe balance is right and the EQs
(32:23):
totally are good, then anonline AI mastering thing is
going to have a fairly goodcrack, to be fair.
But if you've got problems orfrequency issues or stuff like
that, then it's really going tostruggle.
Marc Matthews (32:37):
Yeah, and you also don't have that sort of
feedback loop either, do you?
You don't have thatrelationship, that rapport with
the mastering engineer as well,were they?
Mike Marsh (32:44):
About what's good or bad.
Marc Matthews (32:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
And that feedback and said,okay, well, I've done this this
time, so next time you'reworking on this particular sort
of style, the genre of music,maybe consider doing this in
your mix, that way, exactly themastering.
I'm not going to have to makesuch um, not drastic, but such
changes in that particular.
In that particular maybe it'scompression or or eq, for
(33:06):
example.
So you're not, you don't getthat feedback loop.
And also, sometimes, I guess aswell, you, you're going to make
create, are you going to makecreative decisions you might do
if you've got that relationshipwith the artist and saying, okay
, well, maybe we'll do thisbecause it's slightly outside
the box in terms of what wewould usually do with the
conventional master, but you,let's say that that conversation
you're never going to get withai.
That's the thing I mean.
(33:26):
Maybe absolutely.
Mike Marsh (33:27):
Yeah, it is.
But yeah, right now, and thewhole of my career is has been
based on on client interaction.
Uh, it's it.
Back in the, I used to getattended sessions all the time,
so you used to have people comework with you.
Often they just came along forthe laugh, came along for the
ride, but nowadays a lot morework is remote, but you still
(33:49):
have either on the phone or aZoom call or just even on an
email.
I still get established artistsasking for feedback on what I
thought about the mixes and whatthey might be able to do to
improve.
And because I've now, I guess,been doing it for so long, I
(34:10):
feel like I'm quantified to saywhat I think rather than, like
you know, sweeten up somethingthat actually was a load of crap
.
But I'm just going to not saythat because it might hurt their
feelings.
Now I'll hurt your feelings ifit's warranted but in a nice way
.
Rich Bosic (34:26):
Do you know what I?
Mike Marsh (34:26):
mean.
Marc Matthews (34:27):
It's so yeah.
Mike Marsh (34:28):
So, and trust me, we're all learning the whole
time.
You know I'm sat here as avintage old age, not an old age
pensioner.
Yeah, I still feel like ateenager.
I'm sat here as a vintage oldage, not an old age pensioner,
yet I still feel like a teenagerbut I still don't feel like I
know it all.
So every day at work is a brandnew day, a new job.
Marc Matthews (34:46):
100%, I totally agree with that.
I routinely learn something newevery day, and I often learn
things from the listeners aswell.
They send feedback or responsesto something I've said or
what's been said on the podcast,and I that's.
That's good to me.
Rich Bosic (34:59):
So yeah, which is amazing.
Marc Matthews (35:01):
Uh, I realize that, mike, we're coming towards
the end of our discussion here,so there's one, one quick
question I want to throw yourway.
Is somebody listening to thishas been inspired and they want
to sort of get their teeth intomastering?
Where would you say they shouldstart?
Mike Marsh (35:16):
uh, I guess it depends on age.
But if you're, if you'recollege, school, school, college
age, then I reckon, um, yourlocal kind of um, uni or tech
college, that might offer arecording and a mastering course
.
Um, as a starting point, justto get your head around the
technical side, there's a lot of, there's a lot of kind of
(35:36):
electronics and technical stuffthat's handy to know before you
even start playing around with adigital workstation or whatever
.
So if you're a young person,you know, still in education,
that would be a good route.
It's really hard from then onto get your foot in the door as
a tea boy, tea girl at amastering studio, because times
(35:58):
have changed, big studios havekind of all disappeared.
It's very hard for for a personinterested in wanting to be a
mastering engineer to actuallyget in and sit on sessions.
It really is so, but certainly Iwould say a college route if
you, you know, if you're, uh, ifyou're still in education, that
(36:20):
would be a good start.
Um and um, you know, if you'reinto music at that young age, no
doubt you're probably alreadymaking music as well.
Um, so yeah, getting gettingyour head around, maybe logic or
something like that, and andand teaching yourself how you
might go about making music.
Um is also a great start yeah,fantastic, excellent stuff, mike
(36:45):
.
Marc Matthews (36:45):
Thank you very much.
Um, it's been a pleasurechatting with you and, as I say,
it's always a pleasure chattingwith someone from the local
area, which doesn't happen often, aside from if the audience
listening.
They'll know tim, who's been onthe podcast a few times and he
lives in watch it, so I thinkthat is the closest.
If my memory of 193 episodes go, I think you might be the
closest.
Actually you might be theclosest person now to me where
(37:05):
I'm based who's been on thepodcast, which is amazing and it
was so cool that I was randomlygoing for I say randomly, I go
for a run every week, or but Iwas listening to master your mix
and then listening to yourepisode and I was like what?
I was just around the cornerfrom me, yeah, which was
fantastic.
So, um, for the audiencelistening, maybe, uh could you
share where they can find outmore about you and, uh, what,
(37:29):
what you're doing, what you'reup to, or maybe even they want
to work with you as well.
Mike Marsh (37:34):
Yeah, sure.
So I guess the website is agood place to start, which is at
wwwmikemarshmasteringcouk, theemail address you can find from
the website as well.
I'm on the socials Facebook andInsta.
I'm not kind of like on it 24-7.
(37:58):
I dip in and out, but I havegot a Facebook profile and I
have got an Instagram profileMike Marsh Mastering would be
your search word there.
So, yeah, and email isobviously the best place to get
in touch initially.
But, yeah, come and say hi orcome and check out the profiles
and see what we're up to.
Marc Matthews (38:19):
Fantastic.
I'll put links in the episodeaudience listening, so you can
find all of that there.
Mike, it's been an absolutepleasure and I will catch up
with you soon and enjoy the restof the sun as well.
Mike Marsh (38:33):
We should probably end the podcast by saying see
you on the beach.
Marc Matthews (38:37):
Yes, you know what we should do an episode on
the beach.
Rich Bosic (38:41):
I'll tell you what I'd be well up for that.
Marc Matthews (38:43):
I'll be there.
Fantastic, alright.
Cheers, mike, I'll catch upwith you soon.
I would say the best thing for somebody to do to get
their head around their ownmonitoring system, because not
everybody's going to be able toafford reference monitors or you
know, if they've got to usecheap speakers you can listening
to or you think sounds good andsounds good elsewhere and
(00:28):
reference your mix to that trackjust to see where you think, oh
OK, now I can really see what'smissing in my mix.
Maybe it is my monitoringthat's making me, you know, make
the wrong calls with EQs andstuff like that.
Rich Bosic (00:43):
Hey Inside the Mix podcast fans, it's Rich Bozic.
You can find me on the Faceyour Ears podcast and at
bozicvoicestudiocom.
You are listening to the Insidethe Mix podcast.
Here's your host, mark Matthews.
Take it away.
Marc Matthews (01:00):
Welcome to Inside the Mix, your go-to podcast for
music creation and production.
Whether you're crafting yourfirst track or refining your
mixing skills, join me each weekfor expert interviews,
practical tutorials and insightsto help you level up your music
and smash it in the musicindustry.
Let's dive in.
Hey folks, before we dive intothis episode, my new song,
(01:24):
half-life, dropped on Fridaythat's Friday, the 2nd of May.
Click the link in the episodedescription.
If you like the idea of melodicdystopian house, give it a spin
and let me know what you think,as your feedback means a lot.
Let's dive into this episode.
Hello folks, welcome back toInside the Mix, or welcome if
you are a new listener, welcome.
(01:44):
Welcome back to Inside the Mix.
Welcome.
If you are a new listener,welcome welcome.
Today I am joined by renownedmastering engineer from just
around the corner to me inExmouth.
I'm based in Exeter.
If you're an avid listener ofthe podcast, you probably know
that already Engineer, masteringengineer Mike Marsh, whose
career spans over 30 yearsworking with legendary artists
like Bjork, the ChemicalBrothers, oasis, depeche Mode,
(02:07):
calvin Harris and Kasabian.
In this episode we're divinginto what mastering does and why
.
Maybe some commonmisconceptions as well, whether
you should master your tracks orhire an expert.
That's a critical one, one, Ithink, and is mastering always
necessary.
So, mike, welcome, welcome it'sgreat.
Mike Marsh (02:28):
Thank you very much for having me on board, and I
was going to say welcome todevon, but you're already here I
know, I know so for theaudience listening.
Marc Matthews (02:36):
I discovered, uh, mike through mike indivina's
podcast.
Uh, master your mix.
I'll put a link to that episodein the episode description.
So once you've listened to thisone, dive over and have a
listen to um, master your mix aswell.
So I discovered mike on thatpodcast and I was, and that's
when I was just like well, haveI not spoken to this guy before
on the podcast?
Bear in mind, he is just aroundthe corner from me in sunny
(02:57):
exmouth, very sunny exmouthtoday.
Mike Marsh (02:59):
My, uh, my ad as well, if it's anything like
exeter absolutely yeah, in fact,I've been on the beach with the
dog this afternoon for twohours, um, knee deep in sand and
, uh, the tide was out.
So, yeah, what's not to like ona day off of work when there's
when there's blue sky andsunshine in this country, you
got to make the most of it,right oh, most definitely, and,
uh, I know I know this is, uh,this particular time we're
(03:22):
talking in real time, but theweather at the moment is
absolutely fantastic.
Marc Matthews (03:24):
I was in Lyme Regis on Saturday on the
Jurassic Coast, and that's why Ilove being in the Southwest.
Mike Marsh (03:32):
This area is a whole different place.
It's very Jekyll and Hyde.
In the winter it's cold, darkand nobody's about.
In the summer, the whole placeis buzzing.
Wait till we get to July andaugust, and if we get some heat
as well, it's just, it's theplace to be yeah, I most
definitely, and I regularly walkalong exmouth uh, seafront uh,
(03:54):
whenever the weather's good nicedown to the beach straight down
there.
Marc Matthews (03:57):
Love it, absolutely, absolutely love it.
So, uh, yeah, audiencelistening.
If you've never been to thesouthwest um, exmouth is a is
amouth is definitely a place tocheck out Fantastic place.
Mike Marsh (04:08):
Good beach, good food good beers.
Marc Matthews (04:12):
Yeah, and we mentioned Sidmouth as well off
air Sidmouth's another greatplace.
I think that's where youmentioned you were from, if I
remember correctly, sidmouth'shome for me, it's where I grew
up as a kid as well.
Mike Marsh (04:20):
So, yeah, my roots are definitely set here and,
yeah, kid as well.
So, uh, yeah, my, my roots aredefinitely set here.
Um, and yeah, it's just a.
It's a nice chilled out placeto be, um, especially after
you've had kind of a full-on dayworking on on music and you
just want to come home and chillout.
Um, I used to work in london aswell, as we were saying, for 28
(04:42):
years, so I did the commuteevery week.
So to come back to Sidmouth waslike almost like going on
holiday.
You know what that does for youin terms of of recharging your
batteries, yeah, um, so yeah,it's great and it meant you
could.
You could get your energiesback again and then throw
yourself headlong back intosessions and be well up for it.
Marc Matthews (05:02):
So, yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that.
I mean, I didn't live in london, but I did move away.
I moved to move to cardiff andI moved up to bristol as well
and um, albeit not as sort ofbig as london.
But when I came back to thesouthwest I was like you know
what I?
I do, I do like it here oh yeah, I'm glad I came back, so
totally with you there.
So moving on to mastering.
(05:22):
So the idea with this episodefolks listening is you'll have a
clearer understanding ofmastering itself and how to
ensure your tracks sound thebest across all platforms.
So I think we strip it rightback to basics, um, in terms of
what is mastering and why it'snecessary.
So maybe you could talk aboutmastering and, uh, yeah,
basically what it is and why itis necessary in music production
(05:45):
I'm still figuring that outafter 30 odd years.
Mike Marsh (05:49):
Uh no, mastering is.
It's basically the, the verylast um point of the process in
making music where you cansonically change stuff um and
hopefully make stuff soundbetter if it doesn't sound very
good already.
So we get in there withequalizers, limiters,
compressors and that could beoutboard gear traditional
(06:12):
outboard gear, if you're a bitold school like me.
I'm using a lot of analog valveequipment, but also with a
combination of your digitalworkstation.
So plugins come into play.
I'm not a massive plugin user,but there are times when you
know that you're going to getgood result using plugins as
well as the analog gear.
(06:33):
So it's really the last stageat which you can change the
sound of a mix.
And if you've got a dodgysounding mix, sometimes you've
got to do a lot with all yourbuttons and knobs.
If you've got a good mix, Ialways have the if it ain't
broke, don't fix it attitude andI'm not looking to do something
(06:53):
if it doesn't need doing.
But very often now lots ofartists, producers and engineers
are working in asemi-professional environment,
perhaps with not the bestmonitoring, so it's not
everything's not kind of ascrystal critically clear as it
used to be when you bookedyourself into a big studio.
(07:15):
So sometimes mastering is evenmore important now because
you've got more amateurs makingmusic and they often don't have,
you know, a seasonedprofessional overseeing what
they're doing.
Nothing wrong with making it upas you go along, and, trust me,
I've heard some of the bestsounding mixes come out of a
(07:36):
teenager's bedroom on his laptop.
It's like whoa, okay, how didyou do that?
and I've heard some of the worstsounding mixes come out of big
studios with big name producersand I've put them on and gone
really.
So there's and there's no rulesin mastering.
You never know what you'regoing to get given from any
given source, from any differentcountry as well, because I work
(07:59):
on a lot of artists fromoverseas, from the States right
the way across to Japan, so youknow it really is a kind of a
blank canvas when you get sent amix.
Marc Matthews (08:12):
Very interesting.
I like what you said there inparticular about the difference
is when you mentioned.
You've got the bedroomproducers and their setup, and
then you've got the higher,higher end studios and sometimes
you'll get a submission from anartist who's in a bedroom
studio scenario and they've gota fantastic sounding mix.
And then you've got the polaropposite in this high-end studio
and it takes me back to when Iwas doing, uh, a degree and
(08:35):
there was a, there was a, therewas a lad and he was mixing and
he used to, and he was mixingusing apple earbuds and the
mixes he would get out of themabsolutely fantastic and I guess
that's because he probably knewhe'd used them so much and
listened to so much music onthem.
Mike Marsh (08:49):
He knew the response of those headphones and was
able to really dial in with themthat's the key thing because,
um, whenever you're making musicor fiddling around with the
sound of it, if you know exactlywhat you're listening to, you
will get those results.
So the guy using his earbuds ifhe's, all he's ever mixed on is
those and he knows what soundsgood outside of the box when
(09:11):
it's played elsewhere he's goingto nail it most of the time
because he's got a referencepoint.
And that, as well, is a keything.
About mastering.
You'll find that a lot ofmastering engineers don't work
in multiple studios.
They work, work in.
Like myself, I worked in thestudio at the Exchange for
nearly 30 years and the goodthing about that is you're so in
(09:35):
tune with your sonic space andwhen you're making critical
calls on people's music, youneed to know exactly what you're
listening to.
Marc Matthews (09:42):
You can't be second guessing what you're
listening to because you'remaking crucial adjustments on
somebody's mix yeah, mostdefinitely you mentioned, uh,
with regards to the mixes thathave been submitted and the more
sort of air quotes, amateurmixes that are sending you
submissions what if you had tohighlight sort of maybe one or
two common misconceptions, mixedmistakes let's say mixed
(10:06):
mistakes what would they be?
Mike Marsh (10:10):
That's a difficult one because it can be such a
mixed bag.
But if I'm trying to think onmy feet, I would say mixes
coming in that are too sub-bassy, too dumpy and not enough
energy in the sound, andsometimes that comes from
essentially the monitors notputting that bottom end
(10:33):
thickness and bass over to themixing engineer, that they crank
loads of it into the mix justso they can hear it on their
not-so-good monitors.
And then effectively, you end upwith a mix that is just so
skewed the wrong way becausethey've mixed it how they think
they're hearing it, but then youput it somewhere else and in
the outside world and it's adisaster because it doesn't
(10:56):
translate on any other system.
So that's why monitoring in anyenvironment is the key to what
you're doing and getting a goodresult.
Marc Matthews (11:06):
So just touching on that there, if you are a mix
engineer and you've got a lessthan adequate room, a bedroom
producer, something along thoselines, and you really wanted to
dial in or hone in that low end,are there any sort of tips or
tricks you can think of thatwill help with that?
Is it something that you couldbetter hear with headphones?
I know you mentioned there youuse in particular sort of analog
(11:32):
gear.
Is there anything in thedigital realm that can?
Mike Marsh (11:34):
help the listeners with that.
Headphones sometimes can be areal dangerous listening
environment because often theydon't um, they don't go full
range.
Yeah, your headphones might say, oh, they'll go 20 hertz sub
bass to 20k top end, butactually do they?
(11:56):
Um?
I would say the best thing forsomebody to do to get their head
around their own monitoringsystem, because not everybody's
going to be able to affordreference monitors or, you know,
if they've got to use cheapspeakers, you can get good if
you know what they sound like.
So use a reference track.
Use, um, if you're mixing acertain genre, pull up a track
(12:17):
of somebody, um that you likelistening to or you think sounds
good and it sounds goodelsewhere, and reference your
mix to to that track, just tosee where you think, oh okay,
now I can really see what'smissing in my mix.
Maybe it is my monitoringthat's making me, you know, make
the wrong calls with EQs andstuff like that.
(12:39):
You could try headphones andthen the monitors that you've
got.
If you've only got headphones,I would say that's going to
restrict you quite a lot andmake your life a bit more
difficult, unless you knowthey're really good headphones.
That you understand.
I mean, you mentioned that guywith his earbuds earlier on.
That just doesn't make sense.
But he's gotten hold of thefact of what he's listening to.
(13:02):
So that is the magic.
But a reference track is goingto help you come to some opinion
about what your room soundslike yes, uh, I, for throughout
the previous what's this?
Marc Matthews (13:14):
193, 193 episodes , I probably mentioned reference
tracks on at least, I'd say, 60or 70 percent of the episode in
particular.
And I really like what you saidthere about look at the, the
actual response of the referencetrack.
And it's something I do as wellin particular, if I've got a
reference track, then also inproduction I find I use it as
well.
When there's a particular soundI like of a song, I'm thinking,
(13:37):
okay, well, what frequency,what's the tonal balance of that
track, how is it, what does itlook like?
And that's and here obviouslywe listened as well but that I
can get frequency analyzers upand I I get quite scientific
with it, dig in.
But reference tracks arefantastic for that, I think so
it's a great piece of advice.
Mike Marsh (13:55):
They are and, and you know, um, I mean I use a, a
clark technic spectrum analyzerat the studio so I can see all
the different frequency bands aswell, so that gives you a
little bit of extra visual onwhat you think you're listening
to.
But I know that, like you canprobably get plugins that have
got a spectrum analyzer, so youcould, you could, run that up
(14:17):
with your mix as well and justtake a look visually and see
whether it correlates with whatyou're hearing yeah, most
definitely.
Marc Matthews (14:24):
Yeah, yeah, fantastic advice.
So, moving on from that, mynext sort of topic and we've
kind of touched on this alreadyreally is that classic sort of
fix it in the mastering or evenfix it in the mix which you hear
if you're coming from therecording realm.
But it's okay, they'll fix itin the mastering, which makes me
(14:44):
cringe whenever I say it.
Can you tell our audience a bitabout what it can and cannot do
?
Mike Marsh (14:51):
OK.
So yeah, let them fix it later.
Attitude just smacks ofsomebody not doing their job
properly at all.
I hate that.
And yeah, it gets used a lot,you know.
So a mastering engineer will doeverything he can to make your
track sound as good as somethingthat you know is out there
(15:12):
commercially.
But there are limitations, youknow, for there commercially,
but there are limitations, youknow, for the most part I try
not to be, I try not to beworking from stems.
So stems mastering is anotherthing that has become quite
popular in the last few years,which, as an explanation, is
basically somebody send you allthe different elements of their
(15:32):
mix for you to then call that upand do the mastering the minute
.
Anybody sends, wants to send mestems.
That is the classic example oflet them fix it at mastering.
It's basically why are yousending me the stems?
So I've got mix control.
If you're not actually happywith your mix, you've let me
take over what you should bedoing.
(15:52):
So I'm not a fan of stemsmastering.
I'll do it on a few minimalones, but you know, not 48 of
them please.
So the thing is, when we'remastering, for the most part
we're working with a stereo WAVfile.
So your left channel and yourright channel and you are
restricted.
You've not got individual fadercontrol over all of the
elements, you've only gotequalization control over the
(16:17):
general tone of the sound ofyour mix.
Having said that, you can do aheck of a lot.
You know you can transform amix just with eq, provided that
the mix balance is good and theseparation between all the
elements is not fighting forspace.
Because if it's fighting forspace and you try and eq
(16:40):
something, you're going to eqeverything else around what
you're fighting with.
So the key is to have a lot ofseparation between the elements
in your mix, particularly in thebottom end, like kicks, bass,
bass lines, all that kind ofstuff, because once that stuff
becomes a mess it's reallydifficult to home in at
(17:00):
mastering and tidy it up.
If, say, for example, you had avery bass heavy mix that was
very dumpy and lifeless sounding, then you get in with some some
mid range, some 3k, some 5k,get the snappiness back in the
sound, some mid-range, some 3k,some 5k, get the snappiness back
in the sound.
And maybe you're going to needsome high tops as well for, you
know, for those hats and the,just the air in the sound For
(17:23):
the most part that's what I findI'm concentrating on an awful
lot is the mid-range energy andthe high end clarity.
Most people normally nail thebass end, even if there's too
much of it.
I can get in there and enliven amix and make it sound energetic
without asking for a recall onthe mix.
You can just get in there anddo it with EQ, but it totally
(17:46):
relies on everything else in themix allowing you to do that.
Marc Matthews (17:51):
Yeah, what you mentioned there about stem
mastering was quite interestingbecause I've received stems and
done mastering but I'd neveractually thought of it, never
tweaked in my brain.
Actually, are they sending methis because they want me to
basically mix it for them?
Rich Bosic (18:07):
I never actually considered that.
Marc Matthews (18:09):
It did cross my mind until you mentioned it then
.
Now, going forward, I'm goingto ask a few more questions.
It's very rarely that I getSTEM masters, to be fair, but
it's an interesting one.
I never really thought of itthat way.
Maybe I should have done.
Mike Marsh (18:24):
Well, it always.
Any time I see an email come insaying, can we send you STEMs?
Straight away, I'm like OK, soyou're not happy with your mix,
right?
So then you get into this wholemixing and mastering thing, and
I know that's the modern wayforward, but I'm an old git
who's come from the old school30 plus years of doing it.
And you have mixing engineers,you have mastering engineers,
(18:47):
and everybody should be on topof their game doing their job
indeed, indeed, I totally agree.
Marc Matthews (18:52):
I think, specifically if you are an
artist, musician, and you andyou have outsourced mixing to
someone to do it for you andthey're inherently not
necessarily doing it to the bestof their ability, or maybe they
need to think about theirprocesses themselves, you'd like
to think that they would be,yeah, when you work on other
(19:12):
people's music.
Mike Marsh (19:13):
You have to be on top of your game the whole time.
When I'm working in the studio,uh, whatever genre of music it
is, whatever artist it is, Itreat it as if it's my music.
So it becomes a very personalcrusade.
It's not just me doing a jobfor somebody else and saying,
right, there's the invoice,thanks, bye.
Next it.
You know you've got to throwyourself into it and keep the
(19:35):
bar raised the whole timebecause, trust me, there'll be
plenty of.
You know you've got to throwyourself into it and keep the
bar raised the whole timebecause, trust me, there'll be
plenty of.
You know young whippersnapperscoming along who will take all
your clients if you, if you letthe side down and you know,
don't give it.
110 percent.
Marc Matthews (19:56):
Just to segue slightly or tangent slightly
here, as you mentioned genres,music, etc.
So you are.
Are there any genres that youwould not turn away but you'd be
like not too sure about thatone, or are you sort of open to
any sort of music being sentyour way?
Mike Marsh (20:07):
Yeah, anything In terms of my kind of background
and CV.
I've not worked on muchclassical music in my whole life
, to be fair.
A few, you know, maybe a fewmovie scores and stuff like that
.
But my kind of CV is so all overthe place and goes off on
(20:27):
tangents from rock to drum andbass to dance music to you know
it's every.
But I love that because I'm notpigeonholed in one genre and
effectively what I'm doing isthe same thing to a rock track
or a hip hop track or a drum andbass track.
You got to be mindful of thegenre a little bit, because
(20:47):
certain frequencies need to popa bit more for a certain genre.
But the bottom line when you'remastering is you're aiming to
achieve out of what you've beensent the same thing, which is,
you know, perfection as far asyou can get it and an engaging
listen, whether it be, you know,a screaming rock band or a sub
heavy drum and bass outfit.
Marc Matthews (21:10):
Interesting.
Just swinging it back to thestem mastering discussion we
were having just then.
Just swinging it back to thestem mastering discussion we
were having just then.
You mentioned an interestingbit which was about instruments
or sounds, let's say, fightingfor space, and this is a topic
that I've sort of spoken abouton the podcast before, in
particular with maybe more sortof up-and-coming mixers or
producers or artists mixingtheir own music.
(21:32):
Are there any tips or tricksthere?
Is there like one particularpiece of advice you would give
them, in particular with regardsto instruments and finding
space in a mix for eachinstrument?
Mike Marsh (21:45):
Yeah, probably a spectrum analyzer so that you
can actually you can also seewhat's going on.
Music is all about frequenciesand there are certain
instruments that will all be inthe same kind of area.
A classic case, for example, islike I may get a request on a on
(22:08):
a mastering job where somebodysays, oh, the vocal sounds a
little bit low, it's a littlebit shy in the mix, and then you
put the mix on and the guitarsor mid-range elements of the mix
are in your face already.
So you've got absolutely nochance of trying to dig that
vocal out because all the otherfrequencies in around that vocal
(22:31):
area are pushed too high.
So, yeah, a spectrum analyzeris going to give you a clear
view and any mixing music andworking on music, sometimes
visual aids are really important.
You need that kind of thatsecond set of ears, if you like,
and that's your eyes that giveyou that clarity on what you
(22:54):
think you're mixing.
You know it's not hard to getseparation between the elements,
but it's the more you throwinto a mix, the more likely
you're going to cluttereverything up.
You know, and one of theclassic lines with a mix and I
always hand it back to clientssaying just think hip hop.
Marc Matthews (23:15):
You might not be mixing hip hop, but just think
hip-hop, because it's sostripped down and less is more,
so when you've got less going onit often sounds bigger, fatter,
louder, all that yeah, I wasjust about to say that about you
preempted what I was going tosay with regards to the less is
more, and it's something thatI've learned throughout the
years of writing and producing,recording my own music, and it's
(23:38):
something I was going throughthe other day.
I was working on a song inparticular I'm gonna be
releasing soon and I was likeit's just not.
It's just not landing right,it's not landing the way I want.
So I listened to the referencetrack and then I listened I was
like, actually, in the introthey've just got, I can hear a
kick drum, I can hear a vocaland I can hear some bass, and
that was it, and I was like whyam I trying to throw all this
other stuff in there?
Yeah, um, and in fact, if Itake something out and I'm like,
(24:01):
okay, now it's just opened up,you know.
So I think it's.
It's something that I've,having spoken to or engaged with
the audience a lot for itthrough this podcast and I've
said this a few times and I'vesaid this independently as well
on one-to-ones it's like maybeyou just need to take some stuff
out.
Mike Marsh (24:16):
You have to go through that.
You have to go through that torealise it.
And until you've actually youknow that light bulb's come on
in your head.
It doesn't make sense.
How can less be more?
I need to throw everything andthe kitchen sink in it, don't I?
You know?
Yeah, but yeah.
Marc Matthews (24:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally agree.
I totally agree.
I was listening to, uh, some ofthe songs I put up a few years
ago.
And I'm listening, I'm not likewhy?
Why have I made thosesoundtracks?
Why is that in there?
And and then I listen to thestuff I've got now and I'm like,
okay, I can see why, I can seewhy it's.
Then you've got to go throughthat learning process.
Yeah, it's called experience.
Yeah, most definitely, this isan interesting one, and I this
is again I do regularly go offand say engines, and I've had
other mastering engineers on theshow and I've and in particular
(24:59):
I can't remember theconversation I had, but they put
forward an interesting pointwhich was to not necessarily
learn the art of mastery, but atleast have an awareness of
what's involved and maybe getsome experience if you can, and
and then work your way backwards.
So let's say you're a mixengineer and then maybe spend
some time in the realm ofmastering so you know what you
(25:22):
are submitting and what'spotentially going to happen to
it.
Would you say that's a goodsort of plan or pathway to
follow?
Mike Marsh (25:29):
definitely because you're educating yourself, uh,
on the wider process of puttingmusic out, rather than just, you
know, concentrating on what youdo.
You don't have to get yourhands on and do it, but just an
awareness thing is really good.
I've been doing a few workshopswith some of the students at
(25:50):
Exeter College who were on themusic technology and production
course like my son was back inthe day and one of the things I
say to them primarily they'reall into recording is yeah, get
a handle on what mastering isand what you can do and what you
can't do, you know, so that youwill then avoid yourself saying
(26:12):
, ah, they can fix that in themastering, Because if you're
aware of the restrictions,you're going to hopefully
deliver a much better pre-mixproduct than you would do if you
just went.
Well, I can't do any more now,I'm burnt out on it.
I'll let somebody else takeover.
Marc Matthews (26:33):
Yeah, I would agree, and I was quite lucky
when I was doing way back when,when I was doing my studies and
I made the made the choice, Iwas like you know what, for this
work experience, I'm going togo spend time with a mastering
engineer.
And I did that and it just justthat week I spent there.
It opened my eyes to thinkingokay, now when I am mixing or
I'm creating something, I cansee where it's eventually going
(26:56):
to go before it's then going tobe out on digital platforms,
whatever release is going to gothrough.
Um, but what I I mean in thesame breath, I do recall as well
not enough time was spentfocusing on it, I found.
I mean that this was a whileback, so it could well have
changed now, and I can't make asweeping statement on all
courses, but I do remember withmine it was only a fraction, a
(27:16):
tiny fraction, of the actualcourse itself, uh, where they
touched on mastering yeah,that's a shame because, um,
mastering is something whichactually takes a while to get
get a grip of it and, um, themain reason of that is you need
to be.
Mike Marsh (27:32):
You need to be listening to lots and lots and
lots of different mixes fromdifferent studios to educate
yourself in your head about whatsounds good and bad.
Um, when I first started, uh,vinyl was the the biggest
selling format.
So, uh, not only did I have tolearn how to operate the disc,
cutting lathe, you're alsofinding your feet and your own
(27:55):
confidence in what stuff soundslike what's good.
What should I do to this?
You know, you're it's thatconfidence, experience thing,
and I reckon I reckon itprobably is a good two to three
years of being inundated withlots of different mixes from
lots of different places beforeyou feel comfortable to go.
Marc Matthews (28:15):
Okay, I can go straight to that, and and you're
in that position where youinstantly know what to do yeah,
and I think also with thatexperience you also get the the
knowledge and experience againto use the same word twice to
know when actually I probablyprobably don't need to do a
great deal in this exactly.
Mike Marsh (28:33):
Yeah, I'm not going to do something for the sake of
doing it, if that makes sense,yeah, yeah and again, that comes
with experience too, becausesometimes as a new guy you're
going to go well, I better dosomething.
You know, otherwise they'regoing to think I'm just sitting
around doing nothing.
But that is a magic moment whenyou get that mix that is
already pretty much nailed it,um, you don't need to be looking
(28:55):
for things to fix, you know.
Uh, it's very rare that ithappens, but and I've still got
my notebooks going back to 1988,so I can, I can do you like a
total recall on analog notebooks.
That's how geeky it is, um, butit's very rare.
I've written in my notebookflat, and as in flat I mean not
(29:16):
EQing anything, you know.
Marc Matthews (29:20):
Wow, that's quite a list.
I was going to give away my agethen.
Well, I will, but I would havebeen two.
Mike Marsh (29:26):
Okay, well, I'm way older than you, so it doesn't
matter.
Marc Matthews (29:31):
Yeah, amazing.
This kind of moves on nicely tomy next topic, and this is all
around.
Should the mixing and masteringengineer be the same person?
So this is interesting.
This goes back to what youmentioned earlier about the sort
of the amateur mixers, andwe've got producers and a lot of
people doing everythingthemselves.
So Many independent artistshandle mixing and mastering.
(29:55):
What are the pros, if any, andwhat are the cons of that
particular workflow, would yousay?
Mike Marsh (30:02):
OK.
Well, the pros and the cons canalmost be summarised in one
sentence.
Really, a mastering engineer orsomebody else working on your
music is the first time anotherset of ears outside of your
environment has heard whatyou're doing when you're, when
you're performing, mixing,recording and then trying to
(30:24):
master all of it yourself, you,you lose complete perspective on
what sounds good anymore, andI've worked with a lot of
artists who've tried itthemselves and they just end up
chasing their tail, going roundand round in circles because
they don't know anymore.
And I admire people who give ita go.
But right now I work with a lotof artists who are quite
(30:48):
capable of recording their ownstuff and mixing their own stuff
and probably mastering theirown stuff if I'm honest, and
probably mastering their ownstuff if I'm honest.
But they still send it to mebecause I'm that second set of
ears outside of their comfortzone, with no.
The other thing is you know,when you're working on something
so closely, you've got thiskind of inbuilt kind of
(31:09):
attachment to the project,whereas if I hear it, you know I
don't know anything that wentinto it.
I don't know any of theproblems.
I don't know any of theproblems I don't know any of the
fallouts that have gone onalong the way.
I'm completely independentsonically, so that's a good
thing about a mastering engineer, is?
It's a new set of ears fresh tothe table.
Marc Matthews (31:30):
Yeah, what are your thoughts and perspectives
on the sort of AI masteringlandscape?
Mike Marsh (31:37):
I'm very aware it's out there and of course, in a
way, it's quite hurtful becauseI earn a living by doing it
myself and doing it by ear.
But you know, I'm very awareit's out there.
I mean, there was Lando I thinkwas one of the very first ones
that came up and I've heard it'svery mix dependent actually.
So I've heard clients have sentme references of how they got
(32:01):
it done on Landy, you know.
So I've heard good things andI've heard bad things and I
think the bottom line is AI andalgorithms and all of that are
still never going to be quite asgood as the human is,
especially when you've got aslightly ropey mix.
If your mix is pretty good andthe balance is right and the EQs
(32:23):
totally are good, then anonline AI mastering thing is
going to have a fairly goodcrack, to be fair.
But if you've got problems orfrequency issues or stuff like
that, then it's really going tostruggle.
Marc Matthews (32:37):
Yeah, and you also don't have that sort of
feedback loop either, do you?
You don't have thatrelationship, that rapport with
the mastering engineer as well,were they?
Mike Marsh (32:44):
About what's good or bad.
Marc Matthews (32:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
And that feedback and said,okay, well, I've done this this
time, so next time you'reworking on this particular sort
of style, the genre of music,maybe consider doing this in
your mix, that way, exactly themastering.
I'm not going to have to makesuch um, not drastic, but such
changes in that particular.
In that particular maybe it'scompression or or eq, for
(33:06):
example.
So you're not, you don't getthat feedback loop.
And also, sometimes, I guess aswell, you, you're going to make
create, are you going to makecreative decisions you might do
if you've got that relationshipwith the artist and saying, okay
, well, maybe we'll do thisbecause it's slightly outside
the box in terms of what wewould usually do with the
conventional master, but you,let's say that that conversation
you're never going to get withai.
That's the thing I mean.
(33:26):
Maybe absolutely.
Mike Marsh (33:27):
Yeah, it is.
But yeah, right now, and thewhole of my career is has been
based on on client interaction.
Uh, it's it.
Back in the, I used to getattended sessions all the time,
so you used to have people comework with you.
Often they just came along forthe laugh, came along for the
ride, but nowadays a lot morework is remote, but you still
(33:49):
have either on the phone or aZoom call or just even on an
email.
I still get established artistsasking for feedback on what I
thought about the mixes and whatthey might be able to do to
improve.
And because I've now, I guess,been doing it for so long, I
(34:10):
feel like I'm quantified to saywhat I think rather than, like
you know, sweeten up somethingthat actually was a load of crap
.
But I'm just going to not saythat because it might hurt their
feelings.
Now I'll hurt your feelings ifit's warranted but in a nice way
.
Rich Bosic (34:26):
Do you know what I?
Mike Marsh (34:26):
mean.
Marc Matthews (34:27):
It's so yeah.
Mike Marsh (34:28):
So, and trust me, we're all learning the whole
time.
You know I'm sat here as avintage old age, not an old age
pensioner.
Yeah, I still feel like ateenager.
I'm sat here as a vintage oldage, not an old age pensioner,
yet I still feel like a teenagerbut I still don't feel like I
know it all.
So every day at work is a brandnew day, a new job.
Marc Matthews (34:46):
100%, I totally agree with that.
I routinely learn something newevery day, and I often learn
things from the listeners aswell.
They send feedback or responsesto something I've said or
what's been said on the podcast,and I that's.
That's good to me.
Rich Bosic (34:59):
So yeah, which is amazing.
Marc Matthews (35:01):
Uh, I realize that, mike, we're coming towards
the end of our discussion here,so there's one, one quick
question I want to throw yourway.
Is somebody listening to thishas been inspired and they want
to sort of get their teeth intomastering?
Where would you say they shouldstart?
Mike Marsh (35:16):
uh, I guess it depends on age.
But if you're, if you'recollege, school, school, college
age, then I reckon, um, yourlocal kind of um, uni or tech
college, that might offer arecording and a mastering course
.
Um, as a starting point, justto get your head around the
technical side, there's a lot of, there's a lot of kind of
(35:36):
electronics and technical stuffthat's handy to know before you
even start playing around with adigital workstation or whatever
.
So if you're a young person,you know, still in education,
that would be a good route.
It's really hard from then onto get your foot in the door as
a tea boy, tea girl at amastering studio, because times
(35:58):
have changed, big studios havekind of all disappeared.
It's very hard for for a personinterested in wanting to be a
mastering engineer to actuallyget in and sit on sessions.
It really is so, but certainly Iwould say a college route if
you, you know, if you're, uh, ifyou're still in education, that
(36:20):
would be a good start.
Um and um, you know, if you'reinto music at that young age, no
doubt you're probably alreadymaking music as well.
Um, so yeah, getting gettingyour head around, maybe logic or
something like that, and andand teaching yourself how you
might go about making music.
Um is also a great start yeah,fantastic, excellent stuff, mike
(36:45):
.
Marc Matthews (36:45):
Thank you very much.
Um, it's been a pleasurechatting with you and, as I say,
it's always a pleasure chattingwith someone from the local
area, which doesn't happen often, aside from if the audience
listening.
They'll know tim, who's been onthe podcast a few times and he
lives in watch it, so I thinkthat is the closest.
If my memory of 193 episodes go, I think you might be the
closest.
Actually you might be theclosest person now to me where
(37:05):
I'm based who's been on thepodcast, which is amazing and it
was so cool that I was randomlygoing for I say randomly, I go
for a run every week, or but Iwas listening to master your mix
and then listening to yourepisode and I was like what?
I was just around the cornerfrom me, yeah, which was
fantastic.
So, um, for the audiencelistening, maybe, uh could you
share where they can find outmore about you and, uh, what,
(37:29):
what you're doing, what you'reup to, or maybe even they want
to work with you as well.
Mike Marsh (37:34):
Yeah, sure.
So I guess the website is agood place to start, which is at
wwwmikemarshmasteringcouk, theemail address you can find from
the website as well.
I'm on the socials Facebook andInsta.
I'm not kind of like on it 24-7.
(37:58):
I dip in and out, but I havegot a Facebook profile and I
have got an Instagram profileMike Marsh Mastering would be
your search word there.
So, yeah, and email isobviously the best place to get
in touch initially.
But, yeah, come and say hi orcome and check out the profiles
and see what we're up to.
Marc Matthews (38:19):
Fantastic.
I'll put links in the episodeaudience listening, so you can
find all of that there.
Mike, it's been an absolutepleasure and I will catch up
with you soon and enjoy the restof the sun as well.
Mike Marsh (38:33):
We should probably end the podcast by saying see
you on the beach.
Marc Matthews (38:37):
Yes, you know what we should do an episode on
the beach.
Rich Bosic (38:41):
I'll tell you what I'd be well up for that.
Marc Matthews (38:43):
I'll be there.
Fantastic, alright.
Cheers, mike, I'll catch upwith you soon.
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