June 30, 2024 • 43 mins
In this episode of the Muslim Life Hackers Podcast, host interviews Almir Colan, an expert in Islamic economics and finance. They discuss the concept of risk-taking in life and delve into the principles of the Islamic economy. Almir explains the issues with riba (interest) and its negative impact on society and economies, contrasting it with the ethical and productive nature of wealth creation in Islam. They explore the importance of initiative and being forerunners in various aspects of life.
Timestamps:
01:41 Understanding Islamic Economics
02:34 The Impact of Riba on Society
03:06 Riba and Historical Perspectives
07:45 The Riba Mentality
11:24 Capitalism and Its Flaws
15:10 Islamic Solutions to Economic Issues
29:38 The Importance of Initiative
36:53 Life Hacks and Book Recommendations
About Almir Colan:
Almir Colan teaches and advises on Islamic finance, economy and management. He is the founder of Muslim Money Matters, an adviser to a number of institutions that provide Islamic finance, and a member of a working group at AAOIFI. Previously, Almir was a consultant lecturer for the Master of Islamic Banking and Finance Course at La Trobe University.
Connect with Almir Colan:
Resources Mentioned:
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Connect with Mifrah Mahroof:
🏖️ This episode is sponsored by Sisters Explore, a company I founded to offer guided small-group travel for Muslim women to connect, explore, and enjoy faith-centered journeys. Learn more at http://www.sisters-explore.com
Disclaimer: Some links in this description are affiliate links.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Almir Colan (00:00):
Everything in life worth doing, takes risk.
(00:03):
to get anywhere, you need toembrace that risk.
And so, more you do that, youdevelop this capacity to deal
with the risk
Mifrah Mahroof (00:13):
As-salamu alaykum and welcome to the
Muslim Life Hackers podcast.
I'm your host Mifrah Mahroof andthis is the podcast where we get
better every day.
Through conversations withexperts, leaders, and inspiring
individuals.
We're going to give youactionable insights to help you
win in this life and the next.
So if you're ready to level upin every area of your life and
(00:33):
you committed to living withexcellence for the sake of your
Lord.
You're in the right place.
Get ready for insights,inspiration, and a whole lot of
life hacks.
This is a Muslim Life Hackerspodcast.
Let's dive in.
Asalamu Alaikum, and welcome tothe show.
Almir Colan (00:49):
Wa'alaikum Salam, thank you for inviting me.
Mifrah Mahroof (00:52):
Well, thank you so much for coming on.
I know that when it comes to thewhole topic of Islamic on
economy, MashaAllah, you have awealth of knowledge in that.
So I'm looking forward tolearning more and exposing
myself to these new ideas thatyou have.
So first of all, for those whodon't know, would you be able to
introduce yourself?
Almir Colan (01:09):
My name is Almir Colan and for last, maybe decade
or two, I've been researchingand studying Islamic economic
and finance.
It's one of those areas that isvery exciting.
It's a new in the way that weinstitutionalize some of these
principles in today, day andage, but it's principles are go
(01:30):
to the early days of Islam, andI think today they are getting a
lot of attention because of whatwe are experiencing in our
economy these days.
Mifrah Mahroof (01:38):
What do you mean by what we are experiencing in
the economic
Almir Colan (01:41):
these days?
I think a lot of people find ita little bit that they are not
convinced direction or set uparchitecture for our economy
that it might not universallywork.
Or there might be someprinciples, that people are not
happy.
I remember during the globalfinancial crisis, there was an
Occupy Wall Street movement, andthere was this lady that used to
(02:03):
carry the sign, Let's Bank theMuslim Way.
And I think it reflects thesituation that people think that
what we have created is a littlebit inhuman, the way that we
bank, the way that we do thefinance.
There is a bit more demand formore fair and balanced way of
doing things that is a bit more,stable and not so much prone to
(02:27):
these turbulences.
A bit more ethical, a bit morehuman than what we are seeing
around ourselves.
Mifrah Mahroof (02:34):
Okay.
So, when we take a step back andwhen we look at the whole
economy right now, we see thatit's interest and riba is
actually a very big part of it.
And so I guess like as Muslims,we know that it's prohibited,
but you know, when we have thisconversation with our non Muslim
friends, they'll be like, Oh,what's the big deal?
You're just getting some moneyand you're paying a little bit
(02:54):
extra.
But I wanted to take a step backand understand on a wider scale,
like what is the effect interestriba is having on us and on our
societies and economy as a
Almir Colan (03:06):
whole Riba is an interesting phenomenon.
Even just the translating theword Riba, it's very difficult.
It's a complex phenomenon.
And We usually recognize it incommercial transactions such as
loans, when you are basicallytransacting, getting some money,
paying some money more.
And if you go from thebeginning, people used to find
(03:29):
earning from interest by sellingmoney, making money from money
is a very unnatural way.
Philosophers are like Aristotleused to talk about that this is
most unnatural way to makemoney.
In every religion you wouldfind, like Christianity, let's
say Judaism, you would find thatJesus, for example, when he
would enter a temple where moneychanger used to change shekels,
(03:52):
which is silver, for silver andcharge extra that he threw them
out from the temple.
In Talmud, also you havereferences, and they mention the
word ribit, which is verysimilar to riba.
And again, Quran, Bible, otherrevelations, they all talk about
this idea that charging peopleextra for giving them money is
(04:15):
something that is against thelaw of God.
And so, naturally people alwayshad this idea in their mind.
Even the Shakespeare wrote abook, Merchant of Venice, where
he's talking about money lender.
And he reflected the society,how people saw these people.
They saw them as somebody who islike a parasite, leeching.
And he coined the phrase,extracting the pound of flesh.
(04:38):
This is how they called thesebankers of his time.
Because they were universallydisliked for these practices.
And so, universally people wouldthink about Riba, that is a way
of making money withoutproviding counter value, without
really engaging yourself inproductive economic purposes.
And that frame translates to howyou then construct economy.
(05:02):
Once you have a way for somebodyto make money from just moving
money around, then all of yoursetup reflects that lazy way of
making money.
We now have institutions whereyou make more money by giving
loans, credit cards, then bydoing real things.
So, your banker who is justsitting in the office doing
(05:24):
nothing, makes more money thanthe baker, the mechanic, person
who makes the food.
And, so we intuitively startthinking that the way that we
incentivize this profession maybe not be the most, in line with
what is the best for humaninterest.
In Islam, therefore, theobjective is to connect the
(05:46):
money with the real productivepurposes.
So that as Imam Ghazali say, ifyou start making money from
money, then incentives will bealways to make money easy way.
But for human progress, you needto make money from engaging and
taking risk to make somethingthat benefits people.
Maybe on small sort ofindividual level, somebody might
(06:08):
say, I just took a loan to dothis.
It doesn't matter.
But once you start building thesystem where this is the way
that money moves around, then weopen the door to what we see,
possibility to exploit,possibility to unjustly take
other people's wealth.
And that continues, and eventoday, for instance, if you look
(06:31):
at how we manage inflation, it'sbasically just by increasing
interest rates, which means thatwe take more and more money from
people who had loans originatedsome time ago.
But because we need to managenow inflation, we say this
teacher who is already paying 25percent of their salary for the
mortgage, will pay another 10percent because that's an easy
(06:52):
tool to extract the wealth frompeople.
And there are many examples,where this brings about harm,
brings about destruction,especially when it comes to the
compounded interest.
Many of the countries that getinto these loans, they keep
growing.
We have the experience with theshark loans.
In Islam, we look at these kindsof activities as very predatory
(07:15):
activities.
And Islam is trying to prevent,like all the other religions, to
prevent this kind ofexploitation of the people.
Mifrah Mahroof (07:24):
Hmm.
I see.
You know, it's interesting howyou mentioned, like in today's
time, there's a lot of moneythat's made from loans, credit
cards.
And even when you start readinglike the mainstream finance
books, they say, the rich peoplemake money by moving money and
like doing all these kind oflike lazy ways of earning money.
And that's encouraged as well.
(07:45):
I guess like what I'm hearingthat Islam incentivize actual
productive work, rather thanmaking money the lazy way, which
actually leads me to ask thenext question about the whole
idea of riba mentality.
So that exists as a result ofthis world that we're living in
this riba mentality.
(08:05):
Can you elaborate more on thatand why
Almir Colan (08:07):
that is problematic?
So once people get used tomaking money without really
risking anything, they getaccustomed.
That everything is safe andprofit is guaranteed.
Then they are less likely toengage in something where they
might risk something, wherethere might be a question,
uncertainty whether it will bedelivered or not.
(08:27):
See, if you are a farmer and youput the seeds, you don't know
what will happen.
Maybe there won't be rain, maybesomething will happen.
Then, you have to work, you haveto depend on other people, and,
it's something that is a realthing.
So what starts happening withthese people once they got used
to this way of, what I callsynthetic way of making money,
which is not connected withreality of economy, more and
(08:49):
more, this starts to penetrateand infects the rest of the
economy.
Because now, even when you arein the real economy, you are not
really trying to make money frommaking the better products.
You are very accustomed tomaking money or somebody who is
(09:10):
giving you money.
They want money, profitguaranteed.
So you also want to create asystem where you are not so much
concerned how you make money.
As long as you do make themoney.
And so, what people start doing,let's say you are creating the
food, you will see more and morepeople, in order to satisfy this
Riba loans that they have, theywill start creating more
(09:31):
synthetic food, more lab food.
You buy yogurt, there won't beyogurt in that, it will be just
some chemicals.
You buy bread, you buy whatever.
There is no real food in that.
And so now you have totallysynthetic product that looks
real, but it's designed toextract the maximum wealth from
the people.
So you are not anymore growingwholesome food, pure food,
(09:53):
something that is good forpeople.
You're just growing food that isgood for profit making,
maximizing the profit.
And why is that?
Because you are really lazy toengage in real things.
You are lazy to wait for realprofit, real growth of what
you're doing.
And so this kind of way ofsynthetic way, lazy way of
(10:14):
making money or creating value,it's become synthetic from both
sides.
And so at the end of the day,this feeds in the capitalist
framework.
which is all about numericgrowth, that we celebrate
numeric growth, we talk aboutnumeric growth.
When I get a job, I only thinkabout how much I'm going to be,
(10:35):
package I'm receiving.
And so we reduce the economy tojust the numbers.
And the human there is totallydehumanized.
We don't care about him as aconsumer, as a worker, nothing.
He's just there to deliver, onthis endless, tale of making
more profit and chasing someillusion where he will spend,
(10:56):
that profit on.
And this then becomes a verynegative cycle in our life.
Mifrah Mahroof (11:02):
Yeah, starting from interest and then the
mentality that it brings about.
And then as a result, theconsumer, us, we start have
synthetic foods out there forexample, and then you have
exploitation of humans indifferent countries.
Then you have the environmenteffect that it also has, because
at that point it's all aboutmoney.
(11:24):
Would you say that is the issuewith capitalism?
That it's just that, or wasthere more
Almir Colan (11:31):
to earn.
Well, we know that ProphetSallallahu Alaihi Wasallam told
us that closer to the end ofdays, even if you don't engage
yourself in the interest, thedust of Riba will touch you.
And so, you have to askyourself, where is this dust
coming from?
So, this dust is on your hands,on the products, when you open
(11:52):
the fridge, when you look atthose products, everything is
touched by that.
From the moment we startinvesting and how we are
investing in these things, tothe moment we consume.
There is a dust, even if you arenot directly, there is
indirectly affecting the wholeof our system.
Mifrah Mahroof (12:09):
About capitalism, is that the main
problem?
Because like myself, evengrowing up here in the West,
you've always hear things likecapitalism is great because you
put in value and you get moneyfrom that value.
So then what is the issue withthat?
Almir Colan (12:23):
So, this is connected with the engine of
capitalism, now, what is thecapitalism?
I mean, you could have alectures on capitalism, but,
Capitalism is simply freedom.
Let's call it that way.
It's not exactly, but it'sadvertised as you are free to
engage.
It's incentivize your desire toearn, to own, to put yourself,
(12:45):
be rewarded for hard work.
And that is true.
That is definitely part of thecapitalism.
But capitalism that is notcentered on some values will
also incentivize the worst ofthe human behavior.
And so if I can exploit, if Ican do something that, benefits
(13:05):
me, extract the wealth time,from the people, I will do that.
And so, without values, thisengine that is free to do
whatever it wants, you can dogreat things when you are free,
but you can also create enormousharm.
And once you concentrate so muchpower and money in few hands,
(13:28):
and that person is not driven byany ethics, any values, any
norms.
That is a very powerful machinethat can crush so many people.
And the people don't have easyway to resist, this powerful
machine.
That's why you see this massivecorporation, the way that they
(13:48):
extract the time from people,the way that they calculate to
the second what you are doingand how much to pay you, just
enough to survive and where youcan't have enough just to switch
even the job.
They perfect this, game ofincentives and reward just to
keep you where they want youbecause they're dealing with a
large number of people.
(14:09):
They're dealing with a largesystem and on the scale they
know how get to you.
How to maximally extract whatthey want from you.
And how to keep you busy withthe products, with the illusion,
with spending to get theirproducts.
And so, at the end of the day,the whole lifestyle that is
constructed for maximal controlof you.
(14:30):
Not in the typical way, butmaximal control in consumer
society that is broken andautomized in the individuals who
really cannot resist and largecorporations and their
incentives that they deploy.
This is of course much differentthan in socialism where they
coerce you into these kinds ofthings, but without values,
(14:52):
freedom can be very dangerousthing.
Mifrah Mahroof (14:55):
Yeah, true.
Because then you don't know,what it's going to end up as how
and how it looks like.
I've a few ways to go about withmy next question, but since you
mentioned it, you were saying,the whole system keeps you busy
and it's designed in a way thatyou can't get out of it.
So I guess my question is as aMuslim, as a practicing Muslim,
(15:15):
is there a way that, there's adifferent way we can see this?
is there an alternative that wecan learn about, that there's a
solution in our deen for this?
Almir Colan (15:24):
It's a very deep question that goes to the root
of who we are as a humans.
Sometimes I think about it whenI look at our life as if there
are layers.
There are layers of reality, andsometimes person look at
neighbor, they got a nice car,nice house, nice something,
grass is always green there, andperson now desires all of these
(15:47):
things.
And sometimes they say, well, mylife is like this.
They always look at thesedeficiencies that they might be
missing in life.
The Prophet, Sallallahu AlaihiWasallam, told us that when you
see somebody whose material isdoing better than you, to be
really content and not to be ina state where you are ungrateful
and unhappy, look at the personwho has less than you, but what
(16:10):
is this life is teaching us?
It's opposite.
It's always look at somebody whois better than you.
So we are in a constant,unsatisfied state.
You have this car, but that onegot another bigger car.
Okay, you have iPhone 13, buthe's got 14, you got 14, he's
got 15 now, 16.
We are always in perpetual stateof wanting to buy something, and
(16:33):
as soon as we get that, weimmediately don't want it
anymore.
We want another next thing.
So you have this by design.
Unsatisfied, ungrateful, neverstopping to reflect, to be
content, to enjoy, but alwayshungry for more.
And this is something in thehuman, when you start creating
(16:55):
this setup, that you can neversatisfied.
The Prophet, Sallallahu AlaihiWasallam, said that if son of
Adam were to have a mountain ofgold of Uhud, he wants to have
another one, and another one,and so on.
He said, what will satisfy him?
is the dust of his grave.
And so this goes back to ourgrandfather in paradise, who had
(17:15):
everything except little.
But the devil approached andsaid, look, you really need this
last piece, and then you will befully satisfied like angels and
so on.
So this trick, this exploitationof insecurity or scarcity that
we have is the game.
And so shaitan is scaring uswith poverty.
And so what the game is, justconsume, buy more, buy more.
(17:38):
There is another thing, anotherthing, another thing to have, to
be mindful, to consume, to get,to work for.
And while we are in thatperpetual state of fear and
consumption and buying andgrabbing and taking, he takes
all of our time.
And we don't realize that we arenot even happy.
This is not even working for us.
We don't see our children.
(17:59):
We don't have relations.
We lose our health.
It's time.
And so, by the time we realizethat time is wasted, life is
wasted.
And even when I get it, there isno utility of it.
By the time you go through that,then we realize the depth.
And we said that, this wasalways the trick.
Always make you wanting more.
And so, unfortunately, this issomething that, sooner we
(18:22):
realize, some of these valuesIslamic, not just being
grateful, content, but alsoother invisible impacts on
wealth, like blessings ofwealth, Barakah.
There are some of theseintangible Layers that are
there, that if there is aBarakah, it will behave
differently your wealth.
(18:43):
The things you buy with Barakahwill have different effect, they
will have Barakah.
So person today,
Mifrah Mahroof (18:48):
What do you mean
Almir Colan (18:49):
so the Barakah?
is special divine blessing.
It's something that when you putit inside of something, that
something becomes more.
And when it is not present,
Mifrah Mahroof (18:59):
Mm
Almir Colan (19:00):
you feel something is missing, and so you
sometimes, look at the Barakahin your time.
Sometimes, in one day, you do somuch.
You are very productive,organized, you don't waste your
time, and you say, I haveBarakah.
Like, this day was like a week,like deep, deep work.
Mifrah Mahroof (19:20):
hmm.
Almir Colan (19:20):
Some days, week pass, you have done nothing.
So no barakah.
Similar, you earn something andyou go to the shop and I buy a
few items, there is no money.
I don't know where it went.
And so, with your time, withyour actions, we want to have
this blessing.
This is a special boost insidethe things that gives you more
(19:42):
than what numerically it lookslike.
That is why you see people whoare very, very rich, but
nothing, they have everything,everything from this life.
That's why in paradise, Adam hadeverything.
Every single thing, but still hewants something.
So as a human, there is alwaysthat, in reality, what, what,
(20:03):
what is missing is the heart.
Here is the point is the heartthat connects itself to the
creator of everything, or itstarts to link itself to
material things.
And, once you start linkingyourself to the material things,
then person is happy to cheat,to do whatever, does not care,
how they get it, is it in theright way, wrong way, so
(20:27):
spending or making money, itbecome just a game, just to get
that material.
And so, that craving formaterial then preoccupies the
heart, and this is somethingthat can never fills the heart,
and that's why the ProphetSallallahu Alaihi Wasallam said,
You have one mountain, you wantanother one, and another one.
In reality, you are justincreasing your appetite.
What will fill it up is when youdie, when you realize that this
(20:48):
is just a dust.
What is this all things?
It's a metal, cement, steel.
What are we accumulating?
Dirt from the land.
What was all of these thingsabout?
What is it doing?
So this is where having thatperception, having that
understanding, that you are hereto purify your heart, purify
(21:09):
your soul, to tie yourself withAllah subhanahu wa ta'ala, and
not to the other things.
And that is how you free yourheart from these fears.
Once you remove these links fromyour heart to these other
things, material things.
And so, yes, have it in yourhand as much as you can.
(21:29):
Get without sacrificing all ofyour time, but understand that
it should stay in the hand, notin the heart.
Mifrah Mahroof (21:36):
That's a very profound point.
So it seems like when you getstuck in the game, then you're
just on a perpetual cycle, butthe way to actually get out of
that game or that they say thatwhole rat race is to take a step
back and connect your heart withAllah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala and
purify your heart and find waysto have more blessings in your
(21:57):
wealth as well.
So that's a very good point thatwe can really think about more.
Another thing that I was reallyinterested to, actually, expose
myself to these new ideas isthat we spoke earlier about the
economy.
And I also want to know, likehow would the Islamic economy,
like how is the Islamic economydifferent to that?
I know that you mentioned thatIslam rewards, productive work.
(22:20):
But is there more to it?
Like, what's the whole aim thatmakes it different and more just
like you were saying earlier?
Almir Colan (22:26):
So, Islamic economy would work a little bit
differently.
So, number one, when it comes toIslamic economy, like any other
economy, Wealth creation iscritical.
So sometimes we don't often talkabout it, but when you think
about companions like Uthman,for example, helping Muslim
community of Medina in the earlydays, whether by buying the
(22:49):
wealth ruma, which he gives asendowment to the community, or
he's giving away enormous amountof caravans of food and supplies
for people, we often like toquote these instances when it
comes to charity event toencourage people to give, like
Uthman or any other companion.
(23:11):
But we should also reflect that,how did he make this wealth?
Because companions came frommecca to Medina as refugees,
they were running away, theywere economically boycotted,
they are looking for the home,and so, how come within a few
years, suddenly you have peoplewho are giving gold, and
resources, which are now maybein billions of dollars, some of
(23:33):
these things.
So, When he was in Medina, wasUthman just not thinking about
his business or was he justwaking up one day and thinking,
okay, let me just rock up to themarket and maybe something
happens, or maybe he had a bitmore, strategic way of thinking
about these issues, And that'swhy we see in the, in the Imam
Bukhari's book about businesstransaction, you know,
(23:55):
Abdulrahman Ibn Nawf, evenpeople wanted to give him
wealth, he refused it because hewanted to go to market and start
his own business.
So we see that entrepreneurial,that initiative mindset of the
early companions, who evenduring the time of the Prophet,
Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, theywere in the markets doing
business, trade, and so on.
(24:16):
So, Wealth creation is a veryimportant part.
Wealth creation is significantbecause this is what solves the
problem of people.
Once you have a market wherethings are done, that means
people can buy and sellproducts.
These are the products, liketoday's economy, that any
economy is producing.
(24:36):
This is what helps you buy thislaptop so we can talk,
microphone, lights, car,internet.
So your economy, your market, issolving for your needs.
Because business people andother investors, they are
producing what you need.
So the best way to solve theproblems is by, in this way,
(24:58):
productive way.
Now the second thing whathappens is that people get the
jobs.
So they are able to, not just,help you by producing for you,
but they're able to, earn theincome and, be self sufficient,
feed their own family and so on.
And then, What happens as aresult of the work and
production is that you generatea surplus.
(25:19):
So this surplus is veryimportant for a second part of
economy, which is that from ourIslamic perspective we are very
generous and we like to give asa charity, whether it's Zakat,
Sadaqah, leave the Waqf or thewill to the other
Mifrah Mahroof (25:35):
Hmm
Almir Colan (25:37):
and so this creates a protective system where the
money circulates and those whocannot participate in the market
or help themselves, they getopportunity to get back into the
market because now you aresupporting it.
And this brings people much morecloser together when they see,
uh, Wealthy people who aregenerous, and we have example of
(25:59):
this in Islamic society wherethe companions used to go to
Prophet Sallallahu AlaihiWasallam, and they would say,
Oh, Messenger of Allah, theserich people overtake us.
And so they would look at themand how they spending wealth on
society as a something by whichthey overtake them in the good,
and Righteous Deeds, unliketoday where it is not
(26:22):
necessarily that you look at therich people, for example, of how
to be charitable, usually thosewho are the least wealthy, they
are the most charitable, and thethird is, a third piece of that
equation, is that you producewealth in an ethical way, you
are not trying to make wealthfrom the things that have
detrimental impact on society,like maybe gambling or some
(26:46):
asset classes or things that arereally, harmful for the society.
So, from the way the wealthcirculates, from the way that
you protect your wealth, to theway you create your wealth,
Islamic economy has a systemthat incentivize wealth
creation, but in an ethical way,and by producing something that
(27:07):
benefits the people.
So this is a model that Iactually developed called
Shepard's Model that summarizesthe basic bits and pieces, and
when we compare it to any othermodel, we can see by its ethics
and prohibitions, how it differsfrom other systems, by the way
it regulates distribution andcirculation of the wealth, by
(27:28):
the way it incentivizes thecreation of the wealth.
And so we can easily see that,this is more humane, more
balance way of living.
And of course, it is supportingIslamic way of life, which
centers around the family,around the community.
It's not trying just to exploit,it takes into consideration your
(27:49):
environment, differentstakeholders.
The purpose is not just to makemoney, it's to create Islamic
lifestyle.
That really is a, it's got abalance.
So the wealth would not be justthe numeric wealth.
Wealth would be time to spend itwith the people that you love,
to be good, to be beneficial.
So success would not just be inthis life, but in the next life.
(28:10):
it's much more than justindividualistic, consumer based,
desire driven, fear driven, asyou call it, rat race.
It's more enjoyable with otherpeople, and it brings you to be
more human, and less afraid, butmore connected to Allah
subhanahu wa ta'ala, and moreinterdependent with other
(28:31):
people.
So you feel good about living,You are not as scared and you
are really find so much joy inyour life.
Mifrah Mahroof (28:39):
Yes, there's so much justice in the Islamic
model and how it actuallysupports human flourishing and
advancing, human beings.
And it's just, when you seethat, when you actually read
about that and then when you seewhat's happening in today's time
with, Like the rich gettingricher, poor getting poorer, and
so much hoarding of wealthhappening.
(29:00):
And the people who are makingthe money are the ones who are
just good at moving money andnot really adding productive
things or producing productivethings.
And then we see this kind ofmodel.
It's interesting how youactually break this down.
And, what it reminded me of iswe only hear about Islamic
economy as like a lay person,just about the charity part of
(29:21):
it.
And, you're right.
Like we don't hear about thepart where, how did the
companions build this wealth?
Like what was their mindset andtheir perspective about it?
so definitely there's a lot offood for thought in that.
One of the points you actuallymentioned though, is about
taking initiative actually.
So you were saying that this issomething that the Prophet
(29:41):
Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallamencouraged, taking initiative,
making high quality decisions.
Can you provide some practicalexamples of how we can be able
to take that on in our
Almir Colan (29:50):
life?
Initiative is something that, inQuran you have the verse that
talks, first always first, andfirst, these are the forerunners
called in Quran.
Because when you look at who arethese people on the Day of
Judgment, they will be people onthe right, people of the left.
So people of the paradise andpeople of the hellfire,
(30:12):
basically.
But amongst the people who areon the right, there is a group
of forerunners people who areahead of everybody.
Who are these people?
These are the people who arealways first in everything that
they do.
And this is why in Quran youfind Many calls race with one
another and go forth, marchforward.
(30:33):
So these people who take actionand are first, you ask question,
who will help us build thismosque?
He's first hand.
Who will help us put this eventtogether?
That person is first.
Who will help us for Gaza event?
So these people always first.
Always out competing, outperforming, they are putting
themselves.
(30:53):
So these people have a specialplace.
These are, Allah says that Hebrings these people near to Him
on the Day of Judgment.
So initiative is something that,you can always see the quality
of people who come first, eventhose people who embraced Islam,
hundred first people, versusthose who came later.
Big difference.
Mifrah Mahroof (31:11):
Hmm.
Almir Colan (31:12):
big difference between people who are there,
When they see Islam as a vision,it's not yet materialized in the
state and so on.
They want to serve Islam versuspeople who later become Muslim
because Islam now is strongerstate and I can benefit from
Islam.
This is a different mindset,different people.
And so these people who want toserve, who want to be first, who
put themselves forward, theseare the real resource that
(31:36):
utilize all of the otherresources.
And that's why we see, as Imentioned the story of
Abdurrahman ibn Nawf.
As soon as he came to Medina, wesee when people ask him to give
him a wealth, he says, show mewhere this is the market.
And Imam Buhari puts these sortof examples before he discuss
rules.
Because rules you can learn, butif you don't have this mindset,
(31:58):
what's the point of learningthese rules?
You need to first have themindset to be self sufficient,
to be upper hand, and then therules are easy to learn.
But, once you lose thisInitiative, this spirit, then
what do you become?
where do you go from there?
This translates in economy thatis, not able to take on the
risks.
(32:19):
it's afraid of taking any kindof chances of anything.
And any economy, in reality, thebiggest risk of any economy is
people.
Not willing to take any riskbecause they become passive they
become afraid and for us tosolve any real problem You need
people who will risk but notjust risk It's calculated risk
(32:39):
and not just to win.
Mifrah Mahroof (32:41):
yeah.
Almir Colan (32:42):
You want people to have environment where we
encourage people who take risk,who try, not just who succeed,
because no one will succeed allthe time.
If we look down at people whodon't succeed, then, we become,
commentators.
Sports of just commentating, oh,this one didn't succeed, this
(33:03):
one didn't succeed, ha ha ha.
No.
We should celebrate the personwho tried and that is become a
culture of trying, striving forsomething.
And then you produce successfrom these things, so initiative
is very important.
And opposite of it isHelplessness, which you can kind
of say is a very deceptiveexcuse.
(33:24):
When people start making excusesfor not doing anything, so it's
again, a very, very lazymentality, very scared
mentality, risk aversementality, that at the end is
very, very detrimental.
Because everything in life Worthdoing, takes the risk.
There is nothing in this life,you wanna apply for that job,
(33:46):
you wanna get married, anythingin life, you have to take risk.
This will not work out, I'll berejected, something will go
wrong.
You put a video on this podcaston, somebody will dislike it,
somebody will say a comment.
There is a risk.
Maybe this doesn't sound good.
Maybe I'm, you know, I'm justtalking something that doesn't
make any sense and people say,what is this guy talking about?
(34:08):
So there is always a risk.
But to get anywhere, you need toembrace that risk.
And so, more you do that, youdevelop this capacity to deal
with the risk.
So it's not that you are brave.
the brave person doesn't fear ordoesn't have anxiety, but the
brave person really become bravebecause they move beyond despite
(34:29):
that fear of failure.
they build themselves up to takeon those challenges.
So you become you become more.
Mifrah Mahroof (34:37):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
You know, that whole verse ofbeing the forerunners and, the
thing I've always thought about,when I think about that, it's
like being forerunner and it'sin like, charity, for example,
like you said, Oh, who wants tobuild a mosque?
You put your hand up.
Or like Gaza, the ones who putit, put a hand up.
But actually, looking at that,even from a perspective of being
the forerunners in becoming moreself sufficient and contributing
(35:01):
towards, human flourishingreally, and being a forerunner
in that.
I never really thought about itthat way, actually.
And to see that these areIslamic concepts and these are
the kind of characteristics weshould strive for is really a
lot of food for thought.
Almir Colan (35:15):
that is a good food, good idea to think about,
because how did this personbecome forerunner in giving
charity?
I mean, it has to come fromsomething, unless somebody gave
him as a charity.
Now, to be in the position wherehe is
Mifrah Mahroof (35:29):
that's
Almir Colan (35:29):
one who is earning that income, he would be doing
something like, let's say, backin Medina in those days, I have
to put the caravan together,have to go somewhere.
The first, I mean, if I'm thelast in the caravan and selling
something and everybody alreadybought that or is not interested
in that, I'm not gonna be thenumber one person in terms of
the wealth or anything.
(35:50):
so I have to be the taking therisk, moving the goods.
You can, you imagine the riskthose entrepreneurs had to face.
They didn't have a Google map.
They have to put it on theanimal goods and then go
somewhere.
There's no, let me tag.
I'm arrived safely at this placeand there is an Uber if I'm
hungry.
You know, you have to, I mean,logistics of doing the business
(36:11):
and taking on the risk anduncertainties and what will
happen then.
it's much different, that evenmore is prominent.
Mifrah Mahroof (36:18):
It's a really characteristic of taking the
risk, being a forerunner, beingthe first and in whatever you're
doing.
And when you think about that,it really makes, well, at least
me think about my own life andthinking about where I'm not
being a forerunner and where I'mbeing held back because of that
fear of not wanting to take arisk and Yeah, I guess it's
(36:40):
something that I really have tothink about more.
Subhanallah so many food forthought.
but, I know that we're gettingclose to the end of our
interview.
And so I want to actually go onto our questions that we ask all
our guests.
So the first one is what's onelife hack that has improved your
life?
I
Almir Colan (36:57):
would say, especially because your audience
is a bit younger, maybe they arestudents, when I was a student,
I developed a system for myselfto be very effective in
studying.
And, that system helped me alot, which is, I understood that
before every lesson I wouldprepare myself a little bit.
(37:19):
About the concepts, I would tryto sit in front and listen and
absorb as much as possible andthen revise.
And then I would put myself in agroup to teach and discuss it
with a group of other students.
And so this sort of a skill andlearning what works for me, how
(37:40):
to study, how to break theconcept, how to, learn things
quickly.
As one of my professors said,the purpose of university is to
learn how to learn thingsquickly.
Because guess what you will bedoing the rest of your life?
Learning a lot of, things.
And you hopefully do thatquickly.
So the purpose of university wasto learn how to learn things
(38:00):
quickly.
How to read, how to consumeinformation, how to manage it.
and how to work with others.
How to really, learn for thesake of learning and
understanding as almost like agame and not really to learn
something for the marks orbecause of other things.
So, learning how to learnquickly and in the organized
(38:21):
setting, really helped me,opened a lot of doors for me.
and I think that's one of myskills that I'm pretty confident
now that I kind of in my headdeveloped that sort of system of
how to learn quickly, how toread it properly.
And extract for the sake ofreally learning.
That change a lot of things inmy life.
Mifrah Mahroof (38:41):
Yeah, and that whole getting in front of the
lecture and revising, it soundslike a very forerunner
characteristic, takinginitiative to teach your
Almir Colan (38:50):
positions you when you read a little bit few
concepts, it's almost like youposition yourself like a cup,
like you know how they sayusually you need to put a cup
like this before it works.
If I flip the cup upside down.
By the time I come and adjustmyself to the lecture, lecture
is already pouring, but the cupis not yet positioned properly.
(39:12):
So you position yourself in theright way.
You already start going andyou're already in the frame of
mind.
So when that starts happening,you are already on receiving
end.
So you are already ready to go.
And so this gives you a lot ofadvantage.
You have to always think aboutwhat can I get, advantages in
terms of the time.
Especially as a student, youdon't have unlimited time.
(39:33):
You have a time which you wantto use as maximum as you can.
One of the blessings we did,discount your youth, your
health, your time.
and you can do so much if youare guarding those things, not
to be robbed by otheractivities.
Mifrah Mahroof (39:46):
That's very true.
It's very true.
SubhanAllah.
So the next question is, what'sa book that has helped you level
up in your life?
A book, it can even be a videoor article as well.
Almir Colan (39:56):
with the books, there are a lot of books, you
come across that you read and,that is very interesting.
if I were to think of oneparticular book, it's very
difficult to say.
I like to read a lot of materialif I have to mention one, book
that I find very interesting isone that I shared with, almost
(40:17):
20 years ago, more with, lateSheikh Mohammed Sharif.
When he was starting Al Maghrib,and at that time he came on the
first lecture tour here inMelbourne, Australia.
And, he was talking about howhe's putting the organization
together.
At that time I was veryinterested in, leadership and
management topics.
I did my first master in thisarea.
And at that time I would readthese books series called One
(40:39):
Minute Manager.
Very short books, tackle few,very simple, ideas.
And this was by KennethBlanchard at that time written.
In this particular book, it'scalled One Minute Manager Meets
the Monkey.
And it's a very interestingbook.
Shaykh Muhammad Sharif wouldlater tell me that how that
book, was very interesting forhim, that he structured the
(41:00):
whole Al-Maghrib based on thatbook.
And it's a very small, little,story about a person who is
trying to manage organizationand the data are certain.
the challenges that he comeacross and just, the story about
monkey and so on, illustrate theproblem that we have sometimes
when we delegate, when we becomeperson who just collects other
(41:23):
people problems.
Somebody call us, we say, I'llget back to you then.
Somebody wants something, oh,I'll get back to you.
And so we collect other peopleproblems and everything, every
next move from everyconversation is become something
that we carry in our bag.
And so these kind of practicalbook through the story
(41:43):
illustrate a point and then giveyou a solution.
I really enjoy reading, bookslike that.
So it's a one minute managerseries.
one minute manager means themonkey.
Mifrah Mahroof (41:53):
I think I remember reading that very long
time ago, but I definitely haveto revise on some, because I
feel like I do take on a lot ofproblems, and then make it my
own.
and where I don't actually needto do that.
thank you, for reminding me ofthat.
Awesome.
So these things will all belinked in the show notes.
And also where can, ourlisteners find you if they want
to learn more
Almir Colan (42:12):
information.
I have a YouTube channel and awebsite.
just my name, Almir Colan, and Ialso recently started a new
platform called Muslim MoneyMatters, which aims to increase
financial literacy of Muslims inthe areas of economics,
business, finance.
And so we are, building a smallcommunity of like minded people
(42:32):
who would like to explore someof these concepts and ideas and
also encourage each other to tryto do something.
Mifrah Mahroof (42:42):
MashaAllah.
That's awesome.
Well, thank you so much, Almir,for coming on.
I really appreciate it.
And as always, I learned a lotfrom talking to you.
So thank
Almir Colan (42:50):
very much.
It was my pleasure
Mifrah Mahroof (42:51):
Hey everyone, that wraps up another episode of
the Muslim Life Hackers podcast.
I really hope you enjoyed ourchat today and got some great
takeaways from it.
If you like what you heard anddon't want to miss out on our
next conversations, hit thatsubscribe button.
It really means a lot to us andhelps us grow the show.
And you know what?
If you're feeling extra generoustoday, drop us a review or a
rating.
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
(43:13):
Thank you again for tuning inuntil next time, keep striving
and getting better every day.
Everything in life worth doing, takes risk.
(00:03):
to get anywhere, you need toembrace that risk.
And so, more you do that, youdevelop this capacity to deal
with the risk
Mifrah Mahroof (00:13):
As-salamu alaykum and welcome to the
Muslim Life Hackers podcast.
I'm your host Mifrah Mahroof andthis is the podcast where we get
better every day.
Through conversations withexperts, leaders, and inspiring
individuals.
We're going to give youactionable insights to help you
win in this life and the next.
So if you're ready to level upin every area of your life and
(00:33):
you committed to living withexcellence for the sake of your
Lord.
You're in the right place.
Get ready for insights,inspiration, and a whole lot of
life hacks.
This is a Muslim Life Hackerspodcast.
Let's dive in.
Asalamu Alaikum, and welcome tothe show.
Almir Colan (00:49):
Wa'alaikum Salam, thank you for inviting me.
Mifrah Mahroof (00:52):
Well, thank you so much for coming on.
I know that when it comes to thewhole topic of Islamic on
economy, MashaAllah, you have awealth of knowledge in that.
So I'm looking forward tolearning more and exposing
myself to these new ideas thatyou have.
So first of all, for those whodon't know, would you be able to
introduce yourself?
Almir Colan (01:09):
My name is Almir Colan and for last, maybe decade
or two, I've been researchingand studying Islamic economic
and finance.
It's one of those areas that isvery exciting.
It's a new in the way that weinstitutionalize some of these
principles in today, day andage, but it's principles are go
(01:30):
to the early days of Islam, andI think today they are getting a
lot of attention because of whatwe are experiencing in our
economy these days.
Mifrah Mahroof (01:38):
What do you mean by what we are experiencing in
the economic
Almir Colan (01:41):
these days?
I think a lot of people find ita little bit that they are not
convinced direction or set uparchitecture for our economy
that it might not universallywork.
Or there might be someprinciples, that people are not
happy.
I remember during the globalfinancial crisis, there was an
Occupy Wall Street movement, andthere was this lady that used to
(02:03):
carry the sign, Let's Bank theMuslim Way.
And I think it reflects thesituation that people think that
what we have created is a littlebit inhuman, the way that we
bank, the way that we do thefinance.
There is a bit more demand formore fair and balanced way of
doing things that is a bit more,stable and not so much prone to
(02:27):
these turbulences.
A bit more ethical, a bit morehuman than what we are seeing
around ourselves.
Mifrah Mahroof (02:34):
Okay.
So, when we take a step back andwhen we look at the whole
economy right now, we see thatit's interest and riba is
actually a very big part of it.
And so I guess like as Muslims,we know that it's prohibited,
but you know, when we have thisconversation with our non Muslim
friends, they'll be like, Oh,what's the big deal?
You're just getting some moneyand you're paying a little bit
(02:54):
extra.
But I wanted to take a step backand understand on a wider scale,
like what is the effect interestriba is having on us and on our
societies and economy as a
Almir Colan (03:06):
whole Riba is an interesting phenomenon.
Even just the translating theword Riba, it's very difficult.
It's a complex phenomenon.
And We usually recognize it incommercial transactions such as
loans, when you are basicallytransacting, getting some money,
paying some money more.
And if you go from thebeginning, people used to find
(03:29):
earning from interest by sellingmoney, making money from money
is a very unnatural way.
Philosophers are like Aristotleused to talk about that this is
most unnatural way to makemoney.
In every religion you wouldfind, like Christianity, let's
say Judaism, you would find thatJesus, for example, when he
would enter a temple where moneychanger used to change shekels,
(03:52):
which is silver, for silver andcharge extra that he threw them
out from the temple.
In Talmud, also you havereferences, and they mention the
word ribit, which is verysimilar to riba.
And again, Quran, Bible, otherrevelations, they all talk about
this idea that charging peopleextra for giving them money is
(04:15):
something that is against thelaw of God.
And so, naturally people alwayshad this idea in their mind.
Even the Shakespeare wrote abook, Merchant of Venice, where
he's talking about money lender.
And he reflected the society,how people saw these people.
They saw them as somebody who islike a parasite, leeching.
And he coined the phrase,extracting the pound of flesh.
(04:38):
This is how they called thesebankers of his time.
Because they were universallydisliked for these practices.
And so, universally people wouldthink about Riba, that is a way
of making money withoutproviding counter value, without
really engaging yourself inproductive economic purposes.
And that frame translates to howyou then construct economy.
(05:02):
Once you have a way for somebodyto make money from just moving
money around, then all of yoursetup reflects that lazy way of
making money.
We now have institutions whereyou make more money by giving
loans, credit cards, then bydoing real things.
So, your banker who is justsitting in the office doing
(05:24):
nothing, makes more money thanthe baker, the mechanic, person
who makes the food.
And, so we intuitively startthinking that the way that we
incentivize this profession maybe not be the most, in line with
what is the best for humaninterest.
In Islam, therefore, theobjective is to connect the
(05:46):
money with the real productivepurposes.
So that as Imam Ghazali say, ifyou start making money from
money, then incentives will bealways to make money easy way.
But for human progress, you needto make money from engaging and
taking risk to make somethingthat benefits people.
Maybe on small sort ofindividual level, somebody might
(06:08):
say, I just took a loan to dothis.
It doesn't matter.
But once you start building thesystem where this is the way
that money moves around, then weopen the door to what we see,
possibility to exploit,possibility to unjustly take
other people's wealth.
And that continues, and eventoday, for instance, if you look
(06:31):
at how we manage inflation, it'sbasically just by increasing
interest rates, which means thatwe take more and more money from
people who had loans originatedsome time ago.
But because we need to managenow inflation, we say this
teacher who is already paying 25percent of their salary for the
mortgage, will pay another 10percent because that's an easy
(06:52):
tool to extract the wealth frompeople.
And there are many examples,where this brings about harm,
brings about destruction,especially when it comes to the
compounded interest.
Many of the countries that getinto these loans, they keep
growing.
We have the experience with theshark loans.
In Islam, we look at these kindsof activities as very predatory
(07:15):
activities.
And Islam is trying to prevent,like all the other religions, to
prevent this kind ofexploitation of the people.
Mifrah Mahroof (07:24):
Hmm.
I see.
You know, it's interesting howyou mentioned, like in today's
time, there's a lot of moneythat's made from loans, credit
cards.
And even when you start readinglike the mainstream finance
books, they say, the rich peoplemake money by moving money and
like doing all these kind oflike lazy ways of earning money.
And that's encouraged as well.
(07:45):
I guess like what I'm hearingthat Islam incentivize actual
productive work, rather thanmaking money the lazy way, which
actually leads me to ask thenext question about the whole
idea of riba mentality.
So that exists as a result ofthis world that we're living in
this riba mentality.
(08:05):
Can you elaborate more on thatand why
Almir Colan (08:07):
that is problematic?
So once people get used tomaking money without really
risking anything, they getaccustomed.
That everything is safe andprofit is guaranteed.
Then they are less likely toengage in something where they
might risk something, wherethere might be a question,
uncertainty whether it will bedelivered or not.
(08:27):
See, if you are a farmer and youput the seeds, you don't know
what will happen.
Maybe there won't be rain, maybesomething will happen.
Then, you have to work, you haveto depend on other people, and,
it's something that is a realthing.
So what starts happening withthese people once they got used
to this way of, what I callsynthetic way of making money,
which is not connected withreality of economy, more and
(08:49):
more, this starts to penetrateand infects the rest of the
economy.
Because now, even when you arein the real economy, you are not
really trying to make money frommaking the better products.
You are very accustomed tomaking money or somebody who is
(09:10):
giving you money.
They want money, profitguaranteed.
So you also want to create asystem where you are not so much
concerned how you make money.
As long as you do make themoney.
And so, what people start doing,let's say you are creating the
food, you will see more and morepeople, in order to satisfy this
Riba loans that they have, theywill start creating more
(09:31):
synthetic food, more lab food.
You buy yogurt, there won't beyogurt in that, it will be just
some chemicals.
You buy bread, you buy whatever.
There is no real food in that.
And so now you have totallysynthetic product that looks
real, but it's designed toextract the maximum wealth from
the people.
So you are not anymore growingwholesome food, pure food,
(09:53):
something that is good forpeople.
You're just growing food that isgood for profit making,
maximizing the profit.
And why is that?
Because you are really lazy toengage in real things.
You are lazy to wait for realprofit, real growth of what
you're doing.
And so this kind of way ofsynthetic way, lazy way of
(10:14):
making money or creating value,it's become synthetic from both
sides.
And so at the end of the day,this feeds in the capitalist
framework.
which is all about numericgrowth, that we celebrate
numeric growth, we talk aboutnumeric growth.
When I get a job, I only thinkabout how much I'm going to be,
(10:35):
package I'm receiving.
And so we reduce the economy tojust the numbers.
And the human there is totallydehumanized.
We don't care about him as aconsumer, as a worker, nothing.
He's just there to deliver, onthis endless, tale of making
more profit and chasing someillusion where he will spend,
(10:56):
that profit on.
And this then becomes a verynegative cycle in our life.
Mifrah Mahroof (11:02):
Yeah, starting from interest and then the
mentality that it brings about.
And then as a result, theconsumer, us, we start have
synthetic foods out there forexample, and then you have
exploitation of humans indifferent countries.
Then you have the environmenteffect that it also has, because
at that point it's all aboutmoney.
(11:24):
Would you say that is the issuewith capitalism?
That it's just that, or wasthere more
Almir Colan (11:31):
to earn.
Well, we know that ProphetSallallahu Alaihi Wasallam told
us that closer to the end ofdays, even if you don't engage
yourself in the interest, thedust of Riba will touch you.
And so, you have to askyourself, where is this dust
coming from?
So, this dust is on your hands,on the products, when you open
(11:52):
the fridge, when you look atthose products, everything is
touched by that.
From the moment we startinvesting and how we are
investing in these things, tothe moment we consume.
There is a dust, even if you arenot directly, there is
indirectly affecting the wholeof our system.
Mifrah Mahroof (12:09):
About capitalism, is that the main
problem?
Because like myself, evengrowing up here in the West,
you've always hear things likecapitalism is great because you
put in value and you get moneyfrom that value.
So then what is the issue withthat?
Almir Colan (12:23):
So, this is connected with the engine of
capitalism, now, what is thecapitalism?
I mean, you could have alectures on capitalism, but,
Capitalism is simply freedom.
Let's call it that way.
It's not exactly, but it'sadvertised as you are free to
engage.
It's incentivize your desire toearn, to own, to put yourself,
(12:45):
be rewarded for hard work.
And that is true.
That is definitely part of thecapitalism.
But capitalism that is notcentered on some values will
also incentivize the worst ofthe human behavior.
And so if I can exploit, if Ican do something that, benefits
(13:05):
me, extract the wealth time,from the people, I will do that.
And so, without values, thisengine that is free to do
whatever it wants, you can dogreat things when you are free,
but you can also create enormousharm.
And once you concentrate so muchpower and money in few hands,
(13:28):
and that person is not driven byany ethics, any values, any
norms.
That is a very powerful machinethat can crush so many people.
And the people don't have easyway to resist, this powerful
machine.
That's why you see this massivecorporation, the way that they
(13:48):
extract the time from people,the way that they calculate to
the second what you are doingand how much to pay you, just
enough to survive and where youcan't have enough just to switch
even the job.
They perfect this, game ofincentives and reward just to
keep you where they want youbecause they're dealing with a
large number of people.
(14:09):
They're dealing with a largesystem and on the scale they
know how get to you.
How to maximally extract whatthey want from you.
And how to keep you busy withthe products, with the illusion,
with spending to get theirproducts.
And so, at the end of the day,the whole lifestyle that is
constructed for maximal controlof you.
(14:30):
Not in the typical way, butmaximal control in consumer
society that is broken andautomized in the individuals who
really cannot resist and largecorporations and their
incentives that they deploy.
This is of course much differentthan in socialism where they
coerce you into these kinds ofthings, but without values,
(14:52):
freedom can be very dangerousthing.
Mifrah Mahroof (14:55):
Yeah, true.
Because then you don't know,what it's going to end up as how
and how it looks like.
I've a few ways to go about withmy next question, but since you
mentioned it, you were saying,the whole system keeps you busy
and it's designed in a way thatyou can't get out of it.
So I guess my question is as aMuslim, as a practicing Muslim,
(15:15):
is there a way that, there's adifferent way we can see this?
is there an alternative that wecan learn about, that there's a
solution in our deen for this?
Almir Colan (15:24):
It's a very deep question that goes to the root
of who we are as a humans.
Sometimes I think about it whenI look at our life as if there
are layers.
There are layers of reality, andsometimes person look at
neighbor, they got a nice car,nice house, nice something,
grass is always green there, andperson now desires all of these
(15:47):
things.
And sometimes they say, well, mylife is like this.
They always look at thesedeficiencies that they might be
missing in life.
The Prophet, Sallallahu AlaihiWasallam, told us that when you
see somebody whose material isdoing better than you, to be
really content and not to be ina state where you are ungrateful
and unhappy, look at the personwho has less than you, but what
(16:10):
is this life is teaching us?
It's opposite.
It's always look at somebody whois better than you.
So we are in a constant,unsatisfied state.
You have this car, but that onegot another bigger car.
Okay, you have iPhone 13, buthe's got 14, you got 14, he's
got 15 now, 16.
We are always in perpetual stateof wanting to buy something, and
(16:33):
as soon as we get that, weimmediately don't want it
anymore.
We want another next thing.
So you have this by design.
Unsatisfied, ungrateful, neverstopping to reflect, to be
content, to enjoy, but alwayshungry for more.
And this is something in thehuman, when you start creating
(16:55):
this setup, that you can neversatisfied.
The Prophet, Sallallahu AlaihiWasallam, said that if son of
Adam were to have a mountain ofgold of Uhud, he wants to have
another one, and another one,and so on.
He said, what will satisfy him?
is the dust of his grave.
And so this goes back to ourgrandfather in paradise, who had
(17:15):
everything except little.
But the devil approached andsaid, look, you really need this
last piece, and then you will befully satisfied like angels and
so on.
So this trick, this exploitationof insecurity or scarcity that
we have is the game.
And so shaitan is scaring uswith poverty.
And so what the game is, justconsume, buy more, buy more.
(17:38):
There is another thing, anotherthing, another thing to have, to
be mindful, to consume, to get,to work for.
And while we are in thatperpetual state of fear and
consumption and buying andgrabbing and taking, he takes
all of our time.
And we don't realize that we arenot even happy.
This is not even working for us.
We don't see our children.
(17:59):
We don't have relations.
We lose our health.
It's time.
And so, by the time we realizethat time is wasted, life is
wasted.
And even when I get it, there isno utility of it.
By the time you go through that,then we realize the depth.
And we said that, this wasalways the trick.
Always make you wanting more.
And so, unfortunately, this issomething that, sooner we
(18:22):
realize, some of these valuesIslamic, not just being
grateful, content, but alsoother invisible impacts on
wealth, like blessings ofwealth, Barakah.
There are some of theseintangible Layers that are
there, that if there is aBarakah, it will behave
differently your wealth.
(18:43):
The things you buy with Barakahwill have different effect, they
will have Barakah.
So person today,
Mifrah Mahroof (18:48):
What do you mean
Almir Colan (18:49):
so the Barakah?
is special divine blessing.
It's something that when you putit inside of something, that
something becomes more.
And when it is not present,
Mifrah Mahroof (18:59):
Mm
Almir Colan (19:00):
you feel something is missing, and so you
sometimes, look at the Barakahin your time.
Sometimes, in one day, you do somuch.
You are very productive,organized, you don't waste your
time, and you say, I haveBarakah.
Like, this day was like a week,like deep, deep work.
Mifrah Mahroof (19:20):
hmm.
Almir Colan (19:20):
Some days, week pass, you have done nothing.
So no barakah.
Similar, you earn something andyou go to the shop and I buy a
few items, there is no money.
I don't know where it went.
And so, with your time, withyour actions, we want to have
this blessing.
This is a special boost insidethe things that gives you more
(19:42):
than what numerically it lookslike.
That is why you see people whoare very, very rich, but
nothing, they have everything,everything from this life.
That's why in paradise, Adam hadeverything.
Every single thing, but still hewants something.
So as a human, there is alwaysthat, in reality, what, what,
(20:03):
what is missing is the heart.
Here is the point is the heartthat connects itself to the
creator of everything, or itstarts to link itself to
material things.
And, once you start linkingyourself to the material things,
then person is happy to cheat,to do whatever, does not care,
how they get it, is it in theright way, wrong way, so
(20:27):
spending or making money, itbecome just a game, just to get
that material.
And so, that craving formaterial then preoccupies the
heart, and this is somethingthat can never fills the heart,
and that's why the ProphetSallallahu Alaihi Wasallam said,
You have one mountain, you wantanother one, and another one.
In reality, you are justincreasing your appetite.
What will fill it up is when youdie, when you realize that this
(20:48):
is just a dust.
What is this all things?
It's a metal, cement, steel.
What are we accumulating?
Dirt from the land.
What was all of these thingsabout?
What is it doing?
So this is where having thatperception, having that
understanding, that you are hereto purify your heart, purify
(21:09):
your soul, to tie yourself withAllah subhanahu wa ta'ala, and
not to the other things.
And that is how you free yourheart from these fears.
Once you remove these links fromyour heart to these other
things, material things.
And so, yes, have it in yourhand as much as you can.
(21:29):
Get without sacrificing all ofyour time, but understand that
it should stay in the hand, notin the heart.
Mifrah Mahroof (21:36):
That's a very profound point.
So it seems like when you getstuck in the game, then you're
just on a perpetual cycle, butthe way to actually get out of
that game or that they say thatwhole rat race is to take a step
back and connect your heart withAllah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala and
purify your heart and find waysto have more blessings in your
(21:57):
wealth as well.
So that's a very good point thatwe can really think about more.
Another thing that I was reallyinterested to, actually, expose
myself to these new ideas isthat we spoke earlier about the
economy.
And I also want to know, likehow would the Islamic economy,
like how is the Islamic economydifferent to that?
I know that you mentioned thatIslam rewards, productive work.
(22:20):
But is there more to it?
Like, what's the whole aim thatmakes it different and more just
like you were saying earlier?
Almir Colan (22:26):
So, Islamic economy would work a little bit
differently.
So, number one, when it comes toIslamic economy, like any other
economy, Wealth creation iscritical.
So sometimes we don't often talkabout it, but when you think
about companions like Uthman,for example, helping Muslim
community of Medina in the earlydays, whether by buying the
(22:49):
wealth ruma, which he gives asendowment to the community, or
he's giving away enormous amountof caravans of food and supplies
for people, we often like toquote these instances when it
comes to charity event toencourage people to give, like
Uthman or any other companion.
(23:11):
But we should also reflect that,how did he make this wealth?
Because companions came frommecca to Medina as refugees,
they were running away, theywere economically boycotted,
they are looking for the home,and so, how come within a few
years, suddenly you have peoplewho are giving gold, and
resources, which are now maybein billions of dollars, some of
(23:33):
these things.
So, When he was in Medina, wasUthman just not thinking about
his business or was he justwaking up one day and thinking,
okay, let me just rock up to themarket and maybe something
happens, or maybe he had a bitmore, strategic way of thinking
about these issues, And that'swhy we see in the, in the Imam
Bukhari's book about businesstransaction, you know,
(23:55):
Abdulrahman Ibn Nawf, evenpeople wanted to give him
wealth, he refused it because hewanted to go to market and start
his own business.
So we see that entrepreneurial,that initiative mindset of the
early companions, who evenduring the time of the Prophet,
Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, theywere in the markets doing
business, trade, and so on.
(24:16):
So, Wealth creation is a veryimportant part.
Wealth creation is significantbecause this is what solves the
problem of people.
Once you have a market wherethings are done, that means
people can buy and sellproducts.
These are the products, liketoday's economy, that any
economy is producing.
(24:36):
This is what helps you buy thislaptop so we can talk,
microphone, lights, car,internet.
So your economy, your market, issolving for your needs.
Because business people andother investors, they are
producing what you need.
So the best way to solve theproblems is by, in this way,
(24:58):
productive way.
Now the second thing whathappens is that people get the
jobs.
So they are able to, not just,help you by producing for you,
but they're able to, earn theincome and, be self sufficient,
feed their own family and so on.
And then, What happens as aresult of the work and
production is that you generatea surplus.
(25:19):
So this surplus is veryimportant for a second part of
economy, which is that from ourIslamic perspective we are very
generous and we like to give asa charity, whether it's Zakat,
Sadaqah, leave the Waqf or thewill to the other
Mifrah Mahroof (25:35):
Hmm
Almir Colan (25:37):
and so this creates a protective system where the
money circulates and those whocannot participate in the market
or help themselves, they getopportunity to get back into the
market because now you aresupporting it.
And this brings people much morecloser together when they see,
uh, Wealthy people who aregenerous, and we have example of
(25:59):
this in Islamic society wherethe companions used to go to
Prophet Sallallahu AlaihiWasallam, and they would say,
Oh, Messenger of Allah, theserich people overtake us.
And so they would look at themand how they spending wealth on
society as a something by whichthey overtake them in the good,
and Righteous Deeds, unliketoday where it is not
(26:22):
necessarily that you look at therich people, for example, of how
to be charitable, usually thosewho are the least wealthy, they
are the most charitable, and thethird is, a third piece of that
equation, is that you producewealth in an ethical way, you
are not trying to make wealthfrom the things that have
detrimental impact on society,like maybe gambling or some
(26:46):
asset classes or things that arereally, harmful for the society.
So, from the way the wealthcirculates, from the way that
you protect your wealth, to theway you create your wealth,
Islamic economy has a systemthat incentivize wealth
creation, but in an ethical way,and by producing something that
(27:07):
benefits the people.
So this is a model that Iactually developed called
Shepard's Model that summarizesthe basic bits and pieces, and
when we compare it to any othermodel, we can see by its ethics
and prohibitions, how it differsfrom other systems, by the way
it regulates distribution andcirculation of the wealth, by
(27:28):
the way it incentivizes thecreation of the wealth.
And so we can easily see that,this is more humane, more
balance way of living.
And of course, it is supportingIslamic way of life, which
centers around the family,around the community.
It's not trying just to exploit,it takes into consideration your
(27:49):
environment, differentstakeholders.
The purpose is not just to makemoney, it's to create Islamic
lifestyle.
That really is a, it's got abalance.
So the wealth would not be justthe numeric wealth.
Wealth would be time to spend itwith the people that you love,
to be good, to be beneficial.
So success would not just be inthis life, but in the next life.
(28:10):
it's much more than justindividualistic, consumer based,
desire driven, fear driven, asyou call it, rat race.
It's more enjoyable with otherpeople, and it brings you to be
more human, and less afraid, butmore connected to Allah
subhanahu wa ta'ala, and moreinterdependent with other
(28:31):
people.
So you feel good about living,You are not as scared and you
are really find so much joy inyour life.
Mifrah Mahroof (28:39):
Yes, there's so much justice in the Islamic
model and how it actuallysupports human flourishing and
advancing, human beings.
And it's just, when you seethat, when you actually read
about that and then when you seewhat's happening in today's time
with, Like the rich gettingricher, poor getting poorer, and
so much hoarding of wealthhappening.
(29:00):
And the people who are makingthe money are the ones who are
just good at moving money andnot really adding productive
things or producing productivethings.
And then we see this kind ofmodel.
It's interesting how youactually break this down.
And, what it reminded me of iswe only hear about Islamic
economy as like a lay person,just about the charity part of
(29:21):
it.
And, you're right.
Like we don't hear about thepart where, how did the
companions build this wealth?
Like what was their mindset andtheir perspective about it?
so definitely there's a lot offood for thought in that.
One of the points you actuallymentioned though, is about
taking initiative actually.
So you were saying that this issomething that the Prophet
(29:41):
Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallamencouraged, taking initiative,
making high quality decisions.
Can you provide some practicalexamples of how we can be able
to take that on in our
Almir Colan (29:50):
life?
Initiative is something that, inQuran you have the verse that
talks, first always first, andfirst, these are the forerunners
called in Quran.
Because when you look at who arethese people on the Day of
Judgment, they will be people onthe right, people of the left.
So people of the paradise andpeople of the hellfire,
(30:12):
basically.
But amongst the people who areon the right, there is a group
of forerunners people who areahead of everybody.
Who are these people?
These are the people who arealways first in everything that
they do.
And this is why in Quran youfind Many calls race with one
another and go forth, marchforward.
(30:33):
So these people who take actionand are first, you ask question,
who will help us build thismosque?
He's first hand.
Who will help us put this eventtogether?
That person is first.
Who will help us for Gaza event?
So these people always first.
Always out competing, outperforming, they are putting
themselves.
(30:53):
So these people have a specialplace.
These are, Allah says that Hebrings these people near to Him
on the Day of Judgment.
So initiative is something that,you can always see the quality
of people who come first, eventhose people who embraced Islam,
hundred first people, versusthose who came later.
Big difference.
Mifrah Mahroof (31:11):
Hmm.
Almir Colan (31:12):
big difference between people who are there,
When they see Islam as a vision,it's not yet materialized in the
state and so on.
They want to serve Islam versuspeople who later become Muslim
because Islam now is strongerstate and I can benefit from
Islam.
This is a different mindset,different people.
And so these people who want toserve, who want to be first, who
put themselves forward, theseare the real resource that
(31:36):
utilize all of the otherresources.
And that's why we see, as Imentioned the story of
Abdurrahman ibn Nawf.
As soon as he came to Medina, wesee when people ask him to give
him a wealth, he says, show mewhere this is the market.
And Imam Buhari puts these sortof examples before he discuss
rules.
Because rules you can learn, butif you don't have this mindset,
(31:58):
what's the point of learningthese rules?
You need to first have themindset to be self sufficient,
to be upper hand, and then therules are easy to learn.
But, once you lose thisInitiative, this spirit, then
what do you become?
where do you go from there?
This translates in economy thatis, not able to take on the
risks.
(32:19):
it's afraid of taking any kindof chances of anything.
And any economy, in reality, thebiggest risk of any economy is
people.
Not willing to take any riskbecause they become passive they
become afraid and for us tosolve any real problem You need
people who will risk but notjust risk It's calculated risk
(32:39):
and not just to win.
Mifrah Mahroof (32:41):
yeah.
Almir Colan (32:42):
You want people to have environment where we
encourage people who take risk,who try, not just who succeed,
because no one will succeed allthe time.
If we look down at people whodon't succeed, then, we become,
commentators.
Sports of just commentating, oh,this one didn't succeed, this
(33:03):
one didn't succeed, ha ha ha.
No.
We should celebrate the personwho tried and that is become a
culture of trying, striving forsomething.
And then you produce successfrom these things, so initiative
is very important.
And opposite of it isHelplessness, which you can kind
of say is a very deceptiveexcuse.
(33:24):
When people start making excusesfor not doing anything, so it's
again, a very, very lazymentality, very scared
mentality, risk aversementality, that at the end is
very, very detrimental.
Because everything in life Worthdoing, takes the risk.
There is nothing in this life,you wanna apply for that job,
(33:46):
you wanna get married, anythingin life, you have to take risk.
This will not work out, I'll berejected, something will go
wrong.
You put a video on this podcaston, somebody will dislike it,
somebody will say a comment.
There is a risk.
Maybe this doesn't sound good.
Maybe I'm, you know, I'm justtalking something that doesn't
make any sense and people say,what is this guy talking about?
(34:08):
So there is always a risk.
But to get anywhere, you need toembrace that risk.
And so, more you do that, youdevelop this capacity to deal
with the risk.
So it's not that you are brave.
the brave person doesn't fear ordoesn't have anxiety, but the
brave person really become bravebecause they move beyond despite
(34:29):
that fear of failure.
they build themselves up to takeon those challenges.
So you become you become more.
Mifrah Mahroof (34:37):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
You know, that whole verse ofbeing the forerunners and, the
thing I've always thought about,when I think about that, it's
like being forerunner and it'sin like, charity, for example,
like you said, Oh, who wants tobuild a mosque?
You put your hand up.
Or like Gaza, the ones who putit, put a hand up.
But actually, looking at that,even from a perspective of being
the forerunners in becoming moreself sufficient and contributing
(35:01):
towards, human flourishingreally, and being a forerunner
in that.
I never really thought about itthat way, actually.
And to see that these areIslamic concepts and these are
the kind of characteristics weshould strive for is really a
lot of food for thought.
Almir Colan (35:15):
that is a good food, good idea to think about,
because how did this personbecome forerunner in giving
charity?
I mean, it has to come fromsomething, unless somebody gave
him as a charity.
Now, to be in the position wherehe is
Mifrah Mahroof (35:29):
that's
Almir Colan (35:29):
one who is earning that income, he would be doing
something like, let's say, backin Medina in those days, I have
to put the caravan together,have to go somewhere.
The first, I mean, if I'm thelast in the caravan and selling
something and everybody alreadybought that or is not interested
in that, I'm not gonna be thenumber one person in terms of
the wealth or anything.
(35:50):
so I have to be the taking therisk, moving the goods.
You can, you imagine the riskthose entrepreneurs had to face.
They didn't have a Google map.
They have to put it on theanimal goods and then go
somewhere.
There's no, let me tag.
I'm arrived safely at this placeand there is an Uber if I'm
hungry.
You know, you have to, I mean,logistics of doing the business
(36:11):
and taking on the risk anduncertainties and what will
happen then.
it's much different, that evenmore is prominent.
Mifrah Mahroof (36:18):
It's a really characteristic of taking the
risk, being a forerunner, beingthe first and in whatever you're
doing.
And when you think about that,it really makes, well, at least
me think about my own life andthinking about where I'm not
being a forerunner and where I'mbeing held back because of that
fear of not wanting to take arisk and Yeah, I guess it's
(36:40):
something that I really have tothink about more.
Subhanallah so many food forthought.
but, I know that we're gettingclose to the end of our
interview.
And so I want to actually go onto our questions that we ask all
our guests.
So the first one is what's onelife hack that has improved your
life?
I
Almir Colan (36:57):
would say, especially because your audience
is a bit younger, maybe they arestudents, when I was a student,
I developed a system for myselfto be very effective in
studying.
And, that system helped me alot, which is, I understood that
before every lesson I wouldprepare myself a little bit.
(37:19):
About the concepts, I would tryto sit in front and listen and
absorb as much as possible andthen revise.
And then I would put myself in agroup to teach and discuss it
with a group of other students.
And so this sort of a skill andlearning what works for me, how
(37:40):
to study, how to break theconcept, how to, learn things
quickly.
As one of my professors said,the purpose of university is to
learn how to learn thingsquickly.
Because guess what you will bedoing the rest of your life?
Learning a lot of, things.
And you hopefully do thatquickly.
So the purpose of university wasto learn how to learn things
(38:00):
quickly.
How to read, how to consumeinformation, how to manage it.
and how to work with others.
How to really, learn for thesake of learning and
understanding as almost like agame and not really to learn
something for the marks orbecause of other things.
So, learning how to learnquickly and in the organized
(38:21):
setting, really helped me,opened a lot of doors for me.
and I think that's one of myskills that I'm pretty confident
now that I kind of in my headdeveloped that sort of system of
how to learn quickly, how toread it properly.
And extract for the sake ofreally learning.
That change a lot of things inmy life.
Mifrah Mahroof (38:41):
Yeah, and that whole getting in front of the
lecture and revising, it soundslike a very forerunner
characteristic, takinginitiative to teach your
Almir Colan (38:50):
positions you when you read a little bit few
concepts, it's almost like youposition yourself like a cup,
like you know how they sayusually you need to put a cup
like this before it works.
If I flip the cup upside down.
By the time I come and adjustmyself to the lecture, lecture
is already pouring, but the cupis not yet positioned properly.
(39:12):
So you position yourself in theright way.
You already start going andyou're already in the frame of
mind.
So when that starts happening,you are already on receiving
end.
So you are already ready to go.
And so this gives you a lot ofadvantage.
You have to always think aboutwhat can I get, advantages in
terms of the time.
Especially as a student, youdon't have unlimited time.
(39:33):
You have a time which you wantto use as maximum as you can.
One of the blessings we did,discount your youth, your
health, your time.
and you can do so much if youare guarding those things, not
to be robbed by otheractivities.
Mifrah Mahroof (39:46):
That's very true.
It's very true.
SubhanAllah.
So the next question is, what'sa book that has helped you level
up in your life?
A book, it can even be a videoor article as well.
Almir Colan (39:56):
with the books, there are a lot of books, you
come across that you read and,that is very interesting.
if I were to think of oneparticular book, it's very
difficult to say.
I like to read a lot of materialif I have to mention one, book
that I find very interesting isone that I shared with, almost
(40:17):
20 years ago, more with, lateSheikh Mohammed Sharif.
When he was starting Al Maghrib,and at that time he came on the
first lecture tour here inMelbourne, Australia.
And, he was talking about howhe's putting the organization
together.
At that time I was veryinterested in, leadership and
management topics.
I did my first master in thisarea.
And at that time I would readthese books series called One
(40:39):
Minute Manager.
Very short books, tackle few,very simple, ideas.
And this was by KennethBlanchard at that time written.
In this particular book, it'scalled One Minute Manager Meets
the Monkey.
And it's a very interestingbook.
Shaykh Muhammad Sharif wouldlater tell me that how that
book, was very interesting forhim, that he structured the
(41:00):
whole Al-Maghrib based on thatbook.
And it's a very small, little,story about a person who is
trying to manage organizationand the data are certain.
the challenges that he comeacross and just, the story about
monkey and so on, illustrate theproblem that we have sometimes
when we delegate, when we becomeperson who just collects other
(41:23):
people problems.
Somebody call us, we say, I'llget back to you then.
Somebody wants something, oh,I'll get back to you.
And so we collect other peopleproblems and everything, every
next move from everyconversation is become something
that we carry in our bag.
And so these kind of practicalbook through the story
(41:43):
illustrate a point and then giveyou a solution.
I really enjoy reading, bookslike that.
So it's a one minute managerseries.
one minute manager means themonkey.
Mifrah Mahroof (41:53):
I think I remember reading that very long
time ago, but I definitely haveto revise on some, because I
feel like I do take on a lot ofproblems, and then make it my
own.
and where I don't actually needto do that.
thank you, for reminding me ofthat.
Awesome.
So these things will all belinked in the show notes.
And also where can, ourlisteners find you if they want
to learn more
Almir Colan (42:12):
information.
I have a YouTube channel and awebsite.
just my name, Almir Colan, and Ialso recently started a new
platform called Muslim MoneyMatters, which aims to increase
financial literacy of Muslims inthe areas of economics,
business, finance.
And so we are, building a smallcommunity of like minded people
(42:32):
who would like to explore someof these concepts and ideas and
also encourage each other to tryto do something.
Mifrah Mahroof (42:42):
MashaAllah.
That's awesome.
Well, thank you so much, Almir,for coming on.
I really appreciate it.
And as always, I learned a lotfrom talking to you.
So thank
Almir Colan (42:50):
very much.
It was my pleasure
Mifrah Mahroof (42:51):
Hey everyone, that wraps up another episode of
the Muslim Life Hackers podcast.
I really hope you enjoyed ourchat today and got some great
takeaways from it.
If you like what you heard anddon't want to miss out on our
next conversations, hit thatsubscribe button.
It really means a lot to us andhelps us grow the show.
And you know what?
If you're feeling extra generoustoday, drop us a review or a
rating.
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
(43:13):
Thank you again for tuning inuntil next time, keep striving
and getting better every day.
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