June 23, 2024 • 53 mins
In this episode, business coach Gemi Hartojo explores why high-achieving women face burnout in the workplace. The conversation covers the differences in masculine and feminine energy in the workplace and practical strategies to find flow and fulfillment in both professional and personal settings.
Timestamps:
01:35 Challenges Faced by High Achieving Women
04:04 Understanding Masculine and Feminine Energy in the Workplace
15:25 Finding Your Zone of Genius
28:46 Balancing Family and Personal Time
29:35 The Concept of Time in Islam
32:46 Parenting Challenges and Strategies
36:57 Respect and Boundaries with Children
42:58 Embracing Feminine Energy and Chaos
About Gemi Hartojo:
Gemi Hartojo (Guh-mee, Harr-Toyo), is a trained and certified business coach from the Co-Active Training Institute (CPCC) and ACC credentialed by the ICF; who guides business leaders, entrepreneurs, and their teams to become highly effective individuals and groups, cultivating positive, inclusive, and psychologically safe environments.
Connect with Gemi Hartojo:
Resources Mentioned:
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Connect with Mifrah Mahroof:
🏖️ This episode is sponsored by Sisters Explore, a company I founded to offer guided small-group travel for Muslim women to connect, explore, and enjoy faith-centered journeys. Learn more at http://www.sisters-explore.com
Disclaimer: Some links in this description are affiliate links.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gemi Hartojo (00:00):
We have been given a gift that we didn't ask for,
from Allah that is specific tous that makes us truly unique.
There's literally only one ofyou in this world.
Mifrah Mahroof (00:12):
As-salamu alaykum and welcome to the
Muslim Life Hackers podcast.
I'm your host Mifrah Mahroof,and this is the podcast where we
get better every day.
Through conversations withexperts, leaders, and inspiring
individuals.
We're going to give youactionable insights to help you
win in this life and the next.
So if you're ready to level upin every area of your life and
(00:33):
you committed to living withexcellence for the sake of your
Lord.
You're in the right place.
Get ready for insights,inspiration, and a whole lot of
life hacks.
This is a Muslim Life Hackerspodcast.
Let's dive in.
Assalamu Alaikum, Gemi.
Welcome to the show.
Gemi Hartojo (00:50):
Wa'alaikum Salam Warohmatullah, how are you?
Mifrah Mahroof (00:52):
Good, Alhamdulillah.
How are you?
Gemi Hartojo (00:54):
To be, I'm so excited to be here.
Thank you so
Mifrah Mahroof (00:56):
much too.
I'm so excited to have you here.
Let's start off with thequestion that we ask all our
guests.
Can you start off with anintroduction and tell us about
yourself.
Gemi Hartojo (01:05):
Asalamu Alaikum Warahmatullah.
I'm Coach Gemi and I am a Muslimwoman business coach.
I help, aspiring entrepreneurs,seasoned entrepreneurs and their
teams, as well as I help, peoplewho want to be intrapreneurs
within their organization tolevel up and step up into their
best self, live into theirAmanah, and live into their best
(01:26):
life in this life and in thehereafter too.
Mifrah Mahroof (01:29):
Awesome.
Well, there's a lot to unpackingthat because that's like an
overall mission.
So it's like, some of the thingsthat we spoke about before we
interviewed, the record buttonwas around high achieving women.
So this is something that we canboth relate to actually, like we
want to get out there, get ourgoals and achieve all of these
(01:51):
things.
But there's something thathappens to a lot of high
achieving women is the wholetopic of burnout.
And, I want to know what yourthoughts on this, like, what are
you seeing?
Gemi Hartojo (02:03):
I would say across the board, it's very
interesting.
I coach both Muslim and nonMuslim women too, because even
though I do target only Muslim,but there's both that come to
me.
And what I'm seeing across theboard is that, women are finding
themselves in hair pullingsituations, meaning that they're
so, they've hit a wall and theyare finding themselves on that
(02:24):
hamster wheel in a way that islike telling them that they're
not able, they don't have achoice to get out of it, right?
To get out of that hamster wheeland what I've noticed is that
It's bleeding to all parts oftheir lives.
They are not performing the waythey want to do.
(02:44):
They want to perform at work.
they feel, their bodiesactually, super tired as well,
right?
So they're not able to selfregulate.
They're not able to, beresilient.
They're not able to, just goingto kind of hold it all in.
they all kind of like look thepart and they're, performing
well, but when they come to me,they're at a point where they're
(03:05):
just like, they're at a wall andeverything is kind of like
spiraling.
They don't know where they'regoing.
And why am I here?
And all these questions, rightthere that are coming up, they
know that there's somethingmore, they know that there's
something more to their life.
And they're like, do I justlike, quit the job and run away
(03:26):
and kind of do my own thing.
And I'll just say that that'snot really a solution, right?
we need to kind of likeidentify, what do they really
need?
And so the first question Iusually ask is, what do you
need?
What do you need?
Mifrah Mahroof (03:41):
Hmm.
So you touched up on that, firstof all jobs, right?
So you're finding that a lot ofwomen are burning out in their
jobs.
So, is that something that'sspecific to women or do men also
face that?
Gemi Hartojo (03:58):
I think, not as much in men.
Okay, why why would you saythat's a case?
I think men's perspectives arecompletely different.
They have a masculine energy.
They like the doing, right?
They like the task, orientation.
I think the biggest challengewith men in a workspace is
they're trying to become thatalpha male, right?
(04:19):
There's, and then that's atendency of the, you know, we're
going to talk about a little bitabout the masculine and the
feminine energy.
And what I found out is that,the systems today, workspace,
corporate workspace, I mean,life in general has been
designed by guys, right?
Where it's industrial, which islike one step to the next, you
(04:40):
know, everything has to be inorder.
At seven o'clock, you have ameeting at this, you have this,
you have a deadline, you have tocreate this.
And there's a lot of to do liststhat come out of this, where men
thrive in that environment,because they just.
They're task oriented, right?
Mifrah Mahroof (04:54):
But that's very interesting because that's how
life is.
Like, that's the expectationthat we have task orientated.
Like there isn't really anyother way to get it done.
other than that way.
Gemi Hartojo (05:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And do you know why?
Mifrah Mahroof (05:08):
what aids that?
Gemi Hartojo (05:10):
Because it's result oriented.
Mifrah Mahroof (05:12):
But then how else would you get results?
Gemi Hartojo (05:15):
So here's the thing.
There is a dichotomy that I'vekind of tested and I have gone
through my software, so when menare given, because they're very
one minded, one track minded,and physiologically, they don't
have the same sort of ability tomultitask as women do.
Right?
So task oriented is the kind ofway to do however, women don't
(05:37):
operate that way.
Women have the ability, gosisters, right?
We have the ability to dolaundry.
boil pasta, have a meeting, gowrite something, check on the
kids, we have this innateability.
And, actually, When we're inthis flow, right?
(06:00):
Okay.
Yeah.
We're going to do all thesethings.
It actually allows us.
And I don't know, I've seen thisactually with a lot of, women
professionals that I've workedwith is that when we are able to
have that outlet of like thedifferent elements, it makes us
actually be able to concentrate.
And we're told like, Oh no, youhave to sit one step at a time.
(06:21):
Guess what?
I'm not feeling it.
I don't feel like writing thatreport at this moment because
it's just not coming to me.
Have you ever said to yourself,I just don't have the flow?
Mifrah Mahroof (06:34):
Always.
I have experienced that.
Gemi Hartojo (06:38):
right?
I just don't feel like it.
Mifrah Mahroof (06:41):
But I thought that something's wrong with me
and my laziness.
Gemi Hartojo (06:45):
because we're told, no, no, you need to do
point A first, point B first,point C first.
And many men think, oh, womenare crazy because they're just
not concentrating, becausethey're doing all kinds of
things at one go.
But actually, in that chaos,actually is clarity, because
(07:06):
women and men are completelydifferent.
We go with flow.
And on top of that, we have thephysical capacity, by Allah, to
be able to do many things.
So, you know, their highway islike only one element at a time
that goes to do one.
It's like, do this.
Okay, let's think about it.
Have you ever asked yourhusband, Hey, you know what, can
(07:29):
you please take this, do this,do this?
It doesn't happen becausethey're overwhelmed.
I live with a bunch of boys andthis is what happens.
What are you saying?
We, I don't understand whatyou're saying.
And I'm like, well, while you'rehaving that meeting, you can run
the machine.
you can do all these things.
and I will tell you, because myteam is all women, we sometimes
(07:51):
have meetings while we'recooking.
And I will tell you some of thebest ideas, some of the best
solutions have come out of thosemeetings.
So what does that tell you?
Mifrah Mahroof (08:05):
that tells me a lot.
Actually.
It tells me that the way theworkplace is set up today is not
very, supportive for thefeminine energy, So it also
makes you wonder if thestructures that we have today,
the corporate world, the way weare told to approach
productivity, for example, isall very masculine, energy,
(08:26):
right?
it's like a masculine way to do,do things.
And then you think about thefeminine energy and it's just
chaotic.
It's like, I just wonder, ifthere's just chaos, then how do
you even get anything done?
Gemi Hartojo (08:39):
Well, here's the thing.
Inherently, both men and womenhave feminine and masculine
energy.
It's not just because we'rewomen we just have feminine
energy.
No.
Actually, we need our masculineenergy to get things done.
However, We need to use thatmasculine energy to set
ourselves up for success.
Mifrah Mahroof (08:56):
Right,
Gemi Hartojo (08:57):
the analogy is like, you know, you want to work
out every single day, but youknow, we got to put our abayas
on, we got to put our clothingon and in the house, we're not
using that or whatever.
And comes time, we got to workout, but we're downstairs and
our clothing is upstairs.
Right?
So what do we do to setourselves up for success?
Is we, in the closet, we haveour running clothes or whatever
(09:19):
clothes ready to go.
And this is an example ofutilizing the masculine energy
to set it up for the success sothat when we feel like running,
we can use it.
Mifrah Mahroof (09:33):
Ah, right.
That's an interesting one.
So, are you trying to say thatyou wouldn't set a time?
Gemi Hartojo (09:40):
Well, sometimes let's say you have a child.
The child is once had a, vomitedat the time that you're supposed
to go.
Hmm.
And I've noticed even for myselfthat to do lists no longer work.
And even with my team, I'll tellyou, this is very interesting.
And we tried this for an entireyear.
(10:01):
We used to have a to do list,like, all these things that we
had to do.
It was tch, all these things.
We did not get anything done.
we were like, why, why do wehave all these to do lists?
We did all these, and we didthem, like we've kind of forced
ourselves to do it, but it waslike as if we were spinning our
wheels.
Mifrah Mahroof (10:18):
Hmm.
Gemi Hartojo (10:19):
So we switched gears and we went into, you know
what, we're going to have ourmeetings while we're cooking or
we're doing whatever.
It is what it is.
life happens.
And we chose two, maximum threecore things that we needed to
get done that day.
In one year, we got literallymultiply that by three by 360
(10:44):
days, 360.
It all got done.
Mifrah Mahroof (10:49):
Hmm, but it
Gemi Hartojo (10:50):
improvement and we saw change.
Did we get stuff done?
Absolutely.
But was it in a to do?
I gotta do a little checklist.
It didn't work.
let's think about yourself andhow you work.
Your best work isn't achecklist.
Yeah when I actually think abouthow
Mifrah Mahroof (11:11):
it works, I have a checklist, and then I do
everything that's not on thechecklist.
But I get that done.
Yes,
Gemi Hartojo (11:19):
and so, what this is tell us?
And it tells me too, right?
We need to be very clear on whatwe call the big rocks.
You know, I think Stephen Coveytalks about this, you know, The
seven habits of highly effectivePeople Like, oh the big rocks.
And Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'alaactually tells us the same.
What are the most nonnegotiables that we have to do?
And this includes our work,right?
(11:40):
So for example, you are inmarketing.
Okay, I know that at certaintimes of the year they're going
to have like post analysis andput it, whatever.
that's a little goal or a littleproject you put up on the wall.
But you know, and you giveyourself time and you set
yourself up for success to cometowards that.
(12:02):
And you do it when you have thefeeling, because let's say you
have to write a analysis thattakes like insight, right?
That takes time.
Mifrah Mahroof (12:11):
Yeah.
Gemi Hartojo (12:12):
Rather than knee jerking around, and, the
masculine way of doing it, likethis corporate way of doing it,
the checklist is just a control.
They want to control, right?
because that's what guys do.
Like, I mean, not guys do, butlike what the masculine energy
does, which is to control andthe corporate system is meant to
control
Mifrah Mahroof (12:31):
Isn't it?
Hmm,
Gemi Hartojo (12:32):
Think about it
Mifrah Mahroof (12:33):
yeah.
Very much so.
That's very interesting.
So would you say that is whyyou're finding a lot of, high
achieving women who are in acorporate setting and in their
jobs?
So we haven't got to the part ofentrepreneurs or high achieving
mothers who take on a lot, butjust coming back to this
example, this is why you seethem burn out eventually.
(12:54):
So they're coming into the job,they're doing it very well.
And they actually like going up,up, up.
And then at a point there.
Burnout.
Gemi Hartojo (13:03):
Yeah, because they're not fulfilled right?
Because flow is a is a sense offulfillment, right?
Mifrah Mahroof (13:09):
Hmm.
You
Gemi Hartojo (13:09):
feel right.
It's not, it's not about how youthink.
it's really interesting towatch, my high performers go
from, well, I think that weshould do it like this.
I think we have to do it likethis.
That's masculine energy, right?
Because that's trying to fillthe checklist.
Whereas the feminine energy is,you know, kind of talking about
how you feel.
(13:30):
It's that flow.
And you know, it's just quiteinteresting.
And I myself, and I'm goingthrough that too, learning about
the feminine energy.
I was like, I'm not an expert infeminine energy and I'm going
through that too.
So it's quite interesting how,when you're in flow, whatever
you get thrown at you, you'relike, yeah, that's a lot.
Amazing.
(13:50):
Thank you.
And you know that it's going toget done.
Cause let me ask you, how manytimes have you.
gone through the day and you'relike, Oh my God, yeah, I have to
take the kid.
I have to like, there's so manythings that I have to do.
But when you start to lean intoyourself and say, it's got to
get done, it does get done,doesn't it?
Mifrah Mahroof (14:11):
Yeah.
When I actually just sit withmyself and say, Hey, it's going
to be okay.
Yeah.
And it gets done.
Gemi Hartojo (14:18):
Yeah, it doesn't get done in the order that
somebody else wants necessarily,right?
Mifrah Mahroof (14:23):
Okay.
So I guess now we're talkingabout this concept of flow and
how we can best, work as highachieving females.
Now, I was wondering, If someonedid reach a point of burnout
because they've been working ina way that's not, in line with
the way that would best suitthem.
(14:44):
And so at that point, what is itthey need to do?
Because you mentioned earlierhow some people reach that point
of burnout and they're like, I'mgoing to leave my job.
And you'll say, no, that's not asolution.
and there's more to it.
what can someone who's goingthrough burnout do at that
point?
is it just about strategies?
Is it about understanding howthey work?
Gemi Hartojo (15:06):
well, the reason why I say it's not necessarily
the solution to just to quityour job, because, not all women
or not all people like havethat, luxury to just get up and
quit, Of course,
Mifrah Mahroof (15:18):
exactly
Gemi Hartojo (15:19):
right, you know, financially and all the
responsibilities that go withit, right,
Mifrah Mahroof (15:23):
my suggestion is
Gemi Hartojo (15:25):
always to sit down and take stock Sit down and find
out first.
What your life purpose is,right?
So we have the ultimate lifepurpose as a Muslim to worship
Allah But you know, there's likeoh people like I have to go like
worship Allah all day.
Yes, we are worshipping Allahall day, but to take it further
Allah has given you Passions,specific passions that you like,
(15:47):
has been having given youspecific skills that you have,
right?
and Allah's given you gifts thatare only yours.
So let's say as an example,right?
Oh, I'm really passionate abouthelping people.
I'm really passionate aboutcommunication.
I'm really passionate aboutscience, for example, right?
(16:08):
And you know, their skills arelike, I'm really great at math.
Well, there's a lot of peoplewho are great at math or a lot
of people who are great atwriting what have you.
but the true Amana, the muwahib,God, it's a, you know, Al-Wahab
right, going back to Al-WahabAl-Wahab is the gift, right?
we have been given a gift thatwe didn't ask for, from Allah
(16:32):
that is specific to us thatmakes us truly unique.
There's literally only one ofyou in this world.
And how that works is you makepeople happy.
Okay, you could be in tech.
You're great at math.
But your thing is making peoplehappy.
Like when people work with youor people are with you, people
(16:52):
just enjoy working with you.
now we sit down and look at, youknow, your zone of genius.
I like to call this a zone ofgenius because it actually
allows you to kind of harnesslike all three elements and
then, apply it to Either yourjob or you are going to realize,
oh, maybe this is not the rightenvironment for that.
(17:14):
So the way I like to look at itis like, once you find out what
your zone of genius is, let'ssay you're passionate, you know
what your skills are and yourgifts are to make people happy.
Well, maybe the environmentneeds to be.
Let's say in education or maybeit's in a more, less, maybe
private company that's lessdriven by Stockholders or, you
(17:35):
know, stock prices, which is alot more stressful, right?
Because it's all about makingsure that you hit those specific
goals.
Yeah yeah those targets when Italk about the zone of genius, I
think people call it like theIkigai, people sometimes use the
Ikigai.
I don't know if you're familiarwith that, I honestly don't like
the Ikigai, because there's acomponent there that says, what
(17:57):
does the world need?
And here we go.
That is a trying to fit in.
We're not trying to fit in.
Mifrah Mahroof (18:04):
Okay.
Gemi Hartojo (18:05):
to be ourselves.
We need to be ourselves, please,because literally, there's only
one of you, there's only one ofme, maybe we do the same thing,
but we do it in our way, and sothere, technically there's no
competition, this is like anapproach that I really like to,
that has worked actually for mygirls, No, we don't need to look
(18:25):
at the competition.
There is no competition becausethere's only one of you.
How can you be?
It's like apples to oranges.
Are you going to like, areapples going to compete with
oranges?
No.
Mifrah Mahroof (18:33):
tell me, help me understand zone of genius
better.
you were saying there wasskills, there was, um,
Gemi Hartojo (18:39):
Um, your passion
Mifrah Mahroof (18:41):
your skills and passion, okay,
Gemi Hartojo (18:43):
and then, and then your
Mifrah Mahroof (18:44):
helping people and gifts, so gifts meaning,
like something that you areuniquely given.
Gemi Hartojo (18:51):
Something that you're uniquely given, but the
way to kind of find out, whatyour gifts are is to ask
yourself, what do people usuallysay about, when they connect
with me, when they're in my, inmy, company, when they work with
me, for example.
So you want to try?
Can we try?
You want to try with you?
Mifrah Mahroof (19:08):
okay,
Gemi Hartojo (19:09):
let's, do this.
Mifrah Mahroof (19:09):
let's
Gemi Hartojo (19:10):
Okay.
Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna geta, like,
Mifrah Mahroof (19:14):
I'm nervous,
Gemi Hartojo (19:14):
piece.
Mifrah Mahroof (19:15):
let's do this.
Gemi Hartojo (19:16):
That's okay.
You can do b roll.
And take it out if you don'twant to.
All right, we're gonna playhere.
So, I got this.
I'm making this little thing.
Mifrah Mahroof (19:29):
Okay, so there's three, there's three circles for
those who are listening to thison audio.
Three circles that areoverlapping.
Okay.
Gemi Hartojo (19:35):
mm hmm.
It's like a Venn diagram, right?
So, tell me what your passionsare.
Mifrah Mahroof (19:41):
Well, my passions are really, about
empowering and uplifting, makingpeople more independent in a way
that they only have to depend onAllah subhanahu wa ta'ala, self
sufficient, we can say.
Gemi Hartojo (19:55):
Alright,
Mifrah Mahroof (19:58):
So rather than it's, I think the thing that I'm
really intrigued by is like,okay, you can give someone a
fish or you can teach them howto fish.
So it's like, that would besomething around the whole thing
about becoming more selfsufficient, empowered and in
whichever in different areas.
So yeah, very simplistic though.
(20:18):
I don't have anythingcomplicated.
And this is the first thingthat's coming to mind.
So for those listening, I didnot have anything.
Gemi Hartojo (20:26):
And she did not know she was gonna do
Mifrah Mahroof (20:27):
this going to
Gemi Hartojo (20:27):
this
Mifrah Mahroof (20:27):
me on the spot.
So
Gemi Hartojo (20:31):
All right, and so tell me what your skills are
Mifrah Mahroof (20:34):
my skills is tech.
Gemi Hartojo (20:36):
What does that mean sorry, what does that mean?
Mifrah Mahroof (20:39):
Well, what does tech mean?
Tech
Gemi Hartojo (20:42):
Yeah for you Yeah, Podcasting is
Mifrah Mahroof (20:47):
one.
Cloud based technologies.
I mean, things that are, online,I find it very easy to learn,
pick up automations, teachpeople how to use, whatever's
out there, technical stuffthat's out there to, actually
also help them understand it.
So I actually enjoy, sittingwith someone who's non technical
(21:08):
and help them understand thepower of the tech to help them.
and I have that patience forthat.
Gemi Hartojo (21:16):
That's skill right there.
Mifrah Mahroof (21:17):
Yeah.
So
Gemi Hartojo (21:19):
Okay, so now tell me what do people say when they
interact with you, when theywork with you, and you can even
start like with your family,your friends, your colleagues at
work.
What do they usually say?
Mifrah Mahroof (21:33):
Well, they say that I bring energy, like I make
Gemi Hartojo (21:37):
them Okay,
Mifrah Mahroof (21:37):
happy.
I mean, yeah, around that.
I mean, That's what comes tomind, right?
Right?
actually, I'm always up tosomething interesting, something
random.
I mean, my friends would say,I'm doing something one day, and
then the next week they'd belike, Oh, Mifrah's up to this,
or Mifrah's in this part of theworld, or Mifrah's, like,
(21:58):
jumping into a sinkhole orsomething,
Gemi Hartojo (22:02):
so you are, I wouldn't say random, but it's
like adventurous.
Mifrah Mahroof (22:07):
Adventurous.
Yeah.
Adventurous.
that's a word.
But adventurous in also the workthat I do as well.
Gemi Hartojo (22:13):
wow, look at that.
tell me, what environment wouldyou like to be in that you think
these passion skills and giftslike could come to play?
Mifrah Mahroof (22:25):
it's definitely in an environment where there's
autonomy.
So I do have a somewhat say inwhat I'm doing
Gemi Hartojo (22:33):
Uh huh,
Mifrah Mahroof (22:33):
and in environment where I can practice
my creativity and not be veryconstricted by that
Gemi Hartojo (22:41):
uh huh,
Mifrah Mahroof (22:42):
so I can test out different things.
So there is that whole thatadventurousness in the new ideas
I might wanna try, for example,
Gemi Hartojo (22:51):
uh huh, and
Mifrah Mahroof (22:52):
having that freedom to explore it.
So I think these are the kind ofenvironments, these are the kind
of things that I enjoy when I'mworking.
Gemi Hartojo (23:00):
yeah, so this would be an environment, so the
environment has to be safe too,right?
Accommodating, no judgment,sounds like you're an
entrepreneur.
Mifrah Mahroof (23:09):
the diagnosis?
Gemi Hartojo (23:10):
will, but we're going to play, we're going to
play here what your zone ofgenius is, right?
so one thing I like to say isthat anytime anybody says like,
I want to label my life purposeor what my zone of genius is,
it's all playable.
And you're going to notice, onceyou start to get into this habit
of doing this, that there aregoing to be seasons of that in
your life.
(23:30):
When you first get out ofschool, it's a different kind of
life purpose or a zone ofgenius, right?
it's just gonna, it's just goingto change.
And so this is something that'smalleable, that's living, and
you get to play with it all thetime.
But to know it, is veryimportant because then it can
become a compass in you tryingto find the flow that you're
(23:51):
looking for.
What you had just described tome, when you have all of these
elements come to play, you arein a complete flow.
Mifrah Mahroof (23:58):
Hmm.
That's very interesting.
And the fact that you actuallymentioned that things like that
is malleable.
Cause I find when you go alongthat talk of a personality test
or your introverted,extroverted, it's like you're
boxed into something.
And that box for me is veryconstricting.
I
Gemi Hartojo (24:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Mifrah Mahroof (24:17):
just thought it's just, yeah, that's what I
think.
And it's like, no, like we growas people as well.
Gemi Hartojo (24:22):
because sometimes you want to eat something spicy,
and tomorrow you want to eatsomething salty.
Yeah.
Mifrah Mahroof (24:29):
that's true.
Okay.
So that's a very interesting wayto approach it.
So finding that zone of genius.
So you can find, am I in theright place right now?
That is respecting those thingsthat are important to me right
now.
Gemi Hartojo (24:42):
Yeah.
Mifrah Mahroof (24:44):
Interesting.
So,
Gemi Hartojo (24:45):
to kind of bring it all together is what we want
to do is we want to say, okay,my zone of genius is something
along the lines where I have theautonomy, and a sandbox and the
safety to, teach, help people.
or women or whoever it is thatyou want to do or even yourself.
(25:07):
you can do this in an officesetting too.
that is taking very difficultthings, such as tech and distill
it for those who don'tunderstand it.
And you're going to do this withabsolutely high energy.
And an invitation to go on anadventure, like a permission,
because you are going throughthis yourself, you actually are
(25:31):
giving other people permission,to experiment.
And here's the thing.
Now we talk about setting,right?
We talk about like environment.
you do sound like anentrepreneur because the
autonomy and the freedom isimportant.
However, I think that there'salso an element of safety that
is, needs to be honored here.
And what is that safety?
That safety is probablyfinancial, financial stability,
(25:51):
knowing that you have a place togo, knowing that there's a
paycheck coming in and all theseother elements.
And this is why the, going backto our first Question about when
you hit a wall, don't justleave, take a moment and do this
actually exercise and say, Hmm,where in the company that I'm
at?
Could I do this?
And it doesn't mean that you'regoing to go into new role, but
(26:13):
to really to get creative andsay, where in my that 20 percent
and many companies do that,right?
These days they're like, okay,you could have 10 percent or 20
percent of that time to dosomething that's within the
company that can be helpful.
For example, maybe, digitaltransformation is a real thing,
right?
In organizations andorganizations buy software and
(26:35):
tools for automation for to bemore efficient, but a lot of
people don't want to use it.
And actually, I think Martek orsomething like that had a huge
article about that, thatcompanies are spending so much
money on this, but there's noadoption rate.
Maybe this could be anopportunity for you to open the
(26:56):
door and say, Hey guys, I couldhelp with the adoption rate of a
certain blah, blah, blah forTeam X.
Right?
It's starting small.
And so you're fulfilling thatneed or that burning need to do
this while also doing what youneed to do, right?
so it's like, Okay, well, I cando that, right?
(27:18):
Because for somebody to say,okay, I'm going to jump out the
window and become a full blownentrepreneur and not be ready
because all of a sudden there'sno set time.
There's no framework that we'reused to.
It becomes scary.
It's like you're used toswimming in a swimming pool and
(27:39):
then come on, let's go swim inthe ocean.
And then automatically you don'tswim to the middle of the ocean
because that's not what you'reused to.
Mifrah Mahroof (27:47):
Hmm.
Gemi Hartojo (27:48):
You stay close to shore.
Mifrah Mahroof (27:50):
Yeah.
Until you start building it upslowly.
Gemi Hartojo (27:54):
Yeah.
Mifrah Mahroof (27:55):
That makes a lot of sense.
Gemi Hartojo (27:57):
Yeah.
Mifrah Mahroof (27:57):
that, would be the question to ask at that
point.
if we were to take a step back,so a lot of women who are in a
corporate role or something.
And they also have other thingslike, we see they have families,
they have other responsibilitiesoutside.
how do you step back and thinkabout that?
Like say if you were a full timemother, for example, and a
(28:18):
mother does so much and.
Gemi Hartojo (28:20):
Yes.
Mifrah Mahroof (28:21):
they can also go through that burnout.
So in that case, how do you putall your family and your
children into a genius zone andmake that work?
Because with work you can dothat, right?
Gemi Hartojo (28:33):
well, you can do that.
so now we have, Islam comes toplay, right?
It's Haqq, right?
We have Haqq, right?
We have, the word Haqq is like,okay, what is my Haqq to my
body, right?
Myself, my sanity.
and then what's my Haqq to myfamily?
What does that look like?
And really sit down.
(28:53):
What does that actually looklike?
Oh, no, I have to give my time.
I have to give my time.
That's what they're, oh, I haveto do this.
I have to hold on.
hold on.
Hold on.
Even our prophet.
Muhammad Sallallahu AlaihiWasallam goes to his cave and
takes a moment
Mifrah Mahroof (29:08):
Yeah.
Gemi Hartojo (29:09):
from his four wives, the children, the chaos,
the fight, imagine that, right?
But he took time to himself andAllah didn't punish him for
that, right?
That's Haqq.
it's going back to pouring intoyourself.
But I think the pouring intoyourself, from a Western context
(29:29):
or non Islamic context, it'slike, Oh, get massages, do what,
you want, live your life, thatkind of deal.
Whereas hold on, what reallywhat we need is feeding our
soul, time for ourself.
Contemplation.
Because actually the owner oftime, they get, Oh, I don't have
time.
Well, hold on.
who owns time?
Allah.
(29:50):
Okay.
Have you ever had that situationwhere, Oh my God, I have to go
to a meeting and I have to pray.
Oh my God, I only have fiveminutes.
you have already have this,like, I gotta go to that
meeting.
So I'm rushing with Allah, buthold on.
Allah is the owner of time andtry this.
I will recommend this.
You have five minutes and yousay, you know what, Allah, you
(30:10):
are the creator of time.
I'm going to pray because I wantto worship Allah.
I swear that five minutes youjust relax and it's not really
five minutes because technicallyAllah owns the time.
Does that make sense?
Because the feeling of rushingis actually just in our head.
Because we've been told fiveminutes is not enough time.
(30:34):
But who made time?
Mifrah Mahroof (30:35):
but then at the end, five minutes passes though,
in both situations,
Gemi Hartojo (30:39):
But the emotions are different.
That's Right.
I remember my eldest saying tome, Mama, Mama, Mama, tell me
how five minutes feels like.
And I'm like, and this guy, hewas like a little kid, right?
I'm like, what in the world?
Now that I reflect on it, that'sexactly it.
I had him actually sit down andthis is five minutes.
This is what it feels like.
(31:00):
But he couldn't still grasp theconcept.
And now I understand it becauseactually time is a feeling.
Mifrah Mahroof (31:06):
Hmm.
And
Gemi Hartojo (31:08):
Isn't it?
just try it.
Mifrah Mahroof (31:10):
also the whole concept of five minutes, it was
something that came later on inlife, like later on in human
history, the clock and the timeand all that stuff.
Gemi Hartojo (31:20):
exactly.
Mifrah Mahroof (31:22):
That's an interesting way to see it.
so what I'm hearing at thispoint is if you were approaching
work, it would be through thezone of genius, but then if you
were burning out because of allof your responsibilities that
you have, and what I mean bythat is family and all of the
different things that you have,at that point, you would take a
(31:42):
step back and go back to what isexpected from me, from Allah
SWT.
And that's the way to approachit.
Gemi Hartojo (31:49):
I would do that.
And the zone of genius, becausehere's the thing, the zone of
genius is really important forus to know who we are.
So for example, you loveteaching, right?
you want to empower, let's sayyou have kids and you know what?
Your kid doesn't know anythingabout tech.
Wow, you can really empower heror him or them, teaching them
(32:10):
the power of Tech in happy modeand may it be five minutes, 10
minutes, but you see the thingis it's like that cookie.
We just want to set, satiatethat sensation that we ate or
like we took something for us.
And actually when we do the zoneof genius, the indication that
you are in your zone of genius,it does not feel like work.
(32:31):
It feels like it's part of you.
Mifrah Mahroof (32:34):
I
Gemi Hartojo (32:34):
see.
It's very interesting you know,cause it's like, go just do that
thing.
You could do it for hours
Mifrah Mahroof (32:39):
Hmm.
Gemi Hartojo (32:39):
and you wouldn't realize it.
Right.
Yeah.
Mifrah Mahroof (32:46):
this whole exercise of zone of genius is
something that you should doregardless of whether you're a
working mum or you're staying athome with the children, because
even if you're staying at homewith the children, you're still
working.
It's
Gemi Hartojo (33:00):
Oh,
Mifrah Mahroof (33:00):
raising children.
It's not easy.
Gemi Hartojo (33:02):
Oh, absolutely not.
It is a headache.
It's like having, at leastwithin the office, you can talk
to people and say, Hey, you knowwhat, that's not cool, what you
said, or what you did.
and you need to go time yourselfout, right?
You can say that too.
I wouldn't say time yourselfout, but you can like, I need a
break, right?
you can actually say that, butwith children, that doesn't
work.
you can have a high fever andyour children just can be
(33:24):
jumping all over you.
And that's what it is.
Mifrah Mahroof (33:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I have a one and a half yearold toddler, and if I'm tired,
she doesn't understand that.
She'll still jump on my head andstart, and if I don't move, then
I get a slap on my face orsomething, and it's like, okay.
That's funny.
And I was like, I've worked incorporate, I've done all this.
(33:48):
And it's like, I think thehardest thing is just being a
mother and raising children.
Gemi Hartojo (33:53):
Oh, absolutely, I think it's highly underrated,
but going back to the zone ofgenius, now I think about it,
like, even for myself, I mayhave done it, like, inherently.
I love adventure.
I'm very curious.
I like to try everything and,one thing that I would do with
my boys, because they're boys,right?
What are you going to do?
I would do what I call AdventureSaturday.
(34:15):
What's Adventure Saturday?
Yeah, what's Adventure Saturday?
so Adventure Saturday doesn'tmean you're going on an
adventure.
It doesn't mean you're goingbackpacking.
But really, it's about tryingsomething new that nobody in the
family has ever tried.
So, for example, we would take atrip to the Asian market or to
the Arabian market, for example,and just Pick up food or
(34:37):
whatever and we go try it.
And maybe we would like it.
Maybe we don't.
But the point was to go on anadventure and it could be a
taste adventure.
It could be like, Oh yeah, we'reactually going to a field or
we're going to like, I had to doa lot of outdoor things with the
boys.
It's just kind of like, whateverthat may be.
And you can even have thechildren make a suggestion.
(34:58):
And so that's something, and itdoesn't have to be done all day.
It can be done 10 minutes.
because we always think, oh, ithas to be a thing.
No, no,
Mifrah Mahroof (35:06):
Because it goes back to the point you said
earlier about time.
Allah Subhanahuwata A'la is theowner of time.
And it's the feeling that we getfrom that 10 minutes.
Gemi Hartojo (35:14):
yeah, exactly.
And I will tell you, satiationevery time.
They're happy every time.
I'm tired.
Great.
What can I play that requiresme?
How can I play with them?
how can I play with them in away that I don't have to get up?
from my seat.
And I'll tell you the game thatI created.
It's called kick the butt.
(35:36):
So I would sit, I would lie downon the sofa and I would swing my
legs and I would say, whoever'sbutt I kick loses.
And the boys would be soexcited, they would run past me
trying to get their butts notkicked.
I didn't, And you don't
Mifrah Mahroof (35:56):
have to move for that.
Gemi Hartojo (35:59):
I just had to swing my legs on the side of the
sofa.
I'm sorry, I can just rememberthe excitement.
Mifrah Mahroof (36:07):
Yeah.
Gemi Hartojo (36:07):
so happy because I'm interacting with them and
I'm laughing to myself like thisis the dumbest thing ever
Mifrah Mahroof (36:14):
Hey, but it
Gemi Hartojo (36:14):
works But okay Yeah,
Mifrah Mahroof (36:22):
Well,
Gemi Hartojo (36:24):
ask you what would you do with your one and a half
year old If you're tired
Mifrah Mahroof (36:28):
Oh, well, if I am tired, it's a very hard one,
actually.
I don't have the answers becauseshe's my first one and I'm still
figuring things out.
So, if I'm tired.
I might go to my mom's house.
Gemi Hartojo (36:41):
How interesting!
Mifrah Mahroof (36:44):
I might go to my mom's house and like, mom, I'm
really tired right now, but thensometimes I'm really tired that
I can't even get myself in thecar to drive, to go to my mom's
house.
Gemi Hartojo (36:57):
Okay, let's use this as an example because I
think that your listeners wouldreally appreciate an example,
right?
You're so tired you can't evenlift yourself.
So what's the first questionthat we need to ask ourselves
is, what do I need?
What do I need?
So when you're tired like this,what do you need?
Mifrah Mahroof (37:15):
I think just to, sit down and take a deep breath,
Gemi Hartojo (37:19):
Okay.
Mifrah Mahroof (37:19):
in my case, sometimes I can't even sit down
cause she wants to climb on me.
So I'll have to like stand upand take a deep breath.
Gemi Hartojo (37:26):
Okay, so stand up and take a deep breath.
I wonder if this is somethingthat you could teach her.
Hey, can we take deep breathstogether?
Mifrah Mahroof (37:36):
Hmm.
Right.
I see.
Gemi Hartojo (37:38):
I will tell you children are extremely smart.
I have these boys and I'vealways worked, when they were
born, since they were like, Iwould work pretty remotely,
which was a weird thing.
But they would never impede onmy time to work.
And one thing is that no, yeah,really, really, they would never
come bother me.
Because from a very young age, Iwould talk to them as adults, I
(38:02):
said, Okay, guys, I am going togive you your time.
This is your time.
And after that, after your time,I'm gonna have my time.
And granted, it's not a longtime, because they're little, I
would get maybe maximum an hourto myself.
And this is the beauty ofactually being a stay at home
mom.
You control the time.
(38:22):
You control like how you wantyour kids to be, not in a
forceful way, but like an adult.
Mifrah Mahroof (38:29):
Hmm.
Gemi Hartojo (38:30):
I'm going to know it's now mama's playtime.
And what really killed childrenreally want is they just want to
know that you're going to givethem their time.
Think about it.
Is there a specific set timethat you set for your daughter,
every time after work,specifically for your daughter?
Mifrah Mahroof (38:48):
No, not something intentionally.
Gemi Hartojo (38:50):
Yeah.
And so this is what we probablyneed to maybe implement, Hey, I
need to take a breath, but afterI take my breath, which is five
minutes, 10 minutes, whatever itis, we are going to create a
routine.
What's the thing that she likesto do?
With you,
Mifrah Mahroof (39:05):
She likes to read.
Gemi Hartojo (39:07):
Ah, this is
Mifrah Mahroof (39:08):
Oh, she likes me reading to her.
Gemi Hartojo (39:10):
And so, you can say, Hey, I'm here, or whatever,
you appear, I'm going to take myfive minutes, explain to her,
I'm going to take my fiveminutes to breathe.
You go pick out a book that wecan read together, and I'll read
it to you.
And you can say, look, I willtake ten minutes to read to you.
Right?
So take out the kitchen timer,and so it's not like she'll come
(39:32):
with like, a novel, like maybeyou're like, I can't read the
whole book, but I can do 10minutes of reading, right?
So creating a boundary for her,because actually children, they
like boundaries.
They like it.
I mean, we like it.
Mifrah Mahroof (39:45):
interesting.
Yeah.
Gemi Hartojo (39:47):
Like we know, oh yeah, that's right, I've got 10
minutes to do this, I cansqueeze this.
We like it, it's part ofinherently who we are, right?
Mifrah Mahroof (39:55):
that's interesting.
Well, she's still a toddler, soshe's not talking yet, like not
as,
Gemi Hartojo (40:02):
And no, that's okay.
Mifrah Mahroof (40:03):
Okay.
Gemi Hartojo (40:05):
they understand, they know us.
I started with my kids werearound that age, 17 months, 17
months, like a year andsomething, yeah, yeah.
And I think, oh.
Okay, you're good over there?
Mama's now going to do herthing.
And I would come to my friend'shouse and their computers would
be like tarnished because theirchildren like went through it.
(40:25):
I'm like, wow, what happenedhere?
There's like a lack of respect,right?
But at the end of the day, do weeven respect ourselves?
Mifrah Mahroof (40:33):
Hmm.
That's true.
Do we respect ourselves?
Gemi Hartojo (40:38):
Yeah.
Do we
Mifrah Mahroof (40:39):
What does that actually look like?
Gemi Hartojo (40:41):
Well, for me, respecting ourselves is first of
all, respecting our Maker.
Right?
Because Allah SWT gave us abody, gave us a mind, gave us
abilities, capabilities, gave usthings to enjoy.
And when we respect that, we'relike, Oh, you know what?
I respect Allah and I'm going togo walk because my body needs
(41:02):
it.
Mifrah Mahroof (41:03):
Hmm.
Gemi Hartojo (41:05):
And children pick up on that respect.
Mifrah Mahroof (41:07):
So what about that part about, you're saying
how you saw computers get all,all over the place from their
children, whereas,
Gemi Hartojo (41:16):
Mm hmm.
That was
Mifrah Mahroof (41:18):
because of respect, how would it look like
to have respect in a way thatthey won't come at your
computers and just come intoyour workspace,
Gemi Hartojo (41:26):
to them.
You would explain it to them,right?
this is their toys and this isyour toy.
and explain to them, this iswhat I like to use on a daily
basis, just like when they havetheir toys.
we can even show it to them inthe fact like, Hey, there are
special places for your toys.
And like, you know, kids, theylike their thing.
They do.
They like their thing.
(41:47):
They don't like their stuff tobe ruined.
Mifrah Mahroof (41:49):
Yeah.
Gemi Hartojo (41:50):
And it's a vice versa thing, right?
We just, it's just like, Oh,we're not going to just throw
your stuff into a box.
No, no, let's put it reallynicely.
Let's put your cars in order.
Let's put their stuff in order.
like even my sons, they havethat tendency to like, after a
while, they're like, Oh, no, Ihave my thing.
I want my thing.
So it's like, they then turnlearn how to want their thing.
(42:12):
Oh, because mama has her thing.
Mifrah Mahroof (42:14):
Hmm.
I see.
Gemi Hartojo (42:15):
In fact, sometimes when I'm like, out of sync,
let's say, I didn't spend thehour of working, and they come
out and I just play with them.
But mama, you need to go do yourthing because I'm doing my
thing.
So, isn't that interesting?
Mifrah Mahroof (42:29):
That is
Gemi Hartojo (42:30):
and I will tell you, like, now that they're
grown up, they really have thatsense of I need my thing.
I have my thing.
I need my order.
I need to be organized.
Everything has its place andit's all this chaos.
Mifrah Mahroof (42:43):
Hmm.
Gemi Hartojo (42:43):
It doesn't have to be chaos.
Children are chaotic because weare chaotic.
Mifrah Mahroof (42:47):
Hmm.
I think we need another episodeof how to not be chaotic, but
yeah.
Well, goes back to setting down.
Going back to setting down senseof genius
Gemi Hartojo (42:57):
here's the thing.
let's say, I would say you'reprobably very close to the
environment that makes you likemakes you tick, right?
Because, you're doing this workright now, you're on this
podcast, you've invited me, Ican already feel the energy is
very, quite flowy.
But here's the thing, when youeat, when you do this, and
you're like, I'm working on anoil rig, for example, I know
(43:19):
this is quite extreme, but youactually love art.
Like, This is just a compass foryou, Qibla, right?
For you to say, Oh, I'm not inthe right place.
Mifrah Mahroof (43:30):
I see.
And
Gemi Hartojo (43:33):
yeah.
and this thing here applies tohow, even if you want to run
your business, the career thatyou want to make, even the life
choices that you want to make.
This here is a really greatlitmus test.
Mifrah Mahroof (43:47):
that helps you organize the chaos eventually.
Gemi Hartojo (43:50):
It's going to not be chaos because you're in flow.
When you're in flow, literallythe houses of women, we are so
powerful.
This is where the feminineenergy is.
We are the chaos.
We are the chaos, right?
Because like you just saidearlier, our energy is like what
feminine energy is likeunpredictable.
Yeah, it is.
Mifrah Mahroof (44:11):
it is.
Gemi Hartojo (44:12):
And so when there's chaos, we're the one in
chaos.
and believe me, just take amoment, ladies, sisters and
whoever's listening and justthink about it.
When your family's jacked up,everything's crazy.
Actually, you are the one who isnot grounded.
You are the one who is notfeeling it.
I've seen this even with my ownlife.
(44:33):
When my husband and my kids arelike, Oh, wait, I'm like, what
is, Oh, I'm the one in chaos.
Mifrah Mahroof (44:38):
there's a lot to think.
Gemi Hartojo (44:40):
Okay.
There's a lot to think, or is ita lot to feel?
Mifrah Mahroof (44:44):
Yeah,
Gemi Hartojo (44:44):
I love how you went straight to thinking.
Oh Gosh, I have so much to undo,in
Mifrah Mahroof (44:50):
terms of like, being very into the whole, work
style and the productivity styleand all of these checklists.
I have a lot of checklists aswell.
And just trying to find a waythat it works.
in a way that I can flow throughthem.
There's a lot of unlearning thatI have to do.
So for example, this interview,so one of the things I have been
(45:14):
trying to implement more ininterviews is that I would have
a few questions this time andjust let the conversation flow.
that's another one I've beentrying, but it is scary though.
It's scary to let that chaoticenergy flow, because you're
scared as, because it makes youfeel vulnerable.
It makes you feel like, where isthat going to lead?
And how is that going to make melook or what are people going to
(45:36):
think?
So there are these things thathappen.
Gemi Hartojo (45:38):
And so
Mifrah Mahroof (45:39):
so that's why there's this need to structure
it.
Oh, I have these 10 questions.
That's it.
Gemi Hartojo (45:43):
yes, yeah, so that's control, right?
So this is the part of us thathas been told that we need to
control, because we see it, it'smodeled, right?
Oh, if you do this, then this iswhat happens.
If you do this, and this is whathappens.
But now then we think of, Ithink there was an ustada that
actually said, the thing thatyou hear and you obey, that's
(46:05):
your lord, right?
I hear that I have to do thisresult, or I hear that people
are going to say such and such,and that's what I'm going to do
to make sure that I'm going todo the thing.
So these things, external thingsare going to be okay.
And hold on, then we'repracticing shirk, right?
It's a form of shirk.
Because who should we hear andobey?
(46:26):
Allah.
Allah didn't say you need tohave checklists to be successful
in your life.
No.
If in fact, we were just inDalia's group where, no, our
compass is the Salat.
What's the important things, theelements, the big rocks in our
lives, get those done.
And Allah says it actually, allthe Hufadh, just like watch
this, like all the Hufadh, thosewho are truly, in like the
(46:51):
memorize the Quran, but theyalso like manifest it.
They're also doctors, lawyers,they're successful in their
lives.
They're rich, right?
It's very contradictory to like,Oh no, you've got to study all
day long.
I've seen it and I'm like, Whoa,what?
We've got it all wrong.
we've bought into the Kool Aidof Oh, if I work hard and I get
(47:13):
a degree, I'm going to get ajob.
who's going to give you a job?
Mifrah Mahroof (47:16):
Yeah, allah SWT,
Gemi Hartojo (47:17):
the one who gives everything, you know,
Mifrah Mahroof (47:18):
does it mean that, so this whole thing about
chaos, right?
Does it mean that it's okay tobe chaotic?
Or it's a thing?
Gemi Hartojo (47:27):
it's actually important for us to be chaotic.
Let me ask you, do you findyourself productive when you
just do one thing?
Mifrah Mahroof (47:34):
Ah, no, no, not really.
Gemi Hartojo (47:37):
not really.
No, Now.
If you ask a guy, they can onlybe productive when they do one
thing.
Mifrah Mahroof (47:43):
Yeah,
Gemi Hartojo (47:44):
everybody here, just go ask your husband or your
son or your family member that'sa male and tell them, take the
trash out, do the laundry, goboil some eggs.
They cannot do it for the lifeof them.
You have to say, take out thetrash and then stop.
Go boil eggs.
Once the boil eggs are done,then you can tell them to do
(48:04):
something else.
Other than that, no, no, no, no.
I challenge you.
I live with guys, so I know.
They're like, what are yousaying?
What are you saying?
Mifrah Mahroof (48:13):
this has been a lot of fun and a lot of flow.
And a lot of unlearning, becauseit's like, as we say this, even
when I say checklist, so inorder to make a podcast, in
order to make an episode, I havea checklist from start to end,
but my checklist, that documentthat I have, my checklist is,
(48:33):
it's a mess.
there's so much stuff that I'mwriting everywhere and I feel
bad about that before, but nowI'm like, Hey, that's fine.
That's part of creativity.
So the checklists are there, butthere's also a lot of stuff that
I've written up, like stuff thatI wanted to ask you and stuff we
could talk about and what makesme curious about you.
And it's just messy, but I thinkwith messy is where these great
(48:57):
things happen as well.
So
Gemi Hartojo (48:59):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
So what would you take away fromthis
Mifrah Mahroof (49:03):
what,
Gemi Hartojo (49:04):
Look at me.
I can't take it because I'm thecoach.
Right?
I'm like, what do you take awayfrom this
Mifrah Mahroof (49:08):
What did I take, away from this?
it's really understanding that,the feminine energy is very
different to the way we've beentaught.
We've been taught growing upreally about, what it means to
achieve what it means to workthe working styles and all of
these things.
we really need to sit down andask ourselves, I need to ask
(49:29):
myself, like when I startputting myself down thinking,
Oh, why am I so chaotic?
why are my notes so chaotic?
And why is my husband's notes soneat and so like, I don't know
how he does it.
it's just like one thing andIt's like,
Gemi Hartojo (49:43):
Yeah, because there's, physically they don't
have the highway that we have.
Mifrah Mahroof (49:49):
So it's just learn to be, accept that.
And then working with it ratherthan constantly working against
it.
I guess that
Gemi Hartojo (49:56):
is my biggest take Yes.
Yes.
Mifrah Mahroof (49:59):
work against my nature and work with it so that
we can be able to, do the greatthings and do the things that we
want to achieve as ultimatelylike high achieving females, I
guess.
Gemi Hartojo (50:11):
Yeah.
No,
Mifrah Mahroof (50:12):
most importantly, slaves of Allah
SWT.
That's what it's coming down to.
Gemi Hartojo (50:16):
Yeah.
it's very like eyeopening andalso discerning because you're
like, wow.
Like you say, you have tounlearn things.
I would like to stay away fromlike negative, like terminology.
It's just Hey, you know what?
now I know.
How about that?
Now I know.
Now I know.
Yeah.
and I want to make like a,disclaimer, I am also still
(50:38):
learning about the feminine andmasculine energy.
A lot of my own learning comesfrom, Sister Rosie, Rosalian
Batool, she's fantastic.
And you guys can all, learn moreabout, that because that is her
focus, So I really don't wantto, take that away.
cause it's, she's been very,quite helpful.
And the way she explains it isvery relatable to, I think our
Muslim community.
(51:00):
and it's much needed.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Mifrah Mahroof (51:03):
Hmm.
So.
Any, any final words todaybefore we end off?
Gemi Hartojo (51:08):
Final words, what will I say?
I would say, before knee jerkreactions, like throwing away
the baby with the bathwater.
I think that's the terminology.
take a moment.
Do the zone of genius.
I really highly recommend it foreverybody to do that work.
Just see where are thingsaligned.
(51:30):
Is this aligned with my lifepurpose, my dunya purpose, my
ultimate life purpose, toworship Allah?
and how do I feel about where Iam today?
this is really important tolike, oh, well, I have to do it.
Once any, any words with haveto, should, could, need, those
are all.
External energies,
Mifrah Mahroof (51:50):
Hmm.
Gemi Hartojo (51:52):
And if you're like, I feel like I just want to
do nothing.
Well, do nothing.
And the thing is that sometimeswe take it to extreme.
Don't take it to extreme.
Do nothing for five minutes.
Do nothing for 10 minutes.
Mifrah Mahroof (52:04):
Yeah,
Gemi Hartojo (52:04):
Maybe that's really what you need, right?
Mifrah Mahroof (52:06):
Yeah.
Gemi Hartojo (52:07):
Not, I want to, that's it, I'm going to quit and
like run away.
No, no, because when we're inthat state, we're coming from a
state of like frantic and I'mburnt out and making decisions,
there's only going to be regret.
We're supposed to like, oh, thisis where I'm at.
like Google Maps.
Oh, I still have like five hoursto go.
Okay.
Relax.
(52:28):
Right?
You're to my destination.
You know where you are.
What are my next steps?
And that's it.
I'm just going to move a littlebit by little,
Mifrah Mahroof (52:38):
Little bit by little.
True.
Gemi Hartojo (52:40):
a little bit
Mifrah Mahroof (52:40):
Well, Thank you so much, Gemi, for coming
Gemi Hartojo (52:43):
You're welcome.
Mifrah Mahroof (52:44):
Hey everyone, that wraps up another episode of
the Muslim Life Hackers podcast.
I really hope you enjoyed ourchat today and got some great
takeaways from it.
If you like what you heard anddon't want to miss out on our
next conversations, hit thatsubscribe button.
It really means a lot to us andhelps us grow the show.
And you know what?
If you're feeling extra generoustoday, drop us a review or a
rating.
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
(53:05):
Thank you again for tuning inuntil next time, keep striving
and getting better every day.
We have been given a gift that we didn't ask for,
from Allah that is specific tous that makes us truly unique.
There's literally only one ofyou in this world.
Mifrah Mahroof (00:12):
As-salamu alaykum and welcome to the
Muslim Life Hackers podcast.
I'm your host Mifrah Mahroof,and this is the podcast where we
get better every day.
Through conversations withexperts, leaders, and inspiring
individuals.
We're going to give youactionable insights to help you
win in this life and the next.
So if you're ready to level upin every area of your life and
(00:33):
you committed to living withexcellence for the sake of your
Lord.
You're in the right place.
Get ready for insights,inspiration, and a whole lot of
life hacks.
This is a Muslim Life Hackerspodcast.
Let's dive in.
Assalamu Alaikum, Gemi.
Welcome to the show.
Gemi Hartojo (00:50):
Wa'alaikum Salam Warohmatullah, how are you?
Mifrah Mahroof (00:52):
Good, Alhamdulillah.
How are you?
Gemi Hartojo (00:54):
To be, I'm so excited to be here.
Thank you so
Mifrah Mahroof (00:56):
much too.
I'm so excited to have you here.
Let's start off with thequestion that we ask all our
guests.
Can you start off with anintroduction and tell us about
yourself.
Gemi Hartojo (01:05):
Asalamu Alaikum Warahmatullah.
I'm Coach Gemi and I am a Muslimwoman business coach.
I help, aspiring entrepreneurs,seasoned entrepreneurs and their
teams, as well as I help, peoplewho want to be intrapreneurs
within their organization tolevel up and step up into their
best self, live into theirAmanah, and live into their best
(01:26):
life in this life and in thehereafter too.
Mifrah Mahroof (01:29):
Awesome.
Well, there's a lot to unpackingthat because that's like an
overall mission.
So it's like, some of the thingsthat we spoke about before we
interviewed, the record buttonwas around high achieving women.
So this is something that we canboth relate to actually, like we
want to get out there, get ourgoals and achieve all of these
(01:51):
things.
But there's something thathappens to a lot of high
achieving women is the wholetopic of burnout.
And, I want to know what yourthoughts on this, like, what are
you seeing?
Gemi Hartojo (02:03):
I would say across the board, it's very
interesting.
I coach both Muslim and nonMuslim women too, because even
though I do target only Muslim,but there's both that come to
me.
And what I'm seeing across theboard is that, women are finding
themselves in hair pullingsituations, meaning that they're
so, they've hit a wall and theyare finding themselves on that
(02:24):
hamster wheel in a way that islike telling them that they're
not able, they don't have achoice to get out of it, right?
To get out of that hamster wheeland what I've noticed is that
It's bleeding to all parts oftheir lives.
They are not performing the waythey want to do.
(02:44):
They want to perform at work.
they feel, their bodiesactually, super tired as well,
right?
So they're not able to selfregulate.
They're not able to, beresilient.
They're not able to, just goingto kind of hold it all in.
they all kind of like look thepart and they're, performing
well, but when they come to me,they're at a point where they're
(03:05):
just like, they're at a wall andeverything is kind of like
spiraling.
They don't know where they'regoing.
And why am I here?
And all these questions, rightthere that are coming up, they
know that there's somethingmore, they know that there's
something more to their life.
And they're like, do I justlike, quit the job and run away
(03:26):
and kind of do my own thing.
And I'll just say that that'snot really a solution, right?
we need to kind of likeidentify, what do they really
need?
And so the first question Iusually ask is, what do you
need?
What do you need?
Mifrah Mahroof (03:41):
Hmm.
So you touched up on that, firstof all jobs, right?
So you're finding that a lot ofwomen are burning out in their
jobs.
So, is that something that'sspecific to women or do men also
face that?
Gemi Hartojo (03:58):
I think, not as much in men.
Okay, why why would you saythat's a case?
I think men's perspectives arecompletely different.
They have a masculine energy.
They like the doing, right?
They like the task, orientation.
I think the biggest challengewith men in a workspace is
they're trying to become thatalpha male, right?
(04:19):
There's, and then that's atendency of the, you know, we're
going to talk about a little bitabout the masculine and the
feminine energy.
And what I found out is that,the systems today, workspace,
corporate workspace, I mean,life in general has been
designed by guys, right?
Where it's industrial, which islike one step to the next, you
(04:40):
know, everything has to be inorder.
At seven o'clock, you have ameeting at this, you have this,
you have a deadline, you have tocreate this.
And there's a lot of to do liststhat come out of this, where men
thrive in that environment,because they just.
They're task oriented, right?
Mifrah Mahroof (04:54):
But that's very interesting because that's how
life is.
Like, that's the expectationthat we have task orientated.
Like there isn't really anyother way to get it done.
other than that way.
Gemi Hartojo (05:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And do you know why?
Mifrah Mahroof (05:08):
what aids that?
Gemi Hartojo (05:10):
Because it's result oriented.
Mifrah Mahroof (05:12):
But then how else would you get results?
Gemi Hartojo (05:15):
So here's the thing.
There is a dichotomy that I'vekind of tested and I have gone
through my software, so when menare given, because they're very
one minded, one track minded,and physiologically, they don't
have the same sort of ability tomultitask as women do.
Right?
So task oriented is the kind ofway to do however, women don't
(05:37):
operate that way.
Women have the ability, gosisters, right?
We have the ability to dolaundry.
boil pasta, have a meeting, gowrite something, check on the
kids, we have this innateability.
And, actually, When we're inthis flow, right?
(06:00):
Okay.
Yeah.
We're going to do all thesethings.
It actually allows us.
And I don't know, I've seen thisactually with a lot of, women
professionals that I've workedwith is that when we are able to
have that outlet of like thedifferent elements, it makes us
actually be able to concentrate.
And we're told like, Oh no, youhave to sit one step at a time.
(06:21):
Guess what?
I'm not feeling it.
I don't feel like writing thatreport at this moment because
it's just not coming to me.
Have you ever said to yourself,I just don't have the flow?
Mifrah Mahroof (06:34):
Always.
I have experienced that.
Gemi Hartojo (06:38):
right?
I just don't feel like it.
Mifrah Mahroof (06:41):
But I thought that something's wrong with me
and my laziness.
Gemi Hartojo (06:45):
because we're told, no, no, you need to do
point A first, point B first,point C first.
And many men think, oh, womenare crazy because they're just
not concentrating, becausethey're doing all kinds of
things at one go.
But actually, in that chaos,actually is clarity, because
(07:06):
women and men are completelydifferent.
We go with flow.
And on top of that, we have thephysical capacity, by Allah, to
be able to do many things.
So, you know, their highway islike only one element at a time
that goes to do one.
It's like, do this.
Okay, let's think about it.
Have you ever asked yourhusband, Hey, you know what, can
(07:29):
you please take this, do this,do this?
It doesn't happen becausethey're overwhelmed.
I live with a bunch of boys andthis is what happens.
What are you saying?
We, I don't understand whatyou're saying.
And I'm like, well, while you'rehaving that meeting, you can run
the machine.
you can do all these things.
and I will tell you, because myteam is all women, we sometimes
(07:51):
have meetings while we'recooking.
And I will tell you some of thebest ideas, some of the best
solutions have come out of thosemeetings.
So what does that tell you?
Mifrah Mahroof (08:05):
that tells me a lot.
Actually.
It tells me that the way theworkplace is set up today is not
very, supportive for thefeminine energy, So it also
makes you wonder if thestructures that we have today,
the corporate world, the way weare told to approach
productivity, for example, isall very masculine, energy,
(08:26):
right?
it's like a masculine way to do,do things.
And then you think about thefeminine energy and it's just
chaotic.
It's like, I just wonder, ifthere's just chaos, then how do
you even get anything done?
Gemi Hartojo (08:39):
Well, here's the thing.
Inherently, both men and womenhave feminine and masculine
energy.
It's not just because we'rewomen we just have feminine
energy.
No.
Actually, we need our masculineenergy to get things done.
However, We need to use thatmasculine energy to set
ourselves up for success.
Mifrah Mahroof (08:56):
Right,
Gemi Hartojo (08:57):
the analogy is like, you know, you want to work
out every single day, but youknow, we got to put our abayas
on, we got to put our clothingon and in the house, we're not
using that or whatever.
And comes time, we got to workout, but we're downstairs and
our clothing is upstairs.
Right?
So what do we do to setourselves up for success?
Is we, in the closet, we haveour running clothes or whatever
(09:19):
clothes ready to go.
And this is an example ofutilizing the masculine energy
to set it up for the success sothat when we feel like running,
we can use it.
Mifrah Mahroof (09:33):
Ah, right.
That's an interesting one.
So, are you trying to say thatyou wouldn't set a time?
Gemi Hartojo (09:40):
Well, sometimes let's say you have a child.
The child is once had a, vomitedat the time that you're supposed
to go.
Hmm.
And I've noticed even for myselfthat to do lists no longer work.
And even with my team, I'll tellyou, this is very interesting.
And we tried this for an entireyear.
(10:01):
We used to have a to do list,like, all these things that we
had to do.
It was tch, all these things.
We did not get anything done.
we were like, why, why do wehave all these to do lists?
We did all these, and we didthem, like we've kind of forced
ourselves to do it, but it waslike as if we were spinning our
wheels.
Mifrah Mahroof (10:18):
Hmm.
Gemi Hartojo (10:19):
So we switched gears and we went into, you know
what, we're going to have ourmeetings while we're cooking or
we're doing whatever.
It is what it is.
life happens.
And we chose two, maximum threecore things that we needed to
get done that day.
In one year, we got literallymultiply that by three by 360
(10:44):
days, 360.
It all got done.
Mifrah Mahroof (10:49):
Hmm, but it
Gemi Hartojo (10:50):
improvement and we saw change.
Did we get stuff done?
Absolutely.
But was it in a to do?
I gotta do a little checklist.
It didn't work.
let's think about yourself andhow you work.
Your best work isn't achecklist.
Yeah when I actually think abouthow
Mifrah Mahroof (11:11):
it works, I have a checklist, and then I do
everything that's not on thechecklist.
But I get that done.
Yes,
Gemi Hartojo (11:19):
and so, what this is tell us?
And it tells me too, right?
We need to be very clear on whatwe call the big rocks.
You know, I think Stephen Coveytalks about this, you know, The
seven habits of highly effectivePeople Like, oh the big rocks.
And Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'alaactually tells us the same.
What are the most nonnegotiables that we have to do?
And this includes our work,right?
(11:40):
So for example, you are inmarketing.
Okay, I know that at certaintimes of the year they're going
to have like post analysis andput it, whatever.
that's a little goal or a littleproject you put up on the wall.
But you know, and you giveyourself time and you set
yourself up for success to cometowards that.
(12:02):
And you do it when you have thefeeling, because let's say you
have to write a analysis thattakes like insight, right?
That takes time.
Mifrah Mahroof (12:11):
Yeah.
Gemi Hartojo (12:12):
Rather than knee jerking around, and, the
masculine way of doing it, likethis corporate way of doing it,
the checklist is just a control.
They want to control, right?
because that's what guys do.
Like, I mean, not guys do, butlike what the masculine energy
does, which is to control andthe corporate system is meant to
control
Mifrah Mahroof (12:31):
Isn't it?
Hmm,
Gemi Hartojo (12:32):
Think about it
Mifrah Mahroof (12:33):
yeah.
Very much so.
That's very interesting.
So would you say that is whyyou're finding a lot of, high
achieving women who are in acorporate setting and in their
jobs?
So we haven't got to the part ofentrepreneurs or high achieving
mothers who take on a lot, butjust coming back to this
example, this is why you seethem burn out eventually.
(12:54):
So they're coming into the job,they're doing it very well.
And they actually like going up,up, up.
And then at a point there.
Burnout.
Gemi Hartojo (13:03):
Yeah, because they're not fulfilled right?
Because flow is a is a sense offulfillment, right?
Mifrah Mahroof (13:09):
Hmm.
You
Gemi Hartojo (13:09):
feel right.
It's not, it's not about how youthink.
it's really interesting towatch, my high performers go
from, well, I think that weshould do it like this.
I think we have to do it likethis.
That's masculine energy, right?
Because that's trying to fillthe checklist.
Whereas the feminine energy is,you know, kind of talking about
how you feel.
(13:30):
It's that flow.
And you know, it's just quiteinteresting.
And I myself, and I'm goingthrough that too, learning about
the feminine energy.
I was like, I'm not an expert infeminine energy and I'm going
through that too.
So it's quite interesting how,when you're in flow, whatever
you get thrown at you, you'relike, yeah, that's a lot.
Amazing.
(13:50):
Thank you.
And you know that it's going toget done.
Cause let me ask you, how manytimes have you.
gone through the day and you'relike, Oh my God, yeah, I have to
take the kid.
I have to like, there's so manythings that I have to do.
But when you start to lean intoyourself and say, it's got to
get done, it does get done,doesn't it?
Mifrah Mahroof (14:11):
Yeah.
When I actually just sit withmyself and say, Hey, it's going
to be okay.
Yeah.
And it gets done.
Gemi Hartojo (14:18):
Yeah, it doesn't get done in the order that
somebody else wants necessarily,right?
Mifrah Mahroof (14:23):
Okay.
So I guess now we're talkingabout this concept of flow and
how we can best, work as highachieving females.
Now, I was wondering, If someonedid reach a point of burnout
because they've been working ina way that's not, in line with
the way that would best suitthem.
(14:44):
And so at that point, what is itthey need to do?
Because you mentioned earlierhow some people reach that point
of burnout and they're like, I'mgoing to leave my job.
And you'll say, no, that's not asolution.
and there's more to it.
what can someone who's goingthrough burnout do at that
point?
is it just about strategies?
Is it about understanding howthey work?
Gemi Hartojo (15:06):
well, the reason why I say it's not necessarily
the solution to just to quityour job, because, not all women
or not all people like havethat, luxury to just get up and
quit, Of course,
Mifrah Mahroof (15:18):
exactly
Gemi Hartojo (15:19):
right, you know, financially and all the
responsibilities that go withit, right,
Mifrah Mahroof (15:23):
my suggestion is
Gemi Hartojo (15:25):
always to sit down and take stock Sit down and find
out first.
What your life purpose is,right?
So we have the ultimate lifepurpose as a Muslim to worship
Allah But you know, there's likeoh people like I have to go like
worship Allah all day.
Yes, we are worshipping Allahall day, but to take it further
Allah has given you Passions,specific passions that you like,
(15:47):
has been having given youspecific skills that you have,
right?
and Allah's given you gifts thatare only yours.
So let's say as an example,right?
Oh, I'm really passionate abouthelping people.
I'm really passionate aboutcommunication.
I'm really passionate aboutscience, for example, right?
(16:08):
And you know, their skills arelike, I'm really great at math.
Well, there's a lot of peoplewho are great at math or a lot
of people who are great atwriting what have you.
but the true Amana, the muwahib,God, it's a, you know, Al-Wahab
right, going back to Al-WahabAl-Wahab is the gift, right?
we have been given a gift thatwe didn't ask for, from Allah
(16:32):
that is specific to us thatmakes us truly unique.
There's literally only one ofyou in this world.
And how that works is you makepeople happy.
Okay, you could be in tech.
You're great at math.
But your thing is making peoplehappy.
Like when people work with youor people are with you, people
(16:52):
just enjoy working with you.
now we sit down and look at, youknow, your zone of genius.
I like to call this a zone ofgenius because it actually
allows you to kind of harnesslike all three elements and
then, apply it to Either yourjob or you are going to realize,
oh, maybe this is not the rightenvironment for that.
(17:14):
So the way I like to look at itis like, once you find out what
your zone of genius is, let'ssay you're passionate, you know
what your skills are and yourgifts are to make people happy.
Well, maybe the environmentneeds to be.
Let's say in education or maybeit's in a more, less, maybe
private company that's lessdriven by Stockholders or, you
(17:35):
know, stock prices, which is alot more stressful, right?
Because it's all about makingsure that you hit those specific
goals.
Yeah yeah those targets when Italk about the zone of genius, I
think people call it like theIkigai, people sometimes use the
Ikigai.
I don't know if you're familiarwith that, I honestly don't like
the Ikigai, because there's acomponent there that says, what
(17:57):
does the world need?
And here we go.
That is a trying to fit in.
We're not trying to fit in.
Mifrah Mahroof (18:04):
Okay.
Gemi Hartojo (18:05):
to be ourselves.
We need to be ourselves, please,because literally, there's only
one of you, there's only one ofme, maybe we do the same thing,
but we do it in our way, and sothere, technically there's no
competition, this is like anapproach that I really like to,
that has worked actually for mygirls, No, we don't need to look
(18:25):
at the competition.
There is no competition becausethere's only one of you.
How can you be?
It's like apples to oranges.
Are you going to like, areapples going to compete with
oranges?
No.
Mifrah Mahroof (18:33):
tell me, help me understand zone of genius
better.
you were saying there wasskills, there was, um,
Gemi Hartojo (18:39):
Um, your passion
Mifrah Mahroof (18:41):
your skills and passion, okay,
Gemi Hartojo (18:43):
and then, and then your
Mifrah Mahroof (18:44):
helping people and gifts, so gifts meaning,
like something that you areuniquely given.
Gemi Hartojo (18:51):
Something that you're uniquely given, but the
way to kind of find out, whatyour gifts are is to ask
yourself, what do people usuallysay about, when they connect
with me, when they're in my, inmy, company, when they work with
me, for example.
So you want to try?
Can we try?
You want to try with you?
Mifrah Mahroof (19:08):
okay,
Gemi Hartojo (19:09):
let's, do this.
Mifrah Mahroof (19:09):
let's
Gemi Hartojo (19:10):
Okay.
Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna geta, like,
Mifrah Mahroof (19:14):
I'm nervous,
Gemi Hartojo (19:14):
piece.
Mifrah Mahroof (19:15):
let's do this.
Gemi Hartojo (19:16):
That's okay.
You can do b roll.
And take it out if you don'twant to.
All right, we're gonna playhere.
So, I got this.
I'm making this little thing.
Mifrah Mahroof (19:29):
Okay, so there's three, there's three circles for
those who are listening to thison audio.
Three circles that areoverlapping.
Okay.
Gemi Hartojo (19:35):
mm hmm.
It's like a Venn diagram, right?
So, tell me what your passionsare.
Mifrah Mahroof (19:41):
Well, my passions are really, about
empowering and uplifting, makingpeople more independent in a way
that they only have to depend onAllah subhanahu wa ta'ala, self
sufficient, we can say.
Gemi Hartojo (19:55):
Alright,
Mifrah Mahroof (19:58):
So rather than it's, I think the thing that I'm
really intrigued by is like,okay, you can give someone a
fish or you can teach them howto fish.
So it's like, that would besomething around the whole thing
about becoming more selfsufficient, empowered and in
whichever in different areas.
So yeah, very simplistic though.
(20:18):
I don't have anythingcomplicated.
And this is the first thingthat's coming to mind.
So for those listening, I didnot have anything.
Gemi Hartojo (20:26):
And she did not know she was gonna do
Mifrah Mahroof (20:27):
this going to
Gemi Hartojo (20:27):
this
Mifrah Mahroof (20:27):
me on the spot.
So
Gemi Hartojo (20:31):
All right, and so tell me what your skills are
Mifrah Mahroof (20:34):
my skills is tech.
Gemi Hartojo (20:36):
What does that mean sorry, what does that mean?
Mifrah Mahroof (20:39):
Well, what does tech mean?
Tech
Gemi Hartojo (20:42):
Yeah for you Yeah, Podcasting is
Mifrah Mahroof (20:47):
one.
Cloud based technologies.
I mean, things that are, online,I find it very easy to learn,
pick up automations, teachpeople how to use, whatever's
out there, technical stuffthat's out there to, actually
also help them understand it.
So I actually enjoy, sittingwith someone who's non technical
(21:08):
and help them understand thepower of the tech to help them.
and I have that patience forthat.
Gemi Hartojo (21:16):
That's skill right there.
Mifrah Mahroof (21:17):
Yeah.
So
Gemi Hartojo (21:19):
Okay, so now tell me what do people say when they
interact with you, when theywork with you, and you can even
start like with your family,your friends, your colleagues at
work.
What do they usually say?
Mifrah Mahroof (21:33):
Well, they say that I bring energy, like I make
Gemi Hartojo (21:37):
them Okay,
Mifrah Mahroof (21:37):
happy.
I mean, yeah, around that.
I mean, That's what comes tomind, right?
Right?
actually, I'm always up tosomething interesting, something
random.
I mean, my friends would say,I'm doing something one day, and
then the next week they'd belike, Oh, Mifrah's up to this,
or Mifrah's in this part of theworld, or Mifrah's, like,
(21:58):
jumping into a sinkhole orsomething,
Gemi Hartojo (22:02):
so you are, I wouldn't say random, but it's
like adventurous.
Mifrah Mahroof (22:07):
Adventurous.
Yeah.
Adventurous.
that's a word.
But adventurous in also the workthat I do as well.
Gemi Hartojo (22:13):
wow, look at that.
tell me, what environment wouldyou like to be in that you think
these passion skills and giftslike could come to play?
Mifrah Mahroof (22:25):
it's definitely in an environment where there's
autonomy.
So I do have a somewhat say inwhat I'm doing
Gemi Hartojo (22:33):
Uh huh,
Mifrah Mahroof (22:33):
and in environment where I can practice
my creativity and not be veryconstricted by that
Gemi Hartojo (22:41):
uh huh,
Mifrah Mahroof (22:42):
so I can test out different things.
So there is that whole thatadventurousness in the new ideas
I might wanna try, for example,
Gemi Hartojo (22:51):
uh huh, and
Mifrah Mahroof (22:52):
having that freedom to explore it.
So I think these are the kind ofenvironments, these are the kind
of things that I enjoy when I'mworking.
Gemi Hartojo (23:00):
yeah, so this would be an environment, so the
environment has to be safe too,right?
Accommodating, no judgment,sounds like you're an
entrepreneur.
Mifrah Mahroof (23:09):
the diagnosis?
Gemi Hartojo (23:10):
will, but we're going to play, we're going to
play here what your zone ofgenius is, right?
so one thing I like to say isthat anytime anybody says like,
I want to label my life purposeor what my zone of genius is,
it's all playable.
And you're going to notice, onceyou start to get into this habit
of doing this, that there aregoing to be seasons of that in
your life.
(23:30):
When you first get out ofschool, it's a different kind of
life purpose or a zone ofgenius, right?
it's just gonna, it's just goingto change.
And so this is something that'smalleable, that's living, and
you get to play with it all thetime.
But to know it, is veryimportant because then it can
become a compass in you tryingto find the flow that you're
(23:51):
looking for.
What you had just described tome, when you have all of these
elements come to play, you arein a complete flow.
Mifrah Mahroof (23:58):
Hmm.
That's very interesting.
And the fact that you actuallymentioned that things like that
is malleable.
Cause I find when you go alongthat talk of a personality test
or your introverted,extroverted, it's like you're
boxed into something.
And that box for me is veryconstricting.
I
Gemi Hartojo (24:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Mifrah Mahroof (24:17):
just thought it's just, yeah, that's what I
think.
And it's like, no, like we growas people as well.
Gemi Hartojo (24:22):
because sometimes you want to eat something spicy,
and tomorrow you want to eatsomething salty.
Yeah.
Mifrah Mahroof (24:29):
that's true.
Okay.
So that's a very interesting wayto approach it.
So finding that zone of genius.
So you can find, am I in theright place right now?
That is respecting those thingsthat are important to me right
now.
Gemi Hartojo (24:42):
Yeah.
Mifrah Mahroof (24:44):
Interesting.
So,
Gemi Hartojo (24:45):
to kind of bring it all together is what we want
to do is we want to say, okay,my zone of genius is something
along the lines where I have theautonomy, and a sandbox and the
safety to, teach, help people.
or women or whoever it is thatyou want to do or even yourself.
(25:07):
you can do this in an officesetting too.
that is taking very difficultthings, such as tech and distill
it for those who don'tunderstand it.
And you're going to do this withabsolutely high energy.
And an invitation to go on anadventure, like a permission,
because you are going throughthis yourself, you actually are
(25:31):
giving other people permission,to experiment.
And here's the thing.
Now we talk about setting,right?
We talk about like environment.
you do sound like anentrepreneur because the
autonomy and the freedom isimportant.
However, I think that there'salso an element of safety that
is, needs to be honored here.
And what is that safety?
That safety is probablyfinancial, financial stability,
(25:51):
knowing that you have a place togo, knowing that there's a
paycheck coming in and all theseother elements.
And this is why the, going backto our first Question about when
you hit a wall, don't justleave, take a moment and do this
actually exercise and say, Hmm,where in the company that I'm
at?
Could I do this?
And it doesn't mean that you'regoing to go into new role, but
(26:13):
to really to get creative andsay, where in my that 20 percent
and many companies do that,right?
These days they're like, okay,you could have 10 percent or 20
percent of that time to dosomething that's within the
company that can be helpful.
For example, maybe, digitaltransformation is a real thing,
right?
In organizations andorganizations buy software and
(26:35):
tools for automation for to bemore efficient, but a lot of
people don't want to use it.
And actually, I think Martek orsomething like that had a huge
article about that, thatcompanies are spending so much
money on this, but there's noadoption rate.
Maybe this could be anopportunity for you to open the
(26:56):
door and say, Hey guys, I couldhelp with the adoption rate of a
certain blah, blah, blah forTeam X.
Right?
It's starting small.
And so you're fulfilling thatneed or that burning need to do
this while also doing what youneed to do, right?
so it's like, Okay, well, I cando that, right?
(27:18):
Because for somebody to say,okay, I'm going to jump out the
window and become a full blownentrepreneur and not be ready
because all of a sudden there'sno set time.
There's no framework that we'reused to.
It becomes scary.
It's like you're used toswimming in a swimming pool and
(27:39):
then come on, let's go swim inthe ocean.
And then automatically you don'tswim to the middle of the ocean
because that's not what you'reused to.
Mifrah Mahroof (27:47):
Hmm.
Gemi Hartojo (27:48):
You stay close to shore.
Mifrah Mahroof (27:50):
Yeah.
Until you start building it upslowly.
Gemi Hartojo (27:54):
Yeah.
Mifrah Mahroof (27:55):
That makes a lot of sense.
Gemi Hartojo (27:57):
Yeah.
Mifrah Mahroof (27:57):
that, would be the question to ask at that
point.
if we were to take a step back,so a lot of women who are in a
corporate role or something.
And they also have other thingslike, we see they have families,
they have other responsibilitiesoutside.
how do you step back and thinkabout that?
Like say if you were a full timemother, for example, and a
(28:18):
mother does so much and.
Gemi Hartojo (28:20):
Yes.
Mifrah Mahroof (28:21):
they can also go through that burnout.
So in that case, how do you putall your family and your
children into a genius zone andmake that work?
Because with work you can dothat, right?
Gemi Hartojo (28:33):
well, you can do that.
so now we have, Islam comes toplay, right?
It's Haqq, right?
We have Haqq, right?
We have, the word Haqq is like,okay, what is my Haqq to my
body, right?
Myself, my sanity.
and then what's my Haqq to myfamily?
What does that look like?
And really sit down.
(28:53):
What does that actually looklike?
Oh, no, I have to give my time.
I have to give my time.
That's what they're, oh, I haveto do this.
I have to hold on.
hold on.
Hold on.
Even our prophet.
Muhammad Sallallahu AlaihiWasallam goes to his cave and
takes a moment
Mifrah Mahroof (29:08):
Yeah.
Gemi Hartojo (29:09):
from his four wives, the children, the chaos,
the fight, imagine that, right?
But he took time to himself andAllah didn't punish him for
that, right?
That's Haqq.
it's going back to pouring intoyourself.
But I think the pouring intoyourself, from a Western context
(29:29):
or non Islamic context, it'slike, Oh, get massages, do what,
you want, live your life, thatkind of deal.
Whereas hold on, what reallywhat we need is feeding our
soul, time for ourself.
Contemplation.
Because actually the owner oftime, they get, Oh, I don't have
time.
Well, hold on.
who owns time?
Allah.
(29:50):
Okay.
Have you ever had that situationwhere, Oh my God, I have to go
to a meeting and I have to pray.
Oh my God, I only have fiveminutes.
you have already have this,like, I gotta go to that
meeting.
So I'm rushing with Allah, buthold on.
Allah is the owner of time andtry this.
I will recommend this.
You have five minutes and yousay, you know what, Allah, you
(30:10):
are the creator of time.
I'm going to pray because I wantto worship Allah.
I swear that five minutes youjust relax and it's not really
five minutes because technicallyAllah owns the time.
Does that make sense?
Because the feeling of rushingis actually just in our head.
Because we've been told fiveminutes is not enough time.
(30:34):
But who made time?
Mifrah Mahroof (30:35):
but then at the end, five minutes passes though,
in both situations,
Gemi Hartojo (30:39):
But the emotions are different.
That's Right.
I remember my eldest saying tome, Mama, Mama, Mama, tell me
how five minutes feels like.
And I'm like, and this guy, hewas like a little kid, right?
I'm like, what in the world?
Now that I reflect on it, that'sexactly it.
I had him actually sit down andthis is five minutes.
This is what it feels like.
(31:00):
But he couldn't still grasp theconcept.
And now I understand it becauseactually time is a feeling.
Mifrah Mahroof (31:06):
Hmm.
And
Gemi Hartojo (31:08):
Isn't it?
just try it.
Mifrah Mahroof (31:10):
also the whole concept of five minutes, it was
something that came later on inlife, like later on in human
history, the clock and the timeand all that stuff.
Gemi Hartojo (31:20):
exactly.
Mifrah Mahroof (31:22):
That's an interesting way to see it.
so what I'm hearing at thispoint is if you were approaching
work, it would be through thezone of genius, but then if you
were burning out because of allof your responsibilities that
you have, and what I mean bythat is family and all of the
different things that you have,at that point, you would take a
(31:42):
step back and go back to what isexpected from me, from Allah
SWT.
And that's the way to approachit.
Gemi Hartojo (31:49):
I would do that.
And the zone of genius, becausehere's the thing, the zone of
genius is really important forus to know who we are.
So for example, you loveteaching, right?
you want to empower, let's sayyou have kids and you know what?
Your kid doesn't know anythingabout tech.
Wow, you can really empower heror him or them, teaching them
(32:10):
the power of Tech in happy modeand may it be five minutes, 10
minutes, but you see the thingis it's like that cookie.
We just want to set, satiatethat sensation that we ate or
like we took something for us.
And actually when we do the zoneof genius, the indication that
you are in your zone of genius,it does not feel like work.
(32:31):
It feels like it's part of you.
Mifrah Mahroof (32:34):
I
Gemi Hartojo (32:34):
see.
It's very interesting you know,cause it's like, go just do that
thing.
You could do it for hours
Mifrah Mahroof (32:39):
Hmm.
Gemi Hartojo (32:39):
and you wouldn't realize it.
Right.
Yeah.
Mifrah Mahroof (32:46):
this whole exercise of zone of genius is
something that you should doregardless of whether you're a
working mum or you're staying athome with the children, because
even if you're staying at homewith the children, you're still
working.
It's
Gemi Hartojo (33:00):
Oh,
Mifrah Mahroof (33:00):
raising children.
It's not easy.
Gemi Hartojo (33:02):
Oh, absolutely not.
It is a headache.
It's like having, at leastwithin the office, you can talk
to people and say, Hey, you knowwhat, that's not cool, what you
said, or what you did.
and you need to go time yourselfout, right?
You can say that too.
I wouldn't say time yourselfout, but you can like, I need a
break, right?
you can actually say that, butwith children, that doesn't
work.
you can have a high fever andyour children just can be
(33:24):
jumping all over you.
And that's what it is.
Mifrah Mahroof (33:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I have a one and a half yearold toddler, and if I'm tired,
she doesn't understand that.
She'll still jump on my head andstart, and if I don't move, then
I get a slap on my face orsomething, and it's like, okay.
That's funny.
And I was like, I've worked incorporate, I've done all this.
(33:48):
And it's like, I think thehardest thing is just being a
mother and raising children.
Gemi Hartojo (33:53):
Oh, absolutely, I think it's highly underrated,
but going back to the zone ofgenius, now I think about it,
like, even for myself, I mayhave done it, like, inherently.
I love adventure.
I'm very curious.
I like to try everything and,one thing that I would do with
my boys, because they're boys,right?
What are you going to do?
I would do what I call AdventureSaturday.
(34:15):
What's Adventure Saturday?
Yeah, what's Adventure Saturday?
so Adventure Saturday doesn'tmean you're going on an
adventure.
It doesn't mean you're goingbackpacking.
But really, it's about tryingsomething new that nobody in the
family has ever tried.
So, for example, we would take atrip to the Asian market or to
the Arabian market, for example,and just Pick up food or
(34:37):
whatever and we go try it.
And maybe we would like it.
Maybe we don't.
But the point was to go on anadventure and it could be a
taste adventure.
It could be like, Oh yeah, we'reactually going to a field or
we're going to like, I had to doa lot of outdoor things with the
boys.
It's just kind of like, whateverthat may be.
And you can even have thechildren make a suggestion.
(34:58):
And so that's something, and itdoesn't have to be done all day.
It can be done 10 minutes.
because we always think, oh, ithas to be a thing.
No, no,
Mifrah Mahroof (35:06):
Because it goes back to the point you said
earlier about time.
Allah Subhanahuwata A'la is theowner of time.
And it's the feeling that we getfrom that 10 minutes.
Gemi Hartojo (35:14):
yeah, exactly.
And I will tell you, satiationevery time.
They're happy every time.
I'm tired.
Great.
What can I play that requiresme?
How can I play with them?
how can I play with them in away that I don't have to get up?
from my seat.
And I'll tell you the game thatI created.
It's called kick the butt.
(35:36):
So I would sit, I would lie downon the sofa and I would swing my
legs and I would say, whoever'sbutt I kick loses.
And the boys would be soexcited, they would run past me
trying to get their butts notkicked.
I didn't, And you don't
Mifrah Mahroof (35:56):
have to move for that.
Gemi Hartojo (35:59):
I just had to swing my legs on the side of the
sofa.
I'm sorry, I can just rememberthe excitement.
Mifrah Mahroof (36:07):
Yeah.
Gemi Hartojo (36:07):
so happy because I'm interacting with them and
I'm laughing to myself like thisis the dumbest thing ever
Mifrah Mahroof (36:14):
Hey, but it
Gemi Hartojo (36:14):
works But okay Yeah,
Mifrah Mahroof (36:22):
Well,
Gemi Hartojo (36:24):
ask you what would you do with your one and a half
year old If you're tired
Mifrah Mahroof (36:28):
Oh, well, if I am tired, it's a very hard one,
actually.
I don't have the answers becauseshe's my first one and I'm still
figuring things out.
So, if I'm tired.
I might go to my mom's house.
Gemi Hartojo (36:41):
How interesting!
Mifrah Mahroof (36:44):
I might go to my mom's house and like, mom, I'm
really tired right now, but thensometimes I'm really tired that
I can't even get myself in thecar to drive, to go to my mom's
house.
Gemi Hartojo (36:57):
Okay, let's use this as an example because I
think that your listeners wouldreally appreciate an example,
right?
You're so tired you can't evenlift yourself.
So what's the first questionthat we need to ask ourselves
is, what do I need?
What do I need?
So when you're tired like this,what do you need?
Mifrah Mahroof (37:15):
I think just to, sit down and take a deep breath,
Gemi Hartojo (37:19):
Okay.
Mifrah Mahroof (37:19):
in my case, sometimes I can't even sit down
cause she wants to climb on me.
So I'll have to like stand upand take a deep breath.
Gemi Hartojo (37:26):
Okay, so stand up and take a deep breath.
I wonder if this is somethingthat you could teach her.
Hey, can we take deep breathstogether?
Mifrah Mahroof (37:36):
Hmm.
Right.
I see.
Gemi Hartojo (37:38):
I will tell you children are extremely smart.
I have these boys and I'vealways worked, when they were
born, since they were like, Iwould work pretty remotely,
which was a weird thing.
But they would never impede onmy time to work.
And one thing is that no, yeah,really, really, they would never
come bother me.
Because from a very young age, Iwould talk to them as adults, I
(38:02):
said, Okay, guys, I am going togive you your time.
This is your time.
And after that, after your time,I'm gonna have my time.
And granted, it's not a longtime, because they're little, I
would get maybe maximum an hourto myself.
And this is the beauty ofactually being a stay at home
mom.
You control the time.
(38:22):
You control like how you wantyour kids to be, not in a
forceful way, but like an adult.
Mifrah Mahroof (38:29):
Hmm.
Gemi Hartojo (38:30):
I'm going to know it's now mama's playtime.
And what really killed childrenreally want is they just want to
know that you're going to givethem their time.
Think about it.
Is there a specific set timethat you set for your daughter,
every time after work,specifically for your daughter?
Mifrah Mahroof (38:48):
No, not something intentionally.
Gemi Hartojo (38:50):
Yeah.
And so this is what we probablyneed to maybe implement, Hey, I
need to take a breath, but afterI take my breath, which is five
minutes, 10 minutes, whatever itis, we are going to create a
routine.
What's the thing that she likesto do?
With you,
Mifrah Mahroof (39:05):
She likes to read.
Gemi Hartojo (39:07):
Ah, this is
Mifrah Mahroof (39:08):
Oh, she likes me reading to her.
Gemi Hartojo (39:10):
And so, you can say, Hey, I'm here, or whatever,
you appear, I'm going to take myfive minutes, explain to her,
I'm going to take my fiveminutes to breathe.
You go pick out a book that wecan read together, and I'll read
it to you.
And you can say, look, I willtake ten minutes to read to you.
Right?
So take out the kitchen timer,and so it's not like she'll come
(39:32):
with like, a novel, like maybeyou're like, I can't read the
whole book, but I can do 10minutes of reading, right?
So creating a boundary for her,because actually children, they
like boundaries.
They like it.
I mean, we like it.
Mifrah Mahroof (39:45):
interesting.
Yeah.
Gemi Hartojo (39:47):
Like we know, oh yeah, that's right, I've got 10
minutes to do this, I cansqueeze this.
We like it, it's part ofinherently who we are, right?
Mifrah Mahroof (39:55):
that's interesting.
Well, she's still a toddler, soshe's not talking yet, like not
as,
Gemi Hartojo (40:02):
And no, that's okay.
Mifrah Mahroof (40:03):
Okay.
Gemi Hartojo (40:05):
they understand, they know us.
I started with my kids werearound that age, 17 months, 17
months, like a year andsomething, yeah, yeah.
And I think, oh.
Okay, you're good over there?
Mama's now going to do herthing.
And I would come to my friend'shouse and their computers would
be like tarnished because theirchildren like went through it.
(40:25):
I'm like, wow, what happenedhere?
There's like a lack of respect,right?
But at the end of the day, do weeven respect ourselves?
Mifrah Mahroof (40:33):
Hmm.
That's true.
Do we respect ourselves?
Gemi Hartojo (40:38):
Yeah.
Do we
Mifrah Mahroof (40:39):
What does that actually look like?
Gemi Hartojo (40:41):
Well, for me, respecting ourselves is first of
all, respecting our Maker.
Right?
Because Allah SWT gave us abody, gave us a mind, gave us
abilities, capabilities, gave usthings to enjoy.
And when we respect that, we'relike, Oh, you know what?
I respect Allah and I'm going togo walk because my body needs
(41:02):
it.
Mifrah Mahroof (41:03):
Hmm.
Gemi Hartojo (41:05):
And children pick up on that respect.
Mifrah Mahroof (41:07):
So what about that part about, you're saying
how you saw computers get all,all over the place from their
children, whereas,
Gemi Hartojo (41:16):
Mm hmm.
That was
Mifrah Mahroof (41:18):
because of respect, how would it look like
to have respect in a way thatthey won't come at your
computers and just come intoyour workspace,
Gemi Hartojo (41:26):
to them.
You would explain it to them,right?
this is their toys and this isyour toy.
and explain to them, this iswhat I like to use on a daily
basis, just like when they havetheir toys.
we can even show it to them inthe fact like, Hey, there are
special places for your toys.
And like, you know, kids, theylike their thing.
They do.
They like their thing.
(41:47):
They don't like their stuff tobe ruined.
Mifrah Mahroof (41:49):
Yeah.
Gemi Hartojo (41:50):
And it's a vice versa thing, right?
We just, it's just like, Oh,we're not going to just throw
your stuff into a box.
No, no, let's put it reallynicely.
Let's put your cars in order.
Let's put their stuff in order.
like even my sons, they havethat tendency to like, after a
while, they're like, Oh, no, Ihave my thing.
I want my thing.
So it's like, they then turnlearn how to want their thing.
(42:12):
Oh, because mama has her thing.
Mifrah Mahroof (42:14):
Hmm.
I see.
Gemi Hartojo (42:15):
In fact, sometimes when I'm like, out of sync,
let's say, I didn't spend thehour of working, and they come
out and I just play with them.
But mama, you need to go do yourthing because I'm doing my
thing.
So, isn't that interesting?
Mifrah Mahroof (42:29):
That is
Gemi Hartojo (42:30):
and I will tell you, like, now that they're
grown up, they really have thatsense of I need my thing.
I have my thing.
I need my order.
I need to be organized.
Everything has its place andit's all this chaos.
Mifrah Mahroof (42:43):
Hmm.
Gemi Hartojo (42:43):
It doesn't have to be chaos.
Children are chaotic because weare chaotic.
Mifrah Mahroof (42:47):
Hmm.
I think we need another episodeof how to not be chaotic, but
yeah.
Well, goes back to setting down.
Going back to setting down senseof genius
Gemi Hartojo (42:57):
here's the thing.
let's say, I would say you'reprobably very close to the
environment that makes you likemakes you tick, right?
Because, you're doing this workright now, you're on this
podcast, you've invited me, Ican already feel the energy is
very, quite flowy.
But here's the thing, when youeat, when you do this, and
you're like, I'm working on anoil rig, for example, I know
(43:19):
this is quite extreme, but youactually love art.
Like, This is just a compass foryou, Qibla, right?
For you to say, Oh, I'm not inthe right place.
Mifrah Mahroof (43:30):
I see.
And
Gemi Hartojo (43:33):
yeah.
and this thing here applies tohow, even if you want to run
your business, the career thatyou want to make, even the life
choices that you want to make.
This here is a really greatlitmus test.
Mifrah Mahroof (43:47):
that helps you organize the chaos eventually.
Gemi Hartojo (43:50):
It's going to not be chaos because you're in flow.
When you're in flow, literallythe houses of women, we are so
powerful.
This is where the feminineenergy is.
We are the chaos.
We are the chaos, right?
Because like you just saidearlier, our energy is like what
feminine energy is likeunpredictable.
Yeah, it is.
Mifrah Mahroof (44:11):
it is.
Gemi Hartojo (44:12):
And so when there's chaos, we're the one in
chaos.
and believe me, just take amoment, ladies, sisters and
whoever's listening and justthink about it.
When your family's jacked up,everything's crazy.
Actually, you are the one who isnot grounded.
You are the one who is notfeeling it.
I've seen this even with my ownlife.
(44:33):
When my husband and my kids arelike, Oh, wait, I'm like, what
is, Oh, I'm the one in chaos.
Mifrah Mahroof (44:38):
there's a lot to think.
Gemi Hartojo (44:40):
Okay.
There's a lot to think, or is ita lot to feel?
Mifrah Mahroof (44:44):
Yeah,
Gemi Hartojo (44:44):
I love how you went straight to thinking.
Oh Gosh, I have so much to undo,in
Mifrah Mahroof (44:50):
terms of like, being very into the whole, work
style and the productivity styleand all of these checklists.
I have a lot of checklists aswell.
And just trying to find a waythat it works.
in a way that I can flow throughthem.
There's a lot of unlearning thatI have to do.
So for example, this interview,so one of the things I have been
(45:14):
trying to implement more ininterviews is that I would have
a few questions this time andjust let the conversation flow.
that's another one I've beentrying, but it is scary though.
It's scary to let that chaoticenergy flow, because you're
scared as, because it makes youfeel vulnerable.
It makes you feel like, where isthat going to lead?
And how is that going to make melook or what are people going to
(45:36):
think?
So there are these things thathappen.
Gemi Hartojo (45:38):
And so
Mifrah Mahroof (45:39):
so that's why there's this need to structure
it.
Oh, I have these 10 questions.
That's it.
Gemi Hartojo (45:43):
yes, yeah, so that's control, right?
So this is the part of us thathas been told that we need to
control, because we see it, it'smodeled, right?
Oh, if you do this, then this iswhat happens.
If you do this, and this is whathappens.
But now then we think of, Ithink there was an ustada that
actually said, the thing thatyou hear and you obey, that's
(46:05):
your lord, right?
I hear that I have to do thisresult, or I hear that people
are going to say such and such,and that's what I'm going to do
to make sure that I'm going todo the thing.
So these things, external thingsare going to be okay.
And hold on, then we'repracticing shirk, right?
It's a form of shirk.
Because who should we hear andobey?
(46:26):
Allah.
Allah didn't say you need tohave checklists to be successful
in your life.
No.
If in fact, we were just inDalia's group where, no, our
compass is the Salat.
What's the important things, theelements, the big rocks in our
lives, get those done.
And Allah says it actually, allthe Hufadh, just like watch
this, like all the Hufadh, thosewho are truly, in like the
(46:51):
memorize the Quran, but theyalso like manifest it.
They're also doctors, lawyers,they're successful in their
lives.
They're rich, right?
It's very contradictory to like,Oh no, you've got to study all
day long.
I've seen it and I'm like, Whoa,what?
We've got it all wrong.
we've bought into the Kool Aidof Oh, if I work hard and I get
(47:13):
a degree, I'm going to get ajob.
who's going to give you a job?
Mifrah Mahroof (47:16):
Yeah, allah SWT,
Gemi Hartojo (47:17):
the one who gives everything, you know,
Mifrah Mahroof (47:18):
does it mean that, so this whole thing about
chaos, right?
Does it mean that it's okay tobe chaotic?
Or it's a thing?
Gemi Hartojo (47:27):
it's actually important for us to be chaotic.
Let me ask you, do you findyourself productive when you
just do one thing?
Mifrah Mahroof (47:34):
Ah, no, no, not really.
Gemi Hartojo (47:37):
not really.
No, Now.
If you ask a guy, they can onlybe productive when they do one
thing.
Mifrah Mahroof (47:43):
Yeah,
Gemi Hartojo (47:44):
everybody here, just go ask your husband or your
son or your family member that'sa male and tell them, take the
trash out, do the laundry, goboil some eggs.
They cannot do it for the lifeof them.
You have to say, take out thetrash and then stop.
Go boil eggs.
Once the boil eggs are done,then you can tell them to do
(48:04):
something else.
Other than that, no, no, no, no.
I challenge you.
I live with guys, so I know.
They're like, what are yousaying?
What are you saying?
Mifrah Mahroof (48:13):
this has been a lot of fun and a lot of flow.
And a lot of unlearning, becauseit's like, as we say this, even
when I say checklist, so inorder to make a podcast, in
order to make an episode, I havea checklist from start to end,
but my checklist, that documentthat I have, my checklist is,
(48:33):
it's a mess.
there's so much stuff that I'mwriting everywhere and I feel
bad about that before, but nowI'm like, Hey, that's fine.
That's part of creativity.
So the checklists are there, butthere's also a lot of stuff that
I've written up, like stuff thatI wanted to ask you and stuff we
could talk about and what makesme curious about you.
And it's just messy, but I thinkwith messy is where these great
(48:57):
things happen as well.
So
Gemi Hartojo (48:59):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
So what would you take away fromthis
Mifrah Mahroof (49:03):
what,
Gemi Hartojo (49:04):
Look at me.
I can't take it because I'm thecoach.
Right?
I'm like, what do you take awayfrom this
Mifrah Mahroof (49:08):
What did I take, away from this?
it's really understanding that,the feminine energy is very
different to the way we've beentaught.
We've been taught growing upreally about, what it means to
achieve what it means to workthe working styles and all of
these things.
we really need to sit down andask ourselves, I need to ask
(49:29):
myself, like when I startputting myself down thinking,
Oh, why am I so chaotic?
why are my notes so chaotic?
And why is my husband's notes soneat and so like, I don't know
how he does it.
it's just like one thing andIt's like,
Gemi Hartojo (49:43):
Yeah, because there's, physically they don't
have the highway that we have.
Mifrah Mahroof (49:49):
So it's just learn to be, accept that.
And then working with it ratherthan constantly working against
it.
I guess that
Gemi Hartojo (49:56):
is my biggest take Yes.
Yes.
Mifrah Mahroof (49:59):
work against my nature and work with it so that
we can be able to, do the greatthings and do the things that we
want to achieve as ultimatelylike high achieving females, I
guess.
Gemi Hartojo (50:11):
Yeah.
No,
Mifrah Mahroof (50:12):
most importantly, slaves of Allah
SWT.
That's what it's coming down to.
Gemi Hartojo (50:16):
Yeah.
it's very like eyeopening andalso discerning because you're
like, wow.
Like you say, you have tounlearn things.
I would like to stay away fromlike negative, like terminology.
It's just Hey, you know what?
now I know.
How about that?
Now I know.
Now I know.
Yeah.
and I want to make like a,disclaimer, I am also still
(50:38):
learning about the feminine andmasculine energy.
A lot of my own learning comesfrom, Sister Rosie, Rosalian
Batool, she's fantastic.
And you guys can all, learn moreabout, that because that is her
focus, So I really don't wantto, take that away.
cause it's, she's been very,quite helpful.
And the way she explains it isvery relatable to, I think our
Muslim community.
(51:00):
and it's much needed.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Mifrah Mahroof (51:03):
Hmm.
So.
Any, any final words todaybefore we end off?
Gemi Hartojo (51:08):
Final words, what will I say?
I would say, before knee jerkreactions, like throwing away
the baby with the bathwater.
I think that's the terminology.
take a moment.
Do the zone of genius.
I really highly recommend it foreverybody to do that work.
Just see where are thingsaligned.
(51:30):
Is this aligned with my lifepurpose, my dunya purpose, my
ultimate life purpose, toworship Allah?
and how do I feel about where Iam today?
this is really important tolike, oh, well, I have to do it.
Once any, any words with haveto, should, could, need, those
are all.
External energies,
Mifrah Mahroof (51:50):
Hmm.
Gemi Hartojo (51:52):
And if you're like, I feel like I just want to
do nothing.
Well, do nothing.
And the thing is that sometimeswe take it to extreme.
Don't take it to extreme.
Do nothing for five minutes.
Do nothing for 10 minutes.
Mifrah Mahroof (52:04):
Yeah,
Gemi Hartojo (52:04):
Maybe that's really what you need, right?
Mifrah Mahroof (52:06):
Yeah.
Gemi Hartojo (52:07):
Not, I want to, that's it, I'm going to quit and
like run away.
No, no, because when we're inthat state, we're coming from a
state of like frantic and I'mburnt out and making decisions,
there's only going to be regret.
We're supposed to like, oh, thisis where I'm at.
like Google Maps.
Oh, I still have like five hoursto go.
Okay.
Relax.
(52:28):
Right?
You're to my destination.
You know where you are.
What are my next steps?
And that's it.
I'm just going to move a littlebit by little,
Mifrah Mahroof (52:38):
Little bit by little.
True.
Gemi Hartojo (52:40):
a little bit
Mifrah Mahroof (52:40):
Well, Thank you so much, Gemi, for coming
Gemi Hartojo (52:43):
You're welcome.
Mifrah Mahroof (52:44):
Hey everyone, that wraps up another episode of
the Muslim Life Hackers podcast.
I really hope you enjoyed ourchat today and got some great
takeaways from it.
If you like what you heard anddon't want to miss out on our
next conversations, hit thatsubscribe button.
It really means a lot to us andhelps us grow the show.
And you know what?
If you're feeling extra generoustoday, drop us a review or a
rating.
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
(53:05):
Thank you again for tuning inuntil next time, keep striving
and getting better every day.
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