Soumaya Najjarin: Healing and Rebuilding After Divorce

Episode Transcript
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Soumaya Najjarin (00:00):
You need to identify your parameters.

(00:02):
You're not going to have theanswer to everything in the
beginning.
And it's okay not to have theanswer to everything.

Mifrah Mahroof (00:08):
As-salamu alaykum and welcome to the
Muslim Life Hackers podcast.
I'm your host Mifrah Mahroof andthis is the podcast where we get
better every day.
Through conversations withexperts, leaders, and inspiring
individuals.
We're going to give youactionable insights to help you
win in this life and the next.
So if you're ready to level upin every area of your life and

(00:29):
you committed to living withexcellence for the sake of your
Lord.
You're in the right place.
Get ready for insights,inspiration, and a whole lot of
life hacks.
This is a Muslim Life Hackerspodcast.
Let's dive in.
As-salamu alaykum Soumaya,welcome to the show.

Wa ʿalaykumu s-salām, Thank you for having
me.

First of all, I'm going to start off with
getting an introduction and tellme about yourself and what you
do.

Sure.
Bismillahirrahmanirrahim.
my name is Soumaya.
I am the founding director andCEO of New Beginnings, a not for
profit startup organization thatprovides support and guidance to
Australian Muslims navigatingdivorce.
It's a new project thatInshaAllah will inspire hope and

(01:15):
healing in a spiritual andculturally appropriate way to
Australian Muslims and it speaksto the core of an issue that has
been sleeping in the Muslimcommunity, but very much still
alive.
So I hope to add value,InshaAllah, and contribute.
In the real world, though, inthe other world, I'm also a

(01:37):
Senior Policy and Projects Leadon government projects at the
moment.
I'm also a mother to beautifulchildren.
And most importantly, I am afaithful servant of Allah.
Masha Allah,

that's really nice to hear.
So I'm really curious to knowwhat was the story behind New
Beginnings, especially startingsomething in a space such as
divorce, and it can be taboo inmany communities, and what was
the motivation behind that?

The starting point for many wonderful
initiatives, Mifrah, is usuallya point of struggle or adversity
of some sort in life.
And the story of New Beginningsis no different.
It started with my own divorceand New Beginnings started when
my life crumbled.
So I sought the kind ofreassurance and support from

(02:30):
community, loved ones, family,from Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala,
and I was getting that, butthere was something else that
was missing, and there was apain that wouldn't subside,
subhanAllah.
And it was really difficult tounpack and explain at that time,
that the du'a, the salat, theconstant, check ins by friends

(02:53):
and families.
However, I still felt anemptiness.
So I went out searching for anykind of divorce support I could
latch onto, in the Muslim space.
And my search returned nothingin Australia.
And no matter how many articles,self help, motivational reels on

(03:13):
Instagram I divulged anddevoured, nothing seemed to fill
that gap and then SubhanAllah, Ifound a divorce support recovery
program, led by a Christianchurch, very much Christ focused
and Christ centred and at thatpoint in my life, I said that'll

(03:35):
do.
So I signed up and for 12 weeksI sat in the living room of a
pastor's home with 12 otherpeople and heard their stories,
listened to Bible stories.
The penny dropped for me,subhanAllah, when I walked in

(03:56):
and I saw that there were otherMuslims who had joined this
program.

Wow.

And it was at that point, SubhanAllah, that I
sat down as I was listening tothese stories and I thought, why
doesn't a service like thatexist in the Muslim community?

Yeah.

I'm articulate, I have a bit of
education, I've got someexperience in community, why
can't we do that?
I'm going to do this.
This is what I said to myselfwhile I was in the middle of
this healing circle, right?
This opportunity to be healed byChrist and listen to these
stories.
I was thinking, how do I turnthis into a Muslim support

(04:32):
program?
So week after week, SubhanAllah,I attended and I took notes.
The healing journey became a newhealing journey, but it also
opened up an opportunity.
So I've set myself on this newpath, SubhanAllah, and I decided
at that point that since itdidn't exist in the Muslim
community that I would becomfortable enough to lead it.

(04:54):
And New Beginnings was thenborn.
The concept was born.

Hmm.
There's So, much to unpack fromthat.
I mean, like one of the thingsthat comes to mind for me is a
lot of things that we put out tothe world can be as a result of
our own struggles.
And I guess the good thing aboutlooking at it that way, or at
least using your struggles tobuild something new.
We know our struggles very well,so we know that problem work

(05:19):
very well.
It's not distant to us.
There's much more empathy whenwe're helping people in a
similar situation because we'vebeen in that situation.

Yeah, absolutely.
But it's also, another thing isit's addressing the elephant in
the room directly.
We're not strangers to the ideaof stereotype and taboo.
Right?
By default, as Muslims, we'resubjected to many stereotypes.
As Muslims, it's part of ouridentity living in a Western
country.

(05:48):
And the concept of taboo andshame is indiscriminate.
It doesn't discriminate.
And within that divorce space, Iunderstand that it's a tough
topic to talk about.
But it's also a very Islamictopic, it's a topic that is
grounded in Islamic history.
Divorce is not a foreign conceptin our Islamic faith.

(06:09):
And really all I'm doing

Tell me more.
What do you mean by that?
when you say that it's groundedin Islamic history, because the
way

we're not strangers to divorce.

Yeah.
Okay.

And during the time of our Prophet Muhammad
Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam,Divorce happened.
Often and frequently, there arestories of divorce in the
Hadith, there are precedence andcase studies that are in the
Hadith, the story of the womanwho came to the Prophet and
asked for khulu, and the Prophetgave guidance and judgment on
how that ought to be conducted.
There are verses in the Quranthat specifically, instruct

(06:42):
people and direct people as tohow talaq has happened and the
conditions surrounding talaq.
And they are not buried deep inthe Quran.
They are featured in the bookthat we read, the recitations
and the verses.
And I think of and even in thelife of our Prophet Muhammad
Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, hisexample, leading by example in
marrying, the divorced women andmarrying the widows.

(07:06):
Those are all examples that arerich learnings in our faith that
we can either choose to adoptand learn from them or bury
them.
And the unfortunate thing isthat culture has played a really
big part in ostracizing womenand men and shaming women and
men who pursue a divorce or endup divorced.

(07:29):
What the concept of NewBeginnings aims to do is to
actually normalize theconversation about divorce and
give people the tools that theyneed to see the hope and to
connect to Allah and Hismessage, the essence and the
core of our faith, theunderpinnings of Islam, because
the underpinnings of Islam arewhat guide us.

(07:51):
It's like your moral compass,right?
It helps you gain the skillsthat you need to communicate
effectively, to be patient inadversity, to actually work
hard, to sustain your life, andnot just wait for Allah
subhanahu wa ta'ala.
to give you everything you need.
So there's a lot ofaccountability and strength,

(08:12):
hope, peace, security that wecan draw from the teachings of
Islam.
And divorce healing and divorcerecovery is no different.
It's just a subject that peopleprefer not to talk to because
it's laced with shame and taboo.
and it threatens people'sconcept of their self and
reputation, right?

(08:32):
Because a lot of us are drivenby what people think, and what
the community thinks, and weneed to try and uphold, we're
constantly trying to uphold ourstanding and our status.
there is a lot to unpack.
It's a contentious area,

Very much

it needs to be handled delicately.
Almost as delicately as afragile person recovering after
a divorce.

What really comes to mind is like things I
hear through friends and whenthey went through divorce, they
would be hearing things like,you're a bad Muslim or
something, it's crazy.

Yeah, and

yeah.

look, and it's something you can expect to
hear.
Hmm.
Unfortunately, I don't want tosay it's common, but I will say
is be prepared.
Right?
in Islam, we don't take divorcelightly, right?
There is a strong emphasis onthe family unit.
However, we don't discount ormake redundant the

(09:28):
justification, the reasons thatpeople put forward for divorce
and the provisions that Islamallows for divorce to take
place.
Now, how you manage and how youbehave is a different story
altogether.
So, after divorce happens, thereare going to be times when, the

(09:49):
finger is pointed at you and, alot of conversations will take
place about, who's to fault andthat will occupy, and that will
be like center in front of manypeople's conversations in the
beginning.
There's not much you can doabout people's behavior, why not
focus?
and reshift your attention toyourself and what you can do.

(10:10):
And I think this is at the coreof recovering well after
divorce.

One thing that I really want to learn more about
is if someone has gone through adivorce and they find themselves
in this situation in which theyjust feel so disconnected from
the community and they feeldisconnected from themselves as
well, where do they start interms of rebuilding themselves
and getting back to somenormalcy, you can say?

Look, divorce is life shattering, I constantly
draw the analogy of a houseburning down, right?
A natural disaster destroys yourhome, the family heirlooms, your
prized possessions, yourmemories, your photos.
Divorce is very similar, Mifrah.

Hmm.

Everything you knew has crumbled, so the
journey of rebuilding is goingto be slow.
And it's gonna need a lot ofpatience.
It's gonna need a lot of tools.
You're gonna need a lot of toolsfor the rebuild.
So, how does one start theprocess?
we can sit here and talk aboutall these, therapeutic hacks and

(11:15):
all of the psychology andwhether it's Western or Islamic
and all of that.
And the reality is I wentthrough those phases where, I
was trying to latch on tosomething and I would go on and
read all these self help booksand listen to all these
psychologists andpsychotherapists and try to gain
as much as, motivation and willto go on, but I was actually

(11:37):
frozen in a point in time andthere are a lot of emotions that
you need to unpack.
Now whether you walk out on thatrelationship or you're the
person who was left, you'restill going through the stages
of divorce.
And I had no idea what thestages of divorce were until
they hit me, bang, smack in theface, in

What are the stages of divorce?

you go through the shock.
right?
You wake up one day and you'relike, okay, what do I do now?
You can be the most skilled andprofessional person and the
master of your own life rightafter the

the divorce.
okay, yep.
So you go through the shockright after the divorce,
Absolutely,

like in some circumstances you may have
started the healing process whenyou're actually in the
relationship itself, right?
Because usually before you getto the point of divorce, things
would have been brewing andboiling in the relationship.
There may be resentment betweenyou and your partner.
There may have been acommunication breakdown.
So one or both of the partiesmay already have started

(12:36):
emotionally detaching from therelationship.
So like you're kind of thinkingto yourself, Oh, all right, this
isn't working.
I've tried everything, let'sraise the white flag.
Time out.
That's it.
We're done.
But that doesn't prepare you forwaking up the next morning and
thinking, where to next?
Even if you've spent yearsgoverning, managing, driving the

(12:59):
relationship, it still hits youin a sense where you wake up and
you think, now what do I do as asingle person?
If you have children, that'sdouble the pressure, right?
You think, okay, got mouths tofeed.
If the other party ismisbehaving and when I say
misbehaving, it's like,financial support isn't being
provided or, withholding accessto the children, which happens,

(13:21):
and very often and frequently,unfortunately, that adds another
layer of complexity.
And then you start to grieve,and grief is pulverizing, it's
tossing and turning in bed atnight.
It's your mind racing at ahundred miles an hour, thinking,
replaying everything thathappened in the lead up to the
divorce, and then you startgoing back even further.

(13:44):
The mind just spirals out ofcontrol.
Go back further, you start toremember little bits and pieces,
and at times you even go back tothe beginning of the
relationship, and you try tounpack and peel away everything
and anything that may havecontributed to the breakdown of
the relationship.
You lose sleep.
You might lose your appetite.
You might not, you might go theother way and start eating more,

(14:06):
right?
there are so many ways thatgrief hits you.
Isolating from family andfriends, not even looking after
yourself the way you should, youwould typically look after
yourself.
Brushing your hair, lookingpresentable.
then you go through, there's adenial, right?
There's the denial where youlike, no, this can't be

(14:28):
happening or finding fault,blaming, finding ways to blame
either the other person oryourself.
I shouldn't have done this orshe did that, he did that.
There's also another stage whichis interesting called
bargaining.
Now I had no idea what that was.
Until I experienced it myself.
As an older, more mature persongoing through divorce, I started

(14:50):
learning that these, how theseconcepts actually play out and
manifest in real life.
You go through the bargainingstage where, you might be
discussing with your ex partner,reconciliation, what that might
look like, you might be talkingabout, can we make it work, how
do we make it work, and you'lleither reconcile at this point
or you may not, you might goyour separate ways.
The thing is the cycle, thestages of divorce, they don't

(15:14):
just hit you in a cyclical way,it doesn't just come and happen
in a cyclical way.
You might sometimes go throughthree stages at once, and they
sometimes repeat, and dependingon the season of your life that
you're in, and circumstancesaround your life, they may
revisit you.
What you're doing when you'reactually trying to heal and

(15:35):
recover after divorce is you'relearning how to better manage.
And this is where, there are somany elements that need to come
into play.
And one of the most importantones and one significant ones
that helped me personally takethe first step into awareness of
my situation was the closenessto Allah, coming back to Allah.

(15:59):
And I often get really emotionalabout this but there was one
particular time when therelationship ended, maybe a few
months had passed, and I wasreally unsettled at night
thinking about things that hadhappened and how I was going to
make life work in this newsituation, and I couldn't sleep.

(16:19):
It was 3am and I still hadn'tfallen asleep.
I got up, made wudu, and Iprayed tahajjud.
And it was at that point,subhanAllah, that I lifted my
hands up to God, and I said toHim, I'm back.
And tears were streaming down myface.
And I say it was at this pointthat I became aware, because
this is a loaded comment, right?

(16:40):
Because with awareness comesaccountability.
And it was at that point that Irealized that I hadn't been as
close to him as I thought I was,that I wasn't close enough, and
I didn't feel sincere enough inmy Salat.
But when I was praying thatTahajjud, I felt something stir
in my heart that I hadn't feltin many years since my divorce.
So closeness to Allah is one ofthe first things, subhanAllah,

(17:03):
that will give you this jumpingoff point.
And I say it with conviction.
It is a jumping off point, notonly because I've experienced
it, but because Alhamdulillah,this experience working within
the divorce space in service ofour community has opened up
opportunities for me to consultheavily and read lots of
literature and speak face toface with individuals facing

(17:26):
this struggle.
And the majority of the people Ihave interacted with have said
the first thing that helped themgain their footing in life was
finding Allah.
Now this doesn't mean you losthim entirely or you lost your
Islam.
It's finding purpose, findingyourself through Allah.
It's reconnecting with him, withsincerity and with Ikhlas.

That makes a lot of sense, it reminds me of how
we carried this identity thatwe're a married person.
And then when that was strippedaway, it's like, who am I?
But the reality is that all ofthese are just titles.
and our first and foremost roleor title is the slave of Allah
SWT.
And that's the main thing at theend.

but you are discovering a new identity as
well.
Now just remember, as a marriedperson, you played a different
role.

Yeah.

You were a different person now, whether
you were performing, duties athome as a mother, or whether you
were a husband who was, workingand managing your time around
your family and your children.
These are some things that menthat I've consulted with have
said, waking up the next morningand the children aren't there to
hug you anymore.
What do I do with my life?

(18:35):
And these are realconversations, real stories that
impact both men and women.
It's about shifting yourperspective, and reinventing
yourself in alignment with theboundaries that Islam sets.

um,

And it's a beautiful thing when you
actually connect with youridentity, start finding out who
you are through knowing Allah.
And that is a perfect segue forme into one of the books that I
remember reading was ImamGhazali's Alchemy of Happiness.

yeah,

Kimmat Al Sa'ada, I think it's called in
Arabic, and it's knowingyourself through God.
we are, by our fitrah, themuslim identity is strong.
And there is a level ofcertainty that Muslims embody by
practicing our faith.
When you start to travel downthis journey of finding yourself
through Islam, and you openyourself up to becoming

(19:31):
vulnerable to Allah subhanahu wata'ala, and not just vulnerable
to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala,but also pronounce to yourself
that I am now a student ofknowledge and a lifelong
learner.
It's a humbling experience goingthrough divorce when you seek
knowledge and open yourself upto actually reinventing
yourself.

(19:51):
But it also comes with somethingthat I mentioned a little bit
earlier, accountability.
There's a reason why I keepcoming back to accountability,
because divorce is humbling, itreally does break down all of
the beliefs that you had aboutyour future, and it is a clean
slate.
it wipes everything away,immediately, it wipes it all
away, everything you knew, allyour dreams, your hopes, your

(20:14):
goals, your visions, it wipes itall clear.
Because now you need to set newgoals, new priorities, new
tasks.
if you're in a perfect worldwhere both parties are God
fearing, well behaved, and canoperate in a co parenting if you
have children, or in an amicableGod fearing way, then the impact

(20:35):
of divorce isn't as severe.
And when I say it isn't assevere, it doesn't mean you
won't be sad and potentially gothrough some sort of forms of
depression or a deep sadness andhurt and shock, it doesn't mean
that at all.
You'll still go through some ofthose stages.
The impact will be less.
However, in other situations,unfortunately, in high conflict
situations, the pain isexacerbated when you now find

(20:58):
yourself dealing with this newdimension that you may not be
equipped for, eh?
you may not have imagined, theperson that you were married to
behaving this way.
You may not even know the personanymore because of the behavior
and the changes, right?
So you are reinventing yourself,redesigning your life,
rebuilding your present andenvisioning what the future is

(21:21):
going to look like.
And I don't know about you, butI don't know that can be done in
a day, a week, a month or two

Of course,

we put pressure on ourselves sometimes
and we say, no, I've got toshake this off.
I've got to get up and I've gotto do this.
And sometimes family communityand friends, they don't help as
well.
You know, it's like, the otherday somebody said, well,
shouldn't you have already movedon by now?
And people can sometimes be anobstacle to your healing, your
recovery after divorce.

I guess when they haven't gone through it
themselves, they don'tunderstand how long it takes and
it's just you simplify it inyour mind.
Okay.
Shouldn't they have gotten overit?
But as a divorced person, I'mwondering.
How long does it take to getover it?
Like, if you were trying tosupport your friend, is there a
time frame?

I would say how long is a piece of string?

Hmm.

How long is a piece of string?
There's no time limit on that.
There are definitely signpoststhat indicate you're on your
way.
But there's no time limit towhen you recover and nor should
there be.
it took me personally, sixmonths to start seeing hope, to
start feeling hopeful.

(22:31):
It took me 12 months to put asmile back on my face.
And I'm constantly finding newpurpose in myself, finding ways
to do things better.
I'm constantly reinventingmyself.
I'm learning and growing.
This is common knowledgeactually even in the business
world, right?
There's this, the concept ofgrowth mindset.

(22:52):
Divorce healing and divorcerecovery.
It requires a lot of adaptation,right?
You've got to adapt your mindsetfirst.
But you can't control how youfeel straight away.
Nor should you try to controland, you shouldn't be trying at
this stage to suppress youremotions.
One of the biggest mistakes youcan make is to suppress your

(23:13):
emotions when you're goingthrough divorce.
Is to say, nah, I can't show myvulnerability.
Because it's not all aboutputting your big girl panties on
and moving on with the show.
Maybe, if you have youngchildren, you might not have the
space to be vulnerable and letout your emotions.
Because you do have aresponsibility.

(23:34):
But that doesn't mean you bottleit all up, and get on with the
show and make redundanteverything you're experiencing.
It's learning how to coexistwith it and to do that you need
tools.
First of all, you need Allah inyour life.
Secondly, there's an element ofaccountability.
Now this is the third time Icome back to you, I come back to

(23:54):
accountability and let me tellyou why.
Because unless you're willing totell yourself some hard truths
about the divorce, then you'renot really starting your growth
journey, because with everydecision we make in life,
whether it's a relationshipdecision, a career decision, a
life decision, a parentingdecision, there is an element of

(24:15):
accountability.
You make a decision, there areconsequences.
In order to understand theseconsequences and how they apply
to your life, you've got to bewilling to tell yourself some
hard truths.

I'm trying to understand what you mean by
accountability.
Is it having an external partyhold you accountable?
Or can you tell me more aboutthat?

Self accountability, when we talk
about individual growth as aperson, in the divorce context,
what I found, the mostuncomfortable experience for me
was, telling myself, trying tounpack for myself where things
went wrong, and why they wentwrong.
and I had to tell myself somehard truth, absolutely being
really honest and to the pointwhere I was at times brutally

(24:56):
honest with myself, and I saidto myself, okay, the divorce has
happened, there's no pointsobbing.
Let's talk about this Soumaya,and this is the self-talk that I
was engaging in, which I foundreally helpful.
I went back to my Islamicteachings.
Did you follow the guidingpoints of Muhammad Sallallahu
Alayhi Wa sallam when he said,إِذَا أَتَاكُمْ مَنْ

(25:17):
تَرْضَوْنَدِينَهُ وَخُلُقَهُ,فَزَوِّجُوهُ if a man comes to
you with good character andreligion, then marry him.
Did you do that?
And then I answered thatquestion for myself.
Did you dedicate parts of yourlife, aspects of your life, how
much of your life did youdedicate to Allah, to Islam?
What could you have done better?
And I did hear the echo insidemy mind.

(25:42):
And I did hear the messages comethrough.
And there was a piece in thatpuzzle that I needed to actually
be aware of my own faults as aperson, but not in a self
critical way, in a way, where,okay, this is a lesson.
This is a gem you've collectedfrom the sea.
What are you going to do with itnow?
How are you going to use it tomake your life better, to enrich

(26:03):
your life?
How do I choose better?
How do I make better decisions?
So when I talk aboutaccountability is it starts with
yourself.
It starts with peeling away thelayers saying, this is who I am.
I am a human with faults.
Perfection belongs to Allah.
Ya Rabb,

Hmm.

show me, guide me.
Downloading all the feelings,all the emotions to Allah, but
also saying what's my part inthis?
What do I need to do?
How do I tie my camel?
What do I need to do as well?
So that's what I mean byaccountability and it's a very
hard truth to tell ourselves.
you wouldn't kick yourself,absolutely.
Yeah.
I don't know too many peoplethat would be, kicking

(26:42):
themselves in the gut andenjoying it, right?

Yeah.

There's a lot of gut kicking that needs to
happen.

even if you look at it, whether it was divorce or
any other life event, it's veryeasy to fall into this blaming
and it was their fault or evenblaming yourself to the extent
that you can't even forgiveyourself either.
And then you can't move on.
You just feel stuck.
And I think I like how youmentioned how you think about

(27:11):
it, you have that selfaccountability, but then you
look at it as in, I'm notperfect and I'm going to take
this as a gem, a lesson that Ican use to keep moving forward.
And I think that's a veryimportant distinction that you
made because sometimes that selfaccountability or picking out
mistakes from the past can haveanother effect on you.

Oh, absolutely.
And the past is the past for areason.
So a lot of times, especiallyin, consultation with many
people, and in my experience, inmy own personal experience,
dwelling on the past is one ofthe main contributing factors of
people's inability to moveforward.
Circling back to what happenedto try and, justify the divorce,

(27:57):
to justify your behavior, itnever helped anybody.
There's a reason why they saythe past is buried.
You live for today, you buildfor tomorrow.
And especially in the divorcespace, this isn't just my story,
this is the story of my storyand the story of many other
people, who are facing this, newjourney.
The more you dwell on thingsthat happened in the past, the

(28:20):
less likely you're able to moveon.
It takes a lot of energy to sitdown and think and mull over the
past.
You don't have that kind ofenergy when you're going through
divorce.
You need to redirect your energysource to what you can do to
survive today and to build fortomorrow, to prepare for
tomorrow.

That makes a lot of sense.
I remember hearing somewhere,how sometimes even the act of
constantly dwelling in the pastand getting into that negativity
can be addictive.
Like you just keep cycling tothat and then you just live in
the past, you stay in the past,and just trying to step out of
it, is very hard

Addictive

addictive

and destructive.

It's like an addictive, destructive habit, I
guess.
I think that's the word.
I would say habit.

addictive and destructive and I have seen
people bury themselves in a deepblack hole that they can't get
out of because they constantlycircle back to what happened,
who did what.
Who cares who did what?
The relationship is over.
What's that going to achieve?
You extract lessons from thepast, you learn how to do things

(29:26):
better.
There's a reason why they sayhindsight is 20 20.
You take from the past what youcan carry forward and improve on
for the future.
It's perspective, it's mindset.
When you get divorced, it's nolonger relevant who did what.
It doesn't matter, even if youwere at fault.
What becomes relevant is whatyou're going to do to make sure

(29:46):
it doesn't happen again.

Yeah, that makes sense And I even take lessons
from even conflicts or issuesthat you have with other people.
It's like, take the lessons andmove on.
And it makes a lot of sense.
Like you can never go back intime at the end.
No, absolutely not.
Look,

and that's not, to downplay the impact of
divorce and there is a point ofdifference here, alright,
between the experience ofdivorce and any other sort of
conflict that you need to tryand erase the past from.

No, no, no, of course, divorce is on a much
bigger scale,

Oh yeah.
absolutely.
Look, if you have children,you're connected to the other
person, right?
So then, you've gotta upskill,right?
You've gotta become the masterof communication, because your
ex will push your buttons,right?
How do you respond?
This is where the Islamicteachings come in.
no matter which way we look atthe divorce healing journey, or
growth in general, you circleback to the core principles of

(30:42):
Islam.
Because Islam helps keep us incheck.
Islam helps us learn how tocommunicate.
And when I say Islam, we'redrawing on the teachings of the
Quran, the Sunnah, the stories,all of our rich history, Islamic
history.
Islam captures every behaviourand path that you can link back

(31:05):
to your situation, no matterwhat the situation is.
And I have personally found thisto be incredibly helpful in my
healing journey, in my journeymoving forward, and not just
surviving after divorce, butthriving.
And you could put forward these,arguments that, I tend to be a

(31:27):
lot stronger and resilient.
Absolutely.
I come from a background where,I come from an upbringing where,
my father taught us to take noprisoners.
You split your leg open, you'refine, get up, you're okay I came
from a hard yakka backgroundwhere you don't show
vulnerability.
But, that doesn't mean that'sgoing to make me any better at

(31:48):
coping after divorce.
And the example in that was myrecent divorce.
When my world crumbled, when mylife fell apart, actually, when
I say it was a humblingexperience, it was truly a
humbling experience.
It actually made me realize,hey, you're not a tough cookie
after all, are you?
You haven't got the solutions,now what are you going to do
about it?

(32:08):
And Allah has a plan foreveryone, and it's in that
moment of vulnerability whereyou think nothing else can go
right, He shows up and He letsyou know, I'm here, I'm coming,
just take a step towards me andI'll run towards you.

Yeah, at the end we're all tested according to
our abilities at the end.

Oh absolutely, look, and when you're going
through divorce it's really,sometimes It's hard to see that
Allah has a better plan in thatmoment of vulnerability, and I
do often reflect on the Soumayapost divorce, immediately post
divorce, and the Soumaya today.
And I think there's another keything reflection, being
reflective.

(32:47):
Divorce can help you become moregrounded and reflective,
actually, on life and,perspectives in life, and just
gives you that kind of wisdomthat you need.
So there are some perks,unfortunately, to going through
adversity.
But when I look back at who Iwas two, three months after

(33:07):
divorce and who I am today, Isay Astaghfirullah, how could I
have not seen that Allah's planwas for me to progress in my
life and to do this, to deliverthis for the Muslim community.
If I had not gone through thisstruggle and ended up in a
pastor's home listening tostories of Christ, would I have

(33:28):
even come up with the idea tohelp other Australian Muslims
navigating divorce?
I can see that now, that it's 19months post divorce, but I
couldn't see it in thebeginning.
In the beginning it was, why?
Why me?
So, it's a transition.
You go through a season of life,and the seasons of your life

(33:48):
will change along the way.

So, Soumaya, you've shared a lot of great
insights over this interview.
And one thing that I want tounderstand is what is a
challenge that people who havegone through divorce face that
people who haven't gone throughdivorce don't really understand.
And I want to know that based onyour experiences and the people
that you've talked to, who'vegone through this experience.

I would say that the silver lining isn't as
clear as others think it is, andthat the light at the end of the
tunnel is very far in the eyesof the person who's going
through divorce, especially inthe beginning.

Hmm,

It's easy, as a support person, and I have
been in that position.
position as a support person toproviding support to someone
going through divorce before mydivorce and sometimes we fall
into this trap where we think byproviding the kind of moral
support or support to thisperson by saying You know, don't
worry.
It's gonna get better soon.

(34:48):
It'll be fine You know just onceyou get this out of the way once
you get your Islamic divorce forexample or The 12 months and one
day ticks over and you get yourlegal divorce or once your
property settlement is over onceyou've got consent orders in
place, Life is going to be fine.
Well, you know what?
It's not because then you starta new journey.

(35:09):
And then you start this newjourney trying to find your new
way in life.
It's the negotiations that needto take place between you and
your ex-partner.
It's the financial management ofyour life as a single person.
It's your identity as a singleperson, learning to do things
for yourself, navigating life onyour own.
So one of the things that, it'snot easy to see the silver

(35:33):
lining.

Hmm.

Especially in the beginning of the divorce,
that's the first thing I wouldsay, that other people may not
know.
And the next thing I would sayis, there is no recipe, or a
quick fix, or a quick solutionto recovery after divorce.
And I tried my very best.

(35:55):
Throughout my whole adult lifeto stay away from buzzwords like
healing and all of thesespiritual healing concepts.
I tried my very best in thebeginning to stay away from it
because I didn't quiteunderstand the concepts and I
didn't understand what theymeant until I actually got
divorced.
And I had no previousinteraction with any
psychologists or counsellorsuntil my recent divorce.

And then those concepts start to make sense.
Is that what you're saying?

I would say I became more aware of how I
needed to implement change in mylife through those modalities
and how I could diversify myemotional skill set, my maternal
skill set, and where I coulddraw in the resources to help me
rebuild my life.

So what's an example of that?
I'm trying to understand whatyou mean by that.

uh, I remember in the beginning of my divorce
particularly actually, I didactually see a counsellor and
the counsellor would say thingslike, Keep a journal, start
journaling your emotions.
I was also taken through thesebreathing exercises and I tried
desperately to connect withthese exercises.
But right at the beginning of mydivorce, I actually wasn't
focusing on that.

(37:03):
I was trying to think about howI was going to make money, find
living arrangements that wereadequate, put my son through
schooling, and just actuallydeal with life.
So for me, journaling andbreathing and, all these, they
were buzzwords and I'mcompletely honest we need to be
completely honest with ourselvesand, what all of this self help

(37:23):
and the motivation and all ofthese modalities mean to
someone, some people will latchonto that.
And immediately feel thebenefits, but the reality is if
you're juggling and navigating,not just the whirlwind of
emotions, because that is onebig Molotov cocktail that is
going off, you got firecrackersgoing off in your mind, your

(37:45):
body, your nervous system, yourjoints in your body, you're
dealing with a lot of emotionalprocessing, but you're also
dealing with the practicalelements of being divorced and
the practical elements of beingdivorced are how do I continue
to navigate life?
you lose friendships.
The friendships that you had asa married person may change.
The relationships with in laws,extended family, that may

(38:08):
change.
So you may need to find a newnetwork.
How do you navigate all of that?
School may need to change.
Homes may need to change.
Your whole modus operandum needsto be different when you're
divorced.
You're not always going to latchonto these grounding methods.
Not immediately.
However,

immediately, right,

as time.

throw the baby out with the bathwater, right?
There is good in those

a place.
for it.
There is absolutely a place andthere's a time.
And there's a season and there'sa mood as well.
So you'll extract little bitsand pieces from your counseling
sessions, benefits from them.
There definitely are benefitsfrom having that person.
But the reality is not everybodycan afford it.

(38:57):
And this is what's coming out inmy conversations with, the
Muslim community, the women inparticular.
It's, the cost is just too high.
So what do I do?
there are definitely benefits,however, how long it takes, how
much time you need in order tostart feeling those benefits,
that depends on first of allyou, and what you would like to

(39:18):
do with this information.
This is all temporary stuff,stuff that helps you get on your
feet, right?
It's those guardrails, theguardrails need to come off, and
when the guardrails come off,you're on your own, no one is
coming.
This is where mindset comes intoplay.
Some people have a strongermindset, right?
So my mindset is super strong.

(39:39):
All growth.
I take no prisoners mindset.
put your big girl panties on.
You can do this.
Now that comes because I have arich experience, being a single
mother.
Raising children on my own,holding down a job, studying,
working hard, struggling.
When you've walked alongStruggle Street, you become
better at dealing with struggle.
That is a given.

(39:59):
Not everybody has done that.
you may need the guardrails.
The extra wheels on the bike tosupport you initially.
But eventually you need to bewilling to let go of those
wheels and the guardrails.

What do you mean by the guardrails?
Is it support

Supports the Not necessarily.
It's the finding the courage totake a step forward and leave
behind your insecurities andyour fees.
The guardrails are there, right?
You get them from your father,your mother, your brother, your
sister, your friend, yourpsychologist.
they're helping you navigate,but in order to help you.

(40:37):
You also need to help yourself,Right.
God is there.
We need to have tawakkol, andtawakkol is very powerful.
But we also need to play a partas well, and to play a part in
the story of our life, therebuilding of our own life, we
actually need to face our fearsby taking the plunge, and fear
is the enemy of progress.

(40:58):
So, taking the plungee torediscover that new identity,
the new role.
To be comfortable with your newidentity.
To learn how to block out thenoise that becomes an obstacle,
that hinders your process, andthat noise can come from many
places.
it can come from yourself aswell.

(41:19):
There's always that sensor thatlives inside you, the negative
thoughts.
Now therapists are wonderful athelping you unpack that,
especially if you're like me,and you had no idea what
counsellors did before yourdivorce, and you had no idea
what their functions were, anddefinitely helps you gain an
awareness of the existence ofthe studies and literature, the
frameworks that exist to helpyou understand it initially,

(41:41):
right?
And also block out the noisethat comes from outside and it
could be the community thatsays, you got divorced?
Why didn't you work harder?
Why didn't you try harder?
Why weren't you patient?
Don't you know that Allah grantsa woman patience?
Don't you know that Allah grantsa woman Jannah?
If she's patient with herhusband's bad character or his
khuluq, this is the noise you'regonna,

You need to block

You need to learn how to block it out.
It's easier said than done.
and I had to cry a lot.
I did absolutely,

But we're human

my pillows.
Absolutely.
And then you learn to be okaywith crying.
And as it turns out, the morningpages, which is what I call them
now, my morning pages, myjournaling, has become a regular
feature in my life

Do you mean morning as in like morning and
night or

I set the time.
you set the rules.
when you're recovering, likewhen you're finding yourself and
purpose, you set the rules.
You set the guidelines, you setthe bar as high or as low as you
want.
Sometimes you turn the dial downwhen you're having a below the
line day and it's okay, it'stotally okay not to put in
effort and for your socialbattery to be low and for you to

(42:52):
just immerse yourself in a goodread or a good sleep actually
for that matter and then othertimes you turn the dial right up
and that's when you fire up yourneurons are fired up and you
just want to tackle the worldsolve all the world's problems
right read gorge through allthese books change genres do
something amazing and this isthe season of life right this is
one of the seasons of divorceyou find yourself doing you'll

(43:14):
have bursts of energy and thenyou'll have days where you're
just below the line I'm notgoing there right

So I'm curious to know though, earlier you
mentioned, how there are manypeople who can't afford a
counselor or a psychologist.
So what do they do?
because there are many peoplewho fall into that because after
you get divorced, like you said,you have bills, you're trying to
figure out, especially if youweren't working before and you
were depending on your husband.

(43:42):
And the reason I mentioned thisis because like you always hear,
okay, after someone getsdivorced, go get a counselor, go
get therapy.
And it's just said a lot, butnot everyone can afford that.

yeah, it's not a practical solution for
everyone.
and this is why people,individuals, women and men, they
do struggle in silence and inisolation.
They isolate and they dostruggle and they go into some
deep depression, lack of access.
Lack of financial resource seemsto be, one of the strongest
themes that's coming out,ostracization by the community.

(44:15):
There was in fact one person inparticular who said to me, in my
community, when I went throughmy divorce, it actually impacted
on my brother's ability to marrysomeone, because Your prospects
of marrying into a decent familyin that particular community
were significantly reduced ifthere was a divorce status in

(44:37):
your home.

I see what you mean.
So if you don't have access to apsychologist or a counselor,
then what are the practicalsteps that you can do to heal at
that point.

Okay.
Start with your connection toAllah.

Hmm.

That's your bread and butter.

Yeah.

That's the first thing you do.
The first thing you do is yousurrender yourself to Allah.
And be vulnerable with Allahsubhanahu wa ta'ala.
And then there's a practicalelement.
And then you need to figurethings out, right?
Like you sit yourself down, andpeople often talk about
networks.
Actually, there's an interestingbook called A Diary of a CEO.

(45:16):
Now, you might think, how isthis even relevant?
Diary of a CEO, StephenBartlett, right?
Really

I'm surprised you mentioned that in this talk,
but tell me what's the matter.
Soumaya

because he takes the reader through, right
at the beginning of this book,he goes through the five laws,
right?
There are some laws that youneed to follow to be successful,
or to lead a purpose driven lifeor something like that.
And he talks about, there arefive buckets or something.
I might have it somewherewritten here, actually, yeah.
He says there are five buckets,right?
To know your potential in life.

(45:49):
And he goes through them and hesays, What you know.
What you can do.
Who you know.
What you have.
And the last one is redundant.
What the world thinks of you,absolutely nothing to do with
divorce.
But let's go with the firstfour, right?
Your knowledge, your skills,your network, your resources.
Now I often like to Islamify thebooks that I read.
I try to relate them, link themback to the Islamic texts.

(46:12):
And if knowledge is power in thecontext of business, knowledge
is light in the context ofIslam.
Equip yourself with knowledge.
There is a multitude of Islamicresources online.
The internet is flooded,literally, easy to read
articles.
Self help videos, short reels

Or podcasts like this.

podcasts like Muslim Life Hackers and the
likes and actually there are,

particular episode.

this particular episode, InshaAllah
Ya Rabb, we can add some valueto the listeners and to actually
be ready to learn.
Engage in learning.
You become a lifelong learner.
Adopt that mindset, I'm alifelong learner now.
What do I need to learn?
And it's not limited to justdivorce related material.
I can jump from a book onphilosophy to a book on

(47:02):
business.
back to poetry and then look atsome self help book and extract
gems and lessons from each andevery single genre.
The same is true for videos,podcasts, TED Talks.
The more you learn, the richeryour understanding of yourself,
of life, the workings, yourfamily, even your orientation in

(47:23):
life, becomes rich.
Knowledge is not just power,knowledge is light.
It lights up your path.
It helps you see that light atthe end, the other light at the
end of the tunnel.
The other one is skills, right?
Like what you can do.
Alright?
You need to identify yourparameters.
You're not going to have theanswer to everything in the
beginning.
And it's okay not to have theanswer to everything.

(47:44):
Nobody has the answer toeverything, otherwise the
world's problems would have beensolved.
It's hard for you to see that inthe beginning.
Because you want to try tofigure everything out and you
get this burst of energy.
I'm on my own now.
I've got to get this, I've gotto secure that, I've got to do
this, I've got to get skilled,if I haven't worked in 30 years,
I've got to find myself a joband then you end up crashing.
Your nervous system says, nah,not happening, you crash, right?

(48:06):
It's acknowledging that youdon't have all the skills, but
also allowing yourself to startupskilling.
the more trophies on the mantle,The more solid your path is
going forward.

Hmm.

The one after that is networks, and that links
us back to what you were saying,what can you do, right?
Therapists will say, build anetwork, have a support network.
Our own Islamic texts talk to usabout as sohbah, and the meaning
and the value of having goodcompanionship.
Because these are the people whowill hold you accountable if

(48:42):
they're high quality, who willreassure you, who will help you
continue to see the light beforeyou, and will be there for you
to bounce ideas as you'resounding board, as your
motivators, and I have many dearto me who I'm so grateful,
eternally grateful, for beingpart of my life, for listening

(49:05):
when I need it, to be heard, foractually just giving me their
shoulder to cry on when I neededto cry.

mm

And the value of those, companions becomes
magnified.
As you actually start buildingyour strength and courage and
resilience, you start to see andfilter out, actually, your
friends.
Your circle of friends and yourclose, your inner circle becomes
a lot smaller.
You can expect that afterdivorce as well.

(49:33):
But then, because you become alot wiser and you reduce your
circle to the people who add themost value, and then the
extension of your circle thenbecomes People who are part of
your life for whatever reasonthey need to be and you become a
master of navigating throughthose levels of friendship and
companionship.
But having a network shouldnever be undervalued or

(49:56):
underscored.
It is extremely important afterdivorce.
And the last one is resources,right?
And when we say resources, it'sinteresting because resources
can mean a lot of Somethingdifferent to all of us, right?
Resources could be your money,resources could be your
friendship, resources can alsobe your emotional resources,

(50:18):
your mental resources, how muchyou can give, how much you
should allocate.
And one of the exercises Ihonestly have done many times is
a cost benefit analysis of mylife.
Now you notice I'm bringing in alot of business and sometimes
even project management, elementconcepts, part of it is because.

(50:43):
I come from that background, thepolicy, the critical thinking,
but also the project managementframework.
Part of it is that, but anotherpart of it is also I was guided
towards that by close friendsand a counselor.
It's actually, if we applied aproject management lens to our
life, if we project managed ourlife on paper Hmm.

(51:05):
And drilled it went down to Aproject charter, where we
identify the problem, look atthe dependencies, our success
factors, the resources that wehave, a timeline.
And then we look at the otherdocuments.
Created timelines and actuallymapped what this journey is
going to look like.
Actually helps us gain theperspective and actually see

(51:28):
what we're up ahead.
But the reality is a lot of usdon't plan.
You can't plan for divorce,because when it happens, it's a
totally new ballgame, you're ona new stomping ground, right?
But if we applied some projectmanagement, project managing
concepts to our life, andstarted to map through it, like
I did, this is what I foundextremely helpful.
What's the issue I'm facingright now?

(51:50):
Okay?
So I would ask myself, what'sthe problem right now?
Okay, my money.
money is a bit of a problem.
Okay, where can I draw somesavings from, what can I let go
of?
This subscription can go, thiscan go.
I'll pause this one for a while.
I'm not able to donate at themoment.
Scrap, scrap, scrap, scrap.
A bit of planning needs tohappen, right?
So you look at what yourresources are, and you work with

(52:14):
that, and you create a plan.
Cost benefit analysis.
when I was going through thebargaining stage of divorce,
which is when there was aconversation about possible
reconciliation.
I actually did a cost benefitanalysis.
I wrote, what is the cost ofgoing back to this relationship?
What are the benefits of goingback?

(52:35):
And as it turned out, the costwas significantly higher than
the benefit.
And here I am today as adivorced person trying to help
others navigate their life.

Yeah,

That's not to say that it was always meant to
be.
No, this was Allah's will and weacknowledge that, Allah
subh'anahu wa ta a'la had theplan and I am playing out my
story as an actress in my bookof life that Allah SWT had
written me, and it looksdifferent, and there are
different versions and differentways that this is happening in

(53:06):
your life.
there is an acknowledgement thatyou will continue to evolve and
change, and the new version,supersedes the previous one, and
you feel the changes as timepasses.
You feel not only happier, morecontent, stronger, a better
problem solver, even a betterparent, I must say a better

(53:28):
parent towards your children,because you have the space to
actually, figure it out,starting with yourself.
Start by figuring out who youare, and then that comes out and
it shows, it emanates, I'm a bigbeliever in energy, right?
Big believer in your energycoming out, so SubhanAllah, the
harder you work on yourself, themore energy emits from you and

(53:49):
radiates from you.
And you feel it, and the peoplearound you start to see it.
And comment about it as well.

that's very beautiful and I love your
refreshing approach there.

the story of a CEO, right?
Who would have thought?

Who would have thought?
Alhamdulillah.
Well, look, Soumaya, it's beenan absolute pleasure having you
on the show.
I loved our conversation todayand I hope anyone who's
listening to this has reallybenefited from it as well.
and if you want to connect withSoumaya and the work that she's
doing, we'll include it all inour show notes.

(54:23):
And any final words, Soumaya,before we end off?

thank you for the opportunity, I really
appreciate it, and InshaAllahtonight I've tried to, add some
value to the conversation aboutdivorce, and I just want to
emphasize how important it is tobe brave and courageous when
you're facing this challengingtime.
Hopefully got moving into thefuture we can normalize the
conversation about, the divorceexperience for women and men,

(54:50):
and not dismiss the rights andthe need of both women and men
to heal with dignity andclarity.
and I would just say, take everyday as it comes and draw on your
support networks.
And if you're looking for somegood reads, there are many reads
to help you along the way.

(55:10):
If you're looking to setboundaries, there's a fantastic
book called Setting Boundariesby Dr.
Rebecca Ray.
If you're feeling sad, read thebook Don't Be Sad by Dr.
Aaidh Al-Qarni.
If you want to change somehabits, Atomic Habits.
There are many fantastic readsthat you can actually lean to
help give you the boost that youneed.

Hmm.

Stay positive, keep shining, and you are the
master of your future.
You're in charge of redesigningwho you want to be.
It's up to you to decide whereyou go, how far you go.
the only limits that are set arethe ones that you create for
yourself.
There is always a solution to aproblem.

(55:50):
Allah is always near.
He paves the way.
You just need to be ready totake the plunge.
And may Allah subhanahu wata'ala make it easy for us all.

Aameen, thank you so much, Soumaya.

You're welcome.

Hey everyone, that wraps up another episode of
the Muslim Life Hackers podcast.
I really hope you enjoyed ourchat today and got some great
takeaways from it.
If you like what you heard anddon't want to miss out on our
next conversations, hit thatsubscribe button.
It really means a lot to us andhelps us grow the show.
And you know what?
If you're feeling extra generoustoday, drop us a review or a
rating.
I'd love to hear your thoughts.

(56:24):
Thank you again for tuning inuntil next time, keep striving
and getting better every day.

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