July 9, 2024 • 38 mins
Throughout parts of the Southwestern United States, Mexico, Latin America, and Puerto Rico, tales of the legendary Chupacabra run rampant. Folks share tales of sightings of the creature with glowing red eyes and large fangs, who lurks in the forest and preys on livestock and farm animals. Many residents are fearful the Chupacabra, which translates to “Goat Sucker”, is an animal vampire, sucking the blood out of its prey. However, is the Chupacabra real and why were sightings only reported as far back as the 1990s?
Our special guest, Benjamin Radford, is the world’s leading authority on the Chupacabra. He is literally an expert on the topic as he spent over 5 years researching the Chupacabra, traveling to all parts of the world to conduct interviews, field research, and forensic analysis. He authored the most authoritative book on the Chupacabra, Tracking the Chupacabra: The Vampire Beast in Fact, Fiction, and Folklore (2011).
As always, more information on Ben and the Chupacabra are listed below:
MORE INFORMATION ON BENJAMIN RADFORD
"Modern Myths" - American Museum of Natural History
"The Mythical Creature Known as the Chupacabra Walked Out of a Movie" - J. Jarry
"Chasing chupacabras? You may find something even more extraordinary here." - National Geographic
"Chupacabra: What's the story behind the legendary creature?" - L Calvario/USA Today
"Are the strange creatures found around Cuero the legendary Chupacabra?" - K. Cabrera/Texas Standard
Please visit our website: www.militaryveteransparanormal.com for access to more information about this episode and others, as well as other research and investigations we've done.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Evan (00:09):
Welcome back to MVP's what the F***?
Paranormal Podcast, where wetalk about, well, everything the
paranormal encompasses.
So you ready?
Let's f***ing do this.
All right, what's up andwelcome back everyone.
This season we've beendiscussing all those creepy
crawly cryptids that go bump inthe night from monsters to
mythical legends.
(00:29):
This week, we're analyzing oneof the world's best known beasts
, the chupacabra oh, whatchupacabra what was that?
Wes (00:37):
chupacabra, chupacabra, chupacabra chupacabra.
Mell (00:43):
He doesn't know how to say chupacabra tonight's episode is
a very special one.
Evan (00:47):
Joining us this fine evening is Mr Benjamin Radford.
If you are in any way familiarwith the topic of cryptozoology,
you've probably seen his namepop up more than a time or two.
Ben is the deputy editor ofSkeptical Enquirer Science
Magazine and is the world's mostprominent expert on the
chupacabra phenomenon.
He is an award-winning authorof over 20 books, countless
(01:07):
articles and has contributed tonumerous other books and
research.
He is also one of the very fewscience-based investigators of
the unexplained phenomena in theworld.
So, needless to say, if ben istalking about cryptids and
monsters, you better listen up,because this man knows his shit.
We can't thank him enough fortaking the time out of his busy
schedule to drop some knowledgeon our dome pieces.
(01:28):
So, without further ado, let'sget into it.
Ben (01:32):
Wow, I'll take it, thank you.
Mell (01:36):
Yeah, sometimes people think that they're talking to
chupacabras, and it's not.
They're not, it's just us.
Wes (01:41):
Man fucking speak for yourself, Shit.
I'm a beautiful man.
Evan (01:47):
Well, Ben, thanks for coming on here with us tonight,
man, and discussing all thiscrazy stuff with us.
Ben (01:52):
Thanks for inviting me.
It's good to be on.
Evan (01:54):
We are anxious to learn some things that we probably
don't know about this topic outthere.
Uh, if you haven't heard of thechupacabra, it's known by many
different, I guess, variationsand and looks.
Depending on where who you talkto, it looks different than
other people claim it to be, butanyways, chupacabra means goat
(02:15):
sucker in spanish, as far as I'maware right that's correct.
Ben (02:19):
Don't google that, by the way.
That's uh.
If you're putting together apowerpoint, just go with
chupacabra, don't Google learnfrom my mistakes, that's
probably a good call.
Wes (02:34):
Just delete that out of my search bar now.
Evan (02:36):
So goat sucker I mean I'm assuming that they're referring
to like it's vampire, likequality qualities where it sucks
the blood of animals orsomething.
Ben (02:46):
Yeah, actually it's interesting.
There's a, there's a whole uh,there's a mini debate, um, among
, uh, among the very small nicheof people who actually give a
shit about this myselfprominently um, it's, it's
actually.
It's actually interestingbecause, uh, in the tv show bon,
there was a reference to achupacabra and this has made
(03:09):
some people think that thechupacabra actually dates back
to the 60s or 50s or evenearlier.
But actually, if you lookclosely at that episode of
Bonanza, it's referring to awhippoorwill bird.
And according to whippoorwilloh, okay, yeah, according to
legend, uh, the whippoorwillbird sucks milk, not blood milk
(03:32):
out of goats, uh, which is whyit's called the goat sucker.
Um, so that's, that's sort ofone of the.
Sometimes you'll hear someonesay oh well, the chupacabra was
mentioned in Bonanza, differentchupacabra, as weird as they may
sound, actually differentchupacabra.
Well, what is it?
Evan (03:51):
That's a good question.
Yeah that is a damn goodquestion.
Ben (03:54):
Let's start at 101.
Chupacabra 101.
Okay, so the chupacabra, it'sprobably, by this point it's
either probably the second orthird best known
cryptozoological monster in theworld after Bigfoot.
Bigfoot is, of course, theMarquis, and then you probably
have Nessie, the Loch Nessmonster, and then Chupacabra,
(04:15):
sort of jockeying for secondposition, and then you have sort
of tertiary monsters JerseyDevil, mothman, lizardman, you
know, take your pick.
And one of the things that Ifind interesting about the
Chupacabra one reason I spent somuch time researching it and
writing a book on it and thingslike that is that, as was
(04:36):
alluded to earlier, it's avampire.
Bigfoot is not a vampire.
Nessie is not a vampire,mothman is not a vampire.
The Chupacabra is specificallya vampire.
Mell (04:45):
Like a bat with wings.
Ben (04:48):
Well, this is what's cool about it, right?
So that's what really intriguedme, because I'm like, well, you
know, yeah, if it's a vampire,then it leaves dead bodies,
right, that's kind of what theydo, or presumably there should
be some, you know, sort offorensic evidence of these sorts
of things.
So the morphology of thechupacabra is.
(05:10):
I mean, we could spend a halfhour on that specifically, but
basically the chupacabra changedform dramatically.
So this is another sort offascinating angle to it, right,
if you look at Bigfoot, theBigfoot that people
conceptualize and think about ispretty much the same as it was
in 1970s, 1950s and so on.
Mell (05:31):
Right.
Ben (05:32):
Same thing with the other creatures, but the Chupacabra is
different in that if you lookonline or in magazines or
wherever else, you'll find quitea wide variety.
So initially the sort of earlyChupacabra was sort of a
spiky-backed bipedal figure withsort of large alien wraparound
(05:55):
eyes spikes down the back, butotherwise bipedal.
Evan (05:59):
It looked more or less like human form and then Sorry
to cut you off, this was thePuerto Rican Chupacabra, like a.
Clip (06:08):
Puerto Rican in his hair.
I spell Puerto Rican.
Y'all know I love Mr PuertoRican.
I spell Puerto Rican in thisRican.
Evan (06:18):
Exactly.
This is the original.
Ben (06:21):
Yeah, so this is the original Chupacabra.
So it sort of breaks down todifferent stages.
So the very original chupacabrawas the one that I just
described.
Um, it was cited by a womannamed madeline tolentino, uh in
august of 1995, uh in in puertorico.
This is what she described.
She didn't call the chupacabrabecause it was not known before
(06:44):
that.
She just said she saw thisweird ass thing basically
outside of her front door andother people sort of made up the
name and attached it to thatfigure.
So that version of Chupacabrabasically went from 1995 to 2000
.
And what happened in 2000 waswhen all of a sudden we have the
quadruped.
This is where we have thechupacabras.
(07:06):
Look like dogs and coyotes andmangy things like that so it
started in the 90s yep 1995 youknow that don't make no sense
though it.
It don't make no sense unlessyou, unless you sort of go back
to the, the origin of it andsort of piece together, which
which I did in my book trackingchupacabra um, I was trying to
(07:29):
figure, okay, well, why did itappear in 1995?
I mean, why not?
Why not 1982 or 1975 or 1800?
Um, so that was sort of the oneof the key parts of the mystery
.
I was trying to look at thedead bodies, eyewitnesses, what
did people say it was?
What would you think it was?
And then, and then, basically,after I had looked, I
(07:49):
interviewed medical forensicsexaminers, uh, talking about,
like you know, if an animal'sattacked, there's basically what
I call the illusion ofvampirism, where an animal can
look like it's been had hisblood sucked out, but it
actually hasn't.
So there's like forensicsinvolved, uh.
And then I was trying to lookback okay, well, where where did
this, where did this thingemerge?
(08:10):
You know, in in august of 95.
So that's what.
That was sort of the fun partof sort of piecing it all
together I have a question.
Mell (08:18):
So you were saying you know your book tracking the
chupacabra.
If I'm not mistaken, that tookfive years of research, right?
It did so how do you researchan urban legend when there's no
evidence of his of his existence?
Ben (08:33):
that's an excellent question.
Um, basically, I began, uh, byassuming the premise that it was
real, right, so I didn't knowit was real.
I I'm a skeptic, obviously, butI'm like, well, if these
chupacabras and keep in mind,like Bigfoot, that can't just be
one of them.
I mean, there has to be abreeding population if they're
(08:54):
actually animals.
Wes (08:55):
Yes, exactly.
Ben (08:56):
So I began my book by trying to well, I actually began
my book by talking about thevampire aspect, and what did
people think the vampires were?
So I was looking, for example,at vampire legends in the 1800s
in Europe and, as Melanie knows,part of my background is in
(09:16):
folklore, so that was basicallyso.
I began by sort of looking at,by placing the Chupacabra in the
context of vampires generally.
The reason I did that wasbecause, if you look at the
history of vampires typically,the reason that the vampires are
created that is why people orsocieties think that vampires
are real is because there'ssomething weird that they can't
(09:37):
explain.
And, oh shit, who knows thisvampire or witches?
Witchcraft is another example,right?
Yeah, you know some.
You know that some lightningstrikes a house or there's a
stillbirth.
Hundreds of years ago, in thepre-scientific era, they didn't
know who to blame, so they blamethe witch down the road, they
blame a vampire, they blame somesupernatural cause.
(09:58):
And the same thing happened, Iargue, in my book with the
chupacabra, where you had theseunexplained animal mutilations
that they didn't have anexplanation for.
So they're like well, it mustbe that chupacabra thing, and so
that's the connection that Imake.
Evan (10:13):
Now, were any of these animal mutilations actually
drained?
Ben (10:18):
of blood?
No, they weren't, and that'sone of the most common
misconceptions.
What you find is that,typically, when somebody finds
an animal that they think hasbeen drained of blood and keep
in mind that in these cases,these aren't professionally
autopsied, right.
So what you find is that inmost of the chupacabra victim
(10:41):
cases, there will be an animal.
The animal will almost looklike it's sleeping.
It's not ripped up, it's notbleeding out, there's not blood
everywhere.
It seems to just be sittingthere by itself and if you look
closely, there's two puncturemarks on the neck.
Well, of course, you're goingto think vampires, because
that's the classic vampire.
Evan (10:59):
Hell yeah, that's what I would think.
Ben (11:00):
Right, but in fact, what happened was that you know it
was typically these are.
This is ordinary predation.
So these are dogs and coyotesthat will attack at the neck,
they'll crush the neck and thenthe animal will die of internal
hemorrhaging.
Who started it?
Who started it?
What happened was Let me tellyou a story, jonathan.
So here's the thing.
(11:21):
So, just like you have to placethe vampire, you have to place
the chupacabra in the context ofvampires.
You have to place thispredation in the context of the
chupacabra.
So there were some ordinarypredation going on in Puerto
Rico, but in this case, a womannamed Madeline Tolentino, who
you mentioned earlier, sawsomething weird.
Clip (11:43):
Oh my God, what is that?
Oh my God, what is that?
Oh my God, what is that?
Ben (11:49):
I actually interviewed her so she actually told two
different versions of the storyand if you're interested I'll
parse them out later on.
But basically the main versionthat she told was that it was
broad daylight, she didn'tremember the day, but she said
it was the second week sometime,the second week of August of 95
.
And she was living with hermother.
(12:09):
And I went back to the housewhere this whole encounter
happened and she said that shewas there with her mother and
she looked out the window and itwas broad daylight early
afternoon.
She looked out the window andshe saw this creature that she
had no idea what it was.
She described it as, as Imentioned, sort of it had three
fingers and toes, it stood likea human, it had big eyes, it had
(12:32):
very distinctive spikes goingdown the spine, it had no nose,
just two little slits and asmall mouth.
And she describes seeing thisthing and, but she doesn't freak
out, she's right, which I findodd, frankly.
Mell (12:50):
I had to shit myself.
I'm not even.
Clip (12:53):
Yeah, I would speaking of shitting yourself, I shit my
pants.
I don't know why I ever tookthat chance.
Ben (13:11):
Speaking of shitting yourself, she is very You're
wondering where this is going togo.
Right, Speaking of shittingyourself?
Let me tell you folks.
So, Tolentino, in theinterviews that she gave me, and
also other ones I dug up thatshe gave in 96, she gave this
(13:32):
very elaborate, detaileddescription.
She said that she was lookingfor genitalia.
Clip (13:36):
What is she doing?
I'm not under there.
Ben (13:38):
She's looking for my balls.
Clip (13:41):
Hey, if anyone's seen Decton's balls, let me know.
They're about this, big but alot tinier.
They're like a pea or like aball bearing or like if you've
ever seen a mouse ball Abouthalf that size, incredibly tiny.
They're like really, reallytiny little girl balls If little
girls had balls.
So if you find little tiny girlballs that are so fucking tiny
(14:04):
and shriveled up, let me know,because I'll put them right back
up his scrotum.
Ben (14:11):
Obviously that's the first place, I'd look.
Of course.
Right, she's like hey, let me,is it a boy or a girl?
I don't know Where's the junk?
Right, look at his balls.
Right, can you get a load ofthe chupacabra's balls?
So she's describing copper'sballs.
So she's describing.
So she, she says it was, uh,the word she used.
Well, it was in spanish, butbasically it was sealed that
(14:32):
they had.
No, it didn't have a, it didn'thave a butthole, didn't have a
dick, didn't have a vulva.
It was just basically smoothand I mean, I don't know
whatever, I don't want to getall weird on
you.
So I know that ship has sailed,but so anyway.
So she's, she's talking, butshe's talking to her, her mother
, about this creature thatthey're apparently both seeing
(14:53):
again just outside her window.
And then she says, well, shesaid it skipped away, but then
she said it kind of flew awayand then she said it sort of
hopped.
So she gave slightlycontradictory descriptions of
how it left the area, and thevery first people that
interviewed her about this was agroup of UFO buffs in Puerto
(15:15):
Rico.
Mell (15:16):
So this is a monster and she's reaching towards alien
buffs.
Ben (15:21):
Well, right, so there's a strong presence of UFO believers
in Puerto Rico.
So what happened?
Was they heard about this?
They're like this woman sawthis weird thing, maybe it's
alien related.
So they went and interviewedher and they basically put their
own spin on her sighting.
So she never said it was alien,she just said that she saw this
(15:43):
weird thing.
So the group of UFO believers,including it, was led by a guy
named Jorge Martin.
He's the head of this local UFOgroup.
He interviews her and hebasically elicits these
connections to extraterrestrialsand UFOs.
And that's why, later on, onetheory is that when aliens were
(16:05):
visiting Puerto Rico, rico, uh,it was an alien pet, like, like
a dog or dog dog, that's like itran out.
They couldn't get it back.
So the, the flying saucershowed up in puerto rico.
Uh, the aliens are looking forsomebody to put something up
their butts, whatever.
Uh, the chupacabra is their petwho, like, ran out the door
when they weren't looking andescaped into the, into the
(16:28):
forest.
Mell (16:29):
Oh no, I got to stomp the brakes and put the idea right
through the fucking windshield.
On that one, I'm sorry, I justcan't.
Wes (16:35):
You can't picture an alien dog just no escaping into the
force.
Puerto Rico.
No all smooth like a.
Evan (16:42):
Ken doll Buster got away out on another damn planet.
We got track him down.
Wes (16:47):
Yeah, like what the fuck is this shit?
I told you to put a collar onhim.
Ben (16:51):
Right, right.
Yeah, they can come all the wayacross the universe, but they
can't keep track of their pet.
Wes (16:55):
Yeah, what kind of shit is this?
Ben (16:57):
So okay.
So if you don't buy that theoryhe said advisedly then there's
another theory, which is that no, no, it's not extraterrestrial,
it's actually the product oftop secret experiments gone
wrong, like, like now, we'retalking Now see, there you go
this is.
Mell (17:17):
this is more of the group that's what I heard Like they
had.
They were just research monkeyson the Puerto Rican Caribbean
Primate Research Center and thatthey somehow bounced and
escaped.
Ben (17:30):
Right.
So in Puerto Rico, the mainplaces that's identified as the
origin or the home of Chupacabrais called the El Uque
Rainforest.
The rumor is that somewheredeep in the jungle there is a
top secret underground base andthis is where the Chupacabra was
being experimented on untilthere was a um, a hurricane, and
(17:51):
so that that's.
One of the stories is that theChupacabra is this Frankenstein
engineered, uh, military monsterthat the hurricane came through
it, it blew out a window or youknow, I don't know, did
something, and this is when itescaped.
Wes (18:08):
It's fucking crazy.
Just some straight island of DrMonroe stuff happening.
Mell (18:13):
Exactly.
Why do you think so many peoplethink that it's real though?
Ben (18:18):
Well, there's a couple of things here.
Part of the reason that somepeople believe in it is that you
look at folklore, right, and soif you look at who believed in
Chupacabra at first, this isprimarily a rural thing.
So this is where you have farms, you have ranchers, you have
for lack of a better word notwell-educated people not looking
(18:39):
down on them, but just ranchers.
And so what you find is that,for the ranchers and farmers,
they had a reason to believe inChupacabra because to them it
was a real threat.
If something is attacking youranimals, you're given an
explanation.
If you're given a pseudoexplanation, then you're going
to pay attention to this.
It was, as I mentioned, oftenthe subject of tabloids.
The mainstream newspapers inSan Juan weren't reporting on it
(19:02):
because they thought it wasbullshit.
One one.
One way that that that sort oftranslated into the real world
was that it tended to be morerural folks um, in many cases
less educated who were sharingthese, these stories about the
chupacabras.
You know, if you're, if you'rea lawyer or a doctor in san juan
, you don't give a shit.
(19:22):
The chupacabra isn't, it's notrelevant to you, right?
If you're a rancher in ruralPuerto Rico, you need to best
you know, if you might only have, you know, 15 head of cattle
and two goats and if they, ifthey die, that's your livelihood
.
The other thing that happenedwas that the reason that people
believed in it was that therewas local, local politician who
(19:46):
was who was telling people thatif you vote for me, I'll protect
you from the chupacabra shut up?
Wes (19:51):
damn no way, fucking course , jesus.
Ben (19:57):
Hey, man, the opportunity's there, you know, dive on it
right and and it sounds weird,but like using boogeyman and
politics, this is standardprocedure, of procedure.
This has happened.
Wes (20:08):
It's happening right now.
Ben (20:09):
In this case he's like again he's playing to his base
If you vote for me, I'll protectyou from the Chupacabra.
Like well, shit, you got myvotes, damn.
Mell (20:21):
That's some straight mob shit.
That has shown that when peoplehave high anxiety or a lot of
stress about whether it'spolitics or like a real threat,
then if they can focus onto aspecific target it will reduce
their stress levels when they'rethinking about their own
(20:43):
government.
So I can see how he could usethis chupacabra to try and take
their stress away from what'sgoing on in politics onto this.
It kind of gives them relief.
Ben (20:58):
Yeah, and even if you don't believe in it, you know there's
no harm.
I mean, yeah, maybe someonemade fun of him, but he got
reelected.
He was the mayor of Canovas, Ithink, for like 20 years or
something.
Mell (21:08):
That's insane.
Ben (21:09):
No, you're exactly right, and that's actually one of the
reasons why Texas specificallyhas such a high number of
chupacabra reports, for a reasonyou just mentioned, which is
that when you're looking atanimals with sarcoptic mane,
typically what happens is thatand this is actually due in part
(21:30):
to global warming that's weird.
Exactly here's how this works.
Is that, basically, you haveanimals because here in the
southwest and other places aswell, they're getting warmer and
warmer.
Animals are living longer,whereas they would have died
during the cold snaps, right?
So an animal has mange andtypically, because it loses its
(21:52):
fur, its insulation, they woulddie off more quickly because
during the harsh winters, butbecause the winters are getting
milder, more of them aresurviving, even with sarcoptic
mange, and they're lookingweirder and creepier because
they're losing more and morehair.
So there's actually a climatelink to why there's more and
more chupacabra reports over thelast, say, 10, 15 years.
Evan (22:15):
Isn't that what they determined with the chupacabra
specimen that they found?
That Texas rancher found thePhyllis Canyon?
Clip (22:23):
Is that how you say it?
Evan (22:24):
Yeah, canyon, okay, canyon , is that how you say?
Yeah, canyon, okay.
And they?
They had that.
Uh, that chupacabra allegedchupacabra body, uh, dna tested
at the tsu, didn't they?
They did, yeah, they did andfrom what I understand it came
back.
It was like a a coyote, or acoyote mixed with a mexican wolf
, or something yes, that was so.
Ben (22:44):
That's an interesting story .
So I, I, so Phyllis Canyon was,as you mentioned, she was a
ranger out in Cuero, texas,actually, for the TV show
Monster Quest.
They flew me out there to, to,to, to meet Phyllis Canyon and
look at her chupacabra.
And it was interesting becausethe night before in the hotel I
was meeting with the TV showproducers.
(23:06):
I was like I can explain, I canexplain this to you if you, if
you want, if you want me toexplain sort of the context of
the chupacabra here, I'm happyto do it.
Uh, he's like no, no, wealready have the script.
Just, you know, we call time 730.
We'll pick you up, we'll takeyou there.
I'm like okay, well, if youdecide you want to actually
(23:26):
understand this, let me knowthey're not interested in that.
Mell (23:30):
No, no, no no no we got it covered already.
Ben (23:33):
Yeah, we know the script.
We already know what we want tosay Thanks, but no thanks.
You wrote a book, whatever.
So, I'm like whatever.
I mean, I'm used to this.
I've done enough TV.
I'm like whatever, AlthoughI've done enough TV, and like
whatever, Although I will.
I will give a shout out to JoshGates.
I was on his show, actuallyDestination Truth or Destination
(23:54):
Unknown.
I was on both of them and hehad me out there in Puerto Rico.
It was actually a pretty goodshow.
We ended up in a cave, kneedeep in batshit.
Mell (24:04):
Oh guano, good times, good times.
Ben (24:08):
That was fun, um, but to his credit, uh, even though it
was a little moresensationalized than it would
have liked, it was actually apretty good show.
So shout out to him, but so so.
So we for for phil's canyon,the one that you mentioned.
So we go out there for thecamera crew.
They want you to meet somebody.
Like five times.
They're like knock on the door,pretend that we're not here,
okay oh hi, never didn't see youthere.
(24:31):
No, do it again.
So so, uh, so we meet with herand she's like do you want to
see the chupacabra?
I'm like, yeah, that's whywe're here, obviously.
So she takes us in from theliving room, out the back, into,
uh, the garage, and she opensup a freezer.
So she opens up the freezer and, like, she takes out ice cream
(24:51):
and then, like you know, somechicken wings, and then there's
a severed dog head no, nowrapped in plastic don't, don't,
oh yeah, that's my kind of ladydude okay, all right.
Well, here's the severed coyotehead.
So she takes it over.
So of course the camera wantsher to take it out four or five
(25:13):
times we get to that.
So I actually got a chance tolook at this thing and examine
it.
So she's telling the story andI'm not in the shot, but I'm
hearing her talk and she'stelling the camera guys and
telling the producer.
Well, you know I saw this thingand you know she talked about
how she found this chupacabraand you know she cut the head
(25:35):
off and it was so strangebecause it didn't.
She's like it has no hair on it.
It's the weirdest thing.
She's like it can't be mangebecause mangy animals have some
hair on it and she's like itdoesn't have any hair.
So I mean I'm hearing her saythis and I'm looking at the and
I'm like I see hair right here.
(25:56):
It's literally like I I don'thave any hair, but there's hair.
I I can that thing that she'ssaying it doesn't have it
obviously has it you just panright over here if you don't
right here.
It's right fucking here.
You don't need to zoom in, youcan get it from that just man,
we got to stick to the script,you know, right?
Wes (26:14):
we?
Ben (26:14):
got a script dude, so I'm like whatever.
So.
So we we wrapped up and thenlater on in as I talk about in
in my book.
So basically, what happened wasthat, um, it was halloween I
forget what year, but it'shalloween and as part of a
Halloween special, a local TVstation I thought it was San
Antonio I think it was decidedthey were going to do a DNA test
(26:35):
on the chupacabra.
Ooh, I know right, I'm likefinally some actual science.
So they did the DNA test and,as was alluded to earlier, the
answer came out coyote Bigsurprise.
Phyllis didn't like that answer,so she's like well.
She says well, I'm a doctor.
Can you guess what kind ofdoctor she is?
Wes (27:18):
She's a naturopath.
You fucking crazy man you soundinsane.
Evan (27:19):
Do you realize that you should be medicated?
Wes (27:20):
elaborate what the fuck is that.
Yeah, hold on, hold on.
Yeah, pump the brakes.
Ben (27:23):
Someone needs to explain that the point is that she was
making it sound like herbackground had some bearing on
genetic analysis, which ofcourse did not.
Mell (27:30):
No, no, it's a holistic doctor pretty much yeah, that's
yeah, it's not.
Ben (27:35):
Is that what it is?
Mell (27:37):
they kind of mix some science and natural therapy and
then they take some sort of likeholistic approach to treating,
rubbing essential oils on yourbody and eating chickpeas, kind
of thing it's like step up fromthat.
Wes (27:53):
It sounds like a good time so.
Ben (27:57):
So she's like okay, well, I'm gonna pay for my own dna
test, because you know thegovernment is, you know she
agreed to the dna test.
It comes back and answers shedoesn't like.
She's like well, I'm gonnasubmit it again on my own, I'm
going to pay for it.
This time they're like it'syour coyote, do whatever you
want.
So she sends.
So she she's like this isbullshit.
So she sends it off to another,another lab.
(28:19):
She pays for this and it comesback the the same.
At this point she's like well,maybe it's a coyote, but it's
also a chupacabra.
Wes (28:28):
Oh, interesting, yeah, that checks, out.
Mell (28:36):
She wanted it to be.
Ben (28:36):
So, no matter what you said , it was going to be a
chupacabra.
Well, so I asked her.
I said well, Phyllis, I meanI'm trying not to sound
condescending, but you know I'mlike well, Phyllis, what you did
, what you did, I'm like okay,you admit that it's at least
half coyote, but you say it's achupacabra.
How does that work?
(28:58):
He's like well, I think thechupacabra is a coyote mixed
with a wolf.
I'm like Phyllis, here's thething we already know what a
coyote and a wolf mix is like.
They're called coy wolves.
They exist, they're not unknownto science, they don't suck
(29:19):
blood and they're nothing likethis mangy dog yet.
Mell (29:26):
And then she's like well, you know the, the animals.
Uh, their eyes glow inphotographs of course, so do
mine.
Ben (29:30):
Thank you, thank you.
So I'm like phyllis.
Again, phyllis, here's thething.
Do you know why they onlyreflect in photographs?
Here's why Because they'reflashes, because there's a flash
reflection.
This is not a thing, and that'swhy it's only in photographs,
(29:52):
because it's the same witheverybody else.
It's called red eye.
This has been known.
Phyllis, you didn't discoveranything new.
This has been known.
Phyllis, you didn't discoveranything new.
This has been known formillennia.
Well, again, I'm trying to benice, but it's just sort of like
uh, uh, but she, she was nice.
Uh, I bought a t-shirt from her,I bought a beer cozy, which I
have hold, on hold, on hold, onhold on, like chupacabra t-shirt
(30:16):
and beer koozie yes, yes, yeah,so she's, she sold
merchandising the shit out ofthat huh oh, yeah, she was she,
she so that explains the secondtesting yeah, yeah, because,
well, because she, she literallycalled herself the chupacabra
lady, so she had a vestedinterest, literal financial.
Yeah, she had financial gainyeah she's like's like so and I
(30:40):
mean I don't blame her for it,but I mean it's like so.
Yeah, I mean I, I she signedthings for me.
I mean she was nice so I wasn'tgoing to argue with her.
I mean I'm not there to likewe're in a parade.
(31:01):
Looks like right, that that isa known thing, you can google it
, it's, it's real and it'snothing like what you found.
And and besides that, she keptsaying there's no, there's no
hair on this, on this majorchupacabra, and I can fucking
see the hair.
I'm like, look, it's rightthere.
It's literally in thephotograph you gave me.
You're petting it.
That's not a shadow that's hair.
Wes (31:18):
So, ben, before all the testing was done, right when you
were there and you watched herpull, pull this head out, when
you seen it were you just in theback of your mind like that's a
fucking coyote, like did youknow?
Ben (31:33):
I suspected pretty early on .
But what was interesting wasthat again she in her mind, in
phyllis's mind, she had thesesets of reasons why it couldn't
be a coyote, despite thegenetics she's like.
Well, but the mouth isdifferent, because, for example,
the mouth looks bigger than acoyote.
Well, what happens is thatthat's actually a function of
(31:55):
the sarcoptic mange.
So when animals have mange,mange, the skin tightens and
then that pulls back, yeah, theflesh around the mouth.
So again all the things thatshe was like saying, well, what
about this, what it is, whatabout this?
I'm like this is all.
This can all be explained.
I mean, I'm not trying to be mrdebunking skeptic here, but you
(32:15):
gotta give me more than this,because this is clearly coyote
yeah, also where.
Evan (32:19):
Also, where's the rest of the body?
Why'd you just cut the head off?
Wes (32:22):
Well, she probably couldn't get their ice cream in there.
Ben (32:25):
Phyllis said that she found I think two, two, two
chupacabras, so one of them, asI recall.
So in her house there's lots oftaxidermy.
So I'm not a tax, I'm not ahunter, I mean whatever, but I
she, yeah, you go in her house,she's, you know, antelope and
deer and bear, and God knowsit's such a.
So at some point I think therewas a chupacabra coyote in her
(32:50):
house.
Mell (32:52):
You would just see that.
Yeah, you would think, if shecaught a chupacabra she would
mount that bitch right, you knowas soon as you walk in the door
.
Ben (33:04):
That's probably why she had the head in the freezer.
That makes sense, well,actually.
So there's a funny story, justas a quick aside.
So there was in not not inCuero, texas, but in Blanco,
texas there was a guy namedJerry Air and he actually
taxidermied an allegedchupacabra.
So I talked to him and I waslike you know, you're an expert,
right.
(33:25):
He's like, yeah, I was like didyou see anything unusual about
this?
I mean this.
I'll be honest, this looks alot like a coyote.
He's like it looks like acoyote to me, but the guy that
paid me to taxidermy it hewanted it to be, chupacabra.
Hey, he's like I'm not, I'm notgetting paid to identify it.
Wes (33:45):
I'm getting paid to stuff it.
I saw the pictures of thatthing.
Ben (33:47):
It looked creepy as shit, though.
It did look creepy, yeah, butdid he make it look that creepy?
Uh, I think I don't.
I didn't ask him whether hemade it creepy, it was, it was
kind of weird anyway.
But so the guy that bought itwas a creationist named, uh,
john adolf.
The reason he wanted theChupacabra was because he has a
creationist museum and hethought the Chupacabra disproved
evolution.
Evan (34:07):
Oh, Smart guy huh.
Ben (34:10):
So his logic is well, those egghead scientists, those
evolution scientists, they saythe Chupacabra can't exist.
Yet here it is Obviouslyobviously.
If they're wrong about that,then they're wrong about
evolution too.
Oh yeah, of course of course,that makes sense why didn't I
see it?
Mell (34:28):
I don't know.
You know we're slacking.
That's what's.
That's the problem with us?
Yeah, if there isn't anytangible evidence, should that
preclude the possibility of itsexistence at all?
Like, is there leeway forpossibility just because,
because you know, absence ofevidence is not evidence of
(34:49):
absence, according to williamwright, sure?
Ben (34:53):
no, I I would agree with that.
I mean so the the chupacabra,it's, the again there's.
There's a couple aspects to itthat are distinctive.
I've talked about a couplebefore.
Again, it's a vampire, it's avampire dog right, Well, again
it.
Wes (35:09):
Sometimes, sometimes, no butthole.
Mell (35:12):
That's the most important thing.
Doesn't have the chocolatestarfish.
Ben (35:15):
Not only do we not have scat, we don't have bones, we
don't even have tracks.
This is really killing, right?
Yeah, bigfoot is known forbeing blurry but also leaving
tracks, yeah, so blurry.
So let's say there's I don'tknow.
Let's say there's 10 000chupacabras out there.
They have four legs.
So, uh, every with every step,uh, every two steps, they're
(35:37):
creating exponential, like thereshould be literally hundreds of
thousands of chupacabra tracksacross North America, south
America or whatever.
There's not even one.
And besides that, again, onceyou recognize that their alleged
prey are not in fact drained ofblood, I mean, again, in the
(35:58):
rare cases where somebody hasactually gone and said, you know
, you say this is a chupacabravictim.
Yes, cut it open, there's bloodthere, right?
So we know for a fact.
So what are they drinking,right?
So all these things sort ofcome together.
But it's certainly true that inmy research and as Melanie, as
you know and you know, I've donethis for a long time 20 years
(36:22):
or so and I look into a varietyof things curses, ghosts and all
sorts of things and, forexample, every now and then
there'll be someone who will saywell, you're just a debunking
skeptic.
You say Bigfoot don't exist.
I said no, or ghost.
I said I have never, ever saidsay bigfoot don't exist.
(36:43):
I said no, or ghost.
I said I have never, ever saidthe bigfoot can't exist.
I have never, ever claimed theghost cannot exist, right?
I?
I've searched all you wantinterviews, books, articles.
I've never said that.
Why haven't I said that?
But the reason you bring up islike I can't that scientifically
I don't know.
We can't say you can't, youcan't prove a universal negative
.
That being said, what I can sayis that the all the evidence
(37:06):
that I've seen points to thesenot existing.
Tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, there could be
better evidence, but as of now,I have looked at this and in
some cases I've done fieldresearch.
I mean, I've, I've, I've doneit.
Uh, yeah, I've spent, I'vespent time in the jungles of
nicaragua.
I've, I've been in, I'vetraveled around south america.
(37:27):
I spent five years on this.
I'm not just some armchairdebunker saying this is bullshit
.
Mell (37:33):
I, I was right, you did the research and you had boots
on the ground.
Ben (37:37):
And look, my position is always if I'm wrong, then show
me.
Mell (37:45):
And, on that note, this seems like the perfect spot to
take a break in our interviewwith Ben Radford, the world's
foremost expert on thechupacabra.
He literally wrote the book.
Next week we'll finish ourinterview with Ben as well as
share our final thoughts on thislegendary beast.
So until then, spoke at youlater.
Evan (38:09):
Good night everybody.
Mell (38:11):
Bye.
Welcome back to MVP's what the F***?
Paranormal Podcast, where wetalk about, well, everything the
paranormal encompasses.
So you ready?
Let's f***ing do this.
All right, what's up andwelcome back everyone.
This season we've beendiscussing all those creepy
crawly cryptids that go bump inthe night from monsters to
mythical legends.
(00:29):
This week, we're analyzing oneof the world's best known beasts
, the chupacabra oh, whatchupacabra what was that?
Wes (00:37):
chupacabra, chupacabra, chupacabra chupacabra.
Mell (00:43):
He doesn't know how to say chupacabra tonight's episode is
a very special one.
Evan (00:47):
Joining us this fine evening is Mr Benjamin Radford.
If you are in any way familiarwith the topic of cryptozoology,
you've probably seen his namepop up more than a time or two.
Ben is the deputy editor ofSkeptical Enquirer Science
Magazine and is the world's mostprominent expert on the
chupacabra phenomenon.
He is an award-winning authorof over 20 books, countless
(01:07):
articles and has contributed tonumerous other books and
research.
He is also one of the very fewscience-based investigators of
the unexplained phenomena in theworld.
So, needless to say, if ben istalking about cryptids and
monsters, you better listen up,because this man knows his shit.
We can't thank him enough fortaking the time out of his busy
schedule to drop some knowledgeon our dome pieces.
(01:28):
So, without further ado, let'sget into it.
Ben (01:32):
Wow, I'll take it, thank you.
Mell (01:36):
Yeah, sometimes people think that they're talking to
chupacabras, and it's not.
They're not, it's just us.
Wes (01:41):
Man fucking speak for yourself, Shit.
I'm a beautiful man.
Evan (01:47):
Well, Ben, thanks for coming on here with us tonight,
man, and discussing all thiscrazy stuff with us.
Ben (01:52):
Thanks for inviting me.
It's good to be on.
Evan (01:54):
We are anxious to learn some things that we probably
don't know about this topic outthere.
Uh, if you haven't heard of thechupacabra, it's known by many
different, I guess, variationsand and looks.
Depending on where who you talkto, it looks different than
other people claim it to be, butanyways, chupacabra means goat
(02:15):
sucker in spanish, as far as I'maware right that's correct.
Ben (02:19):
Don't google that, by the way.
That's uh.
If you're putting together apowerpoint, just go with
chupacabra, don't Google learnfrom my mistakes, that's
probably a good call.
Wes (02:34):
Just delete that out of my search bar now.
Evan (02:36):
So goat sucker I mean I'm assuming that they're referring
to like it's vampire, likequality qualities where it sucks
the blood of animals orsomething.
Ben (02:46):
Yeah, actually it's interesting.
There's a, there's a whole uh,there's a mini debate, um, among
, uh, among the very small nicheof people who actually give a
shit about this myselfprominently um, it's, it's
actually.
It's actually interestingbecause, uh, in the tv show bon,
there was a reference to achupacabra and this has made
(03:09):
some people think that thechupacabra actually dates back
to the 60s or 50s or evenearlier.
But actually, if you lookclosely at that episode of
Bonanza, it's referring to awhippoorwill bird.
And according to whippoorwilloh, okay, yeah, according to
legend, uh, the whippoorwillbird sucks milk, not blood milk
(03:32):
out of goats, uh, which is whyit's called the goat sucker.
Um, so that's, that's sort ofone of the.
Sometimes you'll hear someonesay oh well, the chupacabra was
mentioned in Bonanza, differentchupacabra, as weird as they may
sound, actually differentchupacabra.
Well, what is it?
Evan (03:51):
That's a good question.
Yeah that is a damn goodquestion.
Ben (03:54):
Let's start at 101.
Chupacabra 101.
Okay, so the chupacabra, it'sprobably, by this point it's
either probably the second orthird best known
cryptozoological monster in theworld after Bigfoot.
Bigfoot is, of course, theMarquis, and then you probably
have Nessie, the Loch Nessmonster, and then Chupacabra,
(04:15):
sort of jockeying for secondposition, and then you have sort
of tertiary monsters JerseyDevil, mothman, lizardman, you
know, take your pick.
And one of the things that Ifind interesting about the
Chupacabra one reason I spent somuch time researching it and
writing a book on it and thingslike that is that, as was
(04:36):
alluded to earlier, it's avampire.
Bigfoot is not a vampire.
Nessie is not a vampire,mothman is not a vampire.
The Chupacabra is specificallya vampire.
Mell (04:45):
Like a bat with wings.
Ben (04:48):
Well, this is what's cool about it, right?
So that's what really intriguedme, because I'm like, well, you
know, yeah, if it's a vampire,then it leaves dead bodies,
right, that's kind of what theydo, or presumably there should
be some, you know, sort offorensic evidence of these sorts
of things.
So the morphology of thechupacabra is.
(05:10):
I mean, we could spend a halfhour on that specifically, but
basically the chupacabra changedform dramatically.
So this is another sort offascinating angle to it, right,
if you look at Bigfoot, theBigfoot that people
conceptualize and think about ispretty much the same as it was
in 1970s, 1950s and so on.
Mell (05:31):
Right.
Ben (05:32):
Same thing with the other creatures, but the Chupacabra is
different in that if you lookonline or in magazines or
wherever else, you'll find quitea wide variety.
So initially the sort of earlyChupacabra was sort of a
spiky-backed bipedal figure withsort of large alien wraparound
(05:55):
eyes spikes down the back, butotherwise bipedal.
Evan (05:59):
It looked more or less like human form and then Sorry
to cut you off, this was thePuerto Rican Chupacabra, like a.
Clip (06:08):
Puerto Rican in his hair.
I spell Puerto Rican.
Y'all know I love Mr PuertoRican.
I spell Puerto Rican in thisRican.
Evan (06:18):
Exactly.
This is the original.
Ben (06:21):
Yeah, so this is the original Chupacabra.
So it sort of breaks down todifferent stages.
So the very original chupacabrawas the one that I just
described.
Um, it was cited by a womannamed madeline tolentino, uh in
august of 1995, uh in in puertorico.
This is what she described.
She didn't call the chupacabrabecause it was not known before
(06:44):
that.
She just said she saw thisweird ass thing basically
outside of her front door andother people sort of made up the
name and attached it to thatfigure.
So that version of Chupacabrabasically went from 1995 to 2000
.
And what happened in 2000 waswhen all of a sudden we have the
quadruped.
This is where we have thechupacabras.
(07:06):
Look like dogs and coyotes andmangy things like that so it
started in the 90s yep 1995 youknow that don't make no sense
though it.
It don't make no sense unlessyou, unless you sort of go back
to the, the origin of it andsort of piece together, which
which I did in my book trackingchupacabra um, I was trying to
(07:29):
figure, okay, well, why did itappear in 1995?
I mean, why not?
Why not 1982 or 1975 or 1800?
Um, so that was sort of the oneof the key parts of the mystery
.
I was trying to look at thedead bodies, eyewitnesses, what
did people say it was?
What would you think it was?
And then, and then, basically,after I had looked, I
(07:49):
interviewed medical forensicsexaminers, uh, talking about,
like you know, if an animal'sattacked, there's basically what
I call the illusion ofvampirism, where an animal can
look like it's been had hisblood sucked out, but it
actually hasn't.
So there's like forensicsinvolved, uh.
And then I was trying to lookback okay, well, where where did
this, where did this thingemerge?
(08:10):
You know, in in august of 95.
So that's what.
That was sort of the fun partof sort of piecing it all
together I have a question.
Mell (08:18):
So you were saying you know your book tracking the
chupacabra.
If I'm not mistaken, that tookfive years of research, right?
It did so how do you researchan urban legend when there's no
evidence of his of his existence?
Ben (08:33):
that's an excellent question.
Um, basically, I began, uh, byassuming the premise that it was
real, right, so I didn't knowit was real.
I I'm a skeptic, obviously, butI'm like, well, if these
chupacabras and keep in mind,like Bigfoot, that can't just be
one of them.
I mean, there has to be abreeding population if they're
(08:54):
actually animals.
Wes (08:55):
Yes, exactly.
Ben (08:56):
So I began my book by trying to well, I actually began
my book by talking about thevampire aspect, and what did
people think the vampires were?
So I was looking, for example,at vampire legends in the 1800s
in Europe and, as Melanie knows,part of my background is in
(09:16):
folklore, so that was basicallyso.
I began by sort of looking at,by placing the Chupacabra in the
context of vampires generally.
The reason I did that wasbecause, if you look at the
history of vampires typically,the reason that the vampires are
created that is why people orsocieties think that vampires
are real is because there'ssomething weird that they can't
(09:37):
explain.
And, oh shit, who knows thisvampire or witches?
Witchcraft is another example,right?
Yeah, you know some.
You know that some lightningstrikes a house or there's a
stillbirth.
Hundreds of years ago, in thepre-scientific era, they didn't
know who to blame, so they blamethe witch down the road, they
blame a vampire, they blame somesupernatural cause.
(09:58):
And the same thing happened, Iargue, in my book with the
chupacabra, where you had theseunexplained animal mutilations
that they didn't have anexplanation for.
So they're like well, it mustbe that chupacabra thing, and so
that's the connection that Imake.
Evan (10:13):
Now, were any of these animal mutilations actually
drained?
Ben (10:18):
of blood?
No, they weren't, and that'sone of the most common
misconceptions.
What you find is that,typically, when somebody finds
an animal that they think hasbeen drained of blood and keep
in mind that in these cases,these aren't professionally
autopsied, right.
So what you find is that inmost of the chupacabra victim
(10:41):
cases, there will be an animal.
The animal will almost looklike it's sleeping.
It's not ripped up, it's notbleeding out, there's not blood
everywhere.
It seems to just be sittingthere by itself and if you look
closely, there's two puncturemarks on the neck.
Well, of course, you're goingto think vampires, because
that's the classic vampire.
Evan (10:59):
Hell yeah, that's what I would think.
Ben (11:00):
Right, but in fact, what happened was that you know it
was typically these are.
This is ordinary predation.
So these are dogs and coyotesthat will attack at the neck,
they'll crush the neck and thenthe animal will die of internal
hemorrhaging.
Who started it?
Who started it?
What happened was Let me tellyou a story, jonathan.
So here's the thing.
(11:21):
So, just like you have to placethe vampire, you have to place
the chupacabra in the context ofvampires.
You have to place thispredation in the context of the
chupacabra.
So there were some ordinarypredation going on in Puerto
Rico, but in this case, a womannamed Madeline Tolentino, who
you mentioned earlier, sawsomething weird.
Clip (11:43):
Oh my God, what is that?
Oh my God, what is that?
Oh my God, what is that?
Ben (11:49):
I actually interviewed her so she actually told two
different versions of the storyand if you're interested I'll
parse them out later on.
But basically the main versionthat she told was that it was
broad daylight, she didn'tremember the day, but she said
it was the second week sometime,the second week of August of 95
.
And she was living with hermother.
(12:09):
And I went back to the housewhere this whole encounter
happened and she said that shewas there with her mother and
she looked out the window and itwas broad daylight early
afternoon.
She looked out the window andshe saw this creature that she
had no idea what it was.
She described it as, as Imentioned, sort of it had three
fingers and toes, it stood likea human, it had big eyes, it had
(12:32):
very distinctive spikes goingdown the spine, it had no nose,
just two little slits and asmall mouth.
And she describes seeing thisthing and, but she doesn't freak
out, she's right, which I findodd, frankly.
Mell (12:50):
I had to shit myself.
I'm not even.
Clip (12:53):
Yeah, I would speaking of shitting yourself, I shit my
pants.
I don't know why I ever tookthat chance.
Ben (13:11):
Speaking of shitting yourself, she is very You're
wondering where this is going togo.
Right, Speaking of shittingyourself?
Let me tell you folks.
So, Tolentino, in theinterviews that she gave me, and
also other ones I dug up thatshe gave in 96, she gave this
(13:32):
very elaborate, detaileddescription.
She said that she was lookingfor genitalia.
Clip (13:36):
What is she doing?
I'm not under there.
Ben (13:38):
She's looking for my balls.
Clip (13:41):
Hey, if anyone's seen Decton's balls, let me know.
They're about this, big but alot tinier.
They're like a pea or like aball bearing or like if you've
ever seen a mouse ball Abouthalf that size, incredibly tiny.
They're like really, reallytiny little girl balls If little
girls had balls.
So if you find little tiny girlballs that are so fucking tiny
(14:04):
and shriveled up, let me know,because I'll put them right back
up his scrotum.
Ben (14:11):
Obviously that's the first place, I'd look.
Of course.
Right, she's like hey, let me,is it a boy or a girl?
I don't know Where's the junk?
Right, look at his balls.
Right, can you get a load ofthe chupacabra's balls?
So she's describing copper'sballs.
So she's describing.
So she, she says it was, uh,the word she used.
Well, it was in spanish, butbasically it was sealed that
(14:32):
they had.
No, it didn't have a, it didn'thave a butthole, didn't have a
dick, didn't have a vulva.
It was just basically smoothand I mean, I don't know
whatever, I don't want to getall weird on
you.
So I know that ship has sailed,but so anyway.
So she's, she's talking, butshe's talking to her, her mother
, about this creature thatthey're apparently both seeing
(14:53):
again just outside her window.
And then she says, well, shesaid it skipped away, but then
she said it kind of flew awayand then she said it sort of
hopped.
So she gave slightlycontradictory descriptions of
how it left the area, and thevery first people that
interviewed her about this was agroup of UFO buffs in Puerto
(15:15):
Rico.
Mell (15:16):
So this is a monster and she's reaching towards alien
buffs.
Ben (15:21):
Well, right, so there's a strong presence of UFO believers
in Puerto Rico.
So what happened?
Was they heard about this?
They're like this woman sawthis weird thing, maybe it's
alien related.
So they went and interviewedher and they basically put their
own spin on her sighting.
So she never said it was alien,she just said that she saw this
(15:43):
weird thing.
So the group of UFO believers,including it, was led by a guy
named Jorge Martin.
He's the head of this local UFOgroup.
He interviews her and hebasically elicits these
connections to extraterrestrialsand UFOs.
And that's why, later on, onetheory is that when aliens were
(16:05):
visiting Puerto Rico, rico, uh,it was an alien pet, like, like
a dog or dog dog, that's like itran out.
They couldn't get it back.
So the, the flying saucershowed up in puerto rico.
Uh, the aliens are looking forsomebody to put something up
their butts, whatever.
Uh, the chupacabra is their petwho, like, ran out the door
when they weren't looking andescaped into the, into the
(16:28):
forest.
Mell (16:29):
Oh no, I got to stomp the brakes and put the idea right
through the fucking windshield.
On that one, I'm sorry, I justcan't.
Wes (16:35):
You can't picture an alien dog just no escaping into the
force.
Puerto Rico.
No all smooth like a.
Evan (16:42):
Ken doll Buster got away out on another damn planet.
We got track him down.
Wes (16:47):
Yeah, like what the fuck is this shit?
I told you to put a collar onhim.
Ben (16:51):
Right, right.
Yeah, they can come all the wayacross the universe, but they
can't keep track of their pet.
Wes (16:55):
Yeah, what kind of shit is this?
Ben (16:57):
So okay.
So if you don't buy that theoryhe said advisedly then there's
another theory, which is that no, no, it's not extraterrestrial,
it's actually the product oftop secret experiments gone
wrong, like, like now, we'retalking Now see, there you go
this is.
Mell (17:17):
this is more of the group that's what I heard Like they
had.
They were just research monkeyson the Puerto Rican Caribbean
Primate Research Center and thatthey somehow bounced and
escaped.
Ben (17:30):
Right.
So in Puerto Rico, the mainplaces that's identified as the
origin or the home of Chupacabrais called the El Uque
Rainforest.
The rumor is that somewheredeep in the jungle there is a
top secret underground base andthis is where the Chupacabra was
being experimented on untilthere was a um, a hurricane, and
(17:51):
so that that's.
One of the stories is that theChupacabra is this Frankenstein
engineered, uh, military monsterthat the hurricane came through
it, it blew out a window or youknow, I don't know, did
something, and this is when itescaped.
Wes (18:08):
It's fucking crazy.
Just some straight island of DrMonroe stuff happening.
Mell (18:13):
Exactly.
Why do you think so many peoplethink that it's real though?
Ben (18:18):
Well, there's a couple of things here.
Part of the reason that somepeople believe in it is that you
look at folklore, right, and soif you look at who believed in
Chupacabra at first, this isprimarily a rural thing.
So this is where you have farms, you have ranchers, you have
for lack of a better word notwell-educated people not looking
(18:39):
down on them, but just ranchers.
And so what you find is that,for the ranchers and farmers,
they had a reason to believe inChupacabra because to them it
was a real threat.
If something is attacking youranimals, you're given an
explanation.
If you're given a pseudoexplanation, then you're going
to pay attention to this.
It was, as I mentioned, oftenthe subject of tabloids.
The mainstream newspapers inSan Juan weren't reporting on it
(19:02):
because they thought it wasbullshit.
One one.
One way that that that sort oftranslated into the real world
was that it tended to be morerural folks um, in many cases
less educated who were sharingthese, these stories about the
chupacabras.
You know, if you're, if you'rea lawyer or a doctor in san juan
, you don't give a shit.
(19:22):
The chupacabra isn't, it's notrelevant to you, right?
If you're a rancher in ruralPuerto Rico, you need to best
you know, if you might only have, you know, 15 head of cattle
and two goats and if they, ifthey die, that's your livelihood
.
The other thing that happenedwas that the reason that people
believed in it was that therewas local, local politician who
(19:46):
was who was telling people thatif you vote for me, I'll protect
you from the chupacabra shut up?
Wes (19:51):
damn no way, fucking course , jesus.
Ben (19:57):
Hey, man, the opportunity's there, you know, dive on it
right and and it sounds weird,but like using boogeyman and
politics, this is standardprocedure, of procedure.
This has happened.
Wes (20:08):
It's happening right now.
Ben (20:09):
In this case he's like again he's playing to his base
If you vote for me, I'll protectyou from the Chupacabra.
Like well, shit, you got myvotes, damn.
Mell (20:21):
That's some straight mob shit.
That has shown that when peoplehave high anxiety or a lot of
stress about whether it'spolitics or like a real threat,
then if they can focus onto aspecific target it will reduce
their stress levels when they'rethinking about their own
(20:43):
government.
So I can see how he could usethis chupacabra to try and take
their stress away from what'sgoing on in politics onto this.
It kind of gives them relief.
Ben (20:58):
Yeah, and even if you don't believe in it, you know there's
no harm.
I mean, yeah, maybe someonemade fun of him, but he got
reelected.
He was the mayor of Canovas, Ithink, for like 20 years or
something.
Mell (21:08):
That's insane.
Ben (21:09):
No, you're exactly right, and that's actually one of the
reasons why Texas specificallyhas such a high number of
chupacabra reports, for a reasonyou just mentioned, which is
that when you're looking atanimals with sarcoptic mane,
typically what happens is thatand this is actually due in part
(21:30):
to global warming that's weird.
Exactly here's how this works.
Is that, basically, you haveanimals because here in the
southwest and other places aswell, they're getting warmer and
warmer.
Animals are living longer,whereas they would have died
during the cold snaps, right?
So an animal has mange andtypically, because it loses its
(21:52):
fur, its insulation, they woulddie off more quickly because
during the harsh winters, butbecause the winters are getting
milder, more of them aresurviving, even with sarcoptic
mange, and they're lookingweirder and creepier because
they're losing more and morehair.
So there's actually a climatelink to why there's more and
more chupacabra reports over thelast, say, 10, 15 years.
Evan (22:15):
Isn't that what they determined with the chupacabra
specimen that they found?
That Texas rancher found thePhyllis Canyon?
Clip (22:23):
Is that how you say it?
Evan (22:24):
Yeah, canyon, okay, canyon , is that how you say?
Yeah, canyon, okay.
And they?
They had that.
Uh, that chupacabra allegedchupacabra body, uh, dna tested
at the tsu, didn't they?
They did, yeah, they did andfrom what I understand it came
back.
It was like a a coyote, or acoyote mixed with a mexican wolf
, or something yes, that was so.
Ben (22:44):
That's an interesting story .
So I, I, so Phyllis Canyon was,as you mentioned, she was a
ranger out in Cuero, texas,actually, for the TV show
Monster Quest.
They flew me out there to, to,to, to meet Phyllis Canyon and
look at her chupacabra.
And it was interesting becausethe night before in the hotel I
was meeting with the TV showproducers.
(23:06):
I was like I can explain, I canexplain this to you if you, if
you want, if you want me toexplain sort of the context of
the chupacabra here, I'm happyto do it.
Uh, he's like no, no, wealready have the script.
Just, you know, we call time 730.
We'll pick you up, we'll takeyou there.
I'm like okay, well, if youdecide you want to actually
(23:26):
understand this, let me knowthey're not interested in that.
Mell (23:30):
No, no, no no no we got it covered already.
Ben (23:33):
Yeah, we know the script.
We already know what we want tosay Thanks, but no thanks.
You wrote a book, whatever.
So, I'm like whatever.
I mean, I'm used to this.
I've done enough TV.
I'm like whatever, AlthoughI've done enough TV, and like
whatever, Although I will.
I will give a shout out to JoshGates.
I was on his show, actuallyDestination Truth or Destination
(23:54):
Unknown.
I was on both of them and hehad me out there in Puerto Rico.
It was actually a pretty goodshow.
We ended up in a cave, kneedeep in batshit.
Mell (24:04):
Oh guano, good times, good times.
Ben (24:08):
That was fun, um, but to his credit, uh, even though it
was a little moresensationalized than it would
have liked, it was actually apretty good show.
So shout out to him, but so so.
So we for for phil's canyon,the one that you mentioned.
So we go out there for thecamera crew.
They want you to meet somebody.
Like five times.
They're like knock on the door,pretend that we're not here,
okay oh hi, never didn't see youthere.
(24:31):
No, do it again.
So so, uh, so we meet with herand she's like do you want to
see the chupacabra?
I'm like, yeah, that's whywe're here, obviously.
So she takes us in from theliving room, out the back, into,
uh, the garage, and she opensup a freezer.
So she opens up the freezer and, like, she takes out ice cream
(24:51):
and then, like you know, somechicken wings, and then there's
a severed dog head no, nowrapped in plastic don't, don't,
oh yeah, that's my kind of ladydude okay, all right.
Well, here's the severed coyotehead.
So she takes it over.
So of course the camera wantsher to take it out four or five
(25:13):
times we get to that.
So I actually got a chance tolook at this thing and examine
it.
So she's telling the story andI'm not in the shot, but I'm
hearing her talk and she'stelling the camera guys and
telling the producer.
Well, you know I saw this thingand you know she talked about
how she found this chupacabraand you know she cut the head
(25:35):
off and it was so strangebecause it didn't.
She's like it has no hair on it.
It's the weirdest thing.
She's like it can't be mangebecause mangy animals have some
hair on it and she's like itdoesn't have any hair.
So I mean I'm hearing her saythis and I'm looking at the and
I'm like I see hair right here.
(25:56):
It's literally like I I don'thave any hair, but there's hair.
I I can that thing that she'ssaying it doesn't have it
obviously has it you just panright over here if you don't
right here.
It's right fucking here.
You don't need to zoom in, youcan get it from that just man,
we got to stick to the script,you know, right?
Wes (26:14):
we?
Ben (26:14):
got a script dude, so I'm like whatever.
So.
So we we wrapped up and thenlater on in as I talk about in
in my book.
So basically, what happened wasthat, um, it was halloween I
forget what year, but it'shalloween and as part of a
Halloween special, a local TVstation I thought it was San
Antonio I think it was decidedthey were going to do a DNA test
(26:35):
on the chupacabra.
Ooh, I know right, I'm likefinally some actual science.
So they did the DNA test and,as was alluded to earlier, the
answer came out coyote Bigsurprise.
Phyllis didn't like that answer,so she's like well.
She says well, I'm a doctor.
Can you guess what kind ofdoctor she is?
Wes (27:18):
She's a naturopath.
You fucking crazy man you soundinsane.
Evan (27:19):
Do you realize that you should be medicated?
Wes (27:20):
elaborate what the fuck is that.
Yeah, hold on, hold on.
Yeah, pump the brakes.
Ben (27:23):
Someone needs to explain that the point is that she was
making it sound like herbackground had some bearing on
genetic analysis, which ofcourse did not.
Mell (27:30):
No, no, it's a holistic doctor pretty much yeah, that's
yeah, it's not.
Ben (27:35):
Is that what it is?
Mell (27:37):
they kind of mix some science and natural therapy and
then they take some sort of likeholistic approach to treating,
rubbing essential oils on yourbody and eating chickpeas, kind
of thing it's like step up fromthat.
Wes (27:53):
It sounds like a good time so.
Ben (27:57):
So she's like okay, well, I'm gonna pay for my own dna
test, because you know thegovernment is, you know she
agreed to the dna test.
It comes back and answers shedoesn't like.
She's like well, I'm gonnasubmit it again on my own, I'm
going to pay for it.
This time they're like it'syour coyote, do whatever you
want.
So she sends.
So she she's like this isbullshit.
So she sends it off to another,another lab.
(28:19):
She pays for this and it comesback the the same.
At this point she's like well,maybe it's a coyote, but it's
also a chupacabra.
Wes (28:28):
Oh, interesting, yeah, that checks, out.
Mell (28:36):
She wanted it to be.
Ben (28:36):
So, no matter what you said , it was going to be a
chupacabra.
Well, so I asked her.
I said well, Phyllis, I meanI'm trying not to sound
condescending, but you know I'mlike well, Phyllis, what you did
, what you did, I'm like okay,you admit that it's at least
half coyote, but you say it's achupacabra.
How does that work?
(28:58):
He's like well, I think thechupacabra is a coyote mixed
with a wolf.
I'm like Phyllis, here's thething we already know what a
coyote and a wolf mix is like.
They're called coy wolves.
They exist, they're not unknownto science, they don't suck
(29:19):
blood and they're nothing likethis mangy dog yet.
Mell (29:26):
And then she's like well, you know the, the animals.
Uh, their eyes glow inphotographs of course, so do
mine.
Ben (29:30):
Thank you, thank you.
So I'm like phyllis.
Again, phyllis, here's thething.
Do you know why they onlyreflect in photographs?
Here's why Because they'reflashes, because there's a flash
reflection.
This is not a thing, and that'swhy it's only in photographs,
(29:52):
because it's the same witheverybody else.
It's called red eye.
This has been known.
Phyllis, you didn't discoveranything new.
This has been known.
Phyllis, you didn't discoveranything new.
This has been known formillennia.
Well, again, I'm trying to benice, but it's just sort of like
uh, uh, but she, she was nice.
Uh, I bought a t-shirt from her,I bought a beer cozy, which I
have hold, on hold, on hold, onhold on, like chupacabra t-shirt
(30:16):
and beer koozie yes, yes, yeah,so she's, she sold
merchandising the shit out ofthat huh oh, yeah, she was she,
she so that explains the secondtesting yeah, yeah, because,
well, because she, she literallycalled herself the chupacabra
lady, so she had a vestedinterest, literal financial.
Yeah, she had financial gainyeah she's like's like so and I
(30:40):
mean I don't blame her for it,but I mean it's like so.
Yeah, I mean I, I she signedthings for me.
I mean she was nice so I wasn'tgoing to argue with her.
I mean I'm not there to likewe're in a parade.
(31:01):
Looks like right, that that isa known thing, you can google it
, it's, it's real and it'snothing like what you found.
And and besides that, she keptsaying there's no, there's no
hair on this, on this majorchupacabra, and I can fucking
see the hair.
I'm like, look, it's rightthere.
It's literally in thephotograph you gave me.
You're petting it.
That's not a shadow that's hair.
Wes (31:18):
So, ben, before all the testing was done, right when you
were there and you watched herpull, pull this head out, when
you seen it were you just in theback of your mind like that's a
fucking coyote, like did youknow?
Ben (31:33):
I suspected pretty early on .
But what was interesting wasthat again she in her mind, in
phyllis's mind, she had thesesets of reasons why it couldn't
be a coyote, despite thegenetics she's like.
Well, but the mouth isdifferent, because, for example,
the mouth looks bigger than acoyote.
Well, what happens is thatthat's actually a function of
(31:55):
the sarcoptic mange.
So when animals have mange,mange, the skin tightens and
then that pulls back, yeah, theflesh around the mouth.
So again all the things thatshe was like saying, well, what
about this, what it is, whatabout this?
I'm like this is all.
This can all be explained.
I mean, I'm not trying to be mrdebunking skeptic here, but you
(32:15):
gotta give me more than this,because this is clearly coyote
yeah, also where.
Evan (32:19):
Also, where's the rest of the body?
Why'd you just cut the head off?
Wes (32:22):
Well, she probably couldn't get their ice cream in there.
Ben (32:25):
Phyllis said that she found I think two, two, two
chupacabras, so one of them, asI recall.
So in her house there's lots oftaxidermy.
So I'm not a tax, I'm not ahunter, I mean whatever, but I
she, yeah, you go in her house,she's, you know, antelope and
deer and bear, and God knowsit's such a.
So at some point I think therewas a chupacabra coyote in her
(32:50):
house.
Mell (32:52):
You would just see that.
Yeah, you would think, if shecaught a chupacabra she would
mount that bitch right, you knowas soon as you walk in the door
.
Ben (33:04):
That's probably why she had the head in the freezer.
That makes sense, well,actually.
So there's a funny story, justas a quick aside.
So there was in not not inCuero, texas, but in Blanco,
texas there was a guy namedJerry Air and he actually
taxidermied an allegedchupacabra.
So I talked to him and I waslike you know, you're an expert,
right.
(33:25):
He's like, yeah, I was like didyou see anything unusual about
this?
I mean this.
I'll be honest, this looks alot like a coyote.
He's like it looks like acoyote to me, but the guy that
paid me to taxidermy it hewanted it to be, chupacabra.
Hey, he's like I'm not, I'm notgetting paid to identify it.
Wes (33:45):
I'm getting paid to stuff it.
I saw the pictures of thatthing.
Ben (33:47):
It looked creepy as shit, though.
It did look creepy, yeah, butdid he make it look that creepy?
Uh, I think I don't.
I didn't ask him whether hemade it creepy, it was, it was
kind of weird anyway.
But so the guy that bought itwas a creationist named, uh,
john adolf.
The reason he wanted theChupacabra was because he has a
creationist museum and hethought the Chupacabra disproved
evolution.
Evan (34:07):
Oh, Smart guy huh.
Ben (34:10):
So his logic is well, those egghead scientists, those
evolution scientists, they saythe Chupacabra can't exist.
Yet here it is Obviouslyobviously.
If they're wrong about that,then they're wrong about
evolution too.
Oh yeah, of course of course,that makes sense why didn't I
see it?
Mell (34:28):
I don't know.
You know we're slacking.
That's what's.
That's the problem with us?
Yeah, if there isn't anytangible evidence, should that
preclude the possibility of itsexistence at all?
Like, is there leeway forpossibility just because,
because you know, absence ofevidence is not evidence of
(34:49):
absence, according to williamwright, sure?
Ben (34:53):
no, I I would agree with that.
I mean so the the chupacabra,it's, the again there's.
There's a couple aspects to itthat are distinctive.
I've talked about a couplebefore.
Again, it's a vampire, it's avampire dog right, Well, again
it.
Wes (35:09):
Sometimes, sometimes, no butthole.
Mell (35:12):
That's the most important thing.
Doesn't have the chocolatestarfish.
Ben (35:15):
Not only do we not have scat, we don't have bones, we
don't even have tracks.
This is really killing, right?
Yeah, bigfoot is known forbeing blurry but also leaving
tracks, yeah, so blurry.
So let's say there's I don'tknow.
Let's say there's 10 000chupacabras out there.
They have four legs.
So, uh, every with every step,uh, every two steps, they're
(35:37):
creating exponential, like thereshould be literally hundreds of
thousands of chupacabra tracksacross North America, south
America or whatever.
There's not even one.
And besides that, again, onceyou recognize that their alleged
prey are not in fact drained ofblood, I mean, again, in the
(35:58):
rare cases where somebody hasactually gone and said, you know
, you say this is a chupacabravictim.
Yes, cut it open, there's bloodthere, right?
So we know for a fact.
So what are they drinking,right?
So all these things sort ofcome together.
But it's certainly true that inmy research and as Melanie, as
you know and you know, I've donethis for a long time 20 years
(36:22):
or so and I look into a varietyof things curses, ghosts and all
sorts of things and, forexample, every now and then
there'll be someone who will saywell, you're just a debunking
skeptic.
You say Bigfoot don't exist.
I said no, or ghost.
I said I have never, ever saidsay bigfoot don't exist.
(36:43):
I said no, or ghost.
I said I have never, ever saidthe bigfoot can't exist.
I have never, ever claimed theghost cannot exist, right?
I?
I've searched all you wantinterviews, books, articles.
I've never said that.
Why haven't I said that?
But the reason you bring up islike I can't that scientifically
I don't know.
We can't say you can't, youcan't prove a universal negative
.
That being said, what I can sayis that the all the evidence
(37:06):
that I've seen points to thesenot existing.
Tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, there could be
better evidence, but as of now,I have looked at this and in
some cases I've done fieldresearch.
I mean, I've, I've, I've doneit.
Uh, yeah, I've spent, I'vespent time in the jungles of
nicaragua.
I've, I've been in, I'vetraveled around south america.
(37:27):
I spent five years on this.
I'm not just some armchairdebunker saying this is bullshit
.
Mell (37:33):
I, I was right, you did the research and you had boots
on the ground.
Ben (37:37):
And look, my position is always if I'm wrong, then show
me.
Mell (37:45):
And, on that note, this seems like the perfect spot to
take a break in our interviewwith Ben Radford, the world's
foremost expert on thechupacabra.
He literally wrote the book.
Next week we'll finish ourinterview with Ben as well as
share our final thoughts on thislegendary beast.
So until then, spoke at youlater.
Evan (38:09):
Good night everybody.
Mell (38:11):
Bye.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!