This week I’m Curious About… Retention & CX in the DTC CX Space. In this new episode (#117) of the @my curious colleague podcast I chat with @Eli Weiss- a Retention & CX Thought Leader - about the dynamic world of consumer care and retention in the direct-to-consumer arena..!
🔗Podcast link here: https://lnkd.in/gYr8uKPf
Key Highlights:
Eli shares the secret sauce to retention: understanding your customers' needs and creating genuine connections, rather than just pushing for sales.
Discover how blending AI with human touch can elevate customer experiences, ensuring that every interaction is both efficient and empathetic! (Psst… how empathetic do we want AI to be vs. us humans..?)
Learn an example of how successful brands craft a cohesive communication strategy, seamlessly integrating email and SMS to truly engage their customers.
To learn more about Eli and subscribe – Check out his LinkedIn Page https://www.linkedin.com/in/eliweisss/ and sign up for Eli’s Newsletter at https://www.eliweisss.com/subscribe.com. To learn more about @yotpo where Eli is VP of Consumer Retention Advocacy, go to yotpo.com
#podcast #customerexperience #retentionstrategies #directtoconsumer #cpgcx
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Denise Venneri (00:00):
Welcome to the My Curious Colleague podcast
with me, Denise Venneri. I am atwenty year practitioner in the
consumer engagement space,having worked for two large CPG
organizations. My intent here isreally to share best practices
with particular focus around thespecialist and analyst roles and
(00:21):
to give back to this greatcommunity because CPGCX rocks.
Hello, my curious colleagues. This week,
I'm curious about consumer careand retention specifically in
the direct to consumer space andbeyond. And to help me
understand just that is mycolleague Eli Weiss, a retention
(00:44):
thought leader and VP ofretention advocacy at Yotpo.
Welcome to the podcast Eli.
Eli Weiss (00:52):
Thanks for having me. I'm excited about this
conversation.
Denise Venneri (00:55):
Same here. Same here. And the reason I wanted to
hear from you is, you know, Idon't think it's a prediction,
but it it is a belief that Ihave that all future CPG,
consumer finance, consumeraffairs functions, the one that
I've had my experience in, willeventually have some or full
responsibility to support TTCand online sales. Right? Like,
(01:21):
say, for example, you've got ahealth bar and it's you went
right into the retail market andgot great distribution.
And then for some strategicreason, you moved to DTC, you
know, and you're responsible forthat. Those sales there online,
but then also they launch awearable, for example. This is
really a crazy example. But thatwearable is not offered in
(01:44):
retail and only online. Soanyway, I I my my thinking is
eventually consumer affairs willhave to support.
So that's why I like to havethis sort of discussion with you
to understand that piece ofthings. So let's get back to you
and let's begin with you tellingus how you got to here.
Eli Weiss (02:06):
Yeah. I I appreciate you taking the time, to chat
with me. I think for most,careers are kind of a pre a pre
planned event with a little bitof maybe a detour, but I think
most people kind of decide whatthey wanna do when they're in
high school. They go to collegefor that. They finish college.
They start kind of decidingwhat's working, what isn't, and
slowly kind of morph theircareer to what they're
(02:28):
interested in. Mhmm. For me, itwas a little bit different. I
grew up number two of 10children in a very orthodox
Jewish world. So verynontraditional background.
Most of the people from mycommunity just kind of jumped
into whatever their family didor whatever their neighbor did
or kind of, like, chose to workat at a familiar company or
familiar space. For me, I had noidea what I wanted to do. I
(02:51):
didn't graduate high school,until I did my GED in my
twenties and go to college,traveled the world in my early
twenties. So saw, you know, abunch of Europe, 20 something
countries before I was, like,23. So really wasted a lot of my
time, just messing around andgot to a point where I needed I
needed some sort of a job.
(03:12):
And I jumped into ecomm,customer service because I
thought I understood whatcustomers wanted being a
difficult customer myself. Iwould kind of call these
companies and ask for something,and they'd kind of say, like,
we're sorry. There's nothing wecan do. And in the back of my
head, I'm like, I just wanna beheard and understood. And I
(03:32):
remember being like achronically difficult, like, 16
year old being, you know, kindagoing back and forth with
someone at some company.
And at some point, I said, like,you could have easily gotten me
off the call if you just tooksome sort of accountability and
responsibility and just said,like, we get it. We messed up.
We apologize. Truly, I wish Ican help, but there's nothing in
my power I can do. At least showme that you're personally
(03:54):
invested.
And I think for me, that waslike a really, really, felt like
a unique understanding and howeasy customer service can be if
you just took accountability.That led me to my first customer
service job in my earlytwenties, at a luggage brand,
super delayed on Kickstarter.Most of the customers wanted a
refund. The money wasn't quitethere to refund because they
spent it on development. And forme, it was just being brutally
(04:16):
honest and authentic about whathas been going on and taking
personal accountability justtransformed the business.
So that was really early, earlystart in CX. Again, like, very,
very different than the moreevolved parts of of, the
industry. I think CX was kind oflike retention. It was just
finding its footing in the lastten years in direct to consumer
(04:36):
brands Mhmm. Or the last twentyyears, especially, like you
said, direct to consumer versusmore retail forward, businesses
and kind of, like, having thatunique connection one to one
with customers is is nothundreds of years old.
It's tens. So I spent a bunch oftime there, got excited about
startups because it was, like,the only place I can kind of,
(04:56):
like, earn my way there withouthaving to prove anything other
than the fact that I was willingto do the work. Spent a bunch of
years just kind of doingcustomer service, and then
eventually kind of had abreakout role in Olipop. I was
there early days, number 16. Sawthat business go from 16 to 75
and kind of ballooned past thereover the last couple of years.
(05:18):
Eventually jumped into a beautybrand called Jones Road Beauty,
which was founded by BobbyBrown. So saw, like, a
bootstrapped celebrity ownedstartup. I was there for almost
two years. And then long storyshort, midlife crisis or quarter
life crisis into a into atechnology company, which is a
longer story for maybe adifferent time, but kind of the
(05:41):
evolution of customer service tocustomer experience, to building
a network around that, togetting excited about retention,
to getting excited aboutflipping onto the other side,
and better understanding how toservice the people that I spent
a decade plus working alongside.
Denise Venneri (05:57):
Wow. I'm exhausted. Just How do
Eli Weiss (06:00):
you think I feel?
Denise Venneri (06:01):
Just thinking about that those careers. But
what you depict to me is thisphrase I had heard last year,
this rock wall. Is it rock wall,Clammy? Yeah. Where instead of
just having, you know, going upthe proverbial career ladder
straight on up, breaking theglass ceiling for women,
etcetera.
It's more of like, differentsteps you take a little to the
(06:22):
right, a little to the left,eventually you reach your goal.
So that's pretty cool. And, andyou are a pretty savvy 16 year
old. I gotta I gotta tell youthat.
Eli Weiss (06:32):
What is it that they say about, like, necessity
breeding innovation? I think,you know, growing up in a very
large family in a very kind of,like, sheltered territory, you
know, like, we we didn't reallyhave access to TV. We weren't
widely available on theInternet. So I I think you just
you just become, like, you justyou just innovate because that's
all you have. For me, you know,growing up in a large family, I
(06:53):
was always I always just, as anykid does, you want new things,
you want things that yourparents can't necessarily, as
much money as they will everhave.
10 kids is just a lot. And youcome up with creative ways to
find the things you wanna do.And for me, that was like, you
know, my grandparents worked,they had a food distribution
company and I would kind of likefinagle some free kind of like
(07:15):
chocolate coated wafers from mygrandfather and then flip it up
cost price or full price. Solike there were innovative ways
where I where I made some moneyas a kid and then use that money
to try to buy things. Then I'dbuy things and I'd work six
months to be able to afford thispair of shoes I was excited
about.
And then I got it and two weekslater, it just, like, wasn't
great quality. And as a 16 yearold, you you kind of you're
(07:37):
like, what if I call them? Willthey help me? So yeah.
Denise Venneri (07:41):
Well, we're we are simpatico on one thing. One,
I am the second, but second offour children. But I believe
that that exact phrase thatpeople, you know, consumers just
wanna be heard. For sure. Forsure.
Let's let's keep on thisesoteric, I think, reflection
conversation here. And when Iasked you, could you help me,
(08:03):
you know, propose frame up areally juicy question, So I
don't always do, but you framedup this one. Where do you see
the battle between AI, yes,artificial intelligence, versus
humanity that's currently goingon, and where might you see it
in in the future?
Eli Weiss (08:21):
So I think the promise of AI, and I've been
like a fairly early user of,like, the the AI interface back
when it was, like, open sourcein the early days of of OpenAI.
And I I think the promise we wegot was this won't necessarily
take away jobs. It'll give youan opportunity to do more high
(08:41):
leverage tasks. And I think Ithink that was to some extent a
lie. Right?
Like, I think ChatGPT willultimately over time take away
jobs. And the question is, like,what happens after that, which
is not a discussion that thatI'm smart enough to to have on
this podcast. But I I think thatthe the promise we had was it'll
open up time for more highleverage tasks, and I just don't
(09:03):
see businesses doing that today.Right? So I think businesses
have chosen to either fullystaff a team with a hundred
humans, especially on CX.
Right? You either have a hundredhumans or entirely AI and not a
single person on the team. And II just think that's, like, a
fatal mistake for customerexperience as a whole. I think
the promise, we had shouldshould kind of you know, I think
(09:26):
as as any pendulum swings, we'llswing pretty strongly both ways,
but I think where we'll end upis is a highly leveraged human
team that helps, you know, like,what we have today with, like,
chat bots and elementary FAQdocs and kind of, like, running
in circles to try to get ananswer that you don't quite get.
I think AI on chat will getmuch, much better and resolve 70
(09:47):
to 80% of the problems.
And the other 20% of theproblems, you'll have, like, a
fully equipped, really high EQteam that'll kind of hand hold
you to get to the, you know,like, when when shit really hits
the fan, when you're reallyfrustrated and you've gone back
and forth with the executiveoffice on god knows what for god
knows how long, I think that'swhen you'll have really, really
(10:07):
high leverage, well paid, humansthat'll jump in and kind of
create order. And, again, like,the the back and forth on, like,
can AI be super empathetic?Maybe. Is that the world we
wanna live in where you talk torobots because they're more
empathetic than humans? I mean,not me.
Yikes. Right? Yikes. Yeah.That's that's my thoughts.
(10:28):
It's like, yikes. And I I dothink, yes, AI can respond like
a human, but I do think thehighly leveraged important
impactful moments for your topcustomers for when things really
break, you know, the servicerecover recovery paradox when
when things are really broken, II I truly think that's where
humans shine, and I thinkbusinesses are going way too far
to the left or or the right,whichever team you're on here.
Denise Venneri (10:50):
Yeah. What what I'm hearing is we're not yet
there on what it's gonna end up.I think there's there is going
to be this trial and error. Somesome error, excuse me, some
people probably haven't evendipped their toe in AI. But
seeing all this going on andwondering, I think is, is,
interesting taking up a lot ofour time, but we do love the
(11:14):
details here at, my curiouscolleague, Eli, and I'm
wondering if we can get into thedetails into some examples of
where maybe it's beenimplemented and an outcome that
you've seen?
Eli Weiss (11:28):
Yeah. I think Please. The the the quick wins that I've
seen, and I'll I'll give youboth on customer experience and
retention. I think from aretention point of view, there's
so much guesswork. And I thinkbrands look at email and look at
SMS and look at larger retentionchannels.
It's like, how do I continue toget to, like, statistically
significant outcomes that I canthen leverage to kind of do
(11:50):
phase two and phase three andkeep testing and keep iterating?
And I think what a lot of brandshave lost is the ability to, a,
deeply understand large swathsof information, and, b, kind of,
like, deduce potential nextsteps based on that information.
And I think that's one thingthat AI does really, really
well. So for example, if I'verun 27 different campaigns, here
(12:12):
are the data here here's kind oflike the outcomes of each and
every single one of these,whether it's the conversion,
whether it's the revenue perrecipient, whatever kind of
outcome you're looking for, andthen be able to kind of feed all
that information into an AIinfrastructure and decide, like,
okay. Here's what I've done sofar.
And kind of talking to the AIand say, keep me honest. Like,
is there anything I should havetested that I didn't? Is there
(12:36):
something I should kind of like,any any any outcome that you
think I should take from this?So I think that's, like,
something that I've seen workquite well is just feeding all
your information, to as simpleas, oh, as ChatGPT. I think the
the other kind of, like, theflip of that is leveraging a
tool, like, whether it's TripleWhale or, like, a lot of these
data analytics tools, you cankind of just connect to your
(12:56):
website, and you can just have,like, they they have that
chatbot that you can basicallyinstead of running code, to kind
of, like, query your data, youcan just treat it like it's a
human and ask questions directlylayered on top of your data.
So basically say like, hey,looking at the last three weeks,
which channel has been mostefficient for increasing
(13:19):
lifetime value or which cohortof customers has been the
strongest? And historically,you'd need multiple data
analysts and a datainfrastructure warehouse,
etcetera, etcetera, and somebodyrunning, SQL or whatever,
querying the you know, usingcode to query the data. And
today, you can just literallyask the question like a human.
So I think that's on theretention side. Like you can
(13:41):
truly better understand a largecon a large swath of of data and
say like, okay, what do I do?
On the CX side, I think to mypoint earlier, it's it's the
thing that works well isunderstanding as a business how
much you can feed to the AI godsand the the overlords and kind
of like understand, like, howmuch of this is actually I say
(14:03):
it's like low lift, easyquestion answers. How much of it
actually is? So being honestwith yourself, I think that's
worth for us at at Jones is wesaid, okay. Honestly, probably
40% is truly easy questions. Andfor other brands, it might be
90% depending on what you'reselling, what your customer
cohorts like, what your audiencecares about.
Right? So Jones, for example,you have, like, a good again,
(14:25):
for the sake of this example, Idon't I don't, I can't share the
exact numbers, but assume it's30% of people that are reaching
out are trying to get, like, ashade match, with a selfie they
sent in. That cannot yet be doneby AI. So you're already down to
only 70% is even in the in thein the total potential market
here. And then of the 70%, like,how many of them are related to
(14:48):
where's my order?
How many of them are related tobasic questions? And a lot of
those, like anything that'sreadily available from your
product page Mhmm. Through aconnection to your tracking
information, like all of that. Acustomer reaches out, they wanna
know where their order is. Theyjust want the tracking number.
They just wanna know where itis. You don't need a human
clicking buttons to do that. Ithink that's easily feasible.
(15:10):
And that's a good example of,like, better understanding what
percentage can actually be,quicker answer but accurate
answer. And then betterunderstanding, like, what
percentage need high touch andcan you actually say it's worth
the high touch because it'lldrive a better outcome.
Denise Venneri (15:26):
Yeah. So okay. Got it. That low hanging fruit
versus the other.
Eli Weiss (15:31):
Okay.
Denise Venneri (15:32):
We we touched on a little bit about me, of
course, that I'm familiar withconsumer product goods. And, you
know, when you think of classicconsumer affairs teams that I've
been around, you know, we, wehave supported what I'll call
incoming consumer comments froma variety of channels. So these
are the consumers decisions toreach out to the company.
(15:58):
Whereas, you know, what Iunderstand a little bit about
retention, a little bitdifferent retention, ultimately,
developing that customerrelationship should generate
some sales towards the end ofthis model, is is my
understanding there. And so myquestion is, how do you think
emails and SMS or text servesthese DTC brands?
(16:23):
You know, as it relates to someof these hypothetical things, I
think it's doing revenueretention, cross selling, things
like that.
Eli Weiss (16:31):
I I think the Denise, the framing of your question is
very important because I think,there's, like, a little a little
bit of a confusion aroundretention, the title and and the
connection to the action you'reactually taking. And I I think
that's something that's notaddressed often enough, which is
something I I wanna kind of,like, put a needle in is good
(16:51):
attention should be. Right?Like, it should be the idea that
you can help customers stickaround based on understanding
what they care about and makingsure they feel welcome to stick
around. But instead, it's turnedinto this extremely outbound,
very salesy, very kind of, like,pushy, non authentic weirdness
where you just send as manyemails as you need to in order
(17:13):
to solve, solve your quote,unquote problem, which is
driving more revenue.
So I think retention, whereas itshould have been this kind of,
like, soft, more of an art, itbecame more of a science, and it
became kind of, like, you canjust call it sales and outbound
sales, and it would kind of bethe same thing. Right? You're
sending emails and SMS to drivepeople to make more money, to
(17:34):
spend more money. So I thinkit's kind of a confusion there
and maybe maybe taking a wrongturn, as like, it's evolved in
the wrong way, in my opinion.Mhmm.
I think it should be softer. Ithink retention should be diving
deeper into the customer careaspect and better understanding,
like, what people love and hateabout your brand and leveraging
those is, like, organic easyways to get people to come back.
(17:56):
So I think that's a is, like,currently retention is very,
very sales driven, very kind of,like, dry and sciency way of
assuming a customer boughttwelve days ago, and we know
based on data that they shouldpurchase again at sixteen days,
send them three emails and fourtexts in those three, four days
to do whatever it takes to getthem to come back. Because if
(18:18):
not, who knows? They'll forgetabout us forever.
And I think that's, like, my hottake is that a lot of that is
driven by just, like, growthmarketing taking over the world
of e com and us just gettingreally, really excited about
spending money to make money asthe only kind of, like, short
term way, click a button, makethe money. And we've kind of,
(18:38):
like, failed. We lost thehumanity in this of, like,
people repurchase when they likethe product and they like your
experience, and it's on you tomake sure they like the product,
they like the experience. Andwe've chosen shortcuts over and
over and over. Right?
Like, we've chosen shortcuts ofjust drive them crazy enough and
hope that you kind of break theminto submission versus how do we
make sure we deliver just afantastic product and a journey.
(19:01):
And that's probably, I'm gonnaget off my high horse and stop
rambling, but that's somethingthat bothers me deeply.
Denise Venneri (19:08):
I appreciate you, your transparency and
sharing that. I do. I do. Again,with the details. So I'm
hearing, like, I'm hearing allthat.
And I'm just wondering is, canyou think of an example where,
you know, these channels use ofEMS, EMS, I just called it SMS
and emails where it wasimplemented and, implemented
(19:32):
appropriately.
Eli Weiss (19:35):
Yeah. I mean, I think the the two the two pieces here
are the brands that do thisquite well, number one, view
this as a holistic communicationstrategy. So it's not just one
person send as many emails asthey can and the other kind of
supplement it with a withadditional abuse from SMS angle.
I think that's, like, themistake. So I think brands that
(19:56):
do this well think holisticallyand think, like, what should be
an email versus, you know, whenpeople jump into a meeting and
they're they say that could havebeen an email.
So I think, like, a lot of thaton on marketing is also, like,
that should have been an email,not a text. Like, I don't need
to get a text every time youdecide you think it's time for
me to buy. So I think there's,like, understanding how text
(20:17):
marketing is just so much moreurgent and invasive than an
email because an email you kindof open when you're ready for
it. A text is a ding on yourphone. So I think that's number
one is, like, brands thatunderstand how these two
channels work one with anotherand understand, like, the larger
customer journey.
And number two, I'd say, like,when done well, brands deeply
(20:39):
understand just how to makethese sync together. So, yes,
understanding what should beemail and what should be SMS,
but understanding how they synctogether. So if I get an email
at this point in time, whatshould the SMS be that's
following it? So thinking of acustomer journey cohesively and
not, like, just channel. So,yes, understanding which channel
should be used and understandinghow they play well together.
(21:00):
Brands that do this well, Ithink, you know, not to toot my
own horn, but I do think theearly days of Olipop, we did
this very well by understandingthat in the days of SMS in 2019,
'20 '20
Denise Venneri (21:15):
Mhmm.
Eli Weiss (21:16):
People weren't interested in getting texts from
a soda company every two everytwo days or once a day. They
were interested in gettingreally kind of, like, intimate
messages that felt like theywere inside of a fast growing
company
Denise Venneri (21:28):
Mhmm.
Eli Weiss (21:28):
At the right time. So what we did was we leveraged,
like, the founder would take aselfie of him with a new flavor
launch and truly describe why heformulated this flavor. And I
think that that like, we soldmore of the new flavor via text
in the first few hours than wesold in, like, a week on email
(21:51):
just because people
Denise Venneri (21:52):
Mhmm.
Eli Weiss (21:52):
Were so invested in understanding the why behind the
product. Yeah. And SMS turns outas the channel to do that. So I
think, like, early days of andagain, like, as channels evolve,
I think strategies evolve. Andas brands evolve, I think the
way the brand talks to customersevolve.
But being intentional back thenwas was for us, like, the most
magical thing.
Denise Venneri (22:13):
You know, if folks wanted to find out more
about your company that you workat Yotpo or chat with you about
using these channels, what's thenext step they should take?
Eli Weiss (22:27):
That is a great question. So easiest way to find
out about Yotpo is y0tp0.com.Yotpo is like a retention
marketing platform that, youknow, has reviews and loyalty
and email and SMS, and is kindof trying to build this holistic
this tool that thinks aboutchannels holistically. So better
(22:47):
understanding the full customerjourney, not just a bunch of
little tools doing their ownthing in their own own corner.
Mhmm.
So that's an easy one. Myself,Eli Weiss, e l I w e I s s.
There's almost always an extra swhen it's any kind of, like,
links just because Eli Weiss istoo popular of a name. So, it's
Eli Weiss on LinkedIn, but EliWeiss with an on Twitter or Eli
(23:12):
Weiss with an extra s dot com,for the newsletter I write about
these things. But, other thanthat, I think that's all I've
that's all I've got as far aslinks.
Denise Venneri (23:23):
I think that's plenty. Fair. Yeah. Hey. Sadly,
we're at the end of our time,Eli, and I just wanna say thank
you so much for sharing youryour thoughts with us.
Eli Weiss (23:35):
Always a pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Doug Venneri (23:38):
You have been listening to the My Curious
Colleague podcast with DenisseVineri. Thank you for your time.
Welcome to the My Curious Colleague podcast
with me, Denise Venneri. I am atwenty year practitioner in the
consumer engagement space,having worked for two large CPG
organizations. My intent here isreally to share best practices
with particular focus around thespecialist and analyst roles and
(00:21):
to give back to this greatcommunity because CPGCX rocks.
Hello, my curious colleagues. This week,
I'm curious about consumer careand retention specifically in
the direct to consumer space andbeyond. And to help me
understand just that is mycolleague Eli Weiss, a retention
(00:44):
thought leader and VP ofretention advocacy at Yotpo.
Welcome to the podcast Eli.
Eli Weiss (00:52):
Thanks for having me. I'm excited about this
conversation.
Denise Venneri (00:55):
Same here. Same here. And the reason I wanted to
hear from you is, you know, Idon't think it's a prediction,
but it it is a belief that Ihave that all future CPG,
consumer finance, consumeraffairs functions, the one that
I've had my experience in, willeventually have some or full
responsibility to support TTCand online sales. Right? Like,
(01:21):
say, for example, you've got ahealth bar and it's you went
right into the retail market andgot great distribution.
And then for some strategicreason, you moved to DTC, you
know, and you're responsible forthat. Those sales there online,
but then also they launch awearable, for example. This is
really a crazy example. But thatwearable is not offered in
(01:44):
retail and only online. Soanyway, I I my my thinking is
eventually consumer affairs willhave to support.
So that's why I like to havethis sort of discussion with you
to understand that piece ofthings. So let's get back to you
and let's begin with you tellingus how you got to here.
Eli Weiss (02:06):
Yeah. I I appreciate you taking the time, to chat
with me. I think for most,careers are kind of a pre a pre
planned event with a little bitof maybe a detour, but I think
most people kind of decide whatthey wanna do when they're in
high school. They go to collegefor that. They finish college.
They start kind of decidingwhat's working, what isn't, and
slowly kind of morph theircareer to what they're
(02:28):
interested in. Mhmm. For me, itwas a little bit different. I
grew up number two of 10children in a very orthodox
Jewish world. So verynontraditional background.
Most of the people from mycommunity just kind of jumped
into whatever their family didor whatever their neighbor did
or kind of, like, chose to workat at a familiar company or
familiar space. For me, I had noidea what I wanted to do. I
(02:51):
didn't graduate high school,until I did my GED in my
twenties and go to college,traveled the world in my early
twenties. So saw, you know, abunch of Europe, 20 something
countries before I was, like,23. So really wasted a lot of my
time, just messing around andgot to a point where I needed I
needed some sort of a job.
(03:12):
And I jumped into ecomm,customer service because I
thought I understood whatcustomers wanted being a
difficult customer myself. Iwould kind of call these
companies and ask for something,and they'd kind of say, like,
we're sorry. There's nothing wecan do. And in the back of my
head, I'm like, I just wanna beheard and understood. And I
(03:32):
remember being like achronically difficult, like, 16
year old being, you know, kindagoing back and forth with
someone at some company.
And at some point, I said, like,you could have easily gotten me
off the call if you just tooksome sort of accountability and
responsibility and just said,like, we get it. We messed up.
We apologize. Truly, I wish Ican help, but there's nothing in
my power I can do. At least showme that you're personally
(03:54):
invested.
And I think for me, that waslike a really, really, felt like
a unique understanding and howeasy customer service can be if
you just took accountability.That led me to my first customer
service job in my earlytwenties, at a luggage brand,
super delayed on Kickstarter.Most of the customers wanted a
refund. The money wasn't quitethere to refund because they
spent it on development. And forme, it was just being brutally
(04:16):
honest and authentic about whathas been going on and taking
personal accountability justtransformed the business.
So that was really early, earlystart in CX. Again, like, very,
very different than the moreevolved parts of of, the
industry. I think CX was kind oflike retention. It was just
finding its footing in the lastten years in direct to consumer
(04:36):
brands Mhmm. Or the last twentyyears, especially, like you
said, direct to consumer versusmore retail forward, businesses
and kind of, like, having thatunique connection one to one
with customers is is nothundreds of years old.
It's tens. So I spent a bunch oftime there, got excited about
startups because it was, like,the only place I can kind of,
(04:56):
like, earn my way there withouthaving to prove anything other
than the fact that I was willingto do the work. Spent a bunch of
years just kind of doingcustomer service, and then
eventually kind of had abreakout role in Olipop. I was
there early days, number 16. Sawthat business go from 16 to 75
and kind of ballooned past thereover the last couple of years.
(05:18):
Eventually jumped into a beautybrand called Jones Road Beauty,
which was founded by BobbyBrown. So saw, like, a
bootstrapped celebrity ownedstartup. I was there for almost
two years. And then long storyshort, midlife crisis or quarter
life crisis into a into atechnology company, which is a
longer story for maybe adifferent time, but kind of the
(05:41):
evolution of customer service tocustomer experience, to building
a network around that, togetting excited about retention,
to getting excited aboutflipping onto the other side,
and better understanding how toservice the people that I spent
a decade plus working alongside.
Denise Venneri (05:57):
Wow. I'm exhausted. Just How do
Eli Weiss (06:00):
you think I feel?
Denise Venneri (06:01):
Just thinking about that those careers. But
what you depict to me is thisphrase I had heard last year,
this rock wall. Is it rock wall,Clammy? Yeah. Where instead of
just having, you know, going upthe proverbial career ladder
straight on up, breaking theglass ceiling for women,
etcetera.
It's more of like, differentsteps you take a little to the
(06:22):
right, a little to the left,eventually you reach your goal.
So that's pretty cool. And, andyou are a pretty savvy 16 year
old. I gotta I gotta tell youthat.
Eli Weiss (06:32):
What is it that they say about, like, necessity
breeding innovation? I think,you know, growing up in a very
large family in a very kind of,like, sheltered territory, you
know, like, we we didn't reallyhave access to TV. We weren't
widely available on theInternet. So I I think you just
you just become, like, you justyou just innovate because that's
all you have. For me, you know,growing up in a large family, I
(06:53):
was always I always just, as anykid does, you want new things,
you want things that yourparents can't necessarily, as
much money as they will everhave.
10 kids is just a lot. And youcome up with creative ways to
find the things you wanna do.And for me, that was like, you
know, my grandparents worked,they had a food distribution
company and I would kind of likefinagle some free kind of like
(07:15):
chocolate coated wafers from mygrandfather and then flip it up
cost price or full price. Solike there were innovative ways
where I where I made some moneyas a kid and then use that money
to try to buy things. Then I'dbuy things and I'd work six
months to be able to afford thispair of shoes I was excited
about.
And then I got it and two weekslater, it just, like, wasn't
great quality. And as a 16 yearold, you you kind of you're
(07:37):
like, what if I call them? Willthey help me? So yeah.
Denise Venneri (07:41):
Well, we're we are simpatico on one thing. One,
I am the second, but second offour children. But I believe
that that exact phrase thatpeople, you know, consumers just
wanna be heard. For sure. Forsure.
Let's let's keep on thisesoteric, I think, reflection
conversation here. And when Iasked you, could you help me,
(08:03):
you know, propose frame up areally juicy question, So I
don't always do, but you framedup this one. Where do you see
the battle between AI, yes,artificial intelligence, versus
humanity that's currently goingon, and where might you see it
in in the future?
Eli Weiss (08:21):
So I think the promise of AI, and I've been
like a fairly early user of,like, the the AI interface back
when it was, like, open sourcein the early days of of OpenAI.
And I I think the promise we wegot was this won't necessarily
take away jobs. It'll give youan opportunity to do more high
(08:41):
leverage tasks. And I think Ithink that was to some extent a
lie. Right?
Like, I think ChatGPT willultimately over time take away
jobs. And the question is, like,what happens after that, which
is not a discussion that thatI'm smart enough to to have on
this podcast. But I I think thatthe the promise we had was it'll
open up time for more highleverage tasks, and I just don't
(09:03):
see businesses doing that today.Right? So I think businesses
have chosen to either fullystaff a team with a hundred
humans, especially on CX.
Right? You either have a hundredhumans or entirely AI and not a
single person on the team. And II just think that's, like, a
fatal mistake for customerexperience as a whole. I think
the promise, we had shouldshould kind of you know, I think
(09:26):
as as any pendulum swings, we'llswing pretty strongly both ways,
but I think where we'll end upis is a highly leveraged human
team that helps, you know, like,what we have today with, like,
chat bots and elementary FAQdocs and kind of, like, running
in circles to try to get ananswer that you don't quite get.
I think AI on chat will getmuch, much better and resolve 70
(09:47):
to 80% of the problems.
And the other 20% of theproblems, you'll have, like, a
fully equipped, really high EQteam that'll kind of hand hold
you to get to the, you know,like, when when shit really hits
the fan, when you're reallyfrustrated and you've gone back
and forth with the executiveoffice on god knows what for god
knows how long, I think that'swhen you'll have really, really
(10:07):
high leverage, well paid, humansthat'll jump in and kind of
create order. And, again, like,the the back and forth on, like,
can AI be super empathetic?Maybe. Is that the world we
wanna live in where you talk torobots because they're more
empathetic than humans? I mean,not me.
Yikes. Right? Yikes. Yeah.That's that's my thoughts.
(10:28):
It's like, yikes. And I I dothink, yes, AI can respond like
a human, but I do think thehighly leveraged important
impactful moments for your topcustomers for when things really
break, you know, the servicerecover recovery paradox when
when things are really broken, II I truly think that's where
humans shine, and I thinkbusinesses are going way too far
to the left or or the right,whichever team you're on here.
Denise Venneri (10:50):
Yeah. What what I'm hearing is we're not yet
there on what it's gonna end up.I think there's there is going
to be this trial and error. Somesome error, excuse me, some
people probably haven't evendipped their toe in AI. But
seeing all this going on andwondering, I think is, is,
interesting taking up a lot ofour time, but we do love the
(11:14):
details here at, my curiouscolleague, Eli, and I'm
wondering if we can get into thedetails into some examples of
where maybe it's beenimplemented and an outcome that
you've seen?
Eli Weiss (11:28):
Yeah. I think Please. The the the quick wins that I've
seen, and I'll I'll give youboth on customer experience and
retention. I think from aretention point of view, there's
so much guesswork. And I thinkbrands look at email and look at
SMS and look at larger retentionchannels.
It's like, how do I continue toget to, like, statistically
significant outcomes that I canthen leverage to kind of do
(11:50):
phase two and phase three andkeep testing and keep iterating?
And I think what a lot of brandshave lost is the ability to, a,
deeply understand large swathsof information, and, b, kind of,
like, deduce potential nextsteps based on that information.
And I think that's one thingthat AI does really, really
well. So for example, if I'verun 27 different campaigns, here
(12:12):
are the data here here's kind oflike the outcomes of each and
every single one of these,whether it's the conversion,
whether it's the revenue perrecipient, whatever kind of
outcome you're looking for, andthen be able to kind of feed all
that information into an AIinfrastructure and decide, like,
okay. Here's what I've done sofar.
And kind of talking to the AIand say, keep me honest. Like,
is there anything I should havetested that I didn't? Is there
(12:36):
something I should kind of like,any any any outcome that you
think I should take from this?So I think that's, like,
something that I've seen workquite well is just feeding all
your information, to as simpleas, oh, as ChatGPT. I think the
the other kind of, like, theflip of that is leveraging a
tool, like, whether it's TripleWhale or, like, a lot of these
data analytics tools, you cankind of just connect to your
(12:56):
website, and you can just have,like, they they have that
chatbot that you can basicallyinstead of running code, to kind
of, like, query your data, youcan just treat it like it's a
human and ask questions directlylayered on top of your data.
So basically say like, hey,looking at the last three weeks,
which channel has been mostefficient for increasing
(13:19):
lifetime value or which cohortof customers has been the
strongest? And historically,you'd need multiple data
analysts and a datainfrastructure warehouse,
etcetera, etcetera, and somebodyrunning, SQL or whatever,
querying the you know, usingcode to query the data. And
today, you can just literallyask the question like a human.
So I think that's on theretention side. Like you can
(13:41):
truly better understand a largecon a large swath of of data and
say like, okay, what do I do?
On the CX side, I think to mypoint earlier, it's it's the
thing that works well isunderstanding as a business how
much you can feed to the AI godsand the the overlords and kind
of like understand, like, howmuch of this is actually I say
(14:03):
it's like low lift, easyquestion answers. How much of it
actually is? So being honestwith yourself, I think that's
worth for us at at Jones is wesaid, okay. Honestly, probably
40% is truly easy questions. Andfor other brands, it might be
90% depending on what you'reselling, what your customer
cohorts like, what your audiencecares about.
Right? So Jones, for example,you have, like, a good again,
(14:25):
for the sake of this example, Idon't I don't, I can't share the
exact numbers, but assume it's30% of people that are reaching
out are trying to get, like, ashade match, with a selfie they
sent in. That cannot yet be doneby AI. So you're already down to
only 70% is even in the in thein the total potential market
here. And then of the 70%, like,how many of them are related to
(14:48):
where's my order?
How many of them are related tobasic questions? And a lot of
those, like anything that'sreadily available from your
product page Mhmm. Through aconnection to your tracking
information, like all of that. Acustomer reaches out, they wanna
know where their order is. Theyjust want the tracking number.
They just wanna know where itis. You don't need a human
clicking buttons to do that. Ithink that's easily feasible.
(15:10):
And that's a good example of,like, better understanding what
percentage can actually be,quicker answer but accurate
answer. And then betterunderstanding, like, what
percentage need high touch andcan you actually say it's worth
the high touch because it'lldrive a better outcome.
Denise Venneri (15:26):
Yeah. So okay. Got it. That low hanging fruit
versus the other.
Eli Weiss (15:31):
Okay.
Denise Venneri (15:32):
We we touched on a little bit about me, of
course, that I'm familiar withconsumer product goods. And, you
know, when you think of classicconsumer affairs teams that I've
been around, you know, we, wehave supported what I'll call
incoming consumer comments froma variety of channels. So these
are the consumers decisions toreach out to the company.
(15:58):
Whereas, you know, what Iunderstand a little bit about
retention, a little bitdifferent retention, ultimately,
developing that customerrelationship should generate
some sales towards the end ofthis model, is is my
understanding there. And so myquestion is, how do you think
emails and SMS or text servesthese DTC brands?
(16:23):
You know, as it relates to someof these hypothetical things, I
think it's doing revenueretention, cross selling, things
like that.
Eli Weiss (16:31):
I I think the Denise, the framing of your question is
very important because I think,there's, like, a little a little
bit of a confusion aroundretention, the title and and the
connection to the action you'reactually taking. And I I think
that's something that's notaddressed often enough, which is
something I I wanna kind of,like, put a needle in is good
(16:51):
attention should be. Right?Like, it should be the idea that
you can help customers stickaround based on understanding
what they care about and makingsure they feel welcome to stick
around. But instead, it's turnedinto this extremely outbound,
very salesy, very kind of, like,pushy, non authentic weirdness
where you just send as manyemails as you need to in order
(17:13):
to solve, solve your quote,unquote problem, which is
driving more revenue.
So I think retention, whereas itshould have been this kind of,
like, soft, more of an art, itbecame more of a science, and it
became kind of, like, you canjust call it sales and outbound
sales, and it would kind of bethe same thing. Right? You're
sending emails and SMS to drivepeople to make more money, to
(17:34):
spend more money. So I thinkit's kind of a confusion there
and maybe maybe taking a wrongturn, as like, it's evolved in
the wrong way, in my opinion.Mhmm.
I think it should be softer. Ithink retention should be diving
deeper into the customer careaspect and better understanding,
like, what people love and hateabout your brand and leveraging
those is, like, organic easyways to get people to come back.
(17:56):
So I think that's a is, like,currently retention is very,
very sales driven, very kind of,like, dry and sciency way of
assuming a customer boughttwelve days ago, and we know
based on data that they shouldpurchase again at sixteen days,
send them three emails and fourtexts in those three, four days
to do whatever it takes to getthem to come back. Because if
(18:18):
not, who knows? They'll forgetabout us forever.
And I think that's, like, my hottake is that a lot of that is
driven by just, like, growthmarketing taking over the world
of e com and us just gettingreally, really excited about
spending money to make money asthe only kind of, like, short
term way, click a button, makethe money. And we've kind of,
(18:38):
like, failed. We lost thehumanity in this of, like,
people repurchase when they likethe product and they like your
experience, and it's on you tomake sure they like the product,
they like the experience. Andwe've chosen shortcuts over and
over and over. Right?
Like, we've chosen shortcuts ofjust drive them crazy enough and
hope that you kind of break theminto submission versus how do we
make sure we deliver just afantastic product and a journey.
(19:01):
And that's probably, I'm gonnaget off my high horse and stop
rambling, but that's somethingthat bothers me deeply.
Denise Venneri (19:08):
I appreciate you, your transparency and
sharing that. I do. I do. Again,with the details. So I'm
hearing, like, I'm hearing allthat.
And I'm just wondering is, canyou think of an example where,
you know, these channels use ofEMS, EMS, I just called it SMS
and emails where it wasimplemented and, implemented
(19:32):
appropriately.
Eli Weiss (19:35):
Yeah. I mean, I think the the two the two pieces here
are the brands that do thisquite well, number one, view
this as a holistic communicationstrategy. So it's not just one
person send as many emails asthey can and the other kind of
supplement it with a withadditional abuse from SMS angle.
I think that's, like, themistake. So I think brands that
(19:56):
do this well think holisticallyand think, like, what should be
an email versus, you know, whenpeople jump into a meeting and
they're they say that could havebeen an email.
So I think, like, a lot of thaton on marketing is also, like,
that should have been an email,not a text. Like, I don't need
to get a text every time youdecide you think it's time for
me to buy. So I think there's,like, understanding how text
(20:17):
marketing is just so much moreurgent and invasive than an
email because an email you kindof open when you're ready for
it. A text is a ding on yourphone. So I think that's number
one is, like, brands thatunderstand how these two
channels work one with anotherand understand, like, the larger
customer journey.
And number two, I'd say, like,when done well, brands deeply
(20:39):
understand just how to makethese sync together. So, yes,
understanding what should beemail and what should be SMS,
but understanding how they synctogether. So if I get an email
at this point in time, whatshould the SMS be that's
following it? So thinking of acustomer journey cohesively and
not, like, just channel. So,yes, understanding which channel
should be used and understandinghow they play well together.
(21:00):
Brands that do this well, Ithink, you know, not to toot my
own horn, but I do think theearly days of Olipop, we did
this very well by understandingthat in the days of SMS in 2019,
'20 '20
Denise Venneri (21:15):
Mhmm.
Eli Weiss (21:16):
People weren't interested in getting texts from
a soda company every two everytwo days or once a day. They
were interested in gettingreally kind of, like, intimate
messages that felt like theywere inside of a fast growing
company
Denise Venneri (21:28):
Mhmm.
Eli Weiss (21:28):
At the right time. So what we did was we leveraged,
like, the founder would take aselfie of him with a new flavor
launch and truly describe why heformulated this flavor. And I
think that that like, we soldmore of the new flavor via text
in the first few hours than wesold in, like, a week on email
(21:51):
just because people
Denise Venneri (21:52):
Mhmm.
Eli Weiss (21:52):
Were so invested in understanding the why behind the
product. Yeah. And SMS turns outas the channel to do that. So I
think, like, early days of andagain, like, as channels evolve,
I think strategies evolve. Andas brands evolve, I think the
way the brand talks to customersevolve.
But being intentional back thenwas was for us, like, the most
magical thing.
Denise Venneri (22:13):
You know, if folks wanted to find out more
about your company that you workat Yotpo or chat with you about
using these channels, what's thenext step they should take?
Eli Weiss (22:27):
That is a great question. So easiest way to find
out about Yotpo is y0tp0.com.Yotpo is like a retention
marketing platform that, youknow, has reviews and loyalty
and email and SMS, and is kindof trying to build this holistic
this tool that thinks aboutchannels holistically. So better
(22:47):
understanding the full customerjourney, not just a bunch of
little tools doing their ownthing in their own own corner.
Mhmm.
So that's an easy one. Myself,Eli Weiss, e l I w e I s s.
There's almost always an extra swhen it's any kind of, like,
links just because Eli Weiss istoo popular of a name. So, it's
Eli Weiss on LinkedIn, but EliWeiss with an on Twitter or Eli
(23:12):
Weiss with an extra s dot com,for the newsletter I write about
these things. But, other thanthat, I think that's all I've
that's all I've got as far aslinks.
Denise Venneri (23:23):
I think that's plenty. Fair. Yeah. Hey. Sadly,
we're at the end of our time,Eli, and I just wanna say thank
you so much for sharing youryour thoughts with us.
Eli Weiss (23:35):
Always a pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Doug Venneri (23:38):
You have been listening to the My Curious
Colleague podcast with DenisseVineri. Thank you for your time.
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