Going A Little Outlaw: How Dr. Katie Burden-Greer Built Her DPC On The Creek Nation Indian Reservation

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Maryal Concepcion (00:04):
Direct Primary care is an innovative
alternative path toinsurance-driven healthcare.
Typically, a patient pays theirdoctor a low monthly membership
and in return builds a lastingrelationship with their doctor
and has their doctor availableat their fingertips.
Welcome to the My DPC Storypodcast, where each week you

(00:26):
will hear the ever so relatablestories shared by physicians who
have chosen to practice medicinein their individual communities
through the direct primary caremodel.
I'm your host, MarielleConception.
Family, physician, DPC, owner,and former fee for service.
Doctor, I hope you enjoy today'sepisode and come away feeling
inspired about the future ofpatient care direct primary

(00:49):
care.
DPC to me is being able toconnect directly with patients
and having a relationship withmy patients and them having a
doctor they know they can counton.
I'm Dr.
Bergen Greer and this is my DPCstore.
Before we dive in, I wanted toshare that this episode was
recorded on location, about anhour and a half outside Oklahoma

(01:11):
City at the home and clinic ofDr.
Katie Burden, Greer.
today's guest, she graciouslywelcomed me out to her 140 acre
property, gave me a tour,introduced me to her dogs,
horses, and cows, and even fedher bison a little extra so I
could grab some video to sharewith my sons.
It was an incredible experienceand truly gave me a glimpse into
the heart behind her work.

(01:31):
Now a little bit more about Dr.
Bird Greer,
Dr.
Katie Birdin Greer, founder ofOutlaw Medical, grew up in rural
Oklahoma where she witnessedfirsthand the gaps in the
healthcare system, specificallythe Indian Health Services
Healthcare System or IHS.
And rather than accept thestatus quo, she went a little

(01:52):
outlaw and launched her owndirect primary care practice.
Dr.
Birdin Greer is double boardcertified in family medicine and
obesity medicine, a graduate ofEast Central University and the
University of Oklahoma.
Boomer Sooner and completed herresidency at the prestigious
Mayo Clinic.
She's led through crises aschief of inpatient medicine at
Chickasaw Nation during theheight of COVID-19, and

(02:13):
continues to fight for bettercare in every setting.
She touches outside the clinic.
She's Dr.
Aunt KK to a big crew of niecesand nephews.
She and her husband also have anadventurous spirit and they
enjoy being outdoors, gardening,forestry, traveling, scuba
diving, and taking care of theircattle and bison.
Ranch.
ah, It's nice in the shade.
Yeah.
It's awesome.

(02:34):
So this is, this is a, today'sinterview is, is very different.
It's very unique.
I'm super excited.
Dr.
Bird Greer had met me and I mether at, in Dallas last year, and
it was it totally stuck in mymind this whole time that she
said, yeah, I'm, I'm openingOutlaw Medical is my practice
and I'm in Oklahoma on theMuskogee reservation or the

(02:59):
creek.
Nation reservation.
And I just think that in such atime that we are in, in
healthcare where there's so muchthere's so much unhappiness with
the system.
Historically there's been somuch happiness in the Indian
Health Services system.
So before we go there though, Ijust wanted to say that really

(03:20):
just to put a geographiclocation and like a just paint a
picture in, in the listener'shead, but tell us about your
even choosing to go intomedicine because you grew up in
Oklahoma and you are.
Still in Oklahoma and came backafter you went to Florida for
school.
But what, when along yourjourney in life did you say, I

(03:42):
wanna be doctor, I wanna be aphysician doing family medicine?
Yeah.
It's

Dr. Katie Burden-Greer (03:47):
kind of a unique story'cause my mom was
an LPN and she worked at the ERin Oakmulgee, which is, the
capital of Muskogee CreekNation.
And she worked there and she'dcome home telling me stories and
I just ate it up.
And I always had an aptitude forscience, so I kind of decided at
a pretty young age that I wantedto be a doctor.

(04:08):
Plus I was kind of sick as akid.
Like I would get asthma attacks.
Mm-hmm.
Get pneumonia.
And I would be in the CreekNation health system as a
patient and I'd be like, okay, Iwanna do this.
I wanna take care of people, you

know?
Yeah.
And so.
The assumption there, because Ididn't actually ask you this
before we started talking.
Your heritage is you areMuskogee Creek Nation heritage.
I don't even know how you wouldsay that.
How Yes.
Is your bloodline of theMuskogee Creek Nation?

Yes.
Yeah.
Yes, I am mostly Muskogee Creek.
I am also part Cherokee, partUcci.
And then I like to tell peopleI'm a quarter white, but I can't
prove it.
That's

awesome.
My mom says I'm aqua like this,this I don't know, one, 100th or
whatever, like fractionCherokee.
I can't prove that.
Yeah.
So love it.
That's that's the go-to.
Yeah.
Love it.
It's like I am, but I can'tprove it.
So when you, when you, as youmentioned, your own health
history.
How easy was it for you to getto, to be seen?
Because, you, you had a littleleg up in compared to other

(05:11):
people.
You had somebody in healthcarein your family.
Mm-hmm.
But what, what was it like ifyou were like, my asthma's not
controlled.
Mm-hmm.
I do need to be seen.
What was your access likegrowing

up?
That's the thing.
It was even with, quote unquotefree healthcare for the tribe,
the access was so limited.
I mean, I can remember going tothe ER a lot as a kid because
it's not like you can just makean appointment with your doctor
or text your doctor or call yourdoctor.
So it was very limited.
I mean, there's just way morepatients than there are doctors

(05:43):
in the system.

Mm-hmm.
And when you, as you weregrowing up, how far
geographically did you live toeither a doctor or one of the
acute care centers?
'cause it's my understandingthat before a few years ago,
there were two acute care accesshospitals.
Mm-hmm.
Wouldn't necessarily take careof unstable patients, but for

(06:04):
someone who's having a stablebut needing to be controlled
asthma attack, I would assumethat that would be an
appropriate place to go to.

Right.
There was a small communityhospital in Okah, Oklahoma,
which you probably drove past onyour way here.
And that is where we would gofor er visits, doctor visits.
Mm-hmm.
It's about 20, 25 minutes away.
20 ish from where you grew up?
Yes.
Yeah.
I actually grew up here.
Oh,

not on this exact land, but yes, in
willka.
Wow, okay.
So that's that's, and I likewhat would, what's the worst it
got when it comes to like snowand conditions?
Because it is a it's, it'spaved, up until here, even to
the door of your property.
But I, I just think about livingin Omaha that sometimes.

(06:50):
A 25 minute drive was not a 25minute drive if there was a lot
of bad weather.
Oh, right.
Like

when there's bad weather, I mean, you
just stay home.

Yeah.

Our system is just not built for
snow and ice and usually I feellike maybe twice a year we get a
bad snow storm or ice storm andeverybody just stays home.
Yeah.

So I I, I am just like thinking in my head
that that is probably one ofthe, the things that people have
most likely found so amazingabout your care now as a DPC
doctor.
So I, I think about your goingoff to Florida for training and
then you making your way back toOklahoma.

(07:28):
Mm-hmm.
Did you ever think about notcoming back home or did you
always intentionally train sothat you could come back home
and take care of the people yougrew up in and around?
This community and,

When you're a teenager you think
about running away and nevercoming home.
But once, my head was inreality.
Yeah.
It, the, all the plan was alwaysto come back and work for my own
tribe.
Yeah.
My goal was to work for CreteNation, actually.
Sure.
My whole life.
Yeah.
And so I went to East Central, asmall college in Ada, Oklahoma,
and then OU for medical school,and then Jacksonville, Florida

(08:02):
at Mayo Clinic for residencyand.
I real it, living in the biggercities made me realize how much
I am not a city person.
Sure.
I really needed my space again.
Yeah.
I needed land and I knew it wasgonna be rural Oklahoma.
'cause I wanted to work,specifically for my tribe.
But I was open to working forother tribes.
Yeah.
So, it was always gonna be backin Oklahoma as soon as I decided

(08:24):
I wasn't a city person.
Sure.
When

you, had that self-discovery and you then
came back here I, I wanna askabout your preparation for
coming back here in how youeither crafted your rotations or
how you intentionally went aboutlearning and residency.
I just spoke with medicalstudents who were like, very

(08:46):
much interested in the DPCmodel, but were wondering about
oh.
But if the system only teachesyou one way of doing things
mm-hmm.
Fee for service way, how do youtrain enough to be able to be a
DPC doctor to be confident to beserving patients without.
Being in that system.
So how, how did you address,your future coming back here and

(09:07):
like you, you mentioned eventhinking initially that you
wanted to work for the CreekNation itself.
How did you, how did you craftyour, your experience in
especially residency?

I would say for me, I was in such a good
program that really taught awide scope of family medicine
more so than average.
Because Mayo Clinic, they wanttheir specialists to only see
the really weird Yeah.
Hard to treat stuff.
So with, in family medicine, wewere seeing everything.
Yeah.
We were taking care of all thestuff that maybe other places

(09:38):
would refer out to a specialist.
Mm-hmm.
But for us it was like, oh yeah.
Type one diabetic on a pump.
No, they're not going toendocrinology.
Yeah.
Like, we're taking care of that.

It's wonderful that you had that
experience.
so Here I wanna ask about yourthought then about wanting
initially to work for the CreekNation or, or anywhere.
Mm-hmm.
In terms of, I'm assuming IndianHealth Services.
Yes.
When you say that, when you werein your third year residency,
getting all this amazingtraining and not necessarily
worrying about could I be adoctor in, in any system?

(10:10):
Mm-hmm.
What were the thoughts aboutwhat were, what was the decision
tree like when you were thinkingIndian Health Services versus
anything else?
Were you even thinking ofanything else?

There really wasn't even a versus for
me.
Yeah.
Like I knew I wanted to doIndian Health Service.
Yeah.
I wanted to do tribal healthcareand.
I had toyed with the idea ofopening my own clinic mm-hmm.
Within the Creek Nationboundaries and maybe partnering
with, the tribe to try to fundit.
But the legalities and the redtape and the funding and the
Medicare reimbursements and allthe things that were just so

(10:43):
against that plan I just knew Iwanted to work for IHS.

Yeah.
And it's interesting because forthe listeners, something that I
learned literally driving hereto your, to you, your, your
property and, and your, the townwhere your clinic is in I did
not realize that one, if a, if atribe and nation is recognized
federally mm-hmm.
That's one.
And then two a tribe can chooseto either take a grant from the

(11:08):
Federal sur the federal moneythat funds IHS or IHS can give
money as a grant to a tribe todo with, with.
To do with it what they want.
Mm-hmm.
So the Creek Nation inparticular definitely has
participation in IHS.
There's not a necessarily, not aseparate grant that is funding
the access points in, in thisarea, in this, in this, on this

(11:31):
reservation land.
But when you were in your thirdyear, were you having IHS people
like talk to you to try to

recruit

you?

Dr. Katie Burden (11:41):
Unfortunately, no.
I actually had to chase down theIHS recruiters and the tribal
recruiters and say, Hey, I wannacome work for you.
I wanna come work for you.
Give me an interview.

Yeah.

So I mean, the recruiting budget is I
think, very underfunded.
So nobody reached out to me atall.
Like I had to reach out to eachindividual tribe and IHS
facility that I was interestedin.

And I ask this just because some tribal
nations are doing this wherelike there's a, a ear, nose and
throat surgeon who had come tothe, one of the newest
healthcare centers through IHSat, what was the cancer
treatment center in Tulsa?
Yes.
Council, which became Yes.
Which became Council Oak.
I was hearing about, there is anENT surgeon who was put through

(12:23):
medical school by, and I don'tknow if it was this nation or a
different nation, but medicalschool was funded.
Mm-hmm.
Was any of your education

funded by the tribe?
Yes.
I applied for and got the IHSscholarship while I was still in
college.
And so that completely coveredmy tuition.
I still had to pay for, likebooks, living expenses but my
loans are, were massively, I saywere,'cause I've gotten paid off
now were so much lower than.
A lot of my colleagues that cameout with 300,$500,000 in debt.

(12:54):
Yeah.
I was like, a hundred thousand.

And it just wonderful.
I'm Congratulations on that,that you got the scholarship,
but also it's just it makes youwanna bang my head against the
window because you're, you arean ih a scholarship recipient.
Mm-hmm.
There's not too many people, I'massuming, who take that and go
to become a physician.
Mm-hmm.
And then the fact that youdidn't even have a recruiter,
even with the limited resources.
To me, it's just, that'sackwards.

(13:17):
Yes it is.
And oh my goodness.
And so, if, if there is alistener out there who is also
an IHS scholarship recipientwho's going to doctor school,
like definitely listen into thisinterview because this is,
that's crazy.
When it comes to you reachingout saying, Hey, I wanna work
for you.
Why didn't you continue downthat pathway of becoming.

(13:38):
Like to this day still employedwith IHS.

So for me, I started out working for my
own tribe.
I was happy as a clam.
I was doing covering ourcritical access hospital with, a
handful of patients a daycovering the clinic.
And then on my days off, whichwere Friday, Saturday, Sunday, I
would usually pick up er shiftsat the same hospital.
Yeah.
And I very much enjoyed it.
What got me was the tribe gotinto a financial crisis, I guess

(14:02):
you would say, and one of theway the administrators decided
that they needed to make moremoney was they started having
patients come in at smaller andsmaller time intervals.
I actually took a picture of myschedule one time when I had a
five minute appointment slot fora patient with multiple
comorbidities.
Oh.
I couldn't even filled hermedicines in five minutes.
Yeah.

I just, I think that this is where, as I
was hearing the transition fromwhen Council Oak was created.
The, the the, the way that theadministrator was speaking
about, oh, the innovation, theaccessibility, the
affordability, all of thesethings.
I, I kept thinking that it isstill an admin run system.

(14:45):
It is, even though it is not thetraditional BUCA plan system.
Mm-hmm.
It is still not direct primarycare.
And we've been talking veryrecently on the podcast, Dr.
Stephanie Huon, who's inMissouri, in Raleigh, Missouri
rural town.
Just like yours was talkingabout how when it comes to what
is value-based care and what isnot this is where there's a

(15:09):
distinction.
What is system-based care andwhat is not system-based care
and how does that differ is alittle bit easier.
But for you, I mean, it's, thatis, it doesn't matter where you
are practicing that.
Yeah.
But then we're gonna, the, thethe quality of care, the, just
the obnoxiousness of somebodytelling you who's not a

(15:30):
physician, that you have fiveminutes on your schedule for
this one person with, like yousaid, chronic comorbidities.
What did your mind start doingthen with the, the knowledge
that this isn't tenable for youto be able to practice like you
need to?

Right.
I'd say like the straw thatreally broke my back was.
Like I mentioned, I was coveringthe hospitalized patients as
well as the clinic patients.
I had an hour blocked in themorning to see my hospitalized
patients and I was expected tofollow up through the day with
no shows.
If I had a nohow, that's when Igo back and check on the
hospital.
So, well, what if I don't have ano-show or what if I have, 20
patients in an hour?
I mean, it's just not possible.

(16:05):
So I was doing the best I could.
I had a patient with a UTIchecked her white count looking
better, went and talked to her,feel better.
Great.
Awesome.
Go home.
Went and saw all my clinicpatients.
I was staying there late.
I was there till probably aboutnine o'clock.
Just checking charts, makingsure I didn't miss anything.
'cause you're gonna misssomething when you're having to
rush through.
I missed her hemoglobin was 6.9.
Oh geez.
Called her back, got hertransfused, got her taken care

(16:26):
of.
Luckily nothing happened.
But I mean, she could have hadan MS.
Stemi, she could have had aheart attack from that.

Yeah, totally.

And I was like, I can't keep being a
part of this.
Yeah.
So that's when I started lookinginto other options and started
applying at other places.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And still within the nation orstill within IHS?
Within IHS, yes.
Okay.
So, when you have the IHSscholarship and you pay for four
years of medical school with thescholarship, you're expected to
work for four years for IHS ortribal facility.

(16:51):
Got it.
So I was only two and a halfyears in, so I knew I had to
work for another tribal facilityor IHS facility.
Yeah.
So I applied, with the ChickasawNation, with the Cherokee
Nation, I was looking at IHSfunded and Woca which is
primarily Seminole, but they'remore IHS funded than tribal
funded.
So I looked at all those and thebest fit for me was back in Ada,

(17:12):
where I went to college iswhere.
The Chickasaw Nation has ahospital and they had a
hospitalist position open and Iapplied and I really liked their
model.
They were very patient centered,patient forward, so many
hospitalist positions make yousee 20 plus a day.
Their average was 12 or less.
Wow.
So that you could actually spendtime with people Yeah.

(17:34):
And explain things.
So I really liked that.
So that's when I went there inthe very end of 2016.

Got it.
And were you also doing, wereyou also having to do outpatient
as well as inpatient somewhere?
No.
Okay.
That

was a strictly hospitalist position
with Open ICU.
Got it.
Got it.
And

I wonder knowing that you had to at least
commit four years to servingNIHS, when you were looking to
transition away from oa, did youask questions in particular of
the different locations that youwere you, that you were looking
at with administrators ordoctors or staff?
I really wanna know, know whatyou're, what I'm getting into.

(18:12):
Because of my experience inChea,

I found the best question for me to ask
was, when did the last positionleave and why?

Yeah.

That's usually a good tell.
And with Chickasaw Nation, thelast person to leave that type
of position left because theyhad advanced cancer and they had
been there for decades.
Yeah.
It

speaks, it speaks highly to the
importance of that question.
Mm-hmm.
I think it's, it's a very goodquestion for any, any person
who's looking at a, an employedposition.
Mm-hmm.
So.
What was that like because 2016,how long did you stay there?
Because you have eventuallybecame the chief of inpatient
medicine during the lovelypandemic era.

Yes.
So I absolutely loved the weekon, week off schedule.
They were long grueling days.
12 hour in-house shift is rough.

Yeah.

Plus the, two and a half hour round
trip driving down there andback.
'cause I was dead set on stayingin my own bed.
Sure.
And staying with my husband whohad previously been in the Navy
and deployed and we were sick ofbeing apart.
So I was like, no, no, no, we'reliving together.
So the biggest thing for me waswhenever I became more involved

(19:21):
in administration at the veryend of 2019, right before the
pandemic hit is.
It was a lot of work.
I mean, there was one week Iworked 114 hours.
Geez, Louis.
Yeah.
That was right at the beginning,end of March, 2020.
Yeah.
Right.
When all this was really hidden.
Yeah.
And and I felt like I was doingso good.
I was like, wow, I feel like I'mmaking a difference in admin
because I came into admin whenit was really important,

(19:44):
decisions were being made.
Like I was able to set up a teleICU, whereas before we were just
family medicine.
I say just family medicine andinternal medicine.
Managing the ICU patients,previously if they were
intubated more than a coupledays, they'd be transferred.
That was not an option duringcovid anymore.
So we were figuring out how todo paralytic drips, prone high
settings on ventilators.
So luckily I was able to set upthat backup with an actual

(20:07):
critical care trained group to.
See what we were doing with ourpatients and advise us if we
need to change this, that, orthe other thing.
Wow.

And that was via the, your telemedicine
stuff?
Yes.
Yeah.
That's fantastic.
I just, in rural Nebraska, wehad the, the third time I went
back there as a resident, therewas a, a camera for a trauma
surgeon or trauma doctorsmm-hmm.
To be able to quote unquote zoominto the room.
Mm-hmm.
To help in the role accesshospital that is Broadstone
Memorial.
Mm-hmm.
So I totally get the, theimportance of that going through

(20:37):
the hell that was the pandemicfor those people, especially who
were in the hospital at thattime.
When did you then even thinkabout Hey, one, clearly you just
had to survive and get throughyour stuff.
Mm-hmm.
But two, at what point did youthen say, I need an even
different model of practicing.

(20:59):
I've done chea, I've done this.
ICU, I'm, I'm head here.
I'm involved in admin, but it isstill not what I wish to do in
the

future.
So a few different reasons.
Number one, I'll say I cannotimagine working in the hospital
with a better administration orbetter colleagues.
I mean, we had the absolute bestdoctors, respiratory therapists,
nurses, awesome.
It was amazing.
It was like the worst hell thatI would never want to go through
again, but if I ever did, itwould be with them.

(21:28):
So number one, I absolutelyloved him.
It was kind of, it was reallyhard to think about leaving, but
my heart was never in hospitalmedicine.
Yeah.
I wanted the relationships ofprimary care.
So, once Covid calmed down andwhen admin became more tedious
than what I felt was likeimmediately helpful the way it
was during Covid, I I startedgetting antsy.

(21:48):
I missed my primary carerelationships I had with
patient.
Oh my God, it was so hard toleave Che when I left primary
care there.
I mean, I had so many patientsthat really, liked that I would
spend the extra time and listento them, even though that would
put me behind and I'd get introuble.
But, it was what needed to bedone.
And then, I mean, I had anotherpatient too because, being rural

(22:09):
Oklahoma, not so many people oropen-minded.
I had a patient, she would flyall the way out here from
Arizona.
She was native and couldn't findanyone to give her healthcare.
She was trans couldn't findanyone to give her hormone
therapy, anything.
And I was like, absolutely, I'lltake care of you.
I mean, people are people like,why do you have to be mean?
Yeah.
And this was, in 2014, 15, thiswas before, it became a little

(22:32):
bit more.
Common for people to be open tothat.
Totally.
So I was the only doctor seeingtrans patients there.
In my little town of Oke.
I think I had four.

Oh my gosh.
It just, I, I shake my headbecause, and then you look at
today in 2025 where, there's, Iread a meme yesterday, there's
more people with measles andpeople who are playing trans
sports, and it's really?
What are we going to, have a fitabout?
We're going back

in time.

Yeah.
So, yeah.
I, I completely am in the sameboat.
People are people.
We went to human, human doctorschool.
Yeah.
Don't ask me to take care of azebra, but ask me to take care
of a human does not matter.
Yes.
Period.
So I am amen to that.
People are people.
Yes.
So I love this focus on people.

(23:13):
Mm-hmm.
Being a people doctor, rewanting to refocus and resume in
on relationship-based medicine.
Mm-hmm.
Why direct primary care and notgoing back to another IHS clinic
in a different, like a one witha similar administration or an
outpatient clinic where maybethe doctors just don't leave
because they like it versuscoming back here to Ika and

(23:35):
opening your own DPC.

Yeah.
A little wild kind of crazy togo that direction.
Some people might think I'minsane, but the biggest thing
is, I learned a lot aboutleadership and administration
and my role at Chickasaw Nationand I figured if I am able to
help navigate the hospitalthrough a COVID pandemic, I

(23:58):
could probably start a monthlymembership, primary care clinic.
And worst case scenario, Ialways think worst case
scenario, that's where my er ICUbrain goes.
Worst case scenario, I do goback to work for somebody.
Sure.
I mean, it's not the end of theworld.
Like at least I can say I tried.
So, and honestly I was.
50 50 on whether it would workor not.
Yeah.
And I just felt like I had totake the leap.

(24:20):
So I set myself a goal ofgetting around, maybe 80
members, 80 membership patientsat one year.
So February was one year, sowe're now 14 months and I'm at
142 patients deal.
I know, it's insane.
My gosh.
I mean,'cause I'm reallystarting from scratch.
Yeah.
I didn't have a primary carepanel that I took with me.

(24:40):
I was being a hospitalist for,seven years.
Closer to eight, I guess.

Well, and you have, you are in a place
where there's supposed to behealthcare mm-hmm.
That is provided.
And even your decades agogrowing up.
Dr.
Re is not old, but she is atleast multiple decades.
That could be three decades.
Just said 40.
We can put it out there

just

last month.
Love it.
You're supposed to have theresponsibility of the, the, the
agreements, the treaties aresupposed to be ending in people
who have been discriminatedagainst.
There's so much history therethat is a completely separate
podcast robbed of its lands.

(25:22):
People just, I mean, this is,this is so, there's so much
maddening history when it comesto the native people of what we
call the United States ofAmerica and how rights and other
things have been taken fromNative Nations.
When you think about though,this idea of the IHS is supposed

(25:44):
to be providing healthcare andnot just insurance to people in
tribal nations.
You still have people who arepaying you to be their doctor,
where again, you cannot, youcannot go into IHS and have your
personal doctor, Dr.
Burden Greer is a person'sphysical real doctor.

(26:05):
But why do people pay you, whydo people find value in Outlaw
Medical?
Because they, they're supposedto have healthcare covered just
like Medi-Cal recipients.
And Medi and Medi Medicarerecipients are supposed to have
healthcare.
Mm-hmm.
And I'm making all these quotes,air quotations, like physically
picture me frustrated and makingthese air quotes with my fingers

(26:25):
as I'm asking her this.

Yeah.
That is one thing that actuallyI was a little bit worried about
opening a DPC clinic in my area.
'cause my area is about 21%native.
That means 21% of people can goto one of the tribal facilities
and get their healthcare.
On top of that we have Medicaidand other things where people
will get quote, unquote freehealthcare.
But when I opened, one of thethings that I knew from my own

(26:50):
experience is getting in to getestablished with a primary care
four to six months is prettystandard weight.
And to see a doctor, maybelonger because they have a big
supply of nurse practitionersand PAs, but not so much on the
doctor side of things.
So people that wanted physiciancare, people that wanted access

(27:13):
greater, sooner than every sixmonths.
If you wanna get in for a sameday appointment.
Almost always you're told to goto the er.
Yeah.
Versus, I had a patient actuallythis morning, I haven't
mentioned to you yet.
I had a patient come to me, Isaw her yesterday.
She clearly has a pilo, a kidneyinfection.
So she called this morningsaying she was in a lot of pain,
or her husband did.

(27:34):
And I'm like, Hey, gimme 15minutes to put on clothes.
I'll meet you at the clinic andwe'll do a Toradol shot.
That's usually the best forkidney pain.
And if you're not better afterthat, we will figure out what to
do next.
So, I mean, I did that a couplehours before you got here.
Wow.
Wow.
And that's just animpossibility.
Yeah.
With in the system.
Totally.
100%

you're going to the er.
Yeah.
And.
Just as a side question there,what is the weight in the er?
Once you get there,

it's hit or miss.
If you go at a time wherethey're not too busy, you might
get in pretty quick.
If you go at a time that a lotof people, kids get outta school
on a weekday and everybody'scoming in with their colds and
flu and covid, then it might be,several hours.
Yeah.
So you're talking about thedrive to the hospital?
Yeah.
'cause nobody lives next to thehospital and then you're talking
about the weight and then you'retalking about being seen mm-hmm.

(28:21):
Testing, getting out of there.
Your, your whole day is the er.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Versus,

calling you less, less than 30 minutes
with this patient.
It's amazing.
And right now, your patientswho've seen you again, I'm so
excited that you have so manywhat is their geographic span?
Do you still have patientsflying from Arizona to see you?
Because I, I, I think about howin my fee for service practice,
even people would drive an hourand a half to see us.

(28:48):
Mm-hmm.
But what is it like for you?
In the, in terms of thegeographic footprint of your
patients?

I'd say the vast majority are within a
45 minute drive.
And for Oklahoma, that's notvery far.
Yeah.
For reference from where we'reat right now, it's an hour and a
half to Oklahoma City.
It's an hour and a half toTulsa.

Mm-hmm.

So a 45 minute drive, from Seminole or
Holdenville or some of theseother towns that are, nearby but
still rural they'll drive to seeme or we'll do virtual visits.
Sure.
That's the majority.
I do have some patients inEdmond, which is north of
Oklahoma City.
Mm-hmm.
Norman, the Tulsa area that wedo most of our visits virtual,
they see us, see me in personwhen they need to.

(29:27):
Yeah.
But otherwise, we handle mostthings virtually.
And

do you physically go to different
locations in Oklahoma once in awhile to, to meet patients where
they're at?
Or do you even if it's homevisits or do you.
Just see them once in a whilebecause they're coming here to
Wika.

I just see them in person in Wika.
Mm-hmm.
I don't have any other locationsthat I travel to.
Got it.
Got it.

So I think about Willka having around
800 people here.
Mm-hmm.
And then people are drivingtypically 45 minutes as the, the
longest to see you.
I, I just think that that'sstill not thousands and
thousands of people.
Mm-hmm.
And yet you have over 120 peoplemm-hmm.
Who are choosing to see you.
I mean, this is where I, I thinkabout Phil, Esq, jd, NBA Do who

(30:13):
has said, DPC can happenanywhere.
Mm-hmm.
And you are absolutely provingthat.
That's why I'm so honored to beout here.
I'm so excited to have yourwords be shared, amongst the,
the airwaves.
On the airwaves.
Because for those people who arehesitating for whatever reason,
it's like you are definitelyproviding a, a so unique and

(30:34):
hopefully not unique example inthe future, right.
As more people do this.
But I wonder about I wonderabout the, the things that you
are seeing not only in peoplewho are not of.
The creek nation, but who arealso just in rural America
mm-hmm.
In rural Oklahoma.
What are the, what are themedical issues, especially like

(30:56):
when it comes to chronic diseasethat you are seeing and how are
they different if a person is ofa tribal nation?

So, native populations tend to have
higher rates of diabetes.
And most people know that, butmost people don't know.
Native populations have a muchhigher rate of autoimmune
disease.
Wow.
Which I find very interesting,and that's one of the things
that kind of got me interestedin medicine as my mom has.
Mm-hmm.
A lot of autoimmune issues,rheumatoid lupus, things like
that.

(31:22):
So I had kind of a specialinterest in those things.
Yeah.
And I mean, I would say lastweek I diagnosed a new patient
with lupus because she had beenthrough the system, given, 15
minute appointments in and out,never had the hour long
appointment that she and I hadtalking about everything in
detail.
And I'm like, you're checkingall the boxes of lupus.
And she even described abutterfly rash.
I'm like, okay.

(31:42):
Well.
I think this is what's going on.
Let's get you checked out beforewe go down these other routes.
Yeah.
And that's what it was.
Wow.

And when it comes to, I I, I go back to
this transition period that theCreek Nation in particular had
to, to opening, this, this brandnew facility where one of the
things that they touted waswe're gonna have amazing mental
healthcare, behavioralhealthcare access.
We're gonna do work in thecommunity to not make mental

(32:09):
health addiction alcoholsubstance use disorder a stigma.
Mm-hmm.
Do you think that that haschanged within the nation in
particular when, when they aresupposedly having access to more
healthcare options?

I'm not working within the tribe
anymore, but I have seen thatthey are doing more to try to
make access happen.
So I do think they're makinggreat strides.
I mean, it's been.
Almost a decade since I'veworked for the tribe.
Yeah.
And from what I've seen, it's amuch better administration.
It's much better as far as whattheir goals are.
Sure.
Putting patients first.

(32:45):
And so I think lots of stridesare being made, but it's, it's,
it's never enough.

Yeah, totally.
And but that, that is good, thatthere's a positive change there.
That's really great.
When it comes to your typicalday, because you live an hour,
an hour, you live a mile and ahalf from your clinic.
That's just like me oh, I gottasee you.
I'll be there in 15 minutes, butit's actually two, but I'm just
gonna say 15.
For you, what does that looklike in terms of your typical

(33:11):
week?
Do you go in every day?
How many patients do you see onyour busiest days?
So it

kind of depends on the day.
I am there every day of theweek, except for one day a week.
I work for Woca IHS.
Okay.
That's kind of my side gig tohelp, fun things.
Yep.
And my hours are nine to sixbecause I wanted people when
they get off work to be able tohave access to a doctor.
Sure.
So, a lot of the teachers intown get off at three o'clock.

(33:37):
A lot of people that you knowwork the nine to fives, I can
see them at 5, 5 30.
And then I do one the firstSaturday of every month, I'm
there for a half day.
Okay.
So I have, so a handful ofpatients that can only see me on
Saturdays and otherwise theyjust wouldn't have a doctor at
all.
Yeah.
So I like being able to havethat kind of flexibility.
Yeah.
And then, it's a Saturdaymorning now and I was able to
take care of my patient thismorning.

(33:58):
I don't guarantee weekendavailability or after hours
availability, but if I'm sittingaround, in my nightgown watching
Grey's Anatomy on Netflix, thenI can row on some

clothes and meet you and, take care of
you.
I love that.
And how much of your everydaywork is telemedicine versus in
person?

The vast majority is in

person.
Yeah.

Yeah.
I would say maybe 10% istelemedicine.
Okay.
And my patients know that.
I like to stab them.
They know that I like to, youknow, if they have something,
you know, I had a patient with acyst on her face that everybody
else had refused to remove'causethey were worried about
scarring.
She's like, wow, I don't careabout scarring.
I was like, okay, well if youdon't care about scarring, I'll
do my absolute best.
And I, you know, did some didsome buried sutures after

(34:38):
remove, remove the inclusioncyst.
And she's been very happy withit.
Knee injections, PRP injections,platelet rich plasma mole
removals.
Yeah.
People know that.
I like to cut things.
It's good.
Good solid family medicinedoctor.
I like, I like to joke at'emlike, patients know I like to
stab them.

Oh my goodness.
Well, I think it's, it's greatalso that you're able to,
because there have been someresidents who, like I met one in
the Central Valley in Californiawho asked, do DPC doctors have
opportunities to learnprocedures?
'cause I'm not learninganything.
And she's going to a very, verywell known, medical school.
And so it was very, sad to hearthat.

(35:15):
Mm-hmm.
Because also being a person wholoves rural medicine, who loves
being able to do these thingsmm-hmm.
Everybody should be empowered tobe able to choose to do these
things after residency and betrained to do them.
So I, I think that's great.
And,

Shout out to my attendings and
training too.
Mm-hmm.
Like Dr.
Sally Ann Patton I can rememberpresenting a patient to her that
had a large lipoma on his backand I was like saying that we
needed to refer to surgery.
And she said, absolutely not.
We're not referring to surgery.
We'll schedule him for aprocedure and we'll take it out
right here in the office.
I was like, oh, we can, even in,they're that, that big.
And she said, yeah, absolutely.
I remember that so vividly.
And then a colleague that shewas in residency with me, her

(35:51):
Dr.
Hernandez and Dr.
Sayer worked to open a freeprocedure clinic Wow.
For like homeless andunderinsured.
So we did procedures.
A lot heavier than otherprograms, I think.
Yeah.
That's great.
That's great.
Especially because those skillsare serving you.
Now I will say the very lastpatient I had at Creek Nation
she needed a biopsy.

(36:11):
It's so hard to get a biopsy.
'cause it was just me and oneother doctor that pretty much
did procedures at the time.
Sure.
For the whole tribe.
So you would have to refer todermatology.
If you don't have a cancerdiagnosis, you're not getting a
referral to dermatology.
So I biopsied her, turned out tobe melanoma.
She did have it in her lymphnodes.
I met her about a year and ahalf later and she hugged me and

(36:32):
said I saved her life because Iwas able to actually get her the
diagnosis and get her thetreatment.
And I was so glad to be able tolean on my training and know
that I'm able to do that thing,that kind of thing for people.
That's awesome.

How did you look at pricing for your
services and your membership?
Because there are other DPCs inOklahoma.
Mm-hmm.
But again, you're, there's onlyone Dr.
Bird Greer.
So how, how did you determineyour pricing?
So

I pretty much looked at every place in
Oklahoma.
Mm-hmm.
And saw what they were pricingand tried to pick kind of a
price right in the middle.
But then I also went a bit loweron my young adults age, like 20
to 35.
Mm-hmm.
I set their price lower at just$50 a month because we have a
big population here that dopipelining welding, like working

(37:19):
young guys like my familymembers Sure.
That don't ever see the doctorbecause they can't get, they
can't take off work.
So that's kind of why I set theSaturday hours and the after
work hours.
Yeah.
And I set the price lowerbecause, job variability is all
over the place, especially whenyou're involved in pipelining.
It's hit or miss.
You save your money when it's.
Wow.
Good times.
And you pinch the pennies whenit's bad times.

(37:41):
Yeah.

And when you look at your overall,
because you go from, and correctme if I'm wrong$25 per member
per month for a certain agegroup, as long as they're with a
person who's in that adultrange.
Yep.
That's children.
And then you also have from 32to 64, a$75 per member per month
membership.

(38:02):
Yep.

From,

from

yeah.
So the youngest are up to 19,kids with a family member 25 and
then 20 to 35.
The young adult range are 50,and then 36 plus are 85.

And then on your website it says age 64.
So are you still opted intoMedicare?
Yes.
'cause of your your other quoteunquote side gig?
I would, I would, I wouldclassify the side gig.
Job?
Yes.
Yes.
Got it.
I'm still opted

in because I still need that one
day a week to.
Kinda make me feel secure.
I, I'm thinking when I get toaround 200 patients yeah.
I'll feel secure opting out.
Yep.
But for right now, I like havingthat safety net of that set
income, working that shift thereonce a week.
Yeah.

and when it comes to ideal panel for you
to maintain, your lifestyle, butalso to make sure that you're
not making your list go down to,and it would never happen.
But the five minutes per patientsituation that you had before in
Chea, what is your, what are youthinking is your like, full

number?
So, I have two different ideasin mind.
If I stay right now as a micropractice, just me answering the
phones, doing everything, doingmy own phlebotomy and my own
ultrasounds, like everything I'mthinking 300 be, would be the
sweet spot Uhhuh.
If I decide to hire a MA or aLPN I'm thinking I could, pretty
easily do 500.
Yeah.
But, I'm honestly reallyenjoying not being in charge of

(39:30):
anyone besides me and mypatients.
Mm-hmm.
After, the administrative rolefor sure.
I had before.
This is just such a nice break.
Yeah, well, especially duringthe Covid pandemic too.
Yes.

That's a lot of coordination.
It was.
Because you also are not onlyboard certified in family
medicine, you're also boardcertified in obesity medicine,
and you have offerings on yourwebsite just for people who are
wanting to see you for obesitymedicine services.
How does that work in terms ofif a person is already a member?
Mm-hmm.

(39:58):
And then how, who are the peoplewho are coming in just for
obesity medicine services?
Right.

So if

somebody

is.
Already a member and they wanthelp losing weight, I don't
charge any extra.
Mm-hmm.
I consider that part of primarycare.
Sure.
And I just spend extra time withthem at no extra charge.
But if somebody comes to me fromoutside, they say, I love my
PCP.
I like them for everything thatthey do for my blood pressure.
I just need help losing weight.
And they weren't sure what todo.
Then I kind of see them as aconsultant and I will send my

(40:28):
con consultation note back totheir primary.
Got it.
And I will strictly focus onlifestyle.
Check any labs that may not havebeen checked.
A lot of people forget about B12iron, things like that, that
affect metabolism that may notbe checked in a routine panel
from primary care.
And we decide what medicationsare best, what type of, diet and
exercise they need to slowlystart incorporating.

(40:50):
'cause if you try to do too muchat once, it's just not gonna
work.
Totally.
We focus mostly on habitstacking and Yeah.
Goal setting.
Yeah.
That's great.
And,

In terms of the balance of potentially
300 people, if you areMicropractice mm-hmm.
Going forward, versus if you hadsomebody and you had, a higher
number of patients, how do youforesee obesity consultations
playing into that number?

I like kind of where I'm at.
I think I'm about a thirdobesity medicine and the rest is
primary care.
And I, I think that's a goodratio.
Yeah.
Like I think if I keep thatratio, it'd be just fine.
If I ended up with too many,like over half obesity medicine,
I think it would beoverwhelming.
'cause I do see those patientsat least once a month.
Sure.
And I spend a lot of timecounseling.

(41:34):
They're a little more involved.
Honestly, I probably underpricedmyself with my obesity
membership, but you know, it'salready set, so I'm gonna keep
doing what I'm doing.
Yeah.
And you can

always change.
Yeah.
When it comes to the.
Coordination of like you doing aconsultation note and you
sending it to their primary one?
I, I, I, I think about how manytimes does a, a, a person who I
send a note to one receive it.
Mm-hmm.
And then two, do they, do youget any people on the outside of

(42:02):
your DPC wanting to talk morewith you, collaborate for their
patient, who they're taking careof as the primary?

I haven't had a lot of primaries
reach out to me directly.
I actually randomly had a churchcounselor, a, a preacher reach
out to me saying that he wasworking on, lifestyle and
behavior and mood, obesity andjust primary care.
And he reached out to see aboutif he could maybe help pay for
some of his members'.
Wow.
Primary care, obesity care.

(42:31):
Yeah.
So that's kind of in the infancystages.
Yeah.
But for the most part, when Ifirst started, I went around to
different primary care doctorsand said, Hey, I am obesity to
medicine.
I have way more time than youguys have to do a lot of
counseling for sure.
So if you wanna send someone myway, send'em my way.
And I, that's where most of myreferrals have come from.
That's

Dr. Maryal Concepcio (42:46):
fantastic.
And these people are also seeingyou once a month in person, or
are they doing everythingvirtually because

mostly

in

person, but I have some that live a
little further away McAllister'sa little over an hour away.
Okay.
So I maybe see them once inperson and then the rest
virtual.
Yeah.
Same thing with Norman or,further places.

Okay, awesome.
And I hate

naming this towns like everybody knows
where they're at.

It's okay.
People, people can access themap.
I've said superior Nebraska somany times on the podcast, so
people, people can look it up.
Have you already had, medicalstudents or residents.
Ask, Hey, can I actually comeout and see what you're doing?
Can I shadow?
Can I learn from you being a DPCdoctor in rural ika?

Yeah.
Actually, when I was in the kindof transition period, I was
still working part-time down atChickasaw Nation as a
hospitalist.
There was a student rotatingthere from oh shoot, I think she
was from OOSU.
Okay.
Oklahoma State.
And she was very interested inlifestyle medicine and obesity
medicine.
And so one of the docs told herabout me and I was like, yeah,
absolutely.
Come on out.
And she rotated with me for aday.
I just had her get the historiesand present the patient, like

(43:52):
you normally would.
And we talked about the plan, wetalked about lifestyle, we
talked about all the differentmechanisms of the medicines.
And then I was like, you need tolearn how to draw blood.
And so I let her draw my bloodand she was stoked about that.
Oh my gosh.
It was before I had my point ofcare ultrasound, so I didn't get
to let her play with that.
But like she was stoked to drawsome blood because she saw me.
I think I drew blood on somebodythat morning.

(44:12):
'cause we were checking, ironThyroid.
Sure.
Vitamin D.
Yeah, vitamin.

And do you have point of care lab
equipment in your,

In your clinic?
So everything is send out.
Okay.
Quest or DLO is what it'scalled.
They will send a courier to pickit up, and then I get the
results the next day.
Okay.
I'm, I'm like

so jealous when you said courier.
I'm like, oh, girl has a courierand I can't get a courier.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, I'm

fancy.

Oh my gosh.
I, I love that.
I, I,

I have, well, I think it helped because
there's an in town there is a PAthat she's been here for a long
time.
Sure.
I think she's getting close toretiring.
She's hired a nurse practitionerthat's picking up some of her
panel.
So they were already coming andpicking up labs for them anyway.
Yeah.
So whenever I started, eventhough I'm lower volume, it's
oh, we're already going to Wikaanyway.
We can

pick up.
Yeah.
I will throw a shameless plugfor anyone.
If you have any Quest contacts,especially in California, please
tell them to reach out to mebecause I have asked Quest
multiple times.
I'm the only person who has aQuest account in our county, and
they won't come.
So that's, it's maddening, butI'm very happy for you.
I'm not happy for CalversCounty.

(45:16):
So when it comes to when itcomes to you thinking about your
medical journey mm-hmm.
And when it comes to studentscoming into your clinic, clearly
you said, you, you should learnphlebotomy.
Mm-hmm.
Which, that's a very big, verybig, very, very big pro tip.
Mm-hmm.
I am so frustrated that I didnot learn that skill in medical

(45:37):
school.
What other tips do you have forpeople who are coming up in
training or they're in residencyand wanting to do independent
DPC practice, especially whetherit be rural or mm-hmm.
Suburban or urban.
What are things that you reallyencourage people to think about?
Whether it be business learning,whether it be procedural skill

(46:00):
learning, what are things thatyou recommend people learn to be
confident in before doingsomething like DPC?
So

I think the biggest thing is to focus on
the variety of locations and thevariety of attendings that are
teaching you That way, you haveexposure to different styles,
you have exposure to differentways of learning and taking care
of patients.
So that is one thing that Iliked, even being at Mayo
Clinic.
Yeah.
We still rotated at the NavalHospital Oh wow.

(46:29):
To do our newborn rotations.
Wow.
And I rotated at university ofFlorida Shands to do trauma
rotations.
So I feel like I got.
A lot of variety and I thinkthat variety is what really
helped.
And even starting in medicalschool, we had, some of our
electives, I picked, ruralmedicine to see this doc out in
rural north east Oklahoma.

(46:49):
And he, covered a hospital andhad his panel and covered a
nursing home.
And I thought that was prettycool.

Yeah.
Spoken like a true familyphysician, his full scope.
I love it.
Lot

of, lot of variety.

Yeah.
I love it.
And when you think about notonly just where you could go if
you remained a Micropracticedoctor or if you had staff, like
you mentioned, what else do yousee happening for Outlaw Medical
now that you have been in,you've been doing it for a while
now, you've you have over ahundred patients.

(47:22):
I, I, I think about, I thinkabout how.
Dr.
Berger who opened, who was notsure if it would work, so to
speak, has already proven thatit, it's working.
Period.
So what, what do you foreseeyourself doing, in the next
three to five years?
I mean,

just enjoying the ride, mainly.
Like once at this rate I'm gonnabe to my, happy place within a
year or two and I'm just lovingthe life, man.
Yeah.
I really enjoy Dr.
Cook down in Ada.
She's the closest DPC doctor tome, so I think she and I have
talked a little bit about maybecovering for each other Sure.

(48:00):
To allow us to have more truevacation versus, right now when
I go on vacation, I'm stillanswering texts and phone calls
and things like that.
But, I see a little bit more ofa a setup, an agreement between,
me and her to cover for oneanother to have real vacations.
Yeah.
But other than that, I just, Ilove my clinic, I love my
patients.
I mean, I'll show you the cliniclater.

(48:21):
I don't, I don't anticipate alot of need to expand.
Yeah, no, it's fantastic.
I'm not, I'm not trying to openmultiple sites.
I just, I just wanna take careof my patients and live my life
and actually have time for myfamily, for once in my life and
animals and all

the things, and be financially able
to do these things withouthaving to see two to 4,000
people.
It's fantastic.
And then, so speaking directlyto those people who are not
necessarily committed to doingDPC yet, especially mm-hmm.
What would you say to thatperson, whether, no matter what
healthcare system they may be inor whether they're in training

(48:57):
or not, or al already anattending, what would you say to
that person?
to challenge themselves to thinkabout when it comes to the
reality of DPC versus being anemployed physician.

Go shadow a clinic.
I mean, like I mentioned Dr.
Cook let me shadow her clinic.
The whole reason I even foundout about DPC was I went to a
DPC Mastermind that Kelsey SmithDr.
Kelsey Smith was hosting, and itjust made me think, oh, maybe I
can actually do this.
And maybe you don't wanna startyour own DPC, but you could work
for a physician owned DPC group.

(49:34):
Yeah.
And still have the lifestylewithout the overhead and the
admin.
Yeah.
I mean,

there's so many ways to do it.
That's awesome.
And I do think that's reallygreat advice, especially because
the movement is growing soquickly.
Do you ever think that ifsomeone said, Hey, I'm in
Edmond, I'm in a different placein Oklahoma could I open a
branch of outlaw out here?
What would you say to somebodylike that?
You mean open a branch?
Like

of your, of your own DBC of my clinic.
I honestly hadn't even thoughtabout that.
It has not crossed my mind.
I mean, I'd be willing to helpand get started.
I'm sure.

Yeah.
Yeah.
I just, I think about thatbecause it, it is very true that
there are a lot of people whoare looking at this in that DPC
is less intimidating if theydon't have to the, the
day-to-day, inventory, cleaningthe toilets, doing the books,
all the things that we do.
But I think about that becauseof, with branding, with you,

(50:28):
establishing the quality and thetype of care that you bring to
outlaw Medical with obesitymedicine, but just also with
these procedures that you'redoing.
I, I think about how would youeven look for a person to.
Replicate, but still be, a a avery independent physician under
your brand.

Yeah, I think it'd be hard to find the
right person, but I meanthere's, plenty that I know that
I think would be amazing thatI've had as colleagues before,
and if they ever wanted to runaway and escape the system, I'd
be happy to help him escape.
Yeah,

that's awesome.
We're going to continue theconversation over in Dr.
Verden Greer's clinic and I'malso gonna be asking her about
her experience with this CO.
Crisis that she was managing, asthe chief of inpatient medicine
at the Chickasaw Nation and howthat translates to how she
thinks about being preparedduring natural disasters.
Especially just recently in, inOklahoma there was very

(51:25):
significant tornadoes especiallyand how to be resilient as a
rural doctor.
But also just, asking questionsabout the, the ins and outs with
the physicality of what she hasas tools in the space that she
has.
So join us over in our patroncommunity and we'll continue the
conversation over there.
Thank you so much for how havingme out here, this has been extra

(51:46):
special and I'm so glad that wewere able to do this.
Oh, I'm so glad you came out.
Like I said, I've been fan Drollhere, defense podcast for years,
way before I actually got thenerve to open my own, so it's
awesome.
I help lots of people.
Thank you for listening to another episode
of my DBC story.
If you enjoyed it, please leavea five star review on your
favorite podcast platform.

(52:08):
It helps others find the show,have a question about direct
primary care.
Leave me a voicemail.
You might hear it answered in afuture episode.
Follow us on socials at thehandle at my D DPC story and
join DPC didactics our monthlydeep dive into your questions
and challenges.
Links are@mydpcstory.com forexclusive content you won't hear
anywhere else.

(52:28):
Join our Patreon.
Find the link in the show notesor search for my DPC story on
patreon.com for DPC news on thedaily.
Check out DPC news.com.
Until next week, this isMarielle conception.

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