March 5, 2025 • 53 mins
Why Transparency Matters Now More Than Ever with Ken Patterson
In this hard-hitting episode of My EdTech Life, I sit down with Ken Patterson, a former principal turned AI consultant, who pulls no punches on how AI is really being used in schools. Ken saw firsthand how AI transformed a struggling school into a top performer, but the system pushed back hard instead of celebrating.
💡 Here’s what we dive into:
✅ How AI helped Ken’s school thrive—before the system shut it down.
✅ Why so many EdTech companies are misleading teachers about AI.
✅ The truth about "wrapper" AI sites—what they don’t want you to know.
✅ Why teachers should be leading AI adoption, not just tech departments.
✅ The missing piece in AI-driven education that no one is talking about.
Ken doesn’t hold back, and this episode is a must-watch for educators, administrators, and anyone who cares about the future of AI in education.
Timestamps:
00:00 Celebrating 100,000 downloads! Huge thanks to our community. 🎉
01:00 Shoutout to our amazing sponsors! Thank you, Yellowdig and Book Creator, for supporting this mission.
02:00 Meet Ken Patterson—his journey from music teacher to AI-driven principal.
04:00 Turning a failing school into a top performer using AI.
07:00 Why the system wasn’t ready for AI success—and how it pushed back.
10:30 The shady side of EdTech—Ken calls out misleading AI claims.
15:00 Should teachers use AI for instruction or just for admin work?
20:00 The problem with "wrapper" AI sites—what they’re not telling educators.
25:00 How AI can either empower or exploit teachers—depending on transparency.
30:00 Ken’s unfiltered take on the future of AI in education.
40:00 Final thoughts and a challenge to educators everywhere.
Special Thanks to Our Sponsors!
💡 This episode is powered by Yellowdig and Book Creator—thanks for supporting real conversations in EdTech!
👇 WATCH NOW and join the conversation!
💬 Do you trust AI in education? Why or why not? Drop your thoughts in the comments!
🔗 Follow Ken Patterson: LinkedIn
🎧 More Episodes: https://www.myedtech.life/
🚀 Stay Techie!
Authentic engagement, inclusion, and learning across the curriculum for ALL your students. Teachers love Book Creator.
Yellowdig is transforming higher education by building online communities that drive engagement and collaboration. My EdTech Life is proud to partner with Yellowdig to amplify its mission.
See how Yellowdig can revolutionize your campus—visit Yellowdig.co today!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Fonz (00:30):
Hello everybody and thank you for my bad.
Here we go.
Hello everybody, and welcome toanother great episode of my
EdTech Life.
Thank you so much for joiningus on this wonderful day and, as
always, wherever it is thatyou're joining us from around
the world, thank you for all ofyour support.
We appreciate all the likes,the shares, the follows, and, if
you know, you know that you'veseen that we hit a hundred
(00:51):
thousand downloads already.
So thank you all, as always,from the bottom of my heart, and
to all our sponsors, thank youfor your support as well.
So big shout out to EduAid, toYellowdig, to Book Creator and
many more.
Thank you all for believing inour mission and today I'm
excited, as always, to bring youan amazing conversation.
(01:11):
So today I would love towelcome to the show Mr Ken
Patterson.
Ken, how are you doing thisevening?
Ken Patterson (01:18):
I am wonderful man, I'm wonderful.
Thank you for having me.
Thanks for what you do, Reallythank you for what you do.
Fonz (01:24):
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate it, ken,and I'm just really excited to
get to talk to you and just tohear a little bit more about the
work that you are have you?
You have been doing, I shouldsay, because I know I've been
following you on LinkedIn for awhile now, over the past, you
know, kind of year and seeingyou grow, seeing you do a lot of
great things and then,obviously, you know, bringing
some great conversation into theLinkedIn space and really just
(01:48):
getting a lot of people to kindof think about things
differently, see thingsdifferently.
So I'm really excited to haveyou here today.
But before we get started withthe meat of the conversation,
for our audience members thatmay not be familiar with your
work yet, can you give us alittle bit of a background story
and what your context is withinthe education space?
Ken Patterson (02:10):
Yes, so I'm going to make it short, but I am
essentially.
Most people think about me asI'm crazy about kids, right, I'm
absolutely crazy about kidsjust because I think as long as
they are here, we have hope,right, and so I'm relentlessly
passionate about them.
My email signature when I wasin education was always
unreasonably committed to kids,because I think we all should be
(02:33):
, and so that's my framework.
The last position I held ineducation was principal.
So I started off as a musicteacher and then I was living
life and enjoying kids, havingfun with kids.
And then it, you know, I wasliving life and enjoying kids,
right, having fun with kids.
And then it's kind of like Iwas called up, like you know,
you would run into some greatadministrators who said, man,
you know, you got to do more,you got to do more and I was
(02:55):
afraid of not being able to bearound kids.
So I became a principal, rightaround, like that was the
highest I was going to go, likeI needed to see kids every day.
So I became a principal.
I knew I wasn't going to gohigher than that, but what
happened was I got promoted fromthe classroom to assistant
principal the year of COVID.
So my promotion was online.
I interviewed in my pajamas andthen the next year, when we
(03:19):
opened back up, I fell in loveand that passion in that
district I was in a very largedistrict in love and that
passion in that district I wasin a very large district in
Maryland and that passion theypromoted me really quickly.
So I was essentially anassistant principal for a year
and so I became a principal andprincipal late, because you know
, some things happened.
It didn't happen there.
So I got the gig.
So it doesn't matter whathappened, I got the gig.
(03:42):
So I got the gig and my firstyear, uh, they were 18 empty
classrooms out of 30 classroomsout of 18 empty classrooms.
And I don't know about ifyou've been in education, right,
but it's like a shortage.
So I had to grab teachers offof um, uh, facebook basically,
where I got like a teachingforce from um.
But that little red tag groupman, we've done a little gritty
(04:02):
group man I just said just come,show up every day for kids,
we'll make it happen.
Chat GPT came out that year and, like I was like this is it?
This is it Like for principal,data analysis and speed is
really what it's about, so Ididn't use it.
Long story short, the end ofthat year we got second out of
the entire district of 125schools.
First year principal got secondout of the entire district of
(04:23):
125 schools.
First year principal 18 out of30 teachers had two of them
worked at Panera before I hiredthem, like we should not have
had any success.
But the AI kind of kicked inand I thought I said this is, we
have found the golden spoon,like you know.
So I was passionate about itand then I just think that
(04:43):
education wasn't ready at thetime, because you can't tell I'm
passionate, ok, you can't tellI'm passionate, I don't know
that the system was ready at thetime for someone who was
genuinely passionate andgenuinely in love with kids and
generally passionate about thisnew technology.
And so as it stood, you knowthe system, I think honestly, I
think they do their best, butyou know, when you have this
(05:04):
type of growth, it wasproblematic and so I became a
consultant.
I became a consultantreluctantly.
I was not trying to consult, soI was trying to just tell people
hey, man, this thing is it, man, this thing is it.
And that's how I got started.
And so I'm here, man, justreally I like what you do.
It's funny that you mentionedEduAid man, because Thomas is
(05:26):
the one that told me about you.
I don't know, I don't know if Iever told you that, but Thomas
said, man like you gotta, yougotta, you gotta see my ed tech
life.
And you were the first podcastI listened to.
Like when I was in myconference and spoke to a.
It was a national conferenceand I just was speaking about
(05:49):
passion for education, right,and like people were like, hey,
you know, come talk to me.
And I was like, oh crap, I gotto have a business.
So like that's why I sayconsultant, this kind of came in
reverse, if that makes senseno-transcript.
Fonz (06:52):
We help the students succeed, because that is your
goal in mind.
What was that reaction frompeople around your district?
Ken Patterson (06:59):
So I don't know that anybody expected that level
of success and, I'll be honestwith you, I don't think anybody
expected I wasn't know thatanybody expected that level of
success and, I'll be honest withyou, I don't think anybody
expected I was expecting it, butI was willing to try anything
right, like I felt like if I'min the position, particularly as
someone who has had greatexperiences and has had
challenging experiences inschool, if I'm in the position
to make some sort of adifference, I'm going to do that
(07:20):
.
And so I used it.
And what happened was I startedexperimenting with ChatGPT,
really as a first year principal.
Having only been a assistantprincipal for one year, you have
to understand I'm like I had tolearn it.
And so I said, well, let me getChatGPT to help me.
I knew that it was.
They were.
When the internet first came in,when AI first came out, they
were advertising it as likeoptimization, you know, and all
(07:42):
that.
So I said, well, I can optimize, like my home businesses or
something like that, so I canlearn principle.
And then when I clicked, I waslike, whoa, wait a minute, wait
a minute, I can bring it here.
And so I started like justdoing all the data analysis and
my staff is on board, like ifyou're a first year teacher and
you have never taught you like,and all I got to do is show up
every day and you can do all mydata work.
So you're like, and all I gotto do is show up every day, you
(08:03):
can do all my data work.
All of my leaders.
I had to use them and I wasdoing their work, essentially
because I was getting successand I was early reaching out to
like other principals and otherfriends and they were like oh,
oh.
At first it was really like youdon't touch that, we don't know
, we don't get in trouble.
So I was like let's go use it.
So if you know about AI, it'suse cases, right, and it's
(08:28):
actually technology in reverse.
I literally needed like a fifthyear principal to just tell me
some stuff right, like I couldhave.
They could wipe the floor cleanwith me on AI, but I'm here
just like.
So I had to borrow use casesfrom my own team.
So, like all the leaders themath leader, the reading leader
I'm just.
I said I'm doing data analysis.
They're like are you?
(08:48):
Yes, I am, I'm learning AI,right.
So I would do the data analysisand we flipped it to where,
instead of them coming togetherin that collaborative planning
and just doing data analysis, no, when they came together in
collaborative planning, theanswers were already the data
was already analyzed.
Now it's like, how do we applythis?
And they were like, oh my gosh,this was so like you know.
(09:09):
So that developed and developedto where nobody was doing
anything but being with kids Ifit took you away from kids, give
it to me is what I said.
I had a secret weapon.
I mean, in that time it was afree chat at GBT.
You had to prompt it, you hadto give it an identity and all
that, and so that that did it,and so so, to fast forward, we
were I'm a process guy, right,like I knew that data and all
(09:31):
that in the school systems.
Like I don't, I'm an integrityand process guy.
You just show up every day,work hard and do right, do
absolutely right by kids.
Everything else will take careof itself.
And so it happened and I wassharing some stuff with other
principals because, you know,I'm like use this, use this, use
this.
Everybody was afraid, everybodywas afraid.
(09:52):
So the initial reaction wasgreat job, like I got emails
from the State Department and,like you know, superintendent
had like shouted me out andeverything.
But when it kept going, like Ithink people were like wait a
minute, like this guy's excitedand he won't shut up about it
and he's just because I couldn'tunderstand why people just
wouldn't use it Like it's free.
It's free, I will.
And then the custom GPTs cameout.
Fonz (10:10):
Right.
Ken Patterson (10:11):
Like.
I'm like I will create you whatit's free.
It's free, no.
So that was it.
That was a crisis for mebecause I think at that time I
realized education wasn't readyand there was a lot that went
bad.
Honestly, that I don't know.
I don't blame anybody, but Ithink we are so accustomed to I
(10:32):
mean, it's a hundred yearinstitution, right Like we.
We are not even aware of whatwe have been ingrained in and
what we push out and what we do.
It's just autumn.
So a lot of it was that, but itwas a brutal like it was, you
know.
So I became a consultant, youknow, and then it was weird
because I'm trying to tellprincipals to use it.
It's like he's selling freestuff, like that's I was.
It was like it's not free.
(10:53):
It's chat, tvt, it's free.
Well, if it's free, you'reprobably trying to get money.
On the other end, we know aboutfree samples.
We go to Costco's and we knowwhat a free sample is.
You're trying to get rid of it.
I'm not Like, how do you sell?
I did not, I did not sell it.
I just I wanted you to have it,I wanted you to have, I wanted
(11:17):
to see what.
Honestly, okay, if I'm beinghonest, I wanted to see what
somebody who had been aprincipal for longer could do
with it, like I had run out ofstuff to do, so I wanted just to
see what other people could dowith it so I could get more
ideas.
I wasn't thinking about money,so I was like make money, make
money.
I was like, no, no, no.
So that was the crisis.
And then I said, well, let mecharge a little bit.
And then when I charged, it waslike, oh, he's trying to make
money.
We knew he was just trying tomake money no-transcript.
Fonz (11:56):
Sometimes I feel that it's a mixed bag.
Where it's, the teachers aredriving it, but the tech
departments maybe don't evenknow that this is being used,
and so it's all over the place,many places, and I know that
there's a lot of people withthat enthusiasm that are like,
well, if you haven't been usingit, you're missing out and
you're hurting kids and you'redoing this.
And I was like, well, there'salso the other side that's like,
(12:20):
hey, you know what?
We just want to be verycautious, we want to make sure
that what is being put out andwhat is being used is something
that is going to be beneficialand ethical.
And, of course, you take all ofthose considerations and then
you've got, like you said, thespeedboats that are no, no, no,
move fast, break things, don'tworry about it, we'll take care
of it.
And I'm more kind of like in themiddle and like I people on the
show, you know, just being avery cautious advocate, where
(12:43):
sometimes I'll see the news andI'm like, all right, like yes,
okay, this is going to help usmove forward.
And then all of a sudden,something happens and it's like,
oh, you know, let me kind oflike, okay, let's, let's slow it
down and maybe it's just meoveranalyzing things, but that's
why I love having theseconversations, because I get to
amplify so many voices and somany experiences here, including
your own, which I think issomething that is very
(13:03):
attractive to have a principalor former administrator using
this and showing the successthat they had, but then also
getting your perspective thatwhen you go out there and you
visit with administrators peoplethat were in the same roles,
doing very similar things andare not you know that they're a
(13:23):
little, very cautious, or maybeoverly cautious, in seeing what
this might be able to do forthem, like it did for you.
So I want to ask you now, fromthat moment on in 2022 to 2025,
how are you feeling about AI andwhat it is that you're seeing
through now that you're aconsultant?
In that consulting perspective,are there still a lot of people
(13:45):
holding out and, through yourexperience, what might be some
of the main reasons that they'reholding out?
Ken Patterson (13:53):
So I'm going to, I'm going to be, I'm going to
shock you, right, like I'm goingto be honest, right, so you.
So, so it's in reverse, thepeople who are holding out and
they're holding out because theydon't understand it or don't
really see what it is, and allthat If they are genuinely doing
that, they are in the perfectposition, and I mean this is
(14:14):
going to be the wildest thing.
Educators as a, as an industry,and not even industry education
as as all of us, right, we arethe most beautiful humans, like
the absolute most beautifulhumans.
We internally care about kidsand want to protect them.
So something, and I will tellyou this, something on the like,
(14:35):
some intuition if you really docare about kids and you really
are good at what you do, you,you Did, you would not have
jumped on, or, if you did, itwould have been reluctantly
because it was presented wrong.
And this is the issue.
This is what I was afraid of,right, the dirty, dark, little
secret.
If I'm being honest with you,the year after I had all that
(14:56):
success, it was total failure,right, let me be honest, right,
and that's what made drove myguilt to be honest with you,
made drove my guilt, to behonest with you, and that's what
drove me like on this mad rushto make sure that everybody
because I felt like I had I knewwhat the issue was and I didn't
want it to to progress.
And here's what the issue was.
The first year, ai, I saw it asan adult thing.
(15:18):
Right, I saw it as dataanalysis because I saw I still
see teachers as the gifts of theworld to education.
So I use it to get everythingout of the way of teachers.
Teachers did not use ai.
Like we had some ai stuff.
They would come and like dolessons here and there.
The older teachers like theyactually the seasoned teachers,
like the five or six I had, likethat were really seasoned, were
(15:38):
actually using it to bring theyounger teachers up to speed,
like so it was an adult thing.
Definitely the kids don't haveit.
The next year, like we did geta grant from the district and
they gave us a bunch of money touse it and so I gave it to the
teachers to put inside theclassrooms and they were doing
all the wonderful things.
They were up, you know, theywere fortnighting lessons and
things like that.
But my data went way in thetrash and I was I panicked.
(16:01):
I said what is what is this?
It dawned on me at the time atleast, that AI is very abstract.
It's math.
It's basically math with words,right.
So it's very abstract in how itpresents things, but it does
not present as pedagogy.
As a teacher, our standards arealigned and they're like things
(16:22):
that are connecting standardsthat we are not even aware of.
So if you are a new teacher,yes, you could punch in
something and a lesson comes outin 17 seconds, but it may be
missing a key that went to thestandard two days before or
standard back there.
It's basically a hotspot.
So the kids knew that one plusone was two, but because the
common core and because some ofthis other stuff is more
(16:45):
conceptual in learning, while AIis abstract, my kids knew one
plus one was two, but when thetest came out and they had to
draw the relationship betweennumbers, they did not do it and
my teachers did not do it.
So it was a mismatch with kids,at least in elementary.
I was like crap and then Ifigured I know why it is.
It is about.
It's about collaboration andsynthesis.
(17:07):
So they were too young, theywere still learning, like the
kids have to learn the thing.
The synthesis, without AI, forus, comes in middle school.
Right, we're working in groupsin middle school.
High school, we're puttingpapers together by college,
we're doing research.
That's the synthesis adds asyou go up Elementary, I was like
oh no, so that really was thedanger.
(17:28):
And so I saw that that's wherethe entirety of K-12 started.
So in the summertime I was likeno, I was crashing out, as the
kids would say on Facebook, andthe principals groups like hey,
you guys got to use this.
No, no, I saw the teachers runinto it and it to me that the
teachers are kids at all, butit's like they're going to do ed
(17:51):
tech stuff with it.
Like, principals, please,superintendents, I was yelling,
I was screaming, anybody wouldlisten and everybody was silent.
But the teachers were runningwith and I was like no, no, no,
no.
So that was the painful partfor me in the summertime, like.
But what I had to realize is itwas really an issue of control.
I can't control that, right,like, I wanted to be one man
(18:12):
that like had the answer, youknow, but I couldn't control it,
so I just tried.
So then I kept trying to getinto systems.
Right, edna Bay came and I'mhelping systems out.
But what was happening is theother thing about ai it has to
land for all of us at the sametime and then we apply it
differently.
It's not core.
So if edivate was getting these, we were getting contracts
(18:34):
right.
But it's like if I just go andwork with your special education
department and just use aithere, it's going to offset,
it's going to throw everythingoff, like it's I'm actually
hurting adoption, like at somepoint it's going to come back
and hurt, and so I.
So I had that crisis and, andwhat happened recently, which is
great is is now a couple ofschool districts are like hey,
(18:55):
we get it, let's go, let's do itas a district.
Everybody does it together.
Now we apply it differently,but it makes teachers humans
again.
Right, because now teachersit's basically knowledge.
In reverse, they haveeverything they need.
So the teachers have alwaysbeen a gift.
They've always been a gift.
Now it's us getting out oftheir way.
It's what I did with it thefirst year Get out of the
teacher's way, shut the door,let them do what they do, and we
(19:18):
use AI to do all the dataanalysis and all that stuff like
that.
So now I'm full circle becauseI see I think it's picking up.
I think it's picking up, Ithink people are getting it.
Ed tech is not out of thepicture.
It's just that ed tech, liketeachers, kind of moved to
aiding.
Right, we're aiding, assistingmore so than dominating, and I
(19:43):
think that identity is what edtech has to take in order to
really, like you know, berelevant in the new era, right?
So we want teachers to reallybe autonomous and we really
believe in teachers.
We've got to let them be them.
That that that's that to me,that's.
I hope that helped a little bit.
I know, yeah, yeah, no, no, no,of course.
Fonz (19:58):
Which kind of leads me to to my next question and, just to
be open and honest, I followyou on LinkedIn and, of course,
on LinkedIn I did see a post youknow you posted up recently I
saw it yesterday and it gained alot of traction and it really
just highlights the concernsabout edtech platforms just
repackaging, you know,themselves, you know, and just
(20:20):
really taking those chat, GPT,AI models and again talking
about those wrapper platformsand so on.
So I want to ask you, you knowwhat are your thoughts on that?
You know, right now we'retalking, you know how you use
ChatGPT on its own, but, as youknow, you know, there are
several platforms out there,very popular ones, that are just
(20:40):
really full on.
Ken Patterson (20:42):
Can I call them out?
I'm going to call them out.
I'm going to call them out.
I don't owe nobody anything tokids.
I'll kids all right, let me justsay right, I'm sorry.
I let me just say rapper sites,that the okay.
Let me, let me say it this way,that to me, integrity is first.
Integrity is first I, I, when Isay rapper sites, it is okay to
(21:06):
say we use chat, gbt and we'remaking it easier for you as a
teacher, because it's a lot oflearning curve.
But here's what water is, wateris H2O, like that's water, we're
ice, right, we're the icecompany, right, and if that's
how we teach, so if I don't makethat absolutely clear, there's
a little bit of deception to me.
(21:27):
Like you've got to beabsolutely clear, especially for
teachers.
They're exhausted.
I've been a principal.
Like they're exhausted, I dideverything I could do to help
them out.
They're exhausted.
They don't deserve to have tolook at fine print, they don't
deserve to have to do that.
So you've got to be honest.
So in me I was giving for free,I was literally for free,
(22:06):
no-transcript.
But when you don't tellteachers who are being
introduced for the first time toan LLM what an LLM actually
factually, without question, is,to me that's the beginning of
deception and I can't trustnothing else that happens.
Now.
Rapper sites are great if it'slike you know, like I go to
(22:29):
7-Eleven.
I don't know, you know I go to7-Eleven because I don't feel
like cooking.
So you know, I know that, likethey, probably, you know, I'm
probably paying three times orwhatever, but they're honest
about it, right?
So, uh, educate, I know thatyou, I know that I'm not.
I get paid nothing from nobody.
I want to be very, very clear.
(22:52):
I am talking about integrityversus not integrity.
Thomas I talked to, like I callhim T squared, t squared, tom
Tom.
So they.
What I loved about them, whatwarmed my heart, was that they
are very clear about what it is.
They are like this is an LLM,this is chat GBT or this is
(23:12):
whatever.
This is what we do to help you.
We are in, we are in educationand we're going to make it easy,
we're going to make the bridgeeasier for you to move into this
.
There is no, no question as towhat's going on.
Every time I was on theinternet, people who were part
of like magic school I'm goingto call them out magic school
and I'm only being fair becauseI reached out to them several
times.
I went off the last couple ofdays because somebody inboxed me
(23:36):
and said I was doing it forclicks and likes and that is low
.
That is low.
So EduAid spends a lot of timebeing very honest about what
they are and what they do.
And I can, I don't when Ifigure that out.
I just I left them alonebecause I can trust anything
that they do at this point,right, like what.
On the flip side, if youobscure that, because teachers
(23:57):
don't know what LLMs are, theydon't know what AI is, they
don't understand that, likeyou're really just prompt, pre
prompting, I'm just literallypre prompting.
They don't understand it, butthey could appreciate it if
you're honest.
So there are a lot of sites.
I don't even know all the AIsites, but if AI sites are
honest about what they are andwhat they do and they are really
giving you their expertise tounlock your expertise and they
(24:20):
are closing that bridge andfixing that bridge for you,
that's perfect.
I think that's perfect.
I think that's perfect, likebecause I think it's perfect
because AI is personalized.
But if I have to hide orpretend or obfuscate or say,
well, sometimes we use this,sometimes we use that, we can't
do that Like, we can't do that,right, you can't do that.
So that to me that hurtsteachers.
That assumes that they are notintelligent.
(24:41):
It takes advantage of what theydon't know instead of helping
them understand, and we don'thave any place for that in the
field of education.
Ed tech is going to be strong inthis new era right, because ed
tech still has this place.
But if ed tech wants to slideover it and pretend to be
something, that's going to be aproblem, right, but there may be
some AI.
Ai gives you an opportunity tobe more specialized, even right.
(25:06):
So I see AI sites for, like,the revolutionary war right,
like you know, you might go tothis.
You know it gives you a chanceto be specialized.
But you have to be honest.
We are missing integrity and itwas not our fault, it was
allowed.
Our entire nation is goingthrough the same thing right now
.
Right, we're just a microcosm.
Be honest.
We have to be true, because allof that has torn us apart.
(25:29):
It has been things that havebeen hidden and the bureaucracy
and all that stuff.
Thankfully, I think it's goingaway.
But if we're in ed tech, it'sgot to be about honesty and
truth.
No one should be confused aboutwhat we have behind the scenes.
A rapper's side is fine, aslong as they know that, hey, I
can go right to magic school andget a recipe for my dinner
tonight right in that secondgrade English slot.
(25:50):
Teachers didn't know that andwhen I would say that, they
would tell me that I'm wrong.
So I said you don't, that meansthey're not, it's not being
clear to them or it will bedeleted, like, like there was
some other stuff going on.
So I reached out, cause I saidyou know, I know that a deal
wouldn't do this, like maybe hedoesn't know whatever.
I reached out, I reached outand I got it's the swarm.
The swarm came and the swarm tome, honestly, are.
(26:12):
I think those educators are,are great people, like, like,
anybody who wants to innovate,to fix education is a great
human.
But I think that they may havebeen misled.
Also, they don't know.
I'm waiting for the day thatwe're just all honest with each
(26:33):
other and our teachers are ableto be special with kids and we
can get out of their way.
That's what it is, yeah.
Fonz (26:40):
And that brings me also to listening to you to where I
have been, even since 2022,.
What happened for me was that Iwas taking a doctoral course
and the 2022, that November, hadjust come out Chad GPT.
I was playing around with it.
I was like, oh my gosh, this isamazing.
(27:00):
And then I had to do researchon AI and I'm talking about, you
know, from 2020 on, you knoweven prior to that.
And then, when I got to thesection of learning what data
rentiership is, is all that data, everything that they collect,
what they do really essentiallyis they're you know, that's how
they're making money.
You know a lot of the platformsand that's why they said if
(27:23):
it's free, then you are theproduct.
And many times we do not get alot of clarity in the terms of
service as far as how this isgoing to be used, how those
clicks are going to be used, howthe student data is going to be
used.
They always you know they andthey do their due diligence in
wording it, and I know that youknow many say like, well, we put
(27:45):
guardrails on this.
My stance sorry, real quick mystance has always been how can
you put guardrails on somethingthat you don't own, you're
plugging in to something elseother than your programmers,
saying, if this, don't do thatand then just to you know kind
of control that output.
So yeah, that's where I'm at onthat.
(28:07):
And the knowledge cutoff datestoo on a lot of platforms that
I've seen it in some, wheretheir knowledge cutoff date is,
you know, 2023.
We're already 2025.
Now they either haven't updatedtheir terms of service and
privacy or maybe that's reallywhere they're at, you know.
So there's still a lot of stuffthere that for me, I want to
(28:27):
cheer them on, but when I readthose things I'm like I don't
know if I'm there yet.
You know I'm seeing it.
But again, that transparencyand being open about it
sometimes, that that is whereI'm kind of like in the middle
all the time and just verycautious.
Ken Patterson (28:44):
And you should be like.
So I think, I think so.
We need the like, the ones thatrun out front.
Right, that's me.
Right, I'll.
The first time I hear aboutsomething, I'm running after it,
I don't care, right, like, youneed people like that, but you
also need to listen to peoplelike that.
That that's the other issue.
Right, you got to listen tothem because if they they've had
some success, I startedrealizing something was off.
(29:04):
When you're asking me for data,and I gave you the data that it
didn't matter, right, like,like, like, what, what else do
you?
I said I started with the datathat the school system is
failing.
That's the data I started with.
Like, I don't need any otherdata, then we're failing, right,
and so.
So there was a little bit morelike I was starting to learn a
little bit that didn't know.
And education, and you know this, in education, the layers are
(29:28):
thick in between.
So teachers really don't knowwhat goes on in the second layer
.
Principals, really, I'll tellyou, do not know what's going on
above them, right, like I oweno one but kids.
So when I talk, I'm telling thetruth.
So they don't know.
And that's by design, right,that's by design.
So.
So what was happening was now.
If you see me looking down atteachers, looking at them, now I
(29:49):
see, knowing what I know, ai.
They're not getting directionand they are trying their
hardest.
Like I'm not trying to be likeemotional, but like these
teachers are trying theirhardest.
Man like and I know what it isand every teacher that has left
these teachers are not badpeople like.
They left because they cared.
So if you have any likehesitation, it's probably
because something in your soulsays this is not it.
(30:11):
This something is off aboutthis.
Right are lots of things thatcan be in the way of success
(30:33):
that are intentionally placedthere Data privacy if you know
anything about AI, you just cutand paste the internet policy
that you had, right.
You don't need to do much morethan that.
And, as a matter of fact, ifyou don't clarify that you're
using a wrapper site, then youget the opposite, because then
(30:53):
teachers trust an AI site that'sthird party because they think
in their brain we've beenlooking at the educational site
for our entire careers.
You don't know, if you don'ttell them the truth, they'll put
more information in AI justbecause they.
I hope that makes any sense,but it's just by doing it the
opposite, you're hurting theteachers.
They have already gone throughenough.
(31:13):
They've gone through enough,like, stop it.
So what I think we have to havea discussion about and I think
it's fair is, if we're honest,that's how I know when that
magic school thing happened.
That's how I know when thatmagic school thing happened.
That's how I know people arenot being honest.
If we're honest about dataprivacy, you would have checked
that already.
If you're marching around hereas an AI ethicist, ai governance
, whatever you would have known,or unless you don't know AI,
(31:36):
either you don't know AI or youwould have known that that is
not a safeguard.
And why are we guardinganything?
We should be guarding thingsaway from kids.
Today I saw for the first timeand I'm going to shout after I
say this.
Today I saw for the first timeand it warmed my heart and I'm
trying not to be emotional man,like, like.
I'm passionate.
I'm passionate because becauseI know in my community, as a
(32:00):
minority I'll be honest with youI know what not having access
can do and perpetuity, right.
I know what not having accesscan do in perpetuity, right.
I know what not having accesscan do, and so I felt that this
was intentional.
And so today I saw it was aneducator in Africa and he said,
like he's a proud gatekeeper.
And I immediately was like, no,no, the gatekeeper, because I
(32:23):
had been trying.
Nobody was giving Ken anyattention.
Right, because I know what itis now.
Now, it's because Ken was notin it for anything wrong.
I was in it for you, right solike.
You can't have Ken around ifyou're trying to steal money
from people, right so like.
But this guy called gatekeeper.
I was like, no, thegatekeeper's kept Ednavate out.
So I almost like, in that worldthey see gatekeeping as
(32:47):
protection, protecting the kidsfrom the bad stuff.
That's the gate they keep InAmerica.
It seems like the gate we'rekeeping is protecting the bad
stuff from the good people.
And so when he said that hesays I'm a proud gatekeeper, I
got it.
I got it.
We need gatekeepers, the realones, the ones that make sure
(33:07):
that teachers should not have toread fine print.
They should not have to feellike they're going to get in
trouble.
If they do, they don't evenneed, they don't need the ed
tech.
They need, like, the honest edtech because you need kids, you
need to be able to see if kidsare learning, yes, but they
don't deserve to have to siftthrough more paperwork to figure
out what they, what they couldput in there, what they can't
(33:37):
they, they don't do that.
That's why I said and this is itenterprise when I, when I put
out the um, the evidence ofthings unseen, or the evidence
of things not, saying that was aa new era of framework for
education based on what I knowis truth.
I, I don't.
I know it's truth, I don't, Iknow it's truth.
And what it does is it it?
It builds the teacher.
We have so much talent outsideof the field of education that
just simply could not stand onemore day of their dignity being
(33:59):
ripped apart.
Right, and we've, we've pushedthem out and we've made them
look bad.
They may be the best, the bestforce.
Right, they may be the bestforce out there.
So the ones that are remaining,that are holding on tight, you
don't lie to them, you do nottake advantage of them and stop
treating them like children.
So, when the AI policies andgovernance and all these people
are marching around with it,that was I had been with kids as
(34:23):
a principal.
I, every day, I had to shieldmy teachers from stuff I knew
did not make sense.
I would get in trouble.
Actually, I won't get introuble because this is all fake
.
I will not get in trouble.
You're not getting rid of me.
I knew that all I had to do waslove my babies, and if I loved
them babies, the parents wouldstand up for me.
I knew that.
So if there was something thatdidn't make sense, that robbed
(34:45):
teachers of dignity, I did notbring it to my building.
I did not bring it to mybuilding, and all I want is that
for the entirety of education.
And so when I see these things,when I see things like data
privacy and this and that, andoh, we got to do governance, we
got to put guardrails, we got todo all that, I feel like it's
limiting.
(35:05):
I feel like it's intentionallylimiting, because none of these
words occur in other countriesand none of these words are
priorities in private schools inour own nation.
Let teachers be human, use AIto clear the forest and let them
shut their doors and be great.
That's what AI is for.
I'm sorry.
Fonz (35:27):
That is very well stated and very well said.
I'm passionate man.
No, no, no, and that's great,and that's what we love here,
and that's what I love aboutdoing this show is the fact that
it's I am right in the middleand I give equal time to both
sides, and, again, it's just tocontinue these conversations.
Sometimes, you know, maybethere's somebody there like like
(35:50):
I reached out to you because ofwhat you shared and I was like
I gotta have ken, because I needsomebody that is again like you
right now, that it has nothingto fear, and you're just being
open and honest with yourobservations because, like we
were talking right now, evenmyself, in my current role and
in any role, it's like there arevery few and many people know
(36:12):
this, and I've talked to thosepeople and I said that there are
probably just a handful ofplatforms or apps that I will
directly stand behind because oftheir openness, transparency,
genuineness, authenticness andauthenticity, I should say, and
about them and what they'redoing, and that they're very
open about it.
There are many other apps, too,where I'm just like, well, I'll
(36:35):
say I've seen stuff that comesup.
You know, sometimes it's like,hey, I got this weird answer.
This student got this weirdanswer and I was like, well,
this shouldn't be happening.
You know why should a teacherhave something else to worry
about on their plate when theyput this application on there
and the student gets a wronganswer or something that is
harmful or gets, you know, evena lot of the image creators.
(36:58):
When you type in certain wordsthere still hasn't been a fix
for that images, we, even when Itry to create myself and then I
put their stocky Hispanic male,it always puts me with a beard
and a mustache, you know, andI'm like, and that's because I
put like, no beard, no mustache,and I always look the same, you
(37:20):
know.
So it's a lot of those thingsthat I'm concerned about, and
worried about because, yeah,maybe some people, and sometimes
I think like, am I overthinkingthis?
But no, it's like you're sayingthat intuition that I feel like
, wait a minute, like this isn'twhere it needs to be yet.
So maybe we need to hold off abit on that and let's see which
ones are really working and aredoing like you said.
Ken Patterson (37:41):
So you're right, you're right.
But here's where we lean in.
It's opposite, it's everythingin reverse.
This is I tell teachers and Itell educators, literally
everything in reverse,everything in reverse.
That's my, that's my thing.
That slipped your thinking.
Just just try, just flip yourthinking.
They're large, I call themlarge learning models, but
they're large language models.
(38:02):
I'll use L for learning just tokind of give teachers
understanding that it does learnright.
So it also wants to be corrected.
It can be corrected.
I had the same issue you had.
I typed in on a Father's Day.
I said good father tying a tiefor a black son.
And it was a white dad tying atie for a black child, Not that
white, that's not what I'msaying.
It's just assume that goodfather meant white male, and if
(38:26):
a son needed a tie to be tied,it's a black male.
So because at first I saidfather tying, you know, good
father tying tie, and it was toowhite.
Then I said no, black son.
Then it was a white father,black son.
I said it didn't even put thetwo together, you know.
So as you use it and you fix itand you do that, we need to lean
in, because the more we lean in, the more it's learning.
It learned what we had put inin the beginning.
(38:52):
So everything that we gave itwas a snapshot of who we were.
If we want to be better now, weshould see it being better.
Like you may put something inLos Angeles, I may put something
in Maryland, if we're bothfixing chat, gpt and correcting
no, not that, no, not that.
This it's learning andcollectively we're building it.
So, really, if you think aboutit in reverse and this is this
(39:12):
sounds really crazy, I know, butwe almost can tell how much
better we are as a society ifeverybody's using it and we're
seeing better outputs, becauseit's going to do what it's
learning from us right now.
It's it's.
It has what we had.
It has what we were.
That's why we have to use it,and educators especially have to
use it, because we might haveit.
We're actually the ones youthink the robots are teaching
(39:32):
the kids.
No, we need to teach the robots.
They're not robots, by the way.
We need to teach them and weneed to teach the kids right so
that when they use it, it'sbuilding the LLM the right way.
It's building the right way.
Fonz (39:44):
And that kind of brings me to, kind of my last question,
as we kind of start wrapping up.
I want to ask you, you know,for you, how can we better this
education scape, you know, asfar as the collaboration with,
maybe, teachers and ed techcompanies, you know, should
(40:06):
there be?
You know, I think many timesit's there, there's companies
that have been started byeducators, but then, at the same
time, it's like there's somethat haven't and are still being
put out there and maybe theydon't have that experience and
they give you what they thinkthe teacher wants.
So, for you, what might yoursuggestions be as far as your
perspective?
(40:26):
What do we need to do to makethis better?
So, what?
Ken Patterson (40:30):
I've thought a lot about this, right?
So the reason why and you'vegot to look at that framework
the reason why that framework isso complete and so pure is I
sat as a principal.
I, that is a.
That is a very unique positionbecause you know everything,
like.
You know how everything works.
You don't know what they'redoing because things are hit,
(40:52):
but I, I can 100 tell you what afriday school lunch in
elementary school has to do withthe budget at the top, right?
So that's what ai actually does.
So, to begin, there cannot beany silo discussions, right?
That's the issue that startedit, where teachers ran to it
because they heard it's notgoing to take your job.
Ai is going to take your job.
(41:14):
It's somebody who uses AI.
Whatever the saying is.
I was looking like no teachers.
You guys deal with kids.
You're never losing your job.
Anybody that tries to put robotsin a classroom is going to fail
.
It's going to fail, right, theytried something somewhere else
is going to fail.
So what we need to do is itneeds to be, always need to be
diverse groups.
That's the point of AI.
Ai is trying to pretend to becollaboration.
(41:38):
That's what it's pretending tobe.
Every piece of technology ispretending to be something.
We just did not know what AIwas pretending to be, because we
do not collaborate, we don'thave like, we don't naturally do
that anymore.
The internet is fastcommunication between computers.
Ai is like internet in 3D it'scollaborating with information.
Ai is what you don't even need.
(41:59):
I kept saying AI is that techand people are like.
This guy is weird.
It's not tech.
I bet you're figuring it outnow.
Ai is what happens when wecollaborate.
When three people get togetherand start sharing ideas, all of
a sudden, it seems like we allget smarter.
Or when I was a ap, my joke wasI was a seventh grade assistant
principal and I had three kidsin detention that were like I
was like, no, they should not betogether.
They're going to be verycreative.
(42:20):
What happened?
So we have to start by being um,collaborative, but everything
in reverse.
The teacher is now the boss.
We've, we've, we've hurt themenough.
We've hurt them enough and I amunapologetic about that and
anybody who does not see it thatway.
You can absolutely probablywork backwards and see that they
are still waiting to maintaincontrol and treat teachers like
(42:41):
kids.
The teachers are the bosses now, right?
So what we need to do is figureout what they want right.
Edtech has tried.
Edtech has been in the worstsituation.
Right, they pay for it, but theteachers use it and they don't.
Edtech knows where the gaps areright.
So EdTech is like you know.
We built this thing but theteacher needs to be the boss.
(43:02):
Whatever the teacher wants iswhat the teacher gets.
Everybody else needs to moveout of the way.
And if we don't do that, I willleak all of the secrets going
up, because none of that reallymatters.
If the teacher isn't in charge,anything up there that we're
doing that doesn't serve theteacher means that we don't want
them with the kid.
We gotta move everything out ofthe way so the teacher and the
(43:22):
child can be together.
And our start in conversation iswith teachers say what do you
need?
What can I do?
They know more than we everwill.
I learned that in my classroom.
I told that to my teachers whenI was a principal.
I don't know fifth grade ELA.
I won't even pretend to knowfifth grade ELA.
You are the fifth grade ELA.
You got a master's in reading.
I'm not trying to be that.
I can help you connect withthat kid.
(43:43):
What can I do to serve you?
What can I do?
What data can I give you thatwill help you out in your
classroom?
That's what happened.
We need to start with theteacher.
They are the boss.
We owe them.
We have hurt them.
We have hurt them.
We have hurt them.
We have hurt them.
They are the boss, and then weask them what they want and when
that happens, we all get aroundthem and we figure out.
So they leave and go back withkids.
(44:03):
Then we sit around and figureout how to put into action what
they asked us to do.
Fonz (44:11):
That is fantastic.
Thank you so much for thatperspective, ken.
Thank you so much for today too, as well, like everything that
you shared, your passion, yourauthentic voice, your
genuineness I mean, like I said,this is I'm thankful that we
were able to make thisconversation happen, and I
really do appreciate your shares, ken, thank you so much.
(44:35):
But before we wrap up, I alwayslove to end the show with the
last three questions.
So, ken, hopefully you areready.
So, as you know, everysuperhero has a point of
weakness or something thatweakens him.
So, for example, superman,kryptonite kind of weakened him.
So I want to ask you, ken, inthe current state of education,
what would be your current edukryptonite?
Ken Patterson (44:57):
So I'm going to flip it, man, what was a
kryptonite?
And the old may be our strengthand the new right.
So, before I would say, mykryptonite is this passion, this
excitement.
Like I get riled up because Ilove kids and so, you know, in
the old system we're supposed tobe controlled, maintained,
right.
Can't be like that.
(45:18):
Now, I don't know, I got to beme, like, let me be me Right.
So my kryptonite was, wasreally that I get passionate and
that passion sometimes goesbefore me.
So so that is something I stillhave to work on, right.
So, like you know, I do have to.
Just because I grabbed AI andran with it and it was the best
(45:38):
thing since sliced bread thefirst day I touched it, I have
to know that, just like I wanteverybody to be themselves, I
have to be patient with peoplewho are being themselves.
I can't interpret that becausethey're not.
You know, after I did it longenough, I realized that they're
actually being wise about it.
Right, I'm not.
That's when I think I'm not.
I'm going to jump into it andjump out of it if it hurts, but
(45:58):
I think for me it's learningjust what I want.
Seeing that I am also not doingthat sometimes when I'm driving
AI because of the benefits,when you've got to give people a
chance to it's an adjustment.
So that's for me.
That's my education at CryptKnight.
So if I'm excited, it's notbecause I'm passionate, that's
all.
I'm not trying to push anybodydown the road anymore.
Fonz (46:19):
Love it, love it.
Great answer, ken.
I appreciate it All right.
Question number two Ken, if youcould have a billboard with
anything, on it.
Ken Patterson (46:32):
What would it be and why?
Tell the truth, tell the truth,truth wins.
Tell the truth.
And the reason?
Because once truth is here,then we all can live free, right
.
We all can be free, right.
Nobody's hiding anything.
We can trust, because if youtrust, you move fast, right.
And no one needs us to trustmore than people who work with
kids, because because they aredependent on us.
(46:53):
So I'm going to say tell thetruth, um, be truthful, be open,
be honest, um, even if peopledon't agree with it.
But we've got to be able totrust each other because kids
are at stake love it.
Fonz (47:02):
Great answer, all right.
And last question if you couldtrade places with anyone for a
day, anyone, who would it be andwhy?
Ken Patterson (47:23):
I didn't think you would ask me this man.
It was a five-year-old kid thatI had I was a principal and it
was a five-year-old kid that Ihad that I was a principal, and
it was a five-year-old kid, andthe system was trying to make me
not give the kid what theyneeded.
And if I could trade placesbecause I haven't seen him since
I've been gone I would tradeplaces with him so I could be
(47:44):
five again and have fun awayfrom all this.
That's why I do this.
I'm sorry that I I'm sorry, butif I could take places, it
would be with him.
They wanted me to.
It wasn't anybody individually.
It was not designed.
He has autism.
He had autism.
He was tearing the room up.
(48:04):
He's a little black boy.
All I saw was the other 19 kidssee a black boy mad.
They didn't understand he hadautism.
They just saw him throwingchairs.
So so this was a psyopsnightmare.
I I didn't see it as just a kidbeing a problem and I tried to
move him and they did try this.
You try to try that like I gothim moved, risking my life and
(48:29):
career, basically.
But I don't care.
But I want to see him again.
I want to see him again.
I would trade places with himto see if he's okay All right.
Fonz (48:37):
Thank you, ken, I really appreciate that.
And again, just the passion, Ilove it.
Thank you so much for justreally opening up and sharing
your heart, sharing yourexperience.
Like I said, this is why we dowhat we do, man just to bring
some great, honest conversations, and sometimes the
conversations may be a littledifferent than what other people
(48:58):
expect, but sometimes we got tospeak the truth.
That's right, you got to askKen about it.
Ken Patterson (49:04):
No, my kindergarten team bought me the
shirt.
It's a private gift.
Fonz (49:08):
Oh okay, there you go, I love it.
I love it.
Well, ken, before we wrap up,can you tell our audience
members who might be interestedin reaching out to you how it is
that they can connect with you?
Ken Patterson (49:18):
If you're on LinkedIn, hit me on LinkedIn.
That's the best place.
And we are building the edge ofRenaissance.
It's called the edge ofRenaissance.
So innovate is really.
We're here to help people makeit make sense for their
districts.
Right, and in a real way, anhonest way, Like we have no
product but we will direct youto products.
Who are telling the truth, wewill help you align things.
(49:39):
That's what we do, right?
So the Ednavate is kind of likeoutlines that, but hit me on
LinkedIn or go to wwwednovateLinkedIn or go to wwwednovate.
That's like educationalinnovation.
So E-D-N-O-V-A-T-E ednovateai.
Or you can email me at ken atednovateai.
So we are here, in truth, tohelp people move forward, Like
(50:02):
let's do this thing right.
That's all I want.
That's all I want.
That's all I want.
That's all I want.
Fonz (50:05):
Perfect, Piper.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate it, myfriend.
And for all our audience members.
Please make sure that you visitour website at myedtechlife,
where you will watch thisepisode.
We'll definitely make sure thatwe link all of Ken's
information his website.
That way you can go ahead andconnect with him, reach out to
him if you have any questions orif you need anything.
Just feel free to reach out,because he definitely has a
(50:28):
heart to help people, andespecially if it's something
that's going to get down to thestudents as well.
So please make sure you reachout to him and make sure that
you check out the other 315episodes that we have, where I
promise you 315 other episodeswhere I promise you you will
find a little something that youcan sprinkle onto what you are
(50:48):
already doing.
Great.
Like I mentioned to you guys atthe very beginning, we love you.
We thank you so much for all ofyour support.
Thank you so much for all thedownloads.
Thank you so much for thefollows to our sponsors.
Thank you to book creator, whois our newest partner.
Thank you to you.
Big shout out to you, to Edu8,to Yellowdig.
Thank you for believing in ourmission.
(51:11):
You will appreciate.
Yes, that's right.
Thomas Thompson, thomas, textme back.
Thomas, thomas Thompson andThomas Hummel Great people.
Make sure that you follow themtoo as well.
So thank you, my friends.
I really appreciate all of yoursupport, and until next time,
my friends, don't forget, staytechie.
Thank you.
Hello everybody and thank you for my bad.
Here we go.
Hello everybody, and welcome toanother great episode of my
EdTech Life.
Thank you so much for joiningus on this wonderful day and, as
always, wherever it is thatyou're joining us from around
the world, thank you for all ofyour support.
We appreciate all the likes,the shares, the follows, and, if
you know, you know that you'veseen that we hit a hundred
(00:51):
thousand downloads already.
So thank you all, as always,from the bottom of my heart, and
to all our sponsors, thank youfor your support as well.
So big shout out to EduAid, toYellowdig, to Book Creator and
many more.
Thank you all for believing inour mission and today I'm
excited, as always, to bring youan amazing conversation.
(01:11):
So today I would love towelcome to the show Mr Ken
Patterson.
Ken, how are you doing thisevening?
Ken Patterson (01:18):
I am wonderful man, I'm wonderful.
Thank you for having me.
Thanks for what you do, Reallythank you for what you do.
Fonz (01:24):
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate it, ken,and I'm just really excited to
get to talk to you and just tohear a little bit more about the
work that you are have you?
You have been doing, I shouldsay, because I know I've been
following you on LinkedIn for awhile now, over the past, you
know, kind of year and seeingyou grow, seeing you do a lot of
great things and then,obviously, you know, bringing
some great conversation into theLinkedIn space and really just
(01:48):
getting a lot of people to kindof think about things
differently, see thingsdifferently.
So I'm really excited to haveyou here today.
But before we get started withthe meat of the conversation,
for our audience members thatmay not be familiar with your
work yet, can you give us alittle bit of a background story
and what your context is withinthe education space?
Ken Patterson (02:10):
Yes, so I'm going to make it short, but I am
essentially.
Most people think about me asI'm crazy about kids, right, I'm
absolutely crazy about kidsjust because I think as long as
they are here, we have hope,right, and so I'm relentlessly
passionate about them.
My email signature when I wasin education was always
unreasonably committed to kids,because I think we all should be
(02:33):
, and so that's my framework.
The last position I held ineducation was principal.
So I started off as a musicteacher and then I was living
life and enjoying kids, havingfun with kids.
And then it, you know, I wasliving life and enjoying kids,
right, having fun with kids.
And then it's kind of like Iwas called up, like you know,
you would run into some greatadministrators who said, man,
you know, you got to do more,you got to do more and I was
(02:55):
afraid of not being able to bearound kids.
So I became a principal, rightaround, like that was the
highest I was going to go, likeI needed to see kids every day.
So I became a principal.
I knew I wasn't going to gohigher than that, but what
happened was I got promoted fromthe classroom to assistant
principal the year of COVID.
So my promotion was online.
I interviewed in my pajamas andthen the next year, when we
(03:19):
opened back up, I fell in loveand that passion in that
district I was in a very largedistrict in love and that
passion in that district I wasin a very large district in
Maryland and that passion theypromoted me really quickly.
So I was essentially anassistant principal for a year
and so I became a principal andprincipal late, because you know
, some things happened.
It didn't happen there.
So I got the gig.
So it doesn't matter whathappened, I got the gig.
(03:42):
So I got the gig and my firstyear, uh, they were 18 empty
classrooms out of 30 classroomsout of 18 empty classrooms.
And I don't know about ifyou've been in education, right,
but it's like a shortage.
So I had to grab teachers offof um, uh, facebook basically,
where I got like a teachingforce from um.
But that little red tag groupman, we've done a little gritty
(04:02):
group man I just said just come,show up every day for kids,
we'll make it happen.
Chat GPT came out that year and, like I was like this is it?
This is it Like for principal,data analysis and speed is
really what it's about, so Ididn't use it.
Long story short, the end ofthat year we got second out of
the entire district of 125schools.
First year principal got secondout of the entire district of
(04:23):
125 schools.
First year principal 18 out of30 teachers had two of them
worked at Panera before I hiredthem, like we should not have
had any success.
But the AI kind of kicked inand I thought I said this is, we
have found the golden spoon,like you know.
So I was passionate about itand then I just think that
(04:43):
education wasn't ready at thetime, because you can't tell I'm
passionate, ok, you can't tellI'm passionate, I don't know
that the system was ready at thetime for someone who was
genuinely passionate andgenuinely in love with kids and
generally passionate about thisnew technology.
And so as it stood, you knowthe system, I think honestly, I
think they do their best, butyou know, when you have this
(05:04):
type of growth, it wasproblematic and so I became a
consultant.
I became a consultantreluctantly.
I was not trying to consult, soI was trying to just tell people
hey, man, this thing is it, man, this thing is it.
And that's how I got started.
And so I'm here, man, justreally I like what you do.
It's funny that you mentionedEduAid man, because Thomas is
(05:26):
the one that told me about you.
I don't know, I don't know if Iever told you that, but Thomas
said, man like you gotta, yougotta, you gotta see my ed tech
life.
And you were the first podcastI listened to.
Like when I was in myconference and spoke to a.
It was a national conferenceand I just was speaking about
(05:49):
passion for education, right,and like people were like, hey,
you know, come talk to me.
And I was like, oh crap, I gotto have a business.
So like that's why I sayconsultant, this kind of came in
reverse, if that makes senseno-transcript.
Fonz (06:52):
We help the students succeed, because that is your
goal in mind.
What was that reaction frompeople around your district?
Ken Patterson (06:59):
So I don't know that anybody expected that level
of success and, I'll be honestwith you, I don't think anybody
expected I wasn't know thatanybody expected that level of
success and, I'll be honest withyou, I don't think anybody
expected I was expecting it, butI was willing to try anything
right, like I felt like if I'min the position, particularly as
someone who has had greatexperiences and has had
challenging experiences inschool, if I'm in the position
to make some sort of adifference, I'm going to do that
(07:20):
.
And so I used it.
And what happened was I startedexperimenting with ChatGPT,
really as a first year principal.
Having only been a assistantprincipal for one year, you have
to understand I'm like I had tolearn it.
And so I said, well, let me getChatGPT to help me.
I knew that it was.
They were.
When the internet first came in,when AI first came out, they
were advertising it as likeoptimization, you know, and all
(07:42):
that.
So I said, well, I can optimize, like my home businesses or
something like that, so I canlearn principle.
And then when I clicked, I waslike, whoa, wait a minute, wait
a minute, I can bring it here.
And so I started like justdoing all the data analysis and
my staff is on board, like ifyou're a first year teacher and
you have never taught you like,and all I got to do is show up
every day and you can do all mydata work.
So you're like, and all I gotto do is show up every day, you
(08:03):
can do all my data work.
All of my leaders.
I had to use them and I wasdoing their work, essentially
because I was getting successand I was early reaching out to
like other principals and otherfriends and they were like oh,
oh.
At first it was really like youdon't touch that, we don't know
, we don't get in trouble.
So I was like let's go use it.
So if you know about AI, it'suse cases, right, and it's
(08:28):
actually technology in reverse.
I literally needed like a fifthyear principal to just tell me
some stuff right, like I couldhave.
They could wipe the floor cleanwith me on AI, but I'm here
just like.
So I had to borrow use casesfrom my own team.
So, like all the leaders themath leader, the reading leader
I'm just.
I said I'm doing data analysis.
They're like are you?
(08:48):
Yes, I am, I'm learning AI,right.
So I would do the data analysisand we flipped it to where,
instead of them coming togetherin that collaborative planning
and just doing data analysis, no, when they came together in
collaborative planning, theanswers were already the data
was already analyzed.
Now it's like, how do we applythis?
And they were like, oh my gosh,this was so like you know.
(09:09):
So that developed and developedto where nobody was doing
anything but being with kids Ifit took you away from kids, give
it to me is what I said.
I had a secret weapon.
I mean, in that time it was afree chat at GBT.
You had to prompt it, you hadto give it an identity and all
that, and so that that did it,and so so, to fast forward, we
were I'm a process guy, right,like I knew that data and all
(09:31):
that in the school systems.
Like I don't, I'm an integrityand process guy.
You just show up every day,work hard and do right, do
absolutely right by kids.
Everything else will take careof itself.
And so it happened and I wassharing some stuff with other
principals because, you know,I'm like use this, use this, use
this.
Everybody was afraid, everybodywas afraid.
(09:52):
So the initial reaction wasgreat job, like I got emails
from the State Department and,like you know, superintendent
had like shouted me out andeverything.
But when it kept going, like Ithink people were like wait a
minute, like this guy's excitedand he won't shut up about it
and he's just because I couldn'tunderstand why people just
wouldn't use it Like it's free.
It's free, I will.
And then the custom GPTs cameout.
Fonz (10:10):
Right.
Ken Patterson (10:11):
Like.
I'm like I will create you whatit's free.
It's free, no.
So that was it.
That was a crisis for mebecause I think at that time I
realized education wasn't readyand there was a lot that went
bad.
Honestly, that I don't know.
I don't blame anybody, but Ithink we are so accustomed to I
(10:32):
mean, it's a hundred yearinstitution, right Like we.
We are not even aware of whatwe have been ingrained in and
what we push out and what we do.
It's just autumn.
So a lot of it was that, but itwas a brutal like it was, you
know.
So I became a consultant, youknow, and then it was weird
because I'm trying to tellprincipals to use it.
It's like he's selling freestuff, like that's I was.
It was like it's not free.
(10:53):
It's chat, tvt, it's free.
Well, if it's free, you'reprobably trying to get money.
On the other end, we know aboutfree samples.
We go to Costco's and we knowwhat a free sample is.
You're trying to get rid of it.
I'm not Like, how do you sell?
I did not, I did not sell it.
I just I wanted you to have it,I wanted you to have, I wanted
(11:17):
to see what.
Honestly, okay, if I'm beinghonest, I wanted to see what
somebody who had been aprincipal for longer could do
with it, like I had run out ofstuff to do, so I wanted just to
see what other people could dowith it so I could get more
ideas.
I wasn't thinking about money,so I was like make money, make
money.
I was like, no, no, no.
So that was the crisis.
And then I said, well, let mecharge a little bit.
And then when I charged, it waslike, oh, he's trying to make
money.
We knew he was just trying tomake money no-transcript.
Fonz (11:56):
Sometimes I feel that it's a mixed bag.
Where it's, the teachers aredriving it, but the tech
departments maybe don't evenknow that this is being used,
and so it's all over the place,many places, and I know that
there's a lot of people withthat enthusiasm that are like,
well, if you haven't been usingit, you're missing out and
you're hurting kids and you'redoing this.
And I was like, well, there'salso the other side that's like,
(12:20):
hey, you know what?
We just want to be verycautious, we want to make sure
that what is being put out andwhat is being used is something
that is going to be beneficialand ethical.
And, of course, you take all ofthose considerations and then
you've got, like you said, thespeedboats that are no, no, no,
move fast, break things, don'tworry about it, we'll take care
of it.
And I'm more kind of like in themiddle and like I people on the
show, you know, just being avery cautious advocate, where
(12:43):
sometimes I'll see the news andI'm like, all right, like yes,
okay, this is going to help usmove forward.
And then all of a sudden,something happens and it's like,
oh, you know, let me kind oflike, okay, let's, let's slow it
down and maybe it's just meoveranalyzing things, but that's
why I love having theseconversations, because I get to
amplify so many voices and somany experiences here, including
your own, which I think issomething that is very
(13:03):
attractive to have a principalor former administrator using
this and showing the successthat they had, but then also
getting your perspective thatwhen you go out there and you
visit with administrators peoplethat were in the same roles,
doing very similar things andare not you know that they're a
(13:23):
little, very cautious, or maybeoverly cautious, in seeing what
this might be able to do forthem, like it did for you.
So I want to ask you now, fromthat moment on in 2022 to 2025,
how are you feeling about AI andwhat it is that you're seeing
through now that you're aconsultant?
In that consulting perspective,are there still a lot of people
(13:45):
holding out and, through yourexperience, what might be some
of the main reasons that they'reholding out?
Ken Patterson (13:53):
So I'm going to, I'm going to be, I'm going to
shock you, right, like I'm goingto be honest, right, so you.
So, so it's in reverse, thepeople who are holding out and
they're holding out because theydon't understand it or don't
really see what it is, and allthat If they are genuinely doing
that, they are in the perfectposition, and I mean this is
(14:14):
going to be the wildest thing.
Educators as a, as an industry,and not even industry education
as as all of us, right, we arethe most beautiful humans, like
the absolute most beautifulhumans.
We internally care about kidsand want to protect them.
So something, and I will tellyou this, something on the like,
(14:35):
some intuition if you really docare about kids and you really
are good at what you do, you,you Did, you would not have
jumped on, or, if you did, itwould have been reluctantly
because it was presented wrong.
And this is the issue.
This is what I was afraid of,right, the dirty, dark, little
secret.
If I'm being honest with you,the year after I had all that
(14:56):
success, it was total failure,right, let me be honest, right,
and that's what made drove myguilt to be honest with you,
made drove my guilt, to behonest with you, and that's what
drove me like on this mad rushto make sure that everybody
because I felt like I had I knewwhat the issue was and I didn't
want it to to progress.
And here's what the issue was.
The first year, ai, I saw it asan adult thing.
(15:18):
Right, I saw it as dataanalysis because I saw I still
see teachers as the gifts of theworld to education.
So I use it to get everythingout of the way of teachers.
Teachers did not use ai.
Like we had some ai stuff.
They would come and like dolessons here and there.
The older teachers like theyactually the seasoned teachers,
like the five or six I had, likethat were really seasoned, were
(15:38):
actually using it to bring theyounger teachers up to speed,
like so it was an adult thing.
Definitely the kids don't haveit.
The next year, like we did geta grant from the district and
they gave us a bunch of money touse it and so I gave it to the
teachers to put inside theclassrooms and they were doing
all the wonderful things.
They were up, you know, theywere fortnighting lessons and
things like that.
But my data went way in thetrash and I was I panicked.
(16:01):
I said what is what is this?
It dawned on me at the time atleast, that AI is very abstract.
It's math.
It's basically math with words,right.
So it's very abstract in how itpresents things, but it does
not present as pedagogy.
As a teacher, our standards arealigned and they're like things
(16:22):
that are connecting standardsthat we are not even aware of.
So if you are a new teacher,yes, you could punch in
something and a lesson comes outin 17 seconds, but it may be
missing a key that went to thestandard two days before or
standard back there.
It's basically a hotspot.
So the kids knew that one plusone was two, but because the
common core and because some ofthis other stuff is more
(16:45):
conceptual in learning, while AIis abstract, my kids knew one
plus one was two, but when thetest came out and they had to
draw the relationship betweennumbers, they did not do it and
my teachers did not do it.
So it was a mismatch with kids,at least in elementary.
I was like crap and then Ifigured I know why it is.
It is about.
It's about collaboration andsynthesis.
(17:07):
So they were too young, theywere still learning, like the
kids have to learn the thing.
The synthesis, without AI, forus, comes in middle school.
Right, we're working in groupsin middle school.
High school, we're puttingpapers together by college,
we're doing research.
That's the synthesis adds asyou go up Elementary, I was like
oh no, so that really was thedanger.
(17:28):
And so I saw that that's wherethe entirety of K-12 started.
So in the summertime I was likeno, I was crashing out, as the
kids would say on Facebook, andthe principals groups like hey,
you guys got to use this.
No, no, I saw the teachers runinto it and it to me that the
teachers are kids at all, butit's like they're going to do ed
(17:51):
tech stuff with it.
Like, principals, please,superintendents, I was yelling,
I was screaming, anybody wouldlisten and everybody was silent.
But the teachers were runningwith and I was like no, no, no,
no.
So that was the painful partfor me in the summertime, like.
But what I had to realize is itwas really an issue of control.
I can't control that, right,like, I wanted to be one man
(18:12):
that like had the answer, youknow, but I couldn't control it,
so I just tried.
So then I kept trying to getinto systems.
Right, edna Bay came and I'mhelping systems out.
But what was happening is theother thing about ai it has to
land for all of us at the sametime and then we apply it
differently.
It's not core.
So if edivate was getting these, we were getting contracts
(18:34):
right.
But it's like if I just go andwork with your special education
department and just use aithere, it's going to offset,
it's going to throw everythingoff, like it's I'm actually
hurting adoption, like at somepoint it's going to come back
and hurt, and so I.
So I had that crisis and, andwhat happened recently, which is
great is is now a couple ofschool districts are like hey,
(18:55):
we get it, let's go, let's do itas a district.
Everybody does it together.
Now we apply it differently,but it makes teachers humans
again.
Right, because now teachersit's basically knowledge.
In reverse, they haveeverything they need.
So the teachers have alwaysbeen a gift.
They've always been a gift.
Now it's us getting out oftheir way.
It's what I did with it thefirst year Get out of the
teacher's way, shut the door,let them do what they do, and we
(19:18):
use AI to do all the dataanalysis and all that stuff like
that.
So now I'm full circle becauseI see I think it's picking up.
I think it's picking up, Ithink people are getting it.
Ed tech is not out of thepicture.
It's just that ed tech, liketeachers, kind of moved to
aiding.
Right, we're aiding, assistingmore so than dominating, and I
(19:43):
think that identity is what edtech has to take in order to
really, like you know, berelevant in the new era, right?
So we want teachers to reallybe autonomous and we really
believe in teachers.
We've got to let them be them.
That that that's that to me,that's.
I hope that helped a little bit.
I know, yeah, yeah, no, no, no,of course.
Fonz (19:58):
Which kind of leads me to to my next question and, just to
be open and honest, I followyou on LinkedIn and, of course,
on LinkedIn I did see a post youknow you posted up recently I
saw it yesterday and it gained alot of traction and it really
just highlights the concernsabout edtech platforms just
repackaging, you know,themselves, you know, and just
(20:20):
really taking those chat, GPT,AI models and again talking
about those wrapper platformsand so on.
So I want to ask you, you knowwhat are your thoughts on that?
You know, right now we'retalking, you know how you use
ChatGPT on its own, but, as youknow, you know, there are
several platforms out there,very popular ones, that are just
(20:40):
really full on.
Ken Patterson (20:42):
Can I call them out?
I'm going to call them out.
I'm going to call them out.
I don't owe nobody anything tokids.
I'll kids all right, let me justsay right, I'm sorry.
I let me just say rapper sites,that the okay.
Let me, let me say it this way,that to me, integrity is first.
Integrity is first I, I, when Isay rapper sites, it is okay to
(21:06):
say we use chat, gbt and we'remaking it easier for you as a
teacher, because it's a lot oflearning curve.
But here's what water is, wateris H2O, like that's water, we're
ice, right, we're the icecompany, right, and if that's
how we teach, so if I don't makethat absolutely clear, there's
a little bit of deception to me.
(21:27):
Like you've got to beabsolutely clear, especially for
teachers.
They're exhausted.
I've been a principal.
Like they're exhausted, I dideverything I could do to help
them out.
They're exhausted.
They don't deserve to have tolook at fine print, they don't
deserve to have to do that.
So you've got to be honest.
So in me I was giving for free,I was literally for free,
(22:06):
no-transcript.
But when you don't tellteachers who are being
introduced for the first time toan LLM what an LLM actually
factually, without question, is,to me that's the beginning of
deception and I can't trustnothing else that happens.
Now.
Rapper sites are great if it'slike you know, like I go to
(22:29):
7-Eleven.
I don't know, you know I go to7-Eleven because I don't feel
like cooking.
So you know, I know that, likethey, probably, you know, I'm
probably paying three times orwhatever, but they're honest
about it, right?
So, uh, educate, I know thatyou, I know that I'm not.
I get paid nothing from nobody.
I want to be very, very clear.
(22:52):
I am talking about integrityversus not integrity.
Thomas I talked to, like I callhim T squared, t squared, tom
Tom.
So they.
What I loved about them, whatwarmed my heart, was that they
are very clear about what it is.
They are like this is an LLM,this is chat GBT or this is
(23:12):
whatever.
This is what we do to help you.
We are in, we are in educationand we're going to make it easy,
we're going to make the bridgeeasier for you to move into this
.
There is no, no question as towhat's going on.
Every time I was on theinternet, people who were part
of like magic school I'm goingto call them out magic school
and I'm only being fair becauseI reached out to them several
times.
I went off the last couple ofdays because somebody inboxed me
(23:36):
and said I was doing it forclicks and likes and that is low
.
That is low.
So EduAid spends a lot of timebeing very honest about what
they are and what they do.
And I can, I don't when Ifigure that out.
I just I left them alonebecause I can trust anything
that they do at this point,right, like what.
On the flip side, if youobscure that, because teachers
(23:57):
don't know what LLMs are, theydon't know what AI is, they
don't understand that, likeyou're really just prompt, pre
prompting, I'm just literallypre prompting.
They don't understand it, butthey could appreciate it if
you're honest.
So there are a lot of sites.
I don't even know all the AIsites, but if AI sites are
honest about what they are andwhat they do and they are really
giving you their expertise tounlock your expertise and they
(24:20):
are closing that bridge andfixing that bridge for you,
that's perfect.
I think that's perfect.
I think that's perfect, likebecause I think it's perfect
because AI is personalized.
But if I have to hide orpretend or obfuscate or say,
well, sometimes we use this,sometimes we use that, we can't
do that Like, we can't do that,right, you can't do that.
So that to me that hurtsteachers.
That assumes that they are notintelligent.
(24:41):
It takes advantage of what theydon't know instead of helping
them understand, and we don'thave any place for that in the
field of education.
Ed tech is going to be strong inthis new era right, because ed
tech still has this place.
But if ed tech wants to slideover it and pretend to be
something, that's going to be aproblem, right, but there may be
some AI.
Ai gives you an opportunity tobe more specialized, even right.
(25:06):
So I see AI sites for, like,the revolutionary war right,
like you know, you might go tothis.
You know it gives you a chanceto be specialized.
But you have to be honest.
We are missing integrity and itwas not our fault, it was
allowed.
Our entire nation is goingthrough the same thing right now
.
Right, we're just a microcosm.
Be honest.
We have to be true, because allof that has torn us apart.
(25:29):
It has been things that havebeen hidden and the bureaucracy
and all that stuff.
Thankfully, I think it's goingaway.
But if we're in ed tech, it'sgot to be about honesty and
truth.
No one should be confused aboutwhat we have behind the scenes.
A rapper's side is fine, aslong as they know that, hey, I
can go right to magic school andget a recipe for my dinner
tonight right in that secondgrade English slot.
(25:50):
Teachers didn't know that andwhen I would say that, they
would tell me that I'm wrong.
So I said you don't, that meansthey're not, it's not being
clear to them or it will bedeleted, like, like there was
some other stuff going on.
So I reached out, cause I saidyou know, I know that a deal
wouldn't do this, like maybe hedoesn't know whatever.
I reached out, I reached outand I got it's the swarm.
The swarm came and the swarm tome, honestly, are.
(26:12):
I think those educators are,are great people, like, like,
anybody who wants to innovate,to fix education is a great
human.
But I think that they may havebeen misled.
Also, they don't know.
I'm waiting for the day thatwe're just all honest with each
(26:33):
other and our teachers are ableto be special with kids and we
can get out of their way.
That's what it is, yeah.
Fonz (26:40):
And that brings me also to listening to you to where I
have been, even since 2022,.
What happened for me was that Iwas taking a doctoral course
and the 2022, that November, hadjust come out Chad GPT.
I was playing around with it.
I was like, oh my gosh, this isamazing.
(27:00):
And then I had to do researchon AI and I'm talking about, you
know, from 2020 on, you knoweven prior to that.
And then, when I got to thesection of learning what data
rentiership is, is all that data, everything that they collect,
what they do really essentiallyis they're you know, that's how
they're making money.
You know a lot of the platformsand that's why they said if
(27:23):
it's free, then you are theproduct.
And many times we do not get alot of clarity in the terms of
service as far as how this isgoing to be used, how those
clicks are going to be used, howthe student data is going to be
used.
They always you know they andthey do their due diligence in
wording it, and I know that youknow many say like, well, we put
(27:45):
guardrails on this.
My stance sorry, real quick mystance has always been how can
you put guardrails on somethingthat you don't own, you're
plugging in to something elseother than your programmers,
saying, if this, don't do thatand then just to you know kind
of control that output.
So yeah, that's where I'm at onthat.
(28:07):
And the knowledge cutoff datestoo on a lot of platforms that
I've seen it in some, wheretheir knowledge cutoff date is,
you know, 2023.
We're already 2025.
Now they either haven't updatedtheir terms of service and
privacy or maybe that's reallywhere they're at, you know.
So there's still a lot of stuffthere that for me, I want to
(28:27):
cheer them on, but when I readthose things I'm like I don't
know if I'm there yet.
You know I'm seeing it.
But again, that transparencyand being open about it
sometimes, that that is whereI'm kind of like in the middle
all the time and just verycautious.
Ken Patterson (28:44):
And you should be like.
So I think, I think so.
We need the like, the ones thatrun out front.
Right, that's me.
Right, I'll.
The first time I hear aboutsomething, I'm running after it,
I don't care, right, like, youneed people like that, but you
also need to listen to peoplelike that.
That that's the other issue.
Right, you got to listen tothem because if they they've had
some success, I startedrealizing something was off.
(29:04):
When you're asking me for data,and I gave you the data that it
didn't matter, right, like,like, like, what, what else do
you?
I said I started with the datathat the school system is
failing.
That's the data I started with.
Like, I don't need any otherdata, then we're failing, right,
and so.
So there was a little bit morelike I was starting to learn a
little bit that didn't know.
And education, and you know this, in education, the layers are
(29:28):
thick in between.
So teachers really don't knowwhat goes on in the second layer
.
Principals, really, I'll tellyou, do not know what's going on
above them, right, like I oweno one but kids.
So when I talk, I'm telling thetruth.
So they don't know.
And that's by design, right,that's by design.
So.
So what was happening was now.
If you see me looking down atteachers, looking at them, now I
(29:49):
see, knowing what I know, ai.
They're not getting directionand they are trying their
hardest.
Like I'm not trying to be likeemotional, but like these
teachers are trying theirhardest.
Man like and I know what it isand every teacher that has left
these teachers are not badpeople like.
They left because they cared.
So if you have any likehesitation, it's probably
because something in your soulsays this is not it.
(30:11):
This something is off aboutthis.
Right are lots of things thatcan be in the way of success
(30:33):
that are intentionally placedthere Data privacy if you know
anything about AI, you just cutand paste the internet policy
that you had, right.
You don't need to do much morethan that.
And, as a matter of fact, ifyou don't clarify that you're
using a wrapper site, then youget the opposite, because then
(30:53):
teachers trust an AI site that'sthird party because they think
in their brain we've beenlooking at the educational site
for our entire careers.
You don't know, if you don'ttell them the truth, they'll put
more information in AI justbecause they.
I hope that makes any sense,but it's just by doing it the
opposite, you're hurting theteachers.
They have already gone throughenough.
(31:13):
They've gone through enough,like, stop it.
So what I think we have to havea discussion about and I think
it's fair is, if we're honest,that's how I know when that
magic school thing happened.
That's how I know when thatmagic school thing happened.
That's how I know people arenot being honest.
If we're honest about dataprivacy, you would have checked
that already.
If you're marching around hereas an AI ethicist, ai governance
, whatever you would have known,or unless you don't know AI,
(31:36):
either you don't know AI or youwould have known that that is
not a safeguard.
And why are we guardinganything?
We should be guarding thingsaway from kids.
Today I saw for the first timeand I'm going to shout after I
say this.
Today I saw for the first timeand it warmed my heart and I'm
trying not to be emotional man,like, like.
I'm passionate.
I'm passionate because becauseI know in my community, as a
(32:00):
minority I'll be honest with youI know what not having access
can do and perpetuity, right.
I know what not having accesscan do in perpetuity, right.
I know what not having accesscan do, and so I felt that this
was intentional.
And so today I saw it was aneducator in Africa and he said,
like he's a proud gatekeeper.
And I immediately was like, no,no, the gatekeeper, because I
(32:23):
had been trying.
Nobody was giving Ken anyattention.
Right, because I know what itis now.
Now, it's because Ken was notin it for anything wrong.
I was in it for you, right solike.
You can't have Ken around ifyou're trying to steal money
from people, right so like.
But this guy called gatekeeper.
I was like, no, thegatekeeper's kept Ednavate out.
So I almost like, in that worldthey see gatekeeping as
(32:47):
protection, protecting the kidsfrom the bad stuff.
That's the gate they keep InAmerica.
It seems like the gate we'rekeeping is protecting the bad
stuff from the good people.
And so when he said that hesays I'm a proud gatekeeper, I
got it.
I got it.
We need gatekeepers, the realones, the ones that make sure
(33:07):
that teachers should not have toread fine print.
They should not have to feellike they're going to get in
trouble.
If they do, they don't evenneed, they don't need the ed
tech.
They need, like, the honest edtech because you need kids, you
need to be able to see if kidsare learning, yes, but they
don't deserve to have to siftthrough more paperwork to figure
out what they, what they couldput in there, what they can't
(33:37):
they, they don't do that.
That's why I said and this is itenterprise when I, when I put
out the um, the evidence ofthings unseen, or the evidence
of things not, saying that was aa new era of framework for
education based on what I knowis truth.
I, I don't.
I know it's truth, I don't, Iknow it's truth.
And what it does is it it?
It builds the teacher.
We have so much talent outsideof the field of education that
just simply could not stand onemore day of their dignity being
(33:59):
ripped apart.
Right, and we've, we've pushedthem out and we've made them
look bad.
They may be the best, the bestforce.
Right, they may be the bestforce out there.
So the ones that are remaining,that are holding on tight, you
don't lie to them, you do nottake advantage of them and stop
treating them like children.
So, when the AI policies andgovernance and all these people
are marching around with it,that was I had been with kids as
(34:23):
a principal.
I, every day, I had to shieldmy teachers from stuff I knew
did not make sense.
I would get in trouble.
Actually, I won't get introuble because this is all fake
.
I will not get in trouble.
You're not getting rid of me.
I knew that all I had to do waslove my babies, and if I loved
them babies, the parents wouldstand up for me.
I knew that.
So if there was something thatdidn't make sense, that robbed
(34:45):
teachers of dignity, I did notbring it to my building.
I did not bring it to mybuilding, and all I want is that
for the entirety of education.
And so when I see these things,when I see things like data
privacy and this and that, andoh, we got to do governance, we
got to put guardrails, we got todo all that, I feel like it's
limiting.
(35:05):
I feel like it's intentionallylimiting, because none of these
words occur in other countriesand none of these words are
priorities in private schools inour own nation.
Let teachers be human, use AIto clear the forest and let them
shut their doors and be great.
That's what AI is for.
I'm sorry.
Fonz (35:27):
That is very well stated and very well said.
I'm passionate man.
No, no, no, and that's great,and that's what we love here,
and that's what I love aboutdoing this show is the fact that
it's I am right in the middleand I give equal time to both
sides, and, again, it's just tocontinue these conversations.
Sometimes, you know, maybethere's somebody there like like
(35:50):
I reached out to you because ofwhat you shared and I was like
I gotta have ken, because I needsomebody that is again like you
right now, that it has nothingto fear, and you're just being
open and honest with yourobservations because, like we
were talking right now, evenmyself, in my current role and
in any role, it's like there arevery few and many people know
(36:12):
this, and I've talked to thosepeople and I said that there are
probably just a handful ofplatforms or apps that I will
directly stand behind because oftheir openness, transparency,
genuineness, authenticness andauthenticity, I should say, and
about them and what they'redoing, and that they're very
open about it.
There are many other apps, too,where I'm just like, well, I'll
(36:35):
say I've seen stuff that comesup.
You know, sometimes it's like,hey, I got this weird answer.
This student got this weirdanswer and I was like, well,
this shouldn't be happening.
You know why should a teacherhave something else to worry
about on their plate when theyput this application on there
and the student gets a wronganswer or something that is
harmful or gets, you know, evena lot of the image creators.
(36:58):
When you type in certain wordsthere still hasn't been a fix
for that images, we, even when Itry to create myself and then I
put their stocky Hispanic male,it always puts me with a beard
and a mustache, you know, andI'm like, and that's because I
put like, no beard, no mustache,and I always look the same, you
(37:20):
know.
So it's a lot of those thingsthat I'm concerned about, and
worried about because, yeah,maybe some people, and sometimes
I think like, am I overthinkingthis?
But no, it's like you're sayingthat intuition that I feel like
, wait a minute, like this isn'twhere it needs to be yet.
So maybe we need to hold off abit on that and let's see which
ones are really working and aredoing like you said.
Ken Patterson (37:41):
So you're right, you're right.
But here's where we lean in.
It's opposite, it's everythingin reverse.
This is I tell teachers and Itell educators, literally
everything in reverse,everything in reverse.
That's my, that's my thing.
That slipped your thinking.
Just just try, just flip yourthinking.
They're large, I call themlarge learning models, but
they're large language models.
(38:02):
I'll use L for learning just tokind of give teachers
understanding that it does learnright.
So it also wants to be corrected.
It can be corrected.
I had the same issue you had.
I typed in on a Father's Day.
I said good father tying a tiefor a black son.
And it was a white dad tying atie for a black child, Not that
white, that's not what I'msaying.
It's just assume that goodfather meant white male, and if
(38:26):
a son needed a tie to be tied,it's a black male.
So because at first I saidfather tying, you know, good
father tying tie, and it was toowhite.
Then I said no, black son.
Then it was a white father,black son.
I said it didn't even put thetwo together, you know.
So as you use it and you fix itand you do that, we need to lean
in, because the more we lean in, the more it's learning.
It learned what we had put inin the beginning.
(38:52):
So everything that we gave itwas a snapshot of who we were.
If we want to be better now, weshould see it being better.
Like you may put something inLos Angeles, I may put something
in Maryland, if we're bothfixing chat, gpt and correcting
no, not that, no, not that.
This it's learning andcollectively we're building it.
So, really, if you think aboutit in reverse and this is this
(39:12):
sounds really crazy, I know, butwe almost can tell how much
better we are as a society ifeverybody's using it and we're
seeing better outputs, becauseit's going to do what it's
learning from us right now.
It's it's.
It has what we had.
It has what we were.
That's why we have to use it,and educators especially have to
use it, because we might haveit.
We're actually the ones youthink the robots are teaching
(39:32):
the kids.
No, we need to teach the robots.
They're not robots, by the way.
We need to teach them and weneed to teach the kids right so
that when they use it, it'sbuilding the LLM the right way.
It's building the right way.
Fonz (39:44):
And that kind of brings me to, kind of my last question,
as we kind of start wrapping up.
I want to ask you, you know,for you, how can we better this
education scape, you know, asfar as the collaboration with,
maybe, teachers and ed techcompanies, you know, should
(40:06):
there be?
You know, I think many timesit's there, there's companies
that have been started byeducators, but then, at the same
time, it's like there's somethat haven't and are still being
put out there and maybe theydon't have that experience and
they give you what they thinkthe teacher wants.
So, for you, what might yoursuggestions be as far as your
perspective?
(40:26):
What do we need to do to makethis better?
So, what?
Ken Patterson (40:30):
I've thought a lot about this, right?
So the reason why and you'vegot to look at that framework
the reason why that framework isso complete and so pure is I
sat as a principal.
I, that is a.
That is a very unique positionbecause you know everything,
like.
You know how everything works.
You don't know what they'redoing because things are hit,
(40:52):
but I, I can 100 tell you what afriday school lunch in
elementary school has to do withthe budget at the top, right?
So that's what ai actually does.
So, to begin, there cannot beany silo discussions, right?
That's the issue that startedit, where teachers ran to it
because they heard it's notgoing to take your job.
Ai is going to take your job.
(41:14):
It's somebody who uses AI.
Whatever the saying is.
I was looking like no teachers.
You guys deal with kids.
You're never losing your job.
Anybody that tries to put robotsin a classroom is going to fail
.
It's going to fail, right, theytried something somewhere else
is going to fail.
So what we need to do is itneeds to be, always need to be
diverse groups.
That's the point of AI.
Ai is trying to pretend to becollaboration.
(41:38):
That's what it's pretending tobe.
Every piece of technology ispretending to be something.
We just did not know what AIwas pretending to be, because we
do not collaborate, we don'thave like, we don't naturally do
that anymore.
The internet is fastcommunication between computers.
Ai is like internet in 3D it'scollaborating with information.
Ai is what you don't even need.
(41:59):
I kept saying AI is that techand people are like.
This guy is weird.
It's not tech.
I bet you're figuring it outnow.
Ai is what happens when wecollaborate.
When three people get togetherand start sharing ideas, all of
a sudden, it seems like we allget smarter.
Or when I was a ap, my joke wasI was a seventh grade assistant
principal and I had three kidsin detention that were like I
was like, no, they should not betogether.
They're going to be verycreative.
(42:20):
What happened?
So we have to start by being um,collaborative, but everything
in reverse.
The teacher is now the boss.
We've, we've, we've hurt themenough.
We've hurt them enough and I amunapologetic about that and
anybody who does not see it thatway.
You can absolutely probablywork backwards and see that they
are still waiting to maintaincontrol and treat teachers like
(42:41):
kids.
The teachers are the bosses now, right?
So what we need to do is figureout what they want right.
Edtech has tried.
Edtech has been in the worstsituation.
Right, they pay for it, but theteachers use it and they don't.
Edtech knows where the gaps areright.
So EdTech is like you know.
We built this thing but theteacher needs to be the boss.
(43:02):
Whatever the teacher wants iswhat the teacher gets.
Everybody else needs to moveout of the way.
And if we don't do that, I willleak all of the secrets going
up, because none of that reallymatters.
If the teacher isn't in charge,anything up there that we're
doing that doesn't serve theteacher means that we don't want
them with the kid.
We gotta move everything out ofthe way so the teacher and the
(43:22):
child can be together.
And our start in conversation iswith teachers say what do you
need?
What can I do?
They know more than we everwill.
I learned that in my classroom.
I told that to my teachers whenI was a principal.
I don't know fifth grade ELA.
I won't even pretend to knowfifth grade ELA.
You are the fifth grade ELA.
You got a master's in reading.
I'm not trying to be that.
I can help you connect withthat kid.
(43:43):
What can I do to serve you?
What can I do?
What data can I give you thatwill help you out in your
classroom?
That's what happened.
We need to start with theteacher.
They are the boss.
We owe them.
We have hurt them.
We have hurt them.
We have hurt them.
We have hurt them.
They are the boss, and then weask them what they want and when
that happens, we all get aroundthem and we figure out.
So they leave and go back withkids.
(44:03):
Then we sit around and figureout how to put into action what
they asked us to do.
Fonz (44:11):
That is fantastic.
Thank you so much for thatperspective, ken.
Thank you so much for today too, as well, like everything that
you shared, your passion, yourauthentic voice, your
genuineness I mean, like I said,this is I'm thankful that we
were able to make thisconversation happen, and I
really do appreciate your shares, ken, thank you so much.
(44:35):
But before we wrap up, I alwayslove to end the show with the
last three questions.
So, ken, hopefully you areready.
So, as you know, everysuperhero has a point of
weakness or something thatweakens him.
So, for example, superman,kryptonite kind of weakened him.
So I want to ask you, ken, inthe current state of education,
what would be your current edukryptonite?
Ken Patterson (44:57):
So I'm going to flip it, man, what was a
kryptonite?
And the old may be our strengthand the new right.
So, before I would say, mykryptonite is this passion, this
excitement.
Like I get riled up because Ilove kids and so, you know, in
the old system we're supposed tobe controlled, maintained,
right.
Can't be like that.
(45:18):
Now, I don't know, I got to beme, like, let me be me Right.
So my kryptonite was, wasreally that I get passionate and
that passion sometimes goesbefore me.
So so that is something I stillhave to work on, right.
So, like you know, I do have to.
Just because I grabbed AI andran with it and it was the best
(45:38):
thing since sliced bread thefirst day I touched it, I have
to know that, just like I wanteverybody to be themselves, I
have to be patient with peoplewho are being themselves.
I can't interpret that becausethey're not.
You know, after I did it longenough, I realized that they're
actually being wise about it.
Right, I'm not.
That's when I think I'm not.
I'm going to jump into it andjump out of it if it hurts, but
(45:58):
I think for me it's learningjust what I want.
Seeing that I am also not doingthat sometimes when I'm driving
AI because of the benefits,when you've got to give people a
chance to it's an adjustment.
So that's for me.
That's my education at CryptKnight.
So if I'm excited, it's notbecause I'm passionate, that's
all.
I'm not trying to push anybodydown the road anymore.
Fonz (46:19):
Love it, love it.
Great answer, ken.
I appreciate it All right.
Question number two Ken, if youcould have a billboard with
anything, on it.
Ken Patterson (46:32):
What would it be and why?
Tell the truth, tell the truth,truth wins.
Tell the truth.
And the reason?
Because once truth is here,then we all can live free, right
.
We all can be free, right.
Nobody's hiding anything.
We can trust, because if youtrust, you move fast, right.
And no one needs us to trustmore than people who work with
kids, because because they aredependent on us.
(46:53):
So I'm going to say tell thetruth, um, be truthful, be open,
be honest, um, even if peopledon't agree with it.
But we've got to be able totrust each other because kids
are at stake love it.
Fonz (47:02):
Great answer, all right.
And last question if you couldtrade places with anyone for a
day, anyone, who would it be andwhy?
Ken Patterson (47:23):
I didn't think you would ask me this man.
It was a five-year-old kid thatI had I was a principal and it
was a five-year-old kid that Ihad that I was a principal, and
it was a five-year-old kid, andthe system was trying to make me
not give the kid what theyneeded.
And if I could trade placesbecause I haven't seen him since
I've been gone I would tradeplaces with him so I could be
(47:44):
five again and have fun awayfrom all this.
That's why I do this.
I'm sorry that I I'm sorry, butif I could take places, it
would be with him.
They wanted me to.
It wasn't anybody individually.
It was not designed.
He has autism.
He had autism.
He was tearing the room up.
(48:04):
He's a little black boy.
All I saw was the other 19 kidssee a black boy mad.
They didn't understand he hadautism.
They just saw him throwingchairs.
So so this was a psyopsnightmare.
I I didn't see it as just a kidbeing a problem and I tried to
move him and they did try this.
You try to try that like I gothim moved, risking my life and
(48:29):
career, basically.
But I don't care.
But I want to see him again.
I want to see him again.
I would trade places with himto see if he's okay All right.
Fonz (48:37):
Thank you, ken, I really appreciate that.
And again, just the passion, Ilove it.
Thank you so much for justreally opening up and sharing
your heart, sharing yourexperience.
Like I said, this is why we dowhat we do, man just to bring
some great, honest conversations, and sometimes the
conversations may be a littledifferent than what other people
(48:58):
expect, but sometimes we got tospeak the truth.
That's right, you got to askKen about it.
Ken Patterson (49:04):
No, my kindergarten team bought me the
shirt.
It's a private gift.
Fonz (49:08):
Oh okay, there you go, I love it.
I love it.
Well, ken, before we wrap up,can you tell our audience
members who might be interestedin reaching out to you how it is
that they can connect with you?
Ken Patterson (49:18):
If you're on LinkedIn, hit me on LinkedIn.
That's the best place.
And we are building the edge ofRenaissance.
It's called the edge ofRenaissance.
So innovate is really.
We're here to help people makeit make sense for their
districts.
Right, and in a real way, anhonest way, Like we have no
product but we will direct youto products.
Who are telling the truth, wewill help you align things.
(49:39):
That's what we do, right?
So the Ednavate is kind of likeoutlines that, but hit me on
LinkedIn or go to wwwednovateLinkedIn or go to wwwednovate.
That's like educationalinnovation.
So E-D-N-O-V-A-T-E ednovateai.
Or you can email me at ken atednovateai.
So we are here, in truth, tohelp people move forward, Like
(50:02):
let's do this thing right.
That's all I want.
That's all I want.
That's all I want.
That's all I want.
Fonz (50:05):
Perfect, Piper.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate it, myfriend.
And for all our audience members.
Please make sure that you visitour website at myedtechlife,
where you will watch thisepisode.
We'll definitely make sure thatwe link all of Ken's
information his website.
That way you can go ahead andconnect with him, reach out to
him if you have any questions orif you need anything.
Just feel free to reach out,because he definitely has a
(50:28):
heart to help people, andespecially if it's something
that's going to get down to thestudents as well.
So please make sure you reachout to him and make sure that
you check out the other 315episodes that we have, where I
promise you 315 other episodeswhere I promise you you will
find a little something that youcan sprinkle onto what you are
(50:48):
already doing.
Great.
Like I mentioned to you guys atthe very beginning, we love you.
We thank you so much for all ofyour support.
Thank you so much for all thedownloads.
Thank you so much for thefollows to our sponsors.
Thank you to book creator, whois our newest partner.
Thank you to you.
Big shout out to you, to Edu8,to Yellowdig.
Thank you for believing in ourmission.
(51:11):
You will appreciate.
Yes, that's right.
Thomas Thompson, thomas, textme back.
Thomas, thomas Thompson andThomas Hummel Great people.
Make sure that you follow themtoo as well.
So thank you, my friends.
I really appreciate all of yoursupport, and until next time,
my friends, don't forget, staytechie.
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.