Episode 320: Zachary Stier & Tom Rendon

Episode Transcript
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Fonz Mendoza (00:30):
Hello everybody and welcome to another great
episode of my EdTech Life.
Thank you so much for joiningus on this wonderful day and,
wherever you are joining us fromaround the world, thank you, as
always, for all of your support.
We appreciate all the likes,the shares, the follows.
Thank you so much for engagingwith your support.
We appreciate all the likes,the shares, the follows.
Thank you so much for engagingwith our content and thank you
so much for your wonderfulfeedback, as that helps us

(00:50):
continue to bring you someamazing conversations that will
continue to help us grow in theeducation space.
And today I am really excitedto welcome a two-time guest and
a first-time guest.
You know we're gonna be talkingabout one of my favorite topics
, which is amplifying creativity, and these gentlemen have

(01:11):
written a book and I'll let themtell you a little bit more
about that.
But I would love to welcome tothe show Zachary Steer and Tom
Rendon.
How are you doing today?

Dr. Zachary Stier (01:22):
I'm doing great.
Thank you for having us Great.

Tom Rendon (01:25):
Thank you.
Thank you, fonz, appreciatebeing on the show.

Excellent.
Well, thank you so much forjoining us and, like I said,
zachary being a two-time guest,and one of the things that I do
want to reiterate to all my toanybody listening or to previous
guests, if you're listening tothis when I tell you like, hey
guys, whenever, once you're aguest of my EdTech life, you're
listening to this when I tellyou like, hey guys, once you're
a guest of my EdTech Life,you're always welcome back.
This is an example of that.

(01:50):
Like I mentioned, zachary, he'sa two-time guest and today he's
going to be talking about thiswonderful project that him and
Tom have been working on.
But before we get into the meatof the project, for those of
you that are listening and arenot familiar with Zachary's and
Tom's work just yet, I'm goingto go ahead and let them

(02:10):
introduce themselves and giveyou a little bit of context of
what they're doing in theeducation space.
So we'll start with Zachary.
Zachary, can you give us alittle introduction?

yeah, well again, thank you so much for
letting me be on as a guest, andmy background has been for well
over a decade in publiclibraries, and that's the space
that I am really excited andcontinue to be excited in
bringing forth how we look atlearning and creativity within

(02:43):
informal learning spaces such aspublic libraries.
So it's yeah, it's part of whatI do.
Obviously, I'm an author and Ido teach some courses at the
University of Illinois in theSchool of Library and
Information Science.

Excellent.
Well, thank you, zachary andTom.
Now to you, our first-timeguest.

Tom Rendon (03:15):
Give us a little brief introduction and what your
context is within the educationspace and I've written a number
of articles, resources, and nowthis is actually my second book
.
My first book was called SavingPlay, so it was all about the
importance of play in earlychildhood education and that's
really been the focus of a lotof my writing and work has been

(03:37):
around early childhood education, particularly at the level of
early childhood systems,governance, collaboration
efforts, socio-emotionaldevelopment, young children,
that kind of thing.
I'm also a consultant with twoHead Start National Technical
Assistance Centers the NationalCenter for Healthy Rural Health

(03:59):
and Safety and also the NationalCenter for Parent-Family
Community Engagement.
So that kind of keeps me alsoinvolved in things.
But in that role serving as aconsultant Excellent Well,
definitely you On lots ofsubjects.

Yeah, I was going to say both of you definitely
keep very busy and I know, Tom,I just met you recently and
Zachary, we were just having aconversation and, like I said, I
really love the work that youall put out and I'm really
excited to talk about this, andespecially you, Tom, right now
that you hit on a couple ofthings there as far as the
creativity and the play, youknow, in young children.
So the title of the book iscalled Creativity in Young

(04:37):
Children, which really goes tostraightforward and to the point
.
So I want to talk and I want toget started here with a couple
of questions.
So now you call this, you knowwhat would be something like a
journey in curiosity and aboutcreativity.
So I want to start with you,Tom.
What was the initial sparkabout this topic in curiosity,

(04:58):
you know, creative play in youngchildren and the collaboration?
How did that come about?

Tom Rendon (05:11):
Well, it actually started with Zach, so I mean he
can fill in that part of thestory.
But I think he had this idea.
I think some of it had come outof some research he had done, I
believe, for his dissertation.
And he kind of approached meand said hey, why don't we do a
presentation?
And this was right at the startof COVID.
So we had an online presentationwe put together around
creativity and sort of the roleof creativity, and you know, it

(05:34):
was sort of our kind of usdipping our toe into it, and but
I think part of what makes itmade it an adventure was and we
even say this the very firstsentence of the book is we
should not be writing this book,which seems a little
counterintuitive.
And then we talk a little bitabout why we went ahead and did
it anyway.

(05:54):
And I think the reason we didit anyway was really two driving
forces.
One was curiosity, like wereally just wanted to know more
about it.
And then, once we knew more, wekind of put that together and
said, hey, maybe some of thiswould be worth sharing with
other people.
And the other part of it, Ithink, is, you know, is courage.
Like sometimes we're afraid tospeak out because we don't feel

(06:17):
like we know enough, we're notan expert enough.
Or we look around us and say,well, this person knows much
more than I do, or this personis a much better.
Or we look around us and say,well, this person knows much
more than I do, or this personis a much better expert at this
than I am.
And yet I think anytime anybodyreappropriates or rethinks new
ideas, they kind of make ittheir own.
And that, in fact and this, Ithink, is the point I really

(06:38):
want to underscore is ourprocess of writing the book was
in fact, a creative process andin writing the book we learned
that much more about creativityand then also put that into it
and that sort of snowballingeffect is something we
discovered throughout all of ourresearch as we looked into
creativity.

Excellent.

Zachary, how about yourself?
Can you fill in some of thosegaps there?
Like Tom said that you know, asfar as seeing this project,
yeah, tom and I already kneweach other for quite a few years
, but it was during thatbaseball game that I think we
connected strongly on Mr Rogers,on Fred Rogers.
I had not known that about himand his.

(07:35):
You know his connection to, tothat world and I don't know it's
a spark just happened and, um,I left that game thinking we
need to, we need to circle backto that conversation, especially
with Mr Rogers neighborhood,because it is truly there's many
different themes in thatneighborhood, but curiosity and

(07:56):
creativity is our two strongones.
But I'm also coming from thisfrom a space of experience in
how my own learning is andhaving a learning disability,
and wanting to ensure that we'rehoning in on that
differentiated learningtrajectory, that there are many

(08:18):
ways to see the world and thereare many ways to do things
creatively, and so I wanted tobe able to investigate that and
something I will also say thatbrings, I think, strength to the
book, for you know, tom and Ibeing co-authors is our
different backgrounds, right, isyou know, in that formal

(08:39):
learning space and the informallearning space.
How do we build that bridgetogether?
Because learning and creativityis universal.
It's not confined to a specificenvironment.

I love it.
Well, this is great because itkind of gives me a little bit of
insight as far as yourperspectives and how both of you
kind of came into this projectand kind of also at the same
time, not only digging more intothe topic and learning more
about it, but through your ownindividual perspectives, also
bringing that and your voicetogether.

(09:13):
And I know, zachary and I,prior to recording, we're
talking about that storytellingprocess and how we learn and how
we share the knowledge and thelearning that we do.
And I think that the way thatI'm seeing you two connect here
your worlds and bringing thistogether to create this book is
really exciting and I'mdefinitely looking forward to

(09:35):
reading the book.
For sure.
But I did get to see a littlepreview of the book.
Thank you, zachary, for sendingme that link book too.
As well as we kind of get intothe core concepts here is in the
book you state that creativityis so critical to the way humans
grow and learn that it shouldbe at the center and not the

(10:00):
periphery of early childhoodeducation.
So I'll start with you, zach.
Can you expand on why youbelieve that creativity deserves
to be at the center of learning?

Yeah, I mean the way I see it.
Creativity, you know, connectsto a person's identity.
In that way, it's a discoveryprocess to not only those
aspects of learning, whether itbe in a classroom, at the
library, but also how you knowwhat their process is and how

(10:33):
they're seeing the world andwhat narrative they want to
share with that.
I think it really creates acatalyst for a conversation,
especially within that spacewhen individuals may I wouldn't
necessarily say frustrated, butmaybe they're confused as to why

(10:54):
they may not be, you know,connecting to a certain concept
or a certain way on how to solvesomething or complete an
activity.
But when we take the time andinitiative and we allow
ourselves to listen to thatnarrative of how someone is

(11:15):
seeing the world, how someone isable to achieve whatever
they're wanting to achieve, webegin to realize that that's
their individuality and we needto lean in on that.
And, yeah, that's how I takethat particular statement that
you had just read.

(11:36):
Excellent, tom, how about you?

Tom Rendon (11:38):
Well, I guess, just to build a little bit on what
Zach's saying, I mean, Iconsider myself to have some
amount of knowledge andexpertise in the area of child
development and interestinglyenough, I think the last chapter
we wrote in the book isactually the second chapter,

(12:00):
which is one which sort ofunpacks child development from a
perspective of creativity.
And in fact we go through someof the hallmarks of child
development, through some of thehallmarks of child development,
particularly as articulated bydevelopmentally appropriate
practices document from theNational Association for the
Education of Young Children, andthen begin to talk about the

(12:21):
connections we see between thesehallmarks of child development
and the hallmarks of and what wesee as the connections with
creativity and the creativeprocess.
And then we go back and look ata number of the pioneers of
early childhood developmenttheory, so people like Maria

(12:43):
Montessori and John Dooley andJean Piaget and Vygotsky and all
these names which earlychildhood educators are very
familiar with and sort of lookedat.
What did they say and how didwhat they said connect back to
creativity?
So that really we said thatreally needs to be front and

(13:03):
center, it needs to be in thebeginning, because it really
creates this foundation for thepoint that we made, this
foundation for the point that wemade, and that I hope that
people hear that phrase reallyas an opening of a door to begin
to rethink and re-explore,because one of the things that
we come around to in one of thelater chapters is the whole idea

(13:23):
that when people think aboutcreativity in young children and
we saw this in a number ofbooks that we looked at that
were on that very subject ofcreativity and young children
and most of those books werefocused on things like, you know
, art activities you can do withchildren and music or dance or
you know, any kind of creative,like classical creative

(13:45):
expression.
And what we wanted to say is youknow, actually creativity is
much more fundamental than that.
It connects to ourconsciousness, which means it
connects every way we are awareof the world around us and
process that world around us.
That's why it becomes sointegral to child development.
And I'll just make one lastpoint.

(14:07):
The book is you, the title isCreativity and Young Children,
but the subtitle is what ScienceTells Us and Our Hearts Know.
So it was about trying toconnect both head and heart, and
we think creativity does that.
So it becomes a sort ofunifying force, that rather we
think that, well, here arecognitive skills or here are

(14:27):
social, emotional skills andwell, actually, creativity
starts to connect all that stufftogether.
So it can, it can become kindof a unifier.
And I remember one of thelessons I learned really early
on when I was studying childdevelopment is this this sort of
whole child notion that youknow, the child doesn't come to

(14:48):
us as um, as a cognitive beingor emotional being or as a
behavioral being.
It comes all of that's together.
It's only when we analyze orlook at what a child is doing
and try to categorize or try tounderstand it that we begin to
pull it apart.
But that pulling apart in someways is unnatural.
That's not the way the childexperiences it.

(15:08):
They're experiencing all thisstuff together.
There's no interaction way.
The child experiences they'reexperiencing all this stuff
together.
There's no interaction thatdoesn't have an emotional
content or a cognitive,intellectual content.
And so that's where creativitycan become really key.

And, if it's okay, I want to pick up on
something here.
One other chapter that wefocused on was the work from Uri
Braafenbrenner, who is famousfor the ecological theory, but
what's unique about that is itwent through an evolution and he

(15:46):
then created the bioecologicalmodel, and why that's unique
within the context of creativityis connecting.
What Tom is saying is that biomeaning life, the individual,
and, you know, ecology meaningthe environment.
They equally have influence onan individual and looking at

(16:11):
things within the ecosystem inthat model demonstrates that you
know the child, let's say, isat the center, and then what's
built around that child and thatbi-directional relationship
right that everyone has aresponsibility to ensure, and
something that Tom and I foundwhich is really great is the

(16:32):
child also has significantinfluence and we need to lean in
on that as well.

Yeah, you know, and that's something that's very
important that kind of bringsto mind and into light a lot of
the things.
You know, being in educationfor 18 years, I have seen
education change, even from thetime that I was, you know,
coming up in grade school, whereI felt that I had a little bit
more opportunities to becreative while still learning.
And then all of a sudden, youknow, as you get into high

(17:02):
school and so on, you know I gotinto a lot of things as far as
creativity, you know, being inband and chess club and doing
all of those things, things asfar as creativity, you know,
being in band and chess club anddoing all of those things.
Now, kind of seeing it from theinside, you know, and being in
education for 18 years, now onething that I've noticed is that

(17:25):
that creativity kind of is nolonger there.
And I'm speaking here just formyself and I don't know if
you've experienced this in yourstate, but I know here we're
very, you know, state testingheavy, and so one thing that I
do notice is that from the fromabout third grade to about ninth
grade actually because that'swhen they stopped taking their
state tests of opportunity thatis given to a lot of students to

(17:53):
really express their creativity, because it seems like
everything is just curriculum gogo go, state testing practice
go, go, go, and we're losing alot of those creative components
and allowing students to beable to express themselves or
even express their learning in adifferent way, or even
discourse in classrooms.
So I think myself too, I kindof fall in line with what you're

(18:14):
saying is being able to allowthat creativity in the classroom
can allow me, as a teacher, toknow my students more and to
play to their strengths andallow them to learn in a way
that is still very creative,touches on their personal, I
guess, modalities of the waythat they like to express their
learning.
But as long as I get to see thatthere is content mastery, I'm

(18:37):
completely okay with it, becausethat's the way that I would run
my classroom.
I would tell my students here'sa choice board, and this I'm
talking about maybe 10 years ago, when I was last in the
classroom.
Here's a choice board.
However, you love to share yourlearning with me in a creative
way.
Here are your choices, and ifthere's something that isn't
there that you'd like to share,just let me know and I'll be
more than happy to let you do itthat way, and it was just

(19:00):
amazing how the students were soengaged.
Even my absenteeism in my classwas really low, because nobody
wanted to miss class, becauseyou allow for that creativity to
be amplified, and I thinkthat's something that is very,
very important.
That play, that discovery, thatcuriosity which I was telling

(19:20):
Zachary, growing up, as, englishbeing my second language, I
would sit there watching showslike Pinwheel, mr Rogers, square
One.
I was watching Sesame Streetand reading Rainbow and a lot of
those shows really inspired mycreativity when I was little and
just being very curious aboutthings, and I think that's

(19:42):
something that's very important.
Well, I want to ask you now theway that you broke up this book.
There is a specific sectionthat I want to talk about, which
is the seven big ideas aboutcreativity, which is part two of
the book.
So I know you've organized yourresearch into these big ideas
and I'll start with you, zachary.
Could you share which of theseideas was most or most surprised

(20:05):
you as you were doing yourresearch for the book, as you
were doing your research for thebook?
And, if you don't mind, beforeyou answer that just for our
audience members because theymay not have the book in hand
yet, which we'll definitely linkhere, in that book, but we'll
definitely link it in the shownotes so everybody can get their
copy.
But your big ideas number one iscreativity as a life force.

(20:26):
Number two, the neuroscience ofcreativity.
Number three, creativity andneurodiversity.
Number four, creativity ascurriculum.
Number five, creativity informal and informal settings.
Number six, creativity anddiversity, equity and inclusion.
And number seven creativity andtrauma.

(20:46):
As you wrote this book anddoing the research here, which
of these seven big ideas justreally just wowed you, or you
kind of went in deep and foundsomething enlightening within it
?

I knew you were going to ask a question.
That's going to be tricky, andI say tricky in a good way,
because you know there areseveral chapters that I truly
enjoyed investing in.
Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna saythis for today, where I'm at
with this, it would have to bethe last one for me and that is

(21:21):
creativity and trauma.
Um, and the reason is I'veinvested some of my work as a
children's librarian.
You know social work inlibraries has become very
prevalent.
In understanding, you know allof the challenges that
individuals face, especiallywith their lived experiences,

(21:43):
and you know, let's say, beingunhoused or food insecurity, and
you know some of transportationneeds and the like.
But diving into creativity andtrauma and knowing that you know
, based on those livedexperiences and those challenges
, that there is an impact thereI don't necessarily know if the

(22:05):
word is stifle, but whenindividuals are faced with
circumstances that can leavelasting impacts and effects, for
me, investing in that chapterwas to really dive into not only
the neuroscience, how that, youknow, can shift an individual's
understanding of themselves,the belief in themselves, and

(22:37):
that you know trauma can havelasting effects not only you
know, based on some of thosechallenging areas of equity, but
also, you know, in theirlearning and development.
And there was a lot ofcrossover in that chapter and I
was happy that we put that inthe last chapter because I I was

(23:02):
able to see a lot ofconnections, you know, and, and
that that one of the strongestconnections is what Tom alluded
to, which is, you know, head andheart as well.
So that would be mine as oftoday, would be my, one of the
strongest chapters that Ienjoyed investing in.
Excellent Thank you for sharingTom.

how about yourself ?
Well?

Tom Rendon (23:25):
I, I'm like like, like Zach, I'm going to say it's
a little bit unfair question.
It's like which of these isyour favorite child?
You know as a parent, but I'mgoing to pick a minute.
But you also added thedescriptor, of which one
surprised me the most.
And I think the one thatsurprised me the most was the

(23:48):
very first one, which iscreativity as a life force.
The most was the very first one, which is creativity as a life
force.
And I was actually in theprocess of writing the book, we
interviewed about six differentknown experts in the subject of
creativity and we interviewedthem and I was actually kind of
intrigued by this idea of thelife force and and and so I ran

(24:14):
in by one of them and he goes oh, that's what's up and that's a
bunch of nonsense, she said.
And so I said, oh, okay, youknow, and I said, well, we'll
have to be really careful withthat one.
But then the more I dug into it, the more I found that it
actually explained a lot.
And the other thing that I findagain just kind of going back

(24:37):
to this wider theme of you know,writing the book was a creative
.
We took a creative approach towrite a book about creativity
which is like, how else do youdo it?
But like so much in creativity,it was an accident that we
really stumbled across this ideaof the life force.
I was doing some research intoPIJ and beginning to try to

(25:03):
figure out, like well, what didhe say about creativity?
And because I was making theconnection between creativity as
the way in which we constructmeaning and information and
knowledge.
Well, that's very much akin toconstructivist theory, which of
course Piaget was sort of.
You know that was very solidlyin his contribution to the child

(25:25):
development field, and so I wasdoing some research on it and
discovered that actually Puget'sfirst area of study was biology
.
So he was a scientist, abiological scientist studying
life forms.

(25:54):
Quite influential was a bookcalled Creative Evolution by
Henri Bergson, who was a Frenchphilosopher around the 20th
century, and this book washighly influential at the time,
and in there he posits this ideaHenri Bergson does of what he
calls and I really like theFrench here it's élan, vital, so
vital élan, and actually élanis an English word if you look

(26:16):
it up, and it sort of meanspanache or flare.
So I just sort of enjoyedthinking about all that because
I really love words and I lovethe connotations that come out
of words, and so this idea ofthe élan vital and this vital
energy force that connectsdirectly with life itself.

(26:37):
And part of what Henri Bergsonwas doing was he was criticizing
people who had taken Darwin'sidea of evolution and saying
this is a mechanistic process.
Right, it just happens.
Natural selection is amechanistic process.
And he goes I don't think itworks that way, like it doesn't

(26:59):
seem as mechanistic as you thinkit was.
So he was actually trying tolevy a critique in it, and while
he doesn't go so far as to say,well, there must be some kind
of divine creator behind allthis, he kind of suggests that
as a possible way to explainwhat's happening.
But he breaks down exactly whathappens during that

(27:22):
evolutionary change and what hesays that makes it possible is
this life force that's in us.
And so then we really, in thatchapter, really unpack that idea
.
And of course he saw it as thekey to what evolution really is

(27:42):
about, which is creativity.
It's about the emergence of newlife through change and, as
Zach was pointing out, with ourintroduction of Uri
Brontenbrenner, with theenvironment, the environment in
fact plays a really, reallycritical role in all of that,
and so part of what we talkabout in the book, then, is what

(28:07):
happens when we, if we thinkthat children being creative is
children's life force exhibitingitself.
How does that change the way,then, that we might support
children's learning or add tochildren's learning or be better
teachers?
And I think it really comesdown to a lot of the things you
were mentioning before about howwe might need to reintroduce

(28:30):
that, and some of the rotelearning processes could get
broken open by really thinkingabout this life force.
That's why we thought it was sofundamental, because we then
could allude to it in all theother big ideas, since that's
one of the reasons we need itfirst.

Excellent, and that was great, tom, that you
mentioned that, you know,because that was actually my
next question, but you'vealready answered it, which is
great, talking about life force,but I want to give Zachary a
chance.
Zachary, is there anything thatyou'd love to add to that,
because that was definitely oneof my big particular ideas that
I was intrigued by as creativityas a life force.
What was your experiencethrough that research and what

(29:09):
surprised you about?
You know, your research in thatchapter.

Yeah, you know, one thing that I have
always appreciated aboutco-authoring this book is being
able to be introduced, to kindof sit back and immerse back in
that time when you know some ofthat language was obviously a

(29:45):
little bit more I wouldn't sayadvanced, but you know it's a
little bit different.
We don't talk necessarily likethat as much anymore.
But for me, why I believe thatthat chapter needed to be first
is it just again circles back tothe individual and that they

(30:06):
have a driving force within themand helping them to kind of
discover that.
And that's why I thought thefoundational theorists that we
included in that chapter werethe right choices and you know
there are others obviously butthose definitely were catalysts
in this area of learning andreally connecting that and

(30:30):
really helping to evolve thenext chapters and figuring out
how do we sort of connect eachone to that life force.
So that was really my journeyis to really again see that
connection between all of themas we continue to evolve our
book.

Well, what I love about the book and just again,
like I said, seeing just thechapters and a little bit of
that preview is just again, forme, in reading what I read, it
just seems very straightforward,very research-based, but also
practical in a lot of areas, andI found myself just connecting
with a lot of what I read, Again, just because of my experience

(31:10):
growing up as an only child andhaving to be creative in a way
and I know I've mentioned mystory a lot of episodes, you
know, growing up being alanguage broker for my parents
and obviously having to be verycreative and learning quickly
and learning how to translateand just being able to navigate
the space as an English languagelearner.

(31:32):
Growing up that way and helpingparents, my parents, you know
you have to, definitely, youknow, improvise, adapt and
overcome, you know, through alot of situations.
And so, as I was reading, youknow what I, what I'm available
to see, and you know a lot ofthese chapters I'm to ask you,
you know and I'll start off withyou, zach, you know, because I

(32:03):
know you talked a little bitabout this too, and then we'll
move over to Tom so how exactlydoes nurturing creativity help
develop these crucial areas youknow, such as social-emotional
that emotional, excuse me, letme rephrase that.
So you mentioned the connectionbetween creativity and both
cognitive and social emotionallearning.
So my question is how exactlydoes nurturing creativity help

(32:27):
develop these other crucialareas?

I think what the big word that comes to my
mind first is relationship.
Right that they are, and we'renot looking at each of those in
separate silos.
I mean, we have to be able tounderstand each of them
individually, but the goal is isthat we want to create that
bridge of a relationship Goinginto this book.
Yes, we needed to ensure thatwe were focusing on you know

(32:55):
neurology and you know spendinga great deal of time and working
, you know, helping the readerto understand the different
parts of the brain.
You know that chemistry, all ofthat.
But what I also found excitingis to work in that space of
social emotional learning.
It is a space that I thinkneeds more attention, and there

(33:19):
are, you know, a variety offrameworks that you can look at,
but what is crucial in socialemotional learning is you look
at it within nurturing of self,nurturing with others, such as
through play, which is somethingthat I know Tom knows a lot
about.
It's something that we didfocus on.
And how do we also build socialemotional capacity within our

(33:44):
environment, within ourcommunity, and so it really is a
blend again, of thoseecosystems and, as well as you
know, our connection toneurological influence,
cognitive influence and how youknow, children are able to
operate and see the world aroundthem.

Excellent.

Tom Rendon (34:04):
Tom.
Well, I want to.
Before I do, I want to justmake a brief comment, because
we're talking about growing upas a dual language learner and
what that meant, and I thinkit's actually directly connected
with what we know aboutcreativity as well, and that is
that we know that dual languagelearners have greater cognitive

(34:29):
flexibility, not least becausethey're switching back and forth
between different languages.
And it is exact.
What we discovered was, ratherthan there being, like I think
we sometimes have this idea inin in in brain science that
people live in like, oh, if I'mgoing to do something, well, a

(34:50):
certain part of my brain isgoing to light up, and if I do
something else, so like, I havea language part of my brain and
I have a memory part of my brain, part of my brain, and I have a
memory part of my brain.
And it's not that that's nottrue.
But what they're finding ismore important than the location
of these things.
It's the interconnectivitybetween them.
So it's the flexibility, andthey've actually done studies

(35:14):
that show that people that havea not to get too nerdy on you,
but you have two sides of thehemisphere, right at the brain
and in the middle is somethingcalled the corpus callosum, and
the corpus callosum is reallyjust a massive net of different
nerve connections between theright and left hemisphere of the

(35:35):
brain, and what they have foundis that the smaller that is in
terms of literal closeness, themore creative people are likely
to be, because interaction andconnectivity is apparently
easier, faster, more fluid, moreflexible.
So I think that actually duallanguage learners ought to have

(35:59):
a natural tendency.
I'm not saying I don't want tostereotype anyone in particular,
because these are really reallybroad, vague generalizations
but the fact remains thatflexible minds actually
encourage that kind ofcreativity, and when you were
talking about your ownbackground as a dual language
learner, it made me think aboutits direct connection actually
to creativity.
And when you were talking aboutyour own background as a
dualized learner, it made methink about its direct

(36:21):
connection actually tocreativity.
Getting back to the questionthat you were asking, which was
how do we see creativitysupporting cognitive development
and supporting social emotionaldevelopment, I think some of
the same things that I just saidcan really relate that, and
that is that cognitivedevelopment is really about the

(36:44):
development of new ideas, thedevelopment or, as I was talking
about before under sort ofconstructivist theory, the
development, the construction ofmeaning and the construction of
new knowledge.
So the idea is that when Iteach a child something, so if,
when, the idea is that when Iteach a child something, that
child may receive what I said.
But what ends up?

(37:05):
When you say, so, what did youlearn about ABC?
Because I just taught that toyou it's not going to come back
exactly the way you said.
It's going to be changed.
They're going to hear someparts more than other parts.
They're going to emphasize somethings more than so.

(37:25):
It's like well, how can I givesomebody something and then they
give it back to me and it looksdifferent.
How does that happen?
Well, that's because I wasconstructing it, I was creating
knowledge from the informationthat you gave me.
And if that's really the way welearn, which is by, we shouldn't
just attention, as we often doas teachers, we pay attention to
what's the content that I'mconveying to children, but it's

(37:49):
what's the content coming out ofchildren, and this, of course,
I always remember.
You're going to more of my wordlove, of word nerdiness coming
up, but the word education comesfrom the verb educe, which we
don't use very often.
But to educe something is todraw it out.

(38:10):
So education is not about whatwe put into children, it's about
what we draw out of children.
We draw out of children, and so, and, and what we discovered is
that there is no learningunless it's recreated, and I'm,
and I'm generating it.
So you were talking beforeabout what I would consider

(38:32):
multiple means of expression,like, maybe, maybe there are
many ways, like I can have alesson on, you know, the
geography of Mexico.
Let's say, well, there, youknow, I could write an essay
about that, I could do aPowerPoint presentation, I could
draw a map, you know, I couldmake a video, I could.
You know, there are many ways Icould express that.

(38:55):
And in doing so, I'm actuallyreally highlighting the creative
and the constructing nature ofmy own learning.
Well, how can I not be learningbetter and learning more when I
do that?
So that's the connection tocognitive and, I think, the
connection to socio-emotionalthat I find actually really,

(39:16):
really important, reallyimportant.
And if I could just give anexample from our current, what's
currently going on now is, Ithink a lot of the failure in
our politics is a failure ofimagination.
We can't conceive of howcertain things fit together, and
I'll just give you one quickexample that I've been thinking
about a lot, but if you followthe news as carefully as I do,

(39:41):
you know there was a recent votein Chuck Schumer, who's the
minority head of the Senate.
He voted with the Republicansto pass this and anyway, there
were a lot of Democrats who werereally angry for going along
with the Republicans becausethey're not happy with all the
stuff that the Republicans areapparently supporting Trump and
people who like that.
You know, I'm just I don't wantto turn your show into a

(40:03):
partisan thing, but I'm justsaying, I'm just describing
what's happening.
I'm not saying anything morethan that.
Well, when they were askingChuck Schumer, like well, why
did you do that?
You know his response was well,because, within the context of
lawmaking, we think we're givingthem more control and we want
to still retain control of it.

(40:24):
But then, when somebody askedBernie Sanders as an example of
somebody sort of outside of thatframe, it's like well, why
would you be opposed to whatChuck Schumer is saying?
And he said because real powercomes from the bottom up, it
comes from the people, andthat's where we're really going
to get change.
Well, regardless of the meritsof those two different points of

(40:50):
view.
What struck me about ChuckSchumer's response was he did
not have the imagination tothink about where does power
really come from From his mind.
I mean, if you're a minorityleader of the Senate, you think
your power comes from being theminority leader of the Senate.
But if you take a wider view,say, well, where does power

(41:10):
really come from?
Well, maybe power comes fromthe bottom up, from people
getting together and organizedpeople.
So a lot of our solutions todifferent political problems.
We think we have an answer, butI think the question we need to
be asking is what are we notthinking?
What can creativity tell us tomake us more imaginative for new

(41:33):
possibilities of how weinteract, how we understand the
world, how we design solutionsto problems?

So that's great and that, you know, right now
I'm still with not only thatexample, but just the word, you
know, educe, and the way thatyou said it's drawing out the
learning.
And what we continually see, atleast now in my experience now
in education, is the studentsare consuming the learning but

(42:02):
they really aren't creating or,you know, being creators of that
learning.
So that really struck a chordwith me, that really resonates
really loud and I think that'sgoing to be a great soundbite
for sure that I definitely wantto put out.
But you know, and of course,going into the cognitive side of
things, you know it's just soimportant making those
connections, like you mentioned,and being very imaginative in

(42:26):
the way that you're learning andeven in the way that you
present learning.
And I think you also hit on acouple of things throughout the
episode too, talking about, youknow, a little bit of that
imposter syndrome maybe manytimes, thinking, well, maybe
that person knows more than me,like, for example, I would, you
know, say well, you know,zachary, tom, they're a little
bit more knowledgeable oncreativity than I am.
But at the same time I come inwith a different perspective too

(42:49):
as well, and sometimes I thinkthat hinders a lot of the
creativity for a lot of people,which is that imposter syndrome.
Which kind of brings me to oneof my last questions here that I
do want to ask, and just kindof, maybe through your research
and maybe in your own experienceworking with children and
working with adults too as well,what are some ways that adults

(43:11):
might accidentally be stiflingchildren's creativity without
them realizing it?
And I'll start off with you,zachary.

I'm smiling just because I have such an
amazing community, especiallyparents.
This week we had Clifford theBig Red Dog come and visit the
library and really seeing thatexcitement come to life,
especially from an imagination,where we're able to bring a

(43:44):
character from a story to thelibrary.
But why I'm smiling too is whenwe complete, let's say, a story
time and we go into a craftactivity or an art activity or
that space for creativity.
It's an interesting time for meas a librarian, as a researcher

(44:09):
, to observe that interaction,because I'm always curious as to
when, you know what windowwindow of time occurs to where,
as an adult, we want to takeover and we want to control the
creative experience.

(44:30):
And I say that with all thelove of my heart.
I'm not saying anybody's atfault here, but there are times.
I'll give you a prime example.
I don't know why I decided onetime to do to teach kids about
camels.
I don't know how that all cameabout, but, um, we did a
creative activity after theprogram where kids could, you

(44:54):
know, kind of piece together acamel so sort of a creative
craft, if you will and Iobserved this child putting the
head where the feet should beand the feet where the head
should be, and I was just havinga good old time allowing that
child to really experience thatcreativity and being mindful

(45:15):
that eventually we want to learnabout, you know, the top down,
about how our bodies are puttogether, and that is important.
But it was interesting to seethe parent come immediately and
say we got to start over now.
And they I watched them, youknow take, take it apart.
And because they ripped a littlebit of it and they threw that

(45:37):
part of the garbage, um, andagain I I want to be very clear,
like nobody's at fault, I neverwant to tell a parent how to
parent, but we need to givegrace and space for children to
um, be spontaneous and gothrough that process and enjoy
it as well and limit our controlat times.

(46:01):
And that's something that welearned, you know, in the
process of our research andespecially with our application
by going to different sites andstuff is you do set the space up
right, you bring supplies in oryou bring puppets in or
whatever you're wanting them todo, but you're also giving them

(46:24):
space to figure out that journeyand how they want to enjoy that
experience.
So that to me, is sort of a biglesson is to let children be
creative and to celebrate thatand to really be mindful of how
much control you may want tohave, um, because it's very easy

(46:47):
for us as adults um to to wantto redirect a child immediately.
So excellent.

Thank you, Zach.
How about you, Tom?

Tom Rendon (46:59):
Well, I really want to just underscore some of what
Zach said about control.
I think well and you know,thinking about teachers I think
teachers really like control andthey often feel like it's
really important becauseclassroom management is a big
challenge for teachers.

(47:20):
But I would say that the biggestobstacle to supporting
children's creativity, or whatmaybe adults do that prevent
creativity or stifle it in someway is really not listening or
paying attention to whatchildren are saying and doing.

(47:42):
I think we have to be able tolisten to them because one of
the things we do we think of itas a passive role.
I'm not doing anything, I'mjust listening, but active
listening and really payingattention.
What you're doing is you'regiving that person a gift of

(48:02):
time and your own attention.
I could be focused on many,many things, but no, I'm going
to be focused on you and whatyou're saying and how you're
expressing yourself, and whatI'm doing when I do that is I'm
saying you're valued, what yousay is important and um, and I

(48:24):
think that that's one of thebest things we could do to
encourage creativity.
Children is to um, is to getthem to value for themselves
their own creative expressionsand their own way of being
created.
The other part of the controlis I kind of want to ask why do

(48:49):
we feel control is so necessary?
And I think one of the reasonswe think that control is
necessary is because we'reafraid of what's going to happen
when we lose control, and Ithink that if we don't allow for
spontaneity and allow forthings to happen and emerge,
we're not going to be socreative.

(49:11):
We're not going to be socreative.
I think that, like the sort ofclassic way teachers are often
taught, you establish a lessonplan and you decide well, here's
what I'm going to give to thestudents and here's what I'm
going to say to the students,here's the experiences I'm going
to give to the students.
And then you do that and Iwould venture to say 95% of the

(49:34):
time it never works out.
Sometimes you have a 10-stepprocess in your lesson plan and
you get to one and that's it.
That's as far as you get.
And so we think, oh my God,what a failure I am.
I can't even do a simple lessonplan.
What's wrong with me?
And I want to flip that on itshead and say but you created an

(49:57):
opportunity for stuff to happen.
And then can you improvise inthe context of that.
And actually we have a wholesection in the book, really
based on a wonderful book bySawyer.
I'm trying to remember Keith,yeah, keith Sawyer, thank you.

(50:20):
Really great book.
We talk about it in the book,but he talks a lot about the
kind of drawing parallelsbetween improvisational comedy
and teaching and how they cansupport each other.
So, but in order to do that,I'm going to come back to
something I said earlier.
The two key ingredients we needin ourselves to be creative is

(50:45):
curiosity and courageousness,the ability to put it out there
and go, and students have thesame thing.
It's like, oh no, I better notraise my hand because my answer
might be wrong.
Well, if we can't do everythingwe can to eliminate that,
whatever penalty there isassociated with giving the wrong
answer, because you arecreating something, even

(51:08):
creating something wrong willlead to creating something
better, you know.
Wrong will lead to creatingsomething better, you know, and,
and.
So I just want to highlightthose two pieces of courage, and
and, and and curiosity as sortof antidotes to that need to
control.

And if I had you know if I could finish on
that question.
Something that I also wasexcited that we put in the book
is daydreaming is a good thingand to celebrate daydreaming,
because I don't think we Idaydream a lot and I don't think
I think we underscore thatvalue of daydreaming Because, as

(51:49):
Tom said, you know we want tobe able to give them that space
and to be courageous and knowingthat dreaming like that allows
for new creative avenues andopportunities.
I love that One thing.

I also wanted to add though, if you don't mind
and is for me one of the biggestthings in the classroom that
really helped me out was notonly my own personal curiosity
with the subject matter, andagain, maybe for me it was very
different or maybe because I washardwired that way, I guess,
growing up.
But for me, coming in fromprivate sector into education

(52:19):
and so really not knowing orlearning, I guess, how to teach,
really sparked my curiosity inmy subject matter.
But also one of the things thatI found was very useful was
even just being vulnerable withyour students and understanding
that, hey, it's OK to not knoweverything.
I may not have the answer rightnow or yet, but I can get that

(52:42):
for you and allowing them toalso feel comfortable in the
classroom to say like, hey,although the answer might not be
correct, but let's dissect whatyou did answer and how that
does tie to you know, gettingyou to the right answer and I
think the attention to thecreator's human and I think one

(53:04):
thing that I also want tohighlight and sort of where I
came from in my own experiencewith the disability is helping
children to eventually becometheir own creative advocate.

Right, how do we teach these skills to
advocate for your creativity?
And one way that happened to mewas geometry.
Somebody asked me to memorizeall these proofs and I'm like
this isn't working for me, butif you let me walk around this
table, we'll get where we needto go.
But because that individual andI'm not going to call them out

(53:37):
did not lean in on that, did notsupport that, it failed
geometry and what it did in 11thgrade is to really show value
in making sure you're advocatingfor yourself.
But we need to do that as earlyas possible and advocacy really
starts with us as adults, asTom said, you know, making sure

(54:01):
that we're courageous enough togive them the space to do that.

Tom Rendon (54:06):
Fawn.
Do you mind if I add just onemore?
Sure, go ahead.
Yeah, because, and actuallythis is in the final chapter of
the book.
Yeah, because, and actuallythis is in the final chapter of
the book.
But but one of the things thatthat we really recommend is is
to think about your own yourselfas a creative person.
How are you created and whatways you create.

(54:26):
We really want to just issuethe whole notion of well, there
are, you know, I'm not acreative, or those are the
creative people I'm like the noncreative peopleive people or
whatever we might.
It's like we're all creative.
And if you don't believe thatand there's no reason that you
should, just because I'm sayingthat, but it's like, think about
your own life and how you'vebeen creative.

(54:48):
And we actually model in thelast chapter and I really love
your word vulnerability, becauseI think both Zach and I were
very vulnerable in that finalchapter about sort of admitting
to tough times in our lives,mistakes we've made, things that
didn't work out well and therole of creativity.
So it was sort of created acreativity biography for

(55:10):
ourselves and using that as abasis to say you know what I did
, create that and I created thatand I created that and I
created.
It's like I am a creative being, like I've got tangible
evidence, I can prove to myselfthat I'm a creative being.
But when you can get to thatpoint, then you can really teach

(55:30):
children about that sameprocess of discovering their own
creativity and it's not likethey don't have creativity.
That's why we call itcreativity in young children,
not as if creativity is a skillwe're going to give to children.
They're already being created.
It just needs to be, as we'vesaid repeatedly, brought out and

(55:54):
nurtured, and you need to bethe midwife to all of the
creative process, but startingwith your own creative journey.
And so we kind of model that inthe book and then really
encourage people to do this.

I love that.
Well, gentlemen, thank you somuch.
This has been an amazing andenlightening conversation and
it's definitely filled my bucket, and especially, talking about
creativity, which is somethingthat I know, I've gone through a
creative journey and you know alot of the things that you've
described is things that I haveeither felt or have experienced
at some time, or even had toadapt and overcome.

(56:30):
But I thank you for thiswonderful resource and I
definitely we will be linking itin the show notes.
So, for all our audiencemembers, please make sure that
you check out the show notes forcreativity and young children.
What science tells us and ourhearts know, so make sure you
pick that up.
But before we wrap up, gentlemen, I always love to end the show

(56:50):
with these last three questions,so we'll go ahead and alternate
them, and I'll go ahead andstart with you, tom, since
you're a first-time guest, soyou get to answer this question
first.
So, as we know, every superherohas a weakness or a pain point.
Like much like superman,kryptonite was his weakness.
So I want to ask you, tom, inthe current state of education,

(57:12):
what would you say is yourcurrent edu kryptonite?

Tom Rendon (57:18):
uh, it'd have to be procrastination it kills me it
destroys me and uh and it.
It's, uh, probably the biggeststifler, uh, of my creative
output, and I don't generate asmuch things.
You know.
It's things I write, or thingsI say, or what product, whatever

(57:39):
I'm doing, ideas if I um, if Iyou know, procrastinate, so
that's just sucks, just likekryptonite just sucks all the
energy out of me and all I wantto do is to curl up and stay in
bed all day.

Hey, you know what ?
That is exactly the way that Ifeel.
I think you and I are the sameway, like procrastination.
I used to always say when I wasgoing to college I'd say I
procrastinate later.
I'd be one of those the nightbefore doing 25-page research
papers and everything.
But now, as I get older, I'mlike, oh, this hurts, this
really hurts now.
And yeah, it's definitelydifficult.

Tom Rendon (58:15):
It hurt back then too, you know.

Yeah, it did hurt back then, but we were still
young and we didn't feel iteither.
But now, oh, that hurts.
All right, zachary, on to you.
I want to ask you what wouldyou say is your current edu
kryptonite?

I struggle with this one, but I think mine
is balance right now, because Ijust want to seize every
opportunity and I don't know, Idon't want to say the answer no,
but I don't know how to findthat balance and saying maybe
right, not right now, and sothen I just get really tired but

(58:54):
I do want to go to bed.
But trying to find that balanceis my kryptonite right now.

All right, it sounds good.
Thank you, zachary.
All right, we'll start off withyou now, zachary, for question
number two.
If you could have a billboardwith anything on it, what would
it be?
And why.

You know, you and I were talking about this
at the very beginning, before wehopped on, and I've changed it
and I'm going to give creditwhere credit's due.
But right now, in talking aboutthis today and our creativity,
I'm going.
You've made this day a specialday, but just by just being you,

(59:35):
there's no person in the wholeworld like you and I like you
just the way you are, and Ithink that pretty sums up the
billboard I would like to haveright now.

Excellent.
Well, thank you so much,Zachary.
How about you, Tom?
What would your billboard say?

Tom Rendon (59:50):
Well, I'm going to that.
What what came to mind for mewas actually something I saw.
It wasn't quite on a billboard,it was on the side of a
building and it was the ScienceCenter of Iowa, and it says
creativity is intelligencehaving fun, and I think that
pulls together a lot of thethings that we've been talking

(01:00:11):
about today.
That, um, creativity is anexpression of intelligence, and
so therefore, we can't think ofintelligence just as like book,
knowledge or whatever.
It's obviously something morethan that, and if there's not an
element of fun to it, I thinkwe're somehow cutting it short
and short, changing ourselves.

(01:00:31):
So that's something I reallylearned when I with the saving
playbook.
So I sometimes think maybe thisbook should should be have been
saving creativity.
Yeah, what you were sayingabout how maybe it's gotten
pushed out too much out of oureducational processes today yeah
, definitely great answer, tom.

Fonz Mendoza (01:00:50):
All right, and the last question.
Now we'll start off with you,tom.
If you can trade places withone person for a single day, who
would that person be and why?

Tom Rendon (01:01:12):
I could trade places with Mr Rogers for a day.
And the reason is because, tome, what makes Mr Rogers special
and and in you know again,maybe this is the wrong
vocabulary, but what I considerhim a saint is his transparency.
He's utterly who he is, youknow.
He was always interviewed.
It's like well, you're like,you know, you're this very nice

(01:01:35):
man on television, but like, whoare you really?
And he's going well, I'm who Iam.
I can't be anybody who I am.
And when we can come, if I canlive out of that space to just
say I am who I am.
And this is how I'm presentingmyself today, without apology,
without explanation, withoutregret with courage to do that,

(01:02:07):
as we've been talking about.

That, to me is real freedom.
Excellent, tom.
All right, great answer, I loveit.
All right, zachary.
How about yourself?
Who would you trade places forwith a day?
Who?

Dr. Zachary Stier (01:02:16):
would you trade places with for a day, and
why?
Being famous like Mr Rogers?

(01:02:37):
But I would definitely say mydad.
You know seeing the world likewhat he did was very simple.
He went day to day living avery simple life.
But it really helps me toconnect to creativity because he
was able to really operate inthat space and figuring out ways
to solve, you know, day-to-dayproblems or articulate things.

(01:03:00):
Going fishing and seeing youknow the connection between
nature and fish to the metaphorof life.
I mean, I really appreciatedthat because I sometimes can
take things a little bit moreseriously than most and it just
provided a lot of ease into mylife.

(01:03:21):
And I think that that'ssignificant when we look at
creativity is that there issimplicity and it is a matter of
pausing and reflecting andlooking, and sometimes I don't
think we do enough of thatbecause we're in this space of
what's next and being busychecking things off, and so that

(01:03:42):
would be the best answer todayfor me.

Awesome, zachary.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate it, zachary.
Tom, you've been phenomenal.
Thank you again and again.
Ladies and gentlemen those ofyou that are watching or
listening make sure you look forthe book.
The link is in the show notes.
Creativity and Young Children.
What Science Tells Us and OurHearts Know these are your
wonderful authors, zachary Steerand Tom Vendon.

(01:04:09):
Thank you again and for all ofyou watching, please make sure
you visit our website atmyedtechlife myedtechlife, where
you can check out this amazingepisode and the other 319
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(01:04:52):
in our mission of bringing yousome great conversations,
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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 320: Zachary Stier & Tom Rendon

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Episode 320: Zachary Stier & Tom Rendon

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