Episode 326: Teodora Pavkovic

Episode Transcript
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Fonz Mendoza (00:30):
Hello everybody and welcome to another great
episode of my EdTech Life.
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(00:50):
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(01:12):
Because of you, we're able tobring you these amazing
conversations.
So thank you for that andbelieving in our mission, in
what we are doing, connectingone show at a time and, ladies
and gentlemen, today I amexcited to welcome to the show a
very special guest, theodoraPopkovich, who is joining us
today and we're going to betalking about digital wellness

(01:35):
and we're going to be learning alittle bit about the work that
she's doing through LineWise and, obviously, talking about some
hot topics that are out thereright now, such as digital
wellness, obviously, studenthealth, screen time and, of
course, talking a little bitabout AI, chatbots and the
implications of AI in theeducation space or, obviously,

(01:57):
in the youth space as well.
So, teodora, I would love towelcome you to the show.
How are you doing today?

Teodora Pavkovic (02:03):
So, teodora, I would love to welcome you to
the show.
How are you doing today?
I'm doing great.
Thank you so much.
I've really been lookingforward to our conversation and
just really getting to dig intothese topics.
I spend most of my daysthinking and dreaming about
these issues and I know that allof our viewers and listeners
are as well.
So, yeah, so really appreciatebeing here with you today.

Excellent.
Well, teodora, before we divein, for all our audience members
that are listening to us andare just getting to know who you
are today and may not be toofamiliar with your work, trust
me, after today, you'redefinitely going to have a lot
more followers on your socialmedia and so on, so I'm really
excited about that.
But can you please give us alittle brief introduction and

(02:44):
what your context is within thedigital wellness space?

years and the training after that, thinking
about youth psychology, adultpsychology, issues like anxiety

(03:12):
and depression in particular,and kind of working towards
really figuring out new andnovel ways of helping people
deal with these issues, and alot of my influences come from
areas like cognitive behavioraltherapy, things like positive
psychology as well.
It's a really, I would say, bigfuel that adds sort of to the
fire of the work that I've doneover the past couple of decades
when it comes to helping peopledeal with some of these issues

(03:32):
that really we all have to dealwith on a daily basis.
This work, in a sort ofroundabout way, led me to
becoming increasingly interestedin children and technology.
I've always been interested intechnology.
Children I've always beeninterested in technology
children I've always beeninterested in children's
development as well and sort ofthe different factors that
influence their development, ofcourse, the role of the parent

(03:54):
in that role in the community,and then, sort of around 2015 or
16, that role that technologywas increasingly starting to
play there as well.
At the time I was living andworking in Singapore.
Being a Southeast Asian country, you know a lot of interest in
technology, very kind of futurefocused thinking, a lot of
investment in making sure thatyoung people are equipped to

(04:15):
handle technology in the bestway possible.
So I was starting to noticethat children were increasingly
using technology, especiallyyoung children, and especially
in the kinds of settings whereyou maybe wouldn't typically see
them using technology prior tothat period.
So riding the bus, they wouldtypically be sort of daydreaming
, looking out the window.
Now they had a device in frontof them.

(04:36):
Waiting in a queue at theairport, they had a device in
front of them Having dinner withtheir family, they had a device
in front of them.
So the key question for me atthat point was is this good or
bad?
Maybe it's neither, but whatkind of impact is it going to
have on that parent-childrelationship if you essentially
sort of insert this filter, ifyou will, and, in a sense, this
disruptor?
And so that really got mestarted on this journey.

(04:58):
So it's almost been a decade atthis point.
I've worked across differentcontinents, different countries.
I've worked with differentpopulations, so with schools,
with parents, with children.
I've presented at a lot ofdifferent conferences.
The most recent one was Southby Southwest Education, which
I'm sure some of our againviewers and listeners have
attended it in the past.
It's an incredible place, anincredible gathering of people,

(05:21):
and I really appreciated thatopportunity to be there and to
really talk about the imperativeof parental engagement when it
comes to children's onlinesafety and I know that's
something that we're going todive a little bit deeper into,
but that's really where mypassion lies how to protect
children while really educatingand engaging the whole community
around them.

And that is something that is truly needed.
These conversations aredefinitely something that has
been on the up and up,especially with most recently,
you know, and especially youknow, I would say, even before
COVID, but maybe not as much asafter COVID with the screen time
.
And then now, obviously, astechnology advances and the use
of artificial intelligence and,of course, the use of chatbots

(06:04):
and so on, there tends to bemore screen time and so on.
But before we dive into that alittle bit more, I want to ask
you you know about your role asdirector of well-being at
LineWise, so tell me a littlebit about what LineWise is and,
of course, your experience withLineWise.
What is it that you're exactlytrying to do?
I know you told us a little bitabout that passion and that

(06:26):
mission of bringing these talksto parents and so on, but tell
us a little bit more about thework through LineWise.

Sure.
So one of the things that sortof excites me most about being
part of this organization it'snow nearly been four years that
I've been a part of LineWise isthat the fact that someone like
me, with the kind of backgroundthat I have and the kind of
passion and passions that I have, has a role to play in an
organization like that, which isincredibly unique among other

(06:57):
organizations that are sort ofin this children's online safety
space.
So we are a global leader inthis space and children's online
safety and digital well-being.
We help our partner schools, wepartner up with our school
districts in the US, around theworld as well, to really make
sure that we keep children'sacademic success and their

(07:17):
safety and their well-being allof these really sort of key
factors when it comes tochildren's development that we
keep it front and center as wesupport schools in this mission
to make sure that, even aschildren are utilizing their
laptops and iPads and you knowdifferent types of tools, you
know AI that they're having toutilize these days in order to

(07:39):
succeed in the academic settingbut also, one day, succeed sort
of, you know, in the workplace.
We don't quite know what that'sgoing to look like, but we know
that they're going to need thesort of set of skills we want to
make sure that they can utilizethese technologies and spend
their time in these virtualspaces, but really ensure that
they're safe while they're doingthat.
And so we do this in a numberof different ways.

(07:59):
We have an online safety anddigital wellbeing framework that
we use in order to really helpour partner districts sort of
figure out where they're at inthe present moment in terms of
sort of fulfilling this missionand then also really help them
identify what some of those gapsare.
And so we think about thisthrough sort of three different
pillars, if you will.
The first and foremost andbasic one is really all around

(08:21):
prevention.
So, to begin with, how can wepredict, sort of prevent rather,
some of the key issues thatchildren might encounter?
And this is where things likeyour sort of basic internet
filter will fit in.
We then move into thinkingabout okay, we know that we
can't prevent these 100%,certain things will sort of come
through.
So, in that case, how can weactually detect these issues as

(08:42):
early as we possibly can?
And then, how can we alsointervene as quickly as we can
to make sure that childrenaren't engaging in harmful
behaviors or, you know, beingexposed to sort of harmful
things on the internet.
Make sure that we're mindful oftheir well-being.
And then, ultimately, the thirdpillar, which is one that I'm
particularly excited about andwhere I mostly fit in terms of

(09:03):
my role as a director ofwell-being, is how do we really
engage and educate the wholecommunity again around that
child and around the experiencesthat they're having online and
around the fact that they haveto use these technologies.
We really can't fight againstthat.
I'm not sure we ever could, butwe certainly can't right now.
So we know that's a must, buthow can we make sure that the

(09:25):
teachers are mindful and awareof what's going on?
How do we make sure that theparents, that the families, the
caregivers, are aware of what isgoing on with their kids online
, make sure that they're awareof some of the key online safety
risks, but then also make surethat we really empower them as
much as possible, and so this iswhere, for example, our parent
education piece comes in.

(09:46):
We have a community offeringthat I'm very excited about.
Some of what I do there is dolive sessions with parents,
educating them again around themany risks that children can
encounter online, but also beingvery mindful of the benefits,
and for me, always the kind offoremost mission or goal is to
really leave the parent feelingempowered, leave them feeling

(10:07):
confident, because that is oneof the key, if not the key issue
that I see nowadays and when itcomes in general to parenting
in the age of technology, isparents really don't feel
confident to do this and so thenthey often just kind of tune
out because it's reallyoverwhelming and it can be
incredibly scary.
I know a lot of different placeswill try and utilize that fear

(10:28):
in order to sort of get them toact and intervene.
My approach I think ourapproach, is a little bit
different.
We really want to stay veryfocused on education, enablement
, empowerment, all of the E's toreally make sure that parents
are aware and that they knowexactly what they need to do in
order to really make sure thatparents are aware and that they
know exactly what they need todo in order to really equip
themselves and then ultimatelyequip their children as well.

Yes, you know that to me right now, with what you
said to me, really sets youapart from a lot of other
different platforms that I havegrown to know through my job and
going through conferences andso on, and of course, there's
many different tools that manydistricts use.
But what you're saying isspeaking my language in the

(11:12):
sense that I have always been ahuge proponent that we need to
include the parents as much aspossible.
When we talk about learningcommunities, usually it's like
well, you know, let's say, theservice center or central office
, then you've got teachers andstudents, but then the parents,
you know they fall by thewayside.
But I love how you are veryparent focused as well in what

(11:34):
you're describing and many ofthe talks that I have with
parents usually on a monthlybasis when we'll do our webinar
Wednesdays a lot of the thingsthat I cover with them are, you
know, digital, cybersecurity,digital, you know, citizenship,
things of that sort, and ofcourse, these conversations come
up and you described whathappens with parents.
Very often is that kind ofanalysis, paralysis, where it's

(11:57):
there's too much information forthem to really dissect through
and then they just, like yousaid, they just get paralyzed
and then they don't do anything,and then, of course, that has a
trickle down effect If there issomething going on with their
child, they may not be able toact on it as quickly as possible
.
So I want to applaud you and, ofcourse, the work that LineWise

(12:19):
is doing, because I think thatat least in this time, right now
, these are some of theconversations that really need
to be had and we need to includeparents in these conversations
as much as possible.
So, going into what digitalwellness is like and of course I
am not an expert in this fieldbecause, like I mentioned, when

(12:40):
I do talk to parents, it'sobviously that digital
citizenship, you know,protecting them from
cyberbullying, you know maybe alot of dangerous trends that are
out there and so on but can youjust kind of open up and go in
a little deeper as far as whatdigital wellness is?
A good definition for ouraudience members so they can

(13:00):
understand?

Sure.
So I sort of developed a well,what I think is a relatively
simple way of thinking about itand hopefully our listeners and
viewers will think of it thatway as well that orient us
towards both ourselves and othersort of users of the internet,
of internet, these variousinternet spaces, virtual digital

(13:22):
spaces that we frequent inorder to think about what it
means to be digitally well.
So the way I think about thatis that being digitally well
means that we're usingtechnology in a mindful,
intentional, humane kind of wayso that it doesn't cause sort of
a detrimental effect to our ownwell-being or to the well-being

(13:45):
of other people.
So that's a very kind of highlevel sort of idea.
We can then dig deeper down andlook at okay, what does that
mean for us?
How can we interact with thesetechnologies in that mindful and
intentional way so that itdoesn't sort of cause issues for
our own mood and our ownwell-being, our perception of
ourselves and the world?

(14:05):
I think that's one of the waysin which the digital world
impacts us the most.
It changes how we see ourselvesand how we see other people, and
then inevitably kind of changeshow we show up in the world as
a result of that.
So there is that relationshipthat we sort of have with
ourselves via these digitalspaces, digital platforms, the
content that we create, that wesort of have with ourselves via
these digital spaces, digitalplatforms, the content that we

(14:26):
create, that we consume.
But then also, how can we thinkabout that in an outward way,
when we think about how do ouractions in these spaces and on
these devices and on theseplatforms, how do they impact
other people as well?
And if we look at some of thetrends over maybe the past 10 or
15 years, as we've sort ofshifted from social media and

(14:48):
maybe some of those moresocially quote unquote oriented
platforms to these more AIpowered platforms, I think
there's been an interesting kindof shift and change there.
When it comes to social media,I think we do need to think a
little bit more about how weshow up for other people and how
what we do in those spacesinfluences others.
One of the problems that we seenow, especially with young

(15:08):
people using AI, is that youkind of create this vacuum in
which all that exists is you andthis sort of synthetic life
form, if that's what we want tocall it, and that's when I think
we're really called to considerhow our use of these platform
uses, how they sort of influenceus so that's kind of how I
think about digital, reallycalled to consider how our use
of these platform uses, how theysort of influence us.
So that's kind of how I thinkabout digital well-being.

(15:29):
And then, of course, withinthat fits, you know, as you
mentioned, digital citizenshipwhat it means to be a
responsible, a healthy, acompassionate digital citizen,
and I know a lot of individualsand organizations and schools
are really doing a great job ofprioritizing that.
We certainly think of that asbeing really important as well

(15:49):
at Lion Wise, I certainly do asan individual as well, and
that's where we can think aboutthings like online bullying, for
example.
Right, that's one of thebiggest ones.
So when it comes to bullyingand when I'm talking to parents
about that, I'll talk to them alot about that issue of how we
show up for other people and theconversations that they can
have with their kids about thatand the conversations they can
have, for example, around thetone that we use when we

(16:12):
communicate with others.
We know that the tone that weuse online is not quite the same
as the tone that we use offline, and we know that some of the
words that we use and the waysin which we express ourselves
online are quite different thanwhat they are offline.
And that's because offline youhave that immediacy of the other
human being there and thethings that you're saying
potentially hurting them orharming them or upsetting them,

(16:34):
making them sad, making themhappy, right, we have that
immediate sense of reaction.
We don't have that in thesevirtual spaces and it's very
easy for us to sort of hide.
So that's just one sort oflittle touch point when you're
diving a little bit deeper intothat definition of digital
wellness, of what it means to bedigitally well, and then we can
look at so many differentelements.

(16:54):
We can talk about screen time.
Screen time is another reallybig topic that I sort of coach
and educate and train around alot.
How can we think about screentime?
What is too much, what is justmuch, what is just enough, what
is too little?
Maybe because that could be apossibility as well how can we
combine both the question aroundquality and around quantity?
How do we manage our children'saccess depending on their

(17:16):
biological age, their maturitylevel, their personality and
characteristics, theirtemperament?
How do we do that when they'refive as compared to when they're
10 and when they're 16, 17 and18?
And how do we do that on socialmedia versus how do we do that
on texting platforms versus now,how do we do that with AI bots
and all of these different AIpowered platforms?
So all of these differentthings play a big role in there.

(17:39):
A couple of the other more sortof higher level things that I
also always keep an eye out onare things like legislation,
governance.
So what is happening in thatarea, whether it's in the US,
whether it's internationally aswell?
So, going all the way fromthose highest levels around, how
are these different basesregulated?
All the way to how are the techcompanies themselves thinking

(18:03):
about this?
What types of elements ofdesign are they implementing?
What are the types of behaviorsthat they're trying to get out
of us?
How are they trying to get usto engage with these platforms?
These platforms aren't entirelyneutral.
Yes, we often talk about themas tools, and it varies a lot
depending on how you want to useit.
So you have some sense ofagency, certainly in terms of
how you use it a lot dependingon how you want to use it.

(18:24):
So you have some sense ofagency, certainly in terms of
how you use it and also kind ofhow you curate your experiences
on these platforms, but thereare certain greater sort of
powers there that are alsoinfluencing how we behave, how
much time we spend on theseplatforms, what type of
information and content do wesee, and those things can have a
really profound impact on us aswell.
So, going from those higherlevels all the way down to that

(18:47):
individual parent or child oryou or me who are utilizing
these platforms and who arecreating content or consuming
content there, I think every oneof these levels is incredibly
important.
When it comes to digitalwellness, I think we all have a
part to play there, especiallyagain going back to the child
who's really sitting at thecenter of all of it and who
didn't really ask.

(19:07):
Well, they asked to have thatiPhone, but they didn't really
ask, in a fundamental way, fortheir world to look the way it
does.
You know, we created this worldfor them and just kind of
dumped this onto them.
So I think we have that hugeresponsibility to then equip
them also in the best waypossible and try to keep them
safe and well.
You know as much as we can.

Exactly, yes, exactly and yes to all of that.
There's so many great thingsthat you shared there that are
just really set off, like myself, as far as you know some of the
challenges that you spoke of.
And, of course, you've got thescreen time.
Not only is there screen timeat school, and we, of course
there's always been severalarticles.
Oh well, the screen time atschool it's like productive

(19:48):
screen time as opposed to justkind of like brain rot screen
time at home and the differenceand how to engage there and then
trying to find balances and soon.
So that's one thing that youknow we have heard a lot about
and I'm glad that you discussedthat, because within your answer
, I mean you discussed a lot ofthe challenges that parents face
.
And in talking to parents, youknow number one, like we talked

(20:11):
a little bit about earlier,there's like so much information
out there that parents justkind of get paralyzed and don't
know where to start, where tobegin.
So I love the fact that thework that you're doing through
AlignWise helps educate theparents.
Also, you know very important,like talking about the screen
time and the way that you showup for people and talking about

(20:31):
tone, which is very interestingbecause that kind of set a
little thing off in me when, Iguess, getting deeper into tech,
I am from the era where I wasin middle school and maybe I'm
really aging myself here, guysbut we had beepers, you know, or
pagers, they would call them,and it was just like your parent
would dial a code or just say,hey, call home, or something

(20:52):
like that, and it was verylimited.
So started with that in juniorhigh.
But then, you know, when youmove on to texting, I was always
terrible at I would put toneinto every message and I'd be
like, well, are they mad at me?
Why are they mad at me, when itwas just a simple answer?
And so a lot of times, you know,even when you're receiving a
message or with the way that youinteract with people, we have a

(21:14):
tendency to do those things.
And then, obviously, how is itthat you mean that message?
How are you trying to speak tothat person which talks about
the digital citizenship and youknow, talking about digital or
the bullying, cyber bullying aswell how are we showing up and
answering our friends oranswering our colleagues,
answering our peers and, ofcourse, those dangers?

(21:34):
So much to unpack there, whichkind of leads me to my next
question, because I know you hiton a lot of those things which
are some of the challenges thatparents are facing.
But what I see and I don't knowif you've experienced it, maybe
you have but in my area, in myneck of the woods, you know,
usually I can't go to a grocerystore or you know supermarket or

(21:56):
just a shop where there isn't ayoung little maybe two-year-old
, three-year-old in a stroller,little maybe two-year-old,
three-year-old in a stroller,and they've got the cell phone
and or they've got the iPad andthey are just scrolling away,
watching everything, and it justseems like it's kind of like
here, just kind of keep you busyso you don't cry while mom and

(22:17):
pop do what we need to do and soon.
And to me I'm like at such anearly age it is scary to think
how addicted they can become.
Like you mentioned, what is thepurpose of this application as
garnering that interaction fromeven a two-year-old?
What are they trying, thechallenges there?

(22:41):
So I want to ask you a littlebit about that.
How can a parent find thatbalance, as far as you know hey,
let me limit the screen time orhave a talk with them, but also
putting their own guardrails inplace.
What would be some of thesuggestions that you have?
You know, along with that withyou know, kind of within that

(23:04):
question.

Yeah, sure, there's so many different angles
to that and so many differentdifferent layers.
I think we could talk for hoursabout this.
As I mentioned before, you know, one of the things that kind of
triggered me and kind of tothink about all of this and led
me down this path was thoseobservations like the one that
you just mentioned, where thereis that very young child kind of
attached I use some of thatkind of the sort of psycholingo

(23:29):
there but attached essentiallyto a device, and at a very young
age we don't quite think aboutit as sort of addiction, it's
really more just a normalization.
Again, the child is too youngto really understand what's
going on.
They pick up habits veryquickly, their brain develops
incredibly quickly and kind ofcreate those patterns super fast

(23:49):
.
And so, if you know, you dothat one time whenever you walk
into the grocery store, you giveyour child a device and then do
it a second time.
By the third time they'reprobably going to be expecting
it right.
And that comes from the hugearea in psychology, you know,
and there's behaviorism, a lotof research done and that shows
how quickly we build habits andhow difficult it is for us to
break them.
So that's one of the mainreasons that I always share with

(24:11):
parents when it comes to againbeing mindful and intentional
about the time at which, and thereasons because of which, we
give especially our very youngchildren devices, especially
when they're pre-verbal.
We, nor they, don't have thatability to really talk through
what is going on and why it'shappening and the reasons for
why it's starting or ending, andit just it causes a lot, of, a

(24:34):
lot of friction, let alone then,as you know, as our children
get older.
The benefit, though, is that wecan at least have those
conversations with them andexplain things and make sure
that they understand rationallywhy we're making the decisions
that we are.
When they're very young, theybecome very used to kind of
living in that virtual space, asopposed to the real world of
the grocery store with thefruits and the vegetables and

(24:56):
the other people who are thereand the different types of
lighting, and is it lightoutside?
Is it dark outside?
The child isn't quite aware oftheir surroundings at that point
, and they're very much immersed, sort of, in that virtual world
, and one of the things thatworries me about that is that
it's setting up young peoplequite nicely for the AI bots and
the VR and all of thesedifferent things that are

(25:17):
already here.
They're only going to becomemore present as they get older.
Not being inside a car, notbeing inside a restaurant, but
always being in a virtual spaceinstead, makes it very easy for
them to pick up those VR gogglesor whatever the wearable is

(25:38):
going to be down the line andjust enter that virtual space.
It's a space that they're verycomfortable with, and we see
that reflected now in howchildren communicate, how they
express the very deep thoughtsand feelings.
They're much more comfortabledoing that in a digital setting
as compared to, you know, thoseof us who had the pagers and the
beepers and the old Nokia's inthe late 90s playing snake on

(25:59):
them, like I did where we have areference point for what it was
like to interact and tocommunicate in person.
So that's one of the sort ofkey elements of creating that
balance is trying to think abouthow much, and time is not the
best way to look at it, butcertainly the younger a child is
, I think the more effective wayit is to think about it.
How much time is my childspending in virtual spaces?

(26:22):
And yes, watching Peppa Pigcounts as a virtual space.
Right, as soon as they're onthat device.
They can't be in two places atthe same time.
They're in a virtual space, andhow much time are they sort of
spending offline with you, withtheir caregiver, with their
siblings if they have any, withother kids, with other adults,
with strangers out on the street?
Right, they take the village,and I think that's an important

(26:43):
saying.
That's always going to be true.
We want to make sure that weexpose children to those real
life situations, because even asthis world becomes increasingly
tech saturated I think becauseof AI, in a very kind of weird,
maybe unexpected, way, we aregoing to need to learn how to be
more human if we're going towant to control these platforms

(27:06):
and these tools and really makesure that we're on top.
I think it's becoming moreimportant than ever, really, if
we're sort of going to kind oftake control of the situation.
So that's one of the most basicways of thinking about it.
Another approach that we haveand this comes from my work at
LineWise this is our kind offoundational approach to online
safety management.
We call it the ABC of onlinesafety management.

(27:28):
I mentioned a couple of theseelements already, but the A
there stands for access.
How do we manage our children'saccess to technology?
Again, this is going to lookdifferent when they're two as
compared to when they're sevenand when they're 15 and so on.
But how do we do that in anage-appropriate way?
And I would say age-appropriateis one of the key phrases that
I use.
That, I think, is one of themost important ones when we're

(27:49):
trying to decide what types ofinteractions our children should
have with technology and withother users on the internet.
So how are we managing thataccess?
And the second one, the B, isthe boundaries.
So they're in these virtualspaces, they're interacting with
them in age-appropriate ways,but now we want to create
boundaries so we don't just wantto say spend any old time that

(28:10):
you want, do anything that youwant, visit any platform you
want, consume any kind ofcontent you want or share any
kind of content.
We want to create some of thosehealthy boundaries and using
family agreement or a techagreement I know a lot of people
recommend that it's a reallynice way of doing that and it
can be a very simple approachand you can make it as
complicated as you like and it'simportant to just stay very

(28:31):
agile there.
So we don't want to have thesame kind of tech agreement when
our child is two as whenthey're eight.
Right, it needs to grow, itneeds to change as our child is
changing and kind of as they'reproving to us that they're more
capable of being independent andhaving more agency while
they're online, and so we reallywant to support them through
that.
And then the final piece, the C,is really something that we can

(28:53):
start doing with kids.
You know, as early as possible,even kind of before they become
verbal, is to haveconversations with them, to
really talk to them about all ofthese things and not only ask
questions around how was soccerpractice?
Or how was the sleepover?
How was that math test?
But you know, did anythingdramatic happen on Snapchat
today?
And what was the funniest memeyou saw?

(29:14):
And what was the silliestTikTok that you saw today?
And you know, there are lots ofdifferent ways that we can
incorporate these elements oftheir digital life into the
conversations that we have andalso, by the way, talk about our
own struggles.
That's, I think, one of the keythings that I and a lot of other
people in this space recommend.
We are all struggling with this, for every parent who says my

(29:37):
child's on their device too much.
There's a child who says thesame thing about the parent,
right, and as adults, we're notfully aware of that, which is
completely understandable, right?
We're not, as human beings, asself-aware as we'd like to be,
so really think of this aspartnering up with your child,
as something that is a sharedstruggle.
We're all trying to find what itmeans to be tech balanced, and

(30:01):
how much Instagram is too much,and what are all the things I do
and don't want to use chat, gbdfor, and just so many other
things.
We're all trying to negotiatethis.
So I think that's a reallystrong, powerful point of
compassion where we can cometogether with our kids, make
sure that they understand thatwe're also struggling, but use
things like the family contractor built together screen time

(30:21):
routine so that we can reallyhelp each other and kind of hold
each other accountable.
A really fun thing to do if youhave a teenager, if you're bold
enough, is to ask them to set aboundary or two on your own use
of tech, and you might findsurprising things coming out
from that.
I think it will help parents tobecome more aware of their own

(30:41):
technology use as well and keepthat in mind as they try to
negotiate this whole questionaround screen time and what's
too much tech and what's toolittle.
And you know how do we do thisin a healthy way?

I love that.
I mean, that is so practicaland just so easy to follow and I
think, like for all ourlisteners and this is something
that's going to be great likefor me to share also, even with
the parents in my district, tooas well, it's when we do have
these conversations, to be ableto share that clip, because
that's really going to help themout, because I think one of the
biggest things again going backto the conversations that we
have it's always theconversation piece how do I
bring this up?
I don't feel comfortable withthis, and so on.

(31:22):
So I really love that you gaveyou know, just some practical
advice as far as building thatpartnership, and I think that's
something that is very importantso that the child understands
that it's not just somethingthat is imposed on them, but
that it's a struggle that is,like you said, a common struggle
, and we're both going to bedoing this and going back to the

(31:42):
parent side is, yes, you loseyourself in those things and
maybe you try and justify andsay, well, this is different,
this is work related.
This is something that I haveto use and do all the time, as
opposed to, maybe, what they'redoing, which is just, you know,
being online and just being, youknow, on social media, but at
the same time, you know, evenfor the parent, there is a need

(32:03):
for that digital wellnesscomponent too as well.
And then, like you mentioned,having that family time and
being able to have thoseconversations.
So I want to ask you you know,kind of talking a little bit
more about that.
As far as the conversationpiece, I know when I share with
parents, I'll have somewonderful resources, either in
English or Spanish or whateverlanguage they needed translated,

(32:24):
and I'll pick, like just somesmall little articles that they
feel comfortable with, just acouple of tips.
But in your experience thatyou've had, you know, many years
and what you've done throughLineWise, what are some ways
that parents can also bring thistopic up to be able to speak
with their child and talk tothem about that digital wellness

(32:45):
piece?
Because let's just assume, youknow, not many parents talk to
the students at a, you know,very young age.
So let's say, now they've got amiddle school student and now
they're seeing that there's achange in attitude or a change
in behavior, what is a great wayfor a parent to start that
conversation?

Yeah, one of the sort of easiest things that
I recommend to parents whoattend our educational webinars
is use this webinar, the factthat you attended an educational
session like this, or if youread an article or you see a
video or you know whatever it is, you read a book use that as a
starting point, especially ifyou've never ever kind of

(33:25):
brought this up to your child orinside the home.
Your child might think like,why are you suddenly interested
in this?
Why do you care?
And they might also kind of notbe crazy about that idea
because they'll figure.
Well, I could get away withthings so far because mom or dad
or whoever you know didn't knowwhat was going on.
Now they're kind of getting asense of you know what's going
on here, but use something likethat as kind of an awareness

(33:46):
piece, also to share the factthat you weren't really aware of
all of the intricacies ofwhat's going on.
I spoke to a parent a couple ofdays ago who said they didn't
know what Gemini was untilrelatively recently, because
they don't have any need for itthey don't spend a lot of time
on social media and they justdidn't know.
And then suddenly this thingcame up, or an article or an

(34:07):
alert or something like that.
That was talking about Geminiand they were like it blew my
mind because I had no idea thatit even existed, let alone that
my kids might potentially beusing it.
You know, have the ability todo all of these incredible
things with that tool.
So the parents often don't know.
Kids know that we don't knowalso, so we don't need to lie or
pretend.

(34:27):
I mean, it's okay to say thatwe don't and I think it's okay
to say that we are trying toimprove our knowledge and our
awareness and that we, you know,attend workshops or seminars,
that we read books or articles.
We hear things about different.
You know trends or risks orbenefits to fun things as well.
So you can ask your kids, youknow, what's the latest trend on
TikTok or what you know, what'sa recent like funny phrase or

(34:50):
an expression or a term that youknow that I definitely won't
know what it means, but it'svery much kind of in right now.
You know, educate me, teach mesome of your lingo.
Or if you have a gamer at home,you know, one of the biggest
recommendations there is toco-play with them, ask them
about the games that they'reinterested in and then ask them
if they can teach you some stuffand ask them about their

(35:13):
journey.
You know, of playing that game.
They would have to haveovercome a lot of obstacles
probably to get to where theyare.
There would have been a lot ofskills they had to pick up on.
Ask them about that, you know.
Ask them to invite you intothat space as much as they're
comfortable and teach you alittle bit about what goes on
there.
So any opportunity that youhave like that to really kind of
come alongside them, as opposedto that typical, you know, put

(35:36):
your phone down or turn it offor uninstall the app, or you
know some of those more kind ofcombative ways right, which we
sort of try to connect with ourkids over this.
I think any of those things canbe really useful.
If you've seen a movie or a TVshow, or maybe your child's
working on a particular projectin school, there's going to be a
tech element in it.

(35:56):
Again, going back to how wewould have used tech when we
were younger, one of the thingsI find really interesting about
movies and TV shows nowadays isthat technology is very much
present and it's visible, and Ithink back to shows like, say,
friends, there were no phonesaround, there were no
smartphones, there was anoccasional you know beeper again
or something like that, buttech was nowhere to be seen,

(36:17):
whereas now it's kind ofeverywhere right, and we can
make these observationseverywhere about the way that it
impacts us.
Whether you're going to talkabout Uber as an app or DoorDash
or Amazon ordering or whatever,it's absolutely everywhere, and
I think parents can kind ofshift their perspective a little
bit and maybe not, hopefully,be as sort of scared or nervous

(36:39):
or apprehensive about bringingthese topics up.
There are, I think, a lot ofdifferent opportunities to do
that and there are lots of ways,I think, of doing it in a
playful kind of way, in a gentlekind of way, where it isn't
about that kind of, you know,kind of butting heads and trying
to enforce some kind of rulesor being kind of overwhelmed or

(37:00):
scared or alarmed about what'sgoing on online, but again,
really trying to come upalongside our kids and just
trying to initially show alittle bit of curiosity and
having that sort of beginner'smindset, if you will both
concepts that actually come fromBuddhism and other ancient
traditions you know howbeneficial it can be to approach

(37:21):
a topic that you maybe alreadyhave some preconceived notions
about, kind of from a blankslate, and I think that's a good
tip for parents.
They'll have a lot ofpreconceived notions that are
probably negative when it comesto their children's tech use.
They'll probably be reallyafraid because they likely would
have heard the worst version ofall of these things in the
media and social media and so on, so they'll be afraid this.

(37:53):
But my child's a digital native.
I can ask them questions aboutFortnite or TikTok or chat, gpt
or how they're using tech atschool or whatever the case is,
and learn a little bit.
And kids, especially as theyget older, they love it when we
don't know things and when theycan teach us things and when
they can explain things to usand when we come at it from that
perspective of you're youngerbut you know more about this
than I do.
So I think that's kind of oneperspective shift that I think

(38:15):
parents can find really helpful.

Oh, I love that.
I love that you really nailedit.
There's so much gold andnuggets there that I'm
definitely going to pull forthose soundbites.
But thank you so much becausethat was definitely very helpful
and very thorough and I thinkfor a lot of parents that just
it's a great start and a greatbeginning and I love the fact
that I mean you share theseexperiences, that this is what
parents get to see when theyattend a LineWise webinar and

(38:40):
these are the things that theyget to learn and to be able to
just have those conversationsand regardless.
Many times I think that parentsmay feel, like I mentioned
earlier, it's like man, I didn'tstart off that young.
Now they're in middle school ormaybe they're in high school,
but it's never too late.
Like I always tell my parentsthat I work with, I was like,
even today, if we can get thestudents to think like for a

(39:02):
split second before they clicksend or before they click post
or before they send that messagethat you know can make a big
difference between eitherkeeping the doors open or
closing a lot of doors based onthe type of text or the type of
content that was posted, because, as we all know, a lot of that
stuff can come back and hauntyou later on, and we definitely

(39:23):
don't want our students or ourchildren to close doors on
themselves.
So, parents, regardless of theage, it's never too late, and
you just heard some wonderfulsound advice from Teodora that
she shared with you, so pleasemake sure that you listen to
that and you check out some ofthose webinars.
So, teodora, I'm just going toshift just the conversation a

(39:43):
little bit over, because I wantto get into the research aspect
of this.
I know that you've been doingthis for well over 10 years and
research is definitely part ofwhat you do, so I want to ask
you if you can discuss some ofthe most significant findings of
your research or practiceregarding children's digital
experiences.

Yeah, sure.
So again, I mentioned earlier,there's been some of these big
shifts between just the ways inwhich we spend time online and
the ways in which young peoplespend time online, and we had
Facebook kind of be one of theleaders in terms of these online
spaces and then, about five orsix or seven years ago, it
really wasn't cool anymore foryoung people to be on Facebook

(40:31):
and then they shifted into othervirtual spaces.
And then now, over the pastsort of you know couple of years
or however long it's been sinceChatGPT has emerged, we're
again we're seeing that shift interms of, you know, what
children are doing and wherethey're spending their time.
So certainly, social media isstill a sort of an ever, you
know, present entity in theirlives.

(40:52):
That's still where theycommunicate with their friends,
where they gather a lot ofinformation about different
things, where they sometimesseek out help when they need it,
where they find communitiesthat are perhaps hard for them
to find in person, depending onwhere they're living and what
kind of resources exist in theirenvironment.
It's the space that they enjoywhen it comes to just having fun

(41:14):
and just for, you know, sort ofbasic entertainment purposes,
nothing more complicated thanthat.
So we, you know, we still seethe big players continuing to be
the big players like YouTube,tiktok, snapchat, instagram,
those are, you know, those aredefinitely the sort of the main
most popular ones and the shiftthat we've started seeing over
the past I would say maybe ayear, sort of a year and a half

(41:34):
ago, it is quite recent, but itis this increase in use of
AI-powered platforms and AItools, not only the ones like
ChatGPT or Copilot or Gemini,right, depending on sort of what
your school is using, what yourschool district is asking your
students to use, but using someof these more sort of
companion-based orcharacter-based AI chatbots as

(41:57):
well.
So ones like Replica, thosemight be ones that people are
familiar with, characterai aswell, that is, you know,
receives negative attention,unfortunately, you know, in the
news.
But platforms like that thatare really designed to be highly
personalized, highly customized, to be very emotive, very
engaging and to really go along,if you will, with sort of

(42:21):
whatever it is that we desire inthat moment.
And so we're seeing these fewkey trends in terms of why kids
are using these platforms, andone reason is definitely to seek
advice, and we've seen thatfrom our own sort of internal
data, our own conversations withour districts.
But if you look at some of thegreat research Common Sense
Media has done as well, you'llbe able to see some of those

(42:41):
more detailed illustrations ofhow and why kids are using these
and the different types ofadvice that they're seeking out,
and it's everything from, youknow, some serious mental
health-related advice torelationship advice.
I had this fight with mypartner.
Was I right or were they right?
What should I have said next?
And we see young adults doingthis as well.
Companionship is another verybig one and again, it's

(43:05):
something like 20% 25% of youngpeople at this point using AI
companion bots for this reason,many of them using it out of
pure boredom.
So the Common Sense Mediareport indicated that about 45%
of teens say that's the reasonwhy they go to these bots, but
many of them are exploring theiremotions, their behaviors, the
things that they would otherwisebe doing sort of with other

(43:26):
human beings, with their humanfriends.
They're doing that now in thesevirtual spaces and they're
discussing all kinds of topicsAgain, one of the things that
we're seeing internally, butwe're also seeing this emerge
through some of the legislation.
Places like Connecticut is oneof the most recent states that
is looking into making sure thatchildren are kept safe in the
context of chatbots that willengage in very sexually explicit

(43:49):
conversations with them.
It's something that we'reseeing with our partner
districts as well.
So some pretty serious, veryadult-like interactions
happening in these virtualspaces and children really using
these spaces that they think ofas quite safe, very
nonjudgmental, very easy toaccess in most cases free to

(44:09):
access as well.
They see them as spaces thatare really just sort of easy to
be in, to exist in and to engagewith over these questions
around their relationships,around their mental health and
well-being, around emotionalstates like boredom, around
states like creativity, though,as well.
So we are seeing the positivesthere as well, right, obviously,
the opportunities to use theseplatforms for learning, for

(44:32):
academic success.
We've heard all the wonderfulthings, right, and all the
amazing ways in which theseplatforms can help us, but there
are some of these other trendsand patterns that are starting
to emerge that are not so muchfocused on some of those issues
around using these platforms foracademic purposes.
That is one of the key trendsas well, but we're seeing some

(44:55):
of these others that, frankly, Iam more, I would say, both
interested in and worried aboutthat touch upon well-being, that
touch upon mental health.
They touch upon emotionalintelligence, social health,
social intelligence as well, andthis is where we see some of
these online safety risks nowstart to emerge.

(45:15):
So we're not only having tothink about the ones in the
context of social media we kindof know what those are already
but we're now seeing them emergethrough these AI-powered
platforms as well.
The amplification of mis anddisinformation.
We're seeing deepfakes, we'reseeing these sort of new ways in
which these tools can be usedin ways that we haven't really
seen before, and so we're reallyhaving to think on our feet and

(45:39):
be very quick in terms ofunderstanding children's
behavior on these platforms andin these virtual spaces and then
really come up with ways asquickly as we can to help both
the school district but help thefamilies as well.
And again, it really empoweredthe whole community, first and
foremost to make sure that theyunderstand how young people are
using these platforms, then tounderstand why they're using

(46:02):
them in those ways.
So why are they so drawn tothem?
Why do they find them just soappropriate and satisfying,
given the needs that they have?
And then that question of okay,and then what do we do about
that?
So how do we now think about,for example, those ABCs in the
context of AI?
And how do we now think abouttech balance in the context of
AI, where, when it's very likelythat many of us are going to

(46:24):
have at least one AI companionof some description in the next
I would say six to 12 months,really, even if it's just sort
of a personal assistant type,right, most of us are going to
start again bonding, attaching,if you will, to these character
bots, for a number of differentreasons.
We're seeing our young peoplealready start to do that in some

(46:46):
pretty significant ways, and so, again, this is where my
passion for this work reallycomes out.
It's one of the things that,again, interests and worries me
the most.
I don't want us to miss theboat on this one, because I
think we did a little bit.
When it comes to social media,and we're trying to kind of
scramble and catch up and try,we're kind of at the forefront

(47:06):
of it.
I still think we have thatopportunity to very quickly,
though, become aware of what theissues are and then really
think about how can we createsafe spaces within the classroom
, within the home, everywhere inbetween to make sure that
children interact with theseagain synthetic entities.

(47:27):
There are lots of differentways we can call them in really
safe and healthy and responsibleways.

Wow, thank you so much.
I really appreciate that.
That was just, you know, a lotof great things happening
because, like you said, you knowwe're hearing a lot about
character AI.
You know, we knew what happenedto Suels, you know.
And we saw Megan Garcia.
I saw that little brief YouTubevideo where she described what
was happening.
And that's just the importanceof you know, being able to see

(47:53):
what it is that your child isdoing, how they are engaging
with social media and, like Isaid, it's never too late to get
that conversation going.
And, of course, coming back toand I love what you keep
referring back to the ABCs,because that's so practical, but
I mean, it's never too late tostart having those conversations
.
But you're right, you know, itjust seems like there is a
scramble because of what wedidn't see was going to happen.

(48:17):
You know, with just socialmedia Now it's going to be, or
grow that much moreexponentially now with AI and
the AI companions and the botsand learning to distinguish.
You know that this is aparasocial relationship.
It's not a truly socialrelationship where you're
one-on-one speaking to somebody,and that, too, can be very

(48:38):
dangerous.
So, thank you so much for thatwonderful share.
So, teodora, before we startwrapping up, you know I always
love to end the show with thelast three questions.
Well, teodora, thank you somuch for the wealth of knowledge
and information that you sharedwith us.
You know talking about, youknow practical steps.
You know, as far as havingthose conversations with your

(48:59):
child about social media,additional support or, if I need
some additional help, linewisethey offer some webinars for
parents and then, of course, youcan make those connections
there on the LineWise websitewhich we will link in the show

(49:19):
notes too as well where you cango ahead and visit and see their
resources and see what would beavailable to you to get that
additional support and help, andnot only for parents but for
school districts as well.
You know, as you know, we aregoing through some very
interesting times, and digitalwellness should definitely not
fall by the wayside at allwhatsoever, so that's something
we definitely need to take careof.

(49:40):
So, teodora, thank you so muchfor again some wonderful shares,
but before we wrap up, I alwayslove to end the show with the
last three questions, sohopefully you are ready.
So here we go.
Question number one as we know,every superhero has a pain
point or a weakness.
So for Superman, thatkryptonite was his weakness.
So I want to ask you, in thecurrent state of, I guess,

(50:03):
digital wellness, I want to askyou what would you say is your
current digital wellness?
Kryptonite.

That's a tough question.
I was trying to think about itin preparation for our
conversation and I was thinkingthere is one particular sort of
thing that I see, or that Inotice out there in the world
that I feel like the impact ithas is.
I feel like it weakens my spirit.
It makes me feel like I'm kindof I'm failing, I'm not doing

(50:35):
enough if I'm not creating thisparticular change in behavior.
And that will be these momentswhen we hear about children who
have had really horribleexperiences as a result of using
whether it's character chatbots, whether it's a particular
social media platform,statistics around how much time,

(50:57):
say, two or three orfour-year-olds are spending on
platforms like TikTok that areentirely inappropriate for them.
It's learning about those sortof pieces of research or those
insights that come through interms of how children are
interacting with digital spacesand unhealthy ways.
Some of them do, like I said,sort of weaken my spirit and

(51:21):
make me feel like this is kindof everything is lost, there's
no hope left.
Luckily, I recover very quicklyafter that, but those are, I
think, probably my kryptonite.
Those are the things that kindof just temporarily sort of
bring me down a little bit andkind of cause me to lose some
hope.

Yeah, no, and that makes perfect sense.
But I'm thankful that you aredoing what you're doing and what
you are doing and sharing thiswonderful information not only
in platforms or, you know,conferences such as South by
Southwest, but through webinars,through this podcast, that
everything that you are sharingis a valuable resource that can

(52:00):
help make a difference in thelife of a family.
So that is something that isvery commendable and I know that
it's hard because we definitelywant to do good for everybody,
but, trust me, you're doing awonderful job and I just want to
let you know that I am thankfulbecause being able to speak
with you just gives me moreconfidence to be able to share

(52:23):
these amazing things that you'resharing with our parents too,
and pass that along.
So, in a way, you're having aprofound effect and it's an
extended effect through the workthat you're doing.
So thank you so much for that.
I want to ask question numbertwo now is if you could have a
billboard with anything on it,what would it be and why?

I think I would probably I'm a huge kind
of art fan If I hadn't studiedpsychology.
I would have studied arthistory, so I love.
You know, museums are my happyplace, so I think if I could put
anything on a billboard thereare a couple of different things
that sort of I was thinkingabout.
One would be pulling up areally beautiful painting or a
photograph and just putting thewords you are human on it,

(53:05):
because I think we're movingfurther and further away from
what it means to be human andwhat it means to kind of act,
show up in this world as a human.
We're starting to use, I wouldsay, a few too many tools in
order to be creative and beproductive.
We're not using our own sort ofhands and eyes and brains
enough.
That would mainly be one.

(53:26):
The other option would be aquote and I'm just going to
paraphrase it here by thephilosopher Seneca.
That was really kind of it wasperspective shifting for me
around time and the concept oftime.
I think, again, technologyreally disrupts our concept of
time, how we look at how muchtime we have, and Seneca said
that it's not so much that wedon't have enough time in life,

(53:48):
it's that we're wasting a lot ofit.
So it's a question of how we'reusing it, and for me that was a
really interesting perspectiveshift, sort of as somewhat sort
of negative and fatalistic asthat sounds.
I think there's some hope inthat that it's really not about
how much time there is as kindof absolute value.
It's really all about ourperceptions, and perceptions are

(54:09):
something that we canabsolutely change and have an
impact on.

Love it.
Those are two wonderfulbillboards that I can definitely
see, one right after another.
Wonderful, all right.
And my last question, teodora,for you is if you could switch
places with a single person fora day, it could be anybody who
would it be, and why?

I was trying to think about this one as well,
and nothing was coming up forme.
In the present moment I wasthinking back to, I would love
to have been, you know, leonardoda Vinci for a day, or Queen
Elizabeth I or I don't know SirIsaac Newton or JRR Tolkien.
I would want to be inside theirbrains and think the way they

(54:52):
were thinking and make decisionsthe way they were making their
decisions and make discoveriesthe way they made them, because
I feel like that must have been.
They may not have been aware ofit at the time, but for us,
obviously, observing them fromthis amount of distance, it's
really an incredible thing whatthey were able to accomplish.
But when I was thinking interms of a more kind of modern

(55:12):
take on that, I'm drawn to.
Again, going back to art, I'mdrawn to, I think, artists and
performers who are able to tapinto different emotional planes
or heightened emotional states,or who really know how to tap
into emotions and how to expressthem.
So I mean, for people who knowme really well, they won't be
surprised that it would besomeone like Cher, who is one of

(55:34):
my absolute icons, or otherperformers like, now, the late
Tina Turner, dolly Parton's,another favorite of mine.
These are women who, yeah, Ithink of as being incredibly
creative, as being incrediblyinspired, as having this.
Going back to tools, they havethis tool, or maybe more of a
talent, to tap into somethingthat's incredibly human and

(55:56):
elevate it and enable all of usto tap into the same thing as
well.
So, talking about, you know,superheroes and superpowers, I
think there are very few powersoutside of maybe the work that
educators do, that doctors do,that are that beneficial to the
human race.
So I think it would be somebodylike that.

Excellent, great answer.
Well, tadara, it has been anhonor and a pleasure to speak
with you today.
Thank you so much for sharingso much information and
wonderful information, wonderfulresources.
This is definitely going to bea wonderful podcast that I'm
definitely going to enjoy.
You know, cleaning up andediting and pushing out, because
it's definitely something ofvalue for our parents today and

(56:39):
immediately.
So I really appreciate that.
And before we wrap up, teodora,can you please share with our
audience members how they may beable to connect with you?
You know whether on socialmedia, through AlignWise, let us
know, we'd love to connect.

Sure, yeah, so definitely AlignWisecom.
I would direct people to gothere to learn a little bit more
again about the different waysin which we support the
communities that we work with.
For those of you who listen tothis whole conversation, you
probably won't be surprised toknow that I'm not very present
on social media.
I'm not particularly interestedin social media for myself.
I'm interested in how otherpeople use it.

(57:16):
But you will be able to find meon LinkedIn.
If you just do a search for myfirst and last name, you'll be
able to find me there.
I am somewhat reluctantly activethere, but I do always
encourage people to connectthere.
I want to know more about whatother people think about the
topics we talked about.
I want to know more about whatother people think about the
topics we talked about.
I want to know what they'redoing about them, if they need

(57:37):
any additional help, anyadditional resources.
That's really all I'm about,both in my role at LineWise
generally, what I do, what I'vebeen doing for the past again
couple of decades being in thesevarious spaces.
I want to try and help peopleas much as possible and really
that's the only reason why I'lluse social media.

Excellent.
Well, teodora, thank you somuch.
And all those links.
They'll definitely be in theshow notes.
So, for all our listeners,thank you, as always, for your
support and please make surethat you head over to our
website at myedtechlife that'smyedtechlife where you can check
out this amazing episode andthe other 325 wonderful episodes

(58:16):
where, I promise you, you willfind some knowledge nuggets that
you can sprinkle onto what youare already doing.
Great and, as always, thank you.
Thank you from the bottom of myheart for all of your support
and until next time, my friends,don't forget, stay techie,
thank you.

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