Episode 327: Holly Owens

Episode 327:  Learning & Development, Instructional Design, and AI Talk with Holly Owens

 In this episode, I had the honor of chatting with Holly Owens, host of EdUp EdTech, Director of Growth Marketing at Yellowdig, and all-around L&D powerhouse. We talk about everything from instructional design to AI in learning, what "proficiency" really means, and how educators can pivot into the world of L&D with confidence.

If you're an educator, learning designer, or someone navigating the fast-moving world of EdTech, this one's packed with takeaways you’ll want to keep coming back to.

We go deep on human-first learning, ethical red flags with AI, and the importance of not letting imposter syndrome get in your way. Whether you’re pivoting careers or just trying to stay ahead of the curve, Holly brings the fire.

🔗 Connect with Holly on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hollyowens/
🎧 Listen to the EdUp EdTech Podcast: https://www.edupedtech.com/

👇 Check out the full breakdown and timestamps below:

⏱️ Timestamps:

00:00 – Welcome and intro
 01:00 – Meet Holly Owens
 03:00 – Holly’s journey from K-12 to L&D
 05:30 – From marketing to education and vice versa
 07:00 – The power of knowing your learners
 09:00 – Human-first learning and why it matters
 11:00 – Helping educators pivot and grow
 14:00 – AI in learning: Hype vs. reality
 17:00 – TruePeer and other AI tools Holly’s using
 19:00 – Evaluating EdTech through an accessibility lens
 21:00 – When to use AI—and when not to
 24:00 – Losing your voice to AI? Here's Holly’s take
 26:30 – AI and the emotional gap
 28:00 – Digital wellness and AI companions
 31:00 – What does proficiency in EdTech really mean?
 33:00 – Navigating tech with teacher instincts
 36:00 – Change management in the L&D world
 38:00 – Ethical red flags in instructional design
 40:00 – Not every problem needs a training
 42:00 – AI and automation: What’s next?
 44:00 – What skills are still uniquely human?
 46:00 – Where to connect with Holly
 47:00 – Rapid-fire Q&A: Kryptonite, billboards, and Taylor Swift?

🙏 A huge thanks to our amazing sponsors:
 Book Creator | Eduaide.AI | Yellowdig

💻 Visit https://www.myedtech.life for more episodes, resources, and guest spotlights.

🎧 Until next time… Stay Techie!

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Episode Transcript

Fonz Mendoza (00:30):
Hello everybody and welcome to another great
episode of my EdTech Life.
Thank you so much for joiningus on this wonderful day and, as
always, wherever it is thatyou're joining us from around
the world.
Thank you for your support.
We appreciate all the likes,the shares, the follows.
Thank you so much for all thelovely messages and the comments
and for sharing our content andfinding value in our content.

(00:52):
Thank you, as always, from thebottom of my heart.
As you know, we do what we dofor you to bring you amazing
conversations, and today is nodifferent than any other episode
.
Today I have a wonderful guestthat I have been following on
LinkedIn for quite a while,probably well, more more than a
year now.
She puts out amazing content.

(01:13):
She really puts herself outthere, but she also gives great
strategies and great learningabout L and D and ID and I know
we're talking acronyms right now, but we'll definitely break
that down right now in just asecond.
But I would love to welcome tothe show today Holly Owens.
Holly, how are you doing today?
I'm doing great.
Fonz, how are you?
I'm doing wonderful.

(01:39):
And like I mentioned, just alongtime follower, a big fan of
your work and also yeah, also Ido want to share.
Thank you so much for yoursupport because I know you're
always you know engaging withthe post you're always sharing,
and also thank you so much forall the support through
Yellowdig, as well as being oneof our show sponsors.
So I really appreciate youseeing value in what we do and

(02:00):
just bringing theseconversations into our education
space to continue to grow.
So, thank you so much.
But, holly, before we getstarted and dive in into the
world of L&D and ID and, ofcourse, ai so talk about an
alphabet soup there Can you giveus a little brief introduction
and what your context is withinthe education space?

Holly Owens (02:22):
Absolutely so.
My context within the educationspace currently is higher
education, so working atYellowdig as a growth marketer,
our main ICP or target client ishigher education students and
faculty.
So I started out my career as aK-12 teacher, as many guests of
your show have, and many peoplethat listen to my show are also

(02:44):
.
So then from there, I switchedover into e-learning developer
with the government for aboutsix months and then I went to
higher education as aninstructional designer,
instructional technologist,doing all the ed tech trainings,
helping people design courses,spent the better part of my
career in higher education, youknow, started teaching in higher
education as well.

(03:04):
I've been adjuncting since 2012.
I currently work at twirrelluniversity, uh, which is a
university based in new york,manhattan, uh, remote of course,
because I'm in wilmington,north carolina, um.
And then after higher education, I got into uh instructional
design.
I was an online programmanagement company, which has a
corporate field but works withinstitutions to stand up online

(03:28):
courses and programs,accelerated courses and programs
.
Then, after that it was reallya big surprise and a lot of fun
I got a role at Amazon.
So I worked for Amazon Pharmacyfor about two years as a
corporate ID and, as most of youknow, amazon decided to RTO,
which equals return to office,and I'm a remote person so that

(03:50):
wasn't gonna happen.
So I did a little bit of like abrief freelance thing and then
Sean F Rory, the CEO and founderof Yellowdig, brought me on as
like a marketing person and thenpromoted me to the director of
growth marketing based off ofall my experience he's been on
my show and we just, you know,just have her from there.
I didn't apply for the role.

(04:10):
So here I am no marketingdegree sitting in a marketing
role, have a vast amount ofinstructional design experience,
ed tech, all the differentthings.
You know my degrees are inthose different areas, but I do
a variety of different things.
As you said out on LinkedIn, Ido job postings and I've really
built a large following there ofhelping people.

Fonz Mendoza (04:33):
I love it and with that background, I mean you've
seen pretty much a little bit ofeverything and a lot more, and
so I love that you bring thatlens and so many different
perspectives.
As far as you know the learningand development and, of course,
instructional design, because Imean working with so many
different companies and avariety of learners, I mean you

(04:55):
really really have to know yourlearners and as you go from area
to area, I mean you really needto know who your audience is,
how they learn and things thatare easiest for them.
And, to be honest with you, Ireally like that you mentioned
that here I am with no marketingdegree, and so it's very

(05:16):
interesting because it's alittle similar to myself and I
know I've mentioned it in a lotof episodes it's like I came
into education not with aneducation degree.
I actually came into educationwith a marketing degree.

Holly Owens (05:29):
So we're the opposite.

Fonz Mendoza (05:30):
Yeah, so the opposite, but it falls in line
with what you said.
It's like here I am being incharge of marketing, but for me,
marketing and what I learnedthrough sales in my four years
of experience and knowingcustomers, I truly, truly
believe that that has helped mebe very successful in the
classroom.
Not knowing, let's say, theeducation theory.

(05:53):
Of course, as you go throughthe years you start learning
that, you start building up yourskill set within the education
setting.
But at the end of the day Ialways saw my classroom is
customer first, my students.
I have 30 different customersthat I have to sell a subject to
.
In that case, when I firststarted, it was algebra.

(06:14):
So I had 30 customers I had tosell algebra to and not
everybody bought it the exactsame way.
So I had people here thatwanted cup holders, people here
that didn't want cup holders andthings of that sort.
But it's all a matter ofleveraging their strengths and
you're really it's interestingbecause in math we're trying to
solve problems, but in realityI'm trying to solve their
problem, to help them solvethose problems.

(06:36):
So it's very interesting.
Like I said, that you mentionedknowing your customers.
I think that's something thatis very.
It just goes back to the basicsof it in anything that we do,
and I think that that'sfantastic.
And, of course, your techbackground.
I mean geez chef's kiss to that, because I know that that helps
you stay at the forefront of alot of the things that you're

(06:57):
currently doing, so I love that.
That's multiple hats rightthere, for sure.

Holly Owens (07:02):
Yeah, yeah, you really got to know the ecosystem
right.
You got to be in it, you got to.
If you are in the selling sideof things, you have to
understand what's happeninginternally and what the
different moving parts thatexist, the barriers, the
challenges, in order for you tosell, quote, unquote the
technology and get it integratedinto the institution.
So we are actually likeexamples of how things, how

(07:24):
transferable skills betweendifferent industries are like.
It does happen.
I know some people are like,well, if I don't have a degree
or if I don't have this insertsense skill here, I can't do
this job.
I think that's a blocker formany people and that's the
imposter syndrome creeping in.
But you and I are primeexamples.
Marketing degree, ed tech, anot marketing degree in ed tech.

Fonz Mendoza (07:47):
Yes.

Holly Owens (07:48):
Yeah, we're great examples.

Fonz Mendoza (07:49):
Exactly.
And you know, 18 years later, Imean believe it or not, like I
always tell people, it's like Inever expected to go into
education.
As a matter of fact, it wasnever at the forefront for me,
it's like.
For me it was like, oh,business, finance, I'm going to
go make millions of dollars andtake care of my parents and do
all of this.
But I landed in education and Iabsolutely fell in love with it
.
There was just something aboutit.

(08:10):
And 18 years later, here I am,and probably within the next
month I'll be defending mydissertation, and I was like who
would have thought?
Who would have thought, youknow, like you mentioned?
And, and so I want to touch alittle bit about what you said.
I know we'll get into the meatof it, but I think that this is
very important.
That you mentioned is manytimes people think, well, I
don't have that specific orparticular skill, and that

(08:33):
imposter syndrome sets in.
But oftentimes maybe we don'tsee that we do have that skill,
because maybe it plays outdifferent whether you're in a
classroom, or it plays outdifferent whether you're in
corporate or whether you're insales.
But there is thattransferability.
And so one thing that I alwaysrecommend and even for myself,
that I learned some wise words,and I don't know where I picked

(08:54):
them up from is don't disqualifyyourself, let them disqualify
you.
So you go ahead and put thatapp in.
You go ahead and you know,update that resume and put in
that application and, you know,don't let the imposter syndrome
kick in.
So and which is something thatwe'll talk a little bit about
now because one of the thingsthat you do on LinkedIn and you

(09:15):
do so well, like you mentionedis you really put yourself out
there.
It's the human first learningstrategist.
That's something that you putthere, you know continually, and
you always have this humanconnection with so many people
as far as job postings andthings of that sort.
But I want to ask you, you know, as far as that is concerned,
tell me a little bit about that.

(09:36):
Like, what is it that you loveabout helping you know, of
course, our learners and oureducators and all our friends
there on LinkedIn?
What is it that really drivesthat for you?

Holly Owens (09:48):
I think it's just the part of giving back.
Like once you're at a certain,you reach a certain stage of
your life or a certain stage ofyour career, it's important to
kind of mentor the people whoare coming up and offering that
opportunity.
It's kind of like when you havea kid, you don't want them to
make the same mistakes that youmade in life, so you mentor them
to do things differently thanyou did, and that's how I feel.

(10:10):
Not that the linkedin communityare my children, because that's
too many children, but I feellike there is a, there's a um,
there's a purpose there, uh, toshare my experiences, share the
tips.
Don't keep things a secret.
That's one of the things I loveabout the L&D community is
we're all so open.
I'm an L&D.
Is learning and development ifyou haven't picked that up yet

(10:32):
is we're all so open and willingto share our experiences.
And everybody's is different,but you'll see some
commonalities across there.
So that's what really keeps megoing is giving people the
opportunity to step outside.
Teachers.
Really keeps me going is givingpeople the opportunity to step
outside.
You know, teachers come from alot of trauma and step outside
the classroom and do somethingdifferent.
That's still meaningful becauseteachers go into teaching
because they are a particularperson, they have particular

(10:54):
goals, they're intrinsicallymotivated, they understand
people, they're emotional, theythey're intuitive, they feel
different things and I thinkthat you know stepping into an
L&D role is a great one foreducators.
So, just to answer yourquestion, it's definitely time
to give back.
I'm middle age now, been in thegame like you for about 18
years and I'm just like you knowwhat it's important for me to

(11:16):
tell people like this is howthings are going in the job
market or this is how things aregoing in instructional design
and what's impacting us as anecosystem, and then offer them
actionable tips, advice,resources, things that they can
use to get started, where theydon't feel like, oh my gosh,
there's 10,000 different thingsto do.
Well, here are three things youcan do today.

(11:37):
Like bang, bang, bang.
Do those things today.
You know, I did a webinarrecently with iSpring on the id
make or the makeover of yourresume, and I can't tell you
like I just shared exactly whatI did and people were like
they're like blown away by someof these tips and how easy it is
.
Like you said, we have.
We create this barrier insideof ourselves that when we're

(12:00):
applying for roles or when we'retransitioning positions, that
we're not good enough, we're ourown worst critic, in the sense
that we are creating thismanifestation in our minds that
we're not going to be able to dothis or they're not going to
hire us because we don't havethis experience.
But in my mind, when that'shappening, you are interviewing
that company and organizationjust as much as they're

(12:20):
interviewing you, because youwant a place where you fit and
you feel passionate and theysupport you and your endeavors
just as much as you'resupporting them.
So leave imposter syndrome athome.
I get it all the time, so Ihave to be my own like, take my
own advice, but you know you'reinterviewing them just as much
as they're interviewing you.
So you want to be at a placewhere you fit.

Fonz Mendoza (12:41):
I love it, great tips and I know recently you've
been doing a lot more of that onLinkedIn and putting yourself
out there and really, like yousaid, one of the great things
that I love that you do is notonly you know, do you help by
putting up job postings, butalso just the fact that sharing
your own experiences and youknow, here are the things that
work, or here are the things tolook out for, and just practical
advice that for many that, likeyou said, those two to three

(13:06):
gems that they can sprinkle towhat they're already doing great
, can just really open up doorsand open up, you know,
opportunities for them andovercome that imposter syndrome,
like you mentioned.
But going back again to thehuman first learning strategist
tagline, you know of course wesee it on LinkedIn, on your
podcasting community, but I wantto ask you, what does that mean

(13:26):
to Holly Owens, especially whenright now we see AI getting
pushed or keep pushing thelearning?

Holly Owens (13:35):
Yeah, what I'll say is that it doesn't matter to me
how many different AIs, or ifwe step into, like this iRobot
scene of the Will Smith movieand AI is taking over things.
I recently and this is a fullside note I saw an article on
People Magazine that somebodyasked the AI bot.
They proposed to them likeengagement.

(13:58):
I'm like this is getting alittle bit out of hand here.
So one of the things I believeis that AI, you know a lot of
people feel like it's going toreplace you, but the emotional
aspect of the human mind, that'sirreplaceable.
So putting the human at thecenter of everything at the
conversation to me means beingable to still talk to each other
not through AI, but you know,as real individuals, and share

(14:22):
those human experiences isimportant because many times
you'll see out at LinkedIn oreven in some of the social media
platforms as people are justsharing their lives.
They're sharing with you whatthey want you to see.
They want you to see thebutterflies and the rainbows.
But really that's not how theexperience is, and I'll give you
an example Although I worked atAmazon, I didn't get the job

(14:44):
the first time.
Give you an example Although Iworked at Amazon.
I didn't get the job the firsttime.
I had to wait a whole year toget the instructional design job
at Amazon Pharmacy when I firstapplied for it, and in Toronto
County they got that, and thathappens more often than not.
So the human piece to me is justsupporting each other.
I mean, ai can only do that toa certain extent.
You know, with writingdifferent cover letters or

(15:05):
helping with your resume orsending different emails or
communication out.
There still needs to be thatpiece of you in the conversation
, the piece of you in the story,and your story is so unique to
anyone, like what you'veexperienced in life.
It's not just about yourprofessional life.
We also all, believe it or not,have personal lives.
I remember when my studentsused to see me in the grocery

(15:26):
store and they're like you,grocery shop.
I'm like, well, yeah, how am Isupposed to eat?
You think I could just like I'ma normal person.
I do different things outsideof the office, outside of the
podcast.
So I think bringing us back tothe basics and to that is really
connecting with each other onthis level, whether that be in a

(15:48):
virtual space, because some ofmy very best friends are I've
met through linkedin, like someof the people that I trust the
most, like luke hobson, heidikirby um, you know, just
interacting with those people,um, it's important to to do that
still, um, one of the thingsthat yellowdig, that we value,
is authentic connections andconversations with people.

(16:09):
You can sit down and I canguarantee, within probably 60 to
120 seconds of the conversation, you're going to find something
you have in common with theperson.
You're going to be like yourbrain's going to go off and be
like, oh yeah, I've had thatsimilar experience.
I don't think I can do that yet.

Fonz Mendoza (16:28):
Yet.
Yeah so but that's the like youmentioned and right now I know
there's a lot of hype.
There's, we do see wherethere's some practical uses for
it and it's like, okay, it'sgreat, that's fantastic.
There's also the other sidewhere it's like hype, this is it
Like, this is this is going tosolve the world's problems.
And then of course, you getboth sides and you know, and I

(16:50):
always say here on the podcast,it's like I really find myself
kind of in the middle.
I'm kind of like a wait and see, but I like to move, but just
being able to really researchand discern what is out there,
because you know people arepassionate on both sides, people
that you know.
Of course there's articles thatwill come out, you know.

(17:12):
Is AI or LLMs destroying?

Holly Owens (17:12):
our neurons, so those that are in favor of and
no, it's not.
How do we know that?
Yet it hasn't been out thatlong.

Fonz Mendoza (17:15):
It hasn't been out that long.
How do we know that yet?
How do we do this and how do wedo that?
And then, of course, there'speople that are, you know, like
yes, yes, it is, and this iswhat we're seeing, and so you
see both sides.
But you know, I always try andkeep it balanced and I'm always
like, ok, I'm cautiously readingand doing those things, and I
think that's so important in ourjob roles and in our spaces
where we do work with ed tech,so much.

(17:37):
So I want to ask you, forexample, I know recently one of
the tools that I dug into wassomething that you had shared,
which I think it was TruePeer AI.
I hope I'm pronouncing it right, because I know it looks like
it's Trooper, but I thought itwas Trooper at first.

Holly Owens (17:52):
It's TruePeer.
Yeah, yeah.

Fonz Mendoza (17:54):
TruePeer, you know where it shows that you can
record, and then you do a screenshare and then, of course,
it'll create you know coursematerial like in minutes, like
in a flash.
So I want to ask you what goesthrough your mind working in the
L&D space learning anddevelopment and then, of course,
in the instructional designspace, as you go and find tools

(18:15):
like this that you discover and,like you said, openly share.
What are some of the thingsthat you look for before this is
something that you would rollout to your learners and how, if
anything, does that conflictwith, is there a conflict with
that human first strategy manytimes?
Tell us what your thoughtprocess is in all of that.

Holly Owens (18:37):
Yeah Well, first of all, it's important to evaluate
the tool like that you're aboutto share and I'm not sharing
anything that I haven't usedmyself, I'll say that.
So anything like I'm a brandambassador and I'm not sharing
anything that I haven't usedmyself, I'll say that.
So anything like I'm a brandambassador for, I'm sharing that
on LinkedIn world, I've used itand you know I put it into
practice and I can say that someof those like Troop here, you
know there's Synthesia, likewith the AI tools.

(18:58):
I've used all of them and I'mactually using Synthesia in my
courses that I'm teaching online.
I think it's important.
One of the first things I try tolook for, or that I make sure
is available, is theaccessibility information about
the tool, because if they arenot putting accessibility at the
forefront of everything, thenwhat's the point Like people are

(19:20):
going to there's?
That's going to create barriersfor people, whether they have a
learning disability or not.
So it's important that there'saccessibility in the tool, that
they're able to navigate it withkeyboard navigation, that kind
of stuff.
So those are the tools.
That's one of the first thingsI look for.
Also, look to see, I'm prettylike I don't want to say selfish

(19:41):
, but I want it to save me timeand save me money.
So, and then companies arelooking for that too.
So with Truepeer, that saves aton of time when you've recorded
something and it's spitting outlike the how-tos and the video
with the captions and all thedifferent things.
Just think about pre-AI howmuch time that took

(20:02):
instructional designers tocreate that.
That would probably take me aweek or two to do those things
manually and type everything outand make sure it sounds right.
So now, instead of just you knowcoming up with the description
of the video or coming up withthe script, ai is doing that for
me.
And I'm going through what I'mreading.
I'll say, nope, take this out,this doesn't sound like this is

(20:23):
a part of this, because you knowai is not perfect.
Or put this in this sounds morelike you know AI is not perfect
.
Or put this in this sounds morelike you know it's giving you
an insider perspective, or likea tip that you should use, like
at this portion or with thisfeature of the tool.
So you still have to go throughand evaluate what is actually
being said.
You can't just say, okay, putit in there, it's all done, put
it out.
No, there still needs to be aprocess where you're like okay,

(20:48):
does this sound good for thelearner?
Is this something that they'regoing to understand?
There's a lot of jargon thatpossibly ai is getting wrong or
is putting into the conversationbecause you know, from
accessibility, you're supposedthe reading level is supposed to
be around sixth to eighth grade.
Um, so it's simplified enoughso that learners can like
understand it.
Um, so I think that's.
Those are some of the firstthings that I do, but if it's a

(21:09):
tool that saves me time andsaves the company money, why not
try it?
You know, test it out, seewhat's gonna happen.
And yeah, there oftentimes is aconflict between the human
aspect of that and because we'reall right now with AI, we're
moving even faster to get thingsdone, so sometimes that quality

(21:31):
might get sacrificed.
And that's the human piece ofit, like the emotional tie, the
psyche.
Um, you know figuring out like,is this something an activity
that people are really going tolike enjoy doing, or am I just
doing this to get it done?
Is it a checklist item?
And then you know if you have along to-do list, like many us
do, you're, you're checking itoff the list, you're like I did

(21:52):
this, but you you may or may nothave properly and appropriately
evaluated the tool, so Irecommend doing like some pilots
with people, or testing withthe end user.
Before you full blown, just putit out there.
Insane, it's solving all yourproblems.
Because, as far as I'mconcerned, there's no technology
at this point that's out therethat solves all the problems.

(22:13):
Instructional designers andlearning and experience
designers and everybody in theL&D whoever are trying to solve.
But this AI is giving us whatwe need in terms of having the
creative mind space, because, asan instructional designer and a
human first person, I want totalk to other people.
I want to sit in a space whereI can share my ideas and be

(22:37):
creative.
Doing all that manual work ofsetting stuff up that that ai is
taking care of now allows me todo that, so it frees me up to
have coffee chats orconversations with my coworkers
instead of like, well, I got tothink of another fun, fun FOMO
webinar description.
Or I got to think of a titlethat's going to work.

(22:57):
I got to set up all thecomponents of it.
I know I can actually sit in mycreative space and think about,
like, how am I going to makethis meaningful to people and
really focus on the what's in itfor me from the learner
perspective.

Fonz Mendoza (23:11):
Yeah, and you know and I love that you mentioned
that because I wanted tohighlight it kind of goes in
with the next question that Iwas saying you know you still
need that human piece because,as you mentioned, with tools
like Synthesia or Synthesia andyou know being used, and heavily
in the instructional designspace, sometimes you feel like,
okay, you know, this is greatbecause it's saving me that time

(23:33):
, but then at the same time isit turning into just kind of
like a bland homogenization ofyou know, excuse me
homogenization of learning,where it just seems like very
cookie cutter and it's just verybland.
So I think, like you mentioned,it just seems like very cookie
cutter and it's just very bland.
So I think, like you mentioned,you know, you have to find that

(23:54):
right balance where you areusing the tech appropriately,
again, like you mentioned, tosave you time, but then, of
course, revising and going backand still adding that human
component and that quality pieceto make that connection.
And I think that I wanted tobring in just a comment from a
good friend of mine that Ifollow and she mentioned, she
said and she posted, she saidthat she just got out of the

(24:15):
keynote and she delivered akeynote and she said I already
had this keynote months ahead,months behind or, you know,
months prior to this.
Yeah Well, I don't know if itwas, she was prepared, it was
well, I guess it was just havingthe keynote just ready to go,
because you never know whenyou're going to get called.
And so obviously she mentionedand she said, guys, she goes.

(24:35):
I used, you know, obviously, aito help me do this keynote.
But she said, as I wasdelivering this keynote and I'm
looking and I'm feeling thepresentation and I'm going, it's
like this isn't me.
Like she came to thisrealization where, like this
isn't my voice and she goes.
You know what, she goes.

(24:57):
I'm going to kind of dial itback just a little bit, just to
kind of like and that issomething that was on my mind
many, many months ago where Iwas like, okay, where do we get
to the point where, like yousaid, we're pulling it, we're
putting out the quantity, butthen we're losing ourselves
within the quality of that andlosing our own voice and just
kind of reeling it back in?

(25:18):
How have you dealt with that?
Have you come to a point whereyou feel like, man, I'm doing
all this great work, I'm doingwhat I need to for my jobs, for
my learners.
And then you think about like,oh my gosh, like, like.
Is there enough of me in here?
Is there enough voice, is thereenough of my personality in
here to make that humanconnection?

(25:38):
What has gone through your mindduring this time?

Holly Owens (25:42):
When AI spits out stuff that doesn't sound like me
, I prompt it to say sound likeme?
Or I put more stuff into itthat sounds like me, like
recently, um working in thepodcast and working in the tool
that I use.
Um, it does, it can do the AIvoice.
It does not sound like me, itis just.
It is so far from what itsounding like with the

(26:03):
intonation and the differentthings that we can do as humans.
Um, so one of the things that Ilike to do is, you know, I go
through whatever I'm promptingit to do and I'm like this, this
yeah, I get that feeling itreally doesn't sound like me.
So I say tell to sound like mea little bit more and then I
tweak it a little bit more togive it that more positive spin,
because sometimes ai is just sogeneric and top level.

(26:25):
It doesn't really have thatemotional part of it, and I
think that's the part we touchon most as humans is the
emotional aspect.
So I go back through it and Iput some emotion into it, like
really deep, like feelingconnected to each other, instead
of this like very generic toplevel, like, okay, here's,
here's a resource you know, havefun using it.

(26:48):
I think storytelling AI alsohelps with that too.
So AI knows I mean, chat GPTknows who I am, it knows my
story.
It knows from start to finishwhere I started my career and
it's learned that.
But it doesn't know everything.
It doesn't know every littlepiece.
You don't know about thestruggles that I may have had as
far as, like, mental health isconcerned.

(27:10):
You know when my my fatherpassed away in 2011 and you know
he took his own life.
Like it doesn't know that storyand how that impacted me as a
human, because AI hasn'texperienced that and it doesn't
know what it's like.
You know, I'm just bringing uplike the grief part of it to go
be grieving as you're trying tostill be a professional and
still trying to be a human.
So I think it's important thatwe recognize that.

(27:34):
But also, too, you're learningAI just as much as it's learning
you.
So, as you're putting in thedifferent prompts, like you're
trying to figure out, like whatyou want it to spit out in the
sense, like to spit out in thesense, like I think sometimes my
words are just too simplisticnot not simplistic in the way
like I'm dumbing it down, butit's like I want to say it

(27:55):
differently, like I want to sayit more professionally, more
clear, to the point, and I AIhelps me with that.
Um, so that's what I use it for, but other times I just want to
.
I need some, some ideas, I needsome things.
Like you know, make me a listof this or show me this, or you
know, like it really does.
I learned through AI and likewith some of the things that are

(28:16):
happening with it, like you cando research mode and like as an
academic, that's oops, I had mymicrophone.
That's important.
You need to have research toback up your what you're saying
to faculty or what you're doingin the classroom.
So having that availability ishelping tremendously too.
So, on one hand, it's really isgiving you that more free time

(28:37):
and it's more speedy, but again,that human piece has to
constantly come back into it andyou have to connect with others
.
Like I don't, I don't, I don'tknow how that person got to the
point where they like fell inlove with ai.
I mean, I know there's a movieabout it, but it really it's
like I don't know yeah it'sprobably a topic for another day

(28:59):
, but I was just like when I sawthe article, I was like this is
insane to me, like this personis too connected to the
artificial intelligence and isnot getting out enough back into
the human, actual experience.
Um yeah, connecting like likerelationships need like physical
interaction, like I don't evengo there, but like thinking

(29:21):
about that and like ai doesn'tunderstand, like you know how we
need I, just it's, it's nothuman to me yeah yeah, not human
.

Fonz Mendoza (29:30):
That's the bottom line to me, yeah I know and I
understand what you mean too,because I think there has to be
that element to that digitalwellness and understanding that
digital wellness yeah, digitalwellness.
And I had a last episode,episode three, at 326, because I
think this is 327.
Wait, I'm kind of lost in theepisodes.

Holly Owens (29:49):
I wrote down.
It was 364 when we were talkingat the beginning.
I wrote it down.

Fonz Mendoza (29:54):
I don't think I got my numbers mixed up.
I kind of flipped it but it'sokay, don't worry.
So this is 327.
Sorry, 327.
Oh, my goodness, 327.
But I had Dr Teodora Pavkovicon here and and she was talking
about the digital wellnesscomponent and you know, at least
in the youth, you know, becauseshe does a lot of work with the
youth.
But she was saying, you know,there was a research that was

(30:16):
done that even about, you know,I think it was higher than 60%
of young adults, you know, or inthe K-12 space, middle school
and up, are spending a lot oftime just using AI companions
and they build up thisparasocial relationship where
it's a true tie and a trueconnection to it, and so it just

(30:37):
I don't know.
It's very interesting and, likeyou said, that's something for
another day that we can discuss,but it's something that is
coming up and very prevalent.
And now this was put up on theair and I'm sure that a lot of
people are like, wow, this isvery interesting.
But okay going back, though, toyou know the ID, the ID space
and the learning and developmentspace.

(30:59):
I want to ask you you know sonow, that AI can help
instructional designers, youknow, with videos and creating?
You know some scripts andcreating the avatars and so on.
What are some core, still,still still some core
instructional design skills thatshould be non-negotiables for
IDs who want to stay ahead asthe technology continues to push

(31:24):
forward.

Holly Owens (31:25):
Yeah, you have to be open to trying things.
I feel like you can't be aclosed-minded individual when it
comes to technology.
So that's the first thing thatcomes to mind for me when I
think about this.
I think about the diffusion ofinnovation theory, where you
have at the beginning, like thepeople who are like
automatically, like we're goingto use this, like I'm going to
get this fancy, colorfulmicrophone because it's a

(31:46):
conversation starter,conversation starter, I love
this, you know it's gonna workfor me.
And then you have, at the endof that, you have the luddites,
the people who take forever andacademia is notorious for this
to actually grab onto thetechnology and use it
efficiently and be like weprobably shouldn't have been
using that a long time ago.
So I think it's important tounderstand it through that

(32:07):
perspective.
You have to be open minded tousing it and trying it.
It may not work for you andwhat you're currently doing, and
that's fine.
Just take a spin, take a turnfor that.
Also, too, I think I want totalk to a little bit of things
that I've been experiencing orhaving conversations with people
who are transitioning into thisspace is the fact that people

(32:28):
the term proficiency like howdoes proficiency look in the
instructional design space?
So if we're talking aboutyou're coming into an
instructional design role whenyou're proficient in ai, what
does that mean?
Like?
Does that mean you're advanced,does that mean you're at the
beginning stage?
Or does that mean what I say,you know enough just to be
dangerous with the technologydangerous in a good way, I think

(32:52):
.
Proficiency is thrown around,like in different spaces, and it
means different things.
So figure out where theproficiency, what they're truly
asking for, and be proficientenough to understand the tool,
how it impacts your learners,how it impacts learning
experience, because people, Ithink they confuse proficiency
with advanced knowledge of thetool or advanced things.

(33:15):
I don't know.
I wanted to ask you about that.
That's one of the things I wasthinking yesterday when people
were talking in the webinar thatI did.
What does it mean to beproficient in a technology tool
Like?
I think proficiency could be atthe very basic level.
You just have a very basicunderstanding.

Fonz Mendoza (33:33):
Yeah, I agree with you, you know, oftentimes that
say, well, I'm proficient inthis, I'm proficient in that,
but where's the scale?
Was there a test?
Was there a badge?
Was there a course that youwent through?
Is there a certificate?
And for me, proficiency is likeyou said, it's you know enough
to understand, you know thatenvironment or that tool that

(33:55):
you're using and, like you said,enough to be effective and
still be productive all at thesame time, while still learning.
And you're still working onthis and mastering that tool.
I mean, in my case, you know,working as a coordinator for
digital learning, it's I.
There's a new tool that's beingadopted or a new platform.
It's like, okay, I need to domy research, I need to go ahead
and play around with it first,and I go in with my teacher

(34:17):
mindset and I'm always lookingfor user experience, user
interface, and sometimes I'mlike, obviously you don't have
teachers designing this or youasked a teacher, because this is
not the way that I would putthat.
For me, my role is always threeclicks or less to get me where
I need to go.
If it's three or more, you'reout the door.
I'm not a fan of that you knowbut anyway, you know, just being

(34:39):
proficient, being able to justmanage the website or manage the
platform to do what it is thatyou need to do.
But I love that you mentionedthat, because, as I was thinking
about this too, I was likethere really isn't a scale.
It's almost like when they doan evaluation it's like, oh well
, you're using tech, even thoughyou may be using a document

(35:01):
camera.

Holly Owens (35:01):
Oh, you're using tech.
Excellent You're, you knowyou're doing great, you're in
advance, you get a star.

Fonz Mendoza (35:04):
You're in advance.
I, I was like but that's adocument camera, they, you know,
and the next person is usingyou know a pdf, you know
annotation tool.
It's like, oh okay, excellent,you're like beyond proficient,
and so so it's like I guess itjust depends on the person, uh.

Holly Owens (35:19):
But yeah, that is a wonderful question that you
mentioned, and so I would lovefor the audience to comment on
this episode and say what dothey think proficiency means,
like comment on the LinkedInpost that goes along with this,
because I'm really interested.
It's.
It's really taken some timebecause people again this goes
back to the imposter syndromethey don't think they're
proficient, but they might be.

(35:39):
They might be proficient.
And I think the final thingthat I would say for
instructional designers or beingin the L&D space is if you are
not a human that can deal withchange, this is not the area for
you, because something ischanging every single day.
So being able to assimilate tochange management that goes with
the open-mindedness as well.

(35:59):
We kind of correlate with eachother.
If you can't deal with shiftsand priorities like if you're
focused like I have to get thisone task done and then something
else kind of comes up, oryou're designing a learning
experience and then the part ofthe process change, so you have
to go back and ask why.
You know this means gave me thecontent.
No, it's changed.
Now the higher ups have donewhatever, whatever, and now it's

(36:20):
different you have to be ableto assimilate to that, but also
do it with grace, because you'rethe person that everybody's
looking to, as the Also sayingon the other side of that, it's
going to add more time to theproject, so being able to
advocate in that aspect as wellwhen the change does happen.

(36:41):
So let's see, we went there, wesaid open mind.
What does it mean?
Like being proficient insomething, and then also to
being able to assimilate thequick and fast changes.

Fonz Mendoza (36:51):
I always say, like my best advice and I give it to
not only best advice that wasgiven to me that I shared
recently on an episode with myfriends was improvise, adapt and
overcome.
Those three words, I think likethat's helped me out to in the
education space, transitioningfrom not knowing anything about
pedagogy and knowing justeverything about customer

(37:12):
service, marketing, sales andall the four Ps and all that
Coming in.
It's like okay, I got to knowhow to improvise, adapt and
overcome.
So, and like you said,advocating for yourself, showing
yourself, not only showingyourself some grace, but also
doing it with grace, and so Ilove that advice.
That is wonderful, all right.
Well, as we start kind ofwrapping up a little bit, but I

(37:33):
still have just a couple morequestions here and now, knowing
you know, as far as AI, we knowthat it's not perfect, we know
that we always talk about youknow the implicit bias, the
ethics of it, maybe just evennot only the return on
investment but the return oninstruction and the trust.

(37:53):
So I want to ask you, from yourexperience, what are some
ethical red flags that learningdevelopers or instructional
designers should think aboutbefore deploying a tool at scale
?

Holly Owens (38:17):
somebody comes to you and they're giving you a
PowerPoint presentation andthey're telling you to turn it
into something pretty andthey're not thinking about the
experience itself and how it'simpacting the end user.
Again going back to thatchecklist, so if they're coming
in and they're saying, just useAI to generate this as quickly
as possible, that's a huge redflag to me, because that's and
they're not going to give youthe time to evaluate the tool as
needed.
It's like coming into arelationship and it's all

(38:38):
butterflies and rainbows at thebeginning and then they say well
, you know, I have whateversecret you know, I have a family
somewhere else.
I just found out I had a kid Ididn't know about.
You know stuff like that.
So exposing those things at thebeginning, or like the rushiness
of implementing the product orthe deliverable, that's a huge

(39:01):
red flag to me, because to methat says that the leadership
doesn't quite understand thelearning sciences and they don't
respect the instructionaldesign process.
It's a, it's a processeverything has to be.
It doesn't necessarily move inlinear fashion, but, um, as they
come in like, just do it, justuse ai.
And we know you guys have ai,just use it and make it, make it

(39:23):
pretty.
It shouldn't take you that longnow because you have ai.
That's a red flag, that's ahuge red flag, for me no most
definitely.

Fonz Mendoza (39:31):
Yeah, I'm just like right now I'm just like,
yes, you're right.
And and it just seems too it'slike okay, you've got AI to do
it, now you can do it faster,but now I need you to do more,
and I'm just like whoa slow down.

Holly Owens (39:46):
Quality over quantity or do you want quantity
over quality?
Yeah, and I think most of thetime some people in that that
situation will say quantity andthen they will they'll realize
through the evaluation processthat that wasn't the right
decision.
Uh, for learners, becausepeople are, you know, you may be
experiencing, like when I wasworking in pharmacy, like these,
we had these stops like ifsomething happened on the
pharmacy floor.
We had, like things just shutdown and they weren't, people

(40:09):
weren't trained properly becausewe did the training fast and we
didn't hone in on, like, whatthe actual issue was.
So again, that's a huge redflag to me.
Being order takers and justgetting things done fast.
I don't think that's effectiveat all.
But another side of that, youhave to find the balance between
designing the experience,getting the quality in, you know

(40:29):
, um, making sure that thestakeholders and sneeze feel
loved and that you're doingdoing it within a timely fashion
also, too, too, and thelearners are experiencing
something that's gonna changetheir behavior for sure.
So, pretty PowerPointpresentations, turning into
e-learnings or just gettingsomething done, a deliverable

(40:50):
training around that.
Everything has to be a training.
Kathy Moore says that in herbook map it and you have to ask
the questions.
It doesn't really need to be atraining.
It could be a job aid, it couldbe something else, um?
So if they're asking you justto do a training for the sake of
doing a training, that's a redflag too, oh my gosh, I love
that and that got me thinkingabout so many things.

Fonz Mendoza (41:09):
I was like does this need to be a training or
could this just be like a pdftutorial walkthrough?

Holly Owens (41:14):
or could it just be a two minute video market.
They get favorite it.

Fonz Mendoza (41:18):
They can come back to it two minute video or
whatever, or just like eitherusing iorad, scribe or tango or
something, just to walk themthrough, and and that's what I
have too like, as, as I getcalls, you know, from teachers,
it's like, hey, I need this,this or help with this.
I those are my go into myfrequently asked document and
then what I do is I, once Icreate something, I just have it

(41:40):
there and then I'm here you go,here you go and here you go,
because you know, like you said,doing a whole training on it.
There really doesn't need to beall training, but doing the
training for training sake.
That's something that we do seeoften.
All right, ali, so my lastquestion for for you, before we
get into our last threequestions that I was always on
the show with, is looking aheadwith your experience in the next

(42:03):
maybe, let's say, short term,two to three years.
You know what are some tasks.
You know that, in the ID worldand L&D world that you see will
eventually become fullyautomated by AI, see will
eventually become fullyautomated by AI.
But then what would be someskills, though, that you know
the human designers shouldsharpen to remain indispensable.

Holly Owens (42:34):
Yeah, I think maybe it's more of a hope that's
going to happen with AI is doingthe cumbersome work of like
responding to emails or going tomeetings.
I really feel like that takesup too much of our time at this
point and there are some toolsout there that can like, respond
and do different things thatyou know.
The hard stuff, like the stuffthat you would say you would
probably pass off to somebodywho's like an administrative
assistant or an executiveassistant the administrative

(42:56):
task I really feel like ai isgoing to take care of that.
Um, one of the tools I use tokind of project manage is motion
, because I'll put in like whatthe what the project is, how
long I think it's going to take,and then it'll put on my
calendar when I need to work onit and by whatever due date it
needs, so it sets it all up forme.
Uh, so really not having tothink through like, oh, this

(43:17):
might take me an hour, thismight take me 10 hours you never
know with instructional design,but next two or three years, I
really see ai becoming moreadvanced in that image
generation of things that weneed to use graphics and things
for.
I even see it in like videos,like you know, are.
Like you know, when you talkabout troop here, it's already
spitting stuff out for us.

(43:38):
Again, you still have toevaluate and I don't see it
fully being like, okay, it'sgood to go, you're still going
to have to evaluate that piece,but I really think in the next
two to three years is going tosave us a lot more time on some
of these tasks that we don't.
We call it the grunt work thatwe don't like to do and it's
just going to be built into thesystems we use every day and

(43:59):
we're not even going to noticeit.
That's the thing.
We're not going to notice thatAI is doing it for us.
It's just going to becomecommon.
Like I'm an elder millennial,so I remember logging into AOL
and hearing the little thing andthen you got mail Like it's
just going to like.
It just became a part of theculture.
It just became a part ofeverything that we do.
We're not going to notice if AIis answering our emails in an

(44:22):
effective way and you know, itlearned us so well that it knows
how to respond exactly to thisparticular situation or design,
this particular piece of thelearning experience.
It's just going to be there.
It's not going to be aconversation of whether or not
we should be using AI.
It's going to be.
It's just going to be there.
It's going to be a part of theculture.
It's going to be a part of theworkflow.

Fonz Mendoza (44:42):
Excellent.
Well, Holly, thank you so much.
This has been an amazingconversation, but before we wrap
up and end the show with thelast three questions, please let
our audience members know howit is that they may connect with
you.
In case you know, they listento the episode, they want to
follow you on socials, they wantto maybe send you a message,
just something to make thoseconnections.
Let us know how can ouraudience members connect with

(45:05):
you?

Holly Owens (45:08):
Yeah, linkedin is the place to be for me.
That's where I spend 99.9% ofmy time is LinkedIn world.
So shoot me a message.
I'm happy to respond.
It might take me a little bit,but I definitely respond to
almost every message, beyond theones of people soliciting stuff
to me or fond.
I'm sure you get those twopeople.
They send me their resume andthey're like can you review this

(45:29):
for me?
They say nothing, they're justlike can you review?
And no, I don't respond tothose.
I respond to people who payattention to what I'm doing and
who are also motivated to wantto do better for others and
themselves.
So LinkedIn world is where tofind me, of course, listening to
my podcast at up L and D um,just listen to the shows and you

(45:49):
can connect with me there, um,but LinkedIn is where it's at
for me.
So Holly.
Owens.

Fonz Mendoza (45:56):
Awesome, yeah, and we'll definitely make sure that
we put.
Yeah, Well, we'll go ahead andput that link in there, and also
, and also for your podcast tooas well, Great value.
I know the last conversationsthat you've had on there too.
I'm like, okay, this is great.
And so it kind of, like youknow, ties into what we were
talking about today, Cause Iknow these are a lot of
questions that have come about,and so I just thank you so much

(46:18):
for your time, but we'lldefinitely make sure that we
link all of that great stuff onthere into the show notes that
way you can connect with Hollyand follow her.
She's fantastic.
She'll do the jobs.
She'll do job postings, givesgreat tips and recently she's
been doing, you know, just somelive shows, just putting herself
out there and just sharing herexperiences.
So if you're interested in thelearning development space, in

(46:41):
the ID space, resumes, things ofthat sort it's like it seems
like Holly's your one-stop shopand on top of that she still has
your regular job too that she'sdoing.
So I don't know how she does it, but it's great that she's
doing it and we do allappreciate that.
So thank you.

Holly Owens (46:56):
Holly.

Fonz Mendoza (46:56):
So now let's go ahead and wrap up our show with
our last three questions.
So, holly, hopefully you'reready to go here, all right.
So question number one as weknow, every superhero has a
weakness or a pain point, andfor Superman, kryptonite was
that pain point.
So I want to ask you, in thecurrent world of and we'll say

(47:17):
you know, you can either do twoor just one as a whole in the
learning design space and in theinstructional design, or
learning and development spaceand instructional design space,
what would you say is yourcurrent?

Holly Owens (47:29):
kryptonite, yeah, saying yes to too many projects.
Saying yes to too many projects, like sometimes I think getting
involved like it's like a, it'slike a relationship.
When you get to start an ideaproject, it's so much fun
because you can like put in allthese different ideas and try
different things.
It's like trial and error andsaying yes to that.

(47:51):
But then you get to the pointto pass the honeymoon stage of
the project and you're like, whydid I do this?
And then I have this projectand that project.
So saying yes to too manythings is my kryptonite.

Fonz Mendoza (48:01):
Excellent, Great question and I think that's for
a lot of us too is just sayingyes and all right.
So question number two is ifyou could have a billboard with
anything on it, what would it beand why?

Holly Owens (48:15):
Well, that's a great question.
I know you, you ask these onyour show and I'm all prepared
in my answers and I'm likeblanking out.
But I think one of the thingsyou know I would really make it
like about I would obviouslywant to make it something about
me, like advertising, um, thedifferent things that I love, or
just something aboutencouragement, um trying to

(48:36):
really think of something good Ilove.
I love sports and how that allintegrates into um connecting
with other humans.
It would definitely be abillboard about human connection
, um and remembering to like putyour phones down and talk to
other people yeah um, I think itwould be something along those
lines, not anything Recently.

(48:57):
I love anything elder,millennial, like Shira stuff.
I just got a Shira 40th mug.
She's the princess of power.
It was a big thing when I wasyounger.
You know, just empowerment, youknow human connection
empowerment.
That's what the bill would be.

Fonz Mendoza (49:12):
Empower human connection.

Holly Owens (49:14):
Yeah, they're going to empower, empower human
connection oh that's like agreat website slogan.

Fonz Mendoza (49:20):
I'm gonna write that one down there you go and
you know it's fantastic.
I mean, you brought up shira I.
I grew up, obviously okay.
So before I went to school Iwould wake up.
I think it was either like 5,30 or maybe six o'clock, and
then of course they had uh thebigfoot cartoon.
I think they had uh shira alsoin the morning and like gem and

(49:42):
the rockers or something, andthen in the afternoon I could
home and it'd be like he-man andtransformers and all.
So I grew up with all of that.

Holly Owens (49:51):
I'm just like oh, so right now, very tied to like
the nostalgia of like the 80sand the 90s.

Fonz Mendoza (49:57):
I'm getting into that now.
Now that I'm an adult and nowthat I have adult money, I'm
like, oh yeah, like my littletransformer, transformer Legos
and things of that sort.
Because now I'm like, oh mygosh, it's like this is so great
.
I just remember those times anddifferent times back then, but
good times, all right.
And my last question for you,holly, is, if you could trade

(50:19):
places with one person for asingle day, who would that be
and why?

Holly Owens (50:26):
um, I'd like to trade persons with taylor swift.
Honestly, I want to experienceyou know, taylor swift doesn't
get to experience what she'sbuilt in our culture and for
people around the globe.
Like I want her to be able toexperience it from our
perspective.
And then I want to experienceit from her perspective, like

(50:49):
all the different things thatshe's done and like just the
closeness of the, the peoplethat she has around her.
I think that you know, I always, when I talk about like yellow
dig and stuff, I always reallythe expanse like taylor has this
huge community who advocatesfor her, who they, they work
even when she's not like visible.

(51:10):
You know, like they're alwaysthere supporting her, no matter
what, and I love that and Ithink that's what the human
connection is about and she doesa great job of that.

Fonz Mendoza (51:28):
So I I definitely wanted to replace Taylor Swift.
I mean a billion dollars likepay all my bills, do my debt off
that, too, that's a perk.
And the LinkedIn space, becauseof everything that you do.
You are that unicorn that youtalked about in your elevator
pitch, where I mean not only areyou sharing job postings,
you're going online, you'resharing your experiences, you're
doing the job at Yellowdig,you're doing your podcast and on

(51:52):
top of that, you know you'vegot just your regular everyday
things that you do and I'm like,oh my gosh, you're truly living
like a rock star, you know.
And even then you know you'vegot people that are, you know,
supporting you because of allthe great things that you're
doing.
So you're not that far off.
I would say that you get, maybefinancially.

Holly Owens (52:10):
There might be a billion dollar thing.
We don't go into this for themoney, right yeah?

Fonz Mendoza (52:15):
Yeah, so, but I love it.
Holly, thank you so much.
This has been a fantasticconversation, thank you.
Thank you for being an amazingguest and just an amazing person
and, obviously, with all thegreat work that you do, I can't
stop talking about highly of you, especially the things that
you're doing on LinkedIn andjust sharing yourself and
putting yourself out there, andyou're definitely a great
example and, like I mentioned toyou earlier, some of the things

(52:37):
that you're doing are some ofthe things that I want to learn
how to do and do better, and sothis has really helped that too
as well.

Holly Owens (52:45):
All you got to do is just try it once and see how
it goes there you go Well.

Fonz Mendoza (52:49):
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate you and forall our audience members, thank
you so much for listening tothis great episode.
Make so much for listening tothis great episode.
Make sure that you follow Holly.
All that info, the links andall that great stuff will be in
the show notes, so make surethat you click on those.
Follow Holly on LinkedIn.
Make sure you also follow theEdUp podcast, too, as well.
And, of course, thank you, asalways, for your support.

(53:12):
I want to give a big shout outto our sponsors.
Thank you, book Creator, thankyou EduAid and thank you
Yellowdig.
We really appreciate youbelieving in our mission and
bringing you these amazingconversations with wonderful
people that are helping justequip the masses out there on
LinkedIn and just reallysupporting them.
So thank you, as always, fromthe bottom of my heart.
Please make sure you visit ourwebsite where you can check out

(53:34):
this amazing episode and all theother wonderful episodes, where
I guarantee you, you will finda couple of gems that you can
sprinkle onto what you arealready doing great.
So thank you as always and, myfriends, don't forget until next
time.
Stay techie.
Thank you.