Episode 329: Building with Purpose with Eduaide

Episode Transcript
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Fonz Mendoza (00:30):
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode
of my EdTech Life.
Thank you so much for joiningus on this wonderful day and
wherever it is that you'rejoining us from around the world
.
Thank you, as always, for yoursupport.
As you know, we appreciate allthe likes, the shares, the
follows.
Thank you so much for yoursupport.
As you know, we appreciate allthe likes, the shares, the
follows.
Thank you so much for yourcomments.
We take this to heart becausewe completely want to improve

(00:50):
and bring you some amazingconversations, as we always do
into our space so we cancontinue to grow, and today is
no different, and I am excitedto welcome our very first
four-time guest and our thirdwell, I can say fourth, actually
third-time guest.
We have Thomas Thompson andThomas Hummel from Edu8 joining

(01:11):
us today.
Thomas Thompson, how are youdoing today?

Thomas Thompson (01:16):
Well, thank you so much for having us today,
fonz, for the fourth time, youknow I feel like the privileged
list of guests.
You know the Tonight Show.
They would have the 10comedians that would get to do
repeat appearances.
So it's an honor.

Yes, no, fourth time guest for Thomas Thompson
and Thomas Hummel.
You are a three time guest now,so that's a wonderful honor.
How are you doing today?

Thomas Hummel (01:38):
Fonz, I'm doing great, and it's always a
pleasure to get to speak withyou, so thank you so much for
having us.

No, thank you, and I'm really excited to have you
all here and, as all mylisteners know, and I always,
when I close out the show andthank all my sponsors you are a
sponsor of my EdTech life and Iwant to thank you for believing
in our mission and what we'redoing to just continue to bring
some great conversations intothis space and just see where we
stand, where we're going, howwe're growing, and just kind of

(02:06):
take it from there.
You know, right now, I thinkthat having dialogue is great
and just having thoseconversations continue as the
technology continues to grow.
It's something that's veryimportant.
So I'm really excited to getinto today's conversation.
However, we may have somefirst-time listeners or some
first people that are learningabout EduAid for the very first

(02:28):
time.
As you know, we were just atISTE and you know a lot of
conferences and in thesummertime usually a lot of
teachers get to dive into a lotof tools.
So before we get into the meatof the conversation, I'll go
ahead and start off with ThomasThompson.
Can you give us a little briefintroduction and what your
context is, not only in theEduAID space, but in the

(02:48):
educator space as well?

Yeah, of course my name is Thomas Thompson,
co-founder and CEO at EduAID.
Prior to and in current withstarting EduAID, I was a middle
school social studies teacher.
That's how I met Thomas Hummel,one of the other co-founders of
EduAid.
Taught in rural Maryland on theeastern shore.
Did that for three years.
Then I was starting graduateschool, said okay, I can't be
driving an hour to work everyday.
I started teaching in GlenBurnie, maryland, just north of
where I live in Annapolis.
Did that for another two years.

(03:17):
We launched EduAid at that time.
That sort of got out of hand soI had to step away from
teaching and focus on EduAidfull time and happy to do it.
We bootstrapped this thing withthree people, one of those
being Thomas Hubble.

Excellent, Thomas.
How about yourself?
Tell us a little bit of yourcontext within the education
space and in the EduAid space aswell.

Yeah.
So I'm just like really blessedto still be teaching.
I think that anybody who goesinto teaching they do it because
they love it, not to get richor anything like that.
And so you know, I feel veryfortunate to have a great team
like teammate, like Thomas herewho kind of can take over a
little bit more on the edgeweight side as far as all things

(03:59):
going with the business.
But you know, just on theteaching side, I think it's
great that we have the abilityto implement our tool into the
daily practice that no othercompany really can do, because
you know, we're just teachersand we're just trying to help
teachers.
So it's awesome to be part ofthis journey and also remain

(04:20):
like committed to my communityand to my students.

So I feel very, I feel very blessed, fonz,
excellent no, and that'swonderful and I think that's
something that is great aboutboth of you and the work that
you're doing from the verybeginning, really still kind of
your foot in the classroom, footin EduAid and still being able
to see how it is that you cancontinue to improve your

(04:43):
platform, you know, on the daily, on the monthly, on the yearly,
and just to continue to helpeducators.
And I know that there are manyeducators out there that are
extremely thankful for the workthat you're doing and the work
that you've done from the verybeginning.
As I know, and personally, inhaving you all on the show
various times and various phasesof EduAid, it has been

(05:04):
something wonderful to see yourgrowth and really how you
continue to enhance the, notonly the platform.
As we know, many people cancome up and, you know, have
critiques about platforms butthe fact that you listen and
listen to those even thecritiques but also listen to
teachers to help improve theplatform and really stick to

(05:27):
that pedagogy-based learningthat is really reliable and can
help teachers not necessarilyfeel that they're doing
something completely differentor learning something new, but
really enhancing what they arealready doing, is something that
has been great and that'ssomething that I love to catch
up on.
You know, from the last timethat you guys were here, back in

(05:48):
episode 282, you know, I knowthat a lot has changed from 282
to this being 328.
And although the number seemsvery close, there are definitely
months, months and many monthsgoing through there and a lot of
growth in EduAid.
So, thomas Thompson, I'll goahead and start with you as we
kind of dive in into the growthof EduAid.

(06:10):
From the very last time thatyou were here, as you guys were
planning on going and doing someefficacy studies and really
diving in deep and hearing fromeducators to see how you can
improve, can you please sharewith us a little bit of your
findings and how that has helpedyou continue to improve the
platform but also improve thelearning in the classroom as

(06:31):
well?

Yeah, certainly , I mean from.
It has been quite a few months.
We've launched a few likereally intensive partnerships
with some other organizationsthat have allowed us to take a
really close look at ourplatform.
So we worked with a cohort ofteachers at Teach for America in
a kind of a controlled studyover a set number of weeks and
we had these kind of meetupcalls and they played around on

(06:54):
some platforms, implemented themin their class to set a few
objectives that they shared withthe cohort, and it was just
great getting a lot of thefeedback from those folks.
Really, a bright group ofteachers, super committed, had a
lot of great notes on not onlythings that we could add some
different ways of thinking abouthow we approach certain

(07:15):
subjects but then also like thepositive feedback too, hearing
from teachers who were newteachers, veteran teachers as
well, coming across new anddiverse methods of instruction
they didn't previously consideror having supplemental resources
they wouldn't have previouslyhad access to.
I mean that's quite rewarding.
The other piece of this, however, is you want to go beyond

(07:38):
making teachers feel as thoughthey're doing something
effective or feeling efficient.
Right, this is just the firststep, kind of the tip of the
iceberg.
Really we are looking at thelargest bottlenecks being
validation, verification of theAI outputs themselves that
you're putting into theinstructional context, and
prompting.
I mean prompting andverification are really the two

(07:58):
large bottlenecks.
We got a long way to do kind ofmore of that alignment work on
our side.
So we have a partnershipcurrently where we are looking
with CZI, the Chan ZuckerbergInitiative, using their
evaluator tools.
This allows us to really get inon a very fine level and look
at text complexity and sentencestructure and ensure that when

(08:21):
you're selecting different gradelevels on EduA, that's coming
through in the outputs from theAI and that we're able to better
constrain the AI for thosegrade level texts and then just
continue to expand out ourknowledge graph of learning
sciences research that we use tomake rubrics and kind of grade
the responses ourselves whilewe're testing and developing
them.
That's been a pretty rewardingexperience.

(08:42):
I'm pretty happy with wherethat knowledge graph is and how
these prompts are looking andhow things are coming out now.
So I mean a lot of work there.
But you know those juststreamed wall of text got old
pretty fast for most people.
So it's like we went the way oflike really highly structured
outputs.
So graphic organizers, venndiagrams, freya model stuff,
marking the text, exercises,really structured games, so like

(09:04):
.
These things are themed,templated, formatted.
You have total control over allof it.
You could change the colors,change which pieces are there,
add a collaboration activitywith one click, take it away,
add in a summarization orretrieval questions or whatever.
It's all very modular, reallyeasy to use and really in a
classroom ready package.

Excellent.
I love it and, like youmentioned, classroom ready
package is something that'sgreat and one of the things that
I love and I'm going to bringit up too, because, of course,
having you guys on the show is Iknow that you guys really
emphasize that pedagogy first,not just the tech, as being the
core to EduAid, because normallyit's like, hey, there are are
several platforms out there andit's really all about the tech

(09:45):
and how I can do this and makethis easier for you, which is,
you know, in many ways,something that is great.
You know, as part of my researchthat I'm doing through my
dissertation, I know that that'sa major component as far as the
ease of use and doing somecertain selective tasks a lot
quicker, but I love the factthat you focus more on that
pedagogy and that practice.

(10:06):
So, thomas Hummel, I want toask you, you know, just in
continuing kind of with thisidea of what I asked Thomas T
about you still being in theclassroom and being able to use
this and work with this in theclassroom and get feedback, and
you know what has that been likeand what are some of the things
that you have been excitedabout since the last time that

(10:27):
you were on the show yeah, it'sfunny fawns like uh, you know,
every teacher has their ownidentity and my identity sort of
is like the first teacher inthe building kind of guy.

So I'm up early and I do a lot of my planning
for the school day in themorning.
Just because year 10 coming up,it's just like I don't need to
go home and spend tens of hoursa week doing this kind of stuff,
like I have everything sort ofhow I want it, but it needs to
be adjusted.
And that's where we're finding,like where we've really made

(10:58):
some serious enhancements withedu8 is like when I go in in the
morning and I start to adjustmy lessons to make them higher
quality and things are notworking the way that I need them
to work as the teacher in themoment, I blow these guys up on
the phone and I'm like I'mcalling that you know, and the
one guy, our buddy Ty, he livesout in Denver like I'm waking
him up, you know, three days aweek sometimes because we only

(11:21):
want to put out the bestpossible product that we can for
teachers.
And if I'm a teacher and I'mrunning into snags on our
product, what are we doing?
We're not actually making iteasier for people, and so we've
really tried to refine out anydifficult problems in our
product, with working with it.
But, like Thompson was saying,you know the quality of our

(11:41):
outputs.
We spend a lot of time, youknow, running the same thing on
multiple sites and checking itand just making sure that what
we're providing is of thehighest quality that we can get
for teachers and not just framedin a way that's like you know,
a lesson plan, but framed in away that it's reaching the
certain taxonomy level, it'sreaching the certain amount of

(12:05):
questions that need to be doneand just finding little ways to
improve our product to helpteachers.
I think if I create somethingand it only gave me two
questions or three questions andI needed five, most of the time
just little things like thatmake a huge difference for
teachers because we need to savethem time when time is of the
essence and time is valuable forthose teachers.

(12:27):
So excellent.

No, and that, like you said, you've kind of hit
the nail on the head.
I know that for sure on one ofyour LinkedIn posts.
And if you haven't followedThomas H, or even Thomas
Thompson, too, on LinkedIn,please do, because they do
provide and share just a lot ofwonderful content and they're
completely transparent abouttheir app.
And even, just like Thomas H Iknow you've put up a lot of

(12:49):
posts too you know you stillbeing in the classroom and, like
you said, being there early,leaving there late and talking a
little bit about you know theway teachers feel at the end of
the year and everything that yougo through.
So that's one of the thingsthat I feel is a little unique,
actually a lot unique in thefact that you are still in the
classroom while still being alot easier for teachers to use,

(13:09):
not just the tool but givingthem great pedagogy.
So, thomas T, I want to comeback.
Can I touch on that real quick?
Yeah, of course.

It's not just me at this point.
Right Like we, we are so luckywith our product to be where
we're at that we spend one day aweek literally going over
feedback from our teachers andwe get so much feedback about
the quality of what we're doingand what we're putting out there
that we spent that Thursdaymeeting.
We'll sit there and we'll justgo through all this feedback and

(13:56):
then we'll go implement thesethings and then, if it's you
know, we try to make sure thatwe're doing the best from the
people that we're trying toserve.
So it's not just me that'susing this, but it's over
800,000 teachers at this pointthat have used this thing and
it's like we really respecttheir professionalism and we
really value their feedback.
So it's not just a me thing.

(14:17):
It's like this whole thing withcommunity.
It's like-.

Community makes doing the app much easier.
There's the constant source ofinspiration, ideas, and instead
of turning away from them,especially at the critical
moments, it's important to leanin and understand that they're
coming from you.
Even if the messaging isfrustrated, it's coming from a
place of professionalfrustration.
They have a job they want to dowell, and these tools were

(14:41):
promised or given to them as away to do that.
And if they don't, then we'redoing a disservice to a very
important enterprise, which ispublic education.

Yeah, Well, thomas Hage, kind of going back into
this, this is a nice segue asfar as getting that feedback,
and, just like you mentioned,thomas Hage, I mean, you've got
thousands upon thousands ofusers, not only here in the US,
though, but I want to talk alittle bit about this
internationally, because thatwas a nice segue, because I was
just thinking too.
You know, there are severalpeople that I have seen and

(15:10):
followed that are using EduAID.
You know, in Africa, they'reusing it in other countries, so
I want to ask you you know andwe'll start off with you, thomas
T you know, as far as, like youmentioned, the feedback and the
evidence that you receive frominternational users, you know,
how have you taken that?
How has that influenced yourproduct?

(15:30):
And also, especially, you know,with localized curricula, how
has that been for you to adjustto that?

Yeah, I mean the adjustment period wasn't too
difficult, right?
We keep it pretty open in termsof what our tool was able to do
.
So when we focus on theparticular pedagogical aspects
of the tool, so whether it'sretrieval practice, distributive
practice, self-explanation,elaborative interrogation,
whatever the specific methodmight be right, those methods

(16:02):
are generalizable regardless oflocality, regardless of country
of origin.
The main difference there comesin the particular content of
what the instructor is teaching,not the method that they would
use to teach it.
Necessarily, the method shouldvary, though, depending on the
context.
I'll be clear about that.
We leave it really open for theuser to input that contextual
information where they canupload a document with their

(16:23):
curricular materials to use asthe basis for a generation.
If there's a particularstandards database that they
have to work from, we're able toingest those as well.
And of course, cedre is offeredin multiple different languages
.
Now we have specific standardstools for US-based standards.
I mean kind of our bias, giventhat we're developing in the US.
So common core math, commoncore English, next generation

(16:46):
science, things that we'relooking at.
Bringing in the IB curriculumis definitely an area of
interest and importance as we'reworking with newer
international schools.
But generally I mean the biggestgap is, of course, the ability
to access the tool right.
That in itself is the biggestbarrier, not so much barriers

(17:07):
within the tool.
There are linguistic barriers.
There are barriers in likesampling, for example, like the
kind of things the AI willprovide, as examples tend to be
kind of US-based.
That's not just an Eduate thing, that's a general AI phenomenon
currently, like you know, thesame thing would have happened
if you were to use a school AIor magic school or any of these

(17:28):
other players in foreigncountries.
If you're building on top ofthe foundation models developed
in the US, using mostly Englishcorpa, you'll run into the same
issue.
I mean.
So the independent testing Ithink Hummel correct me if I'm
wrong, was it Ken Sheldon whodoes this where he'll test a
particular historical topic that, depending on the context, can

(17:50):
be either framed in a US basisor framed in a few other
different contextual bases aswell, and usually the AI will
default to the US examples inhis prompting.
So I mean it's definitely a gap,something that you have to
continue to work on.
It is prompting, so I mean it'sdefinitely a gap, something
that you have to continue towork on.
But for us, again focusing onthe pedagogical moves, the
methods being at that level,that certainly, I think, helps

(18:19):
us kind of translate EduAid intoother countries and around the
world.
But to the access piece, I meanwe have the EduAid scholarship
program where we just kind ofgive access to EduAid away for
free to folks who otherwisemight be able to get their hands
on it or it's prohibitivelyexpensive, whatever it might be,
because we're coming from aperspective where we view
education as a public good, as afoundational human right, and

(18:39):
the methods and materials tosupport instruction, I mean they
should just be as open as andaccessible as the instruction
itself.
Like, if you're locking thosebehind very strict paywalls,
yeah, you got to keep the lightson, like that's one thing, but
if you make it totallyinaccessible, I mean I think
it's a crisis that we see inresearch and science right now.
A lot of the great papers arelocked behind paywalls.
Independent researchers arebasically locked out.

(19:01):
I mean, who's got $35 to dropon one research article or, you
know, thousands of dollars for acollection?
So I mean those gaps are alwaystop of mind as we're building
and trying to expand access tothe tool.

Yeah, no, absolutely Just kind of.
Before I go back to Thomas H,you know talking about, you know
paywalls.
I mean even just myself havingto do research and finding
articles, and then all of asudden it's like, hey, here's
the link.
And then all of a sudden it'slike well, you got to pay this
and you got to pay that.
I was like excellent academia.
You know I'm trying to getinformation to continue to grow
and continue to do the research,and there it is, and but I get

(19:43):
it.
You know.
You know, within theinternational schools and even
here locally.
I know that for a fact and I'veheard many of my friends too as
well say that they're verythankful for the work that
you're doing in that.
And so, thomas H, kind of goingback on that too as well, in
your experience, you know in theclassroom too as well.
You know being able to get thatfeedback from just

(20:04):
international educators.
You know what does that feellike.
You know building somethingthat is now not only in the
hands of US teachers but alsointernationally.
You know what are some of yourbig takeaways and how has that
helped you continue to growwithin EduAid and Edu altogether

(20:24):
.

Yeah, I mean when we first started this Fonz, I
think that anybody will besurprised at where this has gone
.
I mean the workspace flow thatwe've made right you see that
almost everywhere now, which iscrazy and all kinds of different
products, and so we just feelreally blessed to be able to
bring this to teachers and allover the world.

(20:46):
And, specifically, somethingthat I'm super proud of is that
there's a lot of teachers in theKenya area of Africa that don't
get especially like the ruralpart.
They don't have a whole lot ofaccess, and we've been able to
tap in through LinkedIn ordifferent places, different
venues of social media and stuff.
But we've been able to tap inthrough LinkedIn or different
places, different venues ofsocial media and stuff, but
we've really connected with them.

(21:06):
And we've guaranteed lifesubscriptions to the Million
Teacher Movement in Africa,which spans across multiple
countries.
We've guaranteed life access toEduAid for that, and so you
know, while we've only givenaway a few thousand accounts
already, which is still a lotright, like, if you added up the
numbers financially, it wouldbe a ton of money for us but we

(21:27):
are just so lucky to be in aspot where we can do the good
that we set out to do and thatit doesn't like prevent us from
also maintaining the businessthat we have.
And so, uh, things like themillion teacher movement, things
like our scholarship program,uh, it just it brings me so much

(21:48):
joy to help teachers save timeand to create higher quality
lessons, because the rippleeffect of that doing that good
piece is like you don't knowwhere that's gonna go, but you
know that the ripple is thereand that it's going to expand,
and so it just really gets me.
I have imposter syndromesometimes because I walk into my

(22:10):
school in my cheap, crappylittle Volkswagen car and yet my
product's being used in Africaor being used in Vietnam you
could go down the list In 120different countries that day
it's going to be used and itjust it really makes me feel
weird about myself in someregards, but it also gives me a

(22:33):
sense of pride and, yeah, evenmore than that, like I now feel
responsible, like I don't knowif I had to and, thomas, I don't
know if you feel that way, butwe at least I do I feel
responsible for doing the rightthing in this space and that
when you have teachers who arepeople that are just trying to
do good and you kind of havethem using that product.

(22:57):
There's a huge responsibilitythere To not.
You know, we don't want to makethem feel any way, but you know
better about their job andthat's it Like.
We want them to feel energized,we want them to feel good about
teaching and, at the end of theday, if people love teaching
even more because of our product, we've done so much good in

(23:18):
this world that you can't evenwrap your head around pretty
much.

And that's excellent and you know that's
something that is great, thomas,and I think that's something
that is definitely you should beproud of.
You know in that and I knowimposter syndrome a lot of us
deal with it, you know in thatsense but just the fact, like I
said, it's just a testament ofthe hard work and consistency
that both of you have been ableto do and bring since the very
beginning.
So I love that and you know,that's something that I really

(23:45):
do appreciate from you all andthe work that you're doing,
because there's LinkedIn postsupon LinkedIn posts also the
international teachers juststating how thankful they are to
be able to have access to atool, a platform like yours to
be able to do what they do bestand enhance that learning and be
able to help their studentscontinue to learn in that so I

(24:08):
kind of yeah, go ahead.

I think that this comes out of the fact that
thomas and I started teaching ina really low income, like
hurting area, and we didn't youknow, we didn't set out to like
change the world right off theget-go, but we did set out to
make a difference in the areasthat need it the most.
And that's why I think wheneverthings like that, like the
million teacher movement, popsup in africa and we can support

(24:31):
that, I think that that justresonates so much more with how
we started this thing well, Ikind of want to change the
conversation over a little bitas and we'll come back to a
couple of questions that I dowant to ask especially you.

You know a recent substack that Thomas Thompson
pushed or, you know, pushedthrough I think it was today and
so on that really caught myattention.
But I want to ask you you knowI just came back from Misty and
I mean, really, it's AI is allthe rage.
You know there's so manyplatforms.
I think my biggest takeaway Iwon't say what the platform

(25:07):
platform was, but their spielwas.
They kind of caught me in anaisle as I was just kind of
walking and they're like hey,have you heard of our app?
And I was like no, I haven'ttell me a little bit more.
And they're like well, you see,these apps over here they help
the teachers before the lesson.
These apps over here help theteachers after the lesson, but
we help them during.
And I'm like like, okay, tellme more.
And he goes oh well, it's anapp that you download and your

(25:29):
teacher wears either the phonearound their neck or is somehow
mic'd to their phone and itreally just kind of keeps those
notes and again, I guess eitheroffer suggestions or some kind
of you know write up afterwardsand so on, some kind of you know
write up afterwards and so on.
And to me I was like, well,what about student voice?
And what, if there's you knowthat PII?

(25:50):
Oh well, the teacher wears themic.
It shouldn't the students, youknow, you shouldn't be able to
hear the teacher voice, and soon.
And so there's a lot, a lot oftools that are out there.
Now, of course, with that,there's a lot of people that are
kind of in the middle and tryand be in the middle, like
myself.
There's also, of course, you'vegot, you know, people that are

(26:11):
just really on the AI hype train.
There's others that are stillkind of wait and see.
So there's people at differentlevels and, as we even saw, just
the advocacy that has come upand the skepticism of AI and
education, you know, as we seeMicrosoft and do this push, you
know, with other platforms and,of course, aft, you know, giving

(26:33):
this alarm of.
You know teachers are here.
We don't have to worry aboutgetting AI being replaced by AI.
How is that, you know, for youall, both as founders, as
educators, as people that aretrying to do good, how do you

(26:53):
navigate that tension on the dayto day?
Do you just really lean intothe hype or do you respond, you
know, to that pushback, you know, in not necessarily pushing
that pushing people back, butyou know and maybe justback, you
know, and not necessarilypushing that pushing people back
, but you know and maybe justsaying, okay, well, this is kind
of that pushback that we get.
How might we adjust?
So I want to start off with you, thomas H first, and then we'll

(27:15):
start.
We'll go to Thomas T.

Thomas, maybe he should go first.
I'm the unhinged one.

Okay, all right, we'll let him go first.

First, I'm the unhinged one, okay alright, if I
start, who knows where this isgonna end yeah, I'll begin by
saying I think hype is thereason why the statement believe
half of what you see and noneof what you hear probably so
salient.
Ultimately, I worry in that Iknow teachers have been burned

(27:44):
by educational technology onquite a few occasions.
Historically right, the promiseof personalization has been
around since like 2008,.
And it was going to be MOOCsthat are going to lead to true
personalized learning andsupreme access and lack of a
need for structured institutionsand things like this.
But ultimately, I worry thattoo much focus on AI will lose

(28:09):
sight of how we should bedesigning these tools, which is
an understanding, or at least atheory of mind, of how people
actually learn, of how peopleactually teach, of how people
actually develop, and that ifyour tool does not in some
meaningful way interact with oneof these three domains, it's
like what's the purpose of thetool at that level?
It's like the tech being kindof inserted in as a substitution

(28:35):
of something you already do.
It might not be, it's not goodenough at that point, like the
technology should not just bemerely substituting something
you could already do, but hey,it's a new platform.
It should like in somemeaningful way interface with
what you do on a day-to-daybasis.
So we try to avoid the hype.
We kind of have a strict ruleinternally where we try to avoid

(28:55):
like using like the buzzwordsin conversation, because it's
just kind of easy to like hidewhat you really think behind
some of those terms.
So we just try to speak assimply and precisely as possible
.
I mean just off, prettythorough and delicate and how
you kind of phrase things, butin general it's just like get to
the base of the problem.
And the base of the problem isokay, you want to assist

(29:18):
teachers at the level ofplanning, so maybe they're
slightly more efficient, feelless pressure, burnout, these
kinds of things, but more.
Finally, more crucially, wewant to bridge that gap between
research and practice andeducation.
With a high translation cost oftrying to be a highly effective
teacher, trying to translatekind of just rolls of thumb,
like space your practice, bringin new concepts into practice.

(29:40):
But like when?
When to space?
When do I bring in new concepts?
Generative AI has an incredibleamount of promise there, but
it's not the everything toolThinking you can put students in
front of AI tutors and it'sgoing to solve education.
I'm not really sure that'swhere we should be going.
One reason is, I think a lot oftechnologists discount the

(30:03):
embodied human factors that areimportant for teaching and
learning.
I mean, why does a lot ofin-person instruction work?
Humans have a tendency towardsconformity, I think, in general.
So when you're working with agroup of other students, your
peers and a mentor figure in theclassroom, there's this
pressure to conform right andour kind of natural hardwiring

(30:24):
kind of goes for that right.
But if you unmoor us from thatgroup environment where we're
interacting with our peers andinteracting with the authority
figure, and I'm just sitting inmy room on a computer talking to
an AI chatbot, where's thatpressure, where's the desire,
where's the motivation, where'sthe engagement?
I mean, those are all piecesthat I think are generally
lacking and why we seelackluster returns from AI

(30:45):
tutoring systems presently.
It's really difficult to do that, especially when you can say
IDK three times and the AI tutorjust gives you the answer and
it's like well, okay, so what'sthe theory of learning there?
Are we suggesting that it'sjust exposure to correct answers
?
No, not quite.
So it's like what's the purposeof the AI intervention?
What is the purpose of the tool, what are the unique
affordances, what are itsboundaries and how do you adopt

(31:06):
that into your unique context?
And if you don't have answersto those questions, as a
developer, you probably questionyour motives.
That might have been stronglyworded, but I figured if I come
out strong maybe Hummel willhelp bring it down, or he's just
going to keep us climbing here.
I don't know.

Yeah, I don't know .
Maybe that might have calmedhim a bit.
But, as always, I'm definitelyvery interested in, thomas H,
what you have to say about this.
I mean, you've seen the space.
I know you're very active onLinkedIn and all social media.

And so you see it , all I out of alpha school,
where their kids all scored inthe top two percent of the state
on the state testing.
And if you don't have aneducation background, why would
you not send your kids there?
You know what I mean.
Why would you not give them theopportunity to be in the top
two percent like everybody elsethat has gone to that school?

(32:08):
And so, while I think that youknow that is not real for
everybody and I spend most of mytime as a teacher trying to
engage and motivate my studentsrather than, you know,
necessarily diving into thecurriculum all the time and
actually learning new things,right Like, there's a huge part
of my job.
That is the engagement piece,that is the motivating piece

(32:29):
that a chatbot can never do andthat a student who is not
motivated will never getanything out of.
But there is a select bit ofstudents who are highly
motivated, whose parents aresending them to schools like the
Alpha School and those otherthings and they're performing
super well.
And I get really worried, fawnsis that.
I think last time we talkedabout this there wasn't any data

(32:53):
out on the, on the alpha schooltesting and stuff like that,
and I was like, oh, who knows ifyou put your kids in front of a
chat bot and all this stuff.
But when they have a reallygood performance, like those
kids did this last year, I dothink it puts public education
on a pretty shaky groundsometimes Just because we're not

(33:14):
getting great results allacross the nation from our
schools.
In fact, we're getting subparresults across the nation from
our schools, and so I don'treally know what the answer is.
I don't have an answer, but Ido.
I do know that you know I have ason.
We are looking at new areas tomove because the school district

(33:36):
at which I teach is not thatgreat.
It's a five out of ten onzillow, uh, and the only thing
I'm looking at when I go to anew school is a 10 out of 10
school.
When I'm looking at new houses,it's for a 10 out of 10 school,
and I'm not the only one that'slike that in the world and
people move to new areas basedon the quality of the school and

(33:57):
trying to do what's best fortheir kid.
And so I don't know.
As a teacher, I'll tell youright now I would never put a
chatbot in front of my student,because I know it's a
probabilistic model and that ifit makes a mistake which it will
because of probability that Iwould be on the hook for that.
But as a parent, fonz, if Ihave an opportunity to send my

(34:19):
kids to a school whereeverybody's scoring in the top
2% and it doesn't cost meanything extra for X, y and Z
reasons, what are you going todo?
And, of course, you're going tochoose what's what you think is
going to give your kid the bestresults.
And so I get really worriedthat we've pushed some subpar
tools into public education.

(34:40):
And here we are with someprivate schools that are doing a
great job at getting theirstudents to perform.
I'm not sure that theconversation, uh, doesn't skew
in that direction here in thenext few years.
I'm not, you know.
I mean, I believe in teachers.
I think teachers are the bestpeople on earth, I think they
make the biggest impact youcould go down the list but

(35:01):
that's not how our society feelsabout teachers and that's
certainly not how our societyfeels about education.
And I get worried wheneverchatbot based schools are having
super great results and whatthat means for education as a
whole, what that means forpublic schools, what that means
for people in low-income areas.
Everything that I've beenworking towards and I think last

(35:22):
time I had a really likecynical view on this perspective
like, uh, you know, chatbotsnot good.
Putting Abraham Lincoln infront of students is a lie if
it's a chatbot and all thesethings, which I still believe in
.
But some of the results thatare coming out from people are
insane and, um, it makes youthink.
It certainly makes you standback and think about what this

(35:44):
means for education yeah, no,that makes perfect sense.

I know, when I was researching alpha school
because there's one here locallyin my area that's about an hour
and a half away, which is veryin the same city now that uh,
the star base is for, uh, youknow, uh, the rocket launches
and everything.
So I'm pretty sure that that'llbe the school that'll continue
to grow, especially with whatthey charge with tuition.
But before and this was beforethey got all the hype I know

(36:11):
that they had their curriculumup on the website and then all
of a sudden it came down.
But the last time I checked Iknow that they were using IXL
for math, which is really just.
You know, you go in there,students can go select a
specific skill and they justkind of sit there and practice
the skill.
I don't know what else theyadded.
I know for the high school theyused to use some of the

(36:32):
Play-Doh software, which isreally like credit recovery
software that they would use.
But now you know, it's veryinteresting to see what it is
that they would use and I mayhave to take them up on an offer
on a tour that they offered me.
Take them up on an offer on atour that they offered me.
So just to kind of see whatit's all about, and especially
the local one here, and see like, as you said, you know there

(36:52):
are some, you know it's comingout, there's data that's coming
out.
As far as that is concerned, mything is is always just even
within a school district where Iwork at, it's always the
Southside kids have more accessto things outside of school.
So you know the outside tutorsand things of that sort, and it
always was that they would dobetter because they would have

(37:14):
that access.
Or you know a parent at homewhere the Northside kids it was,
they didn't have that supportat home, and so I know that that
plays into a role of thosethings.
But one of the things, and oneof the things too, though, is
that I feel like every studentcan learn.
You know it's not.
I just don't like the fact thatthey say, well, you know it's,
it's the Northside kids, it'sexpected.

(37:35):
No, you know we got to raisethose standards too.
But anyway, that's a wholeother conversation.
But kind of talking back andtalking about, you know,
chatbots and talking about LLMs,I know, thomas T, you posted
something on LinkedIn.
It was actually today.
You know you were revisitingyou know taxonomy here.
Let me get the actual title ofthat.

(37:56):
It says Revisiting a Taxonomyof LLMs for Education
Application.
So and I know you wrote areally nice post there, very
descriptive You've got you knowtalking about domains and
subdomains and things of thatsort.
So I want to ask you you know,in writing this and revisiting
this, you know like and I lovethe subtitle it says a taxonomy
is a picture of the thing, aparticular form.

(38:23):
Tell me a little bit about yourthought process as far as
writing this sub stack and theinformation that you shared here
.

So I thought that was pretty insightful as
writing this sub stack and theinformation that you shared here
.
So I thought that was prettyinsightful.
Yeah, so it's essentially justtaking a look at the.
It's like 20 authors on thispaper Wong is the head author
2024,.
The paper is called LargeLanguage Models for Education a
Survey and Outlook, and theyproposed essentially a taxonomy
of different instructionalimplications of LLMs.

(38:47):
You've probably seen itcirculated all over the place.
Even if you don't knowlisteners, if you don't know
what I'm talking about, you'veprobably seen the chart.
It's like academic research,study, assisting teach,
assisting adaptive learningtries to essentially catalog all
the different domains of largelanguage models, and I think the
reason why the title is what itis is that I mean, like all

(39:09):
taxonomies, it's a veryparticular picture of education.
It's a way of looking atteaching and learning that
centers on, in this case,performance as the sole
benchmark of quality.
So, like teaching and learning,in this taxonomy it consists of
like discrete, automatableunits like question solving,
error correction, materialcreation.
I don't think any teacher woulddescribe their job as just

(39:32):
question solving, errorcorrection and materials
creation.
There's much more to it.
Right, it doesn't capture thefull grammar of educational
activities.
It doesn't capture the livedcontext in which those
activities gain meaning, which Ithink is a particularly unique
boundary for large languagemodels in that while they're
doing this kind of broadstatistical modeling of language

(39:52):
, they don't have kind of thecontext in which parts of
language gain meaning in context, right.
So some certain words andphrases might mean different
things to teachers than it wouldto say, like someone who is not
in the field.
For example, the word taxonomyitself right for a teacher it
evokes ideas of like bloom'staxonomy or um marzona's

(40:15):
taxonomy.
But if you say taxonomy to um abiologist, right, they might
think of like the taxonomy ofdifferent animals, right, we're
almost.
For example, that's thetaxonomy of creatures,
biological things.
Hummel, was that?
I muddled through that, okay, Ihad a science reference and I
want to make sure it's only abonehead.
So, like in general, I thinkit's not a critique of the paper

(40:38):
.
I think they did an admirablejob with what they did.
But I think it shows somethingthat the field itself views
education.
When I say the field itself,right, the broad swath of AI
research, ai tooling provided toteachers very much treats
teaching as this kind of set oftasks that can be almost

(41:00):
automated away, so tools forsolving problems, generating
questions, creating materials,but those actions themselves
they don't carry meaning justbecause you did them right.
They carry meaning in how youdeploy them.
A good question is only reallya good question when it engages
that student in meaning makingin the classroom At the proper
time.
A follow-up question at theproper time A follow-up question

(41:23):
only gains meaning when you askthat follow-up question again
at the proper time, at theproper place to the right
student.
That's when that question gainsmeaning, because otherwise it's
just sitting around and notreally doing anything.
And I worry about the general.
The taxonomy is technicallyaccurate.
I think these tools are outthere.
There are tools for questionsolving and question creation,

(41:44):
but that's not what's important.
Necessarily the drafting of thematerials are.
But it's why you ask thequestions how we correct
students when we guide students,what it means for something to
be understood.
Large language model has noconception of any of these
things because it has noconception of anything.
So when you're working with anAI, you shouldn't think of it as
a thought partner.

(42:05):
It's not really that.
What you're doing is you'replaying a language game with a
computer and you're trying toI'd say trick, but you're not
really tricking it, because itdoesn't have intentionality
either.
What you're trying to do isjust select your words carefully
so you put it in this languagegame, so it repeats back
language that looks like highquality instruction.
It doesn't understand highquality instruction, but we can
trick it with language such thatwhat it returns appears to be

(42:28):
that Now, that can be hollow,that can be thin, that can be
factually inaccurate if you'renot taking proper precautions.
But even if you take quoteunquote proper precautions and I
can dive into what those areyou're still not going to
completely eliminatehallucinations from AI responses
.
You can't.
They're in a form of the system.
They're a unique, emergentproperty of the probabilistic

(42:52):
mapping of language in responseto inputs.
You will always have some levelof hallucination.

There's no the teacher's expertise.
There is no other thing thatcan replace that, and that's
what we build our system on.

Yeah, no and that's something, oh, and I kind
of wanted to add a little bitto what you're saying.
I know it came up a little bitin the chat a while back that
you were talking about, like youknow, chatbots.
And you know, if you put IDK,idk, idk, of course are we

(43:32):
talking about, you know, justthat exposure to the right
answers and just correcting.
You know, are we missing out onso many more things?
And obviously you've mentioneda lot of things you know and,
like Thomas H, you just saidright now that you know there
are some things that the AIcannot replace that teachers can
do, as opposed to, like youmentioned, very probabilistic
answers.
And I know, back in episode 324,I believe, I had Charlie Myers
who was on here and said youknow, it's pretty much just a

(43:52):
data set, like in a matrix, thatyou know you're putting in an
answer and then you know it'sjust going to give you something
back.
You know it's a mathematicalequation, but the way that he
said it and I don't know how youthink about this too but he
said you know, if we were beingcompletely honest, that when we
are putting a chatbot in frontof a student and it said, hey,
I'm just a chatbot.

(44:13):
I have no context about you, Idon't know anything about you,
but you're giving me thisquestion and I'm going to give
you a question without you knowwhatever it is that I know and I
can crank out.
You know, is this really whatyou're putting in front of your
students and what is yourthought process in doing that?
You know.
So I think that that'ssomething that we need to think

(44:33):
about.
As I know, thomas H youmentioned it with a couple of
platforms that may say, hey, youknow, go ahead and talk to
Abraham Lincoln, but how well isthat information going to come
in?
How accurate is it going to be,and is there still room for the
teacher to be able to go aheadand make any corrections and
make sure that they vet theinformation properly?
And so those are just kind ofthe things that I think about,

(44:55):
too, when students are haveaccess to, you know, an LLM,
whether it's a persona thatthey're talking to, historical
figure, or if it's just the LLMitself.
So I want to ask you, you knowwhat are some of the challenges?
Thomas H, I'll go with you,like this past year and just
this past year, we'll focus onthis, because I know it's been a

(45:15):
long road, but in this pastyear, what have been some of the
major challenges that you'veseen within your school?
You know as far as teachersusing AI within their classrooms
.

Yeah, the biggest challenge is that we don't have
time to even learn AI.
I went this whole year.
I planned for an eighth gradeclass that never even hired an
eighth grade teacher, so we justhad rotating subs the entire
year, and that's just thereality of most schools.
I think like 70 percent ofschools have a vacancy.
That's available and it's hardto get to a spot where you're

(45:47):
thriving if you're worried aboutsurviving, and that's where
most schools are at, most publicschools are at right now.
So my school has done zero AIpolicy.
Cbs tried to come in and filmus and like film me and Thomas
whenever we were first startedwith EduAid me and Thomas

(46:08):
whenever we were first startedwith EduAid and they denied CBS
from coming in and doing aninterview because they were so
scared about the reputation ofAI and what that means for our
local community and things.
And so I'm on our AI committee.
We've issued some guidancewhere now every single
assignment, a teacher has todictate the amount of AI that
the student is allowed to use onit.

(46:29):
I'm not sure that thatnecessarily covers everything,
but it does start to frame theworld.
It doesn't allow us to hidefrom the fact that this
technology is here.
So maybe, if it's an essay,I'll tell my students this is a
five.
You cannot use any AI on it atall.
If you do, that would beconsidered cheating or something
like that.
That's the idea with theguidelines of the ai.

(46:49):
But uh, my school is so farbehind and fawns.
I'll even tell you this we justdid a maryland summit over
outside of dc and baltimore, andI was the only person from my
school district to attend thesummit.
And not only that, I was one ofthree people from the entire
general area in which we livethat attended the summit.
And not only that, I was one ofthree people from the entire
general area in which we livethat attended the summit.

(47:10):
And so, to me, I'm a bigbeliever that this is going to
continue to create this digitaldivide and it's only going to
amplify it because, like, peoplearen't even like and I'm not
trying to be a hater here butlike, the school districts where
I live don't even care.
They don't even care to dowhat's best for the students,
they don't even care about thisinformation.
They're just trying to hireenough teachers to staff their

(47:33):
building and that's their numberone priority.
So you know where I'm from andwhere I'm dealing with it like
on a personal level.
Who knows?
I mean, we have it's the WildWest still of AI and it's year
three, so there's no plans in myschool district at all to guide
or to do anything.
In fact, they actually boughtTurnitin and I had to throw a

(47:56):
huge fit because nobody evenread any of the data about how
those things work, whether theycan actually identify AI or
anything like that, and so youknow, I live in that kind of
system and there's many likethat out there.

Yeah, you know and it's very interesting just to
kind of go back to that that youmentioned that there are many
schools that really, at thispoint, yes, the conversations
are kind of being had, there'sthat summer slide, but you know
what, now that I'm coming back,it's like I got to worry to make
sure that I do have a teacherin a classroom and so on, and so
that's where those prioritiesare.

(48:31):
Now my thing is, and I'm goingto ask you this and then I kind
of want to go back.
We'll go back into some of thegreat updates and new things
that you're bringing out to EDU8.
As founders, you know, andgetting just an honest answer
from you, you know, being atISTE and seeing, you know, kind
of like the big five companiesthat are out there slowly, that

(48:53):
are that were at ISTE, that arekind of slowly just being a
predominant name or verywell-known name as a founder,
you know, and as much effort asthey put into this, sometimes I
feel like, you know, are they alittle bit out of touch and
think that this is a perfectutopia, that everybody should
have access to AI, and theyreally don't consider, you know,

(49:16):
what is happening here, likeyou described, thomas H, and so
I kind of want to know from you,you know, as EduAID founders,
what are your thoughts here?
You know, as, as EduAID founders, what are your thoughts here?
You know, because, again, I seethat people are all in and and
in in our bubble and the bubblethat I was in this last weekend,
I feel like everybody's like no, we all have it, we all have it

(49:38):
, everybody should have it,everybody should be using it,
everybody should have access.
And I'm like do you not knowthat other school districts have
other issues and biggerproblems, and you know teacher
shortages and all of that, butthe push is go, go, go, go, go,
ai, ai.
So I want to ask you how do youguys keep your feet grounded,
because I feel like you guys arevery well grounded, you know,

(50:00):
and, kind of, because of ThomasH, you're still in the classroom
.
So, thomas T, I'll go with you.
How does that work for you both?
What do you see?
And how do you guys just kindof, you know, understand that
man, we ourselves, as foundersare, have some barriers to
overcome to make sure that wecan help teachers?

yeah, I mean one area where we're
particularly lucky is thatthomas humble is obstinate in
his desire to stay in theclassroom, like will not come on
the edu-A full time, despitethe pleas for more assistance.
But I'm kidding, he likes tostay in the classroom and we
respect this decision preciselybecause one he sees the

(50:42):
application in action.
It's one thing to gatherfeedback.
It's one thing to have userssend you know videos of their
usage of the tool to you.
It's it's one thing to dostudies, and but if you I mean
it's something that I even findmyself missing now that I'm no
longer in the classroom was likestepping into that building in
the morning and working withstudents and like maybe I'm

(51:05):
getting too far away intothinking about like philosophy
of education and the science oflearning and things like this,
because on the day, on day today, it's like how much was that
crossing my mind while I was inthe classroom.
You know, how much was um, Idon't know, just to pick out
some random like uh tech toolplatforms that were around, like
how much was Kealo, or or, ornuzella or, um, I don't know,

(51:29):
canva at the top of my mind on,I didn't, the tool was a means
to an end, right?
I'm concerned about my studentbehaviors.
I'm concerned about myclassroom management.
I'm concerned about reachingthe, the 25 students in front of
me.
I'm concerned that when I saysomething, I think an action as
a teacher that's going to setoff 25 minds in different
reactions which will then bounceoff of each other and cause

(51:51):
even more reactions liketeaching is a very messy and
chaotic thing.
I mean, my classroom is reallywell run.
I don't want to sound like I had, like was struggling to manage
my classroom, like I hadroutines and structures from day
one and like had that down, butwhat I'm saying is it's very
easy if you are not in theclassroom to be removed from the

(52:11):
day-to-day struggle and contextof the teacher.
And if you were removed fromthe day-to-day context, that the
means of life as a teacher.
You don't have that samegrammar, you're not speaking the
same language, so to speak.
You're kind of talking pasteach other, which is very common
, I think, in think, in theworld today.
So it's like technologists,even most well-intentioned
individuals, have this kind ofjust grammatical gap from the

(52:34):
daily experience of the educator.
And that's very tough.
I mean, that's something thatyou're going to see reflected in
AI outputs as well.
I mean the day-to-dayinteractions between a teacher
and student.
They're not documented.
I mean, there are plenty ofblogs out there that maybe talk
about this and it might be inthe training data, but it's not
a thing that is so prominent andso discernible.

(52:55):
Also, learning is, for allintents and purposes, invisible.
It's not something that we cansee, it's not something that you
can point to and like ithappens internally in the
student's mind, mind.
So we have all these proxiesthat take place for it, right?
Um, some good, some not so good.
Like when I first startedteaching, uh, the school I was

(53:15):
teaching at with hummeladmittedly had terrible proxies.
It's like, did you have yourlearning objective and success
criteria on the board and didyou refer to them?
Like, well, this is a proxy forquality, but how does this in
any way relate to real andmeaningful learning on the part
of the student?
It doesn't.
So it's like I worry about theproxies taken by those who are
not in the classroom.

(53:35):
I worry about kind of havingthat contextual barrier where
you're not really speaking thesame language.
I also worry that education isincredibly faddish, right, we
like to repackage things and sayit's something brand new.
It's like okay, discoverylearning, inquiry-based learning
, self-guided learning, like allof these things are essentially
the same thing, just like someslight PR changes.

(53:57):
It's like, so, even at thatlevel, like we can't even get on
the same page of what we'retalking about from one school to
the next or one classroom tothe next.
What one of what we're talkingabout?
From one school to the next orone classroom to the next, what
one teacher might call?
a specific method anotherteacher will call another.
Sorry, there's a terrible stormoutside.
I'm getting a lot of backgroundnoise.
So I mean I said a lot there.

(54:20):
If I had to like summarize thisdown to like the prime concerns,
it's like very easy to findyourself in your own kind of
language game, your own bubble,so to speak, and very easy to
then like assume you're talkingabout the same thing as other
folks, just to realize thatyou're that you're not right.
That's a great tip aboutmarriage as well.
It's not the fights that youhave, it's when you think you're

(54:41):
in agreement, without actuallyever having the conversation to
make sure that you are.
You're just assuming the otherperson has the same expectations
, needs, wants and desires, andit's like the needs and wants
and desires and theory of mindof a technologist will not be
the same as a teacher.
So it also helps that we don'tlive in a tech hub either.
Like I live in Annapolis,maryland.
I go to the coffee shop by StJohn College, I talk to teachers

(55:03):
.
I'm very much, my feet are onthe ground and kind of removed
from the conference scene.
So when I go to something likean ISTE or ASUGSB, it's like
whoa, this is a whole new worldfrom what I'm accustomed to in
Maryland.

And Thomas H.
I'll go with you too because Iwant to get your feedback.
I know being said that you werethe only one in your school, I
mean, and I went to ISTE thisyear and it was my second ISTE,
but this year I got toparticipate a little bit more.
But it just seems likesometimes I think, like man,
like this is just a bubblethat's here and we kind of lose

(55:38):
all sense and notion of realityof how things can really be at
other school districts.
So I want to ask you that youknow how do you keep your feet
ground?
Obviously, I think it's justbecause of the experience that
you're still there in theclassroom.

But tell me your thoughts and you know it's super
weird, because tech is anabundance industry where they
just make tons of money, havetons of money, have all kinds of
funding, and you know, money isnever an issue with tech, but
then education money is alwaysan issue.
Money is never an issue withtech, but then education money
is always an issue, and it's ascarcity industry.
And so it's funny how, you know, we see the difference between

(56:12):
these two things, and the bridgebetween those two could not be
any further.
Their product would be totallydifferent than what it actually
is, because you would have abetter understanding of what it
actually means to be grounded inthe classroom and providing

(56:33):
instruction, being forward,thinking about it Right, like I
can't just teach a class onWednesday and not know where
that's going on Thursday orFriday, and those kind of things
.
Like just that whole mindset istotally missed in education.
Or is it missed in the ed techdepartment of education?
And there's just if you thinkabout where we've been for the

(56:53):
last 15 years, we've only seen adecrease in the quality of our
education and the outcomes ofour students.
And yet everybody who has atech product tells you that it's
the best thing that's ever cometo be and it's going to save
all the problems, but thegeneral trend of education is
heading in the complete oppositedirection.
And so that goes to tell me thateither people are a uh, you

(57:17):
know, they believe theirproducts and they believe that
they can solve the world'sproblems, or, b that they're
lying and it's just disingenuousand that they're trying to make
money off the backs of teachersand students and you know I
don't want to put that onanybody, but that's the reality
of it is that if you're going tomake these promises and you
don't keep them, there areconsequences to it.
And I'll give you one here isthat the Gallup poll that just

(57:40):
came out said that teachers aresaving six hours a week with AI,
but when all these productscame out, it was 10 plus hours a
week.
And so my challenge to thesepeople and to anybody thinking
about this serious if they comeup 40 percent short on the
student department 40 percentthey come up 40 percent on their

(58:00):
expectations or theirguarantees or their promises
short.
Are you OK with that, with thathappening to a student?
I don't know why we're OK withthat happening to teachers, and
it just doesn't make sense.
And if we're not going to dowhat's best for teachers with
tech, then you truly don't careabout the students either.
And that's really concerning um, and I think that's how we stay

(58:22):
grounded.
Honestly, it's like we never theframing and intentionality.
We've never said that.
We never said this is going tosave you xyz.
We just said it's going to saveyou time and create higher
quality lessons.
And that's what all of ourusers always say, um, and so
it's really interesting, butthere's no repercussions for it,
fawn.
So you know, you could go outthere with your own ed tech
company say you're going to makeevery student get 100.
Everybody buys it, and thatdoesn't come true.

(58:46):
There's no repercussions to itat all, because the thing that's
happened with the techdepartment of educational
technology is that there's somuch money poured into the
growth of these companies, wheregrowth is the only thing that
matters, but the quality doesnot seem to follow that growth

(59:07):
and, if anything, that's justgoing to continue us on the
trend of the last 15 years, andI think that's a shame for AI,
because this is the mostrevolutionary technology that's
ever come about in my lifetimeand for us to just, you know,
continue with false claims ormarketing schemes.
It's just, it's reallyupsetting sometimes.

I mean it doesn't help that the whole
enterprise of teaching andlearning is incredibly complex
and messy and how that processworks doesn't map on neatly to
any one tool or application.
So when you frame anapplication or tool as a general

(59:49):
solution to a lot of problemsit becomes disingenuous in that
there are no general solutionsto all of the problems in
teaching.
There are particular contextualsolutions based on the
particular group of students infront of you or the particular
kind of context of the schoolthat you're working in, and it's
hard to generalize that.
We love to systematize andgeneralize it and kind of have

(01:00:11):
these broad taxonomies orframeworks for kind of viewing
everything through that lens,and those lenses run into more
trouble than they're worth.
Honestly, every tool should belike it's useful in these
particular contexts and thatshould be a fine claim to make,
but it seems it's not the claimthat leads to hype and growth,
so it's hard to claim it all.

Thomas Hummel (01:00:30):
It's hard, though , because the whole ecosystem of
ed tech, right.
Where's the governing body thatis checking the quality of
magic schools, tools, eduades,brisk, diff it?
There is none, and the onlyones that that you do, you have
to pay to get, have them do that, and so, right, it's like there
isn't an honest perspective oned tech that puts it in front of

(01:00:53):
the educators, um, and I thinkthat that's wrong.

Thomas Thompson (01:00:56):
So I mean the question also comes around what
are the measurement criteriathemselves?
Like?
It's okay, so you record timesaving, but it was like time
saving to to what it time-savingin that a novice teacher is
bypassing the hard cognitivework of doing and planning
instruction.
Are they losing intentionality?

(01:01:16):
I mean, this is something thatwe also need to consider If
we're worried about skills lossfrom over-reliance on AI at the
student level.
We need to stop pretending thatadults also don't have brains
that react to stimuli, and notthe same way as students,
obviously, but in dynamic andinteresting ways that it's not
immediately apparent.
It's like OK, so if you kind ofoutsource your upper cognitive

(01:01:40):
functioning in terms of lessonplanning and instructional
design, maybe your product, youhave the product, yet state you
have the lesson, you have thematerials.
Product, you have the product,the at stake.
Like you have the lesson, youhave the materials.
But if I was, you can envision astudy where you have let's take
100 teachers, right, you put 50of them in the control group.
They're just doing straightlesson planning, human to human,

(01:02:02):
maybe collaborative planning,they're just planning in a
vacuum with traditionalmaterials.
Um, maybe give another one,another teacher, just access to
basic search functionality.
Another group and then yourother group would be teachers
using generative AI tools.
If you were to say you need toreturn x, y and z materials, you
specify it.
I want a lesson plan.
I want the materials forinstruction to go with it.

(01:02:25):
Once you have all thosematerials, if you were to ask
each one of those teachers inthose groups to explain their
lesson to you, which group doyou think would be able to do
that best?
And is it more important thanthat we create materials of
instruction or that teachersstill have that level of
explainability where theyunderstand at the content level,
at the pedagogical level, whatit is that they're doing, why

(01:02:46):
they're doing it and when it'sappropriate to augment it and to
change it they're doing, whythey're doing it and when it's
appropriate to augment it and tochange it.
Over-reliance, I think, willalways be an issue.
Verification and prompting, Imean all of these kind of
converge, maybe at the worsttime too, with educational
outcomes being at kind ofhistorical lows.
Maybe they're bouncing backfrom the worst parts of COVID,
but still a lot of concerns outthe open there?

Fonz Mendoza (01:03:08):
Yeah, no, most definitely, I think, you guys
hit still a lot of concerns outin the open there.
Yeah, no, most definitely.
I think you guys hit on a lotof great things, and one thing
that I will say, and just thefact that you guys are just so
well-grounded really, we don'tsee you at the ISTEs, we don't
see you at TCEAs and we don'tsee you in all that but just the
fact that you're still verywell known and being very well

(01:03:30):
recognized for the work thatyou're doing and because of the
help that you bring to others,and just the pedagogy behind
this.
It's not just tech first andthat's one thing that I really
enjoy and speaking with you allthat it's not about the tech
first.
It's what can I do for theteacher first, help them, like
you said, having those levels ofexplainability, not being too

(01:03:51):
over-reliant, but just reliantenough to where they can enhance
what they are already doing,still be able to work with the
students and still be able toshare all those great things
with them.
So that's something that's hugethere.
So, as we kind of start wrappingup, though, before I want to
talk about some of the newerupdates, and I know that I've
been seeing a lot of that onsocial media as well.
So we'll go ahead and startwith Thomas H.

(01:04:13):
Tell me a little bit aboutthrough that teacher lens and
mindset.
You know what are some of theupdates there that the educators
should be thrilled about thathave come out through on your
platform.

Yeah.
So I don't know if ThomasThompson would frame it this way
, but I'm going to frame it thisway.
It's that we've done a good jobat enhancing our graphic
organizers and our games andthese are things that teachers
typically would go to TeachersPay Teachers for because
somebody else has done it at acertain quality or it's going to
save you time or X, y, z.
But we believe that ourprompting and the quality in

(01:04:48):
which we're putting out forthose things is better than, if
not comparable to, the bestteacher pay teacher stuff.
And we're doing it obviously ata fraction or no cost and I'm
really, really excited aboutthat.
It's like, how can we allowteachers to create content that
is specific for those students,specific for lessons, and that
is reaching those deeper goalsor just reaching the goals of

(01:05:11):
the lesson or the standard?
So super stoked about those twothings the graphic organizers
and the games.
There's this game we have.
It's tic-tac-toe.
Obviously, everybody knows howto play it, but I'm so excited
to get my students doing it as areview whereas I'm going to
give them questions.
I've already started makingstuff for the next year, like on
cells and stuff like that's howI start the year but like

(01:05:33):
instead of me doing like a fivequestion review, I'm going to
give them their own, like themand a partner their own separate
tic-tac-toe game with like allthe nine spaces with review
questions and stuff.
Like I cannot wait to see how Ican start to gamify my lessons
and just make them that muchmore engaging, rather than I
want to take out all of the mein the front of the classroom
and put it on the students andthe partners and like.

(01:05:55):
That's where I'm going with itthis year and I think that
Eduway is going to allow me todo that excellent Thomas, thomas
T, how about yourself?

tell me about all that excitement?

yeah, I mean, basically I've been sitting on
this binder.
This is mr claire's graphicorganizers.
I picked up my senior year ofhigh school when I first started
thinking about teaching.
It's like when I first launchededuator, like these graphic
organizers.
I use them almost every day inthe classroom, some form of them
right, being able to lay outmaterials in a very visual,

(01:06:27):
structured way.
When gendered of ai first cameout, it was the streaming walls
of text, but that got old prettyquick.
So we moved into the structuredoutputs, graphic organizers
particularly.
They were echoing each other.
Just because we're excitedabout it, we just put it out.
But one thing to note on those.
It's like here's one version ofMr Clare's change analysis

(01:06:48):
worksheet but then like here'sanother version of it, which is
the few slight alterations andtweaks.
Here's another version of it.
Right, there were alwaysdifferent versions of those same
graphic organizers floatingaround his class, depending on
the group, depending on theparticulars of the context of
the students.
So we built these such thatthere's a bunch of these like
one-click toggles where you canadd a collaboration activity to

(01:07:12):
the beginning of the Venndiagram.
Or maybe you have a Venndiagram, you add a third circle,
it will just kind ofautomatically refactor itself
based on your content, thatyou've input, but like they'll
do it dynamically, so it's allone-click differentiation, all
simple toggles.
You can add, you know, theretrieval question set to your
mark in the text exercise.
Or you can change it to a 3-2-1for writing prep, where you're

(01:07:34):
putting out three vocabularywords that you didn't understand
, two sentences.
You would rewrite what thecentral claim was.
Very fast, differentiation ofmultiple copies of materials and
like a fraction of the time itwould take me to create one
beforehand would have been verypowerful.
When I was in the Kotakclassroom working with, you know

(01:07:55):
, 15 students with IEPs, and Ineeded to do a lot of that
differentiation work.
I mean, it's no wonder thatEduAid started that year when I
was doing all of that work right, trying to do the
differentiation piece.
So that's what got me reallyexcited about organizers work,
right, you're trying to do thedifferentiation piece.
So that's what got me reallyexcited about organizers, the
community response.
We couldn't be happier with it,a lot of excitement and
interest.
And then I mean our roadmap forthe next few months has been

(01:08:18):
totally dictated by thecommunity, right?
Folks coming online saying Ilove the organizers, but let's
see some argument maps, let'ssee flow charts, let's see
storyboards, uh, analogydiagrams, the cornell
note-taking formats, conceptmaps and so on.
So it's like now we have ourplayful like we tested the, uh,
the general idea and, yes,teachers, like the um graphic

(01:08:40):
organizers, won't interact withthem, so we'll continue to build
it out.
And then I mean back-end stuffthat teachers can't see.
Right, these new evaluatortools that we have our hands on
being able to really like on avery fine-tuned level, get a
look at what our outputs are andhow we can tweak them and how
we can continue to improve theend output on EduAid is also
very exciting.

It's fun.

Like what else.
I get to wake up in the morning, I get to talk to other
educators, folks working ineducation they're educators,
folks working in education.
I get to do research, I get todo experiments.
It's truly a blessing.

That's fantastic, it's stressful sometimes.
Yeah, no, but it's fantastic thework that you're doing and just
to continue to do that.
And, again, the way that youput community first too.
I mean I know that there aremany other platforms out there
that always say, yeah, communityfirst, and I know to some
extent extent, but just the factthat you guys really do do this

(01:09:32):
and it's community first andyou really take that into
account.
And I know thomas h being atthe school too, I'm sure he
hears it from his teachers like,hey, how about trying to add a
little bit of this or a littlebit of that or something?
I mean, it's not always thatyou get to work with a
co-founder of an ai platform andthen you can give a suggestion
right then and there, and, andthat's something that's
fantastic.
So that's huge.
But, gentlemen, thank you somuch.
I really appreciate you beingon the show.

(01:09:54):
Thank you so much.
Also, from the bottom of myheart, my sincerest thanks for
being just an amazing supporterof my EdTech life and the work
that we're doing here.
Because, again, if it wasn'tfor platforms like yourself and
just not just platforms, butjust humans like yourself,
yourself and just not justplatforms, but just humans like
yourself, human beings that Iconsider friends like yourself.
Thomas Hummel, thomas Thompson,thank you so much for
everything that you've done forthis show and just that we

(01:10:16):
continue to bring these greatconversations.
So I really appreciateeverything that you're doing and
for all our listeners.
Please make sure that youfollow these fine gentlemen on
LinkedIn.
I promise you they always dosome great posts.
But please make sure that youcheck out EduAid also as well,
and of course, those links willbe there in the show notes.
But before we wrap up, I know wealways end the show with these

(01:10:39):
last couple of questions andit's interesting to hear now
from our four-time guest.
I know every appearance he'shad a different answer.
Thomas H2, I don't know.
I'm always anxious to hear youranswers to these questions, so
we'll go ahead and start withThomas H first.
This first one.
As we know, every superhero hasa weakness, so Kryptonite was

(01:11:01):
Superman's weakness.
So I want to ask you right now,in the current state of AI or
it could be in education ingeneral, it could be either one
or both what would you say isyour current edu kryptonite?

Yeah, I would say just, you know the fact that
I'm still a teacher.
I just think that this one hitshome a little bit.
But just trusting in theteachers as professionals, I
think that that's somethingthat's been taken away from us
for a trend for a while, and Ithink I see that in the tech as
well been taken away from us fora trend for a while, and I
think I see that in the tech aswell coming through is we just
need to trust teachers in beingthe professionals and if you

(01:11:36):
take you know, if you take thejudgment of teachers away from
them, that is only going to hurteducation.
And if you take the decisionmaking away from the people that
know the students the best, Ithink that that's bad for
education.
So I would say that that's mykry kryptonite is Just keep
teachers with their power, and Ithink that's a good thing.

Excellent, good answer, thomas.

T what would your edu-kryptonite be?
Currently, You're muted.

I was trying to block out the storm.
Maybe kryptonite might be thewrong word, but it's the thing.
That's definitely a gap and I'mworking really hard to get a
sense of how we fill it, whichis, we have all these general
heuristics for how to doteaching well, space your
practice and accept yourproblems, these kinds of things.
How do you translate that intoprecise kind of adaptive systems

(01:12:26):
that you can put out in frontof teachers?
So it's like I'm going to soundlike a broken record here.
Retrieval practice,interleaving, spacing how do you
get those to interactdynamically and not just
independently?
I'm also just mimicking CarlHendrick.
You should go subscribe to hissubstack.
The Learning Dispatch Him.
Exploring the science oflearning is a constant source of

(01:12:47):
inspiration on our side.
But yeah, how do you translatethat?
The problem that we started offtrying to solve?

is the problem that we're still wrestling with?
Excellent, all right, greatanswer.
Now I'm going to start with you, thomas t.
What if you could have abillboard with anything on it?
What would it be and why?

um, I've had other answers that were a little
pedantic, so let's go withsomething a little more fun.
Um, hmm, maybe I'll just gowith the quote I pulled for that
sub stack I put out, which isuh, a picture held us captive
and we could not get outside ofit for it lay in language and
language seemed to repeat it tous inexorably.

(01:13:27):
I think that's a powerfulreminder.

All right, excellent, good.
Quote.
I love it to us inexorably.

I think that's a powerful reminder All right,
excellent, good quote I love itAll right, thomas H, still
pedantic, less fun.
Sorry, couldn't think of a funthing off the top of my head.

Hey, it works, though it works, Thomas H.
What would your billboard?

say Join Edu8 Educators on Facebook.

We're giving away $ hundred dollars every friday
for the summer.
That's what it is.
There you go.
Hey, that's it.
Hey, that's a great billboardtoo.
Sign me up for that too as wellevery time.

Go ahead for real that join.
Uh, we're giving away a hundreddollars to every to a teacher
every friday for all summer.
So that's kind of how we liketo give back is just um,
literally just give back toteachers.

Excellent, no and it has been a thriving community
there on Facebook.
So please make sure that youjoin that Facebook group and I
will make sure and give you allthe links, all right, listeners,
so you can make sure that youconnect, join the Facebook group
and all that great stuff, allright?
Last question All right, sowe'll start with Thomas H.
Thomas H, if you could tradeplaces with a single person for
a day, who would that be and why?

(01:14:26):
Wow, with a single person for aday, who would that be and why?

Wow, if I could trade places with a single
person for a day, I probablywould trade places with
Cristiano Ronaldo, maybe, justso I would know what it would be
like to be great at soccer.
I think I spent like the firsthalf of my life trying to be

(01:14:50):
great at uh.
You know, there's a lot of timeinvested in that.

I think I'd be cristiano ronaldo for a day
excellent, all right, and thomast, who would you trade places
with for a day?

really like any kid.
I think it'd be fun to be a kidagain, just to experience
wonder and curiosity when theworld's new, I mean.
That's why I like I rememberwhen, like you, were a kid again
, just to experience wonder andcuriosity when the world's new,
I mean.
That's why I like I rememberwhen, like you, were a kid, in
the summer days used to feel solong.
Like days don't feel longanymore because we're not
building any new experiences,like we were always learning and
everything was new and exciting.
So like days seem to drag onbecause I'm full of new

(01:15:23):
experiences, lost that I meanI'm still curious and I still
have wonder about the world, butI think that was even more so
as a kid, so I'd be any kid fora day.
Just recapture that perspectivethere you go.

I love that and you're right.
I think like routine hasdefinitely made the days a lot
shorter.

Yeah that's for sure.

well, gentlemen, thank you so much as always for
your support, thank you so muchfor being great guests, thank
you so much for the work thatyou're doing and just continue
doing what you're doing, guys,because, sincerely, you guys are
, are definitely making a change, well, actually making a
difference in a lot of educatorslives and in their practice too
as well.
And again, also, just really, Ilove the fact that you stay

(01:16:01):
true to your pedagogy first tech, second approach, and not the
other way around, as you know.
That can definitely, you know,make a big difference.
So can I say the same thingabout you?
Not the other way around, asyou know, that can definitely,
you know, make a big difference.

So thank you.
Can I say the same thing aboutyou?
I mean, we really appreciateyou being the objective voice in
the space.
I don't see anybody else doingthe work that you're doing and
you know, bringing it toteachers directly from Founders
Mouse or from anybody else.
I think that anytime that youcan get out the you know, cut
through the BS of of the EdTechmarketing scheme, I think that

(01:16:31):
you do a great job of this andyou know we just really
appreciate knowing you and beingaffiliated with you in any way.

Thank you, thank you, guys.
I really appreciate thatfeedback.
That goes a long way.
It definitely fills my bucket.
As a podcaster, I reallyappreciate that, and also just
as an educator too.
So I really appreciate thosewords, guys, and thank you so
much for the encouragement.
And again, my hat's off to youfor all the work that you guys
are doing and for all ourlisteners.
Please make sure that youconnect with Thomas Thompson,

(01:16:57):
thomas Hummel All those linkswill be in the show notes, the
Facebook group links also too aswell.
That way you can join thatwonderful community and just to
continue to learn from ThomasThompson and Thomas Hummel,
because they will reply to yourmessages.
I mean talk about a place whereyou have founders that will
listen and go ahead and shareand do great things.

(01:17:20):
This is a great community.
So I definitely encourage youto join them.
And again, please make sure youvisit our website at
myedtechlife where you can checkout this amazing episode and
the other 328 episodes that Ipromise you you will gain a lot
of knowledge nuggets from thatyou can sprinkle onto what you
are already doing great.
And please make sure that youlook for all the Edu8 episodes

(01:17:43):
too, because you will findThomas Thompson and Thomas H
there also, as well as, like Imentioned to you, thomas t,
fourth four-time guest firstever.
So congrats on that.
And of course, thomas h hasjoined this very special group
too of a three-time guest, sothank you all for that and we
got a solo episode fawn so I cancatch up there you go.

(01:18:05):
Well, hey, we'll throw that into.
That way we can catch you up.
Yeah, that's not a bad idea.
So thank you all.
As for all your support.
Like I mentioned in thebeginning, we do what we do for
you to continue to bring yousome amazing conversations.
And thank you again to our showsponsors.
Thank you so much to BookCreator, eduaid and Yellowdig we
really appreciate it and, ofcourse, my friends.

(01:18:26):
Until next time, don't forget,stay techie.
Thank you.

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