Episode 330: Tisha Poncio & Rick Butterworth

Digital Portfolios, Feedback Culture, and Rethinking Readiness with Tisha Poncio and Rick Butterworth

In Episode 330 of My EdTech Life, I sit down with Tisha Poncio and Rick Butterworth, authors of Today’s Learners, Tomorrow’s Leaders. This conversation is all about transforming classrooms by prioritizing neurodiversity, digital portfolios, and building real-world readiness through entrepreneurial thinking.

We dig into what it really means to shift from compliance-based learning to authentic student voice, how educators can reframe feedback, and why every learner deserves space to reflect, create, and grow.

Timestamps:

00:00 – Welcome and intros
 03:10 – Tisha and Rick’s origin story
 06:35 – The real message behind Today’s Learners, Tomorrow’s Leaders
10:45 – What digital portfolios can unlock in the classroom
14:20 – Why feedback culture needs to change
19:00 – Classroom examples of student voice in action
25:10 – Rick’s take on workplace readiness and how schools miss the mark
29:40 – Branding, identity, and giving students ownership
35:15 – Practical steps to empower neurodivergent learners
42:50 – Why educators should embrace their inner entrepreneur
50:00 – The question: “What’s your EduKryptonite?”
58:00 – Closing thoughts and reflection

🛠️ Learn more about Today’s Learners, Tomorrow’s Leaders: Inspire Your Students to Succeed in School and Beyond. 

🙏 Big thanks to our sponsors for supporting meaningful conversations in education:
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Episode Transcript

Fonz Mendoza (00:30):
Hello everybody and welcome to another great
episode of my EdTech Life.
Thank you so much for joiningme on this wonderful day and,
wherever it is that you'rejoining us from around the world
, thank you, as always, for allof your support.
As you know, we do what we dofor you to bring you some
amazing conversations withamazing educators.
And today I am so excited towelcome two of my favorite

(00:52):
people.
I had the opportunity recentlyto be on their podcast and now
they get to be on my podcast.
I get to drill them withquestions now.
But I am so excited to welcometo the show today a great great
friend, tisha Poncio, and a newwonderful great friend that I've
had the pleasure of speakingwith, and just you.

(01:14):
We're going to be talking abouta wonderful project that both of
you got together to do.
That you know.
I know when you work in silence, it's things that you're doing,
some great things, and all of asudden I kind of see you guys

(01:37):
kind of drop off a little bitand then all of a sudden it's
like bam today's learners,tomorrow's leaders is here and
I'm excited to get thatconversation going so all our
audience members can know aboutthe amazing work you did through
this book.
So let's go ahead and dive in,but before we get into it,
really, really into our in-depthconversation, actually for our

(02:00):
audience members that arelistening to this episode and
may not be familiar with yourwork just yet, I'm going to ask
each of you to give us a littlebrief introduction and what your
context is within the educationspace.
So we'll start off with you,tisha.
Give us a little brief introand what your context is in the
ed space.

Tisha Poncio (02:20):
So I was a teacher for over 20 years.
I started teaching, actuallywhen I was 18.
And so I've always been ateacher, no matter what I'm
doing.
I taught in a public school inTexas for the entirety of my
career and then, because of mystudents and a project that we

(02:40):
were working on in my classroom,it led me to a tool called
Wakelet, and that tool Wakeletreally transformed and redefined
my entire thought process.
In my classroom, with mystudents, my students began
leading, and then I startedworking with the Wakelet team
and officially started workingwith them in 2021.

(03:02):
And I was.
I had all sorts of titles, but,as you know, titles really
don't mean anything becauseyou're still passionately doing
what you believe in.
So I was working with educatorsand students globally.
That actually then led me tomeet Smart and Lumio.
So I am now at the Smart andLumio team as a lead of

(03:24):
education and community, but atthe heart of all of that, it's
all about empowering studentsand teachers and really just
empowering people.

Fonz Mendoza (03:33):
Excellent, and I can definitely attest to that,
tisha, because the last time youwere on the show, I mean,
that's really what we talkedabout and you can definitely
hear the passion and obviouslyabout the work that you're doing
and how you really worked withempowering your students and now
you get the opportunity toempower educators too.
All the while that tricklesdown, still, to empowering

(03:55):
students so awesome.
Now, rick, on to you.
I would love to hear your youknow little brief intro and then
, of course, your context.
I know your road is a littledifferent, but not quite still a
lot of similarities, but I'mjust really excited to for our
audience members to get to knowyou a little bit more too.
Yeah, thanks.

Rick Butterworth (04:13):
Fonz.
So, yeah, I was one of thefounding members of Wakelet,
where Tish joined us later on.
So I started that back in 2011as a designer front-end
developer and over the years,really, as as Tish says I've had
numerous roles at the company.

(04:34):
I've done day-to-day operations, product management, I've
joined a couple of webinars withTish from the marketing side,
but my core focus has alwaysbeen around product developing,
the product enhancing the userexperience for, for educators
around the world, and then aboutwho would be two, three months

(04:54):
ago.
Now, end of april, um, Istepped down from that uh
position and focused more on ourbook and, obviously, our
podcast, as, as you mentioned,fonz, and, yeah, just trying to
empower as many educatorsworldwide, excellent.

Fonz Mendoza (05:11):
Well, I'm really excited because I know that in
the short span that you have putthe book out, I know it has
received definitely a lot ofattention.
I know that you, especially atISTE recently, you know you
definitely had a lot ofpresentations there.
The book is out and I'm justreally excited to dig in deep
because, as you know, like everyidea has an origin story.

(05:35):
So I would definitely love toget started with the origin
story of this book.
So, rick, I'm going to go aheadand start off with you and then
that way you can give us alittle you know idea of how you
and Tish got together and saidhey, you know what, let's put
our ideas together and let'smake this wonderful product,

(05:56):
this wonderful book for oureducators, out there.

Rick Butterworth (05:59):
Yeah, so I mean, tish has the longer
version of this story becauseshe was the one that really had
it initially, but I won't spoilthe fun from her side because it
was definitely a journey.
But really, we both went toISTE 2023.
It was my first time going toISTE.
It was my second conference I'dbeen to.

(06:20):
I'd been to and Tish hadmentioned that ISTE had
approached her about a book andwanted me to to come along to
say see what was actually goingon with it, and we went down.
I think we went for breakfast,um, with our editor and, yeah,
they were passionate about thethings that Tish has done,

(06:40):
because her background isincredible, her experiences and
what she brings to the table isamazing, and we realized that
with her experience as aneducator and with my
entrepreneurial skills, werealized that's where the book
really came to become a reality.
Really.
And for myself, I'm dyslexic.

(07:04):
Tisha's also alsoneurodivergent.
I will also let her go into allthat.
I won't spoil that, uh.
But we realize that we have acommon ground, uh, some similar
visions, similar passions, andwe wanted to create something
that isn't tool focused.
There's more around the process.

(07:25):
That's more about the educatorsin the classroom.
What can they do right now andthat's what we wanted to really
lead with within the book itselfand from there it was literally
just one after the otherdifferent ideas that were coming
to fruition.
We'd already got loads ofdifferent visions of how the

(07:47):
book can be presented, but itreally started to mold itself as
we progressed through it andhaving things like digital
portfolios, which is massive forWakelet and Tish's.
I will say it, she is like thecentral point of digital
portfolios.
She is shaking her head and Iknow why, but I will say it.
She is like the central pointof digital portfolio.
She is shaking her head and Iknow why, but I will say it.

(08:08):
And there was a lot of thingsthat we both learned in
ourselves with regards tofeedback and reflection, student
success and the challenges thatboth of us had had even when we
were at school as students thatwe had to face.
And for me, one of the biggestthings that I learned from TCA
was, I thought, being dyslexic.

(08:29):
I thought I was the only one, Ithought I was the person that
was always falling behind,didn't understand the things in
the same way to my peers, but Irealized massively at that point
that I'm not the only one.
There are so many people outthere that are essentially
falling behind because theydon't understand what is

(08:52):
actually the challenges for themand what their actual strengths
are.
So that's what we tried toreally hone in on to ensure that
every student, they are aleader, they can be successful
and they can go on from theclassroom and beyond into into
their working life.
So I love really the passionbehind the book.

Fonz Mendoza (09:10):
I love it.
I love it, and there's so manythings that I can see how, what
you bring, and definitely whatTisha has brings with her years
of experience, I mean it justmakes sense now.
I mean just getting to hearjust this backstory.
So, t Tish, I want to come toyou too, you know.
Obviously I want to hear youknow where this idea came from
because, again, knowing howpassionate you are and how vocal

(09:34):
you are about education and notand I say that in a very
respectful manner because wedefinitely appreciate it I know
I have been a longtime followerof your work, so tell me again
just how this idea came about.
I know Rick gave us a littlebit on his side, but now how
these two worlds married to comeup with this wonderful book.

Tisha Poncio (09:58):
I don't know, alfonso Fonz, I don't know if
you're ready for my answer here,like you guys are, like Fonz, I
don't know if you're ready formy answer here.
Like you guys are like, justchill, and I'm like, I'm like a
horse, a horse ready to like goout of the gate.
Here's the thing.
First of all, I want I, for thefirst time ever, I'm going to
address something and, as youguys were talking, it just kept

(10:19):
coming back up multiple times,back up multiple times.
I have been asked, rick hasbeen asked what does Rick bring
to this book?
Because he's not an educator,and I'm just going to say, first
of all I want to address that,because that's kind of how this
book came about I had thefoundation, I had the knowledge,

(10:39):
I was an educator in theclassroom, I was creating the
classroom that operated like abusiness, but I was not a
business owner and I was not anentrepreneur in the sense that
everybody sees an entrepreneur.
I didn't have all of thoseskills.
If you had thrown me into a CEOmeeting with someone and told
me to do, you know, an executivesummary, I would have had no

(11:01):
idea what you're talking about.
I didn't know the back end ofthat, and so I get really
passionate about this, becausewe have been asked by multiple
people that we have admired whatdo you guys bring to the table?
Like you know, we know Tishaknows this, but what do you know
?
Here's the thing I am so tiredof people being divisive in any

(11:23):
capacity, right, of people beingdivisive in any capacity, right
.
So what I want to say to that,and my challenge to the
listeners, is, instead oflooking at things in that way,
like I'm the expert of thisthing and you aren't, so what
could we possibly do together?
Like I really think we need tostart looking at all of our
roles, our skills, ourexperiences and how do we, as

(11:45):
you say, marry them together tocreate something bigger.
And I think that's really whereRick and I look at things
completely differently thaneveryone else.
We are neurodivergent.
Now, I didn't know that when Iwas teaching, I didn't know that
when I was working at Wakeletin the beginning, but as I
started understandingneurodivergency and how our

(12:08):
brains think, it made completesense why Rick and I were
aligned on, you know, our schoolexperiences, on even our work
experiences, on the passion thatwe had for students, those
students that haven't figuredout how to play the game because
their brains don't think likethe game.
I think that is where ourpassion comes in.
It's all about pushing back.

(12:30):
This entire book is aboutpushing back on the old systems
that have been in place that donot serve all the people.
That's essentially what thebook is about, and it is going
to challenge you, if you'rereading it, as a student, a
leader, a teacher, aninstructional coach.
It is going to challenge you.
I had someone actually tell methe other day because they've

(12:52):
been reading it.
You know, tisha, there's notlike.
There isn't a ton of like.
Oh my god, I never knew thatthings in this book.
We really have just pulled ittogether and said you know all
of these things, you are awareof them.
How are you putting themtogether for a powerhouse for
your students to launch theminto the world?
That is a reality right now andso that's really it.

(13:14):
We're just bringing everybodyback to the foundations.
I mean, we're not trying toclaim that we know every ed tech
tool that there is and how toimplement it into your
particular classroom.
What we are saying is you, asan educator, you are an
entrepreneur.
I know that now I've learnedthose skills.
We have written this book foreducators so that they can model

(13:36):
for their students how tobecome entrepreneurs and leaders
, and it has to start with theeducators.
So this book is, they told me,so funny.
I was like I want it foreveryone, and they were like no,
just for a specific group.
And I was like, okay, but it'sfor everybody.
And they were like no.
So it is labeled high schooland middle school teachers.

(13:58):
That is the audience.
But I will tell you it doesn'tmatter who picks up the book.
There is going to be, on anyparticular page, something for
you to take away, whether youare in middle school or
elementary school, whetheryou're a PE teacher with a group
of PE students.
It really should work foranybody.
And so I'm very passionateabout this because, as we were

(14:20):
writing it, I told Rick, I saidthis entire idea pushes back on
education today and yesterdayand a hundred years ago, right.
So that's where it really cametogether the passion for us to
kind of change how people weredoing things in the classroom
Excellent.

Fonz Mendoza (14:39):
Now I want to add to that because I know, like you
said, you know, a lot of peoplemay think those things
initially.
You know like, hey, you know alot of people may think those
things initially.
You know, like, hey, you're theeducator.
And then, of course, like youmade the comment, what does Rick
add to it?
And I am one of those that Iwill stand by you and saying
like, hey, I never wanted to bean educator, I came in from

(14:59):
business, I came in with amarketing degree into education.
I fell into education, fell inlove with education, and so I
see things very different butvery similar to the way that you
see it, where I am always kindof customer service oriented.
So my students that's who Icare about the most, knowing
that not every single one ofthem is going to buy the subject

(15:21):
matter in the exact same way, Ineed to sell it to them
differently, and so I can seethat entrepreneur spirit in me
coming into the classroom andapplying that into teaching and
then, of course, teaching thatto the students as well.
I think it's magical and Ithink that there are quite a few
.
Maybe there is a larger group,but I always see that it's

(15:44):
usually kind of just a smallgroup of us that may see things
in a very different light, andsometimes it it bothers people
that we see things differentlybecause I'm like, well, I'm an
outside the box thinker.
I'm like you said you, like yousaid you're you're that horse
that's ready to take off.
I'm like that corvette thatthey keep in the garage and

(16:05):
every once in a while they'lllet me go ahead and do you know
some some cool tricks, but thenthey put me back into the garage
because they don't like, youknow, to be uncomfortable.
And then, going back to yourbook, I really do agree with you
and say that this is for all,all grade levels, not just
middle school and high school,because even as an elementary

(16:26):
teacher, when I was doing sixthgrade and I was doing fifth
grade, we would have projects wewould do.
You know, students would givepresentations, they would have
to prove their case, andempowering students and giving
them voice is something that'sso important, which I want to
talk to next.
So this was a nice segue intothe classroom reality.

(16:46):
One thing that you talked aboutis all of the tech tools.
This is not a heavy tech book.
It's more about good practiceand reminding teachers hey, you
know what you are already doingthis, now let's take it up a
notch.
And then, you know, just kindof start putting things together
to have that discourse in class, that discussion amplifying

(17:08):
student voice.
And you know, going into theportfolios, giving them their,
you know looking at the thoughtprocess, you know, and, of
course, how they work towardsthat finished product.
So I want to ask you you know,let's talk a little bit about
that.
You know enhancing the studentlearning through.
You know entrepreneurial skills.
All right, so we'll start withyou, tisha.

(17:29):
What are some ways that youdescribe in your book?
And you know, let our teachersknow how these two worlds can
work together in a classroom.

Tisha Poncio (17:39):
Well.
So I think that you know Ispoke about.
I didn't really know if you hadput me in a corporate
environment or startupenvironment.
I wouldn't know the things.
I did know the things, I justdidn't know what.
They were called Right, and sothe entire class that I created
with my students.
I essentially had to puttogether this quote unquote

(18:00):
pitch deck because I had toprove the validity of this class
.
I had to prove that it matchedCTE.
As I was proving this point tomy administrators, it also made
me thoughtfully think throughwhat do I want my students to
leave my classroom with?
Well, I knew I wanted them tohave certain certifications and

(18:20):
skills, so I kind of wentbackwards.
You know, it doesn't matter ifit's Google certified trainer
things that I was teaching them,or you know it doesn't matter
if it's Google certified trainerthings that I was teaching them
, or you know, google level oneand level two.
It was more about the skill.
It was more about the processof how they got from, you know,
not being certified to how theywere being certified.
Then I started looking at okay,well, what do I want them to

(18:41):
learn about working with people?
So then I started thinkingabout now I need a little
customer service area, and so Ijust started building it kind of
backwards, if you will, whichis what we talk about in the
book.
It's design thinking, it'sbackwards thinking and I think
for the three of us and manypeople who are listening who are
neurodivergent, we do think inthat way.

(19:03):
We see the big picture firstand then we sort of break it
down for everyone else.
We see patterns that everybodyelse may not see, and so I
started really working on itthat way and it was slow, it was
not perfect, it didn't.
It wasn't this book right outof the gate, right this.
I started that class in 2017.
And so when I went to Wakelet,that was in 2021.

(19:27):
So I had years to sort of refinewhat I was doing, and one of
the things that I will tell youis I started getting student
feedback.
That's something I started whenI was a new teacher, and I very
vividly remember sending out asurvey it wasn't electronic, yet
, like it was actually on paperto my students, and someone

(19:49):
walked by my classroom and saidwhat are you doing?
And I said well, I'm justasking my students feedback on
the lesson so that I can makethe lesson better for this and
that was.
I was a brand new teacher andyou already know how that hit.
They were like why would you dothat?
It's like, why would I not dothat?
So I had been doing thatalready, but then in that

(20:11):
classroom, because of how Istructured it, we didn't have
regular desks.
The truth of the matter is,fonz, they put me in a closet
with my students, so I had tomake a classroom out of the
closet, which I made into anoffice, because that's just how
I think.
Then we got into the classroom,the students are in the
classroom, they're doing thethings I have outlined and it

(20:31):
really begins to operate as abusiness they are having to talk
to each other about.
Is this graphic ready to go outon the big billboard for the
entire school?
You know have.
Did I spell everythingcorrectly?
Are the colors right?
Can you see it?
It was little things in thebeginning.
Then they were doing theirportfolios and they were

(20:52):
reflecting and decision making,and I think for me, that's
really where the shift happened.
I was giving them time to thinkImagine that as a teacher and
then I was giving them time tomake decisions, and that is
really where the shift happens,and I think in school even for
me in the beginning I was notgiving them decision making time

(21:15):
, so we didn't put tech tools inthe book, because you're going
to go to a job and you don'tknow what tech tools they're
going to be using.
I'll give you an exhibit A Fonz, are you ready?

Fonz Mendoza (21:25):
I'm ready.

Tisha Poncio (21:25):
When I went to SMART.
I went in as a Google certifiedtrainer who had been using
Google forever, except for theearly days when I was teaching
Microsoft Office to adulttrainers.
But I go into SMART and I'mlike, oh, we're using Google and
we're using Microsoft.
Oh my God, Like I sort of had amental meltdown because I

(21:47):
thought I'm going to use both ofthese ecosystems at the same
time and I knew that for me, thecode shifting, the shifting and
going back and forth fromplatforms.
But because I had built upresiliency with other platforms,
I was able to get in there andgo okay, this makes sense, I can
find a workflow.
That's really what it's about.
Doesn't matter if you're usingBook Creator, Love Book Creator.

(22:09):
Doesn't matter if you used Flipbefore, loved Flip.
Whatever you're using, the goalisn't really about the tool,
it's about the skill.
It's about learning theversatility.
It's about getting in there andbeing able to see how do they
work together.
How can they help me do thething I need to go do?
Doesn't matter what the name ofit is right.
So that's kind of how myclassroom started.

(22:30):
And then I started realizing,oh my God, these skills are so
transferable to what they wantto do outside of this classroom,
so it really was an aha momentfor me.

Fonz Mendoza (22:41):
I love it Now going back going into that All
right, rick, here we go.
Moment.
For me, I love it Now goingback going into that.
All right, rick, here we go.
That and this this just came tomind.
Like you were saying, you'reprepping them there in in in
school, and one thing that Iloved is everything that you
added in a class, which can bedone, you know, but oftentimes
it's teachers.
They feel the pressure of thecurriculum and so on.
I it was funny, like I wouldalways bundle lessons.

(23:02):
I say you know what, I'm goingto take my time.
This goes with this, this goeshere.
But I'm going to take my timeand make this a long drawn-out
project and give them that timeto process, and that's one thing
I want to hit on is that thereis not enough processing time
given to students in a regularday-to-day.
I mean, what happens is you'rea teacher, center stage, the

(23:25):
first two rows raise their handsand you think, just because the
first two rows know and raisetheir hands, what about the last
two rows?
What about those students?
What are we doing for them?
Are we giving them enoughprocessing time?
And usually it's like, nope, wegot to go, go, go.
And the teacher just kind ofgauges their lesson by the first
you know two rows.
And so I love the idea ofgiving that feedback and say,

(23:46):
hey, students, what could I dobetter?
And that could be very scary.
But now going to thosetransferable skills, like you
mentioned, rick, you coming inwith that entrepreneurial
background into the businesssense and so on.
Going along with what Tish said, how important are those skills
, from high school, elementaryhigh school, to your current

(24:09):
setting or where you lived inthe entrepreneurial space,
business space, what are someimportant things that you can
highlight that Tish mentionedand so we can highlight to our
teachers and say hey, these arethe skills that they really need
.
It's not just focused on oneplatform, but on problem solving
.

Rick Butterworth (24:26):
Yep, well, I'll give you a study that we
actually presented on Artistithis year and it was found that
there was a thousand, almost athousand, hiring managers from
different companies that wereasked about recently graduated
students and they found that 60%of them have fired at least one

(24:49):
graduate that they'd recentlyhired within less than six
months and that was last year.
And they listed out the top 10reasons and they were like lack
of professionalism, which Ialways look at and think well,
you've got someone comingstraight from either university
or straight out of school goinginto the workplace.
What do you expect?

(25:09):
But the ones that reallyshocked me were difficulty
actually receiving feedback,poor organizational skills,
unable to time manage theiractual workload, unable to adapt
into this kind of professionalway of working, and it got us
really thinking about that one,especially because students are

(25:31):
coming out from a verystructured format.
This the way that the classroomis, and stuff me.
Me and tish did the research infor the book.
This goes back over a hundredyears.
This was Perusian model, whichwas introduced from Europe, and
its students are in rows andcolumns, teachers at the front,

(25:54):
and the design of it which wastaken.
It was in Germany that it wasoriginally formed and the design
of it was the best.
Students will either becomeengineers, doctors, high quality
careers.
The rest of them will go to thearmy.
Well, that's not the real worldnow, but we're still keeping
with that kind of methodologyand because of these ways of

(26:18):
working, like you were justsaying that I think teachers are
so stuck to this.
We've got a one hour lesson.
What do we need to get done inthat one hour?
Rather than thinking well, wehave seven weeks right now,
there's seven hours that we canactually progress on, diff on a
single project, and actuallycome back to over and over to

(26:41):
basically distill in them thatit's not just a one project,
you're done, start the next one,start the next one, which is
the mentality that I definitelyhad in school I know Tish also
did, because we've talked aboutit that you do a project, you
get your grade, you move on.
There's no, no kind of feedback.
There's no way of going backand looking right, what can I do

(27:02):
better to actually improve?
It's just no, you've done that.
Tick a box, move on to the nextimagine if you had done that
with wakelet yeah, I mean,that's again.
That same mentality was broughtinto into wakelet and I think
you've, we've seen it everycompany that it's always this,
the next thing, the next thing,the next thing.

(27:22):
We have that mentality inschool so we end up bringing
that into the actual workplacewhen really, especially as a
designer, user experience.
That is the wrong way to go.
You have to look at, and thebiggest one is feedback and
actually being able to reflecton that, because I can create a
feature on any platform, if Idon't go and see how people are

(27:43):
using it, what actually works,what doesn't work, I'm not
actually going to improve theproduct.
I might be able to move theneedle ever so slightly if it
works out correctly, but that'snot always the case.
But if I'm not looking back onthings, I'm never improving the
product as I'm moving forward.
So for me, the one thing Ialways I learned very early on,

(28:07):
and it was in design technologyduring um, I was in year 12,
which I think is yeah, I don'tknow, I think the years work
differently with uk and us butum, basically we were doing
graphic design, wood, woodwork,electronics, all that into one
class and the teacher said youcannot get 100% in the exam.

(28:34):
Just to let you know.
You will never get 100% becausethe mindset is whatever you can
create, you can do better.
Nothing is perfect.
You can always improve, andthose lessons also required me
to design stuff and go back andlook at them and say what, what
works, what doesn't work, whatcan I do better.
And you evolve this idea inyour head to an end product.

(28:54):
But it's a process of workingtowards it and then going on to
then build it, and I think youneed that mentality in any
single subject.
You do that.
You're actually looking at whatcan we do better, what can we,
even if it's like a seven weekproject.
First week you've got say Idon't know, coming up with an

(29:17):
idea and putting some things onpaper.
And then the second, uh weekright, let's take it further.
But the teacher can come in andsay, right, let's actually look
at what you've done, whereyou're up to, let's try and give
some feedback and some ideas.
And it doesn't have to just bethe teacher.
You can also look at gettingpeer-to-peer reviewing.
There's multiple different waysthat we talk about in the book

(29:39):
of how to do feedback.

Tisha Poncio (29:40):
That's how the real world works right.
Exactly.
I don't just go to, I justdon't.
I don't go to my boss and saycan you review this?
If she did that for all of us,that's all she'd be doing right.
So it's about teaching thestudents that peer-to-peer
feedback.
That is something, bonds, thatwe didn't anticipate.
I think Rick did.

(30:01):
I think Rick, he has beentalking about it for a really
long time.
What is that?
Chapter eight, that's chaptereight.

Rick Butterworth (30:06):
I'm very, very passionate when it comes to
feedback and reflection, becauseit's not an area that I well,
again, it was the whole thing ofI don't know how to do it.
Therefore, I'm the only onethat knows how to do it, but the
one thing we did we did asession at ISTE on student
confidence, and feedback andreflection was the two key
points.
On student confidence, andfeedback and reflection was the

(30:27):
two key points, and wediscovered asking the audience
like have you ever been taughtfeedback and reflection?
Have you taught it as well inyour classroom?

Tisha Poncio (30:33):
and hardly anybody put their hands in.
One person raised their hand.
Out of probably 75 to 80 people, 80 people in this session did
not and and this girl came up ayoung teacher came up after and
said thank you so much.
Nobody is talking about this.
I have been sitting in mycareer for years thinking that I
was the only one that was nevertaught feedback and reflection.

(30:54):
So if you think about that,that is everybody again sitting
in their own stuff going.
I don't know this and everybodyelse does, because we're not
talking about it and we need tobe talking more.

Rick Butterworth (31:07):
Because it's the fear of being judged as well
, because we're thinking, if Idon't know this, am I going to
be judged on not knowing it,when really we should be looking
at it and going no, let's tryand help as many people out as
possible.
If someone's not 100% confidenton something, something, what
can we do to help them?
And that, again, that's allfeedback and reflection.
You learn from doing that.

(31:28):
But again, tish said to me it'slike the chicken and the egg
kind of thing of you need to getfeedback but you also need to
find someone that has theknowledge on feedback but they
don't know the feedback right.

Tisha Poncio (31:41):
How do you find you have to?
You have to surround yourselfwith people who can learn and
grow with you in that knowledge,or find a mentor who has has
really done that well or isseeking to continue to refine
that.
I think that's the difficultpart, right again, because we
assume everybody knows, so weassume if we're getting feedback

(32:02):
from someone, we'll just, I'lljust, I'll use me as an example.
I'm in a classroom, I'm getting, you know, evaluated.
It's my evaluation day.
My principal may writesomething on my evaluation form
that is very negative.
I'm going to take that personal.
I'm going to start saying hedoesn't know what he's talking

(32:23):
about because he doesn'tactually know what I do.
Y'all know we're saying that hedoesn't really know what I do.
He doesn't have the samecontent knowledge that I have.
Again, there's this, and so itjust creates this loop of
negativity where we're nevergetting out of that.
So how do we shift ourselves?

(32:48):
One of the things that Rick andI have said in the book we have
suggested and it was a greatbook for me to read.
Again, I didn't learn feedbackand reflection from anyone
except myself, but this book hasbeen really transformational
for me personally.
It's called the Four Agreements.
I won't bore you with all thefour agreements, but one of the
agreements in there is don'ttake anything personal.
And if you can start removingthat personal piece away from it
, you start taking in whatpeople are saying and then you

(33:11):
can start sorting through thepieces that are valuable to you
that you do need to work on andmaybe pushing aside those things
that they're saying that reallyaren't helpful.
Right, and you can do that andyou can start growing.
That is kind of where thatgrowth happens.
But it is difficult in theclassroom, fonz, I will tell you
.
It's difficult in workenvironments.
I know we all know this.

(33:31):
This is not new.
We're all adults.
It is difficult to do feedbackand reflection, even with
teachers.
I was an instructional coach fora long time.
I'm, you know.
I still give feedback andreflection to people and I
always kind of pause and wait tosee how they're going to
respond or react, because I wantto be prepared.

(33:52):
Are they going to hang up on meand we're not going to even
have a conversation call, or arewe going to go back and forth
and they're going to askquestions?
It is, it's a very hard thingto do as an adult.
If we can't do it, how do weteach it to students?
But it can be easier, right?
So we could tell you, fonz, okay, here are your two stars for

(34:13):
your podcast, my Antichrist Lifepodcast.
These are the two things welove.
Here's the one thing we thinkmaybe would help you grow your
audience or something, right, sobeing able to do that.
But then you have to also asknot everybody wants a compliment
sandwich.
Some people hate that andthey're going to be mad at you
for it, right?
So you just have to know whoyou're talking to, which then

(34:34):
prompts you to really beintentional about your
relationships.
Are they transactional only orare they transformational?
So I don't know.

Fonz Mendoza (34:42):
There's a lot to unpack here.
There really is, and I'm sorry,rick, but I just wanted to add,
before I forget, higher ed.

(35:02):
That could definitely makethings a lot better.
And especially, you know, withthat research study of CEOs and
all those things, being able totake, you know, criticism or
that feedback and things of thatsort, and being able to adapt,
being able to overcome thosethings.
I mean it's a skill, you know,and learning that process too as
well.
But the fact that we don't takethe time to allow for

(35:27):
peer-to-peer feedback or evenjust teacher feedback and just
giving the students, you know,just hey, this is what we can
work on.
There's so much stuff that,like Tish said, that we are
already doing in our classrooms,but we can bring it together
and make it a little bit moresystematic in the sense that

(35:48):
it's part of your class andmaybe even part of your vision
for your district, from year toyear, to build up that character
, build up students that cantake the feedback, can take
action on the feedback and canovercome and continue to grow.
But I think that's why maybethere's some of that feedback

(36:08):
that those CEOs said it's like,hey, you know what, they just
can't take the feedback andpeople just get-.

Tisha Poncio (36:14):
Can we give some examples?
Yes, yes, please.
I didn't tell Rick we weredoing this and he's probably
like Tisha, here you go again.

Rick Butterworth (36:21):
I mean, it's every single time.

Tisha Poncio (36:28):
So I'm used to it.
Now this is something that wedid go over our presentation and
I just want to hit on itbecause we're talking about
feedback over criticism.
We're talking about positivefeedback.
But I want to give thelisteners examples, and these
examples came from a realstudent.
This these examples do not comefrom my name explains we asked
a tell me negative feedback thatyou hear from a teacher.
That really does not help.

(36:48):
So here are some of thosephrases Quote what were you
thinking when you wrote this Endquote, quote.
Why did you do this End quote?
Fix this, you need to redo this.
So it's very like you notice inthose statements.

(37:09):
They're they're very like short, the direct and yeah, and
there's not a lot of likethinking that goes along with it
, or feedback.
So then I said OK, you know,now tell us what is positively
helpful, whether it is in an LMScomment or it's a verbal
feedback or however they'regiving it to you.
So here are some examples ofpositive pieces of feedback.

(37:34):
We need to work on this part abit more to help improve your
overall project.
Your grade is a bit belowpassing, but let's meet and work
together on how we can fix thisgrade.
Great job.
I think, to enhance thisfurther, let's improve on this
part.
So, whatever that is, and thenyou did great Work on this one

(37:55):
area and then it will be perfect.
So Rick and I talk a lot in thebook about changing your wording
for certain things and how yousay things to students.
Um, we all know that no one canbe perfect, and just because
someone gets 100 doesn't meanthat's perfect.
But a lot of students want tofeel like they are achieving

(38:15):
perfection and so even if wejust say it to them, you know,
just fix this one little bit andit's going to be perfect.
Like that's okay to tell themthat You're not telling them
that they're never making amistake.
But it's that one little piece.
And so I thought it wasinteresting.
The student gave us both ofthose pieces.
Those are real pieces offeedback from their real
teachers the last year, and so Ijust thought it would be

(38:39):
helpful for teachers to kind ofhear that, because sometimes we
get busy and we just say fixthis.
And we have to remember ourwords have power.

Fonz Mendoza (38:48):
Yes, I want to add to that.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Go ahead, rick, I'll let you go.

Rick Butterworth (38:52):
Yeah, no problem.
Yeah, I mean, Tish literallywent straight into what I was
going to go with anyway.
But no, this is why our dynamicworks so well, because we just
we know what each other'sessentially thinking without
even realizing it.
But just to add on to what Tishhas just said, even if a
teacher wants literally a very,very low hanging fruit we said

(39:14):
this in our presentation changebut to and Because there's been
many times, and Tish actuallyused two very good examples, and
because there's been many timesand tish tish actually used two
very good examples when you usesomething that is negative in a
way like she said, you're on,you're under performing or
you're just below average, butthat's a negative use the but to

(39:36):
cancel that out.
Let's try and look at how wecan improve it.
Where it's really beinghindered is when someone says
you're doing great but you'remissing out on these things.
Well, that positive you juststarted with the moment you use
but just destroyed it straightaway.
So if you change it to you'redoing great and to make it
better, let's look at improvingthese areas.

(39:59):
Using that one word changing butand has a massive impact on
someone's self-esteem and howthey're actually receiving it,
because the moment you destroyany form of positive, you're
fixating on the negative andthat's what the person's going
to do, because I know for myself, when I was receiving feedback,
I could get 99 amazing comments.

(40:19):
One negative comment sticks inmy mind every time and and I
dwell on that and I make it outto be bigger than the 99
positive.
But if I start to focus on thefeedback, that is positive more
so, and people have actuallyadapted that the way that
they're communicating it.
I'm going to pick up on thatand I'm actually going to make
changes based on the positivefeedback, which will have bigger

(40:41):
outcomes in the future.
I love it.

Fonz Mendoza (40:43):
Rick, I think you and I became best friends now
too with everything that yousaid, because I'm one of those
too Like you can give me 99things that are like going well,
but that one thing, it ruins me.
I'm done for the day Like.
I am just hyper fixated on thatbecause I feel like I did not
meet your standards and that'sit, Like I'm done and you just

(41:05):
shut down.

Tisha Poncio (41:07):
I think that that is really the conditioning of us
being in school in that wayalways trying to get the
approval of the teacher or ourparents, and I think you know we
are in an interestinggeneration here where we didn't
really get that.
But we can change the coursefor the future leaders, and
that's really what our wholebook and our whole stance is

(41:29):
about.
Let's let's change this.

Fonz Mendoza (41:31):
Yeah, I wanted to add a little bit to this great
piece of conversation because Ithink this is so important.
In my experience when I was inelementary, you know, obviously
we had parent teacher meetingsand, of course, you had the IEP
meetings, the 504s, where youmet with parents and you met
with admin.
One of the things that I lovedthat I found very useful in my
classroom and this is a segue towhat I want to go into We'll

(41:55):
talk about digital portfolios,but that's something that I
started doing back in 2016, 17.
It wasn't really a digitalportfolio.
It was just really like, hey,we're going to do everything
digitally, so there's evidenceof learning, so I already have
it in your Google Drive andeverything.
So I would go into these IEPmeetings 504 meetings.
You've got the parent, you'vegot the admin, you've got the
specialists and diagnosticiansand everything.

(42:16):
And then you've got teachersthat come in and they bring like
a pack, a packet of quizzes ortests.
Or you've got teachers thatjust come in with absolutely
nothing.
I would come in with a littleChromebook and then so now, all
of a sudden, it's like OK, sothis student you know, student X
is maybe not doing very well inthis class.

(42:37):
What can they do to improve?
So there's the teacher withnothing that comes in with
nothing, is just like, well,they just need to study more,
they just need to pass theirquizzes, but really no substance
.
As well, you know what.
This is what they're doing,very well, and but we need to do
some additional work on, youknow, this specific standard and
this, and that Then you've gotthe other teacher that comes in
with a packet of tests and showsthe work and says well, this is

(42:59):
the work that they're doing,this is what they have, so they
just need to study and do thisand redo this, and I'm like you
know.
And then.
So, okay, mr Mendoza, so what'sgoing on with the student in
your class?
Well, let me show you.
This is his Google Drive, ortheir Google Drive.
This is where they were at thebeginning of the year.
This is where they arecurrently.

(43:20):
So, as you can see, there was alittle bit of that improvement.
Then there was a slight dip,but now we're able to get them
up and, as you can see, thelanguage acquisition from
beginning of the year to thisspecific point is here, we're on
track, and so that evidence isthere, and so, for me.
I think that that's so important, even not just in the classroom
with the students, but teachers, with parents to be able to

(43:43):
give the right type of feedbackand not make an enemy of the
parent but get the parent onyour side and on your team by
showing that wonderful feedbackfrom the student and how you can
improve and work togethertowards that improvement.
So that definitely helped mebefore I learned more about the

(44:05):
wonderful world of digitalportfolios, but now that's a
nice segue into this because Iwant to talk about that you know
, the digital portfolios, and Iguess we'll talk a little bit
about personal branding, becausein that sense, I feel that in a
lot of the projects that weshould be giving our students,
we should give them that freedomobviously, show me the content,

(44:26):
show me in a specific way thatyou feel comfortable with in
showing me that content mastery,but also sprinkle on a little
bit about yourself and you andthat's your brand.
So let's talk a little bitabout that.
Tish, tell me about you knowdigital portfolios and personal
branding and why that'simportant.

Tisha Poncio (44:44):
Well, I first want to say that I think there are
some misconceptions when we saydigital portfolios.
This is something that I havecome across multiple times.
I would say that your GoogleDrive with your students is a
digital portfolio.
The digital portfolio really isanything digital that you are
constantly updating, right?

(45:04):
So that could be the GoogleDrive, it could be the LinkedIn,
it could actually your Facebookpage.
So, just FYI, whatever you'reputting out there is actually
your digital portfolio, personalor professional.
I think the thing aboutportfolios, though I was doing
portfolios forever.
I've been doing them forever.
I mean, I hate to be coined asthe portfolio girl, but I think

(45:26):
that's becoming very relevantthese days.
I went to a small privateuniversity.
Let me just caveat that I paidfor that all on my own, so I
just want you to know I was notin that privileged state.
I chose that university becauseI wanted to be a good teacher.
One of the things of thatprogram that I knew of and had
sort of scouted out already isthat they were doing portfolios

(45:49):
with their education student.
They were also having them gomultiple places to do student
teaching.
So oftentimes you'll just havestudent teaching at the very end
of your degree, right at thevery end before you get a job.
They were requiring us to do itmultiple times throughout our
coursework and then.
So we had a really, reallyrobust portfolio.

(46:09):
This is a true story.
I don't think I've ever toldthe story, but this is the
origination of the portfolio DNAinto Shabansio.
So when I graduated, myportfolio, I have it.
I'll have to post a picture ofit and send it to you.
So you have it.
It was pretty big.
It was one of those leatherbound portfolios with, you know,
the paper protectors, and I hadeverything in there really

(46:32):
neatly.
Well, here is why I knew itworks because I took that
portfolio and the very first jobthat I applied for as a teacher
, I got hired on the spot, andit was because of that portfolio
, because I was showing what Iknew, I was showing what I could
do, and it was just paper, sothat was fine.
So then I started doing that inmy classroom.

(46:53):
I thought, well, if it worksfor me to get the job, then I
should be doing this with mystudents.
So we would create portfolioson paper in my business
computers class and in myprogramming class, and I mean,
imagine how fun that was to lookthrough a portfolio of coding,
but I did and I wanted them tosee the value in it.
So, over the course of time,obviously, we entered the

(47:15):
digital age and I startedrealizing that all the social
media was becoming a portfolio,and then I thought I have to
figure out how to translate this.
So I just started evolving thatinto what I was doing.
So it could have been aportfolio on, you know, level
one, google certified educator,or it could have been a
portfolio on art or on case.

(47:36):
But that is really where myclassroom exploded Because, as
you said said, it was aboutgiving students the ability to
choose how they were, showing methat they had learned something
and giving them the opportunityto brand it with their own
personality.
Now, think about that.
That was not something that weall grew up with, right?

(47:57):
It wasn't like oh, rick, youwant to do coding and you want
to build a program to show whatyou've learned and funds, fonz,
you can do.
No, we didn't get those choices.
It was like here's yourworksheet, right?
So I think in doing that, mystudents started seeing what you
just explained, fonz, in thatmeeting.
They started seeing oh, Istarted here, and then I got

(48:19):
here and they started seeingtheir own growth.
So you know what that did.
That took all theresponsibility off of me,
essentially because they wereseeing it themselves.
And then they were shoutingabout it to each other and they
were like, look at this graphicI did in August, isn't that
horrible?
Look at my growth.
I could have done so muchbetter.
They started having thatconversation.

(48:41):
Then they started taking thoseportfolios and their resumes to
job application, like to job,you know, applying for jobs.
It wasn't a huge, it wasn't ajob at a big company, it was
like Sonic.
Okay, I just want to give youreference.
But they were going to Sonicwith their resume and their
little digital portfolio andtelling them to scan the QR code
.
Because, you know, sonic, he'snot got his laptop with him.

(49:02):
He's scan the QR code because,you know, at Sonic, he's not got
his laptop with him.
He's scanning the QR code onhis phone and he's looking at
this amazing thing, going, yes,you're hired right.
So they started seeing that thewhole goal of that digital
portfolio whether it is on yourFacebook or your LinkedIn or
it's for a classroom, is for youto really see and reflect on
the growth that you're makingright.

(49:24):
Is it actually moving yourneedle to where you want to go
in the future, or is it holdingyou back?
So I really got lost on thatquestion, bonds, but I was
really passionate about thatbecause I wanted people to
understand portfolios are.
It's such a myth and Rick cantell you.
So, rick, I'm going to let youtalk about this.
When we started writing thischapter, it was the hardest

(49:47):
chapter for me to write.

Fonz Mendoza (49:50):
Rick, what's for you now?
Going on digital portfolios,and I'm sure you know in your
line of work you definitely haveto create some kind of
portfolio or evidence of thework that you're doing and so
maybe going back to in writingthis book and reflecting on your
own personal journey you knowwhat do you see the benefits of
having a portfolio?

Rick Butterworth (50:12):
Yeah, I mean, for me it was.
I was very narrow minded withportfolios initially because I I
only ever saw them.
When it came to showcase yourdesign work or your art
portfolio.
It was always something thatyou had crafted yourself and you
were trying to get a job inthat area.
You needed to show what kind ofthings have you created in the

(50:34):
past.
But really, when it comes downto it, we can start off with a
CV, a one or two pieces paperwith I worked here, my
education's here, these are myinterests.
Or the one line at the verybottom which I find very
interesting is what am Iinterested in?
And it's the one part of aportfolio in a way that

(50:56):
showcases the individual as aperson.
It's essentially that is theirbrand on a cv, when really I
look at it and say, yeah, youcan have someone who is the best
of the best in that field.
But do they actually fit inwith the company culture?
Can they gel with the team?
Do they have the rightmentality that you're after for

(51:20):
that job role?
And a piece of paper doesn'treally tell you that.
But when you can start bringingin different formats of media
whether it's a video, an audiofile images, you start to see
the person, who the personactually is, rather than just a
name with some experience on apiece of paper.
And one analogy I always use isyou can have the best sports

(51:42):
team, whether that's soccer,american football, baseball, ice
hockey, whatever.
You could have all the bestplayers in the world because
you've got all the best, all themoney in the world and take on
everybody.
You still might not win theleague because that team might
not gel together.
And it's the same that I lookwith a cv or a digital portfolio
.
I'm going to look at the personfirst before I look at what

(52:05):
they've actually created,because the person themselves
could be motivated, driven,really passionate about what
they do.
Their work at the moment mightnot be the best because they
might be lacking experience, butthe great thing is that's an
opportunity for them to comeinto the company and be molded
in a way that we want you towork in this way, but also we

(52:26):
want to give you flexibility togrow and learn.
Because they've got thatpassion, they're more likely to
go out and do that actual extrawork that they wanted to do to
grow their career, whereassomebody else who has all the
experience might not be aswilling, but their idea of what
they want to do might fit betterto the job role that you have

(52:48):
at the time.
So when it comes to digitalportfolios, I always look at the
fact that you want to have someform of flexibility.
As Tish says, it can beanything A Google Drive,
facebook account, linkedin,instagram, pinterest, anything
like that, or just a piece ofpaper with a load of photos of
what you've done, with someachievements.
It can be anything, as long asyou're showing that personal

(53:12):
side and as long as companiesare also looking at that
personal side as well.

Tisha Poncio (53:17):
Don't you think that it's so?
We've talked about this before,fonz.
It's not a project.
I don't want anybody that islistening to think of okay, I'm
going to do my portfolio projectnow.
Please don't think that I'msaying it out loud.
We're recording it.
I want this to come back andhaunt you if you're doing that.
I'm never saying, okay, it'stime for us to do our portfolio.

(53:39):
It's not a project.
The portfolio is a process.
The do our portfolio, theproject.
It's not a project.
The portfolio is a process.
The portfolio is a mindset.
The portfolio is a way of life.
That is how I want you to thinkof it, and if you can think of
it in that way for yourselves,you can then start modeling that
for your students.
The portfolio isn't somethingthat you just pick up and put
down like you do your Christmasdecoration in December.

(54:00):
No, don't do that.

Fonz Mendoza (54:02):
I love that.

Tisha Poncio (54:03):
I just had to say that because I wanted people to
be very clear on what we'resaying in the book.

Rick Butterworth (54:08):
I completely agree.
Yeah, it is one of those thingsthat is an ongoing thing.
It's not a single use projectlike what we've talked about in
schools or even in work, thatyou do one thing, you move on to
the next, you move on to thenext.
You're always evolving it anddeveloping it to be better than
what it was.
And going back to the wholefeedback and reflection, a
digital portfolio is a greatplace to start because it gets

(54:32):
you starting on something thatis going to evolve, and the only
way to get it to evolve is bygetting that feedback and
reflection on the work thatyou're doing, so it's full
circle If you're listening,julie Parsons.
I was going to say Julie as well.

Tisha Poncio (54:46):
Portfolio.
I will say this when she was 14years old in my class and Julie
Parsons is now 24, 25, stillupdating that exact same
portfolio.

Fonz Mendoza (54:59):
I love it.
All right, guys.
So as we start wrapping up, youknow I want to ask you both
just to kind of close thissegment out, and of course,
we'll go to our last threequestions for each one of you.
But I want to ask you couldeach of you and I'll give you a
little bit of time reflect onone key change you'd most like
teachers to embrace from today'slearners and tomorrow's leaders

(55:21):
?
Like teachers to embrace fromtoday's learners and tomorrow's
leaders.
So I'll start with Rick what isone key change that you would
love for teachers to embrace, tokind of say, hey, this is where
I would love for you to just beopen-minded and maybe, you know
, take a step in this directionor try this out.

Rick Butterworth (55:40):
I mean, I'm very passionate about changing
one thing.
I mean the, the and but is sucha low-hanging fruit.
But if I was to look atsomething different then I might
be stealing tisha's idea here.
But uh, focus on theneurodivergent.
If you accommodate toneurodivergent students, they

(56:00):
accommodate to 20 20% of theclassroom.
Being dyslexic as well, weaccommodate to 15% of the
classroom on average.
If you accommodate to them, youaccommodate to every single
student.
So it could be, rather thanjust writing everything out,
maybe it's audio recording.
I know Tish's said before thatif she's giving feedback, if she

(56:24):
could just speak it and recordit and send it to a student
rather than writing it out everysingle time, it would be
quicker for her.
And that's the thing that ateacher may be different on how
she or he best works.
If you can accommodate to aneurodivergent student, you have
a higher chance to accommodateto the entire class, not just
the 80% that aren'tneurodivergent student.
You have a higher chance toaccommodate to the entire class,
not just the 80% that aren'tneurodivergent love it Tish.

(56:48):
Can I tag on to that?

Fonz Mendoza (56:49):
yes of course.

Tisha Poncio (56:53):
I just want to say , yes, rick did steal one of my
tips, but I what I want to sayto that is one of the other
things we ask teachers at ISTEin our session is how many of
you were taught how to teach toneurodivergent learners Like, do
you feel confident in that?
And again, nobody raised theirhand.
So I want to say to that, ifyou are teaching to those 20%,

(57:17):
there are tons of resources outthere for you on how to teach to
the neurodivergent learners,and I'll send Fawn some links
that he can put in the shownotes, because you aren't alone
if you don't know how to do that.
What we are saying is for thatprocessing time, like we have

(57:38):
been talking.
That would be one of the things.
Your neurodivergent learnersare going to need extra
processing time.
So that would be something thatyou can shift, or giving them
choice.
Just think about the three of ushere If a teacher gave us all
the same project, we would havecompletely different evidence of
learning, right?
So it's kind of like apply thatprocess, okay.
So repeat the question for me,fonz, because I really want to

(57:59):
answer this very thoughtfully.
Yeah, no worries.
So repeat the question for me,fonz, because I really want to
answer this very thoughtfully.

Fonz Mendoza (58:02):
Yeah, no worries.
So, reflecting on one keychange that you would love for
teachers to embrace from today'slearners and tomorrow's leaders
, what is your one thing, thatyou their main takeaway, I guess
?

Tisha Poncio (58:18):
Yeah, challenge you if you buy the book or if
you don't is for you to just sitand reflect on your teaching
career, because I know that youknow the one thing that you
could probably shift and that isthe thing that I want you to
focus on For me it was wow, I'mdoing rubrics, all wrong, right.

(58:42):
Like if you had asked me thatquestion in 2016, I would have
been like that's probably notthe best way to do that, and it
really didn't take anybodytelling me.
I just kind of internally knewso all of the teachers listening
, whether or not you buy thebook, I just want you to reflect
on your teaching practice.
There is that one thing thatyou know that is kind of nagging

(59:04):
at you to maybe reassess howcould you do it differently, and
don't be afraid to do thatdifferently.
So don't think that it is a hitto your expertise or your
knowledge.
It's not so you know that thatwould be my thing.
It could be anything.
That is a very small lift and Ithink for everybody it's

(59:24):
different.
I think if I ask you, fonz,that question, you probably have
a thing that you're thinkingright now like oh, I could
probably do that one thingbetter this next year.
Just start with that.
Don't overthink it, becauseoverthinking is going to get us
paralyzed.

Fonz Mendoza (59:37):
Yes, I agree with you.
Just keep it simple andstreamline, Start off with that
one little thing and then justmake that change.
And as hard as it can besometimes I think oftentimes too
and I just want to add issometimes, when our stress
levels are high, we alwaysrevert back to the way we used
to do things.
So it's just a matter of evenfighting that too as well, just

(59:57):
to be able to overcome thatstress and just say, okay, look,
I know I've been making thisprogress.
Let's just continue movingforward and not let that stress
get you and just fall back intoyour normal routine, because,
exactly, yeah for sure.
All right guys.
Well, thank you so much forjoining me on this more this
morning.
I mean, it's always an honorand a pleasure to have some
amazing guests, but today'sconversation, too, was fantastic

(01:00:19):
.
I mean just getting yourinsight.
Having back tish and havingrick on as a first time guest
too, is just great.
And hearing and we didn't eventalk about ai fun we didn't, and
I was telling rick before youshowed up, you know, I was
telling rick.
I was like, oh, I'm so happyfor this show.
It's just kind of a nice little, you know, change of pace and
really just getting into thebasics, and sometimes that's

(01:00:40):
what we need many times, justkind of that little swift kick
back into the basics just toremember some things and then
just continue to move forwardthere.
So really excited about that,and we'll make sure that we link
all the info for the book, yourbios, and then, of course,
those extra resources that Tishwill send.
That way all our listeners canget a hold of that too as well.
But before we wrap up, as youknow, we and get a hold of that

(01:01:02):
too as well.
But before we wrap up, as youknow, we always end the show
with these last three questions,and I know I forgot to put them
in the calendar.
Invite, or did I?
I'm not sure.

Tisha Poncio (01:01:07):
I was looking for them.
I don't know where they are,but I'm okay, but it's all good.
I think you guys will be fine.

Fonz Mendoza (01:01:12):
So what we'll do is we'll go ahead and start with
Rick a weakness, and we knowthat for Superman kryptonite,
you know, was that one thingthat weakened him.
So I want to ask you, Rick, inthe current state of education,
what would you say is yourcurrent edu kryptonite?

Rick Butterworth (01:01:38):
I honestly I would say right now is actually
AI.
I would actually say it's AIbecause it's.
I think it's.
I have used AI but the problemI have is it ends up.
I don't want to rely on AI.
I still want to keep to my waysof working.

(01:02:00):
It allows me to be my mostcreative, really problem solve.
I love problem solving myself.
If I start using ai, I'm gonnalose all of that ability and
really tried just reallytraining myself, because
whenever, if you're playing asport or anything like that, you
want to be consistent with it.
I don't want ai to just come inand replace some of the things

(01:02:24):
I'm doing because, oh, it's aquick win and it gets things
done faster than I I wouldnormally do so.
Um, I have depending on it fromtime to time, but it's yeah, I
have a bit of a love-haterelationship with uh, with ai
yeah, no, no, for sure, I'vepeople even, and I know we've
got a mutual friend, I believe.

Fonz Mendoza (01:02:44):
And then she posted, also recently, when she
gave this keynote, she said hey,I'm going to have to hold back
on AI because she goes.
I had this keynote already likedone like a month ago, but as
she was going through it and sheknows the content, but she used
, you know, some tools to createthe keynote, she said I lost,

(01:03:05):
like that, that's not me, so itwas just kind of like one of
those like whoa moments.
So I definitely feel you andhear you, rick, so thank you for
sharing that tish on to you.
What would you say is yourcurrent edu kryptonite?

Tisha Poncio (01:03:17):
yeah, uh, the amount of digital tools that are
out there, or digital toolswithout soul.
I don't know how to explain that.
It's like I want tools that aregoing to allow me again, this
is back to my neurodivergentbrain right?
I need tools that are going toallow me to stack things right,

(01:03:37):
like, whether it's goal stackingor, like you said, and this is
how we did it in the classroomgoal stacking where, like you
said and this is how we did itin the classroom, I would take
my teaks and be like, okay, Ican do 20 teaks with this one
like project, and like thesethree digital tools, I it's
tools that are making me feellike I can't expand.
I don't know how else to saythat and I don't know if you
guys understand what I'm saying,but it's like tools that are

(01:03:59):
not helping me to grow, whetherthat is in my knowledge or in my
you know my, my tech expertiseor whatever, but I think, in
general, my kryptonite is a lotof digital tools that are out
there.
Like you know, it's justbecause I've done this for so
long on, like vetting digitaltools.
I'm like yeah there's.
There's a tool for everythingand it's getting so cumbersome

(01:04:21):
to like keep track of all of thethings.
And I just I feel the heavinesson teachers, right, I don't
know how else to explain that,but it's a heaviness that I feel
, because how do you possiblykeep up with all of the tools
that are out there and all ofthe updates and all of the
things?
And then, in that regard, mykryptonite is giving me data,

(01:04:45):
because, dad, there's so muchdata everywhere, like what is my
password for this and what ismy password for that, and I
don't know.
It's just a lot.
It becomes very cumbersome.
So then there are days when I'mlike you know what I'm not, I'm
not using that.
I'll be honest with you.
This is a true story.
At my new new job at Smart, weuse a tool called ClickUp, which
is very similar to Notion orMonday.

(01:05:05):
Right now, clickup is mykryptonite.
That tool and I we are notgetting along.
So this whole week I just saidI'm not opening it this week.
I just can't open it.
I'm going to do the things Iknow I need to do, but I can't
open it this week.
So I don don't know.
I really feel the teacher'spain with that, and that's just
you know.
It's also one of the reasons wedidn't put any tech tools in our

(01:05:27):
book.
We didn't want people to gettoo caught up in the tech tool.
It's not about the tech tool,it's not about the digital tool.
It is about the instructionalstrategy.
It's about the pedagogy.
It's about the.
You know the frameworks thatyou're using with your students.
You can get so I used to tellmy students you're doing your
project, oh, and they'd be likemiss poncio, we want to like, we

(01:05:49):
want to.
They'd be like you and rick, wewant to make it look really
pretty.
Can we spend all of our time inphotoshop and all of our?
And I'd be like that's awesome.
You did great.
You spent 30 hours in photoshop.
I still don't know what contentyou're telling me about, and so
it's kind of like that.
I don't, you know.
I don't know.
I went on a tangent there.
No, no, no, but it's okay.

Fonz Mendoza (01:06:08):
I agree with you in the sense that it's about
bringing it back to the teacherbeing seen as the expert and you
know, and just going back tohey, it's okay to not have a
Chromebook in front of thestudent's face all the time.

Rick Butterworth (01:06:22):
You know it's okay to have a discussion.

Fonz Mendoza (01:06:25):
It's okay for them to use color pencils and
crayons to create a project or,you know, cut cardboard out or
whatever it's about balance.

Tisha Poncio (01:06:32):
If we aren't teaching our students about
balance in their learning,balance in their personal and
professional lives, we are doinga disservice to them.
There has to be balance, forsure.

Fonz Mendoza (01:06:43):
And then going back to the tools, like you have
one tool with 150 tools in itand then, like you said, but it
doesn't help you grow.
All it does is it's going tospit out like, well, here, try
this.
I was like, well, I alreadyknow how to do all of this, but
then it says now create this.
So it's like you're giving memore work to do.

Tisha Poncio (01:07:00):
Chat.
Gpt and I, we go round andround because there are times
when I'm like, OK, you'reuseless to me right now.
You know like you helped me tothis point, but you can't get me
to where I actually need to go.
So yeah, yeah.
I talk to my 12 a lot.

Fonz Mendoza (01:07:14):
All right, here we go.
Question number two.
We'll start with you, tish, ifyou could have a billboard with
anything on it, what would it beand why?

Tisha Poncio (01:07:22):
there's a way, not the way, because I am really
tired of people thinking thatthe way that they think and the
way that they do things and theway that they believe is the
only way that that was fire,that was a.

Fonz Mendoza (01:07:34):
That meant wow that.
Oh man, that's good, that'sgonna hit some people hard it
will but I love it.
I love it.
All.
Right, rick I.

Rick Butterworth (01:07:42):
I don't know if you can beat that, but I'm
just definitely curious aboutyour billboard too I I knew I
wouldn't, but I was thinking, ifyou were going to ask me first,
I was going to steal that fromtish because that has always
been her.
Well, she's drilled that intome so much.
Um, that's slight tangent, butI ended up using that on her
during our main session at istiuh, when she was telling me how

(01:08:04):
to hold the microphone and Ijust went.
There's a way to hold amicrophone.
But no, mine will be.
I would probably say you're notalone on what you know and what
you don't know.

Fonz Mendoza (01:08:19):
I love it, that's good, I love it, that's great.
Practical advice, you know,just for any teacher or anybody
in any situation, is you're notalone.
And I think it goes back towhat you were mentioning too,
rick, and while we were havingthe conversation, it's like you
know to know that you're not theonly one going through
something or having you knowsaying like okay, I'm not the
only one that is dyslexic andhaving a hard time.

(01:08:40):
You know there are other peopleand that we can all support one
another and things of that sort.
And I think that's so importantmany times that it's important
that we find our people, that wefind those people that will
lift us up, and I think that's avery important thing, because
you can meet so many people outthere that are great, smiles and
everything, but they're notnecessarily there for your best

(01:09:01):
interest.
You know they're there fortheir, their best interest, not
your best interest.
So, yeah, so, but you're notalone, and so I love it that I
found my people here today inthis conversation.
Yeah, I love it, it's wonderful,all right.
Last question, rick, we'llstart off with you on this one
if you could trade places with asingle person for a day, who
would that person be and why?

Rick Butterworth (01:09:24):
Oh God, can you come back to me on that one?
Oh crikey, you know what Iwould.
I mean, you can always look atcelebrities and I could easily
jump to.
You know what?
See what Elon Musk's doing.
How does he?

Tisha Poncio (01:09:44):
do absolutely everything.
That do absolutely everything,because I almost said that I
think that might be mine.

Rick Butterworth (01:09:48):
I'm training places with Elon Musk for you
okay, okay, well, mine, mine, ifI'm honest, because I've been
in the sea of doing, trying todo everything all at once.
You know what, being in themind of just a neurotypical that
can just relax and switch off.
That's a good one and just belike okay, I'm gonna do this now
because being able for me, ifsix o'clock comes around, I'm

(01:10:13):
just like well, I've still gotthese five other things to do,
so I suppose I'm keeping going.
I mean, yeah, as aneurodivergent, we didn't stop,
we just we can't, stop, we don't, and it does cause pain points,
but it does also allow us toget things done.
I think for me, the curiosityof a neurotypical mind any just

(01:10:34):
general neurotypical mind andtrying to see what it's like
from that perspective would be awould be fun experience.

Tisha Poncio (01:10:41):
I'm kind of jealous of that answer, okay,
but I have questions.
Okay, is this like a freakyfriday situation and like we're
switching places and I'm gonnabe them for like an hour and
they're gonna be me?

Fonz Mendoza (01:10:50):
well, no, no, they're not gonna be you.
It's just like who do you wantto be for for a whole day?

Rick Butterworth (01:10:55):
okay it sends the disappointment in tish like
I want someone to experiencewhat I go through I know I I
thought it was going to be likea trade off.

Tisha Poncio (01:11:04):
Honestly, I think I would choose Elon Musk and it
isn't because I like Elon Musk,but I think I just have so much
curiosity around like what isgoing on and like business wise.
It's interesting that we'rerecording because I just saw
again on LinkedIn his email thathe had sent you know he had
sent that email to his, to hispeople that I'm like if it, if

(01:11:27):
it is a meeting that you don'tneed to have, don't have it.
Basically is what the whole,and I think for me, like that is
a dream life for me.
I'm, like he actually said,don't have a meeting, so I would
love to just like trade placesand like see what that's like
for a day, but I would.
I don't know this trade placesthings.
I have so many questions andthat's my neurodivergent brain
wanting to dive deeper and likeask you all the technicalities,

(01:11:49):
I won't.
Elon Musk is my choice and youknow, for good or bad.

Fonz Mendoza (01:11:55):
Excellent.
Well, I love it guys.
Well, thank you so much.
I really appreciate thiswonderful conversation.
It is definitely somethinguplifting, something fresh and
just to get away from the tech alittle bit and just really
focus on the teacher, thestudent and just continue to
build up our educators that areout there that need that support
.
And thank you so much forsharing, too.
You know your ISTE sessions andthe responses that you were

(01:12:16):
getting, because they definitelyare eye-opening.
Definitely the study you knowtoo as well, and so there's
definitely a lot of work to doin that sense.
And again, I know everything isAI, but sometimes just going
back to basics can definitelyget you a lot further and build
those skills that you reallyneed to as well.
So, thank you so much.

(01:12:37):
I appreciate you appreciate thework that you're doing For all
our audience members.
Please make sure, if you're notfollowing Tisha and if you're
not following Rick, please do so.
All their links will be sharedin the show notes too as well.
Make sure that you also go andlook for your copy of their book
, which I guarantee you isprobably going to be one of the
best things that you can investin, to kind of just help you

(01:12:58):
focus, relax and kind of reel itback to your expertise, where
you can see how much of anexpert you already are, and they
just kind of help you put allof that together and bring it
into your classroom.
So please make sure that youget that book, too, as well.
And, of course, don't forget tovisit our website at
myedtechlife, where you cancheck out this amazing episode
and the other 329 wonderfulepisodes, where, I promise you,

(01:13:21):
you will find a little somethingthat you can sprinkle on to
what you are already doing.
Great, and before we wrap up, Iwant to give a big shout out to
our sponsors, eduaid, bookCreator and Yellowdig.
Thank you so much for believingin our mission and allowing us
to bring amazing conversationsinto the education space, where
we can continue to grow togetherand, of course, to continue to

(01:13:43):
learn together, which isdefinitely very important.
So thank you so much and untilnext time, my friends, don't
forget, stay techie.
Thank you.