Episode 331: Erik Parsons

Episode Transcript
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Dr. Fonz Mendoza (00:30):
Hello everybody and welcome to another
great episode of my EdTech Life.
Thank you so much for joiningme on this wonderful day and,
wherever it is that you'rejoining us from around the world
, thank you, as always, for yoursupport.
We appreciate all the likes,the shares, the follows.
Thank you so much for thefeedback and making these
wonderful connections.
It's been wonderful to makemany new friends across all
social media.

(00:50):
So thank you for engaging withthis content because, as you
know and I always tell you, wedo what we do for you to bring
you some great conversations,great perspectives and a lot of
knowledge to help us continue togrow within our space and
continue to learn.
For sure, and I'm really excitedbecause I am welcoming back a
guest that I have had.

(01:10):
It's been a couple of yearssince he's been on the show, so
I'm really excited and a lot haschanged.
But I would love to welcome tothe show Eric Parsons, the PH
dad to the show.
So I'm really excited becausewe're going to have a wonderful
conversation, just a lot abouteducation, education theory.
We're going to be talking abouttechnology.

(01:31):
We're going to be talking allsorts of wonderful stuff.
So if you're tuning in, you'redefinitely tuning in to a
wonderful show.
So, eric, how are you doingtoday?

Erik Parsons (01:39):
Great.
It's a little warm and muggyoutside, which I live in Chicago
, so I can have cool weather andthat's not happening right now.
But that's OK, it'll.
It'll come back, hopefullyGoing to soldier on, but it's
not too bad it's.
We had a little bit of a heatwave a little back, but yeah.

Yeah, don't even worry about it.
I live in Texas, I live in thesouthernmost part of Texas, so
muggy it's.
It's really like we have twoseasons.
It's like hot and cool becauseit doesn't really get that cold
down here, so it's always justeither um brown and brown.
We don't see seasons becauseour grass is always brown all
year long.
But anyway, I can definitelyunderstand and I can definitely

(02:21):
relate to that mugginess and allthat good stuff well I'm
excited, eric, because I knowfrom the last time that you were
on the show.
You know you talk a lot about edresearch and one of the things
that I do is I followed you onTikTok and, of course, you going
through your dissertation andwriting your dissertation and me
also doing the same thing.
Obviously, there's definitelysome overlap there and the

(02:42):
content and I was like, well,this is amazing.
So now you know, a couple ofyears later, we're back on the
show.
I know we were just changing alittle bit of the name.
You know now it's the PH Dad,but the content is the same and
we're going through those things.
But now, of course, since 2022,a lot has changed technology.
Obviously, you know classroominstruction.

(03:03):
We're going to get into that.
We're going to talk a littlebit about ed tech and all those
great things.
But before we dive in for ouraudience members who may not be
familiar with your content justyet and, by the way, I highly
recommend you do follow Eric onTikTok and all socials for ed
research but give us a littlebrief introduction and what your
context is within the educationspace.

Yeah, that has a lot to do with sort of the name
change as Eric the PhD, whichwas partly when TikTok was going
down you know it was going toget closed and all that.
I wanted to branch out to otherspaces like YouTube and
Instagram and threads and bluesky and all that stuff.
And I had already kind of beenusing as a online moniker the pH

(03:47):
dad or pH dad, because I havekids and I'm working on my I'm
currently working on mydissertation.
Last time I was in coursework,the last time we talked and in a
lot of what was driving me todo stuff, post stuff was kind of
going beyond just like edresearch and more into like what
it is to live as a parent, as aresearcher, as you know, as a

(04:13):
teacher and all of these things,and so that kind of brought
everything together.
So a lot of my content is itvaries a lot Every day.
Yesterday I put up just a verysilly post about why it's fun to
have a handlebar mustache.
Go check that one out.
It's about 14 seconds.
I promise you it's fun.
And like, a couple days ago Idid a bunch of jokes that my kid

(04:36):
wrote, you know, posted a hey,two years ago I did this post
about, or three years ago I didthis post about Betsy DeVos and
why the attacks on theDepartment of Education are
really scary.
This was three years ago andthe idea of people getting into

(04:57):
school boards specifically forthe purpose of undermining
public education and pushingforward the privatization of
public spaces, you know.
So, yeah, and you know, andI'll throw up research.
I've got another post probablygoing up like today or so.
That's just a quick thing abouthow school lunches, the research

(05:18):
around school lunches, is thatif we make them universal, we
know for a fact that students'learning improves and that
internal school culture improvesand that malnutrition decreases
for the cost of feedingchildren.
If it's universal, then you getrid of a lot of the stigma of

(05:53):
who's on free lunch, who's onreduced lunch, who's paying for
their lunch, who's bringinglunch from home, etc.
Which I will tell you as a kidwho dealt with food insecurity
and poverty, that sucks.
So, yeah, that's that's, that'sa range of the things just off
the top of my head.
So, yeah, that's that's, that'sa range of the things just off
the top of my head.
And I think the biggest thingthat I really love and I'd love
to invite people to do is I loveresponding to comments and to
questions that come in comments,comments and requests.

(06:15):
Really, that's what drives meto do stuff.
I get very excited whensomebody is like, well, what do
you think about this?
Or what?
I read this thing, and?
But don't you, you know, andeven if you disagree, please, I
love the disagreement, I love tocomplicate things, so please
bring it.

I love it.
And you're absolutely right,eric does a phenomenal job.
As you see his post.
He's either posting somethingand then of course he'll get a
comment and he always repliesand it's really good natured
back and forth and it's learningand that's the best part about
it just having that discourse,which is something that I think
is so important even inclassrooms to be able to have
classroom discussions forlearning process and everything.

(06:53):
But we'll get into that alittle bit more.
But, eric, I want to dive inbecause I know we're going to be
covering just a little widearray of topics but to kind of
try to interweave them together.
Little wide array of topics,but they kind of try to
interweave them together and Ikind of want to start a little
bit about talking a lot ortalking a little about
developmentalism and behaviorism.
So I want first, before we getinto that, just if you can help

(07:14):
me and our listeners get a tightunderstanding about the
difference of developmentalismand behaviorism so we can kind
of get into the context of thisconversation.

Yeah, so these are two terms that I use.
I actually push hard againstbifurcation, the idea that
things are always one way or theother, but generally I find
that there are areas where it'slike when there are things that
are distinctly different interms of why you do them and

(07:48):
therefore what the impetus andpurpose of them is.
And to clarify, like, I think,the one that behaviorism if
you've ever heard of behavioraltherapy, if you hear about
behavior treatment plans, youknow all these sort of behavior
adjustment things, behaviorcharts, all of these things, the

(08:12):
idea of we're going to solicitand get students to behave in
the ways that we see are what webelieve educational and

(08:32):
productive, and I think capitalB productive, because I think
that's one of the biggest thingsis there's this expectation of
we have to get students toproduce work by doing X, y and Z
.
So it's very much.
You know, the like, do it theway I told you, because this is
the way to do it.

(08:53):
And then it's also, you need tobehave in these ways in order
to get along in my class.
You know, and, and, and, sothat's, you know.
Behaviorism will always bethere, the, the.
You know what Skinner foundwith the ideas of, like you know

(09:13):
, reinforcement and those rulesand positive reinforcement,
negative reinforcement, all ofthese things around those
mechanisms are genuinelyhardwired into us.
But we have to think about howand why we are purposes in
manipulating those mechanismsright Around, soliciting certain

(09:38):
behaviors from people right,are we soliciting a behavior
because it's genuinelybeneficial to the individual or
are we soliciting a behaviorbecause it matches an
expectation of what we want tosee from an individual or a
group, etc.

(09:59):
Like classroom management?
Now, developmentalism followsalong, kind of comes from.
My view comes primarily fromVygotskyan approaches to
education and learning.
And Vygotsky says that alllearning is social and that the

(10:20):
primary mechanism of learning isthrough interaction and play.
And through, the primarymechanism of learning is through
interaction and play andthrough the imaginative process.
And the idea that we're alwaysgoing from a place of
uncertainty to better knowledge,understanding, Right, and a lot
of people keep hearing thiszone of proximal development

(10:42):
Right, and this is where thiscomes from.
Is this idea of learning onlyhave?
Learning best happens when youare in the place where you have
what you need to move forward,but can't just move forward
without someone there in someway to assist you, the what we
call the more knowledgeable,other right.

(11:02):
So we have to find somebody whofinds something, or something
that provides us with moreinformation than we currently
have in order to pursuesomething we know.
Anyway, developmentalism alsosees the individual as fully
idiosyncratic.
Your learning, fonz, isdifferent than my learning and

(11:26):
my experience.
There's literally no way for usboth to have the exact same
understanding of something.
We can come to agreementabsolutely, and we only do that
through speech, right, but weunderstand that every single
person's actual learning, actualdevelopment, is their own right

(11:48):
and, more importantly, that thelearning belongs to them, right
.
So who's doing the work?
Okay, well, why are they doingthe work?
Is it for their learning or isit for them to perform in a
certain way?
And it's not that both of thosethings are.
Those things are not entirelybad, but one of the things that

(12:11):
happens, though, is we stronglyexternalize the process of
learning when it becomes aboutrepeat after me or do this?
Show me now that you can dothis, as opposed to a view of
learning that it's fundamentallyabout, like your personal

(12:32):
experience and the idea that,like you, are the very nature of
development, the nature ofbecoming right, is based on this
idea that you are alwayslearning and development never,
ever stops.
Right, because learning neverstops, and with that in mind,

(12:53):
with it being socially mediated,that learning becomes deeply
about connection with self andconnection with others.
And from a developmentaliststandpoint, that means that
we're also looking at things ashighly collaborative.
Right, because we learn withand not just because.

(13:14):
And so this is where I putmyself very much on the
developmentalist end of theworld, because I thoroughly
believe in the need to see everyindividual as having absolute
value, basic human value and adeserved basic human agency.

(13:38):
Right, meaning some sense ofself-control, self-purpose,
sense of the ability to makechoices.
Right, agency means having theability to make choices.
It's what we often talk aboutwhen we talk about freedom.
Right, and my problem with theway in which we currently

(14:00):
structure most of our curriculumis that it is inherently
behaviorist.
It is about managing whatstudents do and so what it then
becomes.
It's about making kids complyover, collaborating with them to

(14:22):
actually learn.

I love it.
No, no, no.
And this really what youexplained is you know and I
guess I just want to add to thiscoming into education from the
outside world, you know, comingin from marketing and
advertisement, learning a lot,marketing and sales and customer

(14:52):
service and all of that, andthen coming into education and
seeing to me, you know treatingit kind of as a business and
understanding that not everystudent is going to learn the
same way.
And going back to a little bitabout what you said, that every
student or every participant inthe learning has value and of
course, at the end of the day,my goal is I want to sell them
on the subject, but at the sametime, I know that not every
student is going to learn theexact same way.
And so, going back to whatyou're saying, as far as

(15:13):
behaviorism, one of the thingsthat has really shocked me and
it still shocks me to this day.
And I know I'm in education andI know I'm in a certain role
where I see things, but I alwayssee things different and I
always feel like an outsider.
Know, I'm in a certain rolewhere I see things, but I always
see things different and Ialways feel like an outsider,
because I'm thinking to myselfthis should be more social.
But, like you said, the focusmore is on behavior.

(15:33):
This is the behavior you needto behave because not because it
benefits you, but because I, asa teacher, get the benefit of
just going through my lessonsand uninterrupted, and I don't
have to worry about you at allwhatsoever.
So if there's an issue andthings aren't going the way that
I want them to do, then I'mgoing to put you on a behavior
plan, because these are the bestbehaviors for you to be able to

(15:56):
be successful.
Well, is that?
Is that?
To me, it just seems more likeyou're pushing more rules on the
student just so they can besuccessful in your class, but
really it's just that behavior.
And so one of the things that Iwanted to add to that is, in my
experience, is coming into theclassroom and I don't know if
you've heard this before, maybefrom other teachers or educators

(16:17):
, but there was always.
You know, if we work in a pod,you know there was three
teachers, including myself, soit was actually all three of us.
So it was weird that they wouldalways say like, oh my gosh, mr
Mendoza, man, this student isjust, you know, he is off the
walls, he is doing this, he isdoing that, he can't sit, still,
he, you know, do you have thoseproblems in your class?

(16:39):
I'm like, no, actually I don't.
I don't no-transcript the factthat my class was very much

(17:08):
social, where there was a lot ofinteraction, a lot of discourse
, I found that I had very littlebehavior issues.
So, in that sense, you know,being able to give them that
agency, being able to allow themto speak, to talk and say, hey,
mr Mendoza, you know what?
Like I'm really notunderstanding this.

(17:28):
Can you know, either try it adifferent way, or then, all of a
sudden, I'd have a studentthat's like, hey, don't worry,
let me help you.
Like this is the way I learnedit and explained it in their own
way.
I'm just thinking to myselfthis is, I don't know.
Sometimes I feel that weovercomplicate the classroom and
it goes back to what you said.
It's like this is the way we'vealways done it.

(17:50):
And if you see, this is the waywe've always done, it leads to
your frustration and leads tothe students' frustration.
So isn't it about time we kindof think about this a little?
And so I was recently startedreading a book that's called
Free to Learn, where it talksabout recess and how students go
out and how they learn and theyhave fun and they're able to

(18:11):
cope and build communication,collaboration skills, critical
thinking skills, because theyhave that time to play discourse
.
They're doing all of thosethings and now it's like no more
recess, you can't have recess.
So it's like what are we doing?

From a developmentalist standpoint it
is.
So it is completely backwards,right, because we take the thing
that is most natural to humanexperience, which is learning
through interaction and play,and we start to say, well, now
you have to get serious aboutlearning which the thing is is

(18:50):
play is serious, because play isimportant, right?
It's why you see kids get intoso much discourse and you know,
like about like, well, we'regonna play it this way.
I don't want to play this wayand this, that, that and the
other Giving them.
You know, when they have thatagency, they will discover that
they would rather play thanargue.

(19:12):
It doesn't seem like it, butit's true.
They actually would rather playthan sitting around and argue,
because if they're sittingaround arguing then they're not
playing.
So it becomes everybody'sresponsibility to create the
space of developing the activitythat's happening now and that
everybody is a participant,because they all want to move

(19:35):
forward together.
Is that easy?
No, is that simple?
No?
Will there inevitably beinteractions and situations that
are informed by lots of thingsfrom outside of that that will
hamper and cause complicationsand conflict and problems?
Yes, but does that mean weshouldn't promote that process

(20:01):
of learning how to interact andwork together towards creating
something, and I love that youmentioned that, because at the
foundation of my dissertationresearch I'm working around the
interaction of improvisationaltheater and educational theory
and curriculum.

(20:21):
What a lot of people in theUnited States well, almost
nobody in the United Statesknows is that what we think of
as improvisation in this country, in the US, is built off of the
work of Viola Spolin, wholiterally wrote the book
Improvisation for the Theater,right.
Well, she developed all thegames, all of her process, her
entire philosophy ofimprovisation, which is actually

(20:44):
a philosophy of learning, atHull House, which was a social
settlement project on the southside of Chicago, which was the
epicenter of much of theprogressive education movement,
meaning, and particularly thedemocratic progressive education
movement started by Jane Addams.

(21:04):
Well, there, as a young personI think she was like 18
initially she worked with NevaBoyd, who is among the early
social workers, and Neva Boydwas one of the big proponents of
playgrounds, the idea thatthere should be spaces set aside
specifically for children toplay, at the beginning of the

(21:25):
20th century, and she also wrotea book capturing all of the
children's games that she couldfind, actually recording.
These are the games thatchildren play and when you go
through there you see so many ofthe same sort of things that
you just learned as a kidbecause kids were playing them.
You know, like without anybodygoing.

(21:47):
Well, here's how you play thegame.
They teach each other.
You know it's.
You know the kids who are infifth grade one year then teach
the fourth graders the game theyplayed last year and you know
forever and ever, a hundredyears later, they're all still
playing some of the same games.
But this comes back to thisidea that at the foundation of
the progressive educationmovement, which is also
developmentalist in that theidea of progression is you come

(22:11):
in with this amount ofexperience, you come in with
these educative experiences,things that you've held on to
and reviewed and gone yeah, Iwant to remember that that's
important.
And then you have anotherexperience and you're building
upon that.
You are progressing forward,much in the way that Vygotsky
and others would say that you'redeveloping throughout life.
So, yeah, yeah, and so a lot ofwhat you're talking about

(22:34):
really really just resonateswith all of that.

Yeah, and you know, and that's something now
that I want to ask you because,as you know, you know, after,
even slightly before COVID, butafter COVID I mean it's just
screen time like crazy.
You know, it's like it justseems.
Now it's it's students arethere's a Chromebook open or
some kind of device open at alltimes during at the desk for all

(22:58):
subjects, like all day long,and I just feel like sometimes
it's like, well, you know, it'slike like it is, you know, as
the learning engineers orteachers that we are, I mean, I
understand you know there isthat teaching component, but
does everything have to be doneon screen?
So I want to ask you, you know,if you can paint me a picture
of what we're just talking about.

(23:19):
What does developmentalism looklike and feel like in a tech
rich classroom and what might besome of the things that
students are doing differently?

So when this is a thing like, it requires a lot of
it requires a lot of work torewrite what is what we call the
hidden curriculum of the like.
Do things in these ways right,such that we give ownership over

(23:51):
the experience of being in theclassroom to the student, right,
they are not in my class, theyare in class with me.
That is an importantdistinction, and so what that
means is when I come to astudent working the way that I
do, who's on a computer ordevice of any sort and we have a

(24:14):
bit of content that we'reengaged in, right, that we've
all agreed.
Today we're looking at WorldWar, I, you know whatever the
topic is, I will come to themand I will say is this
technology actually helping youbetter understand what we're on

(24:36):
about here?
Is the way that you're usingthis technology actually helping
you gain a better understandingand develop your sense of the
concepts here?
Is the way that you are usingand interacting with technology
assistive to our collectivegoals and to your goals?

(24:59):
Hopefully, as a learner.
You're in here because I don'twant I tell students all the
time I'm like, if you're justdoing something because I said
so, that's actually a waste ofyour time and mine, because I
want you to actually be engagedin learning, right, and so the
you know it's a lot of therelationship with the technology

(25:23):
is kind of fraught, becauseit's you're only going to use
technology in this way that Itell you now and that at no
point will you ever work in theother way.
And of course, especially youknow, I work primarily with high
schoolers who are naturallyrebellious, so of course it's
going to be like well, wheneverI can find a game that's like

(25:44):
rebellious, so of course it'sgoing to be like well, whenever
I can find a game that's likeyou know, not that I can get
through the school firewall,then that's what I'm going to do
to just be able to say I havesome control over my life, even
for two minutes, right.
But when we frame it in this,like this is your time in your
space to do your work, and I'mhere to help you to do your work

(26:09):
, and I'm here to help you, well, as a teacher, I am there to
occasionally be the moreknowledgeable other.
I cannot always be the moreknowledgeable other because I
can't be in your head.
So, like when I ask you, as mystudent funds, if I come up to
you and I say is the program youknow, is the thing that you're
doing now?
Is this helpful to you for whatwe are studying in this class?

I don't know.

Okay, well then let's figure that out.
You know, off-brand,browser-based Minecraft is
actually going to help you getan understanding of what the
causalities of history are,right?
So how can we do that Like, isthere anything on this device

(26:58):
that's going to help you withthat?
Right now, are you able to usethat device in a way that's
going to be helpful?
Because that's the other thing.
Sometimes that's literally notthe case.
You know, and that's where wekind of step into the.
We provide structure.
Right, it's not that we don'thave rules, but we provide

(27:19):
structure in the form of sayingyou know, being able to provide
evidence and say well, when Icame by earlier, you were doing,
you were watching YouTubeshorts and none of those seem to
be anything about what we'restudying.
I bet there's some that do thatare.
So if you're going to do that,I need you to.
Can you show me five thatactually inform this?

(27:41):
And can you find, can youcross-reference, some resources
for that?
And that's harder usually thanwhat we've already asked them to
do.
So they got to go.
Oh wait, yes, maybe I'll justdo it the other way, you know,
but like it has to me, it is soimportant that it become about.

(28:07):
How are you, the individual,this student, interacting with
the technology?
And is that technologyassistive or is it I don't want
to even just say distracting,but it serving a you know, from
a behavior standpoint amaladaptive purpose, right?

(28:29):
Is it serving a place that itis me, because we do things to
meet needs.
This is where we get to beanger, is it right?
It's not like we're throwingout the baby with the bathwater.
We do things to, to get thingsto, to see.
So a lot of times the way kidsinteract with screens and stuff,
a lot of that is, like, youknow, them trying to deal with

(28:52):
the world and it's a way ofcontrolling stimulus for them,
and that isn't always the bestway to do that, but if it's the
way that they know, then that'swhat they're going to go with,
right?
That sort of self-soothing kindof aspect, yeah.

I was going to just add, going along with what
you said, especially whenyou're putting in the tech, I
know oftentimes, going back tothe behaviorism in the sense of
you know, there are certainprograms it's like, oh, you got
to do 30 minutes per day perweek per subject and all this
other stuff, and then so it justbecomes like do, click, repeat
and reward.
You know, just because you didyour, you know 90 problems or 90

(29:37):
additional problems forpractice.
So you get your littlecertificate there that's digital
and so it still goes, goesalong, I understand, with
supplementing that learning, butis it truly the way that the
student is needing to learn?
Because oftentimes I see itthat students will just go in,
they just click, click, click,click.
They get their time in, they dothe problems that they need to

(29:58):
do and there really is noteacher in the loop in the sense
of hey, let me go in and seeare, are there any issues, are
there any troubles?
And it's usually just soautomated where it's almost like
there's no teacher overseeingor overseeing, like, hey, do I
need to stop here and say let'sgo ahead and talk as a class and

(30:20):
do a reteach or maybe aspecific group, because it just
seems like we're moving so fastthat you feel and I get it, you
know, with teachers feelingoverwhelmed, it's like well, the
program will do it and ifthat's what they got, that's
what they got.
But I feel like kind of whatyou said is like hey, is this
really helping you?
And if it's not, like maybelet's see if we can figure out a

(30:42):
different way.
I love what you said, you know,especially if they're just like
into YouTube and stuff likethat, it's like hey, all right,
let's see.
You want to research this,let's go ahead and let's do
research this way.
But I need these citations, Ineed this rubric, I need this.
And, mind you, this wassomething that I was doing, you
know.
This will be probably maybelike eight, nine, ten, maybe

(31:03):
eleven years ago, when I wasstill in the classroom and I was
doing it with fifth graderswhere I never gave tests.
I never gave tests.
I would be there, as a, like myfriend Kevin Doherty calls, says
, learning engineer, you know,being in the front sort of
engineering, that initial teachand saying, ok, guys, here is
what I expect at the end.

(31:24):
Teach and saying, okay, guys,here is what I expect at the end
.
And now I get to see theprogress because we know that
there's going to be a product atthe end, and usually it's the
teachers.
It's like here's the product,okay, but what was the process?
We don't focus on that processand here, in seeing them work
together in groups orindividually with that
expectation of this, is thisthis is what I need.

(31:47):
I like the kids were, they wereon it and I got to see so many
different ways of thinking.
I got to learn new things thatI got to share with my other
students in the other classes,and when I would introduce
something, especially techrelated uh, maybe I would just
teach them the little that Iknew, they went off and then

(32:07):
after that they would say, oh,mr Mendoza, look what I learned.
So when they taught me that bythe end of the day I look like
an expert because I already knewhow to troubleshoot everything
for the other students, so kindof, and that's the way that it
worked for me.
But I wanted what I loved aboutit is that they felt they had
control over their learning,which they really did.

(32:29):
I just said here's myexpectation at the end, but for
me, visibly being able to seethe process, I can initially go
back right away and say, okay,hey, let's talk about this.
Is this correct?
What are your thoughts on this?
Could we add this?
Might we remove this and beable to do that, so that by the
time they got the finishedproduct, it's like they already

(32:49):
knew that they were going to dowell, but the learning took
place.
Socially, yes, and that'ssomething that I loved about
that, you know, and so I seethat the tech being beneficial
in that sense where it it almosttakes not necessarily center
stage, but when the learningtakes center stage and the tech
falls, you know, kind of on theside as a supplement, then I

(33:11):
think that that's a really sweetspot there, where it's not just
the screen in front 30 problems, 30 minutes per day, per
subject, do click, you know,finish, reward and then do the
same thing and just drone onthrough, and I think that that's
something that yeah, no, you'reabsolutely on point, and it's.

I have so many different things that I want to
touch on, but I want to besuccinct.
I think what you're reallypointing at is, and that I think
we're both very much in thesame place.
Lot of the ed tech that's beingproduced is there, and this

(33:56):
goes back before even theInternet.
There has been this belief thatsomehow you can build a
teacherless curriculum Right, inwhich is what any that any
Yahoo off the street.
You can hand them this stuffand say present these things
from the students and make themdo it and they will succeed

(34:21):
Right.
And what happens then isstudents end up very much, and I
know we're getting to thistransactionalism Right, which I
think is a big problem withintech stuff that is getting
reinforced a lot.
But and I want to get to thatremind me to come to that.
But the aspect, one of thebiggest things I see, especially

(34:43):
when we talk about like using,like you were saying, these
programs where it's like sitdown.
Do these number of problemsshow me that you've done this
section where it's like sit down?
Do these number of problemsshow me that you've done this
section right?
Because of the way that we doso much by the, you know the way
in which we interact withstudents, in which, more often
than not, what they're doing isabout getting our approval as

(35:08):
opposed to our input, and thosetwo things are very different.
Right, we can, as people whohave more experience in this and
have more knowledge in theseareas that we're focusing on, we
can absolutely provide critique.
Like you were saying, you canadd leading questions, be like
oh, how are you thinking aboutthat?

(35:28):
What's going on there and whathave you?
But the problem is is usuallyit's us going.
That was right, that was wrong.
That was right, that was wrong.
Here's how you were supposed todo it.
Go back and bring it back to meafter you've done it the way I
told you.
That is really antithetical tointernalizing a sense of

(35:50):
learning and the learningprocess.
Like to make it your own,because it then becomes about
satisfying somebody else.
Well, if all you're doing istrying to satisfy somebody else,
are you going to be askinghigher order questions?
Are you going to be engaged inhigher order thinking in which
you're going to come to theteacher going?

(36:11):
So I just did this thing withinthe program and it told me this
.
But it's doing this and I'mhaving a hard time figuring out
where I'm going off.
That's what you want studentsto do.
That's a great interaction withthe technology.
That's a way to like make it sothis student can be at their
place that they're doing in mathand the same student in the

(36:34):
same room can be working at thelevel that they're ready for and
doing.
But they need to be able tocome to the teacher and
collaborate with them.
And and that biggest thing to methat I'm always telling the
high school students about is,like when you get to college,
one of the greatest superpowersyou can have is coming to class
and being able to ask goodquestions to clarify things you

(36:58):
don't understand.
So you have to be able tofigure out what is the thing
that I think I'm missing?
What is this area, as opposedto most often coming and going,
I don't get it.
What don't you get the thingyou assigned?
Okay, can you just show meagain what's the right answer?

(37:20):
That's what they want.
They want to know what theright answer is and they're not
necessarily interested in theprocess which you were talking
about, which brings me back toimprovisation as an educational
format, because it's actually aphilosophy of education, the way
that Viola Spolin wrote it,which I guess I didn't get to.

(37:41):
Viola Spolin wrote the book onimprovisation in the United
States.
Her son, paul Sills, startedSecond City as well as a couple
other companies.
So like the American traditionof improvisation very much, she
is the mother of Americanimprovisation.
Now there are other variationselsewhere, but in this case you
have somebody who's explicitlytalking about in her book about

(38:04):
improvisation for the theaterquote.
As teachers, we must constantlyscourge authoritarianism from
ourselves.
That is, that is not like oh,this is just a theater thing.
That is an understanding oflike how we engage with learning

(38:24):
and improvisation requires usto be collaborative.
And what's important and Ithink a lot of people think of
it as like pulling something outof your butt, and that's not it
.
The difference is especiallyfrom behaviorist or, you know,
this sort of like capitalistconstruct, structuralist view.

(38:46):
I guess I don't know, I'msupposed to be able to come up
with epistemology, all thesefancy words, but in the primary
traditional system there is thesense that the goal is to teach
a teacher and students how to dothings Right.
Well, that's the do this.
You get this right, right inshe when she writes, and what we

(39:18):
talk about with improvisation.
You don't know how you're goingto do anything.
What you do know is.
You know who is there, you knowwhat is going to happen.
What is the, what's the?
Not what is going to happen,but what, what is going, what it
is, what it, what is it about?
You know what are we on about,and then where are we?
And that is a structure.
And with that also comes howlong?

(39:39):
How long are we going to dothis?
Right, but what you then dowith your partners is you
validate each other's thingsthat they bring in, meaning that
you know, fonz, you're going tocontribute what you know or
what you think you know, andthen I'm going to respond to
that with oh, that is what youthink you know, that is what you

(40:00):
know.
I have a different perspectivethat says maybe we need to look
at this a little differently.
Now let's problem solve togetherand the how of the learning,
the how of creating the project,we don't know that until that
happens, it becomes the process,becomes the thing.
So, yeah, we're going to do aproject, and I would even argue
that, like we don't even knowprecisely what we're going to

(40:23):
get at the end, we shouldn't,because if we did, where would
be the learning?
Learning, because the wholepoint of learning is going from
uncertainty or not knowingsomething, a big like oh I don't
understand this, tounderstanding something that I
didn't understand before andlike so where's the eureka?
Where's the discovery?
Discovery matters, and so ifthe product that we get at the

(40:49):
end is exactly what weanticipated, then that, really
that, indicates to me personallythat I have failed as a teacher
, because what it means isthey're only doing the, they're
just trying to reproduce theexample I gave them, um, and

(41:09):
that isn't necessarily learning,because what that is is them
going.
I was shown how to do this.
I'm going to do the thing I wastold.

No, I totally get that.
And so, going back to that, Ijust kind of want to tie that in
because it just doesn't happenand I just want to let everybody
listening to our show that itjust doesn't happen.
K-12 space.
But I'm just going to share anexample doing doctoral
coursework and going into aprofessor who's fabulous, she
loves, she always changed thingsup and everything.

(41:38):
So this one semester she's likeokay, guys, here's your
learning, this is what you'regoing to do.
You guys get a choice board soyou have to complete six contact
hours of this and six contacthours of this.
But here's your choices.
There you go and the look onthe faces of my classmates deer

(42:00):
in headlights, because they've,they were so used to show me an
example of that product that youwant.
And I'm just going to mimicthat same thing just with my own
writing, and this is what we'retalking about in high school.
So it's, they're programmed fromsuch a young age that when they
do get into that collegesetting and you do have a
professor that says, hey, you'vegot a choice in voice in the

(42:22):
way that you want to learn.
As long as you do meet this,these six hours and this
criteria, you're good.
But it's like they didn't knowwhere to start and for me,
coming in from like one of mythings that I always say is
improvise, adapt and overcome.
So I, without even doing orunder knowing before you know
about improvisation andeducation, it just became second

(42:45):
nature and I was like, okay,this is easy.
And actually I even raised upmy hand and hey, can I do a
podcast, like for one of these?
And they're like sure, I waslike all right, cool.
And you know, you're not afraidto ask those questions because
it's a matter of getting to thatlearning and knowing that.
Hey, you know, we're each goingto come to the end with

(43:06):
different ways of knowledgebecause of our contact hours and
the way we do things.
And I thought that that wasfabulous.
But going back to that, you'reright, where students will raise
their hands and, well, I don'tget it.
Well, can you show me again?
And they're just really justtrying to get to that finished
product because they just wantto please you by giving you the
right answer, to show you like,hey, I will at least make you

(43:29):
think that they understood.
But really, in reality, theyjust say I just want to please
my teacher, because I just wantto make sure that we're good and
then that way we can move on tothe next stuff and I'm not
singled out anymore.

So yeah, well, because you're going to pay them
in the form of a grade.
And the thing is and this isreally hard and I talk to
students about this a lot.
It's like I tell them likegrades are a problem, you need
to do things, you need to find away to do things for you and

(44:00):
not for the grade.
And they go yes, but gradesmatter.
I'm like yes, grades absolutelymatter, you know.
So we have to find this spacewhere we can recognize that
grades matter, while alsounderstanding that the grades
are supposed to reflect acertain amount of engagement and

(44:21):
understanding.
And it's like if you do thisfor you and you really make the
effort to understand and engagewith it to the best of your
ability, the grades will comeand, honestly, a hard-earned B
will always feel better than aneasy A and, especially, it will
feel even better than anA.
Where you're like I have noidea what I learned and what I

(44:45):
was supposed to learn in thatclass.
I just did the things.
And this is where we get to thetransactionalism.
Right, it's students are.
There's this expectation.
We mostly work with the stick,with an idea of this long term
carrot for students who don'treally think long term.

(45:06):
So the long-term carrot is oneday when you do all the things
and you go to college, you get adegree and all this, you're
going to go out in the world,you're going to be able to get a
good job, you're going to nothave to starve and have a roof
over your head, because, ofcourse, we have to weaponize

(45:26):
poverty.
And the thing is is like Ithink this is a big part of the
problem with classroom behaviorright now is that kids are
looking at that and going, oh,that's a lot, oh, it's like so
if I do everything you tell me,I will be successful and I will
be able to have goodrelationships, I'll have a
family or be able to be with thepeople I want and I'll have a

(45:49):
stable living situation withfood on the table on a daily
basis.
And, of course, when you gowell, that's not true, because
it really isn't these days.
You know, especially for a lotof the millennials out there
they came into when they startedcoming into the workforce in
2008, in the middle of a giantrecession.

(46:12):
You know when there just aren'tjobs out there and that the
jobs that are out there are nothumanly enriching, et cetera.
And you've got the kids ofthese people going like my
parents have been miserable andcan barely ever make anything do
and they got straight A's inschool and they have their
degrees and they're struggling.
You know, and, and so then it'slike, okay, well, if that's the

(46:36):
primary carrot, then then wehave to get it.
You know, it's like why can'twe go with the more immediate
carrot of you know what'sawesome learning something?
You know what's awesomebecoming something different
every day, becoming more, beingable to explore more and
developing the skills to beheard and translate this into

(46:59):
something that other people caninteract with and that you can
build collaboratively.
Be upon, because if you can'ttell me anything, then there's
nothing for me to work with.
Right, and I can, I can't youknow, if all you like.
Going back to the like well, Idon't know.
Okay, well, you know something,and kids will tell you all day,

(47:23):
like I did a.
I was subbing for a historyclass and they were about to go
into Greek history, so I did aKWL, which is what do you know,
what do you want to know andwhat have you learned, right?
So I did the K and W with themand I was like what do you know?
And I had, and I was like Iwant everybody, I want you can
find a speaker at your table.

(47:44):
That's fine, you know somebodycan speak up for you, but I want
everybody to be represented insomething that you know, any
little thing like something.
And I had kids flat out tell meI know nothing.
And I'm like I find that hardto believe that you've never
heard of anything from ancientGreece ever.
No, no, don't know anything.

(48:08):
Okay, so you've never heard ofHercules?
Oh well, yeah, I've heard ofHercules.
Okay, so you know somethingabout ancient Greece and like,
have you ever heard the wordmythology?
Yeah, that's like with all thegods and the pantheon and stuff,
and like you know there's theseold myths and like Zeus was a
douchebag.
And I'm like, yeah, so you doknow things, but they come, we

(48:32):
developed this.
When we have this transactionalrelationship, they don't see
what they're bringing in ashaving purpose and meaning and
that they are building upon whatthey already have often yeah,
it breaks my heart, you knowcoming in even at, you know, at
the high school level.

When I first started high school, I started
as an algebra teacher and I wasgetting the repeat testers,
which is the students thatdidn't pass the state exam.
They would come through me andit was just kind of like just
the cycle of students coming in,so if they didn't pass it the
first time they would do theremedial, which would be with me
or another teacher, and thensometimes they couldn't even
pass it, and what we were seeingis that now a lot of the
students were actually gettingout and being successful, but

(49:20):
the students that were in thatother class were not, and then I
would see them and it was justconstant in that sense of but
the understanding, of buildingthem up and understand and
telling them look, what youlearned over there, you do have
that knowledge and then it'sjust putting it together and
then just building them up.
Like you said, you kind of haveto pull that string, but then

(49:41):
at the end they're like oh, Iunderstand this, this makes
sense.
Now I see the connection, butagain it goes back to everything
just being a grade, beingtransactional and not really
making that connection with thestudent and really just kind of
taking the time even just totweak our own practice to help a
student.

(50:01):
And I always say if I'm able totweak my instruction to help
one particular student, I knowit's going to benefit all
students.
You know, because I said ifit's good for one, it's going to
be good for all.
Because some students may notwant to raise their hands, some
students might be shy and somestudents may felt like it's
always been punitive for them tosay hey, you know, can I have

(50:22):
this question?
Well, no, sorry, like where yougot to move on and this is the
way you do it and that's the wayit's been.
Transactional, I'm done.
You know, here I go, I got.
As long as I get my grades, I'mgood.
If you learned it, fine.
If you didn't, fine, you know.
And it just kind of breaks myheart and again, that's why I'm
kind of seeing like an outsider,because, coming from the
outside in and even to this dayI still have that perspective

(50:45):
because I was like there's somuch wrong that is being done
and that that we can improve on.
So those are some of thosethings there.
So now, as we kind of wrap this, is something new.

This goes back over a hundred years, like John
Dewey, you know, is writingabout this.
And, by the way, john Dewey,like he's this big like guy
about progressive education anddemocracy and education and all
of this, and people, oftenteachers, often don't even read
his stuff until until're doing aPhD or maybe a master's course,

(51:14):
while they're working in aschool called Dewey Right.
And he even back then he's likeyou know, traditional models
and they don't read.
You know, and they don't readFreire, paolo Freire, who wrote
Pedagogy of the Oppressed,pedagogy of the oppressed, and

(51:35):
what he describes in thistransactional model.
And I'd be interested to knowhow many folks are already
familiar with this idea of thebanking model of learning.
Where it's, this idea ofstudents come in as an empty
vessel and your job is to putthings into them.
Your job is to educate them to,to teach them, to do something
to them which is very differentfrom teaching, which is doing

(51:59):
with yeah, right, um and yeah.
And what's funny is like kidswill, kids will, they'll push
back on you when you're like youget to have some agency here
because they're not familiarwith it, and they're like, oh,
no, oh, I don't, and theybelieve.
They genuinely believe and Ithink this actually does happen

(52:20):
is a teacher will say I'm goingto give you agency here, but
then it's like, well, but thecurriculum that I'm doing says
they have to do X, y, z, so youcan do whatever you want, as
long as the product is this, andit's like that's not how.
But they're very worried thatif I say you do what you want in
this way, that I'm then goingto fail them on doing it.

(52:42):
And I'm like, even if you do itterribly and I see that you've
learned from it, that's way morevaluable.
We learn through failure.
We learn through, you know,testing things out.
And that's where thecollaborative thing comes in,
because collaboration is aboutproblem solving.
Improvisation is all aboutproblem solving.

(53:04):
The setup for the moment isyou're going to come into a
scene with somebody else orpeople and you have to problem
solve your way through it.
Figure out, how are you goingto tell the story of what's
happening in this moment withoutknowing what comes next?
And of course, we do this allthe time.

(53:25):
You and I are doing thisliterally right now.
We didn't script out thisconversation.
We're just talking, listening,responding and going yes, oh,
and this.

So, yes.
Yeah, I love it.
Well, as we kind of wrap up, asas we wrap up, you know, kind
of.
I still want to touch a littlebit on this, you know 2022, chad
, gpt, ai.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

And so one of the things too that, like you
know, in my show I always soundvery cautious advocate.
So one of the things, too thatyou know, in my show I always
sound very cautious advocate,very cautious of because of the
word Everybody throws around thebuzzwords because they are what
sell, and you know it's like,you know, personalized learning
and doing this I was like andyou know I've had several guests
and even myself I was like, howis this personalized learning?

(54:08):
Like to me it feels like you'resiloing students again to a
Chromebook with a chatbot thatdoesn't really even know the
student, and then the thing thecommon theme is is like you just
put IDK three times on thatchatbot and they're going to
give you the right answer andthat's it.
So how is that reallypersonalized learning?
What kind of damage might we bedoing to the students in that

(54:28):
sense?
And it just seems like it'salmost a replication of what
they are already doing 30minutes per day, per subject,
doing these many questions, butthey're not really doing any
learning.
It's more of that click, do youknow, finish, reward and I just
continue.
But they sell it as thatpersonalized learning.
The other thing that kind ofconcerns me too and I've

(54:51):
recently had a conversation witha guest is that the way that
the AI is being used by teachersis still simply used as
substitution.
So if and he mentioned, he goeslook, if the traditional
worksheet worked like a handoutworked, why are we just doing
that worksheet on a computer orcreating a worksheet on the

(55:12):
computer, like there is noaugmentation of the learning?
So I want to get your thoughts.
You know, now that you're doingyour dissertation, you're doing
your research, what are yourthoughts on, you know, the
cognitive offload to AI.

Oh, I love that.
I love that term.
The cognitive offload, I think,is really the big issue is we
have to ask ourselves and thishas been true forever, right?
This is the.
It's the same issue with juststandard plagiarism Are you
offload, are you offloading theprocess, the learning, to the

(55:50):
tool?
Are you offloading yourinvolvement in the project to
something someone else?
Right?
So, if it's, if it's you need to, you know, if it's like, here's
your prompt.
I want you to be able to talkabout, uh, what you just read

(56:11):
when we read Mary Shelley'sFrankenstein.
Well, it's gone back forcenturies that somebody could
just go find a journal, you know, go find a magazine, a
newspaper, some, you knowsomething, some record and then
just handwrite.
They could even just handwriteand copy and paste something
over and present somebody else'sresponse and ideas as their own

(56:35):
, right, it's the same thing.
If that is what is happening,right, if the student is simply
taking the prompt and going tellme the answer to this so I can
turn it in Right, and at thatpoint, even if it takes less

(56:56):
time for them to get that grade,that's still a waste of their
time from my perspective.
And and so like that becomes anissue.
The other part of this that Ihave, to some degree, an even
bigger issue with is theabolitionist view of technology

(57:18):
that I have seen over my entirelife, particularly as a late X.
You know they called us Gen Yfor half a second, but I'm in
that generation when all of thisinternet technology, computers
and stuff were all new, but theykept constantly changing and so
I had to learn how to do dos, Ihad to learn how to do 3.1, I

(57:42):
had to learn how to literallydownload uh, I had to learn to
troubleshoot and downloaddrivers for things.
And then it would be like well,that no longer works with this
program, you have to use this todo this program.
And now you have to do thingsdifferently.
And the technology was never astrustworthy or consistent.

(58:03):
So I've always been healthilyskeptical, right, of what the
technology can do and been OKwith the idea of like, oh, I
have to learn a different thingin order to interact with it.
And I will tell you, like the,the kids these days don't
trouble.
Like when people talked aboutlike, oh, the kids are the tech

(58:24):
support, they're talking aboutmy generation, they were talking
about when we were kids, youknow and that.
And like the folks who are likea little you know, who are a
little younger than me, likemaybe a decade, in which it was
like mom, it's this, that andthe other.
You just do this.
And like I'm having to providetech support to kids who are
using Chromebooks, who've beenon Google Drive, there you know,

(58:47):
for years, who are like what,how do I?
I can't find it and it's likewell, did you put it in a folder
?
What's a folder, you know?
Anyway, I know I'm sort oframbling a little bit, but to
sort of bring it down and sortof simplify my, my biggest
concern around theprohibitionist view of AI and

(59:11):
technology is that most often,it's incredibly ableist, because
it's this expectation thatevery single person, every
single student, should be ableto do the same thing in exactly
the same way, regardless oftheir background, their physical

(59:33):
situation, their neurologicalstatus, any of that.
So, as somebody who does have aneurological disability known as
ADHD, who didn't get diagnoseduntil he was 44, and has PTSD
and CGTSD as a result of a lotof other external things, I am a

(59:54):
very good reader, I'm a verygood writer, but I'm incredibly
slow at both, incredibly slow atboth.
So it's not that I don't havemy own ideas.
I don't think anybody's evergoing to accuse me of not having
ideas or not having aperspective that I'm willing and
able to share.

(01:00:14):
That's never going to be thecase.
But and this is something whereI show some of my age I have
not actually engaged with the AIstuff Because I feel like it's
going to take me so long tolearn how to use it to meet my
needs, to learn how to use it tomeet my needs, but, like I see
kids actually using itappropriately and making sure

(01:00:35):
that they have their ideas puttogether, that they're writing
stuff out and then they'reputting you know, but that
they're focused on the concepts,on their understanding, their
knowledge, and then allowingusing the program to help them
figure out how they couldrephrase a sentence more
effectively, how to adjust theirgrammar, how to you know maybe

(01:01:01):
there's another word that youcan use that what they are now
offloading is the essential,non-essential work, right, the
stuff that isn't actually partof the learning but is a

(01:01:22):
necessary part of the doing.
So if you physically don't havethe physical ability to type
well, right To type effectively,having a program that can take
voice to text and be able tohelp.
You then adjust that in ways youknow where you can point to

(01:01:44):
something and say you know,being able to simply highlight
something is very different thanbeing able to type it right.
Highlight something is verydifferent than being able to
type it right.
Um, you know, and and we have,you know, we've got kids with
dyslexia.
It's not that they don'tunderstand things, it's that
they're struggling with theliteral process of dealing with
the text.

(01:02:05):
So if there's something that ishelping them ensure that what
is actually happening here andthe learning they're doing is
effective, then they should beable to use that.
And when we make everythinggetting back to the sort of
transactionalism, wheneverything is transactional,

(01:02:27):
then there's a lot lessincentive or reason for students
to see the technology asassistive and as a way of better
understanding than as opposedto a way of simply doing so that
they can get the grade thatoftentimes they feel like they

(01:02:49):
couldn't get if they just reliedon their own perspective,
because their perspectivedoesn't really matter.
Their job is simply to providethe teacher what they expect,
and if the AI can produce thething that the teacher expects,
well, there you go.

Dr. Fonz Mendoza (01:03:04):
There you go.
I love that.
And so, kind of going back alittle bit, to me it just seems
like a lot of the ed tech theysay they get a lot of feedback
from teachers, but I think notall teachers, because definitely
we know there's differentsituations around the country
and around the nation.
But going back to thattransactional aspect, I think
that many companies that are outthere that are kind of coming

(01:03:26):
out with these chatbots forlearning and everything.
To me it just seems still verypurely transactional, these
chatbots for learning andeverything.
To me it just seems still verypurely transactional.
It's like you just go in there,you do your lesson, the chatbot
says yay or nay or maybe givesyou, you know, a resource here
or there.
But my thing was is is itgiving?
For example, if there's twostudents that are studying the
exact same thing, are theygetting the exact same answers,
the exact same resources andsources and things of that sort?

(01:03:49):
But but again, just going backto that transactional piece, it
just it just feels like to me,like seeing so much tech go
through it.
I always say, like you knowwhat?
There's nothing new under thesun.
This is like you said.
You know.
I remember when they wouldassign me a book report, my mama
would drop me off at thelibrary.
I get the encyclopediabritannica, I read it and then I
would copy what's there and youreference.

(01:04:12):
Okay, internet comes out, okay,I'm getting you know everything
a lot faster.
Here are my references.
Now, with AI and things of thatsort, yes, there is some
utility on that and those things.
But for the learning aspect,that I just hope that you know,
as companies continue to growand put these products out, that
they see that it's shouldn'tmake it just purely

(01:04:33):
transactional.
There should be more learning,engagement and discourse and
things of that sort, whichsometimes I feel, you know what?
Like just no tech in theclassroom, and I'm not saying
completely remove it, but givingthat time to just simply talk,
like you said, and and figurethings out, you know.
And then, like you said, takingthose and I love the way you
said and figure things out, youknow, and then, like you said,

(01:04:55):
taking those, and I love the wayyou said it, taking those
essential non-essentials andusing that.
But the learning is stilltaking place.
You know, you, the student haslearned the content, they've
worked through it, they've,they've been part of it, and
then those non-essentials likehey, you forgot a comma here,
quotation marks here, citationhere.
There is a educator that I knowthat still has the students

(01:05:17):
work on their citations usingnote cards and that I remember
back from you know, so they'lldo note cards and everything.
And even though I told her, Iwas like hey, did you know that
they can go here in Google andthen they click cite this for me
in the Google Doc when they dothe search, and and she's like,
yeah, but you know they stillneed to know how to do it by
hand and everything, I was like,all right, you know find

(01:05:37):
balance.

Erik Parsons (01:05:38):
You know, like for how long?
You know?
My thing there is like weshould absolutely be inviting
students to do these things, andI and I do, I talk to the.
I talk to students all the timeabout, like you know, when
they're getting frustrated withworking with grammar, right, and
they're getting frustrated withbeing told that, like you've
got to check your spelling,you've got to make sure that you

(01:06:01):
know you've got yourpunctuation where it needs to be
, and all of this, and that whenwe are actively working on that
in class, that is not a time toset that over to the AI,
because what you need to knowand I love it's always been the

(01:06:22):
thing that I don't even knowwhere I got it from specifically
, it might have been one of myparents or something.

(01:06:43):
Grammar is this kind of therules that tell you the primary
way in which we can ensure thatwhat we're saying is
comprehensible to somebody elsewho we can't personally be like
hey, here's what's going on,right?
We can't clarify for somebodyif they're reading our work at a
separate time, not in front ofus, right?
That's why I like dialogue,because with dialogue I can go
oh wait, you didn't get that.
Great, let me clarify, right,but we can't do that.
So the grammar and sentencestructure and all of that

(01:07:04):
understanding what is aparticiple, what is, you know, a
conjunction, what are thesethings.
And I tell the kids I'm likeyour job is to understand how
these work enough that then,when you decide to break the
rules, you're doing so for areason, that you're doing so
with intent, because the intentis to always be better at

(01:07:28):
communicating your voice right.
And if the grammar isinhibiting that, then you go.
Nope, I'm doing it this waybecause it's going to be closer
to, it's going to help mecommunicate what I want.
But if you don't understandwhat the grammar is and how it
functions, then you're not goingto understand why, when you do

(01:07:52):
something a different way, thereader goes wait what he eats,
shoots and leaves.
You know that's a great bookEats, shoots and Leaves.
That's about.
You know grammar and where thecommas go and why we use an
Oxford comma Oxford for life.
But you know, to me therereally is this kind of issue

(01:08:17):
that we have of not taking thetime to actually explicitly talk
about why we're doing things.
We're in this mode of like.
You need to do this why?
Because we said so becausethat's what's required, right,
that's what's required, that'swhat the curriculum says you

(01:08:38):
have to do.
You have to be able to do thison this test.
So you have to do this not,this is actually important to
you so that you can, uh, havethe skills to engage in these
things.
Algebra who doesn't hate algebra?
So many people, except for,like, math nerds.
Well, I later actually likealgebra, because what algebra

(01:08:58):
does is it literally teaches youhow to solve any problem in
your life, anything, because ithelps you understand how to
compare and find relationshipsbetween things.
What are the variables?
And how do you isolate thevariable that you need to figure
out?
That's in relationships.

(01:09:19):
Even it's like, okay, what'sgoing on?
This person is here, they thinkthis, and I really like them.
And when we do this, you figureout what are the variables,
what's going on, what are youtrying to control?
What's the thing that's missing, right?
And but nobody told me thatwhen I was learning algebra.

(01:09:39):
You know, and it's that kind ofthing of like do it because I
said so, then means that ofcourse, people are going to
offload the do it because it?
Because who wants to doeverything they're told, when
they don't know why what they'rebeing told is what meaning it
has.
And the thing is, is, after youhave that time of going through

(01:10:02):
this is how the grammar andstuff works.
Then, when and this also has alot to do with, like, what is
the purpose of the particularassignment?
Sticking to sort of the writing, because this is where the
generative AI stuff really comesin when you're really sticking,
if the purpose of the writingis to show, is to explain what

(01:10:23):
you understand in the themes andideas that you're seeing in
Mary Shelley's Frankenstein,then, yes, grammar is going to
be important and noted, but weshould not be taking off points
on grammar.
Right, we should be pointing itout and going hey, remember
this, this, this and this.
What we need to be looking atis are you making coherent sense

(01:10:48):
?
Does your introduction help meunderstand where you're?
Give me a sense of where you'regoing.
Do you have a hook?
Are you catching on?
Are you looking through therubric and going I need to get
to three themes.
Right, that's the stuff that Ishould care about.
But then kids are gonna focuson the like well, how do I make
sure this is written the waythat they want and how do I make

(01:11:11):
sure I do all this and thenjust gonna put it into ai, when
what they should be doing iswriting it out as best they can
and then putting it into the AIto go, hey, can you help me
clean this up and help me findthe grammar problems?
Then I'm going to give them azero and I'm like, are you

(01:11:33):
insane?
Because you know and again thisgets back to the ableism
Because there are kids who forwhom that becomes this thing
that is not essential to theassignment becomes the thing
that you're saying well, youhave to have this right too.
And it's like well, let themhave correction, let them bring

(01:11:58):
it to an editor, let the AI bean editor that is helping them,
and with the idea that then yougo hey, this phrasing doesn't
sound like your voice, right.
So you know, I want you to liketry and figure this out For
anybody who's listening rightnow.
By the way, I think my favoriteperson's commentary on AI in the

(01:12:18):
English classroom is Ms Gibsonon TikTok.
She's really only on there.
I believe she's on threadspersonally, but like, just like,
that's where she does her stuff.
She is an absolute magic andjoy and she went really big.
If you go back, she's got awhole playlist of, like her
commentary on AI and sheimmediately here she's been

(01:12:41):
teaching for 30 years orsomething like that and she
immediately was like, well, thisis the thing that's going to
happen, so I'm going to have tobring it into my class, talk to
my students.
We're going to have to figureout how does this work, where
does it go?
How do we not use it?
How do we use it?
And, like one of the I love theher story that we talked about.
One of the first things that shepointed out that I was like,

(01:13:02):
yes, is she literally did havethe students.
She gave them the prompt andsaid I want you to put this.
I want you to here's twoprompts.
One of these you're going towrite on your own and the other
you're just going to put in theAI, see what it gives you and
put it over here.
Now you're going to tradepapers and I want your partner

(01:13:27):
to tell you which one they thinksounds more like you.
And in one lesson, in one day,she managed to convey the
concept of voice, which issomething that she has struggled
to get students.
I mean, it'd take all year forher to be like no, you have to
get your voice in there.
When I read something, I want toknow that it's you and I want
to know that this is yourperspective and is coming from

(01:13:50):
this unique, idiosyncratic place.
From this unique, idiosyncraticplace and AI gave that so
quickly because it's like, well,if you dump it in here and you
give it to somebody, they gothis ain't you.
I want to hear what you have tosay.
It's you know, and it puts theimportance on that individual's
agency.
Right, it puts the importanceon I don't care what the AI has

(01:14:13):
to say, I care what you have tosay.
Is it going to be perfect?
I hope not, because if it'sperfect, then I've just wasted
your time and mine.
Right, because you're notlearning anything.
You're not going from a placeof not knowing to knowing
something more right?
A professor of mine said in aclass on assessment it's when

(01:14:34):
you really think about it.
If you get 100% on a test, anyformative test, that test is now
useless.
That test gives the student andthe teacher no real data.
What it says is this studentknows all the things you expect
them to know at this point.
It doesn't tell you what theyneed to know.

(01:14:56):
It doesn't tell you what's nextand it doesn't tell you where
they are not quite making theconceptual connections.
So getting a C on a formativetest is actually actually more
valuable, actually genuinelymore valuable, actually
genuinely more valuable, becauseit now gives you information

(01:15:20):
from you know.
Here's the ed researcher comingthrough.
It gives us information to workwith, right.
It tells us oh, this is howmuch you do understand.
This is stuff you really dohave understood.
Here are the things that you'renot quite on, and here's
something that, like you haven't, that that we need to, like go
back and start at the beginningwith.

(01:15:40):
As a teacher, that's a gift,and as a student, that's a gift,
because how many times do you,I mean, and you've had this
experience where you seeteachers or you end up having to
start over from the beginningand just review everything that
you just did and then do anotherreview test to be like, do you

(01:16:02):
get it now until everybody gets?
You know all the things youknow, and so it's like I want to
know what I actually need toreview and again.
So this also goes to one morething about testing and
transactionalism.
I constantly something thatbreaks my heart is students will

(01:16:23):
turn in a test where they justhaven't even tried to answer
most of it because they assumethey're going to fail it.
Right, they assume.
They look at it, they'reintimidated, they go I don't get
this well enough, I'm going tofail this.
Why would I put in the effortto put in a wrong answer, right?

(01:16:48):
So then they turn in thesemostly empty tests because
they've gone.
Well, I am not going to get thegrade that I need, so I'm not
going to spend the time that I'mthat I have to take this test.
Like you know, they're given 90minutes to do a test and they
turn it in in 15 with most of itincomplete, and I go no, you

(01:17:11):
should take this back and keepworking on it.
And they're like I don't knowit.
I'm like well, then, try yourbest answer, take a guess, put
something.
The only answer you, the onlytruly incorrect answer on a test
, is the one you don't give.
The only incorrect answer yougive on a test, the only truly
useless answer you give, is theone that you don't give, is when

(01:17:34):
you leave it blank, because ifyou at least attempt to write
what you know, it comes back tothat like what do you?
What do you already know?
What are we building on?
What do you actually?
What sort of understanding doyou have?
Now I have something to workwith, but if I have a bunch of
kids who go, who go I didquestion one, I'm pretty sure I
got it wrong.

(01:17:55):
I'm not going to do the rest,but now it's like well, I guess
I have to start and completelydo everything over again with
them.
And half the time they're going.
Well, yeah, I already know that.
Why are we doing this again andit's like well, you showed, you
told me that you didn't know anyof this, but where's the
incentive for them to try ifeverything's about the grade and

(01:18:21):
not about the feedback that thegrade represents?

Nice, excellent.
Well, we've definitely covereda lot today, eric, and I really
appreciate it, because thisdefinitely is eye-opening and it
really ties into a lot to theresearch that I've been doing,
and so I'm very thankful forthat that you got to share.
But also just some greatinsight, you know, at least for
our listeners, for educators orreally much anybody that listens
to our podcast for our audienceto understand, you know, just

(01:18:48):
the learning process and the waythat we do see things.
Maybe they never get this typeof feedback, and so it's great
to hear this, and it's alsorefreshing to hear a lot of what
you're saying that I have beenable to do without me knowing or
getting into that theory justyet.
You know, and now looking back,I'm like, oh man, I totally get
it, and so definitely I lovethat our kind of worlds kind of

(01:19:12):
merge and we do have a lot ofcommonality in that, because
there definitely needs to bemore discourse on this and I
that's why I really appreciatewhat you put out on social media
and all that content.
So, for our audience members,please make sure that you follow
Eric, I'll make sure and linkthat information in the show
notes too as well.
And just you know again, he'sgreat at answering any questions

(01:19:34):
you have.
He will definitely go there, soplease make sure that you ask
away.
But, eric, before we wrap up, Ialways love to end the show
with the last three questions.
So here we go.
So, as we know, every superherohas kind of a weakness or a
pain point.
So for Superman, edu Kryptonitewas his weakness.
So I want to ask you, eric, inthe current state of education,

(01:19:56):
what would you say is yourcurrent edu-kryptonite?

Hierarchical authoritarianism in education,
positionally above or belowsomeone else in some way, and
that therefore your job, youknow, if you're at the top, it's
your job to give commands, togive instructions to this person

(01:20:25):
, whose job is to giveinstructions to this person, etc
.
Which leads to this verytransactional like I tell you
what to do, you do the thingbecause I've asked you to do it.
And then and the reason I'mtelling you to do this is
because the principal said Ihave to do it because the school
board said we're bought thiscurriculum, so I have to deliver

(01:20:47):
this content, and here's thispacing guide that I have to do
and then the principal's likewell, yeah, but I have to make
all the teachers do all this.
And then the superintendent'slike well, but the state testing
standards say we have to dothis in the curriculum that
we've purchased.
That aligns with this.
So you know, I would say thatcomes maybe down to like the
idea of the prepackagedcurriculum.

(01:21:08):
I think the real kryptonite forme is the very concept that
there is a top-down approach tohow learning happens and that
who's an authority, not who'sauthoritative, but who is an

(01:21:32):
authority over what happens now,what we're doing, because then
we don't collaborate, wede-socialize the process and
yeah, and I guess the other oneis the people who think that
well, at a certain point youhave to get serious.
At the collegiate level, at thedoctoral level, we should be

(01:21:54):
playing.
We should be engaged in playand creativity and trying new
things, falling flat on our face, laughing at ourselves and
getting up and trying again andunderstanding that there is so
much to be done by playingaround and going I don't know
everything.
Great, let's know more, let'sfigure something else out.

Love it.
Great answer, I love it.
All right.
Question number two If youcould have a billboard with
anything on it, what would it beand why?

Oh, I might say it says embrace, uncertainty, the
reason being and a link to like.
Let me explain more.
But I think one of the biggestproblems is that everybody wants
to be sure about everything andthat we get very anxious.

(01:22:50):
This comes back to the gradingthing right, the I if I don't
think I'm going to get thisgrade, then I'm not going to do
it right.
And the I have to deliver thiscurriculum, so that means I have
to do X, y, z, this is thelesson plan, this is every
minute of the day that I'm doing, and as long as I do that, then

(01:23:12):
I'll get this.
And we don't leave space fordiscovery, which discovery only
comes from a place ofuncertainty.
And the other thing that I sayabout it and this is more like
personal, metaphysical,emotional end of things,
especially when times areincredibly complex and hard and

(01:23:32):
the world around you feels sodifficult to navigate.
When we think about, oftentimeswe are told that it's like well
, we don't know what's going tohappen and so we should be
afraid of that.
But on the same notion, I wouldsay that when you are in

(01:23:54):
despair, despair is not aboutuncertainty, despair is
certainty.
Despair is that point when wegive up and we go well, it's bad
, it's never going to be better,it is this way.
What I know is all that I'mever going to know and I can't
possibly learn anything new, Ican't possibly become any

(01:24:17):
different, and it's just bad andit will never be better.
That is certainty.
And yet people are so afraid ofnot knowing what comes next,
instead of going.
But by doing what's next, byexploring, then I get to grow, I
get to add, I get to find thething I don't already know.

(01:24:40):
Right.
And the other big part is andyou can't have hope without
uncertainty, and hope is whatyou need when things are really
really hard.
You need hope.
Hope is what brings us together, hope is what leads us and
energizes us to move forward inspite of our reservations, in

(01:25:04):
spite of our anxiety.
But hope doesn't exist unlessthere's space for uncertainty,
the not knowing, because if weknew, we wouldn't need hope.

Excellent, Great Gilbert, I love it.
And just great explanation.
Thank you so much for that.
All right.
Last question is if you couldtrade places with a single
person for a day, who would thatbe and why?

That's so hard.
You know it's crazy.
I think I would literally want,I'd try to build a cohort of
people who are as far away frommy experience as possible, who

(01:25:57):
you know just by where they are,who they are, their background,
their ethnicity, etc.
You know the language theyspeak, etc.
As long as I would have theability to function and have
some sense of their experience.
I would love that and I'd liketo.
Not I don't want to pick thatperson.
I want there to be people outthere.

(01:26:18):
I'd want them to volunteer, totrade with me and to be able to
quite literally step intosomebody's shoes who's as
different in their experienceand what have you as possible so
that I can?
It would get.
Let me have this opportunity toliterally get into the head of

(01:26:40):
someone else.
Who, who, whose perspective is,offers endless novelty, endless
newness to my experience.

I love that.
That's actually a great answer,very unique.
I think that's probably themost unique answer that I
received for this question.
You know, normally somebodywill have it just like a
specific person, but I love thisidea.
It's like why, and again, Ijust leave the question out
there.
But I love the fact that youknow it's not like it wasn't a
purely transactional question,like I'm just going to pick one
person.
No, it's like Eric did Ericthings and he said this is what

(01:27:12):
I want and I love it.
This is wonderful, eric.
Well, thank you so much, eric.
I really appreciate all theknowledge gems that you share.
This was an amazingconversation and definitely is a
bucket fulling conversation forme too, as well, and for all
our audience members.
I know that they definitelygained a lot from all of your
shares.
So, for all our audiencemembers, thank you so much for

(01:27:34):
checking out this episode.
Please make sure you visit ourwebsite to check out the other
330 episodes.
All right, that we've done overfive years where I promise you,
you will find amazing educatorslike Eric.
You're going to find amazingprofessionals, teachers, all
sorts and I promise you you'regoing to find some knowledge
nuggets there that you cansprinkle on to what you are

(01:27:56):
already doing great.
So thank you, as always, forall of your support, and I want
to give a big shout out to oursponsors, book Creator, eduaid
and Yellowdig.
Thank you so much for believingin our mission and allowing us
to bring these episodes andagain continue to help our
education space, continue togrow.
So, my friends, until next time, don't forget, stay techie.

(01:28:16):
Thank you.

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