October 13, 2025 • 58 mins
Episode 339: Merissa Sadler-Holder | Teaching with Machines
In this episode of My EdTech Life, Dr. Fonz Mendoza talks with Merissa Sadler-Holder, founder of Teaching with Machines. Merissa shares her journey from French teacher to AI consultant and shows how educators can embrace AI without losing their voice, creativity, or purpose.
They discuss what human-centered AI really means in the classroom, how to build meaningful professional development, and ways to keep teaching focused on people instead of platforms.
Merissa also breaks down her AI Coherence Cycle, explains why teachers should stop chasing every new tool, and highlights the power of authenticity in a world full of automation.
This episode will help you rethink AI in education and remind you that the real value is you.
Timestamps
00:00 — Intro & Sponsors
01:00 — Meet Merissa Sadler-Holder
03:00 — From French Teacher to Teaching with Machines
06:00 — The Aha Moment: Seeing AI’s Potential
10:00 — What Human-Centered AI Really Means
14:00 — Helping Students Find Their Authentic Voice
20:00 — The AI Coherence Cycle Explained
24:00 — Making PD Meaningful and Ongoing
28:00 — Avoiding the “Shiny Tool” Trap
33:00 — Ethics, Data Privacy & District Challenges
36:00 — Involving Parents and Communities
38:00 — Teaching is Messy—And That’s Good
41:00 — Preview: Speaking at EdTech Week NYC
44:00 — The Future of Teacher-Built Tools
49:00 — The Value is YOU
55:00 — Closing Thoughts + Stay Techie
Connect with Merissa
Website: teachingwithmachines.com
Special Thanks to Our Sponsors
Huge thanks to Book Creator, Eduaide.AI, and Yellowdig for supporting our mission to amplify educator voices and spark meaningful conversations about the future of learning.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (00:11):
Hello, everybody, and welcome to
another great episode of My EdTech Life.
Thank you so much for joiningus on this wonderful day.
And wherever it is that you'rejoining us from around the
world, thank you as always forall of your support.
As always, we appreciate allthe likes, the shares, the
follows.
Thank you so much forinteracting with our content,
for your messages, and just foryour overall listenership.
(00:34):
Thank you.
It really means the world to usthat we can bring a great
quality podcast for you tocontinue to learn.
And that's our goal to makesure that we continue to give
you conversations that'll helpus continue to grow.
And before we dive in, Idefinitely want to thank our
wonderful sponsors.
Thank you so much to BookCreator, Eduaid, and Yellowdig
(00:56):
for sponsoring our show.
Without you and without youbelieving in our mission, we
wouldn't be doing what we'redoing.
So thank you so much for thatsupport.
And if you're interested inbeing a sponsor, please feel
free to reach out to us and wecan definitely set that up.
But I am excited about today.
Uh today's guest is somebodythat I have been following for a
(01:18):
very long time.
And I have just seen not justher account, but just her and
this glow-up.
She's been doing so many greatthings, and she's going to tell
us about some exciting thingsthat are happening that are
coming soon.
But she has been talking notonly at school districts, she'll
participate, you know, atStanford University.
(01:40):
She's working with so manypeople in so many different ways
and talking to them about AI.
So I am excited to welcome tothe show our wonderful guest
today, Marissa Sadler Holder.
Thank you so much for joiningus this evening.
How are you, Marissa?
Merissa Sadler-Holder (01:59):
I'm great.
I'm so excited to be here.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (02:01):
Well, I am excited to have you here.
It was great just talking inthe pre-show, just getting to
just the way that we'veconnected and we've connected on
LinkedIn and you know, for afor a good while now.
And obviously, uh we connectwith the same circles as far as
AI, AI and educationconversations and so on.
So it's just been great to seeyour input.
(02:24):
It's been great, like Imentioned, seeing your journey
and the wonderful opportunitiesthat you have had in helping
educators and also just bringingyour knowledge to, like I
mentioned, wonderful places.
I know Stanford, you know, andyou've got some great things
coming up, but I'll make I'lllet you announce that.
But I'm really excited aboutthat for you.
But before we dive in into ourconversation, Marissa, for any
(02:47):
of our audience members that arelistening at this very moment
that may not be familiar withyour work just yet, can you give
us a little bit of backgroundand what your context is within
the education ed tech space?
Merissa Sadler-Holder (03:02):
Yeah, sure.
So um I have a background inteaching.
Uh 13 years, I was actually aFrench teacher.
And during COVID, I hopped intogetting um a master's in um
instructional design andtechnology for education.
And I just I really dived in.
(03:22):
I've always been one of thosepeople who like to tinker with
education and tinker withtechnology and see where there's
an intersection there.
And um after COVID, you know, Ijust I was kind of feeling like
I wanted to do something withthe two together.
And, you know, lo and behold, Imean, it kind of just happened
(03:43):
with AI kind of being open tothe masses.
And I thought, oh my gosh, thisis, you know, this is gonna
make a wave in education.
I think this is something thatI can dive into.
And educators are, you know,gonna be looking for help.
And um, so I kind of justdecided to go ahead and create
teaching with machines, which isreally about helping educators
(04:06):
kind of learn about these newtechnologies that are out there,
see how they can apply theirexpertise to this technology and
see what they can create.
And um, my ultimate goal withteaching with machines is to
really have the teacher um feelempowered and excited, kind of
(04:26):
like that new shot in the arm ineducation that we all kind of
need to get us excited aboutwhat we're doing again.
And um I speak a lot about AIand education, the integration.
Um, I've uh work with schoolsand uh I worked with Orange
County Department of Educationas well as an AI consultant and
(04:49):
speak at Stanford.
I I am speaking at conferences,and yeah, that's kind of what
I'm doing right now.
And again, like it's all aboutjust sharing, going out there,
learning the thing, and thensharing whatever I learn.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (05:02):
Yeah, and that's great.
And I, you know, one of thethings that I love too that you
mentioned is, you know,empowering teachers.
And as we know, you know, we'veseen so many things, you know,
in the news, how things havechanged in education and so on.
And, you know, it's veryimportant that we do help
support our educators in everywhich way possible, you know,
(05:23):
from pedagogy to including thetech in pedagogy and finding
that balance.
And so one of the things that Ilove uh, you know, following
your page and seeing um teachingwith machines, which we will
make sure that we link in theshow notes, guys, so you can go
ahead and visit Marissa's page,but how important that
technology is, but it will nevercompare to the impact that
(05:45):
teachers have.
And I think that that's soimportant that you not only help
teachers, you know, learn, likeyou mentioned, a new
technology.
And and I don't know, we canstill say relatively new, even
though I mean, since November2022, we're already headed to
November 2025, and we've seenhow it has evolved.
But I think that that'ssomething that is great, and
(06:06):
it's something that is gonna becontinuous because as the tech
changes, as the tech progresses,there's still gonna have to be
uh people such as yourself,myself, and many of the guests
that I've had on the show to beable to share their experiences
with educators to help them aswe continue to move forward.
So that's something that's veryexciting.
(06:28):
So I want to ask you, uh,Marissa, well, when was it that
you made that jump or thatchoice to go from educator to
say, hey, I'm gonna go ahead andjust go all in on teaching with
machines?
What was that aha spark momentfor you?
Gosh.
Merissa Sadler-Holder (06:48):
I don't know.
I sometimes I go, am I crazyfor even to because you know the
thing is, is it really is it'sa huge career shift, you know.
13 years in my position, andyou know, it's a stable position
in a great high school.
And to jump into this, it was abig decision.
(07:09):
But like one of my friendssaid, you know, it's now or
never, you know, I mean, this isthis is this moment.
And if you can help educatorskind of navigate this so they
can in turn help their studentsnavigate this, this is the time.
This is the only moment in timeyou can do that, you know.
And so I just I did it.
(07:32):
But you know, the funny thingis is that when I when I left
the profession and I startedexploring what I could be doing,
none of the jobs that I wantedto do existed.
And so I kind of just said, allright, well, I guess I'll
create teaching with machines soI have something that I can put
on my resume to say that I'mdoing something.
(07:54):
But I honestly, I ended upsubbing.
I ended up subbing for almost ayear while I built out teaching
with machines.
And um through that, it was ahumbling experience.
It was a very interestingexperience.
It is one that allowed meinsight into other classrooms
than my own experience, whichwas incredible.
(08:16):
And also the ability to haveconversations with students who
have no fear of sharing theirinsight or input on how they use
this technology.
Um, there's no repercussions,right, with a sub.
So um I was able to do a littlerecon during that subbing
(08:37):
situation.
But, you know, as I progressedand I continued, and I have a
weekly newsletter that I justkept on putting out, sharing
what I've learned.
Um, I think part of it too isthat while I saw this as, I
mean, I I tell this storybasically, and it's the moment I
realized that they neededsomebody out there, and not just
(08:59):
myself, but there's many, manypeople too.
But this idea of like I wassitting down and I was writing
an email in response to kind of,you know, your typical angry
parent email, if you will.
And I was done.
I mean, it was the end of theday, it was like in April.
And my friend said, I don'tthink you should respond to that
(09:19):
email right now, because youknow, I was a little, you know,
heated or something.
And so um, I said, Okay, Iwon't.
She's like, But I think youshould run it through Chat GPT
and adjust it, you know.
And so I did, and I just kindof sat back and was just like,
oh gosh, oh, okay.
This is not a technology thatis just gonna be something that
(09:43):
we just uh simply adapt to, butrather will have a profound
impact on education.
Um, especially, you know, likepart of the thing is is like I
taught French and GoogleTranslate has had a huge impact
on how we do assessments, how weteach in language classes, and
(10:05):
we're still struggling withthat, many of us, and it's been
15 years, you know.
So it's one of the, or maybe10, I'm sorry.
Um, but I just kept onthinking, okay, this is where
teachers are gonna need supporton the outside.
Now, I started following you,which was amazing on LinkedIn,
and I quickly realized there'sjust not a lot of teachers on
(10:27):
LinkedIn, you know, um, a lot ofadmin, maybe, um, you know,
just kind of thought leaders,but like the chalk in hand
teacher, just there's no need tokind of have that profile on
LinkedIn because we don't use itto network, right?
So what's the point?
It, you know, and so I justkind of, you know, I started
(10:50):
getting on LinkedIn and Irealized that there's a need to
make sure that the teacher voiceis amplified in these spaces
where there are people who aremaking decisions, thought
leaders who are giving theiropinions on where education is
going.
I just wanted to make sure thatthe chalk in hand teacher has
somebody who can amplify theirvoice out into these spaces to
(11:12):
make sure that they are beingheard.
Um, and so that's kind of thedecision I made.
And I it's been an amazingexperience.
It's been a journey, it's beenups and downs, of course, but
it's been, it's been a lot offun.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (11:27):
Yeah.
And yeah, I've seen, like Isaid, seeing you, like I said,
uh beautiful glow up.
And I always tell my friends,like, I see you, like I see the
great things, and it just getsme so excited, you know, that
people within the space arecontinuing to grow and getting
all these opportunities and soon.
And so just to see you, andfrom when, you know, we first
(11:48):
started connecting on LinkedInto see what you're doing.
And I'm like, oh my gosh, lookat what Marissa's doing now, and
look at where she's at, andlook at where she's headed and
all those opportunities.
I think that's something that'svaluable too, in the sense that
you're amplifying and you'realso not only are you amplifying
your experience, but you likeyou mentioned, it's you're
amplifying the voice of thoseeducators too, as well.
(12:09):
Like you're bringing theirvoices to the table because
oftentimes, you know,stakeholders usually are the
ones that say, well, we're theone, the decision makers up at
the top, but we don't includethe actual users within those
conversations as well.
And I think that's somethingthat's very important.
But I want to kind of shift up,you know, a little bit now
because I know that we talk alittle a lot about this, and I
(12:32):
know I've seen it on LinkedIn somuch, and it's been something
that I've seen for the pastcouple of years.
Well, I and I know say a coupleof years, but mainly maybe
within the last year, year and ahalf, there's a strong push,
and we're always going andtalking about human-centered AI
professional development.
(12:53):
So, with your experience inprofessional development, and of
course, using that phrase,human-centered AI professional
development, what doeshuman-centered mean to Marissa,
especially, especially in aworld where it just seems like
every AI tool seems to be thestar or that magic bullet, and
(13:15):
we kind of forget about thathuman aspect.
So tell me a little bit abouthow you find that balance and
how you really put that thehuman first.
Merissa Sadler-Holder (13:55):
Yeah, um I have this belief about when we
use AI that really AI should bean extension of your own
expertise.
And it should reflect um yourvoice.
And so when it's not going toreplace, we're not going to put
(14:16):
out there or use it for thingsthat we wouldn't normally know
what to do and how to do.
You know, I think it's veryimportant that, because I think
a lot of us and the big fear andthat the thing that nobody
really talks about.
And I mean, whether you're anartist, whether you are a
teacher or another profession,we all are sitting here going,
(14:38):
if AI can do what I do, thenwhat value do I bring?
And it's very, it's it's a it'sone of those things we don't,
we don't talk about it, butthat's the fear.
That's what's driving the fear.
And I think when we sit downand we say, okay, what value do
(14:59):
I bring?
Well, you know, the the AIcannot do anything without your
direction.
So if it is something that isreflecting your input, is
reflecting your expertise, thenwe have much more control over
the AI than we really are, we wereally think we do, right?
So um that and and and I telllike when I'm doing sessions
(15:24):
with students, even I have thisconversation about making sure
that you know, there's theseskills that we need to develop
in this AI world.
And and then they're they'reyou know, hard and fast skills
that we've been trying to dofor, you know, impart on them
and you know, critical thinking,creativity, all of those
(15:44):
things, right?
And collaboration.
But one of the ones and in kindof tapping into like the
literary world or you know, theEnglish teacher's world is
developing that authentic voice.
And what does that look likefor you?
Because you know what?
There's only one of you.
You only get to develop thatauthentic voice.
(16:06):
Nothing else can do that exceptfor you.
And in a world where it'sbecoming more and more um
inundated with AI andartificially created things,
having that authentic voice thatcannot be duplicated and
replicated is yours.
And um really work ondeveloping that.
(16:29):
Can you use AI to help youdevelop it?
Yes, but it will never replaceit.
And I think that is soimportant, especially, and I
don't know if you've been seeingthis either, but like when
we're on TikTok or we're lookingat social media, I swear
there's been like a shift fromgoing away from the curated
(16:50):
selfies and the curated contentperfectly.
Everybody's life is perfect,but we know, you know, behind
the scenes it's not perfect,right?
Whereas the more popularcontent creators are coming in
disheveled, looking like anormal, you know, everyday human
person and telling their storybecause they're captivating this
authentic voice.
(17:11):
And we are so drawn to it andwe have such a need for it that
I think we're gonna want toreally start developing that
even more.
And I think it's gonna bereally important for our
students' future.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (17:23):
Yes.
No, I and one of the thingsthat you that I love that you
mentioned is that authenticvoice.
There's only one of you in thisworld, and we really want to
hear your voice, your thoughts.
And like, you know, like youmentioned, there are many tools
that are out there that canhelp, you know, at least, you
know, work through your messageor what you're trying to say and
(17:43):
things of that sort.
But there's also a way ofdelivery that is you, that is
the way that your true voicereally comes out.
And like you mentioned, in aworld that is becoming very
synthetic very quickly, becausenow with uh Sora 2 dropping and
all of these videos, now you'vegot that video aspect of it.
(18:06):
Uh, obviously, you know, withthe large language models and so
on.
So I do agree with you that nowit's people want to see that
authenticity, who you reallyare.
And yes, you you do notice thatshift where, you know, the
videos are not as overproducedas they once were.
You know, people are coming injust being more natural because
(18:27):
that's what people are craving.
They're craving, they arewanting, you know, that
authentic voice.
And uh kind of going along thatline, I kind of wanted to
share, and I know I've done itin another episode, but it's
very, you know, pertinent towhat we're talking about,
especially with voice, where agood friend of mine, she also
does speaking engagements and soon.
(18:48):
And, you know, obviously withthe world of of LLMs and uh, you
know, creating presentations isa lot easier, a lot quicker.
You kind of give it your ideaand it'll go ahead and uh pop
something out for you.
So she said that she was gonnado a little keynote and she
said, Man, I already had thispresentation, you know, done,
(19:11):
you know, a month ago andeverything like that.
But of course, with the use ofAI and and helping in creating
that.
But she said that when she waspresenting, even though she has
that content knowledge, she justfelt like this isn't me, like
this isn't really my voice, andso on.
(19:31):
So she actually said, like, I'mgonna take a little break from
all of this a little bit andjust kind of see, like, like
kind of guess you find yourselfagain, because I think
oftentimes too, you do also seethat side of videos and content
where you can see that it isvery heavily dependent on LLMs.
And sometimes like you couldyou can kind of pick it out, you
(19:53):
know, especially if we use itand so on, you can kind of pick
it out.
And sometimes it's like, uh,I'll just kind of scroll right
past it.
And uh like then I'll I seesomebody that maybe has a lot of
spelling errors or somethinglike that.
And I'm like, ooh, I want tosee that, I want to read that,
you know, because it just feelslike like, oh, this is authentic
and stuff like that.
So I I really like that yousaid that you really help
(20:14):
teachers also see that, thatthere's only one of you and it's
your voice, but also that youwork with students on that.
And I think that's somethingthat's very important.
And as you know, like now withthe release of Sora and the way
that the technology is gettingbetter and better, you know, it
just seems like every weekthere's some kind of new
improvement, there's some newmodel that's coming out, and you
(20:34):
really want to help yourstudents understand and
critically think about theseoutputs and critically think
about these uh large languagemodels as well.
But kind of going back to thework that you do with schools,
Marissa, I want to ask you inyour experience too, as well,
you know, a lot of schools thatuh are having that maybe trying
(21:41):
uh find having a hard timereconciling maybe the the great
use of AI, the use case of it,but maybe also now battling with
that data privacy and ethics,you know, those barriers.
What are some things that youmay have seen or some best
practices that you've seen, youknow, along your travels within
(22:02):
school districts?
And what might be somesuggestions that you yourself
too have come with that youmight be able to share with
educators or districts?
Merissa Sadler-Holder (22:11):
Yeah, so there's two things.
So there's the AI uh coherencecycle, and I'll tell you about
that in a second.
But first and foremost, I feellike everybody has to go through
their own journey with itbefore they can actually address
any of that, right?
Um, they have to first learnabout it.
We have to, we have to modelthose critical thinking and
(22:32):
excitement and innovation.
So first learning and beinglifelong learners is looking
into that.
Um, I think a lot of timesschools, given the time that
they're given, they just, youknow, kind of want to front load
all of this onto educators.
And, you know, here's your oneand a half hours, two hour
(22:53):
training, and then that's it.
And then, you know, expectgreatness.
And the thing is, is, you know,we don't do that to our
students.
We get fired if we try doingthat, you know, moving on to the
next lesson.
But um I think um it's thisidea that, you know, you have to
have two light bulbs that gooff.
And I'm not gonna swear,although I do say it in my head.
(23:15):
The first light bulb is like,oh, this is cool.
This can do this for me.
This is amazing.
And then the it's the oh beeplight bulb.
The second light bulb is whereit's like, oh, this is going to
impact.
This is going to do XYZ.
This is going to affect thethings that I do and how my
students do things, how myschool could possibly do things.
(23:36):
There is going to be the ohbeep light bulb that has to go
off.
And we have to have space to beable to do both.
The first one has to happenbefore the second one happens.
And then we can startaddressing those really big
picture ideas and going afterhow this can be done ethically,
safely, um, and with intention.
(23:58):
Now, what I've seen a lot ofsuccess in working with schools
is the AI coherence cycle that Ialso work with Danelle Almaras.
And what we've created withthis cycle is let's not, you
know, we kind of modeled it offof what business, successful
(24:19):
businesses have done tointegrate AI.
And instead of sitting downwith their employers and our
employees and saying, here, godo a two-hour training and then
off you go, what they first dowith AI is say, what's on fire?
Where are we bleeding?
What is going on?
Because we can't possibly thinkof anything else until we
(24:39):
address those huge, hugechallenges that we have.
And I think if we with this AIcoherence cycle, it's kind of
doing the same model.
It's saying, what are ourbiggest challenges right now?
What are some initiatives thatwe have to do to address?
You know, AI is the last thingon my mind when it comes to all
(25:01):
of this.
But instead, when we look atthese big challenges we have and
say, where can AI possibly comeand help me with these things?
Then we're really leveragingthe tool.
And along with that comeslearning and exploration of the
tool and professionaldevelopment.
(25:23):
But now we're doing that firstlight bulb.
Oh, hey, this can help me withthings, you know, and then
you're getting the professionaldevelopment in a way that is not
here, let me sit you down fortwo hours.
It's cyclical, it keeps ongoing.
And we're addressing thechallenges that we have at hand.
And I think that's going to bemore reflective of how we're
going to be seeing AI ineducation in the future.
(25:45):
But um, I I've seen somesuccess with it.
I will tell you the I workedwith a school that decided to do
that probably mid-year, um,where we just decided to focus
on getting their curriculum ummapped.
And we had about 30% of thestaff who had the curriculum map
(26:08):
and uploaded onto a um, what isit, like a program that
documents it, right?
And this was a part of theiraccreditation process.
Okay.
And they really wanted to getit done.
By like two months afterleveraging AI and working with
teachers, we had 80% of theteachers completed with all of
their curriculum mapped.
And it's just like, look, it'syour expertise that did this
(26:30):
with this tool.
This is how we could beaddressing and using and
leveraging AI.
It doesn't always have to be asit-down, here's your two-day,
you know, professionaldevelopment.
And along with that comeslearning about the limitations.
And that's where making sureyou're using it ethically,
that's why professionaldevelopment is important.
(26:52):
So we we are careful and we'reprotecting ourselves, we're
protecting our students, andwe're protecting our learning
community.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (26:58):
I love that.
And you know, that actuallycovers a lot of things that I
wanted to ask as a follow-upbecause as we know, you know,
with tools like the tools thatare out there now, the plethora
of platforms that we haveavailable, sometimes it's like,
hey, we just want the next shinytool.
And we just want it because wewant to do this faster, as
(27:20):
opposed to, okay, how can wereimagine what we're learning
with these tools and maybe takeit to that next level?
And I know uh I'm a big fan ofthe Samar model, you know, the
substitution, augmentation,modification, and redefinition.
So oftentimes what we normallysee, and initially, you know,
with as with any adoption,sometimes you'll get that
(27:40):
substitution factor of, well,before I used to do handouts,
well, now I can use somethinglike Kami that I can annotate
and I can do the same thing, youknow, digitally.
But then also, what else can wedo to take that and augment
what can what are some thingsthat we couldn't do before that
we're able to do there and thenmodify and then redefine?
(28:02):
And sometimes I feel that manytimes, as quick as we are,
sometimes as educators, we justwant the next shiny thing and we
just kind of say, ah, okay.
And then when it loses its loreand its glamour, it's like, all
right, let's move on to thenext thing because we we just
we're we're like that.
We get so excited and we wantto try those things.
But I think with this, evenwith the steps that you
(28:24):
described, having the teachersbeing able to work through it as
they're working there, it's notonly going to be something
that's gonna help them see thatthey can do their work more
efficiently, but also be moreeffective and also think of new
ways that they can enhance thoselessons as they're putting
their curriculums together andthinking, like, wow, like this
(28:44):
is something that I would havenever been able to do before.
And now I can enhance thoselessons for my students.
So that is great that youshared all of that because I
think that that really playswell into this.
And so, my next question to youthough, like I mentioned, as
educators, we get so excited andwe want to use the next tool
because we see what's hot uhthat's trending on, you know, on
(29:07):
educator um TikTok or onwhether it's uh X or Instagram
and so on.
So, as we know, you know,there's a lot of hype that gets
put onto a lot of these tools.
So, how do you help uhadministrators discern what
would be a good tool versussomething that might just be
(29:29):
snake oil?
Merissa Sadler-Holder (29:31):
Oh my gosh.
Um I I think we always shouldbe kind of centered on the
effectiveness, right?
Because there's a lot of thesetools out there.
And you do, first of all, youhave to give them time to
explore the tools to see if theyare effective.
And I think what I like to tellthe administrators is like just
(29:56):
pick pick three.
You don't need to pick, youknow, the 500 that are out
there, just pick three and justget good at it.
Get good at it.
And once you're done gettinggood at it, share out what it is
that you did with it.
Make sure you're creating thatcommunity of innovation and
(30:17):
sharing and excitement so peoplecan actually kind of bring that
PLC alive, if you will, right?
I don't, I mean a PLC could bea dirty word for some people,
your listeners.
I don't know, but it's thatidea where it's like in the true
sense of the learningcommunity, right?
So um I I I think just, youknow, you don't, I think it's
(30:42):
very important that you don'thave to know everything all at
once.
And I think as educators,that's really, really hard for
us because we've always beentold that the value we bring is
the expertise in the XYZsubject.
We are expected to know it all.
(31:03):
And the fact of the matter is,is that we don't.
And we're all exploring andwe're all learning and we're all
exploring this new technology.
So pick three, good, good.
At it, get some data back fromyou know the users, see how
they're doing with it, see whatthey like, what they don't like,
and then you can, you know,kind of continue on.
(31:25):
But again, you have to createthis community of like, is this
effective?
And I'm a big uh believer inteaching educators how to fish
versus go to the market andreally kind of get into the
weeds.
How is this tool working?
(31:45):
So in the future, if I'm simplyusing a tool that is safe and
approved by our school, that ifI know how to use it and I know
how to manipulate the tool for acertain output, I don't need
XYZ tool over there.
I don't need this, you know,555th tool that's out on the
(32:08):
market, right?
Like I just need my ownintelligence.
I think I think that's what wehave to keep in mind.
Like, we don't always have togo to the market.
And also, I'll just add inthere's a lot out there.
Let's also use discernment whenwe are looking at these tools
in a sense of who's putting itout there, what's what is it
(32:30):
saying, and are they reallyeducators?
Because I'll see TikToks outthere where they've just hired
somebody to say that they're ateacher.
And it's just like, no, youknow, like let's, you know, that
doesn't exist.
That is inauthentic.
You know what I mean?
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (32:45):
So yes, no, and that's great, and that's
sound advice, uh, definitely,with especially how saturated
the market has become.
And again, and I'm talkingsimply just education, but I
mean, even in the professionalworld, I mean, so many things
that are happening and you know,systems in place, and you've
got SaaS products and you've gotall these vendors, and it's
(33:06):
just everybody's really justselling on the buzzwords, you
know.
We this is gonna providesynergy and this is gonna go
ahead and um you know build upthese particular skills and so
on.
But then, but are the resultsthere?
You know, is there data to backthat up?
Exactly.
And so I think that it is soundadvice that you shared where if
(33:28):
you are a district that isdeciding to move forward with
this, is really great to justsay, okay, let's like, let's
have a community.
Um, first, maybe I and I knowDr.
Nika McGee, I know when shestarted working with this here
in uh uh one of the schooldistricts that's close to where
I live, she started and broughtin a group of teachers, and they
(33:51):
were like kind of like theteachers in the loop, and they
tried everything out, pushed itat its paces, saw the results
that they were getting, and thenthey were saying, okay, this is
something that would be usefulfor X, Y, and Z content and kind
of take it from there.
Or just like you said, pickthose three and just really take
(34:11):
a deep dive and see where yougo.
The the only thing is with me,and and you know, being a
digital learning uh coordinatoris although we do say, okay, let
we're gonna go ahead and levelset and we're gonna use these
three platforms, you know thatthere's those teachers, I call
them the speedboats, that aregonna hop on and use the
(34:32):
freemiums of every other appthat is out there, and then
they're gonna say, no, we wantthis one and we want this one.
And then later on, you know, amonth later, it's like, hey, I
want this one now.
But it's like, wait a minute,it's like you haven't given
enough time for the tool to giveus that data to see if it is
being effective.
And I think that's somethingthat's very important in
checking the efficacy andobviously checking the price on
(34:57):
a lot of these apps because itis quite an investment.
And then for you to not be ableto get the results that you
they promised that you wouldget, then that's something where
you feel like, oh my gosh, didwe make a mistake?
So it's important to take thosedeep dives.
And I think also going back tothe model of how you do
professional development, Ithink that's something that is
(35:18):
great.
And PLCs to become true PLCs,not please learn compliance
meetings, but actual I've neverheard that LCs.
Yes, because a lot of the timesit's just PLCs instead of
teachers actually talking aboutlessons and what they could do
and planning, it's really here'sanother list of check uh, you
(35:40):
know, that I have to that youguys have to check off for
compliance.
So it's really please learncompliance.
And so that's what I think thatthey've turned into many times.
But it's so important to buildthat community and and it's
important to have thatcommunication collaborate across
the district, across gradelevels, across content, and see
what works and just go withthat, you know.
(36:01):
I think it's uh even getting,yeah, sorry.
Oh no, no, go ahead.
Go ahead.
Merissa Sadler-Holder (36:07):
I was just gonna say, even like just
getting the community involvedtoo.
Like it doesn't, you know, youhave all these different
stakeholders that should beinvolved in all of this.
Because guess what?
The kids are watching, they'rewatching how we're approaching,
they're watching how we aredoing this, and we need to be
modeling what innovativethinking looks like and how we
(36:28):
approach this technologyethically and with intention.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (36:31):
Yes, most definitely.
And you know what?
And that's also a great pointthat you mentioned.
It's having everybody at thetable.
And that's even includingparents.
Parents should also know whatit is and what's happening and
what the school is trying to do.
And just, you know, and andobviously it's all for the good
of the students.
We want those results.
We want our students to besuccessful, but you know, we can
also include that parentcommunity parent community, and
(36:54):
that'll definitely help uh youredge your school be very
successful too, as well, becauseparents get informed.
So I want to ask you now, justkind of uh changing things up a
little bit.
And you know, I want to talkabout the great event that
you'll be speaking uh at.
But before we get to that, justto kind of round out the
conversation a little bit, is Iwant to ask you, what is one
(37:16):
thing that through all of yourtravels and all the work that
you've done with teachers, whatis the one thing that still
surprises you about teachers asfar as misconceptions that they
still have about AI?
Merissa Sadler-Holder (37:38):
Um I think it goes back to what I was
talking about early um earlierabout where they're finding
their value in all of this.
I think the biggestmisconception is that they don't
(37:59):
have value if something like AIcan do what they do.
And that the fact is is thattheir expertise is what makes
them so valuable.
Their ability to have humanconnection with their students
is what makes them so valuable.
And the nuances that they bringinto the classroom makes them
so valuable.
(38:19):
And that while the technologyis important to learn and learn
about, and we need to model whatthat looks like, it's still so
important to keep in mind thatit is a it's technology and what
we do in education learning thescience of learning, learning
(38:47):
is messy and beautiful, andsometimes fast, sometimes slow,
but it is this incredibleprocess that we curate for our
students, and that simply shouldnot be chalked up to something
that can help optimize thatmessiness because it's in the
(39:10):
messiness that students learn.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (39:13):
Yes.
Oh, I love that.
That is wonderful.
That is wonderful.
Oh, that is great.
I it I love that it just reallykind of hit and resonates just
because even in the classroom,you know, when when I was in the
classroom, it wasn't alwaysperfect.
And I think for a lot ofteachers, you know, it's the the
pressure is on that they feelthat they have to be on 100% and
(39:37):
that the lessons have to beperfect and that they have to
know everything.
But somewhere along the line inmy my 11 years in the
classroom, I slowly startedfiguring out because I was like
in a wake, I guess, kind ofburning out and trying to always
know everything.
But I then I figured I waslike, you know what, it's okay
(39:58):
to not know everything.
You know, I am here as a as alearning engineer.
I'm I'm engineering andcreating these learning
experiences for the studentswhere we can all at the same
time learn together.
And I think that that wassomething that was great.
And now with the tools that areavailable, you can definitely
take that learning to that nextlevel and going in deeper and
(40:22):
understanding how to leveragethose tools in a way that you're
still engineering a greatexperience and enhancing the
learning for students.
I think that that's somethingthat is great.
And I think that that shouldkind of alleviate some of that
pressure and and some of the,you know, at least for some
teachers, to just milk up, makethem feel at peace and ease.
(40:42):
Because, like you said, somemay feel like, well, I mean,
this thing's gonna replace me.
I was like, but it's notbecause it doesn't know the
students, it can't read theirfaces, it can't, it doesn't know
where it is that who where thestudents are coming from, what
side of town they may live, whatit is that they may need, and
how you as a teacher can helpshape that student's not only
(41:06):
day, but that year by beingpresent and being there for
them.
And this this is just a tool onthe side to help with the
learning process, but it'sirreplaceable, like you
mentioned earlier that we talkedabout that teacher contact,
that what a teacher can do is isa life-changing experience for
sure for a lot of students thatyou know that could be the the
(41:30):
safest place that they'll be allyear, and you as a teacher have
that, but now we have thosetools also for the learning as
well.
So I think that's somethingthat is very powerful.
And yes, it it's teaching ismessy, and it's okay that it's
messy.
And I figure sometimes if if ifyou don't feel that messiness,
(41:50):
then are we really teaching?
I was like, Well, but I mean,I'm just throwing that out there
because I figure like myself, Iwas like, man, if if I'm not
being messy, I was like, thenwhat am I doing?
Like, we need to get messy, weneed to get heads-on, and
sometimes it it kind of uh itlooks a little different for a
lot of us, but I think thatthat's great, awesome.
All right, so Marissa, I wantto ask you now, because I'm
(42:13):
really excited.
I know I saw the news, youknow, a couple days back and
everything, but I want to know alittle bit about this wonderful
experience that you're gonnahave pretty soon, and you are
going to be presenting at EdTechWeek.
Is that correct?
Merissa Sadler-Holder (42:26):
Yes.
Um, I will be in EdTech uh atEd Tech Week in New York at
Columbia University.
I will be presenting, sorry,that's a mouthful.
I will be presenting withBonnie Neves, um, who has been a
guest on the podcast as well.
So that's really exciting.
And we are, you know, I wentlast year and it was my first
(42:46):
experience.
You know, again, coming fromthe classroom, I didn't even
know these existed, right?
And so I found out and I wentand I kind of realized that I,
you know, that was one of theonly teachers there.
Or, you know, my experience wasjust as a teacher.
And I mean, they had, you know,superintendents and, you know,
(43:08):
big wigs and all these people,but then there's, you know, me.
And I thought, you know, weneed more, um, we need to hear
more from those teachers whohave, you know, chalk in the
hand, you know, insight.
Because frankly, like these,you know, the ed tech out there
(43:30):
that we are we're experiencing.
And as teachers, as soon as itfinally comes to our classroom,
we are looking at whether or notit is effective.
Because, you know, frankly, wecould use 50 tools in one year.
And, you know, what makes yourtool special?
Well, is it effective?
Is it doing what it should bedoing?
And I think sometimes there isa disconnect between the promise
(43:55):
and the reality.
And so this year I am soexcited that they reached out to
us to have us come and speakand kind of amplify that teacher
voice and say, you know, I callmyself the spicy apple because
I kind of tell it like it is,you know, this is really what's
going on, you know, type thing.
(44:15):
And because the reality is thissoon enough, we as educators
will have access if we're notalready doing it now, some of us
teachers out there will haveaccess to a tool that will allow
us to create our own tools.
What will happen to ed techthen?
(44:38):
What will happen to thosecompanies then once we actually
just start building itourselves?
And so just kind of putting itout, you know, like look, this
is this is a very realpotential.
And you know, um somebody hasto say it, and I guess it's
(45:01):
gonna be us.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (45:02):
Yeah, no, and you know what, that is a
wonderful message.
I really love that because upuntil this point, we've depended
on what others think that weneed.
But as a teacher, you are theone in the classroom and you are
the one that knows what yourobstacles, barriers are, you
know what your wins are, youknow what your students need.
(45:24):
And so you're absolutely right.
Once that tool comes out whereyou yourself can create what you
need, then where does thatleave everybody that up until
this point were seemingly theexperts in telling us what we
need?
And I think that that is a verypowerful and a very spicy hot
take, Marissa.
(45:44):
And I love it.
And I'm all here for it becauseuh, like you said, just being
able to amplify that voice andhearing more teachers out and
now say, hey, you know what?
For right now, yes, we may needyou and depend on you because
obviously you guys have theinfrastructure.
But when that moment comes, Iknow what my student needs and I
(46:05):
can easily build some buildsomething for them for that
specific use case for thatgroup, that small group, that
large group, for the varyinglevels that I may be teaching, I
can easily make it, have itdone, and it's there and it's
mine.
Or I can also see it as thisand this, which is to me, I was
(46:26):
like, hey, this is what would begreat where as a collective, be
able to interchange our toolswith one another in different
districts and say, hey, I likewhat Marissa's doing over there,
and I like what that tool isdoing.
I want to see if I can go aheadand use that here.
And it's like all of a sudden,it's like, whoa, Marissa, your
tool really helps me out here.
(46:46):
And then, hey, Fonz, you've gotthat cool podcasting tool.
I want to try that with mystudents, and the it just
becomes a true community, and weare all sharing the tools that
we build for ourselves, and thenwe can actually say it is
teacher built, as opposed tomany other platforms that say
(47:06):
that are teacher built, but mayhave never had a teacher on
their staff at all, whatsoever.
So spicy take there, Marissa.
I love it, I love it, and thefact that you're presenting with
Bonnie too.
Oh, Bonnie is such a love.
She is wonderful, she has awonderful heart and such a
passion for education.
So I'm very excited and happyfor you.
(47:27):
And so uh please let us knowfor our listeners that may be
attending at tech week.
When is the uh your talk goingto be?
Merissa Sadler-Holder (47:36):
Oh gosh, I was supposed to know that.
Um it will be, I know, it willbe on Wednesday in the
afternoon.
I believe it's uh um uh Ibelieve it's at four.
And I'll double check and ummaybe you can put it in the show
notes.
Yes, because I did not comeprepared.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (47:53):
No, I definitely will put that in the
show notes, and definitely,guys, make sure that you visit
Marissa's website atteachingwithmachines.com.
That will also be in the shownotes, and you can probably
connect also.
I think the best place toconnect with Marissa is also
going to be LinkedIn.
But Marissa, tell our audiencemembers where else they might be
(48:14):
able to connect with you.
Merissa Sadler-Holder (48:16):
Yeah, um, you can just email me directly
at Marissa M-E-R-I-S-S-A atteachingwithmachines.com.
I mean, I'm open.
My emails are open.
I'm more than happy to, youknow, meet with you, zoom with
you, whatever it is that youguys want to talk about.
Um, I just I really wantteachers to know that there is
(48:37):
somebody out there who who whowill help them navigate this.
So um email me.
And then there's also aFacebook uh group called
Teaching with Machines.
You can just kind of go findthat.
And then I'll also send youthat link for Facebook and
LinkedIn.
LinkedIn's kind of where I'vebeen hanging out.
Um, but I also have a weeklynewsletter as well.
(49:00):
And you can find that on my umwebsite,
teachingwithmachines.com.
Also on the website, just knowthat there's a bunch of
templates, ready to go, freedownloads.
Everything's free.
Just, you know, it's reallyjust to help you kind of either
set up AI classroom norms withyour classroom or um what I call
(49:22):
a flexible toolbox where youadd in AI into your class, you
invite it in with boundaries,and you allow your students to
kind of start building their ownliteracy and their own uh
fluency with AI.
So while supporting your owncurriculum.
So um all of that is free foryou guys.
(49:43):
It's a pleasure, and it wasgreat talking to you today for
sure.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (49:47):
So awesome.
And again, I did just hop on toLinkedIn and go to your
profile.
So it'll be October the 22nd,which is that Wednesday, that
Marissa will be talking.
So, and again, we'll definitelyput that in the show notes too
as well.
So if there's anybody that'slistening that's gonna be at Ed
Tech Week, please make sure thatyou do check out that talk with
(50:08):
Marissa and Bonnie.
And you're gonna hear uhMarissa's spicy takes, which I'm
all here for, which is great.
And all of that will be in theshow notes.
But Marissa, before we wrap up,as you know, I always love to
end the show with the followingthree questions.
So hopefully you are ready togo.
So here we go.
Question number one (50:26):
as we know, every superhero has a pain
point or a weakness.
For Superman, kryptoniteweakened him.
So I want to ask you, Marissa,in the current state of
education or AI in education,you can pick either one, or if
you want to give both, whatwould you say is your current
(50:47):
edu kryptonite?
Merissa Sadler-Holder (50:49):
Oh my gosh.
Uh kind of um it's this, I knowit's my I know it's it's
mindset, but the inability to II guess it's really difficult to
kind of see kind of where youyou think things are moving and
you believe things are moving,and know it takes quite a bit to
(51:14):
get there, but the inability tosee the your surroundings and
see where education is actuallystaying put and stagnant, and
you're you're just hoping somuch more to come out of it.
And I think a lot of it ismindset, and I know that Dr.
Mark Isaacs uh Isaacs, thegentleman you had on the last,
(51:38):
by the way, if you're listeningto that, go back and listen to
that podcast.
It is absolutely amazing.
I'm gonna make this man a myfriend.
I don't know how.
He is he's so great.
Everything he said was amazing.
That was an amazing episode.
But kind of this idea thatwe're stuck and we're, you know,
we're going back to the waythings we've always done because
it's always worked.
But the problem is it's it'sjust not working, and nobody
(51:59):
everybody knows that, butnobody's doing anything to make
any changes.
So I I see the change and thedemand, and I think we need to
kind of pair up the demand forwhat our students actually need,
and we just we we just need tomake that mindset shift just
slowly, if if if anything.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (52:20):
No, I love it.
I actually I put out a clipearlier today about our
conversation, and he called itlike cognitive entrenchment.
And it just the where you justdo the same thing every year,
you know, your calendarbasically looks the same, your
lesson plans, your tests, and soon.
And then so you wonder, why arewe why is innovation not
(52:40):
working?
Why are we not innovating?
Well, because you're stuck inthat loop of doing things
continually instead of, like yousaid, like what is working for
the students and what is not?
And let's kind of make thosechanges.
So, yes, definitely uh greatconversation with uh Dr.
Mark Isics, and that'sfantastic.
Uh, question number two,Marissa, is if you could have a
(53:04):
billboard with anything on it,what would it be and why?
Merissa Sadler-Holder (53:13):
I should have prepared for this question.
Um I think I would say thevalue is you.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (53:27):
I like that.
Merissa Sadler-Holder (53:29):
Yeah.
And why?
Because it's true.
You know, I mean, again, likeAI won't, you know, AI I feel
like we can be so creative withAI.
And so I think now we have thisopportunity to do that, but
only you bring that in.
Only you decide what isactually good.
(53:50):
Only you decide if itrepresents your creativity, only
you decide if it's reflectiveof your expertise.
So the value is you without it,it it just simply does not
exist.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (54:03):
Oh, that is powerful.
That is a wonderful billboard.
Like you got me thinking, I'mlike, yes, that is that is a
great message.
I love it.
All right.
Question number three, lastone.
If you could trade places witha single person for a day, who
would that be and why?
Merissa Sadler-Holder (54:20):
I would probably, he's gonna laugh at
this.
I would I would totally changeplaces with Canal.
Kenal Dalal.
I don't know if you know him.
He he's quite the character,but this man is when we talk
about creativity, like I wouldlove to just be in his boots, in
(54:42):
his brain for a day, and justsee the sparks flying and see
where it takes us.
If you don't follow him, he'samazing.
He's on LinkedIn.
He is such a forward thinkervisionary when it comes to AI
and education.
And while I like to say thatI'm kind of a couple steps ahead
(55:02):
of the game, this man islapping me.
So um it's hard to keep up withhim sometimes, but his
excitement and creativity andhuman-centered everything and
just super authentic.
Everybody should follow him.
He's a lovely person, and Iwould love to be him for a day.
Yes.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (55:20):
And I can vouch for that.
He definitely is.
And uh, I'll definitely I'lleven put his his uh info there
in the show notes too.
If you follow him, I promiseyou you will not regret it.
You and just like Marissa says,so much energy, so much
passion, and it's somebodywonderful that you should
definitely connect with and bepart of your network for share.
(55:42):
Marissa, thank you so much fora wonderful conversation this
evening.
It has been an honor and apleasure.
And like I said from the verybeginning, just since we first
connected to see the wonderfulwork that you're doing, where
you have been and where you aregoing.
And I think it's somethingfantastic.
And I love to see that withinthe community.
(56:03):
So much growth.
Keep doing you, keep owningyour shine.
And I'm just excited for whatthe future will bring for you
because I can definitely see youspeaking at many more
conferences, bigger conferences,and you just keep doing it, my
friend.
I appreciate you.
And as always, any guest of myshow is a forever guest.
(56:24):
So next time that you've gotsomething major going on, your
your next book or anything elsethat you're gonna be doing,
you're always welcome back, myfriend.
It's an honor to have you.
Thank you.
Merissa Sadler-Holder (56:36):
Thank you so much for having me.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (56:38):
Appreciate you.
All right, guys.
And for all our listeners,thank you as always for all of
your support.
Please make sure you check outthis episode and the other 338
episodes that were I promisethat you will find a little
something just for you that youcan sprinkle onto what you are
already doing.
Great.
So please make sure you visitour website at myedtech.life,
(56:59):
myedtech.life.
And again, thank you so much toour wonderful sponsors, Book
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I appreciate all of yoursupport.
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continue to amplify wonderfulvoices and continue to grow and
(57:19):
learn from one another.
So thank you very much.
And my friends, until nexttime, don't forget, stay techie.
Hello, everybody, and welcome to
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And that's our goal to makesure that we continue to give
you conversations that'll helpus continue to grow.
And before we dive in, Idefinitely want to thank our
wonderful sponsors.
Thank you so much to BookCreator, Eduaid, and Yellowdig
(00:56):
for sponsoring our show.
Without you and without youbelieving in our mission, we
wouldn't be doing what we'redoing.
So thank you so much for thatsupport.
And if you're interested inbeing a sponsor, please feel
free to reach out to us and wecan definitely set that up.
But I am excited about today.
Uh today's guest is somebodythat I have been following for a
(01:18):
very long time.
And I have just seen not justher account, but just her and
this glow-up.
She's been doing so many greatthings, and she's going to tell
us about some exciting thingsthat are happening that are
coming soon.
But she has been talking notonly at school districts, she'll
participate, you know, atStanford University.
(01:40):
She's working with so manypeople in so many different ways
and talking to them about AI.
So I am excited to welcome tothe show our wonderful guest
today, Marissa Sadler Holder.
Thank you so much for joiningus this evening.
How are you, Marissa?
Merissa Sadler-Holder (01:59):
I'm great.
I'm so excited to be here.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (02:01):
Well, I am excited to have you here.
It was great just talking inthe pre-show, just getting to
just the way that we'veconnected and we've connected on
LinkedIn and you know, for afor a good while now.
And obviously, uh we connectwith the same circles as far as
AI, AI and educationconversations and so on.
So it's just been great to seeyour input.
(02:24):
It's been great, like Imentioned, seeing your journey
and the wonderful opportunitiesthat you have had in helping
educators and also just bringingyour knowledge to, like I
mentioned, wonderful places.
I know Stanford, you know, andyou've got some great things
coming up, but I'll make I'lllet you announce that.
But I'm really excited aboutthat for you.
But before we dive in into ourconversation, Marissa, for any
(02:47):
of our audience members that arelistening at this very moment
that may not be familiar withyour work just yet, can you give
us a little bit of backgroundand what your context is within
the education ed tech space?
Merissa Sadler-Holder (03:02):
Yeah, sure.
So um I have a background inteaching.
Uh 13 years, I was actually aFrench teacher.
And during COVID, I hopped intogetting um a master's in um
instructional design andtechnology for education.
And I just I really dived in.
(03:22):
I've always been one of thosepeople who like to tinker with
education and tinker withtechnology and see where there's
an intersection there.
And um after COVID, you know, Ijust I was kind of feeling like
I wanted to do something withthe two together.
And, you know, lo and behold, Imean, it kind of just happened
(03:43):
with AI kind of being open tothe masses.
And I thought, oh my gosh, thisis, you know, this is gonna
make a wave in education.
I think this is something thatI can dive into.
And educators are, you know,gonna be looking for help.
And um, so I kind of justdecided to go ahead and create
teaching with machines, which isreally about helping educators
(04:06):
kind of learn about these newtechnologies that are out there,
see how they can apply theirexpertise to this technology and
see what they can create.
And um, my ultimate goal withteaching with machines is to
really have the teacher um feelempowered and excited, kind of
(04:26):
like that new shot in the arm ineducation that we all kind of
need to get us excited aboutwhat we're doing again.
And um I speak a lot about AIand education, the integration.
Um, I've uh work with schoolsand uh I worked with Orange
County Department of Educationas well as an AI consultant and
(04:49):
speak at Stanford.
I I am speaking at conferences,and yeah, that's kind of what
I'm doing right now.
And again, like it's all aboutjust sharing, going out there,
learning the thing, and thensharing whatever I learn.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (05:02):
Yeah, and that's great.
And I, you know, one of thethings that I love too that you
mentioned is, you know,empowering teachers.
And as we know, you know, we'veseen so many things, you know,
in the news, how things havechanged in education and so on.
And, you know, it's veryimportant that we do help
support our educators in everywhich way possible, you know,
(05:23):
from pedagogy to including thetech in pedagogy and finding
that balance.
And so one of the things that Ilove uh, you know, following
your page and seeing um teachingwith machines, which we will
make sure that we link in theshow notes, guys, so you can go
ahead and visit Marissa's page,but how important that
technology is, but it will nevercompare to the impact that
(05:45):
teachers have.
And I think that that's soimportant that you not only help
teachers, you know, learn, likeyou mentioned, a new
technology.
And and I don't know, we canstill say relatively new, even
though I mean, since November2022, we're already headed to
November 2025, and we've seenhow it has evolved.
But I think that that'ssomething that is great, and
(06:06):
it's something that is gonna becontinuous because as the tech
changes, as the tech progresses,there's still gonna have to be
uh people such as yourself,myself, and many of the guests
that I've had on the show to beable to share their experiences
with educators to help them aswe continue to move forward.
So that's something that's veryexciting.
(06:28):
So I want to ask you, uh,Marissa, well, when was it that
you made that jump or thatchoice to go from educator to
say, hey, I'm gonna go ahead andjust go all in on teaching with
machines?
What was that aha spark momentfor you?
Gosh.
Merissa Sadler-Holder (06:48):
I don't know.
I sometimes I go, am I crazyfor even to because you know the
thing is, is it really is it'sa huge career shift, you know.
13 years in my position, andyou know, it's a stable position
in a great high school.
And to jump into this, it was abig decision.
(07:09):
But like one of my friendssaid, you know, it's now or
never, you know, I mean, this isthis is this moment.
And if you can help educatorskind of navigate this so they
can in turn help their studentsnavigate this, this is the time.
This is the only moment in timeyou can do that, you know.
And so I just I did it.
(07:32):
But you know, the funny thingis is that when I when I left
the profession and I startedexploring what I could be doing,
none of the jobs that I wantedto do existed.
And so I kind of just said, allright, well, I guess I'll
create teaching with machines soI have something that I can put
on my resume to say that I'mdoing something.
(07:54):
But I honestly, I ended upsubbing.
I ended up subbing for almost ayear while I built out teaching
with machines.
And um through that, it was ahumbling experience.
It was a very interestingexperience.
It is one that allowed meinsight into other classrooms
than my own experience, whichwas incredible.
(08:16):
And also the ability to haveconversations with students who
have no fear of sharing theirinsight or input on how they use
this technology.
Um, there's no repercussions,right, with a sub.
So um I was able to do a littlerecon during that subbing
(08:37):
situation.
But, you know, as I progressedand I continued, and I have a
weekly newsletter that I justkept on putting out, sharing
what I've learned.
Um, I think part of it too isthat while I saw this as, I
mean, I I tell this storybasically, and it's the moment I
realized that they neededsomebody out there, and not just
(08:59):
myself, but there's many, manypeople too.
But this idea of like I wassitting down and I was writing
an email in response to kind of,you know, your typical angry
parent email, if you will.
And I was done.
I mean, it was the end of theday, it was like in April.
And my friend said, I don'tthink you should respond to that
(09:19):
email right now, because youknow, I was a little, you know,
heated or something.
And so um, I said, Okay, Iwon't.
She's like, But I think youshould run it through Chat GPT
and adjust it, you know.
And so I did, and I just kindof sat back and was just like,
oh gosh, oh, okay.
This is not a technology thatis just gonna be something that
(09:43):
we just uh simply adapt to, butrather will have a profound
impact on education.
Um, especially, you know, likepart of the thing is is like I
taught French and GoogleTranslate has had a huge impact
on how we do assessments, how weteach in language classes, and
(10:05):
we're still struggling withthat, many of us, and it's been
15 years, you know.
So it's one of the, or maybe10, I'm sorry.
Um, but I just kept onthinking, okay, this is where
teachers are gonna need supporton the outside.
Now, I started following you,which was amazing on LinkedIn,
and I quickly realized there'sjust not a lot of teachers on
(10:27):
LinkedIn, you know, um, a lot ofadmin, maybe, um, you know,
just kind of thought leaders,but like the chalk in hand
teacher, just there's no need tokind of have that profile on
LinkedIn because we don't use itto network, right?
So what's the point?
It, you know, and so I justkind of, you know, I started
(10:50):
getting on LinkedIn and Irealized that there's a need to
make sure that the teacher voiceis amplified in these spaces
where there are people who aremaking decisions, thought
leaders who are giving theiropinions on where education is
going.
I just wanted to make sure thatthe chalk in hand teacher has
somebody who can amplify theirvoice out into these spaces to
(11:12):
make sure that they are beingheard.
Um, and so that's kind of thedecision I made.
And I it's been an amazingexperience.
It's been a journey, it's beenups and downs, of course, but
it's been, it's been a lot offun.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (11:27):
Yeah.
And yeah, I've seen, like Isaid, seeing you, like I said,
uh beautiful glow up.
And I always tell my friends,like, I see you, like I see the
great things, and it just getsme so excited, you know, that
people within the space arecontinuing to grow and getting
all these opportunities and soon.
And so just to see you, andfrom when, you know, we first
(11:48):
started connecting on LinkedInto see what you're doing.
And I'm like, oh my gosh, lookat what Marissa's doing now, and
look at where she's at, andlook at where she's headed and
all those opportunities.
I think that's something that'svaluable too, in the sense that
you're amplifying and you'realso not only are you amplifying
your experience, but you likeyou mentioned, it's you're
amplifying the voice of thoseeducators too, as well.
(12:09):
Like you're bringing theirvoices to the table because
oftentimes, you know,stakeholders usually are the
ones that say, well, we're theone, the decision makers up at
the top, but we don't includethe actual users within those
conversations as well.
And I think that's somethingthat's very important.
But I want to kind of shift up,you know, a little bit now
because I know that we talk alittle a lot about this, and I
(12:32):
know I've seen it on LinkedIn somuch, and it's been something
that I've seen for the pastcouple of years.
Well, I and I know say a coupleof years, but mainly maybe
within the last year, year and ahalf, there's a strong push,
and we're always going andtalking about human-centered AI
professional development.
(12:53):
So, with your experience inprofessional development, and of
course, using that phrase,human-centered AI professional
development, what doeshuman-centered mean to Marissa,
especially, especially in aworld where it just seems like
every AI tool seems to be thestar or that magic bullet, and
(13:15):
we kind of forget about thathuman aspect.
So tell me a little bit abouthow you find that balance and
how you really put that thehuman first.
Merissa Sadler-Holder (13:55):
Yeah, um I have this belief about when we
use AI that really AI should bean extension of your own
expertise.
And it should reflect um yourvoice.
And so when it's not going toreplace, we're not going to put
(14:16):
out there or use it for thingsthat we wouldn't normally know
what to do and how to do.
You know, I think it's veryimportant that, because I think
a lot of us and the big fear andthat the thing that nobody
really talks about.
And I mean, whether you're anartist, whether you are a
teacher or another profession,we all are sitting here going,
(14:38):
if AI can do what I do, thenwhat value do I bring?
And it's very, it's it's a it'sone of those things we don't,
we don't talk about it, butthat's the fear.
That's what's driving the fear.
And I think when we sit downand we say, okay, what value do
(14:59):
I bring?
Well, you know, the the AIcannot do anything without your
direction.
So if it is something that isreflecting your input, is
reflecting your expertise, thenwe have much more control over
the AI than we really are, we wereally think we do, right?
So um that and and and I telllike when I'm doing sessions
(15:24):
with students, even I have thisconversation about making sure
that you know, there's theseskills that we need to develop
in this AI world.
And and then they're they'reyou know, hard and fast skills
that we've been trying to dofor, you know, impart on them
and you know, critical thinking,creativity, all of those
(15:44):
things, right?
And collaboration.
But one of the ones and in kindof tapping into like the
literary world or you know, theEnglish teacher's world is
developing that authentic voice.
And what does that look likefor you?
Because you know what?
There's only one of you.
You only get to develop thatauthentic voice.
(16:06):
Nothing else can do that exceptfor you.
And in a world where it'sbecoming more and more um
inundated with AI andartificially created things,
having that authentic voice thatcannot be duplicated and
replicated is yours.
And um really work ondeveloping that.
(16:29):
Can you use AI to help youdevelop it?
Yes, but it will never replaceit.
And I think that is soimportant, especially, and I
don't know if you've been seeingthis either, but like when
we're on TikTok or we're lookingat social media, I swear
there's been like a shift fromgoing away from the curated
(16:50):
selfies and the curated contentperfectly.
Everybody's life is perfect,but we know, you know, behind
the scenes it's not perfect,right?
Whereas the more popularcontent creators are coming in
disheveled, looking like anormal, you know, everyday human
person and telling their storybecause they're captivating this
authentic voice.
(17:11):
And we are so drawn to it andwe have such a need for it that
I think we're gonna want toreally start developing that
even more.
And I think it's gonna bereally important for our
students' future.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (17:23):
Yes.
No, I and one of the thingsthat you that I love that you
mentioned is that authenticvoice.
There's only one of you in thisworld, and we really want to
hear your voice, your thoughts.
And like, you know, like youmentioned, there are many tools
that are out there that canhelp, you know, at least, you
know, work through your messageor what you're trying to say and
(17:43):
things of that sort.
But there's also a way ofdelivery that is you, that is
the way that your true voicereally comes out.
And like you mentioned, in aworld that is becoming very
synthetic very quickly, becausenow with uh Sora 2 dropping and
all of these videos, now you'vegot that video aspect of it.
(18:06):
Uh, obviously, you know, withthe large language models and so
on.
So I do agree with you that nowit's people want to see that
authenticity, who you reallyare.
And yes, you you do notice thatshift where, you know, the
videos are not as overproducedas they once were.
You know, people are coming injust being more natural because
(18:27):
that's what people are craving.
They're craving, they arewanting, you know, that
authentic voice.
And uh kind of going along thatline, I kind of wanted to
share, and I know I've done itin another episode, but it's
very, you know, pertinent towhat we're talking about,
especially with voice, where agood friend of mine, she also
does speaking engagements and soon.
(18:48):
And, you know, obviously withthe world of of LLMs and uh, you
know, creating presentations isa lot easier, a lot quicker.
You kind of give it your ideaand it'll go ahead and uh pop
something out for you.
So she said that she was gonnado a little keynote and she
said, Man, I already had thispresentation, you know, done,
(19:11):
you know, a month ago andeverything like that.
But of course, with the use ofAI and and helping in creating
that.
But she said that when she waspresenting, even though she has
that content knowledge, she justfelt like this isn't me, like
this isn't really my voice, andso on.
(19:31):
So she actually said, like, I'mgonna take a little break from
all of this a little bit andjust kind of see, like, like
kind of guess you find yourselfagain, because I think
oftentimes too, you do also seethat side of videos and content
where you can see that it isvery heavily dependent on LLMs.
And sometimes like you couldyou can kind of pick it out, you
(19:53):
know, especially if we use itand so on, you can kind of pick
it out.
And sometimes it's like, uh,I'll just kind of scroll right
past it.
And uh like then I'll I seesomebody that maybe has a lot of
spelling errors or somethinglike that.
And I'm like, ooh, I want tosee that, I want to read that,
you know, because it just feelslike like, oh, this is authentic
and stuff like that.
So I I really like that yousaid that you really help
(20:14):
teachers also see that, thatthere's only one of you and it's
your voice, but also that youwork with students on that.
And I think that's somethingthat's very important.
And as you know, like now withthe release of Sora and the way
that the technology is gettingbetter and better, you know, it
just seems like every weekthere's some kind of new
improvement, there's some newmodel that's coming out, and you
(20:34):
really want to help yourstudents understand and
critically think about theseoutputs and critically think
about these uh large languagemodels as well.
But kind of going back to thework that you do with schools,
Marissa, I want to ask you inyour experience too, as well,
you know, a lot of schools thatuh are having that maybe trying
(21:41):
uh find having a hard timereconciling maybe the the great
use of AI, the use case of it,but maybe also now battling with
that data privacy and ethics,you know, those barriers.
What are some things that youmay have seen or some best
practices that you've seen, youknow, along your travels within
(22:02):
school districts?
And what might be somesuggestions that you yourself
too have come with that youmight be able to share with
educators or districts?
Merissa Sadler-Holder (22:11):
Yeah, so there's two things.
So there's the AI uh coherencecycle, and I'll tell you about
that in a second.
But first and foremost, I feellike everybody has to go through
their own journey with itbefore they can actually address
any of that, right?
Um, they have to first learnabout it.
We have to, we have to modelthose critical thinking and
(22:32):
excitement and innovation.
So first learning and beinglifelong learners is looking
into that.
Um, I think a lot of timesschools, given the time that
they're given, they just, youknow, kind of want to front load
all of this onto educators.
And, you know, here's your oneand a half hours, two hour
(22:53):
training, and then that's it.
And then, you know, expectgreatness.
And the thing is, is, you know,we don't do that to our
students.
We get fired if we try doingthat, you know, moving on to the
next lesson.
But um I think um it's thisidea that, you know, you have to
have two light bulbs that gooff.
And I'm not gonna swear,although I do say it in my head.
(23:15):
The first light bulb is like,oh, this is cool.
This can do this for me.
This is amazing.
And then the it's the oh beeplight bulb.
The second light bulb is whereit's like, oh, this is going to
impact.
This is going to do XYZ.
This is going to affect thethings that I do and how my
students do things, how myschool could possibly do things.
(23:36):
There is going to be the ohbeep light bulb that has to go
off.
And we have to have space to beable to do both.
The first one has to happenbefore the second one happens.
And then we can startaddressing those really big
picture ideas and going afterhow this can be done ethically,
safely, um, and with intention.
(23:58):
Now, what I've seen a lot ofsuccess in working with schools
is the AI coherence cycle that Ialso work with Danelle Almaras.
And what we've created withthis cycle is let's not, you
know, we kind of modeled it offof what business, successful
(24:19):
businesses have done tointegrate AI.
And instead of sitting downwith their employers and our
employees and saying, here, godo a two-hour training and then
off you go, what they first dowith AI is say, what's on fire?
Where are we bleeding?
What is going on?
Because we can't possibly thinkof anything else until we
(24:39):
address those huge, hugechallenges that we have.
And I think if we with this AIcoherence cycle, it's kind of
doing the same model.
It's saying, what are ourbiggest challenges right now?
What are some initiatives thatwe have to do to address?
You know, AI is the last thingon my mind when it comes to all
(25:01):
of this.
But instead, when we look atthese big challenges we have and
say, where can AI possibly comeand help me with these things?
Then we're really leveragingthe tool.
And along with that comeslearning and exploration of the
tool and professionaldevelopment.
(25:23):
But now we're doing that firstlight bulb.
Oh, hey, this can help me withthings, you know, and then
you're getting the professionaldevelopment in a way that is not
here, let me sit you down fortwo hours.
It's cyclical, it keeps ongoing.
And we're addressing thechallenges that we have at hand.
And I think that's going to bemore reflective of how we're
going to be seeing AI ineducation in the future.
(25:45):
But um, I I've seen somesuccess with it.
I will tell you the I workedwith a school that decided to do
that probably mid-year, um,where we just decided to focus
on getting their curriculum ummapped.
And we had about 30% of thestaff who had the curriculum map
(26:08):
and uploaded onto a um, what isit, like a program that
documents it, right?
And this was a part of theiraccreditation process.
Okay.
And they really wanted to getit done.
By like two months afterleveraging AI and working with
teachers, we had 80% of theteachers completed with all of
their curriculum mapped.
And it's just like, look, it'syour expertise that did this
(26:30):
with this tool.
This is how we could beaddressing and using and
leveraging AI.
It doesn't always have to be asit-down, here's your two-day,
you know, professionaldevelopment.
And along with that comeslearning about the limitations.
And that's where making sureyou're using it ethically,
that's why professionaldevelopment is important.
(26:52):
So we we are careful and we'reprotecting ourselves, we're
protecting our students, andwe're protecting our learning
community.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (26:58):
I love that.
And you know, that actuallycovers a lot of things that I
wanted to ask as a follow-upbecause as we know, you know,
with tools like the tools thatare out there now, the plethora
of platforms that we haveavailable, sometimes it's like,
hey, we just want the next shinytool.
And we just want it because wewant to do this faster, as
(27:20):
opposed to, okay, how can wereimagine what we're learning
with these tools and maybe takeit to that next level?
And I know uh I'm a big fan ofthe Samar model, you know, the
substitution, augmentation,modification, and redefinition.
So oftentimes what we normallysee, and initially, you know,
with as with any adoption,sometimes you'll get that
(27:40):
substitution factor of, well,before I used to do handouts,
well, now I can use somethinglike Kami that I can annotate
and I can do the same thing, youknow, digitally.
But then also, what else can wedo to take that and augment
what can what are some thingsthat we couldn't do before that
we're able to do there and thenmodify and then redefine?
(28:02):
And sometimes I feel that manytimes, as quick as we are,
sometimes as educators, we justwant the next shiny thing and we
just kind of say, ah, okay.
And then when it loses its loreand its glamour, it's like, all
right, let's move on to thenext thing because we we just
we're we're like that.
We get so excited and we wantto try those things.
But I think with this, evenwith the steps that you
(28:24):
described, having the teachersbeing able to work through it as
they're working there, it's notonly going to be something
that's gonna help them see thatthey can do their work more
efficiently, but also be moreeffective and also think of new
ways that they can enhance thoselessons as they're putting
their curriculums together andthinking, like, wow, like this
(28:44):
is something that I would havenever been able to do before.
And now I can enhance thoselessons for my students.
So that is great that youshared all of that because I
think that that really playswell into this.
And so, my next question to youthough, like I mentioned, as
educators, we get so excited andwe want to use the next tool
because we see what's hot uhthat's trending on, you know, on
(29:07):
educator um TikTok or onwhether it's uh X or Instagram
and so on.
So, as we know, you know,there's a lot of hype that gets
put onto a lot of these tools.
So, how do you help uhadministrators discern what
would be a good tool versussomething that might just be
(29:29):
snake oil?
Merissa Sadler-Holder (29:31):
Oh my gosh.
Um I I think we always shouldbe kind of centered on the
effectiveness, right?
Because there's a lot of thesetools out there.
And you do, first of all, youhave to give them time to
explore the tools to see if theyare effective.
And I think what I like to tellthe administrators is like just
(29:56):
pick pick three.
You don't need to pick, youknow, the 500 that are out
there, just pick three and justget good at it.
Get good at it.
And once you're done gettinggood at it, share out what it is
that you did with it.
Make sure you're creating thatcommunity of innovation and
(30:17):
sharing and excitement so peoplecan actually kind of bring that
PLC alive, if you will, right?
I don't, I mean a PLC could bea dirty word for some people,
your listeners.
I don't know, but it's thatidea where it's like in the true
sense of the learningcommunity, right?
So um I I I think just, youknow, you don't, I think it's
(30:42):
very important that you don'thave to know everything all at
once.
And I think as educators,that's really, really hard for
us because we've always beentold that the value we bring is
the expertise in the XYZsubject.
We are expected to know it all.
(31:03):
And the fact of the matter is,is that we don't.
And we're all exploring andwe're all learning and we're all
exploring this new technology.
So pick three, good, good.
At it, get some data back fromyou know the users, see how
they're doing with it, see whatthey like, what they don't like,
and then you can, you know,kind of continue on.
(31:25):
But again, you have to createthis community of like, is this
effective?
And I'm a big uh believer inteaching educators how to fish
versus go to the market andreally kind of get into the
weeds.
How is this tool working?
(31:45):
So in the future, if I'm simplyusing a tool that is safe and
approved by our school, that ifI know how to use it and I know
how to manipulate the tool for acertain output, I don't need
XYZ tool over there.
I don't need this, you know,555th tool that's out on the
(32:08):
market, right?
Like I just need my ownintelligence.
I think I think that's what wehave to keep in mind.
Like, we don't always have togo to the market.
And also, I'll just add inthere's a lot out there.
Let's also use discernment whenwe are looking at these tools
in a sense of who's putting itout there, what's what is it
(32:30):
saying, and are they reallyeducators?
Because I'll see TikToks outthere where they've just hired
somebody to say that they're ateacher.
And it's just like, no, youknow, like let's, you know, that
doesn't exist.
That is inauthentic.
You know what I mean?
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (32:45):
So yes, no, and that's great, and that's
sound advice, uh, definitely,with especially how saturated
the market has become.
And again, and I'm talkingsimply just education, but I
mean, even in the professionalworld, I mean, so many things
that are happening and you know,systems in place, and you've
got SaaS products and you've gotall these vendors, and it's
(33:06):
just everybody's really justselling on the buzzwords, you
know.
We this is gonna providesynergy and this is gonna go
ahead and um you know build upthese particular skills and so
on.
But then, but are the resultsthere?
You know, is there data to backthat up?
Exactly.
And so I think that it is soundadvice that you shared where if
(33:28):
you are a district that isdeciding to move forward with
this, is really great to justsay, okay, let's like, let's
have a community.
Um, first, maybe I and I knowDr.
Nika McGee, I know when shestarted working with this here
in uh uh one of the schooldistricts that's close to where
I live, she started and broughtin a group of teachers, and they
(33:51):
were like kind of like theteachers in the loop, and they
tried everything out, pushed itat its paces, saw the results
that they were getting, and thenthey were saying, okay, this is
something that would be usefulfor X, Y, and Z content and kind
of take it from there.
Or just like you said, pickthose three and just really take
(34:11):
a deep dive and see where yougo.
The the only thing is with me,and and you know, being a
digital learning uh coordinatoris although we do say, okay, let
we're gonna go ahead and levelset and we're gonna use these
three platforms, you know thatthere's those teachers, I call
them the speedboats, that aregonna hop on and use the
(34:32):
freemiums of every other appthat is out there, and then
they're gonna say, no, we wantthis one and we want this one.
And then later on, you know, amonth later, it's like, hey, I
want this one now.
But it's like, wait a minute,it's like you haven't given
enough time for the tool to giveus that data to see if it is
being effective.
And I think that's somethingthat's very important in
checking the efficacy andobviously checking the price on
(34:57):
a lot of these apps because itis quite an investment.
And then for you to not be ableto get the results that you
they promised that you wouldget, then that's something where
you feel like, oh my gosh, didwe make a mistake?
So it's important to take thosedeep dives.
And I think also going back tothe model of how you do
professional development, Ithink that's something that is
(35:18):
great.
And PLCs to become true PLCs,not please learn compliance
meetings, but actual I've neverheard that LCs.
Yes, because a lot of the timesit's just PLCs instead of
teachers actually talking aboutlessons and what they could do
and planning, it's really here'sanother list of check uh, you
(35:40):
know, that I have to that youguys have to check off for
compliance.
So it's really please learncompliance.
And so that's what I think thatthey've turned into many times.
But it's so important to buildthat community and and it's
important to have thatcommunication collaborate across
the district, across gradelevels, across content, and see
what works and just go withthat, you know.
(36:01):
I think it's uh even getting,yeah, sorry.
Oh no, no, go ahead.
Go ahead.
Merissa Sadler-Holder (36:07):
I was just gonna say, even like just
getting the community involvedtoo.
Like it doesn't, you know, youhave all these different
stakeholders that should beinvolved in all of this.
Because guess what?
The kids are watching, they'rewatching how we're approaching,
they're watching how we aredoing this, and we need to be
modeling what innovativethinking looks like and how we
(36:28):
approach this technologyethically and with intention.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (36:31):
Yes, most definitely.
And you know what?
And that's also a great pointthat you mentioned.
It's having everybody at thetable.
And that's even includingparents.
Parents should also know whatit is and what's happening and
what the school is trying to do.
And just, you know, and andobviously it's all for the good
of the students.
We want those results.
We want our students to besuccessful, but you know, we can
also include that parentcommunity parent community, and
(36:54):
that'll definitely help uh youredge your school be very
successful too, as well, becauseparents get informed.
So I want to ask you now, justkind of uh changing things up a
little bit.
And you know, I want to talkabout the great event that
you'll be speaking uh at.
But before we get to that, justto kind of round out the
conversation a little bit, is Iwant to ask you, what is one
(37:16):
thing that through all of yourtravels and all the work that
you've done with teachers, whatis the one thing that still
surprises you about teachers asfar as misconceptions that they
still have about AI?
Merissa Sadler-Holder (37:38):
Um I think it goes back to what I was
talking about early um earlierabout where they're finding
their value in all of this.
I think the biggestmisconception is that they don't
(37:59):
have value if something like AIcan do what they do.
And that the fact is is thattheir expertise is what makes
them so valuable.
Their ability to have humanconnection with their students
is what makes them so valuable.
And the nuances that they bringinto the classroom makes them
so valuable.
(38:19):
And that while the technologyis important to learn and learn
about, and we need to model whatthat looks like, it's still so
important to keep in mind thatit is a it's technology and what
we do in education learning thescience of learning, learning
(38:47):
is messy and beautiful, andsometimes fast, sometimes slow,
but it is this incredibleprocess that we curate for our
students, and that simply shouldnot be chalked up to something
that can help optimize thatmessiness because it's in the
(39:10):
messiness that students learn.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (39:13):
Yes.
Oh, I love that.
That is wonderful.
That is wonderful.
Oh, that is great.
I it I love that it just reallykind of hit and resonates just
because even in the classroom,you know, when when I was in the
classroom, it wasn't alwaysperfect.
And I think for a lot ofteachers, you know, it's the the
pressure is on that they feelthat they have to be on 100% and
(39:37):
that the lessons have to beperfect and that they have to
know everything.
But somewhere along the line inmy my 11 years in the
classroom, I slowly startedfiguring out because I was like
in a wake, I guess, kind ofburning out and trying to always
know everything.
But I then I figured I waslike, you know what, it's okay
(39:58):
to not know everything.
You know, I am here as a as alearning engineer.
I'm I'm engineering andcreating these learning
experiences for the studentswhere we can all at the same
time learn together.
And I think that that wassomething that was great.
And now with the tools that areavailable, you can definitely
take that learning to that nextlevel and going in deeper and
(40:22):
understanding how to leveragethose tools in a way that you're
still engineering a greatexperience and enhancing the
learning for students.
I think that that's somethingthat is great.
And I think that that shouldkind of alleviate some of that
pressure and and some of the,you know, at least for some
teachers, to just milk up, makethem feel at peace and ease.
(40:42):
Because, like you said, somemay feel like, well, I mean,
this thing's gonna replace me.
I was like, but it's notbecause it doesn't know the
students, it can't read theirfaces, it can't, it doesn't know
where it is that who where thestudents are coming from, what
side of town they may live, whatit is that they may need, and
how you as a teacher can helpshape that student's not only
(41:06):
day, but that year by beingpresent and being there for
them.
And this this is just a tool onthe side to help with the
learning process, but it'sirreplaceable, like you
mentioned earlier that we talkedabout that teacher contact,
that what a teacher can do is isa life-changing experience for
sure for a lot of students thatyou know that could be the the
(41:30):
safest place that they'll be allyear, and you as a teacher have
that, but now we have thosetools also for the learning as
well.
So I think that's somethingthat is very powerful.
And yes, it it's teaching ismessy, and it's okay that it's
messy.
And I figure sometimes if if ifyou don't feel that messiness,
(41:50):
then are we really teaching?
I was like, Well, but I mean,I'm just throwing that out there
because I figure like myself, Iwas like, man, if if I'm not
being messy, I was like, thenwhat am I doing?
Like, we need to get messy, weneed to get heads-on, and
sometimes it it kind of uh itlooks a little different for a
lot of us, but I think thatthat's great, awesome.
All right, so Marissa, I wantto ask you now, because I'm
(42:13):
really excited.
I know I saw the news, youknow, a couple days back and
everything, but I want to know alittle bit about this wonderful
experience that you're gonnahave pretty soon, and you are
going to be presenting at EdTechWeek.
Is that correct?
Merissa Sadler-Holder (42:26):
Yes.
Um, I will be in EdTech uh atEd Tech Week in New York at
Columbia University.
I will be presenting, sorry,that's a mouthful.
I will be presenting withBonnie Neves, um, who has been a
guest on the podcast as well.
So that's really exciting.
And we are, you know, I wentlast year and it was my first
(42:46):
experience.
You know, again, coming fromthe classroom, I didn't even
know these existed, right?
And so I found out and I wentand I kind of realized that I,
you know, that was one of theonly teachers there.
Or, you know, my experience wasjust as a teacher.
And I mean, they had, you know,superintendents and, you know,
(43:08):
big wigs and all these people,but then there's, you know, me.
And I thought, you know, weneed more, um, we need to hear
more from those teachers whohave, you know, chalk in the
hand, you know, insight.
Because frankly, like these,you know, the ed tech out there
(43:30):
that we are we're experiencing.
And as teachers, as soon as itfinally comes to our classroom,
we are looking at whether or notit is effective.
Because, you know, frankly, wecould use 50 tools in one year.
And, you know, what makes yourtool special?
Well, is it effective?
Is it doing what it should bedoing?
And I think sometimes there isa disconnect between the promise
(43:55):
and the reality.
And so this year I am soexcited that they reached out to
us to have us come and speakand kind of amplify that teacher
voice and say, you know, I callmyself the spicy apple because
I kind of tell it like it is,you know, this is really what's
going on, you know, type thing.
(44:15):
And because the reality is thissoon enough, we as educators
will have access if we're notalready doing it now, some of us
teachers out there will haveaccess to a tool that will allow
us to create our own tools.
What will happen to ed techthen?
(44:38):
What will happen to thosecompanies then once we actually
just start building itourselves?
And so just kind of putting itout, you know, like look, this
is this is a very realpotential.
And you know, um somebody hasto say it, and I guess it's
(45:01):
gonna be us.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (45:02):
Yeah, no, and you know what, that is a
wonderful message.
I really love that because upuntil this point, we've depended
on what others think that weneed.
But as a teacher, you are theone in the classroom and you are
the one that knows what yourobstacles, barriers are, you
know what your wins are, youknow what your students need.
(45:24):
And so you're absolutely right.
Once that tool comes out whereyou yourself can create what you
need, then where does thatleave everybody that up until
this point were seemingly theexperts in telling us what we
need?
And I think that that is a verypowerful and a very spicy hot
take, Marissa.
(45:44):
And I love it.
And I'm all here for it becauseuh, like you said, just being
able to amplify that voice andhearing more teachers out and
now say, hey, you know what?
For right now, yes, we may needyou and depend on you because
obviously you guys have theinfrastructure.
But when that moment comes, Iknow what my student needs and I
(46:05):
can easily build some buildsomething for them for that
specific use case for thatgroup, that small group, that
large group, for the varyinglevels that I may be teaching, I
can easily make it, have itdone, and it's there and it's
mine.
Or I can also see it as thisand this, which is to me, I was
(46:26):
like, hey, this is what would begreat where as a collective, be
able to interchange our toolswith one another in different
districts and say, hey, I likewhat Marissa's doing over there,
and I like what that tool isdoing.
I want to see if I can go aheadand use that here.
And it's like all of a sudden,it's like, whoa, Marissa, your
tool really helps me out here.
(46:46):
And then, hey, Fonz, you've gotthat cool podcasting tool.
I want to try that with mystudents, and the it just
becomes a true community, and weare all sharing the tools that
we build for ourselves, and thenwe can actually say it is
teacher built, as opposed tomany other platforms that say
(47:06):
that are teacher built, but mayhave never had a teacher on
their staff at all, whatsoever.
So spicy take there, Marissa.
I love it, I love it, and thefact that you're presenting with
Bonnie too.
Oh, Bonnie is such a love.
She is wonderful, she has awonderful heart and such a
passion for education.
So I'm very excited and happyfor you.
(47:27):
And so uh please let us knowfor our listeners that may be
attending at tech week.
When is the uh your talk goingto be?
Merissa Sadler-Holder (47:36):
Oh gosh, I was supposed to know that.
Um it will be, I know, it willbe on Wednesday in the
afternoon.
I believe it's uh um uh Ibelieve it's at four.
And I'll double check and ummaybe you can put it in the show
notes.
Yes, because I did not comeprepared.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (47:53):
No, I definitely will put that in the
show notes, and definitely,guys, make sure that you visit
Marissa's website atteachingwithmachines.com.
That will also be in the shownotes, and you can probably
connect also.
I think the best place toconnect with Marissa is also
going to be LinkedIn.
But Marissa, tell our audiencemembers where else they might be
(48:14):
able to connect with you.
Merissa Sadler-Holder (48:16):
Yeah, um, you can just email me directly
at Marissa M-E-R-I-S-S-A atteachingwithmachines.com.
I mean, I'm open.
My emails are open.
I'm more than happy to, youknow, meet with you, zoom with
you, whatever it is that youguys want to talk about.
Um, I just I really wantteachers to know that there is
(48:37):
somebody out there who who whowill help them navigate this.
So um email me.
And then there's also aFacebook uh group called
Teaching with Machines.
You can just kind of go findthat.
And then I'll also send youthat link for Facebook and
LinkedIn.
LinkedIn's kind of where I'vebeen hanging out.
Um, but I also have a weeklynewsletter as well.
(49:00):
And you can find that on my umwebsite,
teachingwithmachines.com.
Also on the website, just knowthat there's a bunch of
templates, ready to go, freedownloads.
Everything's free.
Just, you know, it's reallyjust to help you kind of either
set up AI classroom norms withyour classroom or um what I call
(49:22):
a flexible toolbox where youadd in AI into your class, you
invite it in with boundaries,and you allow your students to
kind of start building their ownliteracy and their own uh
fluency with AI.
So while supporting your owncurriculum.
So um all of that is free foryou guys.
(49:43):
It's a pleasure, and it wasgreat talking to you today for
sure.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (49:47):
So awesome.
And again, I did just hop on toLinkedIn and go to your
profile.
So it'll be October the 22nd,which is that Wednesday, that
Marissa will be talking.
So, and again, we'll definitelyput that in the show notes too
as well.
So if there's anybody that'slistening that's gonna be at Ed
Tech Week, please make sure thatyou do check out that talk with
(50:08):
Marissa and Bonnie.
And you're gonna hear uhMarissa's spicy takes, which I'm
all here for, which is great.
And all of that will be in theshow notes.
But Marissa, before we wrap up,as you know, I always love to
end the show with the followingthree questions.
So hopefully you are ready togo.
So here we go.
Question number one (50:26):
as we know, every superhero has a pain
point or a weakness.
For Superman, kryptoniteweakened him.
So I want to ask you, Marissa,in the current state of
education or AI in education,you can pick either one, or if
you want to give both, whatwould you say is your current
(50:47):
edu kryptonite?
Merissa Sadler-Holder (50:49):
Oh my gosh.
Uh kind of um it's this, I knowit's my I know it's it's
mindset, but the inability to II guess it's really difficult to
kind of see kind of where youyou think things are moving and
you believe things are moving,and know it takes quite a bit to
(51:14):
get there, but the inability tosee the your surroundings and
see where education is actuallystaying put and stagnant, and
you're you're just hoping somuch more to come out of it.
And I think a lot of it ismindset, and I know that Dr.
Mark Isaacs uh Isaacs, thegentleman you had on the last,
(51:38):
by the way, if you're listeningto that, go back and listen to
that podcast.
It is absolutely amazing.
I'm gonna make this man a myfriend.
I don't know how.
He is he's so great.
Everything he said was amazing.
That was an amazing episode.
But kind of this idea thatwe're stuck and we're, you know,
we're going back to the waythings we've always done because
it's always worked.
But the problem is it's it'sjust not working, and nobody
(51:59):
everybody knows that, butnobody's doing anything to make
any changes.
So I I see the change and thedemand, and I think we need to
kind of pair up the demand forwhat our students actually need,
and we just we we just need tomake that mindset shift just
slowly, if if if anything.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (52:20):
No, I love it.
I actually I put out a clipearlier today about our
conversation, and he called itlike cognitive entrenchment.
And it just the where you justdo the same thing every year,
you know, your calendarbasically looks the same, your
lesson plans, your tests, and soon.
And then so you wonder, why arewe why is innovation not
(52:40):
working?
Why are we not innovating?
Well, because you're stuck inthat loop of doing things
continually instead of, like yousaid, like what is working for
the students and what is not?
And let's kind of make thosechanges.
So, yes, definitely uh greatconversation with uh Dr.
Mark Isics, and that'sfantastic.
Uh, question number two,Marissa, is if you could have a
(53:04):
billboard with anything on it,what would it be and why?
Merissa Sadler-Holder (53:13):
I should have prepared for this question.
Um I think I would say thevalue is you.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (53:27):
I like that.
Merissa Sadler-Holder (53:29):
Yeah.
And why?
Because it's true.
You know, I mean, again, likeAI won't, you know, AI I feel
like we can be so creative withAI.
And so I think now we have thisopportunity to do that, but
only you bring that in.
Only you decide what isactually good.
(53:50):
Only you decide if itrepresents your creativity, only
you decide if it's reflectiveof your expertise.
So the value is you without it,it it just simply does not
exist.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (54:03):
Oh, that is powerful.
That is a wonderful billboard.
Like you got me thinking, I'mlike, yes, that is that is a
great message.
I love it.
All right.
Question number three, lastone.
If you could trade places witha single person for a day, who
would that be and why?
Merissa Sadler-Holder (54:20):
I would probably, he's gonna laugh at
this.
I would I would totally changeplaces with Canal.
Kenal Dalal.
I don't know if you know him.
He he's quite the character,but this man is when we talk
about creativity, like I wouldlove to just be in his boots, in
(54:42):
his brain for a day, and justsee the sparks flying and see
where it takes us.
If you don't follow him, he'samazing.
He's on LinkedIn.
He is such a forward thinkervisionary when it comes to AI
and education.
And while I like to say thatI'm kind of a couple steps ahead
(55:02):
of the game, this man islapping me.
So um it's hard to keep up withhim sometimes, but his
excitement and creativity andhuman-centered everything and
just super authentic.
Everybody should follow him.
He's a lovely person, and Iwould love to be him for a day.
Yes.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (55:20):
And I can vouch for that.
He definitely is.
And uh, I'll definitely I'lleven put his his uh info there
in the show notes too.
If you follow him, I promiseyou you will not regret it.
You and just like Marissa says,so much energy, so much
passion, and it's somebodywonderful that you should
definitely connect with and bepart of your network for share.
(55:42):
Marissa, thank you so much fora wonderful conversation this
evening.
It has been an honor and apleasure.
And like I said from the verybeginning, just since we first
connected to see the wonderfulwork that you're doing, where
you have been and where you aregoing.
And I think it's somethingfantastic.
And I love to see that withinthe community.
(56:03):
So much growth.
Keep doing you, keep owningyour shine.
And I'm just excited for whatthe future will bring for you
because I can definitely see youspeaking at many more
conferences, bigger conferences,and you just keep doing it, my
friend.
I appreciate you.
And as always, any guest of myshow is a forever guest.
(56:24):
So next time that you've gotsomething major going on, your
your next book or anything elsethat you're gonna be doing,
you're always welcome back, myfriend.
It's an honor to have you.
Thank you.
Merissa Sadler-Holder (56:36):
Thank you so much for having me.
Dr. Fonz Mendoza (56:38):
Appreciate you.
All right, guys.
And for all our listeners,thank you as always for all of
your support.
Please make sure you check outthis episode and the other 338
episodes that were I promisethat you will find a little
something just for you that youcan sprinkle onto what you are
already doing.
Great.
So please make sure you visitour website at myedtech.life,
(56:59):
myedtech.life.
And again, thank you so much toour wonderful sponsors, Book
Creator, Yellowdig, and Edu8.
I appreciate all of yoursupport.
Like I said, we definitely wantto put out some wonderful
conversations within oureducation space so we can
continue to amplify wonderfulvoices and continue to grow and
(57:19):
learn from one another.
So thank you very much.
And my friends, until nexttime, don't forget, stay techie.
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