August 2, 2024 • 57 mins
In this episode, John and Chris go on a profound journey into the intricate world of biblical translations, specifically comparing John 14:12-28 in the NIV and Catholic versions. You'll learn the deeper significance behind Jesus' repeated use of "amen," extending beyond the simple "very truly" and delving into its profound implications, especially in pivotal passages like John 6.
Next, we tackle the complexities of interpreting scripture and the critical role the Church plays in maintaining doctrinal consistency through the lens of St. Vincent of Lerins. We'll explore historical figures like St. Ignatius of Antioch and early Church councils to illustrate how the Church's authority has been pivotal in distinguishing orthodox teachings from heresies. Our discussion highlights heretical groups such as the Donatans and Arians, showing that debates over doctrine and authority have been a persistent issue since before the 4th century and remain relevant in today's theological discourse.
Finally, we reflect on the journey of faith, examining the challenges and beauty of religious belief within Christianity. Using metaphors like shattered safety glass and spider webs, we illustrate the disorder in the teachings of various Christian denominations while emphasizing the importance of seeking a deeper and consistent understanding of faith. We'll share heartfelt discussions on the role of evidence in forming beliefs and the enduring relevance of these theological debates through the ages. Join us as we navigate these rich and complex topics, offering insights that promise to deepen your understanding of faith and history.
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the my Friend the Friar podcast and
thanks for listening.
If you like my Friend the Friarand want to support us, please
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release.
Thanks again and God bless.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
But I was like man, I was thinking about it the other
day.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
What were?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
they called my Pet Monsters.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Yeah, Bonus episode Chris is on his phone.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I'm looking up my Pet Monsters Shopping the internet.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I was just looking at it.
It just came up the I can'tbelieve those things like 800
yeah 749, because I was gonnabuy one, because I missed it,
because I had one when I was akid.
Oh, here's one.
It'll 249 dollars but anyway Iwas just looking at it because,
(01:04):
um, I was looking up that verse,uh, in the one about the you
can do greater things than Iknow, and one of the little
windows, because I have littlewindows oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So when I went back to thewindows it was uh, my pet
monster was there and uh, and soI was like looking at it
because I miss my Pet Monster.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
My Pet Monster.
Do you remember Teddy Rupskin?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, I remember Teddy Rupskin.
They have a new version ofTeddy Rupskin, but you read to
it and it records your voice andthen you can sit it in there
with your kid.
Oh interesting, While they'regoing to sleep and they can hear
(01:50):
your voice.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
What was the verse in ?
Speaker 2 (01:54):
John.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, whatchapter was it it is?
Let me pull it back up.
It is John 14, 12 through 28.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
All right.
So you want to know somethinginteresting, because here, so
you read yours, I'm going toread my version, all right.
So, and this is oh yeah, do youknow what translation?
Yeah, it's the NIV.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Okay, From biblecom, and I just Googled it, it says
John 14, 12 through 28.
Very truly, I tell you, whoeverbelieves in me will do the
works I have been doing and theywill do even greater things
than these, because I am goingto the Father and I will do
(02:41):
whatever you ask in my name sothat the Father may be glorified
in the Son.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
All right, so mine is one of the approved Catholic
versions.
So it's the new American RE iswhat this app uses.
But this is what I thought wasinteresting, cause I heard
something about this once upon atime, one of those things that
you just remember, the, the onerandom thing.
Okay, so 14, you said yeahthrough 28.
(03:04):
So 12 years starts very truly,or what Very truly, I tell you.
Okay.
So mine says amen, amen.
I say to you, whoever believesin me will do the works that I
do, and will do greater onesthan these, because I'm going to
the Father and whatever you askin my name I will do so that
the Father may be glorified inthe Son.
So it seems almost exactly thesame except for yours starts
(03:25):
very truly, and mine says amen,amen.
So I saw I was watching thisshow where the uh, this group of
, of, um, non-catholicChristians were doing all this.
They're like, we want to do themost like accurate translation
into English as we can.
So we're going to go back to allthe oldest sources of all of
(03:46):
these you know, books and we'regoing to translate them, and the
thing that stuck out to them isthat Jesus says amen a lot.
He says amen, amen, and in mostof the non-Catholic Bible
translations they'll either takeone out or they will translate
(04:07):
it as something like very truly,very truly.
But, like we were talking abouttranslation earlier, you lose
something.
You lose something intranslation, and so the amen,
amen, amen, amen is actuallyvery purposeful, that he's
saying that twice, that he'ssaying that twice, and so it's
kind of like and now this is myown words, but it's like he's
(04:29):
swearing on himself.
So it's not just very truly,it's something much, much more
than just very true, I'm tellingyou the truth.
It's like I'm staking everythingon this and so, anyway, when
you said, very truly, I was likeI wonder if that's an amen,
amen, and so that's why I wantedto look it up, yeah, and I've
heard that before, um, and Ithink I'm, and I I mean it's got
(04:55):
to be dr wiles at the firstbaptist church, arlington.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
He's made comments about that, about the amen, amen
.
If you see, amen, amen, or ifyou start a sentence, if you
like, if we're reading our nivversion, or whatever and it
starts very truly.
He said you can, you can justput amen, amen into it, because
(05:20):
he's saying I this isn't just mesaying this, this is something
that you really need to listento.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Like this is something that's very, very
important.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Yeah, Well, and what's interesting too is like
when you end a prayer with amen,right, and so it's like he is
saying, like when he starts asentence with amen, it's this
hyper-importance, right, Becauseit's the thing that you say at
the end.
So he's starting it with it,but then he's doubling down on
(05:52):
it kind of thing.
Yeah, and so that's really,really interesting because in
one of my favorite verses orparts of Scripture is in John 6,
when he's talking about I amthe bread of life.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
So many times he's like amen, amen.
I say to you, if you do not eatthe flesh of the Son of man,
you have no life within you.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Right, so he's like starting with it.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Amen, amen.
Like you need to listen to this.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Yeah, not only do you need to listen to this, but you
can't not hear this kind ofthing.
This, yeah, not only do youneed to listen to this, but you
can't not hear this kind ofthing.
This is big.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
This is literally life and death right here.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
You know, like amen, amen, you might want to perk
your ears up.
I've said a lot of things, butyou might want to listen to this
one.
You might want to hear this.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
So this is going to be funbecause I just want to pick your
brain.
I want to hear what yourthoughts are.
I've been reading I told youabout this the other day I don't
think I said it on the podcast,but I found I stumbled across
this Saint Vincent so his namein Latin is like Vincentius or
something like that and Istumbled across it and I don't
(06:58):
know how I found it.
Of course, I was watching somevideo and some guy mentioned him
, so I looked it up and I findsome like PDF of the Latin only,
and I was like Googletranslating, trying to like
figure out what it said.
And then I realized I'm surethat somebody's already
translated this to English.
I just go look it up.
So I bought the book and so StVincent of Lorenz and Father
(07:34):
Stephen, whenever he listens tothis, is probably going to be
rolling his eyes because he'sprobably said something about
him like 17 times and I neverheard it or it's just like right
over my head or in one ear, outthe other.
Him, it was a.
He converted to the CatholicChurch and from I don't know
what Protestant denomination,but he, so he converted, and
this was one of the things andthe way he said it was in the
(07:58):
Matrix.
We love our movie referencesaround here, but I always mess
this one up which it's the bluepill or the red pill?
Which pill wakes you up?
I don't remember, dang I, whichit's the blue pill or the red
pill?
Which pill wakes you up?
I don't remember, dang.
I think it's the red pill.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
That's why I want to remember or I could be, I don't
remember, but the whole thingspoiler alert for anyone who's
never seen it somehow.
Um, if in in the movie, right,everyone's there plugged and
everyone's they're plugged intolike they're a human battery,
asleep being fed this computerdream, right, and everything you
(08:29):
experience is a program.
But if you, this guy's offeringMorpheus is offering Neo.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yeah, neo.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, these pills.
He's like two pills, red orblue.
Right, you take one.
You're going to go back tosleep.
You'll wake up.
This will all be a dream.
You'll never.
You're going to go back tosleep.
You'll wake up.
This will all be a dream You'llnever know yeah, and you'll
just move on with your life andeverything will be the way.
It is the red pill, I think.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
The other one.
If you take it, you're going toknow the truth and you're not
going to like it.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah, but you'll know the truth.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
But you'll know it and all this is going to go away
, and so he takes that when hewakes up, yeah, and then you got
two more movies, right?
So anyway, he said this guy washis red pill and he's like, oh
no, so anyway.
So this dude was um, he wrotethis in 434 and it's called the
common, the com comitorycomonitory, like common ittery
(09:32):
whatever, however you say thatword.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Yeah, however you say that.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
But as he writes it he's like this is to help me
remember the things that I'velearned and how to respond in
different situations.
So this is like he's writing itfor himself.
So he knows how to engage withpeople whenever something comes
up, right.
So this is like his note toself blah, blah, blah, right.
And so his big thing is, um,how to combat heresies and um,
(10:05):
in his mind and how to to staytrue to the faith, right.
So if somebody comes in withsomething like how do I know
that that's not true?
How do I stick to what's true?
How do I know that it's true?
Or the other thing is true,right.
And for him it seems like ifit's a novel idea, a new idea,
(10:31):
and it has no historical likekind of bearing in the faith,
he's like it's a heresy.
It could sound completely legit, but if nobody has ever
believed this before, then it'snot part of the faith.
Like someone's just makingstuff up.
So I've been dog-earing in here, um, just to kind of get your
(10:55):
feedback.
I don't know if I'll, if I'llread all of them to you, but
there's a lot of them, I can see.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah, and it's not a very big book.
Yeah, I was gonna say it'sreally really interesting.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Um, okay, so here we go, from chapter two.
It says but here someoneperhaps will ask since the canon
of Scripture is complete andsufficient of itself for
everything, and more thansufficient, what need is there
to join with it the authority ofthe Church's interpretation?
(11:28):
He goes for this reason because, owing to the depth of Holy
Scripture, all do not accept itin one and the same sense, but
one understands its words in oneway, another in another, so
that it seems to be capable ofas many interpretations as there
(11:50):
are interpreters.
And then he goes and he startslisting some heretics.
So he goes, novatian expoundsit one way.
Now, this is in 434, so listento how many novel ideas,
heretics that the church hadstood against to try to maintain
the faith right, novatianexpounds it one way.
(12:12):
Sibelius, another I'm going tobutcher some of these names
Donatus, another.
Arius, eunomius, macedonius,another Macedonius, another.
Fontius, apollinarius,priscillian, another.
Iovinian.
Pelagius, celestis, another.
Lastly, nestorius, another.
So that's like 13 guys.
Okay, therefore, it is verynecessary, on account of so
(12:44):
great intricacies, of suchvarious error, that the rule for
the right understanding of theprophets and the apostles should
be 434.
Yeah, what are your thoughts?
Because, you're one of the bigthings.
This is why I dog-eared thatone before you share your
thoughts.
This is why I dogged that onebefore you share your thoughts
(13:05):
is you've been wondering well,how do I know how someone is
teaching or how they interpretthe?
Bible if that's the right way,or not?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Mm-hmm, just my spitfire answer to that is Jesus
will tell you if it's right orwrong, if you have a strong
enough relationship with him andif you study enough.
Um, that's just kind of thespitfire, because in there, in
(13:34):
all those big words and allthose big names and stuff like
that, what, what I?
What I was thinking the wholetime, you were saying that is it
doesn't need defending, itdoesn't need our defense in
saying that this is right orwrong or anything like that.
It can withstand itself, it cansustain itself.
(13:56):
Jesus doesn't need us to defendhim.
Jesus can sustain himself andJesus is going to continue to
sustain himself Because it saysin there whether you get it this
way or whether you get it thatway or whether you don't get it
at all, scripture, scripture andit's going to be right.
No matter who tries to dictateor translate it, it's going to
be right.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
But how do you know if it's translated right?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah, you have to have a good relationship with
Jesus.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
So you think so, with all these people who are
getting it wrong, you don'tthink they had a good
relationship with Jesus.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
They may have.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
You know, these guys were all bishops and priests.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah, but they could get it wrong, right.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
So then, how do you know if you're not getting it
wrong?
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Man, that's a good question.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
So that's what this whole little book is about.
That's why it's like what's theneed If it's more than
sufficient, what's the need?
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Yeah, Because that's a great point.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
That's why he goes to church.
Yeah, the church is the onlything.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
The church is the only thing, and that's the
concept of going to somebodyelse to figure out if it's right
or wrong.
I'm not saying that's wrongright Because we go to people
who are smarter than us.
If I want to learn math, I goto somebody that's smart in math
(15:24):
.
If I want to go to to, but mathis is history.
I go to somebody that's smarterthan history me, but math is is
way easier to determine if it'sright or wrong, because numbers
are numbers and they eitherequal or they don't yeah right.
Um, scripture's not that easyright, but it can be.
(15:45):
You know, like I don't know howto get it to be easy, I just
man, that's a.
That's a good question because,you know, I genuinely like to
think that I have a lot of, youknow, great ideas and flashy
ways of answering things youknow, yeah.
(16:05):
But I mean, yeah, I'm surethose guys had great
relationships with Jesus andtheir bishops.
I don't know, man, you tell me,what about this one?
Speaker 1 (16:22):
So he says so, he says so he.
This is like a littlecommentary on St Paul's letter
to the Galatians.
He says I should haveunderlined instead of just
dogging the things.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Yeah, there's a lot on those pages, huh.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
I know man.
Um, okay, let me do this one.
So it says which being the case.
(17:05):
There's a lot on those pages.
Huh, I know man.
Okay, let me do this one.
So it says receive any otherdoctrine than that which he has
received from the church, thatelect vessel, that teacher of
the Gentiles, that trumpet ofthe apostles, that preacher
whose commission was to thewhole earth, that man who was
caught up to heaven cries andcries again in his epistles to
all, always, in all places.
If any man preaches a newdoctrine.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Let him be accursed.
So the answers in the church,uh, I mean, that's what he's
saying.
If you want to know if it'strue or not, what does the
church say about it?
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yeah and so yeah, like this chapter is like why
eminent men are permitted by Godto become authors of novelties
in the church, yeah, yeah.
But some will ask how is itthen that certain excellent
persons and of position in thechurch are often permitted by
(18:04):
god to preach novel doctrines,like it's just, it's funny,
right.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
like he's just keeps chewing on it, but it blows my
mind that this was written in434, like it's the same things
going on now yeah.
It's the same exact things thatare happening now.
A priest now can ask the samequestions that he asked in 434.
So in 434, there's people thatare like I know better than the
(18:30):
scripture, I know better thanwhat Jesus is saying and what
God is saying.
I know better in 434.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Yeah, one of the, so one of the big heresies that he
talks about.
Okay, so heresy he defines as ateaching that is not consistent
with the rest of the church.
Okay, so the first time theword Catholic is used.
Ignatius of Antioch.
(19:01):
He was one of the disciples ofPeter, who was the Bishop of
Antioch.
He was executed by the Romansin like 107 or something like
that.
And so he writes letters, and inhis letters he says he calls
the church Catholic and in hisletters he says he calls the
church Catholic and what theword Catholic means is basically
(19:22):
universal or of the whole.
So in this, so when, so thateven applies right now.
So the Catholic church issimply the word.
Who believe the totality of thefaith and we believe it
everywhere, all at the same time.
So there's not like a SouthernCatholic or something like that,
(19:51):
it's just Catholic right iswhat it's supposed to be.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
So, but there are different Catholics because
there's Orthodox and then,because I know we have talked
about this before.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
So how does?
That play into that.
So Orthodox, okay, so the wordsstart to have certain meanings.
So that's a good question,because it kind of plays into
this.
So the Christians who hadheresies or who taught heresies
and one of the ones he talksabout a lot in this is whether
(20:31):
God or sorry, whether Jesus wasfully God or yeah, fully God or
fully man or only one, orwhatever, or it was like fully
man with God's soul, or fully.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
God with man's soul, something like that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
So everyone who taught one of these heresies,
instead of being called Catholic, they were called by their
heretical teaching.
So instead of them adhering tothe teaching, that is the whole
faith, it's a very specificfaith.
(21:09):
So they would be like one ofthose guys' name was, I think,
donation or something like that.
So they're the Donatans, right.
So instead of Catholics,they're Donatans.
So then that makes sense nowbecause of, or the Aryans, right
, Because there was an Aryanheresy kind of thing.
(21:30):
So anyway, so they were knownby the teaching that they
believed, and that makes sensekind of now, because, well, to a
certain degree, because thenyou have Catholics and then you
have Protestants and theirheresy is to stand apart from
the church, and so then youstart.
I guess the names can maybe geta little funny after that, but
(21:53):
they all basically are.
The name is trying to describesomething about that.
Basically, the name is tryingto describe something about that
community of faith.
So, like Baptist, baptism is abig thing.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Methodists.
I guess the methodology is abig thing or something like that
, right?
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Presbyterian like yeah, and so Orthodox means the
how do I say this in light, theway I understand it is like
really old, like the originalkind of thing.
Okay.
So in this, a lot of times hesays, like how do you know your
(22:30):
faith, that you're following theright faith?
It has to be Orthodox, okay.
So well then, what does theOrthodox Church mean now?
Well, now it kind of stands inopposition of the Catholic
Church or not opposition, likewe're against each other so much
as we're not together.
Right, it's a way to define agroup kind of thing.
(22:54):
But still it means that theyfollow the oldest form of the
faith, right.
And so in the Orthodox churchesyou do have this kind of weird
thing that happens.
So you have like the GreekOrthodox Church and the Russian
Orthodox Church, and so itbecomes very like culturally
(23:18):
relevant, like where you areLike there's not a United States
Orthodox Church.
If there's an Orthodox Churchhere, it's going to be like a
Russian Orthodox Church.
So there's like a cultural linkright, so it's kind of weird,
but you do have some Orthodoxchurches who are still in
communion with the CatholicChurch and so they would be like
(23:39):
Orthodox Catholic churches, soit's kind of a weird kind of way
.
So in the Catholic Church too,you have what are called rites,
and the rite is kind of defininghow the liturgy is performed,
and so when somebody says RomanCatholic, it means it's the
(24:01):
Latin right church, and so youcan have, like, if there's some
kind of Eastern Catholic church,they probably have a different
right, which is something that'svery traditional to that area
and their culture, but it'sstill.
(24:23):
It's all of the teachings,though.
All of the faith is all stillthe same faith, it's just the
method that they have.
The church service is different, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
So it's just trying to understand it.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
The teachings are exactly the same in the Orthodox
or Roman Orthodox as it is inthe Western Orthodox.
Is it a Western Orthodox or?
Speaker 1 (24:56):
No, I guess the farthest Western Orthodox would
be just the Latin Rite Church,which is Roman Catholic.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
So what is the Catholic Church in the United
States?
The Latin Rite so it's theoriginal teachings.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yes, yeah, yeah.
So when the.
So what's kind of interestingis when the, the father steven
and I just did some.
Really he's a big history nutso like he likes teaching about
this stuff, and so we just did acouple episodes on this and I
thought it was reallyfascinating how the whole schism
between the east and the westright, um, a lot of this stuff
(25:37):
happened because of politicalreasons had nothing to do with
the church, because there was noseparation from church and
state.
Back then, the king or emperorof a place was supposed to be
Christian, and so he wassupposed to be approaching his
or engaging his relationshipsaround the world like God first
through him, instead of all youguys to God.
(25:58):
Right, god was supposed to becoloring his ink, so to speak,
and so everything was all justtogether.
And so then there, of course,there's all these political
things that go on Noteverybody's a good person, kind
of thing and then whenConstantinople gets sacked by, I
guess, the Muslims or somethinglike that, the bishops from
(26:20):
over there, they like flee andthey flee to Rome and they were
like they were about to likekind of fix all their problems
and like the emperor over therewas like any of y'all who don't
come back and join my side.
(26:41):
Any of y'all who, um don't comeback and and join my side, I'll
kill you so you can stay, or youcan come back and do it my way,
yeah, and so they stayed and solike.
So then he's like, okay, I'mgonna appoint my own bishops.
And so then, because he's incharge over there, and so like
everything just kind ofcontinued to separate.
But there's like all thispolitical like intrigue in the
background stuff going on andthen those kinds of but.
But all of those Greek thinkersthat came over like triggered
(27:04):
the Renaissance period and howthey thought about stuff, and
then that trickled forward, youknow, for the next few hundred
years until Martin Luther, andit was really interesting to see
how it all like kind of linkedtogether, yeah, but anyway.
So for them the big divide waswho's in charge, right, and so
for.
(27:26):
And a lot of Orthodox peoplelike to argue that the Pope is
not in charge, kind of thing.
But what's funny is if you goand you read the documents from
the councils where all thebishops get together for like
the first thousand years,there's many instances of them
citing the superiority of thePope and like we should listen
(27:47):
to him and here, here he did agood thing, kind of thing.
So it's kind of funny.
So they're just kind of backingout on this thing that they've
already been agreeing to.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
And that's even something like in here I have
one of these dog-eared.
It's kind of interesting, hesays, because he's talking about
the Pope right here.
He says when then all menprotested against the novelty
and they're talking about like aheresy that they're trying to
work out in the church right.
(28:17):
When, then, all men protestedagainst the novelty and the
priesthood everywhere, each inhis zeal prompted him, opposed
it.
Pope Stephen of blessed memory,prelate of the apostolic see.
See is a funny word, for likechair I don't know why it's like
.
This is my throne For anyway,prelate of the apostolic see, in
conjunction, indeed, with hiscolleagues, but yet himself, the
(28:42):
foremost, withstood it.
Thinking it right, I doubt notthat, as he exceeded all others
in the authority of his place,so that he should also in the
devotion of his faith, so likeeven in 434, he's saying like
the Pope like yeah he's equal,but he's like the first of
(29:04):
equals, right?
So, anyway, so that's the kindof big divide.
Is the Latin Rite, the CatholicChurch.
We understand that there's atiebreaker and it's the Pope,
right, he's the guy like Peter,is just an apostle like the rest
of them, but he's a little bitspecial.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yeah, he's like listen to him.
All the other ones listen tohim.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah, and so that's the Pope.
But the Orthodox churchesbecause the ones that went back
and they started appointingtheir own bishops and stuff
they're like no, we're in chargeof ourselves.
And so there has been a lotmore development of theology
since that schism in 1100 on theLatin side and not a whole lot
of development of theology onthe Orthodox side because, they
(29:51):
can't get together and sortthings out.
They just argue or theyexcommunicate each other.
So it's like I can.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
They don't have a referee.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Basically.
So if I was Greek Catholic orsorry Greek Orthodox, I could go
to a Ukrainian Orthodox churchfor Mass, or I can go to a
Russian one for Mass, but it'sbecause neither one of them have
excommunicated the Greek church.
But if I was Ukrainian Orthodox, I can't go to the Russian
Orthodox church because they'veexcommunicated usreek church.
But if I was ukrainian orthodox, I can't go to the russian
orthodox church because they'veexcommunicated us.
(30:20):
And if I was russian orthodox,I can't go there, but we can
both go to the greek one, and soit's like that.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Yeah, like you said, there's no referee, there's
nobody to like hey y'all settledown, let's work it out yeah,
there's no interference.
Yeah, that's interesting yeah Ichuckle because this is in 434
yeah he wrote this in 434 andit's like so prevalent today.
(30:45):
What he's talking about is soprevalent today.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yeah, it's crazy man yeah, and, and this guy, like
truth be told, I think this guythe the area he was in Lorenz,
there was a way of thinking andI forget what it was because I
haven't finished the whole book,but there's a way of thinking
that is, I think it ended upbeing classified heretical, and
(31:11):
so it's kind of funny because,like, apparently, when you read
people who like really study him, they're like was he a heretic
too, Was he writing all thesewonderful things?
Speaker 2 (31:21):
but he was a heretic too.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
But that's kind of his whole thing is the only way
you know is because the Churchpersists and the things that are
true are always gonna be therein one way shape or form.
And can our theology grow?
Can it adapt over timeAbsolutely, but only if it is
holding true to the originaltheology.
You can't just make upsomething new and say this is
(31:46):
the way it is.
And that thing always struck melike with Martin Luther, where
he's like wait a minute, no, no,no, no, you don't need the
church.
Well, this guy like what?
Almost no.
1,100 years before MartinLuther was like yeah, if you
don't have the church, you don'thave anything.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
That's, I mean, what I'm getting out of.
That is like to find the answer.
You go to the church.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
And the church is everything Like it's everything
is through the church.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Yeah, so listen to this one.
The title of this chapter isHeretics Appeal to Scripture
that they May More EasilySucceed in Deceiving, he says
here.
Possibly someone may ask doheretics also appeal to
scripture?
They do indeed, and with avengeance, for you may see them
scamper through every singlebook of Holy Scripture, through
(32:40):
the books of Moses, the books ofKings, the Psalms, the Epistles
, the Gospels, the Prophets,whether among their own people
or among strangers, in privateor in public, in speaking or in
writing, at convivial meetings,whatever that is, or in the
(33:11):
streets.
Hardly ever do they bringforward, and he says and the
rest of those pests, and youwill see an infinite heap of
instances.
Hardly a single page which doesnot bristle with plausible
quotations from the NewTestament or the Old.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
That's I mean.
Was not Jesus tempted by thedevil?
Speaker 1 (33:36):
with the devil quoted .
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Yeah, scripture adam that's when you were reading
that, I was like that's exactlywhat the devil did yeah he took
scripture and to go back to whatwe were talking about in the in
the podcast, try to use his ownink.
And jesus was like no, that'snot god's ink that's your ink.
(33:59):
And that's not right.
So, yeah, that's exactly what.
And again, it happens every daynow because and a lot of this
you know, when you're thinkingabout this, I'm thinking about
the Joel Osteen's of the worldand oh man, the guy, that man,
he's a big one.
There's several big ones, and Ican't remember all their names
(34:20):
right now, but those BennyHinn's, another one.
All those guys are takingScripture and these people that
come to their church and filltheir stands and fill their
pockets with money.
They're hearing Scripture.
Yeah, but it's just you know,Joel Osteen won't talk about
anything bad.
Joel olstein won't talk aboutanything bad like he don't talk
(34:41):
about anything bad.
You can't have the bible inscripture without having bad bad
comes with it, and that's whatthis, this, this guy's saying,
this vicente guy, or however yousay his name vincent, yeah I'm
looking across and I forgot myglasses.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
But Vincent, he's got a glorious beard, by the way,
it is.
It's pretty nice, it's envious.
But that's what he's saying islike these guys are coming up
here and they're spitting allthis stuff out here and people
are following them.
You know the Aryans, or not theAryans?
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Those guys in the Donovans or whatever.
They're all listening to whatthese guys are speaking and
they're like oh, I like that,I'm going to go with that guy.
Oh, I like that guy, I'm goingto go with that guy.
Well, it's the same with thenominations.
Now you know you've got Baptist, but you also have Southern and
you have Northern.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Baptist.
Is it Northern or is it justnon-Southern?
I think it's just Baptist, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Baptist, because I was like I've never heard
Northern Baptist, but I thinkit's Baptist and then Southern
Baptist.
I think there's ReformedBaptist.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
There's Reformed Baptist, and then you have
Assembly of God and Pentecostal,which are kind of similar but
they're different.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
And you have Presbyterian and Methodist and
Mormon and I mean you just have,you know, lutheran.
You go on and on and on becauseit's like oh, I like that part.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Yeah, I heard somebody saying it was like he
grew up thinking that.
He grew up thinking that it mayhave been the guy who was
talking about this guy too, andthat video I was watching about
this guy too.
In that video I was watching,but he felt like no, no, no, it
was somebody else.
I just remember who it was.
I don't remember the guy's name, but I do remember someone else
.
He was saying he always thoughtthat Christianity was supposed
to be like safety glass thatjust got hit real hard with a
(36:28):
hammer and it just like spiderweb shatters out, but it doesn't
break.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
And it's just supposed to be all these
different things because, nobodycan agree on anything.
Everybody has their owninterpretation, and this is just
the way it's supposed to beyeah and this is how we all get
to heaven together that's wildto think like that, you know,
yeah and and he, he again, heultimately converted but,
because he was like it never satright with me that nobody
(36:55):
seemed to agree on anything.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Yeah like it's.
It's again.
Where's the referee?
You?
Know like you could just go anddo whatever you want and and
preach whatever you want,however, you feel this is what I
think this says.
So I'm just gonna go start achurch that says this is what I
think it says.
Yep, that's, that's not right.
Yeah, and I don't think any.
I well, I think there are a lotof very good intentioned people
out there, of course.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
I talk about it all and I don't think any—well, I
think there are a lot of verygood-intentioned people out
there.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Of course I talk about it all the time.
I don't think there's anybodyin First Baptist Church
Arlington that ever taught meanything, at least the leaders
in the church.
I know there were some churchmembers that we didn't always
get along with, but the leadersin the church, they never had
any ill will towards me or theywere trying to lead me in any
way that they didn't believe wasthe truth.
(37:43):
Yeah, and again, I wouldn't bewhere I am right now without
First Baptist Church Arlington.
But I just know that there'ssomething more than that and
it's because if thatdenomination says this and this
denomination says this and that,well, who's right?
(38:03):
Yeah, that's that shattered,safety glass.
Right, yeah, that safety glassthat shattered.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
Yeah, and his little icon.
He's holding a scroll and itsays Let ye, yet ye, hold fast
to that which has been believedeverywhere, always and by all
right, like that's his, thatantiquity of this fit of.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
The belief has to be the root of anything yeah right
um I think about whenever thatyou, you talk about that, that,
that spider web, you know thatsafety glass, that's it's a good
image.
It is.
It's.
It's a very good image becausewhen you look at it, all you see
is chaos.
You know, because if you thinkof a safety glass being
(38:46):
shattered, when you look at it,you're like man, something bad
happened.
But when you, when you'resupposed to look at christianity
, you're not supposed to look at, something bad happen.
Don't get me wrong.
Something bad happened becausejesus but you know what I mean
you're not supposed to be like,oh, that's bad yeah that's chaos
you don't look at, but that'show it is.
Yeah, if you're, if you're anoutsider and you come over here
(39:08):
and see all the craziness ofwhat america has and this is no
dog on america, because that'swhat makes america great is you
can believe whatever you want tobelieve.
That's what god says too.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
You can believe whatever you want to believe,
but it's like man what in theworld are y'all doing over here
yeah, um that one of the thingsthat he and this is what I think
happens a lot of times is he'stalking about these different um
heresies is you have right?
Because he's talking about howto, why do?
Why are imminent men permitted?
Speaker 2 (39:39):
by God to do this stuff Permitted, you know.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
And he's saying so.
I think what happens issomebody is just wrestling with
something, kind of the wayyou're saying.
It's hard for me to comprehendthat like the divine part of
Jesus.
I can get the human part.
Well, some of these arespecifically about those kinds
of heresies.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Like, well, God would , or Jesus was just a man, right
, or the Holy Spirit moved intohim at a certain point in time
and that's when he started doingholy stuff.
I don't know like whateverright, All these different
thoughts and probably whathappened is this guy, who loves
God, can't figure it out.
He can't exist in that tensionbetween the two points that he
(40:21):
can't comprehend.
Yeah, and so in his mind he goesI have to make this make sense.
And he shifts one way and he'slike all right, my brain can
accept that, I'm gonna run withit.
And there's thousands of peoplein the world who go oh my
goodness, that makes sense nowtoo, thank you.
(40:42):
And then they follow right.
But this guy of St Vincent'sgoing like nay, nay, that's not
what you're supposed to do andit's not to say that right,
because we've talked about, wehave an intellect we're supposed
to be able to figure out.
God wouldn't be there and belike just accept it.
Right, he wants you to try tounderstand.
Him and it should make sense asmuch as possible to you, right?
(41:06):
So I think that when thisMartin Luther right, he's like I
can't ever merit, I can't earnmy way to heaven, I can't any of
this stuff.
Like the church is telling methat like I have to keep working
on myself my whole life, Ican't like I'll never get there.
(41:27):
And then all of a sudden hegoes.
But wait, I don't have to, Ijust have to have faith alone.
That's it.
Well, faith alone is never inthe Bible, except for in James
when he says works without faithis dead or something like that,
and so in his brain somethingclicked and it made sense to him
and he felt better about it.
(41:48):
And then, as he shared thatwith people, it made sense to
other people and they all wantto follow.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
But we can't.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
We got to be careful, I guess, is the trick.
Yeah, you have to be verycareful, you know, but we can't
we gotta be careful, I guess?
Speaker 2 (41:58):
is the trick?
Yeah, you, you have to be verycareful and play to win, not to
not lose.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Throwback.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Yeah, that's just what.
When you were talking aboutthat, that's what was in my mind
is like don't take the easy wayout and plan to not lose is the
easy way out.
You got to play to win so it'slike what is?
Speaker 1 (42:26):
how are you supposed to navigate that in in, because
we've talked about this beforetoo.
Like there are people who arelike uh, who are born into a
faith and that's just the onlything.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
that's Because that's all they know.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
Right, but what happens when you start like Neo
and the Matrix?
You?
Speaker 2 (42:44):
start realizing that there's something else there,
like what is it Like?
You start noticing thedifferences and the things that
don't sit right.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Yeah, like you start going, is that glass supposed to
be like that?
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Right.
You know what this isinteresting?
Because this is like we weretalking about reasoning the
other day.
How do we come to know stuff?
Because any kind of line oflogic that we follow can give us
the wrong answer.
The logic can be sound, but itcan give us the wrong answer.
Right, Like the whole.
A equals B.
If A equals B and B equals C,then A equals C.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Well, okay, B equals C, then A equals C.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Well, okay, yeah, but you can get there and still get
the wrong answer.
Oh yeah, right, so if Chris isa man and Chris is a man's name,
then all men's name is Chris orsomething like that, right.
Like you can get there andthat's maybe sorry philosophy
majors out there who are justgoing.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
No, you ruined it.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
But, yeah, you can get to the wrong answer with
good logic, kind of thing.
And so we often want and thisis maybe the fault or the danger
of the heresy, right is, wevery often want that one piece
of evidence that's going to tellus what's right, to tell us
(43:59):
what's right where.
Instead we should be picking upall the pieces of evidence
around us and trying tounderstand, you know, what is
what is most probably yeah, thetruth because, again, you can't.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
You can't live your life based on proof alone,
because you, you can't prove, Ican't prove that this building
is not going to crumble rightnow.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
I can't prove that, but I can take the evidence in
the fact that it's built sturdy,it's structurally sound and
it's going to hold us.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
That's proof, but's?
I mean, it's not, it's notproof.
Sorry, it's evidence, but it'snot proof yeah that it's gonna
be so when you say that, yeah,we have to take the evidence
around us to, because if you, Imean if you try to base and
there's a guy that I listened to, he's man, he's, he's so
awesome and I can never rememberhis name, but he says this a
(44:57):
lot, he goes to a lot I think Imight have mentioned him on the
last podcast or whatever, maybesometime before but he goes to
colleges, campuses, and all ofthem, all of them want proof,
proof, proof, proof, proof.
And he's so much all the timesays do you live your life based
on so proof?
And they're like, yeah, and hewas like you're lying because
you can't, because you go tosleep at night, you can't prove
(45:20):
that your dorm, your, yourroommate, is not going to stab
you in the back when you'reasleep.
Yep, but the evidence thaty'all have formed in the
relationship leads you tobelieve that your roommate is
not going to stab you in theback.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
Well, you relate that to the to and again again.
I think we talked about itbefore, maybe not on the podcast
, but I know you and I havetalked about it.
We'll believe so quickly thatNapoleon was.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
Oh yeah, that's right .
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Yeah, yeah Was real, him, and like Julius Caesar and
all these great historicalfigures, there's not a person on
the planet that was aneyewitness to whatever to them
being born or them being alive.
There's nobody on this planetthat lived during their time,
yeah, but we're so quick tobelieve that those guys were
real and were true, based oneyewitness testimony through
(46:09):
written uh documents and in inbooks throughout the years that
were like hundreds of years,hundreds of years but yet we're
so quick to say, well, goddidn't exist, but God is based
on eyewitness testimony.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
Jesus wasn't real yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
But there's eyewitnesses.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
Probably more eyewitnesses to Jesus than to
Napoleon, and Caesar and all ofthem.
So why?
Speaker 1 (46:38):
Yeah, it's so interesting.
And because, yeah, because youcannot live your life that way,
like it doesn't make any senseto live any part of your life
that way.
So, even like I heard some guytalking, somebody was asking him
like how do I know that Godexists right?
And he's like there's no singlepiece of evidence.
But a good metaphor for what hesaid would be if I asked you
(46:59):
how do you know your wife lovesyou?
Yeah, well, you can't say well,here's the one thing that I
know my wife loves me because ofthis.
No, it's all of the evidencetogether added up where you go.
Yeah, I know my wife loves me,yeah, right.
So you look around, yeah, Iknow God exists, yeah, right.
And then, yeah, not just thatthere's a deity, that there's
some kind of God out there,because you look at the evidence
(47:22):
, yeah, I believe that Jesus wasa real guy, that Jesus was.
Oh, father Stephen's calling me.
Sorry, I'll have to.
Oh, I actually wonder if I cananswer him.
Hold on a second.
Let's try this.
I'm going to put him on speakerNice Padre and put him on
speaker Nice Padre.
I'm recording a podcast episodewith Chris and now you're on it
(47:45):
.
Oh, okay, I better let you go.
Yeah, I'll call you when I'mdone.
Okay, all right, love you, loveyou, Bye.
His ears were burning, man.
His ears were burning.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
But it's.
It's the evidence that yourwife has provided you to believe
that she loves you.
Yeah, and it's evidence thatyou provide her that she
believes that you, that you loveher yeah but's.
There's no way to 100% provethat my wife loves me or that
(48:24):
she believes that I love her.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
And I it.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
I was watching again another reel and they were given
all these like astronomical,like it's.
It's like this hard for eightmiracles to even happen and it's
this hard, even harder, for 40miracles to even happen and even
harder than but it's beenscientifically proven that Jesus
performed over 300.
(48:51):
Yeah, it's been scientificallyproven.
Yeah, but people can't believethat Even though it's been
scientifically proven.
Yeah, people still don'tbelieve it.
Yep, yeah, it's so like it'swild man.
It's wild man.
But don't believe that napoleonwas napoleon and caesar was
(49:12):
caesar and george washington wasgeorge washington and abraham
lincoln was Abraham, you know,but it's solely based on
eyewitness testimony of thosepeople being alive that the
people today believe thosepeople were alive, on eyewitness
testimony.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
Yeah, and so so we're all, and so often we want that
red pill.
Speaker 2 (49:35):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
That's going to give us the truth, and that's it.
And then you know, everythingchanges.
But, I think the challenge forall of us right, and I did this
too, because I was raisedCatholic and then I completely
walked away from the church.
I walked away from God, Iclaimed to be atheist, and all
that kind of stuff right, but atsome point in time God, in his
(49:56):
mercy, slapped me in the back ofthe head and shook me real hard
and brought me back.
And then my question was thenwhat is the truth?
Because Jesus claims to be thetruth, but looking around at the
safety glass, it's a mess, andso I think that the challenge
(50:17):
for all of us is to is to how dowe find the evidence that gives
us what is most probably thetruth?
Yeah, you know and and then, um, are we doing the best we can
with that?
Yeah, what are we doing withthat evidence?
Yeah, you know, yeah, I thinkthere's, there's no other way to
look at it.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
There's no other way to.
Are we doing the best?
Speaker 1 (50:38):
we can with that?
Speaker 2 (50:39):
Yeah, what are we doing with that evidence?
Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, Ithink there's no other way to
look at it.
There's no other way to decidewhether we believe it or not.
What evidence is there and whatdo we do with that evidence?
Speaker 1 (50:51):
Yeah, and for me the thing that I did is I was
reading these old guys.
Yeah, Because I was like, well,I wonder what exists.
I'm like, oh, guys who actuallyknew the apostles wrote stuff
down.
I wonder what they wrote.
And that's pretty strongevidence to me.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
Eyewitness testimony yeah Right.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
Yeah, and it's like when was?
It's like your grandfather wasprobably born in the early 1900s
1908.
Speaker 2 (51:17):
No 1903.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
Okay, so that's your grandfather.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
That's my grandfather .
That's my dad's dad.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
Okay.
So not only do we have guys whoknew the apostles and wrote of
them, but then like, and youknow a lot about your dad's dad,
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
But then like, and you know alot about your dad's dad, mm-hmm
.
Okay, we have things written bythe disciples of the apostles.
(51:43):
Right, like Ignatius was adisciple of Peter, we have
things written by his disciples.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
So you think he probably knows Peter pretty well
, yeah, right.
And so, like a lot of times,people go oh, something was
written in the 300s or 400s.
Those guys were not that faraway.
Speaker 2 (52:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
Like they knew the guy that it's like their grand,
their great grandfather or theirgrandfather of the faith was
one of the apostles.
Speaker 2 (52:09):
A lot of times.
My great grandfather was bornin the 1800s.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
Did you ever meet him ?
Speaker 2 (52:15):
No.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:16):
Never met him but, I, know of him because my papa
told me about him.
Yeah, yeah yeah, and my dadtold me what he knows about him,
but I believe, based on theireyewitness testimony, that my,
my great-grandfather was alive.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
Yeah, you know and you know, it's what.
The last thing I think isreally kind of interesting about
this kind of stuff, because Ihear a lot of people like um, my
um, my father-in-law, I'd loveto have my father-in-law like on
this.
I don't think he'd, ever itwould.
Um, out of respect, I don'tthink he would but their church
of Christ.
So they're very Bible literaland um, they believe that the
(52:51):
church of Christ is the, the,it's the true church and it's
the true church.
Because if their littlecongregation doesn't work out
super paraphrasing, not tryingto be offensive but if it
doesn't work out, it's becausethey weren't being true to the
church.
If their church is true, thenit persists, kind of thing,
right.
So if you're trying to teachthings that are untrue, the
(53:13):
church doesn't last.
So again, super nutshell.
So again, super nutshell.
But I'm saying all that becausethis St Vincent's writing about
all these heresies in here andhe writes about the divinity of
(53:38):
Jesus, the Trinity, all of thesekinds of things like this,
right, and there's not once thathe writes about.
So it's very clear that ifsomebody had a novel idea, if
somebody had a new idea, ifsomebody tried to introduce
something new into Christianity,people were throwing a fit Like
they were not standing for it,right, and even if it was real,
(54:02):
real popular like some of theseguys, like the Arian heresy was
real popular and I think he saysthat there may have been a time
where most of the people of thechurch believed the heresy, but
when all the bishops gottogether and they argued it out,
the Holy Spirit won and itclarified the issue.
Right, so God is, or Jesus istruly God, fully man kind of
(54:25):
thing.
Okay, so not once.
Are they writing?
Is he writing about, if thereare, if it's appropriate that
there are priests, bishops and apope, and my father-in-law's
church like he'll all day longlike there are no priests in the
Bible, well, for the Christians, right, like never talks about
(54:47):
that there's a pope, never talksabout that there are priests
and that there's all thisEucharist and stuff like that
right.
Like all that stuff is made up,well, they would have been
writing and arguing about itreally early in the church,
because in this he says he talksabout the Pope, he talks about
your bishop, he talks about thepriests, right, and so that was
(55:08):
kind of evidence.
To me too, it's like, well,maybe somebody is people out
there believe stuff that they'veheard and they don't know the
historical nature of it, right,and that's kind of goes back to
believe what?
What does he say?
What's been believed everywhere, always and by all kind of
thing?
I don't know.
I just thought it was really,really interesting stuff, yeah
(55:31):
it is, man, it is.
Speaker 2 (55:33):
And again, like, where do I go to find what is
right?
Well, according to that guy,it's the church.
Speaker 1 (55:50):
Yeah.
You know, I'll have to let youborrow it when I'm done
bookmarking it up.
Speaker 2 (55:55):
Yeah, and it's Jesus.
You know, that's I meanobviously he's the answer, but
there's so many people out therethat have a different answer to
that question or like a notmaybe a different answer jesus
always answer but like adifferent version of what jesus
says yeah, so man, what did wesay we're going to talk about
(56:18):
next time?
Speaker 1 (56:18):
I don't remember.
Speaker 2 (56:18):
I don't either what did we say we're gonna talk
about next time?
I don't remember.
I don't either.
What did we say, give me asecond, I'll come to it.
And I don't remember I don'tremember either we got off on
this man and I forgot there yougo man well, we going to talk
(56:38):
about something.
Speaker 1 (56:39):
Yeah, I have a feeling you and I will pop into
the office at work and be like,hey, this thing that I saw, yeah
, and then we'll be like hold ontime out, let's just go talk
about it, all right, man,because that's usually how it
happens.
But there was something thatLike oh, that's good, that's
good, it'll come to us.
Yeah Well, thanks for hangingout with me.
Speaker 2 (56:58):
Yeah, I appreciate it .
This is always fun.
It's always a good time.
Speaker 1 (57:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (57:01):
That was cool that Father Stevens jumped in.
Speaker 1 (57:03):
Yeah, can't wait for him to hear it.
Speaker 2 (57:06):
Yeah, all right, cool man.
Well, see you, see you when Isee you.
Welcome to the my Friend the Friar podcast and
thanks for listening.
If you like my Friend the Friarand want to support us, please
consider subscribing orfollowing us.
If you haven't already done so,and if you found us on YouTube,
then don't forget to click thenotification bell when you
subscribe so you'll be notifiedof new episodes when they
release.
Thanks again and God bless.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
But I was like man, I was thinking about it the other
day.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
What were?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
they called my Pet Monsters.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Yeah, Bonus episode Chris is on his phone.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I'm looking up my Pet Monsters Shopping the internet.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I was just looking at it.
It just came up the I can'tbelieve those things like 800
yeah 749, because I was gonnabuy one, because I missed it,
because I had one when I was akid.
Oh, here's one.
It'll 249 dollars but anyway Iwas just looking at it because,
(01:04):
um, I was looking up that verse,uh, in the one about the you
can do greater things than Iknow, and one of the little
windows, because I have littlewindows oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So when I went back to thewindows it was uh, my pet
monster was there and uh, and soI was like looking at it
because I miss my Pet Monster.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
My Pet Monster.
Do you remember Teddy Rupskin?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, I remember Teddy Rupskin.
They have a new version ofTeddy Rupskin, but you read to
it and it records your voice andthen you can sit it in there
with your kid.
Oh interesting, While they'regoing to sleep and they can hear
(01:50):
your voice.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
What was the verse in ?
Speaker 2 (01:54):
John.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, whatchapter was it it is?
Let me pull it back up.
It is John 14, 12 through 28.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
All right.
So you want to know somethinginteresting, because here, so
you read yours, I'm going toread my version, all right.
So, and this is oh yeah, do youknow what translation?
Yeah, it's the NIV.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Okay, From biblecom, and I just Googled it, it says
John 14, 12 through 28.
Very truly, I tell you, whoeverbelieves in me will do the
works I have been doing and theywill do even greater things
than these, because I am goingto the Father and I will do
(02:41):
whatever you ask in my name sothat the Father may be glorified
in the Son.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
All right, so mine is one of the approved Catholic
versions.
So it's the new American RE iswhat this app uses.
But this is what I thought wasinteresting, cause I heard
something about this once upon atime, one of those things that
you just remember, the, the onerandom thing.
Okay, so 14, you said yeahthrough 28.
(03:04):
So 12 years starts very truly,or what Very truly, I tell you.
Okay.
So mine says amen, amen.
I say to you, whoever believesin me will do the works that I
do, and will do greater onesthan these, because I'm going to
the Father and whatever you askin my name I will do so that
the Father may be glorified inthe Son.
So it seems almost exactly thesame except for yours starts
(03:25):
very truly, and mine says amen,amen.
So I saw I was watching thisshow where the uh, this group of
, of, um, non-catholicChristians were doing all this.
They're like, we want to do themost like accurate translation
into English as we can.
So we're going to go back to allthe oldest sources of all of
(03:46):
these you know, books and we'regoing to translate them, and the
thing that stuck out to them isthat Jesus says amen a lot.
He says amen, amen, and in mostof the non-Catholic Bible
translations they'll either takeone out or they will translate
(04:07):
it as something like very truly,very truly.
But, like we were talking abouttranslation earlier, you lose
something.
You lose something intranslation, and so the amen,
amen, amen, amen is actuallyvery purposeful, that he's
saying that twice, that he'ssaying that twice, and so it's
kind of like and now this is myown words, but it's like he's
(04:29):
swearing on himself.
So it's not just very truly,it's something much, much more
than just very true, I'm tellingyou the truth.
It's like I'm staking everythingon this and so, anyway, when
you said, very truly, I was likeI wonder if that's an amen,
amen, and so that's why I wantedto look it up, yeah, and I've
heard that before, um, and Ithink I'm, and I I mean it's got
(04:55):
to be dr wiles at the firstbaptist church, arlington.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
He's made comments about that, about the amen, amen
.
If you see, amen, amen, or ifyou start a sentence, if you
like, if we're reading our nivversion, or whatever and it
starts very truly.
He said you can, you can justput amen, amen into it, because
(05:20):
he's saying I this isn't just mesaying this, this is something
that you really need to listento.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Like this is something that's very, very
important.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Yeah, Well, and what's interesting too is like
when you end a prayer with amen,right, and so it's like he is
saying, like when he starts asentence with amen, it's this
hyper-importance, right, Becauseit's the thing that you say at
the end.
So he's starting it with it,but then he's doubling down on
(05:52):
it kind of thing.
Yeah, and so that's really,really interesting because in
one of my favorite verses orparts of Scripture is in John 6,
when he's talking about I amthe bread of life.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
So many times he's like amen, amen.
I say to you, if you do not eatthe flesh of the Son of man,
you have no life within you.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Right, so he's like starting with it.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Amen, amen.
Like you need to listen to this.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Yeah, not only do you need to listen to this, but you
can't not hear this kind ofthing.
This, yeah, not only do youneed to listen to this, but you
can't not hear this kind ofthing.
This is big.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
This is literally life and death right here.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
You know, like amen, amen, you might want to perk
your ears up.
I've said a lot of things, butyou might want to listen to this
one.
You might want to hear this.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
So this is going to be funbecause I just want to pick your
brain.
I want to hear what yourthoughts are.
I've been reading I told youabout this the other day I don't
think I said it on the podcast,but I found I stumbled across
this Saint Vincent so his namein Latin is like Vincentius or
something like that and Istumbled across it and I don't
(06:58):
know how I found it.
Of course, I was watching somevideo and some guy mentioned him
, so I looked it up and I findsome like PDF of the Latin only,
and I was like Googletranslating, trying to like
figure out what it said.
And then I realized I'm surethat somebody's already
translated this to English.
I just go look it up.
So I bought the book and so StVincent of Lorenz and Father
(07:34):
Stephen, whenever he listens tothis, is probably going to be
rolling his eyes because he'sprobably said something about
him like 17 times and I neverheard it or it's just like right
over my head or in one ear, outthe other.
Him, it was a.
He converted to the CatholicChurch and from I don't know
what Protestant denomination,but he, so he converted, and
this was one of the things andthe way he said it was in the
(07:58):
Matrix.
We love our movie referencesaround here, but I always mess
this one up which it's the bluepill or the red pill?
Which pill wakes you up?
I don't remember, dang I, whichit's the blue pill or the red
pill?
Which pill wakes you up?
I don't remember, dang.
I think it's the red pill.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
That's why I want to remember or I could be, I don't
remember, but the whole thingspoiler alert for anyone who's
never seen it somehow.
Um, if in in the movie, right,everyone's there plugged and
everyone's they're plugged intolike they're a human battery,
asleep being fed this computerdream, right, and everything you
(08:29):
experience is a program.
But if you, this guy's offeringMorpheus is offering Neo.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yeah, neo.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, these pills.
He's like two pills, red orblue.
Right, you take one.
You're going to go back tosleep.
You'll wake up.
This will all be a dream.
You'll never.
You're going to go back tosleep.
You'll wake up.
This will all be a dream You'llnever know yeah, and you'll
just move on with your life andeverything will be the way.
It is the red pill, I think.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
The other one.
If you take it, you're going toknow the truth and you're not
going to like it.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah, but you'll know the truth.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
But you'll know it and all this is going to go away
, and so he takes that when hewakes up, yeah, and then you got
two more movies, right?
So anyway, he said this guy washis red pill and he's like, oh
no, so anyway.
So this dude was um, he wrotethis in 434 and it's called the
common, the com comitorycomonitory, like common ittery
(09:32):
whatever, however you say thatword.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Yeah, however you say that.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
But as he writes it he's like this is to help me
remember the things that I'velearned and how to respond in
different situations.
So this is like he's writing itfor himself.
So he knows how to engage withpeople whenever something comes
up, right.
So this is like his note toself blah, blah, blah, right.
And so his big thing is, um,how to combat heresies and um,
(10:05):
in his mind and how to to staytrue to the faith, right.
So if somebody comes in withsomething like how do I know
that that's not true?
How do I stick to what's true?
How do I know that it's true?
Or the other thing is true,right.
And for him it seems like ifit's a novel idea, a new idea,
(10:31):
and it has no historical likekind of bearing in the faith,
he's like it's a heresy.
It could sound completely legit, but if nobody has ever
believed this before, then it'snot part of the faith.
Like someone's just makingstuff up.
So I've been dog-earing in here, um, just to kind of get your
(10:55):
feedback.
I don't know if I'll, if I'llread all of them to you, but
there's a lot of them, I can see.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah, and it's not a very big book.
Yeah, I was gonna say it'sreally really interesting.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Um, okay, so here we go, from chapter two.
It says but here someoneperhaps will ask since the canon
of Scripture is complete andsufficient of itself for
everything, and more thansufficient, what need is there
to join with it the authority ofthe Church's interpretation?
(11:28):
He goes for this reason because, owing to the depth of Holy
Scripture, all do not accept itin one and the same sense, but
one understands its words in oneway, another in another, so
that it seems to be capable ofas many interpretations as there
(11:50):
are interpreters.
And then he goes and he startslisting some heretics.
So he goes, novatian expoundsit one way.
Now, this is in 434, so listento how many novel ideas,
heretics that the church hadstood against to try to maintain
the faith right, novatianexpounds it one way.
(12:12):
Sibelius, another I'm going tobutcher some of these names
Donatus, another.
Arius, eunomius, macedonius,another Macedonius, another.
Fontius, apollinarius,priscillian, another.
Iovinian.
Pelagius, celestis, another.
Lastly, nestorius, another.
So that's like 13 guys.
Okay, therefore, it is verynecessary, on account of so
(12:44):
great intricacies, of suchvarious error, that the rule for
the right understanding of theprophets and the apostles should
be 434.
Yeah, what are your thoughts?
Because, you're one of the bigthings.
This is why I dog-eared thatone before you share your
thoughts.
This is why I dogged that onebefore you share your thoughts
(13:05):
is you've been wondering well,how do I know how someone is
teaching or how they interpretthe?
Bible if that's the right way,or not?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Mm-hmm, just my spitfire answer to that is Jesus
will tell you if it's right orwrong, if you have a strong
enough relationship with him andif you study enough.
Um, that's just kind of thespitfire, because in there, in
(13:34):
all those big words and allthose big names and stuff like
that, what, what I?
What I was thinking the wholetime, you were saying that is it
doesn't need defending, itdoesn't need our defense in
saying that this is right orwrong or anything like that.
It can withstand itself, it cansustain itself.
(13:56):
Jesus doesn't need us to defendhim.
Jesus can sustain himself andJesus is going to continue to
sustain himself Because it saysin there whether you get it this
way or whether you get it thatway or whether you don't get it
at all, scripture, scripture andit's going to be right.
No matter who tries to dictateor translate it, it's going to
be right.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
But how do you know if it's translated right?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah, you have to have a good relationship with
Jesus.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
So you think so, with all these people who are
getting it wrong, you don'tthink they had a good
relationship with Jesus.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
They may have.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
You know, these guys were all bishops and priests.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah, but they could get it wrong, right.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
So then, how do you know if you're not getting it
wrong?
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Man, that's a good question.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
So that's what this whole little book is about.
That's why it's like what's theneed If it's more than
sufficient, what's the need?
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Yeah, Because that's a great point.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
That's why he goes to church.
Yeah, the church is the onlything.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
The church is the only thing, and that's the
concept of going to somebodyelse to figure out if it's right
or wrong.
I'm not saying that's wrongright Because we go to people
who are smarter than us.
If I want to learn math, I goto somebody that's smart in math
(15:24):
.
If I want to go to to, but mathis is history.
I go to somebody that's smarterthan history me, but math is is
way easier to determine if it'sright or wrong, because numbers
are numbers and they eitherequal or they don't yeah right.
Um, scripture's not that easyright, but it can be.
(15:45):
You know, like I don't know howto get it to be easy, I just
man, that's a.
That's a good question because,you know, I genuinely like to
think that I have a lot of, youknow, great ideas and flashy
ways of answering things youknow, yeah.
(16:05):
But I mean, yeah, I'm surethose guys had great
relationships with Jesus andtheir bishops.
I don't know, man, you tell me,what about this one?
Speaker 1 (16:22):
So he says so, he says so he.
This is like a littlecommentary on St Paul's letter
to the Galatians.
He says I should haveunderlined instead of just
dogging the things.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Yeah, there's a lot on those pages, huh.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
I know man.
Um, okay, let me do this one.
So it says which being the case.
(17:05):
There's a lot on those pages.
Huh, I know man.
Okay, let me do this one.
So it says receive any otherdoctrine than that which he has
received from the church, thatelect vessel, that teacher of
the Gentiles, that trumpet ofthe apostles, that preacher
whose commission was to thewhole earth, that man who was
caught up to heaven cries andcries again in his epistles to
all, always, in all places.
If any man preaches a newdoctrine.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Let him be accursed.
So the answers in the church,uh, I mean, that's what he's
saying.
If you want to know if it'strue or not, what does the
church say about it?
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yeah and so yeah, like this chapter is like why
eminent men are permitted by Godto become authors of novelties
in the church, yeah, yeah.
But some will ask how is itthen that certain excellent
persons and of position in thechurch are often permitted by
(18:04):
god to preach novel doctrines,like it's just, it's funny,
right.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
like he's just keeps chewing on it, but it blows my
mind that this was written in434, like it's the same things
going on now yeah.
It's the same exact things thatare happening now.
A priest now can ask the samequestions that he asked in 434.
So in 434, there's people thatare like I know better than the
(18:30):
scripture, I know better thanwhat Jesus is saying and what
God is saying.
I know better in 434.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Yeah, one of the, so one of the big heresies that he
talks about.
Okay, so heresy he defines as ateaching that is not consistent
with the rest of the church.
Okay, so the first time theword Catholic is used.
Ignatius of Antioch.
(19:01):
He was one of the disciples ofPeter, who was the Bishop of
Antioch.
He was executed by the Romansin like 107 or something like
that.
And so he writes letters, and inhis letters he says he calls
the church Catholic and in hisletters he says he calls the
church Catholic and what theword Catholic means is basically
(19:22):
universal or of the whole.
So in this, so when, so thateven applies right now.
So the Catholic church issimply the word.
Who believe the totality of thefaith and we believe it
everywhere, all at the same time.
So there's not like a SouthernCatholic or something like that,
(19:51):
it's just Catholic right iswhat it's supposed to be.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
So, but there are different Catholics because
there's Orthodox and then,because I know we have talked
about this before.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
So how does?
That play into that.
So Orthodox, okay, so the wordsstart to have certain meanings.
So that's a good question,because it kind of plays into
this.
So the Christians who hadheresies or who taught heresies
and one of the ones he talksabout a lot in this is whether
(20:31):
God or sorry, whether Jesus wasfully God or yeah, fully God or
fully man or only one, orwhatever, or it was like fully
man with God's soul, or fully.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
God with man's soul, something like that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
So everyone who taught one of these heresies,
instead of being called Catholic, they were called by their
heretical teaching.
So instead of them adhering tothe teaching, that is the whole
faith, it's a very specificfaith.
(21:09):
So they would be like one ofthose guys' name was, I think,
donation or something like that.
So they're the Donatans, right.
So instead of Catholics,they're Donatans.
So then that makes sense nowbecause of, or the Aryans, right
, Because there was an Aryanheresy kind of thing.
(21:30):
So anyway, so they were knownby the teaching that they
believed, and that makes sensekind of now, because, well, to a
certain degree, because thenyou have Catholics and then you
have Protestants and theirheresy is to stand apart from
the church, and so then youstart.
I guess the names can maybe geta little funny after that, but
(21:53):
they all basically are.
The name is trying to describesomething about that.
Basically, the name is tryingto describe something about that
community of faith.
So, like Baptist, baptism is abig thing.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Methodists.
I guess the methodology is abig thing or something like that
, right?
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Presbyterian like yeah, and so Orthodox means the
how do I say this in light, theway I understand it is like
really old, like the originalkind of thing.
Okay.
So in this, a lot of times hesays, like how do you know your
(22:30):
faith, that you're following theright faith?
It has to be Orthodox, okay.
So well then, what does theOrthodox Church mean now?
Well, now it kind of stands inopposition of the Catholic
Church or not opposition, likewe're against each other so much
as we're not together.
Right, it's a way to define agroup kind of thing.
(22:54):
But still it means that theyfollow the oldest form of the
faith, right.
And so in the Orthodox churchesyou do have this kind of weird
thing that happens.
So you have like the GreekOrthodox Church and the Russian
Orthodox Church, and so itbecomes very like culturally
(23:18):
relevant, like where you areLike there's not a United States
Orthodox Church.
If there's an Orthodox Churchhere, it's going to be like a
Russian Orthodox Church.
So there's like a cultural linkright, so it's kind of weird,
but you do have some Orthodoxchurches who are still in
communion with the CatholicChurch and so they would be like
(23:39):
Orthodox Catholic churches, soit's kind of a weird kind of way
.
So in the Catholic Church too,you have what are called rites,
and the rite is kind of defininghow the liturgy is performed,
and so when somebody says RomanCatholic, it means it's the
(24:01):
Latin right church, and so youcan have, like, if there's some
kind of Eastern Catholic church,they probably have a different
right, which is something that'svery traditional to that area
and their culture, but it'sstill.
(24:23):
It's all of the teachings,though.
All of the faith is all stillthe same faith, it's just the
method that they have.
The church service is different, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
So it's just trying to understand it.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
The teachings are exactly the same in the Orthodox
or Roman Orthodox as it is inthe Western Orthodox.
Is it a Western Orthodox or?
Speaker 1 (24:56):
No, I guess the farthest Western Orthodox would
be just the Latin Rite Church,which is Roman Catholic.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
So what is the Catholic Church in the United
States?
The Latin Rite so it's theoriginal teachings.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yes, yeah, yeah.
So when the.
So what's kind of interestingis when the, the father steven
and I just did some.
Really he's a big history nutso like he likes teaching about
this stuff, and so we just did acouple episodes on this and I
thought it was reallyfascinating how the whole schism
between the east and the westright, um, a lot of this stuff
(25:37):
happened because of politicalreasons had nothing to do with
the church, because there was noseparation from church and
state.
Back then, the king or emperorof a place was supposed to be
Christian, and so he wassupposed to be approaching his
or engaging his relationshipsaround the world like God first
through him, instead of all youguys to God.
(25:58):
Right, god was supposed to becoloring his ink, so to speak,
and so everything was all justtogether.
And so then there, of course,there's all these political
things that go on Noteverybody's a good person, kind
of thing and then whenConstantinople gets sacked by, I
guess, the Muslims or somethinglike that, the bishops from
(26:20):
over there, they like flee andthey flee to Rome and they were
like they were about to likekind of fix all their problems
and like the emperor over therewas like any of y'all who don't
come back and join my side.
(26:41):
Any of y'all who, um don't comeback and and join my side, I'll
kill you so you can stay, or youcan come back and do it my way,
yeah, and so they stayed and solike.
So then he's like, okay, I'mgonna appoint my own bishops.
And so then, because he's incharge over there, and so like
everything just kind ofcontinued to separate.
But there's like all thispolitical like intrigue in the
background stuff going on andthen those kinds of but.
But all of those Greek thinkersthat came over like triggered
(27:04):
the Renaissance period and howthey thought about stuff, and
then that trickled forward, youknow, for the next few hundred
years until Martin Luther, andit was really interesting to see
how it all like kind of linkedtogether, yeah, but anyway.
So for them the big divide waswho's in charge, right, and so
for.
(27:26):
And a lot of Orthodox peoplelike to argue that the Pope is
not in charge, kind of thing.
But what's funny is if you goand you read the documents from
the councils where all thebishops get together for like
the first thousand years,there's many instances of them
citing the superiority of thePope and like we should listen
(27:47):
to him and here, here he did agood thing, kind of thing.
So it's kind of funny.
So they're just kind of backingout on this thing that they've
already been agreeing to.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
And that's even something like in here I have
one of these dog-eared.
It's kind of interesting, hesays, because he's talking about
the Pope right here.
He says when then all menprotested against the novelty
and they're talking about like aheresy that they're trying to
work out in the church right.
(28:17):
When, then, all men protestedagainst the novelty and the
priesthood everywhere, each inhis zeal prompted him, opposed
it.
Pope Stephen of blessed memory,prelate of the apostolic see.
See is a funny word, for likechair I don't know why it's like
.
This is my throne For anyway,prelate of the apostolic see, in
conjunction, indeed, with hiscolleagues, but yet himself, the
(28:42):
foremost, withstood it.
Thinking it right, I doubt notthat, as he exceeded all others
in the authority of his place,so that he should also in the
devotion of his faith, so likeeven in 434, he's saying like
the Pope like yeah he's equal,but he's like the first of
(29:04):
equals, right?
So, anyway, so that's the kindof big divide.
Is the Latin Rite, the CatholicChurch.
We understand that there's atiebreaker and it's the Pope,
right, he's the guy like Peter,is just an apostle like the rest
of them, but he's a little bitspecial.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yeah, he's like listen to him.
All the other ones listen tohim.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah, and so that's the Pope.
But the Orthodox churchesbecause the ones that went back
and they started appointingtheir own bishops and stuff
they're like no, we're in chargeof ourselves.
And so there has been a lotmore development of theology
since that schism in 1100 on theLatin side and not a whole lot
of development of theology onthe Orthodox side because, they
(29:51):
can't get together and sortthings out.
They just argue or theyexcommunicate each other.
So it's like I can.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
They don't have a referee.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Basically.
So if I was Greek Catholic orsorry Greek Orthodox, I could go
to a Ukrainian Orthodox churchfor Mass, or I can go to a
Russian one for Mass, but it'sbecause neither one of them have
excommunicated the Greek church.
But if I was Ukrainian Orthodox, I can't go to the Russian
Orthodox church because they'veexcommunicated usreek church.
But if I was ukrainian orthodox, I can't go to the russian
orthodox church because they'veexcommunicated us.
(30:20):
And if I was russian orthodox,I can't go there, but we can
both go to the greek one, and soit's like that.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Yeah, like you said, there's no referee, there's
nobody to like hey y'all settledown, let's work it out yeah,
there's no interference.
Yeah, that's interesting yeah Ichuckle because this is in 434
yeah he wrote this in 434 andit's like so prevalent today.
(30:45):
What he's talking about is soprevalent today.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yeah, it's crazy man yeah, and, and this guy, like
truth be told, I think this guythe the area he was in Lorenz,
there was a way of thinking andI forget what it was because I
haven't finished the whole book,but there's a way of thinking
that is, I think it ended upbeing classified heretical, and
(31:11):
so it's kind of funny because,like, apparently, when you read
people who like really study him, they're like was he a heretic
too, Was he writing all thesewonderful things?
Speaker 2 (31:21):
but he was a heretic too.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
But that's kind of his whole thing is the only way
you know is because the Churchpersists and the things that are
true are always gonna be therein one way shape or form.
And can our theology grow?
Can it adapt over timeAbsolutely, but only if it is
holding true to the originaltheology.
You can't just make upsomething new and say this is
(31:46):
the way it is.
And that thing always struck melike with Martin Luther, where
he's like wait a minute, no, no,no, no, you don't need the
church.
Well, this guy like what?
Almost no.
1,100 years before MartinLuther was like yeah, if you
don't have the church, you don'thave anything.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
That's, I mean, what I'm getting out of.
That is like to find the answer.
You go to the church.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
And the church is everything Like it's everything
is through the church.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Yeah, so listen to this one.
The title of this chapter isHeretics Appeal to Scripture
that they May More EasilySucceed in Deceiving, he says
here.
Possibly someone may ask doheretics also appeal to
scripture?
They do indeed, and with avengeance, for you may see them
scamper through every singlebook of Holy Scripture, through
(32:40):
the books of Moses, the books ofKings, the Psalms, the Epistles
, the Gospels, the Prophets,whether among their own people
or among strangers, in privateor in public, in speaking or in
writing, at convivial meetings,whatever that is, or in the
(33:11):
streets.
Hardly ever do they bringforward, and he says and the
rest of those pests, and youwill see an infinite heap of
instances.
Hardly a single page which doesnot bristle with plausible
quotations from the NewTestament or the Old.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
That's I mean.
Was not Jesus tempted by thedevil?
Speaker 1 (33:36):
with the devil quoted .
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Yeah, scripture adam that's when you were reading
that, I was like that's exactlywhat the devil did yeah he took
scripture and to go back to whatwe were talking about in the in
the podcast, try to use his ownink.
And jesus was like no, that'snot god's ink that's your ink.
(33:59):
And that's not right.
So, yeah, that's exactly what.
And again, it happens every daynow because and a lot of this
you know, when you're thinkingabout this, I'm thinking about
the Joel Osteen's of the worldand oh man, the guy, that man,
he's a big one.
There's several big ones, and Ican't remember all their names
(34:20):
right now, but those BennyHinn's, another one.
All those guys are takingScripture and these people that
come to their church and filltheir stands and fill their
pockets with money.
They're hearing Scripture.
Yeah, but it's just you know,Joel Osteen won't talk about
anything bad.
Joel olstein won't talk aboutanything bad like he don't talk
(34:41):
about anything bad.
You can't have the bible inscripture without having bad bad
comes with it, and that's whatthis, this, this guy's saying,
this vicente guy, or however yousay his name vincent, yeah I'm
looking across and I forgot myglasses.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
But Vincent, he's got a glorious beard, by the way,
it is.
It's pretty nice, it's envious.
But that's what he's saying islike these guys are coming up
here and they're spitting allthis stuff out here and people
are following them.
You know the Aryans, or not theAryans?
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Those guys in the Donovans or whatever.
They're all listening to whatthese guys are speaking and
they're like oh, I like that,I'm going to go with that guy.
Oh, I like that guy, I'm goingto go with that guy.
Well, it's the same with thenominations.
Now you know you've got Baptist, but you also have Southern and
you have Northern.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Baptist.
Is it Northern or is it justnon-Southern?
I think it's just Baptist, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Baptist, because I was like I've never heard
Northern Baptist, but I thinkit's Baptist and then Southern
Baptist.
I think there's ReformedBaptist.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
There's Reformed Baptist, and then you have
Assembly of God and Pentecostal,which are kind of similar but
they're different.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
And you have Presbyterian and Methodist and
Mormon and I mean you just have,you know, lutheran.
You go on and on and on becauseit's like oh, I like that part.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Yeah, I heard somebody saying it was like he
grew up thinking that.
He grew up thinking that it mayhave been the guy who was
talking about this guy too, andthat video I was watching about
this guy too.
In that video I was watching,but he felt like no, no, no, it
was somebody else.
I just remember who it was.
I don't remember the guy's name, but I do remember someone else
.
He was saying he always thoughtthat Christianity was supposed
to be like safety glass thatjust got hit real hard with a
(36:28):
hammer and it just like spiderweb shatters out, but it doesn't
break.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
And it's just supposed to be all these
different things because, nobodycan agree on anything.
Everybody has their owninterpretation, and this is just
the way it's supposed to beyeah and this is how we all get
to heaven together that's wildto think like that, you know,
yeah and and he, he again, heultimately converted but,
because he was like it never satright with me that nobody
(36:55):
seemed to agree on anything.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Yeah like it's.
It's again.
Where's the referee?
You?
Know like you could just go anddo whatever you want and and
preach whatever you want,however, you feel this is what I
think this says.
So I'm just gonna go start achurch that says this is what I
think it says.
Yep, that's, that's not right.
Yeah, and I don't think any.
I well, I think there are a lotof very good intentioned people
out there, of course.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
I talk about it all and I don't think any—well, I
think there are a lot of verygood-intentioned people out
there.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Of course I talk about it all the time.
I don't think there's anybodyin First Baptist Church
Arlington that ever taught meanything, at least the leaders
in the church.
I know there were some churchmembers that we didn't always
get along with, but the leadersin the church, they never had
any ill will towards me or theywere trying to lead me in any
way that they didn't believe wasthe truth.
(37:43):
Yeah, and again, I wouldn't bewhere I am right now without
First Baptist Church Arlington.
But I just know that there'ssomething more than that and
it's because if thatdenomination says this and this
denomination says this and that,well, who's right?
(38:03):
Yeah, that's that shattered,safety glass.
Right, yeah, that safety glassthat shattered.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
Yeah, and his little icon.
He's holding a scroll and itsays Let ye, yet ye, hold fast
to that which has been believedeverywhere, always and by all
right, like that's his, thatantiquity of this fit of.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
The belief has to be the root of anything yeah right
um I think about whenever thatyou, you talk about that, that,
that spider web, you know thatsafety glass, that's it's a good
image.
It is.
It's.
It's a very good image becausewhen you look at it, all you see
is chaos.
You know, because if you thinkof a safety glass being
(38:46):
shattered, when you look at it,you're like man, something bad
happened.
But when you, when you'resupposed to look at christianity
, you're not supposed to look at, something bad happen.
Don't get me wrong.
Something bad happened becausejesus but you know what I mean
you're not supposed to be like,oh, that's bad yeah that's chaos
you don't look at, but that'show it is.
Yeah, if you're, if you're anoutsider and you come over here
(39:08):
and see all the craziness ofwhat america has and this is no
dog on america, because that'swhat makes america great is you
can believe whatever you want tobelieve.
That's what god says too.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
You can believe whatever you want to believe,
but it's like man what in theworld are y'all doing over here
yeah, um that one of the thingsthat he and this is what I think
happens a lot of times is he'stalking about these different um
heresies is you have right?
Because he's talking about howto, why do?
Why are imminent men permitted?
Speaker 2 (39:39):
by God to do this stuff Permitted, you know.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
And he's saying so.
I think what happens issomebody is just wrestling with
something, kind of the wayyou're saying.
It's hard for me to comprehendthat like the divine part of
Jesus.
I can get the human part.
Well, some of these arespecifically about those kinds
of heresies.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Like, well, God would , or Jesus was just a man, right
, or the Holy Spirit moved intohim at a certain point in time
and that's when he started doingholy stuff.
I don't know like whateverright, All these different
thoughts and probably whathappened is this guy, who loves
God, can't figure it out.
He can't exist in that tensionbetween the two points that he
(40:21):
can't comprehend.
Yeah, and so in his mind he goesI have to make this make sense.
And he shifts one way and he'slike all right, my brain can
accept that, I'm gonna run withit.
And there's thousands of peoplein the world who go oh my
goodness, that makes sense nowtoo, thank you.
(40:42):
And then they follow right.
But this guy of St Vincent'sgoing like nay, nay, that's not
what you're supposed to do andit's not to say that right,
because we've talked about, wehave an intellect we're supposed
to be able to figure out.
God wouldn't be there and belike just accept it.
Right, he wants you to try tounderstand.
Him and it should make sense asmuch as possible to you, right?
(41:06):
So I think that when thisMartin Luther right, he's like I
can't ever merit, I can't earnmy way to heaven, I can't any of
this stuff.
Like the church is telling methat like I have to keep working
on myself my whole life, Ican't like I'll never get there.
(41:27):
And then all of a sudden hegoes.
But wait, I don't have to, Ijust have to have faith alone.
That's it.
Well, faith alone is never inthe Bible, except for in James
when he says works without faithis dead or something like that,
and so in his brain somethingclicked and it made sense to him
and he felt better about it.
(41:48):
And then, as he shared thatwith people, it made sense to
other people and they all wantto follow.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
But we can't.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
We got to be careful, I guess, is the trick.
Yeah, you have to be verycareful, you know, but we can't
we gotta be careful, I guess?
Speaker 2 (41:58):
is the trick?
Yeah, you, you have to be verycareful and play to win, not to
not lose.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Throwback.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Yeah, that's just what.
When you were talking aboutthat, that's what was in my mind
is like don't take the easy wayout and plan to not lose is the
easy way out.
You got to play to win so it'slike what is?
Speaker 1 (42:26):
how are you supposed to navigate that in in, because
we've talked about this beforetoo.
Like there are people who arelike uh, who are born into a
faith and that's just the onlything.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
that's Because that's all they know.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
Right, but what happens when you start like Neo
and the Matrix?
You?
Speaker 2 (42:44):
start realizing that there's something else there,
like what is it Like?
You start noticing thedifferences and the things that
don't sit right.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Yeah, like you start going, is that glass supposed to
be like that?
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Right.
You know what this isinteresting?
Because this is like we weretalking about reasoning the
other day.
How do we come to know stuff?
Because any kind of line oflogic that we follow can give us
the wrong answer.
The logic can be sound, but itcan give us the wrong answer.
Right, Like the whole.
A equals B.
If A equals B and B equals C,then A equals C.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Well, okay, B equals C, then A equals C.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Well, okay, yeah, but you can get there and still get
the wrong answer.
Oh yeah, right, so if Chris isa man and Chris is a man's name,
then all men's name is Chris orsomething like that, right.
Like you can get there andthat's maybe sorry philosophy
majors out there who are justgoing.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
No, you ruined it.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
But, yeah, you can get to the wrong answer with
good logic, kind of thing.
And so we often want and thisis maybe the fault or the danger
of the heresy, right is, wevery often want that one piece
of evidence that's going to tellus what's right, to tell us
(43:59):
what's right where.
Instead we should be picking upall the pieces of evidence
around us and trying tounderstand, you know, what is
what is most probably yeah, thetruth because, again, you can't.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
You can't live your life based on proof alone,
because you, you can't prove, Ican't prove that this building
is not going to crumble rightnow.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
I can't prove that, but I can take the evidence in
the fact that it's built sturdy,it's structurally sound and
it's going to hold us.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
That's proof, but's?
I mean, it's not, it's notproof.
Sorry, it's evidence, but it'snot proof yeah that it's gonna
be so when you say that, yeah,we have to take the evidence
around us to, because if you, Imean if you try to base and
there's a guy that I listened to, he's man, he's, he's so
awesome and I can never rememberhis name, but he says this a
(44:57):
lot, he goes to a lot I think Imight have mentioned him on the
last podcast or whatever, maybesometime before but he goes to
colleges, campuses, and all ofthem, all of them want proof,
proof, proof, proof, proof.
And he's so much all the timesays do you live your life based
on so proof?
And they're like, yeah, and hewas like you're lying because
you can't, because you go tosleep at night, you can't prove
(45:20):
that your dorm, your, yourroommate, is not going to stab
you in the back when you'reasleep.
Yep, but the evidence thaty'all have formed in the
relationship leads you tobelieve that your roommate is
not going to stab you in theback.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
Well, you relate that to the to and again again.
I think we talked about itbefore, maybe not on the podcast
, but I know you and I havetalked about it.
We'll believe so quickly thatNapoleon was.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
Oh yeah, that's right .
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Yeah, yeah Was real, him, and like Julius Caesar and
all these great historicalfigures, there's not a person on
the planet that was aneyewitness to whatever to them
being born or them being alive.
There's nobody on this planetthat lived during their time,
yeah, but we're so quick tobelieve that those guys were
real and were true, based oneyewitness testimony through
(46:09):
written uh documents and in inbooks throughout the years that
were like hundreds of years,hundreds of years but yet we're
so quick to say, well, goddidn't exist, but God is based
on eyewitness testimony.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
Jesus wasn't real yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
But there's eyewitnesses.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
Probably more eyewitnesses to Jesus than to
Napoleon, and Caesar and all ofthem.
So why?
Speaker 1 (46:38):
Yeah, it's so interesting.
And because, yeah, because youcannot live your life that way,
like it doesn't make any senseto live any part of your life
that way.
So, even like I heard some guytalking, somebody was asking him
like how do I know that Godexists right?
And he's like there's no singlepiece of evidence.
But a good metaphor for what hesaid would be if I asked you
(46:59):
how do you know your wife lovesyou?
Yeah, well, you can't say well,here's the one thing that I
know my wife loves me because ofthis.
No, it's all of the evidencetogether added up where you go.
Yeah, I know my wife loves me,yeah, right.
So you look around, yeah, Iknow God exists, yeah, right.
And then, yeah, not just thatthere's a deity, that there's
some kind of God out there,because you look at the evidence
(47:22):
, yeah, I believe that Jesus wasa real guy, that Jesus was.
Oh, father Stephen's calling me.
Sorry, I'll have to.
Oh, I actually wonder if I cananswer him.
Hold on a second.
Let's try this.
I'm going to put him on speakerNice Padre and put him on
speaker Nice Padre.
I'm recording a podcast episodewith Chris and now you're on it
(47:45):
.
Oh, okay, I better let you go.
Yeah, I'll call you when I'mdone.
Okay, all right, love you, loveyou, Bye.
His ears were burning, man.
His ears were burning.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
But it's.
It's the evidence that yourwife has provided you to believe
that she loves you.
Yeah, and it's evidence thatyou provide her that she
believes that you, that you loveher yeah but's.
There's no way to 100% provethat my wife loves me or that
(48:24):
she believes that I love her.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
And I it.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
I was watching again another reel and they were given
all these like astronomical,like it's.
It's like this hard for eightmiracles to even happen and it's
this hard, even harder, for 40miracles to even happen and even
harder than but it's beenscientifically proven that Jesus
performed over 300.
(48:51):
Yeah, it's been scientificallyproven.
Yeah, but people can't believethat Even though it's been
scientifically proven.
Yeah, people still don'tbelieve it.
Yep, yeah, it's so like it'swild man.
It's wild man.
But don't believe that napoleonwas napoleon and caesar was
(49:12):
caesar and george washington wasgeorge washington and abraham
lincoln was Abraham, you know,but it's solely based on
eyewitness testimony of thosepeople being alive that the
people today believe thosepeople were alive, on eyewitness
testimony.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
Yeah, and so so we're all, and so often we want that
red pill.
Speaker 2 (49:35):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
That's going to give us the truth, and that's it.
And then you know, everythingchanges.
But, I think the challenge forall of us right, and I did this
too, because I was raisedCatholic and then I completely
walked away from the church.
I walked away from God, Iclaimed to be atheist, and all
that kind of stuff right, but atsome point in time God, in his
(49:56):
mercy, slapped me in the back ofthe head and shook me real hard
and brought me back.
And then my question was thenwhat is the truth?
Because Jesus claims to be thetruth, but looking around at the
safety glass, it's a mess, andso I think that the challenge
(50:17):
for all of us is to is to how dowe find the evidence that gives
us what is most probably thetruth?
Yeah, you know and and then, um, are we doing the best we can
with that?
Yeah, what are we doing withthat evidence?
Yeah, you know, yeah, I thinkthere's, there's no other way to
look at it.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
There's no other way to.
Are we doing the best?
Speaker 1 (50:38):
we can with that?
Speaker 2 (50:39):
Yeah, what are we doing with that evidence?
Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, Ithink there's no other way to
look at it.
There's no other way to decidewhether we believe it or not.
What evidence is there and whatdo we do with that evidence?
Speaker 1 (50:51):
Yeah, and for me the thing that I did is I was
reading these old guys.
Yeah, Because I was like, well,I wonder what exists.
I'm like, oh, guys who actuallyknew the apostles wrote stuff
down.
I wonder what they wrote.
And that's pretty strongevidence to me.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
Eyewitness testimony yeah Right.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
Yeah, and it's like when was?
It's like your grandfather wasprobably born in the early 1900s
1908.
Speaker 2 (51:17):
No 1903.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
Okay, so that's your grandfather.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
That's my grandfather .
That's my dad's dad.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
Okay.
So not only do we have guys whoknew the apostles and wrote of
them, but then like, and youknow a lot about your dad's dad,
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
But then like, and you know alot about your dad's dad, mm-hmm
.
Okay, we have things written bythe disciples of the apostles.
(51:43):
Right, like Ignatius was adisciple of Peter, we have
things written by his disciples.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
So you think he probably knows Peter pretty well
, yeah, right.
And so, like a lot of times,people go oh, something was
written in the 300s or 400s.
Those guys were not that faraway.
Speaker 2 (52:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
Like they knew the guy that it's like their grand,
their great grandfather or theirgrandfather of the faith was
one of the apostles.
Speaker 2 (52:09):
A lot of times.
My great grandfather was bornin the 1800s.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
Did you ever meet him ?
Speaker 2 (52:15):
No.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:16):
Never met him but, I, know of him because my papa
told me about him.
Yeah, yeah yeah, and my dadtold me what he knows about him,
but I believe, based on theireyewitness testimony, that my,
my great-grandfather was alive.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
Yeah, you know and you know, it's what.
The last thing I think isreally kind of interesting about
this kind of stuff, because Ihear a lot of people like um, my
um, my father-in-law, I'd loveto have my father-in-law like on
this.
I don't think he'd, ever itwould.
Um, out of respect, I don'tthink he would but their church
of Christ.
So they're very Bible literaland um, they believe that the
(52:51):
church of Christ is the, the,it's the true church and it's
the true church.
Because if their littlecongregation doesn't work out
super paraphrasing, not tryingto be offensive but if it
doesn't work out, it's becausethey weren't being true to the
church.
If their church is true, thenit persists, kind of thing,
right.
So if you're trying to teachthings that are untrue, the
(53:13):
church doesn't last.
So again, super nutshell.
So again, super nutshell.
But I'm saying all that becausethis St Vincent's writing about
all these heresies in here andhe writes about the divinity of
(53:38):
Jesus, the Trinity, all of thesekinds of things like this,
right, and there's not once thathe writes about.
So it's very clear that ifsomebody had a novel idea, if
somebody had a new idea, ifsomebody tried to introduce
something new into Christianity,people were throwing a fit Like
they were not standing for it,right, and even if it was real,
(54:02):
real popular like some of theseguys, like the Arian heresy was
real popular and I think he saysthat there may have been a time
where most of the people of thechurch believed the heresy, but
when all the bishops gottogether and they argued it out,
the Holy Spirit won and itclarified the issue.
Right, so God is, or Jesus istruly God, fully man kind of
(54:25):
thing.
Okay, so not once.
Are they writing?
Is he writing about, if thereare, if it's appropriate that
there are priests, bishops and apope, and my father-in-law's
church like he'll all day longlike there are no priests in the
Bible, well, for the Christians, right, like never talks about
(54:47):
that there's a pope, never talksabout that there are priests
and that there's all thisEucharist and stuff like that
right.
Like all that stuff is made up,well, they would have been
writing and arguing about itreally early in the church,
because in this he says he talksabout the Pope, he talks about
your bishop, he talks about thepriests, right, and so that was
(55:08):
kind of evidence.
To me too, it's like, well,maybe somebody is people out
there believe stuff that they'veheard and they don't know the
historical nature of it, right,and that's kind of goes back to
believe what?
What does he say?
What's been believed everywhere, always and by all kind of
thing?
I don't know.
I just thought it was really,really interesting stuff, yeah
(55:31):
it is, man, it is.
Speaker 2 (55:33):
And again, like, where do I go to find what is
right?
Well, according to that guy,it's the church.
Speaker 1 (55:50):
Yeah.
You know, I'll have to let youborrow it when I'm done
bookmarking it up.
Speaker 2 (55:55):
Yeah, and it's Jesus.
You know, that's I meanobviously he's the answer, but
there's so many people out therethat have a different answer to
that question or like a notmaybe a different answer jesus
always answer but like adifferent version of what jesus
says yeah, so man, what did wesay we're going to talk about
(56:18):
next time?
Speaker 1 (56:18):
I don't remember.
Speaker 2 (56:18):
I don't either what did we say we're gonna talk
about next time?
I don't remember.
I don't either.
What did we say, give me asecond, I'll come to it.
And I don't remember I don'tremember either we got off on
this man and I forgot there yougo man well, we going to talk
(56:38):
about something.
Speaker 1 (56:39):
Yeah, I have a feeling you and I will pop into
the office at work and be like,hey, this thing that I saw, yeah
, and then we'll be like hold ontime out, let's just go talk
about it, all right, man,because that's usually how it
happens.
But there was something thatLike oh, that's good, that's
good, it'll come to us.
Yeah Well, thanks for hangingout with me.
Speaker 2 (56:58):
Yeah, I appreciate it .
This is always fun.
It's always a good time.
Speaker 1 (57:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (57:01):
That was cool that Father Stevens jumped in.
Speaker 1 (57:03):
Yeah, can't wait for him to hear it.
Speaker 2 (57:06):
Yeah, all right, cool man.
Well, see you, see you when Isee you.
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