Leaving MAGA Conversation with Gonzaga Law School--Part 1

Part I of a conversation with a Gonzaga Law School student about the appeal of MAGA as a community, restorative justice and the alt-right.

NOTE: Views expressed are not necessarily those of the university.

For more My Leaving MAGA Odyssey podcast episodes, visit here:

https://rss.com/podcasts/leavingmaga/

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
chord right now. So I'll start doing this thing. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And I really honestly, thank

(00:07):
you so much for your time. I have been like really interested in this, like the all right for a very
long time. So I guess, I mean, I read your book from the, from your website. And I, yeah. And I
learned about you from Philip DeFranco, which I believe he interviewed you. Yes, that was recently.

(00:29):
Yes. And I haven't watched her. So I actually have been interested in the, like, just a little bit
by myself. So like, you know, why I'm doing this. I've been interested in the alt right for
quite a long time. I think ever since like, you know, Trump started becoming big and popular in
the media. Like, as a member of like multiple marginalized communities, it was like, I started

(00:52):
tracking this movement because it's like, okay, I'm interested in knowing what is going on and like,
what the movement is about and like, why it is that this became a thing in the first place.
Full disclosure, I am a softy leftist liberal.
Have been. Well, thank you for saying that. Yeah. You know, and I appreciate you saying that because

(01:15):
it removes all of the biases that others may have in listening to this conversation. Oh, yeah.
So here in Florida, I'll mention since just real quickly that I am an NPA, which means no party
affiliation. You may have seen that I did serve as a co-chair here in Florida for Republicans for

(01:38):
Harris during the campaign, but I have not been a Republican since Trump's first term. And while I
reserve the right to change my mind on this, I am registered to vote, but I think being affiliated
with no party, it just at this moment in time brings a bit more credibility to leaving MAGA
and the organization. Oh yeah. And I can definitely see why, because you're like,

(02:00):
like straddling in the middle and like tell people that, you know, you're not like leaving MAGA for
the left. Exactly. There's no ideological purity test. We'll get into,
and remind me if I forget to bring this up, there is one non-negotiable mandate to leaving though,

(02:23):
that we'll get into as we talk a little bit about what I like to call my Odyssey.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. So yeah, that's why I started like, all right. And especially since
the recent election, the country has been a lot more polarized and unforgiving, I think. And I

(02:46):
definitely have like a lot of criticism on the left itself for being pretty
unwilling to forgive people and unwilling to accept people back. So that's why I wanted to write this,
like do my research on this paper is, or on the subject is like, there's not a lot of research
into the alt-right per se. And it'd be interesting to kind of see if there's a way we can try to

(03:12):
heal people basically. So yeah. Okay, so a couple questions. And I really, again, really appreciate
your time. So I wanted to focus on like two topics today. Number one is your journey into MAGA and
then leaving it. I did read your book and like watched a couple of interviews. I just have a few

(03:34):
more follow-up questions that are a little bit more specific. And then second is going to be your
work specifically. So just before joining MAGA, like in the movement, did you have any friends
who were part of like a diverse community? So like LGBT, people of color, you know, anyone that would

(03:56):
identify with the political left? I would say not very diverse, but as someone who was political,
I was around people of differing beliefs. No one, I was really around,
after graduating college was, that was in the year 2000. And a lot of my political sensibilities

(04:21):
were developed in college. And I spent the next 15 years developing a very cemented belief that
the two parties were the same, that they were two sides of the same coin, that they represented
just a really small sliver of the wealthy and the affluent and the powerful in the US.

(04:45):
And I appreciate you saying that because as it pertains to my eventual support for Trump and for
MAGA as a movement in a community, which we'll talk a lot about community today, I think that
that disenchantment with our two party system is a relatively anodyne non-controversial position.

(05:10):
And I do think that a lot of people who originally supported Trump
did recognize his outsider status. Now I realize some may say, well, Rich, he ran as a Republican.
That's true. You have to run as one of the two major, on one of the two major parties in order
to get elected. But he came from a world that was not of politics and not of the government,

(05:34):
not of military. So in that definition, which I think is a fair definition, he was truly an
outsider. And while I was not enamored with his campaign initially, I was curious about it pretty
early on because he was, yes, there were reprehensible statements made, but I just

(05:55):
chose to ignore those even though I knew that they were indefensible because I was focused on
when he would talk about issues. And there were, it seems so long ago, because in political dog years,
nearly a decade ago, it seems like a century, but there were actually issues that were broached.
And subjects that came up about economic anxiety sounds familiar, right? Just like we're talking

(06:17):
about them now because they'll always exist. Jobs going overseas, communities that were once
vibrant and thriving being hollowed out. So I found myself more and more nodding in concurrence.
And in my political, really what I would consider my political education between 2000 and 2015 when

(06:39):
Trump ran, I voted third party a lot, but I was around people who would consider themselves
left leaning. I was around people who considered themselves right leaning. I remember one peer I
went to college with, his parents had humongous picture of Reagan in their home. And it's funny

(07:00):
that we're talking about it this way because I don't think I've brought that point up in the past,
but now I'm thinking about this and I had a pretty, I would say a relatively diverse, not people who
were, let's say activists for particular causes, whether it was LBGT plus, Q rights or marriage
equality, but the ones I was around, I always considered them to be pretty politically reasonable.

(07:25):
Now I was political but ignorant. So of course I thought that I was reasonable and I thought that
I was, of course I'm unbiased, I'm very independent, but I did find that over time
I believe that the Democratic party and Hillary had they won in 2016 that they would have captured

(07:48):
and seized permanent political power. And I say this looking back on it to acknowledge how wrong
I was. And I also say this because I think it's very important and it is Vicki part of the leaving
MAGA story we'll get to. I take responsibility for allowing myself to be influenced into thinking

(08:14):
something so traumatic as a victory of Hillary and the Democrats is going to mean that I am an
irrelevant citizen in my own country. That's what I thought. And if we go back even before Trump ran,
if we recall the election was going to be Hillary versus Jeb Bush and even apolitical friends of

(08:38):
mine. And when I say apolitical, they don't talk about politics a singular second during the day,
ever. Even those individuals said to me, Rich, I thought that we declared our independence from a
monarchy. Now we're going to have political dynasties, another Bush or another Clinton.

(08:59):
These were politically indifferent people, Vicki, saying that. So imagine I, the anti-two party guy,
right? What I'm thinking, I'm thinking, okay, well, I guess I'm just going to vote third party.
And then here came Trump. Basically saying, you know what, the two parties have failed you. They
don't recognize you. They don't see you. They don't hear you. And I'm thinking, hmm, I agree

(09:20):
with that. I think that's true. It wasn't, oh, I supported him when he came down the escalator.
I just want to tell you, most people who say that, not really true. Okay. It's not really true.
Outside of his family, people, it's cool to say it now, right? But it's really not that true.
He started growing after, because he, it sounds like he really spoke to

(09:43):
like dissatisfaction that a lot of Americans have with local system.
Yes. And I think that part of what got tapped into is that we as a people are a rebellious people.
Mm-hmm. It is, it is just instilled in us because our country was founded in revolution.

(10:03):
We, we preserve the union with a civil war and revolution between two factions. And
when a candidate comes in as a change candidate, which is what former president Obama did,
and which is what president elect Trump did, I don't think it's coincidental that one followed

(10:25):
the other. I know for many who are very, very anti-Trump and very anti-MAGA, and I understand
those feelings, but there's this sentiment of, I don't understand how we went from Obama to Trump.
And I say, well, it's actually a little more logical than one might think because
most Americans are not ideologically driven. There is no actual ideology in MAGA. Whatever

(10:47):
beverage you're drinking there has more ideology in it than does MAGA, because most Americans,
including MAGA, are not driven by policy. Mm-hmm. And it's not what people generally base their
votes on. So when people see someone coming in as that disruptor, that's really why I gravitated
to the Trump campaign, because I saw him as someone willing and able to obliterate the

(11:10):
established political order. And I also concluded, hey, he doesn't need this job. So thus he must,
he must want it for the right reasons to make, to make the country a better place.
Yeah. And I say none of this, Vicki, I say none of this as a self-defense for my past actions
and rhetoric, but I want to emphasize this for those listening that there were some understandable

(11:35):
valid reasons, even with some of the abhorrent statements made about minorities and about women
and Muslims, there were some valid reasons that did recognize a lot of concerns that everyday
Americans have. Oh, yeah. And I can definitely, like a lot of what you're saying about how Trump
appealed to Americans who are disenfranchised or disillusioned by the two-party system,

(12:00):
I think it's definitely a similar feeling that a lot of people on the left felt about Bernie
Sanders, for example. Bernie Sanders would often speak to how both parties are not for the people,
therefore they're rich donors and for preserving the class system that we have. And his statements

(12:22):
appeal to a lot of like, I remember at the time I was, I was too young to vote in 2016, but it
appealed to a lot of like Gen Z and millennials and like the pop, like the populism kind of message
because he was talking about criticizing the current establishment. So it sounds like Trump
is like a direct reflection of that, that he spoke to something a lot of people were

(12:47):
like disillusioned by. And I think it's a perfectly like, I understand like having that feeling,
being disillusioned and finding someone who sounds like a disruptor and being like, you know what,
the current system sucks, I'm going to go with them. Like makes sense. Definitely.
Well, and it's not also, it's also not coincidental Vicki, that there were Bernie voters who supported

(13:12):
Trump out of protest. Because again, we're back, what are we back to again, rebelliousness.
Yep.
Right. There was, there was a, there was a remonstrance amongst some Bernie voters who,
who felt that the Democratic party wanted Hillary no matter what. And I do push back a little bit
on the primaries were rigged. No, I think that certainly the party helped Hillary more, but that

(13:38):
isn't really, I don't see that as rigged. Bernie was out competing for votes the same way. Now,
one point on Bernie Sanders, I will say just because he's come up a lot recently,
is that whatever one's views of his positions, he's been very consistent throughout his entire
career. And what he managed to actually do very well in 16 was even though he'd been in

(14:00):
elected office for many, many years, Bernie Sanders was and is a disruptive figure.
Yeah.
And I think that there's a lot of looking the other way right now amongst the Democratic party
with what Bernie's saying, because I think deep down the party knows that a lot of what he's
saying is accurate. And not just in a post-mortem context, electorally, but his broad points about

(14:24):
who are the people the party's really paying attention to. And, you know, and having served
on Kamala's campaign, it's no consolation, but I'm so proud of the work we did. I know we didn't get
the outcome we wanted, but I promise all of those listening who supported the Harris-Waltz ticket,
to use a sports analogy, which is appropriate for a conversation with a Gonzaga student, we

(14:47):
left it all on the court. There was nothing left. We gave everything and then some. And I'm sorry,
we didn't, I'm sorry we didn't get the outcome we wanted, but I feel people should know that,
that despite the compressed time period we had to work, we put in probably two years of work in

(15:08):
six or so, in the, in the whatever it was, four or so months. Yeah. And she, since she had replaced
President Biden. Yeah. I remember when the announcement first came, it was definitely,
like, I was like, I felt hope, I guess is the best way to put it. And it is disappointing that we

(15:28):
didn't, the outcome was turned out the way it was. So. Well, I want to just say for the record,
and this is not a criticism of Vice President Harris. So I just want to be clear on that.
No one should construe it as any kind of censure of she or her campaign. I probably am still in
the minority of people in the country who believes that President Biden would have won this election.

(15:53):
And a lot of the people I heard who said publicly, 100% Joe's going to lose. A lot of those
individuals thought that Kamala would win. Yeah. Well. So with all due respect to some of those
very smart people, and they are smart and very good at what they do. Well, I'm not saying this

(16:16):
to try to validate my opinion. Of course, I can't say for sure that Joe would have won,
but I actually do believe that when we look at the margins, as they turned out, I think Joe would
have had enough support to have won at the margins. Yeah. That's what I do believe. I do think that
actually. And, but we'll never know. Yeah. And, you know, we, I've talked about this a lot,

(16:38):
and, you know, we, I've told some, I see online liberals and Democrats and progressives talking
about something's funny, something's fishy. And I say to them, stop, please cease and desist because
the election was fair and it was honest and it wasn't rigged. I know it's, I understand our

(17:01):
deep, deep disappointment, but don't play that game. Because if we play that game, we're playing
again, to use a sports analogy on the other team's court. Yep. That this is how information
spreads. Yeah. That's exactly right. And, and, you know, and I'm glad you mentioned that point at
the outset about Democrats and liberals, because I'm not trying to equate blamefulness, but

(17:26):
the left is, is not wholly blameless either. Yeah. And so much of, and so much of the
polarization and these issues we're talking about. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. I, that those are good
points and I agree with a lot of what you say. So yeah. Okay. So, sorry, circling back to prior

(17:52):
question I was at, I was wondering about earlier was, so would you say that your, like prior to
joining MAGA, your like community was like politically diverse at least? I don't consider
having been really having any communal political existence. I, certainly I would have friends,

(18:13):
I would speak with politics about, but they were never centerpieces. Politics was not a centerpiece
of my relationships. You know, in fact, I remember, I would often say with pride, I'm voting for,
I'm voting for the third party and, you know, occasionally it would come up, oh, you know,

(18:34):
if you're voting for the third party, you're really helping one or the other. I said, no,
I'm not. I'm in New York. I was living in New York until I was 35 years old. So, you know,
that was up until the 2012 election. I moved to Florida after the 2012 election. So I said,
no, I'm not. I'm in New York. I'm not helping any other candidate. No matter what, the Democrat
will win. Yeah. And so I wouldn't say that I had any political community. My communities were more

(19:02):
based in personal interests really. You know, they were based in sports and in music and in some of
the arts. I was an English major in college. So a lot of my interests were driven by literature and
humanities. But when it came to politics, I would say I paid attention a little bit, but I have to

(19:25):
reiterate the point that I was very ignorant as well. And I have to be very careful in how I say
this because I don't want to accuse others of being ignorant because ignorance is not stupidity.
I always like to qualify this. Yes. Personally speaking, I do think some of my ignorance

(19:46):
made me a bit ready-made for Trump's candidacy. Because when I look back at 2016, if I could do
this all over again, I would have voted for Hillary and I would have voted for President Biden
in 2020. And that's knowing what I know now. And of course, life will teach us if we're willing

(20:10):
to be a student. And a lot of life, it is experiential and emotional, sometimes more than
logical. But because I didn't have any political community and when Trump came along and all of a
sudden I'm having daily conversations with people who are like-minded, people who are very successful
in their industries. And their words carried weight. And again, I'm not saying any of this

(20:34):
as a self-defense, but when you're around serious people, you can be influenced by them. Even if a
lot of looking back on it, even though I know a lot of the beliefs of those serious people were
mistaken, they were sincerely held on their part, but they were wrong. But the beliefs were wrong.
The beliefs were wrong. And I came to liberatingly but painfully discover that.

(20:59):
Yeah. What do you mean when you say that you felt like your ignorance primed you,
made you susceptible?
One of the key aspects of my ignorance was that, yes, I think disillusionment about the two-party

(21:20):
system is a valid concern. But we are a two-party system. We always have been, and we're probably
always going to be. And looking back on it now, that reason alone, for me personally speaking,
should not have been enough to have supported Trump. Because not understanding the complexities

(21:46):
of our democracy, having a very, very black and white view of the world and of politics in
particular, it's easy to have that view. But what's the old adage about if something's easy?
It's probably not true or it's going to steer you in a direction that maybe

(22:08):
is the wrong pathway to try to get to the destination we want.
Mm-hmm. It's too good to be true.
Too good to be true. Black and white can give us frequent instant gratification.
But when we think about the United States as the democratic constitutional republic we are,

(22:28):
well, black and white has never made progress. But at the time, it was easy to just constantly
cast protest votes. It was easy just to vote third party without really giving
much consideration to one of the two major party candidates. And I voted third party

(22:50):
all the way up from 2000, all the way up until Trump. And even, you know what? And even when
I became a volunteer for his campaign, wrote part of the call script, was making phone calls,
even then it took me a little bit of time to actually register as a Republican.
Because I stayed independent. I changed my registration to vote in the Republican primary

(23:15):
because in the state of Florida, you have to be registered with a party to vote in the primary.
So then I voted in the primary Republican, and then I went right back to independent. So even
as I became devoted to the cause of MAGA and seeing Trump win, I still maintained a little bit.

(23:35):
That independence, and it's why I stayed as an NPA no party. But then after the election,
shortly thereafter, I said, no, I've got to become a registered Republican. That's what
President Trump is. And then I supported Republican candidates. I became an advocate
for the four, in particular, candidates he endorsed, even if they were outside of Florida.

(23:58):
So there was never for me a community until Trump came along. And why is that? And why do I think
that point is particularly salient? Because it's applicable to millions and millions of Americans
as well. Senator McCain, rest in peace. Senator Romney, President George W. Bush, they did not

(24:18):
create any kind of political community. The closest maybe to Trump before was Reaganism,
but that's an ism. That's not really a community. And a lot of Republican voters were very small,
never actually lived under President Reagan. So there wasn't anything really communal. It was

(24:41):
more mythological than communal. But then all of a sudden Trump comes along and creates this,
make America great again, community. And once I was in, I was all in, and there was no turning
back for me at that point. And would you say that that's a similar feeling from a lot of
other backup people, is like the community? I think that whether they're conscious of it or not,

(25:06):
I think that is the singular driver. Now, let me backtrack. Let me clarify a point. If I were in
court, I might say, Your Honor, clarification. It's not the singular driver, but it is perhaps
the primary, and it's certainly amongst the primary drivers of staying in MAGA.

(25:30):
Mm hmm. That makes sense. Because ideologically, and this is a point I want to also stress,
when I said a few minutes ago that there's no ideology in MAGA, that's true. The closest to it,
and this is a good segue, I think, for the topic you're working on.
The closest to any kind of ideology in MAGA is a belief of the evils of liberalism.

(25:58):
Mm hmm. Now, again, do I think that most conversations amongst MAGA Americans,
they're sitting around saying, let's talk about the evils of liberalism
economically or within civil rights or gay rights. I don't think those are not really
those kinds of conversations that I had. Mm hmm. But that's really part of the MAGA community ethos,

(26:24):
is this belief that liberalism is why America is not as great as she could be.
Like liberalism is the bad guy, so to say. And it's not just the bad guy, Vicki,
that it's an existential threat. So it's even the belief of liberalism transcends even

(26:46):
your typical villainy. Mm hmm. Okay. That it's the reason why people might economically struggle,
or belief that it's why my kids are being indoctrinated into becoming communist Marxists,
or they're being indoctrinated to become a transgender. Mm hmm. Or it's, this is why

(27:07):
the Democrats, liberalism is why Democrats want to disarm me and take away my legally owned firearm.
These were beliefs that I never thought about before MAGA. I didn't think about these,
and if I did, it was so rare. I don't even recall a moment in time over 15 years saying, oh, I had a
discussion about becoming a Marxist. Never. Yeah. Ever, ever, ever. And then all of a sudden, MAGA,

(27:32):
I'm hearing it, I'm adopting it, I'm adhering to these beliefs. And what happens in MAGA is that
there are these people, as I did, find themselves in these perpetual states of panic and desperation
and feelings of despair and hopelessness, and to use a fancy philosophical term, nihilism. Mm hmm.

(27:59):
And now keep in mind, I'm still seeing the same today. And these feelings exist
after having won. Yeah. Right now, if it was on the loss, it might make a little more logical sense
looking at it from the perspective of those in MAGA. But when I, even after the victory in 16,

(28:22):
I still, I was still in those, I still had those feelings all the time. And it wasn't that I had
them every other day or five times a week. Every single hour, I was about to lose my
self-esteem. I was about my MAGA activism. Mm hmm. There was never a day, Vicki, that I took off.
There was never an hour I took off from this. And I am not saying that hyperbolically. It became

(28:48):
who I was. And for many in MAGA, it is part of their being. Mm hmm. It's their personhood. It's
why that community is so important to them. It sounds like it, yeah. But it's, but what,
what defines is also a shared, there's a unification about a shared enemy, which is
liberalism. Mm hmm. Which is not a perfect ism. It's flawed like everyone. It's got its

(29:14):
contradictions, but it is what has, it's what's ushered in progress throughout our nation's
history. Yeah. Right? The basis, and since we're talking in a law school context, it's appropriate
to use the Latin, right? Libre, the, the, the, the Latin of that, it means free. Mm hmm. Right? So
liberalism is what has been the bedrock of increased equal freedom, not preferential

(29:40):
freedom, but equal freedom. Mm hmm. It sounds like, what it sounds like is that Trump really
tapped into a, you are all suffering. And the reason you're suffering is because of immigrants,
people, women, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. Yeah. Now, if I may say that, that's true,

(30:03):
but there was also, there was a part of that though, that focused on the political class.
And that was the part for me that I, that's what I really honed in on. Yeah. Because if
my entree into MAGA wasn't because I felt threats from minority groups, I was actually a supporter

(30:26):
of gay marriage, for example, throughout MAGA. Mm hmm. I didn't, I didn't object to it. I wasn't
opposed to it even in MAGA. And I, and I knew, I lived with gay men in college, you know, and I
remember back in the day thinking, if you want to, two men or two women want to marry, fine.
Government should have no business in that, in trying to prohibit that.

(30:46):
Mm hmm. So that was, that was how I thought, but my entree was really about the established
two party duopoly. Yeah. And Trump giving voice to this duopoly is failing the country. Because
I myself, Vicki, this is a point that I want to say is that at that period of time, 15, 16, around

(31:07):
then, I was actually doing the best economically ever in my life. So I didn't lose a job overseas.
I didn't, I didn't, my business was not adversely affected as a result of outsourcing, but I'll tell
you what, I knew people who did lose jobs in business. Mm hmm. So I was, I was honestly
thinking about them. Now, selfishly, I was also, of course, thinking about me. And in fairness,

(31:32):
people vote based in part on their interests. That's fair. Mm hmm. But for me, when I look
back on it, I was, my survivalist instincts kicked in. Mm hmm. And I felt like a Hillary
and Democratic win that my, my livelihood was going to be negatively impacted. And again, I,
I was listening to others and I, and I allowed myself to be, to be influenced in the thinking that.

(31:55):
Yeah. So when you like, I guess, discovered MAGA, was your entry like online or was it in,
or did you find people in person? Like where was the startup community for you with MAGA?
Yeah, for, for me, I would, it was, it was not entirely online. Mm hmm. A lot of,

(32:17):
not so much face to face, but a lot of just human conversations. Mm hmm. You know, talking with
other small business owners, talking with, with working Americans, middle-class Americans. And
when they would talk, what I heard a lot in what they, what they were saying was a lot of what
Trump was talking about. Mm hmm. You know, that people were saying, I work really hard and I don't

(32:40):
feel like I'm ever getting ahead. Okay. As much as I say, I'd vote for Hillary if I could go back in
time, I would challenge, I would challenge the notion that Hillary talked a lot about that topic.
I think if you go back and look at, even for example, the deplorables comment, okay, she,

(33:01):
she actually said after that comment, and I'm paraphrasing, but Americans are hurting,
a lot of the ones supporting Trump are hurting. We need to listen to them. Hillary actually said
that after the deplorables comment. So I look back on it and think if she, if she could have
just resisted the temptation to talk about deplorables and actually kept the focus on,

(33:23):
look, a lot of Americans are not doing as well as they think they should. We need to figure out why
the government has a role in trying to help them. That's what we're here for. The basis of that,
that message right there, had that been the basis of the campaign rather than let's elect the first
woman president, have a coordination, which again is what her campaign was about. Okay. And I'm,

(33:45):
and again, I'm saying this as someone who would have enthusiastically voted for her against Trump,
had I known then what I know now. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So who, who was giving voice to these
concerns, which to use the old maxim, it's deja vu all over again, because we're talking exactly
about that right now. Yeah. After this election. Yep. Yep. Yep. I agree. So, um, how's this been

(34:12):
so far? Is this, uh, is this helpful? Yes, definitely. Okay. Okay. I just want to make sure
I'm, I don't want, don't, don't, don't let me, don't let me stray too far off course, because
once, uh, once I get on a topic, it's, it's hard to shut me up. I need to do better at listening
and speaking. I'm the first to admit that. Well, I mean, like, this is, this is really good. Like,

(34:34):
um, I'm learning a lot right now because yeah, there's not a lot of studies into, um, what, like
to be, to be more specific, my paper is more like on the alt-right movement itself of which like,
you know, MAGA is a part of. Um, and there's not a lot of research into like anecdotally the alt-right,

(34:54):
if that makes sense. Um, it's, it's kind of hard to respect it, to put, to quantify feelings,
because a lot of my understanding is a lot of why people end up falling into the pipeline or, or
into MAGA movement is, is feelings. Um, and finding community and building that community.
Well, it's, so MAGA is driven essentially entirely by feelings. Yeah. Um, there's a mythology

(35:25):
within MAGA of rugged individualism. In reality, and in fact, MAGA is driven wholly by conformity
because in the community, we all publicly believe the same privately. We may think differently. In
fact, privately, I had many conversations that were critical of, of president Trump at the time.

(35:50):
After Charlottesville, during COVID, a lot of the stolen election wise, I had many,
I had many conversations that, that we said he needs to, I wish that he'd stop doing this
and stop saying this, but it is entirely emotional. And, and I, you know, I want to, if I may,

(36:10):
I'd like to ask you something about what you had just said about not a lot of studies. Yeah.
I'm wondering if you've given some thought as to, as to why that might be. I've got my own ideas.
I don't want to, I don't want to bias you, but I'm wondering if, if there's been any,
anything you've seen that sheds some insight into why maybe there's, there's not been a lot done,

(36:33):
when in fact it is a very, very important, I think, political and, and cultural and sociological
issue. Yeah. Personally, I think it's because people are trying to figure out how to study
the movement. Again, since a lot of it is like, it's hard to quantify feelings. And one of the

(36:59):
flaws with studies, with like political studies or these kinds of statistical studies is they try to
quantify. And they try to be like, look, like gather data and look at the data and this is what
the data says. Whereas like, it's, it's difficult to quantify a lot of politics. And I believe that

(37:24):
people are still trying to figure it out. And additionally, it wouldn't surprise me if it's
hard to collect data in the first place, because people you're trying to collect data from may
not be entirely truthful or entirely want to share their opinions, which is fair. Right.
Like, Laura knows I avoided all the poll calls when the election was happening. So I promise I

(37:49):
made none of them. Yeah. I didn't make calls, but just not to not into Washington state.
Yeah. So personally, like, like, I don't necessarily think there's like a,
like a malicious reason why there's not a lot of research into it. I think that perhaps

(38:09):
the community, the academic community is still trying to catch up. Now I have seen more and
more people talk about it, especially online and try to like really dissect and understand.
And there have been a lot more books written about mega movement in the past, like,
since like 2018, 2019 or so. So I think it's starting, I wouldn't be surprised if more and

(38:29):
more research started coming out soon. You know, thank you for saying that,
because more and more I'm going to be writing and publishing about my time on the quote,
unquote inside. Now there are books out there. There's works. Yeah. Those who worked in the
Trump administration, those who were, who were actual campaign officials. I was never a campaign

(38:51):
official. I was a volunteer. Yeah. But they're really, there's not a lot out there of those who
were actually in their particular community where they were located talking with other
MAGA Americans. Yeah. And that's where I feel like the value of my experience can really manifest

(39:13):
itself in learning experiences because I wouldn't talk about the inside to cast dispersions on those
I used to be around. Listeners might roll their eyes at what I'm about to say, but I believe it
to be true that most MAGA Americans deep down are good people. Yeah. Okay. I do believe there's a

(39:34):
goodness in them. Now for some, yes, they're bad people. Like any large group is going to be bad
people in there. Yeah. And I don't deny that because it would be quite naive to say otherwise.
And so I, I was very naive in my, in my pre-MAGA days, you know, because ignorance can,

(39:55):
I guess naivete is the progeny of ignorance or maybe vice versa, but they're inextricably
linked. There's no doubt in my mind about that, but most are good people deep down. Now there's
this question of, which I think pertains to the alt-right. Well, what about people in the alt-right?
Are they, do many of them, are many of them deep down, is there a goodness within them deep down?

(40:17):
And, you know, I am willing to say that there are, that there, that there is, but of course,
like any group, some are bad, but they're, I think part of the fear of why there's maybe not
as much out there as there could be is I feel like there, there's, there's this apprehension

(40:42):
about turning over stones and trying to, trying to figure out how does somebody become a neo-Nazi?
How does someone become a member of the proud boys? Okay. I, Vicki, I was at events
where the proud boys were. And you know what I used to think about them? I used to look at those

(41:06):
guys and say, these guys are hobbyists. They don't, they don't have any influence. They don't do
anything to help us win. I knew of QAnon reading it in stories here or there. And I used to think
these are just some, these are just people on the internet with time to kill talking about whatever

(41:29):
wacky stuff they're talking about. Like I, you know, I was, I was too worried and too focused on,
on, on conquering our political enemies who weren't just Democrats and liberals. It was an anti,
let's for example, an anti-Trump Republican. In fact, that person incurred our ire even more so

(41:51):
perhaps than many Democrats and liberals. So if you were not a hundred percent with us,
you were against us. And by a hundred percent, I'm not exaggerating. If you were 99% with us,
you were 0% with us. Now is there, is there an overlap between a lot of the beliefs in MAGA
and also in the alt-right? Yes, there are. And I don't proclaim to think that I solely have the

(42:17):
answer, but what, what has happened in, in a polarized nation that you alluded to at the
outset is that part of the reason, what, what feeds into this Hydra of polarization
is that people think that if they try to understand a perspective, that it must mean that they're

(42:41):
agreeing with it, that they're accepting it, that they're defending it. I'm not asking anyone to
defend Arianism. I'm not asking anyone to defend homophobia, but the question I posit is,
does it make sense for us as a country to try to figure out how they got to that point? Something

(43:08):
we are developing at Leaving MAGA and our work is what I call, so they're, they're miss and
disinformation literacy workshops and they're entitled, where did you hear that? Now what's
the idea behind it? It's, it's not to pass doubt on someone's intelligence or good character. It's

(43:32):
not what we're, but it is about us hearing where we, the origin sources of information that we use
to guide our beliefs and shape our worldview. So I think there is, I think there is just,
there's this phobia of how does someone, how does someone reach a point of thinking that

(43:57):
America should be ruled as a Christian nation? And I'm after that. I'm after the why.
Yeah. You know, and I, and I'm still looking with you, you know, I'm still out there looking for,
but there's no doubt that that is, has that way of thinking permeates both MAGA and the alt-right.

(44:18):
Yeah. It, my understanding, and based on what you just said, and what really struck me was when you
said like how you continue to fear, to feel like the fear and despair would that my understanding
is all right, is that a lot of people who end up falling are often also in a place of instability

(44:43):
and chaos and yeah, not feeling secure. And when you feel insecure or you lack a community
and you're lonely, you're easily influenced because you're looking for that human connection.
And it sounds like, you know, there's overlap in that area where MAGA people, people who fall into

(45:05):
MAGA are in some kind of way insecure and in some kind of way looking for some, for connection.
And your story like reflects that pretty well. And I, and I think, and I appreciate you saying
that because what I like also about how you're approaching this, if I may say is there's not a,

(45:29):
there's not a homogenous approach, right? There's not a, there's not, oh, everyone in MAGA,
everyone in the alt-right must be identical, had, must have had identical or close to experiences
and upbringings. And it's really important, I think, to look at these issues this way, because
to, to better understand is to also always, is to remember that we are a somewhat contradictory

(45:58):
homo sapien species. We're, we're, we're, we're complex and sometimes we're conscious of those
complexities and, and sometimes we're not. And that's where honest research can really shed a
lot of light on how do we get to this point? I've been trying for example, recently to get
an interview with Nick Fuentes. Now, why do I want to interview, why in the hell do you want to

(46:23):
interview Nick Fuentes? Here's why. I want to know how he, how did he wind up with those beliefs?
Yeah. How'd he get here? Yeah.
I don't want to debate him about the features and benefits of an all-white
society because he and I are not going to agree on that. I'm not focused on the disagreement.
I'm focused on how did you come to that belief? Yeah.

(46:48):
Who were the individuals? Who were the influences? Yeah.
And this part about why we can get subsumed into a far-right, really traumatic existence,
because I would argue that if you feel like, if you're a neo-Nazi, there's a lot of trauma
in there somewhere. Okay. And I'm not a psychologist. I'm not qualified whatsoever

(47:12):
to make an assessment like that. But it's easy to get subsumed into it because these mythologies
are more influential than a lot of people think. And in addition to all of this,
what I said at the DNC, I had a vignette that aired on night one. And what I said in that

(47:33):
testimonial was that Trump's toxic superpower is lying. So you've got mythologies about
super races and the superiority of one gender over another, let's say,
and why we're best as a Christian heterosexual country. So you've got those mythologies.

(47:55):
And then you mix them with ad infinitum lies. And then we get a sum. And that sum is often a
lot of the inaccurate beliefs within MAGA and within the alt-right. And one of the hardest

(48:17):
parts for me in leaving MAGA, and I want everyone to know it was August 30th, 2022.
It took me an entire year to leave. And one of the reasons it was so hard was walking away from
the community that I established. I had a second family of MAGA Americans, and this second family

(48:44):
sometimes took precedence over my own blood family. I'm embarrassed to admit that, but it is the
truth. Another reason that made it so difficult was that I had to accept that I wasn't just wrong
about one or two beliefs. I was wrong about years worth of beliefs that I held so dear to myself.
Yeah. And I was wrong. Yeah. And I was wrong. And some of the reasons why I left, it started in the

(49:10):
summer of 21. Ron DeSantis started having anti-vaxxers at his press conferences, and Trump was still
talking about a stolen election, which I didn't believe. And I came to understand a little better
that January 6th had some coordination by the most powerful person in the world. And then you had
the Republican Party in early 22 saying, oh, the January 6th was legitimate political discourse.

(49:34):
Those were their words. And then for me, the final straw was May of 22, which was the Uvalde
school shooting. Yeah. And I should say also, I have no problem to say this, I've been a firearm
owner for many years. I actually conceal carry a firearm every single day. I'm a believer in
responsible firearm ownership. It is a unique American right. It's also uniquely American how

(49:58):
many people die and are injured every year from firearms. So to me, the arguments are just silly
and absurd what a lot of pro-gun groups propagate and what they espouse. So it took me an entire year
having these doubts vacillating between, I can't support this anymore, but then I would look at a

(50:20):
speech I gave at a Trump group and I would say, no, no, no, I'm in the right place. We're just,
we're going through a rough patch now. But it was on August 30th, 2022, I published a Maya Culpa.
And in that Maya Culpa, I said, I supported Trump and DeSantis and MAGA. I was wrong. I'm sorry that
I did. And I want to acknowledge my mistake. When I pressed publish, I didn't regret it for a singular

(50:47):
second, but the God's honest truth here, Vicki, okay. And I'm saying it to a student at a Jesuit
university here, the God's honest truth. I never thought anybody would care. Never thought anyone
would give a damn. The moment I published that apology, Rich, can you talk to my brother? Rich,

(51:11):
can you talk to my mother? Rich, my best friend of 40 years and I don't speak anymore. I was
completely oblivious to all of this. So I realized after being inundated instantaneously that people
cared. And I spent the next year trying to refine my political footing as an American,
as a citizen, as a human being, as a dad and as a husband telling my story. I spent the next year

(51:37):
telling my story. And I came to realize more and more that people wanted to hear it. And then that
accelerated the founding information of Leaving MAGA as an organization, where I find myself now.
Well, that's a perfect segue into the next couple set of questions. So yeah, like, so when you

(51:59):
started Leaving MAGA, well, that's perfect, like how you, how you explained how you got here. But
I guess like what, when you, when you focus on building community, where are you building
community? Is it mostly online or people like reaching out to you individually? Do you have
like a group chat like kind of situation? Like how do you build that? Sure. Thank you. And I have to

(52:24):
just say that the creation of Leaving MAGA has been completely accidental. It was, I could, I
could lie and say, oh, I had a two year game plan. Yeah. And we were going to be here at this point
and there at that point. No, it's all accidental. And I was like, oh, I'm going to be here at this

(52:45):
accidental. Because the, I would really say the Leaving MAGA and its embryonic form was really
early 2023. Cause at that point I had had several months of telling my story, realizing that people
wanted to hear it. But there was no, there was nothing congealed in my mind about having a

(53:08):
nonprofit, having a, having some kind of organization, some community. But when I look back on it,
the seeds were planted in that early 23 period. And then I just went through the whole year telling
my story. And then by the end of 23, 2023, I started to have this phrase I would use a lot,
Leaving MAGA, Leaving MAGA. And I thought, you know, that would make for a really good

(53:30):
organization name. I know nothing about nonprofits. I've been a small business owner.
I am now, but I thought, I don't know anything about this, but I met a few people who said,
Hey Rich, I really believe in your cause. I'll help you. And I said, okay, thank you. So I immediately
took that, shamelessly, I took their help, right? You know, and they, and they were so charitable
and offering their guidance and expertise. But when I started it, I didn't know what direction

(53:57):
it would take, but I knew that it had to be a place without judgment, without ostracization,
where we could tell the stories of people who left. So who we are is really a new community
for people who leave MAGA, for people who might have doubts about their support, and also for

(54:18):
friends and family of those who are still in the thrall of MAGA. That's who we are. What we do
is we tell stories. Now we are looking to expand how those stories are told. For the most part,
it has been through online, through a variety of media, both online, digital, print. We are creating

(54:44):
the workshop I mentioned earlier. Where did you hear that? Those are designed to be in person.
We do have a game plan for 2025 where we're going to have, I'm going to call it a chapter.
There will be a Leaving MAGA chapter in each state. And we're going to have leaders in each
state who are going to help, as leaders, they're going to have the responsibility of talking with

(55:09):
others to get their testimonials, to provide support for those who have left, for those who
are thinking about leaving. When I started the group, I want to say, Vicki, that I knew that
the outcome we just got in the election, that that was a possibility, but I was undeterred.
And as I was driving home on election night, I knew we'd lost. I know the votes are still coming

(55:34):
in, but I knew we'd lost. So driving in, I had never ever planned on waving the white flag with
Leaving MAGA, even in defeat. But I do remember thinking, I wonder how the marketplace is going
to respond to Leaving MAGA now. I wonder what our followers are, what are they going to say about it?
I was back at work at 6 AM the next morning to get back on Leaving MAGA. And you know what? I was

(55:57):
getting message after message after message, Rich, don't stop. Rich, we need what you're doing more
than ever. Rich, I don't know where your mind's at now. Please don't quit this. And I would tell
everyone and say, look, to be clear, number one, I never had any intention whatsoever
of closing down shop. But secondly, don't worry, we're actually, we're putting in the

(56:20):
head down, moving full steam ahead on this. And so we've actually never been, even though it's just
a few weeks after the election, Leaving MAGA, because we were founded this year, we've actually
never been busier than recently. And we're telling stories about people left. We've just started
telling the stories of people who have friends and family in MAGA. And all they want is their

(56:45):
relationships back. They don't want their friends and family to stop being a conservative. They
just, they want them out of that community because I try to separate the community with the people.
The MAGA community has torn asunder families, friendships. It's pitted complete strangers

(57:08):
against each other. And it's divided households and other communities and places of worship. And
Vicki, damn it, I need to say, I'm sorry that I'm culpable in helping divide. I helped Trump do that.

(57:29):
I am complicit in that. And I want Leaving MAGA to be something that is not
driven by sympathy, but is really driven by making amends. And I want everyone in the country to know
that Leaving MAGA is, everybody has an invitation to Leaving MAGA, whether they feel like they have

(57:52):
left or they're thinking about leaving or a family member or relative, a close friend wants to tell
their story. They are welcome in our community. And our community is growing by the way.
And our community is growing by the day. And I don't take any credit for that. That's our team.
We have a dedicated pro bono team who really believe in building this community. So I know

(58:19):
it's going to be hard. I know that there's the possibility that maybe we don't have a lot of
success. I know there's the chance that this could be a quixotic futile endeavor. But I don't think
it's going to be though. I don't think it will be because I think Americans really deep down are

(58:41):
looking for a reason to believe. And no one is doing what we are doing. And I'm not saying it
because it's my idea. Let me just preface with that. If creating a new community for people to
leave MAGA, if this concept isn't enough to get people to leave, nothing will. Because

(59:05):
to leave a community, you've got to have a new destination. In fact, I'd argue that without a
new destination, even some people in MAGA who want to leave, they know that they should,
are likely not to leave if they don't have a new place to go. Because as much as it might be
uncomfortable staying in the MAGA community, it will be more uncomfortable to leave with nowhere

(59:28):
to go. And again, I'm not saying this in any kind of self-aggrandizing way, but when I left,
I had nowhere to go. I don't know where the hell I was going, but I knew that I needed to get out.
And I did. And I just was at that crossroads. Thankfully, some of our more religious listeners

(59:50):
might feel like maybe it was divine intervention that I got myself on the pathway that I was meant
to go through it. I studied theology as a minor in college. We studied communism. I respect John
Calvin's intellect. I don't really believe in predestiny because all of us have free will.
So I'd like to think I left on my own volition, but I'd also like to think that along the way,

(01:00:13):
I also was guided. And I was guided by people around me who accepted my apology. I went to
friends of mine, people I'd known for many, many years, and I had told them,
this is what I thought about you as a Democrat. I knew you were a blue voter, and I may not have

(01:00:35):
said your name publicly, but because you were a blue voter, I lumped you into a group of enemy
political combatants who were trying to harm my life, my family, and my livelihood. And I went
and apologized to all of them. And you know what, Vicki, every single one of them accepted my
apology. In fact, one who was particularly important to my upbringing... I served in the

(01:01:01):
student ministry for two years at my university, and he was the director. Not only did he accept
my apology, but he said to me, Rich, I always knew you'd come back. Ain't that something?
Yeah.
You see, you said earlier about forgiveness. I believe the American people are forgiving
and are graceful. Now, having said that, do I think that we should give that forgiveness carte

(01:01:26):
blanche without any accountability? No. When I said at the outset that there's one non-negotiable
requirement, I'm going to tell you what it is. You have to take accountability for your past actions
and rhetoric. I will never ask anyone to forgive without the other person saying, I was wrong and
I'm sorry. And when we have people saying, I'm wrong and I'm sorry, it's not a natural act to do

(01:01:50):
that. It isn't. But I believe that the American people are a graceful people and they can find a
way for reconciliation. Reconciliation is very crucial to the mission of leaving MAGA,
empowering people, having them tell their stories, reconciliation with friends and family,
and also developing movement leaders to help others leave. All this is very crucial to the

(01:02:15):
work that we do. But it shouldn't be for free, that forgiveness. It has to be earned. And I
want to change societally the way that we look at apologizing because apologizing should be
celebrated and not stigmatized. Yes. No, that's great. And so it sounds like when you were going

(01:02:42):
through your, like when you were starting to leave, were you completely, like, did you talk
to anyone at all? Did you have anyone to talk to or were you just kind of in your own thoughts?
A lot of late nights at the computer. You know, wife was asleep, kids were asleep, cat next to me,
just thinking about there were these moments of what did I do? What did I support? How could I

(01:03:08):
have supported this person? But then I would ping pong to a different set of emotions like,
no, no, no, I'm in the right place. I believe in this cause. And I just went through that for an
entire year. And I like to say, to paraphrase Ernest Hemingway, one of our most venerable authors

(01:03:33):
in American history, my weaving maga epiphany happened gradually and then suddenly all at once.
And given our Jesuit, many in the audience, listeners who are people of faith,
my road to Damascus moment was real. You know, we think about Saul in the Bible where the scales

(01:03:55):
fall from his eyes. I had a road to Damascus moment. I just, I didn't know that I was going
through that as I was going through it. And then it got to a point after you Valdi where I privately,
I privately said, I'm out. I can't do this anymore. My conscience, the alarm would just not stop

(01:04:18):
sounding. But Vicki, I quietly left, but something was gnawing at me saying, no, no, no,
no. You were very, I was very unapologetically public in my support for Trump. What was really
nagging at me was that I should be unapologetically public about renouncing what I believe he's,

(01:04:41):
what he stands for. And that's what led me to that mea culpa that I published.
It wasn't enough for me to do it quietly. I had to do it loudly the way I had always been very loud
in my support for Trump and for MAGA. And that's how it led to me. So it was very much an individual
process for me. And you know what? Again, I consider myself really fortunate that I've been

(01:05:06):
able to land where I am right now. But for those out there who have left and want to tell a story,
but they're afraid, I respect that, but you've got a place for us to tell a story. For those out there
who are maybe having those doubts like I did, something was said or happened that commenced

(01:05:27):
doubts for them. I want them to know that they don't have to go through this, the process of
leaving on an individual basis. They've got us for support. They're not alone. Yeah. They're not alone.
You have a community. And they've got a new community of others who also left and can relate

(01:05:47):
so much to what they've gone through and what they're going through at the moment.
It was liberating for me. I emancipated myself from the manacles of MAGA and the moment I did it,
I've not had a singular regret since doing it over two years ago.

(01:06:07):
Well, that's great. You're absolutely right. People don't like to admit that they're wrong.
And it takes a lot of courage to be willing to have your foundations and personhood shaken
and completely dismantled and rebuilt. That takes a lot of courage. And you should be proud of

(01:06:31):
yourself. And I'm sure a lot of people in your life are as well.
Well, thank you for saying that and for caring about what we're doing. I'd like to ask if you've
got some more questions. I know we ran a little bit over. I want to be respectful of your time.
I'm good to continue for a while. I kind of scheduled an hour. Do you have a hard stop time?

(01:06:58):
Ideally, yes. I wanted to propose if there might be a way for us to schedule a follow-up time.
Sure. Yeah. I do have a couple more questions just on the community building aspect.
But when would be best for you?
Yeah. Thank you. Because I don't like to rush through the end. I would rather,

(01:07:23):
if it works for your schedule, to schedule another time because it's very important for me.
You reached out to me and are taking the time. And I feel like you should,
I always feel I should reciprocate to do that because you're taking the time out
and telling my story. So I'm grateful to you. Let me take a look here. Are you working on a

(01:07:46):
particular deadline also? I'm at kind of like, technically my papers do on the 5th, but I can
ask for an extension. So like, I'm not too worried. I'm going to go ahead and stop the recording
right now. So yeah, sure. Sure.