September 12, 2024 • 23 mins
During times of injury or sickness, it is not unusual for people to turn to self-medication. The most common forms are food, alcohol and drugs - but this can be a slippery slope and end up in addiction, which as we all know can be very dangerous.
On this episode, MSSN Founder Dr Caroline Howe speaks with Zoe Cook, creator of the Pink Cloud app, which works to assist women to combat the use of alcohol addiction while also creating a community of supportive people available to help.
Pink Cloud: iOS and Android.
Zoe also mentioned a screening tool - Pink Cloud would be appropriate for those with a score of 8 or more: Alcohol Use Disorders Identification Test
Also during the interview, Zoe mentioned an app that will assist people with opiod addiction issues called TaperMate.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the My Social Support Network podcast,
a series to guide you along the path to recovery
while on workers compensation. In this series, we will answer
questions from you and provide information from experts and people
with lived experience currently going through worker's compensation and those
who have made their way to the other side. Through
these interactions, we'll be giving you tools, advice, but most importantly,
(00:24):
encouragement on what can be a stressful time when you're
also recovering from an injury sustained in your workplace.
S2 (00:32):
Often with people who struggle with alcohol at the first
time they have. It is sort of this magic switch moment. Wow,
this really makes me feel better. And while everyone else
could stop, I wanted to stay and keep going.
S3 (00:44):
Today we're talking to Zoe Cook. Zoe has developed the
Pink Cloud app. It is an app designed for women
who are struggling with alcohol. Because we know that women
quit drinking differently. One of the great things about the app,
and one of the reasons we really wanted to talk
to her today is that she has been able to
develop a community inside that app, so that you don't
(01:05):
have to solve this problem alone. There is a community
of people available to you, and we're really excited to
talk to Zoe to get a little bit more information
of how you can get the app, what triggers you
need to see and how you can get help. Zoe,
I am so excited to talk to you today because
effectively what you have developed is the solution to a
(01:26):
problem we don't talk about very often. The issue of
first people going towards alcohol after they've had an injury,
but particularly women who really struggle with alcohol after an
injury is something that is not spoken about. It is
a huge burden for women and knowing that there is
(01:46):
a solution out there is an absolute joy for me
because we often get people referred and you don't know
what's going on. But at some point in time this
comes up and knowing that that's a place where we
can refer for help is just brilliant. So thank you
so much for coming onto the podcast today and talking
to us.
S2 (02:06):
Well, thank you for inviting me. I'm very happy to
be here.
S3 (02:08):
So I wondered if you could give us a little
bit of context to your story and then also tell
us how you came to thinking about this in the
first place.
S2 (02:19):
Mm. Yeah. Good question. I suppose, you know, I would
go right back to my high school days. You know,
things for me started to change when I hit high school.
I'd been very laid back and relaxed. Kid grew up
in Canberra, you know, just going with the flow. But
when I hit high school, that's when I started experiencing
extreme anxiety, especially around social situations. And when I was
(02:41):
in year 12. And like a lot of young people,
I had my first real experience with drinking. Um, and
I still remember my first drink was a guava flavoured cruiser.
And I remember a few minutes after having it, it
was like this magic switch flipped in my brain and
suddenly all those anxious thoughts just disappeared. And, you know,
(03:01):
the more I drank, the freer I felt. And it
was like I finally had permission to let loose and
enjoy being with people and not worry about what everyone
was thinking. And all through university, you know, the uni
life of every Thursday, Friday we'd go out drinking with friends.
And that's when I started to notice that, you know,
while everyone else could stop or switch to water or,
(03:23):
you know, want to go home, I wanted to stay
and keep going. You know, during that whole time I
was studying psychology, I was really drawn to it. And
I think partly because, you know, I was trying to
figure myself out anyway, you know, after I finished my degree,
I put myself into a role working for some psychologists. And,
you know, during this time, drinking was continuing, it became
more regular. And I noticed, you know, my habits, they
(03:45):
were getting more and more unhealthy. And then towards the
end of my 20s, I started to realize, this isn't great,
I need to get control of this. And around that
time is when I met my husband. You know, you
might think that would be motivation for me to quit drinking,
but my drinking got worse because dating was also something
that I found incredibly stressful. You know, the more you
like someone, often, the more anxious you feel about everything
going well. And, you know, the next few years I
(04:08):
found myself in a cycle of drinking heavily in the
evenings to cope with the stress. And yeah, then when
I was 34, I had been trying to quit drinking,
then for about six years, quite seriously. And that was
when I fell pregnant with my daughter. And actually not
drinking during pregnancy was really surprisingly easy. And I think
because it's easier to give up when someone else's life
(04:30):
depends on it rather than your own. And then when
I stopped breastfeeding, you know, I thought, I'll just I'll
ease back into drinking because obviously I don't have a problem,
I can stop. So just start again. And the reality
was quite different. And before I knew it, my drinking
was right back to where I was before I got pregnant,
if not worse. You know, I could see it was
(04:51):
taking a toll on me as a parent in the hours,
even when I wasn't drinking and I didn't want to
set that example for her. So that's really when I
decided to quit. Um, for good.
S3 (05:02):
It's there's one part of battling with something and knowing
you should, you know, I should do this. And when
we get there, I'll do this. So it's really brave
and very, very hard work to make a decision to
change and stick to it. Yes. And it cannot be
understated how hard that is. Yeah.
S2 (05:21):
I think the average is 18 years to from when
you first decide to when when people actually seek help, it's.
S3 (05:27):
A long time. And then taking what you've learnt and
then wanting to help everybody else with that.
S2 (05:33):
Yeah, I think it was, um, noticing the things that
helped me quit drinking. I mean, everyone's journey is different,
but sometimes hearing what worked for someone else, you know,
can give you some ideas. And, you know, for me,
one of the big things was educating myself about what
alcohol actually does to the body. And that was quite
terrifying for me.
S3 (05:52):
Did that happen before you made that decision. So because
I'm trying to understand, you've given it up, you've had
a baby Covid hit, things go crazy. And and the
stress of a child and everybody's social lives, those connections,
that community has really been disrupted. What did you do to, like,
ask for help in the first place?
S2 (06:13):
I try, yeah, I did try to do it on
my own for a really long time. You hear a
lot about like a dramatic rock bottom moment, but I
never had that. It was more like a gradual awakening,
you know? I just felt so bad about myself and
who I was becoming. And I think I first spoke
to my GP in mid 2022, and that was really
a turning point for me. And that's when I realized
(06:35):
that getting a community of support was a really important part,
telling people the whole thing about shame. And when you
speak to shame, you speak about something shameful and people
meet you with empathy. You know, shame can't continue. And
so I definitely found that was true. I was really
lucky to have a great GP and a great psychologist
who were very empathetic and supportive. But I also think
(06:58):
that wasn't the end of the story. It was a
whole lot of things. Like I said, you know, being
fed up, not wanting my daughter to see that sort
of behavior and the shame and and feeling unwell physically
as well.
S3 (07:12):
So what made you then move towards the Pink Cloud app?
Because the app fascinates me. It's an incredible tool. How
did you go from I need to help myself to
let's invent this thing that is going to help people.
S2 (07:27):
Yes. It was an idea that came to me sort
of slowly and then all at once. And I guess, honestly,
I developed it because I saw a real need for it,
both in my life and in the lives of other
women who were struggling with quitting alcohol. And, you know,
when I was looking for support, I noticed there weren't
many resources specifically for women that combined practical tools with
(07:51):
this supportive community of people to test and use them with,
and I really wanted to create something based on evidence.
You know, tracking progress for motivation and using cognitive behavioral
therapy techniques, building routines, targeted education, things that we know
work for treating alcohol overuse, but often because of the stigma,
(08:12):
particularly for women around talking about this issue, that they
aren't seeking help from GPS psychologists. And so this mobile app,
I felt, would be ideal because, you know, it fits
into your schedule, but you can use it anywhere. No
one sees you. You don't have to necessarily speak to
another person. The community is there if you want it.
It's free, non-judgmental. I think that was a really big thing.
(08:35):
I really want it to be a warm, inviting place.
A lot of the apps at the moment are, um,
quite clinical.
S3 (08:41):
So what inspired you to call the app Pink Cloud?
S2 (08:47):
I don't know if you've heard of the term the
pink cloud in recovery. Most people who've recovered from alcohol
will have heard of it, because it's the time when
everything feels like it's coming together beautifully. You know, there's
always this pink cloud period. Usually earlier on. It's a
bit of a euphoria, like, I've done it, I've quit.
It doesn't stay forever, but it is a lovely feeling.
(09:08):
And that and the fact that pink, you know, and
female is often intertwined.
S3 (09:13):
It's lovely. And can you explain how it works?
S2 (09:16):
Yes, yes. Um, so I mentioned the features of it earlier. Ideally,
users would log in each day and use the app
to track how they did that day. So whether they
did drink or didn't drink, what their mood was like,
if they had any triggers, if they had any cravings.
(09:37):
And it's a really quick short list that they fill
out to track that information. You can be as detailed
or as not as you like. And there's also a
section to make notes and journal, and that all feeds
into a tracking system that allows you to see over
time how you're doing behaviorally, whether you're drinking or not drinking,
and adds up benefits for you as well, for your body,
(09:59):
for your sleep, for all these health measures. But it
also allows you to track, you know, what your mood
is doing when your cravings are high, or what triggers
were around when your cravings were highest. And to get
that self-knowledge. And when you do select certain triggers or
mood difficulties, the app will direct you to resources specifically
(10:23):
about how you can manage that particular issue. So tailored education,
I think. Also, I like the idea of the community
there because that's something you can tap into at any time.
You know, obviously if you have a smartphone and you're
using it as an app, you usually have that with
you anywhere. So if you are having a really hard
time or a strong craving hits, you can jump in
there and ask for support.
S3 (10:44):
When you describe community, as far as the app goes,
what does that mean in the sense of community within
the app.
S2 (10:52):
Yes, it's a very new app. So the vision for
community is that there will be. It's like texting really, um,
within the app. But at the moment, because apps are
very expensive to build, we're using WhatsApp, which is a
really secure platform for this type of group chat. Um,
and so that's what the support will look like, whatever
people ask. Eventually, a community of people who are struggling
(11:15):
with the same issues, who can respond and provide support.
S3 (11:19):
I can see a whole merchandise thing coming out of this. Perhaps,
you know, the pink cloud caravan that can go from
community to community.
S2 (11:30):
I think that's.
S3 (11:31):
A fantastic with my social support network. Your Best tomorrow
begins today. It's going to throw that out there because,
as I said, it's so important that this is something
that is spoken about. And you're absolutely right. When we
name something we feel ashamed about, it loses its power
and we so often don't hear that. And yet it's
(11:52):
so important to really take that on board. And knowing
for someone that if this is an area that they
feel ashamed about because they can't get on top of it,
that there is somewhere to go to get support. If
someone was to use the Pink Cloud app and they
are transferred to the services, how do you as an
(12:15):
organization stay connected to them? Or once they've chosen to
go off to that service, is there a way to
check in on them, you know, to make sure that
they still feel part of that community? Because an app
is so easy to pick up and put down. I
have many, many weight loss apps on my phone that
just sit quietly beside me. But there is one that
(12:35):
actually texts me and reminds me and says, you haven't
checked in. Are you okay? So is that the kind
of functionality that this could eventually have?
S2 (12:44):
It would be amazing. I think that you're right. There
is a real limitation in apps that the person has
to be motivated to use it. And that is the
case with this app as well. But I see that
even if the app does refer to a service that
that person needed, that that's a win. Certainly investors don't
see it that way. They want to hang on to
as many people as possible, and I can see the
(13:05):
benefits that they get from using it are enough to
keep them, but it does send you alerts if you
allow it to. It will remind you to log each day,
and ideally it would become part of your routine to
do that.
S3 (13:17):
And what kind of other services would they be referred to?
S2 (13:20):
All of the the standard Australian mental health services, you know,
the crisis support services, but also some of the organizations
that provide more specialized support. So sober in the country,
you know, for people Rurally there is a couple of
services in Sydney that I've linked in with who will
(13:40):
take calls live to, to offer support. Yeah, places like,
you know, Beyondblue, lifeline, all of all of those. But yeah,
there are a few psychologists as well in Canberra who
I have on the app now, and I'm hoping to
keep building that. You will see the resources section is
something I can keep building. Yeah. So the more connections
I make and the more referrals I get, that would
be great.
S3 (14:00):
Well, I have not heard, and I am loathe to
say this, that I don't know everything, but I know
stand back. But I've actually not come across anything like this.
So it's really exciting because as I said before, like
this is something that I know we struggle with in
our community. There are people there that can really this
(14:23):
can add such great value to. So I'm very, very excited.
AA is always the thing that if you have an
alcohol problem, you're supposed to go to AA and you
go and meet in a church hall and you go
and have a cup of tea and you talk about things.
There is research out there that talks about I think AA,
as far as I understand, is probably more male dominated
(14:45):
as an organization.
S2 (14:47):
Yes, there is research that women do tend to prefer
the e-health options rather than meeting in person, so I'm
not sure if that's what it is about. AA the
whole idea that women tend to be the caretakers, and
so finding time to leave the house and attend a
meeting can be quite hard for women.
S3 (15:06):
Especially with young children.
S2 (15:08):
Impossible and unpredictable. You know, those meetings are at scheduled times,
and if you can't get to them, there's not another
chance for a while, you know? So something that you
can access at the time that works for you is good. Hello, Zoe.
I know a.
S4 (15:20):
Few people who may not really realize it themselves yet, um,
that they are overusing alcohol or even drugs for that matter,
to sort of self-medicate and take the edge off. Um,
is there an option to be able to utilize your
app from a drug perspective rather than just alcohol? Whilst.
S2 (15:40):
Yeah, whilst there is similarities, you know, addiction is addiction
the resources are really tailored to alcohol. So yeah, there's not.
But I know there is a girl in another woman
in Canberra. She's a pharmacist who she's developed an app
called Taper Mate, which is for people who use opioids
to help them taper off safely because generally with alcohol,
(16:02):
and this is not medical advice in any way. And
the app doesn't purport to provide any medical advice. But
in general, if you're having a higher amount of alcohol
and you quit, it can be quite dangerous if you
go cold turkey. But a lot of people who are
wanting to quit maybe aren't drinking to that level and
can stop completely. Whereas with opioids there is evidence that
(16:23):
it's better to taper off. I believe.
S3 (16:25):
Someone's listening. You're a mum, you've had a couple of drinks,
you are stressed, you are anxious, you can't get outside.
You're starting to feel really isolated. What would be three
things that a female could use as a checklist that
would tell them, yes, I think I need to find
the app and download it and give it a go.
S2 (16:46):
Oh great question. If they have any inkling that they
are worried that they're drinking too much, that is generally
a really good sign that they possibly are. If they
are hiding their drinking from other people, if they want
to stop at a certain number of drinks but struggle
to do so, that's, I think, a third.
S3 (17:08):
I think what I love about your list is that
you don't necessarily have to have a full blown problem, right?
One that actually impacts your ability to function. But if
you are a little bit worried, if you are thinking
that you might need a drink because you've got to
cope with whatever event is about to happen, then maybe
(17:30):
this is the right app to download and just check
as well, and then you might not need it every day.
But I guess it was also a really lovely tool
to use before it becomes a problem. And then to
have that opportunity to have a community of support, whether
it is a big problem or a little problem. But
if it's something that you question, then it would be
time to download the app and just, you know, use
(17:52):
it as that tool, use it to build routine, use
it to get feedback. Use it to set up better
healthy habits. I mean, all of those things can really
benefit people anyway.
S2 (18:01):
Yes, absolutely. One of the differences between men and women,
women face different emotional challenges when it comes to alcohol
use and recovery as well. And women drink more to
cope with stress and anxiety and trauma. And their drinking
is kind of entwined with their roles. And as a result,
in recovery, they often benefit from like a more holistic
approach that addresses not just the physical aspect of quitting,
(18:24):
but the emotional and psychological dimensions, you know, so providing
support that helps them manage stress or deal with traumas
or navigate complex emotions. And like you were saying, Caroline,
even if you don't necessarily feel that alcohol is your
major problem, there are other lifestyle supports in the app
that can help you.
S5 (18:43):
Hi. Um, Zoe, how are you today?
S2 (18:46):
I'm well. How are.
S5 (18:47):
You? I do have a friend. She's a woman. And
after injury, um, she was, like, very dependent on alcohol,
especially on beer. So every night, she goes, like, she
feels like she wanted to drink a bottle or a
couple of bottles, uh, bottle of beers every night to
make her sleep. So it's every day. So given the
numbers of intakes, like, uh, 1 to 2 bottles per day, uh,
(19:09):
is it considered like an alcoholism already?
S2 (19:13):
Yeah, that's a really good question. And not uncommon for
people to want to use alcohol to help get off
to sleep. And interestingly, it actually really disturbs your sleep.
Science tells us so my definition of alcoholism that I've
sort of taken from a man called Gabor Mate, who's
a psychiatrist from Canada, he talks about addiction as being
(19:36):
something that you do that makes you feel less of
whatever pain you're feeling that you want to stop doing
because it has some negative side effects but that you
can't stop doing. And so I think I would recommend
that person kind of think about that. Is it something
that they want to stop doing but can't? And if so,
(19:57):
then they might want to look at getting some support
to stop.
S3 (20:00):
And maybe the other part is could they stop. Mhm.
Because I many years ago had a lecturer and we
were talking about addictions. And the room full of these
young very preppy, you know, know it alls in our
mind we often think about addiction as severe alcohol or
severe drug use. And he said who have you drink coffee.
(20:20):
Who of you can stop drinking coffee? Therefore, if you
can't stop drinking coffee, do not judge anybody who has
an addiction because that is an addiction. So that idea
of addiction is can you stop? Doesn't even necessarily always
mean it's going to impact your day. But let's its
face it, for those who are coffee addicts, if you
(20:42):
can't not have a coffee and are unable to function,
then that is just as serious. We don't have an
app for that. No, but unfortunately.
S2 (20:51):
And this is something that tends to ramp up when
you do quit drinking. A lot of people turn to
coffee and other vices.
S3 (20:59):
Yes, exercise anything. Anything is, you know, food. We can
become addicted to a lot of things. So if you
were to give any piece of advice as to why
they should consider something like downloading the Pink Cloud app,
what would that be?
S2 (21:17):
It leads on very nicely from what we've just been
talking about. I think if alcohol is something that you
do do to make yourself feel in any way less
pain or less discomfort, and you know that it is
harmfully impacting your life, but you aren't able to stop
or you're struggling to cut back, then I think it
is worth downloading the app and having a try.
S3 (21:40):
I think that's a lovely message to leave this on.
This is something that they can do and it will
inspire someone else. So we thank you for today. You
have invented something that is so needed, and I know
that we'll be referring people to this app all the time.
S2 (21:55):
Amazing.
S3 (21:56):
Thank you. Get ready for the My social support network
Pink Cloud app community about to arise.
S2 (22:02):
I can't wait for the Van Roadshow 2025.
S3 (22:07):
We want to thank Zoe for coming onto the podcast today.
It's been so inspiring to hear about what she has done,
turning her story into something that can really help other people.
We know that women quit drinking differently, and it's never
too early to just check if you need some help.
We're also really excited about getting that caravan up and
(22:28):
running and being able to be out there in the community,
helping people with any of these kinds of barriers, because
the whole point of my social support network is to
build a community, and we're doing that with you.
S1 (22:41):
If you feel the Pink Cloud app is applicable to
you or someone you know. Go to WW Dot Pink
Cloud app.com. That's Pink Cloud app.com where you will find
links to both the Android and Apple versions. During the interview,
Zoe mentioned a screening tool and this alcohol self-test can
be found at order screen.org. If you're finding yourself going
(23:05):
through a tough time at the moment or this episode
raised some issues you would like to speak to someone about,
then reach out to lifeline on 13 1114. Beyond Blue
on 1300 224 636 or the 24 hour Mental Health Assistance line
on one 800 01511. And of course, if it's an
(23:28):
emergency and you require urgent support, please reach out to
the ambulance or police service on 000. Thank you so
much for joining us and we'll see you next time.
Hello and welcome to the My Social Support Network podcast,
a series to guide you along the path to recovery
while on workers compensation. In this series, we will answer
questions from you and provide information from experts and people
with lived experience currently going through worker's compensation and those
who have made their way to the other side. Through
these interactions, we'll be giving you tools, advice, but most importantly,
(00:24):
encouragement on what can be a stressful time when you're
also recovering from an injury sustained in your workplace.
S2 (00:32):
Often with people who struggle with alcohol at the first
time they have. It is sort of this magic switch moment. Wow,
this really makes me feel better. And while everyone else
could stop, I wanted to stay and keep going.
S3 (00:44):
Today we're talking to Zoe Cook. Zoe has developed the
Pink Cloud app. It is an app designed for women
who are struggling with alcohol. Because we know that women
quit drinking differently. One of the great things about the app,
and one of the reasons we really wanted to talk
to her today is that she has been able to
develop a community inside that app, so that you don't
(01:05):
have to solve this problem alone. There is a community
of people available to you, and we're really excited to
talk to Zoe to get a little bit more information
of how you can get the app, what triggers you
need to see and how you can get help. Zoe,
I am so excited to talk to you today because
effectively what you have developed is the solution to a
(01:26):
problem we don't talk about very often. The issue of
first people going towards alcohol after they've had an injury,
but particularly women who really struggle with alcohol after an
injury is something that is not spoken about. It is
a huge burden for women and knowing that there is
(01:46):
a solution out there is an absolute joy for me
because we often get people referred and you don't know
what's going on. But at some point in time this
comes up and knowing that that's a place where we
can refer for help is just brilliant. So thank you
so much for coming onto the podcast today and talking
to us.
S2 (02:06):
Well, thank you for inviting me. I'm very happy to
be here.
S3 (02:08):
So I wondered if you could give us a little
bit of context to your story and then also tell
us how you came to thinking about this in the
first place.
S2 (02:19):
Mm. Yeah. Good question. I suppose, you know, I would
go right back to my high school days. You know,
things for me started to change when I hit high school.
I'd been very laid back and relaxed. Kid grew up
in Canberra, you know, just going with the flow. But
when I hit high school, that's when I started experiencing
extreme anxiety, especially around social situations. And when I was
(02:41):
in year 12. And like a lot of young people,
I had my first real experience with drinking. Um, and
I still remember my first drink was a guava flavoured cruiser.
And I remember a few minutes after having it, it
was like this magic switch flipped in my brain and
suddenly all those anxious thoughts just disappeared. And, you know,
(03:01):
the more I drank, the freer I felt. And it
was like I finally had permission to let loose and
enjoy being with people and not worry about what everyone
was thinking. And all through university, you know, the uni
life of every Thursday, Friday we'd go out drinking with friends.
And that's when I started to notice that, you know,
while everyone else could stop or switch to water or,
(03:23):
you know, want to go home, I wanted to stay
and keep going. You know, during that whole time I
was studying psychology, I was really drawn to it. And
I think partly because, you know, I was trying to
figure myself out anyway, you know, after I finished my degree,
I put myself into a role working for some psychologists. And,
you know, during this time, drinking was continuing, it became
more regular. And I noticed, you know, my habits, they
(03:45):
were getting more and more unhealthy. And then towards the
end of my 20s, I started to realize, this isn't great,
I need to get control of this. And around that
time is when I met my husband. You know, you
might think that would be motivation for me to quit drinking,
but my drinking got worse because dating was also something
that I found incredibly stressful. You know, the more you
like someone, often, the more anxious you feel about everything
going well. And, you know, the next few years I
(04:08):
found myself in a cycle of drinking heavily in the
evenings to cope with the stress. And yeah, then when
I was 34, I had been trying to quit drinking,
then for about six years, quite seriously. And that was
when I fell pregnant with my daughter. And actually not
drinking during pregnancy was really surprisingly easy. And I think
because it's easier to give up when someone else's life
(04:30):
depends on it rather than your own. And then when
I stopped breastfeeding, you know, I thought, I'll just I'll
ease back into drinking because obviously I don't have a problem,
I can stop. So just start again. And the reality
was quite different. And before I knew it, my drinking
was right back to where I was before I got pregnant,
if not worse. You know, I could see it was
(04:51):
taking a toll on me as a parent in the hours,
even when I wasn't drinking and I didn't want to
set that example for her. So that's really when I
decided to quit. Um, for good.
S3 (05:02):
It's there's one part of battling with something and knowing
you should, you know, I should do this. And when
we get there, I'll do this. So it's really brave
and very, very hard work to make a decision to
change and stick to it. Yes. And it cannot be
understated how hard that is. Yeah.
S2 (05:21):
I think the average is 18 years to from when
you first decide to when when people actually seek help, it's.
S3 (05:27):
A long time. And then taking what you've learnt and
then wanting to help everybody else with that.
S2 (05:33):
Yeah, I think it was, um, noticing the things that
helped me quit drinking. I mean, everyone's journey is different,
but sometimes hearing what worked for someone else, you know,
can give you some ideas. And, you know, for me,
one of the big things was educating myself about what
alcohol actually does to the body. And that was quite
terrifying for me.
S3 (05:52):
Did that happen before you made that decision. So because
I'm trying to understand, you've given it up, you've had
a baby Covid hit, things go crazy. And and the
stress of a child and everybody's social lives, those connections,
that community has really been disrupted. What did you do to, like,
ask for help in the first place?
S2 (06:13):
I try, yeah, I did try to do it on
my own for a really long time. You hear a
lot about like a dramatic rock bottom moment, but I
never had that. It was more like a gradual awakening,
you know? I just felt so bad about myself and
who I was becoming. And I think I first spoke
to my GP in mid 2022, and that was really
a turning point for me. And that's when I realized
(06:35):
that getting a community of support was a really important part,
telling people the whole thing about shame. And when you
speak to shame, you speak about something shameful and people
meet you with empathy. You know, shame can't continue. And
so I definitely found that was true. I was really
lucky to have a great GP and a great psychologist
who were very empathetic and supportive. But I also think
(06:58):
that wasn't the end of the story. It was a
whole lot of things. Like I said, you know, being
fed up, not wanting my daughter to see that sort
of behavior and the shame and and feeling unwell physically
as well.
S3 (07:12):
So what made you then move towards the Pink Cloud app?
Because the app fascinates me. It's an incredible tool. How
did you go from I need to help myself to
let's invent this thing that is going to help people.
S2 (07:27):
Yes. It was an idea that came to me sort
of slowly and then all at once. And I guess, honestly,
I developed it because I saw a real need for it,
both in my life and in the lives of other
women who were struggling with quitting alcohol. And, you know,
when I was looking for support, I noticed there weren't
many resources specifically for women that combined practical tools with
(07:51):
this supportive community of people to test and use them with,
and I really wanted to create something based on evidence.
You know, tracking progress for motivation and using cognitive behavioral
therapy techniques, building routines, targeted education, things that we know
work for treating alcohol overuse, but often because of the stigma,
(08:12):
particularly for women around talking about this issue, that they
aren't seeking help from GPS psychologists. And so this mobile app,
I felt, would be ideal because, you know, it fits
into your schedule, but you can use it anywhere. No
one sees you. You don't have to necessarily speak to
another person. The community is there if you want it.
It's free, non-judgmental. I think that was a really big thing.
(08:35):
I really want it to be a warm, inviting place.
A lot of the apps at the moment are, um,
quite clinical.
S3 (08:41):
So what inspired you to call the app Pink Cloud?
S2 (08:47):
I don't know if you've heard of the term the
pink cloud in recovery. Most people who've recovered from alcohol
will have heard of it, because it's the time when
everything feels like it's coming together beautifully. You know, there's
always this pink cloud period. Usually earlier on. It's a
bit of a euphoria, like, I've done it, I've quit.
It doesn't stay forever, but it is a lovely feeling.
(09:08):
And that and the fact that pink, you know, and
female is often intertwined.
S3 (09:13):
It's lovely. And can you explain how it works?
S2 (09:16):
Yes, yes. Um, so I mentioned the features of it earlier. Ideally,
users would log in each day and use the app
to track how they did that day. So whether they
did drink or didn't drink, what their mood was like,
if they had any triggers, if they had any cravings.
(09:37):
And it's a really quick short list that they fill
out to track that information. You can be as detailed
or as not as you like. And there's also a
section to make notes and journal, and that all feeds
into a tracking system that allows you to see over
time how you're doing behaviorally, whether you're drinking or not drinking,
and adds up benefits for you as well, for your body,
(09:59):
for your sleep, for all these health measures. But it
also allows you to track, you know, what your mood
is doing when your cravings are high, or what triggers
were around when your cravings were highest. And to get
that self-knowledge. And when you do select certain triggers or
mood difficulties, the app will direct you to resources specifically
(10:23):
about how you can manage that particular issue. So tailored education,
I think. Also, I like the idea of the community
there because that's something you can tap into at any time.
You know, obviously if you have a smartphone and you're
using it as an app, you usually have that with
you anywhere. So if you are having a really hard
time or a strong craving hits, you can jump in
there and ask for support.
S3 (10:44):
When you describe community, as far as the app goes,
what does that mean in the sense of community within
the app.
S2 (10:52):
Yes, it's a very new app. So the vision for
community is that there will be. It's like texting really, um,
within the app. But at the moment, because apps are
very expensive to build, we're using WhatsApp, which is a
really secure platform for this type of group chat. Um,
and so that's what the support will look like, whatever
people ask. Eventually, a community of people who are struggling
(11:15):
with the same issues, who can respond and provide support.
S3 (11:19):
I can see a whole merchandise thing coming out of this. Perhaps,
you know, the pink cloud caravan that can go from
community to community.
S2 (11:30):
I think that's.
S3 (11:31):
A fantastic with my social support network. Your Best tomorrow
begins today. It's going to throw that out there because,
as I said, it's so important that this is something
that is spoken about. And you're absolutely right. When we
name something we feel ashamed about, it loses its power
and we so often don't hear that. And yet it's
(11:52):
so important to really take that on board. And knowing
for someone that if this is an area that they
feel ashamed about because they can't get on top of it,
that there is somewhere to go to get support. If
someone was to use the Pink Cloud app and they
are transferred to the services, how do you as an
(12:15):
organization stay connected to them? Or once they've chosen to
go off to that service, is there a way to
check in on them, you know, to make sure that
they still feel part of that community? Because an app
is so easy to pick up and put down. I
have many, many weight loss apps on my phone that
just sit quietly beside me. But there is one that
(12:35):
actually texts me and reminds me and says, you haven't
checked in. Are you okay? So is that the kind
of functionality that this could eventually have?
S2 (12:44):
It would be amazing. I think that you're right. There
is a real limitation in apps that the person has
to be motivated to use it. And that is the
case with this app as well. But I see that
even if the app does refer to a service that
that person needed, that that's a win. Certainly investors don't
see it that way. They want to hang on to
as many people as possible, and I can see the
(13:05):
benefits that they get from using it are enough to
keep them, but it does send you alerts if you
allow it to. It will remind you to log each day,
and ideally it would become part of your routine to
do that.
S3 (13:17):
And what kind of other services would they be referred to?
S2 (13:20):
All of the the standard Australian mental health services, you know,
the crisis support services, but also some of the organizations
that provide more specialized support. So sober in the country,
you know, for people Rurally there is a couple of
services in Sydney that I've linked in with who will
(13:40):
take calls live to, to offer support. Yeah, places like,
you know, Beyondblue, lifeline, all of all of those. But yeah,
there are a few psychologists as well in Canberra who
I have on the app now, and I'm hoping to
keep building that. You will see the resources section is
something I can keep building. Yeah. So the more connections
I make and the more referrals I get, that would
be great.
S3 (14:00):
Well, I have not heard, and I am loathe to
say this, that I don't know everything, but I know
stand back. But I've actually not come across anything like this.
So it's really exciting because as I said before, like
this is something that I know we struggle with in
our community. There are people there that can really this
(14:23):
can add such great value to. So I'm very, very excited.
AA is always the thing that if you have an
alcohol problem, you're supposed to go to AA and you
go and meet in a church hall and you go
and have a cup of tea and you talk about things.
There is research out there that talks about I think AA,
as far as I understand, is probably more male dominated
(14:45):
as an organization.
S2 (14:47):
Yes, there is research that women do tend to prefer
the e-health options rather than meeting in person, so I'm
not sure if that's what it is about. AA the
whole idea that women tend to be the caretakers, and
so finding time to leave the house and attend a
meeting can be quite hard for women.
S3 (15:06):
Especially with young children.
S2 (15:08):
Impossible and unpredictable. You know, those meetings are at scheduled times,
and if you can't get to them, there's not another
chance for a while, you know? So something that you
can access at the time that works for you is good. Hello, Zoe.
I know a.
S4 (15:20):
Few people who may not really realize it themselves yet, um,
that they are overusing alcohol or even drugs for that matter,
to sort of self-medicate and take the edge off. Um,
is there an option to be able to utilize your
app from a drug perspective rather than just alcohol? Whilst.
S2 (15:40):
Yeah, whilst there is similarities, you know, addiction is addiction
the resources are really tailored to alcohol. So yeah, there's not.
But I know there is a girl in another woman
in Canberra. She's a pharmacist who she's developed an app
called Taper Mate, which is for people who use opioids
to help them taper off safely because generally with alcohol,
(16:02):
and this is not medical advice in any way. And
the app doesn't purport to provide any medical advice. But
in general, if you're having a higher amount of alcohol
and you quit, it can be quite dangerous if you
go cold turkey. But a lot of people who are
wanting to quit maybe aren't drinking to that level and
can stop completely. Whereas with opioids there is evidence that
(16:23):
it's better to taper off. I believe.
S3 (16:25):
Someone's listening. You're a mum, you've had a couple of drinks,
you are stressed, you are anxious, you can't get outside.
You're starting to feel really isolated. What would be three
things that a female could use as a checklist that
would tell them, yes, I think I need to find
the app and download it and give it a go.
S2 (16:46):
Oh great question. If they have any inkling that they
are worried that they're drinking too much, that is generally
a really good sign that they possibly are. If they
are hiding their drinking from other people, if they want
to stop at a certain number of drinks but struggle
to do so, that's, I think, a third.
S3 (17:08):
I think what I love about your list is that
you don't necessarily have to have a full blown problem, right?
One that actually impacts your ability to function. But if
you are a little bit worried, if you are thinking
that you might need a drink because you've got to
cope with whatever event is about to happen, then maybe
(17:30):
this is the right app to download and just check
as well, and then you might not need it every day.
But I guess it was also a really lovely tool
to use before it becomes a problem. And then to
have that opportunity to have a community of support, whether
it is a big problem or a little problem. But
if it's something that you question, then it would be
time to download the app and just, you know, use
(17:52):
it as that tool, use it to build routine, use
it to get feedback. Use it to set up better
healthy habits. I mean, all of those things can really
benefit people anyway.
S2 (18:01):
Yes, absolutely. One of the differences between men and women,
women face different emotional challenges when it comes to alcohol
use and recovery as well. And women drink more to
cope with stress and anxiety and trauma. And their drinking
is kind of entwined with their roles. And as a result,
in recovery, they often benefit from like a more holistic
approach that addresses not just the physical aspect of quitting,
(18:24):
but the emotional and psychological dimensions, you know, so providing
support that helps them manage stress or deal with traumas
or navigate complex emotions. And like you were saying, Caroline,
even if you don't necessarily feel that alcohol is your
major problem, there are other lifestyle supports in the app
that can help you.
S5 (18:43):
Hi. Um, Zoe, how are you today?
S2 (18:46):
I'm well. How are.
S5 (18:47):
You? I do have a friend. She's a woman. And
after injury, um, she was, like, very dependent on alcohol,
especially on beer. So every night, she goes, like, she
feels like she wanted to drink a bottle or a
couple of bottles, uh, bottle of beers every night to
make her sleep. So it's every day. So given the
numbers of intakes, like, uh, 1 to 2 bottles per day, uh,
(19:09):
is it considered like an alcoholism already?
S2 (19:13):
Yeah, that's a really good question. And not uncommon for
people to want to use alcohol to help get off
to sleep. And interestingly, it actually really disturbs your sleep.
Science tells us so my definition of alcoholism that I've
sort of taken from a man called Gabor Mate, who's
a psychiatrist from Canada, he talks about addiction as being
(19:36):
something that you do that makes you feel less of
whatever pain you're feeling that you want to stop doing
because it has some negative side effects but that you
can't stop doing. And so I think I would recommend
that person kind of think about that. Is it something
that they want to stop doing but can't? And if so,
(19:57):
then they might want to look at getting some support
to stop.
S3 (20:00):
And maybe the other part is could they stop. Mhm.
Because I many years ago had a lecturer and we
were talking about addictions. And the room full of these
young very preppy, you know, know it alls in our
mind we often think about addiction as severe alcohol or
severe drug use. And he said who have you drink coffee.
(20:20):
Who of you can stop drinking coffee? Therefore, if you
can't stop drinking coffee, do not judge anybody who has
an addiction because that is an addiction. So that idea
of addiction is can you stop? Doesn't even necessarily always
mean it's going to impact your day. But let's its
face it, for those who are coffee addicts, if you
(20:42):
can't not have a coffee and are unable to function,
then that is just as serious. We don't have an
app for that. No, but unfortunately.
S2 (20:51):
And this is something that tends to ramp up when
you do quit drinking. A lot of people turn to
coffee and other vices.
S3 (20:59):
Yes, exercise anything. Anything is, you know, food. We can
become addicted to a lot of things. So if you
were to give any piece of advice as to why
they should consider something like downloading the Pink Cloud app,
what would that be?
S2 (21:17):
It leads on very nicely from what we've just been
talking about. I think if alcohol is something that you
do do to make yourself feel in any way less
pain or less discomfort, and you know that it is
harmfully impacting your life, but you aren't able to stop
or you're struggling to cut back, then I think it
is worth downloading the app and having a try.
S3 (21:40):
I think that's a lovely message to leave this on.
This is something that they can do and it will
inspire someone else. So we thank you for today. You
have invented something that is so needed, and I know
that we'll be referring people to this app all the time.
S2 (21:55):
Amazing.
S3 (21:56):
Thank you. Get ready for the My social support network
Pink Cloud app community about to arise.
S2 (22:02):
I can't wait for the Van Roadshow 2025.
S3 (22:07):
We want to thank Zoe for coming onto the podcast today.
It's been so inspiring to hear about what she has done,
turning her story into something that can really help other people.
We know that women quit drinking differently, and it's never
too early to just check if you need some help.
We're also really excited about getting that caravan up and
(22:28):
running and being able to be out there in the community,
helping people with any of these kinds of barriers, because
the whole point of my social support network is to
build a community, and we're doing that with you.
S1 (22:41):
If you feel the Pink Cloud app is applicable to
you or someone you know. Go to WW Dot Pink
Cloud app.com. That's Pink Cloud app.com where you will find
links to both the Android and Apple versions. During the interview,
Zoe mentioned a screening tool and this alcohol self-test can
be found at order screen.org. If you're finding yourself going
(23:05):
through a tough time at the moment or this episode
raised some issues you would like to speak to someone about,
then reach out to lifeline on 13 1114. Beyond Blue
on 1300 224 636 or the 24 hour Mental Health Assistance line
on one 800 01511. And of course, if it's an
(23:28):
emergency and you require urgent support, please reach out to
the ambulance or police service on 000. Thank you so
much for joining us and we'll see you next time.
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