Breathing Life Back into Our Lands with Anthony James

Ever wondered why mainstream agriculture seems so destructive? Picture a grandfather and his grandson pondering the question of why growing crops often involves killing. This profound moment sets the stage for a transformative conversation with Anthony James, the host of the Regeneration podcast, and a fifth-generation Western Australian. Together, we explore how regenerative agriculture is breathing life back into our lands, bringing forth a resurgence in biodiversity and natural water sources. Anthony shares compelling stories of farmers who have radically altered their methods, resulting in healthier ecosystems and communities.

Warm thanks to:
Sponsor: Females Over Forty-five Fitness in Victoria Park
Sound Engineering: Damon Sutton
Music: William A Spence
... and all our generous and inspiring guests around the warm table this season!

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My Warm Table, translated into Italian is Tavola Calda. These were the words my Papa used to describe a table of good friends, good food and good conversation. I always aim to create a tavola calda in my life and I hope this podcast encourages you to do so too!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
And his grandson one day, when they were just driving
around the district saidGrandpa, why do we have to kill
stuff to grow stuff?
And that was a profound momentfor him and many others who
since heard it, because it waslike why do we?
The idea is that you've got tomake a clean field right and
spray every kill it all, whichof course means you're killing
what we're learning more aboutthe microbiome and the

(00:25):
mycorrhizal network underneaththeir soil and or in the soil
and all this sort of stuff.
So essentially it's gettingaway from that and saying let's
create life across the board andthen make our agriculture fit
that, and then what many peopleare finding is that that's

(00:47):
making their agriculture better.
They're being uplifted byspecies returning en masse,
trees planting themselves,rivers running again and clear
so you can drink out of them,let alone the stock, and that's
big.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
Thanks for joining me , sonia Nolan, around the warm
table, or the tavola calda as myItalian papa used to call a
welcoming table of acceptance,positivity and curiosity.
My Warm Table podcast aims tocreate that and more, as we
amplify stories of WesternAustralians, making our
communities better.
My Warm Table, season 3, isproud to be sponsored by Females

(01:27):
Over 45 Fitness, with a studioin Victoria Park and also online
all over Australia.
So now please take a seat andjoin us for Season 3 as we
explore stories of hope.
Anthony James is my guest aroundthe warm table today.
He describes himself as afifth-generation Western

(01:50):
Australian man living on ancientlands amongst the oldest
continuous cultures on earth.
In fact, his work celebratesand strives to learn from
Indigenous practices and deepunderstanding of the land.
He is the creator and host ofthe Regeneration podcast, a
weekly podcast which shares thestories of farmers across

(02:10):
Australia challengingtraditional farming techniques
in favour of regenerativeagriculture.
Anthony is a Prime MinisterialAward winner for service to the
international community.
He is a sought-after MC,facilitator and educator, a
widely published writer,honorary research fellow at the
University of Western Australiaand a Warm Data Lab host

(02:34):
certified by the InternationalBateson Institute, and we'll
find out about what thatactually means a bit later on.
I know I'm going to learn a lotfrom Anthony today, just as I
did several months ago when wefirst crossed paths and I
immediately fell into deepconversation with him.
I knew that I wanted to knowmore about what Anthony does and

(02:54):
to amplify the amazing workhe's doing, to educate and
inspire us to rethink thesystems surrounding us which are
driving our overconsumption ofland, resources and life.
Welcome to the warm table,anthony.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
Oh, right back at you , Sonia.
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
It's absolutely a pleasure and, like I said, you
know, when we first met a fewmonths ago, from my point of
view, we just had this very deepinstant conversation and
connection about all things thatare just real in the world and
I just thought what an authentichuman.
So I had to have you around thewarm table.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
No, I couldn't be happy to be around the warm
table.
In fact, I think what you'redoing with this and your theme
for this season couldn't be moretimely.
So it's kudos to you.
And yeah, I felt the same wayon meeting.
So, yeah, again, couldn't behappier to be with you.
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 3 (03:46):
Pleasure pleasure.
So I want to start with a quotefrom one of your mentors,
gregory Bateson, from theInternational Bateson Institute,
which we're going to talk abouta little bit more.
But he said the major problemsin the world are the result of
the difference between hownature works and the way people
think.
I found that really profound asI was reading that, and I

(04:06):
really am curious to understandwhat you think of that quote and
what that inspires for you.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
It's a beauty, isn't it?
And there's so many ways wecould spin off from that.
It certainly talks about ourways of knowing and the
limitations of the reduction ofscientific method, but also the
brilliance of it.
Right, but that it's only everpartial.
But I want to come at this fromanother perspective, and it

(04:32):
relates to hope, sort of yourtheme for this season.
That, if you asked me what Ifeel like, is the essence of
hope.
In fact, the essence of life.
It is that life's impulse, itsevolutionary impulse, is
inherently regenerative.
So the way nature works is forlife and life enhancing, and

(05:00):
always looking to do that, tosurvive in the first instance,
and then to regenerate andprosper.
This is universal, this is theway it works, and in that sense,
if we are not regenerative as aculture or even in our own
lives, that falls into thatdichotomy that Gregory is trying

(05:22):
to articulate.
We've got stuck or habituatedin ways of thinking and acting
that don't play by the flow ofnature's inherently regenerative
impulse.
But that says, if the rules ofthe game are oriented towards
life and regeneration, then allwe have to do, you know, all we

(05:44):
have to do All we have to do.
You know all we have to do, Allwe have to do, yes, In fact
there's a beautiful quote fromLundig is learn how to fit in,
yeah, and it takes the pressureoff then, because it's not like
we have to fix anything, we'vejust got to get with the program
.
Go with the flow, go with theflow.

Speaker 3 (06:01):
Literally right Almost literally yeah, yeah, go
with the flow, go with the flow.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
Literally right, always literally yeah yeah, and
it is true to say that when I'veseen it around the country, as
you say, and spoken with peoplearound the world that you do see
how much the wind is at ourbacks in that way that when we
take the idea of control out ofit and get bigger picture, it is

(06:27):
extraordinary.
You could all often and somepeople have put the word magic
on it Indigenous andnon-Indigenous because of what.
You're surprised by that.
What nature produces is farbeyond what you planned and
often could even have imagined,and doesn't that say something?

(06:50):
I mean, it's almost like ourwildest dreams of what could be
in the positive sense areprobably undersold, in all
probability, if we are learninghow to fit in and play by the
rules.

Speaker 3 (07:10):
That's such a hopeful message, isn't it?
That's huge.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
It's huge.
It's huge because it takes thepressure off.
It means you don't have to fixanything, you don't have to
become anything different,you're inherently of this nature
.
And then you start to see thedichotomy Gregory's referring to
right, because certainly in thechurch I was brought up in,
you're inherently a sinner.
I'm talking about Catholicismand I'm not dissing it, though

(07:35):
right, really, for anyone whofinds meaning in that, that's
great.
Indeed, a lot of the teachingsin the church and churches are
all about this in essence.
And then the institutionalisingruns aground in some ways, and
sometimes and that's where thecontrol comes in right.

Speaker 3 (07:57):
The minute we institutionalise something or we
allise, you put eyes at the endof something.
You know you're really tryingto control it or trying to build
a framework that becomes prettyrigid or can do.
Or can do.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
It doesn't have to If you don't have the systems to,
but this applies across theboard, right yeah?
yeah, this is for even us asindividuals, you could use those
very same words and apply it toand this has certainly been my
practice for a couple of decades, since I was fortunate enough
to meet the bloke who introducedme to that bloke and Gregory,
and my good fortune in life tohave been visited with this sort

(08:34):
of a gift of a differentperspective.
But yeah, having been broughtup in that church, you were
certainly inherently a sinner.
You talked about don't beingrigid.
I was kicked out of home at 15for being blasphemous.
Oh, truly.
Dad and I got along.
In the end we came around.
So I feel like I can say thatall the more now that he has

(08:54):
passed, but that doesn't slighthim.
I don't think he's got his own.
In context, that made sense ofthat which I've been able to
discover since and understandmore about.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
And isn't that a gift ?
As we age and we get older andwe perhaps are at an age of our
parents, were at a time whenthey said something or made a
choice that we didn't understand.
Our younger selves didn'tunderstand it, but I'm certainly
finding myself very much in theshoes of my family, my parents
now, just sort of thinking oh, Iactually understand them so

(09:28):
much more deeply than I did as ayoung person 100% and, if
anything, it makes me feelcompassion for what made sense
of dad's actions in that case,for example.
Definitely very hard.

Speaker 1 (09:42):
I mean boarding school, from the age of four,
you know, during the war, andwith a brutal modality in that
setting which again we'velearned too much about since.
But all that, and in a sensethen you know, I think in my own
life, if only for some guidancein those times.

(10:05):
I think for me, sure, but wow,if only for some guidance for
him.
But then can more of us breakthose circuits and be there for
each other in these ways now?

Speaker 3 (10:21):
Which is compassionate and empathic.

Speaker 1 (10:23):
It's the warm table.

Speaker 3 (10:24):
It is the warm table.
It is the warm table.
It is.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Look, that's great.
I can just feel it in my bones,anthony, we're going to go down
all sorts of fabulous rabbitwarrens with our conversation
today, which is just so perfect,so perfect.
But I need to just sort ofunpick.
What is a warm data lab hostcertified by the International
Bateson Institute?
I don't even know if I've saidthat correctly.

(10:45):
So what is a warm data lab hostcertified by the International
Bateson Institute?
I don't even know if I've saidthat correctly.
So what is?

Speaker 1 (10:47):
that what are?

Speaker 3 (10:48):
you Thanks for bringing it up.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
So it was obviously created after Gregory, who
became known in many circles asthe father of general systems
theory.
And what gets talked aboutincreasingly thankfully because
it wasn't 20 years ago, but nowit is systems theory, right, and
what gets talked aboutincreasingly thankfully because
it wasn't 20 years ago, but nowit is systems thinking.
I hesitate, though, because,while it's talked about more,

(11:14):
like most things, hey, until wereally fill it with the
substance and really grasp thatwe're using the language, but
it's not being filled with thedepth from where it came.
Right.
So we're still on that journey.
I'm still on that journey.
So that is to say that a lot ofthe talk about systems thinking

(11:35):
these days would not touch whatGregory yeah, what Gregory was
meaning.
So my hope is that we will, asa culture certainly, and me and
others individually, keep onthat task of learning how to
think in the sorts of ways thatare being articulated by Gregory
in that quote.

Speaker 3 (11:54):
It's really hard that whole concept of systems
thinking.
This is a conversation I've hadwith a lot of my colleagues and
friends right Sort of the ideaof being a systems thinker.
You know, colleagues, andfriends right.
Sort of the idea of being asystems thinker, you know,
because often we come from avery defined mode of operating

(12:15):
and therefore we make all of ourassessments and decisions
through that paradigm.
But to actually be a systemsthinker you've really got to.
I mean I've heard people talkabout you've got to get on the.
You've really got to.
I mean I've heard people talkabout you've got to get on the
balcony and you've got to lookover everything.
But I think you need to gethigher than the balcony.
In fact, you've really got tojust see how every single factor
operates within that dynamic.

(12:38):
And it's really hard to havethat brain that actually allows
you to see that.
And when, sometimes,organisations operate in silos,
you hear that a lot and peopleare not talking, collaborating
or, as we were saying earlier,as we were making our cup of tea
.
People aren't curious enough,they're not asking the questions

(13:01):
or even wanting to open updiscussions, which then allow
them to maybe understand anothertiny factor of the system a
little bit better.

Speaker 1 (13:09):
Well, that's what came out of your particular
experience with someorganizations, right, and that
is where we end up thinkingdifferently to how nature works.

Speaker 2 (13:19):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
But if you keep open to the way nature works, which
you know, this comes back to theway you described systems
thinking as being to get acrosseverything.
I think it's more.
Don't worry about gettingacross everything because you
can't.
You're in it, so sure, get onthe balcony, but then the

(13:43):
theatre's around the balcony.
Sure, you want to get on theroof balcony, but then the
theatre's around the balcony.
Sure, you want to get on theroof.
Well then, the city's aroundthe roof.
So where does it end?
And this comes back to.
You said warm data.
So Gregory's daughter, noraBateson, who's just released an
amazing book, by the wayhopefully she'll be on my
podcast again soon.
She was the most popularepisode for years when she was
on the first time.
It's called Combining, and soshe created this thing Warm Data

(14:08):
as a sort of a distinction fromBig Data.
Okay, yes.
This was putting warm blood, thewarm table, back in data, back
in information exchange.

Speaker 3 (14:22):
Is it more?

Speaker 1 (14:22):
qualitative.
It's even more than that.
Yeah, it's an interweaving.
So she would go so far as tosay you know, we can talk in
systems terms like nature's sointerconnected.
She would say no, it's not.
It's more than that, becauseinterconnection still implies

(14:44):
parts you can pull apart and putback, you can engineer.

Speaker 3 (14:46):
Right, you can be like a Meccano set.

Speaker 1 (14:47):
Exactly Right.
So you're back to themechanistic, reductionist
worldview?
Yes, even though you thinkyou're being holistic.

Speaker 2 (14:53):
I mean, this is a hint of how it can persist when
you come out of this culture?

Speaker 1 (14:56):
Yeah, but that's cool because, again, we're not
dis-mechanistic thinking.
It created amazing things.
So what if we harness the bestof that but be able to transcend
it, see it in context, marry itwith the way nature works and
then you know, see what we cando.
So Nora's got this exercise inWarm Data Labs where you would

(15:19):
explore a given theme from arange of different perspectives.
Given theme from a range ofdifferent perspectives.
So you might look at food, andthen there'll be a group that's
approaching it through a familylens, there'll be a group that's
approaching it through anagriculture lens, there'll be a
group from an economics lens, alegal lens, I mean, you could go

(15:39):
on, but you pick some and thereare a bunch of these hosts,
like me not that I'm doing it,but others are in Perth and this
is how the workshop runs.
So you really get to come tosee all sorts of different
perspectives.
Ingredients, if you will, forthe metaphor Nora prefers to use

(16:00):
to describe nature, and that isas a soup.
Uh-huh, because try to take thepepper out, yeah, and you can't
you can't.
You can't.
So as soon as you do it's dead,mm-hmm.
And not to say, don't do that,so science might do that, we
might do that in our own lives.
One problem for now, thanks.
Or you know, I've got a podcastto get out, like whatever.

(16:25):
That's okay to have the micro,but realise you're in the micro
and if things start to go wrongor feel bad or you come up
against dead ends, then go okay,this isn't reality.
Let me get on the balcony andmaybe in the roof and maybe I'll
go further.

(16:45):
Let me pan out or shiftcontexts even, and see what it
looks like from there and put adifferent picture together.

Speaker 3 (16:54):
Oh, that's so fascinating.

Speaker 1 (16:56):
It is hey.

Speaker 3 (16:57):
Yeah, so have you done?
Or you said you're not hostingat the moment any of these sort
of warm data experiences, buthave you done some in the past?

Speaker 1 (17:06):
I did some when we were training and then I've run
you know sort of minidiscussions in groups with this
in mind, but for me, then, in away it was a shame that my path

(17:28):
has just led elsewhere.

Speaker 3 (17:29):
But I guess you're using some of the tools and the
context that you learn.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
Exactly.
That's the thing.

Speaker 3 (17:36):
That's the beauty of things you don't have to be a
purist practitioner in something.
But that's what I find excitingabout a non-linear career is
that you take so many ideas andtools and then you end up with
this pretty amazing suite ofexperiences and knowledge that

(17:56):
you can then layer intosomething else 100% If we're
going to talk about connectingwith each other in new ways.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
And you, you know you were talking about those
organisations not being curiousenough because they were after
solutions to particular things.
And you were saying, well, I'mnot going to bring the solutions
to the tail, but I know aprocess or two that could help
us arrive at some.
And that was like, oh, we'reafter solutions, see you later
type thing.
But what if the reason wehaven't got solutions as an

(18:26):
organisation is because theprocesses we're running are
leading the same sorts of waysof thinking that are coming at
Cropper yeah, with substance andgenuinely find our ways out of

(18:47):
some of these predicaments, thenthis is what it means, I think,
and in that sense you'reabsolutely right.
Whatever I learned there andwith you today and everywhere
else, can play a part in thatpicture.
Constant learning, in a way.
That's how I feel about thepodcast.
I think you do too about yours.
It's essentially learning andsharing.

(19:11):
That's almost as straightforwardas it is, and in that sense
it's not just about farming inmy case either.
Right, it became a cornerstoneof it because, for a number of
reasons really, because we setout around the country.
That's where it started settingout around the country to get
to know Australia for the firsttime.

(19:32):
Really, I'd travelled it, but Ihadn't travelled it through its
people, much less the peoplewho were managing our national
estate, and that's the majorityof the Australian estate is
actually in agriculture.
So I've been visiting theseplaces to get to know about that
and I've come to know them, andsome of them are now my best
friends, which is hard tobelieve.
It's amazing how the gifts.

(19:54):
You know it just keeps givingyou shift context and yeah,
life's regenerative impulse itkeeps giving and of course our
lives have changed a bit since,but it doesn't end there.
So you know, for example, thisweek I've got a woman on who's
in Canberra working on what wetalked about when we met,
deliberative processes.

(20:15):
So she's a professor indeliberative democracy out of
Uni of Canberra, unia Canberra,and she's one of the key people
involved in researching andcommunicating about citizens'
assemblies and all these sortsof things, the things that
increasingly governments local,national and now even global are

(20:36):
instituting to get us throughour impasses.
Because by their nature, a bitlike a jury, they draw people
together in that sort of randomfashion but representative
fashion of society, and thenyou're charged with a slow,
deliberative process.
And Mexico, where this was trueand the guest was Jeff Goebel I

(21:09):
had on the podcast at the endof last year and after only
three days, in that instance itcame out with peace and
transformation and resolutionthat they've gone on with.
So and that's to say, you knowit doesn't always do that, but
it mostly does, and what the howis that?

Speaker 3 (21:31):
Well, this is the power of coming in with an open
mind and an open heart, isn't it?
And actually really wanting tounderstand the other person's
point of view.

Speaker 1 (21:41):
And a process.
And a process, yes, with deftfacilitation, so it still
doesn't fall off trees.
But this is some of the stuffthat is being done is working.
We could do more.
So on the podcast, I speak topeople like that too right,
because ultimately it's how dowe thread economic

(22:03):
transformation, culturaltransformation, political
transformation in that too right, because ultimately it's how do
we thread economictransformation, cultural
transformation, politicaltransformation in that sense.
But also, we might say, throughthe independence movement which
we talked about too obviously.
And, yes, agriculturaltransformation, because if we
don't have functioning country,we've got nothing, and if we
don't have connection with FirstNations in that respect, we've
got nothing.
But then within that, themajority of the national state

(22:26):
and global for that matter is inagriculture.
So that's obviously prettyfundamental and important as a
baseline.
But then how do the rest of oursystems connect with that and
make a whole that works asnature works?

Speaker 3 (22:41):
to come back to our anchor point, yeah, there's so
many questions in that aren'tthere.
There are there's so manyquestions in that aren't there.
There are there's so manyquestions in that.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
But if your theme is hope, yes, I mean far out, yeah,
and this is relevant, right,because I was thinking about
this coming in, I probably atthe I don't know when it was,
maybe maybe even when we met, Iwas thinking I guess I'd got in
a habit of thinking I don't wantto be Pollyanna-ish about this

(23:09):
stuff.
You know Poor, yeah, keep intouch with the dark side, and I
was.
You know you don't have to gofar.
The default is degenerative.

Speaker 3 (23:19):
It's very easy to become cynical right when you
can look around and you can seeexamples.
It's very easy to sort ofspiral into that space.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
And related places of like overwhelm or anxiety or
yeah, which is just other formsof isolation too.
Right, it's not connecting.
But yeah, I was checking myselfon this front and then I found
myself at a point early thisyear not just with the stories I

(23:51):
was covering, but others I'mlike, no, actually, no, it is
absolutely hands down on fireright now.
Perhaps not the right metaphor,not the right metaphor, not the
right metaphor.
Well, yeah, I'll go on with themycelial network metaphor.
That's always a good one tofall back on.
There's so much to say aboutthe mycelial network.
When we're talking about speed,scale of change or quite all

(24:13):
that sort of thing, this tendsto be a very apt metaphor.
So the way fungal networks workessentially, and the more we
learn about that, the more thismetaphor holds.
And the more we learn aboutthat, the more this metaphor
holds.
So that network is absolutelypumping and spreading, but of
course it's on the ground, soit's not obvious.
The mainstream media is notpicking it up, but they still

(24:35):
don't even understand.
When they do, something doeshappen, like the independents
coming to parliament.
Media still, by and large, doesnot understand what's happening
.
They cannot see more of itcoming down the line, even
though it's just happened againin Tasmania.

Speaker 3 (24:47):
It's a whole other conversation.

Speaker 1 (24:49):
A whole other conversation.

Speaker 3 (24:49):
That I will probably spiral into cynicism on right.

Speaker 1 (24:52):
Well, let's okay.
Good, this is our case, right?
This is our case study.
You could go there, Yep, butlet's take that example.
It's happening anyway.
So what is driving that?
What is connecting these thingsup?
It's some other channel, it'sanother domain in systems talk,

(25:14):
you know.
That's why it was generalsystems theory.
You can shift domain and itwill make sense across the board
.
And that's where you know youcan find ways through particular
issues when you can pan back,get general, find principles of
nature, quote unquote that areapplying as a whole, and jump on

(25:35):
that wagon.
And so, yeah, I actuallychecked myself this year in the
other ways.
Actually, you're looking toohard for the dark.
It's like I started to try andfind holes in it, and you know
it's important to be balanced.
We don't hide from the shadowin the podcast either, but it is
coming up everywhere and it'sway beyond in keeping with our

(25:57):
topic people's control.
Yeah.
It's way beyond organising it,planning it and even in many
cases, like I said before,imagining it, it is coming up
everywhere.
So I'm in this position nowwhere I just sort of keep humble
with it, play your role.
But I'm in no doubt and itdoesn't say which way it's going

(26:20):
to pan out, but I'm in no doubt, there is major transformation
afoot, potentially of a verypositive nature.
But what I will say is it'stime for the cavalry to arrive.
This needs all of us now, or atleast bloody well most, to just

(26:40):
even try.
Well, get curious, trysomething new, and I'm talking
about myself, I'm talking abouteveryone.
Try something else now.
Let's just take a very concreteexample of what started the
independence movement.
So what predated Cathy McGowanrunning in Indi and winning, and
then winning again, and HelenHaynes winning, and then seven

(27:00):
other women winning.
What predated that?
Do you know?
What instigated the wholeshebang?
Seven?

Speaker 3 (27:04):
other women winning and what predated that.
Do you know what instigated thewhole shebang?
What I do know about CathyMcGowan is that she sat around
and had a lot of warm tableconversations around people's
kitchens.

Speaker 1 (27:10):
Exactly, yep, there's a lot of that.
And then what triggered thatwas one phone call, one Saturday
night, from a bunch of whatthey called the Indi expats
young kids, her nephew, I thinkit was with friends saying we
still believe in our home but wecan't be there because there's

(27:31):
no opportunities or whatever.
What if something was to changepolitically?
And she said, yeah, what ifI'll help you?

Speaker 3 (27:41):
Such a powerful question what if?
Isn't it?
It is.
You know, people can diss thatquestion and say, well, that's
not reality and you just need towork with what you've got.
But I just think that the whatif?
Question is a really powerfulone.

Speaker 1 (27:54):
We talk about the processes.
With a process, it's amazingwhat can happen.
Yeah, jeff Goebel's processthat led to that situation in
New Mexico that's, you can hearabout it in his episode, of
course.
What if?
Is a central part of that,Because they get to a point
where everybody's saying, ohyeah, the good stuff, that'd be

(28:15):
good, but it's impossible.
And so the framing he broughtnext was okay, yeah, given it's
impossible.
If it wasn't, what would you do?

Speaker 3 (28:24):
Yeah, yeah and that opened the whole.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
Imagine, get curious and what would you do?
Yeah, and I guess if I justfollow that thread through a
step further, I maybe come backfirst to say remember, it was
just a phone call first.
Right, so you know we can getthinking big and systemic and
data, but it was just one phonecall that said what if, and, and
the rest is history in 10 shortyears, let alone what might

(28:49):
come in 10 more, and I think itis, if more of us jump in.
But anyway, we could comefurther out, if you like, to
where you were describingsystems thinking at the outset,
and the other thing I wanted tosay about that is that's
actually where systems thinkingcan get lost, because you get so
abstract, you're so detachedfrom community and land country

(29:14):
that you're just in intellectualfantasy land and because you're
trying to make sense of it.

Speaker 3 (29:21):
because you're trying to make sense of something that
just is Exactly 100%.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
Yeah, yeah, and that can be really helpful, but my
old mentor used to talk aboutbeing a bit of a dance you try
and be always connecting back toground and place, but not
staying there either.
Right, so connecting them both,because if you were just in the
micro, then yeah on, yeah on,you go Groundhog Day.

(29:45):
But if you're in the macro andthe micro, which again is,
ancient cultures all over theworld made practice of this sky,
country, land, country, etcetera, and it was all connected
through performance and story.
You start to see the threadsthen, with even the value of
doing podcasts like this.

Speaker 3 (30:02):
I think and telling stories and connecting.
Yeah, so true.

Speaker 1 (30:06):
But to not stay in the abstract, not stay in the
ground but not stay in theabstract to marry them up or
dance between them or howeveryou like to think about it.
But I think that's reallyimportant and you know, the
independence movement again camefrom that people getting
involved in ways they'd neverbeen involved.
People standing to be MPsThey'd never dreamed of doing it

(30:27):
yes, and people actually doingvery mundane things like putting
signs up in the streets andwhatever.
Same thing with the farmers.
They're just deciding to do it.
And my guest out this week is ayoung farmer, a millennial,
who'd left, like most of them do, and ended up back by accident
and then by accident quote,quote, unquote ended up staying.

(30:47):
He wrote a book about it,called my Father and Other
Animals, which won the PrimeMinister's Literary Award last
year.
It's extraordinary, some of thestuff that's going on, but
again connecting back to ground.

Speaker 3 (31:03):
So tell me about the I mean, the Regeneration podcast
is all about speaking with, asyou've said, you know people on
the land and that they're doingthings that are different, and
so they're.
You know, as I said earlier,they're sort of challenging
traditional farming, and when Isay traditional farming, I'm
thinking of the last couple ofhundred years, when we get
industrial farming.

Speaker 1 (31:24):
Yeah, so I was reading of the last couple of
hundred years when we get toindustrial farming.

Speaker 3 (31:27):
So I was reading something along the lines of
that.
One of the worst things we everdid was plough our field.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
Yeah, which, of course, was 10,000 years ago.

Speaker 3 (31:33):
It was the origins of agriculture, which was a long
time ago, right, or?

Speaker 1 (31:36):
origins of Western agriculture.
I should say that's right,exactly, yeah, where there's so
many caveats aren't there.

Speaker 3 (31:47):
We need to be really clear.
But the regenerative farmerswhat are they doing?
That is challenging theindustrialised farming
techniques?
I mean, there's probably athousand things they're doing
but in essence, what is it thatthey're doing?

Speaker 1 (31:55):
It's where we started .
It's getting in touch withlife's regenerative impulse.
They are essentially anotherway to put it would be.
Paul Hawken in his bookRegeneration said it's putting
life at the centre of every actand decision, which again sounds
sort of mundane.
But if you really think aboutdoing that, it's like what if we

(32:16):
did that with our economy?
And this is some of thetransformation going on there
too, right?
So that's essentially whatthey're doing there too, right?
So that's essentially whatthey're doing.
So another way to say it mightbe the grandson of the guy who's
become known as a bit of thegodfather of regenerative
agriculture, charles massey ohyes, I was watching his ted talk
the other day fascinating he's.
On australian story too, by theway.

Speaker 3 (32:37):
I did see that too.

Speaker 1 (32:38):
I did see that too, yeah fascinating bloke wrote
call of the reed warbler, whichhas become legendary just in the
last five years, telling thebiggest story about this stuff.
And his grandson one day, whenthey were just driving around
the district, said Grandpa, whydo we have to kill stuff to grow
stuff?
And that was a profound momentfor him and many others who

(32:58):
since heard it, because it waslike why do we?
The idea is that you've got tomake a clean field right and
spray every kill it all, whichof course means you're killing
what we're learning more about,the microbiome and the
mycorrhizal network underneaththe soil or in the soil and all
this sort of stuff.
So essentially, it's gettingaway from that and saying let's

(33:22):
create life across the board andthen make our agriculture fit
that.
And then what many people arefinding is that that's making
their agriculture better becausethey're no longer having to
stump up the enormous and risingcosts of inputs, they're not
living in a misery of chemicalpoisoning and so forth, which is

(33:43):
rampant, by the way.
My God, the things we take asnormal these days that's one of
them they're being uplifted byspecies returning en masse,
trees planting themselves.
Yeah, rivers running again.
Rivers running again and clearso you can drink out of them,
let alone the stock, and that'sbig right, because our biggest

(34:05):
river system again the things wenormalize, it's, it's dying on
the vine and and there's there'sa thing called a motor neuron
disease.
Alley, really I heard you.

Speaker 3 (34:14):
I heard that podcast about that.
That was really quitefrightening, wasn't it I?

Speaker 1 (34:18):
feel like screaming this from the rooftops, not that
I want to scare peoplenecessarily but just recap on
that for people who haven'tlistened to that.
So this is akin to other areasin the world, like Cancer Alley,
sadly named at the bottom ofthe Mississippi in the States,
because all the runoff comes in,the chemical runoff from the
field, which, by the way, ismost of the chemical that's

(34:38):
applied comes off and into thewater, and that's what's been
causing havoc with the BarrierReef here in Australia too.
So all these patterns fromindustrial ag in the Darling, in
the Barker River, it's got soconcentrated now that we're
starting to see the instance ofmotor neuron disease spike to

(35:01):
currently seven times thenational average.
And there's a couple of doctorsand professors who are looking
at the causes.
Most people, bless them, seemto be scrambling to how do we
treat it, you know, which isimportant too, but we've got to
be getting at the causes ofthese things if we can, and
particularly when we're causingthe causes and so could uncause

(35:24):
them.
Yes, yes, yeah.
And so these are some of thediabolical levels of
consequences we will continue tosee until more of us can back
in the systems that are there,that have been pioneered for
decades, that of coursepre-existed in many respects on
this continent, pre-colonialtimes too, to bring all these

(35:48):
together and back them in inevery way we possibly can.
You know the food we buy, thewater policies that our MPs set.
In every way we possibly can,the stories we tell.
It's so important right nowbecause, while I feel incredibly
hopeful, um, it's so importantright now because, while I feel
incredibly hopeful, I also cansee the possibility of things

(36:10):
going backwards.
No-transcript Will they persistif we don't have more come in
next time?

(36:31):
Yeah, I can see it going theother way, because it's a pretty
lonely voice, sometimes Exactly, it's still marginal, even
though it's coming up everywhere.

Speaker 3 (36:41):
It needs tending and it needs backing everywhere it
needs tending and it needsbacking.
So yeah, because it's reallysaying a lot about what we've
come to know as comfortable andit's really difficult to try and
ask people to move into a spaceof discomfort and personal
potentially personal cost aswell.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
A hundred percent and you know, it's all well and
good to be able to and important, I think, to share stories of
where those costs end up beingso outweighed by gains you know
which is time and time and againand we probably all of us
probably know it in one way oranother from our own lives when
we do the hard yards to getsomewhere new, the gain's far

(37:27):
outweighed.
It's like oh, why did I take solong?
Quite often, you know.
So I like to think we're inthat sort of a similar position
now.
But it's also why we need theseskilled processes and support
and then just to come together.
And for gutsy people likemutual friend Kate Cheney, who
won in Curtin, to do that.

Speaker 3 (37:49):
We both had her on our podcast, because it's an
incredible story.

Speaker 1 (37:52):
She's incredible From a standing start.
This person wins a seat thatyou wouldn't dream.
You know, 70 yearsconservatively held that Curtin
would do that, but it's becausepeople got stuck in who never
had before.
So I think that it's almost theanalogy for the whole shebang

(38:12):
right now, I think, is to cometogether for each other in these
ways and knowing that, for allthe difficulty in change, the
rewards are just.
You know, yeah, you'd neverhave imagined.

Speaker 3 (38:29):
So let's talk about you, anthony, because you are a
font of knowledge and clearlyyou know, have led these
conversations and amplifiedthese conversations around
Australia now and, in fact,internationally.
You've played your partinternationally as well and

(38:49):
we'll talk about that in alittle while.
But you've studied and taughtsustainability.
You've writtenthought-provoking articles on
how we can reconsider and reduceour overconsumption, but where
did you first learn aboutregenerative agriculture and
where was your first sort ofspark of interest in

(39:11):
sustainability?

Speaker 1 (39:13):
Well, they're two different questions.
Because I didn't.
Did I even know a farmer?
Oh yeah, I did, because my oldmate and mentor, the first bloke
, who introduced me to systemsthinking in the year 2000.

Speaker 3 (39:25):
Which you know doesn't seem that long ago.
Sorry, I'm that old now rightTo us.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 3 (39:30):
It really doesn't seem that old.

Speaker 1 (39:31):
It's when we say 25 years, when you say the last
millennial.
Yeah, well, that's right.

Speaker 3 (39:36):
That's when I start to feel old.

Speaker 1 (39:38):
And I remember that.
Well too there's a mate of mine, a regenerative farmer, again
only met since I got into thisstuff five years ago, jeff
Powell down south.
He said he's now got a bunch ofyoung people working in his
micro abattoir by the way Microabattoir.

Speaker 3 (39:53):
Yes, it's like a little abattoir on site Does it
extremely humanely.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
They don't have to get trucked anywhere.

Speaker 3 (40:05):
And it goes straight to people like us at the other
end.
And when you see the, and I wasjust watching a documentary on
Netflix or something that wastalking about, we Are what we
Eat, and it was a I don't knowif you saw it, Anthony.
It was a comparison ofidentical twins, and one was put
on a plant-based diet and onewas put on a omnivore diet.
And it was set in America and itwas a real expose as well of

(40:26):
the meat industry in America.
And how awful I don't even havethe words to describe it.
So thinking about what I'veseen on that show, and then the
thought of a micro abattoirthey're poles apart.

Speaker 1 (40:42):
They're poles apart.
I'm so glad you said that thisis true of the methane issue too
.
Right, when you've gotregenerative systems that are
tending life in a beautiful,inherently life-enhancing way,
there's death.
I mean, death is life, but youdon't have to turn life into

(41:02):
death in feedlots, and that iswhere most of the methane in
agriculture comes from.
Still, most of the methane, bythe way, comes from fossil fuels
period.
So even to demonise agricultureis still a minor part of the
methane story, which is so oftenmissed still.

(41:24):
But in agriculture it is thatindustrialised, inhumane form of
doing things.
That's the issue.
So, really, if there's adichotomy to be had, it's
between the industrial methodsperiod and the regenerative
methods, whether it be meat orotherwise.
In fact, I say the meat isplant-based.

(41:46):
What are they eating?
I mean, life is plant-based,that's where it all starts, and
indeed grasslands are probablythe key to the earth's systems
and oceans, really.
But that sort of should gowithout saying being most of the
planet.
But in that sense I'm not beingfunny or flippant, I really
mean it and it's been part of mylearning.

(42:07):
I was vegetarian for a longtime.

Speaker 3 (42:09):
I remember you saying that on one of your podcasts
that you were a vegetarian for along time and then changed.

Speaker 1 (42:14):
Well then, my early instance of this was shifting to
so-called pest meat.
I thought, well, maybe if weeat the pest meat, you know I'd
had health difficulties.
I Maybe, if we eat the pestsmate, you know I'd had health
difficulties.
I was finding problems withbeing veg for so long and it got
really bad for a bit.
So I was experimenting withdifferent things and different
amounts of things and differentfood groups and landed on meat

(42:36):
in part where I hadn't before.
So that was my shift.
And where was I going to get it?
I thought I'll get it frompests and there was some wild
harvest going on of animals thatare destroying the place
rabbits and boars and whateverand roost to a degree being in
excess because of so much of thedenuded lands we've set up for
them, we rolled out the redcarpet in excess.

(42:57):
But, then, to get to yourquestion, it was Charlie's book
Call of the Rebobbler comes out.
I have it put in my handbecause it's all system thinking
and metaphor right.
It's all how we think, it's thelens we bring to the world.
It's the Gregory Bateson lineMarried to Ag.
I'm like holy cow, Okay.
So I got straight on the phone.
Someone wrote it especially foryou.

(43:17):
I know it was like that.
I got straight on the phone andI said the next big event for
me and this is part of where thepodcast came from Tira, because
I'd been running events for 10years, largely out of Melbourne.
They'd been getting bigger andbigger and better and better.
Like I flippantly say, in 2009,there were 50 people and a
couple of hecklers, and in 2018,with Charlie and the couple

(43:41):
from Woolene Station up in theMurchison, it was 300 people in
the standing room only and nohecklers.
The quality of dialogue wasoutstanding, because I got it
happening really interactively.
That ended up, though, beingthe last event of that nature I
held, because that's when wethought we've got to get out
there and then went around thecountry and then people started

(44:01):
listening.
What do you know?
So then I kept going andsupporting the podcast, and then
people started listening, Wadiand I.

Speaker 3 (44:04):
So then, I kept going and supporting the podcast.

Speaker 1 (44:05):
And then people started sending money, which
they did to Waleen too right,they were almost done and dusted
.
The episode with them tells astory of they were bankrupt, the
banks were calling and theywere literally about to
foreclose.
And then Australian story airedand checks started pouring in
the mail and they sort ofjokingly say the banks weren't

(44:28):
going to call again.
They didn't call again.
They didn't need to call again.
The banks, they didn't need to,but also they weren't game hey,
because there would have been anuproar.
And I got similar, you knowluck, in a sense that people
started sending money and then Ifinally got my head together
and set up a subscriptionplatform and it's becoming a bit
of a thing that I can do moreof, but but yeah, just to that.

(44:51):
That was the unexpected, I guess.
A bit of a trajectory, butstill an unexpected twist in the
tail, which, again, it's justindicative, isn't it of, of, uh,
not getting too hooked on whoyou think you are, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:06):
It's a really good message, isn't it?
It's a really good message.
It has been for me.
I tell you yeah.
But sustainability wassomething that you were sort of
really, you sort of framed yourcareer around for a long time.
Yes, yeah, yes.

Speaker 1 (45:21):
Not that I've ever used the word career, because I
think maybe that's part of thenon-linearity of our lives that
you were alluding to before andthat you're feeling now looking
to get back into livelihood,into work of that nature, is
that?
I think, in fact, there's a linein one of my favourite films,
into the Wild, where he says I'mnot destitute.

(45:43):
I think career is a 20thcentury invention, speaking of
the last century 20th centuryinvention, I just don't want one
.
I'm getting back in touch, youknow, with the real world and so
, yeah, I think I mean there'sthat saying, isn't there?
The 40 years and a wristwatchat the end is sort of a bygone

(46:04):
thing.
So, yeah, I've never used theword, and I guess it was partly
because I mean I did businesssystems on scholarship in uni
but lost as all heck.
I mean this was my hopelesstime.
So I know what dark looks likewhere you're even oblivious to

(46:26):
options.
There's just nothing, eventhough I'm getting paid to study
, but I wasn't enjoying it and Ididn't know who I was.
So that was tough.
But I guess it's why, when Igot lucky and circumstances

(46:47):
shifted, I was shifted, mycontext shifted.
So, dad, who I hadn't spokenwith for years, compass Airlines
comes on board for the oldies.

Speaker 3 (46:57):
I lost $500 in them.

Speaker 1 (47:01):
Well before they went bust.

Speaker 3 (47:02):
Yeah, yeah, that was it.
Bought the ticket going toMelbourne.
Well, that's it, I went bustgoing to Melbourne.
Well, that's it, I went bust,lost my $500.

Speaker 1 (47:07):
$250 tickets to Melbourne were unheard of.
But we were in Melbourne andthat's partly why I was feeling
stranded.
Dad took us there and Ifinished my schooling there and
then was doing this degree there.
And then Compass comes on.
And even though we haven'tspoken for years since being
blasphemous.
Compass comes on and even thoughwe haven't spoken for years
since being blasphemous, he buysus all a ticket back home, at

(47:30):
least the way I thought it wasstill home back here in Perth,
and that shifting context, whichI couldn't do so ironic that he
was the one who did it for methat turned the lights on for me
, something about being back oncountry, maybe with family who

(47:51):
didn't know, by the way, that Iwas a basket case, so I sort of
put a bit of a mask on but itgot me going, type of thing.
But it still says somethingabout we could do more of for
each other if, feeling in a rut,shift the context, maybe even
dramatically at times, and seewhat happens.
It certainly was my lucky bolt.

(48:11):
And then I guess what I had wasa whole bunch of insight as to
what isn't working.

Speaker 3 (48:19):
And that's a really powerful understanding, isn't it
?

Speaker 1 (48:22):
I look back and say that oh yeah.
At the time, it's just freakinghard.

Speaker 3 (48:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, totally, totally.
You know, understand that.
But when you know what youdon't want, or when you know
what doesn't work, it just helpsto eliminate a whole bunch of
stuff so that you can thenrefocus on the good stuff and
you open up.

Speaker 1 (48:42):
Yeah, yeah, so that's what happened after Perth was
the opening.
So I actually still came backto Melbourne, finished that
degree.
It was paying me so I could buydrums and stuff and I got stuck
in a rock band Do you know what?

Speaker 3 (48:53):
That's another thing.
I did find that out about youas I was Google stalking you,
Anthony.

Speaker 1 (48:57):
I don't think there's anything online about that era.

Speaker 3 (49:05):
Yeah, there is.
There's something in there thatI saw that and I just thought I
knew you were cool.
But then, seeing that you werea drummer in a touring rock and
roll band, True, but if you sawpictures, no, there were no
pictures on mine.
Yeah, well, that's right youmight change your mind.

Speaker 1 (49:16):
It was that cool.
Thankfully, not many see thelight of day, but it's out there
, it's out there.

Speaker 3 (49:22):
Anthony.
So just so that there's moreout there, tell us a little bit
more about your drumming.

Speaker 1 (49:26):
Oh well, drumming, I mean music was my birth in that
sense and I guess because, inkeeping with a lot of the themes
, it's where I was able to gobig Before I understood anything
.
Right, I wasn't thinking thisway, but really you could look
back and make some sense.
You could create a narrative init.
It's bigger than the narrative,but you could create a

(49:48):
narrative that says, yeah, Ibirthed at that time as me.
I connected with people withsome chemistry.
There was some magic about wedid stuff that was stupid.

Speaker 3 (50:03):
But necessary.

Speaker 1 (50:04):
But necessary and awesome.
And that, you know, it stillshapes me today because I look
back and I think that the besttimes in my life where most
magic, if you like, washappening was you know, by
itself, beyond me, almost youknow that I just had to
participate in it was, you know,by itself, beyond me, almost

(50:26):
you know that I just had toparticipate in it.
Was then in the band.
Later, when I went and lived inGuatemala for a few, when the
band ended and I just felt acall.
So again, it wasn't organised,but I just felt to go there and
something would happen.
And it did and it did.

Speaker 3 (50:40):
Yeah, let's talk about that.
All right, we can come back tothat.

Speaker 1 (50:45):
But that was home for a few years and then there was
a bit of a hiatus because Iactually came back and got stuck
into studies aboutinternational development and
sustainability.
I thought I want to test whatI've experienced in the last
decade with the body ofknowledge, which was really good
but also really hard, and Ifelt a bit lost again for a

(51:08):
while because it wasn't, itdidn't marry up with a lot of
what I mean, some of it did.
I don't want to diss it.
Who am I to say you know thebody of knowledge on
international development?

Speaker 3 (51:18):
What do they know?

Speaker 1 (51:21):
But there were some aspects yeah, yeah, that it felt
excellent but limiting in someaspects.
That it felt excellent butlimiting in some ways, except
for some units, and, bless, myhost institution enabled me to
cherry pick, so I got creditsfor units all around the country
and really zeroed in on peopleI wanted to learn from and that
was awesome.
But as I was thinking back atthe time of life where I wanted

(51:43):
to shift and I was startingthese events and so forth and I
thought what are my benchmarksof experiences and how did I go
about them?
And these were the benchmarksthe band and Guatemala and I
thought, okay, let's tap whatcomes next in a similar fashion,
and that's essentially you knowwhat guides me today still, and

(52:06):
I guess what's produced some ofthe magic over the last
unbelievably, I can say, 10years, yeah, that's so awesome,
isn't it?

Speaker 3 (52:15):
and it feels like when you've been a traveler
rather than the tour guide.

Speaker 1 (52:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (52:24):
It's sort of come together in a more holistic
sense for you.

Speaker 1 (52:29):
Very astute comment, because I'm still not the tour
guide.
I mean maybe I am to some, butthat's not going to be for me to
say or think If I'm of thatkind of value to someone else,
awesome, as others have been tome, cool.
But it's not for me to think it.
I'm still the traveller.

Speaker 3 (52:49):
Because you're still learning, you're still putting
all those pieces together.

Speaker 1 (52:52):
Still learning, yeah, yeah, Still, you know, learning
in ways that you're wow.
That old saying is the more youknow.

Speaker 3 (52:59):
The less you are.
I remember that moment, wakingup one morning and just
realising having this epiphanyof how little I knew about
anything.

Speaker 1 (53:08):
Yeah, and hopefully it comes with how bloody
wonderful that is.
Yes.

Speaker 3 (53:13):
There was a moment of fear and anxiety.
I have to say it's just like ohmy goodness, what does this
mean now?
Because I'm going to not knowanything, because I know that I
don't know it to the extent ofwhat it's supposed to be known.
It's like that.
I came across this word in thelast few, probably last year,
called sonder.

Speaker 1 (53:33):
Oh, you told me.

Speaker 3 (53:34):
Is that what we were talking about?

Speaker 1 (53:35):
You told me this and I've sent it to everybody I
could think of.

Speaker 3 (53:39):
Yeah, wasn't it amazing.
So the word sonder has got lotsof different meanings, but one
of the psychological meanings,or in psychology the word Sonder
, means to have this moment ofrealization that every single
person that you encounter, ordon't even not even encounter,
has got their own rich, complexlife going on inside them and we

(54:01):
sort of know that, but we don'tknow that, yeah, exactly.
And that moment of realization,when you actually get that, it's
a pretty powerful.
For me it was a pretty powerfulmoment.
And, similarly, when you wakeup and you realize that there is
so much you don't know, andeverything you do know, you only

(54:21):
actually have one.
Perhaps you've only got onedimension of it.
Because you talked aboutdimensions, right, which is a
really good way to describe ityou perhaps know one dimension
pretty well, but you don't knowall the other dimensions which
make it full and full of lifeand meaning.

Speaker 1 (54:42):
Yeah, so true, isn't it?
Nora Bateson talks about thatComplexity needs to be met with
complexity, whether that's inthe person or in the broader
nature, because it's the samething, right.
And that's where you start tofeel the union that Gregory's
talking about, that there's nodistinction.
We are nature, and the body Imean, let alone the mind, I mean

(55:04):
how complex is it?
But yeah, I mean, in a sense itcomes back to the relinquishment
of control is what it's notright?
So if you can, in those momentsthat are a bit scarier with it,
relinquish the control, andthen that's just a practice too,
because you never get okay.
Now I do it, now I can do it,now I've mastered it.

(55:25):
Maybe you do, maybe some do,maybe that is enlightenment, but
most of us won't get there.
But you can practice it and thepractice is beautiful Because,
again, I don't want to soundPollyanna-ish with these things,
or even with my own journey,like you know.
I look at it and think how luckywas I to come out of darkness.

(55:48):
That could have been the endand have it not.
Have it be so far from therethat people who would meet today
would not imagine that to havehappened.
But it just I don't know.
It's a little.
It's again analogous, isn't it,to what we're seeing on the
land, with people I mean dustbowls turned back to wild spaces

(56:11):
that are producing farmed foodPretty incredible, and that's
just in a short window ofdecades, let alone then when
they marry out with FirstNations stuff, as is
increasingly happening.
We just had a bakery launch inthe heart of Sydney that's
entirely First Nations owned, isthat?

Speaker 2 (56:31):
right, I mean I could go on.

Speaker 1 (56:32):
I could tell you another 10 things on that line.
There's other things that arefalling away, that pioneered.
So you know again, it's notabsolute, but the stuff coming
on still blows your mind, andit's the younger generation.
So you're like all right, let'sback that in now let's get
behind it in ways perhaps wecouldn't, for some of the
original pioneers of return inthat instance.

Speaker 3 (56:55):
But I reckon that there's an element of patience
within all of this, becauseyou're saying the wonderful and
you're saying it's so easy, it'sflowing in just a few short
decades, like you know.

Speaker 1 (57:04):
a few short decades is 20, 30 years right or longer?
Yes.

Speaker 3 (57:09):
And that's a long time for some people.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
Good point.
It's short when we consideragain the big game.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (57:21):
Extremely short and even when we look into the
literature about humantransformation, extremely short.
So that's amazing.
Cool, let's put that in thecorner, yep.
Um, then we can talk about whatsome Indigenous folk will say.
We've been waiting 200 yearsfor you, guys to hear us.

Speaker 2 (57:46):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:46):
Yeah, and just come to the bloody table, yeah.
Yeah, come to the table, yeah,because, hey, we know a thing or
two and we might be able to dosome cool stuff together, which
is unbelievable that I'm hearingthat so much too.
By the way, it still blows meaway that the invitation and the
patience, yes, and yeah, I'llprobably stop there.

(58:06):
There's certainly still stuffto work through, isn't there?
But certainly the invitationand the patience is there and I
find in large part theunderstanding that it's such a
new context.
We are all going to have tofind new ways from here, but
there's a lot of value in notjust what people know in their

(58:27):
minds or even in old stories,but what the land still knows
and, in that sense, what evenour internal barometers, what
our bodies know.
There's that famous book, theBody Keeps the Score.
It's become a bit famous now.

Speaker 3 (58:41):
I've heard of it, but I don't know enough about it.

Speaker 1 (58:43):
Well, worth looking up, essentially about trauma and
how it matters.
It's like epigen, famous now.
I've heard of it but I don'tknow enough about it.

Speaker 3 (58:46):
Well worth looking up Essentially about trauma and
how it matters.
Is it like epigenetics?

Speaker 1 (58:48):
Yeah, exactly epigenetics yeah, a new science
of epigenetics last 10 or 15years, which just you know.
There are stories that evenappeared on the podcast I host,
where people's dreams of traumawon't be what they've
experienced.
They'll map onto past families.

Speaker 3 (59:06):
It blows my mind the whole theory of, not theory but
the practice whatever it is, ofIndigenous Whatever it is,
because I don't even know whatit is.

Speaker 1 (59:13):
I know.

Speaker 3 (59:13):
I can't.
Imagine that.

Speaker 1 (59:17):
So we had one Indigenous guest, heidi Mippy
Perhaps some listeners will knowher who visited one of the
global pioneers in regenerativeagriculture in the wheat belt
here, the Haggerty family.
She visited them.
I was there.
She'd never been there.
She arrives in the dark, shegets put up in a room in the
homestead and this was all onthe podcast if people want to

(59:37):
hear the longer story.
But basically she comes out thenext morning and says I felt
the serpent visit me, landed onme and called me out Is there a
Namahole, like a waterholearound?
And I said yeah, yeah, it'sjust out the back of your room.
They go out there and clear asday from an aerial view.

(01:00:00):
Right, this rock formation is aserpent coiled up in rest
position.
And yeah, would be Namahols ifthere was water.
And you're like what the hellis going on.
But again for Heidi, she'ssaying, yeah, you probably think
I'm weird, but really she knowsthat this isn't.
I mean, it's spectacular in thesense that nature's spectacular

(01:00:24):
and we are spectacular as partof that.
But it's not extraordinary.
It's or at least it can beordinary if this is what we tend
.
So you know the fact thatyou're blown away by what you're
blown away by, I mean, and thenit goes to this level, by what
you're blown away by, and thenit goes to this level that that

(01:00:46):
is life's inherent regenerativecapacity impulse.
And so what's on offer is thatour lives can be constantly in
awe.

Speaker 3 (01:00:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:01):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (01:01:01):
Yeah, I'll take that, I'll take that too.
I'll take that too for sure.
For sure, or and wonder havealways been my favourite gifts
right.

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
Well, curiosity or a wonder?

Speaker 3 (01:01:11):
would take you a long way.
Yeah, I agree, I agree, butthat changes.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
You know we talked about how that changes our
culture's view of human natureas being pretty shitty.
You know, got to be whippedinto shape, got to be kicked off
the dole, can't be given a homeif you're on the street because
you haven't earned it.
You know, and you're a sinnerto start with in some quarters,
like I experienced the same withnature.
Right, you have to be whippedinto shape.

(01:01:35):
You've got to kill the weedsbecause you don't belong, you
don't deserve to be.
Kill the donkeys in bloody.
One of the regenerativestations in the Kimberley is
using wild donkeys, reherdingthem and having them perform
regenerative functions up therewhere other animals can't, and
he's turning desertifiedKimberley back into wetland.

(01:01:56):
It's extraordinary and thedonkeys are helping, but because
they're designated pests, thegovernment's been on them to
kill them.
So there's this real processgoing on at the moment, Speaking
of a process that could usemore of the processes we're
talking about?
it's another story.
But what if the pests in thiscountry so-called even the weeds

(01:02:16):
in this country, which areoften native grasses, right the
dingo.
What if they were allowed tolive, accepted as an inherent
part of a regenerative whole?
But we then just had to figureout, observe well enough, be
patient enough, figure out andbe part of, and that your reward

(01:02:37):
is wow again.
To use a too oft used word, butI'm going to use it abundance.

Speaker 3 (01:02:45):
I love that word.
There we go.
Don't you go and diss the wordabundance.

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
But that's part of the reward.
Yeah, so that nature wouldn'tbe the thing you have to beat up
to feed everyone.
It's not that.
In reality, we can play adifferent game and it's a more
fun game Much more fun game yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:03:06):
But what about for us playing at home?
Right, for us that are playingthe game at home, that are not
regenerative farmers, that don'thave anything to do with
agriculture, apart from,obviously, consuming the product
?
Well, let's say yes, so we allhave something to do with
agriculture, but you know, we'rethe ones that eat it, we don't
grow it.
So how can we play along athome in this regenerative world?

Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
well, firstly, even if you don't, even where you're
not eating food from a placelike kachana right that doesn't
export its cattle or donkeysbecause it's more concerned with
getting a functioning landscapethey're land doctors to them.

Speaker 3 (01:03:42):
Right land doctors.
I love that term.

Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
Yeah.
So even where food's not beingexported off land, it still
needs to function right and, ina sense, waters the barometer of
that.
So now he's got streams that runinto the main rivers that are
crystal clear.
You can drink out of them, andwe do, but the river is full of
silt when it rains up there inthe monsoonal season.

(01:04:06):
I put a picture of thisrecently on LinkedIn actually,
because it was like here it goesagain, you know another season.
It clearly does not have to beso.
Even where we're eating yes,important Back it into the hilt
every way you can, that's ifyou're a funder or obviously an
eater.
But then there's the watersystem and this is where part of

(01:04:28):
the story obviously is sharingthe story.
Part of it is obviouslypolitical.
So it's how can we've still gota system that's not working?
And you know, bless the currentgovernment trying to take more
steps in that direction, but Istill feel it's too held by the
way power's been for a while.
And bless the independents.

(01:04:49):
I think they're pushing theagenda a little bit.
I feel like and again, this isnothing against the people who
believe in those parties still,but I feel like we need less of
an adversarial system as a whole, more of a parliament that
talks to each other andnegotiates and figures stuff out
and learns, then less defendingpower bases.

Speaker 3 (01:05:09):
And not politicising issues Exactly, I think that's
where things come and crop up,don't they?

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
So I feel like a big part of what happens next on
this front and with theregenerative movement, the
independence movement sorry samething arguably is is that the
regional, like the independencemovement, started in the regions
, right, but there wasn'tanother regional rep elected at
the last elections it'sinteresting, it was all cities.
So what's next, arguably, isfor it to a whole bunch of

(01:05:39):
people to come in from theregions where they are more
directly connected to how thewater systems work across the
broad mass of our landscape, butnot to distance ourselves from
that.
So, in that sense, to assistand be part of, and maybe even
just in other urban seats herein Perth, I mean, let alone

(01:06:00):
anywhere else like keep it going, if only to do what Cathy
McGowan originally wanted to doall those kids, which was to
just make it a contest, make itcontested.
So people have to open up andbe curious and listen and not be
so politicised in a way thatmost of us are just jack off.
So I think that's a big part ofit, but it's not the only part,

(01:06:21):
because I think wherever we areand this is another you know
systems, thinking, ethos,wherever you are, you're
connected to everything andwhatever you do affects
everything.
So, a look out, don't take whatyou do lightly.
And B when you feel likeaffecting some change.

(01:06:44):
It could be as simple as aphone call.
Right that sets off a nationaltransformation within a decade,
as in the situation with Kathy,kathy's nephew and what happened
after that.
So in a way, I feel like it'sbe careful what you wish for,
but then wish for it and trysomething.

Speaker 3 (01:07:05):
Yeah, and watch the magic.

Speaker 1 (01:07:07):
Watch the magic Be part of it, keep observing.
It's almost like as if we wereon the land, because you still
are.

Speaker 3 (01:07:14):
Oh, anthony, it's been such a joy to have you
around the warm table today.
We did, as promised, go downall sorts of rabbit warrens.
We've gone really highphilosophical ideas, which is
you know where we connected on,you know, that sort of level,
and we've explored some of thewonderful things that you've
achieved and continue to achieve, some of the stories that you

(01:07:37):
continue to amplify.
But you know, most importantly,with our theme of hope, what
I've really loved about ourconversation is this idea of
nature having the magic withinitself to regenerate, and we as
humans also have that very samepotential.
So thank you for bringing thatto the warm table today.

Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
Thanks so much, sonia , and you know I feel like the
culture you've brought to thispodcast you know from which
you've come knew all that tooright.
My warm table, this whole thing, is an emblem of grounding,
that high essence, if you like.

(01:08:22):
It's a great pleasure andhonour to be around your table,
so thanks for having me.

Speaker 4 (01:08:29):
Hi, I'm Kelly Riley, creator and head coach of
Females Over 45 Fitness, or FOFas we are fondly called.
Our studio is located inVictoria Park and we are also
online all across Australia.
At FOF, our members range inage from 45 through to 84 years
of age at the moment.
They're amazing examples ofhope.

(01:08:51):
Let's meet one of our membersnow and be inspired by her story
.

Speaker 2 (01:08:56):
Hi, my name is Patricia, I'm in my 60s and a
grandmother of seven.
I train at FOF three days aweek and also do altitude
chamber boxing twice a week.
I also adore scrapbooking andbeing creative with interactive
pages.
I was in a contract thattransported prisoners all around
Western Australia for 15 years.

(01:09:17):
I resigned from this to pursuea new venture and business in
beauty therapy and masseuse withless stress and also to look
after myself.
I've changed my fitness andstrength to help with my knees
and also to keep fit.
I'm working out with afantastic group of ladies from
FOF, made many friendships andhave friendly competitions

(01:09:38):
between us.
I'm looking forward tosemi-retirement, keeping fit and
healthy, more travel and morefun and exercise with the ladies
.

Speaker 3 (01:09:50):
Thanks for joining us around the warm table.
My warm table is produced,hosted and edited by me, sonia
Nolan.
It's my way of amplifyingpositivity and curiosity in our
community.
I invite you to share thisconversation with family and
friends and follow my Warm Tablepodcast on Facebook, instagram
and LinkedIn.
Also, you can subscribe andfollow my Warm Table on Spotify

(01:10:14):
or Apple Podcasts, and maybeeven leave a review, because it
helps others to find us moreeasily.