July 22, 2024 • 43 mins
What if understanding the intricate relationship between mental and physical health could be the key to holistic well-being? Join us at My Warm Table as we chat with Nicola Cooper, a highly experienced mental health nurse and therapist with a rich background in cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) from the UK. Nicola shares her compelling journey and deep insights into the complexities of mental health, focusing on pressing issues like eating disorders, emotional regulation, and the repercussions of the COVID-19 pandemic on mental health. Through Nicola's expert lens, we explore how integrating holistic care can transform lives and foster genuine healing.
In our warm table conversation, Nicola delves into strategies for managing digital consumption, particularly concerning harmful online content related to eating disorders; and she brings to light the critical need for trauma-informed care. We also explore the nuanced balance between medication, therapy, and personalized treatment plans with Nicola.
Join us!
Warm thanks to:
Sponsor: Females Over Forty-five Fitness in Victoria Park
Sound Engineering: Damon Sutton
Music: William A Spence
... and all our generous and inspiring guests around the warm table this season!
Please rate and review this podcast - it helps to share the love with others!
You can also follow My Warm Table on social media and join the conversation:
Facebook Instagram LinkedIn
Catch up on all episodes. You'll find My Warm Table on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Buzzsprout and more ...
My Warm Table, translated into Italian is Tavola Calda. These were the words my Papa used to describe a table of good friends, good food and good conversation. I always aim to create a tavola calda in my life and I hope this podcast encourages you to do so too!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
for me personally, I hold the hope from the beginning
, like to me, like I've workedin so many places, in so many
different areas and with youknow, clients that have had
multiple admissions and arelabeled that complex client and
feel like they're never going toget better or they feel like
they've tried a lot of things.
(00:25):
So I personally hold the hopefrom the beginning for the
client.
Whether they see it or not, orwhether we talk about that from
the beginning or not, I alwayshold that hope for them.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Thanks for joining me , sonia Nolan, around the warm
table, or the double a calda asmy Italian papa used to call a
welcoming table of acceptance,positivity and curiosity.
My Warm Table podcast aims tocreate that and more, as we
amplify stories of WesternAustralians making our
communities better.
My Warm Table Season 3 is proudto be sponsored by Females Over
(01:03):
45 Fitness, with a studio inVictoria Park and also online
all over Australia.
So now please take a seat andjoin us for Season 3 as we
explore stories of hope.
Mental health is a growingconcern in our community.
Mental disorders affect two infive people in Australia, so
(01:24):
it's very likely that you orsomeone you know will have
experienced challenges withmental health.
Around the warm table today,I'm delighted to welcome Nicola
Cooper, a credentialed mentalhealth nurse and nurse therapist
who's been working in the fieldfor 10 years, guiding clients
towards hope and healing intheir mental health journeys.
(01:44):
Nicola trained in the UK andholds mental health nursing and
postgraduate mental healthqualifications.
Her work in the area of eatingdisorders came with a huge
flourish of recommendation to mefrom a warm table listener who
believes Nicola is among thebest in her field and we are so
lucky to have her here in WA.
(02:05):
Nicola predominantly works withadolescents and adults.
Her special interests areworking with people who
experience eating disorders suchas anorexia nervosa, bulimia
nervosa, binge eating disorderand body image concerns.
She also works with peopleexperiencing perinatal mental
health concerns and personalitydisorders and emotional
(02:26):
dysregulation.
She's experienced in workingwith clients who have low mood,
depression, anxiety, stress, lowself-esteem and perfectionism.
I look forward to understandingthese issues and more as we
chat with Nicola around the warmtable today.
Join us, nicola.
(02:48):
Thank you so much for joiningme around the warm table.
Thank you for having me.
Oh, it's going to be a reallyimportant conversation I think
we're going to have today,because we're talking about
mental health and you are amental health nurse and also a
nurse therapist, so let's startby understanding exactly what a
nurse therapist is that's areally good question.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Um, well, I suppose for me, because I trained in the
uk, um, my degree is in mentalhealth nursing, so from the
beginning we, um I'll talk, talk, therapeutic techniques, we do
clinical supervision, um all ofthose things that you expect
when you're a mental healthclinician.
So it's been hard to explain inAustralia because the training
(03:33):
is very different.
So how I think about it is it'sa bit similar to like a social
work therapist or anoccupational therapist doing
therapy, not just the elementsof their discipline, if that
makes sense.
So, yeah, to me it means that Ihave done that mental health
(03:55):
training.
So cognitive behavioral therapywas embedded into our training,
and what I mean by that is thatit was a therapy that we were
taught about from the beginning,and that means a therapy that
looks at people's.
In basic terms, it looks atpeople's thoughts, feelings and
behaviours, tracking those,thinking about those, what are
(04:19):
the links, what are the patterns, and then how we maybe change
some of those patterns,depending on whether it's
focusing on the thoughts, andthen that changes the way people
feel and then behave, and thenvice versa.
It looks like doing behavioralexperiments, um, thinking about
emotions and what comes up forpeople and what are the triggers
(04:39):
for those and how it intersectswith the other two, and I just
had a real passion for holisticcare.
So I feel like, from my nursingperspective, I have that
understanding of physical healthissues and how that might
impact mental health and howmental health might impact
physical health as well, andthen also keen to work with
people therapeutically throughthose issues and try and give
(05:03):
them strategies to cope better,to make improvements to their
lives.
And at the point where they'rewilling to do that, and I feel
like, from a nursing perspectiveagain, like there's many points
that we can often have contactwith clients and different ways
of building that therapeuticrapport and that relationship
with them and the trust that youreally need to be able to do
(05:23):
therapy therapeutic rapport andthat relationship with them and
the trust that you really needto be able to do therapy so with
your training.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
tell me about the area that you specifically focus
in on with your mental healthpractice.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
So currently a lot of my work is with people with
eating disorders and people withemotional regulation issues and
I would say probably depressionand anxiety and some of the
things that go along with thosediagnoses.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah, and what about then the mental health as it's
changed over the last, I guess,10 years or so that you've been
in this space?
How have you seen, or have youseen, a difference in the way
mental health is talked about ormental health issues?
Presenting what's been yourexperience?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
I think overall, I think awareness is always
increasing.
I think we're always talkingabout more things.
I just I sometimes wonder howthose things come up or when
they come up, because it seemsto be.
We're a bit, I think, as humansin nature we're a bit reactive,
so when there seems to be a lotof something, then everybody's
(06:34):
talking about it and then itdrops off again and then.
But I think generally it'sbeing more talked about.
I think during COVID Covid, Ithink everybody experienced a
lot more mental health stressthan we'd ever experienced
before and I think that's seen alot of increase in
presentations.
There's been a lot more demandand I think it's really tested
(06:56):
people's ability to cope.
Um, and specifically in thearea that I work it's there work
we've noticed a significantincrease in people presenting
with eating disorders.
I don't have the exactstatistics for that and I think
in general there was just notedthat there was more drug and
alcohol presentations and therewas more youth presentations of
(07:20):
people that were struggling overthat time.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Do we still have that COVID lag Like?
Are we still suffering from theeffects of COVID now, or do you
think we've sort of come overthat hump and we're in a new
phase?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
I don't know that we've fully come over it now,
because I think the way like theeating disorder presentations
definitely obviously that's whatI'm more involved with, but it
doesn't seem to be like reducing, um, and I think some of that
is definitely COVID.
But I think, as well you know,there's lots of theories about
(07:55):
why that might be increasing ingeneral, with younger people
having access to social mediaand all of those kind of things,
and I think maybe, um, yeah,but I think young people in
general, like youthpresentations, and mental health
has gone up.
What's your?
Speaker 2 (08:11):
theory or hypothesis in that um, I think there's a.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
I'm probably going to sound really old when I say
you're in good company but Ijust think there's different
pressures on young people today.
I think they have so much accessto so much information that we
didn't have not having theinternet when we were growing up
.
Um, I don't think.
I think if you were bullied atschool when you were at school,
(08:40):
when you got home, at leastthere was reprieve.
I don't think there's that foryoung people.
Um, and people, yeah, just notgetting any break from any of
the pressure, you know, ifthey're looking on their phone
and they're feeling bad aboutthemselves, and then there's a
million adverts that aretargeted at people to make them
(09:00):
feel worse about themselves, andit's just, it's a bit of a
vicious cycle, I think.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Yeah, so do you recommend digital detox for
people?
Is that something that you werean advocate for?
Speaker 1 (09:12):
I'm more of an advocate, I think, for reporting
offensive things.
So, obviously, doing a lot ofthe work that I do personally,
like when I've been to trainingsand talked to people and
actually just examined some ofmy own stuff, like my own
Instagram reel and what doesthat look like and you know,
(09:33):
just like I don't know ifeverybody gets this or maybe it
was just on my phone, but, um, Iwas getting a lot of.
You know, summer bodies aremade in winter.
Um, do this 12 week juice dietor whatever it is like it's.
I feel like it's pushed on us,so much.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
It's so cleverly targeted through their
advertising strategies and thealgorithms, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (09:55):
yeah, yeah so I just made more of a conscious effort
just to report it toinstagrammers irrelevant or
offensive and not wanting to seeit.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Yeah, because you can go into that three little dots
or whatever in every reel or onall social media and actually
report things or say you want tosee less of, and so being
really active in that space isgood for our mental health.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Yeah, and I think, just as a community, if people
are doing that more and we'requestioning why we're seeing
these things.
I think that's what I talk toyoung people about If they're
caught up in looking at thosethings or getting caught up in
the messages, really trying todrill down what is that person
wanting in that advert?
And a lot of the time it's yourmoney, like it's not about your
(10:41):
mental health.
No, it's a transaction, isn'tit?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Yeah, and money, like .
It's not about your mentalhealth, no, it's a transaction,
isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, and it's verysimilar to sitting on your email
and unsubscribing to everythingthat you don't need to be
getting through your email aswell.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
So it is, it's actually being um very proactive
in what is presented to youyeah, yeah and like obviously
tiktok is a is a big platformwith young people, but you can
do similar things on tiktok aswell, to say that you don't want
to see stuff or it's irrelevant, and I think it's more
educating people about whythey're stuck in that or why
(11:14):
they're getting caught down arabbit hole, rather than trying
to detox from it, if that makessense yeah, I guess it's a more,
um, proactive and realisticapproach, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
because, fine, you can come off it for a more
proactive and realistic approach, isn't it?
Because, fine, you can come offit for a little while, but then
you're back on it and you'represented with the same things,
whereas if you change thelandscape, it's more powerful.
Yeah, great advice,particularly, and the key focus
of your mental health trainingand your key focus in your
(11:48):
mental health work is in eatingdisorders.
Yeah, so there are a wide rangeof eating disorders, though,
aren't there?
So it's not just.
I mean, what comes to mindimmediately for me is anorexia
nervosa.
That's, I guess, the one thatmaybe gets the most publicity,
and maybe people have beentouched by that in some way with
a family member or friend.
But there are other eatingdisorders too, aren't there?
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, and I think you're not alone there.
I think when people think ofeating disorders, they typically
think of anorexia, but yeah,there's bulimia nervosa as well
and binge eating disorder, andbinge eating disorder is
actually probably one of themost prominent ones.
How does that present?
So binge eating disorder issomebody that has periods of
(12:32):
sorry episodes of binge eating.
So that happens several times aweek and then they experience
significant guilt around thatafter and shame.
Then they experiencesignificant guilt around that
after and shame, um, and thenwill maybe try, and they often.
There's often strict rules thatthey try to follow so that
(12:53):
mentality of I'll be bettertomorrow and then they might try
and restrict because they'vebinged eat the night before and
then obviously then they'rehungry and then that drives the
binging behavior.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
It's really complex, isn't it?
Because you know, I think thatwe have, because of popular
culture, we have a really poorrelationship with what healthy
eating actually looks like.
Yeah, is that a fair assumption?
Fair thing to say.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
I think so definitely , and I think in this space as
well, and in the eating disorderspace, we see so many, I see so
many families and so many youngpeople and adults with very
strict views about what ishealthy and what isn't healthy,
and what we should be eating andwhat we should be avoiding, and
(13:43):
I think all of the mixedmessages really plays out in the
people that you see and,depending on what they've been
exposed to or what they've triedor what their family's view of
that is, yeah, it's even verydifferent for the families that
we see.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, I can imagine, because you know we're just
surrounded by so many you knowsort of dietitian experts on
social media and friends andeveryone in some sort of diet
phase or craze.
It just seems this constant youshould be keto, you should be
paleo, you should be eating moreprotein, you should be no carbs
.
There's so much that's beenthrown at us and yet moderation
(14:23):
is very rarely talked about.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Everything in moderation.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Yeah, definitely yeah .
So with your work in the eatingdisorder area, tell me more
about that.
Tell me about what you'reseeing in young people in this
area.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Just that it starts very early, I think, um a
puberty.
It seems to be um a significanttime for people, I think, going
through those body changes andalso normally that coincides
with people starting high school.
Um, and it's just a reallyvulnerable time, I think, for
(15:02):
the brain obviously, inparticular with all the changes
that it goes through at that ageand also that transition from
primary to high school, thedifferent expectations in
education wise, friend, wise,you might be changing schools.
There's a lot going on and,yeah, those body ideals that, um
, a lot of young people areaspiring to be like and
(15:23):
obviously that changes, I think,with the trends at the time
ideals that aren't achievablefor people and seeing that all
the time.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Yeah, it's hard, yeah it is.
And are there any indicatorsthat parents could be looking
out for that?
You know unhealthy thinking oryou know sort of those
indicators that might mean that,down the track, we could be
presenting with, you knowunhealthy thinking or you know
sort of those indicators thatmight mean that, down the track,
we could be presenting with,you know, an eating disorder?
Is there anything that parentsshould be looking for?
Speaker 1 (15:52):
I really wish there was that five steps that you
could do or five things tomonitor, but I just I feel like
there's that fine line betweenliving normal life and being
over our teenagers and kids andthat helicopter parenting and
worrying about every singlething that they're doing.
(16:12):
I think, honing into whatyou're worried about and what's
causing that worry and what'scausing that worry, and, if
you're, I think that actuallythe biggest thing is to notice
any changes, like just bemindful of changes that are
happening with young people,Because I think when people look
(16:33):
back or in hindsight becausehindsight's a beautiful thing,
it's a wonderful- thing, yeah,it's the best thing.
Yeah, they'll say things likeyou know, we noticed that she
was in a room a lot more, or shestarted running three times a
week, or he started not comingdown for dinner he didn't want
to eat with us, or, you know, hewas not going to football or he
(16:57):
wasn't going with his friendsas much anymore.
So, and like I said, there's noway to explore that and I know
sometimes teenagers are notwanting to talk to their parents
, but being curious wherepossible, and if you do get shot
down, just go back to themlater and ask them again and try
and gently express why you'reconcerned, just trying to be
(17:19):
mindful, I suppose.
But I don't.
I feel, yeah, it's hard forparents to spot because it's a,
it's a type of well.
With any mental health illness,I think, or issue, obviously
there's a lot of shame that'sassociated with most of it.
So it's often quite secret, um,and the person feels that shame
and embarrassment and doesn'twant to talk about it.
(17:41):
So the illness actually getsreally good at, you know,
keeping those things hidden.
So it's hard.
It's a hard question to answer.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
It's a hard issue to deal with, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
So in your work, nicola, I knowthat one of the things that
you're really passionate aboutis building that rapport and you
know, through empathy andthrough compassion and really
good listening, which I dare sayis part of your nursing
background, as well, and youknow the importance of building
(18:14):
that relationship with yourpatients so that they can feel
they're in a really safe spaceto talk to you about these
things.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
I think my mum, when I wasgrowing up, worked in aged care
and I'll never, ever forget hersaying this, but she always used
to say that she always treatedpeople how she would want her
family to be treated and it waslike her core belief at work and
(18:42):
it was always what she saidabout everything, Whether you
were with friends or at work orgoing into a working career.
That was her advice and that'ssomething that I hold very close
to my heart and I think, yeah,that's always at the front of my
mind when I meet a person and I, yeah, when that rapport
(19:03):
building it's about meeting theperson where they're at,
thinking about how they've putwhere they're presenting.
What does that look like?
What do I know about the person?
How can I make them feelcomfortable in the moment,
thinking about the environment,all of those things?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yeah, and that's just so incredibly important to all
your patients and just abeautiful place to start, isn't
it?
You know to build that trustand compassion.
Yeah, one of the other thingsthat I understand you use in
your work is trauma-informedapproaches.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Tell me about trauma, yeah, I suppose I just I was
thinking that when you, when Iwas talking, I was listing some
of those things.
But yeah, trauma-informed careto me is having an understanding
that people go through thingsthat are difficult and that
(19:57):
could mean different things toeverybody.
So I think the basis of it forme is not making an assumption,
coming into things openly,trying to ask people, maybe
beforehand, before they come andsee me.
Is there anything that's beendifficult about seeing people
before?
Um, you know, is there anythingin the room that we can bring
(20:18):
in that might make you feel morecomfortable thinking about
those things, like in theenvironment?
What can I do?
Um, what hasn't been helpfulbefore?
Speaker 2 (20:27):
what kind of things might people ask to say that
would make me feel better if youhad that in the room?
Is there anything specific?
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Just that.
Everybody's different.
So sometimes people, I alwayshave like fidget toys in the
room.
Anyway, I've always got pensand paper.
Do you have a weighted?
Speaker 2 (20:45):
blanket.
I've heard that's really good.
I don't actually.
But yeah, people in differentwork settings I have had that,
but not at my office at themoment.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
No, we don't actually but yeah, people in different
work settings I have had that,but not at my office at the
moment?
No, we don't have that um.
So yeah, comforting things, thethings that you and also like
thinking about the lighting orthe temperature or if there is a
window, like just thinkingabout those things and asking
(21:09):
what people's preferences are,and I think, unfortunately, like
a lot of experience.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
People experience trauma and it is um
significantly associated withother mental health issues and
substance abuse how do you lookafter yourself in you know, some
of the work that you do, whichyou know no doubt has its
moments of heaviness?
Speaker 1 (21:31):
yeah, I'm actually like a massive advocate for
clinical supervision, so that'sdefinitely something that I get
regularly.
I do that with people, um, thatobviously I feel comfortable
with and, um, I've got atrusting relationship with
because that's important as well, and I think going out and just
(21:52):
being mindful of you know howyou're feeling after the day.
You know I take a lot of timewith friends.
I've got my family and that'sprobably the key things that I
do.
To be honest, I think doing thework I do it just makes me so
grateful for what I have andwhere I'm at in life and how
(22:14):
things have turned out for me,and I feel very privileged.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Yeah, yeah, we've really got to be grateful in
many ways because I guess mentalhealth is something that can
strike at any time.
Well, actually I want torephrase that, because that's
something I wanted to talkthrough with you the term mental
health.
We've all got mental healthright, so it's not mental health
is not a negative or a positive, it's mental health is just, is
(22:41):
right.
Yeah, so how do you describe?
Is it poor mental health?
Is it mental health illness?
Is it mental health wellbeing?
At the other end, what is theterminology?
How do you refer to it?
Speaker 1 (22:54):
I think it depends on the situation that I'm in and
I'd probably.
Obviously I work for a mentalhealth service and I've worked
for mental health services inthe past, but I don't think I
actually use the term if thatmakes sense.
Like I try and listen to whatthe person says is going on for
them, how they identify of, howthey talk about what's going on
(23:17):
for them.
But also what I like to hold onto is the fact that there's a
person there.
They're not anorexia, they'renot depression, they're not
those things.
They're just experiencing thosethings.
And you're right, like mentalhealth.
Everybody has mental health andit could be good.
It could be that you'restruggling and it's not so good,
(23:38):
but I think it's morepersonalised.
I think we just get caught upon the terminology, but I
definitely go for what thepatients identify with, if that
makes sense.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Oh, it makes perfect sense, absolutely identify with.
If that makes sense, oh, itmakes perfect sense Absolutely.
And what about, I guess,medication and helping the, I
guess, the neurochemistry orneuro biochemistry of the brain.
Can you tell us a bit moreabout what goes on in the brain
with all the different hormonesand I don't know what are they
(24:11):
called Chemistry, brainchemistry?
Is that something that youfocus in on?
Speaker 1 (24:15):
um, yeah, and I think you know, medication definitely
has its place.
I think, um, I used to workwith a psychiatrist and every
assessment that we did together,he always used to say, um, that
medication was like 30 of it,it, therapy was 30% of it and
then 40% of it was what happensoutside of that, and I think
(24:37):
that's really true.
I think for some people, theyneed the medication.
Their chemical imbalance orwhatever's happening in that
person's brain, they can't dowithout it.
Some people need it for aperiod of time and then they can
come off it without it.
Some people need it for aperiod of time and then they can
come off it, and then you know,it's different for everybody.
Um, and I think understandingthe brain obviously is a is a
(24:58):
complex thing yeah, it is um,and the more you know, the less
you know.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
I think the brain is out there, yeah, yeah so yeah,
and I think people responddifferently.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
I think what I hear a lot is I feel like sometimes,
when people are doing therapy,it's like if things aren't
changing, then oh you need, weneed to think about medication.
Or if it's medication andthat's not working, it's
thinking about therapy, um, andit's that balance between if the
person is mentally unwell orstruggling or not coping, what?
(25:36):
Like thinking about theircapacity to be making decisions
or where they're at in theirjourney, um, but also not trying
to force things on people orpush things and rolling with
that.
Where they're at is where itdefinitely is.
Well, in my, in privatepractice, I feel like that's
(25:57):
definitely the case.
Like you can, I can talk tosomebody, do an assessment,
think about all the elements,think about what's been helpful
for them before and reallylisten to where they're at, um,
yeah, and what they're open to,because if people have had
negative experiences withmedication, they might not be
willing to even think about itas an option.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
So, yeah, how can we?
I guess and I don't know, thatyou'll have an answer to this,
but maybe you do, I hope youwill how can we best support
someone who's going through somesort of mental health illness?
What's the best thing thatparents or family members,
friends, can do to support thatperson?
Speaker 1 (26:39):
I think for me, being curious, being genuinely
interested in where people areat, I always think this one are
you okay?
Day comes round, it's all rightasking are you okay?
But just that genuineness,because people, humans, we know
when people aren't genuine andwe know when people are not
(27:00):
interested really or they've gotother things going on the mind.
Not that we're not interestedreally, but if you're distracted
and you've got other stuffgoing on.
But just yeah, being genuine,checking in with people and just
thinking about how you would,how I this is my mum coming back
out now and my corvallis, welove your mum but thinking about
if you yourself were struggling, how would you want someone to
(27:23):
approach you?
What would you want somebody toask?
What would you want?
How would you want somebody torespond?
And obviously that's differentfor everybody and not
everybody's going to be the same, but I think we have some
common like common things thatwe would want and just if you're
going to ask somebody, then youwant to be listened to, I
imagine yeah, and I wonder alsothat persistence as well,
(27:46):
because, um, sometimes the firsttime you're asked you go, oh,
you know, fine, fine, fine, butyou know it's the third or
fourth ask.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Just checking in again.
Are you sure you're asked yougo?
Oh, you know, fine, fine, fine,but you know it's the third or
fourth ask, just checking inagain.
Are you sure you're okay?
You know the curiosity and thecompassion, and I guess that all
takes time, doesn't it?
You know it's taking the time totreat other people with respect
, and you know humanistic, whichis a word that you use, that
your approach is humanistic,which is a beautiful term.
(28:13):
Tell me more about mentalhealth and some of the other
things that you're seeing.
So obviously, eating disordersis an area of specialty for you,
but can we talk about anxietyand depression?
I?
Speaker 1 (28:23):
feel like anxiety and depression.
So not to bring it back toeating disorders, I know we will
move away from that, but I feellike a lot of mental health
issues co-occur alongside eachother or intertwine with each
other.
So a lot of what I see as wellis emotional dysregulation and
(28:48):
along with that, I think if aperson is struggling to function
within the social norms or ismore emotionally expressive than
what society expects, theyoften do feel depressed because,
again going back to the shouldbe or there shouldn't be, I
think we're, as a society, we'requite perfectionistic anyway.
(29:09):
So the person that does well,that doesn't create a force that
achieves um and ticks all ofthe boxes per se um yeah, is
really accepted by society andit's what everybody's aspiring
to be.
So when you don't fit that norm,you feel displaced and like you
(29:30):
don't belong, and then thatfuels anxiety.
So you might be anxious aboutwhether it's going to school or
work because you don't fit in oryou don't fit those criteria,
um, and then obviously, if youbecome isolated, then that can
lead to depression as well.
So I feel like they allintertwine with each other.
(29:51):
Obviously, I do see people thatjust have anxiety or do just
have depression, but there'snormally interlinks between them
.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
What do you see as the panacea for all of this?
Is there something that, if youcould wave your magic wand?
Nicola.
I'm going to give you a magicwand and you're going to wave it
.
What would you change?
What would you do with that?
Speaker 1 (30:21):
That is such a good question.
I think immediately what comesto mind is just better access to
care.
But I feel like, um, obviouslythat comes with funding and all
of those things.
Um, obviously, if I was likevery godmother then I'd get rid
(30:42):
of people's issues yeah takeaway trauma, take away all of
those things and just make it sothat everybody could cope
healthily and there wasn't anyissues.
Tick those society norm boxes?
No, I wouldn't want that really.
Yeah, that is a hard question.
I think, yeah, more access toservices, more variety in who is
(31:11):
offering those services, and Idon't feel like there's any
individualised care.
I think that's what's a bigthing that's missing.
I think, obviously, withinsystems, we have to do what
we're funded to do or what theservice is funded to do, but I
just don't feel I feel like thatindividual care is what's
missing.
(31:31):
And that's what I love aboutprivate practice is that, like I
was saying before, I get toreally think about what's going
to work for that person, how Ican work with them, pull from my
different experience and makethat tailored to them.
And it's hard because you know,as a government they can only
give so much funding.
But it's like mental healthcare plans.
(31:54):
I think there's six sessionsnow and you're like, yeah, six
sessions, but if somebody's gotcomplex issues or this has been
going on for a long time, or ifthey need more, there's no
flexibility within that.
And same, at least, with theeating, eating disorder plan.
That's much longer and peoplecan get more sessions.
(32:16):
And if I could, actually if Icould wave my magic wand, I
would make it say that mentalhealth nurses were included in
more medicare rebates as well ah, so at the moment they're not
no no, so as a credentialedmental health nurse, I can only
offer people Medicare rebates ifthey've got a chronic disease
plan, and I'm not eligible to dothat on any of the other plans
(32:41):
Interesting because, you know,we've got this.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
we're crying out for more mental health practitioners
, and here we've got thiswonderful resource of mental
health nurse that we're not, youknow, using to the fullest
potential, I guess.
But aside from that, what Iunderstand, nicola, though, is
that your private services canbe easily accessed without
referrals and no wait lists.
(33:05):
Yeah, yeah, interesting.
What do you get the most joyfrom?
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Seeing people building that relationship with
people and then seeing that,seeing that relationship grow
and also just teaching peoplenew things that they didn't know
that they could do and seeingthem doing it, seeing them
succeed.
And don't get me wrong,obviously it doesn't always go
that smoothly or it's not asmooth path to that sometimes.
But even with just beingalongside that person, with the
(33:39):
lows, the highs and the bumpsand all of that, it's just such
a privilege for me to be able todo that with somebody and it's
just yeah, it just brings me alot of joy.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
That's a beautiful thing.
I want to understand also thisidea of hope, because that's one
of the themes of our warm tablethis season, and I do want to
understand what hope means toyou personally and
professionally.
But also, how do you work withpeople during a time when they
(34:14):
feel as though they haveabsolutely no hope or very
little hope in their mentalstate?
So how do you help them rebuildthat hope, because it's just
such an important part of thehealing journey.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
But you just can't magic it up.
If only, if only you could givethat as a tablet, a hope tablet
.
Um, but how do you, how do youwork with people when they, when
they have no hope?
Speaker 1 (34:42):
I think for me personally, I hold the hope from
the beginning, like to me, likeI've worked in so many places
in so many different areas andwith you know clients that have
had multiple admissions and arelabeled that complex client and
feel like they're never going toget better or they feel like
(35:03):
they've tried a lot of things.
So I personally hold the hopefrom the beginning for the
client.
Whether they see it or not, orwhether we talk about that from
the beginning or not, I alwayshold that hope for them.
Because I always think whenpeople are presenting to you for
help, every presentation is anew time.
It doesn't matter what'shappened before, it doesn't
(35:23):
matter what they were likebefore.
At that point in time they'rewanting help, help.
So that gives me hope.
Does that make sense?
So, yeah, and so holding thatfrom the beginning.
And then, when that therapeuticrelationship builds, obviously
you get to know the person more.
You get to know what theirstrengths are, um, and where
(35:44):
they've been in the past andwhere they're at now, and then
you can reflect on that withthem and reflect on their
experiences and you know youdrop those installs of hope
along the way.
They might not realize it'shope or that sounds like a weird
thing to say, but they mightnot realize that it's hope at
(36:04):
the time, but I think it'salways in my mind and then when
they're in a place where theyfeel like they can be hopeful
because obviously what youwouldn't want it to come across
as a person's at the worstmoment in their life and you're
like, don't worry, it changesjust around the corner.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
I've seen so many people in the same situation.
They've come out of it, so youwill too.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
So yeah, it's not any conversation like that with a
client at all.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
No, you don't go in there like Pollyanna or anything
like that.
No, but it is.
It's holding that, I guess, thequiet hope inside you, knowing
that there's tools andstrategies and a different
moment in time.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
And a big actually change I feel like in the
workspace is peer supportworkers that obviously have that
lived experience and are ontheir recovery journey and have
recovered and are coming intowork with the space and can
offer that support to people aswell and, I think, working
alongside those people, becauseI think if you work in the same
(37:08):
area all the time and you'reseeing the same things, it's
easy to get pretty jaded or feellike nobody's making any change
.
But I think what we forget tothink about in the moments are
the people that we don't seecoming back when we're in
certain areas.
And then, yeah, some of thepeer workers that I've worked
with, just talking to them abouttheir experience of recovery
(37:31):
and all the people that theyknow have recovered, Like it's
eye-opening and you just think,yeah, actually it's really
positive.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
And that's a really nice thing to hear, because we
don't hear that often, I know.
No, we often hear about themental health crisis that we're
in, which there's no questionthat you know there is a mental
health crisis.
There's no question that mentalhealth is directly correlated
with many things that are goingon in society that give
(37:59):
everybody some real unease, butthere are stories of people
who've recovered and who thencan go on to support others too.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Yeah, and I think when people have that
understanding, or you movearound and you do different
things, you really actually openyour eyes to that.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
And would you say that pretty much everyone is
touched by mental health in someway?
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely, and I think, even if
you're a person that doesn'thave a history in your family or
nothing bad has ever happenedwhich I don't know I never, ever
actually met anybody in mypersonal life or my work life
that that's happened for, butmaybe those people exist it
doesn't mean to say that youknow an adverse event isn't
(38:49):
going to happen to you thatcould significantly impact the
way that you're coping.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
Can you talk me through some of that, and I
guess it's a magic question here.
This is a million dollarquestion.
What are some of the triggersfor mental health episodes to
happen?
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Loss and grief is a big one.
You know, relationship issuesor interpersonal difficulties,
um, the loss of a relationshipsometimes is a tipping point
point for people and sometimes Ithink, if things happen one
after the other and peoplearen't expecting those things or
(39:28):
they're in a vulnerable placeand then something else happens,
it can be really hard to thenkeep going and to keep on top of
that.
Um, obviously, for a lot ofpeople that I see, it's
childhood stuff or it's stuffthat's happened in their
childhood.
That's a trauma, yeah, and then, like I said, that tipping
(39:48):
point seems to be withadolescence, in that change in
hormones, the change in highschool, that transition.
I think it's a vulnerable partsof people's lives.
That's probably the best way toexplain it actually and that
makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
You know, when you're at your most vulnerable, you
let things in.
Yeah, so, coming back to hope,what brings you hope personally?
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Like the work that I do and the work that I see
happening, the people that Iwork with.
Like I work with someincredible clinicians, doctors,
nurses, psychologists, the youngpeople that I work with.
That makes me feel hope.
My personal life outside of allof that, that makes me feel
hope.
My personal life outside of allof that.
Like my family, obviously I'vementioned my mum a couple of
(40:35):
times.
She's a beacon of hope to meand she's had her own challenges
throughout her life andobviously witnessed some of
those.
And hope to me is never losingsight of the fact that things
happen in moments and it's notalways going to be that way.
(41:00):
And I say that from a place ofprivilege and not feeling
vulnerable right now.
But, yeah, just knowing thattime doesn't stand still, our
emotions don't stand still, thatkind of philosophy.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Nicola, thank you so much for joining me around the
warm table.
It's been a wonderful, I think,a wonderful conversation where
I've learned a lot and also, youknow, hopefully reassuring for
a lot of people regarding mentalhealth, regarding some of the
societal norms that are, youknow, unachievable and that are
(41:37):
fuelling some of our mentalhealth issues, and maybe we can,
you know, sort of recreate thenorm for what society has.
I think maybe that's what I'ddo with a magic wand is recreate
the norm so that every one ofus feels welcome and included in
a society where, you know,we'll have less mental health
(41:57):
and mental stress.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
Yeah.
No, thank you so much forhaving me.
It's been really good.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
Hi, I'm Kelly Riley, creator and head coach of
Females Over 45 Fitness, or FOFas we are fondly called.
Our studio is located inVictoria Park and we are also
online all across Australia.
At FOF, our members range inage from 45 through to 84 years
of age at the moment.
They're amazing examples ofhope.
(42:28):
Let's meet one of our membersnow and be inspired by her story
examples of hope.
Speaker 4 (42:36):
Let's meet one of our members now and be inspired by
her story.
Hi, my name is Jade, I'm in myearly 50s and I work as a Senior
Process Designer Administratorfor an information and data
management company.
The last fitness centre Iattended lacked energy and after
giving FOF a go I realised ithad great energy, so I decided
to join.
I train for three hours a weekover three days at FOF.
I enjoy the workouts, as themusic is loud, the atmosphere is
good and it's great to have alaugh with like-minded women.
(42:58):
There is also flexibility inthe class timetable, which is a
great bonus.
Hope for me means that I live along, happy, healthy life,
enjoying everything that comesmy way.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Thanks for joining us around the warm table.
My warm table is produced,hosted and edited by me, sonia
Nolan.
It's my way of amplifyingpositivity and curiosity in our
community.
I invite you to share thisconversation with family and
friends and follow my warm tablepodcast on Facebook, instagram
and LinkedIn.
Also, you can subscribe andfollow my Warm Table on Spotify
(43:33):
or Apple Podcasts, and maybeeven leave a review, because it
helps others to find us moreeasily.
for me personally, I hold the hope from the beginning
, like to me, like I've workedin so many places, in so many
different areas and with youknow, clients that have had
multiple admissions and arelabeled that complex client and
feel like they're never going toget better or they feel like
they've tried a lot of things.
(00:25):
So I personally hold the hopefrom the beginning for the
client.
Whether they see it or not, orwhether we talk about that from
the beginning or not, I alwayshold that hope for them.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Thanks for joining me , sonia Nolan, around the warm
table, or the double a calda asmy Italian papa used to call a
welcoming table of acceptance,positivity and curiosity.
My Warm Table podcast aims tocreate that and more, as we
amplify stories of WesternAustralians making our
communities better.
My Warm Table Season 3 is proudto be sponsored by Females Over
(01:03):
45 Fitness, with a studio inVictoria Park and also online
all over Australia.
So now please take a seat andjoin us for Season 3 as we
explore stories of hope.
Mental health is a growingconcern in our community.
Mental disorders affect two infive people in Australia, so
(01:24):
it's very likely that you orsomeone you know will have
experienced challenges withmental health.
Around the warm table today,I'm delighted to welcome Nicola
Cooper, a credentialed mentalhealth nurse and nurse therapist
who's been working in the fieldfor 10 years, guiding clients
towards hope and healing intheir mental health journeys.
(01:44):
Nicola trained in the UK andholds mental health nursing and
postgraduate mental healthqualifications.
Her work in the area of eatingdisorders came with a huge
flourish of recommendation to mefrom a warm table listener who
believes Nicola is among thebest in her field and we are so
lucky to have her here in WA.
(02:05):
Nicola predominantly works withadolescents and adults.
Her special interests areworking with people who
experience eating disorders suchas anorexia nervosa, bulimia
nervosa, binge eating disorderand body image concerns.
She also works with peopleexperiencing perinatal mental
health concerns and personalitydisorders and emotional
(02:26):
dysregulation.
She's experienced in workingwith clients who have low mood,
depression, anxiety, stress, lowself-esteem and perfectionism.
I look forward to understandingthese issues and more as we
chat with Nicola around the warmtable today.
Join us, nicola.
(02:48):
Thank you so much for joiningme around the warm table.
Thank you for having me.
Oh, it's going to be a reallyimportant conversation I think
we're going to have today,because we're talking about
mental health and you are amental health nurse and also a
nurse therapist, so let's startby understanding exactly what a
nurse therapist is that's areally good question.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Um, well, I suppose for me, because I trained in the
uk, um, my degree is in mentalhealth nursing, so from the
beginning we, um I'll talk, talk, therapeutic techniques, we do
clinical supervision, um all ofthose things that you expect
when you're a mental healthclinician.
So it's been hard to explain inAustralia because the training
(03:33):
is very different.
So how I think about it is it'sa bit similar to like a social
work therapist or anoccupational therapist doing
therapy, not just the elementsof their discipline, if that
makes sense.
So, yeah, to me it means that Ihave done that mental health
(03:55):
training.
So cognitive behavioral therapywas embedded into our training,
and what I mean by that is thatit was a therapy that we were
taught about from the beginning,and that means a therapy that
looks at people's.
In basic terms, it looks atpeople's thoughts, feelings and
behaviours, tracking those,thinking about those, what are
(04:19):
the links, what are the patterns, and then how we maybe change
some of those patterns,depending on whether it's
focusing on the thoughts, andthen that changes the way people
feel and then behave, and thenvice versa.
It looks like doing behavioralexperiments, um, thinking about
emotions and what comes up forpeople and what are the triggers
(04:39):
for those and how it intersectswith the other two, and I just
had a real passion for holisticcare.
So I feel like, from my nursingperspective, I have that
understanding of physical healthissues and how that might
impact mental health and howmental health might impact
physical health as well, andthen also keen to work with
people therapeutically throughthose issues and try and give
(05:03):
them strategies to cope better,to make improvements to their
lives.
And at the point where they'rewilling to do that, and I feel
like, from a nursing perspectiveagain, like there's many points
that we can often have contactwith clients and different ways
of building that therapeuticrapport and that relationship
with them and the trust that youreally need to be able to do
(05:23):
therapy therapeutic rapport andthat relationship with them and
the trust that you really needto be able to do therapy so with
your training.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
tell me about the area that you specifically focus
in on with your mental healthpractice.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
So currently a lot of my work is with people with
eating disorders and people withemotional regulation issues and
I would say probably depressionand anxiety and some of the
things that go along with thosediagnoses.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah, and what about then the mental health as it's
changed over the last, I guess,10 years or so that you've been
in this space?
How have you seen, or have youseen, a difference in the way
mental health is talked about ormental health issues?
Presenting what's been yourexperience?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
I think overall, I think awareness is always
increasing.
I think we're always talkingabout more things.
I just I sometimes wonder howthose things come up or when
they come up, because it seemsto be.
We're a bit, I think, as humansin nature we're a bit reactive,
so when there seems to be a lotof something, then everybody's
(06:34):
talking about it and then itdrops off again and then.
But I think generally it'sbeing more talked about.
I think during COVID Covid, Ithink everybody experienced a
lot more mental health stressthan we'd ever experienced
before and I think that's seen alot of increase in
presentations.
There's been a lot more demandand I think it's really tested
(06:56):
people's ability to cope.
Um, and specifically in thearea that I work it's there work
we've noticed a significantincrease in people presenting
with eating disorders.
I don't have the exactstatistics for that and I think
in general there was just notedthat there was more drug and
alcohol presentations and therewas more youth presentations of
(07:20):
people that were struggling overthat time.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Do we still have that COVID lag Like?
Are we still suffering from theeffects of COVID now, or do you
think we've sort of come overthat hump and we're in a new
phase?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
I don't know that we've fully come over it now,
because I think the way like theeating disorder presentations
definitely obviously that's whatI'm more involved with, but it
doesn't seem to be like reducing, um, and I think some of that
is definitely COVID.
But I think, as well you know,there's lots of theories about
(07:55):
why that might be increasing ingeneral, with younger people
having access to social mediaand all of those kind of things,
and I think maybe, um, yeah,but I think young people in
general, like youthpresentations, and mental health
has gone up.
What's your?
Speaker 2 (08:11):
theory or hypothesis in that um, I think there's a.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
I'm probably going to sound really old when I say
you're in good company but Ijust think there's different
pressures on young people today.
I think they have so much accessto so much information that we
didn't have not having theinternet when we were growing up
.
Um, I don't think.
I think if you were bullied atschool when you were at school,
(08:40):
when you got home, at leastthere was reprieve.
I don't think there's that foryoung people.
Um, and people, yeah, just notgetting any break from any of
the pressure, you know, ifthey're looking on their phone
and they're feeling bad aboutthemselves, and then there's a
million adverts that aretargeted at people to make them
(09:00):
feel worse about themselves, andit's just, it's a bit of a
vicious cycle, I think.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Yeah, so do you recommend digital detox for
people?
Is that something that you werean advocate for?
Speaker 1 (09:12):
I'm more of an advocate, I think, for reporting
offensive things.
So, obviously, doing a lot ofthe work that I do personally,
like when I've been to trainingsand talked to people and
actually just examined some ofmy own stuff, like my own
Instagram reel and what doesthat look like and you know,
(09:33):
just like I don't know ifeverybody gets this or maybe it
was just on my phone, but, um, Iwas getting a lot of.
You know, summer bodies aremade in winter.
Um, do this 12 week juice dietor whatever it is like it's.
I feel like it's pushed on us,so much.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
It's so cleverly targeted through their
advertising strategies and thealgorithms, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (09:55):
yeah, yeah so I just made more of a conscious effort
just to report it toinstagrammers irrelevant or
offensive and not wanting to seeit.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Yeah, because you can go into that three little dots
or whatever in every reel or onall social media and actually
report things or say you want tosee less of, and so being
really active in that space isgood for our mental health.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Yeah, and I think, just as a community, if people
are doing that more and we'requestioning why we're seeing
these things.
I think that's what I talk toyoung people about If they're
caught up in looking at thosethings or getting caught up in
the messages, really trying todrill down what is that person
wanting in that advert?
And a lot of the time it's yourmoney, like it's not about your
(10:41):
mental health.
No, it's a transaction, isn'tit?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Yeah, and money, like .
It's not about your mentalhealth, no, it's a transaction,
isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, and it's verysimilar to sitting on your email
and unsubscribing to everythingthat you don't need to be
getting through your email aswell.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
So it is, it's actually being um very proactive
in what is presented to youyeah, yeah and like obviously
tiktok is a is a big platformwith young people, but you can
do similar things on tiktok aswell, to say that you don't want
to see stuff or it's irrelevant, and I think it's more
educating people about whythey're stuck in that or why
(11:14):
they're getting caught down arabbit hole, rather than trying
to detox from it, if that makessense yeah, I guess it's a more,
um, proactive and realisticapproach, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
because, fine, you can come off it for a more
proactive and realistic approach, isn't it?
Because, fine, you can come offit for a little while, but then
you're back on it and you'represented with the same things,
whereas if you change thelandscape, it's more powerful.
Yeah, great advice,particularly, and the key focus
of your mental health trainingand your key focus in your
(11:48):
mental health work is in eatingdisorders.
Yeah, so there are a wide rangeof eating disorders, though,
aren't there?
So it's not just.
I mean, what comes to mindimmediately for me is anorexia
nervosa.
That's, I guess, the one thatmaybe gets the most publicity,
and maybe people have beentouched by that in some way with
a family member or friend.
But there are other eatingdisorders too, aren't there?
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, and I think you're not alone there.
I think when people think ofeating disorders, they typically
think of anorexia, but yeah,there's bulimia nervosa as well
and binge eating disorder, andbinge eating disorder is
actually probably one of themost prominent ones.
How does that present?
So binge eating disorder issomebody that has periods of
(12:32):
sorry episodes of binge eating.
So that happens several times aweek and then they experience
significant guilt around thatafter and shame.
Then they experiencesignificant guilt around that
after and shame, um, and thenwill maybe try, and they often.
There's often strict rules thatthey try to follow so that
(12:53):
mentality of I'll be bettertomorrow and then they might try
and restrict because they'vebinged eat the night before and
then obviously then they'rehungry and then that drives the
binging behavior.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
It's really complex, isn't it?
Because you know, I think thatwe have, because of popular
culture, we have a really poorrelationship with what healthy
eating actually looks like.
Yeah, is that a fair assumption?
Fair thing to say.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
I think so definitely , and I think in this space as
well, and in the eating disorderspace, we see so many, I see so
many families and so many youngpeople and adults with very
strict views about what ishealthy and what isn't healthy,
and what we should be eating andwhat we should be avoiding, and
(13:43):
I think all of the mixedmessages really plays out in the
people that you see and,depending on what they've been
exposed to or what they've triedor what their family's view of
that is, yeah, it's even verydifferent for the families that
we see.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, I can imagine, because you know we're just
surrounded by so many you knowsort of dietitian experts on
social media and friends andeveryone in some sort of diet
phase or craze.
It just seems this constant youshould be keto, you should be
paleo, you should be eating moreprotein, you should be no carbs
.
There's so much that's beenthrown at us and yet moderation
(14:23):
is very rarely talked about.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Everything in moderation.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Yeah, definitely yeah .
So with your work in the eatingdisorder area, tell me more
about that.
Tell me about what you'reseeing in young people in this
area.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Just that it starts very early, I think, um a
puberty.
It seems to be um a significanttime for people, I think, going
through those body changes andalso normally that coincides
with people starting high school.
Um, and it's just a reallyvulnerable time, I think, for
(15:02):
the brain obviously, inparticular with all the changes
that it goes through at that ageand also that transition from
primary to high school, thedifferent expectations in
education wise, friend, wise,you might be changing schools.
There's a lot going on and,yeah, those body ideals that, um
, a lot of young people areaspiring to be like and
(15:23):
obviously that changes, I think,with the trends at the time
ideals that aren't achievablefor people and seeing that all
the time.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Yeah, it's hard, yeah it is.
And are there any indicatorsthat parents could be looking
out for that?
You know unhealthy thinking oryou know sort of those
indicators that might mean that,down the track, we could be
presenting with, you knowunhealthy thinking or you know
sort of those indicators thatmight mean that, down the track,
we could be presenting with,you know, an eating disorder?
Is there anything that parentsshould be looking for?
Speaker 1 (15:52):
I really wish there was that five steps that you
could do or five things tomonitor, but I just I feel like
there's that fine line betweenliving normal life and being
over our teenagers and kids andthat helicopter parenting and
worrying about every singlething that they're doing.
(16:12):
I think, honing into whatyou're worried about and what's
causing that worry and what'scausing that worry, and, if
you're, I think that actuallythe biggest thing is to notice
any changes, like just bemindful of changes that are
happening with young people,Because I think when people look
(16:33):
back or in hindsight becausehindsight's a beautiful thing,
it's a wonderful- thing, yeah,it's the best thing.
Yeah, they'll say things likeyou know, we noticed that she
was in a room a lot more, or shestarted running three times a
week, or he started not comingdown for dinner he didn't want
to eat with us, or, you know, hewas not going to football or he
(16:57):
wasn't going with his friendsas much anymore.
So, and like I said, there's noway to explore that and I know
sometimes teenagers are notwanting to talk to their parents
, but being curious wherepossible, and if you do get shot
down, just go back to themlater and ask them again and try
and gently express why you'reconcerned, just trying to be
(17:19):
mindful, I suppose.
But I don't.
I feel, yeah, it's hard forparents to spot because it's a,
it's a type of well.
With any mental health illness,I think, or issue, obviously
there's a lot of shame that'sassociated with most of it.
So it's often quite secret, um,and the person feels that shame
and embarrassment and doesn'twant to talk about it.
(17:41):
So the illness actually getsreally good at, you know,
keeping those things hidden.
So it's hard.
It's a hard question to answer.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
It's a hard issue to deal with, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
So in your work, nicola, I knowthat one of the things that
you're really passionate aboutis building that rapport and you
know, through empathy andthrough compassion and really
good listening, which I dare sayis part of your nursing
background, as well, and youknow the importance of building
(18:14):
that relationship with yourpatients so that they can feel
they're in a really safe spaceto talk to you about these
things.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
I think my mum, when I wasgrowing up, worked in aged care
and I'll never, ever forget hersaying this, but she always used
to say that she always treatedpeople how she would want her
family to be treated and it waslike her core belief at work and
(18:42):
it was always what she saidabout everything, Whether you
were with friends or at work orgoing into a working career.
That was her advice and that'ssomething that I hold very close
to my heart and I think, yeah,that's always at the front of my
mind when I meet a person and I, yeah, when that rapport
(19:03):
building it's about meeting theperson where they're at,
thinking about how they've putwhere they're presenting.
What does that look like?
What do I know about the person?
How can I make them feelcomfortable in the moment,
thinking about the environment,all of those things?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yeah, and that's just so incredibly important to all
your patients and just abeautiful place to start, isn't
it?
You know to build that trustand compassion.
Yeah, one of the other thingsthat I understand you use in
your work is trauma-informedapproaches.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Tell me about trauma, yeah, I suppose I just I was
thinking that when you, when Iwas talking, I was listing some
of those things.
But yeah, trauma-informed careto me is having an understanding
that people go through thingsthat are difficult and that
(19:57):
could mean different things toeverybody.
So I think the basis of it forme is not making an assumption,
coming into things openly,trying to ask people, maybe
beforehand, before they come andsee me.
Is there anything that's beendifficult about seeing people
before?
Um, you know, is there anythingin the room that we can bring
(20:18):
in that might make you feel morecomfortable thinking about
those things, like in theenvironment?
What can I do?
Um, what hasn't been helpfulbefore?
Speaker 2 (20:27):
what kind of things might people ask to say that
would make me feel better if youhad that in the room?
Is there anything specific?
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Just that.
Everybody's different.
So sometimes people, I alwayshave like fidget toys in the
room.
Anyway, I've always got pensand paper.
Do you have a weighted?
Speaker 2 (20:45):
blanket.
I've heard that's really good.
I don't actually.
But yeah, people in differentwork settings I have had that,
but not at my office at themoment.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
No, we don't actually but yeah, people in different
work settings I have had that,but not at my office at the
moment?
No, we don't have that um.
So yeah, comforting things, thethings that you and also like
thinking about the lighting orthe temperature or if there is a
window, like just thinkingabout those things and asking
(21:09):
what people's preferences are,and I think, unfortunately, like
a lot of experience.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
People experience trauma and it is um
significantly associated withother mental health issues and
substance abuse how do you lookafter yourself in you know, some
of the work that you do, whichyou know no doubt has its
moments of heaviness?
Speaker 1 (21:31):
yeah, I'm actually like a massive advocate for
clinical supervision, so that'sdefinitely something that I get
regularly.
I do that with people, um, thatobviously I feel comfortable
with and, um, I've got atrusting relationship with
because that's important as well, and I think going out and just
(21:52):
being mindful of you know howyou're feeling after the day.
You know I take a lot of timewith friends.
I've got my family and that'sprobably the key things that I
do.
To be honest, I think doing thework I do it just makes me so
grateful for what I have andwhere I'm at in life and how
(22:14):
things have turned out for me,and I feel very privileged.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Yeah, yeah, we've really got to be grateful in
many ways because I guess mentalhealth is something that can
strike at any time.
Well, actually I want torephrase that, because that's
something I wanted to talkthrough with you the term mental
health.
We've all got mental healthright, so it's not mental health
is not a negative or a positive, it's mental health is just, is
(22:41):
right.
Yeah, so how do you describe?
Is it poor mental health?
Is it mental health illness?
Is it mental health wellbeing?
At the other end, what is theterminology?
How do you refer to it?
Speaker 1 (22:54):
I think it depends on the situation that I'm in and
I'd probably.
Obviously I work for a mentalhealth service and I've worked
for mental health services inthe past, but I don't think I
actually use the term if thatmakes sense.
Like I try and listen to whatthe person says is going on for
them, how they identify of, howthey talk about what's going on
(23:17):
for them.
But also what I like to hold onto is the fact that there's a
person there.
They're not anorexia, they'renot depression, they're not
those things.
They're just experiencing thosethings.
And you're right, like mentalhealth.
Everybody has mental health andit could be good.
It could be that you'restruggling and it's not so good,
(23:38):
but I think it's morepersonalised.
I think we just get caught upon the terminology, but I
definitely go for what thepatients identify with, if that
makes sense.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Oh, it makes perfect sense, absolutely identify with.
If that makes sense, oh, itmakes perfect sense Absolutely.
And what about, I guess,medication and helping the, I
guess, the neurochemistry orneuro biochemistry of the brain.
Can you tell us a bit moreabout what goes on in the brain
with all the different hormonesand I don't know what are they
(24:11):
called Chemistry, brainchemistry?
Is that something that youfocus in on?
Speaker 1 (24:15):
um, yeah, and I think you know, medication definitely
has its place.
I think, um, I used to workwith a psychiatrist and every
assessment that we did together,he always used to say, um, that
medication was like 30 of it,it, therapy was 30% of it and
then 40% of it was what happensoutside of that, and I think
(24:37):
that's really true.
I think for some people, theyneed the medication.
Their chemical imbalance orwhatever's happening in that
person's brain, they can't dowithout it.
Some people need it for aperiod of time and then they can
come off it without it.
Some people need it for aperiod of time and then they can
come off it, and then you know,it's different for everybody.
Um, and I think understandingthe brain obviously is a is a
(24:58):
complex thing yeah, it is um,and the more you know, the less
you know.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
I think the brain is out there, yeah, yeah so yeah,
and I think people responddifferently.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
I think what I hear a lot is I feel like sometimes,
when people are doing therapy,it's like if things aren't
changing, then oh you need, weneed to think about medication.
Or if it's medication andthat's not working, it's
thinking about therapy, um, andit's that balance between if the
person is mentally unwell orstruggling or not coping, what?
(25:36):
Like thinking about theircapacity to be making decisions
or where they're at in theirjourney, um, but also not trying
to force things on people orpush things and rolling with
that.
Where they're at is where itdefinitely is.
Well, in my, in privatepractice, I feel like that's
(25:57):
definitely the case.
Like you can, I can talk tosomebody, do an assessment,
think about all the elements,think about what's been helpful
for them before and reallylisten to where they're at, um,
yeah, and what they're open to,because if people have had
negative experiences withmedication, they might not be
willing to even think about itas an option.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
So, yeah, how can we?
I guess and I don't know, thatyou'll have an answer to this,
but maybe you do, I hope youwill how can we best support
someone who's going through somesort of mental health illness?
What's the best thing thatparents or family members,
friends, can do to support thatperson?
Speaker 1 (26:39):
I think for me, being curious, being genuinely
interested in where people areat, I always think this one are
you okay?
Day comes round, it's all rightasking are you okay?
But just that genuineness,because people, humans, we know
when people aren't genuine andwe know when people are not
(27:00):
interested really or they've gotother things going on the mind.
Not that we're not interestedreally, but if you're distracted
and you've got other stuffgoing on.
But just yeah, being genuine,checking in with people and just
thinking about how you would,how I this is my mum coming back
out now and my corvallis, welove your mum but thinking about
if you yourself were struggling, how would you want someone to
(27:23):
approach you?
What would you want somebody toask?
What would you want?
How would you want somebody torespond?
And obviously that's differentfor everybody and not
everybody's going to be the same, but I think we have some
common like common things thatwe would want and just if you're
going to ask somebody, then youwant to be listened to, I
imagine yeah, and I wonder alsothat persistence as well,
(27:46):
because, um, sometimes the firsttime you're asked you go, oh,
you know, fine, fine, fine, butyou know it's the third or
fourth ask.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Just checking in again.
Are you sure you're asked yougo?
Oh, you know, fine, fine, fine,but you know it's the third or
fourth ask, just checking inagain.
Are you sure you're okay?
You know the curiosity and thecompassion, and I guess that all
takes time, doesn't it?
You know it's taking the time totreat other people with respect
, and you know humanistic, whichis a word that you use, that
your approach is humanistic,which is a beautiful term.
(28:13):
Tell me more about mentalhealth and some of the other
things that you're seeing.
So obviously, eating disordersis an area of specialty for you,
but can we talk about anxietyand depression?
I?
Speaker 1 (28:23):
feel like anxiety and depression.
So not to bring it back toeating disorders, I know we will
move away from that, but I feellike a lot of mental health
issues co-occur alongside eachother or intertwine with each
other.
So a lot of what I see as wellis emotional dysregulation and
(28:48):
along with that, I think if aperson is struggling to function
within the social norms or ismore emotionally expressive than
what society expects, theyoften do feel depressed because,
again going back to the shouldbe or there shouldn't be, I
think we're, as a society, we'requite perfectionistic anyway.
(29:09):
So the person that does well,that doesn't create a force that
achieves um and ticks all ofthe boxes per se um yeah, is
really accepted by society andit's what everybody's aspiring
to be.
So when you don't fit that norm,you feel displaced and like you
(29:30):
don't belong, and then thatfuels anxiety.
So you might be anxious aboutwhether it's going to school or
work because you don't fit in oryou don't fit those criteria,
um, and then obviously, if youbecome isolated, then that can
lead to depression as well.
So I feel like they allintertwine with each other.
(29:51):
Obviously, I do see people thatjust have anxiety or do just
have depression, but there'snormally interlinks between them
.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
What do you see as the panacea for all of this?
Is there something that, if youcould wave your magic wand?
Nicola.
I'm going to give you a magicwand and you're going to wave it
.
What would you change?
What would you do with that?
Speaker 1 (30:21):
That is such a good question.
I think immediately what comesto mind is just better access to
care.
But I feel like, um, obviouslythat comes with funding and all
of those things.
Um, obviously, if I was likevery godmother then I'd get rid
(30:42):
of people's issues yeah takeaway trauma, take away all of
those things and just make it sothat everybody could cope
healthily and there wasn't anyissues.
Tick those society norm boxes?
No, I wouldn't want that really.
Yeah, that is a hard question.
I think, yeah, more access toservices, more variety in who is
(31:11):
offering those services, and Idon't feel like there's any
individualised care.
I think that's what's a bigthing that's missing.
I think, obviously, withinsystems, we have to do what
we're funded to do or what theservice is funded to do, but I
just don't feel I feel like thatindividual care is what's
missing.
(31:31):
And that's what I love aboutprivate practice is that, like I
was saying before, I get toreally think about what's going
to work for that person, how Ican work with them, pull from my
different experience and makethat tailored to them.
And it's hard because you know,as a government they can only
give so much funding.
But it's like mental healthcare plans.
(31:54):
I think there's six sessionsnow and you're like, yeah, six
sessions, but if somebody's gotcomplex issues or this has been
going on for a long time, or ifthey need more, there's no
flexibility within that.
And same, at least, with theeating, eating disorder plan.
That's much longer and peoplecan get more sessions.
(32:16):
And if I could, actually if Icould wave my magic wand, I
would make it say that mentalhealth nurses were included in
more medicare rebates as well ah, so at the moment they're not
no no, so as a credentialedmental health nurse, I can only
offer people Medicare rebates ifthey've got a chronic disease
plan, and I'm not eligible to dothat on any of the other plans
(32:41):
Interesting because, you know,we've got this.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
we're crying out for more mental health practitioners
, and here we've got thiswonderful resource of mental
health nurse that we're not, youknow, using to the fullest
potential, I guess.
But aside from that, what Iunderstand, nicola, though, is
that your private services canbe easily accessed without
referrals and no wait lists.
(33:05):
Yeah, yeah, interesting.
What do you get the most joyfrom?
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Seeing people building that relationship with
people and then seeing that,seeing that relationship grow
and also just teaching peoplenew things that they didn't know
that they could do and seeingthem doing it, seeing them
succeed.
And don't get me wrong,obviously it doesn't always go
that smoothly or it's not asmooth path to that sometimes.
But even with just beingalongside that person, with the
(33:39):
lows, the highs and the bumpsand all of that, it's just such
a privilege for me to be able todo that with somebody and it's
just yeah, it just brings me alot of joy.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
That's a beautiful thing.
I want to understand also thisidea of hope, because that's one
of the themes of our warm tablethis season, and I do want to
understand what hope means toyou personally and
professionally.
But also, how do you work withpeople during a time when they
(34:14):
feel as though they haveabsolutely no hope or very
little hope in their mentalstate?
So how do you help them rebuildthat hope, because it's just
such an important part of thehealing journey.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
But you just can't magic it up.
If only, if only you could givethat as a tablet, a hope tablet
.
Um, but how do you, how do youwork with people when they, when
they have no hope?
Speaker 1 (34:42):
I think for me personally, I hold the hope from
the beginning, like to me, likeI've worked in so many places
in so many different areas andwith you know clients that have
had multiple admissions and arelabeled that complex client and
feel like they're never going toget better or they feel like
(35:03):
they've tried a lot of things.
So I personally hold the hopefrom the beginning for the
client.
Whether they see it or not, orwhether we talk about that from
the beginning or not, I alwayshold that hope for them.
Because I always think whenpeople are presenting to you for
help, every presentation is anew time.
It doesn't matter what'shappened before, it doesn't
(35:23):
matter what they were likebefore.
At that point in time they'rewanting help, help.
So that gives me hope.
Does that make sense?
So, yeah, and so holding thatfrom the beginning.
And then, when that therapeuticrelationship builds, obviously
you get to know the person more.
You get to know what theirstrengths are, um, and where
(35:44):
they've been in the past andwhere they're at now, and then
you can reflect on that withthem and reflect on their
experiences and you know youdrop those installs of hope
along the way.
They might not realize it'shope or that sounds like a weird
thing to say, but they mightnot realize that it's hope at
(36:04):
the time, but I think it'salways in my mind and then when
they're in a place where theyfeel like they can be hopeful
because obviously what youwouldn't want it to come across
as a person's at the worstmoment in their life and you're
like, don't worry, it changesjust around the corner.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
I've seen so many people in the same situation.
They've come out of it, so youwill too.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
So yeah, it's not any conversation like that with a
client at all.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
No, you don't go in there like Pollyanna or anything
like that.
No, but it is.
It's holding that, I guess, thequiet hope inside you, knowing
that there's tools andstrategies and a different
moment in time.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
And a big actually change I feel like in the
workspace is peer supportworkers that obviously have that
lived experience and are ontheir recovery journey and have
recovered and are coming intowork with the space and can
offer that support to people aswell and, I think, working
alongside those people, becauseI think if you work in the same
(37:08):
area all the time and you'reseeing the same things, it's
easy to get pretty jaded or feellike nobody's making any change
.
But I think what we forget tothink about in the moments are
the people that we don't seecoming back when we're in
certain areas.
And then, yeah, some of thepeer workers that I've worked
with, just talking to them abouttheir experience of recovery
(37:31):
and all the people that theyknow have recovered, Like it's
eye-opening and you just think,yeah, actually it's really
positive.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
And that's a really nice thing to hear, because we
don't hear that often, I know.
No, we often hear about themental health crisis that we're
in, which there's no questionthat you know there is a mental
health crisis.
There's no question that mentalhealth is directly correlated
with many things that are goingon in society that give
(37:59):
everybody some real unease, butthere are stories of people
who've recovered and who thencan go on to support others too.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Yeah, and I think when people have that
understanding, or you movearound and you do different
things, you really actually openyour eyes to that.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
And would you say that pretty much everyone is
touched by mental health in someway?
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely, and I think, even if
you're a person that doesn'thave a history in your family or
nothing bad has ever happenedwhich I don't know I never, ever
actually met anybody in mypersonal life or my work life
that that's happened for, butmaybe those people exist it
doesn't mean to say that youknow an adverse event isn't
(38:49):
going to happen to you thatcould significantly impact the
way that you're coping.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
Can you talk me through some of that, and I
guess it's a magic question here.
This is a million dollarquestion.
What are some of the triggersfor mental health episodes to
happen?
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Loss and grief is a big one.
You know, relationship issuesor interpersonal difficulties,
um, the loss of a relationshipsometimes is a tipping point
point for people and sometimes Ithink, if things happen one
after the other and peoplearen't expecting those things or
(39:28):
they're in a vulnerable placeand then something else happens,
it can be really hard to thenkeep going and to keep on top of
that.
Um, obviously, for a lot ofpeople that I see, it's
childhood stuff or it's stuffthat's happened in their
childhood.
That's a trauma, yeah, and then, like I said, that tipping
(39:48):
point seems to be withadolescence, in that change in
hormones, the change in highschool, that transition.
I think it's a vulnerable partsof people's lives.
That's probably the best way toexplain it actually and that
makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
You know, when you're at your most vulnerable, you
let things in.
Yeah, so, coming back to hope,what brings you hope personally?
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Like the work that I do and the work that I see
happening, the people that Iwork with.
Like I work with someincredible clinicians, doctors,
nurses, psychologists, the youngpeople that I work with.
That makes me feel hope.
My personal life outside of allof that, that makes me feel
hope.
My personal life outside of allof that.
Like my family, obviously I'vementioned my mum a couple of
(40:35):
times.
She's a beacon of hope to meand she's had her own challenges
throughout her life andobviously witnessed some of
those.
And hope to me is never losingsight of the fact that things
happen in moments and it's notalways going to be that way.
(41:00):
And I say that from a place ofprivilege and not feeling
vulnerable right now.
But, yeah, just knowing thattime doesn't stand still, our
emotions don't stand still, thatkind of philosophy.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Nicola, thank you so much for joining me around the
warm table.
It's been a wonderful, I think,a wonderful conversation where
I've learned a lot and also, youknow, hopefully reassuring for
a lot of people regarding mentalhealth, regarding some of the
societal norms that are, youknow, unachievable and that are
(41:37):
fuelling some of our mentalhealth issues, and maybe we can,
you know, sort of recreate thenorm for what society has.
I think maybe that's what I'ddo with a magic wand is recreate
the norm so that every one ofus feels welcome and included in
a society where, you know,we'll have less mental health
(41:57):
and mental stress.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
Yeah.
No, thank you so much forhaving me.
It's been really good.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
Hi, I'm Kelly Riley, creator and head coach of
Females Over 45 Fitness, or FOFas we are fondly called.
Our studio is located inVictoria Park and we are also
online all across Australia.
At FOF, our members range inage from 45 through to 84 years
of age at the moment.
They're amazing examples ofhope.
(42:28):
Let's meet one of our membersnow and be inspired by her story
examples of hope.
Speaker 4 (42:36):
Let's meet one of our members now and be inspired by
her story.
Hi, my name is Jade, I'm in myearly 50s and I work as a Senior
Process Designer Administratorfor an information and data
management company.
The last fitness centre Iattended lacked energy and after
giving FOF a go I realised ithad great energy, so I decided
to join.
I train for three hours a weekover three days at FOF.
I enjoy the workouts, as themusic is loud, the atmosphere is
good and it's great to have alaugh with like-minded women.
(42:58):
There is also flexibility inthe class timetable, which is a
great bonus.
Hope for me means that I live along, happy, healthy life,
enjoying everything that comesmy way.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Thanks for joining us around the warm table.
My warm table is produced,hosted and edited by me, sonia
Nolan.
It's my way of amplifyingpositivity and curiosity in our
community.
I invite you to share thisconversation with family and
friends and follow my warm tablepodcast on Facebook, instagram
and LinkedIn.
Also, you can subscribe andfollow my Warm Table on Spotify
(43:33):
or Apple Podcasts, and maybeeven leave a review, because it
helps others to find us moreeasily.
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com